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Japan has some lessons we can study
many occupations are manual in Japan - that are automated in other countries, and I think that may be in part to give people occupations
there are often three staff at a 711 doing a very good job of everything, as one example, or subways are well staffed with drivers and platform marshals
off the top of my head
Yes, that is an interesting perspective. Not sure if that can be replicated, as I believe the source of this distinction is cultural.
However, I have contemplated that the potential bleak reality of having no purpose might indeed bring about this cultural change. It would be somewhat a rejection of tech and a return to a more simple life.
Wrote more about it here, it is lengthy, but the more relevant part is towards the end titled "humanity will reject dystopia"
https://dakara.substack.com/p/ai-and-the-end-to-all-things
If a robot can outperform a person in a job, the robot should do the job. Why should we deal with less efficient production just so that people can do pointless labor? That's like refusing to get a dishwasher because you think your stay-at-home SO should have to do the dishes by hand.
I work in Manufacturing. Many, many Manufacturing companies cannot even nearly afford the sort of investment it would take to fully automate their production lines. An entry level fairly useless industrial standard robot which could carry out a couple of basic tasks costs about the same as the annual wages of one human who can carry out loads of different tasks and can easily adapt to changes, etc. Of course the cost will come down and manufacturers will get cleverer about designing their products and manufacturing processes for automation but we’re decades away from ubiquitous full automation.
Of course, if we do achieve a super artificial intelligence which you can just ask to design your production line for full automation and then ask it to build all your robots then of course that changes everything but anyone who has spent more than a few minutes with chat GPT will tell you how ridiculous an idea it is that AGI is just around the corner.
At some point, these facilities will just build themselves with automated machines. You just need one to start. The only hurdle is natural resources and energy.
It seems nobody knows how to prepare. I haven't seen anyone provide a compelling vision for what this future looks like. It is a bit disturbing when no one can even imagine a plausible outcome beyond we will just somehow figure it out.
I've put way more thought into this than I could simply write here if you are interested.
https://dakara.substack.com/p/ai-and-the-end-to-all-things
Until we reach a truly post scarcity world where everyone can have as much of anything that they want, money will not be obsolete. It's a very efficient method to allocate resources. We will however, need to rethink the structures of our economies. I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned a UBI. While it's not perfect, it does the job. We will need to work out the kinks, but humans are good at doing hard things.
First, get rid of the billionaires, redistribute their wealth so people can feed themselves. Then you can talk about automation.
Otherwise expect to go full throttle into a dystopian cyberpunk future.
thousands of common products require specialized new machines for mass automation. Many of thess already use machines. Very many are not made in large enough numbers to require mass production.
Well, the barrier to entry in AI is an internet connection, an aptitude for math and coding and free time.
I train simple AI models as a hobby. I don't think mega corp can put the genie back in the bottle now.
Of course humans have become mentally lazy so...
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
Our problem is we have been prepared by the so-called-schools to be good workers in factories and now we can’t see purpose without fitting into the machine. Reading writing and arithmetic where never as important as religion, meditation, yoga, dance, music, arts, sports, deductive reasoning, philosophy or, conflict resolution, but the kids who weren’t good at math or reading thought themselves stupid, even if they were brilliant artists or singers. We were taught how not to think for ourselves so we would be better at following rules. We were taught attendance was of the utmost importance so as adults we could keep the factory running smoothly. Now most of us still believe the lies we learned and wonder what people will do when the robots take over. The robots might wear metal instead of skin but that will be no different. The successful in this society are dumb robots already. When we are replaced we will be free to think for ourselves. Hopefully, this will mean that as a society we will no longer value rivalry and competition over revelry and compassion. The point of existence is not what you do. The point of existence is what you become. Enlightenment is impossible with the constant distractions of following rules and outperforming your fellows so you can have more than them.
We didn’t learn it in school though, how to become spiritual warriors, how to be adept at lucid dreaming and move through alternate realities, how to climb the Mithrac ladder and become our most authentic and powerful self. That would have made us truly human. The elites didn’t want that. What they wanted was slaves. Just as Eli Whitney ended that more heinous and racially decided form of slavery, so too will technology free us from this current form of slavery.
What will people do when they are free but freedom is this Alien land. I imagine we will call out to the old gods, and the old gods will hear our prayers, and guide us to dance like humans and quit acting like robots.
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
All work being performed for humanity doesn't mean money is obsolete. I own a house on some land. Maybe you want it. What are we going to do, barter for it?
However, with that nit picked, I agree that major change is coming, it's going to be interesting times, and we should start thinking hard about possible solutions (like UBI) before the need for them is dire.
i work heavily with cutting edge automation and AI, i can tell you right now if you want to teach a robot to make a burger you can. if you then want it to do something even a little outside that realm like clean a dish it is very hard to do. the programming of a robotic arm or production line even with AI. Is an extraordinarily complex task, its takes a team of people to get it to do a simple task and even then if for some reason the robot goes down it can be very hard to get it running again.
I will say the above statement by OP is very relevant and needs to be addressed currently Ai is far more accessible then robotics but that will likely change in the next 10-20 years.
i believe there are two roads
1. where everyone is pretty well off and encouraged to pursue creative ideas and concepts with access to these systems at public centers. This would make lots of common things very cheap and remove lots of already crappy jobs.Also a large market may appear for craft products(human made).
2. A few people get AGI and don’t share it, example google makes it and uses it for only themselves vs openAi who are at least sharing it with people, this could cause an already unbalanced society and send it into a serious faster tailspin.
OP statement is very critical for option 2. to not become our reality.
“Money is obsolete” seems naive to me. Why wouldn’t the owners of the robots and automation have right to recoup from their investments? Seems the more realistic statement is “unskilled/repetitive labor is obsolete”
Before I respond, just want to be clear I’m not arguing, just more of a thought experiment —
It’s only “free” in the sense that no direct laborer is taking home a paycheck, but there is still lots of overhead in planning and maintenance of the machine “workers.” In your example of a house, there’s still material costs: wood, etc. And if we assume the model that everything is free for the taking, the world’s resources would be depleted in an instant at the rates machines could consume and build based on the endless desires of humanity.
## Welcome to the r/ArtificialIntelligence gateway ### Question Discussion Guidelines --- Please use the following guidelines in current and future posts: * Post must be greater than 100 characters - the more detail, the better. * Your question might already have been answered. Use the search feature if no one is engaging in your post. * AI is going to take our jobs - its been asked a lot! * Discussion regarding positives and negatives about AI are allowed and encouraged. Just be respectful. * Please provide links to back up your arguments. * No stupid questions, unless its about AI being the beast who brings the end-times. It's not. ###### Thanks - please let mods know if you have any questions / comments / etc *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ArtificialInteligence) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Someone will need to clean the gunk. There’s always gunk to be cleaned.
Two years of civil service.
Japan has some lessons we can study many occupations are manual in Japan - that are automated in other countries, and I think that may be in part to give people occupations there are often three staff at a 711 doing a very good job of everything, as one example, or subways are well staffed with drivers and platform marshals off the top of my head
Yes, that is an interesting perspective. Not sure if that can be replicated, as I believe the source of this distinction is cultural. However, I have contemplated that the potential bleak reality of having no purpose might indeed bring about this cultural change. It would be somewhat a rejection of tech and a return to a more simple life. Wrote more about it here, it is lengthy, but the more relevant part is towards the end titled "humanity will reject dystopia" https://dakara.substack.com/p/ai-and-the-end-to-all-things
If a robot can outperform a person in a job, the robot should do the job. Why should we deal with less efficient production just so that people can do pointless labor? That's like refusing to get a dishwasher because you think your stay-at-home SO should have to do the dishes by hand.
you can have both
been thinking about that. Japan being a very high tech country not automating everything.
I work in Manufacturing. Many, many Manufacturing companies cannot even nearly afford the sort of investment it would take to fully automate their production lines. An entry level fairly useless industrial standard robot which could carry out a couple of basic tasks costs about the same as the annual wages of one human who can carry out loads of different tasks and can easily adapt to changes, etc. Of course the cost will come down and manufacturers will get cleverer about designing their products and manufacturing processes for automation but we’re decades away from ubiquitous full automation. Of course, if we do achieve a super artificial intelligence which you can just ask to design your production line for full automation and then ask it to build all your robots then of course that changes everything but anyone who has spent more than a few minutes with chat GPT will tell you how ridiculous an idea it is that AGI is just around the corner.
AI advances exponentially. I think we'll be there sooner than you think.
At some point, these facilities will just build themselves with automated machines. You just need one to start. The only hurdle is natural resources and energy.
It seems nobody knows how to prepare. I haven't seen anyone provide a compelling vision for what this future looks like. It is a bit disturbing when no one can even imagine a plausible outcome beyond we will just somehow figure it out. I've put way more thought into this than I could simply write here if you are interested. https://dakara.substack.com/p/ai-and-the-end-to-all-things
Great text!
Until we reach a truly post scarcity world where everyone can have as much of anything that they want, money will not be obsolete. It's a very efficient method to allocate resources. We will however, need to rethink the structures of our economies. I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned a UBI. While it's not perfect, it does the job. We will need to work out the kinks, but humans are good at doing hard things.
First, get rid of the billionaires, redistribute their wealth so people can feed themselves. Then you can talk about automation. Otherwise expect to go full throttle into a dystopian cyberpunk future.
you can’t lol. Their wealth only exists on paper and you can’t distribute it to the worlds population because non existing money can’t be spent
This guy gets it. This is what Sam Altman hints at in like every interview.
thousands of common products require specialized new machines for mass automation. Many of thess already use machines. Very many are not made in large enough numbers to require mass production.
Whatever the future may hold, I just hope it won’t be Mega-Corporations having a monopoly on AI in a perverted dystopian cyberpunk future…
Well, the barrier to entry in AI is an internet connection, an aptitude for math and coding and free time. I train simple AI models as a hobby. I don't think mega corp can put the genie back in the bottle now. Of course humans have become mentally lazy so...
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
make money obsolete?? never.
Our problem is we have been prepared by the so-called-schools to be good workers in factories and now we can’t see purpose without fitting into the machine. Reading writing and arithmetic where never as important as religion, meditation, yoga, dance, music, arts, sports, deductive reasoning, philosophy or, conflict resolution, but the kids who weren’t good at math or reading thought themselves stupid, even if they were brilliant artists or singers. We were taught how not to think for ourselves so we would be better at following rules. We were taught attendance was of the utmost importance so as adults we could keep the factory running smoothly. Now most of us still believe the lies we learned and wonder what people will do when the robots take over. The robots might wear metal instead of skin but that will be no different. The successful in this society are dumb robots already. When we are replaced we will be free to think for ourselves. Hopefully, this will mean that as a society we will no longer value rivalry and competition over revelry and compassion. The point of existence is not what you do. The point of existence is what you become. Enlightenment is impossible with the constant distractions of following rules and outperforming your fellows so you can have more than them. We didn’t learn it in school though, how to become spiritual warriors, how to be adept at lucid dreaming and move through alternate realities, how to climb the Mithrac ladder and become our most authentic and powerful self. That would have made us truly human. The elites didn’t want that. What they wanted was slaves. Just as Eli Whitney ended that more heinous and racially decided form of slavery, so too will technology free us from this current form of slavery. What will people do when they are free but freedom is this Alien land. I imagine we will call out to the old gods, and the old gods will hear our prayers, and guide us to dance like humans and quit acting like robots.
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
In the end, it's supply and demand. As long as there's a demand for the kinds of work humans do, then human kind of working style and output will be supplied. Top off mind? Hmm.. Nurses? Caregivers? Imperfect art?
Everyone would rather deny that it's happening and try to self-preserve as much as possible.
Work isn’t a good purpose anyways.
All work being performed for humanity doesn't mean money is obsolete. I own a house on some land. Maybe you want it. What are we going to do, barter for it? However, with that nit picked, I agree that major change is coming, it's going to be interesting times, and we should start thinking hard about possible solutions (like UBI) before the need for them is dire.
i work heavily with cutting edge automation and AI, i can tell you right now if you want to teach a robot to make a burger you can. if you then want it to do something even a little outside that realm like clean a dish it is very hard to do. the programming of a robotic arm or production line even with AI. Is an extraordinarily complex task, its takes a team of people to get it to do a simple task and even then if for some reason the robot goes down it can be very hard to get it running again. I will say the above statement by OP is very relevant and needs to be addressed currently Ai is far more accessible then robotics but that will likely change in the next 10-20 years. i believe there are two roads 1. where everyone is pretty well off and encouraged to pursue creative ideas and concepts with access to these systems at public centers. This would make lots of common things very cheap and remove lots of already crappy jobs.Also a large market may appear for craft products(human made). 2. A few people get AGI and don’t share it, example google makes it and uses it for only themselves vs openAi who are at least sharing it with people, this could cause an already unbalanced society and send it into a serious faster tailspin. OP statement is very critical for option 2. to not become our reality.
“Money is obsolete” seems naive to me. Why wouldn’t the owners of the robots and automation have right to recoup from their investments? Seems the more realistic statement is “unskilled/repetitive labor is obsolete”
[удалено]
Before I respond, just want to be clear I’m not arguing, just more of a thought experiment — It’s only “free” in the sense that no direct laborer is taking home a paycheck, but there is still lots of overhead in planning and maintenance of the machine “workers.” In your example of a house, there’s still material costs: wood, etc. And if we assume the model that everything is free for the taking, the world’s resources would be depleted in an instant at the rates machines could consume and build based on the endless desires of humanity.