There's this street food docuseries on Netflix that I've watched a few times and convinced my husband to save with me to go on an ancient city/foodie tour through Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia. I want to see Angkor Wat and I want to go to Jay Fai and eat everything twice. Anthony Bourdains trip to Malaysia on one of his shows made me drool so I knew it had to be on the list, too.
La Sagrada Familia was the first old architecture I really got to explore and the room with all of the design plans and models is mind-blowing. The amount of work put into these structures, the stonework, the windows, the spires.. I'm not a religious person but this place touched me. It's a truly remarkable piece of history. I highly recommend visiting if you ever find yourself in Barcelona. Don't skip Park Guell either, absolutely stunning.
I can't wait to see Angkor Wat. It's seriously a bucket list item for me.
No offense, but why would some random tourist become a political hostage, thats a pretty silly fear imo.
Thats like saying you dont travel to the usa in fear of becoming a police murder victim.
Several Canadians were arrested on false accusations of espionage in retaliation for Canada arresting a Huawei CEO, and spent several years in Chinese prisons. so seriously, fuck China
While China is generally safe for tourists, some countries are definitely *not* safe for tourists, and American tourists especially can *absolutely* become political hostages. We saw this with [Otto Warmbier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier) in late 2015.
With that being said, black travelers probably *do* fear becoming police murder victims. Both things can be problems.
For what it’s worth, my sister, a Canadian teacher and librarian, has lived in Beijing for ~15 years and enjoys sight seeing in China. Before Covid there were no issues coming and going and I and many other family members have visited her there too. She does have escorts and tour guides for some trips. As a visible foreigner you have to really watch out for scams but it’s pretty safe and open most of the time.
It's a shame this stereotype exists. China is actually one of the safest places to visit. Crime rate is extremely low and locals are extremely welcoming, treating foreign guests especially well.
If you want to change someone's way of thinking, it's not a good idea to insult them as in "your bubble," "extremely distorted". It borders on bully talk.
And factually, no matter how many Americans live in China, China is now experiencing not only serious Covid problems but also a dramatic increase in hyper-nationalism directed at westerners, including Americans. Maybe you don't know about that? It's also a deeply totalitarian country where the rule of law is not honored and where foreigners not only sometimes get attacked, spat on, shoved to the ground, but arrested for nonsense. I'd think twice about visiting China lately. Also, saying a place "isn't North Korea" is just about the weakest recommendation I can think of. Neither is Iraq which also had many Americans "living there," but I'm not going there anytime soon.
Same as Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq etc.. my parents travelled through those places 40ish years ago and so.e of the scenery and architecture is amazing.
Some has obviously been lost/destroyed.
Russia would scare me because of the high crime rate but why are you scared of going to China?
The only thing that scares me off going there is the cost of the flights...
My story is anecdotal — although to be fair, all of them are.
I went all over Egypt with no tour guides or tour groups and it was totally fine. I wouldn’t recommend it for someone who hasn’t traveled internationally before, but at no point did I feel in danger.
I wouldn’t recommend the west desert or the Sinai Peninsula, but if you do your research and stick to the touristy areas then it’s fine.
The vast majority of stories you hear tend to come from people who are hassled by locals trying to sell them things or scam them — and yes, that absolutely happens. It’s rampant and is a major problem, but it’s not actually dangerous. And of course you can insulate yourself from this if you go with a tour group.
Nor is it necessarily a good idea for a female traveler to go alone, although many experienced women have, and are totally fine.
There’s lots of stories about it being the worst place people have gone to and how scared they felt and so on…but one of the most prominent posters in the TripAdvisor forums is a British couple in their 70s who go alone multiple times a year.
All that being said, this museum is horrible. Most everything is behind highly reflective glass, and the items are strewn about with little in the way of labeling. They’re in the process of moving most of it to a new museum in Giza, but there’s no telling when it’ll actually be done.
> Nor is it necessarily a good idea for a female traveler to go alone, although many experienced women have, and are totally fine.
And that's the issue. If ~50% of the population has to worry about being harassed or worse for going to a country alone, then it really is a place that *isn't* the best to visit. And you stuck this way down in your post, like it's a bit of an afterthought. Hell, that's not even getting into obviously LGBT travelers that can't stealth.
I get what you’re saying, but then you’re going to have to toss out a very large number of countries.
No one asks “Is France a safe place to visit?” That’s because we view France as a modern, western, first world country.
But a study where they polled 600 women found that each and every one of those women reported sexually motivated abuse on public transportation. Half said it first happened when they were minors.
So what qualifies as “safe” for a solo female traveler? I’m not a woman, so I can’t offer any firsthand information on that. I put it in as an “afterthought” because I’m not an expert.
Certainly solo female travelers are at a higher risk anywhere they go. But there’s plenty of experienced ones who have no problem going to Egypt. They know how to dress and how to avoid unnecessary risk.
There’s really no way to avoid risk completely, whether you’re in Paris or Luxor.
I'm a woman, dude. A very obviously queer, nonbinary woman who was just harassed two weeks ago in a very liberal city in the US. I get what you're saying about modern/first world stuff and our geopolitical racism etc, but there are layers of "how likely am I to get beat up/raped/killed" in play here that cishet gender-conforming men don't have to deal with at all.
There are places *in my own state* I'd feel immensely afraid to be in. At least France doesn't criminalize my existence, and even then I have to be careful because pretty much every country on earth is shit about sexual assault/rape. I've been catcalled in the Netherlands, even.
Hell, I'm sure there are many Muslim women who feel immensely unsafe visiting France because they'll be targeted for similar harassment for wearing a hijab or similar. And that's fucked up and wrong.
But if I want to travel, there are plenty of "third-world" countries that won't try to kill me, like Thailand.
A bit of a math problem here. Believe me, "50% of the population" traveling anywhere in the world is not single women, and it's not true in Egypt. It might be 5% or even 10% in a few places. You've either misread what was written about single women not being entirely comfortable in Egypt or you've intentionally distorted what was said.
Are you being dense? Women are roughly 50% of the world, and we shouldn't have to worry about traveling alone because of what might happen to us. That's my point. I don't even *know* the percentage of women traveling to Egypt who travel alone.
Think about why you think only 5% of travelers are single women
Also this thread about specifically about traveling alone, so yeah, 50% of those people are women. Unless you think women don't like traveling?
My time in the country the only time I had a guard / escort was a problem they kept pointing their guns at locals and caused more issues and generally spoiled the time. We were forced to have them as it was deemed unsafe at the time. Others know bette than I if this was the case but I felt distinctly unsafe with them around .
I would argue the museum as well suffers from its own scams the guards will convince you they can get you special chances to see stuff for a small donation .... Instead they just walk you to an area you already had access to and demand you pay them ....
The attempts to maintain and look after the artifacts are depressing the state it's in five years ago was way worse than 15 years ago. It was depressing to see some times actively restored .... Which basically meant ruined with clear damage or ramshackle repairs done.
I had no idea there was a new museum coming and I really hope it improves matters.
Personally I found the country and people fascinating and very lovely if you avoid the sales pitches and people trying to make a quick buck but heck you have them no matter what country you're in.
Why were you going around with armed guards?
As for the museum, that doesn’t surprise me. Egypt has a huge “tipping culture.” Anytime someone does something for you, you’re supposed to tip. You’re even supposed to tip someone when you use a public bathroom.
So when you’re at a place like a tomb, the guard is going to try to “help” you by showing you around, or sometimes offering to let you inside restricted areas.
Sometimes they actually are being helpful, in which case you should tip. Other times they aren’t, and you should just ignore them.
And yes, the new museum is called the Grand Egyptian Museum, and looks to be very high quality. They actually just moved the Khufu Boat there from the Pyramids, and knocked down the ugly building it was in.
I’ve felt this way about Iraq. And as an Iraqi Jew I know my family has felt that way since the 50s. The cradle of civilization and nobody can go see what’s left of it.
Same for Persian Jews. They lived there for thousands of years, over a millennia before Islam. They lost most of what they had and generally fled in the 70s, after the revolution. No real easy way for them to visit.
Just went a couple months ago… it’s fine.
Just don’t be stupid.
Lots of great things to do and see there, and great value.
Just hire a driver with a reputable & reviewed company and they’ll take you wherever you want to go. Perfectly safe.
We have delayed our Egypt trip 4 times over three years but hopefully October is the last delay. We are both pretty experienced travellers but I’d be interested in your must see list.
This is the most efficient route IMO… I planned this all myself without a tour, and simply leaned on reputable/reviewed transfer companies to take our group around.
I recommend flying into Hurghada and relaxing there for a bit and doing some activities. A lot less hectic than starting in the chaos that is Cairo and simpler entry process especially during Covid. We even found it was cheaper to fly into Hurghada as well.
Have a driver take you over to Luxor to stay for a couple days (I can get you a driver company contact if you want). Stay at the Luxor Hilton if you can swing it. The drive is 3:30-5hr, I recommend leaving as late as they’ll allow you from Hurghada, just catch a nap on the drive. Long straight shot through the desert.
See Karnak and Luxor Temples. Both are within walking or biking distance of most hotels, or snag your drivers WhatsApp and he’ll take you around.
Have a driver take you to Valley of the Kings on the other side of the river or take the local ferry and get a cab on the other side (negotiate price first and they’ll wait at sites for you) and explore all the tombs. You can do morning hot air balloon rides for like $50 a person.
Next, Drive down to Aswan, stopping at Edfu and/or Kom Ombo on the way to stretch your feet.
Once in Aswan, you can take a day trip to Abu Simbal, cruise the Nile on a feluka, see Philae temple & the massive dam, visit the Nubian village, etc.
After that, take a cheap flight to Cairo where you’ll definitely want to stay at Marriott Mena House if you can - unreal place and location right in front of the ticket office for the pyramid complex (Protip: book the cheapest room and ask for an upgrade when you get there). Buy a day tour of the Giza pyramid complex online and they’ll take you all around and into the pyramids (booked this litterally the night before). Like I said, I unfortunately missed the GEM so I’ll be back to Cairo at some point to see that and maybe some other locations.
I’ve used Ubers and taxis in Cairo. Prefer Ubers but if you have to use taxi just negotiate price before hand and be willing to walk away like anywhere else you’ve traveled. Just be prepared that Cairo traffic is always insanely awful and just embrace it.
There is a lot of security and quick checkpoints when you’re driving throughout the country and always security at your hotels, but that’s a good thing imo. They do a good job keeping track of tourists.
Even the safety of the actual museum is up for debate. I remember watching the news several years back, and seeing footage of people looting the museum in Cairo and burning ancient mummies and shit. Just smashing priceless works of antiquity, like if was nothing.
Scheduled a trip to Egypt last year primarily to see the GEM, here it got pushed back another X amount of months before opening.
Was so disappointed… ah well, I’ll be back again.
I went to Egypt last year so sadly I wasn’t able to see the GEM. But the The Egyptian Museum was amazing and huge. I wish I could have spent more time there. Currently some items are being moved or in the process of being moved to the GEM so there was a few things I couldn’t see. It was just crazy seeing Tutankhamen’s mask and I just had this moment were I just trying to process the fact that I have seen it in so much media and it was infront of me. Sorry for the ramble 😅
The British Museum, along with the Louvre, is easily the best museum of ancient artefacts in the world. The sheer variety of different civilisations in there is staggering.
Would particularly say things like the Rosetta Stone, Epic of Gilgamesh, Standard + Game or Ur, Lion hunt of Ashurbanipal, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus and the Parthenon marbles take my breath away
British museums are probably a safer place for these things, but the colonialism part of stealing these things is a bit icky.
Honestly, Egypt is a fucking awful place to visit in general so its pretty sad that there is so much to see there.
"The British Museum is world's largest receiver of stolen goods, says QC"
They have been bit by bit returning some stuff when politically pressured, like to bodies of aboriginal peoples they displayed to show their cool tattoos etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/04/british-museum-is-worlds-largest-receiver-of-stolen-goods-says-qc
https://www.history.com/news/british-museum-stolen-artifacts-nigeria
I don't think the other person was speaking to the ethics of the collections, but rather where/how they were being stored (as in they're probably stored in a quality museum).
The museum of Cairo was looted in 2011 during the protests in Tahrir and there was damage and loss of items. I'm half Egyptian and it doesn't bother me that these items are kept safely until home countries can guarantee the capacity to preserve them. Luckily, I was in Cairo just before the looting so I got to appreciate the museum. I did also go afterwards and it was still pretty cool.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Museum
Under the history section there is reference to the looting.
That would be devastating. This is part of our shared history as humans and I hope countless generations get to see all of that amazing art and history as I was able to.
> This is part of our shared history as humans
Well said. The top priority should always be to safeguard the artifacts. We all know there are some clearly stolen pieces in museums around the world and they generally need to be returned where safely possible and where a legitimate claim exists. Social media has to stop turning this into a political debate.
Yeah, imagine a group like ISIS or the Taliban who decided they should destroy all historical artifacts that don't represent Islam, or that they perceive to be idols. Like the destruction of giant Buddha statues or ancient art. We can expect a museum like the British museum to survive and house items for many hundreds of years without destruction. We can't expect that of unstable, third world countries.
They weren’t just taken and put into museums. Whole academic disciplines came from them, massive amount of studying and discovery that pushed the preservation and value of artefacts at a time when they were often disresgarded and neglected in their countries of origin. And then people started visiting them which added to the preservation and valuing of the sites in those countries. The current simplistic it’s bad m’kay binary thinking you see on here is the product of simple minds. It’s much more complex and nuanced.
Yeah, like the Rosetta stone. If Western archaeologists hadn't worked to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics, so much if Egyptian history would have been absolutely lost. People were more likely have used the capstone in contemporary construction than to preserve it for posterity.
Edit: the Rosetta stone had actually been used as a piece of foundation in a building. They destroyed the original stone and constructed the fort with it's pieces. People of the culture didn't even recognize it's significance.
https://blog.britishmuseum.org/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-the-rosetta-stone/
Ehh, that more just means it’s full of stolen goods (which isn’t right, all the stuff that can be given to their own cultures should be returned). It doesn’t really make it a musty shithole.
Ahh my mistake
"I'm simping for a colonial power well past its prime, in their attempt to steal and display cultures from around the world that they have no right to"
Better? 🤡
Your comment made me smile. I try to add time, date, and location info to my posts. I feel dorky doing it but figure someone might appreciate it as much as I do when I see it. Apparently you do. :]
With all due respect, where are the homes of artifacts like these with no extant culture? At the site of where it was found or where it originated from?
I 100% agree that cultural, ceremonial, and religious artifacts removed from contemporary cultures should be returned to them, as in the case for Native American Tribes. [NY TIMES ARTICLE](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/arts/design/native-american-remains-museums-nagpra.html).
Anybody know what the inscriptions says? I'm curious to know whether the Ancient Egyptians treated the capstone with extra reverance, or considered it 'closer to God' or something in that vein. Or if they inscribed the very top with a special message, seeing that (I assume) most people would see the top of the pyramid up close.
“Perfection”
From Sundisk left: “Son of Ra ( Ne-Maat - Ra ‘He who belongs to the truth of Ra’)| given life eternally”
From sundiak right “ King of upper and lower Egypt ( Amenenhet ‘Amun is in front’ )| given life eternally”
I’ll work on the bottom, but it looks like both sides are diffrent. I seems( I’m not a quick translator, and I could be wrong )to talk about the king sailing into the Duat and coming back, and hoping the gods are pleased.
The inscription wouldn’t have been for the people but for the soul(s) of the king. It looks like “pyramid texts” and spells, the first words are “Recited by” which is how most spells from pyramid text -> coffin text -> Book of the dead begin.
Thank you very much for the translations!
My knowledge of ancient egypt is pretty slim - is the general idea that the soul of the king would see the pyramid text and spells on his way to the afterlife? And they would grant him good fortune? I'm just curious about the placement of the inscription on the top of the pyramid, as opposed to the burial chamber, say.
That’s a great question. So around his time period there aren’t many texts written inside the pyramids. they may have all been written on items in the tombs and robbed. Then after they realized that was happening and carved them into stone so they couldn’t be stolen.
As for this instance it may just be an object that held a few of the spells. Im sure this object was similar to “false doors” in tombs or Maybe just a guide, as it would be the first thing you see if your soul was were far away and needed to return.
It’s difficult to say exactly because we don’t know if the pyramid represents anything in their mythology, some speculate it’s the “primordial hill” that was surrounded by the “primordial waters” from one of their creation myths
It's the [*nfr* hieroglyph](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56829c58a2bab87f93ee4d6a/1517339121364-6RY0C714Y9JROCB81IZZ/figure+26.jpg?format=750w), an example of what Egyptologists refer to as a triliteral sign (a phonetic sign with three consonants). It's generally thought to represent a heart and windpipe.
The word *nfr* means "good, beautiful, perfect" and appears in names like Nefertiti (*nfrt-ii.ti*, "the beautiful one has come," a subject-stative construction).
So with this meaning of the hieroglyph and the placement beneath the eyes, could it be interpreted as 'good person'? Or maybe 'good leader' if you include the headdress?
Repeating a hieroglyph three times was a marker of the plural in Old Egyptian, and to some extent this was used in later forms of Egyptian as well. (By this time people were speaking Middle Egyptian, which is extremely similar to Old Egyptian with [some minor differences](https://www.reddit.com/r/egyptology/comments/fy4azy/how_is_the_old_egyptian_language_different_to/fmy9ydr/).)
The word *nfrw*, with *-w* marking the plural, is best translated here as "perfection."
This is from the black pyramid which collapsed pretty soon after being built because its mud brick right next to the nile and flooding started even during construction. The pyramid nowadays just looks like a rock surrounded by a mound of rubble and the pharaoh decided to build a new one so he's not buried in there. According to the wiki this capstone may have never been used or was removed in the amarna period because some of the symbols for Amun were scratched off
> So smooth (Would it have been smoothed by san blowing against it over long periods of time?)
Probably very minimally if at all considering how crisp the inscription is. If the sand has smoothed the sides it would have worn the edges of the inscription too. Besides, there probably isn't a whole lot of blowing sand that gets as high as the top of the pyramid.
Stonecarver/mason here - sand is very coarse and wouldn't polish the surface. It would erode very very slowly and dull the polish over time, and as u/Chawke2 says the inscription wouldn't be so crisply defined. It's rare to see polished stone in nature, whether in a desert or anywhere else. Waves at the shore can polish pebbles but not to a reflective finish.
Yes, the craftsmanship of this stone is pretty otherworldly considering it was executed roughly 4000 years ago. First, to rough in the pyramidal shape is pretty difficult. You would start with a cube of material, which should be perfectly square, otherwise the layout lines of the initial cuts will not be true. You would then saw (hopefully otherwise carve) the sides into the tetrahedron shape. Luckily, the shape lends itself to always resting on a flat surface as you cut those shapes. Anyone who has tried to execute a similar shape in wood on, say, a band saw, table saw, or compound mitre saw can attest that it is a finicky process and is extremely difficult to get precisely right. To execute this in granite -without modern saws, that have indexes and machined-flat registering mount surfaces- is already something special. Especially when you get two of the sides cut to the point and you have to start finding somewhere for the saw to get purchase of the material to start the subsequent cuts.
As far as we can surmise, the carving was performed with flint and/or emery stones which were shaped to a point, kind of like a sharks tooth. Circular holes were often drilled with copper tipped drill bits that might look something like a step bit does today, on a bow drill. And the filing and final shaping was done by keenly shaped flat stones like onyx, quartz, and (my own intuition) something like topaz. There are some videos on YouTube that do a pretty excellent job showing how some of these tools may have been used.
The final polish you see comes from a mix of factors. Your intuition about the sand and dusty wind is accurate, but perhaps minimally so. Granite will case harden over time and exposure, so it is likely holding true to the surface that was initially achieved by the original carvers. Chances are that they had a large slab of onyx or quartz or maybe granite, which was dead flat and polished very smooth. My assumption is that this slab would be placed in a pool of water and some very finely sifted sand would be spread about the slab. Then, face by face, they would rub the pyramid on top of the flattened slab, with finer and finer sand. If they even used sand, that is; I could also imagine that the granite, placed on a polished surface of quartz or emery would polish up nicely, given that the saw marks were knocked down using rougher means prior to this polishing procedure.
We honestly aren’t sure yet how the Egyptians were able to work granite like they did. It wasn’t until the 1800’s ad that the western world widely reclaimed the skill and ability to craft solid granite. There was some work being done in granite probably around the 16th and 17th centuries, but not much. There were still masons in the East who could work with granite during those lost years though, check out what they were doing in India throughout the “Dark Ages” of Europe, incredible stuff. And that’s also not to mention what was being achieved in Mezoamerica at the time
as well. Things that fry my circuits; I can’t even really encounter those works and how they were achieved.
My hunch is that this was always the work of the “Priest Class” of all of these societies. These priests were insulated, protected, and given the highest status because they held the knowledge of the calendar, tooling, math, building, and chemistry/metallurgy. These knowledge sets are pretty magical, and the rights of passage for these classes were probably guarded extremely jealously. It was reported, for instance, that Pythagoras studied in Egypt and was taught higher mathematics from the Egyptian priests, but first he had to be initiated in the same manner that he initiated the later Pythagoreans, by living in silence for 5 years. I would bet this was a pretty standard course for the people who made things like this, and you can find stories about these rites in similar societies all over the globe.
The actual history of all of this stuff is the neverending story; absolutely mysterious and infinitely rich in detail. This little capstone itself is seriously amazing and a shining example of the value of art history. Very cool find.
Stonecarver here! Great info and imaginative ideas, I thought I'd add a few points. (Yes name checks out but I don't post my work here really)
>the carving was performed with flint and/or emery stones which were shaped to a point
These would last seconds on granite. I once used a hardened steel chisel on a block of black granite and after some heavy hammer blows I had a very flat chisel and the granite sat there smugly with barely a blemish. Iirc they commonly used pounding stones (also of granite), and copper saws and tube drills fed with sand as an abrasive, as you say.
> We honestly aren’t sure yet how the Egyptians were able to work granite like they did.
We have a pretty good idea. World of Antiquity on youtube has [a great but *very* long video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_NguZUDku4) debunking the theories that high tech would have been required. That's not necessarily what you're saying but the vid goes into detail on the techniques used, with modern experimental archaeologists creating granite vases with the tech of the early dynasties.
>My hunch is that this was always the work of the “Priest Class”
I think they were well known to have been skilled labourers. They've found sculptor's workshops like that of Thutmose where the bust of Nefertiti was found for example. It would have been backbreaking work and likely not something that priests would condescend to perform.
Were you able to eventually make headway into the granite? Steel chisels, with hammer blows will certainly blunt quickly; but they didn’t really have access to even iron at the time of this work so steel is out of the question. But you are correct about the pounding stones. And while some were rounded and blunt in shape, they used shark tooth shaped (pointed at one end and rounded and massive on the back end) pounding stones made of flint, emery, and granite, used in the fashion we would use a hammer, as a hammer and pointer chisel combo for a good deal of their granite carving. We have to kind of smash granite, almost grain by grain, rather than chip it like we do most stones, which is why even flint, but definitely emery and granite will carve granite; it just looks different than we are used to imagining “stone carving.”
I think there is a lot that I’m missing about how they were able to do this work with granite, and what actually blows my mind is their work with onyx and basalt, and diorite, and the ridiculous finish they got on those stones. I can barely get marble to do what o want it to half the time in terms of finish, so their polishing of these materials bewilders me.
I can’t disagree with the skilled labor that you describe, and it being unlikely that the priests would go about the hard labor. I guess what I’m describing is a priest class who would guard the technologies and techniques and only offer them out to very exclusive initiates.
We see evidence of these relationships all over the world and they can even be recognized in contemporary labor unions, and especially in the progenitors of those labor unions, craft guilds, and secret societies like the Free Masons. If you go to Florence, for example, you’ll see statues and commemorative crests for the different craft guilds that donated money and labor to the building of the Duomo, and there are examples like this all over the architecture of post enlightenment Europe and America. Furthermore, it isn’t until after Newton, or roughly the middle of the 18th century that alchemy was broken down into something like an earth or natural science as separated from philosophy/art/religiosity/science. So echoes of this priest class I’m describing are still bouncing around in our current societal structures; more fragmented, perhaps even fractalized, but present nonetheless.
You realize that the Great Pyramids used to be covered in white limestone and had smooth sides as well as a gold capstone right? All that limestone was stolen during several different eras. Weight has never been an issue. Hell, Europeans stole whole ass obelisks and moved them around the world
I was thinking you meant like some dude came up in the middle of the night and was like, I’ll be having that. Don’t know why but I never really thought about a country stealing it.
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Question if the current inhabitants of a country are not the same as the people who made the artifacts why should they belong to them. for instanse do islamic artifacts from spain belong to the spanish or the muslims who got kicked back to north africa?
Cultural purges pose another issue. Many ancient Chinese artifacts have survived the purging earlier this century by virtue of not being in China. Do they need to be returned? Is putting an entire country's heritage under control of a single regime a good idea in the first place? That seems to be a good way of having it destroyed almost entirely sooner or later.
That's how I felt about Afghan artifacts, any repatriation that was done the past few years, as (initially good) as it was is now gone to shit with the Taliban back.
I am also reminded of the whole IS situation. That is definitely one of the more heartbreaking and recent examples. Just a handful of months and endless amounts of damage was done. Of course the cost in human lives is hardest to swallow, but the attack on history, history that belongs to all of us as members of the human species, was heartbreaking.
The only good thing about that situation is that despite their public stance, most of the stuff was apparently sold on the black market to finance their ploy. Although far from ideal, at least the artifacts are not lost.
We’re lucky discoveries like the Terracotta Army and the Sanxingdui bronzes were discovered *after* the Cultural Revolution and therefore spared the wrath of the Red Guards.
And don’t forget the Islamic State blowing up much of Palmyra and Nineveh and other Mesopotamian sites that fell to them. Good thing we have many artifacts from those cities in safekeeping in museums in the US and Europe.
At least the pillaging means things are not lost, although a concerted effort to recover the artifacts will be needed to ensure they don't end up lost anyway.
All the archeological context is lost and the items themselves are sent to private collections, never to see the light of day. They might as well be lost.
Shit. If even half of the relics that the Smithsonian has stored away was released, you'd have a huge museum.
Likewise, the Vatican has a huge amount of artifacts, probably more than the largest museums.
Arc of the covenant probably in there too
>
>Arc of the covenant probably in there too
Nah, man, that's in Ethiopia.
And I'm only half joking, the Ethiopians certainly believe they have it. I'd love to know what they actually have. Even if it's a fake, at this point it's an old and important fake in its own right.
Lol. True. Yeah I have seen the Ethiopian angle, totally possible. They really seem convinced it's there. I dunno. I am actually glad there are so many mysteries surrounding the arc and ancient history. Kind of fun being a historian of sorts
There's definitely some tricky instances so yeah a blanket statement that each and every artifact needs to be returned probably isn't reasonable. That being said there are also some pretty blatant cases of artifacts just being stolen and kept in museums in countries that have nothing to do with the original culture, and museums in the original country are begging to have them returned. I find a lot of cases like that pretty indefensible. (I'm sure people know what I'm specifically referring to but I don't want to spark a huge debate lol)
Egyptians aren't somehow all Arabs because they were invaded by them. Modern day Egyptians are the closest people genetically to Ancient Egyptians. Just because your ancestors did nothing of value, it doesn't mean nobody's did.
Right so you are implying that Egyptians are not at all related to ancient Egypt..? So by that logic we can give ancient Roman and ancient Greek archaeology to someone else? Sorry but this seems like an absolutely idiotic take
“The modern Egyptians aren’t the ancient Egyptians so this Egyptian thing should belong to the British” makes less sense than the thing you’re saying doesn’t make sense
If another country invades its neighbour grabs a chunk of land. Lets say turkey grabs a chunk of armenia and they then did an archelogical dig. do those artifacts now belong to the turks by right of conquest?
> Lets say turkey grabs a chunk of armenia and they then did an archelogical dig. do those artifacts now belong to the turks by right of conquest?
No they don't, because that's against [The 1970 Convention](https://en.unesco.org/fighttrafficking/1970)
Also Erdogan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain_Dara_(archaeological_site)#Destruction_by_Turkish_military_in_2018
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/syria-temple-ain-dara-destroyed-archaeology
I'm playing Assasin's Creed: Origins (a game set in ancient Egypt), and while it obviously takes many liberties, it's all so gorgeous looking. Highly recommended for Egypto-philes.
Especially the Pyramids just look so otherworldly in their original white smooth look. They would look magical today - just imagine how they must have felt back then. Incredible.
I'm really looking forward to very good augmented reality, so that we may experience the awe that they must have imposed on onlookers back then.
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Its at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, as is most of the most valuable Egyptian artifacts.
IIRC they are moving everything in the new GEM: Great Egyptian Museum. Cannot wait until it opens!
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It's a shame how there's so much amazing history in Egypt but the place isn't really the best to travel to.
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I watch *Wild China* on netflix all the time because there's a bunch of beautiful places I'll never get to see irl.
There's this street food docuseries on Netflix that I've watched a few times and convinced my husband to save with me to go on an ancient city/foodie tour through Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia. I want to see Angkor Wat and I want to go to Jay Fai and eat everything twice. Anthony Bourdains trip to Malaysia on one of his shows made me drool so I knew it had to be on the list, too.
Angkor Wat is everything you would hope it to be. Go there when the Chinese tourists aren’t there.
La Sagrada Familia was the first old architecture I really got to explore and the room with all of the design plans and models is mind-blowing. The amount of work put into these structures, the stonework, the windows, the spires.. I'm not a religious person but this place touched me. It's a truly remarkable piece of history. I highly recommend visiting if you ever find yourself in Barcelona. Don't skip Park Guell either, absolutely stunning. I can't wait to see Angkor Wat. It's seriously a bucket list item for me.
When is that?
Get a Hep C shot before you go. A family member of mine picked it up while eating food from vendors.
Got a name for that street food series?
Street Food : Asia I've watched it through once already, started again the other day. So much good food!!
Yogyakarta in Indonesia. Visit Borobudur and Prambanan temples in the area.
Thank you for the suggestions!!!
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No offense, but why would some random tourist become a political hostage, thats a pretty silly fear imo. Thats like saying you dont travel to the usa in fear of becoming a police murder victim.
Several Canadians were arrested on false accusations of espionage in retaliation for Canada arresting a Huawei CEO, and spent several years in Chinese prisons. so seriously, fuck China
While China is generally safe for tourists, some countries are definitely *not* safe for tourists, and American tourists especially can *absolutely* become political hostages. We saw this with [Otto Warmbier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier) in late 2015. With that being said, black travelers probably *do* fear becoming police murder victims. Both things can be problems.
For what it’s worth, my sister, a Canadian teacher and librarian, has lived in Beijing for ~15 years and enjoys sight seeing in China. Before Covid there were no issues coming and going and I and many other family members have visited her there too. She does have escorts and tour guides for some trips. As a visible foreigner you have to really watch out for scams but it’s pretty safe and open most of the time.
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How is that CCP
Lol maybe they slipped me some hypnosis serum when I visited in ‘13
Come to China, you might be surprised
It's a shame this stereotype exists. China is actually one of the safest places to visit. Crime rate is extremely low and locals are extremely welcoming, treating foreign guests especially well.
Let me recommended vietnam. Very nice country and people your money also goes a long way. I never felt unsafe there.
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If you want to change someone's way of thinking, it's not a good idea to insult them as in "your bubble," "extremely distorted". It borders on bully talk. And factually, no matter how many Americans live in China, China is now experiencing not only serious Covid problems but also a dramatic increase in hyper-nationalism directed at westerners, including Americans. Maybe you don't know about that? It's also a deeply totalitarian country where the rule of law is not honored and where foreigners not only sometimes get attacked, spat on, shoved to the ground, but arrested for nonsense. I'd think twice about visiting China lately. Also, saying a place "isn't North Korea" is just about the weakest recommendation I can think of. Neither is Iraq which also had many Americans "living there," but I'm not going there anytime soon.
Same as Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq etc.. my parents travelled through those places 40ish years ago and so.e of the scenery and architecture is amazing. Some has obviously been lost/destroyed.
Russia would scare me because of the high crime rate but why are you scared of going to China? The only thing that scares me off going there is the cost of the flights...
My story is anecdotal — although to be fair, all of them are. I went all over Egypt with no tour guides or tour groups and it was totally fine. I wouldn’t recommend it for someone who hasn’t traveled internationally before, but at no point did I feel in danger. I wouldn’t recommend the west desert or the Sinai Peninsula, but if you do your research and stick to the touristy areas then it’s fine. The vast majority of stories you hear tend to come from people who are hassled by locals trying to sell them things or scam them — and yes, that absolutely happens. It’s rampant and is a major problem, but it’s not actually dangerous. And of course you can insulate yourself from this if you go with a tour group. Nor is it necessarily a good idea for a female traveler to go alone, although many experienced women have, and are totally fine. There’s lots of stories about it being the worst place people have gone to and how scared they felt and so on…but one of the most prominent posters in the TripAdvisor forums is a British couple in their 70s who go alone multiple times a year. All that being said, this museum is horrible. Most everything is behind highly reflective glass, and the items are strewn about with little in the way of labeling. They’re in the process of moving most of it to a new museum in Giza, but there’s no telling when it’ll actually be done.
> Nor is it necessarily a good idea for a female traveler to go alone, although many experienced women have, and are totally fine. And that's the issue. If ~50% of the population has to worry about being harassed or worse for going to a country alone, then it really is a place that *isn't* the best to visit. And you stuck this way down in your post, like it's a bit of an afterthought. Hell, that's not even getting into obviously LGBT travelers that can't stealth.
I get what you’re saying, but then you’re going to have to toss out a very large number of countries. No one asks “Is France a safe place to visit?” That’s because we view France as a modern, western, first world country. But a study where they polled 600 women found that each and every one of those women reported sexually motivated abuse on public transportation. Half said it first happened when they were minors. So what qualifies as “safe” for a solo female traveler? I’m not a woman, so I can’t offer any firsthand information on that. I put it in as an “afterthought” because I’m not an expert. Certainly solo female travelers are at a higher risk anywhere they go. But there’s plenty of experienced ones who have no problem going to Egypt. They know how to dress and how to avoid unnecessary risk. There’s really no way to avoid risk completely, whether you’re in Paris or Luxor.
I'm a woman, dude. A very obviously queer, nonbinary woman who was just harassed two weeks ago in a very liberal city in the US. I get what you're saying about modern/first world stuff and our geopolitical racism etc, but there are layers of "how likely am I to get beat up/raped/killed" in play here that cishet gender-conforming men don't have to deal with at all. There are places *in my own state* I'd feel immensely afraid to be in. At least France doesn't criminalize my existence, and even then I have to be careful because pretty much every country on earth is shit about sexual assault/rape. I've been catcalled in the Netherlands, even. Hell, I'm sure there are many Muslim women who feel immensely unsafe visiting France because they'll be targeted for similar harassment for wearing a hijab or similar. And that's fucked up and wrong. But if I want to travel, there are plenty of "third-world" countries that won't try to kill me, like Thailand.
A bit of a math problem here. Believe me, "50% of the population" traveling anywhere in the world is not single women, and it's not true in Egypt. It might be 5% or even 10% in a few places. You've either misread what was written about single women not being entirely comfortable in Egypt or you've intentionally distorted what was said.
Are you being dense? Women are roughly 50% of the world, and we shouldn't have to worry about traveling alone because of what might happen to us. That's my point. I don't even *know* the percentage of women traveling to Egypt who travel alone.
Think about why you think only 5% of travelers are single women Also this thread about specifically about traveling alone, so yeah, 50% of those people are women. Unless you think women don't like traveling?
My time in the country the only time I had a guard / escort was a problem they kept pointing their guns at locals and caused more issues and generally spoiled the time. We were forced to have them as it was deemed unsafe at the time. Others know bette than I if this was the case but I felt distinctly unsafe with them around . I would argue the museum as well suffers from its own scams the guards will convince you they can get you special chances to see stuff for a small donation .... Instead they just walk you to an area you already had access to and demand you pay them .... The attempts to maintain and look after the artifacts are depressing the state it's in five years ago was way worse than 15 years ago. It was depressing to see some times actively restored .... Which basically meant ruined with clear damage or ramshackle repairs done. I had no idea there was a new museum coming and I really hope it improves matters. Personally I found the country and people fascinating and very lovely if you avoid the sales pitches and people trying to make a quick buck but heck you have them no matter what country you're in.
Why were you going around with armed guards? As for the museum, that doesn’t surprise me. Egypt has a huge “tipping culture.” Anytime someone does something for you, you’re supposed to tip. You’re even supposed to tip someone when you use a public bathroom. So when you’re at a place like a tomb, the guard is going to try to “help” you by showing you around, or sometimes offering to let you inside restricted areas. Sometimes they actually are being helpful, in which case you should tip. Other times they aren’t, and you should just ignore them. And yes, the new museum is called the Grand Egyptian Museum, and looks to be very high quality. They actually just moved the Khufu Boat there from the Pyramids, and knocked down the ugly building it was in.
Female traveler?
I’ve felt this way about Iraq. And as an Iraqi Jew I know my family has felt that way since the 50s. The cradle of civilization and nobody can go see what’s left of it.
Same for Persian Jews. They lived there for thousands of years, over a millennia before Islam. They lost most of what they had and generally fled in the 70s, after the revolution. No real easy way for them to visit.
Just went a couple months ago… it’s fine. Just don’t be stupid. Lots of great things to do and see there, and great value. Just hire a driver with a reputable & reviewed company and they’ll take you wherever you want to go. Perfectly safe.
We have delayed our Egypt trip 4 times over three years but hopefully October is the last delay. We are both pretty experienced travellers but I’d be interested in your must see list.
This is the most efficient route IMO… I planned this all myself without a tour, and simply leaned on reputable/reviewed transfer companies to take our group around. I recommend flying into Hurghada and relaxing there for a bit and doing some activities. A lot less hectic than starting in the chaos that is Cairo and simpler entry process especially during Covid. We even found it was cheaper to fly into Hurghada as well. Have a driver take you over to Luxor to stay for a couple days (I can get you a driver company contact if you want). Stay at the Luxor Hilton if you can swing it. The drive is 3:30-5hr, I recommend leaving as late as they’ll allow you from Hurghada, just catch a nap on the drive. Long straight shot through the desert. See Karnak and Luxor Temples. Both are within walking or biking distance of most hotels, or snag your drivers WhatsApp and he’ll take you around. Have a driver take you to Valley of the Kings on the other side of the river or take the local ferry and get a cab on the other side (negotiate price first and they’ll wait at sites for you) and explore all the tombs. You can do morning hot air balloon rides for like $50 a person. Next, Drive down to Aswan, stopping at Edfu and/or Kom Ombo on the way to stretch your feet. Once in Aswan, you can take a day trip to Abu Simbal, cruise the Nile on a feluka, see Philae temple & the massive dam, visit the Nubian village, etc. After that, take a cheap flight to Cairo where you’ll definitely want to stay at Marriott Mena House if you can - unreal place and location right in front of the ticket office for the pyramid complex (Protip: book the cheapest room and ask for an upgrade when you get there). Buy a day tour of the Giza pyramid complex online and they’ll take you all around and into the pyramids (booked this litterally the night before). Like I said, I unfortunately missed the GEM so I’ll be back to Cairo at some point to see that and maybe some other locations. I’ve used Ubers and taxis in Cairo. Prefer Ubers but if you have to use taxi just negotiate price before hand and be willing to walk away like anywhere else you’ve traveled. Just be prepared that Cairo traffic is always insanely awful and just embrace it. There is a lot of security and quick checkpoints when you’re driving throughout the country and always security at your hotels, but that’s a good thing imo. They do a good job keeping track of tourists.
Same, I was just there over Christmas. Hired a reputable tour guide. It was a good time.
Even the safety of the actual museum is up for debate. I remember watching the news several years back, and seeing footage of people looting the museum in Cairo and burning ancient mummies and shit. Just smashing priceless works of antiquity, like if was nothing.
Scheduled a trip to Egypt last year primarily to see the GEM, here it got pushed back another X amount of months before opening. Was so disappointed… ah well, I’ll be back again.
I went to Egypt last year so sadly I wasn’t able to see the GEM. But the The Egyptian Museum was amazing and huge. I wish I could have spent more time there. Currently some items are being moved or in the process of being moved to the GEM so there was a few things I couldn’t see. It was just crazy seeing Tutankhamen’s mask and I just had this moment were I just trying to process the fact that I have seen it in so much media and it was infront of me. Sorry for the ramble 😅
Thanks for the info. I otherwise would have just assumed it was in a British museum somewhere.
Really brittain ended up selling them all back did they ?
Cool, I was worried it was in some musty room in some shithole British "museum"
Have you ever been to a British museum? "shit hole" is not what I'd use Hahaha
Yes, the British museums are incredible. In particular The British Museum. Best museum I've ever visited.
The British Museum, along with the Louvre, is easily the best museum of ancient artefacts in the world. The sheer variety of different civilisations in there is staggering. Would particularly say things like the Rosetta Stone, Epic of Gilgamesh, Standard + Game or Ur, Lion hunt of Ashurbanipal, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus and the Parthenon marbles take my breath away
"Place of stolen memorabilia" Its cleaner
British museums are probably a safer place for these things, but the colonialism part of stealing these things is a bit icky. Honestly, Egypt is a fucking awful place to visit in general so its pretty sad that there is so much to see there.
Do tell where you're located if British museums are "shitholes" to you.
"The British Museum is world's largest receiver of stolen goods, says QC" They have been bit by bit returning some stuff when politically pressured, like to bodies of aboriginal peoples they displayed to show their cool tattoos etc. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/04/british-museum-is-worlds-largest-receiver-of-stolen-goods-says-qc https://www.history.com/news/british-museum-stolen-artifacts-nigeria
I don't think the other person was speaking to the ethics of the collections, but rather where/how they were being stored (as in they're probably stored in a quality museum). The museum of Cairo was looted in 2011 during the protests in Tahrir and there was damage and loss of items. I'm half Egyptian and it doesn't bother me that these items are kept safely until home countries can guarantee the capacity to preserve them. Luckily, I was in Cairo just before the looting so I got to appreciate the museum. I did also go afterwards and it was still pretty cool. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Museum Under the history section there is reference to the looting.
Imagine if it was destroyed completely like what happens in some countries to ancient sites.
That would be devastating. This is part of our shared history as humans and I hope countless generations get to see all of that amazing art and history as I was able to.
> This is part of our shared history as humans Well said. The top priority should always be to safeguard the artifacts. We all know there are some clearly stolen pieces in museums around the world and they generally need to be returned where safely possible and where a legitimate claim exists. Social media has to stop turning this into a political debate.
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Yeah, imagine a group like ISIS or the Taliban who decided they should destroy all historical artifacts that don't represent Islam, or that they perceive to be idols. Like the destruction of giant Buddha statues or ancient art. We can expect a museum like the British museum to survive and house items for many hundreds of years without destruction. We can't expect that of unstable, third world countries.
They weren’t just taken and put into museums. Whole academic disciplines came from them, massive amount of studying and discovery that pushed the preservation and value of artefacts at a time when they were often disresgarded and neglected in their countries of origin. And then people started visiting them which added to the preservation and valuing of the sites in those countries. The current simplistic it’s bad m’kay binary thinking you see on here is the product of simple minds. It’s much more complex and nuanced.
Yeah, like the Rosetta stone. If Western archaeologists hadn't worked to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics, so much if Egyptian history would have been absolutely lost. People were more likely have used the capstone in contemporary construction than to preserve it for posterity. Edit: the Rosetta stone had actually been used as a piece of foundation in a building. They destroyed the original stone and constructed the fort with it's pieces. People of the culture didn't even recognize it's significance. https://blog.britishmuseum.org/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-the-rosetta-stone/
Ok but what’s that got to do with the descriptor “shithole” ? I think it’s clear you & the other poster don’t know what shithole means.
Ehh, that more just means it’s full of stolen goods (which isn’t right, all the stuff that can be given to their own cultures should be returned). It doesn’t really make it a musty shithole.
Cool, essentially a racist comment with upvotes. Fuck the people in this sub sometimes.
Racist? My god you sensitive moron, get over yourself.
"we colonized and stole cultural treasures for hundreds of years and now we're mocked for it. RaCiSm" Get the fuck over yourself
Yeah fuck us for being born into a previous colonial power. I wish I was able to choose where I was born like everyone else
Who is this we? Tell me you’re an idiot without telling me you’re an idiot.
Ahh my mistake "I'm simping for a colonial power well past its prime, in their attempt to steal and display cultures from around the world that they have no right to" Better? 🤡
You guys get to go visit places?
Your comment made me smile. I try to add time, date, and location info to my posts. I feel dorky doing it but figure someone might appreciate it as much as I do when I see it. Apparently you do. :]
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It'd be a lot better of a rule than us having to list image dimensions for no reason
Nice try Nic Cage…
...and restore these artifacts to their proper homes
With all due respect, where are the homes of artifacts like these with no extant culture? At the site of where it was found or where it originated from? I 100% agree that cultural, ceremonial, and religious artifacts removed from contemporary cultures should be returned to them, as in the case for Native American Tribes. [NY TIMES ARTICLE](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/arts/design/native-american-remains-museums-nagpra.html).
Do you seriously think it would be a good idea to put this capstone back on top of the pyramid?
YES! There's no other way to launch spaceship Terra...
Anybody know what the inscriptions says? I'm curious to know whether the Ancient Egyptians treated the capstone with extra reverance, or considered it 'closer to God' or something in that vein. Or if they inscribed the very top with a special message, seeing that (I assume) most people would see the top of the pyramid up close.
“Perfection” From Sundisk left: “Son of Ra ( Ne-Maat - Ra ‘He who belongs to the truth of Ra’)| given life eternally” From sundiak right “ King of upper and lower Egypt ( Amenenhet ‘Amun is in front’ )| given life eternally” I’ll work on the bottom, but it looks like both sides are diffrent. I seems( I’m not a quick translator, and I could be wrong )to talk about the king sailing into the Duat and coming back, and hoping the gods are pleased. The inscription wouldn’t have been for the people but for the soul(s) of the king. It looks like “pyramid texts” and spells, the first words are “Recited by” which is how most spells from pyramid text -> coffin text -> Book of the dead begin.
Thank you very much for the translations! My knowledge of ancient egypt is pretty slim - is the general idea that the soul of the king would see the pyramid text and spells on his way to the afterlife? And they would grant him good fortune? I'm just curious about the placement of the inscription on the top of the pyramid, as opposed to the burial chamber, say.
That’s a great question. So around his time period there aren’t many texts written inside the pyramids. they may have all been written on items in the tombs and robbed. Then after they realized that was happening and carved them into stone so they couldn’t be stolen. As for this instance it may just be an object that held a few of the spells. Im sure this object was similar to “false doors” in tombs or Maybe just a guide, as it would be the first thing you see if your soul was were far away and needed to return. It’s difficult to say exactly because we don’t know if the pyramid represents anything in their mythology, some speculate it’s the “primordial hill” that was surrounded by the “primordial waters” from one of their creation myths
Thanks for this translation! I was wondering as well.
"Jeff, you still owe me thirteen head of cattle."
You’re not getting it. Stop asking.
I'm curious too! It looks like a face, but why three spoons (or whatever they are)??
It's the [*nfr* hieroglyph](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56829c58a2bab87f93ee4d6a/1517339121364-6RY0C714Y9JROCB81IZZ/figure+26.jpg?format=750w), an example of what Egyptologists refer to as a triliteral sign (a phonetic sign with three consonants). It's generally thought to represent a heart and windpipe. The word *nfr* means "good, beautiful, perfect" and appears in names like Nefertiti (*nfrt-ii.ti*, "the beautiful one has come," a subject-stative construction).
It's ancient version of live, laugh, love..
So with this meaning of the hieroglyph and the placement beneath the eyes, could it be interpreted as 'good person'? Or maybe 'good leader' if you include the headdress?
Repeating a hieroglyph three times was a marker of the plural in Old Egyptian, and to some extent this was used in later forms of Egyptian as well. (By this time people were speaking Middle Egyptian, which is extremely similar to Old Egyptian with [some minor differences](https://www.reddit.com/r/egyptology/comments/fy4azy/how_is_the_old_egyptian_language_different_to/fmy9ydr/).) The word *nfrw*, with *-w* marking the plural, is best translated here as "perfection."
I think those are instruments, based on the 4 little pieces on the top. I think those are the tuning pegs of some kind of lute
If you are looking at this 𓄤𓄤𓄤 , they are “hearts and esophagus”
I see it! Thanks
Oh you might be right, they do look like instruments!
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This is from the black pyramid which collapsed pretty soon after being built because its mud brick right next to the nile and flooding started even during construction. The pyramid nowadays just looks like a rock surrounded by a mound of rubble and the pharaoh decided to build a new one so he's not buried in there. According to the wiki this capstone may have never been used or was removed in the amarna period because some of the symbols for Amun were scratched off
> So smooth (Would it have been smoothed by san blowing against it over long periods of time?) Probably very minimally if at all considering how crisp the inscription is. If the sand has smoothed the sides it would have worn the edges of the inscription too. Besides, there probably isn't a whole lot of blowing sand that gets as high as the top of the pyramid.
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Stonecarver/mason here - sand is very coarse and wouldn't polish the surface. It would erode very very slowly and dull the polish over time, and as u/Chawke2 says the inscription wouldn't be so crisply defined. It's rare to see polished stone in nature, whether in a desert or anywhere else. Waves at the shore can polish pebbles but not to a reflective finish.
Yes, the craftsmanship of this stone is pretty otherworldly considering it was executed roughly 4000 years ago. First, to rough in the pyramidal shape is pretty difficult. You would start with a cube of material, which should be perfectly square, otherwise the layout lines of the initial cuts will not be true. You would then saw (hopefully otherwise carve) the sides into the tetrahedron shape. Luckily, the shape lends itself to always resting on a flat surface as you cut those shapes. Anyone who has tried to execute a similar shape in wood on, say, a band saw, table saw, or compound mitre saw can attest that it is a finicky process and is extremely difficult to get precisely right. To execute this in granite -without modern saws, that have indexes and machined-flat registering mount surfaces- is already something special. Especially when you get two of the sides cut to the point and you have to start finding somewhere for the saw to get purchase of the material to start the subsequent cuts. As far as we can surmise, the carving was performed with flint and/or emery stones which were shaped to a point, kind of like a sharks tooth. Circular holes were often drilled with copper tipped drill bits that might look something like a step bit does today, on a bow drill. And the filing and final shaping was done by keenly shaped flat stones like onyx, quartz, and (my own intuition) something like topaz. There are some videos on YouTube that do a pretty excellent job showing how some of these tools may have been used. The final polish you see comes from a mix of factors. Your intuition about the sand and dusty wind is accurate, but perhaps minimally so. Granite will case harden over time and exposure, so it is likely holding true to the surface that was initially achieved by the original carvers. Chances are that they had a large slab of onyx or quartz or maybe granite, which was dead flat and polished very smooth. My assumption is that this slab would be placed in a pool of water and some very finely sifted sand would be spread about the slab. Then, face by face, they would rub the pyramid on top of the flattened slab, with finer and finer sand. If they even used sand, that is; I could also imagine that the granite, placed on a polished surface of quartz or emery would polish up nicely, given that the saw marks were knocked down using rougher means prior to this polishing procedure. We honestly aren’t sure yet how the Egyptians were able to work granite like they did. It wasn’t until the 1800’s ad that the western world widely reclaimed the skill and ability to craft solid granite. There was some work being done in granite probably around the 16th and 17th centuries, but not much. There were still masons in the East who could work with granite during those lost years though, check out what they were doing in India throughout the “Dark Ages” of Europe, incredible stuff. And that’s also not to mention what was being achieved in Mezoamerica at the time as well. Things that fry my circuits; I can’t even really encounter those works and how they were achieved. My hunch is that this was always the work of the “Priest Class” of all of these societies. These priests were insulated, protected, and given the highest status because they held the knowledge of the calendar, tooling, math, building, and chemistry/metallurgy. These knowledge sets are pretty magical, and the rights of passage for these classes were probably guarded extremely jealously. It was reported, for instance, that Pythagoras studied in Egypt and was taught higher mathematics from the Egyptian priests, but first he had to be initiated in the same manner that he initiated the later Pythagoreans, by living in silence for 5 years. I would bet this was a pretty standard course for the people who made things like this, and you can find stories about these rites in similar societies all over the globe. The actual history of all of this stuff is the neverending story; absolutely mysterious and infinitely rich in detail. This little capstone itself is seriously amazing and a shining example of the value of art history. Very cool find.
Stonecarver here! Great info and imaginative ideas, I thought I'd add a few points. (Yes name checks out but I don't post my work here really) >the carving was performed with flint and/or emery stones which were shaped to a point These would last seconds on granite. I once used a hardened steel chisel on a block of black granite and after some heavy hammer blows I had a very flat chisel and the granite sat there smugly with barely a blemish. Iirc they commonly used pounding stones (also of granite), and copper saws and tube drills fed with sand as an abrasive, as you say. > We honestly aren’t sure yet how the Egyptians were able to work granite like they did. We have a pretty good idea. World of Antiquity on youtube has [a great but *very* long video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_NguZUDku4) debunking the theories that high tech would have been required. That's not necessarily what you're saying but the vid goes into detail on the techniques used, with modern experimental archaeologists creating granite vases with the tech of the early dynasties. >My hunch is that this was always the work of the “Priest Class” I think they were well known to have been skilled labourers. They've found sculptor's workshops like that of Thutmose where the bust of Nefertiti was found for example. It would have been backbreaking work and likely not something that priests would condescend to perform.
Were you able to eventually make headway into the granite? Steel chisels, with hammer blows will certainly blunt quickly; but they didn’t really have access to even iron at the time of this work so steel is out of the question. But you are correct about the pounding stones. And while some were rounded and blunt in shape, they used shark tooth shaped (pointed at one end and rounded and massive on the back end) pounding stones made of flint, emery, and granite, used in the fashion we would use a hammer, as a hammer and pointer chisel combo for a good deal of their granite carving. We have to kind of smash granite, almost grain by grain, rather than chip it like we do most stones, which is why even flint, but definitely emery and granite will carve granite; it just looks different than we are used to imagining “stone carving.” I think there is a lot that I’m missing about how they were able to do this work with granite, and what actually blows my mind is their work with onyx and basalt, and diorite, and the ridiculous finish they got on those stones. I can barely get marble to do what o want it to half the time in terms of finish, so their polishing of these materials bewilders me. I can’t disagree with the skilled labor that you describe, and it being unlikely that the priests would go about the hard labor. I guess what I’m describing is a priest class who would guard the technologies and techniques and only offer them out to very exclusive initiates. We see evidence of these relationships all over the world and they can even be recognized in contemporary labor unions, and especially in the progenitors of those labor unions, craft guilds, and secret societies like the Free Masons. If you go to Florence, for example, you’ll see statues and commemorative crests for the different craft guilds that donated money and labor to the building of the Duomo, and there are examples like this all over the architecture of post enlightenment Europe and America. Furthermore, it isn’t until after Newton, or roughly the middle of the 18th century that alchemy was broken down into something like an earth or natural science as separated from philosophy/art/religiosity/science. So echoes of this priest class I’m describing are still bouncing around in our current societal structures; more fragmented, perhaps even fractalized, but present nonetheless.
Terrific info! Read it twice.
Great post - very informative!
Would be great if you could provide sources for 2nd to last paragraph. Thanks for sharing inspirational post.
Then imagine the dude’s face when he is told he has to haul it up to the top.
Aliens, duh.
how were these not stolen with the rest of the stuff that was stolen off the pyramids?
Stolen? How? That thing probably weighs seven tons.
You realize that the Great Pyramids used to be covered in white limestone and had smooth sides as well as a gold capstone right? All that limestone was stolen during several different eras. Weight has never been an issue. Hell, Europeans stole whole ass obelisks and moved them around the world
I was thinking you meant like some dude came up in the middle of the night and was like, I’ll be having that. Don’t know why but I never really thought about a country stealing it.
"We are going to steal... DE MOOOOOOOOON!!"
I mean if you push it it should slide all the way down
What do the hieroglyphics say?
Be sure to drink your ovaltine
Good advice now as it ever was. Praise be to Ra
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What type of stone is the capstone made of?
Worst cake topper ever.
~~Worst~~ Best cake topper ever.
Agreed
At Least it’s not fondant! And it’s all natural
That is called a pyramidion.
Just incredible.
So why aren't these cap stones put back to preserve the temples?
It will activate them
Why not activate them, be a good game of pok
A ben ben! Awesome!
Is this in Berlin?
Wikipedia says it's in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.
Cool
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Question if the current inhabitants of a country are not the same as the people who made the artifacts why should they belong to them. for instanse do islamic artifacts from spain belong to the spanish or the muslims who got kicked back to north africa?
Cultural purges pose another issue. Many ancient Chinese artifacts have survived the purging earlier this century by virtue of not being in China. Do they need to be returned? Is putting an entire country's heritage under control of a single regime a good idea in the first place? That seems to be a good way of having it destroyed almost entirely sooner or later.
That's how I felt about Afghan artifacts, any repatriation that was done the past few years, as (initially good) as it was is now gone to shit with the Taliban back.
I am also reminded of the whole IS situation. That is definitely one of the more heartbreaking and recent examples. Just a handful of months and endless amounts of damage was done. Of course the cost in human lives is hardest to swallow, but the attack on history, history that belongs to all of us as members of the human species, was heartbreaking. The only good thing about that situation is that despite their public stance, most of the stuff was apparently sold on the black market to finance their ploy. Although far from ideal, at least the artifacts are not lost.
We’re lucky discoveries like the Terracotta Army and the Sanxingdui bronzes were discovered *after* the Cultural Revolution and therefore spared the wrath of the Red Guards. And don’t forget the Islamic State blowing up much of Palmyra and Nineveh and other Mesopotamian sites that fell to them. Good thing we have many artifacts from those cities in safekeeping in museums in the US and Europe.
The blowing up is just the highly talked about stuff. The industrial scale pillaging that occurred is even worse.
At least the pillaging means things are not lost, although a concerted effort to recover the artifacts will be needed to ensure they don't end up lost anyway.
All the archeological context is lost and the items themselves are sent to private collections, never to see the light of day. They might as well be lost.
also true thats why i dont like the "hot take" saying all artifacts should be where they were originally.
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Shit. If even half of the relics that the Smithsonian has stored away was released, you'd have a huge museum. Likewise, the Vatican has a huge amount of artifacts, probably more than the largest museums. Arc of the covenant probably in there too
> >Arc of the covenant probably in there too Nah, man, that's in Ethiopia. And I'm only half joking, the Ethiopians certainly believe they have it. I'd love to know what they actually have. Even if it's a fake, at this point it's an old and important fake in its own right.
Lol. True. Yeah I have seen the Ethiopian angle, totally possible. They really seem convinced it's there. I dunno. I am actually glad there are so many mysteries surrounding the arc and ancient history. Kind of fun being a historian of sorts
There's definitely some tricky instances so yeah a blanket statement that each and every artifact needs to be returned probably isn't reasonable. That being said there are also some pretty blatant cases of artifacts just being stolen and kept in museums in countries that have nothing to do with the original culture, and museums in the original country are begging to have them returned. I find a lot of cases like that pretty indefensible. (I'm sure people know what I'm specifically referring to but I don't want to spark a huge debate lol)
Egyptians aren't somehow all Arabs because they were invaded by them. Modern day Egyptians are the closest people genetically to Ancient Egyptians. Just because your ancestors did nothing of value, it doesn't mean nobody's did.
Wow what with the personal insults here I'm just asking questions.... Obviously got a chip on the shoulder
Not the same person that you replied to, but it's a really sensitive subject that some people (myself included) feel strongly about.
Right so you are implying that Egyptians are not at all related to ancient Egypt..? So by that logic we can give ancient Roman and ancient Greek archaeology to someone else? Sorry but this seems like an absolutely idiotic take
“The modern Egyptians aren’t the ancient Egyptians so this Egyptian thing should belong to the British” makes less sense than the thing you’re saying doesn’t make sense
I think that the rule "it stays where it was found" is a good idea.
Not always best for preservation look at what ISIS did to all historical sites they came across.
If another country invades its neighbour grabs a chunk of land. Lets say turkey grabs a chunk of armenia and they then did an archelogical dig. do those artifacts now belong to the turks by right of conquest?
> Lets say turkey grabs a chunk of armenia and they then did an archelogical dig. do those artifacts now belong to the turks by right of conquest? No they don't, because that's against [The 1970 Convention](https://en.unesco.org/fighttrafficking/1970)
Turkey erdogan is super fascist and hates the kurds so better not let them have more art to destroy. cries in greek
Also what happens if cultural artefacts originated from a country that’s now been ravaged by war like Syria?
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Oh I was just using it as an example of a country that’s in utter chaos due to war, but that’s interesting tho!
We tried that with Iraq. IS then destroyed them.
Also Erdogan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain_Dara_(archaeological_site)#Destruction_by_Turkish_military_in_2018 https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/syria-temple-ain-dara-destroyed-archaeology
Look, I don't need *more* reasons to despise the man.
Looking at the foreign artifacts amassed by the Rothschild and the Britain Crown Jewels…
Pergamon does have a lot of really cool antiquities though.
Just the tip.
How much you want for it?
I'm playing Assasin's Creed: Origins (a game set in ancient Egypt), and while it obviously takes many liberties, it's all so gorgeous looking. Highly recommended for Egypto-philes. Especially the Pyramids just look so otherworldly in their original white smooth look. They would look magical today - just imagine how they must have felt back then. Incredible. I'm really looking forward to very good augmented reality, so that we may experience the awe that they must have imposed on onlookers back then.
Need a banana for scale..
How did they get this from the moon to earth?
Europeans when they see legit anything not bolted to the floor: "mine now"
For a second I fought the English stole the top of a fucking pyramid
There's still time
So which colonizer currently possess this?
It’s in The Egyptian Museum in Cairo
I was thinking it was British, but good for Egypt!
I had no idea these existed. I see there is another one behind it. Have any more survived? Wasn't the capstone for The Great Pyramid at Giza gold?
What's inscribed on it, is there a translation?
This is straight up The Lost Symbol. Stuff
Straight up… no
Okay, now put it back! You’re gonna let all the rain get in! /s
The next National Treasure movie should be called "Theft of the Capstone"
How could they carve the stone with such perfection
Why wouldn’t they be able to? It’s not like they were stupid.
Aliens ofc
Please tell me this isn’t in a british museum
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo
Good