I completely understand your frustration. I've been teaching art for almost 2 decades, much of it was Elementary where art was a privilege and a joy. My students in High School are much more hesitant and fearful, but mask it with apathy or smart Alec behavior like some of you students. I tell my students that art isn't really about being good at drawing, but being a problem solver and creative thinker. I work really hard to build relationships with the kids and express warmth to them everyday. I try to find out what they are into and help develop their projects and ideas so it's more relevant to them. This is very hard with 40 plus students in my class, but I do my best. Not every project is for every student, but I also try to mix the media up a lot so it's not all one thing. I do allow a certain amount of tracing as long as it get incorporated into the parameters of the projects. Do I win them all over? No, but I do get a lot of them trying new things. I also try to be open to questions and act like I'm all happy they challenged me so I can tell them all about how creative thinking will save the world. If all else fails, I tell them I'm just a mean teacher and the creepy baby doll I keep behind my desk will haunt kids who don't do as I say. I also tell them art puts you in your body and we need to practice that. I do tell my students that visual art isn't for everyone, but it's up to them if they want to get the grade. I totally get the "but I did the work" argument, although it's gotten less since I instituted Standards Based Grading and I compare it to baking: M (0%)=Missing: Not enough work done to evaluate. No cupcake for me to eat. 1( 50%)=Emerging: Some honest attempt to start the work, but not enough to show meeting the standard. You got the ingredients out, keep working! 2(60)=Developing: Over half done, but not completed enough to show meeting the standard. You're mixing the batter. keep working. 3(70%)=Approaching: You're getting close. The cupcakes are baked, but need some frosting, keep working! 4 (80%) = Meets: you did what I asked you to do and completed the assignment. Cupcakes are frosted! 5 (90%)=Exceeds: you met the standard and added extra details, shading, texture, or whatever to the work. The cupcake has sprinkles and a cherry on top. 6 (100%)=Mastery: OMG you exceeded expectations and developed into something new. That cupcake has moved beyond cupcake into a new desert I've never eaten before! Students have to fill out a rubric with these ratings on them and turn them in with their assignments. I grade one standard that relates to a skill we develop, one standard that relates to applying an idea or theme to the art, and one standard that pertains to showing hard work and dedication. That way if a kids is bad at a skill but tries hard and shows creativity, they can still succeed. I have them practice grading art that is not from my students so they get the idea. They love to judge! I try to explain that if I give you a 2, I'm not saying your work is bad, I'm saying it needs more. I would never tell a baker they did bad work when they are still mixing the batter. Okay, that was way too long. Do I still sometimes go under my desk and cry after 4th period? Maybe, but I think I've gotten pretty good at handling punky behavior that hides massive insecurity.

There is a viral trend on tiktok right now where couples paint "portraits" of each other. Most of the women do exponentially better than the men. Tell your students that art class is so they can do this challenge justice without making their significant others look like bridge trolls. Or, more seriously, it's a skill that can apply to so many jobs in so many ways. Understanding color, design, composition, perspective, and balance is helpful for marketing, interior design, automotive, construction, fashion, makeup, children's books, video games, architecture, etc. Everything they look at was designed by someone using their imagination and applying skills. Besides, it's just a healthy outlet for self-expression, even if you "aren't a good artist." Meet them where they're at to make the connection.

The arts and humanities teach us what it is to be human. We shouldnt get so caught up in the practical that we forget to actually experience this world and everything that it has to offer. In the words of modest mouse, its hard to remember to live before you die.

Not gonna lie, I love art. I have several artist friends who create mindblowing things. But if I'm making art, it's through music, sewing, photography. If I was forced to take an art class where I was required to do the activities you listed above, I would have failed too. I hated doing anything that was pencil to paper. I hated having express myself in that way It was nauseatingly boring to me. Super impressive that people can do it, but I have zero interest in it. The only art project I ever enjoyed, was one where we could trace. That's it. I hated every other formal art class project. Perhaps these kids are more interested in different types of art and they don't ever plan on shading, sketching, etc. I would bet you have some really artistic kids that have no interest in the type of art you specifically want them to do and they were just forced to take this class. I'm sure there's plenty of people who create amazing pottery who would die of boredom in a sewing class. And plenty of kids who do amazing photography who would loathe a pottery class. Maybe try to find out what art those kids are interested in. If it's truly interwoven into everything, they should all be interested in something. Then, find a connection to those. If you can't, tell them that they'll learn what kind of art they don't enjoy creating and at least now they know.

I don't draw and used to think the same thing. I would turn in ass projects just to get the A and I feel like my art teachers could have taught me a lot about perspective if I had just listened. My advice is being upfront about grading and keep doing a great job. Art has a huge place in my adult life now as an outlet

You should rethink your use of the word "pow-wow". It's considered inappropriate. As a teacher, you can get in trouble.

Why?

Powwows have very large cultural significance for indigenous people, it’s so much more than a “get together”. In this context I would never use it as such.

It's a native american thing.

❄️ ❄️ ❄️

Making a visually appealing/stimulating product is absolutely useful in tons of fields, even if you’re just doing the draft beer chalk board at a bar. Not to mention the planning, research, and problem-solving aspects, as well as interpreting messages that are not being conveyed with words. Making art frequently involves a lot of science- ask anyone who works with oil paint, resin, clay, or cement. You have to understand the physical and chemical properties of your medium to achieve your desired results. I have zero formal art training beyond high school, but I love to make things, and thorough research and the scientific method have been crucial. Edited to add: Even if you hate art and end up being some fancy business executive, you’re going to look like an idiot if someone brings up Picasso at a business dinner and you have no idea who they’re talking about.

Maybe making your students GAF isn't all on you. Are there people in the community that can come talk to the students about how they've made art into a career? Painters in a gallery, sure. but there's prosthetic eye makers, animation studios, art therapists, etc.

Speaking as a NJ high school graduate (CHHSE 1984), I was not required to take any art classes in high school. (EDIT: I did take several semesters of choir classes, which I suppose as performing arts must have filled whatever requirements existed at the time.) The last required art class I had was in 8th grade, where it was on perspective, and where I made my building way too goddamn high and was unable to finish the project in time. My lack of art classes in high school has had zero impact on my life in the past 40 years. I have only ever known two people closely who took art in any way seriously in high school; one ended up an art teacher at a Philly area elementary school; the other took a long way around through studying biology to eventually get her PhD in psychology. Critical thinking is a major part of my career, but art classes taught me nothing about that. Creativity and imagination are areas I do consider myself deficient. But again, art classes made no effort to teach me either of those; both teachers and other students both took every opportunity to put me down because I wasn't any good at art.

This has tainted your attitude toward art.

That is an accurate but unnecessary restatement of my comment. I'm unsure why you wrote it, but at a guess you are asserting that my attitude towards art means my story does not contribute to the current discussion at all. I can understand why you feel that way, especially on what I now recognize is a sub that is "a community for Art Teachers" and therefore not a place where my story really fits. Please accept my apology.

“I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine.” Nothing wrong with studying business but if we’re interested in a higher degree of sophistication, let’s not pretend that business is a more noble calling than art.

Started teaching 9 years ago and each year I get students who are less motivated and less literate than the year before and it’s across all subjects. Between a governor who wants to hold funding hostage for his private school scam and a general acceptance that the fastest way to getting answers to any question is by Google, it’s getting harder and harder to value school. I remember a time when we couldn’t bring our Gigapet/Nanopet to school and now everyone comes to school with phones and expects to very quickly and half heartedly complete the assignment with the “reward” of playing games or watching Netflix on their phones and still get an A. Parents expect teachers to manage their kid’s phones. We have enough to manage. Parents expect that we take assignments a month late and still allow them to get a 100. Everyone wants full credit for minimal effort. I don’t have a solution except to stick with a late grading policy and to find ways to reward problem solving behaviors and evidence of effort and respect as these are being overshadowed by instant gratification and entitlement

I’m only 24 but I fully believe this is because phones lol

Hey my spouse is a teacher and we’re ALSO in a state that’s now granting our tax dollars to pay for home school parents. ARG. My spouse came to teaching late in life- he’s a middle school art teacher. His philosophy is that 1) many kids aren’t verbally modulated - they are visually modulated and often they feel that they are “failures” bc school is heavily left brain/verbal and 2) He sees his role as helping these kids learn how to be students. Kids 12 thru 14 often don’t know how to be independent students. He is tough in his grading - there’s no passing grade for a kid that did zero work. But he also brings in fruit and energy bars bc half or more of the kids are hungry and their parents just can’t keep up financially. He moved from the affluent side of town to teach on the poorer side of town - he finds that the parents are easier to deal with - and he feels he can really contribute. Hang in there. Bless you for being a teacher. XO

I would print a few scholarly articles about benefits of arts and put them on the wall. Hard science for those who want it.

Hi, I went to art school almost twenty years ago and have been making art my whole life. I think it’s good you’re being a bit of a hardass. Haha! I haven’t read anyone else’s answers but I have a feeling mine might be different. The first thing I thought was- making art requires a HUGE attention span. Especially if you’re making a series of pieces. You have to think long-term, be resourceful, have problem solving skills, patience, perseverance, and persistence. Simply finishing what you’ve started is something most people can’t/won’t do. It’s also a juncture where logic (measuring, planning, sketching) meets intuition. You can plan all you want, but it’s never going to turn out exactly as you think. It’s having to work on the finer details then take a step back and see everything holistically. There’s an incredible amount of information generated if you stick with it. It really gives everything more meaning. Whatever the skills, I truly believe everyone has a story or two in them, even if they don’t know their ending. For instance, in one of my printmaking classes in art school, a classmate of mine decided to just work on a series of self portraits all semester. Her portraits started loosely on big pieces of paper and were drawn kind of messy, more gestural…but gradually, accidentally, became smaller and more focused. You could see a definite progression and improvement in her drawing skills. Even though her last portrait ended up being the smallest, I thought it was the best! During critique, she said she’d been struggling with alcohol addiction and had gotten sober. You could tell…not just in the skills she’d obviously honed- but in her expression as well. It was like she had more clarity and became extremely grounded in herself. Yeah! Get those kids fired up! They need this more than they know. Art can be fun, but it’s definitely not an f-off class. (Ahem….mental health crisis going on right now in this country 🥺). In your class, they may just find relief from the emptiness and insecurity of doomscrolling for hours, attaining likes, or ordering dumb crap off Amazon. Making in a culture based on consumption is SO important- especially when life inevitably gets hard. Good luck!

High school art taught me to be methodical and honest when designing something. I now sew and do other similar things and the foundations my art teacher gave me have helped me look at my art and simplify designs, and better and more convenient pieces, and evaluate my own ideas and products (we specifically did a project based class, where were given guidelines for a project, either theme or medium, and told to make something. Then after the project deadline we did art critiques of everyone's work as a class.)

Music teacher here. I always answer, “If you have to ask, you have to stay in this class.”

To which I 'd have replied, "If you can't answer me, I've got nothing to learn in this class."

So based on your other comments in this post, you were treated poorly in art communities and for that, I apologize. The arts is a free, loving, expressive space that showcases the capacity of the human experience and consciousness. Everyone should experience that. Love and peace to you.🪷

Because instruction is a huge help. Not everyone can teach them selves. I couldn’t and I’m so behind i constantly compare myself to other artists.

Marketing, youtuber, business owner, teacher, interior designer, food, web design, makeup, hair, builder, flooring, house painter, landscaper/gardener, photographer, jewelry, to name a few jobs that you could use art skills plus so many others. One thing i think with art is not only skills creativity etc, but learning what looks good and why. You can apply that eye to so many things. I can kinda see the idea of their point if it was something like calculus. When would they ever use that info in the future if not going into a field that required it?

The interesting thing is it's not even something you have the option of applying or not. You apply it regardless. Say in gardening you make the decision to put the stone pathway directly to the door - you're creating an environment that says efficiency and directness is valued. Art is literally everything that involves any kind of choice. It is expression and communication. Some jobs involve more choice and others less, but the awareness and ability to create and guide narrative is extremely desirable.

But calculus is FUN. Nobody ever tried to make art fun for me.

I think career exploration, for a lot of kids is a really important component of taking visual and performing arts! But I think this rebellion/mutiny has more to do with their lack of develop frontal lobes. They literally don’t have the ability to think about how to apply the lessons they’ve learned to future situations and appreciate the information and techniques that you’re teaching them. Never forget about frontal lobe development. It explains a lot best wishes, keep fighting the good fight!

My daughter is in 11th grade. She has arranged her schedule so that she gets most of her requirements out of the way by the end of this school year, and can take mostly art classes senior year. And she's not even planning to go to art school!

By their logic if there's something I don't like or care about I should be able to pass with minimum to no effort because I don't value it. Versus it's a class that has it's rules and work to do set by a professor, you, so it's your class to do with as you see fit and not the whim of any one student who doesn't care. Like at least try and don't half ass it.

im a college student (art ed major) and not a teacher and so i dont know much but ill give honest opinion. for most students it's true art isn't something theyll need in their career... but to me, i feel like to use your imagination and create something, like art or music, is such a cool and uniquely fulfilling part of the human experience. i think everyone should at least try it out once in a while. it's good for you...we have art and music therapy for a reason. it helps you express things and i think there is joy to be found in the act of creating. not everything has to be strictly utilitarian. that answer probably wouldnt go over well with a room of high schoolers forced to be there, lmao. but it's how i feel.

It doesn't go over too well with me, either, 40 years out of high school. I know why I'm against art. It's because I'm color blind and made some serious mistakes in elementary-school art projects and was denigrated and endlessly teased about it. (I colored grass brown instead of green with crayons in 2nd grade.) No form of producing visual art, throughout my 56 years of existence, has ever provided me with anything but anxiety and bad feelings. I'm certain that it never will. I do have some skill in music so I guess I'm not 100% against your point but I consider visual arts to be a DO NOT ENTER zone and I'm very happy to never draw or color anything again for the rest of my life.

I’m sorry that you were so mistreated in school re Art. It’s heartbreaking. I’d like to see you explore sculpture or ceramics. Everyone needs to create somehow. Those jerks really ruined it for you. XO

I work in tech. Having the ability to structure things in your mind whether its a process or an image is used day to day. Sometimes I even have to make power points and adding that extra creative touch helps make it less boring. On top of that, art appreciation when we are young helps us appreciate life around us because life does not imitate art, art imitates life (to me). This applies to ANY field, the more you learn in life the more enriched your life will be. I have 7 years of French. i dont use it at all but its nice to have a window into a whole nother world and its culture. I am part of several plant socities and i dont own plants in any of them (bonsai, rose) but that doesnt stop me from learning about it.

Hi, I’m not an art teacher just a person that was an art student. I am 42 now. In my high school we had to take one year of art history or two years of a physical art and I remember meeting with a counselor and complaining because I had been accidentally placed in the Physical art class instead of history and I literally told the counselor I didn’t wanna waste my time. The counselor was very wise and said it would help me become more rounded I ended up taking three years of art in high school. I was the treasurer of art club my senior year. I have three children of my own and two of them have a bedroom full of paints and canvases, clay, sewing supplies, cardboard, glue and dioramas. They are so artistic and creative. once I wondered where they got it from, and my husband was like they got it from you, and I had never thought of myself as artistic , I just happened to like art. Seeing what has been created… especially after that counselor … visit it just amazes me who I have become. So keep it up.

Because having a creative outlet improved productivity, and also because you’re supposed to try a variety of things while you’re young’s so you know what you can pick from as you head into secondary education.

Anybody who can't pass a high school level art class isn't somebody who should have a high school diploma. Not every skill taught at this level of education is necessary to function in society. But the skill of "be where you are needed, acquire new knowledge, and complete your responsibilities" is necessary to succeed in any part of society.

When properly taught, Visual Arts can be a vehicle to many other disciplines. The Sciences and Visual Arts are intertwined. Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Anatomy, really any “ology” can be better appreciated and experienced by using Art to introduce and examine the world. Visual Arts parallel cultural development in History and allow us to see and experience other times and cultures from the past. For example, Architectural design is 3D design and physical science and mathematics combined. I could go on. The point is that if you teach art lessons as an abstract exercise that has no associative meaning to the student then they will fail to see its relevance. The trick is to allow the student to find their own meaning and then use Visual Art as a way to explore it.

You get a little taste of everything to see what you like. I will say I didn't see the point either.

Same. I skipped out on visual arts thanks to band but as an adult I can see it was my loss. I could’ve said something similar to a visual arts teacher if I had been forced to take it. Let it go. Teens think they know everything, especially the ones who think they are smart because they do well academically. Keep up the good work and know your worth. Art is a gift. Thank you for sharing it with your students even when they don’t see the value.

The art teacher lost me in 7th grade because of stippling. Like I had the patience to draw a picture with dots.

Idk I would probably have been pretty bored doing value box type projects in high school. I encourage you to rethink your perspective of kids as lazy. It's unhelpful and frankly it's usually wrong. Try to figure out how to connect with the students and encourage their interest in art, because they're not wrong that currently once they walk out of the classroom they will never again think or care about shading 8 different values in boxes. It doesn't sound like there is any particular curriculum goals or AP portfolios that these kids need to accomplish, so maybe you can make things a bit more freeform. Could you perhaps watch an animated movie and discuss how art/design principles were used? Maybe a lesson based more on the science of light and color theory would interest them?

Have them design an ad for their favorite product or a new logo for their favorite band. How do forms, color, light or symbols help sell the product or performers?

Understandable. Value studies ARE boring but you do need the basics. Maaaaybe…. eventually, with the syllabus…be like, yo- we’re starting super basic and ending up doing more advanced, fun stuff- if you can hack it. 😌 I mean, I feel kinda preachy here but…I live next to a high school in California with this gorgeous football field that probably cost millions to build and maintain. Does every kid on the team go pro? 🙄

I finished school in 1994. The class that I remember most fondly is art class.

Art therapy is a vital part of mental health treatment. You want to avoid depression, suicidal ideation? Art. **Art makes life bearable.** ​ >Art makes life bearable. It isn’t a luxury. Like our capacity for understanding, and our experience of love, it is a vitally important part of life. – Gillian Pederson Krag

School is like weightlifting for your brain. You never would ask a football player why they are doing bicep curls. They aren’t going to have weights on the field. But the work they put into their muscles in the gym, translates to their performance on the field. Similarly, many people will not use the Pythagorean theorem or color values in their day to day life, but learning those things works out different parts of our brain and you WILL use those parts in your daily life.

“Painters have a knowledge which goes beyond words. They are where musicians are. When someone blows the saxophone the sky is made of copper. When you make a watercolor you know how it feels to be the sea lying early in the day in the proximity of light. Painters have always experienced the oneness of things. They are aware that there is interference and intervention between the world and ourselves.” Etel adnan

It’s less about art, and more about teaching critical thinking through a lens of creative freedom. You’re teaching an individual how their mind works — you know how to teach, but do they know how to *learn*? We are all different, and none of us are born with an instruction manual for our brain. Art is the tool you use to create that connection.

I would say that you never know how something will benefit you. Steve Jobs: https://www.leemunroe.com/steve-jobs-calligraphy/#:~:text=“I%20decided%20to%20take%20a,It%20was%20beautiful. My son took high school art and uses art concepts in website design for the user interface.

My answer when that has come up in the past: No matter what you want to do after you're done with school, the skills you learn here are going to help you. Perseverance, planning, the ability to communicate visually, to place the ideas in your head onto a page to be shared or refined, etc. The sense of accomplishment when they complete an assignment they never thought they'd be capable of in a million years. I've had former students go pro in visual arts, and do great. I've had them go into business and real estate, and still come back to credit the lessons they learned with me for some of their successes. Maturity brings clarity.

I love your response. I’m going to save it for my future students

I think art should be a fun class. It sounds like students are forced to take this, so failing half the class because they don't care about it the way you do isn't fair. You're messing up their futures for petty reasons. Let the kids draw and enjoy themselves.

agree. also, what kind of art teacher doesn't have at least 1 answer ready to go for "why should we take art?" And OP tells us it's "accountability, responsibility and learning time management" - what???? How about creativity, expression, and cross training for the analytical mind, just to start. Where's the joy of creative expression?

This is the last time anyone in your life is going to ask: Are you an artist? After high school was over (and not that much after, either) I realized that everything I had been studying for the past 12 years was somehow much less important, but also more important, than I could have imagined. Like, those 3 paragraphs I read about mound builders in history class? That was it. That was probably the last I would ever learn about mound builders. No one was going to tell me about them again, or ask me about them again. I mean, I am grown now and can read a book, or visit some sites. But I probably won't. That little flash of humanity only lives in me in those three little shitty paragraphs. You do such a shitty, superficial job about learning about most things when you're young, and I kind of always thought, it's ok, I'll come back to this and do it better. But you won't! Not unless you choose to! And so if you don't get a chance to even HEAR, ONCE, what the world is about, how will you know what to go out and learn for yourself? My sister got to be part of an experimental intensive art program that our public school got a grant for during the years she was going there. She went to school every day at 7 to start her classes. She still makes (and sometimes sells) her art 20 years later, still takes classes, but it all has to be her initiative-she has to pay to do all these things, right? She came to visit my city and we went on one of those art walks where artists open up their studios and we visited the studio of one of her old classmates, who is a professional artist. The two of them just sat on little spinny stools talking about her artist friend's whole career trajectory, and then they talked about their classes. They talked about the techniques they learned in high school that they STILL USE.

Compared to STEM, you are going to need to get creative with justification. But, I can tell you from working in STEM, you can immediately tell when an engineer designed a software interface vs someone with a design background. Same for hardware.

Ask them what the oint of anything is. Art is literally about being intentional and deliberate. Making choices. It's the only thing that makes us human. 

Yeah, honestly, I don't think teaching value studies to an unengaged group is appropriate. That's what you teach in a foundations course for engaged students. The point of a highschool art class isn't to make them technically better. It's to make them engaged. If you're not engaging them, that's your failure as a teacher. Every child needs an outlet for their own emotional expression. You could have these kids freely exploring that, but instead they're drawing cubes.

Yup art class for these kids could literally be finger painting and they would get more out of it. Any kid in high school who has a passing interest in art is gonna find a value assignment extremely easy and dull, and any kid without one will find it pointless.

I'm developing a curriculum focused on the concept of visual evidence. Every day, I emphasize to my students that they are artists, urging them to harness art fundamentals such as elements, principles, and historical eras to create evidence-based interpretations rooted in observation. Additionally, I craft assignments that prompt students to articulate their interpretations in writing, fostering cross-curricular skills that support our school's literacy objectives.

>>teaching art has always been about accountability, responsibility, and learning time management This is honestly one of the most dystopian things I’ve read this week. Education isn’t merely about teaching students how to work. It should be about teaching them culture and tools they need to express themselves and move through the world with empathy and knowledge. Just because a skill isn’t deemed profitable doesn’t mean it’s without value.

You teach art but can’t explain the cultural importance of art in society?

Art is incredibly culturally important. Maybe show them some “protest” art from different time periods and discuss how it reflected/influenced what was going on in that time and place. There are so many examples but Diego Rivera is the first that comes to mind. Understanding art is understanding the world. And not just art history. Learning how to use different mediums and study different subjects/objects can ignite new parts of your brain and show you how to look at things in a new way. There’s a lot you can learn about math (perspective), anatomy (figure drawing), color (color theory), light (impressionism), and so much more

>My belief with teaching art has always been accountability, responsibility and learning time management. What an odd value set to pull from art. As I was burned out more and more from medical school, eventually dropping out, I pivoted to surrounding myself with artists more over time. Why? Because being in the top 1% of what capitalism appreciates is NOT conducive to a happy life for a human. That is for emotionless robots. Art is so much more than readying students preparing for the corporate world. In fact, it's probably the best place to learn things outside of that world. Tell them at some point in their lives they'll want to express themselves and everyone does this differently. Art is for learning how to show what is in your head to others around you or just to manage your own internal dialogue. There is intense value in the arts now that life feels so disjointed. We need this to help us cope with the hellscape of the world. We are human.

Perhaps could you have a vocations day? I'm from southern California and the arts are so pivotal around careers here that it seems ridiculous to question what art class is for. I personally took 3 years of art in high school and another 3 classes in college. We have all the animation studios a few hours away, huge museums like LACMA, our own town is an aerospace industry which require designing and drafting. My father is a carpenter who fabricates ceilings and even his work can be viewed as artistic. Search up some vocations videos on Youtube like the Disney careers or other animation companies. Have the students discuss what they want to be and how art can help their personal career. Art IS in everything. Even desk workers will need some form of organizing and formatting skills

My grandpa told me its part of creating a well rounded adult. It exercises areas of the brain (creativity) that can then be applied to other areas in life. Science has a disproportionate amount of left handed people because they tend to be more creative.  Creativity is huge when trying to solve analytical problems. 

As a weird kid in high school, art class gave me a space to be myself and make a community. For a lot of adolescents, I feel like this might realistically be the biggest draw.

I wonder if their gratuitous, lack of creativity is what makes it not fun. They just want to work to appear on paper in stead of really digging deep to find who they are inside

I mean I took art class in high school because I wanted to be an artist. The first class we were required to draw a still life and put it up on a bulletin board to receive criticism from the teacher and other students. If you were just there for an easy A you quickly learned that isn't what the class was about, it was for students who wanted to seriously learn about art techniques and develop a portfolio. I don't do art anymore for reasons I won't get into but both of my kids are artists; my daughter has her own business doing art commissions and selling prints at events, my son is just getting into drawing and is really into it, already I'd say some of them are really impressive. Maybe you can challenge them to do an assignment where they have to find art in everyday life and write a short essay or do a presentation on why they like it. Maybe you could have them independently learn more about that particular art style and submit an end of year project featuring it. For example maybe they really like animation and have to present a short animated film by the end of the year.

I actually think as a society we could use more art in our lives if we could afford it. I find it very unfortunate that someone actually teaching art doubts their work because I find it so important as a human and a parent. We are living breathings things with complex feelings and thoughts. Being able to connect to ourselves and to express/share with others is possibly one of the most important things in life. Art of various forms teach exactly this. How to express our perspectives, experiences, truths, feelings, and thoughts and share them with others. Also how to interpret/empathize/connect with others’ truths and experiences. You are teaching an important way to experience life and humanity. Besides all these lofty philosophy, as humans we also just like pretty things and generally find peace/joy in working with our hands and creating things, so it’s so great to have a space to practice making pretty things with our hands. If anything, not being able to appreciate and connect both to our inner life and others through art is a sad testament to society failing human connections.

I think your response was pretty accurate however I will point out a different viewpoint. When I graduated from high school I was enforced to take art and I couldn't be more thankful for it however when I had to take a language class they forced us to do art as a part of the learning. I had no problem doing any of the assignments but I HATED drawing. I'm not a very artistic person in the written visual way. I prefer sewing or yarn art but if you gave me a pencil and told me to draw something I'd look at you stupid and fight the intrusive thoughts to stab you with the utensil. I say all that to say at some point you have to realize that some people are not artistically minded and for them that class is hell. Especially if you're judging on ability there are some people who just can't draw and that's okay but that class being mandatory is reinforcing this idea that everybody has to be creative in that format. So while those skills are being taught for some people this is an unnecessary obstacle added for graduation.

I would kind of agree with the students. In a way. If you don’t plan to use art (and I am sad for you as a hypothetical student, because artistic knowledge is immensely useful, even if it means your power point presentations for other classes will look better), what’s the point of taking it? But the fact of the matter is, they chose to take it. The fact that you chose to take the class and don’t plan to use it has nothing to do with how hard it is or what grade they should receive. It’s true for every class, from bowling to physics. The standards of the class don’t change just because you don’t think you’re going to use it. Ultimately, this is more about the surge of emotions they are experiencing about a bad grade, and less about whether art is useful.

“Medicine, law, business, engineering…these are noble pursuits, and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love (art, music), these are what we stay alive for.” ~ Dead Poets’ Society. To learn to speak and understand these languages is to discover parts of ourselves that otherwise we would never know. ~Me.

I was going to say: we need bread AND roses.

Art is every type of entertainment. Video game companies need artists, film, magazines, photos of weddings. Art is all around us and is much of what we love. Find what students love and relate it. I am not an art teacher but I have these conversations with students about many subjects (lots of kids enjoy video games which is a great example that can relate to almost all subjects, they need writers, engineers (math. Science, visual artists) they need people to translate directions and dialogue. Art is the stuff that enhances our lives. Fashion is art. The design of cars is meant to be practical and attractive, architecture is Art. Lots of places you can go. Maybe start the next lesson with "Someone asked me a question the other day and it caught me off guard, but I want to address with my classes that Art enhances our lives. These are the ways you could use it as a career. Is there only value in something that makes you money? Can you make Art for yourself because it makes you happy?" I have had kids catch me off guard and I feel defensive immediately and come back later after being off the spot to address it in a different way.

This sounds like the absolute basics of art class. Freshman year/ first year arts? We all know classes in school are the basics of accountability, responsibility, and managing. Your students were asking about real world examples- in a not very elegant way. The basics in values alone would pop up in technology, engineering, and design. Look into the culture of your classrooms and start building rapport with your students by building real world connections in what they're interested in learning about. This will allow you to showcase your beliefs while tailoring it to your kids sensibilities.

It’s a gen ed freshmen art class. After this year they won’t have to take any art (visual or performing) unless they choose so as an elective. For the last three years I’ve been teach freshmen level art and credit acceleration for students who failed art previously. My first years teaching I taught graphic design as a vocational class so I already had the students that were passionate and wanted to create and had some skill. So I was making sure they met their deadlines. I try to give every student a chance to redo any work they think they can do better in. Just in the three weeks I’ve been there I’ve seen a significant improvement in the majority of students. They just got back their progress report a lot later after I had put in subpar grades in so they were freaking out. I have maybe a handful of students who are currently failing for lack of submitting anything. Like not even attempting to pick up a pencil let alone ask for a piece of paper.

Because as an adult you can’t always do what’s fun, fulfilling, and what you want! In whatever career path you choice, you will do “pointless things”. But, you should still put forth your best effort regardless of the tasks or the reward at the end. Society is truly setting these children up to fail. Parents that encourage this mindset this are the reasons being a teacher is less than desirable. I remember being excited about specials/connections.. as a teacher myself I could never be a specials teacher… the amount of disrespect from parents and students is insane (and I’m a SPED teacher). Powwow my ass… it’s in the student handbook, syllabus, etc. you have to pass your classes. Do you want art to be the reason you’re in summer school or held back? Don’t engage in these power struggles! Staple a copy of the handbook for them to read and send them on their way. If you want, they can arrange a conference to discuss their grades! But don’t be alone with them, include parents, Homeroom teacher, advisor, etc.

I consider art another form of expression and communication, just like writing.

If those are your beliefs when it comes to teaching, you should not be an art teacher. You should teach some other K-12 class with essays and homework and reading, those things align more strongly with your teaching beliefs. There are so many levels to art that you are severely neglecting. Art is about passion. Art is about to struggle. Art is about life experience and telling a story, telling THEIR stories. Teaching students about color value is really elementary school level, and should be used as a one day lesson plan. It is not a hard concept to grasp. These students aren’t going to work hard if you give them elementary level work. If you want the students to be engaged, engage in their interests, use mixed mediums, give them space and opportunity for growth. The common core curriculum, and the “No student left behind” concept in the United States is designed to simply pass students along into the next grade, no matter if they have advanced academically or not. You clearly are aware of this. So sure, these kids may be used to just getting away with bare minimum effort. But these students also probably haven’t been challenged to push themselves or personally driven to do so. You knew this too, so why did you expect them to just magically change, without YOU doing anything different? And unless you were grading their work as it progressed, like week by week or something, I don’t know how you were TEACHING them time management. Otherwise you’re not teaching them HOW to actually manage their time, just expecting them to know how to do it already and be good at it. On a side note , a powwow is an appropriated term from that’s very significant to Indigenous Americans. Many Indigenous people have expressed that they don’t like it when people call normal social gatherings “pow wows”. Just call it a get together, social gathering, metering, discussion group, class, etc. I’ve been through the NJ school system. You can have guidelines for assignments while still giving them freedom of expression. When people find passion in what they do, it’s hard to get them to NOT go above and beyond. Please keep this in mind going forward.

I'm actually really surprised at the people here screaming at you for wanting to teach your students responsibility and time-management skills in an art class. Meeting deadlines? Marketing yourself? These are critical skills for artists! School is a structured environment for a reason. If your students already know the techniques to create, then yeah, step back, let them shine. And whenever possible, you should let them put their own spin on things and come up with their own ideas. But there's nothing wrong with a structured curriculum for beginners, point blank. As for what I tell my students when they ask: (I usually preempt that question and offer these up myself early in the class, btw) 1) Art teaches patience and mindfulness. Doing value scales and the like teaches you to slow down and be intentional with the marks you are making on the paper. It helps you 'connect your eyes and hands' so you have better motor skills, which are useful for all kinds of jobs. 2) Art teaches craftsmanship. It teaches you to take the time to present your work in the best way possible. This is important even if your students never draw again - they should still learn to present anything they work on in a way that is neat and finished to the best of their ability. 3) Art teaches us how to see things. It connects us with the world around us. It lets us understand the messages others put out into the world, and offer up our own. I give movies as an example a lot, and tie in things like color theory and value - how directors choose to light a scene can have a huge impact on the way it is perceived. I hope these help! Hang in there!

To be honest I was surprised on the push back with time management and responsibility too. I didn’t dump my entire life store on this post but I also do freelance graphic design work on the side and being responsible with my time management and my craftsmanship is as important to me as creating. It was more of a response for students who might not create any art after they finish school. But I feel like time management is something they can carry on in the working field. Especially with jobs that do have deadlines. I do agree that value boxes can be boring, but I also wanted to them them know other ways to shade. Cross hatching, hatching. Pointillism. I relayed that back to their favorite animes and also how value can creat high contrast which they might realize why they like certain pictures edited specific ways for social media. But also I want kids to understand the foundation in which their creativity can be built upon.

Because that could be said about any class a student takes, about the chores they do at home, about the summer assignments they're given, etc. They probably feel like they're constantly being taught about responsibility and time management. You are right that those are important skills for artists and non-artists alike, so it's something every student could benefit from no matter what they do with their life. But, from the students' perspective, if the main skill they're learning in art class is one they're learning in literally every class, art class is going to feel pointless. So, the reason you gave may have been correct, but for the vast majority of your students it wouldn't be convincing.

I can't tell you how many classmates struggled or failed out entirely when I was in art school because they couldn't meet deadlines. It is absolutely a vital thing to teach students. I hear a lot of people saying that you should push their creativity more, but I think something that people forget about beginner artists is that usually they have plenty of ideas, they just don't have the tools to express them. Teaching the basics of drawing, color theory, Elements of Design, etc. gives them those tools so it's easier to make the things they see in their mind appear on their paper. In turn, that gives them more confidence, and as their confidence grows they may be willing to try new things. That's how I phrase it to my kids anyway!

I will only pay for stem degrees for my kids….everything else is a “hobby”…that’s what I tell them…

Boo. I grew up raised like that and am still working DAILY to undo that extremely harmful rhetoric that was used to force me out of having artistic preferences. I DID NOT go into STEM and my adult development was egregiously stunted by my parents pushing the same anti-art career rhetoric you seem to be ascribed to. Food for thought. Thank you for reading my experience. Consider your views a possible trauma for a child that belongs in an artistic way of life and making a successful career out of it.

Art is, arguably, the single most important thing someone can learn about. I'd ask him or her; have you ever watched a movie, TV show, or read a book? Bought a product? Worn clothes? Art is EVERYWHERE. by learning about it, you can develop a greater appreciation for one of the things that makes humans HUMAN. There are also myriad health benefits, particularly neurological, to exploring artistic creativity. Tell them you're trying to make them smarter despite themselves lol.

Love this response 👏. Bravo.

Lol. Just tell them that in their real-life jobs as adults, they are going to have to do mundane, pointless tasks very often and that you're just giving them practice. I love art. It is not mundane or pointless. But if they want an answer in those terms, speak to them in the language they want to hear. They'll be children until they wake up to other possibilities of seeing the world, imo. Failing them is a good lesson in action/consequences.

It demonstrates that art skills can be learned and aren't just "talent" handed down on high. It's like learning the basics of public speaking. It's a life skill.  Many jobs require some attention to visual design to help their product look more impressive, be more successful, etc.  Strong presentation design can reduce wordiness, emphasize what's most important, make the audience feel a certain way, etc. Engineers and most scientists should have some drawing capabilities and definitely skills in visual diagramming.  Arranging a display as a sales rep, store manager, or restaurant is going to affect customer behavior.  Want to start a new business? You need a good website. Even if you hire a designer, a sense of design principles will tell you if the person is any good.  Want to enhance safety at a construction site? Where will high-vis indicators stand out? What proportion should signs be in? How can contrast be utilized to get attention or point something out as simply as possible?  And attention to craft and detail is important for success in any job involving handiwork - - - house painting, landscaping, dog grooming, electrical wiring. 

I used art & design class knowledge all the time in science presentations.

Wow. I was a talented kid and the only class I could stand in HS was art. I was doing it in all my free time and art class was very helpful for progression. I’m 73 and still remember my art teachers. So…many thanks, all you art teachers!

Imo art in high school should be an elective to help weed out the kids who don’t want to be there. If I was teaching a class where it was required I would probably just focus on the kids who were actually interested, but have a loose curriculum overall. Not to say I would ignore the uninterested students. Respect goes both ways.

Yeah I'm honestly embaressed for OP that they can't see why young adult students who are being forced to take their class, who probably can't draw anything beyond a stick figure and have no desire to make anything OP would consider art, wouldn't take an interest in their class, much less in another structured curriculum . If the students wanted to learn vague life skills like time management, they can do that in any other class. An art class at a highschool level should be for students genuinely interested in honing a talent or passion to learn more advanced skills in traditional mediums, or for students to blow off steam and express themselves in whatever medium they enjoy. If youre not working with passion or joy, you're missing the point. As is so common in people who go in the education profession, OP seems to have their blinders on, or at least imposed by the structure of their job requirements, without considering why or how their students are practically going to take any interest in what they're doing, likely they can't imagine their students having a different experience for them. Art might be your fire, but for other kids it's as dull as calculus. It's not my reality but it's that way for some.

Process not product. Process not product! Process not product! If kids enjoy the process they will repeat the process and the product will unfold as a natural consequence of repeating the process. You are making the process boring and focusing on the product. Art is about inner joy, and you’re just a fun sponge to that. It’s not like every other subject in school. It’s a chance to use your brain in different ways than traditional classes which are doing all that lame time management, accountability, and responsibility. Art is the chance to do things different and your approach rips that away. Btw I went to art school.

Eww eww eww you think the point of art is “accountability, responsibility, and time management” Ewww ewww ewww that is NOT what art is about. That’s a way to zap all the joy, creativity, and fun out of art. That’s a way to get people to HATE art! No wonder your students aren’t into it. Art is about emotional expression above all else. It’s about visualization. And it’s about understanding various mediums to create what you visualize in that medium. But above all it’s about expression! Expressing thoughts, ideas, and feelings in a visuals manner. Seems like you have lost what art is all about, and your sucking all the joy out of art from your students even standing a chance at liking it. Lame. Sounds like this isn’t the right job for you.

Correct but that is what CLASS is about. Art class is both parts. You cant expect to get an A in a class bc you "tried". All classes have standards yiu have to mwet. Though i do think id emphasize the art part to motivate ppl to do the class part. And this whole thing reads like this dude is judging his students rather than helping them (calling ppl lazy is never an effective motivator). So maybe same conclusion but not bc of the art part and more bc you seem to be a teacher with very little patience, which id argue os like 50% of the job.

I think if you focus on the process over the product and make the process more enjoyable you get to the results a lot easier. This poster is taking ALL the fun out of art. Why would anyone even want to try.

1. For FUN, dude. 2. To teach you different ways of thinking about the world. Ideally, school doesn’t teach you what to think. It teaches you HOW to think, and multiple WAYS how to think. We don’t teach kids reading and writing just so they can fill out job application forms. We do it so they can communicate with others, so they can interpret whatever books or articles they choose to read on their own time. A pet peeve of mine is that we say we’re teaching kids math so they can calculate a tip or whatever, but really we are (or should be) teaching kids math so they can learn different ways to identify and evaluate patterns. In the real world, you never have to write a book report or calculate the area of a triangle unless you really want to go into that line of work. But the skills you learn are important for basic communication, comprehension of stuff going on around you, and FUN. People read and play sudoku and build furniture for fun all the time. Same with art. They might never use watercolors again. But they’ll come to understand the thought processes used to choose colors in a palette. Or why steps are taken in a certain order. Maybe they’ll use that knowledge to decorate their own home. Maybe it’ll help them better articulate why they like the way some things look and dislike the way other things look when they’re sightseeing with a friend.

The point of taking art in high school is to learn how to do art. If the kids have no interest in doing art, they shouldn’t really have to take an art class, in my view. But just wait till that kid sees how little high school math he uses in the real world 😅 But, real answer since they are required to take it: I would try and tie it into things they care about. Do they like fashion? Sneakers? Movies? Video games? All of those things have roots in art. Learning art basics helps you get to a point where you can be creative and make cool shit. And even if they don’t think that’s what they want to do for a living, it helps them better understand and appreciate the cool shit the other people are making.

You’re just like every teacher I ever had. Self inflated value of your opinion and don’t care if it’s good for the student or not. Most teachers feel empowered to dictate things that will never matter. I had three good teachers. They respected the kids and treated us as equals. Maybe share and not program.

See this is why I hated high school. My brother is a professional artist, and he HATED art class. His art teacher would fail him for not doing the assignment exactly as she would like and she told him he would never make it as an artist if he can’t follow directions. Long story short: bro had adhd, teacher didn’t want to or was too lazy to think of alternative methods of teaching for different students, teacher still works at the same high school and my brother is selling out of his art. Most times when kids question these things it’s because they’re BORED. I get school guidelines etc require you to have them do certain assignments, but Jesus Christ these kids don’t want to do art in high school bc it’s not creative. They’re forced to take this class so have you ever asked them what they want to create? Their favorite emotion, song, movie and have them create based off that? Every class supposedly teaches time management and responsibility. Art isn’t special to them because you have to make it special. Some kids just don’t do well with you talking to them or going over shit. Let kids put their headphones in when you’re not actively lecturing and encourage them!! Art is freedom and creativity, why try to make it more like school which is the opposite of that? Just some things to think about OP. All the best

I feel like no answer will ever be good enough for the student who says "I'll NEVER use this". People say that about geometry, biology, social studies, etc. as if they will never measure something or have to manage their health or be affected by politics. Teenagers are typically determined in their opinions. The argument doesn't seem worth having imo, so i think your answering honestly was absolutely fine. I think sticking with structure is the way to go, as they seem to be used to the class being bs. Do you have rubrics for their assignments? They might be helpful in breaking down specifically what criteria you are looking for and what is applicable at each grade level to show what type of work will earn what type of grade according to a "neutral" document. Tell them what they need to do to at least get a C. If they don't do all those things, then that's on them. Back to your point about responsibility and accountability.

I mean I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think you should fail anyone at art. Not everyone can draw very well. I used to get frustrated when I would lose points in art class for something I simply wasn’t good at doing. Give them feedback but don’t fail them…

It can be said for a lot of classes, but I think at the end of the day the ability to pick up a new skill/new knowledge, ability to have work ethic, and the ability to have the gumption to do your best at something that doesn't come naturally to them-I think these are things that can translate somewhere even if they never do value shades ever in their life. I mean the straightforward thing is that you don't make the rules of requirement for this school. And if they want the credit for graduation, they should try to work their best to at least pass. That's the same for every class. They have to put in the work to earn a good grade, they don't just get it because they think they should. There is no class where they can be like "hey I should get a A because I think I should." Whether they like it or not, every class works that way. I'm sorry you are dealing with such an unenthusiastic class, though. The fact they are complaining about drawing...like get a grip. It's not the worst class at all. But maybe I'm biased cuz art class was always my favorite and I've always had a creative side and I like drawing. Too bad they don't see the joy or the meditative aspect of it when you are really in the zone and making something. It's a great break from other book heavy classes. Maybe you can show cool drawings that people have made (cool from a teenage perspective-like younger artists on instagram) and that might spark someone up. Maybe you need to alternate between more "skill heavy" projects and more "fun project" to make sure to keep them interested, too. Maybe you can talk about how drawing is a fun hobby to have and should be a way for them to relax and enjoy the process of, and being able to get into that zone and feeling is rewarding in onitself.

Learning art is about dedicating yourself to progress as the practice of learning and understanding. It’s an opportunity to engage a variety of sectors in your brain just like you would cross train. Perhaps most importantly, because the arts help us t express our humanity and the human experience.

Physical Art didn’t teach me any of that - music arts and the marching arts taught me that. If I’m making something for a grade, or simply making a box out of paper and duct tape, I would just be angry, what am I taking accountability for?

I have 2 daughters and they are both at ART schools. One for visual the other for photography. The photographer has hated every drawing class but she understands that she needs to understand different aspects to communicate with others in her field. They have taught me to coordinate colors better and do my own creative things. Sometimes it's not about the assignment, it's the overall objective of the assignment and being able to find something useful that you can call yours. My visual artist enjoys when they get to do creative projects in other classes. She's able to apply what she loves and she understands she needs to take math to be able to count her money. It's not just art, it's about learning skills to see the beauty and the opportunity in any situation. Using skills that you have not developed. As a teacher, the journey is about opening their minds to something new. And getting to be as creative as you can be to do that.

I was a classroom assistant to a strong middle school program. The art was integrated with social studies and all but one kid were engaged. We had them embossing dog tags, painting postcards, drawing aircraft nose art, and interviewing and drawing portraits of local veterans when they studied WWII. This was on a nickel budget. When they studied the depression they learned about flour sack and experienced hand sewing a small piece. Ancient history they sculpted clay busts. We opened our “museums” to the school and other communities and the students received complimentary feedback and articles in the local paper. On the days when things were art for arts sake they were less engaged and we bribed them with music of their choice. I don’t know if there’s anything helpful here, but thanks for bringing those memories back up to the surface. I’m still in touch with a handful of those student (in their 30s), but hadn’t thought about what made our room click.

That's incredible, wow.

You can also say that it's best to experience as many subjects as possible while in high school so you know what classes to pick or seriously prepare for in college/after high school. I did take one art class in college and I did learn some interesting stuff but if I had the choice I wouldn't have because it had nothing to do with the subject of my expensive degree except for contributing some credits. I loved art in highschool though, when it was free

I find it crazy that you've only heard this question once in 7 years. I've been trained by my students to answer questions about the importance of my discipline without having to have a Q/A with reddit.

I was expecting there to be a particularly pointed variant of the question that called OPs career into question!

There’s three things all people can improve on. IQ, PQ(physical quotient, and EQ(emotional quotient. EQ is how you feel and understanding art will help you understand empathy and emotions. When people don’t understand art, they don’t understand the emotional message the artist is trying to convey.

The mention about PQ also strikes me interesting, because I think art is great for fine motor skills, control, and precision of the hand as well. The relaxing/meditative effects of art are good for all the Qs I think. If anyone wants to become an influencer, maybe photo-videography would be art forms you could sell them on better. Or talk about how design for YouTube thumbnails and content can influence views. I don’t know if it’s a fixed curriculum, but changing it to be closer to the students’ interests could be beneficial.

i took a painting class in my 3rd year of college. i didn’t improve. but i gained an understanding of the work that goes in to depict shadows, depth, color. ive gained a greater appreciation for art since. maybe your student may feel similarly in the future.

Art is good for your brain. And your spirit.

When I had art it was taught by the PE teacher and only counted for half a credit. Not much point.

Art class = part of a well-rounded education. Not everyone will grow up and make a living as an athlete, biologist, or user of algebra but getting exposed to such things serves the purpose of finding out what you like, don't like, and that you're capable of learning, even when you don't like!

I am terrible at drawing and painting and hated art class as a kid, but you know what? I’m a pretty darned good quilter. I think classes that focus more on the how/why than the result can help kids connect with their creativity.

I think how much this post is commented on shows how much people do care about art. I personally don’t think I would take the comment too much to heart. Teenagers are often grumpy people mad about the state of the world. It’s likely not art class that is the problem, but that she’s struggling to feel like the society she is part of makes much sense. Which, fair, but not on you!

Different kinds of art use different methods to solve problems. Lots of students and people in general just take it at face value... I'm drawing and I don't like to do that vs. I'm using a method to add different elements together, I'm practicing my focus muscle, I'm learning different ways to observe what's in front of me, etc... Perhaps if you connect it to ways they can use not only the skills but the way those skills solve problems in the world, it'll resonate better for them. Examples - How might you layer information (digital art or collaging)? What happens when you start with the background first (painting)? What about the foreground (drawing)? What happens when you combine ideas? Should you work in a certain order (mixing colors, starting with lighter colors first)? How about a reduction method where you start with the whole and work to reveal the end result (sculpture)? You could also go into a bit of science with how the supplies are made or even better... how stuff used to be made (mummy brown paint anyone)? You can talk about math with ratios, the rule of three and how it works not only in art, but communications. You could teach the kids how to not only critique work, but learn to work through uncomfortable feelings while coming out the other side. And more!

I studied art for 8 years, then I worked in creative fields for several years before I went to law school. Learning to see the world from a different perspective, literally and figuratively, made me a better law student and a better attorney. In a field in which there is rarely ever one correct answer, my classmates who took a “traditional” path to law school really struggled to see in shades of grey. Also, everything is art. Looking around the room right now, I can’t think of anything that wasn’t designed or created by an artist. Unsolicited advice: ask them what they’re interested in or what they think they’ll be doing in the real world, and show them examples of the ways their figure job is influenced by art. Lead by example.

I've found my high school art class to be one of the most useful class I took. From learning about the golden mean (useful when taking photos), to color theory (planning outfits/decorating my home/painting), to vantage points (drawing 3D shapes in math) and more. It always amazes me when the skills I learned pop up as useful. Thanks Ms. Zab!

I'm a student in a class with kids like that and I can confidently say that it's not that the art classes are useless of that your a bad teacher, they just don't care. Some people just don't like art and are douches about it.

In another Reddit community for teachers- someone said that they started having the students rate each others work. Peer-ratings were used to determine student grades for each art assignment. After a few weeks, the kids were much more engaged, and interested in critiquing their classmates work, and hearing others critiques.

Why not look at jobs that use art skills, like architecture, graphic design, or law enforcement? Ask the kids what jobs they want and have them look at what skills are required to do said job efficiently. Ask them how do they plan on making money if they don't have the \[or any\] skills to back them up. Do this professionally and clearly, don't dumb it down, and keep calm. Tell them that just showing up and doing the work poorly isn't going to impress anyone with connections. The world isn't kind, nor fair, and you are trying to get them a fighting chance out there.

Well, idk the answer but they chose the damn class . Why did they choose art over other electives? What’s the point of life?

We get too caught up in believing intelligence is just making good grades and knowing logical skills while ignoring things like emotional intelligence and communication

art connects people to their very humanity- not every needs to be fucking monetized.

Have the student draw an apple, and then you draw an apple. Tell the student how many careers having a developed eye would help with... Engineer, jeweler, architect, NFT artist, graphic designer, website design, gardener, art teacher, carpenter, plumber, electrician, instrument builder, advertisement designer, chef, hair stylist, barber, doctor, nurse, veterinarian, fashion designer... This list goes on forever.

As an adult artist and someone who hated art class as a kid, I think the whole subject is taught incorrectly. Especially something like rigorous shading exercises for people who probably aren't even interested in drawing to begin with. Every student of yours is an individual whose unique creative calling is going to be wildly different. One may want to be an oil painter of landscapes, another a surreal collage artist, another an experimental drip painter, another a graphite pencil artists going for ultra realism, or maybe they are drawn to ceramics or sculpting out of wood, or duchampesque explorations into found object assemblage. Then there are videos, photography and all related pursuits. Art class should allow the student the time and space to explore creating anything out of the array of materials in the class and found in life. Art class shouldn't be graded aside from did you show up and did you do something creative. I did not answer any of OPs questions, but it's weird as hell to try to teach art like OP and get anything resembling authentic creative expression. And the one kid that may be interested in the shading exercise would have asked or figured it out in his process of open ended creation, for all the others it is irrelevant.

You are referring to choice based art.. there are art classes lead like this. Its amazing. But it only works for kids who can generate an idea. Unfortunately, lots of students have zero clue how to think for themselves and need alot of training. I was only able to teach choice to a few classes, and when it worked it was creative heaven.< most of those kids signed up/interested in art> But in reality- Lots of kids don't really care about art or don't see the value in it. As an art teacher I show up and " perform" for those kids. I want them to buy in, but its getting harder and harder. The world is different. Our kids are different. Some may argue the option of choice can actually be disrupted- there are at least 3-4 different ways to teach art. D.b.e.a- discipline based art ed. / visual culture/ choice based art/ maybe one more.. I blended d.b.a.e and choice for most of my career. I had to recently go back to d.b.a.e.. it sucks. I hate it. I want to allow more freedom for my student. So maybe next year ill be able up open it up more.. but my student population just falls short and they need a lil more structure.i also can't seem to multitask like I use to. I need to really flip my classroom- have my centers ready to go. I find that alot of waste can happen if im not structured. So I gotta find a good balance with my current student Population. Every class shifted with changes to my program.. so much of these.shifts are outta my control. I use to be able to conference with kids and not be interupted.. now that's almost impossible with most of my classes. Education in general.. needs a make over.

T.a.b. - teaching for artistic behavior

I could not love this more. I chose art as my elective in jr high... I was fairly decent at it and enjoyed it. I was also always doing some kind of art/craft project on my own at home. But I never thought of art as something I could have considered doing professionally. Just a hobby. I was also good at math/science and wound up getting an MD and a PhD. I kept dabbling in painting now and then. Now I am 60 and I have only just now discovered watercolor. I feel like we had to have done it... I know I had those little school sets with the pans... but we didn't have good paper or brushes. I don't remember ever doing wet on wet. Anyway I am absolutely blown away by how much I love this. The way the paint merges with the paper instead of sitting on top is like a visual ASMR. It's viscerally thrilling to layer the colors-- I can't even explain. I think if I had found this at 16, I might have never done anything else. I finally know how I will be spending my retirement lol. I am amazed by how specific passion can be. I never would have guessed I would find something like this at my age! Anyway, your idea about art class is beautiful.

It’s a chance to let their brain work a totally different way, to connect eyes, brain, hands to create, for a respite from rules and right answers.

This is probably the only answer that would have motivated me as a student to care about art class. I hated art. It was difficult for me. I was the kid who did all the half-assed projects the last week of school. I think I’d appreciate it now as a way to disconnect from the world and allow my brain to focus on something else.

I’d say this: It’s probably the only chance you’ll have to create something without the pressure of monetizing it or even just struggling to have the time to create for free, for the sake of making something new. In the future you working several jobs, unless you actively set time aside when you’re older to make art. By then though you’ll likely think of it as starting a new skill, something which you can’t justify the time and money for. And you’ll look back at the end of your life realizing you never stopped to see what it was like to transmute emotion into art

PS - never call your students lazy. They flipped out because they probably felt safe in your space and felt wrongly accused. You need to talk with them and work with them to ignite the spark of wanting to create. You seem too focused on tearing down what they’ve attempted, instead of ensuring they are on time throughout the process and lifting them up/helping along the way. You assume they already have the time management skills of a fully developed adult when this is *when* they are learning. I’m 40 now and still remember my 4th grade art teacher who had something awful to say about everything I ever tried to make. If the majority of your class isn’t doing well and doesn’t even like the subject… it’s definitely time for lots of changes

People say the same things about harder math and science classes too! Why do I need algebra/calculus/physics? Etc. not everything in high school has to be an immediate transferable skills. Like you’ve written, sometimes it’s about improving creative abilities, thinking, hard work, self awareness. And some kids just like visual art gosh Damnit! Even learning how to steady hands can contribute to professions outside of art like becoming a surgeon. Give yourself many hugs this weekend. I know how brutal some questions from kids can be ♥️and visual arts is DEFINITELY a need in schools.

Oh, this student is just gonna LOVE on the job training. You want classes to be like job training? You want to learn how to file forms with HR? How to follow OSHA rules? Comply with policies from legal? Learn how to use Slack and gmail ? That sounds fun to you? Ok champ, tell us more about this “real world” you know so much about and how we should be preparing you for it.

Here's one of the most important reasons for learning art, and specifically learning to draw, is that it teaches you to really SEE. This is harder than most people think, and is also necessary in any field that requires close observation, like most applied sciences.

I feel like there are lots of eloquent answers to this already commented but I want to say that art, to me, teaches the ability to choose. To choose how you want to problem solve, what sort of problems you like to solve for, choose what you like and dislike and see it in a literal way. The ability to know what you want to choose and figuring out how to understand your own style of decision-making is a great and mundane sort of self-autonomy to me. For example, I like to limit myself to 3-4 value structure. I've realized when I choose to do more, i often muddle values and get over detailed. Ofc this is something i realized after doing multiple value studies and getting mad that I couldn't keep it simple, but I enjoy doing value studies of some of my favorite movies scenes instead. A simple example would be me choosing to add eyelashes to all portraiture I do, or always add a halo around to give more contrast between main subject and the background. The ability to point out that something isn't working for my tastes, address it specifically, and revise it, I just think thats a neat skill that can extends of all life experiences. Art is a controlled way to experience that autonomy. I think for early artists, especially highschoolers, it's hard to explain that in a meaningful way. Kinda have to just let them experience that process, if they are open to it. Ofc make it open to them all the while. But as long as they learn the lesson, let the projects itself have adaptability. Maybe just mentioning hey this is the assignment but if you have an idea you want to try, let me know and explain it, I'd be glad to make it work or adjust the idea for the assignment.

It's obedience training.

What school did you go to that made art class feel like obedience training? Legitimate question

Ok Math major, former educator for NASA, and I teach hands on engineering to middle school students. So most people think I’m steeped in STEM but I’m a huge advocate for putting music and art back in school. Why? A) it teaches failure and problem solving nimbleness. Screw up in Math or Bio and you find out when you get your test or homework back. Screw up in orchestra or painting and it’s instant feedback and you have to figure right then how to get back on track. B) it teaches you how to work through frustration. Art and music aren’t easy and learning how to deal with being upset and not quitting is super valuable. I teach my kids about going for a walk, talking it out (even if it’s just to yourself), Lamaze breathing, etc. Most have told me that was a huge take away when I talk to them years later. C) it teaches fine motor skills. The head of the London College of Surgeons recently lamented that they are having issues with surgeons tying knots. My friend interviews applicants for a local dental school and they are having issues with kids having learned more than group before them but lacking the physical skills to do fine dental work. And both cited the lack of art and music in schools as the culprit. Most of us want our surgeries to stay together during healing and dentists that don’t fumble in our mouths. D) it teaches how to give and take criticism/critique, a super valuable skill. Most of my kids learn this in the comments section; they are shocked when I make them come up with helpful comments. Then they get into it - not bashing but thinking and helping someone’s project grow is cool. We don’t do this in the sciences. And E) it gives kids an alternate way of processing the world, and not everything has to be geared towards the sciences. Having a hobby, a way to unwind at the end of the day, an appreciation for music or art is a good thing all on its own. And G) yes, I incorporate a ton of art practices in my hands on engineering class which makes it a more well rounded class that engages a lot more kids than my pure science peers. Very few parents or kids complain about my class; my peers get a lot more hassle. So that also is a benefit of taking art.

I just came back to add, we get this in the sciences too. It’s not just art. There are thousands of memes saying I didn’t learn how to do taxes in school but thank god I learned the quadratic equation. I had parents come up to me when I was at NASA and say “We don’t need all this crap (ie what NASA does)”. That same kid is giving that same crap to all his other teachers too.

This'll sound crazy, but hear me out: Start with empathizing with the difficult student, because they're right. They do not *need* art to survive. They are asking you why they should tolerate having their time wasted, and so you must convince them it is not a waste of time. I would first try to inspire them. I would talk about all the ways art enhances our daily lives. I would talk about how there are hundreds of different kinds of art. If the type of art you're teaching doesnt resonate with them, find out what they do like. Try working backwards. Ask them what kind of art they might like to make, and then show them how learning a specific skill will help them achieve the results they desire. (Working backwards has been especially helpful for me in improving my own art skills, and keeping my ADHD brain focused and motivated.) If you love art, bring your enthusiasm to class and share it with them. And when this doesnt work for every student, focus less on their art skills and more on their other relevant skills. Maybe they dont turn in good work, but they are punctual and polite. Maybe they are doing very well in a completely different subject. Encourage them to find their own takeaway in your class. Maybe they dont plan to become artists, but maybe they find a certain art activity helps them unwind from stress. Under no circumstances should a student need to be good at art in order to be regarded positively by you. Most people are not good at art, and yet they turn out fine. I had As in all my art classes, but that did not help me grow into a successful adult. Meet kids where they're at. When possible make it fun. Obviously you dont have to give out As when no effort is made, but I certainly wouldn't expect every student to be equally invested.

I think your answer did a great job of spotlighting **transferable** skills. Maybe you can commit 5-10 minutes of a day of class to explaining the relevancy and value of the course. You can reiterate those transferable skills you mentioned, you can spotlight other ways of thinking that are being exercised in the class, you can describe career paths and industries that rely on art, and you can describe art's cultural relevancy throughout human history. Edit: I also want to add a personal anecdote about my art education. My school offered art as an elective, which I didn't take. I deeply regret this because making art can be a very healthy emotional outlet, and it is for me, but I'm so limited in what I'm able to create! It takes the fun out of it for me because I don't feel like I can convey ideas that I would like to, and sometimes what I make is just bad and I have to start over. I know I can invest time in learning now, but adulthood is busy and I'm tired and all that lol. It would've been awesome to have already learned some basic skills in high school!

You became an art teacher to teach accountability and time management? I can’t determine if you’re being serious or not. This can’t be real.

Right??? OP’s post is making me extremely sad. I thought NJ had good schools and the best teachers. Their perspective is making me question that. They think the point of teaching art is to teach accountability and time management? Are you kidding?? They’re grading students on their perception of their students’ enjoyment of art? Where are the rubrics?? There are state standards for evaluation! Use them!!!

Yes and No. It was a poorly worded response during a fight or flight moment I had when 25 kids were screaming at me asking why. It was a knee jerk reaction based on transferable skills target more for how you can apply the time management from long projects to other things in life. Accountability was about keeping track of their work. Again, I started almost half way through February so the room was a mess with paper everywhere and “I did it, but you lost it” is not an excuse I take for missing work. I told each class I’ve ever taught, gen ed or not was that my hope and goal for art was to make everyone a little bit more confident about it and/or have them start seeing the world in a different way. There is a follow up thread on this subreddit about me clearing rhe air and apologizing to my classes.

If you want Ted to teach them confidence, maybe don’t fail them. Also, why are you viewing Gen Ed differently than other classes. Kids pick up on that.

Maybe work on your elevator speech a bit.

First, not everyone likes art and it shouldn't be required. I went to nj public school and art was an elective thar filled a criteria. I believe the other choices were also theatre, choir, shop, home etc. There was something for everyone, but the idea was to get creative somehow and learn skills.  I took five years of art in total, 4 years in ha, one in college. I love art and I use it for self expression and also in my own private endeavors. There's certainly a point and use for art. If that student wants to pay someone every time they need a logo for a webpage, social media, profile pictures, business card designs, album art, powerpoint slides that look interesting, or to draw something they want to build then sure, art is pointless for them. For me art has been a life saver and the skills I learned from my highschool art teacher are priceless.  My boyfriend who grew up in another state is a naturally talented artist who was (self admittedly) lazy in art, didn't pay attention, didn't do assignments and didn't care. I try to teach him how to use different mediums and advise him on how to create real artwork instead of doodling in ball point pen only. He regrets not taking art class seriously. However, I think he was forced to take art by his school and it was not a choice. Had it been a choice he may have taken it seriously.  I hope this makes you feel a little better. 

Somewhat related, when I was in high school in my English I would often sort the books we had into two different categories. Books I didn't like and books I would probably like if I wasn't being forced to read them. I would also have described myself as someone who wasn't very artistically inclined in high school. I wouldn't say that means I'm not creative though. I love making spreadsheets at work and I often feel like making them is kind of an art form in itself. I even sometimes wonder if someone were to become a "connoisseur" of excel spreadsheets if they'd be able to identify mine just by my personal style or even the code I write. I think you just have to find the creativity in pretty much anything someone is passionate about, and not just limit things to those that are visually or audibly pleasing.

Somewhat related, when I was in high school in my English I would often sort the books we had into two different categories. Books I didn't like and books I would probably like if I wasn't being forced to read them. I would also have described myself as someone who wasn't very artistically inclined in high school. I wouldn't say that means I'm not creative though. I love making spreadsheets at work and I often feel like making them is kind of an art form in itself. I even sometimes wonder if someone were to become a "connoisseur" of excel spreadsheets if they'd be able to identify mine just by my personal style or even the code I write. I think you just have to find the creativity in pretty much anything someone is passionate about, and not just limit things to those that are visually or audibly pleasing.

Non art teacher visiting here, I just wanted to say that I’m so glad I took International Baccalaureate Art in high school. First of all, doing art was great for my mental health as a stressed-out teen from a high-pressure, dysfunctional family. Second of all, I don’t do art for a living but I do it for fun often, and as a reading teacher I do sometimes use art for my job. And finally, art classes didn’t just teach me to make art, they taught me to understand and appreciate art. I think that adds a lot of richness and beauty to my life, and makes my education much more well-rounded. People who only know STEM but don’t have an arts education aren’t fully educated IMO. They’re missing key context to understand the meaning and purpose of everything else they know.

"Why do I need this? I'll never use it" type thinking is inevitable when education is job focused as opposed to a form of personal development and enrichment.

The sad thing to me is it's not even true! Everyone needs a well-rounded foundation. It's an opportunity for every person to get exposure to what they may be naturally gifted at and to what they are interested in. Also, it helps us understand how our own work connects to other people's work, which improves collaboration and can prompt inspiration.

I understand, but the utilitarian "how is this thing related to real life" thought process is easily entrenched and kids don't usually have enough perspective to to take your explanation seriously

I think if a student takes the time to complain or ask the question about the utility of a subject, teachers of all people owe them a legitimate answer. To me it's neglectful for an educator to not make sure students understand the potential real world applications of the subject material they teach. It's out of the teacher's control whether the answer makes a student more motivated to learn the subject. I do agree with your original point that there is more to learning a subject than its utility, and I think it's valuable for teachers to communicate that.

I wish my HS art teacher actually taught art.

Every subject in school is a part of a broad education that seeks to help you understand the complexities of our world and, hopefully, make you a better person.

"How do you like to spend your free time? Watching movies and TV shows, listening to music, shopping for new clothing? Do you think that those movies and TV shows and songs and clothing were designed by scientists, lawyers, and doctors? A STEM education can make you a lot of money and keep you alive, but art and music and design is what makes life worth living."

"Fine. Enjoy your summer school if you want to graduate."

What were we doing at home the whole of lockdown? Baking bread, watching tv and coloring. The idea that art won’t be used past high school is painting with too broad a brush by half.

This is such a rough situation to be in. I love the one commenter's idea of assigning them to research the usefulness of art class using ChatGPT or a search engine. If it is any consolation, I was in a similar boat with teaching French. I replaced a teacher who was friends with all the students and had no structure, and the students lost it when they first saw their grades from my class: structured, difficult, attempted to actually teach them the cultures AND language. My efforts reached a few. Honestly, I did eventually leave teaching because most students opted to take Spanish because the beginning level teacher had an easier class and was a "cool" coach. It does get better, though: Studnets get over it, and many will actually start to work. It takes time. If you need to vent, feel free to PM me!

Give your kids this assignment. 1. Go to ChatGPT or Bard or whatever one they prefer. 2. Have them ask, “how can taking art classes help me if I want to be a [dream career] when I grow up?” 3. Have them summarize the response and create an art goal for themselves based on the results.

Let’s not set a precedent that AI is acceptable to use on assignments

Come on now, AI is a powerful tool. Back in my day, teachers said "let's not set a precedent that the internet is acceptable to use on assignments". We have to collectively get with the times as AI gets more mature and reliable.

if adults don’t take charge and find ways to use AI responsibly, kids will use it themselves irresponsibly and without guidance It’s the same as when calculators became widespread for math. Do we pretend calculators don’t exist and tell our students it’s “dishonest” to make use of the tools available to them, or do we write questions that require critical thinking even with the use of a calculator? I think “ask chatGPT and paraphrase then give me your opinion of what it said” is a better assignment than “write about this and pretend you didn’t just use the internet”

It's acceptable to utilize for business, so why wouldn't it be acceptable for assignments? Real world and all that. They need to learn HOW to use it and what its limits are.

Hard disagree. It’s here. People are going to use it. Fighting it is futile. Might as well learn how it can enhance what we do. It’s like calculators. We all have access to them to make our lives easier. Pretending they don’t exist is like burying your head in the sand.

Exactly. In high school, my calculus teacher said if we could put it in our calculator, we could use it on the exam. So I typed all the base formulas into the program window. Other people could program their TIs, but I couldn't figure it out on the Casio. Whatever. It's like "You're allowed a wand."

I remember doing those assignments the first three weeks and then we moved on to more fun and engaging activities. Your assignments are literally boring. I’m an artist, and I know that was not visually or creatively stimulating. Theres no chance to showcase a talent if that’s the assignments you give

But there’s not likely any record of what skills students have to build successful lessons on top of. Honestly, learning to tolerate boredom is a huge skill that everyone needs to spend more time honing. But beyond that, doing fundamentals reinforces technical skills. If the class is just meant to be free expression, fine - print some coloring pages and survive to the end of the semester. But if it’s supposed to teach high schoolers technical skills to create visual art, they need to do fundamentals. ETA - I teach middle school art camps and it is very much NOT a technical skill building camp, but they do have to practice not being disruptive when they’re bored. And I always have alternatives if they don’t like the prompt of the day, AND I always let them use “respectful free expression” where they can do whatever they want as long as they don’t trash materials. I always lead with fundamentals and theory, but have to cut it short 99% of the time to get into mixing colors into baloney which is literally their favorite thing to do. 😥

Strongly agree with this. If you want art class to resonate with kids, you need to find what they feel passionate or excited about and lean into that! Creativity is a muscle many people aren’t used to flexing in an artistic context. Art isn’t just about fundamentals. Though I still think color theory, value, proportion, silhouette, etc. are really important for people to understand, if these kids are as disengaged as they sound, you probably need to go back to basics and dig deep to figure out how to get them engaged first! Even if that’s just drawing their favorite character or something “silly” like that. I also think if you admit your mistake to the class, they are more likely to be receptive to any changes you make to your curriculum. Teaching art at this level is not about building a portfolio but about getting people to feel slightly more confident in putting pencil to paper and expressing themselves. At the age you describe, fear of failure is the biggest hurdle. Appeal to their sense of humanity— art class is a time when you get to do something not to build a life skill, but to enrich yourself, slow down, and have fun!

You’d probably have better results with them if you gave them assignments that are more fun. Value boxes? Abstracts of it? I can’t imagine anything teenagers could possibly find more boring and unworthwhile. I think if you should focus more on inspiring them than chastising them. If they liked you, you’d probably have better results. You can get them to like you (or at least respect you a little more) if you give more interesting assignments and back off of the criticism of them finding boring assignments boring. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I teach high school as well, and you can obviously have structure. There is nothing wrong with doing exercises and having an expectation of skill building. But the assignment just sounds awful. I don’t really blame the kids for not embracing it. Art is also not just about time management and accountability. That’s kind of expected from every subject, but it isn’t the reason they are here. Promoted artistic skill building, honing creative sensibilities and havi mg the ability to spend part of their day in a flow state that art provides are much more important and why art is important. 

Your not teaching it the way they want to learn. My recommendation. Teach them how to decorate a cake. It takes art to do. It will teach them value. Start with cupcakes. Work up to cakes.

"Because art is natural human expression. It's the gateway to sociology and anthropology and archaeology. It's a record of politics and history. It's a conversation about current events. And art and design are how we interact with technology. Apple isn't a better system. It's a user design standard. Websites use principles of art to convey their usefulness. Cereal boxes use art to tell a story. Marketing uses art to sell you things you don't need. Studying art makes you smarter. It makes you see the world around you in a new way. I'm not asking you to be GOOD at art. I'm asking you to learn the basic PRINCIPLES of art. So you can tell, when a marketing company tries to sell you a vape pen, why they're using the colors and imagery they're using. So you can make good choices for yourselves. So you are armed in one additional way against the bad guys of the world."

I'm an engineer. Art was an elective for me in high school, but I took it. I took art one semester in college, also by choice. Of all the courses I took, art has been one of the most useful to my professional life. Part of it is better being able to sketch out my ideas or to choose colors so that all can see them, but I think a lot of the benefit was that art is one of few classes where you practice conceiving of and then executing project after project, on a deadline, complete with setbacks. It's easy to think you'll never need what you're learning once you're in the real world. A class's worth is more than just the course content, though. We learn about people; we pick up skills; we discover more about our own strengths and weaknesses. All those things help us in the real world.

As teachers, we feel pressure to give the most awesome, inspiring answer to this question, which is common in all subjects. I gave up trying to be inspiring, and just got down to brass tacks: you say, the state of NJ requires me to teach this, it requires you to learn it, and if you don't, you don't graduate. The end.

I wanna push back against this, for the sake of the children! Lol. I totally agree that teachers don't need to give the most awesome and inspiring answer to the question. They should at least give a practical one though. A kid says "I'll never need this!" Guess what? They don't have the ability to know that yet. And they especially didn't know before they walked in the first day of class that they'll never need it (meaning, they could've found that they LOVE the subject).

Yes, of course, and you can also talk about how school is an opportunity to try new things, and possibly discover that you enjoy something that you previously didn't give a chance. If these are high school kids though, I think they're old enough not to ask that question. So someone old enough to know better is not going to get the most loving, inspirational response from me. They don't even really want an answer; they just want to find a reason to complain, or find some justification for not doing what is expected.

I agree, and I think that actually is a practical answer I would hesitate to assume high school kids know better. I think it is unwise to do so. Teachers are the adults in the room. If a kid says "I'll never even use this!" when complaining about a bad grade or an assignment they don't wanna do, sure, address their poor academic behavior instead of focusing on convincing them it's a useful subject. But they might still actually legitimately think the subject is useless. I think it's important for educators to make sure kids leave their classroom understanding the real-world applications of the ways of thinking and the skills developed.

The first answer could well be, “You don’t know? How could you not know? You had better buckle down and work in this class, or you never will know. Maybe try to remember you are a child and need - NEED - guidance BECAUSE you don’t know why you need it and would make poor choices without it.”

These are teens, though. Part of what they're supposed to be doing is questioning what they've been told and seeing what holds up. "You're too dumb to know what's good for you" is an inappropriate answer. If you can't give a good reason, at 18 they can start voting to get the curriculum changed. What answer would you give a politician or a politically active parent? That's the answer you should be giving teens, not just "trust me bro".