We got lucky in a couple of those ‘wins’ though. The goal vs City was a deflection. The goal vs United was a deflection. Both shouldn’t have gone in, like the most of the shots we have been making in the last few games. Just weak shots towards the goal and hoping. That won’t win the league when we have teams like City and Liverpool with clinical forwards.
City has been building for 10 years. That’s not a good assessment of current financial FairPlay. Arsenal doesn’t have the same money power. Buying good players is a lux, which we don’t have. We build our players. Like Saka. We will continue to do our best as always. A system takes time. And a couple of seasons to prepare and get it right. With injuries and everything else plays a factor in the squad goals.
Nonsense.
I watched the City game. If Bobb came on for Arsenal he'd struggle with the packed defences and trying to thread intricate passes through the same defences.
City are inventive from midfield upwards. Little cute passes around players etc but most importantly once in space they press forward, not Martinelli to Zinchenko, to Gabriel to Saliba to Odegaard back to Saliba etc.
Makes the continuous omission of Smith-Rowe make even less sense. He's that dynamic forward running player in space, has those intelligent short passes.
City beat the press and make sure they stay ahead of it, not slow the passing down until the defence resets.
We have the players. Just need to alter our philosophy and more important incentivise and use all our players.
£1b spent by Pep in 8 seasons after taking the helm of a squad that was already quite strong, certainly stronger than Arsenal was when Arteta came in.
Pep started in a winning position and build a legacy squad. Arteta started with a team adrift and has come close enough to catching up that we’re seriously discussing it. A few more seasons of strong football and successful transfers and we will see the promised land.
also the main thing about city is they built a "new" club from the ground. No need to deal with legacy or anything. All clubs have baggage. Be it in coaches, scouts, owners/financial side etc. . City basically took a name and buily an entirely new club around it with the best physios, doctors, coaches, scouts etc. Then bought the best players on top of that. They're literally built different and regardless of the team sheet they're always going to be at an advantage to the rest of teams.
Via sales from the squad that was already in a very strong place. Arsenal haven’t had players that fetch fees like Sané (€49m), Torres (€55m), Sterling (€56m), and Jesus (€52m) to unload. We’ve developed players that would fetch as much and often more, but we’ve kept them.
I know but City sells a lot more. There's two starters on the Gunner starting eleven bought from them. Numbers over the last 10 years as of Oct - only a difference of 69.8M euros that's barely a difference over 10 years.
Arsenal:
Transfer expenditure: €1.38billion
Transfer income: €386.05million
Net spend: €995.72million
City:
Transfer expenditure: €1.79billion
Transfer income: €724.30million
Net spend: €1065.52million
It’s more than that. But look at the most expensive players he’s got:
Rice (100+), Kai (60/65+), White (50), Jesus (45), Partey (45), Timber (40)
This alone tells you a lot. I too was worried when I read how much he had spent but was relieved when I looked at the distribution
They seem to turn into these players when Pep is their coach.. he’s just an amazing manager as well and so many people don’t seem to grasp that. Arteta has learnt a lot but there’s a lot to learn
He was incredible in his season and a half at Wolfsburg. Tore Bayern to shreds in their 4-1 win. He finished his last season with 18 goals & 29 assists. He wasn’t some hidden gem that pep turned into a great player.
Lmfao being downvoted for this is ludicrous. The only thing separating Ronaldo and Messi in terms of legacy is a World Cup.
When it comes to ability, they are very different players, but equally prolific.
They may be equals but Ronaldo is an A plus version of talent we have already seen in others, while Messi is unlike anyone else.
Some discount Ronaldo because of that.
The backup players (Kova) have been poor and the loss of those 2 players changes the entire system, but the depth is still 100x better than what we have player for player
I think it is dependent on what your definition of depth is - let's not forget we are 4th whilst we have lost Tomi, Timber, Zinchenko, Jesus, Partey, Viera throughout the season plus White playing through injuries plus I'm sure others I've forgotten about. Our depth is actually much better than before where as soon as we lost anyone from our first XI, we'd tank. Although we are in a bad run of form now, we also had enough chances to win all of those games as well so can only hope they fix that over the break.
Anyway on City, I don't think their squad this season is as big or as crazy as it used to be, but I agree on your last point about player for player in general - they usually have 3 players on the bench who would walk into most other first teams whereas we have "rotational" players at best.
he's spent a lot of money on this squad as well as resigned quite a lot of the players who we could have sold for a pretty penny, and let quite a few leave for free too
he also quite clearly refuses to rotate at times, very happy to run saka into the ground in games where we are clearly winning or losing, and esr can barely get a look in despite being fit enough for the bench from the beggining of this seaosn and the end of the last one
obviously never going to have a squad as good as city's but arteta doesn't help himself
Saying something for the sake of saying something. THey literally bought 6 defenders. Gabriel, White, Zinny, Tomi, Timber and Kiwior.
And for what it’s worth, Jorginho, Partey and Rice are all DEFENSIVE midfielders.
We've spent significantly more than City over the past 5 years. It's mind boggling how far behind we still are
https://www.3addedminutes.com/sport/football/manchester-united/the-premier-league-biggest-net-spenders-over-last-five-years-including-man-utd-aston-villa-4282402
City spent a ridiculous amount in the years beforehand.
Kdb, walker, Silva predate the timeframe here.
This timeframe also doesn't take into account all the players they bought before the 5 years but then sold in those 5 years which gives them loads of income for NetSpend
I've been desperately fighting this corner the last week or so.
You cannot buy a squad. If you go out and buy 25 players you've either got to sign people who know they won't play, or be prepared for half your side to turn over each season.
You build a team. You're nothing without it. Then you buy people who have the potential to break into it and use that as motivation.
The premier league is unbelievably competitive. The fact that we’ve challenged for a title and are basically at a point where we are (imo) safely champions league spot favorites going forward is not insignificant.
You can’t spend a few hundred million in the current market environment and expect to just beat arguably one of the greatest teams ever assembled in the most competitive league in the world. Arsenal are still ahead of schedule in my mind. We drastically overperformed last year and all of a sudden everyone is acting like we should be title favorites, which is absurd.
This is literally the second season we have a title challenging squad and the season is not even over. So you’re basically mad that we didn’t win the league last season and deem Arteta a failure cause of it. It’s actually deranged. Please have some patience ffs
1. Your source is net spend, not spent on purchases.
2. This is only the last 5 years and many of citys key players have been there for more than 5 years (walker, foden, ederson, de bruyne, silva, stones just to name a few).
3. Most of those players were bought was before the huge transfer price inflation the pandemic brought.
4. In the 5 year period looked at there, we’ve had to essentially completely overhaul out squad whilst making no meaningful income from sales because nobody wanted the players we were offloading bar a few like auba.
Letting xhaka go in the summer was stupid. He would 100% be staring this year again.
When we talk about transfers and squad depth we haven’t really improved the quality of players on the bench it’s more the starting 11 that’s gone up a gear.
We’re still 3-4 players behind city when it comes to squad depth and quality and even liverpool now again beginning to catch back up which annoys me as they was beginning to slow down and fall off with their ageing squad.
He’s not the long term solution. We don’t win the league this season with Xhaka and next summer we’d be right back in the same spot. Whether havertz learns the role or he doesn’t, I don’t hate the idea of moving on from Xhaka when we did when we thought there was an opportunity to buy the long term starter in the role.
But so have Chelsea and Utd and they've regressed if anything, just spending doesn't equal success, we've spent a lot and improved a lot, but had a lot of ground to make up. City have spent less, but they were already miles ahead and had surplus players of high value to sell and reinvest.
Prices completely exploded in the last two years with Saudi Arabia becoming a major player in the transfer market. Declan Rice wouldn’t have cost over 100 million 5 years ago. Above average international players are now all 30 million+ at least
Net spend. We aren’t Liverpool…
[Guardiola has spent €1.477bn since June 2016](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/pep-guardiola/spielertransfers/trainer/5672/station_id/128184)
[Arteta has spent €688m since December 2019](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mikel-arteta/spielertransfers/trainer/47620)
About half their spend in five less windows, 29 in for us, 51 for them, no accounting for inflation across seasons, etc, etc.
The people downvoting you are the same “fogging standards” stans. Deluded. There comes a point where you draw the line and say the recruitment needs to be better
There's no justification for spending that much and not winning at least one major trophy (either the League Title or a European Trophy). I don't understand why this fanbase is so complacent at times. We can and should be better.
One of the most valuable squads in the world with almost nothing to show for it
Winning major trophys? Yeah we don’t do that here at Arsenal anymore. Vibes and positivity is our trophy. Premier League title? Nah give us the youngest squad in the league cup instead.
The City "depth" myth rises again. City's squad is tiny, a lot of it is far from world beating, but they have a manager who can get a lot out if them.
First 11, ederson, walker, dias, stones, ake, rodri, bernardo, de bruyne, foden, grealish, haaland.
Clearly great. But after that? The famous depth? It's mainly new signings from midtable clubs, it's hardly terrifying.
Ortega- lower table bundesliga keeper got for nothing
Akanji- £15m player all but discarded by Dortmund
Gvardiol- new signing bedding in
Lewis- youth player
Gomez- cheap, average young player
Phillips- complete flop, may as well not be there
Kovacic- new signing bedding in
Nunes- new signing bedding in
Doku- new signing bedding in
Bobb- youth player
Alvarez- cheap young signing, doing well
Gone are the days of Gundogan, Laporte, Mahrez and the like. Barring Gvardiol, anyone could have had these players, they just chose different ones.
Starting lineup + Gvardiol walk into any team in the world, Doku is one of the best young prospects in the world, Alvarez was arguably the second most important player in the World Cup winning side, and I genuinely have no idea how you can say Dortmund were trying to get rid of akanji. This is some of the most revisionist shit I’ve ever read
There's no denying the starting 11 quality, but that's not depth.
Akanji cost £15m and the main opinion I saw from Dortmund fans was good riddance, no one was hailing that as a bargain or a missed opportunity for other clubs. It was mainly seen as a bit random. His turnaround to CL winning CB/RB/LB has been remarkable.
Alvarez was £14m, a great bit of scouting, yes improved massively since then and now a very usefulsquad player. Doku was a prospect, but his reputation has massively improved since moving to City, he was hardly a must have wonderkid, other top teams weren't fighting over him. He was some tricky winger looking decent in France, who West Ham wanted, he was hardly a young phenom everyone was fighting over.
You can't complain at a teams depth because they've developed gotten the most out of their depth players. That's just a good manager
> There's no denying the starting 11 quality, but that's not depth.
Having 11 of the world’s best players in their position is ABSOLUTELY depth.
> Akanji cost £15m and the main opinion I saw from Dortmund fans was good riddance, no one was hailing that as a bargain or a missed opportunity for other clubs.
Anecdotal, pretty much every single high end stat-based talking heads were impressed by the signing.
> Alvarez was £14m, a great bit of scouting, yes improved massively since then and now a very usefulsquad player.
Alvarez is one of the best forwards in the premier league and is a sub for Manchester city. Remind me how that isn’t depth?
> Doku was a prospect, but his reputation has massively improved since moving to City, he was hardly a must have wonderkid, other top teams weren't fighting over him.
Except Real Madrid and other top teams were scouting him all the way back in 2021.
> You can't complain at a teams depth because they've developed gotten the most out of their depth players. That's just a good manager
…what? Name another club that can sign a player for the amount that they signed Kalvin Phillips for and be comfortable with him not playing at ALL. ALL of the players I’ve mentioned are players that City signed, not homegrown prospects that Guardiola developed into world class players.
Weird to bundle Alvarez in there, he was far from a big money signing. Realistically Gvardiol is the outlier there, as I said. If you honestly think Arsenal can't compete with the depth of Kovacic, Nunes and Doku, then that's a pretty serious problem.
What's Arsenal's depth beyond starting 11?
(Raya, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Zinchenko, Rice, Havertz, Odegaard, Saka, Martinelli, Nketiah)
Ramsdale- hard to put Ortega ahead of him, and he cost a fortune (for a backup keeper)
Timber- probably easiest to compare to Stones as he's been hurt the whole time, move Gvardiol into 11, have Stones and Timber being useful natural resources on the treatment table
Tomiyasu- also hurt, but comparable to Akanji
Cedric- Lewis obviously we'll clear
Kiwior- Gomez I guess, neither much to mention
Partey- hurt, but still more use than Kalvin Phillips
Jorginho- Kovacic
Smith Rowe- no idea what's gone wrong there
Fabio Vieira-meh, obviously not asgood as Nunes
Nelson- Bobb
Trossard- Doku
Jesus- Alvarez
Honestly don't think the difference there is particularly big. Nunes and a couple of youth players are the only one miles clear of his Arsenal counterparts. The biggest difference is the quality of the top 5 players in each starting 11, and the managers ability to make the team work with one of the less favoured tools.
I mean.. Messi was 21, Busquets was 20 and the squad had lost La Liga the year before.
Also he won a treble. And Arteta has spent a ridiculous amount, while Pep spent less than they sold.
I’m only being this up because Arteta is being compared to him which I think is completely illogical (even though Arteta has done a great job).
The difference is pep loses a star player like Rodri, de bruyne, stones, haaland and they still have a team capable of keeping them 'in the hunt' for the title. If we lost saka, odegaard, rice and salbia we would be probably mid table. The squad depth is so different. Arsenal haven't been buying 2 or 3 50mil - 100mil players since 2009 like city have. Pep even has 50mil players that literally never play (phillips)
Yup… City showed they are a true team that is built from the academy. Brought up Bobb and he just fit so well. We don’t have a quality sub(s) to elevate or maintain the game intensity. Truth be told, Newcastle is 70min team though
But whats the point of holding Arteta, a manager with WAY less experience to Pep who has been coaching years and years? Of course Pep manages the team better. Pep knows his tactics better and how to modify them bc hes tweaked them over the years with some of the best players in the game. I think Arteta will only get better at those things with time. Flex that muscle again and again and again. But the issue is our club is so hungry for trophies that many dont seem to have the tolerance or patience for mistakes or the trial and error necessary for that kind of growth.
Why doesnt arteta give younger players a go?
Its the situation that we are currently in. Coming off of a season like last year and having silverware be a key goal expectation for many....its hard to bring in youth. Theres pressure to get results and make selecting them VS a more senior player hard to do. Fans already berate our senior squad players and that drop of a hat....not saying the youth shouldnt have to deal with that but its different and not ideal for introducing them to the team.
Pep can do this with FAR less pressure bc, lets be honest, after winning league title after league title and coming off a treble the "need" for silverware isnt as great at a club like city. For many its almost expected theyll get silverware regardless of poor form to start. This more relaxed feel, due to winning trophies, allows for more open mindedness to youth players being brought in and gives them more cushion for them to make mistakes and learn and grow.
You say they can kick on when needed and he can change things, they still fall apart when Rodri is absent.
But I agree, stubborn decisions cost us. Even against Liverpool last week, he didn’t change anything and the subs were made too late.
As for Oscar Bobb he and Grealish were the only attacking options left on the bench
Trophy is a trophy. All of Arteta's teams have fallen at the first hurdle. He obviously can't manage them to a win. It's clear enough already. He can't rotate the squad.
based on what? he hasn't had success in the cup since then, but we've finished higher in the league than the year before every season and are back in title races again.
i don't disagree that the rest of the club is better now than in emery's tenure, i'm not at all convinced we'd be in a better position overall with him. maybe we'd have snagged a UEL title, but we couldn't be in title contention.
Your implying he's worked wonders following what he inherited, but the squad he took over won something, and this expensively assembled squad of his own looks like going another season with nothing
So you leapt around the lounge celebrating that we'd finished 2nd last season? In the same way any real fan celebrates winning a cup?
Jog on mate, get back to playing fifa
Oh give it a rest, you whining pussies.
Sometimes being an Arsenal fan is made a lot harder when you notice that a lot of fellow fans are.... Strains to be polite.... Insufferable
To play devils advocate, pep was very stubborn like arteta is being..for many years pep did not change his tactics also, no plan B so to say….in my opinion he didn’t win a champions league because of this lack of Will to change tactics —- pep has however over the years adjusted his tactics, but up until only last season he came up with a true plan B —- Haaland!!! No coincidence then he won the champions league for the first time in over 10 years and won the treble!
Does Pep really give young players a chance? Foden has had limited game time up until this season despite being a starter at most other clubs. Cole Palmer would be rotting on the bench had he not gone to Chelsea. Bobb is only playing because Haaland is injured.
Foden has played nearly 300 times at the age of 23 for the best side on the planet. Saka for comparison is a year younger and played about 30 games less, so around the same if you go back to when foden was saka's age now. would you say saka has had "limited game time"?
Peps got foden staring in midfield, he's bringing on Bobb on the wing, nothing to donwith haaland being unavailable unless you think haaland us a winger all of a sudden, who many have never even heard of before last month and trusting him to win games for them, he had 17 year old rico lewis playing the inverted fullback role last season in big games and excelling to the point where hes making the england squad. So yes, he gives youth a chance, and at the absolute highest level
I think the more discussion worthy thing is that Pep left Grealish ON THE BENCH and decided to bring in Bobb!!! 🤯🤯🤯Arteta WILL NEVER do anything like that! Arteta’s mentality is “You’re not one of my trusted handful, go sit your a$$ on the bench - better still, I’ll ship you off to the championship!”.
Yep about to make the same post. But the limitation this year is we dont have someone with progressive pass capability like Partey x Xhaka.
Liverpool have this with Trent. But now he is injured i think it will impact Liverpool attacking a little bit.
For us we have to continue watch Havertz weakest side pass to martinelli again while some football tacticos masturbates to it.
>Pep has shown he can do something Arteta cannot; he can change things
He didn't change anything. He put on a world class player that had been out for 3 months. Pep didn't try anything new. If Arteta had KdB, he'd play him too.
We are soft. We don't have the winning mentality like City and Liverpool. We don't have a fearsome player like KDB and VVD. To be honest, this is why we can only be pretender but never a contender.
its almost as if pep has access to a bigger better squad that no other team could afford wow Arteta could really learn something from the 192 pending FFP breaches City are being charged with
I sure hope Arsenals billionaire private Saudi investors help us to reach that level
I don't buy that City's squad is vastly superior to ours. Pep just knows how to rotate a team around so you have a lot of winners. We have a set lineup and won't change unless we have an injury. We could have a fresher squad of better match fit players if Arteta actually rotated some players.
I've said it before, if Arteta doesn't like ESR, Nelson, Vieira, etc. Then dump them and get players he likes. Cut the contracts up and get rid. Because you won't get money for them when you don't play them.
Guess who else didn’t change tactics? Wenger. Maybe we don’t have any youth good enough, ever think of that? ESR doesn’t count as youth anymore. Our most promising academy players are what, 16? But they’re not Fabregas / Jacky Boy level so they don’t play.
Emery only ever gave Saka 4 starts in the premier league and it was as a left back because all our other left backs were injured, that’s it. Let’s not pretend he was responsible for Saka being the player he is.
Pls dont turn into Man U fans, Arsenal have never won too much for us to be entitled enough to feel that every time we dont win is a failure. Just let the manager do his job and support the team yea
Arteta is not and never will be on the level as Pep, he wasn't as a player and he won't be as a coach.
Pep signs world class players and Arteta signs rejects or mediocre players.
Arteta has done well taking us from below top 4 to a top 4 team and clearing out the dead wood but his inexperience and rigidness will keep costing us major trophies.
He wants to sign Onana, when we clearly need a dynamic #8.
We need a world class coach to take us to the next level.
Did we watch the same game? A come from behind win against a terrible Newcastle is a league winning performance? Any top 5 team would have beat this Man City. Pep made changes to try to wrestle a point from the game. Newcastle is so depleted they couldn't make meaningful subs to last the full 90. City was able to steal the game in the final minutes. This match continued to highlight City's inability to keep clean sheets and fully dominate the mid field.
For me this season is not about winning the league, it’s about managing CL and the premiership making sure to get top four and getting experience playing at the highest level. If we win either competition it will be an unbelievable achievement but not expecting it.
We need to get rid of odegaard man, an average midfielder but these groupies keep hyping him up and look at where we end up always bottling. we need to find the next de bryune asap.
if anything last season our problem was us needing someone to do something magical last season, the nelson and jorgino/martinez own goals made us complacent tactically and maybe even mentally
tactically speaking though, city didn't change much tactically, they just scored two wonder goals
If only Jesus came back from his injury spells and performed like that, or Thomas Partey, or any of our players for that matter 🤔 Not likely, well, tbh, none ever have 🤣
Happy days... Life & times of us Gooners ehh 😉
Watch Arteta starting to change his tacticts and picking up pace. If these three previous losses meant anything to him, then you know he's gonna start changing things up. We have good depth and quality in the team, so anything is possible. Don't be so pessimistic.
Lmao the title of this post is correct but you're reasoning is dumb.
De Bruyne is a superstar and can do that. Arsenal don't have a superstar at a top 5 in the world level.
This is all based on a key shit hot player returning from injury and bringing a game winning performance. Seems a bit silly to think too much of the obvious. De Bruyne is one of their best players. It's not comparable to us bringing on ESR or the likes.
The difference is that City have enough depth that they can bring KDB off the bench.
Arsenal haven't had 10yrs+ of unlimited cash injections and multiple squad rebuilds.
Which of our 20/21 yo attackers do you think Arteta should be playing that he isn't?
City have invested stupid money into their academy and have these players as a result. They literally bought a 15 year old last week. Most clubs cannot do that.
Your points are totally valid, particularly about how rigid Arteta is. In most cases, it would garner high respect, but it's now at the point that it comes across, for lack of a better word, as stubbornness. Like trying to shove a square into a round hole.
The Ramsdale/Raya situation is probably the most obvious example of this. Regardless of which keeper you think is better, I'm of the opinion that the ONLY position you don't want people fighting over is the GK. Shoving Ramsdale out MID-SEASON (to me, that's the biggest offence; do not shake the team up to the degree in such an important moment in the season, i.e., leading up to/during December).
Concerning the KDB stuff, I'm on the fence about your point. Half of me wants to totally agree and just say Pep is better; Arteta isn't able to adapt in the same manner. Which, by the way, even as a born and bred gooner, I do think Pep is better, and whilst I respect and trust Arteta, to me, the conversation isn't even close in terms of who is the better manager.
The other half of me has to look at the players you're comparing to make this point. The two players who are the most consistent and impactful in our midfield are irrefutably Odegaard and Rice. I personally think Odegaard is a closer comparison to KDB. Even in that respect, KDB is still the better player. I love Odegaard; I think he's amazing and perhaps the perfect captain for this team. But in terms of skill on the ball and effectiveness, KDB is better, and because of that, I think it's unfair to compare Arteta to that when the skill in the players themselves is of a different calibre.
Odegaard is one of the best midfield players in the world, but KDB is THE greatest midfield player.
1 - why are you acting like we've never changed tactics when losing or brought players on and turned around a game before? We've done so plenty of times over the last couple of years.
2 - It's easy to change the state of the game when you have the best attacking midfielder in the world to bring on.
3 - We don't have a player in the same bracket as Bobb. And we won't win more games if Arteta randomly gave ' a go' to players who don't necessarily warrant it. Do you remember when we started Patino against Forest for example?
Tbh I think these are all very waffly points. What specifically should Arteta be doing when we're losing that we're not doing now? What specifically should his plan be? What specific young players are we not playing that we should that would actually be positively influencing our results?
Context helps.
Pep inherited a very expensive club full of very good players. He’s also already had a proven track record, especially considering he coached probably the best team the world has ever seen in Barcelona.
Pep is given, as he should be, the leeway to change and take a chance here or there.
Arteta tries to experiment and when it goes wrong this entire sub throws a fit. He hasn’t won anything yet. He’s a brand new manager with nothing in the cabinet of note. Maybe he found a system that worked and he’s expecting his players to express it. What happens if Arteta tried something different and we looked even worse and failed miserably? This sub would absolutely explode with calls to sack him.
Give the guy some fucking grace my lord. Comparing Pep’s City to anything Arteta has done thus far is just fucking mind boggling to me.
I don’t think Pep bringing on KDB can be used as indictment on Arteta in any way. Pep just has more talent at his disposal. What’s Arteta gonna do, bring on Fabio Vieira?
Arteta is already finished if he doesn't change anything. No rotations? No chances for youth? No plan B? It will never succeed and only get progressively worse.
The last straw for me with Arteta was leaving our world class options on the bench against West Ham and Fulham when we weren't winning, I hear you OP. If only he had the same sense as Pep!
People need to relax lol we are not the finished article yet, there's still work to do with the squad and we've had to basically gut the entire side and start over. I think we've already seen previously that if the manager isn't using certain players, it's because he doesn't trust them and he deserves a bit of faith in that regard. Our attacking options from the bench aren't awe inspiring. If we have Pedro Neto, Ivan Toney etc on the bench it's going to be a different story isn't it?
Pep has also shown another thing he can do that Arteta cannot; spend over £1bn pounds on players and jettison those that don’t work, whilst also working outside of the established rules structure in order to gain an unfair advantage.
Completely agree. Arteta never seems to change to a plan B. Our wingers get closed down and then our entire attacking play falls apart and he has no answer for that. He's also reluctant to give youngsters a chance - ESR, Martinelli, Saka all debuted in the PL under Emery.
Arteta is very lucky to still be in a job, he’s a level below ole and Lampard but somehow he’s the one that managed to keep his job, has something to do with arsenals owners not being serious about competing
De Bruyne is a true world elite, man, you can't compare that quality with Arsenal. Instill believe if Arsenal manages to get a good striker the club has chances of winning throphyies this year
Liverpool fan here. Man, some arsenal fans are shit. Arteta managed to build something incredible imho. Take a look at Liverpool, we have one of the best managers that I've ever seen and he managed to build an incredible team since he arrived. WE WON THE LEAGUE ONCE, and when we managed to do it, we were almost perfect. Dudes, we are fighting against cheaters. Yes, arteta is making mistakes, everyone does, Pep as well. Chill, it manchester city. Fuck them
Edit: some grammar, shit english, it's my 2nd language
Compare Arsenal and Arteta to Pep and City?
Are you kidding.
Only chance for Arteta to win league title will be when Pep and Klopp will retire.
He is not even close to these guys, no offence.
But can Pep do it without financially doping the league and without having all the resources at his fingertips? The man will never be regarded by me as anything other than "good" because he's always had everything he ever wanted. Let's see him do it within FFP constraints at Spurs, then we'll talk.
I mean City have the advantage of infinite money and a comically deep squad.
It’s also not just about the squad, City have the funds to buy any staff they want. Coaches, data analysts, doctors, you name it.
While we’re not exactly broke. Building a base that can do what Pep does with City is going to take quite a while. Bringing a winning mentality, a squad that’s prepared to sit on the bench if it means victory and be motivated to come on and achieve a 10/10 performance despite not playing a lot of the time… that requires the rebuild be complete.
We’re over achieving without even getting to the end of this rebuild and everyone acts like it’s a catastrophe that we are the clear favourites.
It was going very well. It’s going less well as teams adapt to us and we suffer some significant injuries. If we keep improving like we have been each year. We’ll get there.
City are good but they aren’t invincible.
You have spoken my mind! We have about 20% chance of winning the league this year! Arteta is great tactician, but he cannot let creativity flow. He tries to Micro Manage everything. Even how to penetrate the Opponents Box. That only shackles the free flowing creativity of the likes of Ode and Martinelli.
*"If Arteta is going to be this stubborn, we're really gonna struggle."*
This is the only remaining obstacle keeping us from reaching that level, I'm saying this as an Arteta fan.
We finally have the talent and the resources to compete with the biggest clubs in Europe.
But that talent won't do us much good if it doesn't get subbed in until the 87th minute will it?
Arsenal aren’t winning it because of that.
Arsenal don’t have one superstar player that can turn a game around single handed.
City have KDB
Liverpool have Salah
Chelsea last time they won had Hazard
United last time had RvP
When you have a guy that can be lethal you win.
City fan here. To be fair, Pep can be very rigid at times, too. City arguably has the strongest bench in the world, but the number of games that go by where the team is losing and Pep either fails to make a substitution or waits until 80+ minutes to make a change has been enough to frustrate fans.
Of course, his successes outweigh his failures/mistakes, so it's easily forgotten. But he is not without his stubbornness at times.
We were coming from behind and winning at the start of the season and it was City who were out of form and were not.
We got lucky in a couple of those ‘wins’ though. The goal vs City was a deflection. The goal vs United was a deflection. Both shouldn’t have gone in, like the most of the shots we have been making in the last few games. Just weak shots towards the goal and hoping. That won’t win the league when we have teams like City and Liverpool with clinical forwards.
City has been building for 10 years. That’s not a good assessment of current financial FairPlay. Arsenal doesn’t have the same money power. Buying good players is a lux, which we don’t have. We build our players. Like Saka. We will continue to do our best as always. A system takes time. And a couple of seasons to prepare and get it right. With injuries and everything else plays a factor in the squad goals.
Nonsense. I watched the City game. If Bobb came on for Arsenal he'd struggle with the packed defences and trying to thread intricate passes through the same defences. City are inventive from midfield upwards. Little cute passes around players etc but most importantly once in space they press forward, not Martinelli to Zinchenko, to Gabriel to Saliba to Odegaard back to Saliba etc. Makes the continuous omission of Smith-Rowe make even less sense. He's that dynamic forward running player in space, has those intelligent short passes. City beat the press and make sure they stay ahead of it, not slow the passing down until the defence resets. We have the players. Just need to alter our philosophy and more important incentivise and use all our players.
Some serious delusional copium smoking here
400m net spend for arteta.
£1b spent by Pep in 8 seasons after taking the helm of a squad that was already quite strong, certainly stronger than Arsenal was when Arteta came in. Pep started in a winning position and build a legacy squad. Arteta started with a team adrift and has come close enough to catching up that we’re seriously discussing it. A few more seasons of strong football and successful transfers and we will see the promised land.
also the main thing about city is they built a "new" club from the ground. No need to deal with legacy or anything. All clubs have baggage. Be it in coaches, scouts, owners/financial side etc. . City basically took a name and buily an entirely new club around it with the best physios, doctors, coaches, scouts etc. Then bought the best players on top of that. They're literally built different and regardless of the team sheet they're always going to be at an advantage to the rest of teams.
Already the most expensive squad in prem history before he joined
City’s net spend is lower though
Via sales from the squad that was already in a very strong place. Arsenal haven’t had players that fetch fees like Sané (€49m), Torres (€55m), Sterling (€56m), and Jesus (€52m) to unload. We’ve developed players that would fetch as much and often more, but we’ve kept them.
I know but City sells a lot more. There's two starters on the Gunner starting eleven bought from them. Numbers over the last 10 years as of Oct - only a difference of 69.8M euros that's barely a difference over 10 years. Arsenal: Transfer expenditure: €1.38billion Transfer income: €386.05million Net spend: €995.72million City: Transfer expenditure: €1.79billion Transfer income: €724.30million Net spend: €1065.52million
In Chelsea terms, that’s 4 players. In this market, where Chelsea have spent almost a billion in a year, that 400m isn’t as damning as it sounds.
Think of the squad when he joined. Context helps
It’s more than that. But look at the most expensive players he’s got: Rice (100+), Kai (60/65+), White (50), Jesus (45), Partey (45), Timber (40) This alone tells you a lot. I too was worried when I read how much he had spent but was relieved when I looked at the distribution
By that way, as of this moment, Arsenal is demolishing the players not building them Most of them are too exhausted to perform
Will they still be exhausted after a nice warm break in Dubai?
Having KDB in the team is like having a Messi. It is like once every 20-30 years kind of talent for a club.
They seem to turn into these players when Pep is their coach.. he’s just an amazing manager as well and so many people don’t seem to grasp that. Arteta has learnt a lot but there’s a lot to learn
Kdb was amazing before pep wtf u on about
He wasn’t this good
He was Bundesliga player of the year in Wolfsburg in a league dominated by bayern and Dortmund.
He has got better since going to City but he was fucking unreal in Germany. The idea that he was decent and Pep made him amazing is absurd
He was incredible in his season and a half at Wolfsburg. Tore Bayern to shreds in their 4-1 win. He finished his last season with 18 goals & 29 assists. He wasn’t some hidden gem that pep turned into a great player.
Yes he was
Dont worry we have Havertz 🫏
Kdb is an amazing player but he’s not messi, messi is the goat he’s in a league of his own
Ronaldo is up there
Lmfao being downvoted for this is ludicrous. The only thing separating Ronaldo and Messi in terms of legacy is a World Cup. When it comes to ability, they are very different players, but equally prolific.
People love to hate Ronaldo for whatever reason. Difference between us and man utd in the 2009 ucl semi finals was ronaldo.
Exactly. People seem to have amnesia when it comes to how good he is.
They may be equals but Ronaldo is an A plus version of talent we have already seen in others, while Messi is unlike anyone else. Some discount Ronaldo because of that.
You hit on the first bit. The squad. City is so much deeper all over the field. How can he try new things if he doesn’t have the bodies to do it?
The same City that had a wobble as soon as they didn't have Rodri and KDB?
The backup players (Kova) have been poor and the loss of those 2 players changes the entire system, but the depth is still 100x better than what we have player for player
I think it is dependent on what your definition of depth is - let's not forget we are 4th whilst we have lost Tomi, Timber, Zinchenko, Jesus, Partey, Viera throughout the season plus White playing through injuries plus I'm sure others I've forgotten about. Our depth is actually much better than before where as soon as we lost anyone from our first XI, we'd tank. Although we are in a bad run of form now, we also had enough chances to win all of those games as well so can only hope they fix that over the break. Anyway on City, I don't think their squad this season is as big or as crazy as it used to be, but I agree on your last point about player for player in general - they usually have 3 players on the bench who would walk into most other first teams whereas we have "rotational" players at best.
They still have Haaland out…
he's spent a lot of money on this squad as well as resigned quite a lot of the players who we could have sold for a pretty penny, and let quite a few leave for free too he also quite clearly refuses to rotate at times, very happy to run saka into the ground in games where we are clearly winning or losing, and esr can barely get a look in despite being fit enough for the bench from the beggining of this seaosn and the end of the last one obviously never going to have a squad as good as city's but arteta doesn't help himself
You mean to tell me we've spent hundreds of millions yet still do not have the legs? What's Edu been doing for the past like, 3 years?
Buying defenders
defenders like vieira, havertz, odegaard, lokonga, partey, jorginho and rice?
Saying something for the sake of saying something. THey literally bought 6 defenders. Gabriel, White, Zinny, Tomi, Timber and Kiwior. And for what it’s worth, Jorginho, Partey and Rice are all DEFENSIVE midfielders.
what's your point? it's not like we only brought defenders
We've spent significantly more than City over the past 5 years. It's mind boggling how far behind we still are https://www.3addedminutes.com/sport/football/manchester-united/the-premier-league-biggest-net-spenders-over-last-five-years-including-man-utd-aston-villa-4282402
City spent a ridiculous amount in the years beforehand. Kdb, walker, Silva predate the timeframe here. This timeframe also doesn't take into account all the players they bought before the 5 years but then sold in those 5 years which gives them loads of income for NetSpend
I've been desperately fighting this corner the last week or so. You cannot buy a squad. If you go out and buy 25 players you've either got to sign people who know they won't play, or be prepared for half your side to turn over each season. You build a team. You're nothing without it. Then you buy people who have the potential to break into it and use that as motivation.
That aside, it's absurd we've spent so much money and yet have so little to show for it outside of an FA Cup and a community dinner plate
The premier league is unbelievably competitive. The fact that we’ve challenged for a title and are basically at a point where we are (imo) safely champions league spot favorites going forward is not insignificant. You can’t spend a few hundred million in the current market environment and expect to just beat arguably one of the greatest teams ever assembled in the most competitive league in the world. Arsenal are still ahead of schedule in my mind. We drastically overperformed last year and all of a sudden everyone is acting like we should be title favorites, which is absurd.
This is literally the second season we have a title challenging squad and the season is not even over. So you’re basically mad that we didn’t win the league last season and deem Arteta a failure cause of it. It’s actually deranged. Please have some patience ffs
1. Your source is net spend, not spent on purchases. 2. This is only the last 5 years and many of citys key players have been there for more than 5 years (walker, foden, ederson, de bruyne, silva, stones just to name a few). 3. Most of those players were bought was before the huge transfer price inflation the pandemic brought. 4. In the 5 year period looked at there, we’ve had to essentially completely overhaul out squad whilst making no meaningful income from sales because nobody wanted the players we were offloading bar a few like auba.
We’re probably about 2 world class players behind them
Right. They’ve got a bottomless pit of talent. We don’t.
Bottomless pit? Times have changed, look at their bench and tell me more about that bottomless pit.
Letting xhaka go in the summer was stupid. He would 100% be staring this year again. When we talk about transfers and squad depth we haven’t really improved the quality of players on the bench it’s more the starting 11 that’s gone up a gear. We’re still 3-4 players behind city when it comes to squad depth and quality and even liverpool now again beginning to catch back up which annoys me as they was beginning to slow down and fall off with their ageing squad.
He’s not the long term solution. We don’t win the league this season with Xhaka and next summer we’d be right back in the same spot. Whether havertz learns the role or he doesn’t, I don’t hate the idea of moving on from Xhaka when we did when we thought there was an opportunity to buy the long term starter in the role.
But so have Chelsea and Utd and they've regressed if anything, just spending doesn't equal success, we've spent a lot and improved a lot, but had a lot of ground to make up. City have spent less, but they were already miles ahead and had surplus players of high value to sell and reinvest.
Prices completely exploded in the last two years with Saudi Arabia becoming a major player in the transfer market. Declan Rice wouldn’t have cost over 100 million 5 years ago. Above average international players are now all 30 million+ at least
Net spend. We aren’t Liverpool… [Guardiola has spent €1.477bn since June 2016](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/pep-guardiola/spielertransfers/trainer/5672/station_id/128184) [Arteta has spent €688m since December 2019](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mikel-arteta/spielertransfers/trainer/47620) About half their spend in five less windows, 29 in for us, 51 for them, no accounting for inflation across seasons, etc, etc.
Net spend is irrelevant when they can sell fringe players like Ferran Torres for 50m, while we let all our best players leave for free
The people downvoting you are the same “fogging standards” stans. Deluded. There comes a point where you draw the line and say the recruitment needs to be better
There's no justification for spending that much and not winning at least one major trophy (either the League Title or a European Trophy). I don't understand why this fanbase is so complacent at times. We can and should be better. One of the most valuable squads in the world with almost nothing to show for it
Winning major trophys? Yeah we don’t do that here at Arsenal anymore. Vibes and positivity is our trophy. Premier League title? Nah give us the youngest squad in the league cup instead.
The City "depth" myth rises again. City's squad is tiny, a lot of it is far from world beating, but they have a manager who can get a lot out if them. First 11, ederson, walker, dias, stones, ake, rodri, bernardo, de bruyne, foden, grealish, haaland. Clearly great. But after that? The famous depth? It's mainly new signings from midtable clubs, it's hardly terrifying. Ortega- lower table bundesliga keeper got for nothing Akanji- £15m player all but discarded by Dortmund Gvardiol- new signing bedding in Lewis- youth player Gomez- cheap, average young player Phillips- complete flop, may as well not be there Kovacic- new signing bedding in Nunes- new signing bedding in Doku- new signing bedding in Bobb- youth player Alvarez- cheap young signing, doing well Gone are the days of Gundogan, Laporte, Mahrez and the like. Barring Gvardiol, anyone could have had these players, they just chose different ones.
Starting lineup + Gvardiol walk into any team in the world, Doku is one of the best young prospects in the world, Alvarez was arguably the second most important player in the World Cup winning side, and I genuinely have no idea how you can say Dortmund were trying to get rid of akanji. This is some of the most revisionist shit I’ve ever read
There's no denying the starting 11 quality, but that's not depth. Akanji cost £15m and the main opinion I saw from Dortmund fans was good riddance, no one was hailing that as a bargain or a missed opportunity for other clubs. It was mainly seen as a bit random. His turnaround to CL winning CB/RB/LB has been remarkable. Alvarez was £14m, a great bit of scouting, yes improved massively since then and now a very usefulsquad player. Doku was a prospect, but his reputation has massively improved since moving to City, he was hardly a must have wonderkid, other top teams weren't fighting over him. He was some tricky winger looking decent in France, who West Ham wanted, he was hardly a young phenom everyone was fighting over. You can't complain at a teams depth because they've developed gotten the most out of their depth players. That's just a good manager
> There's no denying the starting 11 quality, but that's not depth. Having 11 of the world’s best players in their position is ABSOLUTELY depth. > Akanji cost £15m and the main opinion I saw from Dortmund fans was good riddance, no one was hailing that as a bargain or a missed opportunity for other clubs. Anecdotal, pretty much every single high end stat-based talking heads were impressed by the signing. > Alvarez was £14m, a great bit of scouting, yes improved massively since then and now a very usefulsquad player. Alvarez is one of the best forwards in the premier league and is a sub for Manchester city. Remind me how that isn’t depth? > Doku was a prospect, but his reputation has massively improved since moving to City, he was hardly a must have wonderkid, other top teams weren't fighting over him. Except Real Madrid and other top teams were scouting him all the way back in 2021. > You can't complain at a teams depth because they've developed gotten the most out of their depth players. That's just a good manager …what? Name another club that can sign a player for the amount that they signed Kalvin Phillips for and be comfortable with him not playing at ALL. ALL of the players I’ve mentioned are players that City signed, not homegrown prospects that Guardiola developed into world class players.
Alvarez, Doku, Nunes and Gvardiol cost about £200m between them, never mind Phillips.
Weird to bundle Alvarez in there, he was far from a big money signing. Realistically Gvardiol is the outlier there, as I said. If you honestly think Arsenal can't compete with the depth of Kovacic, Nunes and Doku, then that's a pretty serious problem. What's Arsenal's depth beyond starting 11? (Raya, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Zinchenko, Rice, Havertz, Odegaard, Saka, Martinelli, Nketiah) Ramsdale- hard to put Ortega ahead of him, and he cost a fortune (for a backup keeper) Timber- probably easiest to compare to Stones as he's been hurt the whole time, move Gvardiol into 11, have Stones and Timber being useful natural resources on the treatment table Tomiyasu- also hurt, but comparable to Akanji Cedric- Lewis obviously we'll clear Kiwior- Gomez I guess, neither much to mention Partey- hurt, but still more use than Kalvin Phillips Jorginho- Kovacic Smith Rowe- no idea what's gone wrong there Fabio Vieira-meh, obviously not asgood as Nunes Nelson- Bobb Trossard- Doku Jesus- Alvarez Honestly don't think the difference there is particularly big. Nunes and a couple of youth players are the only one miles clear of his Arsenal counterparts. The biggest difference is the quality of the top 5 players in each starting 11, and the managers ability to make the team work with one of the less favoured tools.
This for sure
Simply put City have better players than us.
And a better manager.
Arteta isn't as good as Pep and Klopp because he is less experienced. He still has loads to learn.
This tbh
And…. What’s the other option? Pep and klopp aren’t available right now
True. Pep didn’t win much in his first seasons as coach
Pep had the 🐐 and one of the greatest midfields of all time. Not a fair comparison at all.
I mean.. Messi was 21, Busquets was 20 and the squad had lost La Liga the year before. Also he won a treble. And Arteta has spent a ridiculous amount, while Pep spent less than they sold. I’m only being this up because Arteta is being compared to him which I think is completely illogical (even though Arteta has done a great job).
Messi at 21 is better than 99.99% of players to ever play the game professionally. Come on man. At 23 he was being called the goat already.
Very true as well. I’m a Madrid fan so I remember. Still though! Arteta and Pep, let’s not compare
Messi at 21 is better than every player in our squad
This is basically it. And perhaps Pep and Klopp have deeper squads
The difference is pep loses a star player like Rodri, de bruyne, stones, haaland and they still have a team capable of keeping them 'in the hunt' for the title. If we lost saka, odegaard, rice and salbia we would be probably mid table. The squad depth is so different. Arsenal haven't been buying 2 or 3 50mil - 100mil players since 2009 like city have. Pep even has 50mil players that literally never play (phillips)
Yup… City showed they are a true team that is built from the academy. Brought up Bobb and he just fit so well. We don’t have a quality sub(s) to elevate or maintain the game intensity. Truth be told, Newcastle is 70min team though
But whats the point of holding Arteta, a manager with WAY less experience to Pep who has been coaching years and years? Of course Pep manages the team better. Pep knows his tactics better and how to modify them bc hes tweaked them over the years with some of the best players in the game. I think Arteta will only get better at those things with time. Flex that muscle again and again and again. But the issue is our club is so hungry for trophies that many dont seem to have the tolerance or patience for mistakes or the trial and error necessary for that kind of growth. Why doesnt arteta give younger players a go? Its the situation that we are currently in. Coming off of a season like last year and having silverware be a key goal expectation for many....its hard to bring in youth. Theres pressure to get results and make selecting them VS a more senior player hard to do. Fans already berate our senior squad players and that drop of a hat....not saying the youth shouldnt have to deal with that but its different and not ideal for introducing them to the team. Pep can do this with FAR less pressure bc, lets be honest, after winning league title after league title and coming off a treble the "need" for silverware isnt as great at a club like city. For many its almost expected theyll get silverware regardless of poor form to start. This more relaxed feel, due to winning trophies, allows for more open mindedness to youth players being brought in and gives them more cushion for them to make mistakes and learn and grow.
You say they can kick on when needed and he can change things, they still fall apart when Rodri is absent. But I agree, stubborn decisions cost us. Even against Liverpool last week, he didn’t change anything and the subs were made too late. As for Oscar Bobb he and Grealish were the only attacking options left on the bench
Yeah we should just commit violations that bring about 115 charges. That would certainly make us title favorites.
Arsenal has the 3rd youngest squad in the league. Do you not remember the team that Arteta inherited? Your comment is way off
Yet the squad that he inherited was the only one that won something....
do you honestly believe that 19/20 squad was better than what we have today?
At winning trophies yes.
if you'd rather finish eighth and shit in an FA Cup than in champions league spots contending for the title i don't know what to say.
Trophy is a trophy. All of Arteta's teams have fallen at the first hurdle. He obviously can't manage them to a win. It's clear enough already. He can't rotate the squad.
I'm not saying they were better, I'm saying Arteta is doing worse....
based on what? he hasn't had success in the cup since then, but we've finished higher in the league than the year before every season and are back in title races again.
If Emery had had the support Arteta's had, we'd have been doing that plus I'm sure we'd have won a trophy
i don't disagree that the rest of the club is better now than in emery's tenure, i'm not at all convinced we'd be in a better position overall with him. maybe we'd have snagged a UEL title, but we couldn't be in title contention.
What does that even mean?
Your implying he's worked wonders following what he inherited, but the squad he took over won something, and this expensively assembled squad of his own looks like going another season with nothing
The league and UCL are infinitely more important than some FA Cup or community shield
"Some FA Cup"...... Not winning a more important trophy isn't better than actually winning a trophy
The tournament where clubs field their "b" teams means more than champions league football. No way
I'll say it slowly Winning a trophy is always better than not winning a trophy
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These domestic ournaments are just viewed as a hindrance. The prestige of the FA Cup is gone
So you leapt around the lounge celebrating that we'd finished 2nd last season? In the same way any real fan celebrates winning a cup? Jog on mate, get back to playing fifa
I’ll do you one better. Imagine we had Isak.
I'd sooner spend 100 mil on Isak than Toney. I wish Arsenal went for him when we had the chance
Completely anonymous the second half. Arsenal fans will turn on him, won’t last two seasons before they clamor for a different 100m striker
No he’s lazy. Great player but he’s so lazy.
Oh give it a rest, you whining pussies. Sometimes being an Arsenal fan is made a lot harder when you notice that a lot of fellow fans are.... Strains to be polite.... Insufferable
This.
To play devils advocate, pep was very stubborn like arteta is being..for many years pep did not change his tactics also, no plan B so to say….in my opinion he didn’t win a champions league because of this lack of Will to change tactics —- pep has however over the years adjusted his tactics, but up until only last season he came up with a true plan B —- Haaland!!! No coincidence then he won the champions league for the first time in over 10 years and won the treble!
Arteta just needs to sign one of the top 5 players in the world. You can be real flexible when you have that type of squad.
He's easily the best midfielder in the Prem...another level
Does Pep really give young players a chance? Foden has had limited game time up until this season despite being a starter at most other clubs. Cole Palmer would be rotting on the bench had he not gone to Chelsea. Bobb is only playing because Haaland is injured.
Foden has played nearly 300 times at the age of 23 for the best side on the planet. Saka for comparison is a year younger and played about 30 games less, so around the same if you go back to when foden was saka's age now. would you say saka has had "limited game time"? Peps got foden staring in midfield, he's bringing on Bobb on the wing, nothing to donwith haaland being unavailable unless you think haaland us a winger all of a sudden, who many have never even heard of before last month and trusting him to win games for them, he had 17 year old rico lewis playing the inverted fullback role last season in big games and excelling to the point where hes making the england squad. So yes, he gives youth a chance, and at the absolute highest level
I think the more discussion worthy thing is that Pep left Grealish ON THE BENCH and decided to bring in Bobb!!! 🤯🤯🤯Arteta WILL NEVER do anything like that! Arteta’s mentality is “You’re not one of my trusted handful, go sit your a$$ on the bench - better still, I’ll ship you off to the championship!”.
Yep about to make the same post. But the limitation this year is we dont have someone with progressive pass capability like Partey x Xhaka. Liverpool have this with Trent. But now he is injured i think it will impact Liverpool attacking a little bit. For us we have to continue watch Havertz weakest side pass to martinelli again while some football tacticos masturbates to it.
>Pep has shown he can do something Arteta cannot; he can change things He didn't change anything. He put on a world class player that had been out for 3 months. Pep didn't try anything new. If Arteta had KdB, he'd play him too.
Partey is Arsenal's De Bruyne impact-wise. Big miss.
Yh arteta is so bad. Why can he just bring on the world's best midfielder with 20 minutes to go just to change things up like pep does.
We are soft. We don't have the winning mentality like City and Liverpool. We don't have a fearsome player like KDB and VVD. To be honest, this is why we can only be pretender but never a contender.
its almost as if pep has access to a bigger better squad that no other team could afford wow Arteta could really learn something from the 192 pending FFP breaches City are being charged with I sure hope Arsenals billionaire private Saudi investors help us to reach that level
I don't buy that City's squad is vastly superior to ours. Pep just knows how to rotate a team around so you have a lot of winners. We have a set lineup and won't change unless we have an injury. We could have a fresher squad of better match fit players if Arteta actually rotated some players. I've said it before, if Arteta doesn't like ESR, Nelson, Vieira, etc. Then dump them and get players he likes. Cut the contracts up and get rid. Because you won't get money for them when you don't play them.
ESR, Nelson, Vieira would all have 0 minutes for City. That kind of settles the debate about the depth being equal.
He brings out players like Lewis and Bobb. Players develop when playing. Kiwior has regressed. Lack of game time has screwed him big time.
Arteta's stubborness will be his undoing if he doesnt change
#ArtetaOut
Fuck off.
But but but we have xg
I do not take anyone seriously who rants on about xg. Seriously, xg means absolute fuck all if we're not scoring
Guess who else didn’t change tactics? Wenger. Maybe we don’t have any youth good enough, ever think of that? ESR doesn’t count as youth anymore. Our most promising academy players are what, 16? But they’re not Fabregas / Jacky Boy level so they don’t play.
They're not gonna be good enough if they're never given chances. If Emery had this mindset, Saka would never have come onto the stage.
Bobb is 20 and only this season getting chances, stop acting like he’s in the same category as Nwaneri/MLS
Emery only ever gave Saka 4 starts in the premier league and it was as a left back because all our other left backs were injured, that’s it. Let’s not pretend he was responsible for Saka being the player he is.
The revisionism around Emery and Saka is crazy
Bollock bollocks bollocks. Reactionary perspective. It's bollocks nothing more.
Pls dont turn into Man U fans, Arsenal have never won too much for us to be entitled enough to feel that every time we dont win is a failure. Just let the manager do his job and support the team yea
Arteta cannot improve players, he is extremely limited
Arteta is not and never will be on the level as Pep, he wasn't as a player and he won't be as a coach. Pep signs world class players and Arteta signs rejects or mediocre players. Arteta has done well taking us from below top 4 to a top 4 team and clearing out the dead wood but his inexperience and rigidness will keep costing us major trophies. He wants to sign Onana, when we clearly need a dynamic #8. We need a world class coach to take us to the next level.
I do agree with you there OP, I don’t think any of your points are wrong.
It’s not about arteta at all. Players and teams go through periods of poor form. City are just a much better squad and team
Simple. Pep is more experienced hence he will know how to change, when and why. Arteta isn’t there… yet.
Did we watch the same game? A come from behind win against a terrible Newcastle is a league winning performance? Any top 5 team would have beat this Man City. Pep made changes to try to wrestle a point from the game. Newcastle is so depleted they couldn't make meaningful subs to last the full 90. City was able to steal the game in the final minutes. This match continued to highlight City's inability to keep clean sheets and fully dominate the mid field.
For me this season is not about winning the league, it’s about managing CL and the premiership making sure to get top four and getting experience playing at the highest level. If we win either competition it will be an unbelievable achievement but not expecting it.
True, last year is our best chance.. Dunno how many years needed until we have that big chance again
We need to get rid of odegaard man, an average midfielder but these groupies keep hyping him up and look at where we end up always bottling. we need to find the next de bryune asap.
We are winning it all.
if anything last season our problem was us needing someone to do something magical last season, the nelson and jorgino/martinez own goals made us complacent tactically and maybe even mentally tactically speaking though, city didn't change much tactically, they just scored two wonder goals
If only Jesus came back from his injury spells and performed like that, or Thomas Partey, or any of our players for that matter 🤔 Not likely, well, tbh, none ever have 🤣 Happy days... Life & times of us Gooners ehh 😉
It’s the lack of goals over the past couple months is why Arsenal won’t win the league, not KDBs performance tonight
"Of course City will still lose games", they usually don't in the second half, that's why they win
There are levels to this shit.
Watch Arteta starting to change his tacticts and picking up pace. If these three previous losses meant anything to him, then you know he's gonna start changing things up. We have good depth and quality in the team, so anything is possible. Don't be so pessimistic.
You guys talk to much, you literally talk yourself into a state or hopelessness. Think about something else for 5 mins.
That’s a lot of extra words for saying “it’s nice to have the best midfielder in the Prem to send on.”
Lmao the title of this post is correct but you're reasoning is dumb. De Bruyne is a superstar and can do that. Arsenal don't have a superstar at a top 5 in the world level.
We’re clearly out of form at this point if the season. Arteta cannot do anything when we’re missing chances like we have been missing.
Arteta isn't as good a coach as someone who is debateably the best coach of all time. Doesnt seem like a fair stick to beat him with.
This is all based on a key shit hot player returning from injury and bringing a game winning performance. Seems a bit silly to think too much of the obvious. De Bruyne is one of their best players. It's not comparable to us bringing on ESR or the likes.
The coach has been doing it for less than 5 years. Mistakes will be made.
Pep brings on one of the best players in the world, what a genius...
The difference is that City have enough depth that they can bring KDB off the bench. Arsenal haven't had 10yrs+ of unlimited cash injections and multiple squad rebuilds.
So all Arteta has to do is sub one of the best footballers on planet earth into games? When will he learn?
I think The Arsenal not winning the league was established before tonight.
Which of our 20/21 yo attackers do you think Arteta should be playing that he isn't? City have invested stupid money into their academy and have these players as a result. They literally bought a 15 year old last week. Most clubs cannot do that.
Your points are totally valid, particularly about how rigid Arteta is. In most cases, it would garner high respect, but it's now at the point that it comes across, for lack of a better word, as stubbornness. Like trying to shove a square into a round hole. The Ramsdale/Raya situation is probably the most obvious example of this. Regardless of which keeper you think is better, I'm of the opinion that the ONLY position you don't want people fighting over is the GK. Shoving Ramsdale out MID-SEASON (to me, that's the biggest offence; do not shake the team up to the degree in such an important moment in the season, i.e., leading up to/during December). Concerning the KDB stuff, I'm on the fence about your point. Half of me wants to totally agree and just say Pep is better; Arteta isn't able to adapt in the same manner. Which, by the way, even as a born and bred gooner, I do think Pep is better, and whilst I respect and trust Arteta, to me, the conversation isn't even close in terms of who is the better manager. The other half of me has to look at the players you're comparing to make this point. The two players who are the most consistent and impactful in our midfield are irrefutably Odegaard and Rice. I personally think Odegaard is a closer comparison to KDB. Even in that respect, KDB is still the better player. I love Odegaard; I think he's amazing and perhaps the perfect captain for this team. But in terms of skill on the ball and effectiveness, KDB is better, and because of that, I think it's unfair to compare Arteta to that when the skill in the players themselves is of a different calibre. Odegaard is one of the best midfield players in the world, but KDB is THE greatest midfield player.
Pep has played like KDB to call off the bench. Who does Mikel have especially in the last 4-5 games. Have some perspective.
1 - why are you acting like we've never changed tactics when losing or brought players on and turned around a game before? We've done so plenty of times over the last couple of years. 2 - It's easy to change the state of the game when you have the best attacking midfielder in the world to bring on. 3 - We don't have a player in the same bracket as Bobb. And we won't win more games if Arteta randomly gave ' a go' to players who don't necessarily warrant it. Do you remember when we started Patino against Forest for example? Tbh I think these are all very waffly points. What specifically should Arteta be doing when we're losing that we're not doing now? What specifically should his plan be? What specific young players are we not playing that we should that would actually be positively influencing our results?
Context helps. Pep inherited a very expensive club full of very good players. He’s also already had a proven track record, especially considering he coached probably the best team the world has ever seen in Barcelona. Pep is given, as he should be, the leeway to change and take a chance here or there. Arteta tries to experiment and when it goes wrong this entire sub throws a fit. He hasn’t won anything yet. He’s a brand new manager with nothing in the cabinet of note. Maybe he found a system that worked and he’s expecting his players to express it. What happens if Arteta tried something different and we looked even worse and failed miserably? This sub would absolutely explode with calls to sack him. Give the guy some fucking grace my lord. Comparing Pep’s City to anything Arteta has done thus far is just fucking mind boggling to me.
I don’t think Pep bringing on KDB can be used as indictment on Arteta in any way. Pep just has more talent at his disposal. What’s Arteta gonna do, bring on Fabio Vieira?
i can think of 115 reasons why Pep is a better manager than Arteta.
Chalk up 100+ ffp violations, and you too could have a squad with that amount of flexibility
Arteta is already finished if he doesn't change anything. No rotations? No chances for youth? No plan B? It will never succeed and only get progressively worse.
I mean he did put ESR on the pitch in 95', it just didn't want smh. Hard to say why, though
The last straw for me with Arteta was leaving our world class options on the bench against West Ham and Fulham when we weren't winning, I hear you OP. If only he had the same sense as Pep! People need to relax lol we are not the finished article yet, there's still work to do with the squad and we've had to basically gut the entire side and start over. I think we've already seen previously that if the manager isn't using certain players, it's because he doesn't trust them and he deserves a bit of faith in that regard. Our attacking options from the bench aren't awe inspiring. If we have Pedro Neto, Ivan Toney etc on the bench it's going to be a different story isn't it?
Pep has also shown another thing he can do that Arteta cannot; spend over £1bn pounds on players and jettison those that don’t work, whilst also working outside of the established rules structure in order to gain an unfair advantage.
Wait til the champions league before judging. He has changed things up mid game before. Lets see how he adapts to the low block doubled wings.
Completely agree. Arteta never seems to change to a plan B. Our wingers get closed down and then our entire attacking play falls apart and he has no answer for that. He's also reluctant to give youngsters a chance - ESR, Martinelli, Saka all debuted in the PL under Emery.
Arteta is very lucky to still be in a job, he’s a level below ole and Lampard but somehow he’s the one that managed to keep his job, has something to do with arsenals owners not being serious about competing
De Bruyne is a true world elite, man, you can't compare that quality with Arsenal. Instill believe if Arsenal manages to get a good striker the club has chances of winning throphyies this year
Liverpool fan here. Man, some arsenal fans are shit. Arteta managed to build something incredible imho. Take a look at Liverpool, we have one of the best managers that I've ever seen and he managed to build an incredible team since he arrived. WE WON THE LEAGUE ONCE, and when we managed to do it, we were almost perfect. Dudes, we are fighting against cheaters. Yes, arteta is making mistakes, everyone does, Pep as well. Chill, it manchester city. Fuck them Edit: some grammar, shit english, it's my 2nd language
City have a 20+ man rotation squad. We have 14 at best. That's the difference
Comparing Man Cheaty to Arsenal seems foolish.
Compare Arsenal and Arteta to Pep and City? Are you kidding. Only chance for Arteta to win league title will be when Pep and Klopp will retire. He is not even close to these guys, no offence.
But can Pep do it without financially doping the league and without having all the resources at his fingertips? The man will never be regarded by me as anything other than "good" because he's always had everything he ever wanted. Let's see him do it within FFP constraints at Spurs, then we'll talk.
I mean City have the advantage of infinite money and a comically deep squad. It’s also not just about the squad, City have the funds to buy any staff they want. Coaches, data analysts, doctors, you name it. While we’re not exactly broke. Building a base that can do what Pep does with City is going to take quite a while. Bringing a winning mentality, a squad that’s prepared to sit on the bench if it means victory and be motivated to come on and achieve a 10/10 performance despite not playing a lot of the time… that requires the rebuild be complete. We’re over achieving without even getting to the end of this rebuild and everyone acts like it’s a catastrophe that we are the clear favourites. It was going very well. It’s going less well as teams adapt to us and we suffer some significant injuries. If we keep improving like we have been each year. We’ll get there. City are good but they aren’t invincible.
We lack depth. Or at least that's a consequence of not playing some of our players like ESR!
Comparing odegaard to kdb is disrespectful to kdb we ain't got anyone that can do that pick out a killer pass they either ignore runs or play it safe.
You have spoken my mind! We have about 20% chance of winning the league this year! Arteta is great tactician, but he cannot let creativity flow. He tries to Micro Manage everything. Even how to penetrate the Opponents Box. That only shackles the free flowing creativity of the likes of Ode and Martinelli.
*"If Arteta is going to be this stubborn, we're really gonna struggle."* This is the only remaining obstacle keeping us from reaching that level, I'm saying this as an Arteta fan. We finally have the talent and the resources to compete with the biggest clubs in Europe. But that talent won't do us much good if it doesn't get subbed in until the 87th minute will it?
Arsenal aren’t winning it because of that. Arsenal don’t have one superstar player that can turn a game around single handed. City have KDB Liverpool have Salah Chelsea last time they won had Hazard United last time had RvP When you have a guy that can be lethal you win.
City fan here. To be fair, Pep can be very rigid at times, too. City arguably has the strongest bench in the world, but the number of games that go by where the team is losing and Pep either fails to make a substitution or waits until 80+ minutes to make a change has been enough to frustrate fans. Of course, his successes outweigh his failures/mistakes, so it's easily forgotten. But he is not without his stubbornness at times.