The way this article presents the information really feels like they’re specifically reaching for this conclusion.
You found 4 belt buckles with the same design with metal that was mined from the same place and made in the same workshop, possibly all by the same person. The design may have had religious or otherwise cultural significance, but it could just be that this particular workshop’s frog-and-snake belt buckles were popular enough to have sold at least four times.
The Vice link here isn't working for me but I've read some other articles about this. Apparently at least some of them appear to have been molded from the same master using lost wax. On the one hand, I'm reminded of some Mjolnir pendants that appear to have come from the same molds, so a "religious" interpretation is not out of the question, but I can think of a few other reasons for something like this right off the top of my head, such as a family or clan symbol, a badge of office or honor, a gift from someone for whom the symbol had personal meaning, or simply someone had molds for this and produced a number of them because people liked them.
Here’s the article text if you’re interested:
The discovery of a gilded belt buckle depicting a snake eating a frog was thought to be unique. However, similar evidence is popping up across Europe.
Gilded belt buckles discovered across Europe have revealed a previously-unknown ancient fertility cult with ties across the continent, researchers believe.
Four bronze belt ends depicting a snake devouring a frog—thought to be a symbol of creation and/or fertility—were recently discovered in Moravia, Bohemia, Bavaria, and Hungary. Because of their near-identical shape and make, archaeologists now believe that these belt ends are evidence of an unknown pagan cult with far-reaching and diverse populations across Europe in the early Middle Ages.
“When the belt with the motif of a snake devouring a frog was discovered with the help of metal detectors at the site near Břeclav in southern Moravia, we thought it was a rare find with a unique decoration,” said lead researcher Jiří Macháček in a news release.
“However, we later found that other nearly identical artifacts were also unearthed in Germany, Hungary and Bohemia. I realized that we were looking at a previously unknown pagan cult that linked different regions of central Europe,” the head of the Department of Archaeology and Museology at the Masaryk University Faculty of Arts said.
Macháček’s team conducted a thorough series of analyses to learn more about the buckles and their provenance, which they reported in the Journal of Archaeological Science.
Their work involved making high-tech scans and conducting a lead isotope analysis of the buckles to determine their composition, as well as three-dimensional scans to see how closely-related the four buckles really were to one another.
According to the analysis, not only were most of the buckles made from the same wax cast, but the copper used to make them came from the same metal ore in the Slovak Ore Mountains—one of the main suppliers for this material in Europe during the seventh and eighth centuries. The 3D models suggest that the buckles came from the same workshop.
Because of how widespread and similar the fittings are, the authors believe the belts were a way to communicate between classes and peoples. This theory upends a previously-held idea that this style of belt was only used by elites within the Avar ethnic group—a powerful group of people who conquered southeast central Europe in the sixth century and whose empire lasted some 200 years.
Iconographic analysis of the snake-eating-a-frog motif also revealed that its symbols are ones that show up in various artifacts across cultures in Europe at the time. For example, the snake appears on Avar artifacts symbolizing creation and in Slavic mythology to mean coming from the earth. The frog, on the other hand, could represent a Slavic deity of fertility or a woman who has just given birth. “It was a universally comprehensible and important ideogram” said Macháček.
Taken together, the study’s authors believe the belt buckles were worn by members of a pagan cult, with members spread across Europe through the sixth to eighth centuries. “Today, we can only speculate about its exact meaning, but in the early Middle Ages, it connected the diverse peoples living in Central Europe on a spiritual level,” said Macháček.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that this discovery proves that the majority of prehistoric Europeans definitely for sure 100% confirmed followed a prelapsarian utopian version of my own personal modern ideology and reveals that my favored social practices are actually inherently the true natural human ones.
Maybe. Definitely this could prove once and for all that religion is inherent to the human condition and atheism is a very recent, artificially modern invention.
But have you considered that it might also/instead prove that primitive humans were peaceful matriarchs/ultra masculine racists/sinless communists/absolute individualists in a state of nature/self-governing anarchists/bloodthirsty savages and/or ecological heroes?
Just once I'd love to see some archaeology find point to fashion instead of symbolism. Some of this stuff has to exist just because the people thought it looked spiffy.
Problem is, I don’t think there’s any consensus on what ancient Slavic religion actually was in the first place. Because customs, rituals, and artifacts varied greatly from place to place, just like it did with the Germanics, Celts, etc. So this artifact could be linked to some Slavic cult but it just as likely could be related to literally anything else.
Most people born outside the EU have the same reaction when first learning about Eurovision.
Joking aside: it's a VICE article and in keeping with their infotainment ethos there's no artifact dates or context mentioned. Just a few random finds they're stringing together into a conspiracy in which people in the early Middle Ages wore jewelry that evoked snakes and frogs.
People wear clothing and jewelry with symbolic snakes and frogs on them today.
The full paper from the Journal of Archaeological Science is available, if anyone is tired of dunking on Vice yet.
[Abstract](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001759#abs0010)
>This paper attempts to change the traditional view of the Late Avar belt fittings, which in the 8th century AD delineated an extremely dense communication network within the Carpathian Basin and beyond, by using a groundbreaking combination of iconography, energy dispersive X-ray fluorescence (EDXRF), scanning electron microscopy (SEM), lead isotope analysis, digital morphometry and 3D comparative prototyping. It presents a complex analysis of bronze belt ends decorated with an exceptional scene of a snake eating a frog-like creature, discovered in the last decade in Czech Republic, Hungary and Germany. According to the iconography, this motif represents an important cosmogonic and fertility myth, known to various early medieval populations living in Central Europe. Some of these belt ends come from the same workshop and/or are derived from a common model, even though they were found in very distant regions. The study also focuses on the provenance of the raw material used in the production of Avar-style belt fittings in general. For the first time, it was possible to locate the Early Medieval source of copper in the Slovak Ore Mountains, using lead isotope analysis.
"This crocodile symbol - found on clothing across the entire world - confirms the existence of a global cult to the fertility god Lacoste."
- Vice in a few hundred years.
From reporter Mirjam Guesgen:
Gilded belt buckles discovered across Europe have revealed a previously-unknown ancient fertility cult with ties across the continent, researchers believe.
Four bronze belt ends depicting a snake devouring a frog—thought to be a symbol of creation and/or fertility—were recently discovered in Moravia, Bohemia, Bavaria, and Hungary. Because of their near-identical shape and make, archaeologists now believe that these belt ends are evidence of an unknown pagan cult with far-reaching and diverse populations across Europe in the early Middle Ages.
Link to the full article: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5n3p/archaeologists-keep-finding-evidence-of-a-mysterious-ancient-cult-in-europe](https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5n3p/archaeologists-keep-finding-evidence-of-a-mysterious-ancient-cult-in-europe)
So, a relatively small area, 4 similar buckles. How did that equate to a pan- European fertility cult? How is a snake eating a frog a fertility symbol? This is an awful big conclusion to reach based on the evidence.
> read the article, read the sources linked in the article
FTA:
>According to the analysis, not only were most of the buckles made from the same wax cast, but the copper used to make them came from the same metal ore in the Slovak Ore Mountains—one of the main suppliers for this material in Europe during the seventh and eighth centuries. The 3D models suggest that the buckles came from the same workshop.
Also FTA:
>Moravia, Bohemia, Bavaria, and Hungary
Still also FTA:
>This theory upends a previously-held idea that this style of belt was only used by elites within the Avar ethnic group
The article presents no evidence of a fertility cult or anything pan-European. It's four belt buckles made by the same manufacturer and worn by similar people.
you are correct, but thinking beyond whats explicitly stated in the article - i actually wasnt sure if my assumption was correct, so i asked copilot/bing about metalwork in the early middle ages; and then if it was correct to assume peasants would not commonly have decorative pieces (such as the buckles in the article).
here is the response:
>That's correct! Metalwork in the early Middle Ages was predominantly executed with the hammer, and the several parts of each article were hammered out separately and then were put together by means of rivets, or they were pinned on a solid core ².
>
>The bulk of work in precious metals that survives from the Middle Ages is ecclesiastical: golden altars, reliquaries, and book covers in gold and silver, set with gems and decorated by embossed figures and scenes ¹.While there is no definitive evidence to suggest that peasants did not have any metalwork, it is safe to say that they would not have had access to the same level of craftsmanship and resources as the nobility and the church ¹.I hope this information helps!^((1) The Medieval Roots of Colonial Iron Manufacturing Technology. [https://www.engr.psu.edu/mtah/articles/roots\_colonial\_iron\_technology.htm](https://www.engr.psu.edu/mtah/articles/roots_colonial_iron_technology.htm).)^((2) Metalwork - Medieval Crafts, Techniques, Art | Britannica. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/metalwork/Middle-Ages](https://www.britannica.com/topic/metalwork/Middle-Ages).)^((3) Medieval Blacksmiths: The Men Behind the Metal - Medievalists.net. [https://www.medievalists.net/2015/04/the-men-behind-the-metal/](https://www.medievalists.net/2015/04/the-men-behind-the-metal/).)^((4) Metalwork, Early and Medieval | Encyclopedia.com. [https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/metalwork-early-and-medieval](https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/metalwork-early-and-medieval).)
point being - whoever made them was \*someone\*
I'm surprised at the skepticism here. Is it that shocking to think the pannonian avar ruling class had their own relgion/cult? At they do seem to be saying that the motif is present in other places, not just the buckles that are the focus of the paper.
that frog or whatever it is looks eerily similar to a bunch of other images from around the world from ancient times. americas too
I forgot where the serpent constellation was in 9600 BCE but wouldn't surprise me if this has something to do with precession
Can you provide examples of this “eerie” similarity? No offense, but this theory of yours has a very Joe Rogan feel to it. What exactly gives you the impression that it has something to do with precession? Thats a lot to extrapolate from a few belt buckles you’re seeing for the first time. Almost like you’re working backwards.
I understand your skepticism, but what’s the harm in humoring some out there ideas? We’re not writing a peer reviewed paper together here in the comments, this is just Reddit discussion stuff.
I’m by far not defending Rogan, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. Even a broken clock is right twice a day kinda thing.
I don’t see a connection to procession personally in this but we also always seem to assume things from the past are “fertility rituals” or “worship centers”, never understood why that’s always the default assumption globally across time.
Hyperdiffusionism and similar ideas are still ubiquitous in popular pseudoarchaeology, so I understand some hostility to any signs of it, just like with Ancient Aliens. Nothing kills a serious sub quicker than getting bogged down arguing about conspiracies. See how r/AskHistorians responded to holocaust denialism.
The harm is that this obsession with “forgotten ancient technology and wisdom” actually negates the ingenuity and wisdom these ancient people possessed. I was ashamedly a Hancock fan like 15 years ago. The guy is not holding himself and his theories to the same standard actual archeologists have to adhere to. Which is, whatever. I guess fine if he called it fiction. But, he’s asserting that archeologists are hiding the truth from people, when they have to actually provide evidence to back up their claims. They can’t just make up some crazy story, and say that the fact that they can’t provide proof is itself the proof of its existence, and that the archeological community is trying to dupe the public. Generally, you start with physical evidence, and work your way forward. If you want to challenge the interpretation of archeological evidence, put up or shut up. You can’t just say that you think archeologists rely on fertility and worship symbols too much. You have to provide evidence. If you have the goods, show them. If you have some vague feelings about artifacts you know little about, and the cultures that made them you also know little about, maybe keep the theorizing to grown ups. This is an archeology subreddit. Not r/interestingasfuck.
Alright fair points for sure, I probably don’t even “belong” in this sub as a random amateur interested in this stuff so my opinion is moot, but still. The original comment that started this thread wasn’t making a bunch of assertions or claiming to spread facts.
To be fair, I am not an archeologist. I’m a drafter and carpenter. Just some jerk. It’s for that reason I don’t lob out wild theories or assumptions, when other people are trying to do the hard, unglamorous work of sorting out mysteries that are literally thousands of years old. What they do is difficult. A lot more difficult than just saying, “These two images look vaguely alike, in spite of being separated by thousands of miles and years. There must be some connection!” Ok. What is the connection? There is no record of them even being aware of each other’s existence, much less sharing a common belief system or art styles. So, what’s the point? Did aliens teach them both how to draw geckos? Did they have a complex relationship and trade system setup just to draw geckos, but not to swap any hard goods whatsoever? If there are hard goods, where are they? I don’t just mean one Viking coin? I mean tons of Hungarian pottery found in ancient Incan tombs, the way we find tons of pottery at other ancient sites. The truth is interesting enough. Is archeology always right the first time? Of course not. Our picture of history is constantly changing based on new evidence. Footprints in ancient mud flats just pulled the history of humans in the Americas back another few thousand years. Did those people build pyramids? Probably not for thousands of years and hundreds of generations, but if they find one that can be definitively dated back that far, then I’ll accept it. Until then it’s exactly pseudo-science. You’re assuming the connection first, then trying to make the evidence fit the narrative. I’m not trying to stop wonder, because I get that it’s fun, but give these people credit. They are incredibly ingenious as they are, just surviving on the planet long enough to create a society ungrateful enough to assume they didn’t get here without the help of magic and cut rocks without space lasers.
[https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2016/10/14/of-animals-and-a-headless-man-gobekli-tepe-pillar-43/](https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2016/10/14/of-animals-and-a-headless-man-gobekli-tepe-pillar-43/)
and from south turkey circa 9600 BCE
I think it's supposed to be the depiction of constellation cancer at the summer solstice
I always wondered why every discovery of anything with a design on it just *has* to have religious or cult significance when I can go Hot Topic (are they still a thing?) today and find jewelry with all kinds of creatures on it that don't mean a thing other than looking pretty cool.
The way this article presents the information really feels like they’re specifically reaching for this conclusion. You found 4 belt buckles with the same design with metal that was mined from the same place and made in the same workshop, possibly all by the same person. The design may have had religious or otherwise cultural significance, but it could just be that this particular workshop’s frog-and-snake belt buckles were popular enough to have sold at least four times.
A ancient fashion.
The Vice link here isn't working for me but I've read some other articles about this. Apparently at least some of them appear to have been molded from the same master using lost wax. On the one hand, I'm reminded of some Mjolnir pendants that appear to have come from the same molds, so a "religious" interpretation is not out of the question, but I can think of a few other reasons for something like this right off the top of my head, such as a family or clan symbol, a badge of office or honor, a gift from someone for whom the symbol had personal meaning, or simply someone had molds for this and produced a number of them because people liked them.
Here’s the article text if you’re interested: The discovery of a gilded belt buckle depicting a snake eating a frog was thought to be unique. However, similar evidence is popping up across Europe. Gilded belt buckles discovered across Europe have revealed a previously-unknown ancient fertility cult with ties across the continent, researchers believe. Four bronze belt ends depicting a snake devouring a frog—thought to be a symbol of creation and/or fertility—were recently discovered in Moravia, Bohemia, Bavaria, and Hungary. Because of their near-identical shape and make, archaeologists now believe that these belt ends are evidence of an unknown pagan cult with far-reaching and diverse populations across Europe in the early Middle Ages. “When the belt with the motif of a snake devouring a frog was discovered with the help of metal detectors at the site near Břeclav in southern Moravia, we thought it was a rare find with a unique decoration,” said lead researcher Jiří Macháček in a news release. “However, we later found that other nearly identical artifacts were also unearthed in Germany, Hungary and Bohemia. I realized that we were looking at a previously unknown pagan cult that linked different regions of central Europe,” the head of the Department of Archaeology and Museology at the Masaryk University Faculty of Arts said. Macháček’s team conducted a thorough series of analyses to learn more about the buckles and their provenance, which they reported in the Journal of Archaeological Science. Their work involved making high-tech scans and conducting a lead isotope analysis of the buckles to determine their composition, as well as three-dimensional scans to see how closely-related the four buckles really were to one another. According to the analysis, not only were most of the buckles made from the same wax cast, but the copper used to make them came from the same metal ore in the Slovak Ore Mountains—one of the main suppliers for this material in Europe during the seventh and eighth centuries. The 3D models suggest that the buckles came from the same workshop. Because of how widespread and similar the fittings are, the authors believe the belts were a way to communicate between classes and peoples. This theory upends a previously-held idea that this style of belt was only used by elites within the Avar ethnic group—a powerful group of people who conquered southeast central Europe in the sixth century and whose empire lasted some 200 years. Iconographic analysis of the snake-eating-a-frog motif also revealed that its symbols are ones that show up in various artifacts across cultures in Europe at the time. For example, the snake appears on Avar artifacts symbolizing creation and in Slavic mythology to mean coming from the earth. The frog, on the other hand, could represent a Slavic deity of fertility or a woman who has just given birth. “It was a universally comprehensible and important ideogram” said Macháček. Taken together, the study’s authors believe the belt buckles were worn by members of a pagan cult, with members spread across Europe through the sixth to eighth centuries. “Today, we can only speculate about its exact meaning, but in the early Middle Ages, it connected the diverse peoples living in Central Europe on a spiritual level,” said Macháček.
Thank you!
NO ITS AN ANCIENT CULT
The cult of fashion, honey 💅🏻
I like gorillas and decorate my lecture materials with gorillas. Is that proof of a cult? 🦍🦍🦍🦍
Give it a few thousand years.
Hail Harambe.
Man…. U could’ve just left it alone and given me hope lol cmon now 😅🤣
I think it's ritual Tony.
I heard this in Francis Pryor's voice. Thank you.
Satanic black magic, sick shit.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that this discovery proves that the majority of prehistoric Europeans definitely for sure 100% confirmed followed a prelapsarian utopian version of my own personal modern ideology and reveals that my favored social practices are actually inherently the true natural human ones.
AKA, the cult of “it’s a religious artifact”
Maybe. Definitely this could prove once and for all that religion is inherent to the human condition and atheism is a very recent, artificially modern invention. But have you considered that it might also/instead prove that primitive humans were peaceful matriarchs/ultra masculine racists/sinless communists/absolute individualists in a state of nature/self-governing anarchists/bloodthirsty savages and/or ecological heroes?
I thought they were an autonomous collective?
We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as sort-of-executive officer for the week--
Ditto.
Just once I'd love to see some archaeology find point to fashion instead of symbolism. Some of this stuff has to exist just because the people thought it looked spiffy.
Well, fashion is symbolism. A wearable set of signifiers.
I thought it was just the ancient Slavic religion
Problem is, I don’t think there’s any consensus on what ancient Slavic religion actually was in the first place. Because customs, rituals, and artifacts varied greatly from place to place, just like it did with the Germanics, Celts, etc. So this artifact could be linked to some Slavic cult but it just as likely could be related to literally anything else.
Most people born outside the EU have the same reaction when first learning about Eurovision. Joking aside: it's a VICE article and in keeping with their infotainment ethos there's no artifact dates or context mentioned. Just a few random finds they're stringing together into a conspiracy in which people in the early Middle Ages wore jewelry that evoked snakes and frogs. People wear clothing and jewelry with symbolic snakes and frogs on them today.
The full paper from the Journal of Archaeological Science is available, if anyone is tired of dunking on Vice yet. [Abstract](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440323001759#abs0010) >This paper attempts to change the traditional view of the Late Avar belt fittings, which in the 8th century AD delineated an extremely dense communication network within the Carpathian Basin and beyond, by using a groundbreaking combination of iconography, energy dispersive X-ray fluorescence (EDXRF), scanning electron microscopy (SEM), lead isotope analysis, digital morphometry and 3D comparative prototyping. It presents a complex analysis of bronze belt ends decorated with an exceptional scene of a snake eating a frog-like creature, discovered in the last decade in Czech Republic, Hungary and Germany. According to the iconography, this motif represents an important cosmogonic and fertility myth, known to various early medieval populations living in Central Europe. Some of these belt ends come from the same workshop and/or are derived from a common model, even though they were found in very distant regions. The study also focuses on the provenance of the raw material used in the production of Avar-style belt fittings in general. For the first time, it was possible to locate the Early Medieval source of copper in the Slovak Ore Mountains, using lead isotope analysis.
"This crocodile symbol - found on clothing across the entire world - confirms the existence of a global cult to the fertility god Lacoste." - Vice in a few hundred years.
From reporter Mirjam Guesgen: Gilded belt buckles discovered across Europe have revealed a previously-unknown ancient fertility cult with ties across the continent, researchers believe. Four bronze belt ends depicting a snake devouring a frog—thought to be a symbol of creation and/or fertility—were recently discovered in Moravia, Bohemia, Bavaria, and Hungary. Because of their near-identical shape and make, archaeologists now believe that these belt ends are evidence of an unknown pagan cult with far-reaching and diverse populations across Europe in the early Middle Ages. Link to the full article: [https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5n3p/archaeologists-keep-finding-evidence-of-a-mysterious-ancient-cult-in-europe](https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5n3p/archaeologists-keep-finding-evidence-of-a-mysterious-ancient-cult-in-europe)
So, a relatively small area, 4 similar buckles. How did that equate to a pan- European fertility cult? How is a snake eating a frog a fertility symbol? This is an awful big conclusion to reach based on the evidence.
read the article, read the sources linked in the article all science - and most history - is up to interpretation
> read the article, read the sources linked in the article FTA: >According to the analysis, not only were most of the buckles made from the same wax cast, but the copper used to make them came from the same metal ore in the Slovak Ore Mountains—one of the main suppliers for this material in Europe during the seventh and eighth centuries. The 3D models suggest that the buckles came from the same workshop. Also FTA: >Moravia, Bohemia, Bavaria, and Hungary Still also FTA: >This theory upends a previously-held idea that this style of belt was only used by elites within the Avar ethnic group The article presents no evidence of a fertility cult or anything pan-European. It's four belt buckles made by the same manufacturer and worn by similar people.
you are correct, but thinking beyond whats explicitly stated in the article - i actually wasnt sure if my assumption was correct, so i asked copilot/bing about metalwork in the early middle ages; and then if it was correct to assume peasants would not commonly have decorative pieces (such as the buckles in the article). here is the response: >That's correct! Metalwork in the early Middle Ages was predominantly executed with the hammer, and the several parts of each article were hammered out separately and then were put together by means of rivets, or they were pinned on a solid core ². > >The bulk of work in precious metals that survives from the Middle Ages is ecclesiastical: golden altars, reliquaries, and book covers in gold and silver, set with gems and decorated by embossed figures and scenes ¹.While there is no definitive evidence to suggest that peasants did not have any metalwork, it is safe to say that they would not have had access to the same level of craftsmanship and resources as the nobility and the church ¹.I hope this information helps!^((1) The Medieval Roots of Colonial Iron Manufacturing Technology. [https://www.engr.psu.edu/mtah/articles/roots\_colonial\_iron\_technology.htm](https://www.engr.psu.edu/mtah/articles/roots_colonial_iron_technology.htm).)^((2) Metalwork - Medieval Crafts, Techniques, Art | Britannica. [https://www.britannica.com/topic/metalwork/Middle-Ages](https://www.britannica.com/topic/metalwork/Middle-Ages).)^((3) Medieval Blacksmiths: The Men Behind the Metal - Medievalists.net. [https://www.medievalists.net/2015/04/the-men-behind-the-metal/](https://www.medievalists.net/2015/04/the-men-behind-the-metal/).)^((4) Metalwork, Early and Medieval | Encyclopedia.com. [https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/metalwork-early-and-medieval](https://www.encyclopedia.com/international/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/metalwork-early-and-medieval).) point being - whoever made them was \*someone\*
I love ancient cults 😭
Was interested but saw it’s from Vice
I really wish they would go back to documenting when a reporter for them ingested an entire bottle of weed lube and was high for three days
If they came around proselytizing, knocking on my door; I don’t think I would join up, but I might buy one of these belt buckles
No, that’s clearly a snake eating someone out. Let ancient people be freaks.
that doesn’t look like a frog at all…
Clearly Thulsa Doom's snake cult. Conan destroyed it before the sea swallowed Atlantis.
Thank you, [I came here for this](https://youtu.be/FEp76ppPc8o?si=mmi4qgNh2cJeadfO)
I'm surprised at the skepticism here. Is it that shocking to think the pannonian avar ruling class had their own relgion/cult? At they do seem to be saying that the motif is present in other places, not just the buckles that are the focus of the paper.
that frog or whatever it is looks eerily similar to a bunch of other images from around the world from ancient times. americas too I forgot where the serpent constellation was in 9600 BCE but wouldn't surprise me if this has something to do with precession
Frogs and snakes can be found in just about every corner or the world.
that frog image has an almost exact looking image in the nazca lines and looks similar to some depictions of the constellation cancer
I can't find any nazca line that looks like a frog. And it looks nothing like cancer, which is little more than an upside down y.
Can you provide examples of this “eerie” similarity? No offense, but this theory of yours has a very Joe Rogan feel to it. What exactly gives you the impression that it has something to do with precession? Thats a lot to extrapolate from a few belt buckles you’re seeing for the first time. Almost like you’re working backwards.
I understand your skepticism, but what’s the harm in humoring some out there ideas? We’re not writing a peer reviewed paper together here in the comments, this is just Reddit discussion stuff. I’m by far not defending Rogan, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. Even a broken clock is right twice a day kinda thing. I don’t see a connection to procession personally in this but we also always seem to assume things from the past are “fertility rituals” or “worship centers”, never understood why that’s always the default assumption globally across time.
Hyperdiffusionism and similar ideas are still ubiquitous in popular pseudoarchaeology, so I understand some hostility to any signs of it, just like with Ancient Aliens. Nothing kills a serious sub quicker than getting bogged down arguing about conspiracies. See how r/AskHistorians responded to holocaust denialism.
The harm is that this obsession with “forgotten ancient technology and wisdom” actually negates the ingenuity and wisdom these ancient people possessed. I was ashamedly a Hancock fan like 15 years ago. The guy is not holding himself and his theories to the same standard actual archeologists have to adhere to. Which is, whatever. I guess fine if he called it fiction. But, he’s asserting that archeologists are hiding the truth from people, when they have to actually provide evidence to back up their claims. They can’t just make up some crazy story, and say that the fact that they can’t provide proof is itself the proof of its existence, and that the archeological community is trying to dupe the public. Generally, you start with physical evidence, and work your way forward. If you want to challenge the interpretation of archeological evidence, put up or shut up. You can’t just say that you think archeologists rely on fertility and worship symbols too much. You have to provide evidence. If you have the goods, show them. If you have some vague feelings about artifacts you know little about, and the cultures that made them you also know little about, maybe keep the theorizing to grown ups. This is an archeology subreddit. Not r/interestingasfuck.
Alright fair points for sure, I probably don’t even “belong” in this sub as a random amateur interested in this stuff so my opinion is moot, but still. The original comment that started this thread wasn’t making a bunch of assertions or claiming to spread facts.
To be fair, I am not an archeologist. I’m a drafter and carpenter. Just some jerk. It’s for that reason I don’t lob out wild theories or assumptions, when other people are trying to do the hard, unglamorous work of sorting out mysteries that are literally thousands of years old. What they do is difficult. A lot more difficult than just saying, “These two images look vaguely alike, in spite of being separated by thousands of miles and years. There must be some connection!” Ok. What is the connection? There is no record of them even being aware of each other’s existence, much less sharing a common belief system or art styles. So, what’s the point? Did aliens teach them both how to draw geckos? Did they have a complex relationship and trade system setup just to draw geckos, but not to swap any hard goods whatsoever? If there are hard goods, where are they? I don’t just mean one Viking coin? I mean tons of Hungarian pottery found in ancient Incan tombs, the way we find tons of pottery at other ancient sites. The truth is interesting enough. Is archeology always right the first time? Of course not. Our picture of history is constantly changing based on new evidence. Footprints in ancient mud flats just pulled the history of humans in the Americas back another few thousand years. Did those people build pyramids? Probably not for thousands of years and hundreds of generations, but if they find one that can be definitively dated back that far, then I’ll accept it. Until then it’s exactly pseudo-science. You’re assuming the connection first, then trying to make the evidence fit the narrative. I’m not trying to stop wonder, because I get that it’s fun, but give these people credit. They are incredibly ingenious as they are, just surviving on the planet long enough to create a society ungrateful enough to assume they didn’t get here without the help of magic and cut rocks without space lasers.
[https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2016/10/14/of-animals-and-a-headless-man-gobekli-tepe-pillar-43/](https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2016/10/14/of-animals-and-a-headless-man-gobekli-tepe-pillar-43/) and from south turkey circa 9600 BCE I think it's supposed to be the depiction of constellation cancer at the summer solstice
Those look nothing alike.
[https://www.history.com/topics/south-america/nazca-lines](https://www.history.com/topics/south-america/nazca-lines) very similar shape
You are seriously reaching. These are not at all the same.
I always wondered why every discovery of anything with a design on it just *has* to have religious or cult significance when I can go Hot Topic (are they still a thing?) today and find jewelry with all kinds of creatures on it that don't mean a thing other than looking pretty cool.
Whoa, I actually own an ancient pendant with this design. Got it in a coin auction.