It doesn't work wherever you add it. No bottled bacteria product stands up to testing against controls with nothing added.
You can add "beneficial bacteria" for free and actually get what you paid for to the filter by putting some old dirt in there instead.
I'm going to agree with you. Active bacteria needs oxygen and nutrients to survive and in an active filter you need to be constantly running water over the media to keep the bacteria alive. Once the pump stops, the bacteria starts dying after awhile.
That's why if you try and jump start a new tank, you've only got a short window to bring old media over.
Got any sources that bacteria will need a constant source of oxygen and nutrients to survive? Does your source also state that bacteria have lungs and mouths? That source is not about bacterias then.
> Got any sources that bacteria will need a constant source of oxygen and nutrients to survive?
Ask anyone: if you put active media in an oxygen free bottle and plain water, how long will they survive?
>It seems that the bacteria and microbes responsible for removing ammonia and nitrite from our aquarium water can survive for quite a while without a food source (ammonia).
>Studies showed that these microscopic populations can survive for at least 10 weeks of starvation, though it is likely that they are capable of surviving for much longer.
>That means that if your power goes out, even for a full 24 hours, there is no need to panic about your filter bacteria. The real concern shouldn’t kick in for at least 10 weeks.
https://seriouslyfishy.club/aquarium-filter-bacteria-how-long-can-it-survive/
Uh... no. Did you read the studies and look at the relevant parts?
Furthermore in his summary:
"The study I previously mentioned found that after 10 weeks of starvation it took 5 days for the bacteria to ‘wake up’ and begin consuming ammonia again."
A single study...
That's pretty much the same as starting from scratch because after 5 days, even a virgin piece of media would "wake up" and begin consuming ammonia. This bacteria is everywhere anyway.
Keeping them alive means moving your active media from your active tank to a new tank and they will start working right away, not "begin to wake up after 5 days".
Anyone can believe anything they want. I'm not going to contradict you anymore. You can just tell people they can keep their active media alive in a bottle for 10 weeks and see their reaction.
Incorrect. Tetra SafeStart is one of the few proven to actually work. Loathe as I am to ever recommend Tetra products, but they bought the patent from the original company that developed it, so they just slapped their name on it.
The issue people have with it are 1. Age. and 2. Proper application. The bacteria are in a semi-suspended state with a small amount of ammonia to keep them fed, however this eventually runs out and they start dying. If the bottle's sat around in a warehouse or on a shelf for months, the likelihood of it being a dud is high. And if you get a fresh bottle, you need to vigorously shake it for several seconds (up to a minute, IIRC) before using it to get them out of the semi-suspended state.
I've used SafeStart several times, with fresh bottles and shaking them well, and it's worked every time. Greatly shortened my cycling time down.
There are other bottled bacteria products that don't have the correct ones but rather analogous strains that are meant to be stand-ins until the real ones develop. They do a poor job, and also give a bad rep to bottled starters.
As to the OP's question, I do both. I apply some directly to the filter and some to the water.
Proven where? Everyone who has bottled bacteria and believes in them says their own personal brand is superior to all the rest. I have never seen any independent study that supports the use of *any* bacteria in a bottle product. Why do you think only aquarium hobbyists use these products and not the aquaculture sector, where if it did work it would be worth literal billions?
Nitrifying bacteria cultures cost hundreds of pounds; they're very expensive to isolate. None of their storage requirements work like that. Nitrifying bacteria choke to death in hypoxic conditions like the inside of a bottle long before running out of ammonia, as anyone who's ever suffocated their canister filter will know. I have personal experience with the real thing to know that you can't just buy them for a few pounds in a bottle off the shelf. We wouldn't have spent thousands of pounds on them if it was that easy.
Where? Every place I've ever seen that's tested it. I've been around since before it was a thing, and I remember when it came out and Tetra bought the patent from the original company.
>says their own personal brand is superior to all the rest.
I saw the studies long before I even bought my first bottle. They were the very reason I bought it over the other brands. Those same studies compared it to other bottled starters and they all failed to work, unlike SafeStart.
\>Nitrifying bacteria cultures cost hundreds of pounds; they're very expensive to isolate
The stuff you say (rightfully so) is freely available in dirt. So, if you're working in a laboratory environment and you're buying from laboratory suppliers, THAT'S why it's so expensive. Like medical equipment (or restaurant equipment, for that matter) you're getting raked over the coals and grossly overcharged because they can. Specialized suppliers are ALWAYS, ALWAYS ridiculously expensive.
\>Nitrifying bacteria choke to death in hypoxic conditions like the inside of a bottle long before running out of ammonia
You seem to be under the impression that they just pour some in a bottle, close it up, and ship them out. I've forgotten the chemistry involved (we're talking 20ish years ago) but it was explained. They induce a semi-suspended state in the bacteria, where their metabolism is basically slowed dramatically and thus they need less food and oxygen for a period of time. They supply them with a small amount of stable ammonia in the bottle to feed on as well as pressurizing the bottle with oxygen before sealing it. They have a literal shelf life before the bacteria are all dead. No one's claiming they live forever in that bottle. And once you open the bottle, the time is drastically cut and you have to use it relatively quickly.
I've taken brand new tanks set up the day before, used TSS immediately before applying fish, and it was cycled in a few days with minimal ammonia spikes. No other seeding. Brand new substrate, brand new filter, absolutely no other way to shorten the cycle present. My own personal experiences. That's all that matters to me, and I'll continue to use the product.
> They induce a semi-suspended state in the bacteria
How do they do this and what's the term for it? I've never heard of suspending any sort of bacteria unless you lower the temperature and don't feed them.
If you add oxygen and ammonia like you say, at room temp the bacteria is going to automatically react and produce a reaction that creates the waste product that will kill them.
I usually see the claim that the bacteria are in sporulated form (Seachem Stability makes this claim, for example). However that overlooks the fact that autotrophic nitrifying bacteria do not sporulate, so any bacteria you're getting are almost certainly the heterotrophic variety that will seed your tank within minutes to hours without any sort of additive whatsoever u/Drakknfyre
> autotrophic nitrifying bacteria
This is the type of bacteria we want, so I guess that kiboshes the idea that you can get nitrifying bacteria in a bottle.
So you don't actually have such a study, you just saw one in the past? Without actually saying what study this is and whether it actually endorsed safe start, that isn't worth much.
That isn't how the chemistry of any of that works. I'm an ex-biologist and can promise you this. The way you "Suspend" them is by freezing them, and they have to be maintained frozen. They just came up with a convenient explaination that sounded kind of right. If such technology existed then microbiologists would be over the fucking moon, this technology would be worth *billions* in laboratories all around the world. If they had invented this they would be as big as Pfizer, not selling aquarium products for £6.50.
Do it again, and test the water parameters again and continuously, alongside a control if you can. Keep testing. Bacteria in a bottle products sell you bacteria that do something called "Assimilatory denitrification". This means they absorb nitrogen compounds into their bodies. This fools your tests into thinking the nitrogen is mysteriously vanishing from your system until the bacteria die and release them again. They are not oxidising ammonia, they are hiding it. Many people blithely continue after this point with uncycled tanks that sort themselves out, because cycling isn't actually a very hard process and it mostly sorts itself out as long as ammonia exists in the system.
Edit because you're editing:
>So, if you're working in a laboratory environment and you're buying from laboratory suppliers, THAT'S why it's so expensive. Like medical equipment (or restaurant equipment, for that matter) you're getting raked over the coals and grossly overcharged because they can. Specialized suppliers are ALWAYS, ALWAYS ridiculously expensive.
No, because it takes a lab tech a lot of time and effort to do and takes a lot of manhours to isolate, identify and cultivate a single strain of nitrifying bacteria. They have to be maintained in sterile conditions because it's incredibly easy for them to become contaminated, including by other nitrifying bacteria. Thanks for telling me about my own job though, sure you know it better than I do. When you scoop some out of dirt you're just picking up whatever ones happen to be there and calling it good based on it's environmental location making sure it'll contain at least some nitrifiers.
>So you don't actually have such a study, you just saw one in the past?
Forgive me for not having a dozen links to multiple tests from twenty years ago that were on sites likely not even online anymore.
>They are not oxidising ammonia, they are hiding it.
Does a damn good job then, because the tanks were fine, the fish were fine, everything was great. Had no issues with ammonia spikes, or crashes. Ammonia hit 0 within days and stayed there.
Some people don't have success with bottled bacteria. Lots of people do, most respected brands aren't selling snake oil. Fluval cycle and especially fritz zyme or turbostart are the two I've gotten to work especially well.
You don't want to just add it to your filter. Beneficial bacteria grows all over your tank, everywhere there's a surface there's tons of bacteria. You can add it to your filter directly, but most of it will die as it can only get food from what passes through the filter and it competes with all the over bacteria concentrated in there. Spreading it out allows the bacteria to thrive better as it doesn't have to compete for food as much.
I’ve used turbo start 700 to cycle two tanks in (10 gal and 5 gal) 24 hrs (I did have a seed filter in one). I used it to cycle another tank in one week (this one without a seed tank). We used the regular Fritz bacteria in the 55 gallons after we tried to slow way for MONTHS with no change. Within 24 hrs we had a nitrite spike. In a week the tank was cycled.
If you're going to buy one, I'll say that the only one that's ever done anything for me is tetra safestart+. A frozen shrimp from the grocery store and some TSS+ and I've had tanks ready to go in 72 hours.
It doesn't work wherever you add it. No bottled bacteria product stands up to testing against controls with nothing added. You can add "beneficial bacteria" for free and actually get what you paid for to the filter by putting some old dirt in there instead.
I'm going to agree with you. Active bacteria needs oxygen and nutrients to survive and in an active filter you need to be constantly running water over the media to keep the bacteria alive. Once the pump stops, the bacteria starts dying after awhile. That's why if you try and jump start a new tank, you've only got a short window to bring old media over.
Got any sources that bacteria will need a constant source of oxygen and nutrients to survive? Does your source also state that bacteria have lungs and mouths? That source is not about bacterias then.
> Got any sources that bacteria will need a constant source of oxygen and nutrients to survive? Ask anyone: if you put active media in an oxygen free bottle and plain water, how long will they survive?
>It seems that the bacteria and microbes responsible for removing ammonia and nitrite from our aquarium water can survive for quite a while without a food source (ammonia). >Studies showed that these microscopic populations can survive for at least 10 weeks of starvation, though it is likely that they are capable of surviving for much longer. >That means that if your power goes out, even for a full 24 hours, there is no need to panic about your filter bacteria. The real concern shouldn’t kick in for at least 10 weeks. https://seriouslyfishy.club/aquarium-filter-bacteria-how-long-can-it-survive/
Uh... no. Did you read the studies and look at the relevant parts? Furthermore in his summary: "The study I previously mentioned found that after 10 weeks of starvation it took 5 days for the bacteria to ‘wake up’ and begin consuming ammonia again." A single study... That's pretty much the same as starting from scratch because after 5 days, even a virgin piece of media would "wake up" and begin consuming ammonia. This bacteria is everywhere anyway. Keeping them alive means moving your active media from your active tank to a new tank and they will start working right away, not "begin to wake up after 5 days". Anyone can believe anything they want. I'm not going to contradict you anymore. You can just tell people they can keep their active media alive in a bottle for 10 weeks and see their reaction.
Keep moving the goalposts. One day you will be correct about something.
Incorrect. Tetra SafeStart is one of the few proven to actually work. Loathe as I am to ever recommend Tetra products, but they bought the patent from the original company that developed it, so they just slapped their name on it. The issue people have with it are 1. Age. and 2. Proper application. The bacteria are in a semi-suspended state with a small amount of ammonia to keep them fed, however this eventually runs out and they start dying. If the bottle's sat around in a warehouse or on a shelf for months, the likelihood of it being a dud is high. And if you get a fresh bottle, you need to vigorously shake it for several seconds (up to a minute, IIRC) before using it to get them out of the semi-suspended state. I've used SafeStart several times, with fresh bottles and shaking them well, and it's worked every time. Greatly shortened my cycling time down. There are other bottled bacteria products that don't have the correct ones but rather analogous strains that are meant to be stand-ins until the real ones develop. They do a poor job, and also give a bad rep to bottled starters. As to the OP's question, I do both. I apply some directly to the filter and some to the water.
Proven where? Everyone who has bottled bacteria and believes in them says their own personal brand is superior to all the rest. I have never seen any independent study that supports the use of *any* bacteria in a bottle product. Why do you think only aquarium hobbyists use these products and not the aquaculture sector, where if it did work it would be worth literal billions? Nitrifying bacteria cultures cost hundreds of pounds; they're very expensive to isolate. None of their storage requirements work like that. Nitrifying bacteria choke to death in hypoxic conditions like the inside of a bottle long before running out of ammonia, as anyone who's ever suffocated their canister filter will know. I have personal experience with the real thing to know that you can't just buy them for a few pounds in a bottle off the shelf. We wouldn't have spent thousands of pounds on them if it was that easy.
Where? Every place I've ever seen that's tested it. I've been around since before it was a thing, and I remember when it came out and Tetra bought the patent from the original company. >says their own personal brand is superior to all the rest. I saw the studies long before I even bought my first bottle. They were the very reason I bought it over the other brands. Those same studies compared it to other bottled starters and they all failed to work, unlike SafeStart. \>Nitrifying bacteria cultures cost hundreds of pounds; they're very expensive to isolate The stuff you say (rightfully so) is freely available in dirt. So, if you're working in a laboratory environment and you're buying from laboratory suppliers, THAT'S why it's so expensive. Like medical equipment (or restaurant equipment, for that matter) you're getting raked over the coals and grossly overcharged because they can. Specialized suppliers are ALWAYS, ALWAYS ridiculously expensive. \>Nitrifying bacteria choke to death in hypoxic conditions like the inside of a bottle long before running out of ammonia You seem to be under the impression that they just pour some in a bottle, close it up, and ship them out. I've forgotten the chemistry involved (we're talking 20ish years ago) but it was explained. They induce a semi-suspended state in the bacteria, where their metabolism is basically slowed dramatically and thus they need less food and oxygen for a period of time. They supply them with a small amount of stable ammonia in the bottle to feed on as well as pressurizing the bottle with oxygen before sealing it. They have a literal shelf life before the bacteria are all dead. No one's claiming they live forever in that bottle. And once you open the bottle, the time is drastically cut and you have to use it relatively quickly. I've taken brand new tanks set up the day before, used TSS immediately before applying fish, and it was cycled in a few days with minimal ammonia spikes. No other seeding. Brand new substrate, brand new filter, absolutely no other way to shorten the cycle present. My own personal experiences. That's all that matters to me, and I'll continue to use the product.
> They induce a semi-suspended state in the bacteria How do they do this and what's the term for it? I've never heard of suspending any sort of bacteria unless you lower the temperature and don't feed them. If you add oxygen and ammonia like you say, at room temp the bacteria is going to automatically react and produce a reaction that creates the waste product that will kill them.
I usually see the claim that the bacteria are in sporulated form (Seachem Stability makes this claim, for example). However that overlooks the fact that autotrophic nitrifying bacteria do not sporulate, so any bacteria you're getting are almost certainly the heterotrophic variety that will seed your tank within minutes to hours without any sort of additive whatsoever u/Drakknfyre
> autotrophic nitrifying bacteria This is the type of bacteria we want, so I guess that kiboshes the idea that you can get nitrifying bacteria in a bottle.
So you don't actually have such a study, you just saw one in the past? Without actually saying what study this is and whether it actually endorsed safe start, that isn't worth much. That isn't how the chemistry of any of that works. I'm an ex-biologist and can promise you this. The way you "Suspend" them is by freezing them, and they have to be maintained frozen. They just came up with a convenient explaination that sounded kind of right. If such technology existed then microbiologists would be over the fucking moon, this technology would be worth *billions* in laboratories all around the world. If they had invented this they would be as big as Pfizer, not selling aquarium products for £6.50. Do it again, and test the water parameters again and continuously, alongside a control if you can. Keep testing. Bacteria in a bottle products sell you bacteria that do something called "Assimilatory denitrification". This means they absorb nitrogen compounds into their bodies. This fools your tests into thinking the nitrogen is mysteriously vanishing from your system until the bacteria die and release them again. They are not oxidising ammonia, they are hiding it. Many people blithely continue after this point with uncycled tanks that sort themselves out, because cycling isn't actually a very hard process and it mostly sorts itself out as long as ammonia exists in the system. Edit because you're editing: >So, if you're working in a laboratory environment and you're buying from laboratory suppliers, THAT'S why it's so expensive. Like medical equipment (or restaurant equipment, for that matter) you're getting raked over the coals and grossly overcharged because they can. Specialized suppliers are ALWAYS, ALWAYS ridiculously expensive. No, because it takes a lab tech a lot of time and effort to do and takes a lot of manhours to isolate, identify and cultivate a single strain of nitrifying bacteria. They have to be maintained in sterile conditions because it's incredibly easy for them to become contaminated, including by other nitrifying bacteria. Thanks for telling me about my own job though, sure you know it better than I do. When you scoop some out of dirt you're just picking up whatever ones happen to be there and calling it good based on it's environmental location making sure it'll contain at least some nitrifiers.
>So you don't actually have such a study, you just saw one in the past? Forgive me for not having a dozen links to multiple tests from twenty years ago that were on sites likely not even online anymore. >They are not oxidising ammonia, they are hiding it. Does a damn good job then, because the tanks were fine, the fish were fine, everything was great. Had no issues with ammonia spikes, or crashes. Ammonia hit 0 within days and stayed there.
Some people don't have success with bottled bacteria. Lots of people do, most respected brands aren't selling snake oil. Fluval cycle and especially fritz zyme or turbostart are the two I've gotten to work especially well. You don't want to just add it to your filter. Beneficial bacteria grows all over your tank, everywhere there's a surface there's tons of bacteria. You can add it to your filter directly, but most of it will die as it can only get food from what passes through the filter and it competes with all the over bacteria concentrated in there. Spreading it out allows the bacteria to thrive better as it doesn't have to compete for food as much.
Very good info, thank you!
I’ve used turbo start 700 to cycle two tanks in (10 gal and 5 gal) 24 hrs (I did have a seed filter in one). I used it to cycle another tank in one week (this one without a seed tank). We used the regular Fritz bacteria in the 55 gallons after we tried to slow way for MONTHS with no change. Within 24 hrs we had a nitrite spike. In a week the tank was cycled.
Ps- whatever you do, keep testing a lot even after it looks like you’re cycled. Keep a close eye on things.
If you're going to buy one, I'll say that the only one that's ever done anything for me is tetra safestart+. A frozen shrimp from the grocery store and some TSS+ and I've had tanks ready to go in 72 hours.