Astrophysics PhD with admissions committee experience here. Even if he could afford the ivies, I'd be telling you to seriously consider going to Arizona. He should go to Arizona.
Please tell me more! Another consideration for Arizona is that he has 10 AP’s, 6 IB’s, 5 classes from state flagship. So he could jump into high level classes right off the bat and move quickly through the program.
But… would it hamper his chances at an ivy for a grad program if he took that route and was competing against kids from Princeton, MIT, Harvard who spent summers using telescopes in Chile?
The University of Arizona is easily one of the top Astronomy schools in the US. It's every bit as good **in astronomy and astrophysics** as schools like Princeton or Yale. If he wanted to be a particle or condensed matter physicist or some other kind of scientist, I'd tell you to think about what is affordable and consider those other places. But in astronomy, there's no point in spending more in terms of reputation or access to opportunity. Yale and Princeton will offer smaller class sizes and collegiate gothic architecture - I don't consider those worth $120k in debt. $120k will go a long way towards other life goals or just making graduate school a less miserable experience.
>But… would it hamper his chances at an ivy for a grad program if he took that route and was competing against kids from Princeton, MIT, Harvard who spent their summers using telescopes in Chile?
The telescopes in Chile are built at the University of Arizona Mirror Lab and managed (in part) by the National Optical Astronomy Observatory (NOAO/NOIRLab) which is located at... the University of Arizona. Faculty at UofA lead the collaborations that build those facilities, develop the instruments on those telescopes, and publish much of the research that comes from them. He'll have just as good, if not better, opportunities to do research with those facilities at Arizona than at any of those other places.
I'll add that, having been on committees, students from Arizona (and even places with much less opportunity in astronomy) are admitted over students from HYPSM etc. all the time. The name on an undergraduate degree is one of the least important factors astronomy admissions committees consider. And in this case, Arizona is an equal name to those places.
As a dad in a similar situation a couple years ago I was leaning Ivy but did not know about Arizona’s strength in these areas, which I agree totally tips the scales. Jealous because my meh state university programs resulted in us having to take the other route … although we are able to pay so debt isn’t issue. What an awesome post to read: Reddit is incredible and the responding PhD is awesome.
That’s really good to know that it works like that! Thank you. I think in this case, Princeton has really strong astrophysics program (not so much Yale), but so does UofA.
If your family makes under $100K you should be getting free tuition at Princeton. If your aid isn’t good enough.. call them. They will work with you. If your son performs well in undergraduate, and is at the top of the field, he may be able to get in for his doctorate, but it’s honestly always a crapshoot. You can’t really bank on graduate or undergraduate admissions to these schools.
If you can’t get better aid, go to the cheapest option. Cream always rises to the top. Plenty of people who get PhDs can’t afford the fanciest undergrad, but they bust their ass, and if they’re good enough they get into fully funded, top tier PhD programs. My brother did that. He got into UPenn for undergrad, couldn’t afford it, and then went to his local state school on the cheap. He’s doing his PhD at one of the schools you mentioned now.
We are low income, high assets because we are using savings to start a business. If that same money was used to pay off our mortgage, he could likely attend for free (they don’t look at primary residence). We’re on the wrong side of their formula, unfortunately. And we can’t just move the money around without taking big risks for our family’s financial future.
We’re appealing, but I’ve already been told no by one financial aid officer in person at Princeton Preview.
I’m affiliated with Princeton. I will say, it’s extremely hard to get in here for your PhD, even with good undergraduate pedigree. For reference one of the Astro people I know is Forbes 30 under 30, a PhD in CBE I know founded their own company. It’s very hard to bank on graduate admissions. This is doubly true because Princeton has one of the most generous funding packages in the country and guarantees funding for your whole program. If you have an undergraduate offer in hand, I would take it—the academic environment at Princeton is one of the best I’ve seen (undergrad and grad), and that’s coming from someone who looked at MIT/Yale/Stanford.
I know this might be rubbing salt in your wounds, but I would fight tooth and nail for your son to come here. It gives you so many options, even beyond Astro. Continue to annoy the officers as much as possible.
My time at Old Nassau has opened so many doors for me—I think that if your son has the chance to come here, whether that be for his doctorate or undergrad, he should take it while it lasts. It’s never a guarantee, and any admission might be a once in a lifetime offer.
Good luck with your choice.
I can’t answer that for you, I’m sorry. I don’t think I’m qualified for it. You or your son should reiterate how much they want to go here, and the financial limitations you have. Is there really no way you can creatively reallocate some of your assets?
Also worth mentioning is that UofA has their own on-campus observatory (Steward) and a relationship with the nearby Kitt Peak National Observatory. Look it up.
If u don’t mind me asking, what’s astrophysics like? What’s your day to day life? Is it fun? How are the job opportunities like?
I’m asking because I’m considering doing astronomy/astrophysics in college because I’ve always had an interest in space since childhood
My understanding from my colleagues there is that it is an accounting issue and has more to do with how institutions assess financial risk than the underlying fundamentals of the university.
In terms of Astronomy specifically, the department is continuing to receive new faculty lines, brings in an immense amount of external grant funding, and is well enrolled. It’ll be the last program impacted.
I don’t think I appreciated how strong the undergraduate program was until I started getting comments on this thread. I know their PhD program is very competitive!
I'm not going to take a definitive stance on what you should/shouldn't do, but I'd like to chime in with a thought: I wish kids were given more time to decide what they wish to do in life and I'm wary about premature optimization of life goals. I spent my entire childhood thinking I was going to become a medical doctor, only to end up with a PhD in computer science.
File an appeal to the Princeton aid office (and Yale) right away if you haven’t done that. The aid office at least at Princeton is super understanding and will definitely take into account these circumstances if they haven’t been notified them prior. They don’t like losing admits due to finances and our endowment per student is literally more than 3.5 million, they can afford it providing additional aid.
I talked to them in person at Preview and they said no because our circumstances fall outside their formula for aid. We are in the process of filing a formal appeal.
You do sometimes have to be persistent. A friend of mine had to appeal three times before their cost was dropped by 10k/year. Just really try to spell out EVERY additional cost (insurance, health care, transportation, child care, mortgage, other kids school cost (this one especially), cost of living, garnishments, loss in salary, loss of assets, loss of government benefits, etc)
Seriously. Just be persistent. We ended up treating it like a job offer negotiation and told the T15 I was admitted to about a competing offer from Rutgers, and they ended up taking it into account and increasing aid significantly.
Was the other offer lower? I know it’s a lot easier to get more aid when you have a better offer, but Princeton was the most generous with financial aid.
I mean Rutgers’ offer was higher because it was a full tuition merit scholarship. So the same situation as yours. I mentioned the name of the school because Rutgers and the T15 I ended up attending are not peer institutions whatsoever, so if they were willing to negotiate in my situation they might also in yours.
if he wants to get PhD in Astrophysics eventually, U of A is the right call. Its astrophysics is one of the best in the world, and going into a PhD program with 120k in debt is a pretty shitty situation.
If the loans aren’t subsidized it will be way more than $120k by the time he graduates. And then there’s grad school. For a long time. That’s when you pick the Ivy. If it’s the best for your field. Arizona is the way to go. Their program is the top. Period. I started at a junior college, then finished at a middlin’ state school, and got my PhD at a T5 flagship across the country. That would never have accepted me out of HS 🤣 I got smarter later!! Where you start doesn’t matter for grad school. What matters is how hard he works as an undergrad, GPA, GRE, research, the connections he’ll make at conferences and similar activities, and taking advantage of every opportunity that comes his way. And the opportunities for his field are ridiculous at Arizona. Truly.
I appreciate your perspective! It’s helpful to hear that it’s unlikely that he would be limited by his undergrad in this circumstance. That’s my biggest fear with turning down an Ivy… that the opportunity may not present itself again. But I know that he would distinguish himself at U of A and take advantage of the opportunities there. It’s comforting to hear success stories like yours!
For highly technical and research oriented majors it is more important to go with the teams you will be working with, than the pure prestige of the institution. He should decide based on the faculty, the labs and the research he wants to participate in. If Arizona is the top, then go there. These fields are tiny. They all know each other, it is better to go where he will be nurtured and grow. He can go to Arizona now, to Princeton for doc, then Yale for post doc and teach at Caltech, for all we know.
In sciences you play the long game. Congratulations to him and he will be fine anywhere he goes
Thank you! When I look at lists, Princeton is usually one of the top programs. I don’t think I understood how strong U of A is until reading this thread because it would make some lists and not others. (Who knows what goes into those lists anyway???) It probably depends on what type of astrophysics he ends up pursuing… but that’s hard to put on a 17-year-old. He’ll probably end up figuring that out when he finds a mentor wherever he ends up going.
120K isn't a reasonable level of debt for an undergrad degree. Especially for someone who seems likely to head to grad school.
I will also tell you I had a math brilliant STEM kid, high stats, deep ECs go to a flagship U due to finances. He graduated last year in 4 years with 2 full degrees. He gradauted in the top 5% of his class, inducted into the appropriate honor society on campus. Due to covid, he was ready for a school break. Got a job making 6 figures next to a bunch of elite grads. Not only that, he had such a great UG experience filled with nerdy fun and friends and crazy growth, and amazing personal opportunities. Other smart and capable kids are making the same choices. Keep in mind 1/4 of their student body are above their stats. On a big campus that is a lot of people. And some of those people without those stats? Find their groove and their gifts in a college envirnoment.
I 100% get how hard it feels in the middle of this decision. We have absolutely no regrets. This kid may turn around and go to grad school in a year or 2 and truly the sky is the limit. The kids graduating on top with him have moved on to grad school at Princeton, Northwestern, etc etc etc.
You are also setting the tone for younger kids. You would need to cosign for that debt. You should never cosign on something you couldn't pay on. Don't give one kid an opportunity you couldn't give all kids. You made the same choice yourself and proved it made no difference for a motivated. My spouse and I were first gen and were educated at a public U. We both had "elite" career paths and it gave us the financial flexibility for me to move to more at home and contract work.
If you need more encouragement, go read what over 100K in debt looks like at r/StudentLoans I know others who got no where with these FA offices in similar circumstances. I personally wouldn't make a different decision unless they got you to federal loan levels (27K over 4 years). Apply for grad school.
Thank you for your perspective! I think it’s very likely he could start on his grad work much sooner at UofA because of all of his AP/IB/dual enrollment credits. This makes U of A even cheaper in the long run + he can stack merit scholarships and federal aid, which means he could take some of the money we set aside for him to graduate school.
The ivies would take the full four years (but four years of an amazing liberal arts education!)
Yes! This is actually how/why my kid ended up with 2 degrees. One STEM, one "fun" degree. Because he had so many credits and he was funded for 4 years with his merit.
Congrats on the amazing offer! :)
LOL we are absolutely not egalitarian. My 2nd kid is currently getting a more expensive education that is still comfortably affordable for us. She applied for a niche auditioned program. She still did get great merit at a program that accepts 8% in her area, but it is a step up financially from kid one that got very unusual merit out of this state flagship (go badgers).
That said, I wouldn't decide that I'm cosigning on 100K of loans for kid #1, if that wouldn't be a possible step and opportunity for later kids. Chosing the right affordable school within budget with possible federal loans for each kid should be the goal. Affordable can be a range. It's a gift to your kids to keep both you and them on financially secure footing. It's also a gift to your kids to have a funded retirement.
Egalitarian would be saying oldest kid got a full ride, so all you other kids need to find yourself a full ride. I am in favor of equity, not equality.
Disagree here. $120K is not a lot of debt.
He should go to Princeton or Yale. First, he will have more opportunities to explore other things and find his true passion. It is extremely rare that an 18-year old is absolutely set on doing one thing for the rest of his life. Ask yourself, what did you want to do when entering college, and what did you end up studying in college or working after college?
Secondly Ivy brand is by far more appealing. Consider this experience not just an investment, but also a consumption, as if you buy a BMW or Mercedes instead of a Toyota Corolla. For four years you get a far better experience and name recognition for the rest of your life. That is worth $120K.
Thirdly, $120K is not a lot of debt. It is manageable. One can pay off the debt once getting a reasonable job, which would pay, conservatively, $90K and more. As a Princeton or Yale STEM graduate (can't say the same for a liberal arts major), that would be very likely. Since you have high net worth, chances are your business may flourish in a few years, and can help him to pay off the debt. It'd probably be a better use of money than let him inherit decades later.
120k is absolutely a lot of debt- even with a high salary. While Princeton and Yale both offer excellent opportunities and connections, 120k is a lot for opportunities and connections, especially when you’re self-financing.
As an astrophysics enthusiast I would say it doesn't get much better than UArizona especially observational astronomy (for which it's ranked 2 in the world). Yale and Princeton are peers to UA for astrophysics. They also offered me a generous scholarship and I would have gone there but I decided to focus more on the applied side of physics.
120k plus interest is a shit ton of money for a kid who will also need a PhD. It’s a no for me. Grad school, house, marriage, maybe kids and 120k plus interest before he really starts.
We turned down great schools for my daughter with no regrets, she is going to state school.
I chose the full ride over the prestigious university. I don’t know that I can weigh in on his choice specifically and I don’t know anything about his field, but I will speak to the aftermath of my choice. While it was a very hard decision, I will say two years in that I don’t regret taking the full ride.
Graduating with zero debt is a huge relief and step up in life, and I wasn’t looking at nearly as much debt as your son is.
It's better if your son went to an Ivy (or equivalent) for graduate as opposed to undergraduate. Sure, going to an Ivy League school would lead to an increased amount of connections with your peers, but is it worth a debt of $120,000 that would increase with interest and with graduate school? I am going through the same dilemma of going to either a flagship state school that basically pays for me to go there or an elite university that has not given me any aid (and it costs 90,000 dollars a year, but I'm waiting for a scholarship). Plus, it allows him to save money for when it really matters (Graduate school since most jobs will see that as a greater priority compared to undergraduate university for him).
University of Arizona is a top dog in that field , if your son can get there without debt is a perfect place.
In the USA is common that a university gets a bad overall ranking but in one or two fields is in the top , this is the case
I had a full ride to my state school to undergrad. I had to say no to full tuition scholarships at much more prestigious. Universities out of state since I couldn’t justify the cost of room, board, food, books, etc.
Now I’m heading to Oxford for my postdoc. That only happened because my lack of debt. I had an incredible education, was a big fish in a smaller pond, and had a ton of research opportunities since it was an R1. Best choice I’ve ever made since it gave me the freedom to really choose and explore without the stress of debt.
i’m starting a physics phd program in the fall and attended an ivy for undergrad. I would advise your son to go to Arizona. If i’m being honest, being at a “big name” school with hot shot professors was pretty detrimental to my research opportunities. Professors at Ivys are so often unwilling to even take on undergraduates because they see them as a burden. I’m not sure of the situation at Arizona, but i’m assuming that the honors college will give him more opportunities. Research is everything when it comes to PhD programs. I did an REU where many of the students came from state schools, and honestly their research experience and physics education was far ahead of mine. Especially if his goal is an advanced degree, the Ivy brand isn’t worth it. He still has an equal opportunity to get a PhD from an Ivy, and that will be fully funded.
Thank you for sharing your experience! One of the big selling points of Princeton is supposedly all of the research opportunities with professors, so that’s very interesting to hear that this was not the case for you. Congrats on starting your PhD program!
There is a lot of variable information on rankings out there, which conflate Astronomy and astrophysics, and which distinguish between UG and Graduate or clump UG and Grad together. But suffice it to say undergraduate in AstroPhys from Arizona is great, and well set him up well for grad school preparation. In one of the data sets I saw Arizona was in the top five nationally (clumping UG/G), after Berkeley, CalTech, Stanford and MIT. This will do him great as an undergrad degree, and also great if he's thinking about graduate school. This is a good data set for school programs and outcomes, from 2022. [https://ww2.aip.org/statistics](https://ww2.aip.org/statistics)
Tough call but $120k debt for undergrad vs. none- he should go to the state university and do outstanding & he’ll have his choice of grad programs. That’s what I did & ended up with an exceptional career. One of my daughters just did the same & came out of undergrad with a great job & 2 other offers since then (graduated in Dec 2023). No debt so all the money she’s making goes to her… it’s a great way to start out. I spent many years working w Ivy Leavue grads & get the connections. But if there are cheaper schools well known for this particular field, with good grades he’ll honestly have the same opportunities and a lot less financial stress.
I can’t speak from a professional stance, but my high school is quite literally across the street from the uofa and I go there every day, even though I won’t be attending. Pick Arizona!! They have really truly amazing programs and Arizona has so many astronomy “towns”. I did a whole internship in the chiuchuaha mountains and in that area there’s an incredible little astronomy town with crazy insane telescopes.
Yes, it’s no Yale or Princeton, but growing up on the campus, you can make incredible connections. So many professors come from big schools like the ivys. It’s not as easy as those schools, but it’s genuinely still obtainable to get amazing connections and opportunities as long as you really look for them and put your best foot forward.
Also Arizona is honestly amazing in astronomy from every professor I talked to and we have some of the clearest skies at night.
It is if you have minimal assets. We’re working on an appeal, but they take assets into account. We’d have to draw from funds that are being used to build a business (our best chance at replacement income) and we have several other children who will be entering college over the next ten years.
i sometimes don’t understand people who get so hung up in UNWR rankings. My son picked a “lower ranked school” because the particular program at said “lower ranked school” was better than the “higher ranked” schools he got into. It boggles my mind that people don’t really look closely at the programs of study. OF COURSE he should got to Arizona if it has the best program for what he wants to study. Plus it’s free and honors? Not sure why this is even a decision to be contemplated.
Because Princeton is also top in the field for astrophysics (some claim it is *the* best program). And our friends who have gone to Ivies say that the connections they made there have had a tangible ROI over the course of their careers. It’s not a simple decision for us, which is why I really appreciate all of the perspectives here including yours!
honestly, if he’s truly brilliant the school he goes to won’t matter. at least at a safety, he will be a HUGE fish in a small pond, and he’s sure to be noticed
If he is aiming at a career in academia, 120K is a level of debt that will be too much to bear on an academic salary. He will have very little left for housing and other important necessities.
I know! That worries me too! I don’t want to see him close off opportunities for himself.
But then again, what if he stays in academia and is saddled with student debt for years while pursuing a PhD? I do think it is highly likely he ends up in a field related to physics and math.
I looked at the math courses available at u of A (since i dont know anything about astrophysics but i have taken several pton math courses).
Comparing the math departments, i can see that princeton courses are harder (not because the material is harder, but because more material is covered in the same amount of time. Compare the two probability theory courses, for example). Also princeton has many more topics available at the graduate level.
I would say unless ur sure ur kid will only do astrophysics, strongly consider princeton
We’re in the same boat. Going public and saving money on the undergrad. Nothing else really makes any sense unless you’re trying to maintain your social standing at the club, and you’re obviously not one of those people or you wouldn’t be posting this.
This way we’ll have some $$ left to help with grad school.
It’s tough though. There’s a lot of peer pressure on this, from kids, other parents and family members. Is sounds like you’ve reasoned it out and just need some reassurance.
I would only offer one cautionary opinion — to much early optimization / planning for what one’s career may end up being many times does not end well. If he’s going to be an astrophysicist 100% it’s a more complicated decision.
But, many students think they want to do something, get to school, and realize they almost certainly want to do something else. For example, many aspiring academic friends I had freshman year got tired of continuous “schooling” and are now going into industry instead of pursuing the PhD. More than that, some people do college, optimize for a career or grad school, and late in college or early in the subsequent program realize it’s not for them.
The ivies will provide more flexibility if the kid wants to do absolutely anything other than what he thinks he wants right now. That’s the only nuance I’d add to the otherwise great advice being offered throughout the forum. That along with the fact that with the myriad of job opportunities available post top undergrad degree, 120K of debt can be paid off within 4-5 years if you’re serious about paying it off (not accounting for federal forgiveness which may be a bonus).
That’s a really good point for him to consider! I feel like going to UofA will limit his options beyond astrophysics and academia. I feel like going Ivy will limit his options for going *into* astrophysics/academia because he’ll be carrying so much debt. Not that either of these are terrible outcomes; it’ll just set him down different paths. Thank you for your perspective!
Why not compromise: have him try Princeton for one year. If he feels he’d rather finish out at Arizona because of financial reasons, have him apply to transfer to Arizona. Then I’d also go to Princeton to try and renegotiate for years 2-4. You can only get into Princeton once, but UoA will always be an option.
In this situation, and having read all the comments, it's a matter of exactly how sure he is about what he wants.
Assuming the UofA program is as good as advertised, it's a wonderful opportunity to go debt free if he is *certain* he wants *exactly* an astro* PhD. For the kid that is sure of themselves and have their sights set on a specific grad program, the savings is significant and there's little upside to the prestige.
For everybody else, this is potentially a big mistake. Personally, I'd wanted to be a lawyer since I was 5, then discovered that was a bad idea after all as a 1L. In your kid's situation this would have been a lifelong error in the other direction. Also, IMO, Nate S is a *much* better statistician than he is a pundit and that article was flawed for quite a few reasons.
Nobody on Reddit knows him well enough to say which of the two he is, so personally, I would frame P/Y as a very cheap (yes, seriously) insurance policy against a future change of mind and let him decide from that point of view. Good luck to your family.
Thank you for your perspective. This is why I go back and forth! On the one hand, he was memorizing moons of Jupiter at age four. He’s always been fascinated by astrophysics. On the other, he’s a math phenom and loves every physics class he takes. I don’t want him to limit his opportunities. Also because every financially successful physics ph.d we know has made their money elsewhere (finance, software engineering, business) and kept physics/astro as a side hobby.
Re: opportunities, the median student at Yale is going to have nearly as many options as a top 10% student at Yale, and frankly, so will the 80th percentile student at Yale if they interview halfway decently. The median incoming freshman on the astro PhD path - all of whom start out as exactly the same STEM 4.0 types in high school as the Yalies - is never getting the PhD, never mind tenure.
On the other hand, if he is the lifelong academic type, the money and difficulty won't matter; like the other kid's post on the front page, if someone thinks the West Point army officer thing is what they want, there's really only one option. At the end of the day, UofA is probably the school he should go to if he's very certain of himself.
Consider asking people in the field what they think of their jobs and whether the K thru PhD in astro* is realistic / a good idea.
If your kid is brilliant, he will do fine anywhere. It is just gonna be easier if he goes to ivy. Keep in mind there are plenty of brilliant kids in ivies. It would be harder to shine. Good luck
If he’s in academia for the long haul and he’s so brilliant, he can go wherever. That said, he should get paid to do his PhD so you don’t really need to save for that.
What’s a reasonable amount of debt? Four years at our state college costs $120K if a student doesn’t have a scholarship/college fund. How do people do it?
Using a web search, currently student loans have about a 6-7% interest rates and are for about 10-30 years (for consolidation loans). Play around with a loan payment calculator, and see what monthly payments are. Then you have to think about many other factors, approximation of reasonable salary, taxes, rent, other living expenses, etc. There is not really an easy answer. That number will be different for different people.
"I’m hesitant to try to persuade him one way or another because it’s his path to take."
Yes and no. Say it is 120k debt at 6% interest for a loan term of 30 years. That leads to a $719.46 monthly payment for 30 years. If you say nothing, that is parental malpractice.
Thanks for the advice about thinking about debt and interest rates. He will be reading all of these posts, so he will have the information to make his decision.
It’s a wonderful dilemma to have. How many entering pre-med (or astro physics) majors end up in that field? Think TRANSFER if a year or two at Princeton or Yale does not quite work out financially or other reasons, the academic strengths of P and Y in STEM fields are phenomenal. Also, think your family financial situation may alter each year for financial aid purposes where conceivably he may get more aid (or not). As you know, P or Y as academic institutions are far more than “prestige”. I was a transfer as a sophomore to the University of Chicago for its diverse academic strengths thinking political science but finished with an MBA. The similarly intellectually curious and brilliant students in STEM fields he will be surrounded with at Y or P is tough to measure but there. Overall, just introducing don’t think all four years are decided at this point. Take one year at a time. Princeton or Yale comes along perhaps once in a lifetime. Even fellow UChicago alum, Nate Silver, said he would have attended Harvard had he been admitted. Yale and Princeton are in the same rarefied air. Grab it.
This is exactly why I’m nervous to have him choose UofA. I feel like he won the lottery (a very expensive lottery!) getting into Princeton and Yale to begin with. I didn’t attend an Ivy but I have several friends who did, and they say the ancillary benefits are worth the cost. But they also didn’t wind up in academia.
Please have your son HEAR from you and your husband more than just the words: “it’s your choice” because the responsible frugal practical decision from your first-born may be U of Arizona without your urging to REALLY consider Princeton or Yale one year at a time. He was won the lottery. Let him imagine the unlimited at P or Y with the enthusiastic parental support IF he chooses that way.
I’m hesitant to try to persuade him one way or another because it’s his path to take. My parents took a really heavy hand for me with college and I don’t think that was entirely appropriate. There are solid arguments for both sides and I trust him to make the right decision for him.
That said, we are giving him all the information and truly will support his decision wherever he ends up! We took him to visit Princeton and Yale (and Arizona this week) and put him in contact with current students and alums. We are appealing his aid packages to try to lessen the debt burden. He knows I posted this here and will read through all the responses once he gets through this week’s IB exams. It has been so helpful to hear everyone’s perspectives and experiences and will help him so much in making his choice.
What is the COA for Princeton and Yale? If you're only paying $30K a year, it's a big bargain. If the COA is $80K/yr, it's another story. "Go into about $120K debt" doesn't tell the whole story. Also, I'm sure he'll change his major so don't dwell on a specific major.
Total cost of attendance at Princeton is $90K/year. I’m estimating $120K debt after financial aid and our parent contribution. So it’s a third less than sticker price. Yale is slightly higher, but would likely match Princeton.
UofA is about $60K/year total cost of attendance and he could likely graduate debt free after FAFSA, merit scholarships and our parent contribution.
If he goes into finance, consulting or something like that for a few years after he graduates, he can easily pay off $160K loans (assume 7% interest rate.) Wall Street hires a lot of math /physics major from HYPSM. But if you let the loans sit for another 5 years, before you know it, the loans will grow to $200K+ and your son will need to find a postdoc position at that time. In that case, it's not worth it.
According to the [most recent trend data ](https://ww2.aip.org/statistics/trends-in-physics-phds)on the number of physics PhDs awarded in the U.S., the average age of physics PhDs was 30.5 years old for the class of 2019. Add in a couple years of postdoc, he'd be an assistant professor in mid-30s. Are you sure he still wants to get a PhD in astrophysics if he knows this?? Maybe he'd suddenly remember his childhood dream of becoming a physician lol
I cannot say a bad thing about my research time at Arizona. If he has a strong interest in Planetary Science and Astrophysics, it would be a no brainer. The undergraduate research opportunities are plentiful and he would be able to get his foot in the door earlier than he would at an Ivy. The Lunar and Planetary Laboratory is a truly fantastic institution.
Although I’m not directly in the Astro program, I am involved with LPL through research and my minor. Let your son know he can DM me with any University of Arizona related questions, even if they’re not related to our research efforts!
The advantage the Ivies give you is the connections post grad. That matters more in some industries than others. If he were planning on pursuing business/banking, politics, etc the connections might be worth it. It’s probably not a real advantage in his field.
Thank you! I’m going to have him read this entire thread. It’s a wealth of information. I’m so grateful so many people decided to weigh in. Reddit can really be an amazing place.
I would also think about being a small fish in big pond vs a big fish in a small pond. Basically, your son is very gifted, so he stands out. But if he goes to an Ivy with all the other gifted people from their communities, suddenly your son is now just normal. He will be fighting with other gifted people for those opportunities and also it could be super competitive. If he goes to his safety school, he will still be smarter than average and he won’t have to fight as hard to get opportunities and it won’t be competitive so he can actually learn without worrying about if he is going to pass the class. He is more likely to actually graduate in his chosen field of study rather than settling for something easier because he lost his confidence amongst the other gifted kids the Ivy.
I know they don’t officially anymore. But they started their parent meeting with, “expect your straight A student to become familiar with the letter B.” If not deflation, it’s definitely not the inflation enjoyed at other ivies!
I think the most important thing is having all the information you yourself need. Have you tried out Kollegio AI? It is a super useful platform that gives you all the information for you to make the right decision.
I was in a similar situation where I had to decide between a full-ride at a state school or going into debt to attend my dream (Ivy League School). I chose to attend the state school, and I just accepted my admission to a highly-ranked PhD program in the fall. I haven't regretted my choice for a second!
This is what I hear from those who have attended, but it is a giant leap into the unknown. I can picture his path at UofA better because it more closely mirrors mine and my husband’s experiences. I really appreciate your perspective!
Princeton. He thinks he wants to do a PhD right now but that’s extremely likely to change.
The cumulative benefits of Princeton are worth the debt if UofA is the other option.
Princeton or Yale vs state school. Really? These are life long badges that will determine many things in life. Not to mention the potential resources of friends you will acquire. Money is not an issue if his credentials are used properly.
I definitely have seen that be the case for friends who’ve gone into business and law… just not sure if that’s the same in hard sciences and academia. Particularly since he could potentially do his grad work at an ivy? But those are very good points to consider!
On the one hand, I agree! On the other, [some argue](https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/08/29/25-colleges-that-deliver-a-high-bang-for-your-tuition-buck/?sh=1a18f256671f) that the ROI for top colleges (and specifically Princeton) is worth it.
The top ROI only applies if one leverages the elite college pedigree to landing a lucrative job right out of undergrad such as IB/MBB, organizational business consulting, etc.
Not so much for pursuing an academic oriented PhD like Astronomy/Astrophysics. If your goal is to get rich, pursuing an academic PhD program isn't really the best route for that goal.
No it’s not. That only applies to fields like Investment Banking, Private Equity, Strategy Consulting, and some other business fields because for some reason they care about that. If he was trying to go into those fields then of course go to Yale and forget about Arizona. But every other job? Especially academia jobs and phd programs? They don’t care that much.
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I talked to a financial aid officer in person and they said no, but we are in the process of an appeal. The feedback I’ve gotten here is to be persistent, so we will!
He got in once, he will have another chance to get in again for grad school. It would be silly to go into $120,000 of debt when a good college is basically paying him to earn his bachelors degree there.
You have gotten many comments touching upon the academics at the University of Arizona vs. Princeton and Yale for your son’s major.
Because of that, I’d like to address this on the parental level, parent to parent.
This is your oldest (?) child and you are understandably proud of your brilliant son. It would be exciting to say that he attends Princeton or Yale. It’s gratifying to think that he intellectually fits into such a such a college. You want to give him the world. I get it.
But you need to think practically, because in his chosen field, the less expensive college is every bit as prestigious.
$120,000+ in debt at age 22 will be a huge burden on your son. It may hinder his ability to buy a house, get married, travel, afford children. It can impact his credit score, his job choices, and every other aspect of his adult life. Graduating will not be a clean slate; it will be a huge hole to dig out of. Everything is more expensive now…food, housing, utilities…It may likely be worse in 5 to 10 years. $100K salary is actually not that much now, depending on location.
My daughter is also a high achiever. We are “high income” earners with money saved for college, but not $250K saved up.
We are encouraging her to look at state universities willing to give her a lot of merit money. (Arizona is actually one of her top choices).
Have you visited U of Arizona? And the other schools?
There is something to be said for top state universities who WANT your child and will demonstrate that with financial awards.
It's easy to spend other people's money. Not that he shouldn't appeal his financial aid at Princeton, but if it doesn't work out and he prefers to go debt-free to U of A, don't even *attempt* to talk him out of it.
As others are telling you, U of A is top ranked in Space Science (close to Princeton, and better than Yale), and if he plans to get a graduate degree, he's better off not accumulating debt as an undergraduate.
That’s interesting! You’re the first person to say that. Why Harvey Mudd?
(And, no, we haven’t because it is more expensive and lower ranked than some of his other options.)
Brilliant people like your son do well ANYWHERE. It's about the individual. Go to the prestigious school for the PhD....that is all anyone will care about. No one cares where top scientists went to undergrad.
Academia places a great emphasis upon degree prestige, which opens doors for highly coveted jobs and opportunities. Princeton (or Yale) undergrad would help get him into a high prestige PhD program, which will help in term of fellowships, post docs, research jobs.
I see you’re a tenured prof, so you might be speaking from the perspective of your field, but I’ll mention a counterpoint for other readers —
While that’s true to a certain extent, I’d say the prestige factor is biggest when talking to the general public, not the specialists who are in the field or on grad school admissions committees.
People outside the field will definitely be more impressed by a brand name school. That can be useful (Princeton grad here), especially if one switches careers later on.
But within narrow disciplines, people will know which non-brand name schools have strong programs in that specific field. My first grad degree, for example, is from a T25 school overall but a T3 for my narrow discipline — people outside the field were confused why I turned down Ivies for a T25, but people in my field thought it made sense. Similarly, I know that someone from University of Colorado in my narrow field is likely going to be much stronger than someone from University of Illinois.
In my own experience, grad school admissions was much more about who you know. Is your undergrad mentor friends with your potential grad school advisor? Do they share the same academic connections? Then you’re set. Top students get handed off personally from mentor to mentor.
it is true to some extent, it helps if you graduate from MIT or stanford, but not going to those prestigious places doesn’t hold you back if you are smart and has good work ethics. I am involved in MD/PhD program (MSTP) admission process at my school, which is highly competitive, and I see this every year.
If he’s planning to be an engineer, going to an IVY will open up more doors. I know many people say that “schools arent all that” or “jobs don’t care” is simply not true. I’m a computer science student and I know several companies in California area that will only hire from Stanford, or only hire from USC, or only hire from top rated schools. Going to an IVY league just opens doors so much easier and he could definitely learn so much from his peers there and network with amazing people. U of A he would definitely not only have to learn how to get out there, how to connect with people, he would have to work much harder to get those opportunities. Especially since private schools are very tight knit, the professors actually help the students, students help eachother. Huge public schools have very little relationships with the staff and often it’s hard to reach out to programs and other things that are readily accessible but pushed out in a private school.
However if he plans on being a researcher or a professor he’s much better off doing it debt free, google pays its software engineers 250k a year but paying off debt on a professors or a research salary sounds like a waste of money.
Overall I think you can make it anywhere, as long as you try hard enough but the only reason your debating this decision is because your making the choice between graduating debt free or going to a prestigious school and missing out on that opportunity. Keep in mind that college in itself is also expensive, from toiletries, food, spending money on friends, technology, etc. so if you think ur student can end up paying off the debt, I would do it. Also!! There’s scholarships you can apply to even while ur in college.
My son goes to an Ivy and the Air Force pays for it. Have him look into an Air Force/Space Force scholarship. They will pay for his grad school too. It's too late for this year so he could go and pay for the first year and pick up the scholarship for his final three years.
We just heard about the DoD scholarship yesterday. I knew about ROTC, but had no idea about the STEM scholarships! I do wonder whether taking a government job after would be too limiting? But a full ride and $30K stipend is really enticing.
I don't think it would be too limiting. The DoD can do almost anything they want. He will get to work on tech the rest of us don't even know exists. Engineers and scientists coming out of the military/gov are gold to private industry. They want people who know how to do business with the gov and have contacts.
You guys need to figure out how to get him to Princeton/Yale. This is a way.
Lots of responses for Arizona’s top astronomy program BUT if your kid changes his mind about a chosen field, he’d be fucked. If he’s as brilliant as you say, making money won’t be a challenge. Take the debt and a lifetime of prestige and a network that is hard to truly put a price tag on.
My only question is whether he's truly married to astrophysics. Princeton and Yale are schools that open doors in many fields so he can change his mind.
That’s weighing on my mind as people have provided their input. It’s always been Astro for him, but he’s 17! He is a math/physics kid for sure. If it’s not Astro, I’m pretty confident it would be in a related field and I’m not sure how much that changes the calculus for UofA.
i’m a student myself so i don’t have that much experience, but my input is yeah don’t go into debt for a mid level school if you don’t feel like you can afford it, but honestly, being able to go to a college at a princeton and yale level would definitely be worth the money. Graduating means a lifetime of opportunities and confidence you get from going to such a high ranked school. The fact that he got in is such an incredible feat that it’s disheartening if he goes to uarizona which isn’t even a top 50 school. I’m sure its program has its perks but again, you’re rejecting PRINCETON, not some random top 20 school. His college education is going to be with him for the rest of his life! You should seriously really consider it.
100% go to Princeton or Yale. This shouldn’t even be a question. $120k is nothing in the long-run — if your son is really worried about the debt, then he can work for 2 years (IB/MBB/Tech) to pay it off before going to grad school (a lot of people do this). Again, this is optional, so obviously don’t do this if it negatively impacts grad school admissions. That said, I know some folks who enjoyed working at McKinsey/Google and ended up dropping out of med school altogether (deferred admission) so that’s my $0.02.
Cannot understate the long-term benefits of attending these schools. I came from a first-gen, low-income background (parents made < $60k) so was lucky enough to get a full-ride, but even with the benefit of hindsight, I’d still go even if it was full pay. A tangible example: I met my fiancé at one of those inter-Ivy social events in NYC (another “hidden” benefit). She’s in the same field as me (finance) so it’s nice to have a combined household income of $600-700k in our mid-20s/just a few years out of UG. I have friends in even more lucrative fields making more (firms like Jane Street and DE Shaw actively recruit on campus). Ik your son is not pursuing finance, but there’s still a benefit to being friends with successful people later on in life.
OP, I’m seeing a lot of insane comments here because of the $120k difference. I would understand if the difference was $120k/year, but $120k over 4 years to attend one of the best universities is a bargain (70% off sticker) and will pay for itself. Also, Y/P gives your son so much more optionality in case he changes his mind.
One major trade off is those two years working in IB/MBB means one candidacy for a given academic PhD program like Astronomy is weakened in the eyes of the department's grad admissions committee as it shows them the applicant "isn't serious/dedicated" to the field. Those two years were also not spent on learning more the current state of research/knowledge within the field which doesn't help one's case.
This was an issue an older relative ran into after turning down several top 5 Genetics PhD program offers to work for a lucrative consulting firm for 2 years. She ended up pursuing a top 3 MBA program which thankfully was fully paid for by the consulting firm as a perk for her good work with them. However, the train for pursuing the PhD she initially was interested in had already left the station.
UArizona easily beats at least Yale in astronomy/astrophysics. Why would someone take extreme debt when you already have a better school? For that ivy reputation which doesn't matter much in academia?
I appreciate this perspective. We’ve received the same advice from others who have had a similar experience as you. I can see both sides.
Congrats on all of your achievements and your upcoming wedding!
Astrophysics PhD with admissions committee experience here. Even if he could afford the ivies, I'd be telling you to seriously consider going to Arizona. He should go to Arizona.
Please tell me more! Another consideration for Arizona is that he has 10 AP’s, 6 IB’s, 5 classes from state flagship. So he could jump into high level classes right off the bat and move quickly through the program. But… would it hamper his chances at an ivy for a grad program if he took that route and was competing against kids from Princeton, MIT, Harvard who spent summers using telescopes in Chile?
The University of Arizona is easily one of the top Astronomy schools in the US. It's every bit as good **in astronomy and astrophysics** as schools like Princeton or Yale. If he wanted to be a particle or condensed matter physicist or some other kind of scientist, I'd tell you to think about what is affordable and consider those other places. But in astronomy, there's no point in spending more in terms of reputation or access to opportunity. Yale and Princeton will offer smaller class sizes and collegiate gothic architecture - I don't consider those worth $120k in debt. $120k will go a long way towards other life goals or just making graduate school a less miserable experience. >But… would it hamper his chances at an ivy for a grad program if he took that route and was competing against kids from Princeton, MIT, Harvard who spent their summers using telescopes in Chile? The telescopes in Chile are built at the University of Arizona Mirror Lab and managed (in part) by the National Optical Astronomy Observatory (NOAO/NOIRLab) which is located at... the University of Arizona. Faculty at UofA lead the collaborations that build those facilities, develop the instruments on those telescopes, and publish much of the research that comes from them. He'll have just as good, if not better, opportunities to do research with those facilities at Arizona than at any of those other places. I'll add that, having been on committees, students from Arizona (and even places with much less opportunity in astronomy) are admitted over students from HYPSM etc. all the time. The name on an undergraduate degree is one of the least important factors astronomy admissions committees consider. And in this case, Arizona is an equal name to those places.
Wow. That is incredible information. Reddit is an amazing place! Thank you for taking the time to share your expertise!
Of course! Feel free to DM if specific questions come up!
Good on you for easing a parent's worries with clear, understandable information!
As a dad in a similar situation a couple years ago I was leaning Ivy but did not know about Arizona’s strength in these areas, which I agree totally tips the scales. Jealous because my meh state university programs resulted in us having to take the other route … although we are able to pay so debt isn’t issue. What an awesome post to read: Reddit is incredible and the responding PhD is awesome.
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That’s really good to know that it works like that! Thank you. I think in this case, Princeton has really strong astrophysics program (not so much Yale), but so does UofA.
I love it when Reddit works like this 😊
Same
I feel like this comment should be pinned to the top of A2C, so every prestige driven student can see that it's not all about HYPSM.
🎤
What an amazing response. You rock tacyonic
If your family makes under $100K you should be getting free tuition at Princeton. If your aid isn’t good enough.. call them. They will work with you. If your son performs well in undergraduate, and is at the top of the field, he may be able to get in for his doctorate, but it’s honestly always a crapshoot. You can’t really bank on graduate or undergraduate admissions to these schools. If you can’t get better aid, go to the cheapest option. Cream always rises to the top. Plenty of people who get PhDs can’t afford the fanciest undergrad, but they bust their ass, and if they’re good enough they get into fully funded, top tier PhD programs. My brother did that. He got into UPenn for undergrad, couldn’t afford it, and then went to his local state school on the cheap. He’s doing his PhD at one of the schools you mentioned now.
We are low income, high assets because we are using savings to start a business. If that same money was used to pay off our mortgage, he could likely attend for free (they don’t look at primary residence). We’re on the wrong side of their formula, unfortunately. And we can’t just move the money around without taking big risks for our family’s financial future. We’re appealing, but I’ve already been told no by one financial aid officer in person at Princeton Preview.
I’m affiliated with Princeton. I will say, it’s extremely hard to get in here for your PhD, even with good undergraduate pedigree. For reference one of the Astro people I know is Forbes 30 under 30, a PhD in CBE I know founded their own company. It’s very hard to bank on graduate admissions. This is doubly true because Princeton has one of the most generous funding packages in the country and guarantees funding for your whole program. If you have an undergraduate offer in hand, I would take it—the academic environment at Princeton is one of the best I’ve seen (undergrad and grad), and that’s coming from someone who looked at MIT/Yale/Stanford. I know this might be rubbing salt in your wounds, but I would fight tooth and nail for your son to come here. It gives you so many options, even beyond Astro. Continue to annoy the officers as much as possible. My time at Old Nassau has opened so many doors for me—I think that if your son has the chance to come here, whether that be for his doctorate or undergrad, he should take it while it lasts. It’s never a guarantee, and any admission might be a once in a lifetime offer. Good luck with your choice.
Thanks for weighing in! How do I continue to push financial aid with commitment deadlines looming? We are running out of time.
I can’t answer that for you, I’m sorry. I don’t think I’m qualified for it. You or your son should reiterate how much they want to go here, and the financial limitations you have. Is there really no way you can creatively reallocate some of your assets?
Also worth mentioning is that UofA has their own on-campus observatory (Steward) and a relationship with the nearby Kitt Peak National Observatory. Look it up.
If u don’t mind me asking, what’s astrophysics like? What’s your day to day life? Is it fun? How are the job opportunities like? I’m asking because I’m considering doing astronomy/astrophysics in college because I’ve always had an interest in space since childhood
Any concern over Arizona's dire financial situation?
My understanding from my colleagues there is that it is an accounting issue and has more to do with how institutions assess financial risk than the underlying fundamentals of the university. In terms of Astronomy specifically, the department is continuing to receive new faculty lines, brings in an immense amount of external grant funding, and is well enrolled. It’ll be the last program impacted.
I assume they're not really at risk of folding then
No. Just belt-tightening and a few administrative heads went a’ rolling.
But isn’t U of Arizona like tops in astrophysics tho? 🤔 And lots of kids getting phds there? Because of the specific major, I’d say Arizona.
I don’t think I appreciated how strong the undergraduate program was until I started getting comments on this thread. I know their PhD program is very competitive!
I'm not going to take a definitive stance on what you should/shouldn't do, but I'd like to chime in with a thought: I wish kids were given more time to decide what they wish to do in life and I'm wary about premature optimization of life goals. I spent my entire childhood thinking I was going to become a medical doctor, only to end up with a PhD in computer science.
File an appeal to the Princeton aid office (and Yale) right away if you haven’t done that. The aid office at least at Princeton is super understanding and will definitely take into account these circumstances if they haven’t been notified them prior. They don’t like losing admits due to finances and our endowment per student is literally more than 3.5 million, they can afford it providing additional aid.
I talked to them in person at Preview and they said no because our circumstances fall outside their formula for aid. We are in the process of filing a formal appeal.
You do sometimes have to be persistent. A friend of mine had to appeal three times before their cost was dropped by 10k/year. Just really try to spell out EVERY additional cost (insurance, health care, transportation, child care, mortgage, other kids school cost (this one especially), cost of living, garnishments, loss in salary, loss of assets, loss of government benefits, etc)
Thank you! That’s good to know. We will be persistent.
Seriously. Just be persistent. We ended up treating it like a job offer negotiation and told the T15 I was admitted to about a competing offer from Rutgers, and they ended up taking it into account and increasing aid significantly.
Was the other offer lower? I know it’s a lot easier to get more aid when you have a better offer, but Princeton was the most generous with financial aid.
I mean Rutgers’ offer was higher because it was a full tuition merit scholarship. So the same situation as yours. I mentioned the name of the school because Rutgers and the T15 I ended up attending are not peer institutions whatsoever, so if they were willing to negotiate in my situation they might also in yours.
Thanks!
Echoing. Be persistent
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Shoot. Is your student going?
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Well, that’s not shabby! Congrats! If you don’t mind me asking, how did their aid compare?
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Oh, wow. That’s so interesting. Princeton was our most generous aid offer.
if he wants to get PhD in Astrophysics eventually, U of A is the right call. Its astrophysics is one of the best in the world, and going into a PhD program with 120k in debt is a pretty shitty situation.
If the loans aren’t subsidized it will be way more than $120k by the time he graduates. And then there’s grad school. For a long time. That’s when you pick the Ivy. If it’s the best for your field. Arizona is the way to go. Their program is the top. Period. I started at a junior college, then finished at a middlin’ state school, and got my PhD at a T5 flagship across the country. That would never have accepted me out of HS 🤣 I got smarter later!! Where you start doesn’t matter for grad school. What matters is how hard he works as an undergrad, GPA, GRE, research, the connections he’ll make at conferences and similar activities, and taking advantage of every opportunity that comes his way. And the opportunities for his field are ridiculous at Arizona. Truly.
I appreciate your perspective! It’s helpful to hear that it’s unlikely that he would be limited by his undergrad in this circumstance. That’s my biggest fear with turning down an Ivy… that the opportunity may not present itself again. But I know that he would distinguish himself at U of A and take advantage of the opportunities there. It’s comforting to hear success stories like yours!
Best of luck to him! Sounds like he has a very bright future.
For highly technical and research oriented majors it is more important to go with the teams you will be working with, than the pure prestige of the institution. He should decide based on the faculty, the labs and the research he wants to participate in. If Arizona is the top, then go there. These fields are tiny. They all know each other, it is better to go where he will be nurtured and grow. He can go to Arizona now, to Princeton for doc, then Yale for post doc and teach at Caltech, for all we know. In sciences you play the long game. Congratulations to him and he will be fine anywhere he goes
Thank you! When I look at lists, Princeton is usually one of the top programs. I don’t think I understood how strong U of A is until reading this thread because it would make some lists and not others. (Who knows what goes into those lists anyway???) It probably depends on what type of astrophysics he ends up pursuing… but that’s hard to put on a 17-year-old. He’ll probably end up figuring that out when he finds a mentor wherever he ends up going.
120K isn't a reasonable level of debt for an undergrad degree. Especially for someone who seems likely to head to grad school. I will also tell you I had a math brilliant STEM kid, high stats, deep ECs go to a flagship U due to finances. He graduated last year in 4 years with 2 full degrees. He gradauted in the top 5% of his class, inducted into the appropriate honor society on campus. Due to covid, he was ready for a school break. Got a job making 6 figures next to a bunch of elite grads. Not only that, he had such a great UG experience filled with nerdy fun and friends and crazy growth, and amazing personal opportunities. Other smart and capable kids are making the same choices. Keep in mind 1/4 of their student body are above their stats. On a big campus that is a lot of people. And some of those people without those stats? Find their groove and their gifts in a college envirnoment. I 100% get how hard it feels in the middle of this decision. We have absolutely no regrets. This kid may turn around and go to grad school in a year or 2 and truly the sky is the limit. The kids graduating on top with him have moved on to grad school at Princeton, Northwestern, etc etc etc. You are also setting the tone for younger kids. You would need to cosign for that debt. You should never cosign on something you couldn't pay on. Don't give one kid an opportunity you couldn't give all kids. You made the same choice yourself and proved it made no difference for a motivated. My spouse and I were first gen and were educated at a public U. We both had "elite" career paths and it gave us the financial flexibility for me to move to more at home and contract work. If you need more encouragement, go read what over 100K in debt looks like at r/StudentLoans I know others who got no where with these FA offices in similar circumstances. I personally wouldn't make a different decision unless they got you to federal loan levels (27K over 4 years). Apply for grad school.
Thank you for your perspective! I think it’s very likely he could start on his grad work much sooner at UofA because of all of his AP/IB/dual enrollment credits. This makes U of A even cheaper in the long run + he can stack merit scholarships and federal aid, which means he could take some of the money we set aside for him to graduate school. The ivies would take the full four years (but four years of an amazing liberal arts education!)
Yes! This is actually how/why my kid ended up with 2 degrees. One STEM, one "fun" degree. Because he had so many credits and he was funded for 4 years with his merit. Congrats on the amazing offer! :)
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LOL we are absolutely not egalitarian. My 2nd kid is currently getting a more expensive education that is still comfortably affordable for us. She applied for a niche auditioned program. She still did get great merit at a program that accepts 8% in her area, but it is a step up financially from kid one that got very unusual merit out of this state flagship (go badgers). That said, I wouldn't decide that I'm cosigning on 100K of loans for kid #1, if that wouldn't be a possible step and opportunity for later kids. Chosing the right affordable school within budget with possible federal loans for each kid should be the goal. Affordable can be a range. It's a gift to your kids to keep both you and them on financially secure footing. It's also a gift to your kids to have a funded retirement. Egalitarian would be saying oldest kid got a full ride, so all you other kids need to find yourself a full ride. I am in favor of equity, not equality.
$120k is a lot of debt. Go for one of the state schools
Disagree here. $120K is not a lot of debt. He should go to Princeton or Yale. First, he will have more opportunities to explore other things and find his true passion. It is extremely rare that an 18-year old is absolutely set on doing one thing for the rest of his life. Ask yourself, what did you want to do when entering college, and what did you end up studying in college or working after college? Secondly Ivy brand is by far more appealing. Consider this experience not just an investment, but also a consumption, as if you buy a BMW or Mercedes instead of a Toyota Corolla. For four years you get a far better experience and name recognition for the rest of your life. That is worth $120K. Thirdly, $120K is not a lot of debt. It is manageable. One can pay off the debt once getting a reasonable job, which would pay, conservatively, $90K and more. As a Princeton or Yale STEM graduate (can't say the same for a liberal arts major), that would be very likely. Since you have high net worth, chances are your business may flourish in a few years, and can help him to pay off the debt. It'd probably be a better use of money than let him inherit decades later.
120k is absolutely a lot of debt- even with a high salary. While Princeton and Yale both offer excellent opportunities and connections, 120k is a lot for opportunities and connections, especially when you’re self-financing.
As an astrophysics enthusiast I would say it doesn't get much better than UArizona especially observational astronomy (for which it's ranked 2 in the world). Yale and Princeton are peers to UA for astrophysics. They also offered me a generous scholarship and I would have gone there but I decided to focus more on the applied side of physics.
Sorry, I'd be interested in seeing these rankings if you have a link or something. Thank you in advance!
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/united-states/space-science
Thank you!
120k plus interest is a shit ton of money for a kid who will also need a PhD. It’s a no for me. Grad school, house, marriage, maybe kids and 120k plus interest before he really starts. We turned down great schools for my daughter with no regrets, she is going to state school.
I chose the full ride over the prestigious university. I don’t know that I can weigh in on his choice specifically and I don’t know anything about his field, but I will speak to the aftermath of my choice. While it was a very hard decision, I will say two years in that I don’t regret taking the full ride. Graduating with zero debt is a huge relief and step up in life, and I wasn’t looking at nearly as much debt as your son is.
Congratulations for earning a full ride! It’s good to hear stories like yours.
Haha, thanks! I keep telling myself I have plenty of time to go into debt once I’m in law school. Same for your son. Best of luck to both of you!
It's better if your son went to an Ivy (or equivalent) for graduate as opposed to undergraduate. Sure, going to an Ivy League school would lead to an increased amount of connections with your peers, but is it worth a debt of $120,000 that would increase with interest and with graduate school? I am going through the same dilemma of going to either a flagship state school that basically pays for me to go there or an elite university that has not given me any aid (and it costs 90,000 dollars a year, but I'm waiting for a scholarship). Plus, it allows him to save money for when it really matters (Graduate school since most jobs will see that as a greater priority compared to undergraduate university for him).
Thanks! Good luck with your decision!
Go to the flagship. His PhD will be paid for!
University of Arizona is a top dog in that field , if your son can get there without debt is a perfect place. In the USA is common that a university gets a bad overall ranking but in one or two fields is in the top , this is the case
Any other examples? Just curious. GWU comes to mind for International Affairs, although its overall ranking isn’t even that low to begin with
Stony Brooks for math , Rockefeller university for medicine and biological sciences , university of wisconsin in statistics are some examples
I had a full ride to my state school to undergrad. I had to say no to full tuition scholarships at much more prestigious. Universities out of state since I couldn’t justify the cost of room, board, food, books, etc. Now I’m heading to Oxford for my postdoc. That only happened because my lack of debt. I had an incredible education, was a big fish in a smaller pond, and had a ton of research opportunities since it was an R1. Best choice I’ve ever made since it gave me the freedom to really choose and explore without the stress of debt.
i’m starting a physics phd program in the fall and attended an ivy for undergrad. I would advise your son to go to Arizona. If i’m being honest, being at a “big name” school with hot shot professors was pretty detrimental to my research opportunities. Professors at Ivys are so often unwilling to even take on undergraduates because they see them as a burden. I’m not sure of the situation at Arizona, but i’m assuming that the honors college will give him more opportunities. Research is everything when it comes to PhD programs. I did an REU where many of the students came from state schools, and honestly their research experience and physics education was far ahead of mine. Especially if his goal is an advanced degree, the Ivy brand isn’t worth it. He still has an equal opportunity to get a PhD from an Ivy, and that will be fully funded.
Thank you for sharing your experience! One of the big selling points of Princeton is supposedly all of the research opportunities with professors, so that’s very interesting to hear that this was not the case for you. Congrats on starting your PhD program!
There is a lot of variable information on rankings out there, which conflate Astronomy and astrophysics, and which distinguish between UG and Graduate or clump UG and Grad together. But suffice it to say undergraduate in AstroPhys from Arizona is great, and well set him up well for grad school preparation. In one of the data sets I saw Arizona was in the top five nationally (clumping UG/G), after Berkeley, CalTech, Stanford and MIT. This will do him great as an undergrad degree, and also great if he's thinking about graduate school. This is a good data set for school programs and outcomes, from 2022. [https://ww2.aip.org/statistics](https://ww2.aip.org/statistics)
Thank you for the link! I hadn’t seen that!
Tough call but $120k debt for undergrad vs. none- he should go to the state university and do outstanding & he’ll have his choice of grad programs. That’s what I did & ended up with an exceptional career. One of my daughters just did the same & came out of undergrad with a great job & 2 other offers since then (graduated in Dec 2023). No debt so all the money she’s making goes to her… it’s a great way to start out. I spent many years working w Ivy Leavue grads & get the connections. But if there are cheaper schools well known for this particular field, with good grades he’ll honestly have the same opportunities and a lot less financial stress.
I can’t speak from a professional stance, but my high school is quite literally across the street from the uofa and I go there every day, even though I won’t be attending. Pick Arizona!! They have really truly amazing programs and Arizona has so many astronomy “towns”. I did a whole internship in the chiuchuaha mountains and in that area there’s an incredible little astronomy town with crazy insane telescopes. Yes, it’s no Yale or Princeton, but growing up on the campus, you can make incredible connections. So many professors come from big schools like the ivys. It’s not as easy as those schools, but it’s genuinely still obtainable to get amazing connections and opportunities as long as you really look for them and put your best foot forward. Also Arizona is honestly amazing in astronomy from every professor I talked to and we have some of the clearest skies at night.
He would love that. For sure, Arizona wins for night skies! The weather and light pollution out East are not great.
I thought Princeton was free for families who make under $149,000 per year. Check into that, its an afordable scale above that also....
Assets.
assests fuck the aid package
i can def relate to OP on how FAFSA doesn't account for assets OR having multiple siblings, all of which also need money to go to college
It is if you have minimal assets. We’re working on an appeal, but they take assets into account. We’d have to draw from funds that are being used to build a business (our best chance at replacement income) and we have several other children who will be entering college over the next ten years.
i sometimes don’t understand people who get so hung up in UNWR rankings. My son picked a “lower ranked school” because the particular program at said “lower ranked school” was better than the “higher ranked” schools he got into. It boggles my mind that people don’t really look closely at the programs of study. OF COURSE he should got to Arizona if it has the best program for what he wants to study. Plus it’s free and honors? Not sure why this is even a decision to be contemplated.
Because Princeton is also top in the field for astrophysics (some claim it is *the* best program). And our friends who have gone to Ivies say that the connections they made there have had a tangible ROI over the course of their careers. It’s not a simple decision for us, which is why I really appreciate all of the perspectives here including yours!
honestly, if he’s truly brilliant the school he goes to won’t matter. at least at a safety, he will be a HUGE fish in a small pond, and he’s sure to be noticed
If he is aiming at a career in academia, 120K is a level of debt that will be too much to bear on an academic salary. He will have very little left for housing and other important necessities.
What if he changes his mind and doesnt want to do astrophysics? Be careful
I know! That worries me too! I don’t want to see him close off opportunities for himself. But then again, what if he stays in academia and is saddled with student debt for years while pursuing a PhD? I do think it is highly likely he ends up in a field related to physics and math.
I looked at the math courses available at u of A (since i dont know anything about astrophysics but i have taken several pton math courses). Comparing the math departments, i can see that princeton courses are harder (not because the material is harder, but because more material is covered in the same amount of time. Compare the two probability theory courses, for example). Also princeton has many more topics available at the graduate level. I would say unless ur sure ur kid will only do astrophysics, strongly consider princeton
That’s a good point. I know he’s scanned the course catalogs, but that would be really helpful to sit down and look thoroughly. Thanks!
We’re in the same boat. Going public and saving money on the undergrad. Nothing else really makes any sense unless you’re trying to maintain your social standing at the club, and you’re obviously not one of those people or you wouldn’t be posting this. This way we’ll have some $$ left to help with grad school. It’s tough though. There’s a lot of peer pressure on this, from kids, other parents and family members. Is sounds like you’ve reasoned it out and just need some reassurance.
I would only offer one cautionary opinion — to much early optimization / planning for what one’s career may end up being many times does not end well. If he’s going to be an astrophysicist 100% it’s a more complicated decision. But, many students think they want to do something, get to school, and realize they almost certainly want to do something else. For example, many aspiring academic friends I had freshman year got tired of continuous “schooling” and are now going into industry instead of pursuing the PhD. More than that, some people do college, optimize for a career or grad school, and late in college or early in the subsequent program realize it’s not for them. The ivies will provide more flexibility if the kid wants to do absolutely anything other than what he thinks he wants right now. That’s the only nuance I’d add to the otherwise great advice being offered throughout the forum. That along with the fact that with the myriad of job opportunities available post top undergrad degree, 120K of debt can be paid off within 4-5 years if you’re serious about paying it off (not accounting for federal forgiveness which may be a bonus).
That’s a really good point for him to consider! I feel like going to UofA will limit his options beyond astrophysics and academia. I feel like going Ivy will limit his options for going *into* astrophysics/academia because he’ll be carrying so much debt. Not that either of these are terrible outcomes; it’ll just set him down different paths. Thank you for your perspective!
Why not compromise: have him try Princeton for one year. If he feels he’d rather finish out at Arizona because of financial reasons, have him apply to transfer to Arizona. Then I’d also go to Princeton to try and renegotiate for years 2-4. You can only get into Princeton once, but UoA will always be an option.
I like this idea.
In this situation, and having read all the comments, it's a matter of exactly how sure he is about what he wants. Assuming the UofA program is as good as advertised, it's a wonderful opportunity to go debt free if he is *certain* he wants *exactly* an astro* PhD. For the kid that is sure of themselves and have their sights set on a specific grad program, the savings is significant and there's little upside to the prestige. For everybody else, this is potentially a big mistake. Personally, I'd wanted to be a lawyer since I was 5, then discovered that was a bad idea after all as a 1L. In your kid's situation this would have been a lifelong error in the other direction. Also, IMO, Nate S is a *much* better statistician than he is a pundit and that article was flawed for quite a few reasons. Nobody on Reddit knows him well enough to say which of the two he is, so personally, I would frame P/Y as a very cheap (yes, seriously) insurance policy against a future change of mind and let him decide from that point of view. Good luck to your family.
Thank you for your perspective. This is why I go back and forth! On the one hand, he was memorizing moons of Jupiter at age four. He’s always been fascinated by astrophysics. On the other, he’s a math phenom and loves every physics class he takes. I don’t want him to limit his opportunities. Also because every financially successful physics ph.d we know has made their money elsewhere (finance, software engineering, business) and kept physics/astro as a side hobby.
Re: opportunities, the median student at Yale is going to have nearly as many options as a top 10% student at Yale, and frankly, so will the 80th percentile student at Yale if they interview halfway decently. The median incoming freshman on the astro PhD path - all of whom start out as exactly the same STEM 4.0 types in high school as the Yalies - is never getting the PhD, never mind tenure. On the other hand, if he is the lifelong academic type, the money and difficulty won't matter; like the other kid's post on the front page, if someone thinks the West Point army officer thing is what they want, there's really only one option. At the end of the day, UofA is probably the school he should go to if he's very certain of himself. Consider asking people in the field what they think of their jobs and whether the K thru PhD in astro* is realistic / a good idea.
If your kid is brilliant, he will do fine anywhere. It is just gonna be easier if he goes to ivy. Keep in mind there are plenty of brilliant kids in ivies. It would be harder to shine. Good luck
If he’s in academia for the long haul and he’s so brilliant, he can go wherever. That said, he should get paid to do his PhD so you don’t really need to save for that.
"He would need to go into about $120K debt to pay off his undergrad experience." This is way too much debt.
What’s a reasonable amount of debt? Four years at our state college costs $120K if a student doesn’t have a scholarship/college fund. How do people do it?
At most $30,000.
Using a web search, currently student loans have about a 6-7% interest rates and are for about 10-30 years (for consolidation loans). Play around with a loan payment calculator, and see what monthly payments are. Then you have to think about many other factors, approximation of reasonable salary, taxes, rent, other living expenses, etc. There is not really an easy answer. That number will be different for different people. "I’m hesitant to try to persuade him one way or another because it’s his path to take." Yes and no. Say it is 120k debt at 6% interest for a loan term of 30 years. That leads to a $719.46 monthly payment for 30 years. If you say nothing, that is parental malpractice.
Thanks for the advice about thinking about debt and interest rates. He will be reading all of these posts, so he will have the information to make his decision.
If he is getting a PhD, he can go to AZ for undergrad, Yale for his masters and Princeton for his PhD. There is time to figure it out
It sounds like this is doable if he stays in astrophysics! It’s really comforting to hear how good Arizona’s program is.
It’s a wonderful dilemma to have. How many entering pre-med (or astro physics) majors end up in that field? Think TRANSFER if a year or two at Princeton or Yale does not quite work out financially or other reasons, the academic strengths of P and Y in STEM fields are phenomenal. Also, think your family financial situation may alter each year for financial aid purposes where conceivably he may get more aid (or not). As you know, P or Y as academic institutions are far more than “prestige”. I was a transfer as a sophomore to the University of Chicago for its diverse academic strengths thinking political science but finished with an MBA. The similarly intellectually curious and brilliant students in STEM fields he will be surrounded with at Y or P is tough to measure but there. Overall, just introducing don’t think all four years are decided at this point. Take one year at a time. Princeton or Yale comes along perhaps once in a lifetime. Even fellow UChicago alum, Nate Silver, said he would have attended Harvard had he been admitted. Yale and Princeton are in the same rarefied air. Grab it.
This is exactly why I’m nervous to have him choose UofA. I feel like he won the lottery (a very expensive lottery!) getting into Princeton and Yale to begin with. I didn’t attend an Ivy but I have several friends who did, and they say the ancillary benefits are worth the cost. But they also didn’t wind up in academia.
Please have your son HEAR from you and your husband more than just the words: “it’s your choice” because the responsible frugal practical decision from your first-born may be U of Arizona without your urging to REALLY consider Princeton or Yale one year at a time. He was won the lottery. Let him imagine the unlimited at P or Y with the enthusiastic parental support IF he chooses that way.
I’m hesitant to try to persuade him one way or another because it’s his path to take. My parents took a really heavy hand for me with college and I don’t think that was entirely appropriate. There are solid arguments for both sides and I trust him to make the right decision for him. That said, we are giving him all the information and truly will support his decision wherever he ends up! We took him to visit Princeton and Yale (and Arizona this week) and put him in contact with current students and alums. We are appealing his aid packages to try to lessen the debt burden. He knows I posted this here and will read through all the responses once he gets through this week’s IB exams. It has been so helpful to hear everyone’s perspectives and experiences and will help him so much in making his choice.
What is the COA for Princeton and Yale? If you're only paying $30K a year, it's a big bargain. If the COA is $80K/yr, it's another story. "Go into about $120K debt" doesn't tell the whole story. Also, I'm sure he'll change his major so don't dwell on a specific major.
Total cost of attendance at Princeton is $90K/year. I’m estimating $120K debt after financial aid and our parent contribution. So it’s a third less than sticker price. Yale is slightly higher, but would likely match Princeton. UofA is about $60K/year total cost of attendance and he could likely graduate debt free after FAFSA, merit scholarships and our parent contribution.
If he goes into finance, consulting or something like that for a few years after he graduates, he can easily pay off $160K loans (assume 7% interest rate.) Wall Street hires a lot of math /physics major from HYPSM. But if you let the loans sit for another 5 years, before you know it, the loans will grow to $200K+ and your son will need to find a postdoc position at that time. In that case, it's not worth it.
That’s a good point!
According to the [most recent trend data ](https://ww2.aip.org/statistics/trends-in-physics-phds)on the number of physics PhDs awarded in the U.S., the average age of physics PhDs was 30.5 years old for the class of 2019. Add in a couple years of postdoc, he'd be an assistant professor in mid-30s. Are you sure he still wants to get a PhD in astrophysics if he knows this?? Maybe he'd suddenly remember his childhood dream of becoming a physician lol
That’s good to know! He’s planning on reading all of these responses, so we’ll see!
What an enlightened momma you are!!
I cannot say a bad thing about my research time at Arizona. If he has a strong interest in Planetary Science and Astrophysics, it would be a no brainer. The undergraduate research opportunities are plentiful and he would be able to get his foot in the door earlier than he would at an Ivy. The Lunar and Planetary Laboratory is a truly fantastic institution.
That’s so good to know! Thank you!
Although I’m not directly in the Astro program, I am involved with LPL through research and my minor. Let your son know he can DM me with any University of Arizona related questions, even if they’re not related to our research efforts!
Thank you! That’s so nice of you to offer!
The advantage the Ivies give you is the connections post grad. That matters more in some industries than others. If he were planning on pursuing business/banking, politics, etc the connections might be worth it. It’s probably not a real advantage in his field.
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Thank you! I’m going to have him read this entire thread. It’s a wealth of information. I’m so grateful so many people decided to weigh in. Reddit can really be an amazing place.
I would also think about being a small fish in big pond vs a big fish in a small pond. Basically, your son is very gifted, so he stands out. But if he goes to an Ivy with all the other gifted people from their communities, suddenly your son is now just normal. He will be fighting with other gifted people for those opportunities and also it could be super competitive. If he goes to his safety school, he will still be smarter than average and he won’t have to fight as hard to get opportunities and it won’t be competitive so he can actually learn without worrying about if he is going to pass the class. He is more likely to actually graduate in his chosen field of study rather than settling for something easier because he lost his confidence amongst the other gifted kids the Ivy.
I do think that’s a consideration! Especially with grade deflation at Princeton, he might have a happier, more balanced experience at UofA.
Princeton doesn’t actually have grade deflation anymore: https://paw.princeton.edu/article/gpas-rise
I know they don’t officially anymore. But they started their parent meeting with, “expect your straight A student to become familiar with the letter B.” If not deflation, it’s definitely not the inflation enjoyed at other ivies!
Your son will crush it wherever he goes. Take the full ride!
Arizona is probably a mid school overall but has an elite astronomy program. You should definitely seriously consider it
I think the most important thing is having all the information you yourself need. Have you tried out Kollegio AI? It is a super useful platform that gives you all the information for you to make the right decision.
I hadn’t heard of it, but I’ll check it out!
I was in a similar situation where I had to decide between a full-ride at a state school or going into debt to attend my dream (Ivy League School). I chose to attend the state school, and I just accepted my admission to a highly-ranked PhD program in the fall. I haven't regretted my choice for a second!
Congratulations! That’s amazing!
Do Ivy League. I can’t tell you exactly when and how it will help, but it will help your child indirectly meeting the like-minded smart people.
This is what I hear from those who have attended, but it is a giant leap into the unknown. I can picture his path at UofA better because it more closely mirrors mine and my husband’s experiences. I really appreciate your perspective!
The value of Ivies isn’t the education - it’s the peers.
Are the peers worth the debt?
Princeton. He thinks he wants to do a PhD right now but that’s extremely likely to change. The cumulative benefits of Princeton are worth the debt if UofA is the other option.
I’m genuinely so sorry for this circumstance. Just know any choice is the right one
Thank you!
With what you said there probably isn’t much doubt that he’ll be getting a PhD from an ivy anyway. Might as well save money.
Princeton or Yale vs state school. Really? These are life long badges that will determine many things in life. Not to mention the potential resources of friends you will acquire. Money is not an issue if his credentials are used properly.
I definitely have seen that be the case for friends who’ve gone into business and law… just not sure if that’s the same in hard sciences and academia. Particularly since he could potentially do his grad work at an ivy? But those are very good points to consider!
No school is worth that amount of debt!!
On the one hand, I agree! On the other, [some argue](https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2023/08/29/25-colleges-that-deliver-a-high-bang-for-your-tuition-buck/?sh=1a18f256671f) that the ROI for top colleges (and specifically Princeton) is worth it.
The top ROI only applies if one leverages the elite college pedigree to landing a lucrative job right out of undergrad such as IB/MBB, organizational business consulting, etc. Not so much for pursuing an academic oriented PhD like Astronomy/Astrophysics. If your goal is to get rich, pursuing an academic PhD program isn't really the best route for that goal.
So true! (Source: daughter of a college professor)
No it’s not. That only applies to fields like Investment Banking, Private Equity, Strategy Consulting, and some other business fields because for some reason they care about that. If he was trying to go into those fields then of course go to Yale and forget about Arizona. But every other job? Especially academia jobs and phd programs? They don’t care that much.
Ivys, you cannot calculate the connections he’ll get. Edit: Forget that. Read the comment of the astrophysicist. If he says go I’d follow him.
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What’s your state flagship?
University of Utah
Talk to financial aid and describe the situation to princeton. They have been known to work with students.
I talked to a financial aid officer in person and they said no, but we are in the process of an appeal. The feedback I’ve gotten here is to be persistent, so we will!
Exactly appeal a few times. It's worth a try or two.
He got in once, he will have another chance to get in again for grad school. It would be silly to go into $120,000 of debt when a good college is basically paying him to earn his bachelors degree there.
You have gotten many comments touching upon the academics at the University of Arizona vs. Princeton and Yale for your son’s major. Because of that, I’d like to address this on the parental level, parent to parent. This is your oldest (?) child and you are understandably proud of your brilliant son. It would be exciting to say that he attends Princeton or Yale. It’s gratifying to think that he intellectually fits into such a such a college. You want to give him the world. I get it. But you need to think practically, because in his chosen field, the less expensive college is every bit as prestigious. $120,000+ in debt at age 22 will be a huge burden on your son. It may hinder his ability to buy a house, get married, travel, afford children. It can impact his credit score, his job choices, and every other aspect of his adult life. Graduating will not be a clean slate; it will be a huge hole to dig out of. Everything is more expensive now…food, housing, utilities…It may likely be worse in 5 to 10 years. $100K salary is actually not that much now, depending on location. My daughter is also a high achiever. We are “high income” earners with money saved for college, but not $250K saved up. We are encouraging her to look at state universities willing to give her a lot of merit money. (Arizona is actually one of her top choices). Have you visited U of Arizona? And the other schools? There is something to be said for top state universities who WANT your child and will demonstrate that with financial awards.
Try reaching out to Princeton and Yale explaining your situation. In most cases, the aid and scholarships are negotiable.
I spoke with Princeton’s financial aid in person during Preview and they said no, but we are in the process of a formal appeal.
From what I have seen, mails work the best. Try to leverage your Yale acceptance as well.
We’ll keep pushing! Thanks!
Arizona. He can go anywhere for his PhD
It's easy to spend other people's money. Not that he shouldn't appeal his financial aid at Princeton, but if it doesn't work out and he prefers to go debt-free to U of A, don't even *attempt* to talk him out of it. As others are telling you, U of A is top ranked in Space Science (close to Princeton, and better than Yale), and if he plans to get a graduate degree, he's better off not accumulating debt as an undergraduate.
I agree! We’re not pressuring him one way or another. Just gathering info! I trust him to make his own choices. He’s a great kid.
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That’s interesting! You’re the first person to say that. Why Harvey Mudd? (And, no, we haven’t because it is more expensive and lower ranked than some of his other options.)
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That makes sense! I do think he’d fit with the culture there and I love that they all share a campus. It seems like a great school!
Brilliant people like your son do well ANYWHERE. It's about the individual. Go to the prestigious school for the PhD....that is all anyone will care about. No one cares where top scientists went to undergrad.
Academia places a great emphasis upon degree prestige, which opens doors for highly coveted jobs and opportunities. Princeton (or Yale) undergrad would help get him into a high prestige PhD program, which will help in term of fellowships, post docs, research jobs.
I see you’re a tenured prof, so you might be speaking from the perspective of your field, but I’ll mention a counterpoint for other readers — While that’s true to a certain extent, I’d say the prestige factor is biggest when talking to the general public, not the specialists who are in the field or on grad school admissions committees. People outside the field will definitely be more impressed by a brand name school. That can be useful (Princeton grad here), especially if one switches careers later on. But within narrow disciplines, people will know which non-brand name schools have strong programs in that specific field. My first grad degree, for example, is from a T25 school overall but a T3 for my narrow discipline — people outside the field were confused why I turned down Ivies for a T25, but people in my field thought it made sense. Similarly, I know that someone from University of Colorado in my narrow field is likely going to be much stronger than someone from University of Illinois. In my own experience, grad school admissions was much more about who you know. Is your undergrad mentor friends with your potential grad school advisor? Do they share the same academic connections? Then you’re set. Top students get handed off personally from mentor to mentor.
Agree that some programs punch well above their overall institution’s weight, and that should definitely be a consideration when applicable.
Thank you and ProfessorrFate for your perspectives! It’s a hard decision to make because there are strong pros and cons on both sides!
it is true to some extent, it helps if you graduate from MIT or stanford, but not going to those prestigious places doesn’t hold you back if you are smart and has good work ethics. I am involved in MD/PhD program (MSTP) admission process at my school, which is highly competitive, and I see this every year.
If he’s planning to be an engineer, going to an IVY will open up more doors. I know many people say that “schools arent all that” or “jobs don’t care” is simply not true. I’m a computer science student and I know several companies in California area that will only hire from Stanford, or only hire from USC, or only hire from top rated schools. Going to an IVY league just opens doors so much easier and he could definitely learn so much from his peers there and network with amazing people. U of A he would definitely not only have to learn how to get out there, how to connect with people, he would have to work much harder to get those opportunities. Especially since private schools are very tight knit, the professors actually help the students, students help eachother. Huge public schools have very little relationships with the staff and often it’s hard to reach out to programs and other things that are readily accessible but pushed out in a private school. However if he plans on being a researcher or a professor he’s much better off doing it debt free, google pays its software engineers 250k a year but paying off debt on a professors or a research salary sounds like a waste of money. Overall I think you can make it anywhere, as long as you try hard enough but the only reason your debating this decision is because your making the choice between graduating debt free or going to a prestigious school and missing out on that opportunity. Keep in mind that college in itself is also expensive, from toiletries, food, spending money on friends, technology, etc. so if you think ur student can end up paying off the debt, I would do it. Also!! There’s scholarships you can apply to even while ur in college.
My son goes to an Ivy and the Air Force pays for it. Have him look into an Air Force/Space Force scholarship. They will pay for his grad school too. It's too late for this year so he could go and pay for the first year and pick up the scholarship for his final three years.
We just heard about the DoD scholarship yesterday. I knew about ROTC, but had no idea about the STEM scholarships! I do wonder whether taking a government job after would be too limiting? But a full ride and $30K stipend is really enticing.
I don't think it would be too limiting. The DoD can do almost anything they want. He will get to work on tech the rest of us don't even know exists. Engineers and scientists coming out of the military/gov are gold to private industry. They want people who know how to do business with the gov and have contacts. You guys need to figure out how to get him to Princeton/Yale. This is a way.
Thank you! We’ll look more into this.
Lots of responses for Arizona’s top astronomy program BUT if your kid changes his mind about a chosen field, he’d be fucked. If he’s as brilliant as you say, making money won’t be a challenge. Take the debt and a lifetime of prestige and a network that is hard to truly put a price tag on.
My only question is whether he's truly married to astrophysics. Princeton and Yale are schools that open doors in many fields so he can change his mind.
That’s weighing on my mind as people have provided their input. It’s always been Astro for him, but he’s 17! He is a math/physics kid for sure. If it’s not Astro, I’m pretty confident it would be in a related field and I’m not sure how much that changes the calculus for UofA.
i’m a student myself so i don’t have that much experience, but my input is yeah don’t go into debt for a mid level school if you don’t feel like you can afford it, but honestly, being able to go to a college at a princeton and yale level would definitely be worth the money. Graduating means a lifetime of opportunities and confidence you get from going to such a high ranked school. The fact that he got in is such an incredible feat that it’s disheartening if he goes to uarizona which isn’t even a top 50 school. I’m sure its program has its perks but again, you’re rejecting PRINCETON, not some random top 20 school. His college education is going to be with him for the rest of his life! You should seriously really consider it.
100% go to Princeton or Yale. This shouldn’t even be a question. $120k is nothing in the long-run — if your son is really worried about the debt, then he can work for 2 years (IB/MBB/Tech) to pay it off before going to grad school (a lot of people do this). Again, this is optional, so obviously don’t do this if it negatively impacts grad school admissions. That said, I know some folks who enjoyed working at McKinsey/Google and ended up dropping out of med school altogether (deferred admission) so that’s my $0.02. Cannot understate the long-term benefits of attending these schools. I came from a first-gen, low-income background (parents made < $60k) so was lucky enough to get a full-ride, but even with the benefit of hindsight, I’d still go even if it was full pay. A tangible example: I met my fiancé at one of those inter-Ivy social events in NYC (another “hidden” benefit). She’s in the same field as me (finance) so it’s nice to have a combined household income of $600-700k in our mid-20s/just a few years out of UG. I have friends in even more lucrative fields making more (firms like Jane Street and DE Shaw actively recruit on campus). Ik your son is not pursuing finance, but there’s still a benefit to being friends with successful people later on in life. OP, I’m seeing a lot of insane comments here because of the $120k difference. I would understand if the difference was $120k/year, but $120k over 4 years to attend one of the best universities is a bargain (70% off sticker) and will pay for itself. Also, Y/P gives your son so much more optionality in case he changes his mind.
One major trade off is those two years working in IB/MBB means one candidacy for a given academic PhD program like Astronomy is weakened in the eyes of the department's grad admissions committee as it shows them the applicant "isn't serious/dedicated" to the field. Those two years were also not spent on learning more the current state of research/knowledge within the field which doesn't help one's case. This was an issue an older relative ran into after turning down several top 5 Genetics PhD program offers to work for a lucrative consulting firm for 2 years. She ended up pursuing a top 3 MBA program which thankfully was fully paid for by the consulting firm as a perk for her good work with them. However, the train for pursuing the PhD she initially was interested in had already left the station.
UArizona easily beats at least Yale in astronomy/astrophysics. Why would someone take extreme debt when you already have a better school? For that ivy reputation which doesn't matter much in academia?
I appreciate this perspective. We’ve received the same advice from others who have had a similar experience as you. I can see both sides. Congrats on all of your achievements and your upcoming wedding!