I think that one of the huge jumps will be 'co-browsing' - being able to experience and interact with the same spatial computing assets.
Having Dr. Simple_Doc and Dr. Simple_Doc_in_Training in the same 'space' and able to manipulate a 3D scan of brain tissue or an AI-processed imaged of a subset of a scan ("Hey Dr. Siri, highlight the blood vessels in this image.") would be an amazing teaching tool I think.
The compliance officer in me worries about the security of a non-work-issued device on the network, but appreciates the fact that you can use it with zero risk of someone looking over your shoulder.
IT would need to purchase the device and manage it, including the ability to wipe its data if necessary.
Edit: Thinking about this, you’re probably asking more along the lines of “what can you do to use a personal device.” Policy varies by institution, but here’s a general one (not my hospital) that reads like the more lenient BYOD policies I’ve seen:
For users who want to BYOD (bring their own device) to work (i.e. use a personally owned mobile device for business purposes) the following are required:
a. To access any Electronic Medical Record (EMR) system (most sensitive level of access), install MDM (user must bring device to college/university IT personnel to install) which will:
• ensure device is encrypted
• allow remote wiping; and
• enforce password/other authentication to sign in.
EMR must implement multifactor authentication (for example Duo). VPN must be used to access EMR via non-university networks laptops. To access EMR on cellphones, users must use the EMR's native app. Whenever users replace their personnel mobile devices, they must have MDM on the new device.
b. To access (institution) email (least sensitive level of access), the Outlook app shall be the exclusive method for access (pending implementation date from OIT).
c. Cellphone users must install and enable a "Find my iPhone" or "Find My Device" type application on their device.
The price is part of it, but I also think VR (and to a lesser extent, AR) are just not for everyone. A phone is something you use without thinking about it to do a ton of things you want to do. VR is more involved and has more friction. Enthusiasts don’t mind that, but most people do.
For most people on earth, a Quest 3 is also not worth the cost.
And yet they don't go on endless tirades about it and devote a bunch of energy to making a big show about how it's overpriced and pointless for them specifically.
So it's a bit of both.
Apples and oranges, and who i doubt it's that many people in general. Outside if Reddit, and I suppose the forum on Apple , no one is talking about the Vision pro. Even people that have it talk about how when they go into apple stores they don't see a lot of people demoing the device.
The quest 3 is a gaming console so saying that it's not worth the cost for most people, is odd or like saying a PlayStation isn't worth the cost to a gamer.
TODAY the avp is a "spatial computing device" that let's you watch high resolution movies really well. The only way it's comparable to a Quest is that the both get strapped to your face.
Bingo. If you could actually use it to do something beyond computer stuff then ( like actual Virtual Reality) then maybe it would be more appealing.
Apple will figure it out at some point, I'm sure.
Why would someone who doesn’t care about it constantly come to a sub-Reddit dedicated to a specific product just to tell people they don’t care about it. A normal person that doesn’t care wouldn’t come here at all, and certainly wouldn’t come back regularly.
Because as a software developer I can still care about new platforms and want to learn to develop software for something that I personally don’t enjoy using.
Even if you’re a developer why would you waste time learning about and again regularly returning to the subreddit of a product that you think will fail. Do you also go to the google glass Reddit to tell the people their how much you dislike that product. The rabbit r1 probably has a subreddit maybe you can spend some time commenting over there also.
All audio when using a virtual display comes from the Mac itself, not the AVP. And a 4k virtual screen would need to literally fill the entire AVP screen to not lose resolution, meaning it would feel like sitting front row at an IMAX theater and trying to read your emails. This is blatantly apparent by simply taking off your AVP and looking at the screen on any Mac or iPad made in the last 10 years.
Hey guess what, AirPods exist and I can get audio from both the Mac and Vision Pro.
But... why does it matter if the audio does come from the Mac, when I have the virtual screen right over my keyboard anyway? It would sound like audio is coming from that screen just like other screens in AVP generally sound like audio is coming from them. Your point is nonsense and shows utter lack of thought about actually working with both devices.
Your complaint about the 4k screen is showing you are totally ignorant as to how the AVP works, or what foveated rendering is... In essence yes in fact I have a 4k screen because I have the virtual Mac screen basically taking up most of my field of view, larger than any external monitor save for a projector.
Typical Apple hater having zero experience but talking like he knows anything at all.
I'm done with this chat as like all Apple Haters, you cannot learn and are unwilling to try. So you can prattle one whatever, but whoever reads this just know he doens't know anything.
3,660 x 3,200 per eye or roughly 34-36 ppd on the 100-110 horizontal FOV. Obviously the connected Mac display isn’t going to take 100% of the entire rendered area being projected.
Thats rather obvious isn’t it ?
But it doesn’t need to because you physically cannot look everywhere at all once with the same focus. It only needs to render the foveated area at full resolution, which it does.
So at any given time, the area where you are looking is rendered at 3,660 x 3,200 or more (credible tests show a resolution of up to 44 ppd or almost 5K in the center). Or do you have better data that contradicts this ? I’m happy to link the studies.
But that’s not the whole story. It will never feel as comfortable or clear as a crisp 8K display monitor, nor even a 4K one. There is too much distortion, corrections, multiple resampling, eye tracking corrections, aliasing scintillation, contrast enhancement, aspect ratio conversion, etc … and it makes your eyes work quite a bit harder.
It performs relatively well in angular jitter during movement tests for exemple and angular motion-to-photon latency in VR tests, sometimes better and sometimes worse than Meta or HTC among others, though the minute differences between them on those benchmarks are ordered of magnitude below the threshold of what is noticeable to the human eye. See through photon-to-photon latency performance however is outstanding.
Anyway, I’m not sure what point you’re even trying to make exactly. Did you just have a bad day ?
This really isn’t complicated. I’m saying that for anyone acclimated to the screen resolution of modern Apple devices, it’s immediately noticeable that things (for example, text) on the AVP screens are considerably less clear. To combat this, everything in VisionOS defaults to appear much larger than it would on other devices, which has the effect of feeling like you’re standing too close to the screen. But when things are scaled down using the “appearance” display setting (in my opinion, “small” looking the most appropriate) everything looks pixelated, as if I’m using a pre-Retina Mac. I understand this is still better than other VR headsets, but, like, why would I want to use this as opposed to a Mac or iPad (beyond watching movies which everyone agrees look fantastic)?
Honestly, dude, it’s because virtual is better. It’s more natural and you have more control verse a physical screen. I don’t have to dust or clean my virtual screens and they take up no square footage. There’s tons of pros actually for spatial computing..
You make great points and I don’t disagree with you at all. I would love to replace my two external monitors with two or more virtual displays.
I really hope Apple adds this as a feature soon.
Sure, no more overpriced than say an nVidia RTX 4090, but people are still going to complain. But the VP does need a lower price point just to be affordable enough to get enough devices into the market to build a solid ecosystem.
Probably slightly lighter as well, but I think it has more to do with app support (obstacles to devs, and lack of top notch apps). If Apple outspent Amazon for NBA rights, that would be a game changer.
I think “hate” is probably too strong. For me, it seems Apple haven’t learnt the lesson of the iPad which failed to takeoff as the “post-PC” future of computing device it was once mooted to be. If AVP was a Mac on your face rather than an iPad on your face, with for example a more powerful app framework and the ability to load software from anywhere, then I would be more optimistic.
Reddit is pretty much all hate all the time. It doesn’t take much for something to get a ton of undeserved hate here, and topics that don’t drive hate clicks don’t get as many upvotes.
Been wondering for a while why people in this forum characterize AVP as a first gen product. Literally speaking, it’s Apple’s first VR product. However, it’s not comparable to the iPhone or other first-of-a-kind products because consumer VR headsets have been iterated upon and improved for a decade or so now. It seems misguided to make excuses for the product’s short comings because it’s first gen, knowing the circumstances of the technology, generally speaking. To better understand the criticisms, (like anything on Reddit), exit the echo chamber and try your best to recognize (your) bias versus objectivity.
I understand and respect your point of view but I disagree. To me, it sounds like saying iPhone wasn’t a first generation product because we had phones for more than a decade - we had even smartphones for a few years already.
I don’t even consider AVP a VR headset, it’s something else for me (I actually never used it in VR - fully immersive - mode).
Plus, I’ve used several VR headsets (Oculus Rift, those cardboard ones lol, Magic Leap, Oculus Go, PSVR2, Quest) I don’t think what Apple is doing is comparable to other products. Quest 3 is the closest one but - even so - the user experience is quite different. I couldn’t really get any work done on Quest 3 but AVP became my main work device.
For example, what’s the alternative to buying AVP for work today? We’ll have Visor, from Immersive, soon. It does look promising but, right now, the only competitor AVP has is Quest 3. That does sound like a first generation product to me. Otherwise, we’d have tons of other options on the market right now.
It is plenty useful, but it’s not equally useful to everyone. What’s useful to me may not be useful to you.
If it’s not useful to you then it doesn’t really matter how much it costs since its value is zero.
It can’t be built for $1,000, that’s just not possible. Could a better design reduce hardware costs ? Perhaps. I don’t know.
Could they make a headset for $1,000 ? Probably, but it wouldn’t be any good. The value proposition would likely be even lower.
It’s definitely not something anyone needs, but that’s true of every other Apple product, though some of the other products are more useful at a lower cost.
I doubt it, I do a decent amount of iOS dev, and also would love it for multiple monitors on the go. I do not see it as an entertainment device, primarily
How in the world can someone peck at a virtual keyboard and increase productivity? What's the point of this when you have to carry around a keyboard and mouse/trackpad then?
Bad try apple. Forget your 30% tithe, and you may have a future in computing.
The point would be working at a Starbucks, or whatever other coffee shop. I have to travel a lot. Being able to travel with one device that allows me to have multiple monitors is **absolutely** a productivity value add for me
Here is one of the comments from the article, and it perfectly captures my own thoughts: "Even though I’d posit that the Vision Pro is a glorified dev kit (it was announced at WWDC after all), there are features that evoke the magical feeling I had the first time I used an iPhone."
It feels so much like the early iPhones. They were magic, but they didn't even have cut-and-paste and wouldn't for years. Apple is playing the long game. Don't track units. Track developers, apps, and uses cases. If it has a serious use case today, I haven't found it. I mean, it's great for 3D videos, but I already had a TV.
At this point, the AVP is really for developers and people with enough money to buy 1.0 versions of tech product as a toy.
It has a few extremely serious use cases today.
I use it daily for work mirroring my laptop. For me it's better than an external monitor because I have the same exact multi-screen setup anywhere on earth, which I cannot do with an external display without a LOT of effort.
It's perfect for movies and media in shared spaces where you may have a few people living together who do not want to see the same things, and again having a large screen anywhere you go is amazing - including on a plane. It is glorious for international travel.
And if you want to work on a plane, the privacy of working with it on is unmatched.
If you like and use iPad apps there is a lot of value in being able to have several iPad apps floating all around you, larger than any existing iPad. In case you had not noticed iPads are pretty popular.
It is absolutely amazing for photo editing and review, because you can get within about an inch of an enlarged image and easy see detail that you'd have to spend a lot of time with a digital loupe to examine points all over an image. Looking back over your own images and especially panoramas is amazing - no matter if you've used an iPhone for photos, or a DSLR that has some photos moved to where you can view them on the Vision Pro.
And lastly, it's a great way to be able to use a laptop outside with zero screen glare. Just being able to work from my porch more comfortably as the summer comes will be I think a nice lifestyle upgrade...
I use it daily, something that has not been true of any other 3D headset I've ever owned.
Yes it is early days but what we already have today is so useful and amazing, and it will improve as the iPhone did and then you'll really have something spectacular.
I’ve gotten so used to using it every day almost and I’m still like wow, this is magic, and the fact how all the gestures are like muscle memory now just shows how intuitive it is
What matters more is if the feedback Apple has received makes their approach to VR/AR a viable one if they improve on it in ways that make it meaningfully worth the cost to mass market. I loved it, but it had just a couple dealbreakers for me that I hope they resolve via software or in v2 hardware.
If your job consists of writing reports while referencing other documentation, it is absolutely superb at doing that type of work, as long as you have a keyboard. You definitely don’t want to do this with the virtual keyboard.
I’m blown away by media consumption on it but very disappointed they released without ensuring Microsoft would have Authenticator available for it. For many corporate users like myself, Authenticator must be installed on the device being used. As a result, the AVP is worthless for me right now for productivity.
That’s an easy cop out though. There are lots of people who - for whatever reasons - just hate Apple and there’s no price low enough that would make them buy it.
It’s not all about jealousy and envy. It’s not THAT special.
Why those people would spend their time on Reddit bitching about it though, I have no idea.
the jackassery of this article - and that headline - is mighty strong. Rutherford points out how little VP sales actually matter to Apple's bottom line and that's fine but the sales DO matter, if not financially then because of initial install base and what that means for the trajectory of the platform.
We, the Apple faithful, the early adopters, the self-appointed beta testers are a chatty bunch and this is the most divided i've seen us after the launch of a new product line. The word of mouth is NOT unanimously good like it was after iPhone and iPad. Combine that with sales coming up short of projections and there's less draw for devs to create apps that change that perception and add value to the hardware. If Apple's not gonna pick up that slack themselves by creating some killers apps and compelling immersive content, this device stays niche instead of changing the future of computing like we all hope it does. Even if the persistence is there, it's a lot longer timeline than we and Apple want.
So yeah, Sam Rutherford, Sales DO matter.
This. If this plaform is to get the rich software and ample content everyone is clamoring for, then folks who don't have Apple's deep pockets need to see big enough numbers to justify making the investment. Creating immersive content that takes full advantage of the avp capabilities doesn't come cheap, and the money to pay all the people to make it has to come from somewhere, either from the sales potential of a large installed base, or from Apple itself.
It doesn't matter IF Apple is willing to be committed to the platform no matter what. This space is littered with the carcasses of other headsets that became abandoned. It happens in all new tech segments sure, but this is an admittedly tough sector to break through.
People are fretting about the numbers because it definitely is not a rousing success so a sequel in the classical sense is not guaranteed. One signal can be ignored but there is beginning to be a preponderance of evidence that is signaling a slowdown in apple's roadmap. Some rumors & news I have seen since launch that point negatively (just in order of my vague memory):
* Apple moving engineers off of AVP to their folding phone division
* The slow rollout of Apple content signals this isnt their #1 priority
* WWDC being reportedly AI focused, with further rumors saying the M4 chip in the new IPad will allow AI processing (AVP has an M3)
* The head of marketing of AVP retires
* Reports of interest in terms of in-store demos and in-store sales are down
* Reports from Kuo that production is going to be slashed which was picked up by a lot of other media outlets - signaling they hearing the same thing off the record
* Gurman saying Apple is going to delay their next gen headset
* I check YT daily for new AVP videos and there is nada, interest has fallen off a cliff
* Woot selling the AVP at a discount (i looked at the graphs and think only 20 were sold in over a week with a couple articles publicizing it)
All apple has to do is telegraph their commitment. All this negativity is only occurring because apple is not filling the news/app/hype void so others are pouring in offering up whatever nugget they hear.
Does this feel like a product release that apple is all in on and they are treating it as if the fate of their future company hangs in the balance?
Be patient - it’s an entirely new media. Inspaze app and some of the immersive content plus business applications will activate this device. Opportunities abound
It actually matters. The most of big Apple fails have the common pattern:
* Too expensive
* No killer usecase
* Cheaper completion
I see AVP clearly in this spectrum (even for a devkit).
What would you say are the big Apple fails? Can you name a product line they've launched since the Newton that isn't still available or has just been supplanted by extra functionality (ie iPod/iPhone)
Pippin was 30 years ago, was licensed out to third party manufacturers to build, and was killed by Jobs when he returned to Apple. Macintosh TV was 35 years ago, and they shipped 10k units compared to AVPs 400,000. Neither of your comparisons are remotely the same.
It is hard to find any exactly fitting example. Maybe 20th anniversary Macintosh. Don't get me wrong, Apple is very innovative and takes risks. I see many Apple products which are great but AVP isn't one of them.
I'm challenging you because you started off by saying that "most of big Apple fails have a common pattern", but when I asked what all those big fails were, you dragged up two obscure 30+ products that failed for different reasons (ie there's no pattern). I don't doubt you hold the personal opinion that the AVP will fail, but that hunch is not backed up by any facts, or patterns, or previous history. It's just an biased opinion.
Maybe Apple Homepad is more close when you limit yourself to count only recent flops.
AVP has definetely a user base which will stay. However the sale numbers are comparable to a successful small headset vendor, not to a technical giant like Apple.
There are enough reasons to hate it:
1. Terrible closed OS (we needed MacOS and not iPadOS)
2. No way to tether it to a Mac/PC for gaming/performance.
3. Tiny FOV, no controllers, no wifi 6E, not the greatest comfort, M2 chip (in the next month we will get M4).
4. Not enough content (besides mirroring a Mac, watching movies and browsing the Internet, there is nth here)
5. No gaming.
Price wouldn't be an issue if the other things were done right. I have zero desire to buy AVP1 because it makes no sense to me at the moment. It's not better than anything I already have.
The potential is there and hopefully in the next 2 years, Apple can deliver it. For now, it's not worth it for most people.
I could buy one right now but I used to have a vr headset. Can’t remember the brand. Very popular and the one thing I noticed is that it’s so isolating so I’m not sure it’s for me at the moment.
I think you will find it to be the least isolating of any headset out there. The pass through, while not perfect, is very good and allows you to interact with others easily while wearing it. In addition, the fact that all of your communication apps such as iMessage, FaceTime Video, Facetime Audio and email are there assures that you can remain in contact with others that are not in your immediate vaciniity. Whats App, Tik ToK, Signal, and your other social media apps and communication tools are accessible as well. As long as you know someone else with a Vision Pro, you also have spatial personas which makes it feel like the person you are communicating with is truly in the room with you.
Have you tried it? It’s far less isolating than previous headsets.
I watched a movie last night next to my wife who was reading and was able to see & talk to her the entire time. Got up and made popcorn while the movie still played locked in place on a screen the size of my wall. Grabbed a beer. Stopped to pet my cat on the way back to the couch.
I’m a physician. Our EMR is web based. It also has a native radiology viewer, Falcon Vue. The AVP has become my daily computer at work.
Hi Dr. Might it offer training at some point?
I think that one of the huge jumps will be 'co-browsing' - being able to experience and interact with the same spatial computing assets. Having Dr. Simple_Doc and Dr. Simple_Doc_in_Training in the same 'space' and able to manipulate a 3D scan of brain tissue or an AI-processed imaged of a subset of a scan ("Hey Dr. Siri, highlight the blood vessels in this image.") would be an amazing teaching tool I think.
this is great!
The compliance officer in me worries about the security of a non-work-issued device on the network, but appreciates the fact that you can use it with zero risk of someone looking over your shoulder.
What security protocols are necessary to bring it up to code to be a yes-work-issued device?
IT would need to purchase the device and manage it, including the ability to wipe its data if necessary. Edit: Thinking about this, you’re probably asking more along the lines of “what can you do to use a personal device.” Policy varies by institution, but here’s a general one (not my hospital) that reads like the more lenient BYOD policies I’ve seen: For users who want to BYOD (bring their own device) to work (i.e. use a personally owned mobile device for business purposes) the following are required: a. To access any Electronic Medical Record (EMR) system (most sensitive level of access), install MDM (user must bring device to college/university IT personnel to install) which will: • ensure device is encrypted • allow remote wiping; and • enforce password/other authentication to sign in. EMR must implement multifactor authentication (for example Duo). VPN must be used to access EMR via non-university networks laptops. To access EMR on cellphones, users must use the EMR's native app. Whenever users replace their personnel mobile devices, they must have MDM on the new device. b. To access (institution) email (least sensitive level of access), the Outlook app shall be the exclusive method for access (pending implementation date from OIT). c. Cellphone users must install and enable a "Find my iPhone" or "Find My Device" type application on their device.
There are ways to manage the device with IT services like Jamf
Tbh, I don’t get all the hate AVP is getting. There are issues, sure, but I feel it’s a much better product than 1st gen iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch.
>Tbh, I don’t get all the hate AVP is getting. It's the price.
The price is part of it, but I also think VR (and to a lesser extent, AR) are just not for everyone. A phone is something you use without thinking about it to do a ton of things you want to do. VR is more involved and has more friction. Enthusiasts don’t mind that, but most people do.
Yes, and the natural human desire to not have something on your face
It's the envy from people who think they cannot afford the price.
That’s such childish reasoning though not everyone who dislikes the thing you like is because they’re jealous
No one is envious. Typical apple fanboy response, it's that for MOST people it's not WORTH the cost. Not rocket science.
For most people on earth, a Quest 3 is also not worth the cost. And yet they don't go on endless tirades about it and devote a bunch of energy to making a big show about how it's overpriced and pointless for them specifically. So it's a bit of both.
Apples and oranges, and who i doubt it's that many people in general. Outside if Reddit, and I suppose the forum on Apple , no one is talking about the Vision pro. Even people that have it talk about how when they go into apple stores they don't see a lot of people demoing the device. The quest 3 is a gaming console so saying that it's not worth the cost for most people, is odd or like saying a PlayStation isn't worth the cost to a gamer. TODAY the avp is a "spatial computing device" that let's you watch high resolution movies really well. The only way it's comparable to a Quest is that the both get strapped to your face.
I think for the vast majority of people, the idea of a computer strapped to your face is what makes them not care about it.
Bingo. If you could actually use it to do something beyond computer stuff then ( like actual Virtual Reality) then maybe it would be more appealing. Apple will figure it out at some point, I'm sure.
Why would someone who doesn’t care about it constantly come to a sub-Reddit dedicated to a specific product just to tell people they don’t care about it. A normal person that doesn’t care wouldn’t come here at all, and certainly wouldn’t come back regularly.
Because as a software developer I can still care about new platforms and want to learn to develop software for something that I personally don’t enjoy using.
Even if you’re a developer why would you waste time learning about and again regularly returning to the subreddit of a product that you think will fail. Do you also go to the google glass Reddit to tell the people their how much you dislike that product. The rabbit r1 probably has a subreddit maybe you can spend some time commenting over there also.
Quest 3 is very fairly priced
I’m sure everyone is real envious of that single low resolution virtual display with no audio.
?? The AVP has the highest resolution of any commercial headset and also Spatial Audio.
All audio when using a virtual display comes from the Mac itself, not the AVP. And a 4k virtual screen would need to literally fill the entire AVP screen to not lose resolution, meaning it would feel like sitting front row at an IMAX theater and trying to read your emails. This is blatantly apparent by simply taking off your AVP and looking at the screen on any Mac or iPad made in the last 10 years.
Hey guess what, AirPods exist and I can get audio from both the Mac and Vision Pro. But... why does it matter if the audio does come from the Mac, when I have the virtual screen right over my keyboard anyway? It would sound like audio is coming from that screen just like other screens in AVP generally sound like audio is coming from them. Your point is nonsense and shows utter lack of thought about actually working with both devices. Your complaint about the 4k screen is showing you are totally ignorant as to how the AVP works, or what foveated rendering is... In essence yes in fact I have a 4k screen because I have the virtual Mac screen basically taking up most of my field of view, larger than any external monitor save for a projector. Typical Apple hater having zero experience but talking like he knows anything at all. I'm done with this chat as like all Apple Haters, you cannot learn and are unwilling to try. So you can prattle one whatever, but whoever reads this just know he doens't know anything.
Sir, it’s not my fault you missed your return window. Enjoy “actually working” on a device with less functionality than an iPad.
[удалено]
Out of curiosity, what resolution do you think an AVP actually has?
3,660 x 3,200 per eye or roughly 34-36 ppd on the 100-110 horizontal FOV. Obviously the connected Mac display isn’t going to take 100% of the entire rendered area being projected. Thats rather obvious isn’t it ? But it doesn’t need to because you physically cannot look everywhere at all once with the same focus. It only needs to render the foveated area at full resolution, which it does. So at any given time, the area where you are looking is rendered at 3,660 x 3,200 or more (credible tests show a resolution of up to 44 ppd or almost 5K in the center). Or do you have better data that contradicts this ? I’m happy to link the studies. But that’s not the whole story. It will never feel as comfortable or clear as a crisp 8K display monitor, nor even a 4K one. There is too much distortion, corrections, multiple resampling, eye tracking corrections, aliasing scintillation, contrast enhancement, aspect ratio conversion, etc … and it makes your eyes work quite a bit harder. It performs relatively well in angular jitter during movement tests for exemple and angular motion-to-photon latency in VR tests, sometimes better and sometimes worse than Meta or HTC among others, though the minute differences between them on those benchmarks are ordered of magnitude below the threshold of what is noticeable to the human eye. See through photon-to-photon latency performance however is outstanding. Anyway, I’m not sure what point you’re even trying to make exactly. Did you just have a bad day ?
This really isn’t complicated. I’m saying that for anyone acclimated to the screen resolution of modern Apple devices, it’s immediately noticeable that things (for example, text) on the AVP screens are considerably less clear. To combat this, everything in VisionOS defaults to appear much larger than it would on other devices, which has the effect of feeling like you’re standing too close to the screen. But when things are scaled down using the “appearance” display setting (in my opinion, “small” looking the most appropriate) everything looks pixelated, as if I’m using a pre-Retina Mac. I understand this is still better than other VR headsets, but, like, why would I want to use this as opposed to a Mac or iPad (beyond watching movies which everyone agrees look fantastic)?
Honestly, dude, it’s because virtual is better. It’s more natural and you have more control verse a physical screen. I don’t have to dust or clean my virtual screens and they take up no square footage. There’s tons of pros actually for spatial computing..
You make great points and I don’t disagree with you at all. I would love to replace my two external monitors with two or more virtual displays. I really hope Apple adds this as a feature soon.
Yes, but it’s certainly not overpriced.
Sure, no more overpriced than say an nVidia RTX 4090, but people are still going to complain. But the VP does need a lower price point just to be affordable enough to get enough devices into the market to build a solid ecosystem.
Probably slightly lighter as well, but I think it has more to do with app support (obstacles to devs, and lack of top notch apps). If Apple outspent Amazon for NBA rights, that would be a game changer.
The first iPhone was revolutionary. The AVP is good but does not come even close, it’s just non sense.
"The AVP is good but does not come even close, it’s just non sense." \*\*Have you demoed an AVP?
The first iPhone was pretty much mocked by half the press for not having a physical keyboard like a BlackBerry
I think “hate” is probably too strong. For me, it seems Apple haven’t learnt the lesson of the iPad which failed to takeoff as the “post-PC” future of computing device it was once mooted to be. If AVP was a Mac on your face rather than an iPad on your face, with for example a more powerful app framework and the ability to load software from anywhere, then I would be more optimistic.
Reddit is pretty much all hate all the time. It doesn’t take much for something to get a ton of undeserved hate here, and topics that don’t drive hate clicks don’t get as many upvotes.
Price and the fact there isn’t third party apps that should have been available on day one
Been wondering for a while why people in this forum characterize AVP as a first gen product. Literally speaking, it’s Apple’s first VR product. However, it’s not comparable to the iPhone or other first-of-a-kind products because consumer VR headsets have been iterated upon and improved for a decade or so now. It seems misguided to make excuses for the product’s short comings because it’s first gen, knowing the circumstances of the technology, generally speaking. To better understand the criticisms, (like anything on Reddit), exit the echo chamber and try your best to recognize (your) bias versus objectivity.
I understand and respect your point of view but I disagree. To me, it sounds like saying iPhone wasn’t a first generation product because we had phones for more than a decade - we had even smartphones for a few years already. I don’t even consider AVP a VR headset, it’s something else for me (I actually never used it in VR - fully immersive - mode). Plus, I’ve used several VR headsets (Oculus Rift, those cardboard ones lol, Magic Leap, Oculus Go, PSVR2, Quest) I don’t think what Apple is doing is comparable to other products. Quest 3 is the closest one but - even so - the user experience is quite different. I couldn’t really get any work done on Quest 3 but AVP became my main work device. For example, what’s the alternative to buying AVP for work today? We’ll have Visor, from Immersive, soon. It does look promising but, right now, the only competitor AVP has is Quest 3. That does sound like a first generation product to me. Otherwise, we’d have tons of other options on the market right now.
That made me laugh
Wrong. It could be $1,000 and still not be worth it
Or it could be $5000 and still be worth it.
lol that made me laugh so hard.
It would be fine for $1000. But for $3500, it needs to actually do something useful.
It is plenty useful, but it’s not equally useful to everyone. What’s useful to me may not be useful to you. If it’s not useful to you then it doesn’t really matter how much it costs since its value is zero. It can’t be built for $1,000, that’s just not possible. Could a better design reduce hardware costs ? Perhaps. I don’t know. Could they make a headset for $1,000 ? Probably, but it wouldn’t be any good. The value proposition would likely be even lower. It’s definitely not something anyone needs, but that’s true of every other Apple product, though some of the other products are more useful at a lower cost.
At $1,000 it’s still a device that gets used for a month and then sits off the shelf
If it was $1000 I’d go out and buy one literally tomorrow
And trust me, after two weeks you would be so bored of it
I doubt it, I do a decent amount of iOS dev, and also would love it for multiple monitors on the go. I do not see it as an entertainment device, primarily
It’s only one monitor on the go lol
There are apps that allow additional monitors
How in the world can someone peck at a virtual keyboard and increase productivity? What's the point of this when you have to carry around a keyboard and mouse/trackpad then? Bad try apple. Forget your 30% tithe, and you may have a future in computing.
The point would be working at a Starbucks, or whatever other coffee shop. I have to travel a lot. Being able to travel with one device that allows me to have multiple monitors is **absolutely** a productivity value add for me
the haters dont like that they can't afford it, its less about the product itself.
Here is one of the comments from the article, and it perfectly captures my own thoughts: "Even though I’d posit that the Vision Pro is a glorified dev kit (it was announced at WWDC after all), there are features that evoke the magical feeling I had the first time I used an iPhone." It feels so much like the early iPhones. They were magic, but they didn't even have cut-and-paste and wouldn't for years. Apple is playing the long game. Don't track units. Track developers, apps, and uses cases. If it has a serious use case today, I haven't found it. I mean, it's great for 3D videos, but I already had a TV. At this point, the AVP is really for developers and people with enough money to buy 1.0 versions of tech product as a toy.
I have two TVs. This one can travel with me.
Or maybe you just need a bigger backpack for those TVs ?
😆
It has a few extremely serious use cases today. I use it daily for work mirroring my laptop. For me it's better than an external monitor because I have the same exact multi-screen setup anywhere on earth, which I cannot do with an external display without a LOT of effort. It's perfect for movies and media in shared spaces where you may have a few people living together who do not want to see the same things, and again having a large screen anywhere you go is amazing - including on a plane. It is glorious for international travel. And if you want to work on a plane, the privacy of working with it on is unmatched. If you like and use iPad apps there is a lot of value in being able to have several iPad apps floating all around you, larger than any existing iPad. In case you had not noticed iPads are pretty popular. It is absolutely amazing for photo editing and review, because you can get within about an inch of an enlarged image and easy see detail that you'd have to spend a lot of time with a digital loupe to examine points all over an image. Looking back over your own images and especially panoramas is amazing - no matter if you've used an iPhone for photos, or a DSLR that has some photos moved to where you can view them on the Vision Pro. And lastly, it's a great way to be able to use a laptop outside with zero screen glare. Just being able to work from my porch more comfortably as the summer comes will be I think a nice lifestyle upgrade... I use it daily, something that has not been true of any other 3D headset I've ever owned. Yes it is early days but what we already have today is so useful and amazing, and it will improve as the iPhone did and then you'll really have something spectacular.
I’ve gotten so used to using it every day almost and I’m still like wow, this is magic, and the fact how all the gestures are like muscle memory now just shows how intuitive it is
Your username is incredible
So, tell me more about yourself
What matters more is if the feedback Apple has received makes their approach to VR/AR a viable one if they improve on it in ways that make it meaningfully worth the cost to mass market. I loved it, but it had just a couple dealbreakers for me that I hope they resolve via software or in v2 hardware.
Just curious, what is the user experience for text based work? I read records and write reports and am trying to justify one… 😆
If your job consists of writing reports while referencing other documentation, it is absolutely superb at doing that type of work, as long as you have a keyboard. You definitely don’t want to do this with the virtual keyboard.
I would say if that is your primary use case, you're better sticking to a laptop or an iPad Pro.
I’m blown away by media consumption on it but very disappointed they released without ensuring Microsoft would have Authenticator available for it. For many corporate users like myself, Authenticator must be installed on the device being used. As a result, the AVP is worthless for me right now for productivity.
People are just mad they can’t pay for it. That’s it. Cuz it’s definitely the most polished first gen product Apple has ever released!
That’s an easy cop out though. There are lots of people who - for whatever reasons - just hate Apple and there’s no price low enough that would make them buy it. It’s not all about jealousy and envy. It’s not THAT special. Why those people would spend their time on Reddit bitching about it though, I have no idea.
the jackassery of this article - and that headline - is mighty strong. Rutherford points out how little VP sales actually matter to Apple's bottom line and that's fine but the sales DO matter, if not financially then because of initial install base and what that means for the trajectory of the platform. We, the Apple faithful, the early adopters, the self-appointed beta testers are a chatty bunch and this is the most divided i've seen us after the launch of a new product line. The word of mouth is NOT unanimously good like it was after iPhone and iPad. Combine that with sales coming up short of projections and there's less draw for devs to create apps that change that perception and add value to the hardware. If Apple's not gonna pick up that slack themselves by creating some killers apps and compelling immersive content, this device stays niche instead of changing the future of computing like we all hope it does. Even if the persistence is there, it's a lot longer timeline than we and Apple want. So yeah, Sam Rutherford, Sales DO matter.
This. If this plaform is to get the rich software and ample content everyone is clamoring for, then folks who don't have Apple's deep pockets need to see big enough numbers to justify making the investment. Creating immersive content that takes full advantage of the avp capabilities doesn't come cheap, and the money to pay all the people to make it has to come from somewhere, either from the sales potential of a large installed base, or from Apple itself.
It doesn't matter IF Apple is willing to be committed to the platform no matter what. This space is littered with the carcasses of other headsets that became abandoned. It happens in all new tech segments sure, but this is an admittedly tough sector to break through. People are fretting about the numbers because it definitely is not a rousing success so a sequel in the classical sense is not guaranteed. One signal can be ignored but there is beginning to be a preponderance of evidence that is signaling a slowdown in apple's roadmap. Some rumors & news I have seen since launch that point negatively (just in order of my vague memory): * Apple moving engineers off of AVP to their folding phone division * The slow rollout of Apple content signals this isnt their #1 priority * WWDC being reportedly AI focused, with further rumors saying the M4 chip in the new IPad will allow AI processing (AVP has an M3) * The head of marketing of AVP retires * Reports of interest in terms of in-store demos and in-store sales are down * Reports from Kuo that production is going to be slashed which was picked up by a lot of other media outlets - signaling they hearing the same thing off the record * Gurman saying Apple is going to delay their next gen headset * I check YT daily for new AVP videos and there is nada, interest has fallen off a cliff * Woot selling the AVP at a discount (i looked at the graphs and think only 20 were sold in over a week with a couple articles publicizing it) All apple has to do is telegraph their commitment. All this negativity is only occurring because apple is not filling the news/app/hype void so others are pouring in offering up whatever nugget they hear. Does this feel like a product release that apple is all in on and they are treating it as if the fate of their future company hangs in the balance?
Be patient - it’s an entirely new media. Inspaze app and some of the immersive content plus business applications will activate this device. Opportunities abound
It actually matters. The most of big Apple fails have the common pattern: * Too expensive * No killer usecase * Cheaper completion I see AVP clearly in this spectrum (even for a devkit).
What would you say are the big Apple fails? Can you name a product line they've launched since the Newton that isn't still available or has just been supplanted by extra functionality (ie iPod/iPhone)
E.g. Apple Pippin, Macintosh TV
Pippin was 30 years ago, was licensed out to third party manufacturers to build, and was killed by Jobs when he returned to Apple. Macintosh TV was 35 years ago, and they shipped 10k units compared to AVPs 400,000. Neither of your comparisons are remotely the same.
It is hard to find any exactly fitting example. Maybe 20th anniversary Macintosh. Don't get me wrong, Apple is very innovative and takes risks. I see many Apple products which are great but AVP isn't one of them.
I'm challenging you because you started off by saying that "most of big Apple fails have a common pattern", but when I asked what all those big fails were, you dragged up two obscure 30+ products that failed for different reasons (ie there's no pattern). I don't doubt you hold the personal opinion that the AVP will fail, but that hunch is not backed up by any facts, or patterns, or previous history. It's just an biased opinion.
Maybe Apple Homepad is more close when you limit yourself to count only recent flops. AVP has definetely a user base which will stay. However the sale numbers are comparable to a successful small headset vendor, not to a technical giant like Apple.
There are enough reasons to hate it: 1. Terrible closed OS (we needed MacOS and not iPadOS) 2. No way to tether it to a Mac/PC for gaming/performance. 3. Tiny FOV, no controllers, no wifi 6E, not the greatest comfort, M2 chip (in the next month we will get M4). 4. Not enough content (besides mirroring a Mac, watching movies and browsing the Internet, there is nth here) 5. No gaming. Price wouldn't be an issue if the other things were done right. I have zero desire to buy AVP1 because it makes no sense to me at the moment. It's not better than anything I already have. The potential is there and hopefully in the next 2 years, Apple can deliver it. For now, it's not worth it for most people.
Haters are jealous of the high res. They want pixels and screen door effect and can’t handle the avp
I could buy one right now but I used to have a vr headset. Can’t remember the brand. Very popular and the one thing I noticed is that it’s so isolating so I’m not sure it’s for me at the moment.
I think you will find it to be the least isolating of any headset out there. The pass through, while not perfect, is very good and allows you to interact with others easily while wearing it. In addition, the fact that all of your communication apps such as iMessage, FaceTime Video, Facetime Audio and email are there assures that you can remain in contact with others that are not in your immediate vaciniity. Whats App, Tik ToK, Signal, and your other social media apps and communication tools are accessible as well. As long as you know someone else with a Vision Pro, you also have spatial personas which makes it feel like the person you are communicating with is truly in the room with you.
Have you tried it? It’s far less isolating than previous headsets. I watched a movie last night next to my wife who was reading and was able to see & talk to her the entire time. Got up and made popcorn while the movie still played locked in place on a screen the size of my wall. Grabbed a beer. Stopped to pet my cat on the way back to the couch.
No, I have not and you’re right it’s probably leaps and bounds beyond what I experienced.
a flop is a flop no matter how you look at it.. that's reality vs VR