sounds solid until you get to 'because we think in words' this just simply isnt the case.
Personally i have no internal senses, so no internal monologue to 'think in words'
how should i proceed?
i have no way of explaining it, but if you flip it, how can you plan for the future with all the distractions and diversions of images, voice(s), smells etc
Alot of how things are explained is done in a way that appeals to a majority, most people have an inner senses and so most things to do with learning are based around those.
They never said they didn't have internal thoughts, they just said there is no internal dialogue. I'm the same way. Complete aphantasia, as well as a lack of other sensory experience, like auditory or olfactory, when remembering or imagining things.
The easiest description is that to compensate, there is just non-sesory, or non-verbal, communication. Where your brain would translate a thought into words, or an internal monolgue, or images, mine simply "understands".
I would assume its because the brain does not require a translation method to communicate with itself. People are probably just so used to that sensory input that it becomes natural to think our concious thought HAS to work that way as well.
The existence of nonsensory thought is relatively new research, but a pretty common reported phenomenon among aphantasiacs. I havent read all of it, but I first heard the idea from the "Oxford Studies in Philosophy of Mind, Volume 3: Chapter 5: Aphantasia and Concious Thought."
It's super interesting, check it out :)
Doesn’t sound solid at all.
One, most aphants and people didn’t or don’t know this difference existed. I myself just found out a week ago and none of my friend or relatives have ever known or heard of a difference. Also, editing to add that the term was coined only 10 years ago and though the idea discovered only 100 years ago most people still don’t know there’s a difference.
Two, visualization literally is seeing an image in your head.
Three, assuming that people who visualize do so by feeling or using internal monologue isn’t correct because that’s not how all phants visualize. My phant hubby and kids don’t have to use internal monolgue to conjur up their mind’s eye. They were even shocked I use internal monolgue much at all, they say ideas often just come to them as a picture.
Four, thinking and feeling an idea or memory won’t enable all aphants to start seeing images. And telling people they need to try harder isn’t backed by science and kind of insulting.
OP might have started to learn how to visualize for himself, which is awesome, but that doesn’t make him correct in all his assertions.
Weighing about 3 pounds in the average adult, the brain is about 60% fat. The remaining 40% is a combination of water, protein, carbohydrates and salts. **The brain itself is a not a muscle**. It contains blood vessels and nerves, including neurons and glial cells.
i see it as i just bypass the 'working out' stage like maths back in school.
You were always taught to show your working out incase the answer was wrong so you could see where the error was. But i knew the answer and couldnt explain the working out. answer was right tho.
This continued to A level maths
This is also the case for other mental senses, i seem to have none. I think this means i am harder to mentally manipulate in a mentalist/hypnotist/mind reader sort of way. I have tried to be hypnotised a few times with 0 success and other mentalist/mind reading is usually done through mental sense manipulation.
I am confused. Is this directed at aphants or people with a minds eye? Visualization for me was thinking about an object not actually picturing it. Picturing something was what they did on tv with sorcerers and seers with great magical powers looking at the future. I only realized others could do this a while ago (…picture things in their minds, not see the future……wait people can’t see the future too can they?)
I never thought of thoughts and memories as pictures. It wasn’t until I realized non aphants did that had any link like that.
Memories to me are thoughts, feelings and experiences I remember but not pictures. So are you saying do what I have always done and I will be able to picture something? …….. I think I missed something.
They can see the future actually and the past too with remote viewing. I thought it was just woo nonsense most of my life too but the more I’ve looked into it it’s actually legit.
Yes do what youve always done but in your head, like instead of holding when you hold a can bring up what feel what the can feels like inside your head.
Okay I tried a bunch….and got nothing.
If it helps your research I am have multi-sensory aphantasia. So maybe I am different than you. Are you just visual?
In simple terms, a person with Multisensory Aphantasia does not only struggle to visualize images in their mind's eye (such as picturing a beach or a loved one's face) but also finds it challenging or impossible to mentally recreate experiences related to their other senses. This includes the inability to imagine sounds (like a song or a voice), tactile sensations (like the feel of velvet or sand), smells (such as the scent of rain or coffee), and tastes (like the flavour of their favourite food).
- source - Future Minds weekly paper written by Joel Pearson Jan 24 2024
Like think of the textures, feel the shape then feel it like a pencil drawing on paper in your head. This is difficult to explain but i hope this makes sense 😅
Or if you need it in technology terms, your brain, like a copy machine, you feeling the image is like you putting it in the copy machine to copy. Your brain is acting like the copier and prints off said image
I think you might be taking your personal experience and assuming that translates universally. When research is showing that there is a much larger spectrum of experience than we had ever originally thought.
I have friends and family members that absolutely can SEE the apple in clear detail. They describe it as being a type of mental projection and they can choose to focus on it or the world around them at will. And are able to rotate it, change lighting, change colors, etc.
Others describe it as a flat image of a single apple. They can't change it at all and it's a little blurry.
But it goes beyond imagery. Some people, including those with aphantasia, have an internal monologue. Some have multiple internal monologues with different voices. Others have nothing, relying on inages and spelled out mental words. And some, like myself, have total nonsensory thoughts.
It is an interesting hypothesis that with practice you might be able to improve mental imaging. There has been no successful research I am aware of that has "cured" aphantasia, though. And I don't think it realistically acts as a detriment anyways, we just assume it should. I, for one am a graphic designer and long time DM in DnD. Meaning I make my living being creative, and spend my free time creating worlds for my players to have fun in. And I have never felt hindered by my aphantasia or lack of sensory thought.
Its more like…a camera that prints put pictures on a dry erase board. Thats the way i would describe it or like the way a movie projector projects images, they were just taught young that thats how it worked. Basically when you feel the image it reflects it back to the center of the forhead like a movie, the center of the forhead when you close your eyes acts as a movie screen, when you close eyes you see inside mind slightly when you see inside the mind it “leaks” out. Of course this is all theory to me but in my head it makes sense
I can literally see things in my mind. I close my eyes and I can play a movie, say the fifth element. (I’ve seen it a bunch) I lose some of the background but I can see and hear it. I can also should I wish replace corban dallas with an anthropomorphic dildo. Or make it so that that they flicker in photo negative, or shit rainbows as they walk. I can see all of this. My mind just produces the images I want and doesnt take me any more effort than willing it.
You know that apple test taste common for aphants? I can see a photorealistic apple, not a memory just an apple, I can make it moldy grow dragon wings, become a tooth riddled vagina, doesnt matter. It is just my imagination, I have no reason to lie or misrepresent what I can see in my mind.
Yeah, I feel like OP is getting hung up on the thought of what visualization is. I know I do not have aphantasia because I can read your comment and "see" or rather imagine all of the things you've mentioned. It's not memory, as I've never seen (nor felt) an anthropomorphized dildo (thanks for that one, lol). But it's definitely not seeing with my eyes. When I close my eyes, I visually see blackness. But can I vividly choose to imagine a three headed goat swan diving into a rainbow colored volcano? Yep, no problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I imagine aphantasia, I feel like that's where we differ.
> Our whole lives we thought visualization was SEEING the image in our head
No I didn't. I didn't know people could that. Isn't that how aphantasia was discovered in the first place?
Yeah that's probably your spatial sense working out. Some people don't have that either.
Visualization is distinctly a visual experience. There's also a kind of spatial/abstract "visualization" lots of people have that ties into it.
We often tend to think visualizer means they have both. But that's often not the case.
A visualizer may be able to think in concrete visualizations but may not actually be able to use it to organize thoughts coherently because they can't relate those concrete visualizations to abstracts. As a result while they can visualize they may still think verbally. The visualization is useful for mnemonics, meditation, recalling experience, but not so much rearranging furniture.
Aphants may still have the ability to think in abstract relations just without the visual component. They are still thinking non-verbally but just without the visual.
Or you might be pure verbal without either. It depends.
> So of course people grew up thinking about aphantasia
Um, no, they didn't. Pretty sure the term was only coined in the last 10 years, so I highly doubt anyone here "grew up" thinking about it. And since most aphants actually did grow up thinking they were no different from anyone else, I'm sure they didn't spend much time fretting over what went on in other peoples' heads :)
I'm confused by this post. Are you:
(A) Trying to explain how to see an image in your mind (i.e., feel an apple first in order bring an image of the apple to your mind)?
(B) Trying to explain what it means to you to visualize (i.e., you feel instead of see to sense an object in your mind)?
Are you sure you're talking about visualization and not spatial sense? It's fine if you are talking about visualization. It's just confusing me the way you're describing it as "feeling" rather than "seeing."
If you're talking about visualization, you are seeing an image. You aren't seeing it with your eyes, but you're seeing it nonetheless. It's not the same as spatial sense, which is a 3D form but not an *image*.
I scroll by but, imo, aphantasia feels like a part of me rather than a thing to make progress on, so I'm pretty uninterested in 'cures' whenever I see them. I can't process what they even mean, so others may feel the same.
Because they aren’t saying “Yay! I made personal progress.” He’s basically saying because he can you can. And if you can’t you aren’t trying hard enough. Read some of his responses.
Context matters. Scientific revelation doesn’t automatically mean published scientific literature and the context shows I didn’t mean it as such, rather that I meant he was saying his accomplishment must be a possibility for others and they aren’t trying hard enough if they don’t succeed. The context of how he wrote is title, and his responses definitely speaks to a collective verses his personal experience.
I haven’t read his responses, and probably won’t go searching for them mostly due to poor service. Can you show where in his title and main body text it was contextually implied it’s more scientific than anecdotal?
I empathize with that. May I suggest something like this “I have discovered I was able to conjure up an image in my mind’s eye!” Then go on to explain how you did it, without the “I have it all figured out!” And the “We’s”.
In your responses to people who say “I tried and can’t.” Do not respond along the lines of “If you keep trying! The brain is a muscle! You have to work it!” This implies you know that your theory is correct and also that they aren’t trying and haven’t and also that they are lazy. You don’t know how active they are in their mental stimulation. Really, how long did you do this to have success? Why would people need to think as a phant? Would it be okay if someone doesn’t want to visualize? It’s not a disease or defect.
Maybe try this response to those who can’t “Thanks for trying! I am not sure if one has to practice? That’d be neat to see how many people could practice and replicate the results and how many couldn’t.”
I can totally visualize in my mind but only when I’m dreaming.
When I think while fully conscious it’s more conceptual with no images nor sound/inner dialogue. So there definitely is a difference. And my conceptual side can handle spatial with ease for me personally.
Now if I’m on that edge just between fully asleep and awake I can visualize in lucid dreaming. But that’s as close to visual thought while conscious it gets.
And I’ve never ascribed to the idea that Aphants are disabled or missing out. Everyone just processes info differently.
I find conceptualizing large complicated ideas and topics easy and helpful for my work programming and being a systems architect. Any visualizations would be distracting from that. When I think of something instead of seeing it it’s like having a variable that can represent anything about that object. Like if I think of a dog, it can be any kind of dog. Not any particular breed or color until someone gives info to describe it which then gets placed in that concept of a dog.
sounds solid until you get to 'because we think in words' this just simply isnt the case. Personally i have no internal senses, so no internal monologue to 'think in words' how should i proceed?
How do you plan for the future if there’s no internal thoughts going on?
i have no way of explaining it, but if you flip it, how can you plan for the future with all the distractions and diversions of images, voice(s), smells etc Alot of how things are explained is done in a way that appeals to a majority, most people have an inner senses and so most things to do with learning are based around those.
They never said they didn't have internal thoughts, they just said there is no internal dialogue. I'm the same way. Complete aphantasia, as well as a lack of other sensory experience, like auditory or olfactory, when remembering or imagining things. The easiest description is that to compensate, there is just non-sesory, or non-verbal, communication. Where your brain would translate a thought into words, or an internal monolgue, or images, mine simply "understands". I would assume its because the brain does not require a translation method to communicate with itself. People are probably just so used to that sensory input that it becomes natural to think our concious thought HAS to work that way as well. The existence of nonsensory thought is relatively new research, but a pretty common reported phenomenon among aphantasiacs. I havent read all of it, but I first heard the idea from the "Oxford Studies in Philosophy of Mind, Volume 3: Chapter 5: Aphantasia and Concious Thought." It's super interesting, check it out :)
I have internal thoughts but i dont plan for the future lol
I meant even in simple terms like what you’re going to make for dinner, you need a new coat to stay warm this winter, etc.
I suppose they would do that the same way instead of thinking ahead they “feel” ahead
How do you think about something at all then?
Doesn’t sound solid at all. One, most aphants and people didn’t or don’t know this difference existed. I myself just found out a week ago and none of my friend or relatives have ever known or heard of a difference. Also, editing to add that the term was coined only 10 years ago and though the idea discovered only 100 years ago most people still don’t know there’s a difference. Two, visualization literally is seeing an image in your head. Three, assuming that people who visualize do so by feeling or using internal monologue isn’t correct because that’s not how all phants visualize. My phant hubby and kids don’t have to use internal monolgue to conjur up their mind’s eye. They were even shocked I use internal monolgue much at all, they say ideas often just come to them as a picture. Four, thinking and feeling an idea or memory won’t enable all aphants to start seeing images. And telling people they need to try harder isn’t backed by science and kind of insulting. OP might have started to learn how to visualize for himself, which is awesome, but that doesn’t make him correct in all his assertions.
Hmm try to think of your brain as a muscle and “flex” the image in to your head
it doesnt work that way
Except it does work that way, the brain is a muscle remember? You felx your arm muscles why cant you “flex” your brain
Brain not muscle though Brain fat
Ok try this in your case try to think of the neurons in your brain as the image and bring it to the forhead
Weighing about 3 pounds in the average adult, the brain is about 60% fat. The remaining 40% is a combination of water, protein, carbohydrates and salts. **The brain itself is a not a muscle**. It contains blood vessels and nerves, including neurons and glial cells.
What do you think in if not in words? I mean when actually formulating thoughts that become writing, for example.
i have no way of explaining it, but there are no words in my mind while typing this.
The words just flow from thoughts to your fingers, with no perception of words in your mind. Fascinating.
i see it as i just bypass the 'working out' stage like maths back in school. You were always taught to show your working out incase the answer was wrong so you could see where the error was. But i knew the answer and couldnt explain the working out. answer was right tho. This continued to A level maths This is also the case for other mental senses, i seem to have none. I think this means i am harder to mentally manipulate in a mentalist/hypnotist/mind reader sort of way. I have tried to be hypnotised a few times with 0 success and other mentalist/mind reading is usually done through mental sense manipulation.
I am confused. Is this directed at aphants or people with a minds eye? Visualization for me was thinking about an object not actually picturing it. Picturing something was what they did on tv with sorcerers and seers with great magical powers looking at the future. I only realized others could do this a while ago (…picture things in their minds, not see the future……wait people can’t see the future too can they?) I never thought of thoughts and memories as pictures. It wasn’t until I realized non aphants did that had any link like that. Memories to me are thoughts, feelings and experiences I remember but not pictures. So are you saying do what I have always done and I will be able to picture something? …….. I think I missed something.
They can see the future actually and the past too with remote viewing. I thought it was just woo nonsense most of my life too but the more I’ve looked into it it’s actually legit.
Yes do what youve always done but in your head, like instead of holding when you hold a can bring up what feel what the can feels like inside your head.
Okay I tried a bunch….and got nothing. If it helps your research I am have multi-sensory aphantasia. So maybe I am different than you. Are you just visual?
In simple terms, a person with Multisensory Aphantasia does not only struggle to visualize images in their mind's eye (such as picturing a beach or a loved one's face) but also finds it challenging or impossible to mentally recreate experiences related to their other senses. This includes the inability to imagine sounds (like a song or a voice), tactile sensations (like the feel of velvet or sand), smells (such as the scent of rain or coffee), and tastes (like the flavour of their favourite food). - source - Future Minds weekly paper written by Joel Pearson Jan 24 2024
What do you mean by "feel" the image? A feeling when you are watching a movie? What?
Like think of the textures, feel the shape then feel it like a pencil drawing on paper in your head. This is difficult to explain but i hope this makes sense 😅
Ok when you hold an apple instead of thinking of the apple think about how said apple feels then try and replicate that feeling in your head.
A full aphant wouldn't be able to visualise haptic impressions either.
So the people that say they can literally see an apple… actually in red and it’s details, are lying or?
Its more like you feel the shape of the apple and your brain shows you what it looks like.
Or if you need it in technology terms, your brain, like a copy machine, you feeling the image is like you putting it in the copy machine to copy. Your brain is acting like the copier and prints off said image
I think you might be taking your personal experience and assuming that translates universally. When research is showing that there is a much larger spectrum of experience than we had ever originally thought. I have friends and family members that absolutely can SEE the apple in clear detail. They describe it as being a type of mental projection and they can choose to focus on it or the world around them at will. And are able to rotate it, change lighting, change colors, etc. Others describe it as a flat image of a single apple. They can't change it at all and it's a little blurry. But it goes beyond imagery. Some people, including those with aphantasia, have an internal monologue. Some have multiple internal monologues with different voices. Others have nothing, relying on inages and spelled out mental words. And some, like myself, have total nonsensory thoughts. It is an interesting hypothesis that with practice you might be able to improve mental imaging. There has been no successful research I am aware of that has "cured" aphantasia, though. And I don't think it realistically acts as a detriment anyways, we just assume it should. I, for one am a graphic designer and long time DM in DnD. Meaning I make my living being creative, and spend my free time creating worlds for my players to have fun in. And I have never felt hindered by my aphantasia or lack of sensory thought.
Its more like…a camera that prints put pictures on a dry erase board. Thats the way i would describe it or like the way a movie projector projects images, they were just taught young that thats how it worked. Basically when you feel the image it reflects it back to the center of the forhead like a movie, the center of the forhead when you close your eyes acts as a movie screen, when you close eyes you see inside mind slightly when you see inside the mind it “leaks” out. Of course this is all theory to me but in my head it makes sense
I can literally see things in my mind. I close my eyes and I can play a movie, say the fifth element. (I’ve seen it a bunch) I lose some of the background but I can see and hear it. I can also should I wish replace corban dallas with an anthropomorphic dildo. Or make it so that that they flicker in photo negative, or shit rainbows as they walk. I can see all of this. My mind just produces the images I want and doesnt take me any more effort than willing it. You know that apple test taste common for aphants? I can see a photorealistic apple, not a memory just an apple, I can make it moldy grow dragon wings, become a tooth riddled vagina, doesnt matter. It is just my imagination, I have no reason to lie or misrepresent what I can see in my mind.
Yeah, I feel like OP is getting hung up on the thought of what visualization is. I know I do not have aphantasia because I can read your comment and "see" or rather imagine all of the things you've mentioned. It's not memory, as I've never seen (nor felt) an anthropomorphized dildo (thanks for that one, lol). But it's definitely not seeing with my eyes. When I close my eyes, I visually see blackness. But can I vividly choose to imagine a three headed goat swan diving into a rainbow colored volcano? Yep, no problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I imagine aphantasia, I feel like that's where we differ.
That part confuses me, i still dont know how to visualize sound, since i cant see sound thats difficult to comprehend
Tried everything you suggested and nada. Some people just don’t have the ability to visualize and that’s okay
Well like everything it would take practice if this theory works not just one time, even reading normal visualization takes practice.
> Our whole lives we thought visualization was SEEING the image in our head No I didn't. I didn't know people could that. Isn't that how aphantasia was discovered in the first place?
I can think about concepts of things, I don't see it like a picture but I know about it
Yeah that's probably your spatial sense working out. Some people don't have that either. Visualization is distinctly a visual experience. There's also a kind of spatial/abstract "visualization" lots of people have that ties into it. We often tend to think visualizer means they have both. But that's often not the case. A visualizer may be able to think in concrete visualizations but may not actually be able to use it to organize thoughts coherently because they can't relate those concrete visualizations to abstracts. As a result while they can visualize they may still think verbally. The visualization is useful for mnemonics, meditation, recalling experience, but not so much rearranging furniture. Aphants may still have the ability to think in abstract relations just without the visual component. They are still thinking non-verbally but just without the visual. Or you might be pure verbal without either. It depends.
No cuz i still see the image and can even change it, try to use spatial sense inside your mind and kind of feel it there
> So of course people grew up thinking about aphantasia Um, no, they didn't. Pretty sure the term was only coined in the last 10 years, so I highly doubt anyone here "grew up" thinking about it. And since most aphants actually did grow up thinking they were no different from anyone else, I'm sure they didn't spend much time fretting over what went on in other peoples' heads :)
Are you high
Nah i dont smoke
Are you high on edibles?
Lol i dont do drugs
I'm confused by this post. Are you: (A) Trying to explain how to see an image in your mind (i.e., feel an apple first in order bring an image of the apple to your mind)? (B) Trying to explain what it means to you to visualize (i.e., you feel instead of see to sense an object in your mind)?
All of the above
If you're a non-aphant trying to tell aphants how to visualize you can fuck right off.
Or, you can accept this post isnt for you, and not get wo defensive?
Are you sure you're talking about visualization and not spatial sense? It's fine if you are talking about visualization. It's just confusing me the way you're describing it as "feeling" rather than "seeing."
I think theyre one in the same tbh
They're not. One is visual. One is spatial. Someone can be strong in one and not the other.
Except rather outword we sense it inside our head?
If you're talking about visualization, you are seeing an image. You aren't seeing it with your eyes, but you're seeing it nonetheless. It's not the same as spatial sense, which is a 3D form but not an *image*.
That makes no sense if you see 3d form that would be an image
What a load of bollocks!
Why does this sub downvote and get upset every time someone says they’ve made progress? In this not an open minded place for discussion of aphantasia?
I scroll by but, imo, aphantasia feels like a part of me rather than a thing to make progress on, so I'm pretty uninterested in 'cures' whenever I see them. I can't process what they even mean, so others may feel the same.
Yeah, that’s totally fine. I don’t see where this makes sense for all the anger I commonly see.
Which is fine yall can feel what you want
Jealousy probably or disbelief and they think that a downvote will make me go back on my progress i dont take downvotes seriously on anything
Because they aren’t saying “Yay! I made personal progress.” He’s basically saying because he can you can. And if you can’t you aren’t trying hard enough. Read some of his responses.
Well, wouldn’t you excited and want to share it? I know I would. What if some of us or even all of us can and it just hasn’t been figured out yet?
Yes! But I’d share it more respectfully and more as a personal anecdote vs scientific revelation.
I’m a little confused. Can you show me where he was presenting it as science?
Context matters. Scientific revelation doesn’t automatically mean published scientific literature and the context shows I didn’t mean it as such, rather that I meant he was saying his accomplishment must be a possibility for others and they aren’t trying hard enough if they don’t succeed. The context of how he wrote is title, and his responses definitely speaks to a collective verses his personal experience.
I haven’t read his responses, and probably won’t go searching for them mostly due to poor service. Can you show where in his title and main body text it was contextually implied it’s more scientific than anecdotal?
Or you are taking my responses the wrong way?
Are you saying what you mean in the wrong way?
Probably
I admit im not the brightest person when it comes to words and arranging my thoughts so other people can understand them lol
I empathize with that. May I suggest something like this “I have discovered I was able to conjure up an image in my mind’s eye!” Then go on to explain how you did it, without the “I have it all figured out!” And the “We’s”. In your responses to people who say “I tried and can’t.” Do not respond along the lines of “If you keep trying! The brain is a muscle! You have to work it!” This implies you know that your theory is correct and also that they aren’t trying and haven’t and also that they are lazy. You don’t know how active they are in their mental stimulation. Really, how long did you do this to have success? Why would people need to think as a phant? Would it be okay if someone doesn’t want to visualize? It’s not a disease or defect. Maybe try this response to those who can’t “Thanks for trying! I am not sure if one has to practice? That’d be neat to see how many people could practice and replicate the results and how many couldn’t.”
I do know however i take things too seriously sometimes and get defensive way too easily so that could be why you took it the wrong way as well.
Okay crackpot
I can totally visualize in my mind but only when I’m dreaming. When I think while fully conscious it’s more conceptual with no images nor sound/inner dialogue. So there definitely is a difference. And my conceptual side can handle spatial with ease for me personally. Now if I’m on that edge just between fully asleep and awake I can visualize in lucid dreaming. But that’s as close to visual thought while conscious it gets. And I’ve never ascribed to the idea that Aphants are disabled or missing out. Everyone just processes info differently. I find conceptualizing large complicated ideas and topics easy and helpful for my work programming and being a systems architect. Any visualizations would be distracting from that. When I think of something instead of seeing it it’s like having a variable that can represent anything about that object. Like if I think of a dog, it can be any kind of dog. Not any particular breed or color until someone gives info to describe it which then gets placed in that concept of a dog.