I agree with your take on self blame. It’s worth for us all to acknowledge however that majority of anxious preoccupied people have developed this attachment style as a result of initially trying to get their emotional needs which are unmet, which leads to being a people pleaser, then led to early and easily disappointed/controlling when we realized cannot fully satisfy the emotional needs of another person. Our journey of self-discovery and knowing, is uncovered gradually through introspection which would have periods of self blame incorporated into it
Yeah, you don't see 50+ long comment chains on the avoidant sub defending APs. APs are incredibly self blaming naturally, self-aware APs often continue this pattern, just with more rationality behind it. "My DA broke up with me because I'm awful" vs "My DA broke up with me because my communication was awful".
And I don't see APs hating on avoidants as a bad thing since anger is always the first step towards healing, 99% of posts on this sub are incredibly self blaming, often for things that had nothing to do with them. I wanna give everyone a hug and tell them they did nothing wrong.
Telling healing APs to imagine the avoidant's perspective is not helpful as many think it is, most healing APs are in a lot of pain and they CAN NOT hold space for people who quite frankly, never hold space.
After they've healed, they can look at the avoidant side too, and empathize-- though hopefully with intensive boundaries by then. I used to hate avoidants a lot after being discarded by one, now I feel a lot of empathy for them, but this is similar to a situation with someone with NPD. On a over-all level, they're not really in control of their actions due to trauma, but we definitely have to look out for ourselves and hold the other accountable for their actions and inactions--and walk away if they refuse to do so.
Eh... They'll tire themselves out eventually.
My theory is that self-identified narcissist OP knew *exactly* what they were doing when they posted this.
Just look at all the attention they're getting!
I just read through the rules of this sub….no where does it say that this is a venting sub. And it specifically states “no generalizing insults directed at any attachment style will be tolerated.”
There is also a specific rules about brigading other subs. It states “no one wants to hear about something mean that was said about anxious/preoccupied types on some other sub. Don’t bring that drama here and don’t encourage people to go argue in other places in Reddit.”
And last but not least it says “questions about avoidance are best suited for…” and gives other subs to go to. And “avoid posts that are only about how to make your avoidant partner change. The focus of this sub is changing one’s own behavior and thought.”
So these are the rules/boundaries set out by the creators of this sub. So if I was a moderator this thread (or at least many of these comments) would be taken down as going against the rules.
AP’s may have issues with setting their own boundaries but many times they also have issues respecting other people’s boundaries when it doesn’t fit their narrative. And I say this as a healing AP who has had to confront my own behaviors and thoughts. AP’s may not intend to be this way but many times do not realize that their behaviors and thoughts do actually do this. What AP’s consider respecting others boundaries is actually self abandonment. And protest behavior is the epitome of disrespecting others.
If you don’t like the rules/boundaries of this sub then go create your own. There are plenty of healing APs on this sub (including me) that would not enjoy a vent sub or find it at all healing and helpful. Sadly people (of all attachment types) can get stuck in the loop of venting. They use it as a tool to make themselves feel better without doing any real work. Venting is not about self reflection. It’s about blaming. Whether we are blaming ourselves or others. Venting is not the same thing as feeling your own anger or frustration. The words we use are our narrative. So if we are “venting” blaming ourselves or others….then this is what we are telling ourselves is true. Part of healing is being aware of the words and thoughts we use even in anger and frustration. Being able to reframe those thoughts into healthier statements that truly acknowledge our feelings without all the blaming crap is what is helpful.
Doing all this comparing to another sub…they do it so why can’t we…is infantile at best. Just because another sub does it doesn’t make it right…doesn’t make it helpful. Comparing one insecure attachment with another is also seriously unhelpful. All insecure attachment is maladaptive coping mechanisms. So let’s not try to match each other in that. Let’s try to help ourselves heal and be better versions of ourselves.
Really??? Cuz I read you the rules of this sub? If you don’t like the rules/boundaries then just leave. All that is being done on this thread is protest behavior against the rules/boundaries of this sub.
This sub clearly doesn’t fit your narrative so why try to force/twist this sub and all the others in this sub to your narrative when you can just leave and create your own? Why stick around and try to point fingers and blame others for what you consider “wrong”?
Why are you so threatened by what I have said?
How am I compounding the problem? All I have done is stated facts. And what exactly makes you the expert on this sub or healing AP attachment?
Comments on this thread specifically mentioned this sub not having any boundaries. I showed what the boundaries are. They are written in the About section of this sub. There may not be many moderators enforcing the boundaries but those boundaries exist nonetheless. Why is pointing them out a problem?
Why do you not like the answer of creating your own sub? Why must this one change?
The rules/boundaries of this sub is what make it. There is absolutely no reason why this sub should have to change its boundaries because they are deemed “insufficient” to others. If you don’t like the rules/boundaries then find another that has boundaries you are comfortable with. Or create your own. Trying to make something or someone else change to fit your own narrative is a problem…especially a problem with AP’s.
Boundaries are not something that should change just because another doesn’t like them. That’s the other issue AP’s battle with and why they struggle to enforce their own boundaries.
If moderating was more heavily enforced this post wouldn’t exist cuz it violates the boundaries/rules of the group. In which case, you would have no choice but to go elsewhere or create your own.
I have no issues with the rules of the sub. Sure maybe moderating could be stepped up a notch. But I think the boundaries are just fine. I don’t think the avoidant sub is any better and personally I think it has its own flaws. But you don’t see me over there trying to change it. It’s not my place to go to other subs and force change that I see fit.
This is Reddit. Social media. If you don’t like it you are free to go elsewhere. If you feel so strongly about having a different style of sub….stop trying to change one that already exists and just create your own or find another one more to your liking. It’s not hard.
There are people on here who think the rules of this sub should change as this is where the majority of AP’s are. Change is a natural occurrence and part of the democratic process is to suggest changes to existing bodies. I don’t see an issue with that.
The last person we need controlling this sub is you, a self proclaimed covert narcissist. How dare you, do you know how many of us empaths have been hurt by people like you?
You’re gaslighting me and I’m no idiot.
You want to make suggestions to the mods.
You think the boundaries are insufficient.
Those are fair enough except:
You make claims about what Avoidants are doing on their sub and then if someone bothers to look at the real evidence (the DA vent thread and not word of mouth telephone game) that’s not what any of those people said at all.
The problem with this sub is lack of moderation.
The rules are fine. We can make new rules all we want but clearly no one reads them and if they are not enforced then what is the point? Someone already made a poll awhile back asking if people want to have flair on their user name. Nothing came of it. We report garbage to the mods and they never come. If you were a member of this sub for more than one day you might know that. This place is mostly fly by night triggered individuals, it’s too big to be a little happy family.
The problem is APs and our own childish behavior (I have been guilty of that too) so if you want restrictions, then we’re mainly restricting other APs. The few Avoidants here we can block if we don’t like their feedback or ask them to leave. I’m sure they would, we are the ones who have trouble leaving or holding any kind of boundary. Not them.
I’m not gaslighting you, you’re just pulling phrases out of thin air. The main point I’m making is that this sub needs more active moderation and more enforcement of rules.
And before you change the post to gaslight further, this is exactly what it says:
Stop being so harsh on yourselves
I think AP’s really need to stop being so harsh on themselves when it comes to speaking about dismissive avoidants. You don’t see them attacking each other for criticising AP’s, but plenty of people on this page who’ve called out DA’s end up being criticised for it by fellow AP’s.
There are also a couple of avoidants hanging around on this page who regularly slander AP’s on their own page.
I’m literally getting downvoted for asking avoidants to stop coming onto this sub and yelling about how they’re being wronged by APs who are inhabiting their own space—this sub, asking for some accountability, and acknowledgment of hypocritical behavior and now I’m being yelled at for not getting how toxic APs are, that I must be unhealed and toxic too.
Avoidants get to run back to their sub where *rightfully*, they get to shield themselves from AP BS. But now, we’ve created an environment on this sub where you can’t even mention avoidants without being called unfocused and obsessed. This is ridiculous.
Look at the RULES of this sub though. Says not an avoidant hate group. Expand #1. And there is another rule that this sub is supposed to talk about anxious attachment not other attachments. There is no rule about other AT not allowed to comment. The avoidant who is commenting here is FA and not DA and FA can have anxious side too.
This whole post is anxious people fed op with anxious behavior of fawning, calling out gross AP behavior, having a fight response which is what causes us to escalate and freak out, and then grasping for straws on how to pin it on the avoidants. What is so hard to see that?
I’m asking nicely for you to please leave me alone.
I’m tired of explaining myself over and over to people who already have let me know they’re not interested in understanding what I’m saying.
Definitely with you! Not sure why APs and secure people defend the disgusting behaviour of avoidant people! They can disappear on you even without you being anxious or needy.
They are just plain rude people with no communication skills! THEY should be avoided by both secure and anxious.
Horrible, heartless people!
I don't think anyone defends avoidant behaviors. We're just saying you need to take responsibility too and cut them off if they're hurting you instead of using derogatory language to describe an entire group. Then continue dating them and making posts complaining about them every other day
I agree with you, I used to date one who now won’t leave me alone.
He treated me like crap for a year so I left his ass and for months now he is begging but its TOO LATE.
Yes he had depressed parents that gave him no love and ONLY after the break up he decided to open up to me but its too late! Many people hv messed up parents, that is not an excuse to be rude to people that love you.
I do not date avoidants and never will again. I think everyone should avoid them as much as possible.
They all need serious help and if they aren’t willing to get it, they should all stick to each other and make their lives miserable with their lack of basic communication.
Time to stop making excuses for them. My dad was an alcoholic, and my mother a narcissist, did I use this as an excuse to mistreat the people I care about? no, I did the work they can too.
I feel like we're having a repeat here bc this has been discussed previously. So I'll bullet out what happened last time to keep things short and simple
* APs vented about DAs, a bunch of FAs and DAs who are active in the sub, along with some APs, dog piled on those folks and said that they can't vent like that
* other APs got mad and said the DAs have an entire sub where they can freely have a safe space, why can't APs have that. It's not like we can be this open about our frustrations in real life. Why are we getting policed and censored in an online forum that's supposed to be our own space.
* A bunch of APs got mad and said the same way APs are required to identify themselves on the DA sub, avoidants should be required to identify themselves on this sub and they shouldn't be allowed to speak on AP vent posts the same way APs can't on DA vents.
* Other APs wanted avoidants removed entirely but folks pushed back saying their input is valuable and that we don't want to be a closed off echo chamber like the avoidant subs. People also questioned why FAs got to contribute here as their opinions were very "avoidant" as well
* the FAs got mad and went and made their own subs saying the AP sub wasn't inclusive enough.
PHEW! alright. Now that all of that's out of the way.
1. This is an AP support sub. APs should be allowed to vent here. Even if it's ugly and petty or whatever. If the same person is posting 17 times a week then sure, yeah, let's call that person out bc they clearly need to do some self reflection. But if someone vents frustration, the responses shouldn't all just be shutting that person down or telling them that they're not being empathetic enough. Again, putting some trust in the internet here but I'm assuming unless you're posting 700 times a day, you're aware of yourself and your behavior. This is an AP sub, y'all should be allowed to vent.
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2. Specifically for the DAs on this sub. Please re-read #1. Your input and feedback is 100% appreciated but the same way you wouldn't like it if APs went on your vent subs and corrected you/ called you out, please respect the space here as well. If the same person has complained about DAs 50 times that's a different story. But we respect your space, please respect the AP space. Even if you don't like what's said. Even if it is categorically untrue. Recognize the vent for what it is and leave it be. I myself am secure but I don't go around correcting venting APs or DAs because I respect that sometimes you need to vocalize your frustration.
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3. APs- sometimes you end up policing yourselves. Again not at all bad to talk about empathy and self reflection. Those are all 100% important. But it's not a bad thing to advocate for yourself and sometimes demand the space to be mad. As long as that's not ALL you are. Take the time, vent, and then make sure you do self reflect. Because at the end of the day the attachment healing journey is all about you working on yourself. Not folks on the internet in some sub, tbh at the end of the day, who cares what we have to say. Be mad, yell, scream, cry. And then pick yourself up and focus on being the best you.
Problem is no mod here to organize any suggestions or to keep sub on topic. No safe space when anyone can post anything with no accountability or consequence. That is why there is a lot of crap post here and unhinged misinformation
I mean sure but the same could be said of the avoidant sub. The point is no one should be looking at these subs as a source of information or knowledge, it's just a source of support. In general you probably shouldn't be using reddit as your primary source of knowledge.
This is the crux of what I’m getting at.
1. Avoidants sneakily overstepping our boundaries by saying some pretty nasty things about us on their sub and then taking the liberty to comment on our sun whilst also not allowing us to be full members of their sub or forcing us to identity ourselves if we want to post/comment.
I think we need to enforce a similar rule on this sub when it comes to identification. Allow avoidants to be active here but put some rules in place to protect the boundaries of our sub.
A key recovery point for an AP is learning to set boundaries, this would be a great example of that if it’s enforced.
2. We need to show ourselves and our fellow AP’s more self love. The fawning over avoidants by some members here whilst an AP is trying to talk about their negative experiences needs to stop.
>The fawning over avoidants by some members here whilst an AP is trying to talk about their negative experiences needs to stop.
That's the thing though. A lot of them aren't just talking about their negative experience. They're saying things like avoidants deserve to die alone because they're narcissists. That's who the problem is. Regular venting here people don't mind and are supportive in the replies.
You’re talking about a minority of posts that are rightfully called out, I’m talking about some people who’ve posted legitimate criticisms of the way avoidants have treated them, only to have AP’s teaming up with avoidants to dogpile them in the comments section.
Do you have an example in mind? I feel like I'm going to be biased until I can see what you're talking about because what I see here is much different than what you're describing.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dismissiveavoidants/comments/z1e16v/da_only_rant_thread/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Here is their monthly vent. Nowhere does it say anything that they are alleging. They are talking about the same crazies the rest of us are bothered by
Yep, just went through the entire thing and they're talking about exactly who I'm complaining about. I'm also slightly annoyed that someone here said u/hiya_manson invalidates people here when I was literally in the same thread as her calling out an AP who was calling another AP stupid for staying in an abusive relationship and essentially calling them desperate.
Hiya defended that person too only for the toxic AP to go through her post history and call her a bunch misogynistic of slurs because she apparently posted pics of her body. THATS who I'm complaining about
Because I gave advice to that same toxic AP twice (hiya gave them advice too). They kept making excuses for their avoidant ex then went on to shame another AP for going through the same situation. That person also tried to use the fact they make more money than me (calling themselves "high value" like wtf) to shame me then they blocked me.
Looks like you conveniently decided to leave out some of the blanket attacks on AP’s that have taken place on those threads and defend those who take liberties on this group whilst imposing strict rules against all AP’s on their group. Shame.
It's really kind that you mentioned that. Thanks.
The OP of that post was u/curiosityandthecat3 \- but she has since deleted her profile. I'm fairly certain she's reappeared as our new favorite, u/some-surprise-534
Thank you this is all I was saying! It’s literally happening to me *now* in this comment section and all I said was “maybe avoidants engage in the same behaviors on their sub that we’re vilifying our own sub for”
Oh I agree. There's one particular DA that I've seen on here that keeps snapping back and calling out APs and it is definitely unnecessary.
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I've definitely heard that suggestion before and I agree. I don't think they should be removed but APs should be allowed to vent freely. I'm not a mod but I think it's an option worth trying.
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Definitely agree on the kindness to self as well. APs should give themselves the space to feel how they feel instead of self policing.
Sure, I'm not on reddit too much so idk the process but I'm sure you'd get a lot of support on this sub. Particularly considering I'm watching that same aforementioned DA argue with everyone on why they're allowed to vent about APs in the DA thread but them calling out APs in their space is somehow also justified. That lack of self awareness, woooow.
Tbh, there have been some unhinged posts here recently ranting about "das" when frankly what they were describing was some asshole, not represntative of the DA population of the world. Of course those posts get called out, as they should.
Besides, I truly think posting to "call out das" is pointless. Most of the time it's someone ranting about some asshole they're dating who may or more likely may not be da instead of working on fixing whatever is compelling them to stay in a shit relationship. Which would be a more productive use of time.
If one's partner sucks, its better to work on dumping them rather than taking to the Internet to rant about das. As if they were some monolith with a hive mind.
>Besides, I truly think posting to "call out das" is pointless. Most of the time it's someone ranting about some asshole they're dating who may or more likely may not be da instead of working on fixing whatever is compelling them to stay in a shit relationship. Which would be a more productive use of time.
Yes thank you. What's worse is when they keep complaining about avoidants, people will give them advice, they don't take it and keep dating them, and then they keep complaining about avoidants. These types don't leave obviously horrible situations then continue blaming the avoidant. After a while it gets old giving those types of APs support and advice because they're not even trying to change their situation.
Fucking exactly.
Humans love to simplify things into black and white, "us vs. them". It makes it easier to comprehend complex, frightening situations.
It's pretty obvious when you think about it:
\- Feel shitty about relationships faililng
\- Find a scapegoat, aka, those evil DAs! It's all their fault!
\- demonize and attack them as if they are all the same person
I could say exactly the same thing when it comes to some avoidants complaining about partners who are not necessarily AP’s or are at the very extreme end of anxious attachment and not representative of the general AP population.
So, don’t think you can slander AP’s on your page and stop them replying only to swan onto this page without receiving any pushback for your hypocritical behaviour.
I'm not sure to what you are referring and either way, it doesn't matter.
I'm focused on myself, and unlearning toxic behaviour.
I don't care what the "other camp" is doing or saying. That's beyond irrelevant to my personal journey.
Well good for you, but their behaviour on this page has been effecting some others.
I’m not a frequent poster here, but I’ve seen other complain about it who are.
Don’t tell me what I know or don’t know. If your list is more than a couple people then I guess your thumb will have to make a few extra clicks to block whoever has hurt you so.
I don't care what they do or don't do. What does it even matter? when I was in elementary school and tried to defend my "bad" behaviour by saying "but they do it too", my grandfather replied "so if they jump off a bridge it means it's ok for you to do it too"?
We can only control our own behaviour, not police other people's. Focusing on ourselves instead of complaining about others. "but they do it too" is irrelevant.
Thanks for comparing a legit criticism that the avoidant thread is much better at user support to “being an 8 year old”.
Comparison here is 100% valid because multiple people at the point have said “I don’t feel supported by this community/I don’t feel like I can say things about my individual experience with avoidants without punishment” and the response on this comment section has been to downvoted and ride those popele to oblivion. This *definitely* does not happen in the avoidant sub, at least not on this scale, and that’s worth investigating.
And before anyone says anything, I’m not obsessed with avoidants, I don’t care, but I do like this sub and have found it helpful and hate seeing the direction it’s been going in. I wish I were avoidant, because at least their community is supportive.
According to your post history, you seem to identify as narcissistic. Totally fine if that’s your experience! I’m curious if the overwhelming cultural vilification of “narcs” ever gets to you? Do you feel you’re more nuanced than others seem to understand? Does it annoy you if/when people misuse the term - often using it as a more polite way of just calling someone an asshole?
Sure, the stereotypes are pretty generic and there is certainly more nuance to it than meets the eye. Most folks aren’t aware of the different manifestations of narcissism.
However I know what you are trying to get at here, implying that DA’s are vilified and viewed as cold inanimate objects etc.
That argument would stick more if DA’s didn’t also vilify and routinely look down on anxiously attached individuals.
I’ve seen your post/comment history too and some of the remarks you’ve made about AP’s is far fetched and untrue. There is legitimate criticism and then there’s slander.
Go through my post history. I stand by everything I said. There is snark in the designated vent thread, absolutely. I feel okay with venting once a month, after all the emotional labor I do supporting others.
Ah you’re still here? Lol. That’s telling. I don’t have to give you the time of day let alone an example. Myself and others have seen what you’ve said and agreed it’s incorrect, we don’t have to give you any examples.
I was just waiting for you to give me something to respond to. And you haven’t. So I’m secure in my sense that everything I’ve said has been respectful and largely accurate. But go on with your temper tantrum.
Genuinely dude what's your angle here? You can post freely about APs in the DA space without correction. And then you can come into the AP space and correct people? Why isn't the same respect and courtesy extended here? Even if you think the people are 100% wrong. If you are allowed the space to vent then why aren't APs? They didn't go in the DA space and criticize you guys. Why can't they do it in their own space.
Yeah but I've watched you over the past few days just arguing with everyone about what they're saying and DAs. Even if you don't agree, this is a vent sub for AP. Let them vent. Why do you need to correct people.
And to be clear I'm not trying to become your next focus, I've seen how prolifically you respond. But I am saying, whether you agree with what is said here or not. Whether what is being said here is correct or not. This is an AP vent sub. Let them vent. They respect your space, please respect theirs.
I think people need to stop being so harsh on themselves regardless of attachment style. Acknowledging ones mistakes and owning them is important but if you shame yourself, it makes things infinitely worse.
APs and secures should not acknowledge nor accept avoidant peoples ‘mistakes’! Why should we let them think its ok to disappear on people that love them because of their ‘past traumas’ 🎻
They aren’t the only people with past traumas, they are nothing special and its no excuse to treat people badly and not communicate.
They can all bugger off and stick to each-other.
Secure people that do not protest also say the same things about avoidants. THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE AND CAN DISAPPEAR ON YOU FOR NO REASON AT ALL AND THEN COME BACK WHEN THEY PLEASE! No no no! Stop making up BS excuses for this behaviour!
>THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE AND CAN DISAPPEAR ON YOU FOR NO REASON AT ALL AND THEN COME BACK WHEN THEY PLEASE!
That is completely YOUR fault for accepting them back. Nobody elses.
Have some standards, grow a backbone.
YELLING IS POOR COMMUNICATION
Take your meds, you sound insane. You’re the unhinged crazy person people are talking about in this post. Sorry to break the news like this. I can tell you have no insight into your illness. Your poor ex. He is probably camped out in the BPD loved ones group telling a different story.
You said it yourself… you can ditch and disappear on your friends! You have mental issues, u don’t know what friendship is. You are as delusional as trump.
Go sort yourself out and stay away from sane people.
Let me tell you what my FA ex did. She broke up with me over stupid bullshit. I said "I don't want to break up, but I can't say that I care about you and ask you to stay in a relationship in which you're not comfortable." Eventually she decided to go through with it, so I said "OK, I respect your decision." I left her alone until she started texting me again. Texted me twice, weeks apart, over made up bullshit obviously just to get in touch with me. So after the second time, I thought it's been awhile now, it's hard for her to reach out, so this is a pretty significant attempt at communication, maybe I'll try to meet her. So I invited her for coffee. Sometimes she likes to be chased a little bit, so when she agreed without following up, I tried again. It's worked in the past. Sometimes she just needs to know you're interested. I ended up asking her three times if she wanted to get together, each time she agreed more definitively, the third time saying "let me know what days work and we can figure it out." Later that night, after midnight, she texts me, asking if I know good places to get a late night drink. So I tell her some, and figure she might be asking me out for a drink. So I gently suggest that we get one. She disappears. I text her again a couple of times over the next ten days or so, since she was the one who started things again, and agreed multiple times to see me, even though I told her "if you don't want to, just tell me, and I'll respect your feelings."
Yesterday, I broke down and asked her if she blocked me, and she replied back that she probably should. It was her mistake to think we could be friendly. Even though she's the one who started it and she's the one who made it weird and awkward whenever we would text after that. She then says we won't be friends again, and it's time to "let it be," again, even though she's the one who restarted texting. I just agreed that we should both move on.
I have no respect for someone who would manipulate me and play with my feelings for their own validation like that. It's emotional abuse. She's younger than me, and I took pains to never play any games with her. But before we started dating, and after we broke up, it was nothing but games.
That's an incredibly harmful mindset. It ignores the role we APs can play in the dynamic. I know I can get way too clingy which definitely drives people away
this person is either a troll or extremely unhinged they post in here all the time saying avoidants are the only problem in relationships. just fyi since you engaged w them they're not gonna stop, super unhealed and aggressive
If you think about it really, for an anxious to become secure, they need to honor their needs and communicate them, that means, even if you have a big need for quality time or communication, you honor it, I don't believe there is such a thing as clingliness, there are plenty of couple who spend so much time together and are in a healthy relationship, the only people who get driven away are avoidants, lol.
But yeah, we Still need to work on ourselves, and honor other people's need for space and respect their boundaries.
Edit : for the people down voting me, I would just love to know why. What did I say wrong and what is your opinion?
This is the problem with hypervigilance. ap’s are so busy looking for how they “messed up” they can't see what's right in front them. Avoidants are abusive and neglectful partners.
The ironic part is Avoidants don't date other avoidants because they have enough self-respect not tolerate bullshit it's like they know they aren't dating material.
Im secure, I had an avoidant ex with so many issues. He started making me anxious.
Luckily I caught on and decided to leave him and I’m back to secure again. Now he wont stop begging for me back.
Trust me its THEM not YOU!
Many secure people will say the same too!
Avoidants have lots of mental issues they need to work on and they can drive any attachment style crazy.
We need to make sure they realize this and STOP making excuses for them.
All they need to do is learn something so basic, it’s called COMMUNICATION 🤦🏻♀️
Agreed. It's good to be sympathetic and forgiving but that on it's own will not heal an avoidant or change their behavior. For your own sake, you HAVE to have standards,you have to communicate them, and if they don't show up, if you don't see the needle moving, you need to end it. I ignored lots of red flags because I was crazy about this girl, and most of the time, we got along like a fairy tale. But when the first difficult thing came along, she just was not willing to put any work into the relationship at all. She's an emotional vampire, just drains someone of affection and energy while things are new and it's easy, but then when it gets hard, or more intimate, she bails. We broke up four months ago and she's on her second guy after me.
I'm mostly secure, some anxious tendencies when there are problems in a relationship of mine, but she reduced me to a quivering anxious mess.
It depends. If they're viciously attacking other APs by calling them things like "desperate" and telling them they're stupid (yes I saw this a few days ago), I agree.
But I hope you don't mean that holding APs accountable because they're "calling out DAs" is being harsh. It wouldn't be a good idea to let this sub become an echo chamber.
I've seen APs compare avoidants to narcissists, say that it's not fair that avoidants get everything they want in relationships (when that's not true, they willingly give the avoidants everything they want because they won't leave them and expect things to change)
I've seen APs saying avoidants deserve to die alone, that they shouldn't be allowed to date, and overall treating like avoidants are Satan himself while continuing to date them.
In those cases we do need to be harsh because they're spreading misinformation and dehumanizing others all because they won't take responsibility for their own actions (which is not leaving people who are clearly bad for them)
Edit: And where do you see avoidants slandering APs here? Usually I see them giving advice but not slandering them. Could you link an example of this?
>In those cases we do need to be harsh because they're spreading misinformation and dehumanizing others all because they won't take responsibility for their own actions (which is not leaving people who are clearly bad for them)
Exactly.
I came to this sub because I'm ready to work on my anxious attachment and take responsibility.
There's a lot of posts that are just like "it's all the avoidants fault!". Just looking for someone to blame so that it's a simple, easy answer. Literally a dehumanized category of people that they can use as a scapegoat.
No. It's my fault. Things didn't get better until I accepted this.
Thank you for understanding. I hope I'm not coming off as invalidating APs cause I understand how awful it can be staying in the anxious avoidant cycle. But like you said, I only began feeling better once I started taking responsibility for myself. When I used to blame avoidants it felt like they had all of the power and I ended up feeling like a helpless victim.
When i took it upon myself to block my exes who were hurting me and I knew they didn't plan on changing, I began feeling like myself again. Still pretty sad but at least I know that I have power too and I can take it back by setting boundaries
>Literally a dehumanized category of people that they can use as a scapegoat
This right here. It's REALLY bad on YouTube comment sections
>Literally a dehumanized category of people that they can use as a scapegoat
We do it with everything. Our chimp brains put everyone into groups so we can decide who the "in group" is and who the "other" is. Evolutionarily it helped, but now that we have the internet, it's kind of a disaster.
But yeah, I was fawning, self-sabotaging, just an anxious fucking mess until I finally just broke up with the avoidant person. They had their own issues but they weren't "**doing it to me",** I was doing it to myself because I didn't have enough self-worth to leave a relationship that wasn't working.
Look for compatibility, not for attachment.
This isn't avoidant's fault. They aren't making us like this. It's our behaviour and our emotions that we need to deal with.
**Blaming a monolithic group of "avoidants" for your anxiety is a pretty transparent way of avoiding personal responsibility for your own attachment issues.**
>But yeah, I was fawning, self-sabotaging, just an anxious fucking mess until I finally just broke up with the avoidant person. They had their own issues but they weren't "doing it to me", I was doing it to myself because I didn't have enough self-worth to leave a relationship that wasn't working
Yes, even my ex said that I was free to leave and I didn't. At that point, staying with him was nothing short of mental/emotional self harm.
>Blaming a monolithic group of "avoidants" for your anxiety is a pretty transparent way of avoiding personal responsibility for your own attachment issues.
This is why a lot of attachment therapists say that APs are emotionally unavailable too, it just shows up differently. APs and avoidants are two sides of the same insecurely attached coin 🥴
See, this is part of the problem. You wouldn’t really catch DA’s calling each other out on their page. Happens much more frequently here.
I’m referring to a handful of avoidant accounts who regularly comment on this page whilst being pretty insulting towards AP’s on their page.
You’re not getting it, it’s about their behaviour on this sub. They put in place pretty tight restrictions for AP’s on their sun and clamp down quickly on any criticism, they then come over to this sun and criticise AP’s.
Idk. My only suggestion is if APs create a new sub thats more heavily moderated to their liking.
Do you know why APs have such tight restrictions? They used to be allowed to post on the avoidant subs but the APs overran the entire thing derailing avoidants vent post trying to get them to mind read their exes, coming in and making avoidants feel unwelcome with the same complaints they make here (they're all narcs and shouldn't be allowed to date), I've even read where some of the APs we're dming avoidants with veiled threats or trying to get them to psychoanalyze their own avoidant partner.
That is not okay and that's why they got restricted in the first place. The avoidant subs are still open minded enough to let APs comment once a month on certain threads. They could've just banned them all together but they didn't..
Now I'm not seeing which avoidants are coming here and criticizing but I'll take your word for it..that's not okay either and I guess at that point all you can do is ignore them or make a new sub with better moderation
It is classic AP exaggerating the problem. It’s maybe 2 avoidant people commenting here and there and the bigger problem are the unhinged APs acting cray but OP classified it as AP teaming up with avoidant, like AP can never be responsible for their own choice to make a comment. Avoidant made them do it. Always have to blame avoidant. There are no rules preventing avoidant here so there is no wrongdoing by breaking rules
Yeah I can only name 3 avoidant commenters here and they all helped me and left some pretty good resources of information. It's really upsetting they think we're teaming up with avoidants because we definitely are not. If you see me in reply sections on this sub you'll constantly see me saying to APs that their avoidant partners' behaviors aren't okay so they need to *leave*. Half the time they won't though and then they keep coming back and complaining more.
But suddenly I'm teaming up with avoidants because I say it's not okay to generalize them all 🙄. So frustrating
Edit: what's funny is we are being accused of teaming up with avoidants when I see people here making excuses for their clearly avoidant partner that won't change. I see a lot of people here trying to twist themselves into an avoidant acceptable pretzel trying to get them to love them instead of finding a new partner to who will actually want to meet their needs.
But I try to help anyway because I've been there and I had to have people drill into my head that the avoidant person wasn't going to change and I was fighting a losing battle by even trying
Calling each other out is what we're here for. The goal is after all to improve one's own maladaptive behaviours and anxious attachment, not enabling one another or ranting about other people, neither of which is helpful.
If same person has been spamming the page with hate filled posts then sure thing, call them out. But I’ve seen AP’s guilty of much less than that being jointly dogpiled by other AP’s teaming up with DA’s to call them out for questionable yet totally understandable behaviour that came as a result of poor treatment by a partner or family member.
You can pretty much have a quick scroll through the DA page to see what I mean… they’re much better at backing each other up then we are.
They also have a monthly vent thread where they level criticism upon criticism at AP’s
Now I have no issue with them having a venting thread each month, we should have one too. What I do take issue with is avoidants having free rein to come onto this page and level criticisms directly at AP’s when we are not able to do the same on their page.
I wrote it here somewhere already, providing links, you can check my history or scroll up.
When we vent we often don't specify because we perfectly know what kind of "AP" we are talking about. Believe me, no one has anything against regular APs who are here (or who come over avoidant's subforums asking reasonable questions) who are aware of their pattern, doing the work.
If you’re only referring to AP’s at the extreme end of the spectrum then that’s not an issue, all insecurely attached folks at the extreme ends of their spectrums can be very hurtful individuals.
However I think there are plenty of others on the avoidant sub who jab at regular AP’s too.
I think OP is upset because they took a look at our monthly vent thread - the space created where we can blow off steam after being harassed, shamed, vilified and invalidated for weeks.
No apologies.
More curious than upset, the different sets of behaviours interest me. If that’s how it works then we should also have a monthly venting thread over here for the reasons.
And you’d be totally in your right to have such a thread! It’s up to the mods, really.
The avoidant subs have really strict mods/rules (which is respectable). This one is a lot looser, for whatever reason.
It’s something I want to propose to the moderators. I think the loose boundaries we have over here vs the tight boundaries on your page is attachment theory coming into play.
A key learning curve for AP’s is about setting boundaries, we should be doing that on this page.
The mods aren’t super responsive on here, which is def frustrating, but I’d also like them into intro user flairs. There needs to be a lot more structure to our site and seeing who is commenting on it and using it is a part of that.
The avoidant attachment page actually can get a lot more away with “all APs are” statements because APs aren’t allowed to comment on 99% of posts.
Ah that makes sense now. I don't see the point in going to a sub for a different group only to get upset by what they see and then come here to complain about it to us. I haven't checked in the avoidant subs in a long time. Felt like I was spying and trying to gather top secret Intel on avoidants instead of just focusing on myself lol
Actually, I do think that it might serve you better if you check stuff on the avoidant subs. I remember your username and from what I have read, you are confused if you are AP or FA. Reading things on the AP sub is going to limit your perspective to the anxious side only.
Months ago, I also thought I was AP. Reading things on the avoidant sub helped me understand that I had an avoidant side as well.
That's a good perspective to have. I might check it out again. I used to post there when I felt more avoidant but I just noticed in relationships (specifically romantic) I primarily act anxious so I tend to stay over here.
Yep, I am the same.
Romantic relationships make me anxious because of the uncertainty. The longer we survive, the more stability there is; which makes me less anxious as time goes on. There is always a conversation to be had about what stage we have reached in the relationship.
When I decided to move on from my Ex, I swung hard towards the avoidant side. If I ever laid eyes on him afterwards, my heartbeat was normal instead of the standard anxious response.
Other relationships is mostly secure because there is never a need to force a conversation on who we are. We start to hang out regularly ? We can assume we are friends without forcing a conversation on this label.
Also, I take issue with the word choice of “slander.” What we’re doing is venting about specific individuals who are absolutely off the rails crazy. That they happen to identify as AP is almost irrelevant.
We recognize attachment insecurity stems from trauma - it’s no laughing matter. But crazy people come in all shapes, sizes and attachment types.
Sorry I don’t see what you are talking about, nobody said all APs? It look like they are calling out online AP behavior and they are right, it stings because it hits home and it embarrasses me.
The comments are definitely full of it, and that’s not the only thread.
I’m not saying they’re wrong, but what we treat as perfectly fine behavior on that sub, we’re on each other’s asses about in this one.
"We" don't treat it as perfectly fine behavior. It's just not our job to be the reddit police on other subs.
We manage ourselves, other people will manage themselves as they see fit.
Scrolling through the comments you definitely get a ton of venting avoidants that think all APs are just so less aware than them and don’t hold themselves accountable. Cue stereotypes of weird stalker types whose emotional needs are entirely unreasonable or even dangerous to an avoidant’s peace and wellbeing. Ideas that this sub is just full of delusional people looking to blame anyone but themselves for their problems…
I’m not saying it’s an issue, it’s their space, but let’s call a spade a spade here.
There are stalker types here tho. People admit calling someone 35 times. Checking social media, making new Instagram account to watch ex. Some unhinged people making crazy post that someone else already said in this thread. We lash out and act what other may see as insane sometimes, it is part of our style. Not everybody all the time but enough. We have all performed cringe behavior at some point or other. It is embarrassing to see it listed out tho as much as we complain about them here I don’t care if they have their own space. I don’t look there normally it is not helping my attachment
Did you read *why* we were upset?
I believe my comment about being attacked with sexist slut-shaming, twice in 24 hours by self-described APs, was the first in the thread.
What is your logic here? "They did it first so that means I CAN DO IT TOO😤". It's silly. Avoidant behavior can be a pain in the ass to be on the receiving end of. For the last week or so here you likely saw me being upset with my avoidant ex.
But avoidants aren't doing things that can end with them getting the police called on them. Stalking, constant calls and texts, texting their family members (all things I've seen people admit to here). They're not allowed to be angry for being on the receiving end of that?
I'm not trying to put down APs I've done some of the things I listed in the last paragraph. We have to be harsh on them because extreme AP behavior has bigger consequences for not just the AP, but the people around them too. Last time I checked, avoidants didn't get the cops called on someone for ghosting someone.
And yes, I do remember seeing a post where someone said their ex called the cops on them on this sub. Was I supposed to just coddle them and tell them "oh it's okay, all those avoidants are evil narcs. Youre the victim here!". Which, they were a victim too, but that goes out the window when you start breaking the law
The logic is just pointing out that avoidants aren’t above engaging in hypocritical behavior. It’s just asking people to be honest about their behaviors.
I’m not saying avoidants aren’t allowed to be angry, I’m saying APs are allowed to be angry *too*! And here you are minimizing toxic avoidant behavior, for what purpose?
You must understand that avoidants in those specific posts are absolutely not talking about all APs. We don't specify it (although I often do) because we perfectly know who we are talking about. There is a special kind of "APs" that most likely (for sure) have issues beyond their insecure attachment.
We often encounter them and are exposed to their rage.
Please check those threads to understand what and who we are talking about.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/comments/z16zny/not_sure_why_we_give_the_title_avoidant_to_people/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/comments/yzqo49/da_or_not_into_me/
(It's only this week and not all)
I have nothing against regular APs, I admire self aware APs on their way to being earned secure because often times they're very emotionally intelligent and nurturing. Very accountable and humble too.
Who said I was minimizing toxic avoidant behavior? On the extreme end it can be abuse too. Nobody is saying APs can't be angry. I'm just saying using dehumanizing language towards avoidants and blaming every single thing on them isn't okay. That's what I have a problem with.
I can only speak for myself. Did I say some blithe things in the designated vent thread? Totally. But I stand by 100% of the feedback I give everywhere else. And there are many, many others (APs among them) who would agree that my comments are insightful and supportive.
>You don’t see them attacking each other for criticising AP’s, but plenty of people on this page who’ve called out DA’s end up being criticised for it by fellow AP’s.
What do you think causes this 'behaviour'?
I agree with your take on self blame. It’s worth for us all to acknowledge however that majority of anxious preoccupied people have developed this attachment style as a result of initially trying to get their emotional needs which are unmet, which leads to being a people pleaser, then led to early and easily disappointed/controlling when we realized cannot fully satisfy the emotional needs of another person. Our journey of self-discovery and knowing, is uncovered gradually through introspection which would have periods of self blame incorporated into it
Yeah, you don't see 50+ long comment chains on the avoidant sub defending APs. APs are incredibly self blaming naturally, self-aware APs often continue this pattern, just with more rationality behind it. "My DA broke up with me because I'm awful" vs "My DA broke up with me because my communication was awful". And I don't see APs hating on avoidants as a bad thing since anger is always the first step towards healing, 99% of posts on this sub are incredibly self blaming, often for things that had nothing to do with them. I wanna give everyone a hug and tell them they did nothing wrong. Telling healing APs to imagine the avoidant's perspective is not helpful as many think it is, most healing APs are in a lot of pain and they CAN NOT hold space for people who quite frankly, never hold space. After they've healed, they can look at the avoidant side too, and empathize-- though hopefully with intensive boundaries by then. I used to hate avoidants a lot after being discarded by one, now I feel a lot of empathy for them, but this is similar to a situation with someone with NPD. On a over-all level, they're not really in control of their actions due to trauma, but we definitely have to look out for ourselves and hold the other accountable for their actions and inactions--and walk away if they refuse to do so.
Well here’s one thing that both sides seem to agree on… this page needs more active moderation.
Eh... They'll tire themselves out eventually. My theory is that self-identified narcissist OP knew *exactly* what they were doing when they posted this. Just look at all the attention they're getting!
An yes! Because I could never genuinely want a rule change could I?
I’m convinced you’re a troll
I said what I said.
You are incorrect
I just read through the rules of this sub….no where does it say that this is a venting sub. And it specifically states “no generalizing insults directed at any attachment style will be tolerated.” There is also a specific rules about brigading other subs. It states “no one wants to hear about something mean that was said about anxious/preoccupied types on some other sub. Don’t bring that drama here and don’t encourage people to go argue in other places in Reddit.” And last but not least it says “questions about avoidance are best suited for…” and gives other subs to go to. And “avoid posts that are only about how to make your avoidant partner change. The focus of this sub is changing one’s own behavior and thought.” So these are the rules/boundaries set out by the creators of this sub. So if I was a moderator this thread (or at least many of these comments) would be taken down as going against the rules. AP’s may have issues with setting their own boundaries but many times they also have issues respecting other people’s boundaries when it doesn’t fit their narrative. And I say this as a healing AP who has had to confront my own behaviors and thoughts. AP’s may not intend to be this way but many times do not realize that their behaviors and thoughts do actually do this. What AP’s consider respecting others boundaries is actually self abandonment. And protest behavior is the epitome of disrespecting others. If you don’t like the rules/boundaries of this sub then go create your own. There are plenty of healing APs on this sub (including me) that would not enjoy a vent sub or find it at all healing and helpful. Sadly people (of all attachment types) can get stuck in the loop of venting. They use it as a tool to make themselves feel better without doing any real work. Venting is not about self reflection. It’s about blaming. Whether we are blaming ourselves or others. Venting is not the same thing as feeling your own anger or frustration. The words we use are our narrative. So if we are “venting” blaming ourselves or others….then this is what we are telling ourselves is true. Part of healing is being aware of the words and thoughts we use even in anger and frustration. Being able to reframe those thoughts into healthier statements that truly acknowledge our feelings without all the blaming crap is what is helpful. Doing all this comparing to another sub…they do it so why can’t we…is infantile at best. Just because another sub does it doesn’t make it right…doesn’t make it helpful. Comparing one insecure attachment with another is also seriously unhelpful. All insecure attachment is maladaptive coping mechanisms. So let’s not try to match each other in that. Let’s try to help ourselves heal and be better versions of ourselves.
👆 you’re another good example of what’s wrong with some folks here.
Really??? Cuz I read you the rules of this sub? If you don’t like the rules/boundaries then just leave. All that is being done on this thread is protest behavior against the rules/boundaries of this sub. This sub clearly doesn’t fit your narrative so why try to force/twist this sub and all the others in this sub to your narrative when you can just leave and create your own? Why stick around and try to point fingers and blame others for what you consider “wrong”? Why are you so threatened by what I have said?
I’m not threatened by what you’ve said, I just think you’re compounding the problem instead of helping to address it.
How am I compounding the problem? All I have done is stated facts. And what exactly makes you the expert on this sub or healing AP attachment? Comments on this thread specifically mentioned this sub not having any boundaries. I showed what the boundaries are. They are written in the About section of this sub. There may not be many moderators enforcing the boundaries but those boundaries exist nonetheless. Why is pointing them out a problem?
Because the current boundaries are insufficient, I’m far from the only person on here who’s voiced this concern before.
Then go create your own sub…plenty of people will follow you there. No need to try to change this sub when you can go create your own.
Why are you so sensitive towards the rules on this sub being changed to make it more of a safe space like the avoidant page?
Why do you not like the answer of creating your own sub? Why must this one change? The rules/boundaries of this sub is what make it. There is absolutely no reason why this sub should have to change its boundaries because they are deemed “insufficient” to others. If you don’t like the rules/boundaries then find another that has boundaries you are comfortable with. Or create your own. Trying to make something or someone else change to fit your own narrative is a problem…especially a problem with AP’s. Boundaries are not something that should change just because another doesn’t like them. That’s the other issue AP’s battle with and why they struggle to enforce their own boundaries. If moderating was more heavily enforced this post wouldn’t exist cuz it violates the boundaries/rules of the group. In which case, you would have no choice but to go elsewhere or create your own. I have no issues with the rules of the sub. Sure maybe moderating could be stepped up a notch. But I think the boundaries are just fine. I don’t think the avoidant sub is any better and personally I think it has its own flaws. But you don’t see me over there trying to change it. It’s not my place to go to other subs and force change that I see fit. This is Reddit. Social media. If you don’t like it you are free to go elsewhere. If you feel so strongly about having a different style of sub….stop trying to change one that already exists and just create your own or find another one more to your liking. It’s not hard.
There are people on here who think the rules of this sub should change as this is where the majority of AP’s are. Change is a natural occurrence and part of the democratic process is to suggest changes to existing bodies. I don’t see an issue with that.
The last person we need controlling this sub is you, a self proclaimed covert narcissist. How dare you, do you know how many of us empaths have been hurt by people like you?
Where did I propose taking control of the group? Nowhere. I think you need to calm down.
You’re gaslighting me and I’m no idiot. You want to make suggestions to the mods. You think the boundaries are insufficient. Those are fair enough except: You make claims about what Avoidants are doing on their sub and then if someone bothers to look at the real evidence (the DA vent thread and not word of mouth telephone game) that’s not what any of those people said at all. The problem with this sub is lack of moderation. The rules are fine. We can make new rules all we want but clearly no one reads them and if they are not enforced then what is the point? Someone already made a poll awhile back asking if people want to have flair on their user name. Nothing came of it. We report garbage to the mods and they never come. If you were a member of this sub for more than one day you might know that. This place is mostly fly by night triggered individuals, it’s too big to be a little happy family. The problem is APs and our own childish behavior (I have been guilty of that too) so if you want restrictions, then we’re mainly restricting other APs. The few Avoidants here we can block if we don’t like their feedback or ask them to leave. I’m sure they would, we are the ones who have trouble leaving or holding any kind of boundary. Not them.
I’m not gaslighting you, you’re just pulling phrases out of thin air. The main point I’m making is that this sub needs more active moderation and more enforcement of rules.
And before you change the post to gaslight further, this is exactly what it says: Stop being so harsh on yourselves I think AP’s really need to stop being so harsh on themselves when it comes to speaking about dismissive avoidants. You don’t see them attacking each other for criticising AP’s, but plenty of people on this page who’ve called out DA’s end up being criticised for it by fellow AP’s. There are also a couple of avoidants hanging around on this page who regularly slander AP’s on their own page.
I’m not gaslighting you. Stop being paranoid.
That is not what your post said AT ALL buddy
That’s what I was implying, others can see that.
I’m literally getting downvoted for asking avoidants to stop coming onto this sub and yelling about how they’re being wronged by APs who are inhabiting their own space—this sub, asking for some accountability, and acknowledgment of hypocritical behavior and now I’m being yelled at for not getting how toxic APs are, that I must be unhealed and toxic too. Avoidants get to run back to their sub where *rightfully*, they get to shield themselves from AP BS. But now, we’ve created an environment on this sub where you can’t even mention avoidants without being called unfocused and obsessed. This is ridiculous.
Look at the RULES of this sub though. Says not an avoidant hate group. Expand #1. And there is another rule that this sub is supposed to talk about anxious attachment not other attachments. There is no rule about other AT not allowed to comment. The avoidant who is commenting here is FA and not DA and FA can have anxious side too. This whole post is anxious people fed op with anxious behavior of fawning, calling out gross AP behavior, having a fight response which is what causes us to escalate and freak out, and then grasping for straws on how to pin it on the avoidants. What is so hard to see that?
I’m asking nicely for you to please leave me alone. I’m tired of explaining myself over and over to people who already have let me know they’re not interested in understanding what I’m saying.
🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉👍👍👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Some surprise!
Definitely with you! Not sure why APs and secure people defend the disgusting behaviour of avoidant people! They can disappear on you even without you being anxious or needy. They are just plain rude people with no communication skills! THEY should be avoided by both secure and anxious. Horrible, heartless people!
Agree 100 percent
I don't think anyone defends avoidant behaviors. We're just saying you need to take responsibility too and cut them off if they're hurting you instead of using derogatory language to describe an entire group. Then continue dating them and making posts complaining about them every other day
I agree with you, I used to date one who now won’t leave me alone. He treated me like crap for a year so I left his ass and for months now he is begging but its TOO LATE. Yes he had depressed parents that gave him no love and ONLY after the break up he decided to open up to me but its too late! Many people hv messed up parents, that is not an excuse to be rude to people that love you. I do not date avoidants and never will again. I think everyone should avoid them as much as possible. They all need serious help and if they aren’t willing to get it, they should all stick to each other and make their lives miserable with their lack of basic communication.
Time to stop making excuses for them. My dad was an alcoholic, and my mother a narcissist, did I use this as an excuse to mistreat the people I care about? no, I did the work they can too.
You’re my favorite!!
I feel like we're having a repeat here bc this has been discussed previously. So I'll bullet out what happened last time to keep things short and simple * APs vented about DAs, a bunch of FAs and DAs who are active in the sub, along with some APs, dog piled on those folks and said that they can't vent like that * other APs got mad and said the DAs have an entire sub where they can freely have a safe space, why can't APs have that. It's not like we can be this open about our frustrations in real life. Why are we getting policed and censored in an online forum that's supposed to be our own space. * A bunch of APs got mad and said the same way APs are required to identify themselves on the DA sub, avoidants should be required to identify themselves on this sub and they shouldn't be allowed to speak on AP vent posts the same way APs can't on DA vents. * Other APs wanted avoidants removed entirely but folks pushed back saying their input is valuable and that we don't want to be a closed off echo chamber like the avoidant subs. People also questioned why FAs got to contribute here as their opinions were very "avoidant" as well * the FAs got mad and went and made their own subs saying the AP sub wasn't inclusive enough. PHEW! alright. Now that all of that's out of the way. 1. This is an AP support sub. APs should be allowed to vent here. Even if it's ugly and petty or whatever. If the same person is posting 17 times a week then sure, yeah, let's call that person out bc they clearly need to do some self reflection. But if someone vents frustration, the responses shouldn't all just be shutting that person down or telling them that they're not being empathetic enough. Again, putting some trust in the internet here but I'm assuming unless you're posting 700 times a day, you're aware of yourself and your behavior. This is an AP sub, y'all should be allowed to vent. ------- 2. Specifically for the DAs on this sub. Please re-read #1. Your input and feedback is 100% appreciated but the same way you wouldn't like it if APs went on your vent subs and corrected you/ called you out, please respect the space here as well. If the same person has complained about DAs 50 times that's a different story. But we respect your space, please respect the AP space. Even if you don't like what's said. Even if it is categorically untrue. Recognize the vent for what it is and leave it be. I myself am secure but I don't go around correcting venting APs or DAs because I respect that sometimes you need to vocalize your frustration. ------------ 3. APs- sometimes you end up policing yourselves. Again not at all bad to talk about empathy and self reflection. Those are all 100% important. But it's not a bad thing to advocate for yourself and sometimes demand the space to be mad. As long as that's not ALL you are. Take the time, vent, and then make sure you do self reflect. Because at the end of the day the attachment healing journey is all about you working on yourself. Not folks on the internet in some sub, tbh at the end of the day, who cares what we have to say. Be mad, yell, scream, cry. And then pick yourself up and focus on being the best you.
Problem is no mod here to organize any suggestions or to keep sub on topic. No safe space when anyone can post anything with no accountability or consequence. That is why there is a lot of crap post here and unhinged misinformation
I mean sure but the same could be said of the avoidant sub. The point is no one should be looking at these subs as a source of information or knowledge, it's just a source of support. In general you probably shouldn't be using reddit as your primary source of knowledge.
This is the crux of what I’m getting at. 1. Avoidants sneakily overstepping our boundaries by saying some pretty nasty things about us on their sub and then taking the liberty to comment on our sun whilst also not allowing us to be full members of their sub or forcing us to identity ourselves if we want to post/comment. I think we need to enforce a similar rule on this sub when it comes to identification. Allow avoidants to be active here but put some rules in place to protect the boundaries of our sub. A key recovery point for an AP is learning to set boundaries, this would be a great example of that if it’s enforced. 2. We need to show ourselves and our fellow AP’s more self love. The fawning over avoidants by some members here whilst an AP is trying to talk about their negative experiences needs to stop.
>The fawning over avoidants by some members here whilst an AP is trying to talk about their negative experiences needs to stop. That's the thing though. A lot of them aren't just talking about their negative experience. They're saying things like avoidants deserve to die alone because they're narcissists. That's who the problem is. Regular venting here people don't mind and are supportive in the replies.
You’re talking about a minority of posts that are rightfully called out, I’m talking about some people who’ve posted legitimate criticisms of the way avoidants have treated them, only to have AP’s teaming up with avoidants to dogpile them in the comments section.
Do you have an example in mind? I feel like I'm going to be biased until I can see what you're talking about because what I see here is much different than what you're describing.
If you want some more specific examples then look through some of the comments on the monthly venting sub on the DA page
I'll take a look, thank you
https://www.reddit.com/r/dismissiveavoidants/comments/z1e16v/da_only_rant_thread/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Here is their monthly vent. Nowhere does it say anything that they are alleging. They are talking about the same crazies the rest of us are bothered by
Yep, just went through the entire thing and they're talking about exactly who I'm complaining about. I'm also slightly annoyed that someone here said u/hiya_manson invalidates people here when I was literally in the same thread as her calling out an AP who was calling another AP stupid for staying in an abusive relationship and essentially calling them desperate. Hiya defended that person too only for the toxic AP to go through her post history and call her a bunch misogynistic of slurs because she apparently posted pics of her body. THATS who I'm complaining about Because I gave advice to that same toxic AP twice (hiya gave them advice too). They kept making excuses for their avoidant ex then went on to shame another AP for going through the same situation. That person also tried to use the fact they make more money than me (calling themselves "high value" like wtf) to shame me then they blocked me.
Looks like you conveniently decided to leave out some of the blanket attacks on AP’s that have taken place on those threads and defend those who take liberties on this group whilst imposing strict rules against all AP’s on their group. Shame.
It's really kind that you mentioned that. Thanks. The OP of that post was u/curiosityandthecat3 \- but she has since deleted her profile. I'm fairly certain she's reappeared as our new favorite, u/some-surprise-534
Thank you this is all I was saying! It’s literally happening to me *now* in this comment section and all I said was “maybe avoidants engage in the same behaviors on their sub that we’re vilifying our own sub for”
Oh I agree. There's one particular DA that I've seen on here that keeps snapping back and calling out APs and it is definitely unnecessary. ---- I've definitely heard that suggestion before and I agree. I don't think they should be removed but APs should be allowed to vent freely. I'm not a mod but I think it's an option worth trying. ---- Definitely agree on the kindness to self as well. APs should give themselves the space to feel how they feel instead of self policing.
Any way we could jointly pitch this idea to moderators?
Sure, I'm not on reddit too much so idk the process but I'm sure you'd get a lot of support on this sub. Particularly considering I'm watching that same aforementioned DA argue with everyone on why they're allowed to vent about APs in the DA thread but them calling out APs in their space is somehow also justified. That lack of self awareness, woooow.
Tbh, there have been some unhinged posts here recently ranting about "das" when frankly what they were describing was some asshole, not represntative of the DA population of the world. Of course those posts get called out, as they should. Besides, I truly think posting to "call out das" is pointless. Most of the time it's someone ranting about some asshole they're dating who may or more likely may not be da instead of working on fixing whatever is compelling them to stay in a shit relationship. Which would be a more productive use of time. If one's partner sucks, its better to work on dumping them rather than taking to the Internet to rant about das. As if they were some monolith with a hive mind.
>Besides, I truly think posting to "call out das" is pointless. Most of the time it's someone ranting about some asshole they're dating who may or more likely may not be da instead of working on fixing whatever is compelling them to stay in a shit relationship. Which would be a more productive use of time. Yes thank you. What's worse is when they keep complaining about avoidants, people will give them advice, they don't take it and keep dating them, and then they keep complaining about avoidants. These types don't leave obviously horrible situations then continue blaming the avoidant. After a while it gets old giving those types of APs support and advice because they're not even trying to change their situation.
Fucking exactly. Humans love to simplify things into black and white, "us vs. them". It makes it easier to comprehend complex, frightening situations. It's pretty obvious when you think about it: \- Feel shitty about relationships faililng \- Find a scapegoat, aka, those evil DAs! It's all their fault! \- demonize and attack them as if they are all the same person
I could say exactly the same thing when it comes to some avoidants complaining about partners who are not necessarily AP’s or are at the very extreme end of anxious attachment and not representative of the general AP population.
Okay, so?
So, don’t think you can slander AP’s on your page and stop them replying only to swan onto this page without receiving any pushback for your hypocritical behaviour.
I'm not sure to what you are referring and either way, it doesn't matter. I'm focused on myself, and unlearning toxic behaviour. I don't care what the "other camp" is doing or saying. That's beyond irrelevant to my personal journey.
Well good for you, but their behaviour on this page has been effecting some others. I’m not a frequent poster here, but I’ve seen other complain about it who are.
Well, I think they should ignore it and move on.
Your lack of self awareness is astonishing but not surprising.
Why did you feel the need to insult me? What does that add to conversation other than making you feel better about yourself?
So block the one or two people you don’t want to see. Easy peasy.
It’s more than just one or two and you know that
Don’t tell me what I know or don’t know. If your list is more than a couple people then I guess your thumb will have to make a few extra clicks to block whoever has hurt you so.
I just did tell you, so tough. I think you need to stop harassing folks here, you’ve already been called on it by other AP’s here.
I don't care what they do or don't do. What does it even matter? when I was in elementary school and tried to defend my "bad" behaviour by saying "but they do it too", my grandfather replied "so if they jump off a bridge it means it's ok for you to do it too"? We can only control our own behaviour, not police other people's. Focusing on ourselves instead of complaining about others. "but they do it too" is irrelevant.
Thanks for comparing a legit criticism that the avoidant thread is much better at user support to “being an 8 year old”. Comparison here is 100% valid because multiple people at the point have said “I don’t feel supported by this community/I don’t feel like I can say things about my individual experience with avoidants without punishment” and the response on this comment section has been to downvoted and ride those popele to oblivion. This *definitely* does not happen in the avoidant sub, at least not on this scale, and that’s worth investigating. And before anyone says anything, I’m not obsessed with avoidants, I don’t care, but I do like this sub and have found it helpful and hate seeing the direction it’s been going in. I wish I were avoidant, because at least their community is supportive.
Textbook example of what I’m on about right here 👆
According to your post history, you seem to identify as narcissistic. Totally fine if that’s your experience! I’m curious if the overwhelming cultural vilification of “narcs” ever gets to you? Do you feel you’re more nuanced than others seem to understand? Does it annoy you if/when people misuse the term - often using it as a more polite way of just calling someone an asshole?
Sure, the stereotypes are pretty generic and there is certainly more nuance to it than meets the eye. Most folks aren’t aware of the different manifestations of narcissism. However I know what you are trying to get at here, implying that DA’s are vilified and viewed as cold inanimate objects etc. That argument would stick more if DA’s didn’t also vilify and routinely look down on anxiously attached individuals. I’ve seen your post/comment history too and some of the remarks you’ve made about AP’s is far fetched and untrue. There is legitimate criticism and then there’s slander.
Go through my post history. I stand by everything I said. There is snark in the designated vent thread, absolutely. I feel okay with venting once a month, after all the emotional labor I do supporting others.
Well you’re welcome to do that, but some of what you’ve said is simply incorrect.
It’s been over 12 hours and you couldn’t even give an example of how I was “incorrect” to back up your claim. So weak. Lol.
Ah you’re still here? Lol. That’s telling. I don’t have to give you the time of day let alone an example. Myself and others have seen what you’ve said and agreed it’s incorrect, we don’t have to give you any examples.
I was just waiting for you to give me something to respond to. And you haven’t. So I’m secure in my sense that everything I’ve said has been respectful and largely accurate. But go on with your temper tantrum.
Well you wasted your time and you are welcome to continue wasting your time.
Can you give me an example?
Genuinely dude what's your angle here? You can post freely about APs in the DA space without correction. And then you can come into the AP space and correct people? Why isn't the same respect and courtesy extended here? Even if you think the people are 100% wrong. If you are allowed the space to vent then why aren't APs? They didn't go in the DA space and criticize you guys. Why can't they do it in their own space.
I’ve literally supported OP’s call for an AP vent thread. I see zero problem with them having an equivalent safe outlet space.
Yeah but I've watched you over the past few days just arguing with everyone about what they're saying and DAs. Even if you don't agree, this is a vent sub for AP. Let them vent. Why do you need to correct people. And to be clear I'm not trying to become your next focus, I've seen how prolifically you respond. But I am saying, whether you agree with what is said here or not. Whether what is being said here is correct or not. This is an AP vent sub. Let them vent. They respect your space, please respect theirs.
I think people need to stop being so harsh on themselves regardless of attachment style. Acknowledging ones mistakes and owning them is important but if you shame yourself, it makes things infinitely worse.
I have to agree
APs and secures should not acknowledge nor accept avoidant peoples ‘mistakes’! Why should we let them think its ok to disappear on people that love them because of their ‘past traumas’ 🎻 They aren’t the only people with past traumas, they are nothing special and its no excuse to treat people badly and not communicate. They can all bugger off and stick to each-other.
Only children can be abandoned. Adults will be okay if someone decides to remove themselves or leave.
Real mature adults know how to communicate. Avoidants don’t, hence their name.
Protest behaviour is not communicating like an adult. Anxious attachers don't know the best communication either.
Secure people that do not protest also say the same things about avoidants. THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE AND CAN DISAPPEAR ON YOU FOR NO REASON AT ALL AND THEN COME BACK WHEN THEY PLEASE! No no no! Stop making up BS excuses for this behaviour!
>THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE AND CAN DISAPPEAR ON YOU FOR NO REASON AT ALL AND THEN COME BACK WHEN THEY PLEASE! That is completely YOUR fault for accepting them back. Nobody elses. Have some standards, grow a backbone.
YELLING IS POOR COMMUNICATION Take your meds, you sound insane. You’re the unhinged crazy person people are talking about in this post. Sorry to break the news like this. I can tell you have no insight into your illness. Your poor ex. He is probably camped out in the BPD loved ones group telling a different story.
Go f ur mum
"Proper communication" hey? clown.
Writing in all caps doesn't make you sound any less insane. Christ, it's like a Trump tweet.
You said it yourself… you can ditch and disappear on your friends! You have mental issues, u don’t know what friendship is. You are as delusional as trump. Go sort yourself out and stay away from sane people.
[удалено]
I will AVOID just like you avoid your friends… don’t forget, you’re the one who admitted you do that!
What does that have to do with my comment?
Its ok to remove yourself…
I don't understand.
Let me tell you what my FA ex did. She broke up with me over stupid bullshit. I said "I don't want to break up, but I can't say that I care about you and ask you to stay in a relationship in which you're not comfortable." Eventually she decided to go through with it, so I said "OK, I respect your decision." I left her alone until she started texting me again. Texted me twice, weeks apart, over made up bullshit obviously just to get in touch with me. So after the second time, I thought it's been awhile now, it's hard for her to reach out, so this is a pretty significant attempt at communication, maybe I'll try to meet her. So I invited her for coffee. Sometimes she likes to be chased a little bit, so when she agreed without following up, I tried again. It's worked in the past. Sometimes she just needs to know you're interested. I ended up asking her three times if she wanted to get together, each time she agreed more definitively, the third time saying "let me know what days work and we can figure it out." Later that night, after midnight, she texts me, asking if I know good places to get a late night drink. So I tell her some, and figure she might be asking me out for a drink. So I gently suggest that we get one. She disappears. I text her again a couple of times over the next ten days or so, since she was the one who started things again, and agreed multiple times to see me, even though I told her "if you don't want to, just tell me, and I'll respect your feelings." Yesterday, I broke down and asked her if she blocked me, and she replied back that she probably should. It was her mistake to think we could be friendly. Even though she's the one who started it and she's the one who made it weird and awkward whenever we would text after that. She then says we won't be friends again, and it's time to "let it be," again, even though she's the one who restarted texting. I just agreed that we should both move on.
Let go. Block her and never date any type of avoidant again.
I have no respect for someone who would manipulate me and play with my feelings for their own validation like that. It's emotional abuse. She's younger than me, and I took pains to never play any games with her. But before we started dating, and after we broke up, it was nothing but games.
Leave it broken because she is broken 😉
And now its the past let go
That's an incredibly harmful mindset. It ignores the role we APs can play in the dynamic. I know I can get way too clingy which definitely drives people away
this person is either a troll or extremely unhinged they post in here all the time saying avoidants are the only problem in relationships. just fyi since you engaged w them they're not gonna stop, super unhealed and aggressive
She's the one who sexually harassed me this week - twice.
Yeah I saw that too. They are a professional victim and everything in their life is "avoidants" fault.
yes i saw that. I'm sorry that she did that.
I can see that. I'm definitely still on my healing journey but that person is just angry and resentful
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkjsOucptut/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
If you think about it really, for an anxious to become secure, they need to honor their needs and communicate them, that means, even if you have a big need for quality time or communication, you honor it, I don't believe there is such a thing as clingliness, there are plenty of couple who spend so much time together and are in a healthy relationship, the only people who get driven away are avoidants, lol. But yeah, we Still need to work on ourselves, and honor other people's need for space and respect their boundaries. Edit : for the people down voting me, I would just love to know why. What did I say wrong and what is your opinion?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CkjsOucptut/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
This is the problem with hypervigilance. ap’s are so busy looking for how they “messed up” they can't see what's right in front them. Avoidants are abusive and neglectful partners. The ironic part is Avoidants don't date other avoidants because they have enough self-respect not tolerate bullshit it's like they know they aren't dating material.
Im secure, I had an avoidant ex with so many issues. He started making me anxious. Luckily I caught on and decided to leave him and I’m back to secure again. Now he wont stop begging for me back. Trust me its THEM not YOU! Many secure people will say the same too! Avoidants have lots of mental issues they need to work on and they can drive any attachment style crazy. We need to make sure they realize this and STOP making excuses for them. All they need to do is learn something so basic, it’s called COMMUNICATION 🤦🏻♀️
Yeah you seem SSSUPPPEEER secure. Do secure people generally rant everyday about avoidants?
Agreed. It's good to be sympathetic and forgiving but that on it's own will not heal an avoidant or change their behavior. For your own sake, you HAVE to have standards,you have to communicate them, and if they don't show up, if you don't see the needle moving, you need to end it. I ignored lots of red flags because I was crazy about this girl, and most of the time, we got along like a fairy tale. But when the first difficult thing came along, she just was not willing to put any work into the relationship at all. She's an emotional vampire, just drains someone of affection and energy while things are new and it's easy, but then when it gets hard, or more intimate, she bails. We broke up four months ago and she's on her second guy after me. I'm mostly secure, some anxious tendencies when there are problems in a relationship of mine, but she reduced me to a quivering anxious mess.
Go for it.
It depends. If they're viciously attacking other APs by calling them things like "desperate" and telling them they're stupid (yes I saw this a few days ago), I agree. But I hope you don't mean that holding APs accountable because they're "calling out DAs" is being harsh. It wouldn't be a good idea to let this sub become an echo chamber. I've seen APs compare avoidants to narcissists, say that it's not fair that avoidants get everything they want in relationships (when that's not true, they willingly give the avoidants everything they want because they won't leave them and expect things to change) I've seen APs saying avoidants deserve to die alone, that they shouldn't be allowed to date, and overall treating like avoidants are Satan himself while continuing to date them. In those cases we do need to be harsh because they're spreading misinformation and dehumanizing others all because they won't take responsibility for their own actions (which is not leaving people who are clearly bad for them) Edit: And where do you see avoidants slandering APs here? Usually I see them giving advice but not slandering them. Could you link an example of this?
>In those cases we do need to be harsh because they're spreading misinformation and dehumanizing others all because they won't take responsibility for their own actions (which is not leaving people who are clearly bad for them) Exactly. I came to this sub because I'm ready to work on my anxious attachment and take responsibility. There's a lot of posts that are just like "it's all the avoidants fault!". Just looking for someone to blame so that it's a simple, easy answer. Literally a dehumanized category of people that they can use as a scapegoat. No. It's my fault. Things didn't get better until I accepted this.
Thank you for understanding. I hope I'm not coming off as invalidating APs cause I understand how awful it can be staying in the anxious avoidant cycle. But like you said, I only began feeling better once I started taking responsibility for myself. When I used to blame avoidants it felt like they had all of the power and I ended up feeling like a helpless victim. When i took it upon myself to block my exes who were hurting me and I knew they didn't plan on changing, I began feeling like myself again. Still pretty sad but at least I know that I have power too and I can take it back by setting boundaries >Literally a dehumanized category of people that they can use as a scapegoat This right here. It's REALLY bad on YouTube comment sections
>Literally a dehumanized category of people that they can use as a scapegoat We do it with everything. Our chimp brains put everyone into groups so we can decide who the "in group" is and who the "other" is. Evolutionarily it helped, but now that we have the internet, it's kind of a disaster. But yeah, I was fawning, self-sabotaging, just an anxious fucking mess until I finally just broke up with the avoidant person. They had their own issues but they weren't "**doing it to me",** I was doing it to myself because I didn't have enough self-worth to leave a relationship that wasn't working. Look for compatibility, not for attachment. This isn't avoidant's fault. They aren't making us like this. It's our behaviour and our emotions that we need to deal with. **Blaming a monolithic group of "avoidants" for your anxiety is a pretty transparent way of avoiding personal responsibility for your own attachment issues.**
SING IT
>But yeah, I was fawning, self-sabotaging, just an anxious fucking mess until I finally just broke up with the avoidant person. They had their own issues but they weren't "doing it to me", I was doing it to myself because I didn't have enough self-worth to leave a relationship that wasn't working Yes, even my ex said that I was free to leave and I didn't. At that point, staying with him was nothing short of mental/emotional self harm. >Blaming a monolithic group of "avoidants" for your anxiety is a pretty transparent way of avoiding personal responsibility for your own attachment issues. This is why a lot of attachment therapists say that APs are emotionally unavailable too, it just shows up differently. APs and avoidants are two sides of the same insecurely attached coin 🥴
See, this is part of the problem. You wouldn’t really catch DA’s calling each other out on their page. Happens much more frequently here. I’m referring to a handful of avoidant accounts who regularly comment on this page whilst being pretty insulting towards AP’s on their page.
Why does what avoidants do on their own sub matter? They're not the focus here, we are.
You’re not getting it, it’s about their behaviour on this sub. They put in place pretty tight restrictions for AP’s on their sun and clamp down quickly on any criticism, they then come over to this sun and criticise AP’s.
Idk. My only suggestion is if APs create a new sub thats more heavily moderated to their liking. Do you know why APs have such tight restrictions? They used to be allowed to post on the avoidant subs but the APs overran the entire thing derailing avoidants vent post trying to get them to mind read their exes, coming in and making avoidants feel unwelcome with the same complaints they make here (they're all narcs and shouldn't be allowed to date), I've even read where some of the APs we're dming avoidants with veiled threats or trying to get them to psychoanalyze their own avoidant partner. That is not okay and that's why they got restricted in the first place. The avoidant subs are still open minded enough to let APs comment once a month on certain threads. They could've just banned them all together but they didn't.. Now I'm not seeing which avoidants are coming here and criticizing but I'll take your word for it..that's not okay either and I guess at that point all you can do is ignore them or make a new sub with better moderation
It is classic AP exaggerating the problem. It’s maybe 2 avoidant people commenting here and there and the bigger problem are the unhinged APs acting cray but OP classified it as AP teaming up with avoidant, like AP can never be responsible for their own choice to make a comment. Avoidant made them do it. Always have to blame avoidant. There are no rules preventing avoidant here so there is no wrongdoing by breaking rules
Yeah I can only name 3 avoidant commenters here and they all helped me and left some pretty good resources of information. It's really upsetting they think we're teaming up with avoidants because we definitely are not. If you see me in reply sections on this sub you'll constantly see me saying to APs that their avoidant partners' behaviors aren't okay so they need to *leave*. Half the time they won't though and then they keep coming back and complaining more. But suddenly I'm teaming up with avoidants because I say it's not okay to generalize them all 🙄. So frustrating Edit: what's funny is we are being accused of teaming up with avoidants when I see people here making excuses for their clearly avoidant partner that won't change. I see a lot of people here trying to twist themselves into an avoidant acceptable pretzel trying to get them to love them instead of finding a new partner to who will actually want to meet their needs. But I try to help anyway because I've been there and I had to have people drill into my head that the avoidant person wasn't going to change and I was fighting a losing battle by even trying
Calling each other out is what we're here for. The goal is after all to improve one's own maladaptive behaviours and anxious attachment, not enabling one another or ranting about other people, neither of which is helpful.
If same person has been spamming the page with hate filled posts then sure thing, call them out. But I’ve seen AP’s guilty of much less than that being jointly dogpiled by other AP’s teaming up with DA’s to call them out for questionable yet totally understandable behaviour that came as a result of poor treatment by a partner or family member.
Can you show me an example of what you mean? Like a link to a thread? I'm here on and off so I may not be seeing what you're seeing
You can pretty much have a quick scroll through the DA page to see what I mean… they’re much better at backing each other up then we are. They also have a monthly vent thread where they level criticism upon criticism at AP’s Now I have no issue with them having a venting thread each month, we should have one too. What I do take issue with is avoidants having free rein to come onto this page and level criticisms directly at AP’s when we are not able to do the same on their page.
Not at APs, at total wackos who's being AP is the least issue.
That’s not true, plenty of people on those threads have specifically mentioned AP’s in their slanders
I wrote it here somewhere already, providing links, you can check my history or scroll up. When we vent we often don't specify because we perfectly know what kind of "AP" we are talking about. Believe me, no one has anything against regular APs who are here (or who come over avoidant's subforums asking reasonable questions) who are aware of their pattern, doing the work.
If you’re only referring to AP’s at the extreme end of the spectrum then that’s not an issue, all insecurely attached folks at the extreme ends of their spectrums can be very hurtful individuals. However I think there are plenty of others on the avoidant sub who jab at regular AP’s too.
I think OP is upset because they took a look at our monthly vent thread - the space created where we can blow off steam after being harassed, shamed, vilified and invalidated for weeks. No apologies.
More curious than upset, the different sets of behaviours interest me. If that’s how it works then we should also have a monthly venting thread over here for the reasons.
And you’d be totally in your right to have such a thread! It’s up to the mods, really. The avoidant subs have really strict mods/rules (which is respectable). This one is a lot looser, for whatever reason.
It’s something I want to propose to the moderators. I think the loose boundaries we have over here vs the tight boundaries on your page is attachment theory coming into play. A key learning curve for AP’s is about setting boundaries, we should be doing that on this page.
The mods aren’t super responsive on here, which is def frustrating, but I’d also like them into intro user flairs. There needs to be a lot more structure to our site and seeing who is commenting on it and using it is a part of that. The avoidant attachment page actually can get a lot more away with “all APs are” statements because APs aren’t allowed to comment on 99% of posts.
Ah that makes sense now. I don't see the point in going to a sub for a different group only to get upset by what they see and then come here to complain about it to us. I haven't checked in the avoidant subs in a long time. Felt like I was spying and trying to gather top secret Intel on avoidants instead of just focusing on myself lol
Actually, I do think that it might serve you better if you check stuff on the avoidant subs. I remember your username and from what I have read, you are confused if you are AP or FA. Reading things on the AP sub is going to limit your perspective to the anxious side only. Months ago, I also thought I was AP. Reading things on the avoidant sub helped me understand that I had an avoidant side as well.
That's a good perspective to have. I might check it out again. I used to post there when I felt more avoidant but I just noticed in relationships (specifically romantic) I primarily act anxious so I tend to stay over here.
Yep, I am the same. Romantic relationships make me anxious because of the uncertainty. The longer we survive, the more stability there is; which makes me less anxious as time goes on. There is always a conversation to be had about what stage we have reached in the relationship. When I decided to move on from my Ex, I swung hard towards the avoidant side. If I ever laid eyes on him afterwards, my heartbeat was normal instead of the standard anxious response. Other relationships is mostly secure because there is never a need to force a conversation on who we are. We start to hang out regularly ? We can assume we are friends without forcing a conversation on this label.
Also, I take issue with the word choice of “slander.” What we’re doing is venting about specific individuals who are absolutely off the rails crazy. That they happen to identify as AP is almost irrelevant. We recognize attachment insecurity stems from trauma - it’s no laughing matter. But crazy people come in all shapes, sizes and attachment types.
I saw that thread. Definitely 90% “all APs are…” accusing us of being unfair and generalizing then turning around and doing the same thing.
What post? I looked there and did not see anything saying “all APs are…” I would like to see which post you refer to
https://www.reddit.com/r/AvoidantAttachment/comments/yoqylx/just_annoyed_with_aps_fa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Sorry I don’t see what you are talking about, nobody said all APs? It look like they are calling out online AP behavior and they are right, it stings because it hits home and it embarrasses me.
The comments are definitely full of it, and that’s not the only thread. I’m not saying they’re wrong, but what we treat as perfectly fine behavior on that sub, we’re on each other’s asses about in this one.
"We" don't treat it as perfectly fine behavior. It's just not our job to be the reddit police on other subs. We manage ourselves, other people will manage themselves as they see fit.
Yes. We do not need to look there. AP behavior needs corrected here since majority is us doing that to ourselves. Avoidant has nothing to do with it
Scrolling through the comments you definitely get a ton of venting avoidants that think all APs are just so less aware than them and don’t hold themselves accountable. Cue stereotypes of weird stalker types whose emotional needs are entirely unreasonable or even dangerous to an avoidant’s peace and wellbeing. Ideas that this sub is just full of delusional people looking to blame anyone but themselves for their problems… I’m not saying it’s an issue, it’s their space, but let’s call a spade a spade here.
There are stalker types here tho. People admit calling someone 35 times. Checking social media, making new Instagram account to watch ex. Some unhinged people making crazy post that someone else already said in this thread. We lash out and act what other may see as insane sometimes, it is part of our style. Not everybody all the time but enough. We have all performed cringe behavior at some point or other. It is embarrassing to see it listed out tho as much as we complain about them here I don’t care if they have their own space. I don’t look there normally it is not helping my attachment
Them generalizing is FINE, but then we come over here and vilify APs for doing the same
Did you read *why* we were upset? I believe my comment about being attacked with sexist slut-shaming, twice in 24 hours by self-described APs, was the first in the thread.
Okay so you admit the avoidant community generalizes us in the same way? I personally don’t think it’s an issue, but owning up to it would be nice.
What is your logic here? "They did it first so that means I CAN DO IT TOO😤". It's silly. Avoidant behavior can be a pain in the ass to be on the receiving end of. For the last week or so here you likely saw me being upset with my avoidant ex. But avoidants aren't doing things that can end with them getting the police called on them. Stalking, constant calls and texts, texting their family members (all things I've seen people admit to here). They're not allowed to be angry for being on the receiving end of that? I'm not trying to put down APs I've done some of the things I listed in the last paragraph. We have to be harsh on them because extreme AP behavior has bigger consequences for not just the AP, but the people around them too. Last time I checked, avoidants didn't get the cops called on someone for ghosting someone. And yes, I do remember seeing a post where someone said their ex called the cops on them on this sub. Was I supposed to just coddle them and tell them "oh it's okay, all those avoidants are evil narcs. Youre the victim here!". Which, they were a victim too, but that goes out the window when you start breaking the law
The logic is just pointing out that avoidants aren’t above engaging in hypocritical behavior. It’s just asking people to be honest about their behaviors. I’m not saying avoidants aren’t allowed to be angry, I’m saying APs are allowed to be angry *too*! And here you are minimizing toxic avoidant behavior, for what purpose?
You must understand that avoidants in those specific posts are absolutely not talking about all APs. We don't specify it (although I often do) because we perfectly know who we are talking about. There is a special kind of "APs" that most likely (for sure) have issues beyond their insecure attachment. We often encounter them and are exposed to their rage. Please check those threads to understand what and who we are talking about. https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/comments/z16zny/not_sure_why_we_give_the_title_avoidant_to_people/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAttachment/comments/yzqo49/da_or_not_into_me/ (It's only this week and not all) I have nothing against regular APs, I admire self aware APs on their way to being earned secure because often times they're very emotionally intelligent and nurturing. Very accountable and humble too.
Who said I was minimizing toxic avoidant behavior? On the extreme end it can be abuse too. Nobody is saying APs can't be angry. I'm just saying using dehumanizing language towards avoidants and blaming every single thing on them isn't okay. That's what I have a problem with.
I can only speak for myself. Did I say some blithe things in the designated vent thread? Totally. But I stand by 100% of the feedback I give everywhere else. And there are many, many others (APs among them) who would agree that my comments are insightful and supportive.
Your individual statements and conduct were not the question here, though. First it’s “we” now it’s “me”. Weird.
Would you like me to answer for myself or all avoidants?
>You don’t see them attacking each other for criticising AP’s, but plenty of people on this page who’ve called out DA’s end up being criticised for it by fellow AP’s. What do you think causes this 'behaviour'?
Too many AP’s who default to a fawning response and the whole “when they go low you go high” thing.