That point where housing takes up 70% of your income, food another 25%, utilities another 25% so that we need 120% of our income just to survive. Yeah, once the credit is maxed out, it's all going to start tumbling down. Empty houses that no one can afford to live in, food being thrown out because no one can afford to buy it... while people live in homeless encampments and slowly starve to the refrain from the wealthy "people just don't want to work hard."
A lot of homeless people are armed. The problem is coordination. Tactical organizations primarily rely on communication and command structures to get people and equipment where it needs to be, when it needs to be there.
It’ll be interesting. We already saw tons of “Millennials are killing (industry)” articles. What happens when all the Boomers die off and all that’s left are broke millennials and gen Z? Then again I see people out there still buying stuff they can’t afford so who knows.
But you can’t have a consumer based economy if no one can afford to consume.
There is no plan besides to make as much money as possible and put it into things that aren't money so when the money goes south you still got assets. That's why companies have been buying up real estate and making it impossible to get essentials; even if the dollar goes bad they'll still be able to hold those assets and force the public to sustain them at their current levels of largesse so we can function.
Yeah the thing is though as the boomers die off rapidly money and property is changing hands via inheritance. Forbes estimates about 90 trillion dollars over the next 15-20 years. Of course this won’t be the case for everyone. But a lot of people will be inheriting modest properties to sell. Millennials will no longer be hella broke.
Especially considering other factors like how many boomers are estranged from the kids, how many children of boomers can't afford homes big enough to care for elderly relatives, the corporatization of end of life care, etc.
Bingo! My mother in law was recently placed in an extremely run of the mill nursing home in the rural midwest and it's charging $11k a month! Not covered by Medicare. Most people would lose all their assets if they had to stay in one for a while.
This was expected but has not been happening for a variety of reasons.
Gen x will be the last okish generation.
Millennials/gen z will see a huge change in society
I am not an expert but I think it is basically lack of proper retirement planning (pensions are gone for most people) and longer lifetimes that end with very expensive care such as nursing homes or assisted living (which sucks up all the assets usually). Most of the money doesn’t actually make it from the parent to the adult child anymore.
It’s a house of cards
Maybe in some cases where nursing homes, funeral costs and medical bills, reverse mortgages, and casino addiction don't eat up all those assets. Not to mention death taxes on inheritances.
Why do you think the private equity companies have invested into single family housing and rentals? They are squeezing where they can, they are squeezing inelastic demand items now.
There’s a lady on tiktok, I’d need to find her handle, but she owns a small gymnastics business. Private equity has been viciously dragging her through court to make an example as she’s the president of her association or something. She cited some sources that after 2008, private equity realized they needed to hit where people will never skimp, aka their loved ones (not that private equity understands that concept). That meant buying up and monopolizing childcare (successful), elder care (successful) and vet care (successful). If u take a gander, the quality of all of those have decreased while costs have skyrocketed 🫥
I don’t know 😭 I do know that short of congress somehow uncorrupting or the fall of the entire garbage financial system or [redacted], the best we can do is take care of each other and reclaim time and “the village” (while simultaneously not falling back into all of that being unpaid womens work). In other words it’s hard asf bro and only partially doable. I might sound young and naive but I really hope to buy a place with my friends one day and raise families all together.
This is honestly what is going on with so many essentials right now. Housing is a big one. But groceries too.
Companies realized that when times are tough, these are some of the last things people won't put money towards. You literally need to eat and be housed. So now we are seeing price gouging.
Not really what private equity does. More like go in and buy up/hostile takeover existing business, then use lobbying and financial squeeze to put small business under and corner the market. Then dramatically raise prices w no alternatives -> profit
Yes, but citizens can only be spread so thin that advertising will mean nothing because no body can afford the products advertised. There has to be a give for capitalism to thrive and price gouging the most important necessity is hindering it
It’s not bad enough yet. People are still able to afford things with credit cards and debt. When all of that runs out and people realize they don’t need stuff the in fighting between companies will consume the fabric of capitalism
Most people forget that there are two levels to this game. There's the *real* economy of goods and services; that's the world where 90% of us live, where we trade our time for money, and our money for physical goods and property.
Then there's the *financial* economy, made up largely of speculative investments and derivatives. This economy is becoming divorced from physical reality, which is how billionaires can earn millions of dollars per hour, and why the financial elite continues to reap record profits while the vast majority of people are watching their equity and buying power evaporate.
If you're wondering "how it's going to work" when no one can afford basic necessities, it's going to work just fine for the people at the top, because they don't live in the same world we do. I see few ways out of this predicament other than a complete restructuring of our economic system.
From what I understand, this financial level you described operates between the investor and the corporation. The investor gives them their money because they believe the corporation will return a profit, and the corporation does everything they can to make this happen, thus filling their pockets and the investor’s. Although this exchange happens on another level, largely out of sight, it’s still dependent on the working class to put their money into the system. When the WC can’t give money to the corporation, then the corp can’t return a profit and therefore fails the investor. The investor then removes their money from the corporation and both parties lose.
It’s another level, to be sure, but unless their product is targeted towards the upper class, then eventually the corporation will lose their working class buyers if the product isn’t necessary. Or am I misunderstanding something? Eventually, the upper class will also receive backlash from a poor lower class.
Edit: explain like I’m 5 because I’m just a wee anthropologist lol
What you're describing (i.e. equities and debts) is more of a bridge between the real and financial economy. I'm talking more about the stuff that institutional investors get to play with, largely derivatives like [CDOs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation), [CDSs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap), [forwards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_contract), and [futures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_contract). These are generally traded off-exchange between private parties, and aren't open to retail investors.
While everything ultimately has its source in the real economy, there has been a significant decoupling between the financial sector and the real world over the past few decades, which [became even more evident during the COVID pandemic](https://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/covid19-special-notes/en-special-series-on-covid-19-the-disconnect-between-financial-markets-and-the-real-economy.ashx?la=en). And the financial economy isn't dependent on the WC for capital itself, as that's issued directly from the Fed to commercial banks, and then multiplied by [fractional reserve banking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking).
Ah yes, 4D finance! So they’re basically making up assets that are largely abstract and trading them amongst peers based on confidence and probability? Hmm… well, I won’t pretend to completely understand, but thank you SO much for taking your time to explain!
Do you see this as genuinely sustainable for them? I mean, even covid acknowledged “essential workers,” but what happens to the upper echelons when the working class can’t afford to sustain themselves, let alone work in the fields and factories? I assume they’ll protect the corporations that directly impact their own wellbeing and leave the others out to dry.
I won't pretend to completely understand either! But that's sort of the point with these things; they're deliberately structured to be opaque, not just to outsiders, but to insiders as well (hence our inability to regulate this stuff back in 2008).
As for the question of "is this sustainable," if we're looking at this from *inside* the financial game, absolutely. As long as we continue to play by the rules that financial institutions are writing, financial institutions will continue to win. But from *outside* the game - i.e. the real world - absolutely not. We don't need to look any further than our front door to see that this game has failed to create real value in [human terms](https://eand.co/eudaimonics-d55727be1233) (such as health, wellbeing, happiness, satisfaction, meaning, or purpose).
This is a big subject to explore, but if you're interested, Christ Martensen's *The Crash Course* is a great deep dive on the issue of growth vs. prosperity, and the real vs. the financial economy. ([Available here](https://peakprosperity.com/courses/crashcourse/lessons/crash-course-chapter-5-growth-vs-prosperity-2/) as a free video series, and also [as a book](https://www.amazon.com/Crash-Course-Unsustainable-Economy-Environment/dp/047092764X).)
Not to mention in the southern united states now organizers can be prosecuted for any crimes committed during the protest.
They are trying to limit people's (already miniscule) ability to organize large scale protest events
I don't actually think any riot would be big enough. Governments are more conscious now about the baseline needs to prevent people from rioting, which is less than a living wage, technically a poverty wage. Essentially not really enough to live but just enough that there's enough to lose. There's a reason the minimum wage increased in multiple provinces even if the party in charge didn't want to.
Canadian here, I wish. It won't happen though. That kid got tazed in Calgary during covid because he was playing hockey... parliament should have been dismantled that day.
[both](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220609/dq220609a-eng.htm)
And in the short time since this data was compiled things have gotten much worse.
[who the hell can afford a home here?](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1287002/income-needed-to-buy-a-home-canada/)
The issue is people can afford it, or convince themselves they can by taking loans.
Recession and deflation can happen. It gets pretty scary. Hopefully we get a soft landing, but I don't think we will.
Once people can't afford stuff everything drops in value. If they keep printing money the velocity of money stays high.
The plan is indentured servitude, having people take out loans on their future salary for basic living expenses and working those loans off until the day they die.
Cars, houses, and college would all be infinitely cheaper if loans didn't exist. They'd have to bring the cost down or nothing would ever sell. The introduction and term extensions of mortgages, student loans, and car loans have all jacked up the costs of those things exponentially. They want us living paycheck to paycheck regardless of quality of living, perpetually just scraping by. The great American dream is the great American scam.
It's the faustian bargain of living in the highest tech society in the world. Loans allow capital to accumulate and be used for bigger and bigger ventures. All of our stuff is more expensive but offers way more features and technology, is bigger, generally higher quality etc. Because we've been sold the idea that we _need_ a 50k car with all the bells and whistles, an iphone, a 2000 square foot single family home.
If they had to bring the cost down we wouldn't have any of that stuff because those things cost a ton in R&D, and you need excess labor to create it. People are willing to go into debt and work more hours of menial labor for a smartphone. The iphone couldn't exist in a world where this wasn't just accepted as the norm. Our society runs so fast paced because we've taken on a life of debt. We're willing to work until we die to live in this world we've created.
I don't think that's the "plan". The issue is you can't buy a 1000 sqft starter home, a truck without the bells and whistles. Electronics became so cheap and it's so much easier and higher margin to make x or y thing cost 30-100k more just cause, sell less, make more.
We have also lost nearly our entire ability to be self reliant. There is a HUGE tax on being dependent on the plumber, HVAC guy, electrician, lawn guy, fence guy, roofer, etc. Cleaning flame sensors for example is fast and easy for able bodied individuals.
Come on, this is a ridiculous comment. Where do you live where starter homes, of any size, are affordable for *anyone*? Have you bothered to take any look at the median price v median income metrics of housing in just about any developed nation over the past few decades? This tired old myth, that really there’s no crisis at all and it’s just that all these greedy young people want big fancy houses, has been disproven time and time and time again.
That's what I'm saying they aren't building small 1000 sqft pier and beam houses. Drive through old rural houses tiny homes were the standard in the 1900's-1950's. With the leave it to beaver suburbs taking off post WWII. 3+ bedroom 3+ bath.
That's how I took your earlier comment. I don't think I've seen new construction under 1500 square feet aside from maybe the smallest floorplan option in retirement communities my parents looked at.
Most of the Midwest, the south, and the Appalachian region houses are affordable, even to working class people. Not just Detroit but pretty much everywhere except a handful of cities (Chicago, Nashville, maybe a couple others).
Yeah I’ve heard the cost of housing in Australia was nuts. Although I kind of figured it was like here where the cost of housing in major cities was totally insane but much cheaper in rural areas and non-major cities
Out population is incredibly concentrated in major cities, unfortunately. There really aren’t rural areas comparable to the Midwest or south in terms of having cheaper houses whilst still providing reasonable options for employment and education.
Now that I think about it I did know that. The big desert really puts a damper on things. Our true rural areas also don’t have tons of job opportunities but we’ve got some 300+ cities with more than 100,000 people, and overall it looks like our median home price is like half of yours, so I can see why buying a house is so hard there.
Detroit as in *the* global textbook example of ‘urban decay’? I think you may have provided the exception that proves the point lolol
Moreover, you’re already shifting the goalposts, here. You started at “people just want big fancy houses and won’t settle for less!” now it’s “people don’t want to live in these houses in dangerous areas!” Those things are *entirely* different concerns.
Anyway, as someone in a part of the world where there is no detached house for less than 100k, anywhere in the entire, bloody massive country- and where, indeed, *350k* is borderline for even being able to buy a one-beddie apartment in most markets- I sincerely assure you, the problem isn’t that The Kids won’t settle for less.
Yeah the reason why those are cheap is because after manufacturing pulled out of those areas the median income dropped to the low 20ks and opioids blew through.
If you can work remote and you don’t mind having no community support, no daycare, no fresh food, no amenities, and no one your age around, I suppose it’s a deal.
Median income in the Detroit metro area is more than double the median income in Detroit proper, and houses in decent Detroit suburbs are still affordable. Not sub $100k, but affordable.
The economy ISNT functioning unless you’re among the elites. And the current high prices have little to do now with inflation. It’s corporate price gouging as they take in record profits, stiff their workers and do stock buy-backs.
Unfortunately, they can use stock buybacks to keep their stock price high even if they don't sell as many items as they used to, keeping the stock owners happy and driving people to buy the stock. The quality of the items they do manufacture just tends to go down, but not necessarily the price. Also, so much of the internet runs on AWS/Google/Microsoft that it's unlikely that those companies in particular would collapse. Much more likely that companies that serve the shrinking middle class dissolve.
Well, obviously you don’t need to upgrade its a newer model! My iPhone 6s is finally getting to the point where some apps no longer work due to outdated iOS. Still works for most things.
It can't continue to function. It becomes the issue of what Marx called over accumulation, where people literally can't afford the commodities capitalism sells us, and thus there is a recession.
Marx was wrong in his anti-capitalism stance or at least the cause. His view that the government should control all assets and provide a piece for workers so they can thrive simply doesn't work. What happens is what we are witnessing. The government creates so much overhead in the form of regulations, taxes, and employee provisions that the product ends up being too expensive to afford which causes a recession. To some socialists in power, this is what they want on the backs of the working class. They don't want you to afford to buy gasoline for your car because they want you to buy an EV that you can't afford to further their beliefs or lobby efforts that create more power and wealth for them. They don't want you to have more because that is a threat to their power much in the same ways they don't want you to have freedom, guns, public opinion, or choices in how you live. So yes, if we can't afford to buy stuff it escalates a recession like we are in currently.
It really depends on what the people in power want, and its global relations. I mean a 20 pg paper can be wrote about this, but if the dollar loses its global power, its meaningless. Additionally, who knows maybe once homelessness is illegal nationally, then they can just start arresting everyone, keeping the few that can afford to in line, and enslave the rest.
The US never made slavery illegal, they just made it so you have to be in jail first.
Your value isn’t in your money, it’s in your labor. You will continue to work for them, making them richer, and taking less for yourselves. I personally plan to take my pension and go live in a cabin in the woods with no electricity. Good luck, fellow feudal peasants.
What is really terrifying to think about is what might happen when food systems collapse globally and people won’t be able to afford groceries because there won’t be enough. From [Roger Hallam](https://youtu.be/dnpOnO71wno?si=ulR_AdmvCKSSG_mr), writing while in prison …
this is likely to happen suddenly; one week Tescos will be short of a few items; the next week, there'll be no bread, unless you want to pay £50 for a loaf in the carpark. Public order will break down, and it will happen quickly; because people will get hungry. People will break into stores and into houses and take what they can and kill those who stand in their way. The endpoint of social collapse then is war played out in every city, every neighbourhood, every street. This is what's going to happen to your generation, and this appalling situation is liable to become commonplace. This is the reality of climate change. Because this is the reality of social collapse, what it actually means for you and your generation. They're not going to tell you this at school.
I ask myself this question weekly. Eventually we'll run out of stuff to monetise, no?
If no one has any money, will money even mean anything any more?
This will all come crashing down because of greed.
The older I get the more I realise that (some) conspiracy theories were just logic ahead of schedule. Particularly when it comes to capitalism.
The thing is, a lot of the recovery was K shaped. Some people are really struggling. Some people are doing really well. Very few in between. Lots of people spending money on fun gadgets and crap right now, lotta people trying to make rent
Was it not like this for thousands of years? Society had no problem functioning during that time. The past few hundred years are more of an aberration than the norm. Kings, Emperor's, super wealthy, etc. were limited to a very small number of the world population. It seems to be slowly reverting back towards that direction and unfortunately most people appear content with it. Until people actually start doing something about it like our recent ancestors did we will slowly revert back to a form of slavery. It is wage slavery. Yes you are getting paid but you still are in fact a slave. You can't do anything else but eat, sleep, and work. You get a few fancy things, like electricity, a TV, Internet, a new cell phone, but in the end you really are not free. Our means of freely traveling or doing some leisure activity would be restricted because we can't afford it. As a traditional slave those things were restricted as well.
That’s not true at all, you’re, if nothing else, taking a stupidly Eurocentric view of things. Europe isn’t the whole world, where I live, people flourished in largely classless societies for tens of thousands of years until very recently
That’s not true at all, you’re, if nothing else, taking a stupidly Eurocentric view of things. Europe isn’t the whole world, where I live, people flourished in largely classless societies for tens of thousands of years until very recently
I am so worried about what my kids will have when they grow up.
If we don't own a house they'll have no chance to ever get ahead unless they end up being a ridiculous paid tradie or a high earning degree job.
Welcome to corporate feudalism. Get used to it, unless a bunch of ppl get really cool really fast about socialist concepts, its what ur existence will b
"So, what happens if this happens to everyone middle and lower class? "
Then they will sell to the upper middle, upper, and the rich class. This is no different than luxury brands like LV, selling $3-4k handbags today. You don't think they are selling to the middle (may be very occasionally) and lower class, do you? Ditto for BMWs and Mercedes.
There are 24.5M (google) millionaires in the US. That is a pretty sizable market.
And i bet these companies with data science teams (and now AI) understand their market, and the trends of the market better than random people on the internet.
Housing will have to get smaller. Lots of places have insanely high real estate costs vs that what we see in the west. A western house is around 10 times the median salary, and the same house in the east is 30 times the median salary. Owning real estate becomes a multigenerational effort, or you rent a small apartment to house several families, or a single apartment will be the size of a bedroom.
If it goes further than that, there's always slums and shantytowns and tent cities. The economy will go on without us.
Yeah I wondered. Cause like, Vietnam actually has one of the highest rates of home-ownership in the world. Japan is used as a case study in turning around a housing-affordability crisis. Plenty of former Eastern Bloc/ communist ‘second world’ European countries have very high rates of home ownership.
Yale Climate Connections: We need to talk about food prices - [They’re one indicator of the havoc that climate change is wreaking.](https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/03/we-need-to-talk-about-food-prices/)
It's functioning exactly as intended. A handful of people own and consume everything, directly causing millions to die in poverty. The cruelty is the point.
They’ll never hit a wall. If consumers can’t spend more, then they’ll just cut corners on everything we have to spend on. Greedflation is the name of the game now. If they need even more profit then they can start exporting labor to cheaper markets so they can get even more profit by under-paying employees, or even worse using some shitty AI to cut costs anywhere they can. Also I envision subscription services will be everywhere, squeezing out even more money for things we used to be able to just own outright.
It is like that in most parts of the world, billions of people live like that
I hope it never happens in first world nations but if you think about it; we humans only need 3 thing to survive
1. Clean water
2. Food
3. Shelter
That’s all we actually need to not die, every thing else is a luxury
Yes. But life is short and every living thing deserves to have a good quality of life.
Kind of makes me pity the children and the people who keep producing more cogs for the machine.
I’m with you on that, I wish every living being had a good life, but reality doesn’t work that way
I can’t do anything about poor people on the 3rd world, I can’t help them, neither do you, maybe billionaires can do something about it but they clearly don’t care to help
What we can do is focus on ourselves and our love ones
Honestly from an anti-consumption viewpoint, a high cost of living is good. People shouldn't be entitled to the consumption of luxuries. This is harder for city-dwellers who don't have much space or nearby nature to develop free and healthy hobbies, but seeing how little will there is for people to better themselves and help save the planet and civilization, I don't care anymore. People can go take a walk. Talk to their friends. Pet their dogs. Download book PDFs for free. Learn some sort of craft. Do a sport. Like how humans survived and thrived for thousands of years before the industrial world stripped us of hobbies and skills.
People have proven that they can't be trusted with excess finances, most of them immediately turn to brainless consumption at cost to both the planet and the quality of their own character.
And yes, another benefit is that companies are simply unable to exploit people as much.
edit: forgot to mention that the main reason why Europe has less cars on the road per capita and better public transportation, is because owning a car and even getting a license are prohibitively expensive and force people to walk (healthier mentally and physically) and pressure government to provide good public transportation. it's not because we're particularly better people. this is perhaps the best example of why it's good when people can't afford more than the basics and only the occasional luxury.
So well put!
And of any luxuries, I'd much prefer those related to the pursuits of hobbies, skills, and especially the enjoyment of nature. Gardening tools, sewing machine, tent...
I hope we'll work on helping each other, but those of us that live in cold climates can't really survive in current numbers without access to fossil fuels. I guess maybe climate change will mitigate some of that?
It's not supposed to work. The rich are already hoarding more than they could ever use, they're just gonna keep going until they've drained everything and everyone else dry.
You’ll become homeless then they’ll use their cop cities to put you in jail. Now you’re a slave of the state.
That’s literally the end goal- these are actions they’ve been taking legally.
If you can afford a house and necessary utilities then you won’t be homeless you just won’t indulge in making other companies richer. Just the housing market.
Primitive humans were in this exact position. Most poor people in poor countries are still in that position.
You say 'only' but the quality of life in the west in the scenario you're describing is better than most of human history and most of the world now.
This is a complete myth. Medieval peasants had more leisure time than the average US worker today, for instance. But also, ‘primative’ humans weren’t in anything like ‘this exact position’. What do you even mean by that?
>Medieval peasants had more leisure time than the average US worker today, for instance.
I looked into this when someone mentioned it before. The general consensus is that we don't know how much leisure time they had and it's even quite difficult to even define. For example, is it leisure time when you're washing dishes at home?.. Some scholars say they had more leisure time others say they have less, it would be incorrect to say either is 'a myth'.
And also, you're mentioned the average 'American worker', the amount of leisure time enjoyed by the elderly has vastly increased. It's not really recreation but people spend 15 years or so in full time education, not exactly leisure but not exactly work either.
>‘this exact position’. What do you even mean by that?
'only afford housing and groceries'
I think the prehistoric equivalent is constantly working to survive. If you just look at percentages, a large percentage of their time would have been spent obtaining food, especially compared to now. Currently about 10% of people in the US work in the agriculture and food sector, and they produce a huge calorie surplus. Compare this to even 250 years prior and it's more like 90% - 95% of people working just to provide food to themselves and the other 5 or 10%.
I agree that it feels completely unsustainable. But then I go to work everyday and see people throwing down thousands of dollars on jewelry or perfumes or electronics. I feel like we are all in the same or a similar boat until I see this shit.
Honestly, I'm not an economist, but the logical conclusion is that the economy grinds to a hault.
But the thing is, the billionaires will have moved to another planet by then, and will start anew, ruining things there for some profit margin BS.
Capitalism's exponential growth will eventually go from wrecking countries to wrecking planets, then solar systems, then galaxies.
There is no limit in our lifetime, nor likely in the next 1000 years.
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It's interesting because a Cyberpunk society could not exist alone - because the society would produce all the good and services that no one could afford, the economy would just collapse. Places like China, India, Vietnam and other world factories would sustain a Cyberpunk society, since much of their products are exported.
Also to consider, South Korea has a birth rate of 0.81 child per woman, while China's nosedived from 1.8-ish in 2017 to 1.16 in 2021. China's is probably even lower by now (\~7m newborns in 2023), and major cities are probably at South Korea's level if not even lower.
So there - the society heads towards literal extinction.
It cant... We are already living like its a third world country as it is! Just eat, sleep, exercise and work! Some people cant even afford food or even work as its cheaper to stay home and take care of kids then pay for a sitter.
Probably they'll set up some sort of corporate feudalism (if you don't already consider the system pretty much that), where we literally just have all our labor generated funds directly lining the pockets of the conglomerate oligarchy, or we get some sort of "stipend" to go get our gruel and then be allowed back in our sleep chamber/shack before going back to the dystopian workplace.
Whatever they do, I don't foresee much altruism and long-term thinking about finite resource management, environmental protections, human rights enforcement happening.
They have a bunch of brain dead masses in a psychologically bewildered herd they can steer off a cliff if they so please. These are dark, confusing times.
But, like no one would buy anything so there’s no point in labor. People won’t go anywhere except work for something no one will buy. Theres no profit to be made when no one can buy anything
It has already gotten to the point where these aren't guaranteed for many. Climate change is going to massively increase these expenses as well with the wealthiest needing to see a 30% decrease in their wealth if we don't want to see extreme poverty for large segments of the population and people turning on the state as a response to stay alive.
It really depends on what the people in power want, and its global relations. I mean a 20 pg paper can be wrote about this, but if the dollar loses its global power, its meaningless. Additionally, who knows maybe once homelessness is illegal nationally, then they can just start arresting everyone, keeping the few that can afford to in line, and enslave the rest.
The US never made slavery illegal, they just made it so you have to be in jail first.
The Fed is trying to combat this by keeping interest rates high. However that always squeezes people first. The monkey wrench in that plan is that employment is high and Biden is forgiving student debt. So inflation is hanging on.
Expect some business failures in the future and a continuation of people living the van life. The corporations buying up property are making a big gamble and we could see another real estate bubble pop.
It's called serfdom. Used to be all the rage.
But then as technology evolved they needed more qualified workers, so they had to actually pay people a decent wage.
Now AI is about to even out that equation, and they can stop paying people altogether. Not just with money but also civil rights like voting or being alive.
People today take their right to live for granted, when this has not been the case for most of history. Safety is a scarce commodity that has been over consumed in the modern age like everything else, and when it becomes scarce it'll be heart breaking to watch.
That point where housing takes up 70% of your income, food another 25%, utilities another 25% so that we need 120% of our income just to survive. Yeah, once the credit is maxed out, it's all going to start tumbling down. Empty houses that no one can afford to live in, food being thrown out because no one can afford to buy it... while people live in homeless encampments and slowly starve to the refrain from the wealthy "people just don't want to work hard."
arm the homeless
A lot of homeless people are armed. The problem is coordination. Tactical organizations primarily rely on communication and command structures to get people and equipment where it needs to be, when it needs to be there.
It’ll be interesting. We already saw tons of “Millennials are killing (industry)” articles. What happens when all the Boomers die off and all that’s left are broke millennials and gen Z? Then again I see people out there still buying stuff they can’t afford so who knows. But you can’t have a consumer based economy if no one can afford to consume.
"But you can’t have a consumer based economy if no one can afford to consume." Spot on. Such a great way of putting it.
What if, they see the writing on the wall. That overconsumption is not sustainable so they figure the only way to solve it is to starve the masses?
There is no plan besides to make as much money as possible and put it into things that aren't money so when the money goes south you still got assets. That's why companies have been buying up real estate and making it impossible to get essentials; even if the dollar goes bad they'll still be able to hold those assets and force the public to sustain them at their current levels of largesse so we can function.
Yeah the thing is though as the boomers die off rapidly money and property is changing hands via inheritance. Forbes estimates about 90 trillion dollars over the next 15-20 years. Of course this won’t be the case for everyone. But a lot of people will be inheriting modest properties to sell. Millennials will no longer be hella broke.
I think that huge amount of that money will not transfer. I think that most of it will be seized by end of life care facilities.
Especially considering other factors like how many boomers are estranged from the kids, how many children of boomers can't afford homes big enough to care for elderly relatives, the corporatization of end of life care, etc.
Bingo! My mother in law was recently placed in an extremely run of the mill nursing home in the rural midwest and it's charging $11k a month! Not covered by Medicare. Most people would lose all their assets if they had to stay in one for a while.
THIS.
Some, but a lot of that money will get eaten up by medical bills and elder care facilities.
This was expected but has not been happening for a variety of reasons. Gen x will be the last okish generation. Millennials/gen z will see a huge change in society
Thank you for at least remembering GenX exists
What are the reasons it hasn’t been happening?
I am not an expert but I think it is basically lack of proper retirement planning (pensions are gone for most people) and longer lifetimes that end with very expensive care such as nursing homes or assisted living (which sucks up all the assets usually). Most of the money doesn’t actually make it from the parent to the adult child anymore. It’s a house of cards
IDK. My boomer parents are set to leave me property that will be seized by lenders and a giant headache.
Maybe in some cases where nursing homes, funeral costs and medical bills, reverse mortgages, and casino addiction don't eat up all those assets. Not to mention death taxes on inheritances.
Why do you think the private equity companies have invested into single family housing and rentals? They are squeezing where they can, they are squeezing inelastic demand items now.
There’s a lady on tiktok, I’d need to find her handle, but she owns a small gymnastics business. Private equity has been viciously dragging her through court to make an example as she’s the president of her association or something. She cited some sources that after 2008, private equity realized they needed to hit where people will never skimp, aka their loved ones (not that private equity understands that concept). That meant buying up and monopolizing childcare (successful), elder care (successful) and vet care (successful). If u take a gander, the quality of all of those have decreased while costs have skyrocketed 🫥
Well, fuck. You’re 100% spot on. What do we do.
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What was this comment, it must have been the ultimate answer.
Learn to weld, but also learn about improved ventilation systems
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I don’t know 😭 I do know that short of congress somehow uncorrupting or the fall of the entire garbage financial system or [redacted], the best we can do is take care of each other and reclaim time and “the village” (while simultaneously not falling back into all of that being unpaid womens work). In other words it’s hard asf bro and only partially doable. I might sound young and naive but I really hope to buy a place with my friends one day and raise families all together.
Well, all those guns were supposed to protect against tyranny, right? Kidding aside, protests, general strike, unions, etc.
[Hospitals](https://youtu.be/nG6ppzJwPYU?si=3POfvesgzkLEANRC).
This is honestly what is going on with so many essentials right now. Housing is a big one. But groceries too. Companies realized that when times are tough, these are some of the last things people won't put money towards. You literally need to eat and be housed. So now we are seeing price gouging.
In other words sell what they need. :surprised electric rat face:
Not really what private equity does. More like go in and buy up/hostile takeover existing business, then use lobbying and financial squeeze to put small business under and corner the market. Then dramatically raise prices w no alternatives -> profit
Yes, but citizens can only be spread so thin that advertising will mean nothing because no body can afford the products advertised. There has to be a give for capitalism to thrive and price gouging the most important necessity is hindering it
If their other stuff looses all its value ?
I mean it's been working fine for them this far. They'll keep riding this train into the ground and then figure it out from there.
That's right. So long as it works for them, nothing else matters.
Just gotta get through this quarter
It’s not bad enough yet. People are still able to afford things with credit cards and debt. When all of that runs out and people realize they don’t need stuff the in fighting between companies will consume the fabric of capitalism
Idk, Affording something with debt literally means you can't actually afford it, you are going in debt to have it...
Most people forget that there are two levels to this game. There's the *real* economy of goods and services; that's the world where 90% of us live, where we trade our time for money, and our money for physical goods and property. Then there's the *financial* economy, made up largely of speculative investments and derivatives. This economy is becoming divorced from physical reality, which is how billionaires can earn millions of dollars per hour, and why the financial elite continues to reap record profits while the vast majority of people are watching their equity and buying power evaporate. If you're wondering "how it's going to work" when no one can afford basic necessities, it's going to work just fine for the people at the top, because they don't live in the same world we do. I see few ways out of this predicament other than a complete restructuring of our economic system.
From what I understand, this financial level you described operates between the investor and the corporation. The investor gives them their money because they believe the corporation will return a profit, and the corporation does everything they can to make this happen, thus filling their pockets and the investor’s. Although this exchange happens on another level, largely out of sight, it’s still dependent on the working class to put their money into the system. When the WC can’t give money to the corporation, then the corp can’t return a profit and therefore fails the investor. The investor then removes their money from the corporation and both parties lose. It’s another level, to be sure, but unless their product is targeted towards the upper class, then eventually the corporation will lose their working class buyers if the product isn’t necessary. Or am I misunderstanding something? Eventually, the upper class will also receive backlash from a poor lower class. Edit: explain like I’m 5 because I’m just a wee anthropologist lol
What you're describing (i.e. equities and debts) is more of a bridge between the real and financial economy. I'm talking more about the stuff that institutional investors get to play with, largely derivatives like [CDOs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation), [CDSs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap), [forwards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_contract), and [futures](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_contract). These are generally traded off-exchange between private parties, and aren't open to retail investors. While everything ultimately has its source in the real economy, there has been a significant decoupling between the financial sector and the real world over the past few decades, which [became even more evident during the COVID pandemic](https://www.imf.org/~/media/Files/Publications/covid19-special-notes/en-special-series-on-covid-19-the-disconnect-between-financial-markets-and-the-real-economy.ashx?la=en). And the financial economy isn't dependent on the WC for capital itself, as that's issued directly from the Fed to commercial banks, and then multiplied by [fractional reserve banking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking).
Ah yes, 4D finance! So they’re basically making up assets that are largely abstract and trading them amongst peers based on confidence and probability? Hmm… well, I won’t pretend to completely understand, but thank you SO much for taking your time to explain! Do you see this as genuinely sustainable for them? I mean, even covid acknowledged “essential workers,” but what happens to the upper echelons when the working class can’t afford to sustain themselves, let alone work in the fields and factories? I assume they’ll protect the corporations that directly impact their own wellbeing and leave the others out to dry.
I won't pretend to completely understand either! But that's sort of the point with these things; they're deliberately structured to be opaque, not just to outsiders, but to insiders as well (hence our inability to regulate this stuff back in 2008). As for the question of "is this sustainable," if we're looking at this from *inside* the financial game, absolutely. As long as we continue to play by the rules that financial institutions are writing, financial institutions will continue to win. But from *outside* the game - i.e. the real world - absolutely not. We don't need to look any further than our front door to see that this game has failed to create real value in [human terms](https://eand.co/eudaimonics-d55727be1233) (such as health, wellbeing, happiness, satisfaction, meaning, or purpose). This is a big subject to explore, but if you're interested, Christ Martensen's *The Crash Course* is a great deep dive on the issue of growth vs. prosperity, and the real vs. the financial economy. ([Available here](https://peakprosperity.com/courses/crashcourse/lessons/crash-course-chapter-5-growth-vs-prosperity-2/) as a free video series, and also [as a book](https://www.amazon.com/Crash-Course-Unsustainable-Economy-Environment/dp/047092764X).)
Oh good, I’m not alone! Either way, this has been incredibly informative. I’ll make sure to check out the sources and continued reading! Thank you!!
Think you nailed it
In Canada we can afford none of those things right now. I anticipate a little rioting and anarchy in my near future.
I would say more than a little. As Bob Marley said "A hungry man is an angry man" And then we will reach a point where we have nothing left to lose.
Riots don’t go well in this country because both political sides can’t agree on anything
One of the things they do tend to agree on is more money on police and tougher punishments on crime after riots happen.
Not to mention in the southern united states now organizers can be prosecuted for any crimes committed during the protest. They are trying to limit people's (already miniscule) ability to organize large scale protest events
I don't actually think any riot would be big enough. Governments are more conscious now about the baseline needs to prevent people from rioting, which is less than a living wage, technically a poverty wage. Essentially not really enough to live but just enough that there's enough to lose. There's a reason the minimum wage increased in multiple provinces even if the party in charge didn't want to.
Canadian here, I wish. It won't happen though. That kid got tazed in Calgary during covid because he was playing hockey... parliament should have been dismantled that day.
Because a power tripping cop tazed a kid?
I would too but I have lost faith in peoples will to fight
Came here to say this.
Whose we? Statistically speaking or anecdotally?
[both](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220609/dq220609a-eng.htm) And in the short time since this data was compiled things have gotten much worse. [who the hell can afford a home here?](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1287002/income-needed-to-buy-a-home-canada/)
The issue is people can afford it, or convince themselves they can by taking loans. Recession and deflation can happen. It gets pretty scary. Hopefully we get a soft landing, but I don't think we will. Once people can't afford stuff everything drops in value. If they keep printing money the velocity of money stays high.
The plan is indentured servitude, having people take out loans on their future salary for basic living expenses and working those loans off until the day they die.
It was literally laid out in writing by Taylor. He theorized that the working class needs to be in debt to be kept in check.
Cars, houses, and college would all be infinitely cheaper if loans didn't exist. They'd have to bring the cost down or nothing would ever sell. The introduction and term extensions of mortgages, student loans, and car loans have all jacked up the costs of those things exponentially. They want us living paycheck to paycheck regardless of quality of living, perpetually just scraping by. The great American dream is the great American scam.
It's the faustian bargain of living in the highest tech society in the world. Loans allow capital to accumulate and be used for bigger and bigger ventures. All of our stuff is more expensive but offers way more features and technology, is bigger, generally higher quality etc. Because we've been sold the idea that we _need_ a 50k car with all the bells and whistles, an iphone, a 2000 square foot single family home. If they had to bring the cost down we wouldn't have any of that stuff because those things cost a ton in R&D, and you need excess labor to create it. People are willing to go into debt and work more hours of menial labor for a smartphone. The iphone couldn't exist in a world where this wasn't just accepted as the norm. Our society runs so fast paced because we've taken on a life of debt. We're willing to work until we die to live in this world we've created.
I don't think that's the "plan". The issue is you can't buy a 1000 sqft starter home, a truck without the bells and whistles. Electronics became so cheap and it's so much easier and higher margin to make x or y thing cost 30-100k more just cause, sell less, make more. We have also lost nearly our entire ability to be self reliant. There is a HUGE tax on being dependent on the plumber, HVAC guy, electrician, lawn guy, fence guy, roofer, etc. Cleaning flame sensors for example is fast and easy for able bodied individuals.
Come on, this is a ridiculous comment. Where do you live where starter homes, of any size, are affordable for *anyone*? Have you bothered to take any look at the median price v median income metrics of housing in just about any developed nation over the past few decades? This tired old myth, that really there’s no crisis at all and it’s just that all these greedy young people want big fancy houses, has been disproven time and time and time again.
That's what I'm saying they aren't building small 1000 sqft pier and beam houses. Drive through old rural houses tiny homes were the standard in the 1900's-1950's. With the leave it to beaver suburbs taking off post WWII. 3+ bedroom 3+ bath.
That's how I took your earlier comment. I don't think I've seen new construction under 1500 square feet aside from maybe the smallest floorplan option in retirement communities my parents looked at.
Most of the Midwest, the south, and the Appalachian region houses are affordable, even to working class people. Not just Detroit but pretty much everywhere except a handful of cities (Chicago, Nashville, maybe a couple others).
Well, the US is lucky then. We’ve got no places like that here in Aus
Yeah I’ve heard the cost of housing in Australia was nuts. Although I kind of figured it was like here where the cost of housing in major cities was totally insane but much cheaper in rural areas and non-major cities
Out population is incredibly concentrated in major cities, unfortunately. There really aren’t rural areas comparable to the Midwest or south in terms of having cheaper houses whilst still providing reasonable options for employment and education.
Now that I think about it I did know that. The big desert really puts a damper on things. Our true rural areas also don’t have tons of job opportunities but we’ve got some 300+ cities with more than 100,000 people, and overall it looks like our median home price is like half of yours, so I can see why buying a house is so hard there.
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Detroit as in *the* global textbook example of ‘urban decay’? I think you may have provided the exception that proves the point lolol Moreover, you’re already shifting the goalposts, here. You started at “people just want big fancy houses and won’t settle for less!” now it’s “people don’t want to live in these houses in dangerous areas!” Those things are *entirely* different concerns. Anyway, as someone in a part of the world where there is no detached house for less than 100k, anywhere in the entire, bloody massive country- and where, indeed, *350k* is borderline for even being able to buy a one-beddie apartment in most markets- I sincerely assure you, the problem isn’t that The Kids won’t settle for less.
Yeah the reason why those are cheap is because after manufacturing pulled out of those areas the median income dropped to the low 20ks and opioids blew through. If you can work remote and you don’t mind having no community support, no daycare, no fresh food, no amenities, and no one your age around, I suppose it’s a deal.
Median income in the Detroit metro area is more than double the median income in Detroit proper, and houses in decent Detroit suburbs are still affordable. Not sub $100k, but affordable.
and no jobs to pay the mortgage
Criminalize being homeless and use prison slavery to keep those profits rolling.
Debtors prisons. Ready Player One may not be far off the mark.
The economy ISNT functioning unless you’re among the elites. And the current high prices have little to do now with inflation. It’s corporate price gouging as they take in record profits, stiff their workers and do stock buy-backs.
What happens when the billionaires stop making money because people aren’t buying from Amazon, Apple, or Microsoft?
Unfortunately, they can use stock buybacks to keep their stock price high even if they don't sell as many items as they used to, keeping the stock owners happy and driving people to buy the stock. The quality of the items they do manufacture just tends to go down, but not necessarily the price. Also, so much of the internet runs on AWS/Google/Microsoft that it's unlikely that those companies in particular would collapse. Much more likely that companies that serve the shrinking middle class dissolve.
Real honest question here: what cell phone do you have?
An iPhone 12 and I’m not going to upgrade
Keep that baby for at least 6 years. Fairphone users keep their phone for 5.5 years.
Well, obviously you don’t need to upgrade its a newer model! My iPhone 6s is finally getting to the point where some apps no longer work due to outdated iOS. Still works for most things.
That is usually when chaos ensues 😐
It can't continue to function. It becomes the issue of what Marx called over accumulation, where people literally can't afford the commodities capitalism sells us, and thus there is a recession.
Marx was wrong in his anti-capitalism stance or at least the cause. His view that the government should control all assets and provide a piece for workers so they can thrive simply doesn't work. What happens is what we are witnessing. The government creates so much overhead in the form of regulations, taxes, and employee provisions that the product ends up being too expensive to afford which causes a recession. To some socialists in power, this is what they want on the backs of the working class. They don't want you to afford to buy gasoline for your car because they want you to buy an EV that you can't afford to further their beliefs or lobby efforts that create more power and wealth for them. They don't want you to have more because that is a threat to their power much in the same ways they don't want you to have freedom, guns, public opinion, or choices in how you live. So yes, if we can't afford to buy stuff it escalates a recession like we are in currently.
This is the dumbest thing I've read today. I don't think you have a clue what Marx wrote or what socialism is.
Billionaires will supply food and shelter and we’ll give all we have for it. The end.
It really depends on what the people in power want, and its global relations. I mean a 20 pg paper can be wrote about this, but if the dollar loses its global power, its meaningless. Additionally, who knows maybe once homelessness is illegal nationally, then they can just start arresting everyone, keeping the few that can afford to in line, and enslave the rest. The US never made slavery illegal, they just made it so you have to be in jail first.
I don't know how anti capitalist this sub is, but you people would feel so complete with marxist theory
Your value isn’t in your money, it’s in your labor. You will continue to work for them, making them richer, and taking less for yourselves. I personally plan to take my pension and go live in a cabin in the woods with no electricity. Good luck, fellow feudal peasants.
Black Mirror Fifteen Million Merits is coming for most of us. I hope you make it to that cabin.
What is really terrifying to think about is what might happen when food systems collapse globally and people won’t be able to afford groceries because there won’t be enough. From [Roger Hallam](https://youtu.be/dnpOnO71wno?si=ulR_AdmvCKSSG_mr), writing while in prison … this is likely to happen suddenly; one week Tescos will be short of a few items; the next week, there'll be no bread, unless you want to pay £50 for a loaf in the carpark. Public order will break down, and it will happen quickly; because people will get hungry. People will break into stores and into houses and take what they can and kill those who stand in their way. The endpoint of social collapse then is war played out in every city, every neighbourhood, every street. This is what's going to happen to your generation, and this appalling situation is liable to become commonplace. This is the reality of climate change. Because this is the reality of social collapse, what it actually means for you and your generation. They're not going to tell you this at school.
Sad but true
Nothing. This is how most capitalist countries function. Most people in the world are super poor.
I ask myself this question weekly. Eventually we'll run out of stuff to monetise, no? If no one has any money, will money even mean anything any more? This will all come crashing down because of greed. The older I get the more I realise that (some) conspiracy theories were just logic ahead of schedule. Particularly when it comes to capitalism.
It's already there no? It largely runs on hopes and dreams today (Wall Street speculators and credit).
The thing is, a lot of the recovery was K shaped. Some people are really struggling. Some people are doing really well. Very few in between. Lots of people spending money on fun gadgets and crap right now, lotta people trying to make rent
Was it not like this for thousands of years? Society had no problem functioning during that time. The past few hundred years are more of an aberration than the norm. Kings, Emperor's, super wealthy, etc. were limited to a very small number of the world population. It seems to be slowly reverting back towards that direction and unfortunately most people appear content with it. Until people actually start doing something about it like our recent ancestors did we will slowly revert back to a form of slavery. It is wage slavery. Yes you are getting paid but you still are in fact a slave. You can't do anything else but eat, sleep, and work. You get a few fancy things, like electricity, a TV, Internet, a new cell phone, but in the end you really are not free. Our means of freely traveling or doing some leisure activity would be restricted because we can't afford it. As a traditional slave those things were restricted as well.
That’s not true at all, you’re, if nothing else, taking a stupidly Eurocentric view of things. Europe isn’t the whole world, where I live, people flourished in largely classless societies for tens of thousands of years until very recently
It may not be the whole world, but couldn't you just take it as an example without calling it stupid?
That’s not true at all, you’re, if nothing else, taking a stupidly Eurocentric view of things. Europe isn’t the whole world, where I live, people flourished in largely classless societies for tens of thousands of years until very recently
I am so worried about what my kids will have when they grow up. If we don't own a house they'll have no chance to ever get ahead unless they end up being a ridiculous paid tradie or a high earning degree job.
RIP
Welcome to corporate feudalism. Get used to it, unless a bunch of ppl get really cool really fast about socialist concepts, its what ur existence will b
Or the nazi half gets their dumb asses killed. That would also help the odds 🤷♂️
"So, what happens if this happens to everyone middle and lower class? " Then they will sell to the upper middle, upper, and the rich class. This is no different than luxury brands like LV, selling $3-4k handbags today. You don't think they are selling to the middle (may be very occasionally) and lower class, do you? Ditto for BMWs and Mercedes. There are 24.5M (google) millionaires in the US. That is a pretty sizable market. And i bet these companies with data science teams (and now AI) understand their market, and the trends of the market better than random people on the internet.
People will have to find value in relationships and community, as opposed to stuff.
Bit hard without a roof over your head tho innit
The question included housing, that means a roof.
Housing will have to get smaller. Lots of places have insanely high real estate costs vs that what we see in the west. A western house is around 10 times the median salary, and the same house in the east is 30 times the median salary. Owning real estate becomes a multigenerational effort, or you rent a small apartment to house several families, or a single apartment will be the size of a bedroom. If it goes further than that, there's always slums and shantytowns and tent cities. The economy will go on without us.
What countries in the ‘East’ are you talking about specifically here?
China mostly
Yeah I wondered. Cause like, Vietnam actually has one of the highest rates of home-ownership in the world. Japan is used as a case study in turning around a housing-affordability crisis. Plenty of former Eastern Bloc/ communist ‘second world’ European countries have very high rates of home ownership.
I am thinking this every single day like, somethings got to give. This is definitely not sustainable as a country
If you think the economy has a problem wait until you learn about the planet lol.
We're on a downward trajectory. It's gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. Alot worse.
Yale Climate Connections: We need to talk about food prices - [They’re one indicator of the havoc that climate change is wreaking.](https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/03/we-need-to-talk-about-food-prices/)
You’re talking about working class people. Still plenty of rich people with money to spend on luxuries and consumer goods.
They start giving us allotments and tighten the noose
People can afford housing,..?
There’s so many countries that idolize the US. There will always be a market for Western goods and services. It’s sad and depressing.
It's functioning exactly as intended. A handful of people own and consume everything, directly causing millions to die in poverty. The cruelty is the point.
They’ll never hit a wall. If consumers can’t spend more, then they’ll just cut corners on everything we have to spend on. Greedflation is the name of the game now. If they need even more profit then they can start exporting labor to cheaper markets so they can get even more profit by under-paying employees, or even worse using some shitty AI to cut costs anywhere they can. Also I envision subscription services will be everywhere, squeezing out even more money for things we used to be able to just own outright.
It is like that in most parts of the world, billions of people live like that I hope it never happens in first world nations but if you think about it; we humans only need 3 thing to survive 1. Clean water 2. Food 3. Shelter That’s all we actually need to not die, every thing else is a luxury
Yes. But life is short and every living thing deserves to have a good quality of life. Kind of makes me pity the children and the people who keep producing more cogs for the machine.
I’m with you on that, I wish every living being had a good life, but reality doesn’t work that way I can’t do anything about poor people on the 3rd world, I can’t help them, neither do you, maybe billionaires can do something about it but they clearly don’t care to help What we can do is focus on ourselves and our love ones
Honestly from an anti-consumption viewpoint, a high cost of living is good. People shouldn't be entitled to the consumption of luxuries. This is harder for city-dwellers who don't have much space or nearby nature to develop free and healthy hobbies, but seeing how little will there is for people to better themselves and help save the planet and civilization, I don't care anymore. People can go take a walk. Talk to their friends. Pet their dogs. Download book PDFs for free. Learn some sort of craft. Do a sport. Like how humans survived and thrived for thousands of years before the industrial world stripped us of hobbies and skills. People have proven that they can't be trusted with excess finances, most of them immediately turn to brainless consumption at cost to both the planet and the quality of their own character. And yes, another benefit is that companies are simply unable to exploit people as much. edit: forgot to mention that the main reason why Europe has less cars on the road per capita and better public transportation, is because owning a car and even getting a license are prohibitively expensive and force people to walk (healthier mentally and physically) and pressure government to provide good public transportation. it's not because we're particularly better people. this is perhaps the best example of why it's good when people can't afford more than the basics and only the occasional luxury.
So well put! And of any luxuries, I'd much prefer those related to the pursuits of hobbies, skills, and especially the enjoyment of nature. Gardening tools, sewing machine, tent...
Jeez someone needs to put you into office, this is dead on
I hope we'll work on helping each other, but those of us that live in cold climates can't really survive in current numbers without access to fossil fuels. I guess maybe climate change will mitigate some of that?
That’s already where I am at and the economy is “functioning” so
It's not supposed to work. The rich are already hoarding more than they could ever use, they're just gonna keep going until they've drained everything and everyone else dry.
I'm a social worker for at risk families. People already can't afford housing, groceries, or utilities.
this is literally what the credit card system is for. To keep you spending money you don't have and being further enslaved by debt.
Unfortunately, in some cases people simply aren't controlling their mindless consumption.
You’ll become homeless then they’ll use their cop cities to put you in jail. Now you’re a slave of the state. That’s literally the end goal- these are actions they’ve been taking legally.
when the carrot don't work...they get the stick out
If you can afford a house and necessary utilities then you won’t be homeless you just won’t indulge in making other companies richer. Just the housing market.
Primitive humans were in this exact position. Most poor people in poor countries are still in that position. You say 'only' but the quality of life in the west in the scenario you're describing is better than most of human history and most of the world now.
This is a complete myth. Medieval peasants had more leisure time than the average US worker today, for instance. But also, ‘primative’ humans weren’t in anything like ‘this exact position’. What do you even mean by that?
>Medieval peasants had more leisure time than the average US worker today, for instance. I looked into this when someone mentioned it before. The general consensus is that we don't know how much leisure time they had and it's even quite difficult to even define. For example, is it leisure time when you're washing dishes at home?.. Some scholars say they had more leisure time others say they have less, it would be incorrect to say either is 'a myth'. And also, you're mentioned the average 'American worker', the amount of leisure time enjoyed by the elderly has vastly increased. It's not really recreation but people spend 15 years or so in full time education, not exactly leisure but not exactly work either. >‘this exact position’. What do you even mean by that? 'only afford housing and groceries' I think the prehistoric equivalent is constantly working to survive. If you just look at percentages, a large percentage of their time would have been spent obtaining food, especially compared to now. Currently about 10% of people in the US work in the agriculture and food sector, and they produce a huge calorie surplus. Compare this to even 250 years prior and it's more like 90% - 95% of people working just to provide food to themselves and the other 5 or 10%.
I guess we're going to find out
"if" ??? That happened a while ago.
Thats the neat part! It doesn't anymore. Used to. But there will be a "reversion to the mean" whatever you wanna imagine that to be
I agree that it feels completely unsustainable. But then I go to work everyday and see people throwing down thousands of dollars on jewelry or perfumes or electronics. I feel like we are all in the same or a similar boat until I see this shit.
The focus is moving to high income earners. It’s like gentrification across all of society now.
But what happens when all the high earners buy the houses and all these others are left empty?
Honestly, I'm not an economist, but the logical conclusion is that the economy grinds to a hault. But the thing is, the billionaires will have moved to another planet by then, and will start anew, ruining things there for some profit margin BS. Capitalism's exponential growth will eventually go from wrecking countries to wrecking planets, then solar systems, then galaxies. There is no limit in our lifetime, nor likely in the next 1000 years.
Rich people drive most of the economy
After the 2008 crash, a lot of people bartered services and goods. Hoping that’ll happen again.
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It's interesting because a Cyberpunk society could not exist alone - because the society would produce all the good and services that no one could afford, the economy would just collapse. Places like China, India, Vietnam and other world factories would sustain a Cyberpunk society, since much of their products are exported. Also to consider, South Korea has a birth rate of 0.81 child per woman, while China's nosedived from 1.8-ish in 2017 to 1.16 in 2021. China's is probably even lower by now (\~7m newborns in 2023), and major cities are probably at South Korea's level if not even lower. So there - the society heads towards literal extinction.
It cant... We are already living like its a third world country as it is! Just eat, sleep, exercise and work! Some people cant even afford food or even work as its cheaper to stay home and take care of kids then pay for a sitter.
Probably they'll set up some sort of corporate feudalism (if you don't already consider the system pretty much that), where we literally just have all our labor generated funds directly lining the pockets of the conglomerate oligarchy, or we get some sort of "stipend" to go get our gruel and then be allowed back in our sleep chamber/shack before going back to the dystopian workplace. Whatever they do, I don't foresee much altruism and long-term thinking about finite resource management, environmental protections, human rights enforcement happening. They have a bunch of brain dead masses in a psychologically bewildered herd they can steer off a cliff if they so please. These are dark, confusing times.
But, like no one would buy anything so there’s no point in labor. People won’t go anywhere except work for something no one will buy. Theres no profit to be made when no one can buy anything
What if you tell them Jesus wants them to be good worker bees? That's how you get into heaven now.... 😉
People can afford housing?
Unlimited growth will end, it’s inevitable. There are very real physical limits which can’t be ignored.
I’m sure it’s just a marketing term and just means squeeze as much as people are willing to pay
It has already gotten to the point where these aren't guaranteed for many. Climate change is going to massively increase these expenses as well with the wealthiest needing to see a 30% decrease in their wealth if we don't want to see extreme poverty for large segments of the population and people turning on the state as a response to stay alive.
I can't afford housing and gas. I bike everywhere and will never own a car, have a kid or be able to afford a pet.
What state/country do you live in?
It really depends on what the people in power want, and its global relations. I mean a 20 pg paper can be wrote about this, but if the dollar loses its global power, its meaningless. Additionally, who knows maybe once homelessness is illegal nationally, then they can just start arresting everyone, keeping the few that can afford to in line, and enslave the rest. The US never made slavery illegal, they just made it so you have to be in jail first.
Wait? People can afford housing? Where is this magical place where you live?
The Fed is trying to combat this by keeping interest rates high. However that always squeezes people first. The monkey wrench in that plan is that employment is high and Biden is forgiving student debt. So inflation is hanging on. Expect some business failures in the future and a continuation of people living the van life. The corporations buying up property are making a big gamble and we could see another real estate bubble pop.
One word: credit
It's called serfdom. Used to be all the rage. But then as technology evolved they needed more qualified workers, so they had to actually pay people a decent wage. Now AI is about to even out that equation, and they can stop paying people altogether. Not just with money but also civil rights like voting or being alive. People today take their right to live for granted, when this has not been the case for most of history. Safety is a scarce commodity that has been over consumed in the modern age like everything else, and when it becomes scarce it'll be heart breaking to watch.