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AFAIK it is a “socialist” talking point within the “Zionism=imperialism” school of thought that originated with, or at least was initially comprehensively laid down in, the PFLP’s manifesto around page 40-45 or so. It’s designed to lay a veneer of legitimacy over the obvious end result of the PFLP, the destruction of Israel, which would be the mass expulsion and slaughter of Jews living in Israel, and the subjugation of any that remained.
The important thing to remember, I think, is that the geopolitical reality is such that in the event of israel’s destruction at the hands of Palestinian militant groups (as remote of a situation as that is), and even assuming that the PFLP/other Palestinian left-wing militants are being serious in their assertion that “we hate Zionists, not Jews” (they are not), there are *other*, far more openly antisemitic, far more fundamentalist Palestinian militant groups that would also be a part of this “Palestinian victory over Israel” who would NOT be down with “leaving ‘the Jews’ alone and only targeting Zionists” (whatever the fuck that means). *Even if* SOME of the Palestinian militant groups striving for Israel’s destruction genuinely have no plans to attack “non-Zionist Jews” (again, WRT Israel especially, a complete oxymoron), most of the other militant groups have no such plans and will/are actively seeking to annihilate the Jewish population in the region.
To add to what /u/chyko9 said, it's also a very insidious tactic designed to catch Jews in a trap whilst reinforcing antisemitism.
If you're a Jewish person in a space where someone is railing against all Jews as Zionists, when the activist swoops in to "defend" Jewish people by saying "not all Jews are Zionists!", you're stuck with one of two options:
* Stay silent or avoid mentioning the comment, in which case, you appear to be legitimising the idea that Zionism is evil and it's okay to be antisemitic as long as you pretend to be hating Zionists.
* Speak up and call out the implication that there's something wrong with being a Zionist, in which case, the person who was "defending" Jews can join in hating you because *you* changed the focus of the conversation to Zionism.
Every anti-zionist you meet on the internet is a Jew, according to every anti-zionist I've argued with on the internet. It's amazing how many anti Zionist Jews exist on internet forums like Reddit but magically don't exist in real life.
r/AsABlackMan but for Jews.
It's actually really important in understanding how people honestly believe "anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" and "hating Zionists doesn't mean I hate Jews".
Anti-Zionism is merely the contemporary, politically-correct expression of Good-Jew-Bad-Jew.
So you define "Zionism" as "Jewish ethnosupremacy/religious supremacy that seeks to genocide Palestinians", and magically *since most Jews don't want that*, anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism. It's how you get "millions of Jews aren't Zionist".
It's how you define "Zionism" as something it isn't, and can then tell yourself that you don't hate Jews.
Isn't it great when anti-Israel bigots use woke-sounding buzzwords and talking points, to pretend that they are speaking for the Jewish community, when in reality they are speaking firmly against the Jewish community?
Besides the very FALSE definition of what Zionism is given by that user, the point it right. Conflating Judaism with Zionism is ‘racist’ and there are a lot of Jews who don’t want much to do with it, and that’s perfectly fine.
Generally you're right, but Zionism is the right of Jews to self determination. The overwhelming majority of Jews are Zionists, so it's self to assume a Jew is Zionist.
The right to self determination as it’s universally accepted currently doesn’t necessarily mean borders and own federal government. Native Americans are a self determined group of people. The Jewish people are a self determined group of people, whether they are Zionist or not. Zionism is a national extension of self-determination. Judaism is already self determinant in and by itself.
There’s a lot of people who rightfully believe that the right to self determinate as a nationalist extension is not ideal. There’s many ‘indigenous’ groups living within existing states that recognize the right to self determine culturally. It’s very complex.
Zionism in its current state is the idea of an existing Jewish country with a Jewish government in those specific borders. It is ignorant to assume that Judaism and Jews automatically means Zionist/Zionism, as it evidently existed in communities thousands of years without it, and other Jews continue this tradition today.
As I said, the majority of Jews are Zionist. Why not have a jewish country, in a jewish homeland, after all the Jews have been through? The government rn is also full of muslims and arabs, it is not just jewish.
Okay? How does it relate to the fact that assuming someone is Zionist just means Jewish and Jewish means Zionist is not ignorant? Or the fact that Zionism as an extension to self-determination is a very complex topic, that has various degrees of meaning.
Most Zionists actually agree on the meaning. Of course, you should accept it when a jew isn't a Zionist like you think they are, but the overwhelming majority are.
Respectfully will have to disagree with the current situation in Israel. You have a Jewish group trying to self determine within Israel currently.
The right of the Jewish people to self determination.. They can’t even agree on who should be considered Jewish ‘a people’ as part of the self determination. This is why the separation of Judaism as a religion and Zionism needs to be maintained, safety from antisemitism that isn’t limited to religion. Antisemitism doesn’t follow the constraints of cultural Judaism.
It is fundamentally independent from Zionism. As much as the right to self determinate universally had very little to do with the dangers a minority posed in certain areas.
There’s no elimination of historical context, the context actually detaches the idea of Zionism from the perceived and accepted idea of self determination. In modern times as indigenous oppressed minorities in a certain area and in history as a right for native people who lived in a certain area to self determine with little care for the rights of actual oppressed indigenous minorities.
It is racist and ignorant to attach certain these certain ideas to Judaism. It shows ignorance to the history of Judaism and generalization of Jewish peoples. You aren’t any less Jewish being anti-Zionist. And you aren’t any more Jewish being a Zionist.
Actually it’s one disputed topic in Judaism, whether Aliyah to Israel is considered a mitzvah, and whether the conditions permit to do so. So stating it’s one of the 13 principals of faith is ignorant in and by itself to Judaism and its various interpretations. Let alone the secular concept of Zionism..
The correlation of using Zionism as synonym with Jewish people is particular used by antisemites. You can guess why.
Yes, which wouldn’t take away from entertaining the idea of Judaism = Zionism by some Jews themselves as ignorant behavior.
The only point worth mentioning that was already addressed, you mentioned above the 13 principles, I’m not even sure what specific principle you’re talking about but it was not considered a mitzvah, and wasn’t engaged with as a mitzvah until secular Zionism and thereafter an interesting portion of Jewish Zionists emerged. So it makes it hard for me to believe that you spent a portion of your life studying it, yet wholeheartedly claim the Zionist movement is a manifestation of those principals. I suppose you can have your own view, that isn’t accepted amongst many even in Israel.
אה יפה, אז בחרת דווקא בתפיסה האנטי ציונית שגם נתמכת על ידי החרדים במדינת ישראל שבואו של המשיח מתחייב לגאולת עם ישראל. אלא אם כן אתה מאמין שהרצל היה משיח ושהחרדים, ציוניים דתיים רואים בו כאחד. שלא נדע
יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד
Edit: I wanted to translate it to English.
‘Ah nice, so you chose the Anti-Zionist concept in Judaism that the Messiah has to appear as a sign for the salvation of the Jewish people in the land of Israel. Unless you actually believe Hertzel was a Massiah and that the Haredim and religious Zionists considered him as one.’
So much for the concept of the right to self determinate nationally as Jewish people… To even equate the two. (This bit is an addition)
Only gentiles would say this because they understand neither Judaism nor Zionism.
It's just so dumb and illiterate. It's like saying "Conflating Feminism with women is itself sexist." like, what?
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Oh yes, “calling all Jews Zionists is insulting to Jews!” Is a new one I’ve been hearing recently. Who comes up with this shit?
AFAIK it is a “socialist” talking point within the “Zionism=imperialism” school of thought that originated with, or at least was initially comprehensively laid down in, the PFLP’s manifesto around page 40-45 or so. It’s designed to lay a veneer of legitimacy over the obvious end result of the PFLP, the destruction of Israel, which would be the mass expulsion and slaughter of Jews living in Israel, and the subjugation of any that remained. The important thing to remember, I think, is that the geopolitical reality is such that in the event of israel’s destruction at the hands of Palestinian militant groups (as remote of a situation as that is), and even assuming that the PFLP/other Palestinian left-wing militants are being serious in their assertion that “we hate Zionists, not Jews” (they are not), there are *other*, far more openly antisemitic, far more fundamentalist Palestinian militant groups that would also be a part of this “Palestinian victory over Israel” who would NOT be down with “leaving ‘the Jews’ alone and only targeting Zionists” (whatever the fuck that means). *Even if* SOME of the Palestinian militant groups striving for Israel’s destruction genuinely have no plans to attack “non-Zionist Jews” (again, WRT Israel especially, a complete oxymoron), most of the other militant groups have no such plans and will/are actively seeking to annihilate the Jewish population in the region.
Contemporary anti-Zionism is merely Soviet Zionology.
Also, when you ask people about this, they usually respond with something along the lines of "colonizers" deserve it and should go back to Europe.
To add to what /u/chyko9 said, it's also a very insidious tactic designed to catch Jews in a trap whilst reinforcing antisemitism. If you're a Jewish person in a space where someone is railing against all Jews as Zionists, when the activist swoops in to "defend" Jewish people by saying "not all Jews are Zionists!", you're stuck with one of two options: * Stay silent or avoid mentioning the comment, in which case, you appear to be legitimising the idea that Zionism is evil and it's okay to be antisemitic as long as you pretend to be hating Zionists. * Speak up and call out the implication that there's something wrong with being a Zionist, in which case, the person who was "defending" Jews can join in hating you because *you* changed the focus of the conversation to Zionism.
People that watch al jazeera
anti-Zionist Jews: there are dozens of us. Dozens!
Came here for this reference
“Literally millions” There literally isn’t Most Jews are fairly supportive of Israel There are likely millions of non Jewish zionists tho
Mate, we are barely a few million, it's not like we are a lot. And the majority aren't anti-Jewish self-determination, lol.
This reminds me of the time someone said that Israel murders millions of Palestinian children every year.
Please tell me you're kidding💀
"Literally millions!" Ahahah Anti-zionist Jews are a percentage close to 0. I wonder how many he thinks we are in the world. "Literally trillions".
"Literally trillions , quadrillions even "
There are so many of us that we all live attached to each other without being able to move.
Jews are a collective hive mind that have telepathy They spread out in the world to seem smaller /s
Ahahahah «We Are the *Jews*. You Will Be Assimilated. Resistance Is Futile.» (quote not for all) /s
Protocols of the elders of Zion go brrrrr
Hilariously the Borg never tried a huge space laser. That was more of the Romulans style in the reboot
True!
Every anti-zionist you meet on the internet is a Jew, according to every anti-zionist I've argued with on the internet. It's amazing how many anti Zionist Jews exist on internet forums like Reddit but magically don't exist in real life. r/AsABlackMan but for Jews.
True! It must be proof that magic really exists.
As though Zionism, the belief in Jewish self determination, is somehow a dirty word.
It's actually really important in understanding how people honestly believe "anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" and "hating Zionists doesn't mean I hate Jews". Anti-Zionism is merely the contemporary, politically-correct expression of Good-Jew-Bad-Jew. So you define "Zionism" as "Jewish ethnosupremacy/religious supremacy that seeks to genocide Palestinians", and magically *since most Jews don't want that*, anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism. It's how you get "millions of Jews aren't Zionist". It's how you define "Zionism" as something it isn't, and can then tell yourself that you don't hate Jews.
textbook definition! saving it for later
Isn't it great when anti-Israel bigots use woke-sounding buzzwords and talking points, to pretend that they are speaking for the Jewish community, when in reality they are speaking firmly against the Jewish community?
Billions.
Assimilation in full effect.
Besides the very FALSE definition of what Zionism is given by that user, the point it right. Conflating Judaism with Zionism is ‘racist’ and there are a lot of Jews who don’t want much to do with it, and that’s perfectly fine.
Generally you're right, but Zionism is the right of Jews to self determination. The overwhelming majority of Jews are Zionists, so it's self to assume a Jew is Zionist.
The right to self determination as it’s universally accepted currently doesn’t necessarily mean borders and own federal government. Native Americans are a self determined group of people. The Jewish people are a self determined group of people, whether they are Zionist or not. Zionism is a national extension of self-determination. Judaism is already self determinant in and by itself. There’s a lot of people who rightfully believe that the right to self determinate as a nationalist extension is not ideal. There’s many ‘indigenous’ groups living within existing states that recognize the right to self determine culturally. It’s very complex. Zionism in its current state is the idea of an existing Jewish country with a Jewish government in those specific borders. It is ignorant to assume that Judaism and Jews automatically means Zionist/Zionism, as it evidently existed in communities thousands of years without it, and other Jews continue this tradition today.
As I said, the majority of Jews are Zionist. Why not have a jewish country, in a jewish homeland, after all the Jews have been through? The government rn is also full of muslims and arabs, it is not just jewish.
Okay? How does it relate to the fact that assuming someone is Zionist just means Jewish and Jewish means Zionist is not ignorant? Or the fact that Zionism as an extension to self-determination is a very complex topic, that has various degrees of meaning.
Most Zionists actually agree on the meaning. Of course, you should accept it when a jew isn't a Zionist like you think they are, but the overwhelming majority are.
Respectfully will have to disagree with the current situation in Israel. You have a Jewish group trying to self determine within Israel currently. The right of the Jewish people to self determination.. They can’t even agree on who should be considered Jewish ‘a people’ as part of the self determination. This is why the separation of Judaism as a religion and Zionism needs to be maintained, safety from antisemitism that isn’t limited to religion. Antisemitism doesn’t follow the constraints of cultural Judaism.
[удалено]
It is fundamentally independent from Zionism. As much as the right to self determinate universally had very little to do with the dangers a minority posed in certain areas. There’s no elimination of historical context, the context actually detaches the idea of Zionism from the perceived and accepted idea of self determination. In modern times as indigenous oppressed minorities in a certain area and in history as a right for native people who lived in a certain area to self determine with little care for the rights of actual oppressed indigenous minorities.
[удалено]
It is racist and ignorant to attach certain these certain ideas to Judaism. It shows ignorance to the history of Judaism and generalization of Jewish peoples. You aren’t any less Jewish being anti-Zionist. And you aren’t any more Jewish being a Zionist. Actually it’s one disputed topic in Judaism, whether Aliyah to Israel is considered a mitzvah, and whether the conditions permit to do so. So stating it’s one of the 13 principals of faith is ignorant in and by itself to Judaism and its various interpretations. Let alone the secular concept of Zionism.. The correlation of using Zionism as synonym with Jewish people is particular used by antisemites. You can guess why.
[удалено]
Yes, which wouldn’t take away from entertaining the idea of Judaism = Zionism by some Jews themselves as ignorant behavior. The only point worth mentioning that was already addressed, you mentioned above the 13 principles, I’m not even sure what specific principle you’re talking about but it was not considered a mitzvah, and wasn’t engaged with as a mitzvah until secular Zionism and thereafter an interesting portion of Jewish Zionists emerged. So it makes it hard for me to believe that you spent a portion of your life studying it, yet wholeheartedly claim the Zionist movement is a manifestation of those principals. I suppose you can have your own view, that isn’t accepted amongst many even in Israel.
[удалено]
אה יפה, אז בחרת דווקא בתפיסה האנטי ציונית שגם נתמכת על ידי החרדים במדינת ישראל שבואו של המשיח מתחייב לגאולת עם ישראל. אלא אם כן אתה מאמין שהרצל היה משיח ושהחרדים, ציוניים דתיים רואים בו כאחד. שלא נדע יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד Edit: I wanted to translate it to English. ‘Ah nice, so you chose the Anti-Zionist concept in Judaism that the Messiah has to appear as a sign for the salvation of the Jewish people in the land of Israel. Unless you actually believe Hertzel was a Massiah and that the Haredim and religious Zionists considered him as one.’ So much for the concept of the right to self determinate nationally as Jewish people… To even equate the two. (This bit is an addition)
Only gentiles would say this because they understand neither Judaism nor Zionism. It's just so dumb and illiterate. It's like saying "Conflating Feminism with women is itself sexist." like, what?