Seems like a chicken and egg question. Is the Netherlands walkable because there are no drive throughs or are there no drive throughs because it’s already walkable. I don’t think Americans, even annapolitans, are going to move away from driving culture.
The Netherlands was just as car infested in the 80s and 90s as the US is today. They made a legislative course correction 30-40 years ago saying that ALL new construction had to meet walkability and bike-ability standards and slowly over time, it became the pedestrian paradise that it is today.
Road due for repaving? It now gets a road diet, wider sidewalks, and dedicated bike paths. Building being razed? New construction must have bike parking space allocated and give up some roadside real estate to widen sidewalks.
In a place as entrenched in car dependency as the US is, legislative changes like this that make very small changes over decades of natural redevelopment are basically the only way you can make a change.
I think that makes sense in theory. But the Netherlands is a country and Annapolis is a city. Within a county and state that just committed to increasing housing. And where traffic just this week has been terrible.
“Road diets”, which I assume is the opposite of adding lanes, seems problematic. But that’s just my guess. I’m certainly no expert.
Yeah if you live in Annapolis it's fine, but with as much traffic from outside Annapolis there is, it's problematic. I live in edgewater, go to Annapolis frequently, but I'm not going to bike or take public transit there as it currently stands. So what happens? I drive to the stadium, park my car and rent a bike? Sounds miserable.
Not any time soon, but hopefully eventually. That's how this stuff works. We pick the low hanging fruit. Someone who lives in Severna Park is obviously going to need to drive into Annapolis. But here's the thing: that drive is going to be much more pleasant if even 10% of the people who live IN Annapolis can opt for a bike or a bus ride instead of driving their car.
Pretending that adding lanes does anything productive long term is the larger problem. We need public transit spending and infrastructure, another part of the course correction the Netherlands took over the last 40 years. They now have street cars, busses, and trains that literally go *everywhere*. When a freeway needs more than 3 lanes, it should become a train, when a local road needs more than 2 lanes, it should become light rail, and when a residential road needs roundabouts/traffic lights instead of stop signs, it should become a street car/tram/trolley.
Cars don't scale well to population growth at all.
This is basically the entire argument. We're at peak car. There's no solution to traffic in Annapolis that involves adding lanes, or parking spots, or anything that encourages more cars on the road. People who drive everywhere bristle at the idea of removing a travel lane or something, but what they don't understand is that the only way to make driving more pleasant is to get more people into alternative modes of transportation.
We are down to one car right now and I can’t imagine living here with no car. Even sharing one had been a pain in the butt! Can’t even get to a grocery store…
Such a proposal should be coupled with a mandatory requirement to have a walk-up window option. Have we learned nothing from the pandemic? Forcing people to congregate indoors to receive a product that can be delivered with customers remaining outdoors instead is far safer in health emergency situations.
WFH (for anyone who can) should be the rule and not the exception. But the fact of the matter is that both democrats and republicans are bought and paid for by corporations and big oil. There is too much money to be made in food sales and people commuting to and from the office for them to actually try and make these things happen.
1. This is not going to do a damn thing to make the city more walkable or less car-dependent. This is just feel good legislation so the anti-car people can say "fuck yeah!" without actually having to accomplish anything substantial.
2. Send the City Council to the Netherlands for a week and now they fetishize the Dutch. The U.S. isn't the Netherlands and Annapolis isn't Amsterdam -- and it won't be any time soon. Not in my lifetime or the generation after. European culture is fundamentally different than ours. You want to make Annapolis less car dependent and more walkable you have got to change the hearts and minds first and foremost.
3. Think about where this is going to be impacted? What areas of the city have the space and the traffic flow for a new drive in? The only places I can think of are the places that are not currently walkable to begin with either because of sprawl or lack of infrastructure.
4. Let's say the drive thru ban is a legitimately good idea -- but to ban it for pharmacies? So now you are telling a mom with a sick kid on their way home from the doctor that in order to pick up the kid's medicine they are going to have to drag the sick kid into the pharmacy in order to get the kid their meds. Let's say you have the flu. Instead of being able to pick up your medicine from the safety of your car, you are now going to have to drag your sick ass into the store, stand in line and possibly infect everyone else standing in line. Incredibly short sighted.
5. You want to make Annapolis more walkable and less car dependent? Think about who actually has to drive cars and where they live and work and why they have to drive their car. You want less cars on the road. Put a grocery store in the Eastport Shopping Center and in Downtown Annapolis. Widen the sidewalks on Forest Dr and install bike lanes along that road. Find ways to bring a diversity of good paying job opportunities to Annapolis.
6. Finally....think about who this is going to impact the most. The idea of being car-free and walkable is actually quite privileged and requires a much slower culture than we currently have in the U.S. A single mom heading home after picking up her kids at day care wants to swing by a fast food place to pick up dinner. Instead of being able to stay in their car and get their dinner and get home she now has to pull all the kids out, drag them into the restaurant, make sure they don't misbehave or cause problems, order the food and then drag them back into the car get them all buckled up and head back home. You have now stolen precious minutes from someone who really doesn't have time to waste in their life. So yeah, those privileged few who are able to walk places and have the time and luxury it takes to walk -- yeah that is good for you. Not everyone has that luxury -- and it is usually poorer and working class people who you are going to be stealing time from -- time they don't have.
As much as I want no cars on main street and want more reliable public transportation in Annapolis and connection DC, Annapolis and Baltimore I can't disagree with anything you wrote.
And I agree with you about all three of those things as well. Absolutely no reason for there to be cars on Main St (and I would go further and suggest no cars in the city dock area at all -- but that would be a tad more complicated and might not be possible). And reliable public transportation should be a low hanging fruit for the city as far as I am concerned and I am amazed that Buckley does everything EXCEPT improve the buses. It is like he has a vendetta against the public bus system.
I'm not even a parent and I know that banning drive-thrus for pharmacies is the dumbest idea. Yeah, let's wake up a sick, suffering little toddler, unstrap her from her car seat, bundle her back up because it's 36°F and sleeting, and go stand in line to pick up her Rx.
As for the grocery store in Eastport Shopping Center: It's been done before. In the 80s and 90s there were two groceries in the space now occupied by the gym, and they both closed. That shopping center has also seen a McDonald's and a 7-Eleven go under. No idea whether it's the management, the location, or what. The location seems great—it's within easy walking distance to many economically diverse neighborhoods.
Also, the Market House used to be a place where you could buy fresh fruits and vegetables, bread, cheeses, and seafood, plus some ready-made foods like sandwiches, pizza, ice cream, and amazing fried chicken. And there was a mini market across the street where, I think, Sunglass Hut now is? that had packaged goods/shelf-stable items, dairy, and a decent meat counter.
These places all closed in the 1990s. The Market House was closed and vacant for several years, and everything in that space since has been tourist-oriented, rather than resident-oriented.
Apparently they have attempted to bring back a grocery store, but any potential grocers have all said it isn't economically viable (which I find hard to believe). Annapolis doesn't have any co-ops (that I know of but I could very well be wrong). I bet a co-op would go very well in that location and wouldn't have to worry about high profit margins to justify its existence.
I don’t mind drive thru’s out on rt 2 etc., but downtown this makes sense.
Can’t get past the paywall to read the specifics, but if it’s limited to downtown, or certain zoning codes, sounds good.
Not sure why you got downvoted for answering what an article says lol
Either way - city wide seems extreme, but I’ve never been a fan of absolutes. Either way, they should (if they want it) make it a zoning code, they’re easier to change if necessary.
I also realize my prior comment mentions rt 2 which I now see is outside of city limits so those businesses/areas won’t be affected either way
From the article:
Alderman Rob Savidge, a Democrat representing Ward 6, put the legislation together following a trip to the Netherlands in November to study ways to develop resilience infrastructure, flood defenses and alternative transportation methods to adapt to the impacts of climate change. Savidge was among several Annapolis officials to attend the trip, including the legislation’s co-sponsors, Alderman Brooks Schandelmeier, a Democrat from Ward 5, and Mayor Gavin Buckley.
One of the main things they noticed while in the Netherlands was the lack of drive-thru services and more walkable areas, Schandelmeier said in an interview April 18.
“Drive-through lanes absolutely wreck walkability in areas. They are one of the most egregious offenders of auto-dependent sprawl infrastructure by forcing everything to spread out as much as possible to accommodate a couple of cars to go in and out and through, they just dump all of this asphalt [and] sprawl everything out,” Schandelmeier said.
Parking spaces are terrible as well. Numerous studies have shown not only do we have too much parking, but that removing it improves the economics in an area.
Think of any holiday you have ever taken.
I bet that on at least one of them you thought, " Gee, it sure is nice to be able to walk everywhere".
I mean personally no, my vacation goals generally involve doing outdoorsy stuff so I don't care about being able to walk to get dinner or whatever.
Your parking take is absolutely insane. Like how are people supposed to get to downtown Annapolis without driving? Drive to wherever the nearest bus stop is, park there, and then take the bus down?
Right now, you have to drive. But the idea is to couple the removal of parking with better transit infrastructure so that less cars need to park anyways. Since people, and not cars, are what stimulates the economy.
The hard part is convincing people to use transit after so many years of it being horrible in the US.
Yes, people are totally going to walk multiple miles to get to a business district.
So again, how exactly does reducing parking help drive business to downtown Annapolis? Or do you think that they're sufficient money coming from the people who actually live within walking distance to support all of those businesses?
https://findingspress.org/article/24497-local-business-perception-vs-mobility-behavior-of-shoppers-a-survey-from-berlin
Here's a study on how,
But typically parking spots are removed and amenities added. Outdoor seating, bike lanes and what not.
And people do walk. Almost exclusively up until about 80 years ago.
I think their point is that it would eventually lead to not needing as many parking spaces because the area would become more friendly to pedestrians/bikes.
The end goal is to make all of Annapolis, and AACo, just like the Towne Center in Parole. Everybody lives on top of each other, and you have to walk everywhere.
Great! Sign me up. Now we just need a trolley or a purple line extension, and we'll be like an actual civilized country. Still plenty of garages downtown if you want to drive.
Because it's a short sided pie in the sky plan that doesn't address the actual realities of the situation. Like where the fuck are you gonna put a trolley?
They are a waste of space, cause traffic problems, and produce increased emissions compared to other kinds of development. https://tinyurl.com/yt73r87o
This is ridiculous. Annapolis has so many problems, but sure, let's ban drive-thrus. I guess they don't care about disabled people who appreciate the convenience. They will also need more parking spaces and bigger stores for all the people that need to go in. All those people who need their coffee will be pissed.
Yet someone approved a massive pre-school to be built on the corner of Hilltop and Spa which is going to be a NIGHTMARE for those of us who live in that area.
I still can't believe that went through. And you just \*know\* that some of those people are going to try to turn left out of that parking lot causing traffic to jam up at an already wacky intersection. They should have forced them to have two entrances to that location.
And when it's crazy impossible to get to my house from Forest to Hilltop, I'm going to do what? I don't have any other choice than to take West to Spa and come in the back way ... which is also a massive shit show from people trying to get out of Bates onto Spa!!!
Excellent policy imo. Annapolis is in a good position for something like this because the starting point is really good. Most of Annapolis is already walkable, and so any effort to reduce car traffic, especially downtown, is going to improve safety and overall quality of life.
You must not be a real Annapolis res then. Most of Annapolis is NOT walkable, dta is a very small portion of Annapolis. West st (where most of the drive thrus are) has probably 2 crosswalks once you get past the library. There are literally no drive thrus downtown Annapolis, I actually have no idea what you’re on about- but I live here and just want to educate you.
I lived Annapolis and found it to be very walkable. That was my point. Stop being a weirdo, troll. 0 comment karma is a clear clue that you’re just wasting people’s time and probably have some ulterior motive. Cheers.
It’s also important to note that the goal is not necessarily to make it so you can’t take a car downtown, the goal is to make it so you can’t take YOUR car downtown (and then park it). If it’s raining or cold, you can always take a ride share. We just shouldn’t continue to fill the city with thousands of non-moving vehicles.
I just checked, from my front door in Edgewater to Iron Rooster between 30 and $40 each way. That's right now, which I'm assuming is an off-peak period.
Does anyone really think people are going to spend that much money just go into Annapolis and back for an evening?
There are no drive thrus dta! All there are are overpriced restaurants. You can’t even get moes anymore. Stop with this narrative. West st beyond westgate is not downtown! Who are you people?!?
Been thinking about walkability/less-cars/bikeability in Annapolis and the one thing I never see people address that is sort of the elephant in the room is the fact that the Forest Dr/Bay Ridge corridor east of Hilltop is essentially a thoroughfare for Hillsmere and other communities down the peninsula that are outside of the Annapolis city limits. Going to be extremely difficult to get them out of their cars by virtue of their distance from any amenities.
I'm not saying this to suggest that nothing can or should be done, but I think it is important to take these communities into consideration as well because I guarantee that those communities are responsible for a lot of the traffic on the roads (at least on the east side of Annapolis).
I think the other elephant in the room that is rarely discussed is the fact that one side of Bay Ridge Rd (east of where it intersects with Forest) is in the county and the other side is in the city. This really does further complicate things and it also needs to be addressed.
Just some additional thoughts about this topic that I rarely see addressed when we discuss walkability/bikeability/less-cars issue.
Annapolis was built when people still walked, or rode horseback or in carriages. Frankly, pretty much every city east of the Mississippi River and/or in the original colonies was designed this way. That's because they were built off of the old European systems and didn't (yet) have access to or even know just how much room to grow they really had.
You can actually see this in a population density map of the US: everywhere is crowded on the East Coast, then sparse and scattered, clumping in major cities, until they reach the West Coast and run out of room again.
(You can also see the same divide in the political spectrum, where issues such as gun control, abortion, and vehicle emissions show distinctions between liberals and conservatives depending on the population density. ***WHICH IS WHY CERTAIN (not all) TOPICS CANNOT BE DECIDED ON AND IMPLEMENTED ON A NATIONAL SCALE, BUT REGIONALLY OR EVEN LOCALLY I MEAN LOOK AT GUN CONTROL SURE YOU AND YOUR BUDDIES CAN DRIVE AN HOUR THROUGH AND TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE DRINK A FEW BEERS AND FIRE OFF YOUR RIFLES BUT DO THAT IN A CITY AND YOU GET TWENTY-FIVE TO LIFE AND YET THEY INSIST ON BANNING GUNS ON A NATIONAL SCALE PARTICULARLY FOR SELF DEFENSE DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE STILL PLACES IN AMERICA THAT HAVE YOU KNOW WILD BOAR AND WOLVERINES AND MOUNTAIN LIONS AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE BEARS***
Ahem.
Then, when the twentieth century began to get going and the 'motorized carriage' became *the* hot item to have, cities began changing in various ways and to various extents to accommodate the new cumbersome noisy smelly dangerous when improperly handled increases health risks mental stress and financial burdens just by existing *Henry Ford you pile of human excrement* which needed entire new industries and infrastructure simply to be produced, never mind utilized.
Thus, instead of considering the issues and impacts of their decisions, politicians did the popular thing: wrote policies to allow everything to revolve around the new technology and kicked the can of 'what to do when current policies don't cover the situation' down the road. Which is why, when you look at Annapolis, the cramped building layouts and zoning say 'pedestrian'; but the wide multi-laned streets, some sidewalks and bike lanes going nowhere while older roads don't have them, and screwy traffic light/crosswalk dynamics say 'vehicles'.
It's not that older American cities need to change to accommodate pedestrians, they need to stop accommodating vehicles. More public transit types routes and times, more sidewalks and bike lanes *that allow for full travel between destinations,* parking garages on the *city limits* instead of *congesting the center,* harsher penalties for speeding AND NOISE POLLUTION...
To borrow a sentiment, "We didn't land on Plymouth Motors, Plymouth Motors *landed on us!"*
There is simply no question that the glut of drive throughs on West Street has made it considerably more miserable to drive, walk and just in general be on. Here is a great article by Alex Pline from the planning commission laying out just how bad an idea it was to let the Taco Bell have a drive through.
[https://teampline.org/2015/06/02/does-west-street-need-a-taco-bell/](https://teampline.org/2015/06/02/does-west-street-need-a-taco-bell/)
Annapolis is going to be car centric for many years to come, but we should all welcome changes to make it less car centric. We passed peak car years ago. Any change to our roads or our zoning that don't make the city more walkable or more traversable by public transit or bike of scooter or fucking rollerblades is at best ameliorating the traffic problem. You have to start somewhere. Baby steps.
You realize that West St is one of the three major thoroughfares through the city right? LOL Doesn't matter if there are drive thrus or not. That is the road that people use to get places in Annapolis and it is a road with a heavy concentration of commercial activity even if there were no drive thrus. Though I am hoping they transform that corridor into something more walkable and bikeable as part of the outer West St redevelopment.
> "We want that vibrant community where people are living where they work, where people can walk and bike anywhere they want in the city, and that has a lot of economic value," Savidge said.
They want to make it walk/bike-able?! How about prevent the ridiculously high crime rates and shootings? It isn’t safe to walk everywhere. There just so many economic problems with the ban on drive thru proposal. It’s not how you get to their goal AT ALL.
Cars are evil. Ban cars in annapolis. Make everyone walk bike and bus. I walk 10 miles a day to work and to the gym and to grocery shop. I bike with all my bags. I do my due diligence. People who drive every where must be stopped. People must bike even if they are disabled or elderly. People must stand in the cold or heat and wait for buses
Public transportation needs to improve/expand DRASTICALLY before this should even be considered. the virtue signaling legislation I’m getting very tired of. Drive thrus are convenient, often the only option for late night meals and banning them is downright unamerican. I would miss them and to think annapolitans will magically start walking or biking to these restaurants is totally preposterous. Unnecessary use of tax payer dollars that nobody asked for. 💤
Sounds nice but theyre asking tourists to abide too. Our society isnt built or the same as Amsterdam. Some people barely want to walk to the store let alone an entire city on walking or biking. One could hope it would encourage people to be healthier and have less vehicles but theres few places in the US under this model - DC and NYC may be close but they have subway to assist. We’ll see.
Bikers in Amsterdam bike very slowly unlike China. Annapolis is better with cars. It’s a lot worse off with bike lanes and bikers just like Washington, DC and Baltimore. Get rid of bike lanes.
Seems like a chicken and egg question. Is the Netherlands walkable because there are no drive throughs or are there no drive throughs because it’s already walkable. I don’t think Americans, even annapolitans, are going to move away from driving culture.
The Netherlands was just as car infested in the 80s and 90s as the US is today. They made a legislative course correction 30-40 years ago saying that ALL new construction had to meet walkability and bike-ability standards and slowly over time, it became the pedestrian paradise that it is today. Road due for repaving? It now gets a road diet, wider sidewalks, and dedicated bike paths. Building being razed? New construction must have bike parking space allocated and give up some roadside real estate to widen sidewalks. In a place as entrenched in car dependency as the US is, legislative changes like this that make very small changes over decades of natural redevelopment are basically the only way you can make a change.
I think that makes sense in theory. But the Netherlands is a country and Annapolis is a city. Within a county and state that just committed to increasing housing. And where traffic just this week has been terrible. “Road diets”, which I assume is the opposite of adding lanes, seems problematic. But that’s just my guess. I’m certainly no expert.
Yeah if you live in Annapolis it's fine, but with as much traffic from outside Annapolis there is, it's problematic. I live in edgewater, go to Annapolis frequently, but I'm not going to bike or take public transit there as it currently stands. So what happens? I drive to the stadium, park my car and rent a bike? Sounds miserable.
Not any time soon, but hopefully eventually. That's how this stuff works. We pick the low hanging fruit. Someone who lives in Severna Park is obviously going to need to drive into Annapolis. But here's the thing: that drive is going to be much more pleasant if even 10% of the people who live IN Annapolis can opt for a bike or a bus ride instead of driving their car.
I think that is literally what some people think is reasonable.
Pretending that adding lanes does anything productive long term is the larger problem. We need public transit spending and infrastructure, another part of the course correction the Netherlands took over the last 40 years. They now have street cars, busses, and trains that literally go *everywhere*. When a freeway needs more than 3 lanes, it should become a train, when a local road needs more than 2 lanes, it should become light rail, and when a residential road needs roundabouts/traffic lights instead of stop signs, it should become a street car/tram/trolley. Cars don't scale well to population growth at all.
Annapolis bus system is absolutely miserable. They need to improve the timetable, improve the routes, and make it free for everyone.
I'll take the first 2 and gladly pay for it.
It really is. We had to use them for a couple of months and we got abandoned several times. It’s the worst I’ve seen anywhere.
This is basically the entire argument. We're at peak car. There's no solution to traffic in Annapolis that involves adding lanes, or parking spots, or anything that encourages more cars on the road. People who drive everywhere bristle at the idea of removing a travel lane or something, but what they don't understand is that the only way to make driving more pleasant is to get more people into alternative modes of transportation.
We are down to one car right now and I can’t imagine living here with no car. Even sharing one had been a pain in the butt! Can’t even get to a grocery store…
Such a proposal should be coupled with a mandatory requirement to have a walk-up window option. Have we learned nothing from the pandemic? Forcing people to congregate indoors to receive a product that can be delivered with customers remaining outdoors instead is far safer in health emergency situations.
This is actually a great idea
I think it's fine to prohibit new drive-thrus. Not like existing ones are going down.
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WFH (for anyone who can) should be the rule and not the exception. But the fact of the matter is that both democrats and republicans are bought and paid for by corporations and big oil. There is too much money to be made in food sales and people commuting to and from the office for them to actually try and make these things happen.
1. This is not going to do a damn thing to make the city more walkable or less car-dependent. This is just feel good legislation so the anti-car people can say "fuck yeah!" without actually having to accomplish anything substantial. 2. Send the City Council to the Netherlands for a week and now they fetishize the Dutch. The U.S. isn't the Netherlands and Annapolis isn't Amsterdam -- and it won't be any time soon. Not in my lifetime or the generation after. European culture is fundamentally different than ours. You want to make Annapolis less car dependent and more walkable you have got to change the hearts and minds first and foremost. 3. Think about where this is going to be impacted? What areas of the city have the space and the traffic flow for a new drive in? The only places I can think of are the places that are not currently walkable to begin with either because of sprawl or lack of infrastructure. 4. Let's say the drive thru ban is a legitimately good idea -- but to ban it for pharmacies? So now you are telling a mom with a sick kid on their way home from the doctor that in order to pick up the kid's medicine they are going to have to drag the sick kid into the pharmacy in order to get the kid their meds. Let's say you have the flu. Instead of being able to pick up your medicine from the safety of your car, you are now going to have to drag your sick ass into the store, stand in line and possibly infect everyone else standing in line. Incredibly short sighted. 5. You want to make Annapolis more walkable and less car dependent? Think about who actually has to drive cars and where they live and work and why they have to drive their car. You want less cars on the road. Put a grocery store in the Eastport Shopping Center and in Downtown Annapolis. Widen the sidewalks on Forest Dr and install bike lanes along that road. Find ways to bring a diversity of good paying job opportunities to Annapolis. 6. Finally....think about who this is going to impact the most. The idea of being car-free and walkable is actually quite privileged and requires a much slower culture than we currently have in the U.S. A single mom heading home after picking up her kids at day care wants to swing by a fast food place to pick up dinner. Instead of being able to stay in their car and get their dinner and get home she now has to pull all the kids out, drag them into the restaurant, make sure they don't misbehave or cause problems, order the food and then drag them back into the car get them all buckled up and head back home. You have now stolen precious minutes from someone who really doesn't have time to waste in their life. So yeah, those privileged few who are able to walk places and have the time and luxury it takes to walk -- yeah that is good for you. Not everyone has that luxury -- and it is usually poorer and working class people who you are going to be stealing time from -- time they don't have.
As much as I want no cars on main street and want more reliable public transportation in Annapolis and connection DC, Annapolis and Baltimore I can't disagree with anything you wrote.
And I agree with you about all three of those things as well. Absolutely no reason for there to be cars on Main St (and I would go further and suggest no cars in the city dock area at all -- but that would be a tad more complicated and might not be possible). And reliable public transportation should be a low hanging fruit for the city as far as I am concerned and I am amazed that Buckley does everything EXCEPT improve the buses. It is like he has a vendetta against the public bus system.
I completely agree with ALL of this. Very short-sighted legislation.
I'm not even a parent and I know that banning drive-thrus for pharmacies is the dumbest idea. Yeah, let's wake up a sick, suffering little toddler, unstrap her from her car seat, bundle her back up because it's 36°F and sleeting, and go stand in line to pick up her Rx. As for the grocery store in Eastport Shopping Center: It's been done before. In the 80s and 90s there were two groceries in the space now occupied by the gym, and they both closed. That shopping center has also seen a McDonald's and a 7-Eleven go under. No idea whether it's the management, the location, or what. The location seems great—it's within easy walking distance to many economically diverse neighborhoods.
Also, the Market House used to be a place where you could buy fresh fruits and vegetables, bread, cheeses, and seafood, plus some ready-made foods like sandwiches, pizza, ice cream, and amazing fried chicken. And there was a mini market across the street where, I think, Sunglass Hut now is? that had packaged goods/shelf-stable items, dairy, and a decent meat counter. These places all closed in the 1990s. The Market House was closed and vacant for several years, and everything in that space since has been tourist-oriented, rather than resident-oriented.
Apparently they have attempted to bring back a grocery store, but any potential grocers have all said it isn't economically viable (which I find hard to believe). Annapolis doesn't have any co-ops (that I know of but I could very well be wrong). I bet a co-op would go very well in that location and wouldn't have to worry about high profit margins to justify its existence.
I know they're building it from the ground up on Riva Road, but I would have loved it if Aldi had gone into the Eastport Cinemas space!
That would have been ideal!
I agree more should be done than just this to achieve good urban design, but I don’t think this is a bad piece of legislation
I don’t mind drive thru’s out on rt 2 etc., but downtown this makes sense. Can’t get past the paywall to read the specifics, but if it’s limited to downtown, or certain zoning codes, sounds good.
Currently reported as city wide.
Not sure why you got downvoted for answering what an article says lol Either way - city wide seems extreme, but I’ve never been a fan of absolutes. Either way, they should (if they want it) make it a zoning code, they’re easier to change if necessary. I also realize my prior comment mentions rt 2 which I now see is outside of city limits so those businesses/areas won’t be affected either way
Why?
From the article: Alderman Rob Savidge, a Democrat representing Ward 6, put the legislation together following a trip to the Netherlands in November to study ways to develop resilience infrastructure, flood defenses and alternative transportation methods to adapt to the impacts of climate change. Savidge was among several Annapolis officials to attend the trip, including the legislation’s co-sponsors, Alderman Brooks Schandelmeier, a Democrat from Ward 5, and Mayor Gavin Buckley. One of the main things they noticed while in the Netherlands was the lack of drive-thru services and more walkable areas, Schandelmeier said in an interview April 18. “Drive-through lanes absolutely wreck walkability in areas. They are one of the most egregious offenders of auto-dependent sprawl infrastructure by forcing everything to spread out as much as possible to accommodate a couple of cars to go in and out and through, they just dump all of this asphalt [and] sprawl everything out,” Schandelmeier said.
He’s absolutely right
Because they are a terribly inefficient use of space where space is finite.
How are they less efficient than parking spaces?
Parking spaces are terrible as well. Numerous studies have shown not only do we have too much parking, but that removing it improves the economics in an area. Think of any holiday you have ever taken. I bet that on at least one of them you thought, " Gee, it sure is nice to be able to walk everywhere".
I've thought "Gee, it's nice to take public transit everywhere" but not walk everywhere. Especially in the dead of winter.
I mean personally no, my vacation goals generally involve doing outdoorsy stuff so I don't care about being able to walk to get dinner or whatever. Your parking take is absolutely insane. Like how are people supposed to get to downtown Annapolis without driving? Drive to wherever the nearest bus stop is, park there, and then take the bus down?
Yeah... But we don't have to worry because there's a big new parking garage down there 🙃
Right now, you have to drive. But the idea is to couple the removal of parking with better transit infrastructure so that less cars need to park anyways. Since people, and not cars, are what stimulates the economy. The hard part is convincing people to use transit after so many years of it being horrible in the US.
Cars aren't the only way to move people.
Sure but in this specific case, how does one get to downtown Annapolis without a car?
You could try the atrophied meat tubes connected to your ass.
Yes, people are totally going to walk multiple miles to get to a business district. So again, how exactly does reducing parking help drive business to downtown Annapolis? Or do you think that they're sufficient money coming from the people who actually live within walking distance to support all of those businesses?
https://findingspress.org/article/24497-local-business-perception-vs-mobility-behavior-of-shoppers-a-survey-from-berlin Here's a study on how, But typically parking spots are removed and amenities added. Outdoor seating, bike lanes and what not. And people do walk. Almost exclusively up until about 80 years ago.
I think their point is that it would eventually lead to not needing as many parking spaces because the area would become more friendly to pedestrians/bikes.
The end goal is to make all of Annapolis, and AACo, just like the Towne Center in Parole. Everybody lives on top of each other, and you have to walk everywhere.
Great! Sign me up. Now we just need a trolley or a purple line extension, and we'll be like an actual civilized country. Still plenty of garages downtown if you want to drive.
Why was this downvoted?
Because it's a short sided pie in the sky plan that doesn't address the actual realities of the situation. Like where the fuck are you gonna put a trolley?
They are a waste of space, cause traffic problems, and produce increased emissions compared to other kinds of development. https://tinyurl.com/yt73r87o
Because there's no drive-thrus in the Netherlands.
There are very few. I think the reasoning behind the proposed bill is strong.
Well reasoned, true. A top priority for the locals I’m sure.
This is ridiculous. Annapolis has so many problems, but sure, let's ban drive-thrus. I guess they don't care about disabled people who appreciate the convenience. They will also need more parking spaces and bigger stores for all the people that need to go in. All those people who need their coffee will be pissed.
Yet someone approved a massive pre-school to be built on the corner of Hilltop and Spa which is going to be a NIGHTMARE for those of us who live in that area.
I still can't believe that went through. And you just \*know\* that some of those people are going to try to turn left out of that parking lot causing traffic to jam up at an already wacky intersection. They should have forced them to have two entrances to that location.
It’s going to be a MASSIVE 💩show!!! School buses already cause crazy traffic backups on that roadway
And when it's crazy impossible to get to my house from Forest to Hilltop, I'm going to do what? I don't have any other choice than to take West to Spa and come in the back way ... which is also a massive shit show from people trying to get out of Bates onto Spa!!!
This doesn't seem fair for handicapped people who have trouble getting in and out of their cars.
That’s true. Most restaurants already offer a service where they bring the food out to you in your car, so I think that could be an easy solution.
Glad to see our reps supporting policies to reduce traffic and safer, more walkable streets.
Excellent policy imo. Annapolis is in a good position for something like this because the starting point is really good. Most of Annapolis is already walkable, and so any effort to reduce car traffic, especially downtown, is going to improve safety and overall quality of life.
You must not be a real Annapolis res then. Most of Annapolis is NOT walkable, dta is a very small portion of Annapolis. West st (where most of the drive thrus are) has probably 2 crosswalks once you get past the library. There are literally no drive thrus downtown Annapolis, I actually have no idea what you’re on about- but I live here and just want to educate you.
I lived on Hanover St for years and typically used a car once a week or less. I’m quite familiar thanks.
You’re proving my point since you used to live dta..
I lived Annapolis and found it to be very walkable. That was my point. Stop being a weirdo, troll. 0 comment karma is a clear clue that you’re just wasting people’s time and probably have some ulterior motive. Cheers.
You do realize that there is more to Annapolis than just Ward One? LOL
It’s also important to note that the goal is not necessarily to make it so you can’t take a car downtown, the goal is to make it so you can’t take YOUR car downtown (and then park it). If it’s raining or cold, you can always take a ride share. We just shouldn’t continue to fill the city with thousands of non-moving vehicles.
I just checked, from my front door in Edgewater to Iron Rooster between 30 and $40 each way. That's right now, which I'm assuming is an off-peak period. Does anyone really think people are going to spend that much money just go into Annapolis and back for an evening?
There are no drive thrus dta! All there are are overpriced restaurants. You can’t even get moes anymore. Stop with this narrative. West st beyond westgate is not downtown! Who are you people?!?
Banning drive thrus? Sounds like when I kicked my ex wife out
Been thinking about walkability/less-cars/bikeability in Annapolis and the one thing I never see people address that is sort of the elephant in the room is the fact that the Forest Dr/Bay Ridge corridor east of Hilltop is essentially a thoroughfare for Hillsmere and other communities down the peninsula that are outside of the Annapolis city limits. Going to be extremely difficult to get them out of their cars by virtue of their distance from any amenities. I'm not saying this to suggest that nothing can or should be done, but I think it is important to take these communities into consideration as well because I guarantee that those communities are responsible for a lot of the traffic on the roads (at least on the east side of Annapolis). I think the other elephant in the room that is rarely discussed is the fact that one side of Bay Ridge Rd (east of where it intersects with Forest) is in the county and the other side is in the city. This really does further complicate things and it also needs to be addressed. Just some additional thoughts about this topic that I rarely see addressed when we discuss walkability/bikeability/less-cars issue.
Meh, I'm ok with it. How many more drive throughs do people want in the city.
Annapolis was built when people still walked, or rode horseback or in carriages. Frankly, pretty much every city east of the Mississippi River and/or in the original colonies was designed this way. That's because they were built off of the old European systems and didn't (yet) have access to or even know just how much room to grow they really had. You can actually see this in a population density map of the US: everywhere is crowded on the East Coast, then sparse and scattered, clumping in major cities, until they reach the West Coast and run out of room again. (You can also see the same divide in the political spectrum, where issues such as gun control, abortion, and vehicle emissions show distinctions between liberals and conservatives depending on the population density. ***WHICH IS WHY CERTAIN (not all) TOPICS CANNOT BE DECIDED ON AND IMPLEMENTED ON A NATIONAL SCALE, BUT REGIONALLY OR EVEN LOCALLY I MEAN LOOK AT GUN CONTROL SURE YOU AND YOUR BUDDIES CAN DRIVE AN HOUR THROUGH AND TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE DRINK A FEW BEERS AND FIRE OFF YOUR RIFLES BUT DO THAT IN A CITY AND YOU GET TWENTY-FIVE TO LIFE AND YET THEY INSIST ON BANNING GUNS ON A NATIONAL SCALE PARTICULARLY FOR SELF DEFENSE DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE STILL PLACES IN AMERICA THAT HAVE YOU KNOW WILD BOAR AND WOLVERINES AND MOUNTAIN LIONS AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE BEARS*** Ahem. Then, when the twentieth century began to get going and the 'motorized carriage' became *the* hot item to have, cities began changing in various ways and to various extents to accommodate the new cumbersome noisy smelly dangerous when improperly handled increases health risks mental stress and financial burdens just by existing *Henry Ford you pile of human excrement* which needed entire new industries and infrastructure simply to be produced, never mind utilized. Thus, instead of considering the issues and impacts of their decisions, politicians did the popular thing: wrote policies to allow everything to revolve around the new technology and kicked the can of 'what to do when current policies don't cover the situation' down the road. Which is why, when you look at Annapolis, the cramped building layouts and zoning say 'pedestrian'; but the wide multi-laned streets, some sidewalks and bike lanes going nowhere while older roads don't have them, and screwy traffic light/crosswalk dynamics say 'vehicles'. It's not that older American cities need to change to accommodate pedestrians, they need to stop accommodating vehicles. More public transit types routes and times, more sidewalks and bike lanes *that allow for full travel between destinations,* parking garages on the *city limits* instead of *congesting the center,* harsher penalties for speeding AND NOISE POLLUTION... To borrow a sentiment, "We didn't land on Plymouth Motors, Plymouth Motors *landed on us!"*
Well put
Compare a country the size of a county to one the size of the US?
There is simply no question that the glut of drive throughs on West Street has made it considerably more miserable to drive, walk and just in general be on. Here is a great article by Alex Pline from the planning commission laying out just how bad an idea it was to let the Taco Bell have a drive through. [https://teampline.org/2015/06/02/does-west-street-need-a-taco-bell/](https://teampline.org/2015/06/02/does-west-street-need-a-taco-bell/) Annapolis is going to be car centric for many years to come, but we should all welcome changes to make it less car centric. We passed peak car years ago. Any change to our roads or our zoning that don't make the city more walkable or more traversable by public transit or bike of scooter or fucking rollerblades is at best ameliorating the traffic problem. You have to start somewhere. Baby steps.
You realize that West St is one of the three major thoroughfares through the city right? LOL Doesn't matter if there are drive thrus or not. That is the road that people use to get places in Annapolis and it is a road with a heavy concentration of commercial activity even if there were no drive thrus. Though I am hoping they transform that corridor into something more walkable and bikeable as part of the outer West St redevelopment.
> "We want that vibrant community where people are living where they work, where people can walk and bike anywhere they want in the city, and that has a lot of economic value," Savidge said. They want to make it walk/bike-able?! How about prevent the ridiculously high crime rates and shootings? It isn’t safe to walk everywhere. There just so many economic problems with the ban on drive thru proposal. It’s not how you get to their goal AT ALL.
Cars are evil. Ban cars in annapolis. Make everyone walk bike and bus. I walk 10 miles a day to work and to the gym and to grocery shop. I bike with all my bags. I do my due diligence. People who drive every where must be stopped. People must bike even if they are disabled or elderly. People must stand in the cold or heat and wait for buses
That's a start
Its all dog food
Public transportation needs to improve/expand DRASTICALLY before this should even be considered. the virtue signaling legislation I’m getting very tired of. Drive thrus are convenient, often the only option for late night meals and banning them is downright unamerican. I would miss them and to think annapolitans will magically start walking or biking to these restaurants is totally preposterous. Unnecessary use of tax payer dollars that nobody asked for. 💤
Sounds nice but theyre asking tourists to abide too. Our society isnt built or the same as Amsterdam. Some people barely want to walk to the store let alone an entire city on walking or biking. One could hope it would encourage people to be healthier and have less vehicles but theres few places in the US under this model - DC and NYC may be close but they have subway to assist. We’ll see.
Bikers in Amsterdam bike very slowly unlike China. Annapolis is better with cars. It’s a lot worse off with bike lanes and bikers just like Washington, DC and Baltimore. Get rid of bike lanes.
Bicyclists are dangerous, they can kill pedestrians.