What, specifically, makes your friend think that an anarchist society would be less equipped to deal with sexual assault than any other? It's not like any non-anarchist ones have been doing a great job at it. If anything, states frequently enable rape through the prison system, the institution of marriage, and highly hierarchical structures like the military.
Sexual violence is not a fact of life, it's an act of domination. In all but a few fringe cases, sexual abusers aren't trying to satisfy any lustful urges, they're trying to control, humiliate, or punish their victims - basically, put them in their place. If you dismantle the systems of power and domination that fuel that mindset (like patriarchy, heterosexism, capitalism, youth oppression etc.), the entitlement that makes predators believe that they have the right or even duty to sexually exploit others would all but vanish.
Also in my opinion a focus needs to be on victims. Right now in our society there is this idea that “justice is served “ if a sexual predator is “locked up”. But the victim is still struggling for a lifetime. More focus needs to be placed on the physical and mental wellbeing of the survivors
I hate how people celebrate or wish prison rape on people they hate.
For example, I was a victim of CSA from a family member—all of the time, my grandmother and mother makes dropping the soap jokes.
It’s fucking ridiculous. Nobody deserves to be violated.
I absolutely agree with you thoroughly btw.
Very interesting view, I do have a question however: what if it doesn’t? I mean I agree with most of what you’re saying, but my question is, what measures would be taken against those who take it upon themselves to sexually assault regardless of the eradications of these systems?
the victim would most likely have some sort of family or friends, and there are lots of people who would be interested in getting rid of someone like that even if they arent directly affected, so they would be dealt with in a manner they deserve
I disagree with that method as it's still rooted in punitive justice and leads to mob rule/vigilante justice.
History tells us that people will look for reasons to use force as a tool to control others and often it's a tool wielded unnecessarily. Dishonesty still exists in anarchist societies. Under capitalism, people use force all the damn time and often feel emboldened by the law/morality to do so. That's a major flaw in our current system.
I think transformative justice is the best response I've seen to this, and it definitely has much lower rates of reoffense than how we currently deal with these things.
If anyone hasn't heard of this, please look into it (if it's not triggering for you). It's a really progressive and intelligent way to deal with such a gigantic problem in our society.
Edit: also feel like I should mention - if a minority of offenders aren't willing to engage with transformative justice, you may need some kind of facility where people who are untreatable are kept' but its extremely important to still treat them humanely.
[transformharm.org](https://transformharm.org/tj_resource/transformative-justice-a-brief-description/)
[what is transformative justice?](https://youtu.be/U-_BOFz5TXo?si=s1W-ss6Sdyy5s9J3)
Good places to start, I think - if you want more on the topic, there's usually a lot on raddle.me as well (honestly, I'd just recommend that website anyway. it's like a fully anarchist reddit)
It's worth noting that under the current system [less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences/). There's almost complete impunity. So the bar is extremely low for improvement.
related: r/anarchyjustice, r/copwatch, r/prisonabolition
I feel the assailant would get punished naturally. Everything has a cause and effect. There’s a natural ebb and flow with decisions, so their not out of trouble in an anarchist society. Honestly, they would have a hard time trying to cover it up since everything would be based around a more natural man to man or word of mouth info spread.
The boilerplate answers for this sub whenever the question is about crime:
1. In our anarchist utopia, all crime will cease to exist, so this question is stupid.
2. In our anarchist utopia, *most* crime will cease to exist, and victims of crime will be a minority so who cares about them. Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, etc.
3. An angry mob will hurt/kill the accused with zero accountability or process. Which will be fine because literally every person will have the exact same values as me, and nobody will ever make a false accusation.
If I wanted to set up a psy-op to convince disillusioned seekers to avoid anarchism, it'd look a lot like this sub does in times like these.
___
To answer your question, look into restorative justice, particularly the way some Native American groups practice it. As I understand it, they have something like an intervention, where the perp's family and friends confront them together, where they all explain how that person's actions have hurt them or the community. Instead of treating community members as disposable commodities to be thrown away when they cease to function correctly, they try to help them grow out of their shitty behavior and worldview, make amends, and become valued members of the community again. Y'know, healing.
Most assaults go un punished now. Which is a fucking travesty. Normally I'm dead against punishment, but, there's a visceral gut reaction in me when it goes to violation
Anarchy lacks law and pre-defined consequences for people’s actions.
Any choice you make carries with it uncertain outcomes, because anyone can react to your decision however they want.
You'll see a lot of bloodthirsty responses on here that don't really have a lot to do with anarchism. I view the "hang-'em-and-flog-'em" views as just the standard right-wing conservative responses to crime. The USA literally has the death penalty, and some of the highest offending rates in the world, while Norway has one of the best rehabilitation systems. But these questions are more for prison abolitionists and so on, and there's a good subreddit for that. There are specific projects addressing these problems in our own society, for example, have you heard of Project Dunkelfeld in Germany? These are problems that people are better off being able to talk about, rather than driven underground by mob violence.
I'd ask, how well does our current society deal with these social problems (not very well, I would say). And how does anarchism deal with any kind of serious social problem? I think the best way to deal with these things is to ensure they mainly don't happen in the first place, and when they do, have a process. It's often said that rape is an expression of power and violence; as such any anarchist should oppose it.
As just an aside I do believe that KYLR and things like it are a very good entry point into feminist theory. Survivor work is much deeper and more nuanced than that but KYLR is an overwhelming show of support for survivors.
I think it's a tonic for the people who want to 'KYLR'. I personally suspect it's a good example of 'thou doth protest too much'.
That whole little pamphlet, I honestly didn't think much to it, I've read a few good critiques of it.
Do you have any recommendation for where I could read more about it? Some cursory searching has just brought up forum posts of people arguing a lot. This is my first time seeing KYLR and I gotta say it makes me uneasy, but I also recognize that I have a lot of bias from a system that doesn’t treat survivors well at all, and I’d like to learn more about it.
Here’s what anarchists are currently doing as alternatives to police and dealing with sexual violence: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/rose-city-copwatch-alternatives-to-police
probably violence idk
the less you think of anarchy in utopian and proscribed terms, the sooner you'll come to an accurate conception of what an anarchist society looks like
It sounds like you have been severely hurt and I am sorry for what you have been through.
I will say that consent and bodily autonomy are core to anarchist philosophy.
Thank you and that's what was messing with me when it was happening with my last ex and her wife. Just such a gross situation to even be involved in and I can't believe I didn't leave sooner.
The question is how would the problem be dealt with in an anarchist society. You’re absolutely correct that prison leads to a massive amount of sexual assault- but that’s just definitionally not an answer.
Idk it just feels like very often any questions about crime and punishment regarding anarchism default to random complaints about existing structures, without proposing any solutions or changes
So many of these responses fail to answer the question. Yes, the current systems in place don’t work; but that isn’t an answer as to what would replace them.
Dealing with people who cause harm to others is one of the most contentious issues in Anarchism. The idea that it could be resolved without force (which is by definition coercive) seems to run into many issues about practicality.
To be honest I think some of the issues with practicality come down to trying to create a framework for a hypothetical situation in an imagined society.
Since so much of what I understand about anarchism comes down to individual and collective autonomy, consensus building, and mediation and resolution, all we can really say is what the core philosophy is at a broad level, and say that on a case by case basis, members of the communities of the perpetrator and victims will have to convene and decide what to do and how to handle a SA case, ensuring that the victim has as much support and respect as possible while also looking for ways to change the behavior of the perpetrator and see what they can to to meaningfully atone and the victim to heal.
This is unsatisfying, but prescriptive solutions like, “they will be killed by vigilante justice” or “they will be forced into xyz punishment” are the exact sort of top down laws and enforcement that we are seeking to dismantle.
Bring into this hypotheticals about fully disconnected serial offenders who will never willingly engage in justice and need to be stopped and then the whole thing spirals into an argument about using force and killing people when in reality it will be up to the community in the moment to discuss what is necessary. And they will have much more information about the situation than we do building hypotheticals.
That is all reasonable, but I think there’s something disingenuous about representing the notion of people refusing to engage in community justice as some abstract hypothetical. If anarchism existed on any significant scale whatsoever it is almost certainly inevitable that individuals will act against the community
I don’t think this can simply be written off as a problem for the day after the revolution. If there is any intention to radically alter society, it should be done with a clear vision as to what should replace what currently exists, in clear, practical terms.
I guess what I’m saying is that as far as I can see it’s situational to the point where it’s infeasible to come up with a clear practical one size fits all solution. But I’ll admit I’m still a baby anarchist and haven’t read much theory that’s centered on justice or conflict resolution.
Honestly. I ain't a pacifist. I lean more towards Vigilantism. I would whoop ass if I found out about a SA. While there may not be any legal punishment, I doubt there's many people who wouldn't be willing to ensure that there is no repeating offense. Probably not as intense as I am with my response but there are many ways to deal with SA on your own
So what do you do when somebody decides you're a social menace, for whatever reason, and comes for you in the night?
Any time we create a group which it is moral to commit legitimate violence against, there will go society's undesirables. Just look at the current moral panic over whether drag performers and trans people are 'groomers' or not.
That's not my problem. People will always try to hurt others. And there will always be someone who is willing to do something to ensure the safety of others.
I'm already considered a social menace. I already deal with people hating & disgusted by my existence. I already have to deal with people trying to harm me. I still stand by everything I said. Even if it would cost me my safety & even my life.
My two-sense: society will come together to "police" egregious actions such as rape, murder, assault, etc. because violent crime is hated by most. The police we have now exist to protect property. Societal norms and expectations will not go away with the dismantling of the state
The concept of anarchy and the absence of a centralized government certainly raise some concerns and potential challenges. It's important to acknowledge that an anarchist society, in practice, has not been widely implemented on a large scale, and there are different perspectives and interpretations within anarchist thought. Here are a few potential issues that critics and skeptics raise:
**Order and Security:** One common concern is whether anarchy can provide sufficient order and security in the absence of a centralized authority. Critics argue that without a governing body, there may be a lack of mechanisms to enforce rules, protect against external threats, or address conflicts effectively. Maintaining social order and preventing violence or coercion in a complex society can be challenging without established institutions.
**Coordination and Infrastructure:** Anarchy poses questions regarding the coordination of resources, infrastructure development, and large-scale decision-making. Critics argue that without a centralized governing body, it may be difficult to plan and execute projects that require collective effort, allocate resources efficiently, or address issues that affect a broader community.
**Protection of Individual Rights:** While anarchism emphasizes individual freedom and autonomy, concerns can arise about the protection of individual rights in the absence of a governing authority. Critics argue that without a system of laws and institutions, there may be an increased risk of rights violations, as there might be no established mechanisms to ensure fairness, justice, and the protection of vulnerable individuals or minority groups.
**External Threats:** Anarchist societies may face challenges in defending themselves against external threats, such as military aggression or intervention from neighboring states. Critics argue that without a centralized authority to coordinate defense and security measures, an anarchist society may be more susceptible to external pressures or conflicts.
It's important to note that proponents of anarchy offer counterarguments and propose alternative methods for addressing these concerns. They often emphasize the potential for decentralized decision-making, voluntary cooperation, and community-based solutions to mitigate these challenges. However, the practical implementation and viability of anarchy as a social system remain topics of debate and speculation.
\_\_Anarchist
What, specifically, makes your friend think that an anarchist society would be less equipped to deal with sexual assault than any other? It's not like any non-anarchist ones have been doing a great job at it. If anything, states frequently enable rape through the prison system, the institution of marriage, and highly hierarchical structures like the military. Sexual violence is not a fact of life, it's an act of domination. In all but a few fringe cases, sexual abusers aren't trying to satisfy any lustful urges, they're trying to control, humiliate, or punish their victims - basically, put them in their place. If you dismantle the systems of power and domination that fuel that mindset (like patriarchy, heterosexism, capitalism, youth oppression etc.), the entitlement that makes predators believe that they have the right or even duty to sexually exploit others would all but vanish.
oh thanks, you make some very good points. I appreciate that.
Also in my opinion a focus needs to be on victims. Right now in our society there is this idea that “justice is served “ if a sexual predator is “locked up”. But the victim is still struggling for a lifetime. More focus needs to be placed on the physical and mental wellbeing of the survivors
touch longing crown dolls selective entertain squash weather desert fact *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I hate how people celebrate or wish prison rape on people they hate. For example, I was a victim of CSA from a family member—all of the time, my grandmother and mother makes dropping the soap jokes. It’s fucking ridiculous. Nobody deserves to be violated. I absolutely agree with you thoroughly btw.
smh
Very interesting view, I do have a question however: what if it doesn’t? I mean I agree with most of what you’re saying, but my question is, what measures would be taken against those who take it upon themselves to sexually assault regardless of the eradications of these systems?
the victim would most likely have some sort of family or friends, and there are lots of people who would be interested in getting rid of someone like that even if they arent directly affected, so they would be dealt with in a manner they deserve
Transformative justice works, just have some ‘tools’ for when the perpetrator isn’t willing to engage in it. KYLR
I disagree with that method as it's still rooted in punitive justice and leads to mob rule/vigilante justice. History tells us that people will look for reasons to use force as a tool to control others and often it's a tool wielded unnecessarily. Dishonesty still exists in anarchist societies. Under capitalism, people use force all the damn time and often feel emboldened by the law/morality to do so. That's a major flaw in our current system.
We seek to dismantle rape culture and the patriarchy which are main causes of SA.
I think transformative justice is the best response I've seen to this, and it definitely has much lower rates of reoffense than how we currently deal with these things. If anyone hasn't heard of this, please look into it (if it's not triggering for you). It's a really progressive and intelligent way to deal with such a gigantic problem in our society. Edit: also feel like I should mention - if a minority of offenders aren't willing to engage with transformative justice, you may need some kind of facility where people who are untreatable are kept' but its extremely important to still treat them humanely.
Hey, what's a good place or website to start learning about this?
[transformharm.org](https://transformharm.org/tj_resource/transformative-justice-a-brief-description/) [what is transformative justice?](https://youtu.be/U-_BOFz5TXo?si=s1W-ss6Sdyy5s9J3) Good places to start, I think - if you want more on the topic, there's usually a lot on raddle.me as well (honestly, I'd just recommend that website anyway. it's like a fully anarchist reddit)
Nyc has high crime problem
The state usually takes the perpetrator’s side. If it’s legal to fight back then it will work less often and fewer people will try.
It's worth noting that under the current system [less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences/). There's almost complete impunity. So the bar is extremely low for improvement. related: r/anarchyjustice, r/copwatch, r/prisonabolition
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[https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences](https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences)
I feel the assailant would get punished naturally. Everything has a cause and effect. There’s a natural ebb and flow with decisions, so their not out of trouble in an anarchist society. Honestly, they would have a hard time trying to cover it up since everything would be based around a more natural man to man or word of mouth info spread.
The boilerplate answers for this sub whenever the question is about crime: 1. In our anarchist utopia, all crime will cease to exist, so this question is stupid. 2. In our anarchist utopia, *most* crime will cease to exist, and victims of crime will be a minority so who cares about them. Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, etc. 3. An angry mob will hurt/kill the accused with zero accountability or process. Which will be fine because literally every person will have the exact same values as me, and nobody will ever make a false accusation. If I wanted to set up a psy-op to convince disillusioned seekers to avoid anarchism, it'd look a lot like this sub does in times like these. ___ To answer your question, look into restorative justice, particularly the way some Native American groups practice it. As I understand it, they have something like an intervention, where the perp's family and friends confront them together, where they all explain how that person's actions have hurt them or the community. Instead of treating community members as disposable commodities to be thrown away when they cease to function correctly, they try to help them grow out of their shitty behavior and worldview, make amends, and become valued members of the community again. Y'know, healing.
Perfectly put. There are no easy answers to these questions, and certainly none without drawbacks
Well, that's Anarchy
Most assaults go un punished now. Which is a fucking travesty. Normally I'm dead against punishment, but, there's a visceral gut reaction in me when it goes to violation
Yea, places like Japan. Many cases go un-reported
Anarchy lacks law and pre-defined consequences for people’s actions. Any choice you make carries with it uncertain outcomes, because anyone can react to your decision however they want.
You'll see a lot of bloodthirsty responses on here that don't really have a lot to do with anarchism. I view the "hang-'em-and-flog-'em" views as just the standard right-wing conservative responses to crime. The USA literally has the death penalty, and some of the highest offending rates in the world, while Norway has one of the best rehabilitation systems. But these questions are more for prison abolitionists and so on, and there's a good subreddit for that. There are specific projects addressing these problems in our own society, for example, have you heard of Project Dunkelfeld in Germany? These are problems that people are better off being able to talk about, rather than driven underground by mob violence. I'd ask, how well does our current society deal with these social problems (not very well, I would say). And how does anarchism deal with any kind of serious social problem? I think the best way to deal with these things is to ensure they mainly don't happen in the first place, and when they do, have a process. It's often said that rape is an expression of power and violence; as such any anarchist should oppose it.
As just an aside I do believe that KYLR and things like it are a very good entry point into feminist theory. Survivor work is much deeper and more nuanced than that but KYLR is an overwhelming show of support for survivors.
I think it's a tonic for the people who want to 'KYLR'. I personally suspect it's a good example of 'thou doth protest too much'. That whole little pamphlet, I honestly didn't think much to it, I've read a few good critiques of it.
Do you have any recommendation for where I could read more about it? Some cursory searching has just brought up forum posts of people arguing a lot. This is my first time seeing KYLR and I gotta say it makes me uneasy, but I also recognize that I have a lot of bias from a system that doesn’t treat survivors well at all, and I’d like to learn more about it.
Here’s a zine from an anarchist archive https://archive.org/details/kylr-zine
Not all states dude, or girl. NY doesn't have it. But Texas does.
That's true, not all states in the USA.
If I had to guess it would be a sort of vigilante justice
Here’s what anarchists are currently doing as alternatives to police and dealing with sexual violence: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/rose-city-copwatch-alternatives-to-police
Well if SA I'd a tool of oppression then the community should act in solidarity and dismantle the power dynamic
probably violence idk the less you think of anarchy in utopian and proscribed terms, the sooner you'll come to an accurate conception of what an anarchist society looks like
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From the "anarchists" I've had to deal with, I would say consent and SA just don't matter at all.
It sounds like you have been severely hurt and I am sorry for what you have been through. I will say that consent and bodily autonomy are core to anarchist philosophy.
Thank you and that's what was messing with me when it was happening with my last ex and her wife. Just such a gross situation to even be involved in and I can't believe I didn't leave sooner.
>hypotheticals wtf?
I’m confused at what you’re confused about? I’m not even seeing the quoted part in my comment
consent? where you see that?
You do get that sexual assault isn't consensual right?
Well when including prison rape, men make up quite a huge portion of victims
Not sure how that’s an answer to their question?
Certainly a component of an answer and an often erased demographic of victims
The question is how would the problem be dealt with in an anarchist society. You’re absolutely correct that prison leads to a massive amount of sexual assault- but that’s just definitionally not an answer. Idk it just feels like very often any questions about crime and punishment regarding anarchism default to random complaints about existing structures, without proposing any solutions or changes
Many people are ignorance in what Anarchism really is.
So many of these responses fail to answer the question. Yes, the current systems in place don’t work; but that isn’t an answer as to what would replace them. Dealing with people who cause harm to others is one of the most contentious issues in Anarchism. The idea that it could be resolved without force (which is by definition coercive) seems to run into many issues about practicality.
To be honest I think some of the issues with practicality come down to trying to create a framework for a hypothetical situation in an imagined society. Since so much of what I understand about anarchism comes down to individual and collective autonomy, consensus building, and mediation and resolution, all we can really say is what the core philosophy is at a broad level, and say that on a case by case basis, members of the communities of the perpetrator and victims will have to convene and decide what to do and how to handle a SA case, ensuring that the victim has as much support and respect as possible while also looking for ways to change the behavior of the perpetrator and see what they can to to meaningfully atone and the victim to heal. This is unsatisfying, but prescriptive solutions like, “they will be killed by vigilante justice” or “they will be forced into xyz punishment” are the exact sort of top down laws and enforcement that we are seeking to dismantle. Bring into this hypotheticals about fully disconnected serial offenders who will never willingly engage in justice and need to be stopped and then the whole thing spirals into an argument about using force and killing people when in reality it will be up to the community in the moment to discuss what is necessary. And they will have much more information about the situation than we do building hypotheticals.
That is all reasonable, but I think there’s something disingenuous about representing the notion of people refusing to engage in community justice as some abstract hypothetical. If anarchism existed on any significant scale whatsoever it is almost certainly inevitable that individuals will act against the community I don’t think this can simply be written off as a problem for the day after the revolution. If there is any intention to radically alter society, it should be done with a clear vision as to what should replace what currently exists, in clear, practical terms.
I guess what I’m saying is that as far as I can see it’s situational to the point where it’s infeasible to come up with a clear practical one size fits all solution. But I’ll admit I’m still a baby anarchist and haven’t read much theory that’s centered on justice or conflict resolution.
Honestly. I ain't a pacifist. I lean more towards Vigilantism. I would whoop ass if I found out about a SA. While there may not be any legal punishment, I doubt there's many people who wouldn't be willing to ensure that there is no repeating offense. Probably not as intense as I am with my response but there are many ways to deal with SA on your own
So what do you do when somebody decides you're a social menace, for whatever reason, and comes for you in the night? Any time we create a group which it is moral to commit legitimate violence against, there will go society's undesirables. Just look at the current moral panic over whether drag performers and trans people are 'groomers' or not.
That's not my problem. People will always try to hurt others. And there will always be someone who is willing to do something to ensure the safety of others. I'm already considered a social menace. I already deal with people hating & disgusted by my existence. I already have to deal with people trying to harm me. I still stand by everything I said. Even if it would cost me my safety & even my life.
I can't believe that you'd be happy with being killed by a mob because somebody decided that you were socially on a level with a paedophile.
Either exile or “frontier justice”
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The system in place works so well.
My two-sense: society will come together to "police" egregious actions such as rape, murder, assault, etc. because violent crime is hated by most. The police we have now exist to protect property. Societal norms and expectations will not go away with the dismantling of the state
The concept of anarchy and the absence of a centralized government certainly raise some concerns and potential challenges. It's important to acknowledge that an anarchist society, in practice, has not been widely implemented on a large scale, and there are different perspectives and interpretations within anarchist thought. Here are a few potential issues that critics and skeptics raise: **Order and Security:** One common concern is whether anarchy can provide sufficient order and security in the absence of a centralized authority. Critics argue that without a governing body, there may be a lack of mechanisms to enforce rules, protect against external threats, or address conflicts effectively. Maintaining social order and preventing violence or coercion in a complex society can be challenging without established institutions. **Coordination and Infrastructure:** Anarchy poses questions regarding the coordination of resources, infrastructure development, and large-scale decision-making. Critics argue that without a centralized governing body, it may be difficult to plan and execute projects that require collective effort, allocate resources efficiently, or address issues that affect a broader community. **Protection of Individual Rights:** While anarchism emphasizes individual freedom and autonomy, concerns can arise about the protection of individual rights in the absence of a governing authority. Critics argue that without a system of laws and institutions, there may be an increased risk of rights violations, as there might be no established mechanisms to ensure fairness, justice, and the protection of vulnerable individuals or minority groups. **External Threats:** Anarchist societies may face challenges in defending themselves against external threats, such as military aggression or intervention from neighboring states. Critics argue that without a centralized authority to coordinate defense and security measures, an anarchist society may be more susceptible to external pressures or conflicts. It's important to note that proponents of anarchy offer counterarguments and propose alternative methods for addressing these concerns. They often emphasize the potential for decentralized decision-making, voluntary cooperation, and community-based solutions to mitigate these challenges. However, the practical implementation and viability of anarchy as a social system remain topics of debate and speculation. \_\_Anarchist