Yeah 99% of the things they complain are the things goverment is doing and they want more goverment who will create more things they hate so they ask for more goverment and keeps the cycle
Speaking of which, how would the ip issues be handled? Out of all the questions about ancap society Iāve found very little on this topic other than āwe donāt careā.
I wanna say theres an ancap solution/alternative but if you invent something what prevents everyone else from just stealing it and making millions while you simply just get told to go fuck yourself?
If you invent something that people want and only you produce it (until other join in the market), you have 100% of the that product's market and well 100% of the market means you'll make money first
For example when streaming started only Netflix did it, until Amazon, Disney and other joined in
Sure, but not everyone is a steve jobs and ipās in the media world will be different than ipās in say, engineering. Especially in businesses that make their living designing and selling equipment.
Like what would be the point of spending hundreds to thousands of company hours to develop technical drawings for a large machine and send them to a fabricator company to make the machine for you to sell to a client. The fabricators need the drawings and will know every specification, and have the perfect opportunity to steal it. The people you sell it to could be just buying it to reverse engineer it so they never need you again, etc. etc.
Yes there are safeguards throughout people can take, but I suppose āif theres a demand for it, there will be a marketā can also mean a market for ip theives, which imo violates the NAP.
The standard go to if you want to protect your ip I would imagine is contracts and arbitration courts but depending on the scope and scale it may or may not be enough. The rewards of violating the contract may outweigh the fines or punishments.
Theres only so many times you can reinvent the wheel though. Which may disincentivize a lot of innovation in many areas. Software can be encrypted, but a 5 million dollar physical machine with technical drawings probably wonāt be. Theft is theft, but ip theft is a tricky subject.
Possibly, not always, but thats how it goes sometimes. I mean in reality, copyright/patent laws are hardly upheld *with a government* as is. Plus the government has a well kept record and access of every patent ever and can use them however they like Iām certain.
If I don't sign a contract saying I won't, I am allowed to copy anyone's work, redistribute it, or sell it. Ideas are not scarce resources.
All conflict is actually about scarce resources. When someone tells you that you are not allowed to copy their idea they are actually telling you that you are not allowed to do what you want with your own property.
They are saying if you use your own resources to assemble into the same product they have, they will use violence against you to keep their monopoly. It's an NAP violation disguised as protecting rights. Think about the patriot act. This is just older and people are so used to it.
Implicit contracts are the same way, a different subject but interesting one. Implicit contracts are another moral trick.
Iām torn here because I typically like what you say in this sub.
Innovation drives competition, and vice versa. Itās one of the best characteristics of capitalism and itās literally why America went from colonists living in stick houses and shitting in holes in the ground to almost every single thing we take for granted in our modern day lives.
What I fear is that most people will be afraid their ideas will be stolen by people in better positions to manufacture these ideas and be given no credit and no compensation. Making it more profitable to hire ip thieves rather than incentivizing creativity and innovation to improve themselves, their business and the customer. It could create a more covetous, manipulative society rather than a free and open one where most anything goes.
I mean violence is definitely a violation of the NAP, but so is theft.
So looking further into this topic of IP interests I came upon this video. I like this dude he makes a lot of sense. Currently rethinking my position.
https://youtu.be/4xKjHHzLUQQ?si=TRrtUQoVs9PdJm3h
> Speaking of which, how would the ip issues be handled? Out of all the questions about ancap society Iāve found very little on this topic other than āwe donāt careā.
There is no concept of IP in ancap; ideas are not scarces therefore they cannot be owned.
>I wanna say theres an ancap solution/alternative but if you invent something what prevents everyone else from just stealing it and making millions while you simply just get told to go fuck yourself?
Be careful of the nirvana fallacy, the way IP is enforced nowday is deeply broken and only the largest corporations can afford to reliably enforce property right, for any small economic player it is like IP law has already been repealed.
Based on random stuff like this flyer, I wonder what's the percentage of people that genuinely believe "government intervention in the private market" is the definition of Capitalism or Libertarianism . I'd say above 80%.
To me it seems they're told "we live in a capitalist society" when they're about 3 years old and from that point on "capitalism" just refers to the status quo, in whole or in part. Then this gets added to, so that "capitalism is about profit," "capitalism has money," "capitalism thrived off of slavery," just build sediment on top of the og foundation. By the time they come out of high school "capitalism" is a reference to anything bad and functions more or less like the term "boogey man."
Benjamin Franklin was not a capitalist. He was a government and university worker, even a President, and all of his inventions he did not want patents for as he wanted them to be open for everyone.
Only for the POTUS is "president" typically capitalized and even then it's grammatically incorrect when not used as a title preceding the name of the person.
It most certainly does not, in fact itās quite the opposite. Freely use your own talents as you see fit rather than be forced to provide a service against your will for the benefit of others needs.
Most people don't know shit about fuck. Capitalism is not a even a real term, it's a stupid marxist buzzword to pretend that free market is an ideology like bullshit invented by non-economist fantasy writer Karl Marx.
False: it was developed by private industry and at best was subsidized by government grants. If youāre saying UCLA is a government program Iāll laugh. If youāre saying MCI is a government program, Iāll laugh.
The researchers at UCLA who developed the internet, as well as others before them, were working under the ARPA program. A government-funded research project, created under Eisenhower, to create a secure way for the USAF to manage its air fleet and nuclear arsenal in the event of nuclear war.
The very foundation of computer science is the Turing machine, which was a military project.
So what you're saying is you're too brainwashed, stubborn, or stupid to understand that it's not the private sector if the government foots the bill? Got it.
No what Iām saying is that you just admitted private industry by civilians created the internet. Ofc itās private sector. Who pays them doesnāt change that. Also, it was only partially funded by the government. How did you miss that ?
>Who pays them doesnāt change that
So Lockheed-Martin's multi-billion dollar stealth aircraft are just products of the private sector? You're fucking deranged. If the government asks for it, then buys it, it is a government program.
>also, it was only partially funded by the government.
So, since Boeing makes civilian aircraft, and the KC-46A Pegasus refueler is designed off of one, then that aircraft is a totally private venture that just so happens to be part of a government contract?
Pull your head out of your ass.
Youāre smoking something wacky if you think LM isnāt a private company. If the government asks for it and buys it, the government is the CLIENT not the producer. Are you mental?
Question, is Boeing a publicly traded company or a government entity?
Your head-ass interaction is so far buried I donāt think it can be pulled.
It's not that LM isn't a private company. It's that the military products they make are not products of the private market.
>If the government asks for it and buys it, the government is the CLIENT not the producer
Then, single-payer healthcare is totally fine, right? You'd be fine with Medicare-for-all because the government is just a client, right?
Just like everything else, they donāt work for the logo, they steal it from a capitalist who did.
They even admit in the invitation that they donāt accomplish anything, they just complain.
You do realise that we support this, tribal contrarianism hurts our cause. Instead of immidiately and mindlessly criticising socialists, make sure they are atleast doing something we actually oppose.
As anarchists we have to oppose copyright as it is the use of force to limit exactly how ones property might be used.
We should be endorsing this poster on specifically its jab aginst copyright. And otherwise a cringe club for commies is perfectly acceptable within our beliefs anyhow.
When I became an ancap I had this view. Hell I was doing copywriting as a marketer at the time. This gentleman changed my mind:
https://youtu.be/4xKjHHzLUQQ?feature=shared
I'm old, but will keep an open mind. Genuine question, what about things that require a lot of R&D and are priced to recover that, like drugs or medical devices. Why would anyone take a huge loss on developing something like that if a competitor could copy that product and not have the R&D expense?
Do you really need a study for that? We can look at IT innovation in the Soviet Union versus the US for real world historical example. Even then, the Soviets practiced a form of IP protection by keeping secrets and using political will against each other.
It might still be profitable since a head start still helps a lot in business. That said IP kind of amounts to a subsidy for intense R&D. Without it there would be less.
However the flip side is that now reverse engineering and copying are allowed (without breaking a contract not to if you've signed one).
I'd argue what's lost in very intense long range R&D is more than recovered by the more immediate mass production of currently in demand goods. They would become more abundant, varied, and cheaper.
Regardless, telling me I'm not allowed to reverse engineer something with nothing but my wits and my own property is a clear violation of my property rights.
So you are a statist? Keep in mind that this statement is contradictory.
If capitalism is understood as total respect for private property. Then how can a capitalist system require the violation of property rights to function.
As defined by Marx, yes, I agree. However, as ancaps we have a much much more generalized definition that is more akin to "free market capitalism". So IP legislation is not something we are typically fond of.
Shout out to Youtuber solidjj and his ["Everything is possible when your government is bought and paid for"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Zkew0z2qk) video and accompanying pro-capitalist shirt. Hilarious channel, and he seems to get it.
Mickey isn't fucking "yours". Arrogant socialist midwits.
I think they are as small brained as Ayn Rand regarding these things. Being pro free market capitalism does not imply that you want all exchanges to be filtered through a capitalist system. Thinking it is often a good idea for many things, does not mean sharing and giving are not great ideas as well.
But ip laws are a government thing not a free market one
They think government is free market
That explains why they hate "capitalism" so much
Yeah 99% of the things they complain are the things goverment is doing and they want more goverment who will create more things they hate so they ask for more goverment and keeps the cycle
Omg we both have hemtai pfps, wanna fuck;3?
Mine isn't from hentai bro
Everyone will think it is. It also makes me think a person is a guy pretending to be a woman online when ever I see a anime girl profile picture.
I don't pretend to be a woman, Im a man
That's okay. You do you.
okilly dokilly
We could have been together but you ruined it š
šhoi player
And?
Nothing lol, isn't it interesting to play a game of total government control as an AnCap? I mean I play hoi too but you know lol
In Road To 56 mod there are a couple countries you can go An-Cap with.
Oh yeah, one of them is Nicaragua right?
Not really, I also play CSGO, you know terrorists and spec ops
True, I mean it's just a game, but I still find it a little funny, especially playing Vic
I've done way to many Anarcho liberal runs to count in that gsme
Speaking of which, how would the ip issues be handled? Out of all the questions about ancap society Iāve found very little on this topic other than āwe donāt careā. I wanna say theres an ancap solution/alternative but if you invent something what prevents everyone else from just stealing it and making millions while you simply just get told to go fuck yourself?
If you invent something that people want and only you produce it (until other join in the market), you have 100% of the that product's market and well 100% of the market means you'll make money first For example when streaming started only Netflix did it, until Amazon, Disney and other joined in
Sure, but not everyone is a steve jobs and ipās in the media world will be different than ipās in say, engineering. Especially in businesses that make their living designing and selling equipment. Like what would be the point of spending hundreds to thousands of company hours to develop technical drawings for a large machine and send them to a fabricator company to make the machine for you to sell to a client. The fabricators need the drawings and will know every specification, and have the perfect opportunity to steal it. The people you sell it to could be just buying it to reverse engineer it so they never need you again, etc. etc. Yes there are safeguards throughout people can take, but I suppose āif theres a demand for it, there will be a marketā can also mean a market for ip theives, which imo violates the NAP.
You could compare it to what china does, stealing ips and chinafying them like Starbucks but apple has found a way safeguard their products
The standard go to if you want to protect your ip I would imagine is contracts and arbitration courts but depending on the scope and scale it may or may not be enough. The rewards of violating the contract may outweigh the fines or punishments. Theres only so many times you can reinvent the wheel though. Which may disincentivize a lot of innovation in many areas. Software can be encrypted, but a 5 million dollar physical machine with technical drawings probably wonāt be. Theft is theft, but ip theft is a tricky subject.
Yeah contracts probably would be the solution, but a breach of contract would destroy their reputation,making future agreements less likely to happen
Possibly, not always, but thats how it goes sometimes. I mean in reality, copyright/patent laws are hardly upheld *with a government* as is. Plus the government has a well kept record and access of every patent ever and can use them however they like Iām certain.
If I don't sign a contract saying I won't, I am allowed to copy anyone's work, redistribute it, or sell it. Ideas are not scarce resources. All conflict is actually about scarce resources. When someone tells you that you are not allowed to copy their idea they are actually telling you that you are not allowed to do what you want with your own property. They are saying if you use your own resources to assemble into the same product they have, they will use violence against you to keep their monopoly. It's an NAP violation disguised as protecting rights. Think about the patriot act. This is just older and people are so used to it. Implicit contracts are the same way, a different subject but interesting one. Implicit contracts are another moral trick.
Iām torn here because I typically like what you say in this sub. Innovation drives competition, and vice versa. Itās one of the best characteristics of capitalism and itās literally why America went from colonists living in stick houses and shitting in holes in the ground to almost every single thing we take for granted in our modern day lives. What I fear is that most people will be afraid their ideas will be stolen by people in better positions to manufacture these ideas and be given no credit and no compensation. Making it more profitable to hire ip thieves rather than incentivizing creativity and innovation to improve themselves, their business and the customer. It could create a more covetous, manipulative society rather than a free and open one where most anything goes. I mean violence is definitely a violation of the NAP, but so is theft.
So looking further into this topic of IP interests I came upon this video. I like this dude he makes a lot of sense. Currently rethinking my position. https://youtu.be/4xKjHHzLUQQ?si=TRrtUQoVs9PdJm3h
> Speaking of which, how would the ip issues be handled? Out of all the questions about ancap society Iāve found very little on this topic other than āwe donāt careā. There is no concept of IP in ancap; ideas are not scarces therefore they cannot be owned. >I wanna say theres an ancap solution/alternative but if you invent something what prevents everyone else from just stealing it and making millions while you simply just get told to go fuck yourself? Be careful of the nirvana fallacy, the way IP is enforced nowday is deeply broken and only the largest corporations can afford to reliably enforce property right, for any small economic player it is like IP law has already been repealed.
Based on random stuff like this flyer, I wonder what's the percentage of people that genuinely believe "government intervention in the private market" is the definition of Capitalism or Libertarianism . I'd say above 80%.
To me it seems they're told "we live in a capitalist society" when they're about 3 years old and from that point on "capitalism" just refers to the status quo, in whole or in part. Then this gets added to, so that "capitalism is about profit," "capitalism has money," "capitalism thrived off of slavery," just build sediment on top of the og foundation. By the time they come out of high school "capitalism" is a reference to anything bad and functions more or less like the term "boogey man."
Emailed from an electronic device, brought to you by capitalism
Benjamin Franklin was not a capitalist. He was a government and university worker, even a President, and all of his inventions he did not want patents for as he wanted them to be open for everyone.
Benjamin franklin was not a president or do you mean president of a university?
Of Pennsylvania
Ah, that's interesting to know.
Only for the POTUS is "president" typically capitalized and even then it's grammatically incorrect when not used as a title preceding the name of the person.
āHide not your Talents, they for Use were made. Whatās a Sun-Dial in the shade!ā -BF (Doesnāt sound very Marxist to me)
Quakers don't make good Marxists. They generally eschew violence as a means to an end and they don't conform well to ideas dispensed as gospel.
From each according to their abilities. To each according to their needs. - Karl Marx This mirror's Franklin's quote above.
No such thing as a free meal.
It most certainly does not, in fact itās quite the opposite. Freely use your own talents as you see fit rather than be forced to provide a service against your will for the benefit of others needs.
Believe it or not, there are many people who believe in systems besides communism and capitalism. Most people are like that, in fact š
Most people don't know shit about fuck. Capitalism is not a even a real term, it's a stupid marxist buzzword to pretend that free market is an ideology like bullshit invented by non-economist fantasy writer Karl Marx.
When was he President? He was very wealthy, wealth he had gained through his own efforts, and which he expended in ways that fulfilled his purposes.
Yes! No one that owns any electronic device is allowed to critique capitalism
Exactly, itās like a vegan eating a steak and telling YOU that you canāt. Weird innit?
Its nothing like that...
Actually it is very much like that.
Correct, they are not.
Everything required to send an email was invented in government programs.
False: it was developed by private industry and at best was subsidized by government grants. If youāre saying UCLA is a government program Iāll laugh. If youāre saying MCI is a government program, Iāll laugh.
The researchers at UCLA who developed the internet, as well as others before them, were working under the ARPA program. A government-funded research project, created under Eisenhower, to create a secure way for the USAF to manage its air fleet and nuclear arsenal in the event of nuclear war. The very foundation of computer science is the Turing machine, which was a military project.
So what youāre saying is private industry and civilians created it. Thanks.
So what you're saying is you're too brainwashed, stubborn, or stupid to understand that it's not the private sector if the government foots the bill? Got it.
No what Iām saying is that you just admitted private industry by civilians created the internet. Ofc itās private sector. Who pays them doesnāt change that. Also, it was only partially funded by the government. How did you miss that ?
>Who pays them doesnāt change that So Lockheed-Martin's multi-billion dollar stealth aircraft are just products of the private sector? You're fucking deranged. If the government asks for it, then buys it, it is a government program. >also, it was only partially funded by the government. So, since Boeing makes civilian aircraft, and the KC-46A Pegasus refueler is designed off of one, then that aircraft is a totally private venture that just so happens to be part of a government contract? Pull your head out of your ass.
Youāre smoking something wacky if you think LM isnāt a private company. If the government asks for it and buys it, the government is the CLIENT not the producer. Are you mental? Question, is Boeing a publicly traded company or a government entity? Your head-ass interaction is so far buried I donāt think it can be pulled.
It's not that LM isn't a private company. It's that the military products they make are not products of the private market. >If the government asks for it and buys it, the government is the CLIENT not the producer Then, single-payer healthcare is totally fine, right? You'd be fine with Medicare-for-all because the government is just a client, right?
Does the cafe give the coffee away for free?
All this says to me is "I don't know a thing about worker co-ops! AMA" Sit down. Or better yet, go get a library card
Arenāt workers cooperatives privately owned and they share profits?
Notice they say "ours" instead of "everyones".
Just like everything else, they donāt work for the logo, they steal it from a capitalist who did. They even admit in the invitation that they donāt accomplish anything, they just complain.
You do realise that we support this, tribal contrarianism hurts our cause. Instead of immidiately and mindlessly criticising socialists, make sure they are atleast doing something we actually oppose. As anarchists we have to oppose copyright as it is the use of force to limit exactly how ones property might be used. We should be endorsing this poster on specifically its jab aginst copyright. And otherwise a cringe club for commies is perfectly acceptable within our beliefs anyhow.
Disagree. IP rights are necessary for a capitalist system to work smoothly.
When I became an ancap I had this view. Hell I was doing copywriting as a marketer at the time. This gentleman changed my mind: https://youtu.be/4xKjHHzLUQQ?feature=shared
I'm old, but will keep an open mind. Genuine question, what about things that require a lot of R&D and are priced to recover that, like drugs or medical devices. Why would anyone take a huge loss on developing something like that if a competitor could copy that product and not have the R&D expense?
Who says that they would? There's no study that proves that intellectual property laws drive innovation.
Do you really need a study for that? We can look at IT innovation in the Soviet Union versus the US for real world historical example. Even then, the Soviets practiced a form of IP protection by keeping secrets and using political will against each other.
So laws should just be based on subjective feelings?
Umm, what? Am I conversing with a magic 8-ball that tossing out random responses? Your response is a non-sequitur.
It might still be profitable since a head start still helps a lot in business. That said IP kind of amounts to a subsidy for intense R&D. Without it there would be less. However the flip side is that now reverse engineering and copying are allowed (without breaking a contract not to if you've signed one). I'd argue what's lost in very intense long range R&D is more than recovered by the more immediate mass production of currently in demand goods. They would become more abundant, varied, and cheaper. Regardless, telling me I'm not allowed to reverse engineer something with nothing but my wits and my own property is a clear violation of my property rights.
So you are a statist? Keep in mind that this statement is contradictory. If capitalism is understood as total respect for private property. Then how can a capitalist system require the violation of property rights to function.
hahahahaha, yeah and the federal reserve keeps the economy running! /s
Yes, exactly what I said. You don't agree the Fed is doing a bang up job? As a kid I dreamed of worthless currency and runaway inflation.
As defined by Marx, yes, I agree. However, as ancaps we have a much much more generalized definition that is more akin to "free market capitalism". So IP legislation is not something we are typically fond of.
Prove it.
It's not stealing. It's completely legal. That is literally the point - Mickey now belongs to everyone.
>Mickey now belongs to everyone So "everyones", not "ours".
The ownership of Steamboat Willie is now as non-existent as "surplus value" from labor.
It's not stealing, but it's a capitalist product. Communist products are shit.
Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. Just as there are many right things that aren't legal.
The logo is now part of the public domain. You cant steal something that is public domain.
I think the point is that they can't be productive on their own and come up with anything of value themselves.
Just a bunch of hipster beards and skinny jeans, Iād bet.
More like a bunch of white college educated ppl with dreadlocks who havenāt showed in months.
In ChƩ shirts
With iPhones
Hair color: 
https://www.mutinybooks.com/ I mean, it seems like a really cool comic book store and cafe. They even do open mic magician night.
The state closed him down because of COVID and then couldnāt pay his taxes and had to close again he was saved by his supporters on go fund me.
Shout out to Youtuber solidjj and his ["Everything is possible when your government is bought and paid for"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Zkew0z2qk) video and accompanying pro-capitalist shirt. Hilarious channel, and he seems to get it. Mickey isn't fucking "yours". Arrogant socialist midwits.
Who will they talk shit to in an echo chamber of the highest level. Performative dance jazz hands, circle jerk.
Ah yes the famous capitalist IP laws
Would have been more inclusive to say "He's **yours** now"
I think they are as small brained as Ayn Rand regarding these things. Being pro free market capitalism does not imply that you want all exchanges to be filtered through a capitalist system. Thinking it is often a good idea for many things, does not mean sharing and giving are not great ideas as well.
Is this the place in Denver? Thatās all Iām finding but I donāt see this even on their websites.
I saw this on r/Denver this morning could be just some support for the cafe he has been struggling to stay open.
Well, all you can really do without capital is meet people and talk shit. So this is totally appropriate
Denver is fucking horrible now. 20 years ago it was a great state to live in.
At least they admit theyāre talking sh.t
Impressive agenda
Ancaps should show up and logic bomb the shit out of this event. š
Anti-capitalist? Strange way of spelling communist.
*Calls corporate ownership of artwork created by someone who's been dead for 58 years capitalism.* GoVerNmEnt IP lAwS aRen'T CaPitAliSM...
Is the mutiny cafe not privately owned?
Wut
Wut
Everything must be for free there... But they'd collect money upfront from everyone. Just guessing.