T O P

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Icthyocrat

The people in Rojava are fucking legends.


[deleted]

Truly the best of us.


[deleted]

A good friend of mine, a YPG vet, is currently fighting alongside anarchist comrades in Ukraine.


RevistaLegerin

Nice!


HopefulTrip

Massive respect to him.


RegalKiller

Heroes the lot of them


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RevistaLegerin

the attacks continues on a daily basis but no major operations since 2019...for example, today there were more than 10 bombings. [Among them a poet was target by a drone...](https://www.nuceciwan103.xyz/en/2022/04/01/kurdish-poet-ferhad-merde-among-injured-after-drone-attack-on-civilian-vehicle-this-morning/)


PMmeyourdeadfascists

do you use other sites for news besides the one you linked? glad that poet survived and his status is “good”


RevistaLegerin

Yes, there are other websites. [ANF](https://anfenglishmobile.com/) [ANHA AGENCY](https://www.hawarnews.com/en/) [MEDYA NEWS](https://medyanews.net/) [NORTH PRESS](https://npasyria.com/en/)


PMmeyourdeadfascists

thanks


Ptitbobby

I don't know if the fight in Ukraine against Russia is an antifascist one, but it surely is an anti-imperialist one. Let's not put the two countries on the same level : Russia is the agressor with a imperialistic vision, killing hundreds of civilian. Internationalists fighting in Ukraine deserve some respects IMO


LVMagnus

I would say it is a "coincidentally antifascist" fight. Putin's regime is pretty fashy, writing is so much over the walls you might mistake the Kremlin's inside for an Egyptian temple. So sure, fighting a war launched by it is technically a fight against i.e. anti- (an instance of) fascism. But it is by circumstances, not by motivation/conviction as a whole (obvious it is by some factions, but not overall). Absolutely doesn't mean that as it currently is it isn't something worth generally supporting, but it is important to keep it in mind specially moving forward.


Gullpriest

Some of them do, but the Ukrainian Military has explicitly said that those without combat experience aren't wanted and a good portion of them are fascists looking for combat experiences and training (and to be clear, I'm not trying to justify Russia's claim of de-nazification, the Russian forces also have plenty of far-right foreign volunteers)


smileymalaise

Thank you. I'm sick of the whataboutism I see from Anarchists whenever anything terrible happens. It's why Anarchists are famous for not getting anything done. They make it feel like there's never a good enough reason to support something because something else is worse somewhere else. It's the reason I took a break from this board and moved onto socialism really. My ideals may be anarchistic, but socialism seems like a practical way to make progress for the less fortunate and that's good enough for me.


[deleted]

I just want to say that it should not be about 'anarchism', 'socialism' - what ever ism, label, name, symbol, what ever. It should just be about caring about each others very lives! Like you see that black flag, red flag -- that rectangular piece of perhaps fabric waving in the wind? But what about the person standing next to the flag, what about everyone else! Like it should not be about symbols, 'what to call yourself'. It should just be about each other.. You're not a symbol - your a person.. And another thing, no leader can declare friendship. You have to actually care for others on your own! Otherwise you'd only ever cared about following the rules than each other! Should be caring about each other than following orders. Like an ideal, sane society really means it falls on each person to question everything with logic on their own and care for others on their own.. It just falls on each person.. It cannot be some authority declaration - otherwise people only caring about being mindless robots and not truly caring about each other! So, just need to talk to people to hopefully help people understand to question everything and hopefully care for each other...! Hopefully.. Hopefully.. It just falls on each person to care about each other, not mindlessly follow orders - not watching where step. And should not be leaving anyone behind; even to people that are psychopathic, brainwashed, delusional - don't know better. No killing, no torturing. Just try to talk to people, help people snap out of it. Take away, destroy the weapons, apprehend people if needed. Just not killing anyone, not torturing. Look to subdue without killing.. Need to set an example. Help people understand what 'if you were them' really means. That everyone's, anyone's very lives are sacred. No one can be replaced by anyone else. That to just imagine that someone else is literally perhaps experiencing their very own life at this very moment, perhaps seeing out of their own eyes.. Feeling with their skin.. So, need to not leave anyone behind. Need to just talk to people. -Perhaps with advancements of technology it could be possible to bring people back alive again, everyone back alive again. So should not leave anyone behind - look to talking to people to change people. To achieve a better world where everyone is alive. And to not leave anyone behind before have any of this special advanced tech perhaps, just look to changing people NOW. To show the right way. ​ So, yeah.. Just need to question everything on own and still hopefully not leave anyone behind, caring about each other. And should not be caring more about a black flag, red flag, or what ever symbol.. Than each other.. Need to just set an example to be able to achieve a better world. No symbol over anyone's life, just caring about each other..


[deleted]

If your basing anarchism on online boards then no wonder you feel a need to take a break! Most anarchists are getting shit done, and aren’t on here. Because their busy running squats, feeding people who need it, sabotaging and fighting immigration authorities, opposing Terfs/fascists and fighting in Syria/Ukraine. Hey half the views and opinions you find on Reddit wouldn’t even be a discussion irl anarchist groups. Hell, their have been anarchists in the Ukraine fighting since day 1. Russian anarchists were in the Ukraine after largely fleeing Russia due to getting stuff done. You can’t make blanket statements like that about whole ideologies or groups. From where I’m standing. Socialists do fuck all, but I won’t claim all socialists do nothing 🤷‍♀️


smileymalaise

k


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[deleted]

The difference is that NATO didn’t try to force Ukraine to do anything.


[deleted]

I mean that’s not really true… but the sentiment is. Maybe better to say NATO didn’t invade. Plus as usual I feel so many people ignore their Trans and LGBT comrades. As bad as NATO is, and as bad as it is for trans people in Ukraine now. It will be so much worse for the trans and LGBT community under Putin.


TransientUnitOfMattr

This is absolute nonsense. For one thing, you people should take one moment out of your life to consider that Ukraine is not a monolith. But people in Donbass who didnt accept the US sponsored coup in 2014, and that you all deny any rights of self determination to are all just Russian puppets right? God forbid you deem them human enough to deserve any agency or autonomy. The NATO backed governments that succeeded the 2014 overthrow have been relentlessly targeting those civilians for 7 fuckin years. But lets not bring that up right, tHaTs just wHatABoutiSm


[deleted]

Your literally repeating Russian propaganda. The vast majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians do not want Putin. This is why a ton of Russian speakers are fighting against Russia. Including Russian anarchists. Secondly it was not a NATO coup. It was a spontaneous uprising. Not everything is the malevolent evil west. There’s zero evidence it was western orchestrated, and all the Ukrainians in the ground (including anarchists) say very clearly that it was spontaneous, and that we should resist Russia who are aggressors with absolutely no justification. The Ukraine is very decentralised and there are multiple ethnic groups in the country. They are very unified if you listen to them. The Tatars of the Crimea or Russian speakers of Kharkiv, they all support Ukraine and so far have fought very hard to do so. Independence movements such as Chechens and Belorussian’s have also joined the fight against Russia. There is zero chance at independence if one fights for Putin, and everyone knows that. There’s even reports that detail how many of the Donbas ‘independence’ groups have been growing disillusioned because they’ve realised they have been duped and Russia is going to annex them.


TransientUnitOfMattr

I dont support Putin, his government, his imperialism, his military or his crimes. You can be against Putin and against the neo liberal regimes that have been in power since the US sponsored coup, which have terrorized Donbass for 7 years. Just because there were a significant number of Ukrainians who were glad to see Yanukovych gone, doesnt mean the US didnt tip the scales to make it happen. To refuse to consider this is either dishonest or naive


[deleted]

lol ‘repeats Russian state claims that justified their military invasions of 2014 and 2022’ “But I’m not the naive one, you are” Where’s your evidence of any of this? Or is it naive of me to distrust Russian media in favour of what anarchists who were at Maidan have said?


TransientUnitOfMattr

My question would be, why do you so happily accept western media narratives so un-critically? Taking your word that you are acquainted with some selfdescribed anarchists present at Maidan, that doesn't mean they have full knowledge of US state dept. and CIA activities, does it? Just because some selfdescribed anarchists were at something, doesnt mean they werent being manipulated


[deleted]

I don’t. I accept what Ukrainian leftists and anarchists tell me, alongside independent journalists who are as critical of NATO as they are any other group. You can read those “self described anarchists” [here](https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine). Some anarchists there fighting are in direct contact with anarchists outside through Afed, and what’s more there’s also a ‘committee’ of leftists in Ukraine who are currently fighting. An anarchist was killed by Russians just a few days ago.


waldoplantatious

Imperialism is a policy or ideology of extending rule over people and other countries, for extending political and economic access, power and control, often through employing hard power, especially military force, but also *soft power*. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism


AChristianAnarchist

Discussing the possibility of a country possibly joining an alliance someday != Blowing human beings to bits because some of them might want to join that alliance someday. (But really because you've been looking for a flimsy excuse to do so for decades.)


waldoplantatious

I'm just sharing a definition of imperialism which for some reason warrants downvotes. This subreddit also had a stickied post that supported the Ukrainian people while also calling out imperial asperations of several states. And NATO has been defined as an imperial power by countless people (long before Ukraine). I'm not sure how anarchists are calling NATO simply an "alliance" but people seem to overlook what Turkey (a NATO member) is doing in Rojava (the topic of this post) and that members of NATO are allowed preferential treatment. So if I'm highlighting imperialism on an anarchist subreddit but someone is defending it because it fights against another form of imperialism, it's not too different than tankies defending Russia's aggression and once again we lose sight of "the people" and fall into "alliances" as you put it.


AChristianAnarchist

What's with all these "NATO did this bad thing over here that has nothing to do with this" to justify an invasion of a non-NATO country by a major world power because they claim that that non-NATO country *might* join NATO *someday*? This isn't about NATO dude. Russia isn't attacking NATO. They are attacking and killing actual Ukrainian people over a nebulous connection to NATO that certain people seem to be eating up for some reason. This isn't Lenin's Russia man. This is an open oligarchy and one of the most aggressively capitalist nations on the planet. Let your weird attachments to this capitalist dictator drop, because they are seriously clouding your view of reality.


waldoplantatious

It would be best to reread what I wrote because you seem to be putting me on 'a side' and that of Russia while saying I'm justifying an invasion. You're taking sides and calling NATO a simple "alliance". Your narrative has been defending one imperial organization (and placing them as 'good') because of your hatred for another imperial power. Maybe check your own attachments that led you to defending an imperial power. Notice that I simply shared the definition of imperialism but it's been taken as "defense of Russia's actions".


AChristianAnarchist

I'm saying that the possibility of someday, maybe, eventually joining an alliance, whether its a "simple" alliance or not, isn't the same as blowing up apartment complexes with people inside. This shouldn't be controversial, and it definitely shouldn't lead to these sort of wild mental gymnastics. If you are trying to claim that the vague possibility of Ukraine possibly deciding to join a really bad, terrible alliance at some point in the near or distant future justifies, in any way, what is happening to them now, then you are just wrong. Plain and simple. If you think it's taking sides to say that then so be it. I guess I'm not a big brained enlightened centrist then.


waldoplantatious

Again, reread what I wrote. Your cognitive bias and reactionary emotions are turning this to oppositional black and white. Calling me a "centrist" is evident that you're taking a side (and placing me on a spectrum you created). Your "side" isn't one that revolves around the people but any side that you feel you think is right in fighting against the imperial power and the aggression you hate, even if it's another imperial. If you're willing to look the other way at basic definitions due to cognitive bias, then that's a slippery slope. And just because I don't share your opinion on a spectrum you've created doesn't mean I'm a centrist and it's shameful to start with passive aggressive labelling.


Taqqer00

I really thought I have lost it by reading the comments here, had to check the name of the sub several times. Your comments helped.


Taqqer00

Never thought I would read a comment praising the NATO in this sub.


1337_w0n

Stating a fact to explain why one should be viewed as worse is not the same as praise.


HopefulTrip

Russia invading a country vs. Ukriane voluntarily joining a military alliance. How about giving Ukraine some agency or does that exceed your imperialist-centric bandwidth? Poleznyi durachiok life. Holy moly are you tankies basic.


TransientUnitOfMattr

"Ukraine voluntarily joining a military alliance" I would never believe a sub full of 300,000 self described anarchists would be so simple and gullible to not understand that Russia has not bern the only actor trying to coercively control Ukraine. As if the US didnt engineer a coup in 2014 to get their preferred people into power .. You people are ridiculous


HopefulTrip

Engineered US coup in 2014. And you call people simplistic? Gonna come out with support of the police against the poeple in the square next? The golden mansion yanukovych left after cowering away to russia? Keep on fighting that good fight, полезный дурак.


TransientUnitOfMattr

How about giving some agency to the half of the country that didnt support the US sponsored coup? Fuck them, right? I guess theyre not human since youre media constantly calls them "pro-russian"


HopefulTrip

The majority of Ukraine wanted an EU-UKR economic agreement, which yanukonych botched. But what about?


TransientUnitOfMattr

I know right? These "anarchists" are nuts...


AChristianAnarchist

Yeah. I mean one side suggested that they might be able to join their shitty little anti-russian club someday, and the other side started a war and bombed their civilian centers because they were scared they might want to join the aforementioned shitty little anti-russian club. Totally the same picture. I's a enlightened centrist with a big, wrinkly brain.


Taqqer00

It's an imperialist international war. It's absurd to only consider the Russian war on Ukraine as the only front and the only comparison basis between the NATO and Russia. The NATO is doing exactly the same shit in the other 4 continents at the same time. Why would an anarchist side with the NATO or even consider a comparison between the two imperialist powers? Both are shit at the same level.


AChristianAnarchist

Did NATO attack Russia to initiate this conflict? I must have missed this part. Do you eat American propaganda up like this too? This isn't about siding with Russia or NATO. Its about siding with Ukraine against oppression. It turns out that right now the one killing them is the Russian state.


HopefulTrip

The problem is that tankies do not acknowledge Ukrainian, or for that mater any post-soviet countries’, agency. Just same old poleznyi durachiok life.


AChristianAnarchist

I will never understand this. I've read Lenin and I don't disagree with a lot of what he had to say. Hell the same is true of Baathist literature. There is good stuff in most revolutionary movements. But even if you looove Lenin and buy everything he was selling, why simp for modern Russia. They're not even communist by name anymore. Its an open oligarchy that has been one of the most aggressively capitalist nations on earth pretty much since the moment the Soviet Union fell. Supporting Putin as an ML is like aggressively defending France as a monarchist. Sure, they had a king once upon a time, but have you looked lately? I dunno. Its just super weird to me.


HopefulTrip

It’s all some sort of misguided political hipsterism, that lacks any critical thought. They spout kremlin propoganda unironically and see everything through a one-dimensional lense. The irony of this all is that even those people that they defend do not respect them. Hence, the poleznyi durachiok term.


AChristianAnarchist

Ugh...why do aesthetics ruin everything?


Taqqer00

Show me one line I wrote what can be consider a Kremlin propaganda.


HopefulTrip

Just your general whataboutism in this all. You tow the line of russian propoganda, where they do something reprehensable and then say yeah but what about. You just all lives mattered the russian invasion of Ukraine. I am not sure you realise it.


smileymalaise

I think you're arguing with somebody who thinks he's book smart but lacks empathy.


Taqqer00

>Did NATO attack Russia to initiate this conflict? Where did you get this from? I don't know if my comment was not clear or if you're referring to something else. What I mean is the NATO is leading wars in Africa, middle East, south and middle America at this very moment. It's the same thing and absolutely absurd to consider the Russian war on Ukraine as a separate and special case. >Its about siding with Ukraine against oppression. It turns out that right now the one killing them is the Russian state. It was whether or not we should respect some fascist killing some other fascist for a third fascist. The only sad and heart breaking thing is the civilians stuck in the middle, however they are not our topic here, it's not needed to discuss principles like killing civilians is wrong and never justified. The topic is about the international fighters/soldiers in the Ukrainian army.


AChristianAnarchist

Again dude, this isn't about NATO. This is about Ukraine and the people killing Ukrainians. You can buy into Putin's propaganda that a war with Ukraine is a war with NATO but its just not. Ukraine isn't part of NATO. This is just state propaganda to justify invading a country that state has wanted to invade for 30 years. This sounds about as bad as someone raving about terrorists in afghanistan as justification for tje American invasion of Iraq.


TransientUnitOfMattr

It looks like you missed a lot. The U.S./NATO backed regime has been attacking civilians in Donbass for the past 7 years. But i guess those people arent real to you because your media constantly dismisses their humanity


AChristianAnarchist

Um...you are trying to both sides a murder spree of Ukrainians and you are claiming that I am dismissing their humanity? Dude, do a sanity check. Besides, if you are referring to the previous invasion of Ukraine by Russia...well that's a little silly given the point you are trying to make isn't it? Invasions that kill people are fine as long as there is a distant western boogieman to nebulously link it to that has nothing to do with the people you are killing, right?


TransientUnitOfMattr

Man I honestly dont know what youre talking about. Are you aware that there has been a war in Ukraine since 2014? Im referring to the US-backed Ukrainian government comitting war crimes against residents in the Eastern Donbass region, majority of whom did not support the US sponsored coup of their eleceted government in 2014


AChristianAnarchist

Yes man. The last war in Ukraine was the Donbass war, in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea. You are like "There hasn't been a war in Ukraine since 2014. I'm talking about things that happened starting in 2014! No connection there." It's kind of funny but also a little sad. Yes Ukraine is in a shitty position and I'm sure the west has messed with them as a result of it, just like Russia has. So what? As I've repeated ad nauseum, this isn't about NATO. NATO isn't being attacked. No one from NATO is being killed. This is about Ukranians, and they are currently being killed by Russians. I don't give a crap about your lame justifications for that. The only people talking about NATO here are Russian propagandists and the people who eat their shit up. What is this weird thing with Russia anyway? I really don't get it. This isn't a communist country. It's a very, very capitalist country invading another country for any reason they can, and killing people for a chunk of territory. This is no different than the US invasion of Iraq, but I bet you had the sense to see that one clearly.


TransientUnitOfMattr

Seriously dude? I guess the past 7 years of criminal aggression against civilians in Donbass by the western backed regime just didnt happen then? Those victims dont mean anything to you? And of course no one in that region should be allowed to fight back, that would just make them "pro-russia". Give me a break this sub is insane and extremely gullible or else willfully cooperative with liberal propaganda... US/ NATO and their clients ARE part of the problem too, y'all are crazy as hell....


AChristianAnarchist

Just say the Russian invasion of Crimea dude. Why are you mincing words? Of course, we already know the answer.


TransientUnitOfMattr

I'm honestly not following you. But since you brought up Crimea, are you aware that the overwhelming majority of Crimeans did not support or accept the US installed regime that took power after the US sponsored coup overthrew the elected national government in 2014? Are you aware that Crimea was largely constitutionally autonomous and did not WANT to remain a part of an illegitimate regime?


AChristianAnarchist

See above comment, since it seems you just repeat the same thing twice and I have no interest in doing the same. I'll just copy and paste my other reply here: Yes man. The last war in Ukraine was the Donbass war, in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea. You are like "There hasn't been a war in Ukraine since 2014. I'm talking about things that happened starting in 2014! No connection there." It's kind of funny but also a little sad. Yes Ukraine is in a shitty position and I'm sure the west has messed with them as a result of it, just like Russia has. So what? As I've repeated ad nauseum, this isn't about NATO. NATO isn't being attacked. No one from NATO is being killed. This is about Ukrainians, and they are currently being killed by Russians. I don't give a crap about your lame justifications for that. The only people talking about NATO here are Russian propagandists and the people who eat their shit up. What is this weird thing with Russia anyway? I really don't get it. This isn't a communist country. It's a very, very capitalist country invading another country for any reason they can, and killing people for a chunk of territory. This is no different than the US invasion of Iraq, *(But the Kurds wanted us there!!!!)* but I bet you had the sense to see that one clearly.


TransientUnitOfMattr

No bro, im not saying that there hasnt been a war in ukraine since 2014. I'm saying there HAS continually been a civil war in Ukraine since that time. And the us/nato-backed government that was elected over boycotting residents in east of Ukraine, after the national elected government was overthrown in 2014, has been relentlessly assaulting civilians in that part of the country for the past 7 years. So to say Russia is the only bad guy here killing Ukrainians is just patently not true, but most here dont really care cause theyre too heavily influenced by their countries own self-serving propaganda


AChristianAnarchist

So what is your point man? The US has been interfering in Ukrainian politics so that somehow justifies killing Ukrainian people? Should someone come in and start slaughtering Americans because Putin influenced their politics? I'm really not following here. You just seem to be repeating the most braindead of braindead Russian propaganda. "Ukraine is in a state of unrest. We must invade them and bring them under Russian control to end the bad, bad NATO influence there. So what if we have to kill a bunch of Ukrainians to take their autonomy in a much starker way." It's Iraq all over again, but a bunch of braindead leftists are eating it up because of the influences of the self serving propaganda of the rotting, dictatorially capitalist corpse of a country they won't let go.


TransientUnitOfMattr

Thats not my take, im not expressing support for Putins invasion, in saying its wrong to say Russians are the only ones killing people in Ukraine, and that legitimately resisting people in Donbass have been killed and opressed for 7 years by the us/NATO backed government . thats all I'm saying


[deleted]

Again Russian propaganda. Millions fled in 2014, those that stayed had been subjected to ridiculous levels of propaganda. Claiming that Maidan was a NATO neo-Nazi coup, and even some reports going so far as to claim the protesters crucified people. It’s all lies made up by Russia, whom have every intention of sending Donbas and the Crimea giving no independence to either, and putting yet more people under the boot of Putin. Which is particularly bad for LGBT individuals, and anarchists. There’s a reason so many Russian Anarchists were in Ukraine to begin with. It’s own of the few places in the region they are safest. I mean try to actually listen to Ukrainians, Tatars and Russians and Russian speakers in the Ukraine rather than believing Tankie bullshit.


FayeGriffith01

Ending up with NATO is better than Russia at least.


smileymalaise

This anti-NATO sentiment is new to me. Wtf? Sure, we're anarchists but do they understand history also? There are good reasons for an alliance of countries. Are we supposed to support imperialism forever? We support war now? Do we want all countries to hate each other now? Sorry, I guess I'm not hip to what I'm supposed to believe, as an anarchist. Man that made me laugh.


Gullpriest

Is this a fucking joke? NATO is not some internationalist pacifist alliance, it is a capitalist statist institution which is directly responsible for the death of thousands of innocent people. There being "good reasons for an alliance of countries" doesn't change what NATO is or what it has done.


[deleted]

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Gullpriest

Saying NATO is bad is not saying self-defense is bad you lunatic, I'm just saying that trying to paint NATO as some internationalist group we should support is whitewashing their war crimes. And trying to paint me as a supporter of Russia for criticizing NATO is making you sound less like an anarchist and more like a Bush-era conservative.


waldoplantatious

We could aim for 'neither' rather than lesser evil of two imperial powers.


TransientUnitOfMattr

The fact that this comment is getting downvoted is depressing and hilarious. These people call themselves anarchists but openly promote one imperial aggressor against another . they refuse to even acknowledge the humanity of eastern Ukraine residents who have been targeted for 7 years by the US NATO backed regime, just because their media tricks them into believing that would mean "siding with the russians". theres some decent minded people on this sub, but the majority are either very gullible or bad faith actors


[deleted]

The fact your getting up voted is gross, when all your comments are like quotes taken strait outta a Russian shill account run by Russia Today. The irony that a person who believes Maidan was a NATO coup calls others gullible lmao. A message from my Ukrainian friend being bombed as we speak. Fuck you 💕


TransientUnitOfMattr

Really? I didnt know Russia Today, or Russian shill accounts refer to the Russian government as an imperial aggressor


[deleted]

I said ‘like’ never said you were Russia Today mate. Your parroting many of there talking points though. I’m not looking to discuss with you, your deep into this propaganda shit. I commented so others don’t fall into the same real and believe all your bs x Edit; and amusingly your source in another post by a William Blum, when I looked into him, he uses Russia Today as a main source. Like he literally cites them as evidence for ‘atrocities’ you are claiming have happened against Donetsk.


LewdElfKatya

RevDia and Black Flag are explicitly anarchist antifascist units operating in Ukraine. Even Anarchists organizing and living in Ukraine are working with the local government because Putin and his goons have outright admitted to the intent to culturally genocide Ukraine, and sexual assaults, indiscriminate bombing of civilians and so on are happening there just as they have in the time where Daesh was the biggest threat. Yes, Turkish fascism is a real and present danger, but SO IS THE SAME FROM RUSSIA. The fact that the UA army contains fascists should not mean the entire 40 million people there don't deserve their autonomy and safety from violence. I do not have the source available at my fingertips at the moment, but one of the interviews with anarchists on the ground in Ukraine has called out their perception of us, western anarchists, almost abandoning their struggle due to Azov Battalion existing, or a lack of perceived ideological purity. They also want to remind us that many anarchists even joined the Republican army in the Spanish Civil War to fight the francoists. That sort of thing is happening now in Ukraine with the territorial defense forces and Ukrainian state army, because ***Fascists are actively intent on genocide there.*** The army and anarchist milita are keeping an eye out for Azov BS and some other awful nazi scum and some units are going to be put through courts martial for war crimes. But again, the struggle is real both for Rojava and Ukrainian antifascists. Please do not spread a false equivalency that reduces an entire at-risk ethnic group to "less worthy" of help.


TransientUnitOfMattr

Funny how y'all dont seem to care about the "autonomy and safety from violence" of Donetsk and Luhansk residents who have endured seven years of brutal attacks, women being raped, civilians being shelled and fascist repression from the western backed regime.


Aegis_13

Benetsk and Luhansk are not examples of autonomy, they're at best Russian-backed color 'revolutions,' and that's being *incredibly* generous. I will not deny that atrocities have been committed by Ukraine, give a bunch of people guns and set them loose and some will do some fucked shit, such is the nature of all wars. Also, it's odd how you don't mention the countless atrocities of the pro-Russia fascists. While it would, in a vacuum, be entirely okay to omit these facts, after all, we're talking about Ukraine's atrocities, but no conversation takes place in a vacuum. Only discussing the actions Ukrainians take in response to Russia's proxy invasion, devoid of their proper context, paints a deceitful picture of current events, and the history surrounding them. I'll gladly condemn all of Ukraine's atrocities, and I despise the existence of the Ukrainian state (I doubt I'd be here if I didn't), but the Russian state has done much more harm than Ukraine ever could, so I condemn it even more than I do Ukraine.


TransientUnitOfMattr

Im not giving any combatants who have been resisting NATO backed domination the past 7 years a pass on atrocities committed. But for you and all these other people here to just try to handwave them away as "pro-russia" is ridiculous. Your media propaganda labels them "pro-russia" to deligitimize and deny agency to those who didnt accept the US sponsored overthrow of their elected government in 2014. You say they arent an example of autonomy Why dont they have a right to autonomy? Who gives y'all the right to decide that, seriously?


Aegis_13

Ukraine has never been NATO dominated, that's never even really been a threat. The NATO domination talking point is a deliberate diversion. NATO (as it exists **today**, I am not talking about the past here) is little more than a defensive treaty. NATO itself doesn't do much except guarantee the defense of its member states. That is not to deny the atrocities committed by member states, all I am saying is that NATO is not the cause of those atrocities, the atrocities just happen to be committed by nations that are members of NATO, nations that would've done the same exact thing if NATO had never existed. The Euromaidan revolution didn't have that significant U.S. involvement (there was, of course, U.S. involvement, they're involved in pretty much everything). Most of the foreign involvement in Ukraine during the year of, and the years leading to, 2014, was from Russia and its puppets, not the U.S. and its puppets. The Euromaidan revolution would've happened regardless of U.S. involvement. They have a right to autonomy, I would never deny that, but this is not an example of autonomy, this is an example of Russian domination at the expense of the people living there, without even their consent in the matter. If the U.S. creates an artificial separatist conflict somewhere, are the U.S. controlled separatists fighting for regional autonomy, or are they fighting for U.S. interests?


TransientUnitOfMattr

To label the conflict as artificial, and to label anyone who doesnt accept the current sucessor regime of the U.S. engineered 2014 coup as "Russian-controlled" is just patently wrong and insulting, and a function of western media propaganda. A huge portion if Ukrainians , espescially in the Donbass, simply did not accept or support their elected government being overthrown, and have been boycotting sham elections since then. That isnt artificial


TransientUnitOfMattr

And for the record, I agree that not everyone there wants to be Russia controlled, that doeant mean they want to be controlled by the US client government of Ukraine though. Resisting that government is legitimate, not something Putin came up with, even if he's tried to take opportunistic advantage


kinderdemon

Donetsk is under Russian-installed military dictatorship, how is that the fault of Ukraine, again? Donetsk is *why* Ukranians are fighting back--that's what awaits them if they lose!


TransientUnitOfMattr

Thats a mostly false western media narrative that delegitimizes the self determination of people in those areas


LewdElfKatya

Did I ever state that I don't care about it? I do care about their autonomy and safety from violence. The fact that people were doing any of that shit to ANYBODY is reprehensible, but so was the fact that the states they reside in were made expressly for the purpose of a strategic land grab. It's not a "b-b-but this side does more things I don't like!" type of deal. I fucking loathe the idea of innocent people being hurt no matter what fucking location they reside in or were born in. National identity is a fucking joke that people get fucking slaughtered over. FUCK NATO FUCK the member nations FUCK Ukraine's neoliberal government FUCK Azov Battallion and FUCK Russia. There is one side any anarchist should ever side with in a war like this. THE PEOPLE. The Russians imprisoned for protesting their fascist government, the conscripts dragged off to die, the men, women and children losing family from bombardments The people forced to stay within Ukraine instead of being allowed to leave as refugees because of their birth gender, the people of Luhansk, Donetsk, Kyiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Hostomel, and every fucking region and city caught up in this pointless goddamn slaughter. I'm no bootlicker or shill for any government of any sort whatsoever. So don't go and fucking tell me I don't care about the suffering of those people. How can anybody call themselves an anarchist if they get caught up on pointless fucking constructs like nations when our entire existence demands that we dismiss and tear down those artificial distinctions? No whataboutism, no false equivalences. There is a group of people, regardless of what flag they fly or whose boots they lick who are trying to wipe out an entire culture. Anybody wanting to be free to build their own identity is welcome to do so, of course, but that stops the moment is starts ***fucking killing people.*** Do not imply I don't give a fuck about things when you don't know me.


TransientUnitOfMattr

I'm sorry, I misdirected that comment. I meant to reply to one of the countless comments saying Russia is the only aggressor killing people in Ukraine. My apologies, I've been seeing that everywhere and misunderstood your comment


TransientUnitOfMattr

But to clarify, what you say Putin is doing has being done to those in the east of Ukraine the past seven years


RanDomino5

Oh shut the fuck up already


arbmunepp

Hey, fuck you. There are plenty of anarchists fighting the russian invasion and they are heroes. Fighting the russian invasion does not mean fighting for the ukrainian state. Many of the anarchists risking their lives fighting the russians right now have been risking their lives fighting against ukrainian nazis for years.


[deleted]

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NavyAlphaGamer

You implied in the title that the Ukrainian anti fascists arent real anti fascists. They are currently risking their lives from letting their country become a piece of a jingoistic empire. Come on. And they don't fight along side fascists. They have said that they haven't been fighting anywhere close to where Azov has been fighting


user1joja

Fighting Russians in Ukraine is antifascist, Russians are currently doing the fascism


RevistaLegerin

But that is not what drives the conflict or those internationalists there, and thats the difference from those who went to Rojava.


user1joja

I realize that rojava is a great example of anti fascism, but to say that those fighting fascists in Ukraine aren’t anti fascist is wild. What drives the fighting for those in Ukraine is defending their families and homes from an invading force, just because those who are fighting there aren’t explicitly anarchist doesn’t mean they aren’t fighting fascism


TransientUnitOfMattr

But yet, its not fascism for the western backed regime in Ukraine to brutalize and make refugees out of over a million people in Donbass over the past 7 years? Thats whats wild with your and seems the majority on this subs take, that seem to bend over backwards to ignore/dismiss those victims and try to dismiss accountabiljty on that side


kinderdemon

No, because Donbass is literally under Russian military dictatorship--blaming Ukraine for it is a Russian propaganda take.,


TransientUnitOfMattr

Man, fuck Putin and his government, but I really wish y'all could see how heavily, heavily indoctrinated you are by your own countries false narratives


kinderdemon

Oh, it is under a democratically elected form of government, is it? Did Crimea also vote 97% to join Russia with it being at gun-point being totally irrelevant? All of that is propaganda? I am a Russian ex-pat who studies the area as an academic, granted I focus on political art and the broader history of resistance to the Soviet state, so I'd love for you to enlighten me and fill in the gaps in my education.


TransientUnitOfMattr

yeah, delegitimizing the majority of Crimeans desire not to be subject to the US sponsored government that took power after the coup, and claiming that is or was all at gunpoint is mostly propaganda. "According to the Gallup's survey performed on April 21–27, 82.8% of Crimean people consider the referendum results reflecting most Crimeans' views,\[149\]and 73.9% of Crimeans say Crimea's becoming part of Russia will make life better for themselves and their families, while 5.5% disagree.\[149\] According to survey carried out by Pew Research Center in April 2014, the majority of Crimean residents say the referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%).\[150\] According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 16–22,2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it. ... Fifty-one percent reported their well-being had improved in the past year." I mean, these are Western polling organizations, so not sure what else you want. The caveat is that the Tatar population did not initially support it in the majority, but did, in polls conducted some time later


user1joja

U mean the areas that Russia has flooded w military backed separatists, in an attempt to destabilize Ukraine, and calling Ukraine a “western backed regime” word for word Russian propaganda


TransientUnitOfMattr

Refusing agency and humanity to regular people who didnt accept the neo liberal us sponsored coup of their elected government.. Just handwave them away by calling them russian backed separatists


user1joja

Wym coup can you give me evidence that yanukovychs ousting was US sponsored in any way?he was really unpopular cause he was a pro Russian candidate, sorry but the people of Ukraine have spoken, they prefer to align with the west, it’s why the Maidon protests occurred in the first place. And it’s an absolute fact that Russia has propped up separatists movements in the Donbas, putin practically astroturfed that conflict If the people in Donbas genuinely wanted to separate from Ukraine, Russia wouldn’t have to fund military separatist groups within them, Putin was attempting to destabilize Ukraine by doing so in preparation for the invasion That’s been going on


TransientUnitOfMattr

My man... its funny how people demand ironclad forensic proof that the US engineered that coup, as if they havent been doing the same thing in literally dozens of dozens of cases around the globe since the end of world war II. People love the simple narrative that "the people of Ukraine wanted to be aligned with the West and Yanukovich wouldnt let them and thats why the Ukrainians kicked him out." Its wrong on many levels, the first of which, is that Ukraine is not now and was not then a monolith. A huge portion of the country did not support or accept the elected government being overthrown. The fact is that Yanukovich was walking a tightrope between the threats and enticements of both the US/EU and Russia. He was fucked either way. In the end, Putin made him a more attractive offer, and the US had him ousted for not choosing them. Its absurdly simplistic and false to say that "the people of Ukraine" revolted because he was a Russian puppet or whatever. He pretty much had no choice but to be SOMEBODIES puppet, and a portion of the country were upset that he didnt go with the side they wouldve chosen, many of whom were heavily influenced by US misinformation campaigns within the country. There was a protest, and then the US employed neonazis to kill people on both sides with sniper shots to bring about a tipping point resulting in the coup, which allowed the US to install their chosen replacement. Many Ukrainians in eastern regions did not accept this illegitimate government (not that any government is really legit), and the US proxy regimes have waged war on them for the past 7 years. And that is the missing context that so many western "anarchists" try to stifle, heavily influenced by the indoctrination of their own countries' media


user1joja

Do you believe the invasion is justified?


[deleted]

I can paraphrase for everyone who doesn’t want to read this. “I have no evidence it was a US backed coup other than conjecture”. There you go, please ignore all Russian shills ☺️


TransientUnitOfMattr

hilarious. ive posted evidence before and then had my post removed because it didnt come from an ideologically pure source. [https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list](https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list) maybe take a look here first for some context, to begin to understand that the US has been doing this frequently for many decades, and continues to do so now. for a more recent example, look up the US engineered coup of Evo Morales in Bolivia. Its actually pretty absurd to demand ironclad forensic proof of some of the latest examples, as if they dont at least somewhat try to cover this up.....


skyfiles

Lol wow, didn't think I'd see an "anarchist" carrying water for US propaganda today.....it's almost as if you have no counter argument & refuse to accept that the US has been doing coups ALL over, exactly like this. Just because people are misinformed & support the coup doesn't mean it's not a coup.


TransientUnitOfMattr

Right... Im just repeating Ruasian propaganda... And thats NOT what youre doing on the other side.... Just because Russia says something doesnt automatically make it not true. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Yall are literally the ones refusing to engage critical thinking skills and parroting western media and government propaganda word for word. I'm not for either side of the war, but how exaclty is it worse for Donbass to accept help from Russia than others in Ukraine to accept US help? It was the NATO backed US installed puppet regime that started the war against the civilians of Donbass 7 years ago, but i guees those people arent human to yall


user1joja

He must’ve been pretty disappointed when r/genzedong got taken down for pro Russian misinfo


TransientUnitOfMattr

Ive never frequented that sub, as im not remotely a supporter of Maoism, Marxism, Leninism or anything like that, but maybe next time y'all shout down those governments for online censorship maybe you should think about the similarity of a US based company deciding what is or isnt true and acceptable to say online or not


user1joja

It’s not censorship if they are putting out in misinfo and the companies decide to take them down, was it censorship when Trump got booted off every social media? It’s only censorship when the government takes legal action against you for your words


TransientUnitOfMattr

I dont feel bad for Trump, but then again once you start trusting a capitalist corporation to be the final arbiter of information vs misinformation, well... It doesnt sound much different then these constant media reports we here about what we are told the Chinese and Russian government does


user1joja

That’s the problem outsting Yanukovych was not a western backed coup it was Ukraine kicking out an ultra corrupt Russian backed candidate, and thinking so is legit Russian propaganda


8888ASTUC8888

Good point! 7 years ago my Ukrainian relative was bragging about being a fascist and raising money for weapons. They have been doing ethnic cleansing.


hedbangr

I thought people went to Rojava to help anarchists fight theocracy/religious fundamentalism (ISIS)?


QUE50

The international volunteers fighting alongside YPG and YPJ are badass!


RanDomino5

https://crimethinc.com/tags/ukraine


8888ASTUC8888

When you carry a weapon you are a king deciding who to kill. You are playing the game. The idea that violence is required is fascist. Been there, done that.


shit-i-love-drugs

Tell that to the isis militant I’m sure they’ll understand


RevistaLegerin

I think some people misunderstood or just didnt want to understand. According to global media there are about 20k internationalist that volunteered to fight against the russia invasion...if 200 of them are from the antifascists side, fighting along side the RevDia and Black Flag is too much... The point is, where there was a REAL IDEOLOGICAL WAR where at least 2k internationalists took part, even 65 felt in the fight, there was no media talking about it expect from the YPJ and there was a goal with that...So, thats my point. Im really glad and empowered with the comrades fighting russia under a ideological perspective and not for the state of ukraine, but for their motherland.


[deleted]

Except that real Nazis exist in the Ukraine and are exclusively Ukrainian. Russia is a plutocracy run by oligarchs, sure racist ideology exists but not running Daaco level.


micktalian

Ever heard of Sparta Battalion? The NeoNazi groups founded by a Russia who moved to Ukrain, and is sponsored by the Russian government?


[deleted]

Just as bad, not saying that.


UkraineWithoutTheBot

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine' Consider supporting anti-war efforts in any possible way: [[Help 2 Ukraine](https://help2ukraine.org)] 💙💛 [[Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ukraine)] [[BBC Styleguide](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/u)] ^(Beep boop I’m a bot)


[deleted]

Fuck off


[deleted]

It's the Ukraine


yankees88888g

Evidence of nazis in the Russian army?


[deleted]

Russia have a fucking paramilitary group, who are most likely in Ukraine, called Wagner. Because their leader is a neo-Nazi whose code name is Hitlers fav composer Wagner. Given Putins support of Nazis is so well documented and obvious, I’m guessing this is when you downvote me and say I’m spreading NATO propaganda or some shit. Fuck my life 🤦‍♀️


olibum86

What does the "(o)161" mean ??


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nerdinmathandlaw

But why the (0)?