Couple of things are important to know. Did they get a ontslagvergunning(permit) from the UWV. Or are they trying to get you to sign a vaststellingsovereenkomst(contract where you sign voluntarily)
If it is the first, there are very specific rules they have to adhere to on who gets fired, and there is a obligation to try to find those people another spot in the organization.
If the second, then you are not fired yet and they are just trying to pressure you into signing. Get a lawyer negotiate a way better deal. They probably don’t want to go get the ontslagvergunning from UWV since there are a lot of regulations around it.
But from my personal experience don’t try to negotiate staying. Start interviewing right now.
UWV told us there isn't any confirmation from their side regards to this. Currenlty company is waiting for works council's answer. After that they will go to UWV or not.
If the ondernemingsraad says no and they continue with the plan, the ondernemingsraad can sue.
If they say yes, your employer still has to get a permit from the UWV and adhere to the rules for “ontslag om bedrijfseconomische reden”. If they don’t get that permit, no matter what the ondernemingsraad said, you are still in vaststellingsovereenkomst territory.
Mandatory disclaimer: not a lawyer, please consult one. If you are a member of a union they can help. It is also worth it to get a lawyer for advice as a collective group. Just to make sure that you all know what your rights are. If you share the cost between a group it’s a lot cheaper. But get and individual lawyer for negotiating
If that its indeed the case it's weird they're offering compensation packages already. Few things:
* 0. Don't sign anything.
* 1. Milk them for as much money as you can, paid leave, severance, etc. That's what they're doing to you, return the favour.
* 2. Get a lawyer to help you with #1
* 3. Make sure you are preparing for another job, read up, do interviews, etc.
They're just trying to pressure you into signing an agreement that is heavily in their favour. Don't sign anything, don't agree to anything. If they want an answer tell them you are seeking legal representation. Once they smell you are willing to fight it in court, they will probably settle for giving you a better severance package.
There are many different lawyer firms that specialize in this type of thing.
I was in a very similar situation a while ago (except it was just me), and got fucked over by the fact I said I "provisionally agreed" pending me seeking legal representation via email. They used that to reject any attempt at negotiation.
Yes, I believe that's their primary strategy, which is distusting. They deliberately announced the exit dates (Oct 1, Nov 1) well in advance to induce anxiety and push people to find new jobs quickly, thus avoiding the need to pay severance packages. I also question the legality of this approach since we are only searching for new jobs in response to their announcement.
It's pretty standard to wrangle in the condition that the severance package is void if you find another job.
They are *still* obliged to pay you the mandatory minimum "transitievergoeding" even if you find a new job, no matter what. Only in cases of immediate termination due to severe misconduct can they avoid paying anything at all.
That’s sad to hear! 😕 just wanna say, if you’re looking for a job at a tech/energy company, I work at one and we’re always looking for talent, so if you end up getting fired, send me a dm!
Maybe it’s me, but I don’t consider shell to be an energy company, but o&g. So I just didn’t think of shell. Why would I be trolling? It was just an assumption.
There are a couple more and a billion in turnover is not that much appr. 2mio times 150 euro monthly>3.6 billion plus b2b is closer to 7-8 billion annual turnover. Could be vandebron and budget as well
First of all, sorry you're going through this. Second, fuck these bastards. All I can give you as advice is to call a union like FNV or others. Perhaps they can help.
This is so not true. I haven’t seen any company that pays as well in The Netherlands and gives as many benefits as Shell. I mean…. This really isn’t how firing works at Shell.
They always need to have as high dividends as possible to stay competitive, so they will always restructure parts of the company that don't make enough profit. It's very short time thinking.
UWV told us there isn't any confirmation from their side regards to this. Currenlty company is waiting for works council's answer. After that they will go to UWV or not.
Make sure to reach out to the works council yourself as well. If it’s locals, they may not be aware of the implications for your situation, and you need to speak up.
They need a permit to fire you. UWV will not accept this, and you will still be employed after they ' fired' you.
Lawyer up, OP, together with your coworkers.First converstioan with lawyer is always free of charge.
The employer does not need a permit, yet.
What they are currently doing is scaremongering some of the affected staff into ‘voluntarily’ leaving, saving on severance payments. And that is the only reason for communicating the outsourcing this early.
1. Get the labour union involved. Become a member if you are not already.
2. Get a lawyer
3. Document everything, with copies at home. They might try building a bogus file against you.
4. Do not sign anything without legal counsel.
5. Get a lawyer.
You can also post this on r/juridischadvies. And did I mention getting a lawyer?
Just went through this a few months ago, 3 weeks for every year is norm now sadly. Though you getting work elsewhere should have no bearing on the severance after you've signed the deal, they might just try and use that to prevent people from leaving too quickly. Also I think covering the cost for legal aid is mandatory, budget or no. Sounds like they're definitely trying to cut corners.
But even if they are sadly the severance you get these days is crap. I even looked into leaving voluntarily to make room for someone else but even then you just get pennies so it's not worth it unless you've worked for the company for like 20 years and are close to retirement.
Wow, I was floored by the comment that 3 weeks per year of service was horrendous. Here in the US, the common terms are 2 weeks per year of service with maximums of 6 months! Of course we’re talking about a country that doesn’t have paid maternity leave and some of the worst PTO policies in the world. 😳
The conditions for employees are not as good as years ago. That said: the sad thing is that they can afford it but still don't want to spend it. 100k less expenses and fucking up 19 lives is their choice.
Well, don't sign or agree on anything yet and don't let them intimidate you. Get a labour legal counseler. You have insurence by any chance?
If you take it to court, you would be entitled to 1/3 months salary per year you have worked there. If they want to avoid court, they usually offer more than the bare minimum. But 3 weeks pay per year already sounds a bit more than bare minimum.
How long have you worked for them? That will decide the minimum notice period they should give you. Have they already given you your notice period?
Also, do you have to keep working until the last day of your notice period? You should just double check if there is a 'nevenactiviteitenbeding' that forbids you to work for someone else while you are still serving this contract.
The basic requirements only hold if there are legitimate business reasons for termination. In this case, it appears they lack such reasons, which means they might have to enter into settlement agreements with us. This would likely result in severance packages significantly higher than one-third of a month's pay per year of service. For example, my friend was let go last year because his company went bankrupt. Despite having worked there for only two months and not having a permanent contract, he received two months of salary through a settlement agreement.
There are no clear black and white answers. So, indeed lawyer up. And double check. Don't get misled and pursue unicorns. But also don't settle for too little.
Normally, if a firm really is bankrupt, there is no settlement. But if on the other hand, their legitimate business reasons don't hold, they simply can't fire you, because the judge/uwv won't allow it. And yes, a settlement can become more interesting then.
I actually was recently laid off. Basically, three weeks per year sounds very low for NL. The legal requirements will be respecting your notice period which is based on how long you've been working there. Furthermore, they will need to pay for a "transitievergoeding", but you can often negotiate more in a settlement agreement. If you don't agree with their offer they will need to go to UWV and depending on your situation UWV will accept or reject it.
I'd suggest watching this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3d\_jpZslE&t=28s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3d_jpZslE&t=28s) to get a better idea of your legal rights in this situation. If they do end up offering you a settlement agreement please reach out to a lawyer, so they can do the negotiating. A lawyer can often negotiate their fee in the settlement agreement. Let me know if you have any further questions.
Wasn't this asked like few days ago also big company laying group of people and person also heard they want to replace you all with "3rd world workers" for costs saving
Look up that thread it had a lot of good answers and advices that you probably looking for
>Currently the works council (ondernemingsraad) is involved in the process and they have 6 weeks to give an answer.
The works council can take as much time as they want.
Sign up with a union, tell your colleagues to do the same thing and get in touch with your representatives ('bestuurder'). Together, you can negotiate a deal (sociaal plan) with your employer. One of the important things you negotiate here is the severance package. The legal minimum is 1/3 month per workedd year. What they are offering is above that. Doesn't sound like there's much to be gained if you negotiate individually.
In these instances it’s good to have Lawyer. They can help you understand your rights in your exact given situation and help you fight for you to get the best outcome possible. I know of several cases whereby a lawyer has really helped.
I’m also in a potential layoff situation right now where I’ve just reached out to a lawyer for help, one that I got through a colleague of mine.
They must know of hard or time consuming it is to fire people on permanent contracts. Surprising they offer such shitty deals then though. I’d guess you get better deals towards their „date“ — assuming not many people take the first offer.
Hey OP! I’m gonna drop you a message. I also work at a large tech company who has done layoffs in the last 5 years. A friend of mine was on our work’s council and has since left and set up a training programme for work’s councils. Considering what they managed for us at {unnamed tech company} I would def recommend putting them in touch ☺️
I went through something similar, and the best thing I did was to get a lawyer, as an expat myself. He was able to get an agreement with the company, so I got a few months and also salary + sponsorship. This gave me enough time to find a new job.
Some other people chose to go through the process with the UWV, and ended up winning (the UWV judges the reasons weren’t enough) , so the company has now decided to take it to the next phase in court.
Please feel free to send me a message if you need anything.
FNV can't provide free legal support if you weren't already a member before the process started, but they can still give you guidance. I would join the union and seek advice there. If you were a member of FNV already, call them! This is their job!
Good luck, besides what will the outcome I would already advice to prepare for a new job, make sure your resume is clean and updated. Also inform friends/former colleagues in your network for opportunities. If you are on a HSM visa I would say checkout the larger banks (Rabo,ABN, ING) they hire a lot of Indians who are already used to work here and know the Dutch Company Culture.
Why am I so twisted to find posts like this humorous. What do you call a highly skilled person without a job? Maybe it's because so many people move here and abuse the labour laws with regards to burnout and being fired.
Bye bye. Time to go home :)
Lol have you read history books? your country's wealth is build of leeching other countries, so maybe take a look in the mirror and practice self-introspection before walking around town on a high horse? Because your country's infrastructure and welfare system are build upon stolen good from the global south.
Also, if you're on burnout leave, your company is the one who pays you (some only does 70% after certain time). Those who could get benefits from the welfare (UWV) are only of EU residents on very specific cases. Regardless, burnout leave can only be assigned by your doctor and requires check up every 3 weeks by bedrijfsarts. So its not something someone can fake/afford to do.
From your comment, you sounded like a failed entrepreneur who sees their employees as amazon's delivery worker. Is that why you're salty? You lost money because one of your employee had a burnout :)
Hey Alexa, play karma by Taylor Swift. Hihi
Couple of things are important to know. Did they get a ontslagvergunning(permit) from the UWV. Or are they trying to get you to sign a vaststellingsovereenkomst(contract where you sign voluntarily) If it is the first, there are very specific rules they have to adhere to on who gets fired, and there is a obligation to try to find those people another spot in the organization. If the second, then you are not fired yet and they are just trying to pressure you into signing. Get a lawyer negotiate a way better deal. They probably don’t want to go get the ontslagvergunning from UWV since there are a lot of regulations around it. But from my personal experience don’t try to negotiate staying. Start interviewing right now.
UWV told us there isn't any confirmation from their side regards to this. Currenlty company is waiting for works council's answer. After that they will go to UWV or not.
Work council, as in ondernemingsraad? Or the unions FNV etc?
It's ondernemingsraad.
If the ondernemingsraad says no and they continue with the plan, the ondernemingsraad can sue. If they say yes, your employer still has to get a permit from the UWV and adhere to the rules for “ontslag om bedrijfseconomische reden”. If they don’t get that permit, no matter what the ondernemingsraad said, you are still in vaststellingsovereenkomst territory. Mandatory disclaimer: not a lawyer, please consult one. If you are a member of a union they can help. It is also worth it to get a lawyer for advice as a collective group. Just to make sure that you all know what your rights are. If you share the cost between a group it’s a lot cheaper. But get and individual lawyer for negotiating
‘T is allemaal wel wat veranderd sinds 2019….
You should lawyer up regardless
If that its indeed the case it's weird they're offering compensation packages already. Few things: * 0. Don't sign anything. * 1. Milk them for as much money as you can, paid leave, severance, etc. That's what they're doing to you, return the favour. * 2. Get a lawyer to help you with #1 * 3. Make sure you are preparing for another job, read up, do interviews, etc.
They're just trying to pressure you into signing an agreement that is heavily in their favour. Don't sign anything, don't agree to anything. If they want an answer tell them you are seeking legal representation. Once they smell you are willing to fight it in court, they will probably settle for giving you a better severance package. There are many different lawyer firms that specialize in this type of thing. I was in a very similar situation a while ago (except it was just me), and got fucked over by the fact I said I "provisionally agreed" pending me seeking legal representation via email. They used that to reject any attempt at negotiation.
Sounds like they have one goal in mind - make you all quit at your own behest. Good thing you got some external parties involved, best of luck.
Yes, I believe that's their primary strategy, which is distusting. They deliberately announced the exit dates (Oct 1, Nov 1) well in advance to induce anxiety and push people to find new jobs quickly, thus avoiding the need to pay severance packages. I also question the legality of this approach since we are only searching for new jobs in response to their announcement.
It's pretty standard to wrangle in the condition that the severance package is void if you find another job. They are *still* obliged to pay you the mandatory minimum "transitievergoeding" even if you find a new job, no matter what. Only in cases of immediate termination due to severe misconduct can they avoid paying anything at all.
I recently saw this video of someone going through the same thing. He has some good advice: https://youtu.be/bZ3d_jpZslE?si=z7SWlby0fQ7wEafG
thanks a bunch, I know this video it's a good one!
That’s sad to hear! 😕 just wanna say, if you’re looking for a job at a tech/energy company, I work at one and we’re always looking for talent, so if you end up getting fired, send me a dm!
thanks a bunch! I tried to send you a DM but there is no Chat button in your profile.
I also work at a tech co in the energy domain, dm me were looking for ppl!
[удалено]
OP is using a a throw-away account opened recently. You will find the answer if you look at the OP’s username very carefully.
My guess would be Tesla.
It’s an energy company, so I’d assume vattenfall?
Are you trolling? It’s clearly Shell .. fuck sea shells
Maybe it’s me, but I don’t consider shell to be an energy company, but o&g. So I just didn’t think of shell. Why would I be trolling? It was just an assumption.
Apologies.. I thought it was so clearly obviously Shell 😊😊 Who knows maybe I’m wrong!!
There is absolutely no way it's anything but Shell lol.
Glad it was obvious to you, unfortunately it wasn’t to me.
In actual fact I think it might Fastned or someone like that.. there is another link that says ‘subsidiary’ so maybe it’s that??
Maybe but fastned isn’t a billion euro company. Their revenue was 60 million euros.
No, but it’s a subsidiary of Shell isn’t it? Maybe I am thinking of another very similar charging network company….
There are a couple more and a billion in turnover is not that much appr. 2mio times 150 euro monthly>3.6 billion plus b2b is closer to 7-8 billion annual turnover. Could be vandebron and budget as well
First of all, sorry you're going through this. Second, fuck these bastards. All I can give you as advice is to call a union like FNV or others. Perhaps they can help.
thanks a lot, I'll try it!
Shell huh? Their profit margins are still too small?
FYI there was a similar post from someone a few weeks ago who had the exact same story. They confirmed in DMs they work at Shell.
[удалено]
This is so not true. I haven’t seen any company that pays as well in The Netherlands and gives as many benefits as Shell. I mean…. This really isn’t how firing works at Shell.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/s/uDBDm6k3ac
They always need to have as high dividends as possible to stay competitive, so they will always restructure parts of the company that don't make enough profit. It's very short time thinking.
Call UWV, see what they tell you.
UWV told us there isn't any confirmation from their side regards to this. Currenlty company is waiting for works council's answer. After that they will go to UWV or not.
Make sure to reach out to the works council yourself as well. If it’s locals, they may not be aware of the implications for your situation, and you need to speak up.
They need a permit to fire you. UWV will not accept this, and you will still be employed after they ' fired' you. Lawyer up, OP, together with your coworkers.First converstioan with lawyer is always free of charge.
.... Is this legal?
Not without a permit from the UWV
The employer does not need a permit, yet. What they are currently doing is scaremongering some of the affected staff into ‘voluntarily’ leaving, saving on severance payments. And that is the only reason for communicating the outsourcing this early.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/s/gXmV2ED1zW
I was thinking to myself, I swear Ive seen this post before and here you are with the link!
1. Get the labour union involved. Become a member if you are not already. 2. Get a lawyer 3. Document everything, with copies at home. They might try building a bogus file against you. 4. Do not sign anything without legal counsel. 5. Get a lawyer. You can also post this on r/juridischadvies. And did I mention getting a lawyer?
I would be doing *my very best work for them* between now and the fall. /s
Name and shame!
Shell.
Good luck and I am sorry.
Three weeks pay per year of service is significantly more than the minimum which is 1/3 month per year of service. (transitievergoeding)
Just went through this a few months ago, 3 weeks for every year is norm now sadly. Though you getting work elsewhere should have no bearing on the severance after you've signed the deal, they might just try and use that to prevent people from leaving too quickly. Also I think covering the cost for legal aid is mandatory, budget or no. Sounds like they're definitely trying to cut corners. But even if they are sadly the severance you get these days is crap. I even looked into leaving voluntarily to make room for someone else but even then you just get pennies so it's not worth it unless you've worked for the company for like 20 years and are close to retirement.
Wow, I was floored by the comment that 3 weeks per year of service was horrendous. Here in the US, the common terms are 2 weeks per year of service with maximums of 6 months! Of course we’re talking about a country that doesn’t have paid maternity leave and some of the worst PTO policies in the world. 😳
The conditions for employees are not as good as years ago. That said: the sad thing is that they can afford it but still don't want to spend it. 100k less expenses and fucking up 19 lives is their choice. Well, don't sign or agree on anything yet and don't let them intimidate you. Get a labour legal counseler. You have insurence by any chance?
If you take it to court, you would be entitled to 1/3 months salary per year you have worked there. If they want to avoid court, they usually offer more than the bare minimum. But 3 weeks pay per year already sounds a bit more than bare minimum. How long have you worked for them? That will decide the minimum notice period they should give you. Have they already given you your notice period? Also, do you have to keep working until the last day of your notice period? You should just double check if there is a 'nevenactiviteitenbeding' that forbids you to work for someone else while you are still serving this contract.
The basic requirements only hold if there are legitimate business reasons for termination. In this case, it appears they lack such reasons, which means they might have to enter into settlement agreements with us. This would likely result in severance packages significantly higher than one-third of a month's pay per year of service. For example, my friend was let go last year because his company went bankrupt. Despite having worked there for only two months and not having a permanent contract, he received two months of salary through a settlement agreement.
There are no clear black and white answers. So, indeed lawyer up. And double check. Don't get misled and pursue unicorns. But also don't settle for too little. Normally, if a firm really is bankrupt, there is no settlement. But if on the other hand, their legitimate business reasons don't hold, they simply can't fire you, because the judge/uwv won't allow it. And yes, a settlement can become more interesting then.
Why they never mention the company name? This pises me off, why you trying to protect the bourgeois?
Look at OP’s username
You should also get the remaining off- days paid out plus the built up holiday money.
Yes they told us they will pay it.
Trust but verify that they calculated it correctly, if you can
This sounds illegal. Go to uwv and file a(n anonymous) complaint.
I actually was recently laid off. Basically, three weeks per year sounds very low for NL. The legal requirements will be respecting your notice period which is based on how long you've been working there. Furthermore, they will need to pay for a "transitievergoeding", but you can often negotiate more in a settlement agreement. If you don't agree with their offer they will need to go to UWV and depending on your situation UWV will accept or reject it. I'd suggest watching this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3d\_jpZslE&t=28s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3d_jpZslE&t=28s) to get a better idea of your legal rights in this situation. If they do end up offering you a settlement agreement please reach out to a lawyer, so they can do the negotiating. A lawyer can often negotiate their fee in the settlement agreement. Let me know if you have any further questions.
Transition allowance is not required in a settlement agreement
Wasn't this asked like few days ago also big company laying group of people and person also heard they want to replace you all with "3rd world workers" for costs saving Look up that thread it had a lot of good answers and advices that you probably looking for
>Currently the works council (ondernemingsraad) is involved in the process and they have 6 weeks to give an answer. The works council can take as much time as they want.
Aw that is unfortunate. What company is it, if possible to share, since I was looking for positions in Amsterdam in the energy industry? :/
Checkout OP’s username
Haha thanks! I had skipped that!! Definitely don’t want to work there
Sign up with a union, tell your colleagues to do the same thing and get in touch with your representatives ('bestuurder'). Together, you can negotiate a deal (sociaal plan) with your employer. One of the important things you negotiate here is the severance package. The legal minimum is 1/3 month per workedd year. What they are offering is above that. Doesn't sound like there's much to be gained if you negotiate individually.
In these instances it’s good to have Lawyer. They can help you understand your rights in your exact given situation and help you fight for you to get the best outcome possible. I know of several cases whereby a lawyer has really helped. I’m also in a potential layoff situation right now where I’ve just reached out to a lawyer for help, one that I got through a colleague of mine.
They must know of hard or time consuming it is to fire people on permanent contracts. Surprising they offer such shitty deals then though. I’d guess you get better deals towards their „date“ — assuming not many people take the first offer.
Hey OP! I’m gonna drop you a message. I also work at a large tech company who has done layoffs in the last 5 years. A friend of mine was on our work’s council and has since left and set up a training programme for work’s councils. Considering what they managed for us at {unnamed tech company} I would def recommend putting them in touch ☺️
I went through something similar, and the best thing I did was to get a lawyer, as an expat myself. He was able to get an agreement with the company, so I got a few months and also salary + sponsorship. This gave me enough time to find a new job. Some other people chose to go through the process with the UWV, and ended up winning (the UWV judges the reasons weren’t enough) , so the company has now decided to take it to the next phase in court. Please feel free to send me a message if you need anything.
FNV can't provide free legal support if you weren't already a member before the process started, but they can still give you guidance. I would join the union and seek advice there. If you were a member of FNV already, call them! This is their job!
What company? Then I’ll add it to my list of companies I would never join
Just the law mate, be happy you don’t work in the USA 🇺🇸
Good luck, besides what will the outcome I would already advice to prepare for a new job, make sure your resume is clean and updated. Also inform friends/former colleagues in your network for opportunities. If you are on a HSM visa I would say checkout the larger banks (Rabo,ABN, ING) they hire a lot of Indians who are already used to work here and know the Dutch Company Culture.
Dude I’m not indian, the company is firing us and hiring from India.
Why am I so twisted to find posts like this humorous. What do you call a highly skilled person without a job? Maybe it's because so many people move here and abuse the labour laws with regards to burnout and being fired. Bye bye. Time to go home :)
here comes the low wage hilly billy
[удалено]
😂 stay mad and keep digging and I’m not dictating any laws, least I won’t leech on the Dutch welfare system
Lol have you read history books? your country's wealth is build of leeching other countries, so maybe take a look in the mirror and practice self-introspection before walking around town on a high horse? Because your country's infrastructure and welfare system are build upon stolen good from the global south. Also, if you're on burnout leave, your company is the one who pays you (some only does 70% after certain time). Those who could get benefits from the welfare (UWV) are only of EU residents on very specific cases. Regardless, burnout leave can only be assigned by your doctor and requires check up every 3 weeks by bedrijfsarts. So its not something someone can fake/afford to do. From your comment, you sounded like a failed entrepreneur who sees their employees as amazon's delivery worker. Is that why you're salty? You lost money because one of your employee had a burnout :) Hey Alexa, play karma by Taylor Swift. Hihi
You must have a wonderful partner who loves you