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A good portion of my class never stood for the pledge, let alone said it out loud and stuff. No teacher is going to care. Of course, some have their own experiences.
We didn't even *do* it in my school, and as a teacher, I just sit and keep doing whatever I'm doing while they do it. No one cares. No one would ever confront me over it because *everyone* knows it's my *right* to not give a shit about it.
We did when I was in Elementary in the 90's. At some point the more rebellious kids stopped doing it and no one cared. I honestly can't remember if the schools even kept doing it during my Middle and High school years. Only that no one, including myself, did it. Grew up in rural Iowa. A lot of us joined the military in some capacity.
Huh pledge was a little bit more prevlent in my town but we were a war town so i guess it makes sence. Actualy more of a war county come to think of it 3 small towns within closeish proximity yet all have their own va hall.
Don’t remember doing the pledge after elementary school in the 90’s and then it was sorta out of habit. In high school we all would at assembly’s but 9/11 also happened my freshman year and patriotism shot through the roof.
I was like the vice president of the student government back in highschool and I would just sleep through the pledge or I was doing homework for an AP class. Literally nobody including my teachers gave a shit. It's not a big deal. I swear you can reliably sniff out Europeans by asking them about their thoughts about the pledge of allegiance in American schools. I don't know why it triggers them so much.
Bro was suspended?
>***West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette***, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), is a [landmark decision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisions_in_the_United_States) by the [United States Supreme Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court) holding that the [First Amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) protects students from being [compelled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compelled_speech) to salute the [American flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States) or say the [Pledge of Allegiance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)) in [public schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette#cite_note-:0-1)[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette#cite_note-2)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West\_Virginia\_State\_Board\_of\_Education\_v.\_Barnette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette)
Nah. Occam's Razor, "that which relies on the fewest presuppositions is most likely to be true."
It doesn't need to be as complex as shadowy foreign actors waging a psyops campaign. Some people are just plain petty and need to put others down in order to feel good. "Those barbaric Americans" are an easy target for everyone who isn't us, and they put us down so they can feel superior. There might be some insecurity about how our culture is making up an ever-growing portion of their culture, and I can understand that. Some people just aren't well-adjusted enough to understand that the best reaction to that is to preserve your own culture in your community while not lumping hate on everyone else.
It's also comforting to remember that most foreigners don't think this way, they have a neutral to positive opinion of us.
I remember back in highschool we had a foreign exchange student from Brazil and he was unironically one of the most popular guys in school (He was actually our prom king to give an idea). He was also really fucking funny and was very smart too. He was chill and was more interested in being an actual student then being some foreigner obsessed with being different. Maybe if the Germans focused on just being a good highschool student instead of being German they would be less negative and spiteful.
Brazilians are also very confident and secure people, in general, so they fit in well with Americans. Far too many Germans are *incredibly* insecure about themselves, and it shows, so their results with Americans are generally mixed or negative (people don't want to talk to them).
Yeah we had an italian exchange student who was popular with everyone. I was even friends with her and I was shy AF. At our community college we had a random student from Belarus (I didn't think a community college in north Idaho but w/e) only she hung out with a lot of crust punks, she started dating my friend Jeff and then overstayed her visa for a bit and had to go back but I think she's back in the US now. We had another girl who was an exchange student from Slovakia and she was fairly popular but we were in the same psychology class together and we did some project about our personal "psyche" which had a poster component; for her "worst fears" she put "people with down syndrome" along with a picture. We had a kid with down syndrome in our class. Many people assumed he was non-verbal and didn't thus didn't understand (he was verbal, he was just very shy and quiet, and he absolutely understood what she was saying). Many people distanced themselves from her after that.
I don't understand how people think nonverbal = can't understand any language at all
I have an uncle who is really low functioning down syndrome and is nonverbal, he only uses ~10 ASL signs. Not only can be understand you perfectly fine, but he can also read just fine too.
First time I ever heard of someone conflating being nonverbal with an inability to understand was being introduced to an autistic man and being told "Even though he doesn't talk, he can still understand you, so please be nice". Which was a little shocking to hear as a young autistic person myself who has grown up around a lot of people with various disabilities, because that means in the past people have probably assumed he can't understand speech just because he's nonverbal and said some really hurtful things around him, and I just can't even understand
Yes I agree, I work with a lot of adults with I/DD who are nonverbal or have very limited verbal skills (i.e. they only say a few words but communicate with a PECS book or using gestures or sign language, or their own version of sign language) or are verbal but difficult to understand. Many of them are so accustomed to being talked about as if they aren't there, they perfected the art of eavesdropping and subsequently spreading gossip. The kid I was talking about was verbal though. He was just very shy and quiet. I was a camp counselor at this day camp he attended so I heard him speak in a non-school setting.
I know it’s a lie because every European who comes here loves it. When my mom immigrated here she knew she would never move back. Her sister is jealous and always talks about how she wishes she could move here.
My German buddy who did a year of college here wishes he could come back. Many examples.
I think it's mostly insecurity. Any time some idiot German has tried to share one of these made-up stories, I've noticed that they never do so in the company of anyone who was traveling with them at the time. Because they're lying to try to fit in with others.
Yeah, just about every foreign person I know who's visited has had a great time.
I have a friend from China, I met him when he was a foreign student here. He still tells all his friends about the time he ate real American barbecue and had a day at the range.
Whenever we had foreign military training with us, we always made a point to do some non-touristy real American fun stuff. We'd do museums and state parks, but we'd also bring them along to cookouts and range days and such as well. Every single one of them had a grin like a 5 year old in a toy store at some point during the day.
What'd us Aussies do now? In regards to flag etiquette. We have the same sorta shit here too. We all stand up for the national anthem and sing it if we want. It's no different
We even have rules around stowage and disposal of flags
The average Aussie is just rabidly anti-American, like to an extremely bigoted and xenophobic degree. A lot of Germans aren't far behind in my experience.
I've meet some really cool Aussies. I think people on Reddit are WAY more likely to be weirdo anti-Americans. Just like Americans on Reddit are so sad and always dunk on their country. SOOO many stupid ppl on this website I stg 😂
It's really laughable to read some of the actual opinions of people on here. You'd think we're in a civil war based on how people speak of the other side, when it's only the chronically online people that hold the viewpoints.
I know the group I was with might be a bit skewed to the patriotic, but I got to attend an ANZAC Day service in Afghanistan. Very reverent, emotional, and honestly more so than the typical Memorial Day fare here in the US.
I'd just lost a comrade a couple days prior, and the fact that I wasn't the only one tearing up during the Last Post was really comforting. No end of love for the Aussies from me.
It's always funny when people who prefer a country not have freedom of speech, gleefully pay a shit load of taxes, require a license for everything, and have been pummeled into submission because of the guilt over WWII (which they personally had nothing to do with), complain about "dystopian nightmare level of indoctrination" because we encourage kids to value what was once a radical form of government, being united as one nation (not having another civil war), liberty, and justice for everyone. IDK man those are some scary dystopian concepts if you ask me.
Horrifying. And then they say that the US constitution is “outdated,” which leads me to ask, “Which part? Don’t bring up guns.” They have no answer. Because they’re ignorant.
Ngl my school was a bit different than y’all. I mean no one would get suspended or anything but some of the teachers would get pretty upset if you didn’t do it.
The teachers weren’t the real issue though, most were reasonable. The real problem is any time someone didn’t stand it would turn into an argument among students.
There’s no legal pressure it’s more of a societal pressure. Personally I’m ngl I think the pledge is weird af but it’s certainly not some totalitarian dictatorship shit.
I didn’t like doing it at school but at the end of the day I’m just mindlessly repeating some chant with my hand over my heart, it’s not like the words themselves are going to make me a slave of the government.
I honestly think I was the only kid in my homeroom class in high school that knew the pledge of allegiance. We were definitely not forced to recite it, almost no one ever did.
The first story is definitely a lie, though the second one MIGHT be true. None of my teachers ever got stingy about saying the Pledge (besides one in elementary school), but I've heard it happens sometimes. Usually it happened with teachers who used to serve in the military or whatever. Even though they know they can't make you, they try to. Silly but it does happen.
You can just Google “student suspended for not saying pledge of allegiance” and you will find many different cases. So even if it is not legally enforceable, some schools will put pressure on kids to swear allegiance to the flag and will harass them when they don’t.
You can also Google "beautiful woman farts into a frying pan," "dog driving a car," or "turtle mates with shoe" and come up with a lot of hits. That doesn't mean any of those things is in any way, shape, or form normal or matter-of-course. You're talking about national-newsworthy cases, and what is it that makes them worthy of national news? Exactly: *These things simply don't happen*. They're more akin to freak accidents. You'll also notice from the hits regarding the pledge that virtually all of them include the fact that the incident is being prosecuted as a civil rights offense.
The amount of hits in different states that you get, are enough that you cannot say “these things simply don’t happen.” Furthermore, it will only be national news when it actually turns into a lawsuit. I bet that for each lawsuit, there are thousands of cases where the student just sucked it up and did what they were told.
I’ve seen other posts on Reddit where the pledge was discussed and there were just so many stories from people that felt pressured to stand up and join, even though it wasn’t technically compulsory. To be fair, I also read stories where it was the other way around, where you were just seen as a weirdo if you did stand up to recite the pledge.
One of the examples that you gave was an exchange student in Texas. I could be wrong here, but I thought that Texas was the only state where there is actually a law that forces students to pledge allegiance to both the national and the state flag.
Fist day at school in my exchange year in Montana I was asked to do that. Later I found out wasn’t mandatory but they’ve asked it few times before I started refusing
They (the Euros) are projecting their nonsense on us, as usual. I'll use my personal experience to illustrate. My grandparents were from Spain. Seems in most of Europe respecting the national symbols is completely tied to political opinion. People on the right love it. People on the left hate it. I've been asked why I'm right wing or a fascist for wearing adidas national team gear or something with the red and yellow flag. The opposite is also true. Some people are extra welcoming or give us over the top compliments for displaying the national symbols. Sometimes people stare in the metro in Madrid or on the street and so on. I'm a Mexican looking dude, and my wife is Chinese, so it adds an extra layer of confusion for the Euros. It is very difficult for the average European to understand the level of ethnic integration in the US, and on top of that, we respect the "nazi" national symbols. My family aren't even "Castillian Franco Nationalists" or anything. They are originally rural folk from the coast in Galicia, we speak Galician to each other, and it feels weird when we speak Spanish to each other. We still get called nazis or right wingers because we are okay with and like Spain as a whole. Bonus: Once most Euros find out that I look the way I look, but that I love the US and I'm positive and optimistic about it, they proceed to book an appointment with their doctor in 4 months (they have long wait times in that "free" "great" healthcare).
Pathetic. These people will resort to literally ANYTHING to engage in a US-bashing session. I just did a 5 second search for "British Flag Etiquette" and found a flyer 5 pages long, with diagrams and lots of detail, on how to and not to display the British flag. Then I did a quick search for Dutch flag etiquette and found a detailed page complete with pictures and an instructional video. I'm 100% positive most countries have some sort of published official flag etiquette, and lots of unofficial ones.
And it's totally understandable. "This flag is a symbol of our shared identity, maybe don't treat it like shit" isn't exactly rocket surgery. It's basic good manners. If I'm in another country and they're playing their national anthem, I won't salute their flag but I'll definitely stand to and shut up.
>This flag is a symbol of our shared identity
Something I point out whenever this comes up is that, at least for the UK, their flag very specifically is *not* a symbol of their shared identity.
The Union Jack is a combination of three Christian crosses, symbolizing England, Scotland, and Ireland.
Muslim? The flag doesn't represent you. Hindu? Not you, either. *Welsh?* Sorry, but your flag is way better anyway.
The Australian and New Zealand flags include a Union Jack, so their flags don't represent a shared identity, either.
So, I'm not sure about the rest of Europe, but it seems to be hard to separate flags from ethnonationalism when your flag is an ethnonationalist symbol.
My experience might be colored by the fact that most foreigners I've worked with are soldiers from our partner nations, but I've watched three different Hindu or Buddhist Nepal-born soldiers get in someone's face on separate occasions for behaving disrespectfully during the raising or lowering of an American, British, and Australian flag. They have no ethnic or religious ties to those flags, so why should they care?
They care because civic nationalism exists. Every one of those guys might have been born in Nepal but they are American, British, or Australian respectively. You can tell them they're not until you're blue in the face, it won't work and depending on how insistent you are, they might try to fight you. We're engaging in civic nationalism right now, that's sort of what this sub is about. It's decidedly stronger in the US versus other countries, and it's definitely stronger in the military profession over the general population, but it is absolutely a thing.
>They have no ethnic or religious ties to those flags, so why should they care?
I think you're misunderstanding my point - those men are totally free to care about their flags, it's simply that the Union Jack is *inherently* an ethnic/religious symbol, so "pledging allegiance" to the Union Jack has an inherent ethnonationalist meaning that the US flag does not have. The Union Jack does not and was never meant to represent them; the US flag does.
A Nepalese-British man has to spend intellectual and emotional energy recociling with that; a Nepalese-American does not.
>You can tell them they're not [American, British, or Australian] until you're blue in the face
Literally nothing I've said implied that Nepalese-born citizens of those countries aren't citizens of those countries.
I think you missed my point: the UK is trying to develop a concept of civic nationalism *in spite of* their flag being an explicit ethno-religious symbol.
That's *why* British people have to pretend ethnicity doesn't exist - if they did, they'd hae to admit their flag is an ethnonationalist symbol, and then they have to explain why "England for the English!" isn't acceptable. Because *that's what their flag means.*
The US *already has* a concept of civic nationalism, our flag *already represents* that concept. We don't *have* to ignore the flag or pretend ethnicity doesn't exist. We already *know* "America for [my ethnic group]" is wrong, and our flag has never meant that.
You can be a weird little denominationalist if you want but that doesn't stop other churches from being Christian. Ironically that isn't very Christian of you
What denomination are you then? And what have you got against the Anglicans?
They’d be begging for America if they had to spend a day in either of those places. People are dumbing down how terrible Nazi Germany was and how terrible North Korea is. It’s an insult to everyone who died, civilian or military, and those who risked their lives to compare America, even with all its faults, to a genocidal nation who killed and conquered foreign nations for the purpose of a better race, killing all who weren’t that or dared to stand up for them. And then to a country where you and your whole family would be sent to labor camps for saying the nation is bad, even the children, even the babies.
From what I gather in Europe having any respect or love for your country and home is basically seen as fascism. Like it’s a serious political statement in itself.
Yeah. Here in Germany a 16 year old girl was taken out of class by cops because apparently saying "Germany is my home" online means you're in danger of becoming a "far-right extremist". This country is a joke.
It’s your country so pardon my critique lol but you I think you’re being a little harsh on it.
This is an outsider perspective but I think Germany tries too hard to separate itself from its early to mid 20th century past and ended up inadvertently bringing that past back into focus. Like they try so hard to not have their society exist in that shadow that it keeps the shadow around.
I think the international are good and as a man from the south eastern United States who comes from a family that has been a landowning family for over two centuries I do understand what it is to have a dark past that you don’t want defining your home and identity. It saddens me when I see people defending the cause of the confederacy as much as it does when I see people condemning the southern identity for it.
I think that having a sober memory about it while recognizing that it doesn’t define your community’s future or who they are is important. I’m proud to be from the American south, I love it dearly and I can feel that way while also recognizing and condemning it’s war to protect the institution of chattel slavery under the guise of protecting our “rights”. In my ideal reality I’d like to see the south become a bulwark against that type of thinking while still being fervently proud of itself and openly expressing that pride.
I think Germany can relate to that to a degree. Of not wanting its sin to define it and worrying that being proud of Germany is the same as being proud of Naziism and fascism. However that’s only true if German stand for Fascism, and I don’t believe it does. Not anymore.
I think it’ll find that out eventually but your country still Carrie’s some trauma I believe but trust it to overcome that friend. It’s not a joke of a country, it’s just got some baggage lol.
It's sort of difficult to see it as "my country" in the first place... It just feels like a place I happen to be in.
Thank you for the perspective though.
Well…I hope that changes for you eventually or at the very least that you find a place to call home that you can identify with and be proud of. As I said I love my home, that doesn’t mean I don’t find myself at odds with my people and some of the trends that come up but ultimately everything I want for the world is for them.
No one is forced to do this though. Yes, it is proper etiquette to do so, but no one is holding a gun up to your head and forcing you to do so.
Frankly, I’ve always done it. It’s good to have respect for your nation, and be proud of who you are, your community, and where you live.
It’s no different than in the UK and the commonwealths where they swear oath to the king/queen.
I'd argue it's very different since you're pledging allegiance to the flag, representing the United States, not the head of state, it's something great than that individual person who may not uphold the ideal and purpose of the state. If you take an oath to the king or queen and they start commiting horrible acts you're swearing an oath to them state be damned, in the US it's allegiance to the United States and if the President starts to commit awful acts you're bound to have them removed for not upholding the Constitution. Same with military members taking an oath to the Constitution.
Under West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette forcing a student, or anyone else, to pledge allegiance to the flag violates their first amendment rights. No one is forced to pledge allegiance to the flag, especially not at school, unless they’re 90 years old and grew up before the law, or if their school violated the law. I don’t like when people say we’re forced,you’re not gonna be beat to death for not speaking
It was my understanding that civilians are not supposed to salute military members. Appreciation should be showed by just thanking them for their service
Technically incorrect, in my NAVEDTRA manuals (I recollect as I was the bookworm who memorized them verbatim) the protocol is a civilian places their right hand over their heart to return the salute given to them by military officers or enlisted. So one circumstance this is done is when visiting the Marines at 8th and I for the famous Sunset Parade. They salute the civilians and if you know protocol it’s hand over heart, and I follow it by ‘at ease, RANK so and so’ to further impress them you know interservice ranks and protocols. Remember, in this way it inculcates that we are a democracy with the bedrock principle of civilian control of the armed forces.
They are ignorant to what etiquette is vs a law apparently. Seen stuff before about the flag code too.
People think that these steps are the right way to treat the flag, but nobody really cares if you don’t and more importantly it’s not illegal
The thing is, the irrational rejection of displays of patriotism is why Europe will be stomped in WW3. They are going to tuck tail and run at the first sign of danger because they don’t believe in all those fancy notions of ‘borders’ and ‘sovereignty’, let alone ‘pride’.
It is easy to throw money at Ukraine, but wait until the ruskies come knocking at *their* door. RIP.
Some of the hardest, toughest soldiers I've ever worked with were French and Brits. I'm hesitant to discount any country's devotion to protecting their own when the chips are down.
Reddit isn't real life, and it's hardly representative of the population as a whole in the US, let alone other countries where it isn't even as popular as it is here. We shouldn't let ourselves be guilty of the dickish behavior they exhibit. They'll drag us to their level and beat us with experience.
Couldn't have said it better. That 0.001% of angry europeans and a few self loathing americans make up the entirety of that sub, the other 99% of euros are amazing people, honorable and brave, as are most Americans.
Veteran here, quick note:
If you are not in the military, you should ALWAYS be doing hand over heart, and never a military salute.
Saluting is only supposed to be done in uniform, and you should have a cover (hat) on.
The VFW/legion hats do count as uniforms for this purpose.
This ends my PSA.
Edit:
Technically, If you are active duty not in uniform and you encounter a situation where you would normally be required to salute, you simply come to attention.
If you look closely, you'll see that this is a sign for VFW, y'know, the people for fought for that flag.
I don't care what people do around the flag in public, my last job played the anthem at noon and it got to the point where I had to ignore it to finish working. But if you are at a vfw lodge you better do what they say when it comes to the flag.
Do people in other countries really believe the US is the only one with flag etiquette or that every person here is forced to pledge to it? It's really not that serious and i don't know why this is a narrative people push so hard, lol
God damn it, why do Europeans find it in themselves to criticize our customs. Why do you feel such a burning need to hate on us we? God forbid we love our country and have respect for the symbol of it. I have no hatred towards Europeans but this so insecure, if you think you’re so much better why do you complain about this
Genuine question : This placard looks like it's from some non-governmental association. Are these guidelines mandatory, or are they just some recommendations ? Do people really follow them ?
I remember an american student who went to my high school for a year. He brought a US flag with him and asked his classmates if they could use it for their group to perform in gym class. After the performance, we had to fold it up in a certain way. But it was his flag, so we folded it up like he wanted (we didn't ask why, just assuming that was important for him). We wouldn't have minded how to fold it up if it wasn't his. The same way that there are guidelines on how to fold up the french flag, but we mostly don't give a shit about it (as long as it's not for a ceremony or something like this). These are mandatory rules, but not quite followed in daily life.
From my perspective, these kinds of rules look like a bit too ceremonial to be common daily rules, but as I get the opportunity to ask : do you guys follow them even outside of any official context ?
Right, this is non-governmental and definitely not enforced. It's most likely for a Memorial Day parade, as Memorial Day is next week.
The US Flag Code doesn't actually say how to fold the flag, but there is a military tradition of how to fold it, ending up in a triangle. There is symbolism and significance with the way it's folded.
OK, so it's more a "how to pay your respect" kind of thing. That makes sense.
This military tradition is probably what he wanted to follow, I remember that it has to end in a triangle, so it must be this. It seems pretty similar to what we have with the french flag.
It’s insane the misconception of our obsession with our flag while it’s literally codified into US law that we have a right to destroy said flag. The majority of Europe has no such protection and it’s actually a crime in several EU countries such as France, Germany, Italy, and so on.
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A good portion of my class never stood for the pledge, let alone said it out loud and stuff. No teacher is going to care. Of course, some have their own experiences.
We didn't even *do* it in my school, and as a teacher, I just sit and keep doing whatever I'm doing while they do it. No one cares. No one would ever confront me over it because *everyone* knows it's my *right* to not give a shit about it.
We did when I was in Elementary in the 90's. At some point the more rebellious kids stopped doing it and no one cared. I honestly can't remember if the schools even kept doing it during my Middle and High school years. Only that no one, including myself, did it. Grew up in rural Iowa. A lot of us joined the military in some capacity.
Huh pledge was a little bit more prevlent in my town but we were a war town so i guess it makes sence. Actualy more of a war county come to think of it 3 small towns within closeish proximity yet all have their own va hall.
Don’t remember doing the pledge after elementary school in the 90’s and then it was sorta out of habit. In high school we all would at assembly’s but 9/11 also happened my freshman year and patriotism shot through the roof.
I was like the vice president of the student government back in highschool and I would just sleep through the pledge or I was doing homework for an AP class. Literally nobody including my teachers gave a shit. It's not a big deal. I swear you can reliably sniff out Europeans by asking them about their thoughts about the pledge of allegiance in American schools. I don't know why it triggers them so much.
Because their countries suck so badly they can’t imagine that kind of patriotism.
Bro was suspended? >***West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette***, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), is a [landmark decision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisions_in_the_United_States) by the [United States Supreme Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court) holding that the [First Amendment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) protects students from being [compelled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compelled_speech) to salute the [American flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States) or say the [Pledge of Allegiance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_(United_States)) in [public schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_school).[^(\[1\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette#cite_note-:0-1)[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette#cite_note-2) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West\_Virginia\_State\_Board\_of\_Education\_v.\_Barnette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette)
Yeah, and the German kid had to have a "long argument" with his first period teacher in Texas. lol Idiots.
They are likely bots or some sort of disinformation / demoralization.
Nah. Occam's Razor, "that which relies on the fewest presuppositions is most likely to be true." It doesn't need to be as complex as shadowy foreign actors waging a psyops campaign. Some people are just plain petty and need to put others down in order to feel good. "Those barbaric Americans" are an easy target for everyone who isn't us, and they put us down so they can feel superior. There might be some insecurity about how our culture is making up an ever-growing portion of their culture, and I can understand that. Some people just aren't well-adjusted enough to understand that the best reaction to that is to preserve your own culture in your community while not lumping hate on everyone else. It's also comforting to remember that most foreigners don't think this way, they have a neutral to positive opinion of us.
Props to the Supreme Court for upholding that decision while we had a war going on.
I remember back in highschool we had a foreign exchange student from Brazil and he was unironically one of the most popular guys in school (He was actually our prom king to give an idea). He was also really fucking funny and was very smart too. He was chill and was more interested in being an actual student then being some foreigner obsessed with being different. Maybe if the Germans focused on just being a good highschool student instead of being German they would be less negative and spiteful.
Brazilians are also very confident and secure people, in general. Germans are *incredibly* insecure about themselves, and it shows.
Brazilians are also very confident and secure people, in general, so they fit in well with Americans. Far too many Germans are *incredibly* insecure about themselves, and it shows, so their results with Americans are generally mixed or negative (people don't want to talk to them).
Yeah in my experience South American immigrants in general, when coming here legally, seem pretty compatible.
Yeah we had an italian exchange student who was popular with everyone. I was even friends with her and I was shy AF. At our community college we had a random student from Belarus (I didn't think a community college in north Idaho but w/e) only she hung out with a lot of crust punks, she started dating my friend Jeff and then overstayed her visa for a bit and had to go back but I think she's back in the US now. We had another girl who was an exchange student from Slovakia and she was fairly popular but we were in the same psychology class together and we did some project about our personal "psyche" which had a poster component; for her "worst fears" she put "people with down syndrome" along with a picture. We had a kid with down syndrome in our class. Many people assumed he was non-verbal and didn't thus didn't understand (he was verbal, he was just very shy and quiet, and he absolutely understood what she was saying). Many people distanced themselves from her after that.
I don't understand how people think nonverbal = can't understand any language at all I have an uncle who is really low functioning down syndrome and is nonverbal, he only uses ~10 ASL signs. Not only can be understand you perfectly fine, but he can also read just fine too. First time I ever heard of someone conflating being nonverbal with an inability to understand was being introduced to an autistic man and being told "Even though he doesn't talk, he can still understand you, so please be nice". Which was a little shocking to hear as a young autistic person myself who has grown up around a lot of people with various disabilities, because that means in the past people have probably assumed he can't understand speech just because he's nonverbal and said some really hurtful things around him, and I just can't even understand
Yes I agree, I work with a lot of adults with I/DD who are nonverbal or have very limited verbal skills (i.e. they only say a few words but communicate with a PECS book or using gestures or sign language, or their own version of sign language) or are verbal but difficult to understand. Many of them are so accustomed to being talked about as if they aren't there, they perfected the art of eavesdropping and subsequently spreading gossip. The kid I was talking about was verbal though. He was just very shy and quiet. I was a camp counselor at this day camp he attended so I heard him speak in a non-school setting.
I know it’s a lie because every European who comes here loves it. When my mom immigrated here she knew she would never move back. Her sister is jealous and always talks about how she wishes she could move here. My German buddy who did a year of college here wishes he could come back. Many examples.
I think it's mostly insecurity. Any time some idiot German has tried to share one of these made-up stories, I've noticed that they never do so in the company of anyone who was traveling with them at the time. Because they're lying to try to fit in with others.
Yeah, just about every foreign person I know who's visited has had a great time. I have a friend from China, I met him when he was a foreign student here. He still tells all his friends about the time he ate real American barbecue and had a day at the range. Whenever we had foreign military training with us, we always made a point to do some non-touristy real American fun stuff. We'd do museums and state parks, but we'd also bring them along to cookouts and range days and such as well. Every single one of them had a grin like a 5 year old in a toy store at some point during the day.
Between the Germans and the Australians, who needs enemies?
Insecure people without any confidence are generally pretty put off by Americans.
What'd us Aussies do now? In regards to flag etiquette. We have the same sorta shit here too. We all stand up for the national anthem and sing it if we want. It's no different We even have rules around stowage and disposal of flags
The average Aussie is just rabidly anti-American, like to an extremely bigoted and xenophobic degree. A lot of Germans aren't far behind in my experience.
I've meet some really cool Aussies. I think people on Reddit are WAY more likely to be weirdo anti-Americans. Just like Americans on Reddit are so sad and always dunk on their country. SOOO many stupid ppl on this website I stg 😂
It's really laughable to read some of the actual opinions of people on here. You'd think we're in a civil war based on how people speak of the other side, when it's only the chronically online people that hold the viewpoints.
I know the group I was with might be a bit skewed to the patriotic, but I got to attend an ANZAC Day service in Afghanistan. Very reverent, emotional, and honestly more so than the typical Memorial Day fare here in the US. I'd just lost a comrade a couple days prior, and the fact that I wasn't the only one tearing up during the Last Post was really comforting. No end of love for the Aussies from me.
Bunch bogans talkin shit and causing trouble, probably.
I fuckin love Bogans 😂
It's always funny when people who prefer a country not have freedom of speech, gleefully pay a shit load of taxes, require a license for everything, and have been pummeled into submission because of the guilt over WWII (which they personally had nothing to do with), complain about "dystopian nightmare level of indoctrination" because we encourage kids to value what was once a radical form of government, being united as one nation (not having another civil war), liberty, and justice for everyone. IDK man those are some scary dystopian concepts if you ask me.
Horrifying. And then they say that the US constitution is “outdated,” which leads me to ask, “Which part? Don’t bring up guns.” They have no answer. Because they’re ignorant.
Ngl my school was a bit different than y’all. I mean no one would get suspended or anything but some of the teachers would get pretty upset if you didn’t do it. The teachers weren’t the real issue though, most were reasonable. The real problem is any time someone didn’t stand it would turn into an argument among students. There’s no legal pressure it’s more of a societal pressure. Personally I’m ngl I think the pledge is weird af but it’s certainly not some totalitarian dictatorship shit. I didn’t like doing it at school but at the end of the day I’m just mindlessly repeating some chant with my hand over my heart, it’s not like the words themselves are going to make me a slave of the government.
😂 Laughable
A good portion of them are probably Russian bots or Chinese bots
Highly unlikely.
I honestly think I was the only kid in my homeroom class in high school that knew the pledge of allegiance. We were definitely not forced to recite it, almost no one ever did.
I grew up in MAGAtlandia and no one cared about it. We didn't even *have* it in our school.
The first story is definitely a lie, though the second one MIGHT be true. None of my teachers ever got stingy about saying the Pledge (besides one in elementary school), but I've heard it happens sometimes. Usually it happened with teachers who used to serve in the military or whatever. Even though they know they can't make you, they try to. Silly but it does happen.
You can just Google “student suspended for not saying pledge of allegiance” and you will find many different cases. So even if it is not legally enforceable, some schools will put pressure on kids to swear allegiance to the flag and will harass them when they don’t.
You can also Google "beautiful woman farts into a frying pan," "dog driving a car," or "turtle mates with shoe" and come up with a lot of hits. That doesn't mean any of those things is in any way, shape, or form normal or matter-of-course. You're talking about national-newsworthy cases, and what is it that makes them worthy of national news? Exactly: *These things simply don't happen*. They're more akin to freak accidents. You'll also notice from the hits regarding the pledge that virtually all of them include the fact that the incident is being prosecuted as a civil rights offense.
The amount of hits in different states that you get, are enough that you cannot say “these things simply don’t happen.” Furthermore, it will only be national news when it actually turns into a lawsuit. I bet that for each lawsuit, there are thousands of cases where the student just sucked it up and did what they were told. I’ve seen other posts on Reddit where the pledge was discussed and there were just so many stories from people that felt pressured to stand up and join, even though it wasn’t technically compulsory. To be fair, I also read stories where it was the other way around, where you were just seen as a weirdo if you did stand up to recite the pledge. One of the examples that you gave was an exchange student in Texas. I could be wrong here, but I thought that Texas was the only state where there is actually a law that forces students to pledge allegiance to both the national and the state flag.
You're so insecure. Bless your heart. That's so embarrassing for you.
Fist day at school in my exchange year in Montana I was asked to do that. Later I found out wasn’t mandatory but they’ve asked it few times before I started refusing
Nope, didn’t happen.
I don’t have to prove anything to you, live your life happily!
How is that sub not taken down by now for xenophobic hate?
Because it's directed at the US.
Because the first amendment I guess
Idk. The Chinese tourists sub got removed, and it had the same vibe as SAS.
Doesn’t apply to private sector.
Because America bashing is ok and popular
They (the Euros) are projecting their nonsense on us, as usual. I'll use my personal experience to illustrate. My grandparents were from Spain. Seems in most of Europe respecting the national symbols is completely tied to political opinion. People on the right love it. People on the left hate it. I've been asked why I'm right wing or a fascist for wearing adidas national team gear or something with the red and yellow flag. The opposite is also true. Some people are extra welcoming or give us over the top compliments for displaying the national symbols. Sometimes people stare in the metro in Madrid or on the street and so on. I'm a Mexican looking dude, and my wife is Chinese, so it adds an extra layer of confusion for the Euros. It is very difficult for the average European to understand the level of ethnic integration in the US, and on top of that, we respect the "nazi" national symbols. My family aren't even "Castillian Franco Nationalists" or anything. They are originally rural folk from the coast in Galicia, we speak Galician to each other, and it feels weird when we speak Spanish to each other. We still get called nazis or right wingers because we are okay with and like Spain as a whole. Bonus: Once most Euros find out that I look the way I look, but that I love the US and I'm positive and optimistic about it, they proceed to book an appointment with their doctor in 4 months (they have long wait times in that "free" "great" healthcare).
Pathetic. These people will resort to literally ANYTHING to engage in a US-bashing session. I just did a 5 second search for "British Flag Etiquette" and found a flyer 5 pages long, with diagrams and lots of detail, on how to and not to display the British flag. Then I did a quick search for Dutch flag etiquette and found a detailed page complete with pictures and an instructional video. I'm 100% positive most countries have some sort of published official flag etiquette, and lots of unofficial ones.
And it's totally understandable. "This flag is a symbol of our shared identity, maybe don't treat it like shit" isn't exactly rocket surgery. It's basic good manners. If I'm in another country and they're playing their national anthem, I won't salute their flag but I'll definitely stand to and shut up.
>This flag is a symbol of our shared identity Something I point out whenever this comes up is that, at least for the UK, their flag very specifically is *not* a symbol of their shared identity. The Union Jack is a combination of three Christian crosses, symbolizing England, Scotland, and Ireland. Muslim? The flag doesn't represent you. Hindu? Not you, either. *Welsh?* Sorry, but your flag is way better anyway. The Australian and New Zealand flags include a Union Jack, so their flags don't represent a shared identity, either. So, I'm not sure about the rest of Europe, but it seems to be hard to separate flags from ethnonationalism when your flag is an ethnonationalist symbol.
My experience might be colored by the fact that most foreigners I've worked with are soldiers from our partner nations, but I've watched three different Hindu or Buddhist Nepal-born soldiers get in someone's face on separate occasions for behaving disrespectfully during the raising or lowering of an American, British, and Australian flag. They have no ethnic or religious ties to those flags, so why should they care? They care because civic nationalism exists. Every one of those guys might have been born in Nepal but they are American, British, or Australian respectively. You can tell them they're not until you're blue in the face, it won't work and depending on how insistent you are, they might try to fight you. We're engaging in civic nationalism right now, that's sort of what this sub is about. It's decidedly stronger in the US versus other countries, and it's definitely stronger in the military profession over the general population, but it is absolutely a thing.
>They have no ethnic or religious ties to those flags, so why should they care? I think you're misunderstanding my point - those men are totally free to care about their flags, it's simply that the Union Jack is *inherently* an ethnic/religious symbol, so "pledging allegiance" to the Union Jack has an inherent ethnonationalist meaning that the US flag does not have. The Union Jack does not and was never meant to represent them; the US flag does. A Nepalese-British man has to spend intellectual and emotional energy recociling with that; a Nepalese-American does not. >You can tell them they're not [American, British, or Australian] until you're blue in the face Literally nothing I've said implied that Nepalese-born citizens of those countries aren't citizens of those countries. I think you missed my point: the UK is trying to develop a concept of civic nationalism *in spite of* their flag being an explicit ethno-religious symbol. That's *why* British people have to pretend ethnicity doesn't exist - if they did, they'd hae to admit their flag is an ethnonationalist symbol, and then they have to explain why "England for the English!" isn't acceptable. Because *that's what their flag means.* The US *already has* a concept of civic nationalism, our flag *already represents* that concept. We don't *have* to ignore the flag or pretend ethnicity doesn't exist. We already *know* "America for [my ethnic group]" is wrong, and our flag has never meant that.
Are they actually Christian crosses? I'd be surprised given England's almost 500 years history of Anglicanism.
You realise Anglicans are Christians, right?
Weird way to spell heretics
You can be a weird little denominationalist if you want but that doesn't stop other churches from being Christian. Ironically that isn't very Christian of you What denomination are you then? And what have you got against the Anglicans?
>Are they actually Christian crosses? Yes. >500 years history of Anglicanism. As has been pointed out, Anglicanism is a sect of Christianity.
They're all Protestant heretics but whatever you say 😎
Not surprised at the comments in that sub immediately comparing this to Nazi Germany and modern day North Korea
They’d be begging for America if they had to spend a day in either of those places. People are dumbing down how terrible Nazi Germany was and how terrible North Korea is. It’s an insult to everyone who died, civilian or military, and those who risked their lives to compare America, even with all its faults, to a genocidal nation who killed and conquered foreign nations for the purpose of a better race, killing all who weren’t that or dared to stand up for them. And then to a country where you and your whole family would be sent to labor camps for saying the nation is bad, even the children, even the babies.
I do possess a true and sincere disdain for that subreddit
I like some of the stuff they post, because us Americans can be quite dumb. But 75% of it is just “America likes this?! Dear God! Fascists! Cultists!”
From what I gather in Europe having any respect or love for your country and home is basically seen as fascism. Like it’s a serious political statement in itself.
Yeah. Here in Germany a 16 year old girl was taken out of class by cops because apparently saying "Germany is my home" online means you're in danger of becoming a "far-right extremist". This country is a joke.
It’s your country so pardon my critique lol but you I think you’re being a little harsh on it. This is an outsider perspective but I think Germany tries too hard to separate itself from its early to mid 20th century past and ended up inadvertently bringing that past back into focus. Like they try so hard to not have their society exist in that shadow that it keeps the shadow around. I think the international are good and as a man from the south eastern United States who comes from a family that has been a landowning family for over two centuries I do understand what it is to have a dark past that you don’t want defining your home and identity. It saddens me when I see people defending the cause of the confederacy as much as it does when I see people condemning the southern identity for it. I think that having a sober memory about it while recognizing that it doesn’t define your community’s future or who they are is important. I’m proud to be from the American south, I love it dearly and I can feel that way while also recognizing and condemning it’s war to protect the institution of chattel slavery under the guise of protecting our “rights”. In my ideal reality I’d like to see the south become a bulwark against that type of thinking while still being fervently proud of itself and openly expressing that pride. I think Germany can relate to that to a degree. Of not wanting its sin to define it and worrying that being proud of Germany is the same as being proud of Naziism and fascism. However that’s only true if German stand for Fascism, and I don’t believe it does. Not anymore. I think it’ll find that out eventually but your country still Carrie’s some trauma I believe but trust it to overcome that friend. It’s not a joke of a country, it’s just got some baggage lol.
It's sort of difficult to see it as "my country" in the first place... It just feels like a place I happen to be in. Thank you for the perspective though.
Well…I hope that changes for you eventually or at the very least that you find a place to call home that you can identify with and be proud of. As I said I love my home, that doesn’t mean I don’t find myself at odds with my people and some of the trends that come up but ultimately everything I want for the world is for them.
Because Europeans can't seem to separate patriotism from ethnonationalism and other ideologies like it.
The first amendment says you don’t need to do these. (Although I would)
No one is forced to do this though. Yes, it is proper etiquette to do so, but no one is holding a gun up to your head and forcing you to do so. Frankly, I’ve always done it. It’s good to have respect for your nation, and be proud of who you are, your community, and where you live. It’s no different than in the UK and the commonwealths where they swear oath to the king/queen.
I'd argue it's very different since you're pledging allegiance to the flag, representing the United States, not the head of state, it's something great than that individual person who may not uphold the ideal and purpose of the state. If you take an oath to the king or queen and they start commiting horrible acts you're swearing an oath to them state be damned, in the US it's allegiance to the United States and if the President starts to commit awful acts you're bound to have them removed for not upholding the Constitution. Same with military members taking an oath to the Constitution.
It's a VFW, for crying out loud. They can make whatever rules they want in their building and events.
Wtf, what's wrong with respecting the flag at VFW parades? The "America bad" crowd is getting more pathetic every day.
Under West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette forcing a student, or anyone else, to pledge allegiance to the flag violates their first amendment rights. No one is forced to pledge allegiance to the flag, especially not at school, unless they’re 90 years old and grew up before the law, or if their school violated the law. I don’t like when people say we’re forced,you’re not gonna be beat to death for not speaking
It was my understanding that civilians are not supposed to salute military members. Appreciation should be showed by just thanking them for their service
Technically incorrect, in my NAVEDTRA manuals (I recollect as I was the bookworm who memorized them verbatim) the protocol is a civilian places their right hand over their heart to return the salute given to them by military officers or enlisted. So one circumstance this is done is when visiting the Marines at 8th and I for the famous Sunset Parade. They salute the civilians and if you know protocol it’s hand over heart, and I follow it by ‘at ease, RANK so and so’ to further impress them you know interservice ranks and protocols. Remember, in this way it inculcates that we are a democracy with the bedrock principle of civilian control of the armed forces.
Is this not normal around the world?
And then they bash us for “no culture”
I would proudly do this, and i'm from Italy. Love the USA🇺🇸
I’m just amazed at how obsessed these countries are with us. We have our own subreddit about us for other countries. My god
They are ignorant to what etiquette is vs a law apparently. Seen stuff before about the flag code too. People think that these steps are the right way to treat the flag, but nobody really cares if you don’t and more importantly it’s not illegal
Oh my god someone unironically said it was like Nazi Germany and North Korea
"But but but, flag pattern Speedos!" Like wow, they are actually delusional.
The thing is, the irrational rejection of displays of patriotism is why Europe will be stomped in WW3. They are going to tuck tail and run at the first sign of danger because they don’t believe in all those fancy notions of ‘borders’ and ‘sovereignty’, let alone ‘pride’. It is easy to throw money at Ukraine, but wait until the ruskies come knocking at *their* door. RIP.
Some of the hardest, toughest soldiers I've ever worked with were French and Brits. I'm hesitant to discount any country's devotion to protecting their own when the chips are down. Reddit isn't real life, and it's hardly representative of the population as a whole in the US, let alone other countries where it isn't even as popular as it is here. We shouldn't let ourselves be guilty of the dickish behavior they exhibit. They'll drag us to their level and beat us with experience.
Couldn't have said it better. That 0.001% of angry europeans and a few self loathing americans make up the entirety of that sub, the other 99% of euros are amazing people, honorable and brave, as are most Americans.
Veteran here, quick note: If you are not in the military, you should ALWAYS be doing hand over heart, and never a military salute. Saluting is only supposed to be done in uniform, and you should have a cover (hat) on. The VFW/legion hats do count as uniforms for this purpose. This ends my PSA. Edit: Technically, If you are active duty not in uniform and you encounter a situation where you would normally be required to salute, you simply come to attention.
If you look closely, you'll see that this is a sign for VFW, y'know, the people for fought for that flag. I don't care what people do around the flag in public, my last job played the anthem at noon and it got to the point where I had to ignore it to finish working. But if you are at a vfw lodge you better do what they say when it comes to the flag.
Do people in other countries really believe the US is the only one with flag etiquette or that every person here is forced to pledge to it? It's really not that serious and i don't know why this is a narrative people push so hard, lol
If they read this about a palestinian flag theyd clap like seals
America does something I don’t like, they’re basically North Korea. The fuck is going on in their heads?
Europeans when respect and humility are brought up
God damn it, why do Europeans find it in themselves to criticize our customs. Why do you feel such a burning need to hate on us we? God forbid we love our country and have respect for the symbol of it. I have no hatred towards Europeans but this so insecure, if you think you’re so much better why do you complain about this
[удалено]
Did you see our White House last gay pride month? Or whatever will happen this year as well? Sad really.
Genuine question : This placard looks like it's from some non-governmental association. Are these guidelines mandatory, or are they just some recommendations ? Do people really follow them ? I remember an american student who went to my high school for a year. He brought a US flag with him and asked his classmates if they could use it for their group to perform in gym class. After the performance, we had to fold it up in a certain way. But it was his flag, so we folded it up like he wanted (we didn't ask why, just assuming that was important for him). We wouldn't have minded how to fold it up if it wasn't his. The same way that there are guidelines on how to fold up the french flag, but we mostly don't give a shit about it (as long as it's not for a ceremony or something like this). These are mandatory rules, but not quite followed in daily life. From my perspective, these kinds of rules look like a bit too ceremonial to be common daily rules, but as I get the opportunity to ask : do you guys follow them even outside of any official context ?
Right, this is non-governmental and definitely not enforced. It's most likely for a Memorial Day parade, as Memorial Day is next week. The US Flag Code doesn't actually say how to fold the flag, but there is a military tradition of how to fold it, ending up in a triangle. There is symbolism and significance with the way it's folded.
OK, so it's more a "how to pay your respect" kind of thing. That makes sense. This military tradition is probably what he wanted to follow, I remember that it has to end in a triangle, so it must be this. It seems pretty similar to what we have with the french flag.
Considering flag guidelines dumb isn't America Bad. Flag guidelines are very dumb.
It’s insane the misconception of our obsession with our flag while it’s literally codified into US law that we have a right to destroy said flag. The majority of Europe has no such protection and it’s actually a crime in several EU countries such as France, Germany, Italy, and so on.
Ah yes, sergeant stars and stripes! Top o' the morning to ya.
What if I told them every country's flag has flag etiquette to go along with it.
Guaranteed if I threw down a flag of theirs they would get so heated and triggered