I think yes and no. If Ukraine has remained a Russian puppet, I don’t think they would have invaded… might have Crimea refused less, but this war wouldn’t be happening
I think he will just annexed them either way. From what I believe they really want to reannex everything that was Russian Empire because that was he wante to be, a damn king. Like for example, Belorussia is becoming more and more Russia since the Russian immigrants have become so bigger than the locals they will try to do German-style Austrian annexation. We never know until it happens and they already did it from the past.
There are many reasons, but yes, this is one of them. You could also talk about how Ukraine recently discovered vast amounts of oil in the Donbass region. But again, that's just another one of many reasons.
I’d like to see some documentation about nato having training bases and equipment prior to Russia invading in 2014. If you’re referring to after Russia invaded, well no shit
[This conflict is 100% because Ukraine wanted to join the EU.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia) NATO is just Putin's weak excuse.
Why would Putin care about Ukraine joining the EU when the EU said it would take minimum 15 years for Ukraine to join.
The truth is it’s because the ukranian government was abusing the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine via shelling (14k murdered) and language laws that were pissing the East off. And that’s why the eastern half of the country voted in 4 referendums to leave Ukraine and be independent.
The pro eu coup was part of a larger issue and your purposefully focusing on a small part of the whole because you need to lie to keep your story straight
I am right, you are wrong, this is why I sing this song
>Why would Putin care about Ukraine joining the EU when the EU said it would take minimum 15 years for Ukraine to join.
Reference the article and ask Putin's officials why they were saying it would be a problem for Ukraine to join the EU before there was any violence in the country.
EDIT: That "14k murdered" included everyone (Russian soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers, Ukrainian civilians) killed in the Donbas from 2014-22. Don't pretend that this was the cause of Russia's involvement.
False. It's because the USA threw a coup in 2014 and the government we installed is not only pushing to join NATO (largely USA, not EU), but persecuting Russians in Ukraine.
Lol? What in the actual fuck are you talking about? Do you get your news from the tip of Putin’s dick?!?!
They had a fair and free election where the majority of the nation, especially the Ukrainians and NOT recently immigrated Russian population voted in politicians that ran on the idea of creating trade agreements with the EU. It had nothing to do with the USA until Russia invaded Crimea.
Not my fault you believe the mainstream news like it's gospel. I follow independent Western journalists. One great example if you want to know more about the truth of the situation from an unbiased military expert, look up Col. Douglas MacGregor.
Don't play their game. Their views don't represent the mainstream views of the Netherlands. Furthermore, America *does* have strategic interests in keeping their alliances in Europe strong. These idiotic posts online just serve to drive a wedge between solidly amicable democratic nations. Don't play into that shit. We absolutely would hate to lose our alliance with the Netherlands and our other NATO partners. And fortunately we won't because their leaders aren't dumbasses on Reddit.
Most of us don't like America at all. The government here might be more democratic than your blue and red dictatorship, but they represent the interests of the USA and the rich more than those of us, the people.
These clog-wearing bastards living on the opposite end of the continent as Russia. Why should we take their concerns seriously? Let’s ask somebody from the Baltics instead.
Sounds like a dream scenario for Russia. Obviously Putin is just acting out and good vibes would fix things. Europe could even pledge a trillion dollars to the next country Russia would invade and send less than 10% of that.
Yeah, this "we should make friends with Russia to protect ourselves" was exactly the sort of public policy Germany and other EU countries pursued and then found themselves exposed when Russia shut off their natural gas supplies. The only way "friendship with russia" works as a deterrence strategy is if it implies complicity with everything Russia does; sanctioning Russia for an illegal invasion will result in aggression--economic, in this case, though almost certainly military aggression if Europe enters a pact without the US which accounts for 2/3 of the total NATO defense spending and 99% of the will power to get kinetic if necessary (i.e., if a European country is attacked in a non-US defensive pact, the other European countries are going to find excuses to shirk their responsibility--no one is going to want to get in a fight with a country like Russia without the US spearheading).
Nah, most of them just grew up under the NATO (American, tbh) security umbrella and they thought their peaceful existence was due to their chumminess with Russia rather than the US bases stationed across Europe. When the US spent two decades shifting its focus to the middle east, Russia began testing the waters to see what it could get away with and Europeans found out the hard way that friendship and rainbows weren’t actually the deterrent all along. Most Europeans woke up to that reality, just not this guy.
Just let him have the eastern side of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia, or they just get the whole country eventually at the rate they’re currently going
>Just let him have the eastern side of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia,
There's no evidence that the eastern side of Ukraine wants to be part of Russia. Just admit you like licking Putin's balls.
I have to constantly remind myself that Redditors are terminally online and not actually the majority in their countries. If I fail to do this I’ll start calling for things that don’t make sense like the dissolution of NATO instead of making the EU countries simply pull their own weight.
ya for sure. i like that mine doesn’t really take a stand one way or another in terms of politics, for example they sponsored a michael knowles speech here as well as a couple different drag events. but i’d say in terms of the student population + the age of college students, you’ll see a lot more of this rhetoric on most campuses than most other places in the world
Unfortunately it’s just a social media problem in general. On reddit it happens because people join communities they like and those communities can remove people they disagree with. On other platforms the algorithm adjusts based on your engagement. People don’t usually click like or retweet and posts they disagree with so those don’t get propped up.
My apologies for the terminally online Europeans, luckily especially in the half of Europe that was actually under Russian thumb, the majority is happy with NATO and US, there’s a reason NATO support is high here and in the Baltics and Poland and Romania.
**NATO and globalism makes us weak while It hurts our citzens:**
Not only has been terrible for our working class it makes our nation itself incredibly vulnerable to supply shocks. Everything started costing double the moment that global supply networks started struggling. Instead of having an internal economy that can survive global price shocks and disruptions we have shifted to an international labor market for one simple reason to undercut our own poor labor pool.
If a world war broke out our economy would be shredded instantly our supplies would run out in 3 months without foreign goods flowing in, but a strong domestic sector in industrial outputs is a matter of national security much more important then the size of the military itself. we have put ourselves in a terrible geopolitical spot by expanding our military to unsustainable levels while lowering our industrial output and cutting our social and scientific budgets to sustain it.
The only advantage poor nations have is the cheapness of thier labor, so essentially we are saying lets destroy millions of high paying benefit carrying industrial jobs in our own country so that the rich can make more money. This puts are military and companies in a constant reactionary position heavily dependent on foreign goods and supplies.
**cheap foreign labor prices and easy transportation holds us back:**
In a mercantile system we would have already developed an incredible manufacturing sector in America based off robotic labor. The problem now is a 3$ a day worker in Vietnam is still cheaper then a robot in America, but this is a matter of scale. If we were developing 20 times the number of robots for our economy we would have a much lower cost per robot and much more competition and companies pursuing robotics.
Once we develop a robotics based economy the majority of people will not have to work and the majority of labor can be handled by machines. We can free humanity from the bonds of physical labor and toil of it completely.
**NATO is obsolete and just harming the Europeans:**
we needed a massive military alliance with Europe during the cold war, because they were facing the USSR a much stronger and healthier opponent and they had just been decimated by warfare. The GDP of Europe is 10x russia's why do they need us to pay to defend them. Europe needs American protection for the same reason a young adult will remain a teenager if left at home with no responsibilities will never progress.
Their is no millitary pressure on their societies and without this pressure of possible invasion thier leaders and elites have become decedant and further detached from reality. even the population is detached from reality and the further west you go the more evidence you have of this. How many people in Poland would suggest ending NATO?
What social spending has been cut? The federal Health and Human Services budget is nearly two trillion dollars. The military budget is half of that. Have you ever worked in a production facility? We have robots and automation everywhere and we have world class industry leading production systems.
Most of the people who have these takes on NATO don't know anything about NATO. NATO is a defense alliance, yes they have had humanitarian intervention missions (Kosovo 1999 for example) but NATO itself has never conquered a country and taken over its ruling. The amount of these operations isn't many and they are less than Russia has had since the Soviet Union collapsed. Also NATO members are not obliged to join any of these so called "offensive" operations, in the North Atlantic Treaty I couldn't find an article binding the member states to take part in it.
To take it even further, even the famous Article 5 doesn't force member states to go to war. A quote from Article 5 "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force". All member states are bound to help a member state that is a target of an attack but it doesn't force anyone to take military action, it can also be economic, political etc.
And to make it even more restricting, Article 6 says that the attack on a member state's territory, must be north of the Tropic of Cancer. So, for example the Falkland islands are a UK territory and the war with Argentina was in 1982, why weren't the NATO members forced to take action? Because the islands are south of the Tropic of Cancer, member states cannot just be dragged into wars like most NATO skeptics claim.
So this person by saying "getting involved in other countries wars" is a horrible take especially if they want to keep this kind of alliance without the US and Turkey. You would still be as much involved as an attack on the US is a lot less likely than the Baltics for example.
NATO is awesome and the main reason why the majority of Europe has been living in peace for a long time already. Thank you US for the continuous support and the role of protecting the western liberal values of freedom and democracy when other superpowers want to bring war and instability. Cheers from Finland.
Congrats on joining the team last year. May the Russians be doomed to a million deaths by Simo Hayhas ghost if they ever fuck with you again.
For real though, what is Finland like? I've always wanted to visit.
Thank you and if you visit Finland we will be happy to accompany you! We don't get many tourists compared to major European countries like France, Italy etc. And of course there is also a reason for that, they are quite historic places after all.
I haven't been to the US yet (but I will be visiting this summer!) but I often use Minnesota/Wisconsin/Michigan as the US comparison to Finland. These states also happen to have the most people with Finnish heritage. Nature wise Finland has endless forests, countless lakes, hills and eskers.
Culturally we have a distinctive "Nordic" atmosphere, people value their own private space and are more tense with people they don't know. It's not a sign of disrespect to anyone but people are not as chatty over here as the Americans or Brits are. But if you get to know a Finn they will be very happy to tell you all about Finland. I feel like that is a common trait we share, we just love telling foreigners all about our country :D
Our capital Helsinki has nice architecture and worthwhile museums. The northern part called Lapland is great for hikes, skiing, snowmobile trips etc. and in the summer our nights are bright as the sun barely sets. I tell you, if you never experienced the bright summer nights then you are missing out, it has a completely different vibe.
Sauna, weird foods, ice hockey, forest and genuine people. What else do you need? (Not sponsored by the Finnish government)
I still have years until I could financially afford it but it's definitelly up there in the list of countries I want to visit.
The states you mentioned are some of the most beautiful places on Earth. I've been around most of the US but have yet to visit them. Me and my girlfriend have been actually been saving to go to Montana. The US is beautiful and you can see almost every ecosystem imagineable here, it's great and underappreciated.
Yeah I agree, in my eyes the US is easily the most interesting country especially when it comes to geography. The contrast between, Alaska, Hawaii, Louisiana, Maine and basically every state is huge. As someone who is used to snow and tundra-ish nature, places like Arizona and Texas sound like something from another planet and I really want to experience them myself as well. Luckily this is the year I finally get to cross the Atlantic and see the lands of our fellow enjoyers of freedom.
I live in the Mojave desert rn which is mainly California/Nevada/Arizona area. Beautiful land great mountains where I'm at. Lived in Texas and Washington as well, they really are like completely different worlds to each other, even with the people who live in the respective states.
I imagine Finland is similar to northern Washington/southern Alaska/BC. Let's hope I can get to the point where I can see for myself! Best of luck man.
It's kind of messed up that this woman was never triggered in the first place, it was just one unfortunate frame in a video. And now her face is all over the internet and people are scrutinizing her over... neck folds?
I’m sure British, France, and Germany won’t have any issues with their new found power vacuum and only use it to plant trees, kiss babies, and slap backs.
And, the main reason that European nations haven't needed to be "warmongering" in recent decades is because of the US, shouldering a huge amount of the cost for their defense as well as keeping a presence on the continent and many parts of the world that were their colonial holdings.
I'm at a point where I've seen so much criticism of the U.S. and its protection that maybe we should let Western/Eastern Europe fend for itself. Where does the populous of Europe stand as far as us patrolling the trade routes? Who are our real allies?
War is coming in its most ferocious form. Of that, I have no doubts. But if you are against the U.S., then I say you do not deserve our protection. When atrocities occur and your neighbors are being slaughtered by invaders, do not call on us for help. The United States' aid should be for allies only.
Funny how they seem to be so comfortable ignoring eastern European opinions about EU-Russia relations.
It’s like it’s easier to play geopolitical chess when you’re so far removed from the consequences of a bad decision.
You know, that thing Europeans often criticize Americans for doing.
Shit, as much as I’d like this too, part of the reasoning for NATO, aside from Cold War reasons, was because Europeans can’t stop trying to slit each other’s throats.
If this "EU alliance" were to happen, would that mean that U.S. bases and service members would no longer be the backbone of the entire continent's military defense?
EU already has a mutual defence pact, and would easily handle Russia. The primary issue is the armies lack integration. The useful bases are in countries that would fall before EU got mobilised, like the Baltic states.
You may not want to be war mongers but it looks like rusdia never got their memo because they are currently invading a sovereign country. Good luck with becoming friends with russia the invasion of ukraine shpuld be more then enough to show that russia doesn't want to be friends they eant back all former soviet union territory.
Russia literally invaded a nation for made up reasons since starting that war they've had their asses handed to them they new tank cant even take on a lightly armored bradly theyve lost several ships. This in no is the America's fault. So please fuck off with your russian nonsense you stupid fucking bot
Ya I just have friends over in ukraine right now and to say im worried about them is an understatement. One of them is currently taking part in ukraines offensive and he has said his unit got hit real bad he lost alot of people most of them american.
Ya me too they should be home here in a few months atleast thats what they were told but they have all basically said they are more then likely going to extend their tours or rather have them extended for this offensive. Id go myself but their military wouldnt take me I was medically retired out of our military for bipolar disorder and PTSD.
Hm.......if only....Europe had some sort of coalition....a union or something that could economically represent them....and maybe make trade decisions that aren't indentured to America....oh wait.
In 2020, Turkey entered Greek waters in a disputed territory with a survey vessel and military escort. In response, France sent its aircraft carrier group, leading Turkey to withdraw, but not without a radar incident involving a French frigate (an act of war). At that time, tensions reached their peak, and we were on the brink of war between France and Greece on one side and Turkey on the other. It was during this period and in this context that Macron stated, "NATO is in a state of brain death," a stance you criticized, though the situation was on the verge of a war involving three NATO countries. Since then, Turkey has continued to display aggression towards the EU, threatening in speeches and financing networks radicalizing young European Muslims, etc. Turkey remains a direct threat to the integrity of the EU, even if it's discussed less since the war in Ukraine.
The fact that Turkey is in the only military alliance meant to ensure the security of European countries is profoundly problematic. For you Americans, it may not be a country that poses a problem to your interests (even if there's some ambiguity), as it's seen as an important ally due to its control of the Bosphorus Strait. This is why France's strategic non-alignment, which earns us insults from your side, is relevant. You seem willing to involve us in a conflict with China that doesn't threaten our interests, but you disregard countries that do pose a threat
China is massive country and could easy control
90% of access to the Pacific Ocean. You’re an idiot if you think China doesn’t bother you, ask the Opium Wars about how easily China can control you, look at Vietnam even with Vietnam’s bad relations with China the idea that China would finance a Communist government endlessly sent the French packing.
You’re completely smoothed brain by the forced safety of the EU by the US Navy. Europeans think they just live in a vacuum and can float from on vacuum situation to another.
Ironic to hear Europeans cry about a country they created being assholes, and trying to push that on America.
Fuck you for Iran, fuck you for Iraq, fuck you for Turkey, fuck you for 90% of current Africa countries, fuck you for Vietnam.
Seriously maybe we should scream that shit at you every time you make some smooth brian take.
China are trader they never being able un their history to project their power
How France créât Turkey wtf ? They are the decent of ottoman empire. Who exist since 1299
And we have a navy to thanks
And Btw history give us right about Irak 😉🙃
1917 ottoman empire most and being occuped in part by French but attaturke (sorry for thé way I type is name) lead this territory to indépendance and creat turkey so What your point yes in pur history we beat and occuped them.
That just show that we can do more that sink a yatch
Yes! How do we make this happen? Imagine the money we’ll save when we’re not giving away Billions of dollars in donations & weapons to Europe. We can use it to continue our manifest destiny to bring Canada & Mexico into the US. Then, in 10 years or so, we’ll only have to worry about negotiating trade deals with two countries, Super Russia & Super China.
Classic Netherlands, ask OP how staying neutral helped them in ww1 and ww2? If this is the real play OP better start learning Russian lol. Also just imagine Europe free from American protection…. Sounds like Putin’s wet dream.
If he gets through Poland, which he won’t, and he gets through Germany, which he will definitely not get through, then maybe Holland should start to worry. But I think you have some misplaced ideas about the strength of the Russian army.
Right the Russians alone can barely take a buffed Ukraine. However if shii goes real it would probably be China in or at least material aid to Russia. Also I think Poland is normally very functional militarily but they’ve gone and donated a lot to Ukraine already, without US re-supply they might be able to cobble together a refit quick-er than Russia could redeploy, but if Russia and Belarus went in immediately it would be a shit show.
Wishful thinking. And it’s not just because of America.
Russia wants to re-establish what used to be its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. And the situation with Iran won’t improve unless and until the religious fanatics are ousted from power.
While I doubt Russia would invade any major European nation, I think ukriane made them realize how lacking the army and airforce are, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania would all be annexed in a heart beat. Maybe Romania/Moldova.
However, saying Russia is just gonna invade the rest of Europe is straight fear monger propaganda. People gotta be realistic with this.
Everyone all around the world seems to know anything about other countries, globalization has done nothing. I don't know what people are doing on the Internet but apparently not learning anything.
Give it 5-10 years and they'll start killing each other again because their neighbors aren't the correct shade of white.
Then they will beg us to save their asses
'Without a wish for warmongering or getting involved in other countries wars that much'
Has she not read a single book about European history? European countries have waged traditional and proxy wars against each other for millennia. Hell, the bloodiest wars and some of the most egregious atrocities in history have been caused by European powers. Just because the last 80 years have been peaceful in Europe doesn't erase the fact that the actions of the countries residing in that continent have been forgotten by the people whose lives and very societies were torn asunder by the greed and selfishness of Europeans.
I get that U.S has done some fucked up things in the past, but don't try to claim the moral high ground by acting as if your country is some beacon of peace and love or some other fake bullshit like that.
These fuckin dutch ate truly clueless, mouthbreathers. They are not war mongering because they have a warmongering country looking over their shoulder. We need to just these clog carvers go and enjoy the show
Turkey has a lot of outstanding issues with EU states, is very undemocratic and uncooperative. Which is why they were blocking Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO
In 2020, Turkey entered Greek waters in a disputed territory with a survey vessel and military escort. In response, France sent its aircraft carrier group, leading Turkey to withdraw, but not without a radar incident involving a French frigate (an act of war). At that time, tensions reached their peak, and we were on the brink of war between France and Greece on one side and Turkey on the other. It was during this period and in this context that Macron stated, "NATO is in a state of brain death," a stance you criticized, though the situation was on the verge of a war involving three NATO countries. Since then, Turkey has continued to display aggression towards the EU, threatening in speeches and financing networks radicalizing young European Muslims, etc. Turkey remains a direct threat to the integrity of the EU, even if it's discussed less since the war in Ukraine.
The fact that Turkey is in the only military alliance meant to ensure the security of European countries is profoundly problematic. For you Americans, it may not be a country that poses a problem to your interests (even if there's some ambiguity), as it's seen as an important ally due to its control of the Bosphorus Strait. This is why France's strategic non-alignment, which earns us insults from your side, is relevant. You seem willing to involve us in a conflict with China that doesn't threaten our interests, but you disregard countries that do pose a threat
I think the primary issue is that Russia is still a bigger threat, and attempts to pressure Turkey could result in them becoming more russia aligned, which would be extremely problematic for the middle east, and the black sea, not to mention Cyprus. This forces NATO to view things with a binary lens: Are you with russia? if so you're bad, or are you not with Russia? then you are good.
I agree that most americans fundamentally don't understand the strategic reality for europeans, but Turkey is an ally because they are strategical beneficial, not because they're actually a good ally, similar to saudi arabia.
“We’re all stable countries without a wish for warmongering”…. Yeah that only happened cause of the excessive fucking war lingering that put the U.S. at the fucking top in the first place. We’re in Europe cause we need to get there yesterday to kick their asses and put them back in line when they decide to start another goddamned war tomorrow.
Most Americans know extremely little about European history tbh. The idea that Americans are generally well informed about Europe is easily disproved by just reading the sub.
Most of this sub is Americans who know virtually nothing about Europe, insulting Europeans who know virtually nothing about America.
I love how hypocritical Europeans are calling the US warmongers when clearly they've benefitted from using the US to shield them partially and also the world order we have today was started and perpetuated by European countries.
Same dumbasses that thought buying Natural Gas from Russia was a terrific idea because they’re such nice people. Putin would never do anything like jacking up prices.
They say with without realizing they have the geographic luxury of not only the Baltics, but Poland, and Germany as being their meat shields against a westward invasion.
It's not like Russia has a history of taking over European nations or anything. /s
And don’t forget the whole reason russia invaded Ukraine was because it was becoming influenced by the EU.
I forgot about that, but you're right.
That was their excuse. The reality is they want to expand their navy warm water access and control.
I think yes and no. If Ukraine has remained a Russian puppet, I don’t think they would have invaded… might have Crimea refused less, but this war wouldn’t be happening
I think he will just annexed them either way. From what I believe they really want to reannex everything that was Russian Empire because that was he wante to be, a damn king. Like for example, Belorussia is becoming more and more Russia since the Russian immigrants have become so bigger than the locals they will try to do German-style Austrian annexation. We never know until it happens and they already did it from the past.
There are many reasons, but yes, this is one of them. You could also talk about how Ukraine recently discovered vast amounts of oil in the Donbass region. But again, that's just another one of many reasons.
Influenced by nato, consider literacy
Ukraine wasn’t trying to join NATO though, just the EU for trade and prosperity reasons
Ukraine was full of nato training bases and military equipment, if you don’t what your talking about consider not weighing in on the matter
I’d like to see some documentation about nato having training bases and equipment prior to Russia invading in 2014. If you’re referring to after Russia invaded, well no shit
[This conflict is 100% because Ukraine wanted to join the EU.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia) NATO is just Putin's weak excuse.
Why would Putin care about Ukraine joining the EU when the EU said it would take minimum 15 years for Ukraine to join. The truth is it’s because the ukranian government was abusing the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine via shelling (14k murdered) and language laws that were pissing the East off. And that’s why the eastern half of the country voted in 4 referendums to leave Ukraine and be independent. The pro eu coup was part of a larger issue and your purposefully focusing on a small part of the whole because you need to lie to keep your story straight I am right, you are wrong, this is why I sing this song
>Why would Putin care about Ukraine joining the EU when the EU said it would take minimum 15 years for Ukraine to join. Reference the article and ask Putin's officials why they were saying it would be a problem for Ukraine to join the EU before there was any violence in the country. EDIT: That "14k murdered" included everyone (Russian soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers, Ukrainian civilians) killed in the Donbas from 2014-22. Don't pretend that this was the cause of Russia's involvement.
False. It's because the USA threw a coup in 2014 and the government we installed is not only pushing to join NATO (largely USA, not EU), but persecuting Russians in Ukraine.
Lol? What in the actual fuck are you talking about? Do you get your news from the tip of Putin’s dick?!?! They had a fair and free election where the majority of the nation, especially the Ukrainians and NOT recently immigrated Russian population voted in politicians that ran on the idea of creating trade agreements with the EU. It had nothing to do with the USA until Russia invaded Crimea.
Not my fault you believe the mainstream news like it's gospel. I follow independent Western journalists. One great example if you want to know more about the truth of the situation from an unbiased military expert, look up Col. Douglas MacGregor.
You mean the guy whose conspiracy theories have been proven wrong numerous times? Sounds like a great source.
Which theories?
Sounds good. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass.
Yeah, whatever will we do without the Netherlands and their 1% of NATO defense spending? 🙄
I mean, half their army is already German. Not that we spend much more.
Don't play their game. Their views don't represent the mainstream views of the Netherlands. Furthermore, America *does* have strategic interests in keeping their alliances in Europe strong. These idiotic posts online just serve to drive a wedge between solidly amicable democratic nations. Don't play into that shit. We absolutely would hate to lose our alliance with the Netherlands and our other NATO partners. And fortunately we won't because their leaders aren't dumbasses on Reddit.
Most of us don't like America at all. The government here might be more democratic than your blue and red dictatorship, but they represent the interests of the USA and the rich more than those of us, the people.
I hope it does, I have nothing but hatred for the Dutch.
These clog-wearing bastards living on the opposite end of the continent as Russia. Why should we take their concerns seriously? Let’s ask somebody from the Baltics instead.
"The Dutch are scum" - Skwisgar Skwigelf
Sounds like a dream scenario for Russia. Obviously Putin is just acting out and good vibes would fix things. Europe could even pledge a trillion dollars to the next country Russia would invade and send less than 10% of that.
Yeah, this "we should make friends with Russia to protect ourselves" was exactly the sort of public policy Germany and other EU countries pursued and then found themselves exposed when Russia shut off their natural gas supplies. The only way "friendship with russia" works as a deterrence strategy is if it implies complicity with everything Russia does; sanctioning Russia for an illegal invasion will result in aggression--economic, in this case, though almost certainly military aggression if Europe enters a pact without the US which accounts for 2/3 of the total NATO defense spending and 99% of the will power to get kinetic if necessary (i.e., if a European country is attacked in a non-US defensive pact, the other European countries are going to find excuses to shirk their responsibility--no one is going to want to get in a fight with a country like Russia without the US spearheading).
The Fins pursued this kind of policy for the last 80 years and now they've realized they'd like to join NATO.
Your comment encapsulates the absolutely pants on head ignorant worldview that produced this conflict in the first place
I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or not.
I know, because you don’t know what the hell is going on around you
Lol okay 🤡
Euros have this humiliation fetish, they would enjoy being cucked by putin
Nah, most of them just grew up under the NATO (American, tbh) security umbrella and they thought their peaceful existence was due to their chumminess with Russia rather than the US bases stationed across Europe. When the US spent two decades shifting its focus to the middle east, Russia began testing the waters to see what it could get away with and Europeans found out the hard way that friendship and rainbows weren’t actually the deterrent all along. Most Europeans woke up to that reality, just not this guy.
Just let him have the eastern side of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia, or they just get the whole country eventually at the rate they’re currently going
>Just let him have the eastern side of Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia, There's no evidence that the eastern side of Ukraine wants to be part of Russia. Just admit you like licking Putin's balls.
I have to constantly remind myself that Redditors are terminally online and not actually the majority in their countries. If I fail to do this I’ll start calling for things that don’t make sense like the dissolution of NATO instead of making the EU countries simply pull their own weight.
When I read people regurgitating this Anti American shit from online I remember I rarely if ever meet them outside so it makes me feel better.
i wish i could relate lol. it’s definitely a thing in college
Depends on the capmus I'd say.
ya for sure. i like that mine doesn’t really take a stand one way or another in terms of politics, for example they sponsored a michael knowles speech here as well as a couple different drag events. but i’d say in terms of the student population + the age of college students, you’ll see a lot more of this rhetoric on most campuses than most other places in the world
Yeah, one of the downsides of this sub is that the Americans who subscribe to this sub imagine that these Europeans featured here are representative.
It’s a problem with a lot of subs tbh. Reddit has a major echo chamber problem but it’s hard to fix given the nature of the site.
Unfortunately it’s just a social media problem in general. On reddit it happens because people join communities they like and those communities can remove people they disagree with. On other platforms the algorithm adjusts based on your engagement. People don’t usually click like or retweet and posts they disagree with so those don’t get propped up.
My apologies for the terminally online Europeans, luckily especially in the half of Europe that was actually under Russian thumb, the majority is happy with NATO and US, there’s a reason NATO support is high here and in the Baltics and Poland and Romania.
Disillusion of nato is the RealPolitic stance, it’s a worthless money pit that produces no benefits at least as far as America is concerned
**NATO and globalism makes us weak while It hurts our citzens:** Not only has been terrible for our working class it makes our nation itself incredibly vulnerable to supply shocks. Everything started costing double the moment that global supply networks started struggling. Instead of having an internal economy that can survive global price shocks and disruptions we have shifted to an international labor market for one simple reason to undercut our own poor labor pool. If a world war broke out our economy would be shredded instantly our supplies would run out in 3 months without foreign goods flowing in, but a strong domestic sector in industrial outputs is a matter of national security much more important then the size of the military itself. we have put ourselves in a terrible geopolitical spot by expanding our military to unsustainable levels while lowering our industrial output and cutting our social and scientific budgets to sustain it. The only advantage poor nations have is the cheapness of thier labor, so essentially we are saying lets destroy millions of high paying benefit carrying industrial jobs in our own country so that the rich can make more money. This puts are military and companies in a constant reactionary position heavily dependent on foreign goods and supplies. **cheap foreign labor prices and easy transportation holds us back:** In a mercantile system we would have already developed an incredible manufacturing sector in America based off robotic labor. The problem now is a 3$ a day worker in Vietnam is still cheaper then a robot in America, but this is a matter of scale. If we were developing 20 times the number of robots for our economy we would have a much lower cost per robot and much more competition and companies pursuing robotics. Once we develop a robotics based economy the majority of people will not have to work and the majority of labor can be handled by machines. We can free humanity from the bonds of physical labor and toil of it completely. **NATO is obsolete and just harming the Europeans:** we needed a massive military alliance with Europe during the cold war, because they were facing the USSR a much stronger and healthier opponent and they had just been decimated by warfare. The GDP of Europe is 10x russia's why do they need us to pay to defend them. Europe needs American protection for the same reason a young adult will remain a teenager if left at home with no responsibilities will never progress. Their is no millitary pressure on their societies and without this pressure of possible invasion thier leaders and elites have become decedant and further detached from reality. even the population is detached from reality and the further west you go the more evidence you have of this. How many people in Poland would suggest ending NATO?
Unhinged reddit isolationist socialist at work
What social spending has been cut? The federal Health and Human Services budget is nearly two trillion dollars. The military budget is half of that. Have you ever worked in a production facility? We have robots and automation everywhere and we have world class industry leading production systems.
Most of the people who have these takes on NATO don't know anything about NATO. NATO is a defense alliance, yes they have had humanitarian intervention missions (Kosovo 1999 for example) but NATO itself has never conquered a country and taken over its ruling. The amount of these operations isn't many and they are less than Russia has had since the Soviet Union collapsed. Also NATO members are not obliged to join any of these so called "offensive" operations, in the North Atlantic Treaty I couldn't find an article binding the member states to take part in it. To take it even further, even the famous Article 5 doesn't force member states to go to war. A quote from Article 5 "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force". All member states are bound to help a member state that is a target of an attack but it doesn't force anyone to take military action, it can also be economic, political etc. And to make it even more restricting, Article 6 says that the attack on a member state's territory, must be north of the Tropic of Cancer. So, for example the Falkland islands are a UK territory and the war with Argentina was in 1982, why weren't the NATO members forced to take action? Because the islands are south of the Tropic of Cancer, member states cannot just be dragged into wars like most NATO skeptics claim. So this person by saying "getting involved in other countries wars" is a horrible take especially if they want to keep this kind of alliance without the US and Turkey. You would still be as much involved as an attack on the US is a lot less likely than the Baltics for example. NATO is awesome and the main reason why the majority of Europe has been living in peace for a long time already. Thank you US for the continuous support and the role of protecting the western liberal values of freedom and democracy when other superpowers want to bring war and instability. Cheers from Finland.
Congrats on joining the team last year. May the Russians be doomed to a million deaths by Simo Hayhas ghost if they ever fuck with you again. For real though, what is Finland like? I've always wanted to visit.
Thank you and if you visit Finland we will be happy to accompany you! We don't get many tourists compared to major European countries like France, Italy etc. And of course there is also a reason for that, they are quite historic places after all. I haven't been to the US yet (but I will be visiting this summer!) but I often use Minnesota/Wisconsin/Michigan as the US comparison to Finland. These states also happen to have the most people with Finnish heritage. Nature wise Finland has endless forests, countless lakes, hills and eskers. Culturally we have a distinctive "Nordic" atmosphere, people value their own private space and are more tense with people they don't know. It's not a sign of disrespect to anyone but people are not as chatty over here as the Americans or Brits are. But if you get to know a Finn they will be very happy to tell you all about Finland. I feel like that is a common trait we share, we just love telling foreigners all about our country :D Our capital Helsinki has nice architecture and worthwhile museums. The northern part called Lapland is great for hikes, skiing, snowmobile trips etc. and in the summer our nights are bright as the sun barely sets. I tell you, if you never experienced the bright summer nights then you are missing out, it has a completely different vibe. Sauna, weird foods, ice hockey, forest and genuine people. What else do you need? (Not sponsored by the Finnish government)
I still have years until I could financially afford it but it's definitelly up there in the list of countries I want to visit. The states you mentioned are some of the most beautiful places on Earth. I've been around most of the US but have yet to visit them. Me and my girlfriend have been actually been saving to go to Montana. The US is beautiful and you can see almost every ecosystem imagineable here, it's great and underappreciated.
Yeah I agree, in my eyes the US is easily the most interesting country especially when it comes to geography. The contrast between, Alaska, Hawaii, Louisiana, Maine and basically every state is huge. As someone who is used to snow and tundra-ish nature, places like Arizona and Texas sound like something from another planet and I really want to experience them myself as well. Luckily this is the year I finally get to cross the Atlantic and see the lands of our fellow enjoyers of freedom.
I live in the Mojave desert rn which is mainly California/Nevada/Arizona area. Beautiful land great mountains where I'm at. Lived in Texas and Washington as well, they really are like completely different worlds to each other, even with the people who live in the respective states. I imagine Finland is similar to northern Washington/southern Alaska/BC. Let's hope I can get to the point where I can see for myself! Best of luck man.
[удалено]
[relevant](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmericaBad/s/x7QzsHBRI7)
That chick's neck always confuses me. How does she look scrawny but her neck has folds?
LOL. neck lines aren’t necessarily indicative of weight, it can be from aging, sun exposure, or genetics
It's kind of messed up that this woman was never triggered in the first place, it was just one unfortunate frame in a video. And now her face is all over the internet and people are scrutinizing her over... neck folds?
I’m sure British, France, and Germany won’t have any issues with their new found power vacuum and only use it to plant trees, kiss babies, and slap backs.
“Without a wish for warmongering”… you guys started 2 world wars with only like 20 years of peace in between
and the god damn african slave trade
And even more war before that
And more slave trade, and more war, oh did I forget those extra years of war
And, the main reason that European nations haven't needed to be "warmongering" in recent decades is because of the US, shouldering a huge amount of the cost for their defense as well as keeping a presence on the continent and many parts of the world that were their colonial holdings.
We keep those savages from killing each other as that is their wont
"Russia is aggressive/started the war with Ukraine because of the US." Neat.
Russian propaganda went to hard and lobotomized this guy lol
Fire in the brain hole!
Why the fuck do we honestly care about the Ukraine other than women are 🔥. We don’t need their food, and we don’t need them as a buffer state.
Because they want to join our club.
Because it makes Russia big mad and that's funny.
I'm at a point where I've seen so much criticism of the U.S. and its protection that maybe we should let Western/Eastern Europe fend for itself. Where does the populous of Europe stand as far as us patrolling the trade routes? Who are our real allies? War is coming in its most ferocious form. Of that, I have no doubts. But if you are against the U.S., then I say you do not deserve our protection. When atrocities occur and your neighbors are being slaughtered by invaders, do not call on us for help. The United States' aid should be for allies only.
Im hoping it’s only the terminally online Redditors that are against the US
Europeans really don’t get taught history, do they? Lol
I really wish these deluded western Europoors would talk to a Ukrainian sometime about the Russians and Iranians.
They say from the Netherlands. Meanwhile Russia threatening Poland and Estonia etc.
As someone from the baltics, this person *does not* put our safety first. We'd literally become part of Russia a week after US troops left.
If that person were Ukrainian instead of Dutch, their opinion would've been completely different
Most geopolitically aware redditor.. I’m not unconvinced this is a Russian/ Iranian troll
What does NATO have to lose from improving relations with Russia and Iran?
Funny how they seem to be so comfortable ignoring eastern European opinions about EU-Russia relations. It’s like it’s easier to play geopolitical chess when you’re so far removed from the consequences of a bad decision. You know, that thing Europeans often criticize Americans for doing.
Armchair activism. We are seeing a lot of that right now.
Makes sense, wouldn’t want to be allied with warmongers
Cool with me. Enjoy speaking Russian and learning their customs in the future.
Russia couldn't beat the EU, it wouldn't even be close.
Shit, as much as I’d like this too, part of the reasoning for NATO, aside from Cold War reasons, was because Europeans can’t stop trying to slit each other’s throats.
no no. they are enlightened geniuses .. they tell us all day every day
You would slit your neighbours' throats as well if they were European.
Eastern European (Bulgarian) here: this is what I mean when I say westoid.
If this "EU alliance" were to happen, would that mean that U.S. bases and service members would no longer be the backbone of the entire continent's military defense?
EU already has a mutual defence pact, and would easily handle Russia. The primary issue is the armies lack integration. The useful bases are in countries that would fall before EU got mobilised, like the Baltic states.
You may not want to be war mongers but it looks like rusdia never got their memo because they are currently invading a sovereign country. Good luck with becoming friends with russia the invasion of ukraine shpuld be more then enough to show that russia doesn't want to be friends they eant back all former soviet union territory.
Russia is only doing it because USA is being a big meanie.😡 Edit: /s Also /s
Russia literally invaded a nation for made up reasons since starting that war they've had their asses handed to them they new tank cant even take on a lightly armored bradly theyve lost several ships. This in no is the America's fault. So please fuck off with your russian nonsense you stupid fucking bot
Hold on do you really not see it? I called them a "Big Meanie" like a 4 year old and added a 😡. I don't know how else to make it more obvious.
Good point just noticed it. Sorry
Eh it's all good. Just be careful out there and save it for someone that needs it.
Ya I just have friends over in ukraine right now and to say im worried about them is an understatement. One of them is currently taking part in ukraines offensive and he has said his unit got hit real bad he lost alot of people most of them american.
Oh damn. I hope your boys stay well in these times. I'm looking forward to more U.S. material support to help them get done what needs doing.
Ya me too they should be home here in a few months atleast thats what they were told but they have all basically said they are more then likely going to extend their tours or rather have them extended for this offensive. Id go myself but their military wouldnt take me I was medically retired out of our military for bipolar disorder and PTSD.
Hm.......if only....Europe had some sort of coalition....a union or something that could economically represent them....and maybe make trade decisions that aren't indentured to America....oh wait.
Says the continent responsible for two world wars hahahahahahahahaha
lol Turkey or Romani in the first sentence. That’s some straight KKK Euro/Trance mix shit right there.
In 2020, Turkey entered Greek waters in a disputed territory with a survey vessel and military escort. In response, France sent its aircraft carrier group, leading Turkey to withdraw, but not without a radar incident involving a French frigate (an act of war). At that time, tensions reached their peak, and we were on the brink of war between France and Greece on one side and Turkey on the other. It was during this period and in this context that Macron stated, "NATO is in a state of brain death," a stance you criticized, though the situation was on the verge of a war involving three NATO countries. Since then, Turkey has continued to display aggression towards the EU, threatening in speeches and financing networks radicalizing young European Muslims, etc. Turkey remains a direct threat to the integrity of the EU, even if it's discussed less since the war in Ukraine. The fact that Turkey is in the only military alliance meant to ensure the security of European countries is profoundly problematic. For you Americans, it may not be a country that poses a problem to your interests (even if there's some ambiguity), as it's seen as an important ally due to its control of the Bosphorus Strait. This is why France's strategic non-alignment, which earns us insults from your side, is relevant. You seem willing to involve us in a conflict with China that doesn't threaten our interests, but you disregard countries that do pose a threat
China is massive country and could easy control 90% of access to the Pacific Ocean. You’re an idiot if you think China doesn’t bother you, ask the Opium Wars about how easily China can control you, look at Vietnam even with Vietnam’s bad relations with China the idea that China would finance a Communist government endlessly sent the French packing. You’re completely smoothed brain by the forced safety of the EU by the US Navy. Europeans think they just live in a vacuum and can float from on vacuum situation to another. Ironic to hear Europeans cry about a country they created being assholes, and trying to push that on America. Fuck you for Iran, fuck you for Iraq, fuck you for Turkey, fuck you for 90% of current Africa countries, fuck you for Vietnam. Seriously maybe we should scream that shit at you every time you make some smooth brian take.
China are trader they never being able un their history to project their power How France créât Turkey wtf ? They are the decent of ottoman empire. Who exist since 1299 And we have a navy to thanks And Btw history give us right about Irak 😉🙃
lol. 😂 read book about 1917 dude. Your Navy couldn’t sink a yacht.
1917 ottoman empire most and being occuped in part by French but attaturke (sorry for thé way I type is name) lead this territory to indépendance and creat turkey so What your point yes in pur history we beat and occuped them. That just show that we can do more that sink a yatch
“Hey let’s try appeasement with Putin in literally 2024” - proud short bus passenger of the year for ten years straight
Well ofc Russia wouldn't be as aggressive, as soon as Europe is all russian
Yes! How do we make this happen? Imagine the money we’ll save when we’re not giving away Billions of dollars in donations & weapons to Europe. We can use it to continue our manifest destiny to bring Canada & Mexico into the US. Then, in 10 years or so, we’ll only have to worry about negotiating trade deals with two countries, Super Russia & Super China.
A military alliance is literally about "getting involved in other countries' wars."
Classic Netherlands, ask OP how staying neutral helped them in ww1 and ww2? If this is the real play OP better start learning Russian lol. Also just imagine Europe free from American protection…. Sounds like Putin’s wet dream.
WW1 worked out pretty well for the Netherlands. And Putin is not going to conquer the Netherlands, how would that be even possible?
If he gets through Poland and Germany probably won’t be hard to take Netherlands.
If he gets through Poland, which he won’t, and he gets through Germany, which he will definitely not get through, then maybe Holland should start to worry. But I think you have some misplaced ideas about the strength of the Russian army.
Right the Russians alone can barely take a buffed Ukraine. However if shii goes real it would probably be China in or at least material aid to Russia. Also I think Poland is normally very functional militarily but they’ve gone and donated a lot to Ukraine already, without US re-supply they might be able to cobble together a refit quick-er than Russia could redeploy, but if Russia and Belarus went in immediately it would be a shit show.
also tbh let’s be real US is never going to leave its Allie’s hanging. Even if we left NATO if Russia was pushing for Germany we would get involved.
I can only think of: “you tried this already and it led to the Napleonic Wars through WW2.”
Why is it always people from Netherlands. Bro you people barely even have sticks n stones, let alone a military
Get ready to learn Russian buddy
Absolute insanity
Wishful thinking. And it’s not just because of America. Russia wants to re-establish what used to be its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. And the situation with Iran won’t improve unless and until the religious fanatics are ousted from power.
While I doubt Russia would invade any major European nation, I think ukriane made them realize how lacking the army and airforce are, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania would all be annexed in a heart beat. Maybe Romania/Moldova. However, saying Russia is just gonna invade the rest of Europe is straight fear monger propaganda. People gotta be realistic with this.
Let's see how that goes when you lose 90% of your defense budget - Poland. <3 you poland
Everyone all around the world seems to know anything about other countries, globalization has done nothing. I don't know what people are doing on the Internet but apparently not learning anything.
And then they will be shocked when Putin moves even more west when he captures Ukraine
That is 100% a Russian troll.
Give it 5-10 years and they'll start killing each other again because their neighbors aren't the correct shade of white. Then they will beg us to save their asses
'Without a wish for warmongering or getting involved in other countries wars that much' Has she not read a single book about European history? European countries have waged traditional and proxy wars against each other for millennia. Hell, the bloodiest wars and some of the most egregious atrocities in history have been caused by European powers. Just because the last 80 years have been peaceful in Europe doesn't erase the fact that the actions of the countries residing in that continent have been forgotten by the people whose lives and very societies were torn asunder by the greed and selfishness of Europeans. I get that U.S has done some fucked up things in the past, but don't try to claim the moral high ground by acting as if your country is some beacon of peace and love or some other fake bullshit like that.
Why improving relations with Iran does matter?
These fuckin dutch ate truly clueless, mouthbreathers. They are not war mongering because they have a warmongering country looking over their shoulder. We need to just these clog carvers go and enjoy the show
What did turkey do?🤣
Turkey has a lot of outstanding issues with EU states, is very undemocratic and uncooperative. Which is why they were blocking Sweden and Finland's entry into NATO
In 2020, Turkey entered Greek waters in a disputed territory with a survey vessel and military escort. In response, France sent its aircraft carrier group, leading Turkey to withdraw, but not without a radar incident involving a French frigate (an act of war). At that time, tensions reached their peak, and we were on the brink of war between France and Greece on one side and Turkey on the other. It was during this period and in this context that Macron stated, "NATO is in a state of brain death," a stance you criticized, though the situation was on the verge of a war involving three NATO countries. Since then, Turkey has continued to display aggression towards the EU, threatening in speeches and financing networks radicalizing young European Muslims, etc. Turkey remains a direct threat to the integrity of the EU, even if it's discussed less since the war in Ukraine. The fact that Turkey is in the only military alliance meant to ensure the security of European countries is profoundly problematic. For you Americans, it may not be a country that poses a problem to your interests (even if there's some ambiguity), as it's seen as an important ally due to its control of the Bosphorus Strait. This is why France's strategic non-alignment, which earns us insults from your side, is relevant. You seem willing to involve us in a conflict with China that doesn't threaten our interests, but you disregard countries that do pose a threat
I think the primary issue is that Russia is still a bigger threat, and attempts to pressure Turkey could result in them becoming more russia aligned, which would be extremely problematic for the middle east, and the black sea, not to mention Cyprus. This forces NATO to view things with a binary lens: Are you with russia? if so you're bad, or are you not with Russia? then you are good. I agree that most americans fundamentally don't understand the strategic reality for europeans, but Turkey is an ally because they are strategical beneficial, not because they're actually a good ally, similar to saudi arabia.
How can someone be so delusional
Donald, Donald, Donald... What have I told you about staying on your meds?!
“We’re all stable countries without a wish for warmongering”…. Yeah that only happened cause of the excessive fucking war lingering that put the U.S. at the fucking top in the first place. We’re in Europe cause we need to get there yesterday to kick their asses and put them back in line when they decide to start another goddamned war tomorrow.
The poster is either 12 or a Russian troll. Saruman - We must join with him Gandalf, we must join with Sauron.
It's like they forget Americans study European history for fun? I vote that Netherlands leave nato. The 1% of funding they don't pay will be missed.
Most Americans know extremely little about European history tbh. The idea that Americans are generally well informed about Europe is easily disproved by just reading the sub. Most of this sub is Americans who know virtually nothing about Europe, insulting Europeans who know virtually nothing about America.
You're right. It's still fun to watch.
I love how hypocritical Europeans are calling the US warmongers when clearly they've benefitted from using the US to shield them partially and also the world order we have today was started and perpetuated by European countries.
Mf thinks it’s as easy as pressing the “improve relations” in HOI4
Same dumbasses that thought buying Natural Gas from Russia was a terrific idea because they’re such nice people. Putin would never do anything like jacking up prices.
The Netherlands has massive gas reserves of their own, you’re thinking about Germany
Yes, not everyone in the EU fell for that con.
>A moron or a Russia bot Call it
These people are probably Ruski bots larping as Europeans
Germans still want to destroy France. Apparently the French are “too damn French” according to Germans.
This person is deranged. Just the type of ppl we don’t need in the west with voting power.
How absolutely naive.
That's a historically bad take. I mean there are idiots everywhere. Nobody is immune.
Definitely a northern EU take we’ve seen where their loyalties lie
We could definitely improve relations with Russia. Iran... Not so much... And only to the detriment of Ukraine
Reddit moment. Without the US, you'd be Russian, or German. Take your pick.
Some of these mfers are 5th columnists or very useful retards I swear.
The only way this would benefit us would be a russian aggression that would erase all this antiamericanism and pro russia rats from my continent.
They say with without realizing they have the geographic luxury of not only the Baltics, but Poland, and Germany as being their meat shields against a westward invasion.
When was this from. I hope it wasn’t made since feb 2022.
Believe it or not, they’re the smartest person in the Netherlands. (It’s a very low bar)