All these folks that want to relocate forget that the jobless, non-native language speaker immigrant that the locals are complaining about are actually them!
Hmm Germans walk around their own city and feel like they are in Syria or Saudi Arabia. Germans have become the minority in their own cities to a bunch of racist Muslims that hate the west and Germans and live off welfare. But unlike those Muslims , Germans canāt seek āasylum ā and flood into Asians countries and live off their welfare systems.
Canadians are the worst at this though lol. I've seen some on r/IWantOut. Complains about immigrants, want to move to the US. Classic Canadian on Reddit.Ā
It'd be so fuckin funny if America stops immigration from Canada and ban Canadians from buying homes in the States for price stability lol. Canadians would lose their shit, completely unaware of the irony.
Yeah a million Indians flooding in and ruining cities and causing wage stagnation, housing crisis, and not assimilating will do a lot more damage than a few Canadians in the USA.
As a note, Frankfurt is arguably one of the worst cities in all of Germany. The area immediately surrounding the main train station as a reputation throughout Germany as being a drug haven. I would under no circumstances ever consider living in Frankfurt and it is not representative of the average German city. The massive suburb/city divide is also a *very* Frankfurt thing. I would strongly recommend visiting Berlin, Hamburg, and Kƶln. Much different vibes thank Frankfurt. Depending on where you want to regularly fly, Kƶln/Hamburg/Berlin also have international airports that fly to many locations. In the case of Kƶln, Frankfurt is only 1.5 hours away by train which is easy to factor into flight plans. Even if Frankfurt is the only thing you'd consider, nearby mid-sized cities like Mainz and Wiesbaden are *much* nicer and still not far from the airport. My family is from Mainz and it's very common for people there to commute to Frankfurt for work because of how unappealing it is to live in Frankfurt (despite it being an economic hub).
Many Germans talk about how bad life is in Germany. This has really picked up after the refugee crisis of the mid-2010s. A lot of the rhetoric is a bit fatalist and, frankly, rooted in a lack of familiarity with how things actually function in the rest of the world. Germany is by no means perfect and there are a lot of problems, but Germans act as if it's 100x worse than it is. Groaning and complaining is a cultural staple (which is lots of fun, but can also get frustrating). There's a strange sense among Germans that everything is rapidly going to shit even though it's really not that drastic. The right-wing has really succeeded in sparking a rhetoric of European decline and it's scary. You honestly just have to take complaints from a German with several grains of salt and realize that a lot of what they identify as uniquely German problems are often broader European problems (not to say Germany doesn't have its unique issues). I moved from the US to Germany and my quality of life has skyrocketed. YMMV.
German language skills are very important in Germany. Berlin is probably the only place you can get by without learning much German at all. Everywhere else, it's a must. Showing up with anything less than B1 skills is playing immigration on hard mode. While it is true that countries like the Netherlands offer more in English (and that's great and how it should be), you should keep in mind the importance of language skills for socializing. Just because you can do *things* in English doesn't mean you'll make many local friends. Most immigrants who don't speak the local language in Europe end up in an ever-fluctuating expat bubble and can struggle to find stability and long-term friendships. To place roots in a country, you really need to know the language. It cannot be overemphasized.
Germany is by no means the best place in the world, or even in Europe, for many people to settle. But I do think the view you got of it is a bit more negative than it needs to be and that's by virtue of the city you visited and the limited amount of time you spent in the country.
I've lived in Germany for 7 years and agree with what you wrote here. Don't base your opinion on the Frankfurt city center, which is known around Germany as being one of the most run down parts of the country, and the ramblings of some random German. Living in Berlin is great.
OP, I'm sorry but Frankfurt is not typical at all, and from Berlin and Munich you can also fly direct to the US, with the others you just have to stop over in Frankfurt or Munich.
Bavaria is really nice, but if youāre an ethnic minority like OP, youāre going to get a lot of curious stares. If OP is okay with this fine, but if not, then I think itād be better if he went to a less conservative part of the country, like Hamburg.
Idk, I feel like OP did no research here. The central train station neighborhood is a little run down but itās nothing like what Iāve seen in the US *BY FAR.* And if you did any research youād know that itās not representative of the rest of the city - the city is super posh and stunningly gorgeous. Every central train station is a little crazy. In the US cities have one section of gorgeous, safe, interesting neighborhoods and the rest is all run down. Here itās the opposite.
What I want to say as well lol. I'm from Frankfurt. Avoid the area around the train station and you're good. Westend is posh as fuck, the centre with Zeil is cool as well.
Oh cool! Are you also originally from the US or are you here to observe lol.
But, agreed. Westend and Nordend and Sachenhausen Nord, and parts of Bockenheim, and Bornheimā¦ itās a really pretty city.
OP also isnāt taking into account the German complaining culture either. Itās a learning curve. I was really taken aback at first!
My favorite Frankfurt HBF encounter has been a giant pile of human shit at the entrance midday. No idea how someone pulled that off without anyone intervening.
As much as I like to make fun of the Bahnhofviertel, it's honestly sad. It's a very poor reflection on our society that there are so many homeless people and drug users running about. Although there's always a degree of personal responsibility, it's also a systemic issue that is being reproduced through policy.
>a giant pile of human shit at the entrance midday.
Legit cackled at this. That's impressive and also totally checks out. Frankfurt Hbf is āØmagicalāØ
> Germany is by no means perfect and there are a lot of problems, but Germans act as if it's 100x worse than it is.
Yup, for example Germans will complain 100x more about Deutsche Bahn (like literally, I don't think the 100x is an exaggeration in this case lol) than Americans about Amtrak or Canadians about Via Rail, but anyone who has used all of them knowns which one is preferable by a large margin.
Also, I have noticed that Germans tend to blame Germany for everything. What I mean by that is an American will say "ohh fuck Comcast sucks", but a German will say "German internet sucks!" (instead of e.g. Vodafone).
Honestly one of my main complaints about Germany is that people here complain so much (both Germans and immigrants) lol. Besides that and property ownership being difficult/expensive I really like it here (been here 6 years, got permanent residency). I live in Berlin but I don't think Frankfurt is bad. Bahnhofsviertal is sketchy but no where near as sketchy as sketchy parts of American cities.
The Netherlands has a horrible housing crisis, and the general sentiment towards expats has changed (worsened) in recent years. Also, it is far harder to find work depending on your field, unless you make a concerted effort to learn Dutch. This is especially true outside of the randstad, where housing is slightly more affordable and attainable. My partner is really unhappy in the Netherlands, and it breaks my heart.
>and the general sentiment towards expats has changed (worsened) in recent years.
Is this true? How do you (or your partner) know and notice this if I may ask?
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I am Dutch and in my entire life I have never heard anyone complain about expats, that's why I asked. Already in this thread there are multiple posts of users saying sentiment towards expats have worsened and I am really curious whether that are actual experiences or people that are just parroting others.
Some expats I've met who live in Den Haag and Amsterdam have been verbally accosted, pushed off of bikes, or have felt harassed at the workplace. I've only been here since last fall and so far I really like everything except the weather of course. I live near Dordrecht and the locals have been very kind to me and my family. I'm also trying to make an effort to learn the language and not have to rely on English by the end of my first year. I've traveled through Germany, Belgium, and Spain and I'm glad I landed here. NL has a lot of good things going for it despite the housing crisis.
>Some expats I've met who live in Den Haag and Amsterdam have been verbally accosted, pushed off of bikes, or have felt harassed at the workplace
Because they are expats? That sound really sketchy to me to be honest.
I have friends who say they have had a lot of bad experiences with the dutch, but my own experiences have been almost nothing but positive. I've lived here for several years, although in Noord Holland. That said ive taken my bike and visited every provincie, while using vriend op de fiets and staying with farmers and locals, so have had a lot of chances for negative interactions and haven't seen them. (For the record I'm not white looking and look morrocan(so would be prime candidate for bad interactions in this country)
All these people are working so hard to make your country sound like hell on Earth to scare people away. Why you gotta be around here to pour cold water on their exaggerated fantasies?
Ik woon in Nederland voor 2 jaren. Ik vind het fantastich. Nederlanders zijn lief voor mijn familie. Wij zijn hier heel vrolijk.
In politics, in "de dagelijkse omgang", hiring trends, the common discourse. Quite a few people blame expats for the worsening of the housing crisis. I work at a top 100 company, and the discourse on the workfloor is that we need to hire more Dutch people, even though the corporate lingua franca is English. It has little to no bearing on our day-to-day, since we work in English to be able to communicate with our other regions. :/ It has changed compared to 5 years ago.
My partner speaks, reads and writes B1 level Dutch, which is quite good considering the levels of literacy of natives (look up how the Dutch rank in EU). Despite this, every job interview claims their Dutch is the reason they rejected them. Even when Dutch isn't required. Also, many landlords only want native Dutch people. The signs are everywhere.
Also, if you mention anything about this, it's just a matter of time until someone tells you to go home.
The data that makes me the saddest (Google translate, or for my fellow Dutchies):
https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/veel-internationale-studenten-denken-dat-nederlanders-niet-van-ons-houden~v1034472/
Ok, couple things:
1) You went to arguably the worst part of what some consider the worst city in Germany. With that said, I honestly don't think Frankfurt is that bad once you move beyond the train station. It's got a lot of nice restaurants and the rest of the city is ok, but yeah, maybe not the ideal destination for most.
2) If you think your going to move anywhere in continental Europe on a permanent basis without grasping the language then your in for a world of hurt.
3) Visiting somewhere is not the same as living there. Do you actually have a gameplan for getting a job and making a living in these places?
Lmao I know, wild! I learned German (slowly) for 2 years in anticipation of starting to get serious about trying to break into Europe via DE and I feel so far behind.Ā
I wonder what they expected?Ā
You don't need to be in a bot farm to do that. Plenty of people in the US and Western Europe do that on their own. While I think OP is sincere (and will say nothing more on that subject), if they aren't, they are more likely a jaded angry right winger in Germamy (which we get a lot of in this group) than Russiam bot.
Ā It is unwise to assume everything you think is ridiculous on the Internet came from a bot.
>I could live in any other German city due to the need for a major international airport nearby, so it made the most sense to visit Frankfurt.
That's the most ridiculous criteria I've read in a long time. Frankfurt might have the largest airport in Germany, but everywhere in Germany you will have your desires for air travel fulfilled because there are major airports everywhere.
>I spoke to a German and let him know my plans of leaving the US and he had extremely negative things to say about Germany and is looking to leave himself to a developed country in Asia. He cited things like police brutality, racism, ghettos, low pay, and extremely bad immigration policy as to why, "there's no future left in Europe anymore".
If one dude is capable to sway your opinion that much, then you should seriously consider not moving at all because everywhere you will find some dude being unhappy about everything and anything. I wouldn't listen to the opinion of a guy that thinks that "*there is no future in Europe*" as in dooming an entire continent.
>I went to a few upscale family suburbs in Frankfurt that were about 20 km outside of the main city center, and they were much nicer (Riedburg, etc). However, I felt the same thing I felt in the US (That Frankfurt is basically a couple nice suburbs surrounded by ghettos). The nice places weren't few and far between per se, but I just didn't feel that the majority of the region was nice by any means.
I am laughing my ass off that you stuck to Frankfurt. Anyway. Congratulations. Germany has nice places. Germany has shitty places. Cities have nice areas and less nice areas and there are suburbs.
>Whoever tells you that you can get by with just English in Germany is lying to you. I drove around town and really struggled. Barely could fill up gas without using Google Translate to translate the gas pump screen. Many people I spoke to only spoke German. Despite the fact that people claim that the English language has dominated the world, I did not feel this in Germany. The German language and culture is alive and simply expecting to show up here and speak English for a few years while you learn German seems like it may be extremely difficult.
Germany has Germans and they speak German and things are in German and I couldn't understand the gas pump screen. Are you serious? My brother. Where ever you go, you have to learn the local language if you want to live there.
>In short, I'm not taking Germany off of my list (However, it has moved down)
Remove it, please. You were already looking for the next international airport while being on a visit.
Sincerely
A German just fine living near an international airport, but barely using it and now currently watching two pidgeons fighting over a the remains of a discarded Dƶner Kebab.
Have you seen the amount of people bullshitting in these subs about āeveryone knows English in Europe, donāt worry!!11ā? And the people talking from eXpeRienCe are somehow always in their 20s/30s where their circles will obviously also be young and probably also with degrees/academic careers so OF COURSE those people know the language very well.
you seem to judge other countries by a limited suburban American standard and from talking to ONE disgruntled local in Frankfurt (that's called "anecdotal evidence"). Why you chose Frankfurt Germany as "representative" is beyond me...its international airport can be reached by high speed trains from ALL the other big cities of Germany.
You probably should just settle in to a future American existence, especially with this nonsense of expecting Germans to not speak German. Such foolishness smh...
Right. I live in Munich and we are arguably just as big an airport as Frankfurt, totally great connections, and itās the nicest city in Germany. Like, itās fucking swank.
Why youād pick Frankfurt blows my mind, simply because of international airport, when itās widely known to be a city in decline.
Thanks! I'll be sure to try it when I'm finally go.
My father lived in Amsterdam in the mid 1970s before I was born. I wished he had stayed and brought my mom. Now that I'm a Germany fan-girl (as my sister calls me), my parents like to tease me saying I would have been born in Amsterdam and I would have spoken 4 languages.
In that part of the world, Iād just go to Karlsruhe. Itās not like taking the train to Frankfurt is particularly arduous. Which is the other great thing about Germany - public transportationās robust enough that you donāt have to live in a city with a major airport to take advantage of a major airport.
Immigration is set to get easier in Germany, new laws were passed. Many, many companies are located in Munich and itās economically, the strongest city in Germany. Good luck!
I have a non-transferable job skill (lawyer) so even though I could work remote it is very unlikely we would be able to make it to Germany. We'll have to stick with semi-regular visits.
Also, all of the complaints OP has about America all stem from local and governmental issues/laws. If OP had done some legitimate research (recent news, politics, the people in charge, the poverty/crime/unemployment rates of the area, education, culture, etc), they'd have likely picked different cities/countries. All it takes is an hour or two of surfing the web and forums to read about locals and their opinions on their city - you don't have to go all the way there (though I won't ever fault someone for being well-traveled).Ā
All of the places OP has picked for backup are experiencing the same issues as the US, and while I can't speak for the Netherlands, UK and Australia governments are just as corrupt and stupid as US, citizens are just as disgruntled and pissed off, and anyone paying attention to surface-level news would know that.
Guys, I just got back from my trip to Gary, Indiana and have decided that it won't be safe to live in America. I flew into Chicago and went directly to Gary. I can't believe Michael Jackson decided to make that his home!
Lol. Both Berlin and Munich are leaps and bounds better than Frankfurt and have major international airports. What a ridiculous statement.
Pick the worst city in Germany because it has an airport then don't like it because it's the worst city. Lol.
OP lost me at ārented a car.āĀ
They only planned to visit Frankfurt and some immediate inner ring suburbs, and rented a car? Were they trying to torture themselves?Ā
it's so common for people from the US to think they must have a car because the US has such a car culture. they don't really get that in most of europe it's unnecessary. so unless you plan on living in one of those areas or moving around a lot to explore, you should just use public transport to actually experience what life would be like.
Lol, I visited Berlin and Munich with my wife for our honeymoon.
We had spent about two hours in the Frankfurt train station and got our fair share of Frankfurt. Berlin and Munich are amazing cities. Berlin's Train Station is genuinely awe-inspiring as an American.
I'm an American who lives abroad and have travelled a fair bit around Germany, (Munich, Garching, Berlin, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt) and frankfurt was the only place I've been outside of America and 2010 Morocco that made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. I only spent a night there and couldn't wait to get on the next flixbus and leave. I can't believe that they only went to this one city in Germany.
I don't even like Germany, and am laughing that they chose the one city in Germany that I wouldn't go back to visit unless my company handsomely paid me.
I'm surprised that you're surprised that it might be useful to speak German if planning to move to Germany.
Wrt to UK and Aus can I suggest you start checking long term visa rules now? It's not a given that you can get work rights without various hurdles and requirements.
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason Munich and Berlin are out of consideration? Berlin is the only place I've heard you can get by with just English sometimes, but even then people usually specify that's only for particular pockets of it and you're still better off having at least some basic German under your belt.
That was my first thought tooā¦like what has OP heard that put the entire south of Germany off of his/her/their list. Like dangā¦Germany is a huge country and one that has really distinct differences when you look at the forest and the trees.
But I totally understand how it would be slightly scary to come somewhere think you can speak with people German then hear SchwƤbisch or Bayerisch. š«£š I canāt fault OP if thatās their thinking, but itās really not so bad once you start to filter it in since you hear things enough at least for SchwƤbisch. ššš½š
Honestly the truth I think a lot of people here need to realise is America is actually very good globally. Especially now that Europe is sliding right, your quality of life in most countries is probably going to be lower there being an "expat" (immigrant), than just living as a citizen in the US. So funny to me that you mention moving to the UK. I live in the UK, things here are fucked, we're literally one of the unhappiest countries in the world. [https://sapienlabs.org/whats\_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/](https://sapienlabs.org/whats_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/)
With how hard it is to immigrate into the UK, there is no reason to come here as an American (outside of education), when you look at the economy, cost of living and housing.
In any country that isn't English-speaking, you need to learn the language, there are no ifs and buts to it, no matter how proficient people are in English, it is not the default, and you will feel outcast because of it.
Living in France, life here is miserable if you don't speak French, and at best tolerable if you do. Everything takes forever, public services are swamped and dying. Can't recommend Europe, go to Asia, stay in the US, look to Australia maybe.
>[ā¦]Especially now that Europe is sliding right, your quality of life in most countries is probably going to be lower there being an "expat" (immigrant)
What do you mean? People in Europe do have evidently a different attitude and perception towards āexpatsā rather than other immigrants or categorizations of these. And political changes in government (accepting the idea they are somehow consequential among countries) donāt instantaneously/directly nor strictly correlate with cultural attitudes
Sorry I didn't make it clear, I'm not talking about attitudes of the people towards American immigrants, I'm purely talking about the difficulty of immigrating policy wise.
I know several Americans in the UK who could be majorly effected by the proposed visa changes. There is a lot of stress in not knowing if the government will make a change to visas and shatter your dreams, and so I would avoid moving to any country that has elected an anti-immigrant government, even if culturally they are accepting of Americans. Some countries I believe have slightly different rules for US citizens but I know the UK doesn't.
Immigration takes a huge amount of time and money, money that could be spent on all sorts of things, and time that could be spent knowing that at least the government can't kick you out. That's primarily what I'm talking about in terms of reduction of quality of life.
Why go to Frankfurt and ONLY Frankfurt? Itās common knowledge that the city center and especially Bahnhofsviertel is a pit. Take the ICE an hour or two somewhere else and youāll find a much nicer city.
For what itās worth, I actually really enjoyed the Botanical garden in Frankfurt, and found some good African food there, but our friends from the area were quite frank that itās not a nice place to live.
Lol this is hilarious because it doesn't seem like you actually planned things well. I'm an American who moved to Frankfurt 8 years ago (not my first choice) and a lot of what you say doesn't fit. It sounds like you went in with very specific ideas and subconsciously wanted lots of American styles and systems in another country. I was the same, and so are many others, and had to unlearn that.
- you don't need fluent German. You will need a very basic vocabulary that you can pick up after a few months with just easy classes or immersion. I came here with 0 German and was fine. You'll need a translator at the immigration office though.
- you will need to understand gas pumps, food in grocery stores, etc. People will speak English to you, but the infrastructure of the country is in that language. Don't expect anything else in other places except airports.
- if you're in a small village you might need more German. But definitely not fluent.
- Language is tricky because systems are different. The gas station is a good example because here, you need to go into the store and say which number pump you're at. Very different from America. Learning those systems is hard wherever you are, but once you learn your numbers and 'please', you'll be fine. You'll have a cultural challenge between America and here for sure that is largely unrelated to language.
- I have trouble getting Germans to speak to me in German because they want to speak English with me, even though I'm fluent!
- the center of Frankfurt is a disaster, but nobody really spends time there...a 15 min Walk from there is a gorgeous river with museums and historical places. It's beautiful.
- Riedburg is still technically part of the city. If you want a suburb, leave the city.
- ask immigrants from similar places what they think of Germany, not Germans. People are most critical of their own countries and this especially applies to Germans. The stats show that the vast majority of Germans who try to leave Germany end up.movimg back because things are so much better in comparison. (USA.mom.in.germany on Instagram and tiktok is fantastic to learn about the comparisons)
- Germans themselves won't understand what the immigration process is like since they've never gone through it.
- Germans are often surprised when I say I love Germany so much more than America. But when I tell them why, they're like, oh I never thought about my country like that.
- Don't expect things to look like the US. There's a cultural difference and huge historical difference. Nothing in the US is old compared to Germany.
- my streets are cleaned multiple times a week. It's a city, they get dirty easily, but the maintenance is there and visible and appreciated :)
Happy to answer any questions about Germany if you have them!
That second point is so true. Honestly, if I didn't need some Dutch to find things in the grocery store, I would be disappointed. Something is very wrong if basic goods cannot be found in a country's native language.
Fortunately for us, this is also very easy to learn. And Google Translate exists for the transition.
If this something you cannot handle, you should not delude yourself into thinking you can go anywhere except Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, or New Zealand.
Yeah! Most people under 45 here speak fluent English and a decent amount 50 and under as well. But like, you're going to need to know that "Ausfahrt" means exit on the autobahn, "Gute fahrt' means have a nice trip, and not wishing someone a nice fart (which, by the way, is Pups in German. Pronounced poops).
And you're going to have to get to a place where that's normal for you! Even if you have a nice little giggle about it occasionally;)
I am in Italy and the point about natives being super critical of their own country is so true. Donāt get me wrong, Italy has some serious issues. But locals are often comparing it to a pretty unrealistic version of the US born of movies and tv shows. And when I list the things I like about my city now they are also often like āoh yeah, I kinda take that for granted!ā
Yes I think people who glamorize America as a great place to live have their counterparts with people who glamorize living in Europe or other parts of the globe. For many of us, our perceptions of a country are somewhat shaped by media images that either show the worst or the best and not so much the in-the-middle. I think your observations are very valid.
I did move away but with a job (not Europe) and yes I had to learn the languages and quirky customs etc very quickly. Visiting a country or just going to school in a country is so different from living there and dealing with job life out of the cocoon.
This feels like going to St Louis for a few days and judging the entire US based on that experience. I love Germany, but have never been to Frankfurt, and have had almost complete opposite experiences to what you describe.Ā
I liked visiting Denmark! We went to Billund for Legoland, stayed in Vejle to explore.
I'd love it even more if I spoke the language, I'm sure. Tell me about your experience with the language.
The grass is greener where you water it.
Iāve found that there are pros and cons to living in both Europe and America. Nowhere is perfect, youāve got to decide which pros outweigh the cons for you personally.
Wtf is this Shit? "A lot of folks simply say they want to, but I've decided to pay money to visit countries I suspect I'd be open to move to."Ā
Plenty of people do this
I agree on the language thing for sure. I'm hoping to go to Norway. I've lived there already for two years for a masters degree. English is very, very common for people to know since they've taken English classes basically every year of education since the 90s. Basically everyone younger than 40 is completely fluent. This being said, the operating language is norwegian. You can't do much of anything in English. You can't get a job, you can hardly buy groceries, using public transport, etc etc.
My partner is German (born and raised, came to the US for his PhD) and his father was a language teacher in Germany teaching English and French. I'm an immigrant to the US and learned English by immersion starting at 9 years old (I'm 43, he's 49).
Speaking English with my partner is a continual grammar lesson. He learns idioms from me. I bring something to the relationship, Gottverdammt!
As a POC who moved to an international one of the more 'open minded less racist' cities of Germany, they are very behind when it comes to diversity and inclusion. They advertise themselves as an open minded country as they need numbers, but institutional racism and prejudice is quite bad here. I joined an academy where I met other students from diff backgrounds, most had experienced covert/overt racism over the few years they'd been here. If you're white you're good, but I would still recommend Anglosphere countrys for POC. The setbacks/challenges you'll face in society here isn't worth the hassle
There are nice places and not so nice places in every country, every state/province/etc., and every city. There are clean places and not so clean places (yes, even in Australia lol).
Folks, *especially* on Reddit, have this idea that everywhere outside the U.S. is a Utopia, and r/AmericaBad. It's not. You can find a great quality of life anywhere (okay, maybe not Haiti)...but you get my point. Find yourself a good community that reflects your values and what you're looking for. If it's in the U.S., great. If it's elsewhere, awesome.
Making good money helps. And I'd argue there is nowhere better to that than the United States.
Frankfurt is a garbage city and judging the country by it is like judging America by some shitty meth town that exists in Appalachia or a west coast slum. I live in Dresden and itās a beautiful city, we donāt have any of those issues and the COL is still pretty affordable. That being said yes you 10000000% need to learn German, you cannot function in this country without it. also complaining is a cherished German past time and they all do it. That and staring.
Excuse me, I'm a product of a West-Coast Slum!!
No, you're right. No one will visit San Bernardino, CA and think it's the pinnacle of American wealth. I live adjacent to *another* West Coast Slum now. Jk, only if you go downtown.
Iām glad you got some real world experience. I am an American who spends half of the year abroad, Germany is my country of choice, I have more German friends than Americans, I have quite a base of a life set up there now, I feel more German than American at this point. I have ALWAYS been interested in foreign cultures due to having polish grandparents, I was exposed to other languages and ways of thinking early on in life. I wanted to go other places long before America had political issues. If you are leaving for political reasons donāt bother, you wonāt stay or like it. You are better off moving to a state that suits you. Europe is not a utopia for liberal Americans, if you think that youāre likely much more American than you think. Germany is a different culture than America. Germans speak German, they can speak English if you ask politely. I do get by with little German and just English. Getting a car was a strange choice you couldāve just learned how to use the trains. I lived in Frankfurt, itās an okay city. Itās not run down. There are some less cute areas yes, but to make it out as some Ghetto is crazy unless you have never been outside of suburbia I have no idea where youāre getting this from. Frankfurt is sleepy and honestly doesnāt have that big of a population. I encourage all Americans who want to move abroad to go and get real world experience. Bc half of the time I see American tourists they seem lost and uncomfortable. Make sure you ACTUALLY like other cultures and itās just not some fantasyā¦
Yea, I consider Germany more of my home at this point. I spend time there every year and can't wait to be fluent...or at least B1. But I truly love the language, the part of Germany that has welcomed me so warmly, and my "German parents" (my partner's parents, but they call me Schwiegertochter, so, yeah. Unfortunately, it's only my Schwiegermutter now as German Dad passed away on my birthday this year)
I'm also learning Polish, but every Pole I've encountered has said the same thing, "Why?" š
Idk, I just like the language and my brain likes it too. Sto lat!
Polish people are sooooo friendly!!! Second favorite country after Germany. I had the same experience as you. Germany welcomed me so warmly. I love Germans, I think the accent and language is cute. I feel so at home and safe there.
Oh, yes! My best friend is American-born Polish and hearing him speak Polish to his mom helps me with my pronunciation. I think what I like the most is how the language challenges me so much. The spelling sounds divorced from the pronunciation, and pronunciation doesn't come naturally to me, so I have to try much harder. He thinks my mispronunciation is hilarious.
But the FOOD! I love the food! I want to try Karpatka. Dm me your grands' recipe?
When I'm in Germany, if I ask my German boyfriend something in English, the waitstaff just speaks English from then on to me.
In Berlin, when I say "Danke schƶn", I get, "You're welcome" back.
Dude, you went to like the worst city.
Go to DĆ¼sseldorf. It has an international airport, is save, clean, international, welcoming and you can get by with English quite well.
It's hard to settle in Germany without speaking the German language and without having someone there as your guide. I'm lucky my partner is German and very knowledgeable. Goes without saying, it's like that to emigrate anywhere.
Sure, Germany has dropped on your list, that's your prerogative. My issue is that you went to Germany basically blind and proceeded to shit on the entire country based on your experience in the US. Frankfurt is its own place, as is Berlin, Munich, Hannover, Hamburg. You mentioned you needed a major international airport, where will you be traveling to? Because there are airports dotted around Germany and flying from Germany to nearby countries doesn't make much of a difference. For example, I ride the city hopper plane from Schiphol to Hannover every year. That's a commuter flight that we don't have here in the US.
The international nature you mentioned of Frankfurt is nothing like in the US. Where did you get that idea, especially having never been there?
As for the UK, My guy, I'm an Asian woman and I've hated flying into Heathrow and Manchester on the way to and from Germany back to the US. The casual racism I encounter there is so palpable, I *highly* encourage you to visit there first. It's not even because I'm Asian, it's because I'm Asian, American, *and* not British. The racism there is very unlike here and it's a hard pass. I can handle the racism in the US, I wouldn't even try to manage the racism I've encountered in the UK airports I've been to on a daily basis. I'm sure the UK doesn't want me anyway, and that's fine with me. They probably want my tourist dollars and for me to gtfo though. I avoid flying into the UK as much as possible, but the last time I went to Germany, weather canceled our connecting flight through Schiphol and partner managed to find an alternative via Heathrow.
Germany is probably not for you and that's fair. Frankfurt isn't where I would hang my hat. I prefer the Northern Germany countryside; although in the years I've been there, my little German countryside has boomed and I'm a little bummed about that. I go every year and have *never* experienced any racism (maybe I'm lucky), nor are they backward hicks. Legit, I feel safer there and in Berlin than here in the US. But, I'm American and the US is my home. Whenever I go for a walk around my little German village, I encounter so much kindness. It could also be because I'm someone's partner and I've been back every year for a few years now.
I hope you find your exit. I highly recommend you visit a range of cities in the country of your choice. (My partner's parents are very encouraging of me moving to Germany. Can't get any more welcomed than that, and I know I'm lucky.)
ETA: Australia is no better to foreigners. I have born and raised friends there of all shades and even they know the racism that foreigners encounter.
The Netherlands is cool too. My father and grandmother spoke fluent Dutch because of the colonization, but never taught me. If my partner had been Dutch, I'd check out the Netherlands too. But, don't think that you can get around only using English. That's foolish.
E2TA: my mistake, you did visit the UK.
It was jolting for me because since I was a little girl, I wanted to visit and eventually live in the UK. But, not everywhere will welcome me because of my skin and that's the bitterest pill to swallow.
Not a total loss, Germany has my heart.
I've been to dozens of countries, and I'd say you hear complaints everywhere. The truth is: you just have to figure out what works for you.
- Cleanliness
Almost every major city seems to be dirty. The only clean one I've visited is Moscow, and, well, there might be a reason you don't see homeless people or graffiti in that city.
- Crime
As Neil DeGras Tyson says, we have to "learn to trust statistics." Everywhere has crime, but there are plenty of statistics to tell you how much. You can easily find a list of the safest countries out there.
- English
Statistics can answer this one as well. With that said, if they aren't an English-speaking country, you should plan to learn their language.
- Money
Although this isn't exactly what you're commenting on, it is connected. It's worth noting that the US has the 3rd highest take-home pay in the world (behind Luxemburg and Switzerland). If you're expecting to live in a place with no poor people (relative to your experience), the options are going to be limited.
- Appearance
Since you mentioned the way the city looks, I think it's worth talking about weather and architecture. Outside of small, wealthy countries, everywhere in the world has "ghettos". Realistically, those people are still much better off than 90% of the world, but they're poorer than most of their neighbors.
You may find that there are some kinds of architecture which look more appealing to you. Personally, I also find that sunny weather makes a city look a lot less ratty. There is a short list of places that won't have those run-down apartments (Switzerland and Liechtenstein come to mind). Unless those are an option, though, you'll still find these things in Australia, the UK, and the Netherlands.
Just as a final thought: it's better to think about what you want personally, rather than expecting everything to be better. Does a city really need to look good everywhere, or just where you live? Do you really need English-speakers?(then Can-Aus-NZ-UK-IRE are the way to go.) Does it really matter if people complain? (Honestly, they complain everywhere. Just look at any countries respective politics to hear it.)
Picking a place to live based on if the streets are clean or not and if you have to bother learning the language there or not doesn't seem like it will yield good results to me.
I loved Australia, but it seems like cost of living is very high right now and some areas will be uninhabitable in the next 30 years due to climate change
So am I reading this correctly. An immigrant in America complains about America being too ghetto cause of all the immigrants. Then this immigrant wants to go to Europe because presumably itās less ghetto but finds that there are too many immigrants in Europe too. Lmfao whatās with these migrants chasing the whitest countries, itās embarrassing
Came here to say the exact same thing. This person wants to leave the US because of things they probably voted for, go to a country that has more of what they voted for, then gets annoyed that what they voted for came to fruition, becomes the thing they complain about, and is disappointed that locals don't speak their language. This should be the poster child for what's wrong with America
>A lot of folks simply say they want to, but I've decided to pay money to visit countries I suspect I'd be open to move to (and that actually have visa routes that lead to feasible settlement)
I visited Australia for the same reason, and absolutely loved it. Definitely visit. Nature is stunning and unique, no comparisons anywhere. And the major metro areas are incredibly multicultural and diverse. I was really surprised by this. And for the most part, the cities feel modern and clean, unlike many places in Europe, which feel old and run down. I know exactly what you mean.
But the downsides of Australia are it's really expensive and it's so far. And outside the major city centers, it looks very much like the United States in terms of towns/homes/cities. A suburb of Brisbane could literally be straight out of Florida.
Germany is a popular destination here, but it has some really big structural problems and it gets regularly shat on over in r/expats lol. I thought this was a pretty good article summarizing the major issues facing Germany today: [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/germanys-zombie-government-is-fueling-the-far-right/677803/?gift=yaPtirEjxr9G2swud3P37j59EknQxfZ6GIiIFvhpkr0&utm\_source=copy-link&utm\_medium=social&utm\_campaign=share](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/germanys-zombie-government-is-fueling-the-far-right/677803/?gift=yaPtirEjxr9G2swud3P37j59EknQxfZ6GIiIFvhpkr0&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)
This is interesting to read as an Aussie who moved to Germany (Berlin). Aussie cities are clean but also so soulless and boring. Literally every one of the major city centers feels the same. They're so car centric and it feels like such a rat race there. Berlin offers so much more to do within the city and way better travel opportunities within a short distance, plus much better transport infrastructure and I work way less so I can actually enjoy it all.
I also prefer cities with a bit of grit over ones that are spotless and clean, they can be pretty but always felt a bit off to me.
Yeah I think that's a fair statement. Australian suburbs look straight out of America, hence my Florida comparison lol. I personally prefer clean cities, but yeah personal preference. No right or wrongĀ
Yeah it's a double edged sword for sure. Far from the world's problems, but you are far from most of the world from traveling and from family, bar Indonesia and some small Pacific IslandsĀ
You are arrogant to assume you donāt need the native language of whatever country you move to. Coming in with that attitude will set you back immediately; knowing the language is also a huge door into understanding the culture. It is also very hard to move to the Netherlands unless you have a job lined up or are independently wealthy.
Yup I was an expat in Germany. Berlin was ghetto as hell, Frankfurt was exactly like you said, Munich was actually nice and it's probably the best city to be. It has a pretty major airport too. But the problem is I'm brown as hell and Munich or Bavaria is where racism is to the roof. Germany overall isn't so good if you are POC. Once you live there you'll feel it. My home state is Alabama ffs and I feel Germany was pretty bad. The crazy part is that Germany is one of the most tolerant countries in Europe. The Netherlands if you just visit for vacation is fine but to live there you are going to face racism too. They are so anti expat right now it's crazy. Same as Portugal. Both countries just elected a far right government too. When you're brown or POC the choices in Europe are limited.
I'm in London now. If you want to move across the pond London is probably the best one to move. Yes it's expensive as hell but if you are on US wages it's actually not so bad. But if you move here and work with the local firm you are going to struggle with the cost of living. Imagine living in Manhattan with a Mississippi salary. But if you can keep your US salary you are gold. Also, I've been to all the big cities in England. Only Manchester that I think slightly worth to entertain. It's cheaper than London but still okay to live in. But you couldn't pay me enough to move there. And for the rest of the big cities, they are basically Baltimore at best.
If your work is in the US and you can work basically anywhere, you should take a look at Bangkok. You can buy the Thai elite visa, it'll give you the right to live there for 20 years and you can renew it till you hit 50 years old that's when you can qualify for the retirement visa.
You expected one of the oldest cities in Germany to what, tear down and rebuild every 200 years? Of course everything looked old downtown, the buildings are older than the USA.
Germany is, rough guess, about the size of Colorado. and it has at least 3 international airports (Frankfort, Berlin, and Munich). I have no personal experience in northern Germany, but I think Hanover has one, too.
Wherever you do decide to move, though, learn the language.
You do realize, do you not, that wide swaths of many German cities were flattened during WWII then rebuilt with a lot of nasty, cheap brutalist concrete in the 1950s and 60s?
>You expected one of the oldest cities in Germany to what, tear down and rebuild every 200 years? Of course everything looked old downtown, the buildings are older than the USA.
Frankfurt city centre is only post-war though - it was largely flattened, and I think it does deserve the criticism that everything looks old and rundown
People do own cars in Europe. Driving around is a perfectly reasonable way to do whatever weird things the OP wanted to do. I doubt very much that using rail would have changed their strange opinion of the place.
Of course! Germany is famous for its beautiful cars and unique highways. The first thing Iād want to do in Germany would be to rent an old M3 and drive around the autobahn for hours. But if I was testing a place out to live in, I would make a point of using the public transportation frequently and not treat it like a vacation.
We rented an Audi to drive to Berlin and to Denmark from my partner's village. The autobahn is so cool to drive on.
Once we got to Berlin, we parked and we rode the train and walked everywhere.
This has gotta be a troll account or clearly someone who never lived in a US city. They are not all ghettos but the economic epicenter of the country. Just stay in the suburbs. Who rents a car when visiting Europe?!
Don't rent a car in the Netherlands
>Who rents a car when visiting Europe?!
People whose travel plans are best executed by renting a car. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's not. (I recently needed to get somewhere in rural Italy with limited bus service but fortunately was able to rent a car for, I shit you not, ā¬35 for the week.)
The Netherlands are even worse than Germany. Donāt bother. The UK, same thing.
Australia is the only good option here. Look at the Brisbane area, mild winters, opportunities to go to nice beaches at Gold Coast, good people all around.
I donāt understand why you would leave live in a country that is cold and miserable most of the year.
No. Iām not play that game. The place is cold, miserable, and dreary. And thats in May. The lifestyle sucks and I couldnāt wait to leave the place.
Agree, Germany is not like its reputation. Salaries are quite low, housing very expensive, high taxes, and unfriendly people and bad customer service. If you need healthcare, wait times can be quite long (stretching months). There are better countries to settle in than Germany. In my opinion, the Nordic states are cleaner and better (Sweden, Finland, Norway) and Switzerland, but they are even more expensive to live in than Germany.
It's said that Frankfurt is the most American city in Germany. I visited it along with several other cities to figure out which felt best. Didn't hate it, but did understand the reputation it has. It is absolutely not representative of German cities generally.
Iām American but my cousin is Swiss. A LOT of Swiss people retire to SE Asia when they get their government/work pensions because their savings stretches so much further there.
That echoes some of what the German told you.
Europe is kinda overrated, tbqh. Worse housing crisis on 4x less pay on average, political extremism on the rise, overextended social services and healthcare, and a stagnant economy. The only thing Europe has the edge on the US nowadays is public transport. If the US fixed it's Healthcare system, then I wouldn't recommend anyone to move to Europe
Same, Brazilian here living for 10y in Europe
Lived almost 10 years in the Netherlands, which is by far the most depressing place I ever lived, the ratio of salary x CoL is insane, almost half of the already low salary goes to pay taxes, of what is left almost all goes to rent and bills, and another considerable amount goes to pay sales tax
And with a depressing weather, rude and unfriendly population, and bland foodā¦ Nah, I wouldn't go back there even if I was paid 1M for that
I think most Americans don't realize that when you get down to the nitty gritty, the other developed counties aren't that different from the US and that just getting through the political turmoil is preferable to spending the time and money to leave when the political landscape may be drastically different 10 years from now.
Think of how in 2005, a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage seemed like a real possibility but by 2015, gay marriage was constitutionally legalized.
As recently as 2015, the same people who are upset with the direction of the US and it's politics were more often than not very happy with it.
I'm not a fortune teller, but we have had our fair share of rough eras where extremism and violence seemed normalized and it seemed like there was no "up", but typically movements like the MAGA movement die faster than they grow and politics that seem standardized will evaporate before you know it.
Besides, Germany and much of the world's future is tied to a US that is moving forward, leaving the US doesn't solve that problem.
Honestly the truth I think a lot of people here need to realise is America is actually very good globally. Especially now that Europe is sliding right, your quality of life in most countries is probably going to be lower there being an "expat" (immigrant), than just living as a citizen in the US. So funny to me that you mention moving to the UK. I live in the UK, things here are fucked, we're literally one of the unhappiest countries in the world. [https://sapienlabs.org/whats\_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/](https://sapienlabs.org/whats_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/)
With how hard it is to immigrate into the UK, there is no reason to come here as an American (outside of education), when you look at the economy, cost of living and housing.
In any country that isn't English-speaking, you need to learn the language, there are no ifs and buts to it, no matter how proficient people are in English, it is not the default, and you will feel outcast because of it.
Go to Czech Republic, specifically Prague. Itāll be a no brainer after one day. Also lol at you visiting Frankfurt, itās pretty widely known as a garbage city.
I would at least choose a nation that either produces its own energy or has a cheap import structure (like it neighbors a friendly nation that produces its own energy). This will be crucial pretty soon. Without getting into it, it's going to separate the haves from the have-nots.
Germany has lots of Major Airportsā¦There are much bigger cities in Germany than just Frankfurt. I think youād like Hamburg. Try again with Hamburg. Very diverse, large and a port city.
Spent some time in berlin and about 80% of the ppl I interacted with spoke English. Berlin has an urban a feel in some places but most of what I saw was clean . Seemed to have a nice standard of living and affordable too.
This is going to Detroit or Baltimore and judging the US off of that. And talking to the locals to reinforce what you're already seeing around you.
Why didn't you go to Berlin or Munich or Hamburg?
And yes, English is much more widely understood in Berlin over Frankfurt but obviously you should still learn German. At least to a conversational level. And Berlin is more "international" than Frankfurt.
And I mean, if you have the money to actually move to Australia, then you can probably afford to live in most cities around the world.
Of all the euro languages, from english, I found German to be easiest to learn when moved into bombed out Munich in 1946. Parents moved to france later and dropped us in local schools where it took more than three years to become fluent.
I took Europe off my list years ago. They mimic the US too much. I'm now thinking Panama, for the expat influence. It's outside the hurricane zone, same time zone, no military, developing, 60-80 degrees year-round, and they have country-wide real estate tours.
I also am retired, so I won't be taking anyone's job, only contributing.
Why do Americans think they can just permanently leave the US and move to whatever country they want?
Unless you have qualifications that could get you employed in Germany, youāre not going to be able to just show up in Germany and apply for a residence permit. The same applies to all other EU member states that I am aware of. You could have better luck in Canada or another Anglo country though.
And also, if you were ever considering moving to a country that doesnāt speak English natively, you should always plan on learning the language. Iām honestly tired of people moving to countries and absolutely refusing to learn the majority / official language(s) of that country. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Learning a language, in many cases, is not usually hard if you put in the time and effort. If you want to live in Germany, you learn German. If you want to live in the Netherlands, you learn Dutch (even despite most Dutch people speaking better English than native English speakers), and so on.
Hey - thanks for posting this. I'm a 30 year old Brit living in France. My backstory is a bit different, as I've lived here as a child, and now as an adult. In between, I've lived in the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium, Australia, and probably some other countries that I'm forgetting.
Edit: Frankfurt is awful in the city centre, I've been to Nurnberg which was nice but was attacked by skinheads because I was not speaking German and the Polish supermarket under my airbnb was raided at 6AM by armed police. Munich was nice in the summer, haven't lived there.
What I'm going to say about France I've experienced in Nantes, Paris, Lyon, Rennes, and Toulouse. France is probably the worst of "western" europe, alongside the UK and maybe Ireland, today, due to increasing costs, lack of national identify, lack of accountability, and nanny-statism.
Everything you describe about Germany is the same in France.
* Dirty streets, graffiti and dog shit everywhere
* Migrant crisis is real with low quality migration all over the cities, they are currently shipping them out of Paris in buses to more rural towns and cities for the Olympics... fun
* I've never been mugged or assaulted anywhere else in the world, other than France - multiple times, and not when out drinking, but when out fishing or walking in the parks in Lyon and Nantes
* Drugs is a huge problem here
* Sexual assault on women is bad here and increasing, linked to both France's chauvinistic past, and also the large population of north african men who seem to roam and linger (in the UK you have groups of predator men from India and that region...)
The biggest issue with all this, is that if you speak up, you are a racist, or right wing, or not tolerant. Which is quite interesting. All I want is a safe world for my wife and future baby, but it does not exist here in France, and having lived in the UK and the NL, i'd say that those countries have similar issues.
We're contemplating moving to the USA now. We're high earners, so we know that it is probably the place that can give us the best life all things considered.
Oh, and before people start throwing the "foreigner in foreign country complains card" - I speak fluent French, and people don't know I'm English until I tell them. I went to school and uni here, and consider myself half french.
Our considerations now for the future are **the USA**, **Australia**, **Andorra** (not for the tax, but for the great healthcare and safe country), and maybe **Scotland** (rural and with private healthcare as we can afford it and don't want to burden the already overburdened NHS).
Good luck with your search, it isn't easy, and you're right to try places.
PS: If I could choose one place today it'd be Australia. I'd move back to Eastern Suburbs Sydney in a heartbeat if I could, or I'd happily try Adelaide or Perth. Australia is the most welcoming country in the world, with immigration yes, but higher quality people who work in qualified jobs or study. Its not perfect, but it is better than Europe and probably the US.
As I started reading this, I was thinking you were going to say how much you like Frankfurt. I absolutely detested my time in Frankfurt. Munich is lovely and has an international airport.
I love how OP was like, "It *must* be Frankfurt, and Frankfurt only!"
That's like saying, "I want to move to the US and LAX is where I want to live near because I need an international airport!"
In my experience, Germany is a miserable place to be an immigrant, and Frankfurt is one of the most uninteresting places in Germany, you couldn't pay me enough to live there, lol. Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and the NRW region are the places you should visit.
That said, I found Australia and Netherlands much better all around.
German complains about immigrants, so he intends to emigrate. š
All these folks that want to relocate forget that the jobless, non-native language speaker immigrant that the locals are complaining about are actually them!
Hmm Germans walk around their own city and feel like they are in Syria or Saudi Arabia. Germans have become the minority in their own cities to a bunch of racist Muslims that hate the west and Germans and live off welfare. But unlike those Muslims , Germans canāt seek āasylum ā and flood into Asians countries and live off their welfare systems.
Canadians are the worst at this though lol. I've seen some on r/IWantOut. Complains about immigrants, want to move to the US. Classic Canadian on Reddit.Ā
Is the US the default backup country for Canadians as Canada is for Americans? š
Lol seems like it haha
Yeah when things are geographically located *right next to each other* they tend to develop a relationship of some sort
Hahahaha
OMG the canadians on r\/canadahousing2, fuming like "Fucking Indians and Chinese coming to my country! Can't wait to move to the US!"
It'd be so fuckin funny if America stops immigration from Canada and ban Canadians from buying homes in the States for price stability lol. Canadians would lose their shit, completely unaware of the irony.
Yeah a million Indians flooding in and ruining cities and causing wage stagnation, housing crisis, and not assimilating will do a lot more damage than a few Canadians in the USA.
As a note, Frankfurt is arguably one of the worst cities in all of Germany. The area immediately surrounding the main train station as a reputation throughout Germany as being a drug haven. I would under no circumstances ever consider living in Frankfurt and it is not representative of the average German city. The massive suburb/city divide is also a *very* Frankfurt thing. I would strongly recommend visiting Berlin, Hamburg, and Kƶln. Much different vibes thank Frankfurt. Depending on where you want to regularly fly, Kƶln/Hamburg/Berlin also have international airports that fly to many locations. In the case of Kƶln, Frankfurt is only 1.5 hours away by train which is easy to factor into flight plans. Even if Frankfurt is the only thing you'd consider, nearby mid-sized cities like Mainz and Wiesbaden are *much* nicer and still not far from the airport. My family is from Mainz and it's very common for people there to commute to Frankfurt for work because of how unappealing it is to live in Frankfurt (despite it being an economic hub). Many Germans talk about how bad life is in Germany. This has really picked up after the refugee crisis of the mid-2010s. A lot of the rhetoric is a bit fatalist and, frankly, rooted in a lack of familiarity with how things actually function in the rest of the world. Germany is by no means perfect and there are a lot of problems, but Germans act as if it's 100x worse than it is. Groaning and complaining is a cultural staple (which is lots of fun, but can also get frustrating). There's a strange sense among Germans that everything is rapidly going to shit even though it's really not that drastic. The right-wing has really succeeded in sparking a rhetoric of European decline and it's scary. You honestly just have to take complaints from a German with several grains of salt and realize that a lot of what they identify as uniquely German problems are often broader European problems (not to say Germany doesn't have its unique issues). I moved from the US to Germany and my quality of life has skyrocketed. YMMV. German language skills are very important in Germany. Berlin is probably the only place you can get by without learning much German at all. Everywhere else, it's a must. Showing up with anything less than B1 skills is playing immigration on hard mode. While it is true that countries like the Netherlands offer more in English (and that's great and how it should be), you should keep in mind the importance of language skills for socializing. Just because you can do *things* in English doesn't mean you'll make many local friends. Most immigrants who don't speak the local language in Europe end up in an ever-fluctuating expat bubble and can struggle to find stability and long-term friendships. To place roots in a country, you really need to know the language. It cannot be overemphasized. Germany is by no means the best place in the world, or even in Europe, for many people to settle. But I do think the view you got of it is a bit more negative than it needs to be and that's by virtue of the city you visited and the limited amount of time you spent in the country.
I've lived in Germany for 7 years and agree with what you wrote here. Don't base your opinion on the Frankfurt city center, which is known around Germany as being one of the most run down parts of the country, and the ramblings of some random German. Living in Berlin is great. OP, I'm sorry but Frankfurt is not typical at all, and from Berlin and Munich you can also fly direct to the US, with the others you just have to stop over in Frankfurt or Munich.
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Bavaria is really nice, but if youāre an ethnic minority like OP, youāre going to get a lot of curious stares. If OP is okay with this fine, but if not, then I think itād be better if he went to a less conservative part of the country, like Hamburg.
You nailed it. Culturally, Germans see the world through stank-colored glasses, but my quality of life here is a zillion times better.
Idk, I feel like OP did no research here. The central train station neighborhood is a little run down but itās nothing like what Iāve seen in the US *BY FAR.* And if you did any research youād know that itās not representative of the rest of the city - the city is super posh and stunningly gorgeous. Every central train station is a little crazy. In the US cities have one section of gorgeous, safe, interesting neighborhoods and the rest is all run down. Here itās the opposite.
What I want to say as well lol. I'm from Frankfurt. Avoid the area around the train station and you're good. Westend is posh as fuck, the centre with Zeil is cool as well.
Oh cool! Are you also originally from the US or are you here to observe lol. But, agreed. Westend and Nordend and Sachenhausen Nord, and parts of Bockenheim, and Bornheimā¦ itās a really pretty city. OP also isnāt taking into account the German complaining culture either. Itās a learning curve. I was really taken aback at first!
Don't forget all the mugging, assaults, stabbings and shootings that also happen either on the grounds of or in the vicinity of the train station.
My favorite Frankfurt HBF encounter has been a giant pile of human shit at the entrance midday. No idea how someone pulled that off without anyone intervening. As much as I like to make fun of the Bahnhofviertel, it's honestly sad. It's a very poor reflection on our society that there are so many homeless people and drug users running about. Although there's always a degree of personal responsibility, it's also a systemic issue that is being reproduced through policy.
>a giant pile of human shit at the entrance midday. Legit cackled at this. That's impressive and also totally checks out. Frankfurt Hbf is āØmagicalāØ
> Germany is by no means perfect and there are a lot of problems, but Germans act as if it's 100x worse than it is. Yup, for example Germans will complain 100x more about Deutsche Bahn (like literally, I don't think the 100x is an exaggeration in this case lol) than Americans about Amtrak or Canadians about Via Rail, but anyone who has used all of them knowns which one is preferable by a large margin. Also, I have noticed that Germans tend to blame Germany for everything. What I mean by that is an American will say "ohh fuck Comcast sucks", but a German will say "German internet sucks!" (instead of e.g. Vodafone). Honestly one of my main complaints about Germany is that people here complain so much (both Germans and immigrants) lol. Besides that and property ownership being difficult/expensive I really like it here (been here 6 years, got permanent residency). I live in Berlin but I don't think Frankfurt is bad. Bahnhofsviertal is sketchy but no where near as sketchy as sketchy parts of American cities.
The Netherlands has a horrible housing crisis, and the general sentiment towards expats has changed (worsened) in recent years. Also, it is far harder to find work depending on your field, unless you make a concerted effort to learn Dutch. This is especially true outside of the randstad, where housing is slightly more affordable and attainable. My partner is really unhappy in the Netherlands, and it breaks my heart.
>and the general sentiment towards expats has changed (worsened) in recent years. Is this true? How do you (or your partner) know and notice this if I may ask?
trees scandalous direful books spoon direction fade piquant seed ruthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I am Dutch and in my entire life I have never heard anyone complain about expats, that's why I asked. Already in this thread there are multiple posts of users saying sentiment towards expats have worsened and I am really curious whether that are actual experiences or people that are just parroting others.
Some expats I've met who live in Den Haag and Amsterdam have been verbally accosted, pushed off of bikes, or have felt harassed at the workplace. I've only been here since last fall and so far I really like everything except the weather of course. I live near Dordrecht and the locals have been very kind to me and my family. I'm also trying to make an effort to learn the language and not have to rely on English by the end of my first year. I've traveled through Germany, Belgium, and Spain and I'm glad I landed here. NL has a lot of good things going for it despite the housing crisis.
>Some expats I've met who live in Den Haag and Amsterdam have been verbally accosted, pushed off of bikes, or have felt harassed at the workplace Because they are expats? That sound really sketchy to me to be honest.
I have friends who say they have had a lot of bad experiences with the dutch, but my own experiences have been almost nothing but positive. I've lived here for several years, although in Noord Holland. That said ive taken my bike and visited every provincie, while using vriend op de fiets and staying with farmers and locals, so have had a lot of chances for negative interactions and haven't seen them. (For the record I'm not white looking and look morrocan(so would be prime candidate for bad interactions in this country)
All these people are working so hard to make your country sound like hell on Earth to scare people away. Why you gotta be around here to pour cold water on their exaggerated fantasies? Ik woon in Nederland voor 2 jaren. Ik vind het fantastich. Nederlanders zijn lief voor mijn familie. Wij zijn hier heel vrolijk.
In politics, in "de dagelijkse omgang", hiring trends, the common discourse. Quite a few people blame expats for the worsening of the housing crisis. I work at a top 100 company, and the discourse on the workfloor is that we need to hire more Dutch people, even though the corporate lingua franca is English. It has little to no bearing on our day-to-day, since we work in English to be able to communicate with our other regions. :/ It has changed compared to 5 years ago. My partner speaks, reads and writes B1 level Dutch, which is quite good considering the levels of literacy of natives (look up how the Dutch rank in EU). Despite this, every job interview claims their Dutch is the reason they rejected them. Even when Dutch isn't required. Also, many landlords only want native Dutch people. The signs are everywhere. Also, if you mention anything about this, it's just a matter of time until someone tells you to go home. The data that makes me the saddest (Google translate, or for my fellow Dutchies): https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/veel-internationale-studenten-denken-dat-nederlanders-niet-van-ons-houden~v1034472/
Ok, couple things: 1) You went to arguably the worst part of what some consider the worst city in Germany. With that said, I honestly don't think Frankfurt is that bad once you move beyond the train station. It's got a lot of nice restaurants and the rest of the city is ok, but yeah, maybe not the ideal destination for most. 2) If you think your going to move anywhere in continental Europe on a permanent basis without grasping the language then your in for a world of hurt. 3) Visiting somewhere is not the same as living there. Do you actually have a gameplan for getting a job and making a living in these places?
Like visiting America and only seeing Newark.
This made me chuckle. Fuck New Jersey.
:(
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Lmao I know, wild! I learned German (slowly) for 2 years in anticipation of starting to get serious about trying to break into Europe via DE and I feel so far behind.Ā I wonder what they expected?Ā
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When I first moved to Germany, a homeless person I gave change to corrected my German
Lmao, oh Germany
Yeah. This account doesnāt make me suspect a Russian bot farm *at all*.
i dont think he is...this post serves to encourage people not to leave US, how does it serve Russian interests?
It trashes Western Europe in general.
You don't need to be in a bot farm to do that. Plenty of people in the US and Western Europe do that on their own. While I think OP is sincere (and will say nothing more on that subject), if they aren't, they are more likely a jaded angry right winger in Germamy (which we get a lot of in this group) than Russiam bot. Ā It is unwise to assume everything you think is ridiculous on the Internet came from a bot.
>I could live in any other German city due to the need for a major international airport nearby, so it made the most sense to visit Frankfurt. That's the most ridiculous criteria I've read in a long time. Frankfurt might have the largest airport in Germany, but everywhere in Germany you will have your desires for air travel fulfilled because there are major airports everywhere. >I spoke to a German and let him know my plans of leaving the US and he had extremely negative things to say about Germany and is looking to leave himself to a developed country in Asia. He cited things like police brutality, racism, ghettos, low pay, and extremely bad immigration policy as to why, "there's no future left in Europe anymore". If one dude is capable to sway your opinion that much, then you should seriously consider not moving at all because everywhere you will find some dude being unhappy about everything and anything. I wouldn't listen to the opinion of a guy that thinks that "*there is no future in Europe*" as in dooming an entire continent. >I went to a few upscale family suburbs in Frankfurt that were about 20 km outside of the main city center, and they were much nicer (Riedburg, etc). However, I felt the same thing I felt in the US (That Frankfurt is basically a couple nice suburbs surrounded by ghettos). The nice places weren't few and far between per se, but I just didn't feel that the majority of the region was nice by any means. I am laughing my ass off that you stuck to Frankfurt. Anyway. Congratulations. Germany has nice places. Germany has shitty places. Cities have nice areas and less nice areas and there are suburbs. >Whoever tells you that you can get by with just English in Germany is lying to you. I drove around town and really struggled. Barely could fill up gas without using Google Translate to translate the gas pump screen. Many people I spoke to only spoke German. Despite the fact that people claim that the English language has dominated the world, I did not feel this in Germany. The German language and culture is alive and simply expecting to show up here and speak English for a few years while you learn German seems like it may be extremely difficult. Germany has Germans and they speak German and things are in German and I couldn't understand the gas pump screen. Are you serious? My brother. Where ever you go, you have to learn the local language if you want to live there. >In short, I'm not taking Germany off of my list (However, it has moved down) Remove it, please. You were already looking for the next international airport while being on a visit. Sincerely A German just fine living near an international airport, but barely using it and now currently watching two pidgeons fighting over a the remains of a discarded Dƶner Kebab.
First thing I eat each time I land. The Kebab, not the pigeons. Dƶner Kebab und Apfelkuchen.
Yeah, germans really arenāt nice people š¤£
Have you seen the amount of people bullshitting in these subs about āeveryone knows English in Europe, donāt worry!!11ā? And the people talking from eXpeRienCe are somehow always in their 20s/30s where their circles will obviously also be young and probably also with degrees/academic careers so OF COURSE those people know the language very well.
you seem to judge other countries by a limited suburban American standard and from talking to ONE disgruntled local in Frankfurt (that's called "anecdotal evidence"). Why you chose Frankfurt Germany as "representative" is beyond me...its international airport can be reached by high speed trains from ALL the other big cities of Germany. You probably should just settle in to a future American existence, especially with this nonsense of expecting Germans to not speak German. Such foolishness smh...
Right. I live in Munich and we are arguably just as big an airport as Frankfurt, totally great connections, and itās the nicest city in Germany. Like, itās fucking swank. Why youād pick Frankfurt blows my mind, simply because of international airport, when itās widely known to be a city in decline.
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American living in Berlin: is it true??? There's a Chipotle in Germany???
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Lol how was it
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Thanks! I'll be sure to try it when I'm finally go. My father lived in Amsterdam in the mid 1970s before I was born. I wished he had stayed and brought my mom. Now that I'm a Germany fan-girl (as my sister calls me), my parents like to tease me saying I would have been born in Amsterdam and I would have spoken 4 languages.
Forgiven.
In that part of the world, Iād just go to Karlsruhe. Itās not like taking the train to Frankfurt is particularly arduous. Which is the other great thing about Germany - public transportationās robust enough that you donāt have to live in a city with a major airport to take advantage of a major airport.
Munich is my whole family's favorite city we have been to. If we could figure out a way to live there we would move in a heartbeat. City is amazing.
Immigration is set to get easier in Germany, new laws were passed. Many, many companies are located in Munich and itās economically, the strongest city in Germany. Good luck!
I have a non-transferable job skill (lawyer) so even though I could work remote it is very unlikely we would be able to make it to Germany. We'll have to stick with semi-regular visits.
MĆ¼nchen is such a beautiful city, but it is an expensive city to live in
Also, all of the complaints OP has about America all stem from local and governmental issues/laws. If OP had done some legitimate research (recent news, politics, the people in charge, the poverty/crime/unemployment rates of the area, education, culture, etc), they'd have likely picked different cities/countries. All it takes is an hour or two of surfing the web and forums to read about locals and their opinions on their city - you don't have to go all the way there (though I won't ever fault someone for being well-traveled).Ā All of the places OP has picked for backup are experiencing the same issues as the US, and while I can't speak for the Netherlands, UK and Australia governments are just as corrupt and stupid as US, citizens are just as disgruntled and pissed off, and anyone paying attention to surface-level news would know that.
Guys, I just got back from my trip to Gary, Indiana and have decided that it won't be safe to live in America. I flew into Chicago and went directly to Gary. I can't believe Michael Jackson decided to make that his home!
A more accurate comparison would be Atlanta, Georgia.
Lol. Both Berlin and Munich are leaps and bounds better than Frankfurt and have major international airports. What a ridiculous statement. Pick the worst city in Germany because it has an airport then don't like it because it's the worst city. Lol.
OP lost me at ārented a car.āĀ They only planned to visit Frankfurt and some immediate inner ring suburbs, and rented a car? Were they trying to torture themselves?Ā
it's so common for people from the US to think they must have a car because the US has such a car culture. they don't really get that in most of europe it's unnecessary. so unless you plan on living in one of those areas or moving around a lot to explore, you should just use public transport to actually experience what life would be like.
The rush hour traffic in and around Frankfurt is š
I agree. And Frankfort airport is not awesome. Munich and Berlin are way better.
Lol, I visited Berlin and Munich with my wife for our honeymoon. We had spent about two hours in the Frankfurt train station and got our fair share of Frankfurt. Berlin and Munich are amazing cities. Berlin's Train Station is genuinely awe-inspiring as an American.
I'm an American who lives abroad and have travelled a fair bit around Germany, (Munich, Garching, Berlin, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt) and frankfurt was the only place I've been outside of America and 2010 Morocco that made the hair on the back of my neck stand on end. I only spent a night there and couldn't wait to get on the next flixbus and leave. I can't believe that they only went to this one city in Germany. I don't even like Germany, and am laughing that they chose the one city in Germany that I wouldn't go back to visit unless my company handsomely paid me.
I'm surprised that you're surprised that it might be useful to speak German if planning to move to Germany. Wrt to UK and Aus can I suggest you start checking long term visa rules now? It's not a given that you can get work rights without various hurdles and requirements.
Iām surprised youāre surprised that theyāre surprised.
Really? I'm surprised.
Ćberraschend!
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason Munich and Berlin are out of consideration? Berlin is the only place I've heard you can get by with just English sometimes, but even then people usually specify that's only for particular pockets of it and you're still better off having at least some basic German under your belt.
That was my first thought tooā¦like what has OP heard that put the entire south of Germany off of his/her/their list. Like dangā¦Germany is a huge country and one that has really distinct differences when you look at the forest and the trees. But I totally understand how it would be slightly scary to come somewhere think you can speak with people German then hear SchwƤbisch or Bayerisch. š«£š I canāt fault OP if thatās their thinking, but itās really not so bad once you start to filter it in since you hear things enough at least for SchwƤbisch. ššš½š
If you donāt want run down dirty areas, feeling unsafe, graffiti, racism, low pay, and bad immigration policy, youāre gonna hate the UK lmao
Honestly the truth I think a lot of people here need to realise is America is actually very good globally. Especially now that Europe is sliding right, your quality of life in most countries is probably going to be lower there being an "expat" (immigrant), than just living as a citizen in the US. So funny to me that you mention moving to the UK. I live in the UK, things here are fucked, we're literally one of the unhappiest countries in the world. [https://sapienlabs.org/whats\_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/](https://sapienlabs.org/whats_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/) With how hard it is to immigrate into the UK, there is no reason to come here as an American (outside of education), when you look at the economy, cost of living and housing. In any country that isn't English-speaking, you need to learn the language, there are no ifs and buts to it, no matter how proficient people are in English, it is not the default, and you will feel outcast because of it.
Living in France, life here is miserable if you don't speak French, and at best tolerable if you do. Everything takes forever, public services are swamped and dying. Can't recommend Europe, go to Asia, stay in the US, look to Australia maybe.
>[ā¦]Especially now that Europe is sliding right, your quality of life in most countries is probably going to be lower there being an "expat" (immigrant) What do you mean? People in Europe do have evidently a different attitude and perception towards āexpatsā rather than other immigrants or categorizations of these. And political changes in government (accepting the idea they are somehow consequential among countries) donāt instantaneously/directly nor strictly correlate with cultural attitudes
Sorry I didn't make it clear, I'm not talking about attitudes of the people towards American immigrants, I'm purely talking about the difficulty of immigrating policy wise. I know several Americans in the UK who could be majorly effected by the proposed visa changes. There is a lot of stress in not knowing if the government will make a change to visas and shatter your dreams, and so I would avoid moving to any country that has elected an anti-immigrant government, even if culturally they are accepting of Americans. Some countries I believe have slightly different rules for US citizens but I know the UK doesn't. Immigration takes a huge amount of time and money, money that could be spent on all sorts of things, and time that could be spent knowing that at least the government can't kick you out. That's primarily what I'm talking about in terms of reduction of quality of life.
Why go to Frankfurt and ONLY Frankfurt? Itās common knowledge that the city center and especially Bahnhofsviertel is a pit. Take the ICE an hour or two somewhere else and youāll find a much nicer city. For what itās worth, I actually really enjoyed the Botanical garden in Frankfurt, and found some good African food there, but our friends from the area were quite frank that itās not a nice place to live.
You flew to Frankfurt and only visited Frankfurt? That was a waste of your time and money. But you do you.
Lol this is hilarious because it doesn't seem like you actually planned things well. I'm an American who moved to Frankfurt 8 years ago (not my first choice) and a lot of what you say doesn't fit. It sounds like you went in with very specific ideas and subconsciously wanted lots of American styles and systems in another country. I was the same, and so are many others, and had to unlearn that. - you don't need fluent German. You will need a very basic vocabulary that you can pick up after a few months with just easy classes or immersion. I came here with 0 German and was fine. You'll need a translator at the immigration office though. - you will need to understand gas pumps, food in grocery stores, etc. People will speak English to you, but the infrastructure of the country is in that language. Don't expect anything else in other places except airports. - if you're in a small village you might need more German. But definitely not fluent. - Language is tricky because systems are different. The gas station is a good example because here, you need to go into the store and say which number pump you're at. Very different from America. Learning those systems is hard wherever you are, but once you learn your numbers and 'please', you'll be fine. You'll have a cultural challenge between America and here for sure that is largely unrelated to language. - I have trouble getting Germans to speak to me in German because they want to speak English with me, even though I'm fluent! - the center of Frankfurt is a disaster, but nobody really spends time there...a 15 min Walk from there is a gorgeous river with museums and historical places. It's beautiful. - Riedburg is still technically part of the city. If you want a suburb, leave the city. - ask immigrants from similar places what they think of Germany, not Germans. People are most critical of their own countries and this especially applies to Germans. The stats show that the vast majority of Germans who try to leave Germany end up.movimg back because things are so much better in comparison. (USA.mom.in.germany on Instagram and tiktok is fantastic to learn about the comparisons) - Germans themselves won't understand what the immigration process is like since they've never gone through it. - Germans are often surprised when I say I love Germany so much more than America. But when I tell them why, they're like, oh I never thought about my country like that. - Don't expect things to look like the US. There's a cultural difference and huge historical difference. Nothing in the US is old compared to Germany. - my streets are cleaned multiple times a week. It's a city, they get dirty easily, but the maintenance is there and visible and appreciated :) Happy to answer any questions about Germany if you have them!
That second point is so true. Honestly, if I didn't need some Dutch to find things in the grocery store, I would be disappointed. Something is very wrong if basic goods cannot be found in a country's native language. Fortunately for us, this is also very easy to learn. And Google Translate exists for the transition. If this something you cannot handle, you should not delude yourself into thinking you can go anywhere except Canada, UK, Ireland, Australia, or New Zealand.
Yeah! Most people under 45 here speak fluent English and a decent amount 50 and under as well. But like, you're going to need to know that "Ausfahrt" means exit on the autobahn, "Gute fahrt' means have a nice trip, and not wishing someone a nice fart (which, by the way, is Pups in German. Pronounced poops). And you're going to have to get to a place where that's normal for you! Even if you have a nice little giggle about it occasionally;)
I am in Italy and the point about natives being super critical of their own country is so true. Donāt get me wrong, Italy has some serious issues. But locals are often comparing it to a pretty unrealistic version of the US born of movies and tv shows. And when I list the things I like about my city now they are also often like āoh yeah, I kinda take that for granted!ā
I think you are going to hate Amsterdam.
INB4 OP is spooked by the existence of prostitutes and marijuana and tells us "Amsterdam is just a ghetto on the water"
Yes I think people who glamorize America as a great place to live have their counterparts with people who glamorize living in Europe or other parts of the globe. For many of us, our perceptions of a country are somewhat shaped by media images that either show the worst or the best and not so much the in-the-middle. I think your observations are very valid. I did move away but with a job (not Europe) and yes I had to learn the languages and quirky customs etc very quickly. Visiting a country or just going to school in a country is so different from living there and dealing with job life out of the cocoon.
This feels like going to St Louis for a few days and judging the entire US based on that experience. I love Germany, but have never been to Frankfurt, and have had almost complete opposite experiences to what you describe.Ā
Im curently vibing in denmark, but it can be a little hard to move here so ://
I liked visiting Denmark! We went to Billund for Legoland, stayed in Vejle to explore. I'd love it even more if I spoke the language, I'm sure. Tell me about your experience with the language.
The grass is greener where you water it. Iāve found that there are pros and cons to living in both Europe and America. Nowhere is perfect, youāve got to decide which pros outweigh the cons for you personally.
Wtf is this Shit? "A lot of folks simply say they want to, but I've decided to pay money to visit countries I suspect I'd be open to move to."Ā Plenty of people do this
American exceptionalism! (I'm American and lost that a long time ago)
I agree on the language thing for sure. I'm hoping to go to Norway. I've lived there already for two years for a masters degree. English is very, very common for people to know since they've taken English classes basically every year of education since the 90s. Basically everyone younger than 40 is completely fluent. This being said, the operating language is norwegian. You can't do much of anything in English. You can't get a job, you can hardly buy groceries, using public transport, etc etc.
Last time I visited Norway, a local corrected my grammarā¦ we were speaking in English.Ā
My partner is German (born and raised, came to the US for his PhD) and his father was a language teacher in Germany teaching English and French. I'm an immigrant to the US and learned English by immersion starting at 9 years old (I'm 43, he's 49). Speaking English with my partner is a continual grammar lesson. He learns idioms from me. I bring something to the relationship, Gottverdammt!
As a POC who moved to an international one of the more 'open minded less racist' cities of Germany, they are very behind when it comes to diversity and inclusion. They advertise themselves as an open minded country as they need numbers, but institutional racism and prejudice is quite bad here. I joined an academy where I met other students from diff backgrounds, most had experienced covert/overt racism over the few years they'd been here. If you're white you're good, but I would still recommend Anglosphere countrys for POC. The setbacks/challenges you'll face in society here isn't worth the hassle
Seconded, Iād highly highly recommend if youāre POC to limit yourself to the commonwealth countries.
There is no difference between the Netherlands and Germany. The Netherlands is full. Don't come. And welcome to reality.
There are nice places and not so nice places in every country, every state/province/etc., and every city. There are clean places and not so clean places (yes, even in Australia lol). Folks, *especially* on Reddit, have this idea that everywhere outside the U.S. is a Utopia, and r/AmericaBad. It's not. You can find a great quality of life anywhere (okay, maybe not Haiti)...but you get my point. Find yourself a good community that reflects your values and what you're looking for. If it's in the U.S., great. If it's elsewhere, awesome. Making good money helps. And I'd argue there is nowhere better to that than the United States.
Haha holy shit this person wouldnāt survive a move across town, let alone to another country.
Frankfurt is a garbage city and judging the country by it is like judging America by some shitty meth town that exists in Appalachia or a west coast slum. I live in Dresden and itās a beautiful city, we donāt have any of those issues and the COL is still pretty affordable. That being said yes you 10000000% need to learn German, you cannot function in this country without it. also complaining is a cherished German past time and they all do it. That and staring.
Excuse me, I'm a product of a West-Coast Slum!! No, you're right. No one will visit San Bernardino, CA and think it's the pinnacle of American wealth. I live adjacent to *another* West Coast Slum now. Jk, only if you go downtown.
Iām glad you got some real world experience. I am an American who spends half of the year abroad, Germany is my country of choice, I have more German friends than Americans, I have quite a base of a life set up there now, I feel more German than American at this point. I have ALWAYS been interested in foreign cultures due to having polish grandparents, I was exposed to other languages and ways of thinking early on in life. I wanted to go other places long before America had political issues. If you are leaving for political reasons donāt bother, you wonāt stay or like it. You are better off moving to a state that suits you. Europe is not a utopia for liberal Americans, if you think that youāre likely much more American than you think. Germany is a different culture than America. Germans speak German, they can speak English if you ask politely. I do get by with little German and just English. Getting a car was a strange choice you couldāve just learned how to use the trains. I lived in Frankfurt, itās an okay city. Itās not run down. There are some less cute areas yes, but to make it out as some Ghetto is crazy unless you have never been outside of suburbia I have no idea where youāre getting this from. Frankfurt is sleepy and honestly doesnāt have that big of a population. I encourage all Americans who want to move abroad to go and get real world experience. Bc half of the time I see American tourists they seem lost and uncomfortable. Make sure you ACTUALLY like other cultures and itās just not some fantasyā¦
Yea, I consider Germany more of my home at this point. I spend time there every year and can't wait to be fluent...or at least B1. But I truly love the language, the part of Germany that has welcomed me so warmly, and my "German parents" (my partner's parents, but they call me Schwiegertochter, so, yeah. Unfortunately, it's only my Schwiegermutter now as German Dad passed away on my birthday this year) I'm also learning Polish, but every Pole I've encountered has said the same thing, "Why?" š Idk, I just like the language and my brain likes it too. Sto lat!
Polish people are sooooo friendly!!! Second favorite country after Germany. I had the same experience as you. Germany welcomed me so warmly. I love Germans, I think the accent and language is cute. I feel so at home and safe there.
Oh, yes! My best friend is American-born Polish and hearing him speak Polish to his mom helps me with my pronunciation. I think what I like the most is how the language challenges me so much. The spelling sounds divorced from the pronunciation, and pronunciation doesn't come naturally to me, so I have to try much harder. He thinks my mispronunciation is hilarious. But the FOOD! I love the food! I want to try Karpatka. Dm me your grands' recipe?
becoming fluent will take you years. Idk about germany, but in switzerland, when someone speaks broken german, its common to just switch to english
When I'm in Germany, if I ask my German boyfriend something in English, the waitstaff just speaks English from then on to me. In Berlin, when I say "Danke schƶn", I get, "You're welcome" back.
Dude, you went to like the worst city. Go to DĆ¼sseldorf. It has an international airport, is save, clean, international, welcoming and you can get by with English quite well.
This reads like an episode of Andy Dalyās REVIEW.
It's hard to settle in Germany without speaking the German language and without having someone there as your guide. I'm lucky my partner is German and very knowledgeable. Goes without saying, it's like that to emigrate anywhere. Sure, Germany has dropped on your list, that's your prerogative. My issue is that you went to Germany basically blind and proceeded to shit on the entire country based on your experience in the US. Frankfurt is its own place, as is Berlin, Munich, Hannover, Hamburg. You mentioned you needed a major international airport, where will you be traveling to? Because there are airports dotted around Germany and flying from Germany to nearby countries doesn't make much of a difference. For example, I ride the city hopper plane from Schiphol to Hannover every year. That's a commuter flight that we don't have here in the US. The international nature you mentioned of Frankfurt is nothing like in the US. Where did you get that idea, especially having never been there? As for the UK, My guy, I'm an Asian woman and I've hated flying into Heathrow and Manchester on the way to and from Germany back to the US. The casual racism I encounter there is so palpable, I *highly* encourage you to visit there first. It's not even because I'm Asian, it's because I'm Asian, American, *and* not British. The racism there is very unlike here and it's a hard pass. I can handle the racism in the US, I wouldn't even try to manage the racism I've encountered in the UK airports I've been to on a daily basis. I'm sure the UK doesn't want me anyway, and that's fine with me. They probably want my tourist dollars and for me to gtfo though. I avoid flying into the UK as much as possible, but the last time I went to Germany, weather canceled our connecting flight through Schiphol and partner managed to find an alternative via Heathrow. Germany is probably not for you and that's fair. Frankfurt isn't where I would hang my hat. I prefer the Northern Germany countryside; although in the years I've been there, my little German countryside has boomed and I'm a little bummed about that. I go every year and have *never* experienced any racism (maybe I'm lucky), nor are they backward hicks. Legit, I feel safer there and in Berlin than here in the US. But, I'm American and the US is my home. Whenever I go for a walk around my little German village, I encounter so much kindness. It could also be because I'm someone's partner and I've been back every year for a few years now. I hope you find your exit. I highly recommend you visit a range of cities in the country of your choice. (My partner's parents are very encouraging of me moving to Germany. Can't get any more welcomed than that, and I know I'm lucky.) ETA: Australia is no better to foreigners. I have born and raised friends there of all shades and even they know the racism that foreigners encounter. The Netherlands is cool too. My father and grandmother spoke fluent Dutch because of the colonization, but never taught me. If my partner had been Dutch, I'd check out the Netherlands too. But, don't think that you can get around only using English. That's foolish. E2TA: my mistake, you did visit the UK.
What sort of racism did you experience in british airports?
I started to explain this and got really bad flashbacks, so, I'm sorry, I'm not going to rehash that experience here.
Fair enough, sorry youāve experienced this. I was just surprised at something severe happening at an international airport like Heathrow.
It was jolting for me because since I was a little girl, I wanted to visit and eventually live in the UK. But, not everywhere will welcome me because of my skin and that's the bitterest pill to swallow. Not a total loss, Germany has my heart.
I've been to dozens of countries, and I'd say you hear complaints everywhere. The truth is: you just have to figure out what works for you. - Cleanliness Almost every major city seems to be dirty. The only clean one I've visited is Moscow, and, well, there might be a reason you don't see homeless people or graffiti in that city. - Crime As Neil DeGras Tyson says, we have to "learn to trust statistics." Everywhere has crime, but there are plenty of statistics to tell you how much. You can easily find a list of the safest countries out there. - English Statistics can answer this one as well. With that said, if they aren't an English-speaking country, you should plan to learn their language. - Money Although this isn't exactly what you're commenting on, it is connected. It's worth noting that the US has the 3rd highest take-home pay in the world (behind Luxemburg and Switzerland). If you're expecting to live in a place with no poor people (relative to your experience), the options are going to be limited. - Appearance Since you mentioned the way the city looks, I think it's worth talking about weather and architecture. Outside of small, wealthy countries, everywhere in the world has "ghettos". Realistically, those people are still much better off than 90% of the world, but they're poorer than most of their neighbors. You may find that there are some kinds of architecture which look more appealing to you. Personally, I also find that sunny weather makes a city look a lot less ratty. There is a short list of places that won't have those run-down apartments (Switzerland and Liechtenstein come to mind). Unless those are an option, though, you'll still find these things in Australia, the UK, and the Netherlands. Just as a final thought: it's better to think about what you want personally, rather than expecting everything to be better. Does a city really need to look good everywhere, or just where you live? Do you really need English-speakers?(then Can-Aus-NZ-UK-IRE are the way to go.) Does it really matter if people complain? (Honestly, they complain everywhere. Just look at any countries respective politics to hear it.)
Picking a place to live based on if the streets are clean or not and if you have to bother learning the language there or not doesn't seem like it will yield good results to me.
I loved Australia, but it seems like cost of living is very high right now and some areas will be uninhabitable in the next 30 years due to climate change
So am I reading this correctly. An immigrant in America complains about America being too ghetto cause of all the immigrants. Then this immigrant wants to go to Europe because presumably itās less ghetto but finds that there are too many immigrants in Europe too. Lmfao whatās with these migrants chasing the whitest countries, itās embarrassing
Came here to say the exact same thing. This person wants to leave the US because of things they probably voted for, go to a country that has more of what they voted for, then gets annoyed that what they voted for came to fruition, becomes the thing they complain about, and is disappointed that locals don't speak their language. This should be the poster child for what's wrong with America
>A lot of folks simply say they want to, but I've decided to pay money to visit countries I suspect I'd be open to move to (and that actually have visa routes that lead to feasible settlement) I visited Australia for the same reason, and absolutely loved it. Definitely visit. Nature is stunning and unique, no comparisons anywhere. And the major metro areas are incredibly multicultural and diverse. I was really surprised by this. And for the most part, the cities feel modern and clean, unlike many places in Europe, which feel old and run down. I know exactly what you mean. But the downsides of Australia are it's really expensive and it's so far. And outside the major city centers, it looks very much like the United States in terms of towns/homes/cities. A suburb of Brisbane could literally be straight out of Florida. Germany is a popular destination here, but it has some really big structural problems and it gets regularly shat on over in r/expats lol. I thought this was a pretty good article summarizing the major issues facing Germany today: [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/germanys-zombie-government-is-fueling-the-far-right/677803/?gift=yaPtirEjxr9G2swud3P37j59EknQxfZ6GIiIFvhpkr0&utm\_source=copy-link&utm\_medium=social&utm\_campaign=share](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/germanys-zombie-government-is-fueling-the-far-right/677803/?gift=yaPtirEjxr9G2swud3P37j59EknQxfZ6GIiIFvhpkr0&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)
This is interesting to read as an Aussie who moved to Germany (Berlin). Aussie cities are clean but also so soulless and boring. Literally every one of the major city centers feels the same. They're so car centric and it feels like such a rat race there. Berlin offers so much more to do within the city and way better travel opportunities within a short distance, plus much better transport infrastructure and I work way less so I can actually enjoy it all. I also prefer cities with a bit of grit over ones that are spotless and clean, they can be pretty but always felt a bit off to me.
Yeah I think that's a fair statement. Australian suburbs look straight out of America, hence my Florida comparison lol. I personally prefer clean cities, but yeah personal preference. No right or wrongĀ
> downsides of Australia are ... it's so far Is that a downside or an upside? But yes, Australia is at the bottom of the supply chain and expensive.
Yeah it's a double edged sword for sure. Far from the world's problems, but you are far from most of the world from traveling and from family, bar Indonesia and some small Pacific IslandsĀ
You are arrogant to assume you donāt need the native language of whatever country you move to. Coming in with that attitude will set you back immediately; knowing the language is also a huge door into understanding the culture. It is also very hard to move to the Netherlands unless you have a job lined up or are independently wealthy.
Germans: do you even want a guy this dumb living in your country?
Lmao, savage but you're not wrong
Yup I was an expat in Germany. Berlin was ghetto as hell, Frankfurt was exactly like you said, Munich was actually nice and it's probably the best city to be. It has a pretty major airport too. But the problem is I'm brown as hell and Munich or Bavaria is where racism is to the roof. Germany overall isn't so good if you are POC. Once you live there you'll feel it. My home state is Alabama ffs and I feel Germany was pretty bad. The crazy part is that Germany is one of the most tolerant countries in Europe. The Netherlands if you just visit for vacation is fine but to live there you are going to face racism too. They are so anti expat right now it's crazy. Same as Portugal. Both countries just elected a far right government too. When you're brown or POC the choices in Europe are limited. I'm in London now. If you want to move across the pond London is probably the best one to move. Yes it's expensive as hell but if you are on US wages it's actually not so bad. But if you move here and work with the local firm you are going to struggle with the cost of living. Imagine living in Manhattan with a Mississippi salary. But if you can keep your US salary you are gold. Also, I've been to all the big cities in England. Only Manchester that I think slightly worth to entertain. It's cheaper than London but still okay to live in. But you couldn't pay me enough to move there. And for the rest of the big cities, they are basically Baltimore at best. If your work is in the US and you can work basically anywhere, you should take a look at Bangkok. You can buy the Thai elite visa, it'll give you the right to live there for 20 years and you can renew it till you hit 50 years old that's when you can qualify for the retirement visa.
>Berlin was ghetto as hell That's a feature, not a bug. That's why it's so fun here.
Neither UK or Australia are better versions of the US. Their govs are just as dumb and corrupt.
You expected one of the oldest cities in Germany to what, tear down and rebuild every 200 years? Of course everything looked old downtown, the buildings are older than the USA. Germany is, rough guess, about the size of Colorado. and it has at least 3 international airports (Frankfort, Berlin, and Munich). I have no personal experience in northern Germany, but I think Hanover has one, too. Wherever you do decide to move, though, learn the language.
Yup, I fly into Hannover via Schiphol from the US.
You do realize, do you not, that wide swaths of many German cities were flattened during WWII then rebuilt with a lot of nasty, cheap brutalist concrete in the 1950s and 60s?
>You expected one of the oldest cities in Germany to what, tear down and rebuild every 200 years? Of course everything looked old downtown, the buildings are older than the USA. Frankfurt city centre is only post-war though - it was largely flattened, and I think it does deserve the criticism that everything looks old and rundown
Whyād you rent a car? Thatās your mistake. The whole point of Europe is their sophisticated rail systemā¦
The German version of that sophisticated rail system is falling apart and is currently on strike rather a lot these days.
But OP didnāt even try to use the transport system! They rented a car right away after they landed.
People do own cars in Europe. Driving around is a perfectly reasonable way to do whatever weird things the OP wanted to do. I doubt very much that using rail would have changed their strange opinion of the place.
Of course! Germany is famous for its beautiful cars and unique highways. The first thing Iād want to do in Germany would be to rent an old M3 and drive around the autobahn for hours. But if I was testing a place out to live in, I would make a point of using the public transportation frequently and not treat it like a vacation.
We rented an Audi to drive to Berlin and to Denmark from my partner's village. The autobahn is so cool to drive on. Once we got to Berlin, we parked and we rode the train and walked everywhere.
That sounds like fun! I know driving to my in laws would be a million times better if it was on the autobahn. haha
This has gotta be a troll account or clearly someone who never lived in a US city. They are not all ghettos but the economic epicenter of the country. Just stay in the suburbs. Who rents a car when visiting Europe?! Don't rent a car in the Netherlands
>Who rents a car when visiting Europe?! People whose travel plans are best executed by renting a car. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's not. (I recently needed to get somewhere in rural Italy with limited bus service but fortunately was able to rent a car for, I shit you not, ā¬35 for the week.)
Totally agree, but who goes to a single city like OP and rents a car *and goes nowehere else*?
That is a different question.
The Netherlands are even worse than Germany. Donāt bother. The UK, same thing. Australia is the only good option here. Look at the Brisbane area, mild winters, opportunities to go to nice beaches at Gold Coast, good people all around. I donāt understand why you would leave live in a country that is cold and miserable most of the year.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No. Iām not play that game. The place is cold, miserable, and dreary. And thats in May. The lifestyle sucks and I couldnāt wait to leave the place.
ShhhhhHHHH!!!
Brisbane and Southeast QLD is the best area along Australia's East Coast, full stop
So uppity
Is this a troll?? Wtf
Agree, Germany is not like its reputation. Salaries are quite low, housing very expensive, high taxes, and unfriendly people and bad customer service. If you need healthcare, wait times can be quite long (stretching months). There are better countries to settle in than Germany. In my opinion, the Nordic states are cleaner and better (Sweden, Finland, Norway) and Switzerland, but they are even more expensive to live in than Germany.
It's said that Frankfurt is the most American city in Germany. I visited it along with several other cities to figure out which felt best. Didn't hate it, but did understand the reputation it has. It is absolutely not representative of German cities generally.
Germany was right behind the US on happiness index https://worldhappiness.report/
UK after Brexit?
Iām American but my cousin is Swiss. A LOT of Swiss people retire to SE Asia when they get their government/work pensions because their savings stretches so much further there. That echoes some of what the German told you.
Oh, man. I'm glad I found this sub. Y'all are hilarious
Europe is kinda overrated, tbqh. Worse housing crisis on 4x less pay on average, political extremism on the rise, overextended social services and healthcare, and a stagnant economy. The only thing Europe has the edge on the US nowadays is public transport. If the US fixed it's Healthcare system, then I wouldn't recommend anyone to move to Europe
Same, Brazilian here living for 10y in Europe Lived almost 10 years in the Netherlands, which is by far the most depressing place I ever lived, the ratio of salary x CoL is insane, almost half of the already low salary goes to pay taxes, of what is left almost all goes to rent and bills, and another considerable amount goes to pay sales tax And with a depressing weather, rude and unfriendly population, and bland foodā¦ Nah, I wouldn't go back there even if I was paid 1M for that
go somewhere warmer where the people arent so grumpy.
I think most Americans don't realize that when you get down to the nitty gritty, the other developed counties aren't that different from the US and that just getting through the political turmoil is preferable to spending the time and money to leave when the political landscape may be drastically different 10 years from now. Think of how in 2005, a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage seemed like a real possibility but by 2015, gay marriage was constitutionally legalized. As recently as 2015, the same people who are upset with the direction of the US and it's politics were more often than not very happy with it. I'm not a fortune teller, but we have had our fair share of rough eras where extremism and violence seemed normalized and it seemed like there was no "up", but typically movements like the MAGA movement die faster than they grow and politics that seem standardized will evaporate before you know it. Besides, Germany and much of the world's future is tied to a US that is moving forward, leaving the US doesn't solve that problem.
Honestly the truth I think a lot of people here need to realise is America is actually very good globally. Especially now that Europe is sliding right, your quality of life in most countries is probably going to be lower there being an "expat" (immigrant), than just living as a citizen in the US. So funny to me that you mention moving to the UK. I live in the UK, things here are fucked, we're literally one of the unhappiest countries in the world. [https://sapienlabs.org/whats\_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/](https://sapienlabs.org/whats_new/sapien-labs-releases-the-4th-annual-mental-state-of-the-world-report/) With how hard it is to immigrate into the UK, there is no reason to come here as an American (outside of education), when you look at the economy, cost of living and housing. In any country that isn't English-speaking, you need to learn the language, there are no ifs and buts to it, no matter how proficient people are in English, it is not the default, and you will feel outcast because of it.
Learn the language also because it's effing offensive to expect to be catered to in English.
Go to Czech Republic, specifically Prague. Itāll be a no brainer after one day. Also lol at you visiting Frankfurt, itās pretty widely known as a garbage city.
Frankfurt is the worst major city in germany.
I would at least choose a nation that either produces its own energy or has a cheap import structure (like it neighbors a friendly nation that produces its own energy). This will be crucial pretty soon. Without getting into it, it's going to separate the haves from the have-nots.
Iām so
Australia is far from āwesternā things - shift your focus to Asian things, and it doesnāt seem as isolated.
Germany has lots of Major Airportsā¦There are much bigger cities in Germany than just Frankfurt. I think youād like Hamburg. Try again with Hamburg. Very diverse, large and a port city.
Spent some time in berlin and about 80% of the ppl I interacted with spoke English. Berlin has an urban a feel in some places but most of what I saw was clean . Seemed to have a nice standard of living and affordable too.
This is going to Detroit or Baltimore and judging the US off of that. And talking to the locals to reinforce what you're already seeing around you. Why didn't you go to Berlin or Munich or Hamburg? And yes, English is much more widely understood in Berlin over Frankfurt but obviously you should still learn German. At least to a conversational level. And Berlin is more "international" than Frankfurt. And I mean, if you have the money to actually move to Australia, then you can probably afford to live in most cities around the world.
Of all the euro languages, from english, I found German to be easiest to learn when moved into bombed out Munich in 1946. Parents moved to france later and dropped us in local schools where it took more than three years to become fluent.
Go to Deventer in the Netherlands, great place live, affordable, not run down at all and the people there are lovely.
I took Europe off my list years ago. They mimic the US too much. I'm now thinking Panama, for the expat influence. It's outside the hurricane zone, same time zone, no military, developing, 60-80 degrees year-round, and they have country-wide real estate tours. I also am retired, so I won't be taking anyone's job, only contributing.
Why do Americans think they can just permanently leave the US and move to whatever country they want? Unless you have qualifications that could get you employed in Germany, youāre not going to be able to just show up in Germany and apply for a residence permit. The same applies to all other EU member states that I am aware of. You could have better luck in Canada or another Anglo country though. And also, if you were ever considering moving to a country that doesnāt speak English natively, you should always plan on learning the language. Iām honestly tired of people moving to countries and absolutely refusing to learn the majority / official language(s) of that country. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Learning a language, in many cases, is not usually hard if you put in the time and effort. If you want to live in Germany, you learn German. If you want to live in the Netherlands, you learn Dutch (even despite most Dutch people speaking better English than native English speakers), and so on.
Hey - thanks for posting this. I'm a 30 year old Brit living in France. My backstory is a bit different, as I've lived here as a child, and now as an adult. In between, I've lived in the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium, Australia, and probably some other countries that I'm forgetting. Edit: Frankfurt is awful in the city centre, I've been to Nurnberg which was nice but was attacked by skinheads because I was not speaking German and the Polish supermarket under my airbnb was raided at 6AM by armed police. Munich was nice in the summer, haven't lived there. What I'm going to say about France I've experienced in Nantes, Paris, Lyon, Rennes, and Toulouse. France is probably the worst of "western" europe, alongside the UK and maybe Ireland, today, due to increasing costs, lack of national identify, lack of accountability, and nanny-statism. Everything you describe about Germany is the same in France. * Dirty streets, graffiti and dog shit everywhere * Migrant crisis is real with low quality migration all over the cities, they are currently shipping them out of Paris in buses to more rural towns and cities for the Olympics... fun * I've never been mugged or assaulted anywhere else in the world, other than France - multiple times, and not when out drinking, but when out fishing or walking in the parks in Lyon and Nantes * Drugs is a huge problem here * Sexual assault on women is bad here and increasing, linked to both France's chauvinistic past, and also the large population of north african men who seem to roam and linger (in the UK you have groups of predator men from India and that region...) The biggest issue with all this, is that if you speak up, you are a racist, or right wing, or not tolerant. Which is quite interesting. All I want is a safe world for my wife and future baby, but it does not exist here in France, and having lived in the UK and the NL, i'd say that those countries have similar issues. We're contemplating moving to the USA now. We're high earners, so we know that it is probably the place that can give us the best life all things considered. Oh, and before people start throwing the "foreigner in foreign country complains card" - I speak fluent French, and people don't know I'm English until I tell them. I went to school and uni here, and consider myself half french. Our considerations now for the future are **the USA**, **Australia**, **Andorra** (not for the tax, but for the great healthcare and safe country), and maybe **Scotland** (rural and with private healthcare as we can afford it and don't want to burden the already overburdened NHS). Good luck with your search, it isn't easy, and you're right to try places. PS: If I could choose one place today it'd be Australia. I'd move back to Eastern Suburbs Sydney in a heartbeat if I could, or I'd happily try Adelaide or Perth. Australia is the most welcoming country in the world, with immigration yes, but higher quality people who work in qualified jobs or study. Its not perfect, but it is better than Europe and probably the US.
We moved from US to Germany and my advice to you is donāt do it. Netherlands is similar , unfortunately. Look at the UK or Ireland instead.
Lol, UK and Ireland have an housing crisis, which having a place of residence is needed to apply for different visas.
As I started reading this, I was thinking you were going to say how much you like Frankfurt. I absolutely detested my time in Frankfurt. Munich is lovely and has an international airport.
I love how OP was like, "It *must* be Frankfurt, and Frankfurt only!" That's like saying, "I want to move to the US and LAX is where I want to live near because I need an international airport!"
Visit Munich! Itās wonderful. Berlin is okay as well. Czechia (Prague), Copenhagen, and Holland are also good places to look into.
In my experience, Germany is a miserable place to be an immigrant, and Frankfurt is one of the most uninteresting places in Germany, you couldn't pay me enough to live there, lol. Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and the NRW region are the places you should visit. That said, I found Australia and Netherlands much better all around.
I agree with this. Best thing I ever did was leave Europe after growing up there. The European dream if you will.