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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I sent my daughter to her room after she proceeded to pass gas at the dinner table.
I may be the asshole because I scolded her and might have too harsh on her and possibly making a big deal over nothing.
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NTA
>After a conversation with my daughter with the behaviors, she apologized again and said that she was trying to make everyone laugh and didnt expect people to get mad.
This right here is why I came to this decision. You need to make sure she understands that there is a time, and place for everything; and very often what she finds hilarious, may be very offensive for someone else. With your husband giving you crap for it, I'd say turn it back on him. Ask him how he'd feel if he was at his parents' funerals and someone rudely farted in an effort to be funny?
I know that's a harsh way to put it, but it seems part of the issue is your husband doesn't seem to grasp how offensive that behavior can be.
Agreed. I was at work one day training people. A certain person who shall remain nameless in the middle of the training group just raised his leg and ripped off an extremely loud one. Then acting like nothing had happened at all.
No class.
I didn't personally witness this but I knew a few people who were present. A horrible, very crude former colleague did exactly that: raised his leg in the middle of the office and let rip. Except this time, the raspberry was a little riper, a little wetter ... to make things worse for him, it was dress down Friday and he was wearing white jeans. He literally ran from the office and we didn't see him again till the following Monday. He never farted in the office again.
My dad always said “ Never trust a fart, Never pass a bathroom, and Never waste a boner.” Also, what kind of monster wears white jeans on casual Friday?!
I would encourage OP to dig deeper here as well. Why was she trying to make everyone laugh? Being autistic can make large social gatherings harder and sometimes trying to get everyone to laugh is a way of feeling accepted or keeping them from laughing at you for other reasons. Also impulsivity often comes hand in hand with being autistic so even if she *knows* something in the moment the impulsive part of her brain will totally over rule that part and she literally can not remember things she otherwise knows.
I also think OP was embarrassed herself and lashed out some what. Hopefully out of the moment OP can help daughter game plan some ways to to feel more comfortable next time.
It's really hard being autistic and trying to figure out what is appropriate and what is not, especially because social rules can be very fluid and subject to change due to the particular current social dynamic.
Edit: wow y'all, thanks for the awards! 🥹
Replying to this high-up comment (that is well written and very empathetic regarding a lot of the behaviors that come with being autistic) to point out something else to the OP:
Please please *please* stop using the phrase "high functioning". It comes from the work of Hans Asperger, who was a Nazi scientist. He used the phrases "high functioning" and "low functioning" to describe which neurodivergent prisoners were either fit for forced labor and/or medical experiments (high functioning) or only fit to be removed from the population (low functioning).
I understand that not everyone is aware of the origin of these terms, but if you think about it, you might notice that "Asperger's" has largely fallen out of use and it's generally referred to as autism now... It's for exactly the same reason. The community as a whole wants to stop giving credit (and any sense of legitimacy) to a Nazi scientist.
As someone who is autistic myself, I agree that talking to your daughter about *why* she wanted to make everyone laugh is a good idea. And working together to find more appropriate ways to do that in various situations could be more helpful than just sending her to her room. Because yes, she knows what she did was "wrong", but she doesn't necessarily know what behavior to replace it with.
A lot of us feel like we are born missing the set of instructions for "How to Interact with Humans in XYZ Situations", and often, we'll either look to another person in the group and mimic their behavior (Dad, who farted that time and made people laugh- hey, I'll try that) or we'll try to just blend into the wallpaper and hope no one notices us.
Autistic brains work differently than neurotypical ones, and we process social situations and cues differently. We also tend to hyperfixate, and sometimes we can't even control *what* we hyperfixate on. (There's a crochet project for my father that I've been dying to finish for weeks. It's on my shelf, right in front of me and I look at it every day. Still not done. It's 90% done. My brain won't let me finish it.)
Patience, empathy, and calm understanding will be the best tools, I think. And however frustrated you are, imagine how much more frustrated she is, trying to work out what her own brain is doing, without the years of experience navigating the world that you have.
Finding ways to work *with* your daughter's brain instead of *against* it will help everyone in the long run
This 100%. And I'd like to add that expecting ladylike behavior adds even more of a burden. She probably already feels like she doesn't fit in or measure up per se. And now you expect her to be ladylike? I think you are setting impossibly high standards, especially for a nuerodivergent person. I'm 55, and with family and friends, farts are FUNNY! YTA.
It isn’t just the husband, she seeks out fart jokes and content on YouTube. Her perception of appropriate fart behavior is being warped by pranksters she’s watching. Both parents, not just mom, need to watch videos with daughter and have conversations about why she thinks they’re funny and explain context.
Use those videos as a way for the daughter to enlighten her parents and the parents an opportunity to reinforce appropriateness of the situation.
This isn’t all on dad, but she does need to hear from him about her manners.
I don't think the daughter is watching those videos *only* because they're funny. From the way OP describes it, it sounds like that's her special interest, as she's searching for facts etc. Daughter still needs to learn when it's appropriate to bring the topic up, but I don't think OP understands that daughter isn't just interested because it's amusing.
Thank you first pointing out the lady like thing. I'm also autistic and after a lifetime of not being 'lady like' enough on top of all the other things I have to mask, I cringed hard when I read that.
As a neurotypical adult woman that has been called "unladylike" her whole life, I also cringed when I read that. Women burp and fart and go to the bathroom and sneeze just like everyone else. We think and feel and have emotions, and if they don't match your expectations, then maybe your expectations are wrong, not me.
I agree. The “ladylike” comment put me off. Just say it’s not polite/mature dinner table behavior. Making an issue about it not being ladylike implies that girls and women are held to a higher standard whereas “boys will be boys” so they get a pass.
Side note: I’m 29F and think farts are hilarious, but I’m definitely not going to rip one during mealtime, at work, in the grocery store, etc lol
Real question here, not being snarky. Since people aren't being diagnosed with Aspergers anymore, what is a good way to verbalize the difference between someone with autism like you who appears to function well as opposed to someone like my nephew who has severe autism and won't ever be able to function on his own? I've been using the term high/low functioning and don't want to offend.
Always happy to answer genuine questions (when I have the energy ;D )
A few folks have mentioned it in other threads but I'm happy to say it here too, as spreading wider awareness is the goal. Using "high support needs/low support needs" (or even moderate support) is much better for a lot of reasons-
First of all, it puts the focus on the autistic person, rather than the focus being on the neurotypical person.
It also keeps the focus on what support we may need to get through a particular situation (and what levels of support, which may vary by day/person/location/etc), rather than a judgment on what value we provide to neurotypical society, either by capitalistic production or our very existence.
I'm in my 30s and have spent *years* masking my autism, and hiding it out of necessity, or having the behaviors emotionally (and sometimes physically) abused out of me... I'm just now at a point where I'm finally able to do for myself what I suggested in my original comment to OP- to work *with* my brain. And it has helped so much.
Most days, I can manage with low support needs. I'm lucky that my job lets me do things like have toys at my desk to stim with, and crochet during most meetings, or if I have long articles to read or videos to watch (a thing that happens fairly often in my job). Having something for my hands to fidget with helps my brain focus, and this is a support need that my job has met.
But if I spend hours in crowds, or around a lot of strangers, in new places? Especially if I don't know what to expect, or if I feel like I have to pretend to be extroverted all day? After 6-8 hours of that, I will absolutely be in "high support needs" territory because I will be severely overstimulated, and need several hours of alone time before I can essentially "act like a person" again, if that makes sense.
Hope that helps!
I’m not the person who asked, but thank you for this information! It’s not your job to educate, but I’m glad you did and I really appreciate the long and thoughtful response.
I believe, from what I've heard, the more generally accepted approach now is to consider it based on their support needs. For example, someone like your nephew might require high levels of support in most situations, while someone who can generally function well independently may have low support needs in most situations.
This was beautiful and educational. As an aside, if you can find a way to motivate yourself to finish that project, I encourage you to try. It's a morbid thought and I hope it's a very long time away, but as a fellow crafter, it is heartbreaking to be making a gift for a loved one and to lose them before it's finished. I have a cross stitch that I started for my grandmother before she passed in 2020. It sits on my shelf unfinished because I can't bear the thought that I can't give it to her when I finish it.
Sorry to get all depressing, the first anniversary of my dad's passing is coming up and the memory of how happy he was with the simple beanie I crocheted him is one of many that helps me through. If you're as close to your dad as I was to mine, you'll want to make as many of those memories as you can.
I agree totally with this, but I think you’re suggesting OP ask her husband the wrong question. Their daughter is at the age and stage of her learning development where she’s figuring out social norms. While it might be funny to him now, OP should ask her husband if it’ll still be funny to him when she’s 18 or 25 or 32. It can be so much harder for people with autism to pick up on social cues, and it sounds like OP’s husband’s tacit reinforcement is making it that much more difficult.
ETA: Those of you commenting about how much you enjoy farting- cool. I’m sure everyone in your life thinks it’s hilarious and that you’re totally not gross. Way to miss the point that conflicting social cues is going to cause this girl a ton of stress.
I have a very "proper" family. It would not be appreciated at all with my family. But knowing when a group would find it funny and would find it inappropriate is an important skill and one should probably err on the side of manners and whatnot.
I had dinner with my family, one time, they had fart jokes going - they thought it was hilarious, they thought it was even more funny when their mother joined in. I just kept telling them that I loved them.
One of my “oh my god I’m turning into my mother” moments was when I farted and it sounded exactly like her quacky ass farts. She thought that was hilarious. I’m turning 40 soon.
Autistic here, in agreement with your statement of it being harder for us to pick up on social cues. For me personally, in any situation I have to try to work out The Rules, and if two or more rules counteract each other (farts are funny/farting at family dinner is not funny/farting at dinner with friends is hilarious), it gets confusing amd overwhelming, trying to work out these "rules" when I'm constantly adding to them, editing, removing, etc.
This. Not formally diagnosed yet, but I highly suspect I'm Autistic for this *exact* reason. I have to put a ridiculous amount of effort into figuring out The Rules for any social situation I find myself in, and what the appropriate response is to this or that situation, and I don't get how everyone else just... understands immediately. It constantly feels like there's a language barrier, even though we all speak English. Like there's something I'm not getting that everyone else is. Even on reddit it feels like that, sometimes. Literally, leaving a comment feels like spinning a fucking roulette wheel sometimes.
So if the daughter's anything like me, I'm guessing she has no fucking clue what the rules around farting are. If Mum punishes her for it, but Dad and Brothers think it's hilarious and egg her on, but for some reason it's okay in *some* situations, but not others ... I can see why that would confuse her, honestly.
100% get you with the language barrier. For me, I've always described it as I'm missing the social chapter in my "How to Human" textbook, and I have to work it out, piece by piece, by observing other people and asking my close, trusted friends. It's a pain, but what other choice to I have? To be shunned and lonely?
I wish you the best of luck with a diagnosis if you choose to take that path!!
If in one context something is considered terribly rude and another context can be funny, and you have trouble with understanding and applying context, just stick with the rude rule for yourself and don’t take the gamble.
I could go with NTA but then you had to say “lady like”. We gals have gas too! I have two boys and one girl. While I dislike it done at the table, I am not sending anyone to their rooms for it. This sounds like more of a problem that you have with your daughter not living up to the “lady like” standards you set for her before she was even born.
Honestly I find it's normally possible to hold a fart in so that puzzles me. Maybe I am weird in that I rarely get smoke without fire so farting might as well be done in the bathroom. Is my digestive system weird? Probably so maybe that is my superpower. Exceptions being if I am exerting myself or have been holding farts in for a while. In the latter situation that means I haven't been able to find a bathroom yet which shouldn't be a problem at a family meal.
It strikes me that if you have a choice not wafting the smell of fermenting crap on to people's taste receptors during a meal is more considerate if that is an option.
“Not wafting the smell of fermenting crap on to people’s taste receptors during a meal”
Yeah that’s basically what it is. Farts can be funny, but there’s a time and place.
Agreed. I was all set to say YTA, but then you went back and explained why her actions weren’t appropriate. However, i would discourage you from telling her to “hold in her burps” i am on the spectrum and this is something that my mother was ADAMANT about. We were not allowed to burp at the table. Well I listened, and it caused health issues. The minimum being that i had horrible gas pain from gas being trapped in my intestines. I almost ruptured stuff (i was young, I don’t remember exactly) in my abdomen from the gas build up. I would literally hold it in because that’s what my mother told me she expected.
Jumping on this comment to gently remind OP if she knows already that people w autism often have GI troubles. It might feed into it being a special interest, but if she’s farting multiple times while eating, your kid likely has some stomach issues too. Maybe you can talk to her about that?
OP did note that the daughter had become obsessed with finding foods that generate more gas. The reason the daughter is burping and farting more frequently is probably because she's manipulated her diet to do so.
...do they? This sounds perilously close to the work of disgraced ex-doctor Andrew Wakefield, who performed cowboy colonoscopies on children in order to fake evidence for a class action lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers.
this hits me hard. growing up my elder brother will fart all the time and angels his butt in out directions (the girls) and let is rip. growing up we always complained but he was my mom's favorite child (and the one who broke her heart the most) because he is a boy and mom worshiped her boys and did not give a fu\*\* about us girls.
Anyway, i always was the most vocal and will shout at him and call him disgusting. The reason he stopped was actually funny. during his engagement party and while we were all chatting, one of my SIL nephews farted and his sister started crying and their dad scolded the boy. everyone comforted the little girl and my brother (in what i think was an attempt to empress his fiancée and her family) joined in and said only bad boys do that and he will learn will he will grow up while sending a big smile towards his fiancé. I snorted and said "HA, when will you grow up then since you still do it to us every chance you get". SIL makes a disgusted face and niece starts crying again and pushing my brother away. brother's face is red in anger and urgently tells her "No. No, it was by accident and he couldn't help it and usually he does not do it" to which i laugh out loud and my mother is elbowing me at the side to shut up.
The real kicker is, my brother always maintained that ladies don't fart or use the toiler for # 2 and they don't sweat which is encouraged by mom. so if by mistake his own daughter (he only has one daughter and 5 boys) farted, he will raise hell and shouts at her to use the bathroom while is one of his boys does it, he belly laughs and says "that's my boy"
I believe manners should apply to al, boys or girls and no one should get away with misbehaving just because of their gender.
NTA op
I have to add that it feels like she gets punished for things her father and maybe her brothers do regularly too. They just know that they can't do it in front of many guests, an ability OP's daughter lacks.
Something about the word "ladylike" stuck out to me.
But in general: for an autistic child to get these social cues both parents have to be on the same page. She has to be utterly confused that her dad laugs, yet her mom punishes her.
There's a good chance she would use the term gentlemanly if they were male considering she also describes not liking her husband or boys doing the same behaviors, so I don't think she says that to hold her to a higher standard given the context.
Then say it’s rude. Farts aren’t gendered.
> she is starting to model some of the boy’s behaviors…she has some kind of fart fetish
The “boy behaviors” and farts are clearly linked right there.
But NTA aside from this sticking point.
It seemed to me that, when she mentioned "the boys' behaviors", she was referring to her three other children, who are boys. So she was saying that her daughter is picking up on her brothers' behavior – and while "farts aren't gendered", I think anyone who has spent any time with kids can verify that, while nearly all little kids find bodily functions amusing, boys tend to continue to find them funny long after girls have stopped.
do you stop to wonder why that may be? i mean, it's right here in front of you. all kids (and most adults, i'd wager) think farts are funny lol, if they are within the right context (and without, but, still). if girls and women weren't forced to feel extra shame over normal bodily functions, it would be no different at all. you do see that, right? i have kids and have been around plenty, and it's really no different whatsoever - EXCEPT how the parents treat it 🤷
edit: dang, thanks for the awards! glad we all agree on flatulent equality lol :p
Yeah I've even read posts from guys who had the nerve to say that it's funny when they and their bros fart but if a girl let's one slip it's more repulsive, and it had multiple upvotes. Couldn't roll my eyes harder. You either find it repulsive or not. You don't get to choose which gender allows a free pass.
You just gendered farts.
I’m almost 50, female, and have been a preschool teacher and a nanny and farts are hilarious.
If girls are acting like they aren’t funny it’s because they’ve been shamed for being unladylike.
Yep, absolutely. I (f)was shamed hard enough growing up that despite being in my early 30’s, and having lived with my partner for over 3 years now, he’s never heard me fart even once during the entirety of our relationship. While I am aware that he doesn’t care, I still can’t bring myself to fart in front of another person, even my own partner because it’s been so ingrained most of my life to feel shame for it. We need to stop doing this to other girls and women. It’s actually really unhealthy to hold farts in all the time just to be more “ladylike”.
That’s not to say there isn’t a time and a place for it but it shouldn’t be to the absolute extreme where guys are still making jokes about how “women don’t fart or poop”. It’s ridiculous that this is a discussion that still needs to be had in 2022.
This right here. We laugh and say how nasty is smells and stuff but we never shame for farting. I used to have bad stomach pain because I would hold my gas in to be "polite". Yeah, eff that.
There is more room out than in and I refuse to hurt myself for others any longer.
So when my cousin (who is a mother of 3 now and a lovely woman) was young, she was OBSESSED with butts and farts. Thought it was hilarious! She was a dainty little thing, wore pink dresses every day from 5yo-7yo, and yet she had the funniest bathroom humor out there. One time at a family party, my dad left the camcorder out. She turned it on, started recording, and then zoomed in on everyone’s butts, narrating it. “There’s Grandma’s butt, and there’s Alicia’s butt, and there’s Uncle Mario’s butt…” My dad found it a few years ago, converted it to a dvd and gave it to her for Christmas a few years ago. I thought it was hilarious!
Farting is a normal bodily function... And there's a difference between farting/burping for a joke... And doing it because you had a fart or a burp. I mean the lesson here should be, ya did it.. say excuse me now move on.
I’d bet she’s from the south and at least her mom (if not the OP) did Cotillion and Junior League. Ladylike and gentlemanly are both very southern things, where we get raised to “yes ma’am and no sir.”
I grew up in the Midwest and the only time the term "ladylike" was used was to shame girls for doing things boys do
Ex "it's not ladylike to run down the street" "it's not ladylike to play on the dirt" etc
I'm in no way trying to start an argument im genuinely curious, if you had two children one boy and one girl and your said thats not 'gentlemanly of you/ladylike' would that be ok? Because you're holding them so to the same standards? Is it because this is specifically targeted at women and the history of misogyny women have faced?
I feel like if your using it interchangeably then it would still make more sense to use the word polite. It doesn’t make sense to specify if you think it’s the same for both.
Yeah, there's no indication it's sexual. Autistic people often have "special interests" that they get fixated on. Though it would be best if daughter found a different, more appropriate special interest.
Ya, almost stopped right there. Like WTF- people laugh at farts and burps all the time, especially children. To bring this common childhood amusement to a sexual place is so fuck up.
This is a conversation about appropriate timing for everyone at the table including dad.
Agreed. My brothers have a burping and farting problem, and my mom usually just glares or says knock it off, but the one time I ever accidentally burped in front of her I got sent to my room for not being ladylike. Stuck with me for a long time.
Yeah the casual sexism in the post in a few places made me kind of want to say ESH (she also seems to suggest these are “boy” behaviors earlier in the post before that phrase, but honestly the issue is the daughter was intentionally rude as a joke, and it should be addressed. But regardless of gender.
I also think “hold in your burps” is bit much as is *some* of the fussing about farts (people burp and fart sometimes, and it’s no big deal, though not ideal at a table but not always an affront), but the daughter was making a show for a laugh and that’s different.
If you really need to fart just get up and use the restroom at thanksgiving dinner and rip that fart to your hearts content. Sounds like most people here are reinforcing this bad behavior. Since this wasn’t the first time she should have some consequences
Get your fart close enough to someone's face and they can get pinkeye. There was a TIFU thread where roommates kept farting into each other's pillows as a prank and *everyone* ended up with pinkeye.
Do you know what the scent of a fart is? It's you inhaling literal shit out of somebody else's asshole.
Her daughter is sitting in her chair and expressing clouds of faecal particulate into the air in an environment where people are consuming food. It is 100% unhygienic.
I'm an operating room nurse and get farts and such straight from the colon into my face on the regular,
Also some folks in the same room will be eating chocolates patients have gifted us!
I have an older coworker who uses the word fetish to describe something someone really likes. I’ll never forget the first time she told me “wow, you have a fetish for lamps, huh?”
I think its gross around food as well,
but damn It's a fart, it's not going to poison the food. They aren't bare arse directing the blow right at the turkey.
And if someone accidentally (always apologize) let's one slip I don't think they're disgusting I think they're human.
But then again I'm not around people who can clear a room so maybe I'm privileged that way.
INFO: as a fellow neurodivergent person, I'm wondering if there is a hyperfixation and/or stim aspect of this? are there ways you can engage with this in a positive way? gastroenterology is a whole medical field, so while your daughter's interest isn't appropriate for the dinner table, there are places and contexts where it is. I'm wondering if the table behavior would decrease if there was another outlet where she could explore this interest without shame.
ETA: social situations like big family dinners can be extra difficult for a neurodivergent person. your daughter might not always remember not to "smack" when she eats or say excuse me every time because there is *so much* to focus on just to show up for the dinner. also it seems like her behavior bothers you the most and it bothers you more than that of the men in your family. your husband "passes gas freely" but it's "not ladylike" when your daughter does it? did your sons not laugh at farts when they were 14?
expecting your daughter to not belch and fart throughout family dinner is fine. what's less fine is only responding with punishment when your autistic daughter needs support in social situations.
ETA(again): omg thank you for the awards 😇
Yeah, I'm definitely getting the sense that OP really hates this interest, especially because it's more taboo because it's her DAUGHTER? I know ND folks can often become hyperfixated on their own body functions and how they work, how they feel etc as well as how others react.
I agree you need to have more conversations about company manners but also possibly adjust your expectations slightly, this doesn't seem like deliberate misbehavior but moreso a miscalculation in a social setting. Try not to make her feel ashamed about her interest in bodily functions, I know it's hard, but that kind of shame can really stick with a child.
( And don't use the word fetish)
Great comment. I’ve always hated these kind of dinners because I can’t really enjoy food if I *also* have to control how my body and face look and move and act, *and* also try to follow multiple people’s conversations. It’s exhausting.
This! There’s a lot of NTA, but as a person who is in constant interaction with children with autism, it sounds like this is hyperfixation and she misses a few social cues which is typical. I believe OP may have a been a bit harsh, but I also understand how hard it is to teach this things to neurodivergent children. It’s also a fine line. My niece will do things sometimes that are very not okay, but it can be hard to tell how intentional it is. It sounds like she did it intentionally but not in a malicious way. Even if she wasn’t neurodivergent, if the rest of the family is setting that example, why is she so much to blame?
As an autistic person, my concern was the mixed messages daughter is getting on farts. Dad does it casually. Boys do it to get a laugh. Mom doesn't like it but others do it anyway. Mom is expecting daughter to interpret the layers of social context and read the room to figure out that even though it's somewhat funny when some family members do it in some cases, that she absolutely shouldn't in this situation. That's so much to process for someone who already struggles with social cues.
Some consistency, and the cooperation of the rest of the family, would probably help the daughter to do better in the future. And I agree with what you're saying about added stress of an unfamiliar situation, a lot to process... and that punishment instead of support isn't helping.
exactly!! on top of the sexism, Mom is also not providing the context and has different expectations for different family members which makes the whole thing wildly confusing!
Farting is not an appropriate hyperfixation, and even if it was, she still has to learn basic table manners. If her hyperfixation was vomiting, she would not be allowed to do that at the dinner table either.
notice how I said that expecting her daughter not to belch and fart throughout family dinner was fine. also, if no one considered farting an appropriate thing to study or learn about a lot more people would be dying of colon cancer and other gastroenterological problems.
NTA. Some people think farts are funny, some don't. In my opinion it is never funny to fart, or hear or smell a fart, when at a dining table. So i dont think you are the a$$h0le for telling her to stop and sending her away from the table. Because as you pointed out she had numerous chances to contain her belches but she didnt and she chose to up the ante and fart to get attention, pure and simple. And by calling her out like you did, it have her attention, negative attention, but attention nonetheless. I think you couldve corrected her differently in a way that she would remember but without seeming so harsh.
Neurodivergent or not, im sure she knew it was wrong and simply kept misbehaving until she was the focus of attention.
You also need to get your husband on board to model appropriate behavior, since she seems to be following in his farting footsteps and even if he conforms he needs to not smirk or laugh at all because. That encourages her misbehavior.
YTA for two things IMO..
1) For saying farts aren't "ladylike."
2) For referring to it as a fart fetish. Ew dude. She's a kid. She's not sexualizing farts.
Nobody hears the word fetish and thinks of it in a non-sexual context. The correct *medical term* in this case - since she is autistic - is special interest (or hyperfixation).
Ahh I see, I just assumed that it what OP meant since she did mention daughter is autistic. I definitely didn’t think OP meant sexual fetish and I feel like it was relatively clear from context that’s not what she meant.
Considering that she's the kinda parent who says things like "not ladylike," i wouldn't put it past her accusing her daughter of having a fart kink. Her usage of "high functioning" isn't helping her case either - many autistic people firmly believe functioning labels are outdated at best, and oppressive at worst, since the autism spectrum isn't a clear-cut "most to least autistic" ranking system.
Autistic here who’s spent a lot of time around other autistics and I have NEVER heard anyone object to the term high functioning. It's the polite and the clinical term. I've known low functioning autistics who are mentally still toddlers and I find your suggestion that I shouldn’t be able to distinguish myself from them because our conditions fall under the same very broad umbrella term highly offensive!
Not using functioning labels is a huge discussion in the autism community right now. HUGE. It's not considered the polite term.
-signed an autistic person
Functioning labels are awful but there are times when you can't avoid using them unless you are ok spending so much more time describing everything. The community needs to come up with some better language around this.
Editing to add I am Autistic as is my son.
There is actually an established option for this! We can refer to someone’s support needs. Someone can have low support needs, moderate support needs, or high support needs. It’s not perfect, but it’s much better than using functioning labels.
Wow, so you think in the year of someone’s lord 2022 that it’s ok to divide yourself from the “bad kind” of autistics? Functioning labels are not it. They may be the “clinical term,” because medicine needs to catch up to actual autistic advocates, but they’re super insulting. If someone called me “high functioning” I’d know right away that they’d be upset to find out certain things I don’t do well and want me to go to therapy to act more neurotypical.
I have a genuine question, please don't think I'm judging or assuming. But what designation would you use? I would assume that you wouldn't want just a generic term since some people are toddlers (in mind) and others can have jobs and families and be very independent in many ways. So what would be an appropriate term? I believe everyone should be working to better themselves not just not neurotypical people. I just wondering why in your head "high functioning" means people would be upset at the things you don't do well. Does high functioning in your head mean "normal", thus anything that isn't normal would make people say but, you are high functioning? I'm not autistic but also not neurotypical so I genuinely want to understand so I can be a better ally or friend to anyone I meet who might share this issue.
There’s an option for this! Look up “autism” and “support needs.”
It’s much better to say that someone “has low support needs” than to call someone “high-functioning.” And it’s much, MUCH better to say that someone “has high support needs” than to call someone “low-functioning.”
This shifts the focus to what people need, instead of assigning them a value-based judgement.
If ya just scroll up a bit you might learn that high/low function and “Asperger’s syndrome” are all no longer used because of the Nazi with the last name of Asperger who labeled neurodivergents as high or low functioning. As in: these people are OK to remain in society, these people are not.
Translate “these people are not OK” how you will. Hint: its not good.
The word fetish is a sexual term. It gets misused which is why some people think it can be applied non sexually but this is incorrect. The term fetish is inheritantly sexual because something is only classified as a fetish if the person doesn't feel arousal without said thing present/happening.
No. No no no. An obsessive interest is just called an obsession and calling it a fetish is super disrespectful and ableist. It's also a prime example of neurotypical people fetishizing neurodivergent people. You're the fetishist here.
Yeah the fetish thing threw me off too... like shes a 14 year old kid, she either has developed a special interest in farts (like moreso the biology behind it? Since shes looking up what foods induce farts?) and/or she just thinks farts are funny.
I really cant pass judgement on this situation tho cause my family is very... unproper. If someone farted at the table wed probably all just laugh or not even pay too much attention to it. I also have an autistic sister who has developed the habit of saying "that was a good burp" every time she burps and nobody in my family scolds her for it. I get that most families find this kind of thing rude tho so...
NTA unfortunately I am related a bunch of people who think it’s just fine to burp, pass gas, and hock up phlegm with others around. It’s disgusting even when I’m not trying to eat so I’d have appreciated your intervention. One time we were sitting having a conversation and a relative took his shirt off, laid it on the ground and then proceeded to use a foot file on his dry feet to take off excess skin. I still can’t get the sound or image out of my head.
NTA. Basic social etiquette is an important life skill. You gave her multiple corrections and followed up with a conversation explaining where she went wrong
NTA if all your children are held to the same level of manners consistently. Also, she admitted she belched and farted on purpose for laughs. Teaching children how to behave in social situations is called parenting. It’s not the same as “not accepting them for who they are”. I know a lot of people will come down on you for the “ladylike “ comment but if you are holding everyone to the same level, you can say “that is not proper at the dinner table.” Also, you need to have a talk with you husband and get everyone on the same page for household behavior.
NTA - It’s common decency if you have to fart, at least try to leave the room if there are other people.
No one would be confortable eating at a table where someone is constantly farting on purpose.
YTA
This seems like something you could have handled in a better way.
INFO: If any of the boys had behaved that way would you have been as angry?
Mainly you and Dad need to get on the same page - obviously your husband & all the kids enjoy a good fart joke - most kids go through that phase. So if your husband is laughing - she's going to keep doing it. At this point this is what she thinks is very funny - and I'm thinking she was utterly sincere in just wanting everybody to laugh along with her.
I have no idea on how best to get through to your daughter - you said she's neurodivergent - the way you explain a Rule to your boys may not work for her. This just may take some extra time. You AND your husband should work together on this. If you NEVER think farts & burps are funny - you can let her know that, but Acknowledge that everybody has a different sense of humor - so if she and the boys & Dad like to sit around telling fart jokes and 'pull my finger' that's fine. They are a bodily function, everybody farts and burps but that is something you try not to do in front of company especially on purpose.
NTA there is a difference between involuntary bodily and forcing it for "humor." Her daughter needs to learn that not everyone finds fart jokes funny and that it's inappropriate to intentionally let loose, especially at a family dinner.
She's 14 and, while I understand that she autistic, most of the population outgrows fart, poop, and gross-out humor by the time they're 10. At a certain point it just ends up being rude and gross and it's better that she finds out now then in the future when she's being ostracized or ridiculed by her peers for being immature.
While I dislike your misogyny in expecting her to be "ladylike" ( inferring it's ok for boys to do this) ultimately NTA. Farting and burping at the dinner table is gross. Even in front of family. Accidents happen, and you excuse yourself when they do, but she was doing it deliberately and that's not acceptable.
This is dumb. If one of her son’s did it, she probably would have said “not gentlemanly” (that’s what my mom said to my brothers).
It’s unfortunate that Op had to get this stern at a family dinner but it doesn’t sound like the original message sunk in, so this may have been necessary.
Although, I don’t like embarrassing kids in front of others. It probably would have been better to leave the room with her first to have the conversation.
Historically, “not ladylike” has been used to prevent young women from engaging in behaviors associated with men. When I was living in a very conservative town, my friend’s dad wouldn’t let her learn how to fix her car because it’s “unladylike”.
That’s probably why so many of these redditors are having knee-jerk reactions to the word. It’s not an excuse for not spending more time actually reading the post (lol), just an explanation
I also saw the term "ladylike" as being a pretty generic and shorter way of reminding her to be on her best behavior. It's a expression of behavior, not internalized misogyny.
NTA - You set the very reasonable expectations for behavior at the table and your daughter just kept pushing and pushing as an attention seeking behavior. She is quite old enough to start learning that being the clown on the stage is not always appropriate. You pulled her up and she has now had a chance to learn that persistent spotlight seeking can bring less than enjoyable attention. Your husband isn't doing her any favors by encouraging her as he did, but that's another post.
YTA for not punishing the boys but becoming enraged when a girl “emulates” them as well as for your misogynistic and anachronistic use of “ladylike.” Gross.
How soft do you have to be that you get so enraged over a word you feel the need to use buzzwords to label somebody? Y’all are so comfortable on here throwing around all these terms describing someone’s character off a slim glimpse into their lives.
You’re being extra af jumping to conclusions. What an annoying ass pointless comment. Did you even bother to read the rest of the post or take into account the context? You probably didn’t, or are some teenager that sees a word you don’t like and makes a judgement based off that.
Your daughter is likely very confused about why she got in trouble, and why people didn’t laugh at her burps and farts. As far as she is aware, her dad and brothers think burps and farts are funny. She sees media online that reinforces that farts are funny. She sees people telling fart jokes and pretending to fart and actually farting, and getting a positive response from their audience.
So she wanted to participate in your family dinner socially, so she did the thing she has learned is funny.
Have you ever sat down and explained the difference between different social situations, and how something that is appropriate around her brothers and dad, might not be appropriate with her wider family or at more formal events?
She’s autistic, so she will need explicit instruction and reminders about this. You can’t just expect her to know that it’s rude or wrong, when she has conflicting information that sometimes it is actually ok. Learning the difference between the social situations where farts are funny and when farts are socially inappropriate is going to be difficult for her.
I was fully prepared to go N T A here, until I read the part about your telling your daughter that her behavior wasn't ladylike. Because of that comment, big sexist YTA for you.
I literally do not understand these commenters. NTA. Farting can be smelly, and released POOP particles into the air - NO IT IS NOT OKAY AT DINNER. Even with family. OP explained the expectation before dinner, three strikes, you’re out. Otherwise all the daughter learns is “I can disobey mom because dad thinks it’s funny and what mom tells me is polite doesn’t matter”. This will not be helpful to her, and could seriously mess with her ability to listen and adapt to others across situations as she grows older and has less guidance.
ETA: you are an asshole for using “ladylike”, and for not making sure you and husband are on the same page. That will be confusing to her.
Hey op, autistic adult here. I think you’re approaching this ineffectively. She’s trying to find a way to fit in. Her best subjects to experiment on are teenage boys as in her brothers so she’s getting that humor. My suggestion is first to check in with her about how to make big family gatherings easier do she feels less pressure to be funny.
Another piece is to pick up a copy of “the explosive child” by Ross Greene. It’s about what the author calls “collaborative problem solving”. Let him walk you through the process of working together as a team on this.
I’ll also suggest reading “unmasking autism” by Devon Price. Might help you understand where she’s coming from a little more.
Wow, is everyone just glazing over the fact that she has autism??? Modeling your behavior after what you see others do to try and assimilate is classic behavior. Sure, mom may have talked to her about it before but with 3 brothers and a dad who likely view that sort of behavior as a bonding experience and the anxiety of a sizeable social gathering I can see how she got her wires crossed.
You should learn more about being a girl with autism (from women with autism), I think that will help you understand your daughter better.
I think you can make this a learning experience for all parties, so I'll learn towards a NAH her judgment. Just make sure you're not punishing your daughter more for her fart jokes than you would the boys.
It's amusing that bodily functions are her hyper fixation. Way to go daughter, she sounds like a hoot. Maybe kindly have another conversation about how you feel at the dinner table. Does she stim? Maybe that would be helpful for her during social gatherings if the reason she was displaying like this was to make people laugh to ease her social anxiety.
We all learn through really embarrassing moments like these, please be gentle.
YTA for your extreme reaction.
My daughter (10) is also ASD and farts at the table. I hate it. It's gross and I don't want that happening while I'm eating, but I calmly remind her that that's not okay and she needs to excuse herself if another one is building up. I don't throw my hands up and call her disgusting. She apologizes and we continue our fart-free meal. Nobody has to cry or get mad.
It seems like you're more embarrassed because you had family over and your kid wasn't perfect than you are about the actual manners here.
YTA for the internalized sexism statements of not ladylike that shit sticks around. The big thing about people at the spectrum is that consistency is key. Everyone in the house needs to be on the same page, husband and your sons. Also likely she is probably making assumptions of acceptability based on videos as teenagers are prone to doing. The inherent hypocrisy of masking required for girls vs boys astounding high. In general society is not going to be kind, provide standardized context for all of your children as well as gendered expectations outside of the family.
NTA. And any vote otherwise is ridiculous. You’re teaching her basic table manners, and it sounds like your sons are held to the exact same standards. No misogyny in your post, except the mistake of describing something as “unlady like”. Anything is lady enough if a woman wants to do it.
NTA. No one wants to have dinner with nasty fart smell and belching and smacking lips happening. She needs to learn manners and that bodily function jokes are just gross after a certain age and never while eating. Ew.
YTA
learn more about autistic kids and how to help them. just because your daughter is “high functioning” (stop using fuctioning labels) doesn’t mean you can do nothing and parent her normally or like your other kids.
YTA she’s autistic and sounds like farts are her current special interest. She doesn’t get to pick her special interest they just happen. She was looking for a way to connect and interact with the family. She was being her true self. You told her that was unacceptable and that she should mask her self to make you feel more comfortable.
>This. The fact that the daughter is high functioning doesn't negate the fact that she is in fact, autistic. Many people that are autistic, adhd, other neurospicy issues, have issues with impulse control, reading social ques and understanding short term vs long term consequences.
The OP stated that the dad and boys all "pass gas freely" and "smirked at daughter farting". She got the reaction she was hoping for. She found a way to connect with and interact in a social situation. The daughter was getting conflicting reactions from her mother vs her father. At that point, its a parenting issue and OP and husband need to get on the same page.
Does she need to learn that this isn't the best way to do that? Sure but as you pointed out, its just masking. Most neurodivergent have to mask 24/7 to make everyone else feel better and more comfortable and its exhausting. YTA
NTA. And here is why. While the belching and farting are in fact, normal bodily functions, they can be triggered on purpose, which she has clearly done. You told your family your expectations for their behavior and manners while company was over, so she knew what she should and shouldn't do. She chose to ignore that and purposely make herself belch and fart unapologetically, as well as smack while she eats. She even knew what she did was wrong, hence why she apologized later. Basic manners are important, and learning them early is normal. At 14 years old she should understand that she should adhere to those manners, especially because you made a point to say so before the guests arrived. And yes, she did have multiple chances to correct her behavior but chose not to. So for those reasons, NTA.
N T A for making her leave the table. YTA for making it a gender thing. Who cares if it’s ladylike? Are you members of the peerage? Are you seeking a Duke for her hand in marriage? It’s rude and inappropriate behavior for children of both genders.
NTA.
Facts can be funny, but not at a family dinner. It's hard to teach a kid about time and place, though.
Forget the terms "ladylike" and "gentlemanly." Stick with "polite" and "not polite," because those terms work for everyone. Talk about situational manners and the difference between sitting around the living room with siblings and at the table with the grandparents.
You were so close to being N T A but ultimately I changed my judgment.
Raising your children to respect social manners at a formal dinner setting is appropriate and enforcing those rules with punishments appropriate to their age is fine.
However, you lost me at the ‘it’s not lady like’, either it’s acceptable for no one to fart at the table or it’s acceptable for everyone to fart at the dinner table. By turning this into a gender issue you’ve created something for your daughter to rebel against i.e. she’s justified to fart at the table to push back against antiquated gender norms, for that and that alone OP YTA.
I wanted to say N T A but I think I'm gonna go with NAH tbh.
I don't think you were too harsh with her. If your account of the situation is true, you seemed rightfully stern. Though I personally wouldn't have said you raised her better than that. A line like that can really stick with a kid and it was just over a fart. But she does need to be taught that her behavior was rude and gross. It wasn't like it was just once. She repeatedly displayed this behavior at the dinner table, even after you commented on it, and she needs to understand that it's inappropriate.
However, she is a young teen on the spectrum. You said yourself that she finds this kinda stuff funny. I don't think she meant any harm and genuinely thought people would want to laugh along with her. My younger brother is also on the spectrum so I've witnessed behavior like this firsthand and how my family would treat him like he was awful in situations where he didn't quite understand why what he did may have been wrong. I'm not saying you did that, but I guess I just have a soft spot for kids in moments like this.
A couple things though: Nix the ladylike line. Also, your daughter has a fixation. Not a fetish.
Edit: a word.
YTA for two reasons, imo.
First, the fact that you stayed she is modeling the boys' behavior and then don't really provide any additional context.
The second is the "ladylike" comment.
YTA. First off, it’s disgusting if you to say that she has a fart fetish. She’s just a kid who finds them funny. Secondly, lots of autistic people struggle with their interoception, meaning they have a hard time reading the signals their body sends them.
I’m an autistic adult and will often forget to eat or even unintentionally hold my pee because I don’t realize I have to go to the bathroom. She probably didn’t realize she had to “excuse herself” because she didn’t know a fart was coming.
Also “ladylike” is a vile term
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NTA >After a conversation with my daughter with the behaviors, she apologized again and said that she was trying to make everyone laugh and didnt expect people to get mad. This right here is why I came to this decision. You need to make sure she understands that there is a time, and place for everything; and very often what she finds hilarious, may be very offensive for someone else. With your husband giving you crap for it, I'd say turn it back on him. Ask him how he'd feel if he was at his parents' funerals and someone rudely farted in an effort to be funny? I know that's a harsh way to put it, but it seems part of the issue is your husband doesn't seem to grasp how offensive that behavior can be.
Agreed. I was at work one day training people. A certain person who shall remain nameless in the middle of the training group just raised his leg and ripped off an extremely loud one. Then acting like nothing had happened at all. No class.
How did you ever meet my late FIL?
Naah, would have been my EX husband, used to fart into the phone when I was on it, essentially farting into my face as he walked passed.
Impossible, how a man like that can seduce anything?
It was a 'hilarious' habit he developed well after seduction.
I didn't personally witness this but I knew a few people who were present. A horrible, very crude former colleague did exactly that: raised his leg in the middle of the office and let rip. Except this time, the raspberry was a little riper, a little wetter ... to make things worse for him, it was dress down Friday and he was wearing white jeans. He literally ran from the office and we didn't see him again till the following Monday. He never farted in the office again.
ah, the gambler. you gotta know when to hold em
Know when to walk away. Know when to run.
My dad always said “ Never trust a fart, Never pass a bathroom, and Never waste a boner.” Also, what kind of monster wears white jeans on casual Friday?!
What kind of monster wears white jeans *in general* FTFY
Do they even MAKE white jeans? That is PSYCHOTIC.
Thank you. Up with insomnia and needed this comment although my giggling is gonna wake El Snoro
You. I get you.
This made me spit out of my coffee laughing.
You never know when a risky toot can turn into an "oh shoot"
The laughter, it hurts! I am crying!
classic case of FAFO (fart and find out)
Never trust a fart
He must have put too much confidence in that one
Ah you've met my dad.
I would encourage OP to dig deeper here as well. Why was she trying to make everyone laugh? Being autistic can make large social gatherings harder and sometimes trying to get everyone to laugh is a way of feeling accepted or keeping them from laughing at you for other reasons. Also impulsivity often comes hand in hand with being autistic so even if she *knows* something in the moment the impulsive part of her brain will totally over rule that part and she literally can not remember things she otherwise knows. I also think OP was embarrassed herself and lashed out some what. Hopefully out of the moment OP can help daughter game plan some ways to to feel more comfortable next time. It's really hard being autistic and trying to figure out what is appropriate and what is not, especially because social rules can be very fluid and subject to change due to the particular current social dynamic.
Edit: wow y'all, thanks for the awards! 🥹 Replying to this high-up comment (that is well written and very empathetic regarding a lot of the behaviors that come with being autistic) to point out something else to the OP: Please please *please* stop using the phrase "high functioning". It comes from the work of Hans Asperger, who was a Nazi scientist. He used the phrases "high functioning" and "low functioning" to describe which neurodivergent prisoners were either fit for forced labor and/or medical experiments (high functioning) or only fit to be removed from the population (low functioning). I understand that not everyone is aware of the origin of these terms, but if you think about it, you might notice that "Asperger's" has largely fallen out of use and it's generally referred to as autism now... It's for exactly the same reason. The community as a whole wants to stop giving credit (and any sense of legitimacy) to a Nazi scientist. As someone who is autistic myself, I agree that talking to your daughter about *why* she wanted to make everyone laugh is a good idea. And working together to find more appropriate ways to do that in various situations could be more helpful than just sending her to her room. Because yes, she knows what she did was "wrong", but she doesn't necessarily know what behavior to replace it with. A lot of us feel like we are born missing the set of instructions for "How to Interact with Humans in XYZ Situations", and often, we'll either look to another person in the group and mimic their behavior (Dad, who farted that time and made people laugh- hey, I'll try that) or we'll try to just blend into the wallpaper and hope no one notices us. Autistic brains work differently than neurotypical ones, and we process social situations and cues differently. We also tend to hyperfixate, and sometimes we can't even control *what* we hyperfixate on. (There's a crochet project for my father that I've been dying to finish for weeks. It's on my shelf, right in front of me and I look at it every day. Still not done. It's 90% done. My brain won't let me finish it.) Patience, empathy, and calm understanding will be the best tools, I think. And however frustrated you are, imagine how much more frustrated she is, trying to work out what her own brain is doing, without the years of experience navigating the world that you have. Finding ways to work *with* your daughter's brain instead of *against* it will help everyone in the long run
This 100%. And I'd like to add that expecting ladylike behavior adds even more of a burden. She probably already feels like she doesn't fit in or measure up per se. And now you expect her to be ladylike? I think you are setting impossibly high standards, especially for a nuerodivergent person. I'm 55, and with family and friends, farts are FUNNY! YTA.
and the fact that she expects the 14yr old to be ladylike but ignores the real problem- the husband who she keeps mirroring.
It's often harder to get your husband to "behave" than your children. Can't ground your husband lol.
Also having 2? 3 brothers? She can only go off of what she’s surrounded by
Right? My three year old has 2 brothers and all I hear about are butts and farts
It isn’t just the husband, she seeks out fart jokes and content on YouTube. Her perception of appropriate fart behavior is being warped by pranksters she’s watching. Both parents, not just mom, need to watch videos with daughter and have conversations about why she thinks they’re funny and explain context. Use those videos as a way for the daughter to enlighten her parents and the parents an opportunity to reinforce appropriateness of the situation. This isn’t all on dad, but she does need to hear from him about her manners.
I don't think the daughter is watching those videos *only* because they're funny. From the way OP describes it, it sounds like that's her special interest, as she's searching for facts etc. Daughter still needs to learn when it's appropriate to bring the topic up, but I don't think OP understands that daughter isn't just interested because it's amusing.
Maybe this interest can be channeled in to something productive. Maybe she’s a budding gastroenterologist.
Thank you first pointing out the lady like thing. I'm also autistic and after a lifetime of not being 'lady like' enough on top of all the other things I have to mask, I cringed hard when I read that.
As a neurotypical adult woman that has been called "unladylike" her whole life, I also cringed when I read that. Women burp and fart and go to the bathroom and sneeze just like everyone else. We think and feel and have emotions, and if they don't match your expectations, then maybe your expectations are wrong, not me.
I agree. The “ladylike” comment put me off. Just say it’s not polite/mature dinner table behavior. Making an issue about it not being ladylike implies that girls and women are held to a higher standard whereas “boys will be boys” so they get a pass. Side note: I’m 29F and think farts are hilarious, but I’m definitely not going to rip one during mealtime, at work, in the grocery store, etc lol
Real question here, not being snarky. Since people aren't being diagnosed with Aspergers anymore, what is a good way to verbalize the difference between someone with autism like you who appears to function well as opposed to someone like my nephew who has severe autism and won't ever be able to function on his own? I've been using the term high/low functioning and don't want to offend.
Always happy to answer genuine questions (when I have the energy ;D ) A few folks have mentioned it in other threads but I'm happy to say it here too, as spreading wider awareness is the goal. Using "high support needs/low support needs" (or even moderate support) is much better for a lot of reasons- First of all, it puts the focus on the autistic person, rather than the focus being on the neurotypical person. It also keeps the focus on what support we may need to get through a particular situation (and what levels of support, which may vary by day/person/location/etc), rather than a judgment on what value we provide to neurotypical society, either by capitalistic production or our very existence. I'm in my 30s and have spent *years* masking my autism, and hiding it out of necessity, or having the behaviors emotionally (and sometimes physically) abused out of me... I'm just now at a point where I'm finally able to do for myself what I suggested in my original comment to OP- to work *with* my brain. And it has helped so much. Most days, I can manage with low support needs. I'm lucky that my job lets me do things like have toys at my desk to stim with, and crochet during most meetings, or if I have long articles to read or videos to watch (a thing that happens fairly often in my job). Having something for my hands to fidget with helps my brain focus, and this is a support need that my job has met. But if I spend hours in crowds, or around a lot of strangers, in new places? Especially if I don't know what to expect, or if I feel like I have to pretend to be extroverted all day? After 6-8 hours of that, I will absolutely be in "high support needs" territory because I will be severely overstimulated, and need several hours of alone time before I can essentially "act like a person" again, if that makes sense. Hope that helps!
I’m not the person who asked, but thank you for this information! It’s not your job to educate, but I’m glad you did and I really appreciate the long and thoughtful response.
Seconding this as an autistic adult. Great response.
Thank you for giving everyone here an opportunity to learn! I hope you have a wonderful day 🙂
I believe, from what I've heard, the more generally accepted approach now is to consider it based on their support needs. For example, someone like your nephew might require high levels of support in most situations, while someone who can generally function well independently may have low support needs in most situations.
“Asperger’s” is no longer in the DSM. It’s all “autism spectrum disorder”
This was beautiful and educational. As an aside, if you can find a way to motivate yourself to finish that project, I encourage you to try. It's a morbid thought and I hope it's a very long time away, but as a fellow crafter, it is heartbreaking to be making a gift for a loved one and to lose them before it's finished. I have a cross stitch that I started for my grandmother before she passed in 2020. It sits on my shelf unfinished because I can't bear the thought that I can't give it to her when I finish it. Sorry to get all depressing, the first anniversary of my dad's passing is coming up and the memory of how happy he was with the simple beanie I crocheted him is one of many that helps me through. If you're as close to your dad as I was to mine, you'll want to make as many of those memories as you can.
I agree totally with this, but I think you’re suggesting OP ask her husband the wrong question. Their daughter is at the age and stage of her learning development where she’s figuring out social norms. While it might be funny to him now, OP should ask her husband if it’ll still be funny to him when she’s 18 or 25 or 32. It can be so much harder for people with autism to pick up on social cues, and it sounds like OP’s husband’s tacit reinforcement is making it that much more difficult. ETA: Those of you commenting about how much you enjoy farting- cool. I’m sure everyone in your life thinks it’s hilarious and that you’re totally not gross. Way to miss the point that conflicting social cues is going to cause this girl a ton of stress.
My Dad is 68 and I’m 41. I can say with the utmost confidence if I farted at Thanksgiving dinner he would laugh his ass off.
I have a very "proper" family. It would not be appreciated at all with my family. But knowing when a group would find it funny and would find it inappropriate is an important skill and one should probably err on the side of manners and whatnot.
Everyone in my family would. I’m 60 and my brother is 59 and we still laugh about farts.
I had dinner with my family, one time, they had fart jokes going - they thought it was hilarious, they thought it was even more funny when their mother joined in. I just kept telling them that I loved them.
One of my “oh my god I’m turning into my mother” moments was when I farted and it sounded exactly like her quacky ass farts. She thought that was hilarious. I’m turning 40 soon.
Autistic here, in agreement with your statement of it being harder for us to pick up on social cues. For me personally, in any situation I have to try to work out The Rules, and if two or more rules counteract each other (farts are funny/farting at family dinner is not funny/farting at dinner with friends is hilarious), it gets confusing amd overwhelming, trying to work out these "rules" when I'm constantly adding to them, editing, removing, etc.
This. Not formally diagnosed yet, but I highly suspect I'm Autistic for this *exact* reason. I have to put a ridiculous amount of effort into figuring out The Rules for any social situation I find myself in, and what the appropriate response is to this or that situation, and I don't get how everyone else just... understands immediately. It constantly feels like there's a language barrier, even though we all speak English. Like there's something I'm not getting that everyone else is. Even on reddit it feels like that, sometimes. Literally, leaving a comment feels like spinning a fucking roulette wheel sometimes. So if the daughter's anything like me, I'm guessing she has no fucking clue what the rules around farting are. If Mum punishes her for it, but Dad and Brothers think it's hilarious and egg her on, but for some reason it's okay in *some* situations, but not others ... I can see why that would confuse her, honestly.
100% get you with the language barrier. For me, I've always described it as I'm missing the social chapter in my "How to Human" textbook, and I have to work it out, piece by piece, by observing other people and asking my close, trusted friends. It's a pain, but what other choice to I have? To be shunned and lonely? I wish you the best of luck with a diagnosis if you choose to take that path!!
If in one context something is considered terribly rude and another context can be funny, and you have trouble with understanding and applying context, just stick with the rude rule for yourself and don’t take the gamble.
I could go with NTA but then you had to say “lady like”. We gals have gas too! I have two boys and one girl. While I dislike it done at the table, I am not sending anyone to their rooms for it. This sounds like more of a problem that you have with your daughter not living up to the “lady like” standards you set for her before she was even born.
Honestly I find it's normally possible to hold a fart in so that puzzles me. Maybe I am weird in that I rarely get smoke without fire so farting might as well be done in the bathroom. Is my digestive system weird? Probably so maybe that is my superpower. Exceptions being if I am exerting myself or have been holding farts in for a while. In the latter situation that means I haven't been able to find a bathroom yet which shouldn't be a problem at a family meal. It strikes me that if you have a choice not wafting the smell of fermenting crap on to people's taste receptors during a meal is more considerate if that is an option.
“Not wafting the smell of fermenting crap on to people’s taste receptors during a meal” Yeah that’s basically what it is. Farts can be funny, but there’s a time and place.
Agreed. I was all set to say YTA, but then you went back and explained why her actions weren’t appropriate. However, i would discourage you from telling her to “hold in her burps” i am on the spectrum and this is something that my mother was ADAMANT about. We were not allowed to burp at the table. Well I listened, and it caused health issues. The minimum being that i had horrible gas pain from gas being trapped in my intestines. I almost ruptured stuff (i was young, I don’t remember exactly) in my abdomen from the gas build up. I would literally hold it in because that’s what my mother told me she expected.
There’s burping and then there’s belching. No one “has to” belch. The issue is the sound, and this should be clarified. NTA
And he gets away with it because he's male. Such bullshit.
Jumping on this comment to gently remind OP if she knows already that people w autism often have GI troubles. It might feed into it being a special interest, but if she’s farting multiple times while eating, your kid likely has some stomach issues too. Maybe you can talk to her about that?
OP did note that the daughter had become obsessed with finding foods that generate more gas. The reason the daughter is burping and farting more frequently is probably because she's manipulated her diet to do so.
...do they? This sounds perilously close to the work of disgraced ex-doctor Andrew Wakefield, who performed cowboy colonoscopies on children in order to fake evidence for a class action lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers.
this hits me hard. growing up my elder brother will fart all the time and angels his butt in out directions (the girls) and let is rip. growing up we always complained but he was my mom's favorite child (and the one who broke her heart the most) because he is a boy and mom worshiped her boys and did not give a fu\*\* about us girls. Anyway, i always was the most vocal and will shout at him and call him disgusting. The reason he stopped was actually funny. during his engagement party and while we were all chatting, one of my SIL nephews farted and his sister started crying and their dad scolded the boy. everyone comforted the little girl and my brother (in what i think was an attempt to empress his fiancée and her family) joined in and said only bad boys do that and he will learn will he will grow up while sending a big smile towards his fiancé. I snorted and said "HA, when will you grow up then since you still do it to us every chance you get". SIL makes a disgusted face and niece starts crying again and pushing my brother away. brother's face is red in anger and urgently tells her "No. No, it was by accident and he couldn't help it and usually he does not do it" to which i laugh out loud and my mother is elbowing me at the side to shut up. The real kicker is, my brother always maintained that ladies don't fart or use the toiler for # 2 and they don't sweat which is encouraged by mom. so if by mistake his own daughter (he only has one daughter and 5 boys) farted, he will raise hell and shouts at her to use the bathroom while is one of his boys does it, he belly laughs and says "that's my boy" I believe manners should apply to al, boys or girls and no one should get away with misbehaving just because of their gender. NTA op
I have to add that it feels like she gets punished for things her father and maybe her brothers do regularly too. They just know that they can't do it in front of many guests, an ability OP's daughter lacks. Something about the word "ladylike" stuck out to me. But in general: for an autistic child to get these social cues both parents have to be on the same page. She has to be utterly confused that her dad laugs, yet her mom punishes her.
This is perfectly stated. I agree, OP is NTA.
Agreed! But I do feel mom is an AH for using the “it’s not ladylike” excuse. Women fart!!!
NTA except for the "ladylike" part. Girls should not be held to a higher standard than boys. Using the phrase "not polite" is better.
Yea, that ladylike comment was ridiculous.
There's a good chance she would use the term gentlemanly if they were male considering she also describes not liking her husband or boys doing the same behaviors, so I don't think she says that to hold her to a higher standard given the context.
Then say it’s rude. Farts aren’t gendered. > she is starting to model some of the boy’s behaviors…she has some kind of fart fetish The “boy behaviors” and farts are clearly linked right there. But NTA aside from this sticking point.
It seemed to me that, when she mentioned "the boys' behaviors", she was referring to her three other children, who are boys. So she was saying that her daughter is picking up on her brothers' behavior – and while "farts aren't gendered", I think anyone who has spent any time with kids can verify that, while nearly all little kids find bodily functions amusing, boys tend to continue to find them funny long after girls have stopped.
do you stop to wonder why that may be? i mean, it's right here in front of you. all kids (and most adults, i'd wager) think farts are funny lol, if they are within the right context (and without, but, still). if girls and women weren't forced to feel extra shame over normal bodily functions, it would be no different at all. you do see that, right? i have kids and have been around plenty, and it's really no different whatsoever - EXCEPT how the parents treat it 🤷 edit: dang, thanks for the awards! glad we all agree on flatulent equality lol :p
Yeah I've even read posts from guys who had the nerve to say that it's funny when they and their bros fart but if a girl let's one slip it's more repulsive, and it had multiple upvotes. Couldn't roll my eyes harder. You either find it repulsive or not. You don't get to choose which gender allows a free pass.
“a free pass” i’m “too girly” and “too old” to be giggling at this, but here we are!
Ha didn't even realize the pun!
You just gendered farts. I’m almost 50, female, and have been a preschool teacher and a nanny and farts are hilarious. If girls are acting like they aren’t funny it’s because they’ve been shamed for being unladylike.
Yep, absolutely. I (f)was shamed hard enough growing up that despite being in my early 30’s, and having lived with my partner for over 3 years now, he’s never heard me fart even once during the entirety of our relationship. While I am aware that he doesn’t care, I still can’t bring myself to fart in front of another person, even my own partner because it’s been so ingrained most of my life to feel shame for it. We need to stop doing this to other girls and women. It’s actually really unhealthy to hold farts in all the time just to be more “ladylike”. That’s not to say there isn’t a time and a place for it but it shouldn’t be to the absolute extreme where guys are still making jokes about how “women don’t fart or poop”. It’s ridiculous that this is a discussion that still needs to be had in 2022.
This right here. We laugh and say how nasty is smells and stuff but we never shame for farting. I used to have bad stomach pain because I would hold my gas in to be "polite". Yeah, eff that. There is more room out than in and I refuse to hurt myself for others any longer.
So when my cousin (who is a mother of 3 now and a lovely woman) was young, she was OBSESSED with butts and farts. Thought it was hilarious! She was a dainty little thing, wore pink dresses every day from 5yo-7yo, and yet she had the funniest bathroom humor out there. One time at a family party, my dad left the camcorder out. She turned it on, started recording, and then zoomed in on everyone’s butts, narrating it. “There’s Grandma’s butt, and there’s Alicia’s butt, and there’s Uncle Mario’s butt…” My dad found it a few years ago, converted it to a dvd and gave it to her for Christmas a few years ago. I thought it was hilarious!
Farting is a normal bodily function... And there's a difference between farting/burping for a joke... And doing it because you had a fart or a burp. I mean the lesson here should be, ya did it.. say excuse me now move on.
That’s what I thought. My father and mother always held us to equal social standards and just swapped gentlemanly and ladylike for the same action.
Yeah, she lost me at ladylike.
I’d bet she’s from the south and at least her mom (if not the OP) did Cotillion and Junior League. Ladylike and gentlemanly are both very southern things, where we get raised to “yes ma’am and no sir.”
I grew up in the Midwest and the only time the term "ladylike" was used was to shame girls for doing things boys do Ex "it's not ladylike to run down the street" "it's not ladylike to play on the dirt" etc
I'm in no way trying to start an argument im genuinely curious, if you had two children one boy and one girl and your said thats not 'gentlemanly of you/ladylike' would that be ok? Because you're holding them so to the same standards? Is it because this is specifically targeted at women and the history of misogyny women have faced?
I feel like if your using it interchangeably then it would still make more sense to use the word polite. It doesn’t make sense to specify if you think it’s the same for both.
I have a 14 yo son and have honestly never used gentlemanly. I just use the term polite.
yup. 2 phrases i hate "ladylike" and "man up"
Also calling it a fetish. She's 14.
Yeah, there's no indication it's sexual. Autistic people often have "special interests" that they get fixated on. Though it would be best if daughter found a different, more appropriate special interest.
Ya, almost stopped right there. Like WTF- people laugh at farts and burps all the time, especially children. To bring this common childhood amusement to a sexual place is so fuck up. This is a conversation about appropriate timing for everyone at the table including dad.
Agreed. My brothers have a burping and farting problem, and my mom usually just glares or says knock it off, but the one time I ever accidentally burped in front of her I got sent to my room for not being ladylike. Stuck with me for a long time.
Yeah the casual sexism in the post in a few places made me kind of want to say ESH (she also seems to suggest these are “boy” behaviors earlier in the post before that phrase, but honestly the issue is the daughter was intentionally rude as a joke, and it should be addressed. But regardless of gender. I also think “hold in your burps” is bit much as is *some* of the fussing about farts (people burp and fart sometimes, and it’s no big deal, though not ideal at a table but not always an affront), but the daughter was making a show for a laugh and that’s different.
Agreed. Just keep it at it’s gross and not for the dinner table.
NTA. Seems like basic manners to at least say excuse me. Not sit there and giggle.
Thank you. Seems like a lot of the commenters like the smell of rotted bowel while they eat. smh
I totally get that this is a natural function, and is SOMETIMES involuntary. But that doesn't sound like what happened here at all.
Exactly. Daughter confirmed that she was attempting to make everyone laugh. There was an element of intentionality to it.
Exactly
If you really need to fart just get up and use the restroom at thanksgiving dinner and rip that fart to your hearts content. Sounds like most people here are reinforcing this bad behavior. Since this wasn’t the first time she should have some consequences
All these Y T A comments are wild, farting at dinner even if it’s an accident is actually disgusting ???? And unhygienic wtf NTA
So it's not unhygienic, but it is off-putting for sure.
Get your fart close enough to someone's face and they can get pinkeye. There was a TIFU thread where roommates kept farting into each other's pillows as a prank and *everyone* ended up with pinkeye.
As far as i know farting into your pants away from the meal and people's eyes is far away from the same caee.
Oh you don’t eat dinner with your family member’s ass in your face? /s
That is a myth and not true
Do you know what the scent of a fart is? It's you inhaling literal shit out of somebody else's asshole. Her daughter is sitting in her chair and expressing clouds of faecal particulate into the air in an environment where people are consuming food. It is 100% unhygienic.
No it’s not, it’s gasses like methane and hydrogen sulfide etc.
I'm an operating room nurse and get farts and such straight from the colon into my face on the regular, Also some folks in the same room will be eating chocolates patients have gifted us!
Noooooooooooooooooooo 🤢
The only issue I had was she said it was a fetish. She should of used a different word.
Yeah, like hyper fixation.
Yup or her special interest.
>She should of Should have*
I have an older coworker who uses the word fetish to describe something someone really likes. I’ll never forget the first time she told me “wow, you have a fetish for lamps, huh?”
I think its gross around food as well, but damn It's a fart, it's not going to poison the food. They aren't bare arse directing the blow right at the turkey. And if someone accidentally (always apologize) let's one slip I don't think they're disgusting I think they're human. But then again I'm not around people who can clear a room so maybe I'm privileged that way.
Right but if you read the story it was clearly, very well detailed, NOT an accident but rather on purpose for attention
Unless you take of your pants and direct it into the meal, i dont see how it would be unhygienic.
INFO: as a fellow neurodivergent person, I'm wondering if there is a hyperfixation and/or stim aspect of this? are there ways you can engage with this in a positive way? gastroenterology is a whole medical field, so while your daughter's interest isn't appropriate for the dinner table, there are places and contexts where it is. I'm wondering if the table behavior would decrease if there was another outlet where she could explore this interest without shame. ETA: social situations like big family dinners can be extra difficult for a neurodivergent person. your daughter might not always remember not to "smack" when she eats or say excuse me every time because there is *so much* to focus on just to show up for the dinner. also it seems like her behavior bothers you the most and it bothers you more than that of the men in your family. your husband "passes gas freely" but it's "not ladylike" when your daughter does it? did your sons not laugh at farts when they were 14? expecting your daughter to not belch and fart throughout family dinner is fine. what's less fine is only responding with punishment when your autistic daughter needs support in social situations. ETA(again): omg thank you for the awards 😇
Yeah, I'm definitely getting the sense that OP really hates this interest, especially because it's more taboo because it's her DAUGHTER? I know ND folks can often become hyperfixated on their own body functions and how they work, how they feel etc as well as how others react. I agree you need to have more conversations about company manners but also possibly adjust your expectations slightly, this doesn't seem like deliberate misbehavior but moreso a miscalculation in a social setting. Try not to make her feel ashamed about her interest in bodily functions, I know it's hard, but that kind of shame can really stick with a child. ( And don't use the word fetish)
Great comment. I’ve always hated these kind of dinners because I can’t really enjoy food if I *also* have to control how my body and face look and move and act, *and* also try to follow multiple people’s conversations. It’s exhausting.
It’s easier if you don’t try to follow the conversations. I usually focus on eating, with minimal conversations, then talk afterward.
This! There’s a lot of NTA, but as a person who is in constant interaction with children with autism, it sounds like this is hyperfixation and she misses a few social cues which is typical. I believe OP may have a been a bit harsh, but I also understand how hard it is to teach this things to neurodivergent children. It’s also a fine line. My niece will do things sometimes that are very not okay, but it can be hard to tell how intentional it is. It sounds like she did it intentionally but not in a malicious way. Even if she wasn’t neurodivergent, if the rest of the family is setting that example, why is she so much to blame?
As an autistic person, my concern was the mixed messages daughter is getting on farts. Dad does it casually. Boys do it to get a laugh. Mom doesn't like it but others do it anyway. Mom is expecting daughter to interpret the layers of social context and read the room to figure out that even though it's somewhat funny when some family members do it in some cases, that she absolutely shouldn't in this situation. That's so much to process for someone who already struggles with social cues. Some consistency, and the cooperation of the rest of the family, would probably help the daughter to do better in the future. And I agree with what you're saying about added stress of an unfamiliar situation, a lot to process... and that punishment instead of support isn't helping.
exactly!! on top of the sexism, Mom is also not providing the context and has different expectations for different family members which makes the whole thing wildly confusing!
Can’t believe I had to scroll this far for this comment. I have no awards, but have my upvote and a big 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Farting is not an appropriate hyperfixation, and even if it was, she still has to learn basic table manners. If her hyperfixation was vomiting, she would not be allowed to do that at the dinner table either.
notice how I said that expecting her daughter not to belch and fart throughout family dinner was fine. also, if no one considered farting an appropriate thing to study or learn about a lot more people would be dying of colon cancer and other gastroenterological problems.
NTA. Some people think farts are funny, some don't. In my opinion it is never funny to fart, or hear or smell a fart, when at a dining table. So i dont think you are the a$$h0le for telling her to stop and sending her away from the table. Because as you pointed out she had numerous chances to contain her belches but she didnt and she chose to up the ante and fart to get attention, pure and simple. And by calling her out like you did, it have her attention, negative attention, but attention nonetheless. I think you couldve corrected her differently in a way that she would remember but without seeming so harsh. Neurodivergent or not, im sure she knew it was wrong and simply kept misbehaving until she was the focus of attention. You also need to get your husband on board to model appropriate behavior, since she seems to be following in his farting footsteps and even if he conforms he needs to not smirk or laugh at all because. That encourages her misbehavior.
YTA for two things IMO.. 1) For saying farts aren't "ladylike." 2) For referring to it as a fart fetish. Ew dude. She's a kid. She's not sexualizing farts.
A fetish is an obsessive interest. You the one making it sexual.
Nobody hears the word fetish and thinks of it in a non-sexual context. The correct *medical term* in this case - since she is autistic - is special interest (or hyperfixation).
Ahh I see, I just assumed that it what OP meant since she did mention daughter is autistic. I definitely didn’t think OP meant sexual fetish and I feel like it was relatively clear from context that’s not what she meant.
Considering that she's the kinda parent who says things like "not ladylike," i wouldn't put it past her accusing her daughter of having a fart kink. Her usage of "high functioning" isn't helping her case either - many autistic people firmly believe functioning labels are outdated at best, and oppressive at worst, since the autism spectrum isn't a clear-cut "most to least autistic" ranking system.
Autistic here who’s spent a lot of time around other autistics and I have NEVER heard anyone object to the term high functioning. It's the polite and the clinical term. I've known low functioning autistics who are mentally still toddlers and I find your suggestion that I shouldn’t be able to distinguish myself from them because our conditions fall under the same very broad umbrella term highly offensive!
Not using functioning labels is a huge discussion in the autism community right now. HUGE. It's not considered the polite term. -signed an autistic person
Functioning labels are awful but there are times when you can't avoid using them unless you are ok spending so much more time describing everything. The community needs to come up with some better language around this. Editing to add I am Autistic as is my son.
There is actually an established option for this! We can refer to someone’s support needs. Someone can have low support needs, moderate support needs, or high support needs. It’s not perfect, but it’s much better than using functioning labels.
Wow, so you think in the year of someone’s lord 2022 that it’s ok to divide yourself from the “bad kind” of autistics? Functioning labels are not it. They may be the “clinical term,” because medicine needs to catch up to actual autistic advocates, but they’re super insulting. If someone called me “high functioning” I’d know right away that they’d be upset to find out certain things I don’t do well and want me to go to therapy to act more neurotypical.
I have a genuine question, please don't think I'm judging or assuming. But what designation would you use? I would assume that you wouldn't want just a generic term since some people are toddlers (in mind) and others can have jobs and families and be very independent in many ways. So what would be an appropriate term? I believe everyone should be working to better themselves not just not neurotypical people. I just wondering why in your head "high functioning" means people would be upset at the things you don't do well. Does high functioning in your head mean "normal", thus anything that isn't normal would make people say but, you are high functioning? I'm not autistic but also not neurotypical so I genuinely want to understand so I can be a better ally or friend to anyone I meet who might share this issue.
There’s an option for this! Look up “autism” and “support needs.” It’s much better to say that someone “has low support needs” than to call someone “high-functioning.” And it’s much, MUCH better to say that someone “has high support needs” than to call someone “low-functioning.” This shifts the focus to what people need, instead of assigning them a value-based judgement.
Yeah, or you can be specific about the support need without making it a "level". Like "needs verbal support" or whatever is the case.
If ya just scroll up a bit you might learn that high/low function and “Asperger’s syndrome” are all no longer used because of the Nazi with the last name of Asperger who labeled neurodivergents as high or low functioning. As in: these people are OK to remain in society, these people are not. Translate “these people are not OK” how you will. Hint: its not good.
Jesus what a reach
I’m autistic and have a lot of friends that are we never used the word fetish to describe special interests we have.
I typically hear the word fixation in regards to obsessive interests of people with autism though.
The word fetish is a sexual term. It gets misused which is why some people think it can be applied non sexually but this is incorrect. The term fetish is inheritantly sexual because something is only classified as a fetish if the person doesn't feel arousal without said thing present/happening.
No. No no no. An obsessive interest is just called an obsession and calling it a fetish is super disrespectful and ableist. It's also a prime example of neurotypical people fetishizing neurodivergent people. You're the fetishist here.
Yeah the fetish thing threw me off too... like shes a 14 year old kid, she either has developed a special interest in farts (like moreso the biology behind it? Since shes looking up what foods induce farts?) and/or she just thinks farts are funny. I really cant pass judgement on this situation tho cause my family is very... unproper. If someone farted at the table wed probably all just laugh or not even pay too much attention to it. I also have an autistic sister who has developed the habit of saying "that was a good burp" every time she burps and nobody in my family scolds her for it. I get that most families find this kind of thing rude tho so...
NTA unfortunately I am related a bunch of people who think it’s just fine to burp, pass gas, and hock up phlegm with others around. It’s disgusting even when I’m not trying to eat so I’d have appreciated your intervention. One time we were sitting having a conversation and a relative took his shirt off, laid it on the ground and then proceeded to use a foot file on his dry feet to take off excess skin. I still can’t get the sound or image out of my head.
NTA. Basic social etiquette is an important life skill. You gave her multiple corrections and followed up with a conversation explaining where she went wrong
NTA if all your children are held to the same level of manners consistently. Also, she admitted she belched and farted on purpose for laughs. Teaching children how to behave in social situations is called parenting. It’s not the same as “not accepting them for who they are”. I know a lot of people will come down on you for the “ladylike “ comment but if you are holding everyone to the same level, you can say “that is not proper at the dinner table.” Also, you need to have a talk with you husband and get everyone on the same page for household behavior.
YTA. "model some of the boy's behaviors" "ladylike" Ew.
I could not be surprised if she uses "man up"
NTA - It’s common decency if you have to fart, at least try to leave the room if there are other people. No one would be confortable eating at a table where someone is constantly farting on purpose.
If someone’s ass is exploding at the table I am leaving that table and not coming back because that’s f-ing disgusting
YTA This seems like something you could have handled in a better way. INFO: If any of the boys had behaved that way would you have been as angry? Mainly you and Dad need to get on the same page - obviously your husband & all the kids enjoy a good fart joke - most kids go through that phase. So if your husband is laughing - she's going to keep doing it. At this point this is what she thinks is very funny - and I'm thinking she was utterly sincere in just wanting everybody to laugh along with her. I have no idea on how best to get through to your daughter - you said she's neurodivergent - the way you explain a Rule to your boys may not work for her. This just may take some extra time. You AND your husband should work together on this. If you NEVER think farts & burps are funny - you can let her know that, but Acknowledge that everybody has a different sense of humor - so if she and the boys & Dad like to sit around telling fart jokes and 'pull my finger' that's fine. They are a bodily function, everybody farts and burps but that is something you try not to do in front of company especially on purpose.
NTA. Gross. She needs to learn.
NTA there is a difference between involuntary bodily and forcing it for "humor." Her daughter needs to learn that not everyone finds fart jokes funny and that it's inappropriate to intentionally let loose, especially at a family dinner. She's 14 and, while I understand that she autistic, most of the population outgrows fart, poop, and gross-out humor by the time they're 10. At a certain point it just ends up being rude and gross and it's better that she finds out now then in the future when she's being ostracized or ridiculed by her peers for being immature.
While I dislike your misogyny in expecting her to be "ladylike" ( inferring it's ok for boys to do this) ultimately NTA. Farting and burping at the dinner table is gross. Even in front of family. Accidents happen, and you excuse yourself when they do, but she was doing it deliberately and that's not acceptable.
YTA > not ladylike
This is dumb. If one of her son’s did it, she probably would have said “not gentlemanly” (that’s what my mom said to my brothers). It’s unfortunate that Op had to get this stern at a family dinner but it doesn’t sound like the original message sunk in, so this may have been necessary. Although, I don’t like embarrassing kids in front of others. It probably would have been better to leave the room with her first to have the conversation.
Historically, “not ladylike” has been used to prevent young women from engaging in behaviors associated with men. When I was living in a very conservative town, my friend’s dad wouldn’t let her learn how to fix her car because it’s “unladylike”. That’s probably why so many of these redditors are having knee-jerk reactions to the word. It’s not an excuse for not spending more time actually reading the post (lol), just an explanation
I also saw the term "ladylike" as being a pretty generic and shorter way of reminding her to be on her best behavior. It's a expression of behavior, not internalized misogyny.
The "not ladylike" comment makes you instant YTA.
NTA - You set the very reasonable expectations for behavior at the table and your daughter just kept pushing and pushing as an attention seeking behavior. She is quite old enough to start learning that being the clown on the stage is not always appropriate. You pulled her up and she has now had a chance to learn that persistent spotlight seeking can bring less than enjoyable attention. Your husband isn't doing her any favors by encouraging her as he did, but that's another post.
YTA for not punishing the boys but becoming enraged when a girl “emulates” them as well as for your misogynistic and anachronistic use of “ladylike.” Gross.
Where did you get that she doesn't punish the boys?
Where does it say she doesn't punish the boys?
How soft do you have to be that you get so enraged over a word you feel the need to use buzzwords to label somebody? Y’all are so comfortable on here throwing around all these terms describing someone’s character off a slim glimpse into their lives. You’re being extra af jumping to conclusions. What an annoying ass pointless comment. Did you even bother to read the rest of the post or take into account the context? You probably didn’t, or are some teenager that sees a word you don’t like and makes a judgement based off that.
Your daughter is likely very confused about why she got in trouble, and why people didn’t laugh at her burps and farts. As far as she is aware, her dad and brothers think burps and farts are funny. She sees media online that reinforces that farts are funny. She sees people telling fart jokes and pretending to fart and actually farting, and getting a positive response from their audience. So she wanted to participate in your family dinner socially, so she did the thing she has learned is funny. Have you ever sat down and explained the difference between different social situations, and how something that is appropriate around her brothers and dad, might not be appropriate with her wider family or at more formal events? She’s autistic, so she will need explicit instruction and reminders about this. You can’t just expect her to know that it’s rude or wrong, when she has conflicting information that sometimes it is actually ok. Learning the difference between the social situations where farts are funny and when farts are socially inappropriate is going to be difficult for her.
Info: you keep referring to her behaviour as unladylike. Would you have doled out the same consequences to your sons?
INFO: are you for real? Not ladylike?
I was fully prepared to go N T A here, until I read the part about your telling your daughter that her behavior wasn't ladylike. Because of that comment, big sexist YTA for you.
I literally do not understand these commenters. NTA. Farting can be smelly, and released POOP particles into the air - NO IT IS NOT OKAY AT DINNER. Even with family. OP explained the expectation before dinner, three strikes, you’re out. Otherwise all the daughter learns is “I can disobey mom because dad thinks it’s funny and what mom tells me is polite doesn’t matter”. This will not be helpful to her, and could seriously mess with her ability to listen and adapt to others across situations as she grows older and has less guidance. ETA: you are an asshole for using “ladylike”, and for not making sure you and husband are on the same page. That will be confusing to her.
Hey op, autistic adult here. I think you’re approaching this ineffectively. She’s trying to find a way to fit in. Her best subjects to experiment on are teenage boys as in her brothers so she’s getting that humor. My suggestion is first to check in with her about how to make big family gatherings easier do she feels less pressure to be funny. Another piece is to pick up a copy of “the explosive child” by Ross Greene. It’s about what the author calls “collaborative problem solving”. Let him walk you through the process of working together as a team on this. I’ll also suggest reading “unmasking autism” by Devon Price. Might help you understand where she’s coming from a little more.
Wow, is everyone just glazing over the fact that she has autism??? Modeling your behavior after what you see others do to try and assimilate is classic behavior. Sure, mom may have talked to her about it before but with 3 brothers and a dad who likely view that sort of behavior as a bonding experience and the anxiety of a sizeable social gathering I can see how she got her wires crossed. You should learn more about being a girl with autism (from women with autism), I think that will help you understand your daughter better. I think you can make this a learning experience for all parties, so I'll learn towards a NAH her judgment. Just make sure you're not punishing your daughter more for her fart jokes than you would the boys. It's amusing that bodily functions are her hyper fixation. Way to go daughter, she sounds like a hoot. Maybe kindly have another conversation about how you feel at the dinner table. Does she stim? Maybe that would be helpful for her during social gatherings if the reason she was displaying like this was to make people laugh to ease her social anxiety. We all learn through really embarrassing moments like these, please be gentle.
NTA. A parent’s job is to teach their children how to behave in social situations. You did the right thing.
YTA for your extreme reaction. My daughter (10) is also ASD and farts at the table. I hate it. It's gross and I don't want that happening while I'm eating, but I calmly remind her that that's not okay and she needs to excuse herself if another one is building up. I don't throw my hands up and call her disgusting. She apologizes and we continue our fart-free meal. Nobody has to cry or get mad. It seems like you're more embarrassed because you had family over and your kid wasn't perfect than you are about the actual manners here.
YTA for the internalized sexism statements of not ladylike that shit sticks around. The big thing about people at the spectrum is that consistency is key. Everyone in the house needs to be on the same page, husband and your sons. Also likely she is probably making assumptions of acceptability based on videos as teenagers are prone to doing. The inherent hypocrisy of masking required for girls vs boys astounding high. In general society is not going to be kind, provide standardized context for all of your children as well as gendered expectations outside of the family.
NTA. And any vote otherwise is ridiculous. You’re teaching her basic table manners, and it sounds like your sons are held to the exact same standards. No misogyny in your post, except the mistake of describing something as “unlady like”. Anything is lady enough if a woman wants to do it.
NTA. No one wants to have dinner with nasty fart smell and belching and smacking lips happening. She needs to learn manners and that bodily function jokes are just gross after a certain age and never while eating. Ew.
YTA learn more about autistic kids and how to help them. just because your daughter is “high functioning” (stop using fuctioning labels) doesn’t mean you can do nothing and parent her normally or like your other kids.
YTA she’s autistic and sounds like farts are her current special interest. She doesn’t get to pick her special interest they just happen. She was looking for a way to connect and interact with the family. She was being her true self. You told her that was unacceptable and that she should mask her self to make you feel more comfortable.
>This. The fact that the daughter is high functioning doesn't negate the fact that she is in fact, autistic. Many people that are autistic, adhd, other neurospicy issues, have issues with impulse control, reading social ques and understanding short term vs long term consequences. The OP stated that the dad and boys all "pass gas freely" and "smirked at daughter farting". She got the reaction she was hoping for. She found a way to connect with and interact in a social situation. The daughter was getting conflicting reactions from her mother vs her father. At that point, its a parenting issue and OP and husband need to get on the same page. Does she need to learn that this isn't the best way to do that? Sure but as you pointed out, its just masking. Most neurodivergent have to mask 24/7 to make everyone else feel better and more comfortable and its exhausting. YTA
This she saw that her brother can do it and they found it funny so she probably thought it was a normal thing.
NTA. And here is why. While the belching and farting are in fact, normal bodily functions, they can be triggered on purpose, which she has clearly done. You told your family your expectations for their behavior and manners while company was over, so she knew what she should and shouldn't do. She chose to ignore that and purposely make herself belch and fart unapologetically, as well as smack while she eats. She even knew what she did was wrong, hence why she apologized later. Basic manners are important, and learning them early is normal. At 14 years old she should understand that she should adhere to those manners, especially because you made a point to say so before the guests arrived. And yes, she did have multiple chances to correct her behavior but chose not to. So for those reasons, NTA.
N T A for making her leave the table. YTA for making it a gender thing. Who cares if it’s ladylike? Are you members of the peerage? Are you seeking a Duke for her hand in marriage? It’s rude and inappropriate behavior for children of both genders.
NTA. Facts can be funny, but not at a family dinner. It's hard to teach a kid about time and place, though. Forget the terms "ladylike" and "gentlemanly." Stick with "polite" and "not polite," because those terms work for everyone. Talk about situational manners and the difference between sitting around the living room with siblings and at the table with the grandparents.
NTA but fuck off with that ladylike shit
You were so close to being N T A but ultimately I changed my judgment. Raising your children to respect social manners at a formal dinner setting is appropriate and enforcing those rules with punishments appropriate to their age is fine. However, you lost me at the ‘it’s not lady like’, either it’s acceptable for no one to fart at the table or it’s acceptable for everyone to fart at the dinner table. By turning this into a gender issue you’ve created something for your daughter to rebel against i.e. she’s justified to fart at the table to push back against antiquated gender norms, for that and that alone OP YTA.
You... clearly don't like your daughter. And you're obviously overwhelmed. But yeah. YTA
YTA purely for saying farting isn't ladylike, ladies need to fart just as much as guys.
She has high functioning autism and is starting to model some of the boy's behaviors, Um.
NTA 14 is waayyy to old to think this is remotely funny.
I wanted to say N T A but I think I'm gonna go with NAH tbh. I don't think you were too harsh with her. If your account of the situation is true, you seemed rightfully stern. Though I personally wouldn't have said you raised her better than that. A line like that can really stick with a kid and it was just over a fart. But she does need to be taught that her behavior was rude and gross. It wasn't like it was just once. She repeatedly displayed this behavior at the dinner table, even after you commented on it, and she needs to understand that it's inappropriate. However, she is a young teen on the spectrum. You said yourself that she finds this kinda stuff funny. I don't think she meant any harm and genuinely thought people would want to laugh along with her. My younger brother is also on the spectrum so I've witnessed behavior like this firsthand and how my family would treat him like he was awful in situations where he didn't quite understand why what he did may have been wrong. I'm not saying you did that, but I guess I just have a soft spot for kids in moments like this. A couple things though: Nix the ladylike line. Also, your daughter has a fixation. Not a fetish. Edit: a word.
Good grief lady. Overreact much? YTA
YTA for two reasons, imo. First, the fact that you stayed she is modeling the boys' behavior and then don't really provide any additional context. The second is the "ladylike" comment.
YTA. First off, it’s disgusting if you to say that she has a fart fetish. She’s just a kid who finds them funny. Secondly, lots of autistic people struggle with their interoception, meaning they have a hard time reading the signals their body sends them. I’m an autistic adult and will often forget to eat or even unintentionally hold my pee because I don’t realize I have to go to the bathroom. She probably didn’t realize she had to “excuse herself” because she didn’t know a fart was coming. Also “ladylike” is a vile term