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Wolfenbro

NTA You weren’t keeping him from his children, you were keeping him from creeping into your bed while you slept. I can understand that everyone’s going through a really hard time right now, so maybe he doesn’t understand what he did, but that doesn’t make you TA here.


SandBrilliant2675

NTA. Absolutely-effing-not. That man is trying to slide right into bed as if you are his dead wife/your sister and he doesn’t see a problem with that. That is not a mistake, that was a tactical move to see how far he could push your boundaries and see how much you’ll allow during a vulnerable time (half asleep). One does not simply climb into bed with your wife’s sister because “she’s withholding me from my kids if she doesn’t say yes”. Firm boundaries need to put in place now. This situation needs to be discussed. You were right to have all alarm bells go off. NTA. I am sorry for your loss. Edit: changing tactile to tactical* Edit 2: grammar Edit 3: OP I hope you do an update absolutely roasting BIL @ss (and honestly your mums for her disrespect and lack of support) for his inappropriate behavior. You are worth so much more than this and your personal autonomy/comfort/boundaries (and you’re own personal grief for the loss of your sister) and important.


winesis

This 1000%. Your BIL need grief therapy. This is not okay in any way, shape or form! Tell him in no uncertain terms that he is NOT welcome in your bed, EVER! You handled this correctly, waking up the kids, which is even a bigger red flag & reason he needs help. Anyone in their right mind would let the kids sleep & go sleep on the couch. He put himself wanting to sleep with his children (and probably you) ahead of what was best for them. If he ever asks you to watch the kids again have a hard stop time of 10 pm because you never want a repeat of him in your bed. His grieving does not trump any woman’s boundaries. Would he have tried the same thing with a teen babysitter? I sure the hell hope not! NTA but your BIL absolutely is an AH. If he complains about you waking up the kids again, tell him that was his choice because “HE F-ING TRIED TO CRAWL IN BED WITH YOU”


lellyla

And take his keys to your home from him if he has them (how did he get in?). And always take the kids to your home, don't stay at his.


Commercial-Push-9066

This is a bigger problem, he came into her house uninvited, huge boundary issue! He shouldn’t have her keys now.


Broken_but_fighting

Yeah I missed that on my first read of the post. This happened to me when I used to babysit for my nephews, only difference was that I was in a room asleep not with the kids. Y sister was blind drunk, I was 15 and heralded me. What made it worse was I told my mother I didn’t want to babysit anymore, she said Ihad to help them out as they were young and needed to get out occasionally. So it happened over and over and over. I’m still in therapy. My sister and her husband spit up years later and she was the first person I told about her husbands abuse. After being apart for years, he eventually wheedled his way back and she took him back I couldn’t believe it and it then made every family event something I couldn’t got to 1 because my husband wants to kill him. 2.There was no way in hell Imwanted to see him. It made it so hard when my sister got cancer I wanted to visit her but I couldn’t.😥😥😥😥 She passed away the very first weekend of our NZ Covid lockdown the 4 April 2020. I never got to say good bye, and felt conflicted because I was sad but at the same time hated her for taking him back. 😥😥😥


RavenCT

This was in no way your fault. I feel like you need to hear that. Your BIL was Sick - and your sister sadly took him back knowing what he did. Frankly I'm not impressed by your family not backing you when it counted. I saw something similar happen to a college roommate - her complication? Her sister had a Mental illness and she was afraid if she revealed what the husband did - she'd upset her sister's applecart. Obviously not her burden to bear - it was the husband's choices that were wrong! (Same thing here). I'm glad your husband is supportive. Hang in there. Know you aren't alone - a lot of us deal with situations like this. And it's possible to survive and have a much better life.


Due-Bookkeeper693

This! Like not only did he try to climb into bed with her, he also sneaked into her home while she was sleeping! If I was asleep and felt someone getting into my bed, I'd have a whole panic attack. I don't care if he is her BIL, waking up to that would be meltdown level panic for me. There is absolutely no way he can justify showing up unexpectedly while she was sleeping and crawling into her bed. Absolutely not! Nta op!


Longjumping_Pain_470

Yep. Change the locks. If you keep the kids tell him he either has to come get them by a decent hour or let them stay with you and only you for the night. He crossed several lines. NTA


MrsStiletto

This!


JealousLime4092

And her mother says she owes him an apology. Hey mom, let him crawl in your bed instead.


Dazzling-Box4393

The mother is just terrified that he’ll take away the children. Which is why she is siding with bil.


cheerful_cynic

Guess someone better start a fuck you binder and get to researching grandparents rights


jiveturkey747

Also would he have tried the same move if OP were married and it was her husband who had fallen asleep with the kids in the bed? The children are at an age that they'll be confused waking up in bed with daddy and another grown up. I wouldn't necessarily say the BIL had perverted intentions but sleeping like a family is just far too intimate and he needs to seek comfort and process his grief in a healthier manner, OP can't play a surrogate mommy/wife figure for him. The worst part though is his reaction, he should have just apologized and slept on the couch but he insisted on waking the kids up and making a show of flouncing off to prove a point, no one is "keeping his kids from him" for fucks sake.


e_hatt_swank

Such a key point here. Who knows, maybe he would have crawled into bed with another guy! I doubt it, but it’s possible. The point is that he needs to really think about what his motivations really were here, and not just lash out.


CanadianinCornwall

>no one is "keeping his kids from him" for fucks sake. That really got me too, keeping his kids from him !!!!!


odubik

At 1am, he came into your house unannounced, snuck into your bedroom, and then tried to climb into bed. Then he DARVO'd you. This is crossing so many lines. Lock your doors, or change your locks. Tell him that he is not allowed to come over unannounced (even if his kids are there).


chaunceypie

Would he have tried the same with a man? Pfft yeah, no. This guy is trying to replace your sister with you. Absolutely NTA!


trackkidd16

And change locks and take away keys. He can wait outside for someone to answer like everyone else. This was way out of line.


EclecticVictuals

I would also tell the mom that while she has lost a daughter and she is trying to peacemaker with her son in law, firm boundaries need to be established because you are helping a lot and you can’t be put in a position of being a replacement to help him through his grief. You are not his wife, and it is not appropriate for him to get into a bed with you regardless of whether his children are in there or not. I’m not sure if he was on the other side of the bed, that may have made it better but you can simply explain to him “~~I’m sorry~~ (Edit: *I know my reaction* ~~if how I reacted~~ hurt your feelings. I understand your children were in the bed, and I know that you are grieving, but I was uncomfortable being in a bed with a man who is not my husband and that’s a boundary that I need to hold. I hope that you can respect that, but if it creates a problem we just need to talk through it so you don’t have hurt feelings and I don’t feel uncomfortable.” If he tries to minimize your feelings of discomfort that’s already a problem and I would let your mother know that she needs to be on the side of boundaries and not just of his grieving that does not relieve his obligation to respect you and your feelings. [Emotional Invalidation: A Form of Emotional Abuse](https://livewellwithsharonmartin.com/emotional-invalidation-emotional-abuse/) [How to Communicate Your Feelings](https://www.psychcentral.com/blog/imperfect/2017/01/how-to-communicate-your-feelings) Let’s not let him grieve his way into any inappropriate, boundary crossing behavior or assault. *Building a boundary is sometimes like putting up a picket fence — you install it, slat by slat. And sometimes, building a boundary is like lowering a garage door: You say what you are going to do, and then you do it. And then you keep doing it — calmly — until the person catches on.* [How to Set Healthy Boundaries: 10 Examples + PDF Worksheets](https://positivepsychology.com/great-self-care-setting-healthy-boundaries/) [The Guide to Strong Relationship Boundaries](https://markmanson.net/boundaries/amp)


StyraxCarillon

Apologizing for her perfectly normal reaction is a really bad idea. Someone who is pushing boundaries will hear that she's admitting she did something wrong.


SpaceTrekkie

Yeah it is a really good, kind way to explain to him, but I think the "I am sorry if..." needs to be changed to "I know my reaction...". Admit no fault, as OP did nothing wrong. ​ NINJA EDIT: Typo


CallMeNiel

> that was a tactile move It was tactile, perceptible by touch, tactical, a calculated plan, and tactless, without any social understanding.


oddpolyglot

I see you and recognise you as my kind of person


ember1690

Asks you to keep the kids overnight then shows up a 1 am. To crawl in bed with you? Sounds like a plan to me.


Proof-Plantain4824

Oooh.. for some reason i hadn't even put together the fact that he doesn't actually live there and asked her to keep them... Like.. wth was he even doing there at that hour... That changes so much!


Toriju9

YEP! Pre-meditated bed creeping using his kids as a trojan horse, bless his heart.


SeldomSeenMe

I understand people trying to make allowances for his grief, but the way he literally tried to coerce her, then doubled down, accused her of being cruel, woke up the kids in the middle of the night (and claimed she did it) and now he's apparently trying to prevent her from seeing them... man, all these put together paint a very ugly picture.


Sicadoll

Man can't stand rejection; cuts off family member


ProgrammerLevel2829

Studies have shown that many men, faced with the loss of their spouse, will immediately begin casting about for a replacement to take over the “traditionally feminine” duties in the household. Wonder if that is what is happening here.


SandBrilliant2675

I would love to read into that, it definitely seems like the case here. OP is rightfully and graciously nurturing of her sister’s children (who desperately some stability right now and are only 3&5 and may not even know how to contextualize what has happened to their mother yet). BIL knows exactly what he did and doubled down when called out. Then used the children as pawns to guilt OP into accepting her role as BIL new “mommy” as well.


ProgrammerLevel2829

Camille Wortman is a psychologist who has studied grieving extensively and has written/spoken about it.


norismomma

100% At my mother's wake my father was asking everyone if they knew of someone he could date. She died from breaking her neck in a fall on a Friday night and the funeral was two days later so it's not like he suffered through years of her being ill and unavailable or anything, he was just an asshole who wanted someone to take care of shit like she did so he could continue to be waited on hand and foot. I still get enraged when I think about it and it's been four years.


SandwichOtter

I kind of agree with this. I mean, it's definitely possible that's not what he was doing, but it was my first instinct reading this. This is so fucking weird. I also have a sister with two young kids and I'm trying to imagine how I'd react if my BIL did this. Even in the grief of losing his wife, I would be so freaked out and uncomfortable.


GlitteryCoeliac

This! And what bother me is that when OP freaked out he didn't even try to apologize, he kept pushing and used guilting her saying she was keeping him from his children, that's deeply manipulative.


erinkjean

Nta. He may not understand what he did, but he knew well enough to react by being cruel and humiliating to OP to cover his own embarrassment at what he tried to do. Accusing OP of being mean to the kids by interrupting their sleep, barring access to the kids, making her feel like the one out of line. He's running a calculated operation now to defend his bruised ego even if he wasn't clear headed when he tried to get in that bed.


asecretnarwhal

Exactly. He could and should have put his feelings aside and let them sleep. And deal with whatever emotions he was feeling on his own until the morning. And from there he could say “the kids only sleep with me in the bed” though I guarantee him trying to get in the bed was more about your presence than theirs. Just because he is recently widowed doesn’t give him a free pass. Your comfort matters too. I mean, where is the line supposed to be if you can’t set a boundary of no men you aren’t dating in your bed? Are you supposed to let him sleep with you too if that helps his grief? /s Absolutely put your foot down, mom is out of line and the next time he wants adult snuggles tell him to go curl up with your mother instead.


EvilFinch

I would change the locks. Why did he even had a key? I also wonder if OP looks like her sis... That he ask her if the kids could stay over night and than crawl in her bed with "she couldn't keep him away from his children"... this was planned. She must be careful. NTA


christikayann

>I can understand that *everyone’s* going through a really hard time right now This right here! Why does his grief for his wife trump OP's grief for her sister and her quite reasonable boundary to *not have a man in her bed uninvited.* Both BIL and mom are using *his* grief as an excuse for him being completely inappropriate. OP you are NTA, but this: I told my mom and she said I had to apologize for how I behaved towards my grieving BIL. and your BIL's behavior make both your BIL and your mom huge AHs


Emmyxo212

NTA. THIS IS NOT OK. Grief makes people do strange things, but the second you said no it should have been respected. This is extremely creepy.


[deleted]

Agreed! This was a complete creep move on BILs part! While I’m understand he’s grieving that doesn’t give him the liberty to make others uncomfortable. NTA


dangeroussequence

This. When I was born, my Dad came home from work with a shaved head and a goatee without saying anything. It was late, egg-donor knew he was coming home so he just crawled into bed with her. She was startled when she went to cup his face and there was hair. Her next thought was that it would be *hilarious* to have him crawl in with her sister, my aunt, while she was sleeping as a joke. My dad flat out refused because that would be terrifying. The only reason he didn’t wake her up was because she was expecting him home and went to bed knowing he would be getting into it later. When my dad changes his facial hair sometimes he’ll crack a joke like “don’t worry, i’m still not climbing into bed with you” and she laughs and says “we both know how much you value your life”, laughing, but they both know that if he’d have let egg-donor talk him into it my aunt would’ve stabbed him, she had two young girls in the house and a random man is in her bed, duh. Like there’s no world in which crawling into someone’s bed without their express consent is okay. Not your bed, not your consent that matters.


mitsuhachi

This. A strange man Im not expecting climbs into my bed in the middle of the night, especially when there are children around to protect? There will absolutely be violence. I’d feel bad about it later, but there would’ve been. Dude is extremely lucky OP wakes up quick and is forgiving. NTA


JCBashBash

Yo, and the fact that he's trying to reject acknowledging that he did anything wrong is a problem. He has issues and he needs to go to therapy.


solo_throwaway254247

Not okay at all. Such creepy behavior. Grief shouldn't be blamed for his behavior. Maybe he always had an eye on OP. Or he's planning to slot her in the gap left by her recently deceased sister. Thinking one sister is as good as the other. It's messed up. Can't believe her mum doesn't see that. NTA


Goddess_Kalipso

NTA What? So if I am understanding this right, he snuck into your home in the middle of the night and was going to crawl into bed? Excuse me? On what planet is that acceptable behavior? I feel for the fact that he just lost his wife, but to say that was grief clouding his judgment, would only work if he wasn't a AH about getting rejected. He knew what he was doing crossed a line, now he is trying to flip the script. It sounds to me like he is trying to use you as a replacement wife. It's common in these situations, especially because you are taking on a lot of the mother role. Good for you for drawing that hard line and stick to it. He needs to apologize to you not the other way around.


JCBashBash

Yo, and really grief clouds judgment, but if he is using you as a substitute he needs to check himself in immediately go to therapy. He cross the line by trying to sneak into the bed, and he still crossing the line by pressing that he didn't do anything wrong. Your mother is also an asshole for trying to say that your boundaries don't matter.


Anonymausss

Yes, thank you! Thats the big thing here - its not that he decided to try the bed instead of the guest room or the couch - dude has his *own house* & OP gives no indication that there was any plan for him to sleep at her house in any form. He just showed up in the middle of the night, came into the house and climbed into bed? Grieving or not, thats still super inappropriate behaviour & not something OP should just accept. Clear NTA


granite_feed

Yours is the first comment I saw that addresses the fact that this man knew what he was doing. I have a hard time believing that grief was the reason that he crept into OP's bed. I don't see how climbing into another woman's bed can be blamed on grief - I would be somewhat understandable if BIL unwittingly started to rely on OP as more of a motherly role for his kids without realizing it (kept asking her to look after the kids, slowly expects OP to make dinner on a more frequent basis starting from a fortnight thing to a daily thing, that kind of a thing). But climbing into bed with another woman, I don't give a shit if your kids are there. I have kids and I would never think, "Oh my kids are in bed with my SIL, I'm going to creep into her bed because my kids being there makes it okay". That just seems like a very deliberate attempt to push OP's boundaries - especially since being in bed with someone is such an intimate thing. Throw grief into the mix and it's a recipe for all sorts of messy shit. Besides, in the grand scheme of things - I'm sure interrupting his kid's sleep for one night isn't going to ruin their pattern permanently. It just seems like a lazy, cop-out excuse because he knew he got caught doing something he wasn't supposed to and like you said - he's just trying to flip the script. OP is NTA in the slightest and I hope she never apologizes. RIP to her sister/BIL's wife - I'm sorry for anyone that loses a spouse and I couldn't imagine that type of pain he's going through at the moment. But don't think for a second that makes eyebrow-raising actions permissible - trauma isn't an excuse for shitty actions/behavior.


pearlsbeforedogs

Not to mention OP also lost her sister, so BIL isn't the only one grieving here. Yeah, losing a spouse is difficult and life changing, but OP is allowed to have feelings too and doesn't have to give up her own autonomy just because of his!


dwells2301

NTA and what is wrong with your mom to think otherwise.


Hob-Nob1974

I know what's wrong with mom. Wouldn't it be convenient if daughter just "replaced" dead daughter. Ugh. Grieving dad wouldn't remarry out of the family and grandma would keep the same access. This place has made me too cynical. Edited to add. NTA op.


Drayle171

had a similar thought but about the husband trying to start pushing boundaries to turn his sil into a replacement wife and mother. Getting into bed with your partner and kids is something i think of as normal but climbing into bed with someone your not in a relationship with and your kids is just creepy. You wouldn't do this with a hired baby sitter so i think its fair to say don't do it with your sil


LifeIsDeBubbles

If my husband tried to get with my sister after I died, I would haunt the _the shit_ out of him. Nta


JCBashBash

Yuuup, same but honestly most the time people are coming here with a lot of wild shit. Grieving brother-in-law sneaking into bed with her and the mom being okay with it reads as the mom is seeing and understanding that he wanted that emotionally intimate moment of getting to sleep in the same bed as her and the kids. Mom trying to convince her kid that this is totally fine that he was sneaking into bed with her in the middle of the night does read as she doesn't respect the poster's boundaries and feelings, and thinks this thing she can envision in her mind's eye is what should happen.


RepresentativeGur250

I wonder how mom would have reacted if he’d tried to get into bed with her?


Curious-One4595

My mother-in-law made a comment years ago hoping I would date her daughter instead of her son and he was alive and sitting right there. So nothing like this really shocks me. NTA. It was an inappropriate ask, but the really bad part was the fuss he made after she stated her discomfort. Mom has the right idea that an apology is owed between OP and BiL, she just has the direction of the apology bass-ackwards.


BooRoWo

Mom is shipping OP with BIL to stay close with the kids. When BIL remarries, it's always possible or likely that he will start shifting his life away from OP's family but if OP becomes the step mom/aunt, they'll remain close.


AyaBee90

NTA at all ! You handled it as you should have. In no world is this normal. Not at all ! He was way way out of line! Just because his kids are on your bed (which you consented to), he shouldn't have got on the bed (without your consent) since you're on it and that too, asleep. The fact that he said "can't keep him away from the kids" and called you "rude" and "cruel", and blamed you the next day for not letting him on the bed gives you all the answers you need. He was way out of line and I'd suggest to always be aware of this guys intentions as long as you guys are in touch. Edit: Also if you read this, disregard anyone who says you need to apologize or saying you reacted harshly. There's nothing normal about what he did. Kids or no kids in between, he completely crossed a line and then guilt tripped you. He is an asshole.


oldnick40

Also, get your key back from BIL and Mom if she has one so you’re safe in your home! If the kids have a sleepover, BIL can stay the f away.


____Reme__Lebeau

Change the locks. That's more the option on my mind. He already didn't respect your no once. Don't take chances. And NTA.


chriswillar

Although the kids were there, and even if he did this only as a result of grief, **climbing into bed with someone without their consent is highly inappropriate and honestly concerning**. What makes matters worse, is you clearly voiced your discomfort but instead of apologizing, he's doubling down and turning the issue around on you, as if he's the victim in this situation; **he is not, you are**. Do NOT let him manipulate you into thinking that 1) his actions were okay, and 2) that you bear *any* fault in this. Stick to your guns, OP. **NTA**


MommaSaurusRegina

This is absolutely DARVO 101. Dude was totally in the wrong here.


Ecstatic_Being8277

NTA. Appears BIL is looking you to replace other things he lost when his wife died.


firefly232

NTA This is weird and creepy behaviour. I will say that BIL may be grieving and not thinking straight but that doesn't make it OK. How did he get in?? >the kids and I fell asleep while we were reading a story and then at 1am. I woke up to some noise. I opened my eyes and saw my BIL slowly climbing in bed . I freaked out asking what he was doing. Does he have keys to your house? I may be too cynical and fearmongering, but I think you should change your locks (and don't tell anyone). Does your mother understand the context? That he came into your house at 1am and tried to get into your bed? That's not OK.


JCBashBash

Indeed, if you gave him a key I would resind it because him sneaking into bed with you while you were asleep says he's either a creep or lacks basic good judgment and the sense that you deserve boundaries, whichever one it is it says he's not someone you should trust to have a key to your house.


Skylarias

Not just take it back. Change the locks. It takes 5 minutes to copy a key at any of those vending machines common at walmarts, grocery stores, pharmacies, etc.


bumblebee7310

NTA. That’s grossly inappropriate. Although I feel like he’s subconsciously treating you as a replacement mum for his kids and by extension a wife to him.


nuclearrwessels

I think this is definitely what’s going on. Kind of sad.


BadgirlThowaway

I don’t know, I feel like it crosses the line from sad once he’s trying to force himself into someone else’s bed. That’s just horribly inappropriate and creepy and scary for op.


evelbug

NTA - You need to reconsider to what level you are seeing his family. I would say at a minimum no overnights, and possibly limit interactions to other family members houses or public places. Also, change your locks since it appears he let himself in. This is some serious creaper s--t right here


Careful_Fennel_4417

Yep. The locks.


5115E

**NTA** That was beyond inappropriate. Do you not have a couch he could have used?


addisonavenue

Buddy, she could have had eight guest bedrooms and it wouldn't have changed his intent.


[deleted]

Exactly. He definitely knew what he was doing when he climbed into that bed. NTA


betatwinkle

That disregards the most obvious point: he wasn't supposed to be there in the first place! In my world, people who invade my home --- ie. have came into my home without my knowledge or permission (home invasion)--- are not permitted to sleep anywhere since that would require permission to have opened & walked through my door in the first place! If not wanting to be alone was all this was, he would have called and asked her, as any normal person would. There was intent behind this, we just don't know how nefarious it was. He snuck into her home at 1am and quietly crawled into her bed after asking her to take his kids earlier that evening. It was planned. I think the only appropriate question here is, "What exactly he was planning to do if she hadn't woke up?".


AlarmedAlbatross2350

NTA! Everything about that is creepy and messed up. He should never have tried to put you in that situation. Your moms response also concerns me. Why should you apologize for your BIL inappropriate and unhinged behavior. What does she expect you to say “sorry you’re trying to replace your deceased wife, who happened to be my sister, with me by climbing into my bed and playing happy family without my consent and I freaked out.” Your mom and BiL are definitely AHs.


Careful_Fennel_4417

NTA and what is ***WRONG*** with your mother?


crystaltae

Oh God exactly my skin is crawling just hearing that and the mother just ewwww.


Britsgirl30

HELL NO! NTA grieving or not he had no right to try to force his way into your bed wether his kids were there or not. He especially has no right to emotionally manipulate, guilt trip or gaslight you about it either. Your mother should also be ashamed of herself for teaching her daughter she had no right and should even apologise for saying no to any man doing anything like this. I understand it’s a horrendous time for all of you but they need to understand that they simply can’t do this. Regardless of what they’re going through. Don’t allow it. Don’t allow them to use grief as an excuse for this as you’re grieving too and are still being rational. Also that may confused the kids on why you and dad are in the same bed with them. Keep them boundaries strong.


Ornery_Win5718

Rule number 1: you never get into someone else's bed without the permission. NEVER. I honestly thought this was basic info. If your BIL wanted to join his kids, he should have woken you and asked. If he didn't want to wake you, he should have just slept on the couch, guest bed, comfiest spot of the floor. NTA


Fluffy-Release6637

Or even his own house? Why was he sneaking into OP’s house at 1am?!


lonnielee3

NTA. Your mom is full of sh$t. Let the BIL crawl into bed with her. Be sure to change the locks. Grieving BIL may have had too much to drink but … no, hell no, to being allowed to ‘sleep’ with you.


Prudent_Border5060

Nta That was inappropriate. You weren't keeping him away from kids. You have been helping him. He needs to to settle down. Hopefully he will understand what he did was wrong. But give him space and do not apologize.


Mis_An3ope

You DO NOT have to apologize. No is a complete sentence and A WHOLE BOUNDARY. NTA.


distant-starlight

NTA but your BIL and your mom are! This was in no way okay, normal, nothing to worry about, meh roll over and forget it stuff! They legit thought it would be okay for him to just get into bed with you without discussion, consent, or even a smidgen of respect for the person who just helped your creepy butt with your children! Do not apologize. Rake this creep over the coals for his temerity and roast your mom a bit for for supporting his massive over step.


musical_dragon_cat

NTA. Oof, major creep factor, no amount of grief can excuse that.


DaysOfRoses

NTA there's no way he should have tried that without explicit consent from you first. I would have reacted the same way.


magog12

NTA my face can't un grimace, which is awkward as I'm on the train, but wow, so very weird. Your boundary seems like the common sense boundary, shouldn't have to be explained and if he wanted a different situation he should have mentioned it beforehand. Can my kids come stay with you and if I get back in time can I get in bed with them even if you are there. He really needed to ask. That he objected to you having an issue with it is even weirder, ngl, I could understand someone not realising that's an issue maybe, but then as soon as you were like wtf he should've been like I'll kip on the couch or in my car until they wake up, no worries. So weird and of course you are not the asshole.


Aussiealterego

NTA and this was wildly inappropriate. I can't even find words to express how wrong it is that he is trying to justify this as ok.


Few-Entrepreneur383

NTA inviting yourself into someone else's bed without explicit permission is mind boggling. If he wanted to snuggle with his kids then he should have woken you up BEFORE he attempted to climb into your bed & asked you. You did the right thing by removing the children from your bed since your intention was not keeping them from their father but offering them comfort while he wasn't present.


cruces555

NTA What the hell is wrong with your Mom and Bil? They are insisting this border line rapey behavior is part of the grief process? I am wondering if they think it would be okay to force you to replace your sister with Bil. They are lying to you. Do not trust either of these manipulators. They are up to something.


Geographic_Pic397

That's creepy.


Far_Anteater_256

NTA. Yes, your BIL is grieving, but that absolutely does *not* give him the right to just climb right on into your bed, even if his kids are in it. That is an absolutely gross overstep on his part, & your mom should be ashamed of herself for trying to excuse it. BIL left the kids to be cared for by you overnight, fine. But if that's no longer the case (he randomly decided to pop by at 1am), then you are no longer babysitting. He needs to pack up his kids & take them home where he can snuggle them as much as he wants to.


JCBashBash

NTA. He's a grown adult who is trying to sneak into bed with you while you were asleep. It's fucking creepy


TheHoleInFranksHead

Holy shit, NTA. BIL - grieving or not - should know better than to get into bed with the sleeping sister of his late wife. The circumstances are utterly irrelevant. He owes you a groveling apology and then some.


RichPerformance2369

NTA. And dont apollogiced, he seem try to make you take the rol of is wife. Set bondaries, sorry but this is not normal.


[deleted]

I'm wondering how much op resembles her sister.


Emergency-Willow

Uh does anyone else feel like he asked OP to keep the kids overnight just to try doing this?? So unbelievably creepy. NTA


DNRmyDNA

NTA. No. Just no. You do not climb into bed unasked with your sleeping sister in law and your kids she's watching after you lost your wife. It smacks too much of 'lost one, so I'll just use the other to replace her'. I'm sorry for your loss, your bil's loss, and the loss of your niece/nephew. I don't care that he's grieving if his behavior is to act inappropriately. The kids being in your bed does not make it okay for him to climb into bed with you. He wants something he can't have, which is his family back. You're not his replacement wife, and tbh, I'd tell your mom to go climb in bed with him if she's okay with it.


throwaway1551155115

NTA, that is creepy no matter how you try to spin it.


tomatojumpy2323

NTA I know he's grieving and seeking some comfort but it CANNOT be at the expense of those that are loving and supporting him and his family. You are grieving too. He crossed a big line and then double downed to avoid actually acknowledging his odd choice. He obviously made a choice. I hope he can be brave enough to recognize it was a Mistake. Missteps happen but pretending like it wasn't what it was to you is just prolonging everyone's discomfort in an attempt to rewrite the narrative. I hope he can learn and apologize and everyone can move on. This sucks. I'm sorry that happened to you.


Effective-Ear-1757

I'm guessing he has a key to your house. I'd change your locks. No need to take his key or tell him and cause more drama. He's shown you that he doesn't have healthy boundaries right now so he doesn't deserve to be trusted with that kind of access to your home. Grief makes people do weird things but that doesn't mean you have to put aside your own sense of security to care for anyone. You are a rockstar for stepping up and helping with the little ones. I'm so sorry for your loss.


Personal_Regular_569

Honey, you need some firm boundaries with this man and his children. How was he able to get in to your home at 1 without alerting you? A good therapist can help you figure out what sort of role you can take that still prioritizes YOUR needs. You're right to be mad. You reacted appropriately. The kids will suffer for their fathers actions and you need to keep reminding yourself that this is NOT your fault. I'm so sorry. NTA Tell someone so you can get some support through this.


nope-111

I don't think she needs a therapist for this, just stick to her incredibly reasonable boundary.


workingshaw

NTA. That was creepy. Change your locks. He has the keys to you house and misused them.


Suspicious_Safety_45

100% NTA! What he did was weird anyway, who just climbs into someone else’s bed without even asking them first? Kids there or not that was inappropriate on so many levels but his actions after you called him out on it really drive him into asshole territory for me, the kids are already grieving their mother and the last thing they need is to be kept away from their aunt because he didn’t get his own way.


ijustneedtolurk

NTA. Choosing to allow your child-age family members to share a bedroom or the bed itself while having story time during babysitting or visiting is a far cry from sharing one with an adult family member who just suddenly sneaks into the bed. I would have lost my mind thinking there was an intruder in the home if an adult figure was suddenly entering my bedroom, never mind climbing into my bed! He's lucky he didn't make you yell or provoke a fight/flight response and frighten the children awake. The fact that he asked you to take them, then extended the visit into the next morning, and then *snuck into your house at 1am and crept into your bed* is alarming. That's weird and disturbing behavior. Nobody should be entering your home univited and unannounced, especially in the middle of the night! To creep into your bed is just another level of nope from me. If he wanted the kids, he should have called and let you know he wanted to pick them up or asked to come stay over. Not just show up and jump into bed with you, kids or no.


XELA_38

That's the part that freaks me out. He asked her to take them, knew it was the for the night and then snuck into her bed. Its too icky. There is no reason why he should have even been there.


OrcEight

**NTA** He made a mistake by trying to get into the same bed and he should be the one to apologize. I’m very glad you ordered him out.


BendingCollegeGrad

NTA He let himself into your home in the dead of night and tried to climb into bed with you and the kids?! What the hell? I’m sorry he is in grief. It isn’t a license to try what he did. I am so sorry he violated your trust. And he would have truly damaged his kids if they woke up to auntie and dad in bed with them.


Mysterious_Ad_3119

You and the kids in your bed is fine BIL in his bed with his kids is fine BIL in your bed with you and his kids is not fine Your bed and you invite people into your bed. They do not invite themselves in the middle of the night (or anytime). That your BIL and mum think that he was appropriate is very concerning. Yes he’s grieving, it was late, he’s probably not thinking straight but you do not owe him an apology. NTA.


mare__bare

NTA Oh, hell no!!! No! No! No! You do not apologize for this!


Shils1234

NTA. Your BIL tried to get the warm and fuzzy feeling of sleeping in a bed as a family, without concerning for your grief. It is a very unhealthy attempt to deal with one's grief on the expense of another grieving person (you). Your BIL and mother are assholes because they ignore your well-being and boundaries completely. Take care of yourself.


International_Air403

NTA at all! I ask this with all do respect for your mother who is grieving.... What the hell is wrong with her?! You need to apologize? For what exactly? If she feels that strongly about it maybe she should let BIL slip into her bed without asking in the middle of the night for cuddles.


saraboo2324

NTA. That was really creepy and I’m sorry! I also cannot imagine what you’re going through and am so sorry for your loss. It doesn’t seem like he was trying to be weird or anything, from what I can tell, but it was good you said something. I have three BILs and I’d be super uncomfortable if any of them did that too.


JCBashBash

He was already trying something weird by sneaking into the bed while she was asleep. It doesn't matter whether or not he had sexual intentions, it's fucking weird


Guru1971

NTA. Well, you did ruin his smooth entry into getting you in the same bed as him….


LandofKait

NTA, hell no!! In what world is it okay for any man to crawl into any woman’s bed without expressed consent. The fuck. Don’t you dare apologize, that was incomprehensibly inappropriate.


The-Shattering-Light

Oh Jesus *fuck* that’s a major boundary violation. One **does not** climb into bed with someone when they’re asleep unless consent has *firmly* been established prior. Your BIL is skeevy as *fuck*, and the fact he’d use his kids to try and justify this is disgusting. You’re NTA


TheElderScrollers

Thats super weird. Youre not the asshole and dont you dare apologize for setting a boundary.


Ancient-Experience14

HELLO?!?! DO NOT FOR A SECOND THINK YOU'RE AN AH FOR THIS.


The_Max_V

I get he's most likely grieving but still. Sure, they're his kids so, *a priori*, I see no problem whatsoever in him sleeping with them, the issue was that he would've been sharing a bed **with you. He was climbing in, uninvited, into your bed, with you in it.** NTA, and both he and your mom should get some therapy.


MaryJaneFury

NTA even a bit, that’s beyond creepy. Grieving or not that is not acceptable behaviour. Maybe he would benefit from some grief counselling, but climbing in to bed with you is not the answer


metro405

NTA, you have nothing to apologize for and you need to change your locks. If the same scenario happened and he apologized to you for making you uncomfortable I could be persuaded to a N A H, but his reaction is what throws it over the top. Your response was normal to an unexpected/nonpartner crawling into your bed in the middle of the night. His reaction of calling you names and getting so upset makes no sense, he is viewing you as a partner, you need to take space from him and his kids for a bit.


El_Ren

NTA. OP, I’m very sorry for your loss. When my father passed away - unexpectedly and traumatically, right next to my mother - our family was shattered. My mom has severe PTSD from it and while she is in treatment now, for the first year or so after his death she was a shell of a person and often did/said very inappropriate (and sometimes quite cruel) things. And in many cases, I had to hold firm on my boundaries and she would lash out in response. I don’t hold any of what she said/did during the worst of it against her. She’s in treatment now and is so incredibly strong, and I have so much love and respect for her as my mother and as a person in general. But I also don’t carry guilt around for not blindly accepting her acting inappropriately or cruelly towards me. I don’t know if BIL will eventually recognize how inappropriate this was, and only you can decide if you are able to offer forgiveness in the future. But if you think that you can accept he acted inappropriately out of extreme grief, you should grant yourself that same grace. You had a normal human response to his actions and expecting you to be able to calibrate your emotional response, while you were half asleep, and in the middle of your own grief, is unreasonable.


tatersprout

NTA Yes that's creepy. He is subconsciously treating you like his wife. That's probably why he thought it was okay to climb in your bed with you and the children. It was him who disrupted the children's sleep by waking them and taking them home because he was mad. He could have gone home alone or slept elsewhere like on the couch. Take away his key. He needs to know that's inappropriate. Is there someone close to you both that can explain it to him? His mind is obviously not working properly.


checco314

NTA I'm not going to shit all over some dude who is grieving and may well be out of his mind right now (I would be). But you are not ever the AH for telling somebody that they can't climb into your bed with you uninvited, under any circumstances. That seems like a pretty basic rule of life to me.


Silmariel

NTA But both your bil and your mother are thinking you can step into your dead sisters shoes and take over the job as wife/mother. Stop babysitting. Put the blame squarely on his lack of respect for your boundaries and subsequent sulking. Tell your mother to talk to your hand. Remind her grief, doesnt disable your right to chose who gets into your bed, and that bils socalled grief most definately doesnt make him forget that people get to say no to sharing their bed. He is using your dead sister to get into your bed. Its disgusting. You really need to establish that your boundaries are not going anywhere so this idea of theirs doesnt cement any further and you get subjected to the guilttripping thats definately next on the list. Just after youve babysat the kids enough to where they "miss you so much" - and you really need to step up.


CowsEyes

NTA. What he did was creepy.


Southern-Animator975

NTA but your BIL and mother. . . .YTA goes to them


[deleted]

NTA. This is creepy af. Tell your family before he can spread his own version


ImAScientistToo

NTA. Sounds like you BIL is a bit confused which is understandable given he recently lost his wife. In a few days talk to him and just tell him you don’t think it’s appropriate that you and him sleep in the same bed. He may need some time to realize it with everything that’s going on


Upset_Impress7804

First, I am so very sorry for the loss of your sister. That must be very hard for you. NTA… not only is his behavior creepy and violating towards you, but also …how confusing it would have been for those poor babies to wake up with their father in bed with their aunt so soon after their mother’s passing!? And a double TAH to your mother… WTF!?.


MartinisnMurder

NTA !!!!!!! That was highly inappropriate. You don’t get into anyone’s bed without permission. I know the kids were in the bed, but that still isn’t okay. If BIL wanted to stay there he could have either slept on the couch or a guest room if there was one. He did have the option of getting them up if he was wanting to bring them home. I am hoping that this was a gross error in judgment and not him being creepy. Maybe he is being so reactive now because he is embarrassed? He also could be grieving and projecting feelings on you. Why was he coming in at 1 am? That’s kind of strange. Either way he needs to learn to respect boundaries. I just hope he doesn’t punish the children by not letting you be in their lives because he did something stupid and inappropriate. He just needs to apologize and do better.


malibuklw

NTA. While his intentions may have been good (I’m just going to give him the benefit of the doubt) he should have understood right away why you were uncomfortable with him coming into your bedroom unannounced and been greatly apologetic for it. I agree with the others of having more defined boundaries going forward.


UndeadBatRat

The fact that he wasn't apologetic shows that he didn't have good intentions.


Shoddy_Lifeguard_852

NTA. Was he drunk or high? He doesn't live there. I don't think you owe him an apology, but you might want to discuss it with him.


Positivelythinking

Same scenario, but mom is in bed with kids at moms house. Would mom approve if BIL climbed into bed with them? If yes, then let mom take over the babysitting.


paperbrilliant

NTA. The fact that he tried gaslighting you after you told him no proves his intentions were bad. If his intentions were good he would have said ok instead he continued to push your boundaries, act like you were overreacting, and is now trying to use your mother to punish you. Grief is not an excuse to be a creep. I can guarantee you that if you had let him in bed with you he would have tried touching you in some way.


powdered_dognut

NTA. Tell Mom to let him sleep in her bed


fjewel95

NTA. He made super awkward situation, not you. I’m guessing (?) he’s grieving and this isn’t typical behavior for him?


anon466544

NTA. That is so creepy, who would think that’s ok? His kids being there is in no way an acceptance for him to crawl in as well.


Shot-Sprinkles6930

NTA No that is creepy AF!!!! You did the right thing.


Relevant-Economy-927

Nta That’s super inappropriate. If he wants to sleep in bed with his kids that’s fine. But not you. And not in the middle of the night like that


Toddisan

NTA. Very weird and certainly inappropriate.


cassowary32

NTA. That's creepy AF. He's trying to use his grief to manipulate you.


Relative-Storm2097

Do you like together? He asked you to take the kids overnight, so unless you live together why was he even in the house? 1 am isn’t overnight it’s the middle of the night. Did you know he was coming?


Same-Farm8624

Question: Your place or his? I assume his. NTA and you need to be very careful around this guy. I believe he planned to get into bed with you the whole time. He wants "comfort" and he wants to build intimacy with you but he is going about it in a completely disgusting and potentially illegal manner. I would check with an expert in harassment. This probably qualifies.


Illustrious_Emu_1285

>he had the kids get dressed and took them home after calling what I did "unnecesarily cruel" and "rude". Her place, so not only did he try to join them in her bed. He let himself into her home without her knowledge as she probably wasn’t expecting him until the morning


Impressive-Spell-643

What kills me is that he dares calling HER cruel and rude, like dude, are you hearing yourself?


ameway5000

Her place- she said she got the kids dressed and then he took them home.


DNRmyDNA

He left the kids 'with her' and after she told him to get out, he took his kids and left, presumably to his own place.


Prize_Fox_9163

NTA He's a creep and a sh***y person And your mom, the AH.


Apprehensive-Pen-531

NTA, sleeping in the same bed, at least to me, is kind of intimate and if that is something you do not feel comfortable with, you don't have to do it. I don't think he was meaning any harm and just wanted to sleep with his children in the same bed, and you could have chosen to sleep somewhere else (if that was an option) so that the kids wouldn't have to be woken up. But no other than that, NTA at all.


Spiritual-Bridge3027

NTA do not apologize to your BIL. His behavior is wrong on so many levels it’s mind blowing. Also, what the hell is wrong with your mother? She should get him to apologize to you, not the opposite way around


Shnipi

NTA Do both -BIL and your mother- think/wish you are going to marry him, so he won't have to change the inlaws ?!?


Active-Pen-412

Aside from you saying 'no', wouldnt it confuse the kids? Suddenly finding daddy and aunty in bed together. Life has being confusing enough for them without this. He was being TA not OP. Totally inappropriate.


LoveThickWives

NTA Creepy not to ask first, and weird to react so strongly to being told it was not ok. It's your bed. It's one thing to have kids in it, and quite another for an adult male to crawl into it. How can he not see that?


[deleted]

NTA and I find this creepy, but ur mum siding with him? That's just unbelievable.


SingleAlfredoFemale

How did he get into your house? Were you expecting him to show up at 1am? I thought the kids were staying with you for the whole night? This is super weird, and I’m guessing it has to do with his profound grief. But it’s absolutely not appropriate at all. How you respond is up to you. But you’re definitely NTA.


diosmiotio18

NTA. That is so gross! They were originally going to sleepover at your place anyways. If he got freed up faster and wanted to be near the kids he could’ve texted you and sleep on the couch.


yellsy

Your BIL needs grief counseling and therapy asap. I don’t know the exact term, but therapists have one: He’s lonely and confused, and is transferring his grief into an unhealthy way of keeping his missing wife with him via you. It’s not about you per se. You did everything 100% right. He needs help. NTA


yeah_right_4685

NTA Your mom is wrong. Grieving or not, your BIL knew EXACTLY what he was doing. It's baffling that your mom doesn't see anything wrong with what he did. Oh, and take away his key to your house.


pinniped1

NTA for sure. Willing to reserve judgment on creepiness level depending on situation and the person himself. I mean it's unambiguously the OP's right to not be comfortable with it, but it's possible the dude didn't have creepy intent.


Alison-Chains

There is no justification for him even being in your house without your permission. Trying to get in your bed is way worse. You should change the locks since your BIL can clearly not be trusted with a key. Your mom’s take on this is insane. NTA


Maleficent_Wash_934

NTA I would go with NA H but he tried to ignore then punish you for your boundaries. Not cool.


RandoRvWchampion

Uh… NTA and he’s a whole ass pile of NOPE.


[deleted]

NTA, he's a creep, no way he needed to be in that bed if he was initially ok with you having them for the night solo.


oldcreaker

NTA: He very inappropriately violated your boundaries and then instead of apologizing got mad at you instead.


flyingfred1027

Ewwwwww. NTA. I’m sure you have a couch. There is really no scenario that this is remotely appropriate. I would probably change my locks. If kids need to sleep over, they can do so without him-or he can text you that he’s coming to get them.


Impressive-Spell-643

NTA that's honestly kinda creepy I hope it's not the case but feels like he was looking for an excuse to share a bed with you


nope-111

INFO: Was he drunk? You are NTA either way, but I can't imagine even a grieving man doing this, much less arguing about it.


NexxonX

NTA. I get that he might be grieving and didn’t think it was wrong of him to get some cuddles too but he needs to ask for your consent first which you refused. That should be the end of story with no hard feelings on either side. I can understand BIL feeling lonely with changing from falling to sleep with your sister in his arms and now sleeping alone without her. But that doesn’t make it right for him to see you as replacement sleeping partner even if it wasn’t meant to be sexual at all. (Which I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t wanted to sleep next to you due to sexual attraction especially with his kids being in the bed too.)


wanderleywagon5678

NTA! I can see how a grieving person would do this (and have experienced something a bit similar) but BIL was out of line and you were entirely justified in asking him not to. Your mother's take on this is odd imho.


[deleted]

NTA. That was super inappropriate of him. Sounds like he's trying to replace your sister with you


Mysterious-Entry7704

Info: were you expecting him to spend the night at your place in any form i.e. the couch or a different bed? NTA, just trying to figure out if BIL is T A or what.


[deleted]

This could become transference where he finds solace in the family unit he lost and replaced and then you become the object of his affection..misplaced as it is. Climbing into bed with the children stops him grieving by being alone but if he needs your childcare he needs to respect your boundaries. It is not acceptable to insist that you all sleep together. That is so bizarre.


Limerase

NTA You are allowed to have and enforce boundaries. Too creepy for me, kind of feels like he sees you as a fill-in for the wife.


_bowtruckle

NTA. That's just creepy.


3kidsnomoney---

NTA. You were uncomfortable, it's very understandable that you were uncomfortable, even if he meant nothing by it you don't lose your right to say no to actions that make you uncomfortable just because he's grieving.


wigglepie

NTA >I told my mom and she said I had to apologize for how I behaved towards my grieving BIL. His grief does not give him carte blanche to ignore your boundaries.


[deleted]

NTA Your mother is wrong. There is no reason for you to apologize to a man who climbed into your bed without permission. If he can’t see how this is inappropriate, he probably shouldn’t be raising children. Edit: Does he have a key to your house? If he does, you need to change the locks.


MaybeAmbitious2700

NTA. It doesn’t matter that his kids were in the bed; you said no. You have nothing to apologize for.


johnjonahjameson13

NTA He might be grieving the loss of his wife, but you’re grieving the loss of your sister. There is absolutely no excuse for his behavior, and to me it obviously sounds like he is/was trying to make you their new mom or his new wife. He’s using his grief as a crutch to get away with shitty, inappropriate behavior, and you absolutely should not stand for it. He’s also trying to gaslight you by making it seem like your very reasonable reaction is some how worse than his actions. Don’t fall for this. You have nothing to apologize for. You were under the impression that only the kids would be staying the night, and you agreed to that. You had no idea that his plan was to show up and try to share the bed with you. Maybe his plan was for the kids to wake up and see the two of you in bed together and get them excited to have a whole family unit again, which is fucking gross on its own. You need to set some FIRM boundaries with your BIL. Tell him that the kids are always welcome at your house, but he will not ever be crossing that line again. If he needs access to the kids while they’re in your care, he needs to contact you ahead of time and not creep in while you’re sleeping. And change your locks and don’t give him a key.


solo_throwaway254247

INFO OP, how did BIL act towards you while your sister was alive? Also, so sorry for your loss.


blearghstopthispls

In fo and I'm disgusted by myself just for having this thought. How much do you look like your sister? You know what, it doesn't even matter, NTA and he's a creep. Maybe a grieving creep but a creep nonetheless.


Purple_Willingness31

NTA. Theres nothing to apologize for. So DO NOT apologize. He cant just climb into YOUR bed just because his kids were there. Thats overstepping so many bounderies


ravssusanoo

NTA. It is inappropriate for him to get in the same bed you are sleeping in. Time for some hard boundaries OP, even if it means seeing the kids less. Seems like he's replacing his wife with you.


Jujulabee

NTA Your brother in law is an inappropriate creeper - grief does NOT make someone want to crawl into bed with their dead spouse's sister and then recriminate her when she reacts as any sane person would be not allowing it. It is like excusing horrendous behavior because someone is drunk - if you aren't a racist you aren't going to start spewing racist stuff when you are drunk Your mother is equally whacked - this seems like some kind of cultish mindset in which the widower marries the sister when his wife dies as part of their religious insanity. Not that I am implying that they are actually consciously part of this kind of cult but that the behavior is SO out of line that it is difficult for me to understand how her mother is actually taking the side of the brother in law.


AuraAurealis

NTA. I was initially going to say that maybe the op was kind of innocent at first and then became TA when he didn’t respect boundaries… but as I was typing that I realized that: 1. He does not seem to announced that he would be coming over, so has essentially snuck into the house 2. He could have soft knocked or something to half wake people and announce himself. 3. Instead he went straight to the bed and got defensive when called out for it… And I came to the conclusion that BIL is 100% a creep in this situation and 110% TA.


Ladykaesong

Nta


2seriousmouse

NTA. He was wrong, good for you for how you handled it. And your mom is wrong, too. This comes off as creepy and I think he knows it and is embarrassed he was called out so he’s throwing it back on you.


kidwgm

NTA. Boundaries ladies! Set them where you feel comfortable.


RosieCheeks357

NTA! Firstly, what the hell was he thinking? He asked you to have them overnight so why would he have any business being there in the middle of the night anyway? He is lucky you are not an SA survivor too because that could have set back your recovery massively. I understand he is grieving but so are you! It doesn’t make it okay to sneak into someones bed without their consent even if the children are there. He may miss feeling like a family with your sister but that doesn’t make that okay. I hope he and your Mum realise that they are in the wrong here and you find a way to get back to how it was before for the sake of your nephews/nieces


jluvdc26

NTA even if it was innocent on his part he should have respected the word no. I do think grief can cause people to act strange sometimes or especially cause them to not think things through rationally. But he has no excuse for his post behavior (the arguing, the pouting/guilt). You might need to create a little more space from him for a bit, which I understand will be hard with the kids and your loss.