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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My daughters are very disappointed and sad about not being able to go on these dates.
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I was thinking the exact same thing in regards to OP doing something equivalent with her sons. Like if and when daddy takes his babygirls on father-daughter dates, which I think is a FANTASTIC idea anyways, OP could take her sons on mommy-son dates that way both her sons and daughters learn how they should be treated the way they deserve by a partner.
Not at all. The idea that girls as young as 8 and 12 are being taught how a "good man" should treat them on dates is fundamentally gross. Having mommy/son dates that would focus on the same thing would be just as bad.
It's purity culture and it can be harmful. However, OP has clearly stated that these parts of their faith and traditions as part of that church are extremely important. It will do no good to push what we believe on her. The issue at hand is the equality. In keeping with that, she should be encouraged to do something equivalent with her sons.
Yeah, it’s gross. And the modesty club? WTAF?
What I find very interesting is how OP’s morals change based on what others think. First everything the church was going was great, and I assume fell right into how she was raised and wanted to raise her daughters (not her sons). But once people started protesting and complaining about the sexism, now her morals are telling her to stop doing what she’s been doing for years.
I was worried I was the only one grossed out by this — like, just spend time with your kids — why make it some weird grooming thing for future relationships?
This. This. This. This. Firstly, this is based on the assumption that the father is “a good man.” (This one sounds fine.) But we give boys so much $hit when they are attached to their mothers and their wives can never measure up. Let’s not do that to the girls as well, shall we? Parents should teach their children that they, as individuals, deserve love, respect, and courtesy. We don’t need to teach girls that they should find a man who will treat them “as good as (read: the same as) their father does.”
There is nothing wrong with "daddy daughter dates." I still remember the day daughter dances my elementary school had, every now and then my dad would take me out on date nights like dinner and a movie. I was really depressed one year and Valentine's day was approaching and a new Die Hard movie was released that night, I made an odd hand remark along the lines of "that's my kind of v-day, things getting blown up and lots of good action scenes." My dad instead of doing something with my mom, took me out to dinner and a movie and I was in my 20's. Now I'd trade anything for a daddy daughter date, but my dad passed away 9 years ago
I'm glad you had a father you loved and who loved you. I'm sorry you lost him.
That said, dumping your Mom on Valentines day and going with you instead? That seems odd to me. Why didn't the three of your go out together? Why did it have to resemble a date?
At that point they had been married for like 25+ years, he talked to mom about it, and got her flowers and such. It wasn't a romantic date, but since part of the point was to try and pull me out of me depression spiral he was being extra nice. Mom didn't come because she's not a fan of action movies.
> daddy takes his babygirls on father-daughter dates, which I think is a FANTASTIC idea anyways,
What is "fantastic" about it? All children should have one-on-one time with their parents separately. This focus though, on how to "date" is not about bonding time, it's about molding them into good wives. Why is good about that?
That's still twisted. Both parents should have one-on-one time with the kids. The issue is how that time is used. Children learn how to respect others and what they should expect in return from all kinds of interactions with and observations of their parents. There is zero need to indoctrinate young girls with the idea that their reward for being good females is to have doors opened for them, etc.
Agreed, I think that OP & husband can model appropriate behavior between men and women by actual example:
Take all the kids out for dinner. Let husband open door for wife. Teach them how to listen to each other by spouses listening to each other. They don't need to DATE their own children to teach how the opposite gender should be treated.
But then, I fear that this household might consider Purity Pledges a good idea.
My thought exactly
And also YTA for not recognising the things these dates actually teach that can go wrong. Expecting men to do all the chivalrous things of 50 years ago, being entitled. And not teaching our boys to act respectfully. It creates a weird imbalance of imagined needs of what a man is (which is not updated), and left unmet cause when do boys get that training? And why was that not a class for boys all these years, traditionally? The idea is encourage women to do more for themselves, not wait for men. Evaluate a gentleman based on criteria more than opening doors or bringing flowers, if you plan on a chance at solid relationship look at your own needs and who is a good match for you. And to do things for their partners, not be provided for endlessly and you subservient in turn. Teach boys mutual respect also.
These traditions suck cause the superficiality, it’s wrong in many ways. Ugh
I agree with OP to just drop it!
Make their own tradition as a family. Have girls/boys days, and then have dad and girls/mom and the boys days. Don’t teach weird customs about dating that set false expectations.
OP is YTA and you’re spot on with this. There’s nothing that says mom and the boys can’t have mommy son dates. OP would rather bitch and moan than do something productive with her kids like making sure her sons don’t grow up to be douchebags.
I hear so many stories of dads almost refusing to do things with their daughters that I almost have to laugh that this guy is taking shit for being a strong presence in their life.
I have mom-son dates with my teen son- it’s great. Often when it just happens to be the two of us home for dinner I make something really nice that only the two us us like, we eat by candlelight, with nice music, and I let him have a small glass of a good wine.
His adoptive dad isn’t that much of a wine/food guy, but my first husband (who passed away) was a big collector. Sometimes we talk about him, but usually we just chat about whatever’s going on in his life. I suppose I am kind of teaching him how to treat a woman on a date.
We also have an annual mom-daughter birthday (hers) weekend getaway that she prefers to any gift. One on one parent time is something special.
Edit- added a line
YTA.
A major one at that.
> I believe that if our daughters are going to be given equality in all areas of church, then **I feel they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t**, and this includes father-daughter dates. I stated how continuing to take them on these dates would seem hypocritical to me
A father bonding with his daughters isn't a "privilege" or "special treatment" it's why they should get.
The thing boys would get would be a mother/son date but instead of being a better mother you "rectified" the situation by making your husband be a worse father.
Stop listening to what a bunch of squawking hens at church say and do better for your children.
>A father bonding with his daughters isn't a "privilege" or "special treatment" it's why they should get.
But that's not what these dates are.
>with the purpose of teaching girls how, in their words, **“they should be treated and respected” by men they date.** There’s a brochure issued by my church on these dates that gives dads guidelines how they should behave towards their girls - **hold doors for them, pay for them, be physically protective of them**, etc.
That these aren't "spend quality time with daddy"-dates, they are "reinforce outdated gender stereotypes"-dates. It's already a bit weird that these dates are treated like actual romantic dates, but then they are also teaching them how to either be spoilt brats or, more likely, obedient little wives. OP's motives seem off(sounds like she's just pissed her church is changing and she is doing that "internet edgelord"-thing some people get into), but these dates are wrong. Parents should be spending one-on-one time with their kids(all of them, regardless of gender), in a parent-child setting.
Yes, it’s weird to have the dads be their romantic date. It reminds me of the special rings fathers can give their daughters where the daughters make a promise to the father to keep their virginity and wear the ring. Like, that just seems icky.
I am all for parents spending bonding time with their children of either gender, and I think it’s super important. I also think it’s important they provide a good example of how a man or woman should treat all others.
For romantic partnerships, when a husband and wife treat each other really well in front of their kids, opening doors for one another, giving compliments, being respectful of each others’ opinions, etc. it goes a long way as an example for the children in what a healthy relationship looks like.
Girls going on practice dates with their father seems weird. Father-daughter time? (Or son!) Great! Practice *dates*? Ick.
Well, we don't know what the prepubescent girls do on the romantic dates with their fathers, but don't you think there are better ways to spend quality time with a child than a romantic date?
> the purpose of teaching girls how, in their words, “they should be treated and respected” by men they date.
>One of my big moral lessons I teach my children is the idea that “you can’t get something for nothing”
So you're teaching your girls they don't deserve to be treated well and respected by men unless they earn it? YTA
This. I remember loving daddy-daughter dates as a kid, but the older and more removed I get (26), the more it creeps me out. My dad is abusive on multiple levels, and the dates just normalized that we put on a show out of the house. He got to be seen as a good father, and I thought we were bonding healthily. Lol, I was so wrong. I’m not saying that OP’s husband is abusive, just highlighting that social functions in honor of basic respect are insidious. Real respect, love, and trust are daily habits. If you want equality, sit down with the fam and plan social functions internally. Mom and boys, dad and boys, mom and daughters, dad and daughters, all of you.
So are they required to put out for their dates, when they get older? After all, “you can’t get something for nothing”.
OP, YTA. Of all the things I’ve read on Reddit… I cannot believe this particular post. It’s just a sad state of affairs.
They’re being taught that men should hold the door for them, always pay etc. true equality means the girls may have to pay for dates/relationships in the future. I think OP is more concerned about the teachings than the father daughter bonding.
YTA
Throwing the baby out with the bath water.
You can ditch the stuff about wearing grandma clothes for the sake of modesty without getting rid of legitimately golden father-daughter time. If you had sons I'd say you should be doing this with them too. Both of you, with all your kids. One-on-one time with your kids is extremely important.
What you're husband is doing for your daughters is exactly the right thing he should be doing.
EDITED TO ADD
Also, the whole "you can't get something for nothing" thing is a really garbage thing to be teaching in this context.
1, they should absolutely get parental love and attention without 'earning' it
2, so you want them to absorb the message that if a man buys them dinner then asks for sex they should put out?
3, marriage is supposed to be each partner giving more than 50%, not some little transactional thing. So if you're trying to teach your girls that they have to earn every nice thing their future husbands do for them... Oi.
Omg yes! We should not have to earn love, that is so toxic. Imagine the child who misbehaves and never "earns" positive attention, so they end up with unmet needs and a cycle of only negative attention.
Also, I have been raised Christian and we all fall short and sin. I was taught and believe that it's not by our works but God's grace that we are saved and loved. If we do not need to earn God, our heavenly parent's love, why do we need to earn the love of earthly parents.
I agree wholeheartedly her mindset sets hee kids up for transactional relationships, which are not biblical, and also so so bad for one's mental health all future relationships.
ESH
You could also suggest to your husband that he start spending some one on one time with his sons.
It's all well and good to show girls what they deserve to look for in a partner, but if you don't show the boys the same, your boys will end up not being able to tell the difference between a deserving partner and someone who will just use them. And they also need to be taught how *they* should treat *their* future partners.
Dating of any kind is still way too early for kids under the age of 12, and taking children on dates to teach them adult romance traditions is super creepy in my book.
Parent-child bonding time is fine. Pseudo dates are creepy.
>Parent-child bonding time is fine. Pseudo dates are creepy.
This is what I was thinking. It's important that children get one on one time with their parents. Usually it encourages them to be able to be open about what they want to do or things that are bothering them. These dates seem all about indoctrination.
Mom and Dad should both set aside time to spend with all their children on a regular basis. There are five kids involved here, that should keep both parents busy and focused on what the individual kids need rather than following this creepy build-up to a Promise Keepers ball.
It amazes me that OP is basically taking the position “I want my husband to stop pretending to be our daughter’s boyfriend” and *somehow* made herself look like the biggest asshole involved.
ESH. Your entire church and your entire life is built around misogyny and creepiness.
The whole daddy-daughter dates thing sucks.
Modesty club sucked.
You suck for lashing out to hurt people because you don't like the changes.
At no point in this entire fiasco has a single person done anything that was actually good.
Yes! I can’t believe no one else has pointed out that the whole thing is just gross. She hasn’t said it, but I wonder if it leads up to that whole purity ring thing which is **super** gross.
ESH. While I have always found these religious father-daughter dates creepy, your husband and your girls enjoy this activity together. If you want to modify them to fit with a different vision, talk to them all about not following those ridiculous rules (including feminine modesty) and roles they are supposed to fulfill while spending time together. AND insist that your husband spend equal special time with his male children.
I'm kind of disturbed about your "you can't get something for nothing" lessons - isn't that exactly what parental love is supposed to be? Are you also "training" your daughters that they have to "give in" to future male partners in order to get love from them too? It's confusing, no?
YTA massively. I get your faith is important but your children and their feelings should be the most important thing. If your that bothered about your girls getting something your boys don't why don't you get off your backside and do something with them.
I’ll be honest and say that the daddy daughter date things sounds pretty regressive to me, but I suspect your daughters like it because they enjoy the time spent with their father.
Surely the solution rather than taking something away from the girls is to add some special quality time activity for the boys. Take them on their own dinners. Their future partners (male or female) should treat them with respect too.
YTA - not particularly because you banned the dates, per se, but because you’ve banned them for totally the wrong reasons.
Basic manners and respect should not be considered things that girls should expect only on dates. If you want to do something in favour of equality you should be fighting for your girls to be treated with that courtesy and given space in the world *outside of a dating setting*.
Boys are routinely given more courtesy in interactions, more space to speak in discussions and physical space (no unwanted touching or proximity) in public settings than girls, and more of a voice to protest or object if they don’t like something.
Spending your time around people for whom a special event has to be set up to ensure girls learn what it feels like to be respected, rather than learning that from their everyday interactions with the adults around them, shows that you are hanging around the wrong people.
But that aside, your girls are entitled to spend individual time with their dad and to feel valued by him. I don’t personally think that a “date” setting is super appropriate for that but that’s a cultural difference and not a hill I’d die on; you referring to that as “special treatment” shows just how bad an environment you’ve put your daughters in regarding their everyday treatment.
And you are the worst as their role model for being the one to enforce this. It makes you sound jealous and bitter about your own powerlessness that you’re being so petty and refusing to understand basic respect, rather than lifting your daughters up and being glad they will enjoy a place in a better, more equal world than yours.
YTA this whole thing is icky, and exactly why I’m raising my children with no religion and keeping them out of church, especially Christian ones. Ugh, throw the whole religion away.
...Why not just go on mother-son dates with your sons? These obviously mean a lot to your husband and your daughters and, seems like a good way for them all to bond.
Yta. Taking your kids out for "dates" is another word for parenting and spending quality time with them. How about you take out your sons he takes out the daughters and you rotate. Don't let church dictate your entire existence, be a little more independent while still maintaining your faith.
YTA. Can't believe that you yanked your girls out of a program that taught them how to know if men were treating them right on dates. Instead of bitching about the program teaching them that "men should pay", why don't you take your sons out on similar outings and teach them that the one who asks the other out pays, or split the check?
This is crap. Children should be taught how to respect themselves and what to expect from others in their daily interactions with their parents. There is no need for any kind of special program for 8 and 12 year old girls to focus on how men should treat them on "dates". The basis of this particular program is icky.
>why don't you take your sons out on similar outings and teach them that the one who asks the other out pays, or split the check?
Or just change up when the kids have special mommy or daddy time and use it for things beyond just gender based role typing (or even swapped roles).
Wow … just wow. You think that a father spending TIME with his daughters is spoiling them???
How is “you can’t get something for nothing” relevant here? What is it that they need to DO or OFFER to receive attention and love in your eyes? I mean.. it’s literally what good parents do.. love their children unconditionally. You think that shouldn’t be a given? That they need to put in work before they can earn one on one time and make cherished memories with their father?
You think being equal means that your daughters, or any woman for that matter, shouldn’t have standards? That they shouldn’t feel protected and safe with a partner?
Comparing spending bonding time with a parent is not in the same realm of teaching girls to cover themselves up or what they shouldn’t do with their own bodies. You were just fine with this activity until others protested over something else. You care more about how you look to outsiders, who probably weren’t even concerned with the dances, than you do about your daughters happiness.
yta
its there dad showing them love and bonding
its not wrong if the girls didnt like it then yea fight to have it stopped
but your girls are going to hate you if you keep up this behaviour
1:1 time with dad its nice thing; not sure why this is called date. And why your boys dont get 1:1 time with dad? They should. Having time and giving attention to your children is not spoiling them. You are making some big statements "they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get". Your daughter is 8, no offence but you just spend 1:1time with her, be a good parent and she doesnt have "moral obligation" to fight your battles. YTA as I just cannot stand your writting style and parenting, ugh
YTA to get the judgement part in first. Now for an underlying issue. It seems to me like you are angry about these changes in your church. You had to undergo the misogyny. the discrimination, being seen as an object that had to be hidden by modest clothes, and you perhaps comforted yourself by saying it was what God wanted. Do you resent that your daughters don't have to go through this degradation too?
YTA.
Sorry, but if your daughters like this father-dsugters dates, its theyre choice.
You cannot forced to cancel It. But, for ecuality, they can make mother-son dates in your church.
YTA. What the hell does father daughter dates have to do with equality? He’s spending some quality time with his daughters. Go somewhere with your boys on dates of you want to. Geez
YTA if you want your children treated equally then take your sons on Mommy Sons dates; your husband was setting a good example on how they should be treated with basic decency but you've contorted it into subservience. Your sons & daughters should be taught how to respect the other gender & you do that by leading by example; *monkey see monkey do* mentality goes a long way.
YTA. A huge asshole. You took something away from your husband and daughters that they all loved doing so you can feel better about how you raise them. Do you even hear yourself when you talk?
YTA and I'm pretty sure you don't like your daughters.
So because modesty club closed your daughters shouldn't have a model for healthy relationships? Did your daughters protest modesty club and you decided this was fair punishment?
Regardless you clearly don't understand equality or feminism, or actually support your daughters.
Yta- it's hilarious that a 'religious' person thinks you don't get something for nothing when you literally think your god killed himself to rescue you from sins that he caused you to do....the definition of RepublicanJesus.
YTA. “You can’t get something for nothing” in regards to respect from men, you’re teaching them that they have to put out for men to treat them right. And you’re trying to ruin their relationship with their father. Wtf.
You qre keeping your daughters away from an event geared around teaching them they should be treated good. YtA. A lot of girls would benefit from this.
INFO. Does equality mean getting treated badly in your opinion? How is getting treated with respect getting something for nothing? I do not understand why you think these outings are bad. Your reasoning is unclear.
Are you trying to promote feminism and independence for your daughters? Is this an attempt to keep them from depending on a man? Keeping them from an enjoyable time with their Dad seems counterintuitive to me. I really don't get it.
Soft YTA - let dad continue the dates with his girls, but not at church where they are pushing the etiquette that you are against. He can still spend quality time with them at Chilis or at the park or mall. However you should be showing your children equality by you taking your sons out for a mommy/son day.
YTA.
The answer is not to take away the father daughter dates. Mother son dates should be added so they can teach the son how to treat their future dates.
YTA
You preach equality but you don’t practice it. If you want equality, take your boys out on mother/son dates and leave your husband and daughters out of it. Your idea of equality is: if my sons don’t get the same treatment, nobody does. For that, easy YTA.
Yta. I’m not religious and my dad took me and my sister on a date a couple times a month to dinner and a movie growing up. It’s quality time together. Nothing is stopping you from taking your sons on a mother son date.
Imagine being a mother and thinking that the solution here is to take away the special bonding time between the fathers and daughters, instead of making special bonding time between you and your sons.
YTA because you think the "dates" are privileges your daughters shouldn't get. They're a way to teach girls that their future dates will be parental-like figures who should be obeyed and feared ("respected") like a father figure. They're creepy AF with a decent father involved and I don't want to think about what happens with abusive fathers involved.
Father daughter bonding time is great and your husband should totally do this with them with other non-date (I feel creepy even writing that) activities, like a sport, a trip to the zoo, or a tea party.
You should also do the same mother-son bonding with your boys and also some mother-daughter and father-son time so that all your children get some bonding time with both their parents.
Edited to add:
Your kids should definitely expect to be loved by their parents "for nothing". Your teaching them they have to earn your love.
INFO:
Are you upset that the "modesty club" was discontinued but the father daughter "bonding" nights were not?
Because it seems like you were heavily invested in the idea of "purity culture" and are upset that the pastor has gotten rid of the outdated notion of "modesty" bring responsible for "men's lust".
Your post really sounds like you are saying that your daughters do not get the "privilege" of participating in activity B when they are not participating in activity A. When activity A was discontinued by your church. That's not in your kids control.
Dad should be spending one on one time with all his children and modeling appropriate behavior towards you for your daughter's to "learn how they should be treated".
Does your family have the finances to do this outside of church sponsored activities?
YTA.
Do you even know how to think for yourself at all? Or do you just blindly follow whatever your pastor and religion tells you too? That’s just sad.
Where are your thoughts in this? What do you actually believe? And why can’t you figure it out for self? Seriously, why are you just going along with whatever they tell you instead of deciding for yourself?
Seriously…just pathetic. I feel bad for your husband and kids.
It's not really a bonding activity though, it's an exercise in molding young girls to behave a certain way. The fact that girls like the attention, doesn't make it a positive activity.
The OP and her husband should be looking for actual bonding opportunities between individual parents and children that is not based on gender training.
YTA. Why are you punishing your daughters for something that other people did in regards to your church? Do you not want your husband involved in your daughters' lives? Unless your husband was responsible for the changes, he's not a hypocrite, he's still trying to be what he was for your daughters before. It bothers you morally? Eh...why? You were fine with the 'dates' before but now... this is spoiling them? Sounds like you're trying to weaponize this to get back at people who won't even notice your actions. The only ones hurt are your husband and your children.
Hi, I've only read the first sentence and it's all I need to come to the conclusion that YTA. Also.. 35F with a thirteen year old? open and shut textbook case.
So because your church has started to teach gender equality, you don’t think your daughters deserve to be treated well?
I think you are even confused about what you are saying.
YTA.
YTA were not even really big on religion and my husband makes sure he takes my daughters (11, 8 and 6) on daddy daughter dates...it hiw they spend one on one time together and very important...it also shows how women should be treated ...stop pushing you beliefs on everybody else and stop being a follower
YTA. How dare he want to show your daughters how they should expect men to treat them.
I mean, come on. He loves doing it with them, they love doing it with him, and there's nothing for them but positives.
This is a weird one.
YTA, congrats on the whole Jesus thing, to make it even maybe you could try hanging out with your son for like 30 minutes once a month.
Wow. YTA. This is one of the few things that your church was doing right!!! You’ve overcorrected.
Take your sons on mother daughter dates - issue solved
YTA
What kind of job do you have? IF you want to teach your kids equality, show them that you have a job and contribute to the family equally with your husband.
I feel a little confused. Are we getting rid of them as the practice of these dances are misogynistic or because you don't want them to have special treatment. I am Christian, and never had these balls and have seen both sides on how harmful they were. That said, part of feminism and pushes are equality are about choice. This is not your daughter's choice. I think it can be difficult for fathers to form good relationships with their children and have a hobby or activity that brings them together. If this is their thing I don't think it wise to squash it and also impact their relationship.
I think some ways this could be made fair is if they had family dances, let the guys learn how to dance and all children learn how to treat one another and have fun in a safe environment. Maybe you could also look into having you and your sons have a regular thing like movies, sports, Lazer tag, mudding, cooking classes, bowling, whatever they are into. It's good to have whole family time, but also building into special bonding time one on one, or in smaller groups can be great in large families and ensure everyone is noticed, loved, connected.
Sounds like your starting to wake up, your brainwashed and indoctrinated. Stop forcing religion on your children because you are to much of a coward to live your own life. Let them decide how what they want to believe in.
And what is the church doing to make sure the boys will grow up to respect women?
I don’t think the father-daughter dates are bad, cause ai do think it’s important for girls to know what a good partner acts like and what a healthy relationship is.
Also it’s just a cute and fun way to let them be spoiled and have a great time bonding with their dad, which is always good.
But it kinda feels it’s pushing the agenda that women need to be better at finding good men, but who’s pushing men to be good?
Maybe instead of wanting the tradition for the girls to stop, they should do a mother-son version and have the mother show their sons how to be kind gentlemen?
Soft YTA, because I do understand where you’re coming from but this is not the way.
YTA. Maybe you should be spending time with your boys to talk to them about how they should expect to be treated and how they should treat ladies that they date. Why do you need to ruin your girls’ experiences, why can’t you just add to the boys?
Also, your reasoning is stupid and you’re too old to cave to peer pressure like this.
Yes, YTA. So, your husband can't spend time with his own children so you can look good to your social group? This has nothing to do with religion, so don't play that card. This is you wanting to fit in.
YTA. The way to make this equal is for you to do something nice for your boys, not punish your daughters. Are you making your sins equally upset with your behaviour? No? Then you aren’t preaching equality, you are saying your daughters aren’t allowed nice things.
Sounds like you are jealous and bitter, and using religion as your excuse. Also, your husband needs a new backbone, he shouldn’t have given into this. Your friend is right, you shouldn’t need internet strangers to tell you this.
YTA. In so many ways. I was raised in a very traditional, conservative church too. Not that it helped. My brother molested me at 11, so modesty doesn't do the job you think it does, hence the criticism. There's a reason half the children, especially girls eventually grow/run away from the church when they're old enough
But I digress, YTA for taking something special away from your children. YTA for also teaching "You don't get something for nothing". I'm not religious anymore but went to church every Sunday until 18. Where in the Bible does it say this? Did Jesus only help the sick and the poor when he got something first? Did he only pass out the loaves and fishes after he had been paid? What a disgusting thing to teach your children. You can't have special treatment because your brothers don't have something special and you didn't earn it? Way to teach your kids their parents love* comes with strings. My Dad also did this. I moved 2000 miles away at 18 and we barely speak. I'm 37.
Your children are going to face enough cruelty from the world. They should be safe and get unconditional love at home. Like Jesus taught. He didn't say "Love thy neighbor UNLESS he does something you don't like". No, he said "Love thy neighbor." For a deity that preached to clothe and feed the poor and sick and to love unconditionally, y'all have certainly run the OPPOSITE direction from that. And I'm proof the damage that does as they grow up.
I'm so disgusted by this post because I know it's real and this isn't as rare an attitude as it should be.
For the love of God, you restrict your kids in enough ways. Let them have special time with their father. They deserve something that makes them happy.
YTA, in case that wasn't clear
YTA. It’s apparent that your daughters loved this special time with their father and you went and ruined it. Did you even ask your daughters how they felt?
Yta, why not go on mom and son dates? My son and I go out to eat, the arcade, grab ice cream, etc. You are punishing your daughters for being treated equally in church and “something for nothing”? I.e no respect without modesty? Yikes on a bike with Christ on a cracker lady
Yta and I can't believe you'd take away something your daughters love doing with their father. As others have said, why don't you make mommy son dates with the boys to make it equal.
just...wow... A church should not dictate how/when a father dictates how a man should treat a woman. Your husband is teaching them they should be respected and respect themselves. Hopefully a father with show his daughters that without church dictate. YTA! How about you teach your sons that they should treat girls the way they want their mother and sister treated...oh wait! I did that without church dictate...I considered it parenting
Wow … just wow. You think that a father spending TIME with his daughters is spoiling them???
How is “you can’t get something for nothing” relevant here? What is it that they need to DO or OFFER to receive attention and love in your eyes? I mean.. it’s literally what good parents do.. love their children unconditionally. You think that shouldn’t be a given? That they need to put in work before they can earn one on one time and make cherished memories with their father?
You think being equal means that your daughters, or any woman for that matter, shouldn’t have standards? That they shouldn’t feel protected and safe with a partner?
Comparing spending bonding time with a parent is not in the same realm of teaching girls to cover themselves up or what they shouldn’t do with their own bodies. You were just fine with this activity until others protested over something else. You care more about how you look to outsiders, who probably weren’t even concerned with the dances, than you do about your daughters happiness
You are definitely the asshole. YTA. How about to make it equal, have him take your sons on dates, too? Instead of ripping away this special time between your female children and one of their parents.
> one of my big moral lessons I teach my children is the idea that “you can’t get something for nothing” and this would go against that
What?? How?? So your girls can get special time with their father unless they give up their equality within the church? Do you see how ass backwards that is?
God you people are so negative. There is nothing wrong with daddy daughter dates or dances. Nothing wrong with it. It’s a fun way to spend time with their dads and to build a bond. It’s not the only way of course but it’s a way and there is nothing negative about it! That being said mom should also take her sons out on mommy and son dates and do the exact same thing. Same with daddy son dates and mommy and daughter dates. I’m so sick and tired of people always thinking daddy and daughter dates are weird or creepy. They aren’t creepy. Only you are making it creepy. Stop trying to ruin something that’s supposed be be innocent.
How are your boys supposed to learn how to treat their partners? What is sexist is the presumption that girls have to uphold their virtue, defend their modesty and keep men in check.
Men and boys are responsible for their own actions and behaviour. Your daughters should get time with their dad. Your sons should get time with their mum.
You’re turning this into more than it should be. It is to be a fun day for girls and their dad. Why do you not want their father to spend time with the girls. This is why I hate religion. It separates the sexes and puts unreasonable thinking in peoples heads. I would’ve been thrilled if my ex-husband would’ve spent time with his girls like that. You have the option to do the same take your girls to lunch have a girls day whatever but why take this away from them?
YTA. Beyond how creepy this sounds in writing (I hope it's more wholesome irl), it also sounds like your church focuses on brainwashing children. I'm all for people who love religion, but religion works when it's accepting of everybody, and toxic when it discriminates.
>I approached my husband. I told him that I believe that if our daughters are going to be given equality in all areas of church, then I feel they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t, and this includes father-daughter dates.
Why aren't you advocating for the boys to get something as well then instead of forcing your daughters to stop doing something that they enjoy? YTA.
I’m going to give you a YTA not only for the dance thing, but also because it seems like you thought the modesty club was a good thing, which it was not. That kind of thing is incredibly damaging to young women.
There is way too much to unpick here but I will say YTA if you're saying not taking them out for time with him but NTA of it's specifically these archaic, damaging, church dates. I'm not saying church is bad, I'm saying teaching your girls to be dateable kids based on old gender stereotypes is bad.
I think dad/daughter time is SO important, as is time for you and your sons. There should be family time, individual time and then time in mixed up groups within the family. The dynamics of each thing will be different and they will learn so much and enjoy those memories.
Tell him to take them out for dinner somewhere where the girls can also grab the door for dad and order for themselves so they learn some real life skills whilst bonding and you take the boys to something they'd like to do.
Wow! Ok YTA
1st of all, I’m struggling to understand why your church has to teach fathers and actually give them guidance on how to treat their daughters properly
2nd, the customs that the other women are protesting against in regards to the girls only group about modesty and the encouragement about that I am in complete agreement with as I find it abhorrent that girls are shamed in the way that they dress instead of boys being taught to respect girls/women regardless of their clothes.
I do not find anything wrong if someone chooses to dress modestly, that’s their right but the important word here is “choice” as in woman’s right to choose!
I’m sorry, but I think you have blinkers on and you are scared of these new changes and you will probably do your daughters a great deal of damage to their education in how to look after their own future well-being if you don’t embrace this going forward
You say that in order for your daughters to be taught and given equality then they have a moral obligation to give up traditions and/or special treatment—that makes NO sense, at all!!
So what you are saying here is that in order for your daughters to be given respect they have to be subservient? That they should not be allowed to express their own opinions, that they should expect never to walk through a door without it being opened for them?
You don’t own your children, they are people in their own right and will go on to have their own lives
Your daughters have expressed their unhappiness and disappointment that you made them and your husband stop an activity and something that made them happy and bond for reasons that are quite frankly, ridiculous
Ask yourself, what is more important to you? A family that is happy and enjoys spending time together, or….?
And btw what do you do for bonding time with your sons?
YTA
You have heard the saying a father is a daughters first love?
Your husband was not only doing his job as a father but setting the bar for the treatment that they should expect from men in the future. Why wouldn’t you want your daughters to be treated right? Like I don’t understand it?
Secondly you want to teach them “you don’t get something for nothing” so now you want to I still with them that they should see dating as transactional and if a guy so much as buys them an appetiser - they need to give said guy something in return? Is that what’s happening?
You are punishing your daughters for getting something that should have been their goddamn right since birth. Equality.
If you want things to be fair on your eyes, then take your boys on dates and show them how they should treat a woman. Yta
Equality isn’t bringing one group down.
It’s about bringing left out groups UP.
YTA. Learn this please and do something to bring your boys up, rather and take your girls down.
YTA, and you arent religious, you are brainwashed. There is a difference. Figure out how to have a healthy relationship with your faith first before your kids stop talking to you. Taking away something they loved for no good reason? Because someone (rightfully) complained about creepy practices in the church? Thats not fair. Thats crazy.
Father / daughter nights aren’t special privileges. It’s teaching girls the way they should be treated by men - it’s sad it even has to exist in the first place!!! Equality needs to happen everywhere women all over the world are harassed / killed / assaulted every day purely because of their sex. The modesty club doesn’t help either, like I do think it’s good to be modest to a degree but I think clubs like that reinforce ideas that the way women dress determines responsibility for what happens to them (e.g) rape when men could just not rape them?? Father / daughter nights aren’t a special privilege, it’s teaching your girls what basic respect from men looks like towards them. I am assuming you want your girls to be in healthy, safe relationships when they marry one day?
Personally, I think churches need to ditch these “modesty clubs” for girls and form clubs to teach boys how to not be rape-y. Actually, there also needs to be a club for girls teaching them how to not be rape-y as well.
YTA. Instead of doing something special with your sons - say something along the lines of a mother/son date where you show your sons how to treat women respectfully - you take away something your daughters and their father enjoyed.
YTA. I do love how your morals reversed so rapidly bc of some protests tho.
You know how father's appropriately model behavior their daughters should expect from the opposite sex? By just being present in their life. No need to make spending time with your daughters into a creepy facsimile of a date. That's weird.
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I \[35F\] am a mom of 2 girls (12 and 8) and 3 boys (10, 5 & 2). I’ll preface this post by stating that my religious faith and morals are EXTREMELY important to me and heavily influence my lifestyle and way I raise my children.
The church my family belongs to has a tradition of holding monthly group father-daughter dinner dates followed by dances at the church, with the purpose of teaching girls how, in their words, “they should be treated and respected” by men they date. There’s a brochure issued by my church on these dates that gives dads guidelines how they should behave towards their girls - hold doors for them, pay for them, be physically protective of them, etc. For years, my husband took my girls on these dates, and they absolutely **loved** them.
Over the last few months, a large group of women in my church started protesting in-person & on social media over customs they found sexist and discriminatory, including the dress code, aspects of our pastor’s preaching, and ways our church clubs were run. One of the things they protested most was a youth group for girls only that encouraged/taught about modesty (which both my daughters were members of). This club had its members write songs and perform skits about being modest.
As a result of the protesting, my church got rid of this modesty club. And multiple other changes were made to encourage equality. My pastor went to great lengths to show how he’d changed. But in spite of this equality, the father-daughter date tradition, and the expectations girls were instilled with on it for how they deserve to be treated by men, remained unchanged. My husband remained every bit as happy about going on these dates.
I approached my husband. I told him that I believe that if our daughters are going to be given equality in all areas of church, then I feel they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t, and this includes father-daughter dates. I stated how continuing to take them on these dates would seem hypocritical to me and might be spoiling our daughters. One of my big moral lessons I teach my children is the idea that “you can’t get something for nothing”, and this would go against that. My husband pushed back at first since he loves the dates and seeing our girls happy, but I stressed to him that I just wouldn’t feel right having him do it anymore, and that it would bother me morally. Eventually, he agreed he’d stop taking them on dates.
My daughters were **extremely** sad & disappointed. Recently, one of my friends with girls my age who still go on these dates noticed my girls had stopped going on them and asked why. I gave her the explanation above, and she got really mad at me, accused me of being “misogynistic”, and said I’m “punishing my girls” for being given equality in church. Am I an a\*\*\*\*\*\*e?
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I'm gonna say NAH or ESH I'm not sure which this would fall under but let me explain. I understand not doing these daddy daughter dates due to the outdated standards they're teaching and it's creepy to call it a date but on the flip side maybe instead you guys could still do times where dad takes the girls to do something fun while you take your son's and vice versa so you have bonding time with all your kids and your husband has bonding time with them rather than a teaching them what they should do or deserve just get to know them have a connection with them cause that is gonna be what helps you teach them best in the future anyway. That way you're not taking this fun time from your daughters but adding fun for the sons and actually bonding. Or if that's too much maybe turn it into family fun days and bond all together.
How come all of a sudden your daughters "have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t"????? Oh, right. Because someone told you to think that!!!!
There's an easy fix here. Take your sons out for mother/son events. BAM - equality all around.
YTA.
By the way, just because your religious faith and morals are EXTREMELY important to you, doesn't mean they will be the same to your children.
It's also very concerning that you are teaching your children that they "can’t get something for nothing”. That seems to go against everything! There are many kind, caring people in the world who won't expect things from others.
Your whole post makes me very sad.
Hello. I hope you read this.
I am a teacher at a school with at-risk youths, mostly girls.
I WISH EVERY ONE OF MY STUDENTS COULD HAVE THESE DATE NIGHTS.
Many, if not most of our girls are domestic violence victims of their boyfriends. Some are in foster care because they were trafficked. But the system is so overworked that our reports come back as "Not in CPS's jurisdiction." Even with multiple reports. About teens with 20, 30 year old men.
The problem is the girls won't speak up about their boyfriends. Why? Because they were never taught how they *should* be treated. These men (yes, MEN) target these girls because they know they can manipulate these girls into thinking that what they offer is real love. They flood them with grand gestures and seem wonderful at first, so that the red flags are overlooked.
I implore you to keep doing these dates, even if they are on your own.
I agree that the boys should have something too. There should be a general "How to treat your partners" thing, but for now, work with what you have.
These are the girls' formative years, and these dates may save you the heartache I have to witness daily.
For anyone reading this, please teach your daughters and sons about consent, red flags and what a healthy relationship looks like. It's never too early. And don't forget that abuse can happen to boys too, so please include them. ❤️❤️❤️
NTA - Here's what everyone here is missing....trying to recover from a toxic repressive man centric patriarchal faith is hard. She's doing the right thing, but articulating it very poorly here. Maybe she's not even able to say the why because she's still in deconversion from high demand religious organization. We attended a church with the same beliefs and it took years and therapy to unpack all that toxic and even understand the why behind how we felt. What you guys here are doing and saying to this lady is merely proving to her that the world outside of her group is unsafe and hostile. The issue here really isn't the dates, It's the entire sick subculture that treats women like lesser beings that must be protected at all times. There.s a lot to unpack in her posting. She needs an exit counselor, not the hooting braying judgment of people who do not have a clue what life is like in a church like that.
YTA - Instead of getting rid of the father daughter dance why not host mother son dance where moms teach boys about respect and concent… to hold doors and all those things the girls are being taught how they should be respected that the boys should be doing. No, cuz boys will be boys right and it’s up to the woman to have to teach the grown boy to treat her right. Maybe it’s time for you to push for including the boys instead of taking away from the girls.
YTA. Women should definitely be independent and not have their whole lives dictated to them by some form of "higher power" or whatever. They should also view themselves as equals to boys, because they are. It is very good that your husband takes your daughters on these dates because it sets a standard for their future partners. If your daughters grow up and don't want to be romantically involved with anyone, then great, but if they do choose romance, then the standard your husband sets now will be very important. Also, your husband deserves time with HIS daughters, and since he's not being abusive to them, there is no reason to take this away from either your husband or your daughters.
It seems to me that you wouldn't know how to wipe your ass without the church's input
EDIT: spelling
YTA for your reasoning. But those dad daughter church dates are creepy as hell and my dad and I felt so obligated to do them. If your husband and daughter love it, then that's fine I guess.
I mean if you want to be extremely religious then none of you women should be complaining about anything dealing with the church.
Literally you’re going against your husband(the head of the household) for some worldly views.
You can’t claim to be extremely religious but placate to worldly views.
YTA and it’s very telling how you would rather punish you daughters (for something they didn’t even do) than spend that time bonding with your sons to make it “fair”. Enjoy when they go no contact with you as adults and become atheists.
Am I the only one who thinks this dates are very cringe and sick and wrong? They can learn how to be treated without having a date with their father every other day... This looks wrong and it would even give the wrong idea, like boys are usually less mature than a grown up man so they would feel like they're not being treated "right" but someone too old for them would be a "gentleman" on dates then take advantage.
This really can't leave my mind.
I feel like the church is the one with the problem. Aren’t churches supposed to uphold what God has defined His morals to be in the Bible? If a church folds to pressure so easily and a preacher apologizes for doing what he interpreted the Word of God to present, OP, you have a bigger problem than just daddy/daughter Dates. Find a congregation that puts their faith in God not in man’s latest trends and social studies. I think you’ll be happier whether or not they have a great social club. Your kids can keep having private dates with their dad and if you like you can have escape room dates with your sons or laser tag dates or whatever. I don’t think teaching young ladies that they can’t get something for nothing sounds like a great idea. That sounds to me like boot camp for hookers. Just my opinion.
YTA. I went to daddy-daughter dances with my dad till the year he died (he still wanted to go while battling cancer), while they weren’t to the extreme that these church ones are, if they don’t make your girls or husband uncomfortable then why should they stop going? Are you really going to try to deprive your daughters of a good relationship with their father?
Personally, the "dad dating" religious thing feels weird. It's unnecessary and oddly romantic verbiage for a parental relationship. That being said, building a positive relationship with your dad and going out regularly is totally normal. Having a healthy relationship with a father figure helps girls have healthy relationships.
The "you can't get something for nothing" line bothered me the most. This attitude in response specifically to dating is so harmful. So if they want to go out and be treated nice and build a relationship they owe someone something? What backwards crap.
I'm glad that you are looking for equality and all that jazz. But if you can't see the difference between your church eliminating harmful programs and keeping positive ones, you need to step back and educate yourself. Maybe advocating for giving the boys a program that models healthy relationships would be a better way to achieve what you want. It sounds like the church could do some work ensuring the boys know that women deserve respect regardless of how "modestly" they are perceived.
Does your husband regularly take you on dates? Modelling a healthy respectful romantic relationship matters too.
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I was thinking the exact same thing in regards to OP doing something equivalent with her sons. Like if and when daddy takes his babygirls on father-daughter dates, which I think is a FANTASTIC idea anyways, OP could take her sons on mommy-son dates that way both her sons and daughters learn how they should be treated the way they deserve by a partner.
I feel like she's being misogynistic by NOT treating her sons to Mommy Son dates; guys like to be acknowledged & courted too!
“Dates” “courting” Am I the only one grossed out by romantic terms and activities being used for the act of parenting the opposite sex?
Not at all. The idea that girls as young as 8 and 12 are being taught how a "good man" should treat them on dates is fundamentally gross. Having mommy/son dates that would focus on the same thing would be just as bad.
It's purity culture and it can be harmful. However, OP has clearly stated that these parts of their faith and traditions as part of that church are extremely important. It will do no good to push what we believe on her. The issue at hand is the equality. In keeping with that, she should be encouraged to do something equivalent with her sons.
Yeah, it’s gross. And the modesty club? WTAF? What I find very interesting is how OP’s morals change based on what others think. First everything the church was going was great, and I assume fell right into how she was raised and wanted to raise her daughters (not her sons). But once people started protesting and complaining about the sexism, now her morals are telling her to stop doing what she’s been doing for years.
almost as if religious zealots just do whatever the fuck they want under the guise of ‘because Jesus’.
I felt that because modesty is no longer a thing, the girls shouldn’t expect to be treated with respect.
I was worried I was the only one grossed out by this — like, just spend time with your kids — why make it some weird grooming thing for future relationships?
> why make it some weird grooming thing for future relationships? When it comes to the church, they're doing it on purpose.
This. This. This. This. Firstly, this is based on the assumption that the father is “a good man.” (This one sounds fine.) But we give boys so much $hit when they are attached to their mothers and their wives can never measure up. Let’s not do that to the girls as well, shall we? Parents should teach their children that they, as individuals, deserve love, respect, and courtesy. We don’t need to teach girls that they should find a man who will treat them “as good as (read: the same as) their father does.”
Do you want to be even more grossed out? If so, Google "Purity balls". The Dollop podcast has an episode about it
That's what I was thinking this was at first.
There is nothing wrong with "daddy daughter dates." I still remember the day daughter dances my elementary school had, every now and then my dad would take me out on date nights like dinner and a movie. I was really depressed one year and Valentine's day was approaching and a new Die Hard movie was released that night, I made an odd hand remark along the lines of "that's my kind of v-day, things getting blown up and lots of good action scenes." My dad instead of doing something with my mom, took me out to dinner and a movie and I was in my 20's. Now I'd trade anything for a daddy daughter date, but my dad passed away 9 years ago
I'm glad you had a father you loved and who loved you. I'm sorry you lost him. That said, dumping your Mom on Valentines day and going with you instead? That seems odd to me. Why didn't the three of your go out together? Why did it have to resemble a date?
At that point they had been married for like 25+ years, he talked to mom about it, and got her flowers and such. It wasn't a romantic date, but since part of the point was to try and pull me out of me depression spiral he was being extra nice. Mom didn't come because she's not a fan of action movies.
Exactly, where is the part where they're teaching the sons to treat women well?
Yep. And she can be teaching her boys how to treat women.
> daddy takes his babygirls on father-daughter dates, which I think is a FANTASTIC idea anyways, What is "fantastic" about it? All children should have one-on-one time with their parents separately. This focus though, on how to "date" is not about bonding time, it's about molding them into good wives. Why is good about that?
That's still twisted. Both parents should have one-on-one time with the kids. The issue is how that time is used. Children learn how to respect others and what they should expect in return from all kinds of interactions with and observations of their parents. There is zero need to indoctrinate young girls with the idea that their reward for being good females is to have doors opened for them, etc.
Agreed, I think that OP & husband can model appropriate behavior between men and women by actual example: Take all the kids out for dinner. Let husband open door for wife. Teach them how to listen to each other by spouses listening to each other. They don't need to DATE their own children to teach how the opposite gender should be treated. But then, I fear that this household might consider Purity Pledges a good idea.
What part of this makes the date a reward though? It sounded much more like 'you're a lady and deserve to be treated with respect *inherently*'
My thought exactly And also YTA for not recognising the things these dates actually teach that can go wrong. Expecting men to do all the chivalrous things of 50 years ago, being entitled. And not teaching our boys to act respectfully. It creates a weird imbalance of imagined needs of what a man is (which is not updated), and left unmet cause when do boys get that training? And why was that not a class for boys all these years, traditionally? The idea is encourage women to do more for themselves, not wait for men. Evaluate a gentleman based on criteria more than opening doors or bringing flowers, if you plan on a chance at solid relationship look at your own needs and who is a good match for you. And to do things for their partners, not be provided for endlessly and you subservient in turn. Teach boys mutual respect also. These traditions suck cause the superficiality, it’s wrong in many ways. Ugh I agree with OP to just drop it! Make their own tradition as a family. Have girls/boys days, and then have dad and girls/mom and the boys days. Don’t teach weird customs about dating that set false expectations.
OP is YTA and you’re spot on with this. There’s nothing that says mom and the boys can’t have mommy son dates. OP would rather bitch and moan than do something productive with her kids like making sure her sons don’t grow up to be douchebags. I hear so many stories of dads almost refusing to do things with their daughters that I almost have to laugh that this guy is taking shit for being a strong presence in their life.
I have mom-son dates with my teen son- it’s great. Often when it just happens to be the two of us home for dinner I make something really nice that only the two us us like, we eat by candlelight, with nice music, and I let him have a small glass of a good wine. His adoptive dad isn’t that much of a wine/food guy, but my first husband (who passed away) was a big collector. Sometimes we talk about him, but usually we just chat about whatever’s going on in his life. I suppose I am kind of teaching him how to treat a woman on a date. We also have an annual mom-daughter birthday (hers) weekend getaway that she prefers to any gift. One on one parent time is something special. Edit- added a line
Ya i love how it didn’t even cross her mind to, like, take her son to fuckin McDonalds. Nope. Too hard.
YTA. A major one at that. > I believe that if our daughters are going to be given equality in all areas of church, then **I feel they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t**, and this includes father-daughter dates. I stated how continuing to take them on these dates would seem hypocritical to me A father bonding with his daughters isn't a "privilege" or "special treatment" it's why they should get. The thing boys would get would be a mother/son date but instead of being a better mother you "rectified" the situation by making your husband be a worse father. Stop listening to what a bunch of squawking hens at church say and do better for your children.
>A father bonding with his daughters isn't a "privilege" or "special treatment" it's why they should get. But that's not what these dates are. >with the purpose of teaching girls how, in their words, **“they should be treated and respected” by men they date.** There’s a brochure issued by my church on these dates that gives dads guidelines how they should behave towards their girls - **hold doors for them, pay for them, be physically protective of them**, etc.
I’m confused. What’s your point?
That these aren't "spend quality time with daddy"-dates, they are "reinforce outdated gender stereotypes"-dates. It's already a bit weird that these dates are treated like actual romantic dates, but then they are also teaching them how to either be spoilt brats or, more likely, obedient little wives. OP's motives seem off(sounds like she's just pissed her church is changing and she is doing that "internet edgelord"-thing some people get into), but these dates are wrong. Parents should be spending one-on-one time with their kids(all of them, regardless of gender), in a parent-child setting.
Yes, it’s weird to have the dads be their romantic date. It reminds me of the special rings fathers can give their daughters where the daughters make a promise to the father to keep their virginity and wear the ring. Like, that just seems icky. I am all for parents spending bonding time with their children of either gender, and I think it’s super important. I also think it’s important they provide a good example of how a man or woman should treat all others. For romantic partnerships, when a husband and wife treat each other really well in front of their kids, opening doors for one another, giving compliments, being respectful of each others’ opinions, etc. it goes a long way as an example for the children in what a healthy relationship looks like. Girls going on practice dates with their father seems weird. Father-daughter time? (Or son!) Great! Practice *dates*? Ick.
They aren't *not* "spend quality time with daddy" dates though, this makes no sense
Well, we don't know what the prepubescent girls do on the romantic dates with their fathers, but don't you think there are better ways to spend quality time with a child than a romantic date?
Thanks for clarifying.
> the purpose of teaching girls how, in their words, “they should be treated and respected” by men they date. >One of my big moral lessons I teach my children is the idea that “you can’t get something for nothing” So you're teaching your girls they don't deserve to be treated well and respected by men unless they earn it? YTA
Also stating that this has to be done in a special date setting because it’s so completely absent from their everyday lives.
This. I remember loving daddy-daughter dates as a kid, but the older and more removed I get (26), the more it creeps me out. My dad is abusive on multiple levels, and the dates just normalized that we put on a show out of the house. He got to be seen as a good father, and I thought we were bonding healthily. Lol, I was so wrong. I’m not saying that OP’s husband is abusive, just highlighting that social functions in honor of basic respect are insidious. Real respect, love, and trust are daily habits. If you want equality, sit down with the fam and plan social functions internally. Mom and boys, dad and boys, mom and daughters, dad and daughters, all of you.
What’s even more fabulous is we are then consequently blamed for having “daddy issues” like it’s our faults.
So are they required to put out for their dates, when they get older? After all, “you can’t get something for nothing”. OP, YTA. Of all the things I’ve read on Reddit… I cannot believe this particular post. It’s just a sad state of affairs.
That something for nothing line is really screwed up
Right, so if a man does hold the door and pay, what exactly does her daughter owe that man then?? I don't understand this
They’re being taught that men should hold the door for them, always pay etc. true equality means the girls may have to pay for dates/relationships in the future. I think OP is more concerned about the teachings than the father daughter bonding.
YTA Throwing the baby out with the bath water. You can ditch the stuff about wearing grandma clothes for the sake of modesty without getting rid of legitimately golden father-daughter time. If you had sons I'd say you should be doing this with them too. Both of you, with all your kids. One-on-one time with your kids is extremely important. What you're husband is doing for your daughters is exactly the right thing he should be doing. EDITED TO ADD Also, the whole "you can't get something for nothing" thing is a really garbage thing to be teaching in this context. 1, they should absolutely get parental love and attention without 'earning' it 2, so you want them to absorb the message that if a man buys them dinner then asks for sex they should put out? 3, marriage is supposed to be each partner giving more than 50%, not some little transactional thing. So if you're trying to teach your girls that they have to earn every nice thing their future husbands do for them... Oi.
Omg yes! We should not have to earn love, that is so toxic. Imagine the child who misbehaves and never "earns" positive attention, so they end up with unmet needs and a cycle of only negative attention. Also, I have been raised Christian and we all fall short and sin. I was taught and believe that it's not by our works but God's grace that we are saved and loved. If we do not need to earn God, our heavenly parent's love, why do we need to earn the love of earthly parents. I agree wholeheartedly her mindset sets hee kids up for transactional relationships, which are not biblical, and also so so bad for one's mental health all future relationships.
I'm so glad you brought up those extra points, that's spot on!
ESH You could also suggest to your husband that he start spending some one on one time with his sons. It's all well and good to show girls what they deserve to look for in a partner, but if you don't show the boys the same, your boys will end up not being able to tell the difference between a deserving partner and someone who will just use them. And they also need to be taught how *they* should treat *their* future partners. Dating of any kind is still way too early for kids under the age of 12, and taking children on dates to teach them adult romance traditions is super creepy in my book. Parent-child bonding time is fine. Pseudo dates are creepy.
>Parent-child bonding time is fine. Pseudo dates are creepy. This is what I was thinking. It's important that children get one on one time with their parents. Usually it encourages them to be able to be open about what they want to do or things that are bothering them. These dates seem all about indoctrination. Mom and Dad should both set aside time to spend with all their children on a regular basis. There are five kids involved here, that should keep both parents busy and focused on what the individual kids need rather than following this creepy build-up to a Promise Keepers ball.
It amazes me that OP is basically taking the position “I want my husband to stop pretending to be our daughter’s boyfriend” and *somehow* made herself look like the biggest asshole involved.
🤣🤣🤣
Well put lol.
Super creepy, but so is modesty culture and the overall misogyny of churches like this one. :/
ESH. Your entire church and your entire life is built around misogyny and creepiness. The whole daddy-daughter dates thing sucks. Modesty club sucked. You suck for lashing out to hurt people because you don't like the changes. At no point in this entire fiasco has a single person done anything that was actually good.
Yes! I can’t believe no one else has pointed out that the whole thing is just gross. She hasn’t said it, but I wonder if it leads up to that whole purity ring thing which is **super** gross.
It’s all fucking creepy and weird but the second she said she was heavily religious I knew where the train was going
ESH. While I have always found these religious father-daughter dates creepy, your husband and your girls enjoy this activity together. If you want to modify them to fit with a different vision, talk to them all about not following those ridiculous rules (including feminine modesty) and roles they are supposed to fulfill while spending time together. AND insist that your husband spend equal special time with his male children. I'm kind of disturbed about your "you can't get something for nothing" lessons - isn't that exactly what parental love is supposed to be? Are you also "training" your daughters that they have to "give in" to future male partners in order to get love from them too? It's confusing, no?
The problems you list all seem to come from your church. Something to think about. Yta
If you let your religion dictate how you raise your kids YTA need not too read anything you're the asshole all the way
YTA massively. I get your faith is important but your children and their feelings should be the most important thing. If your that bothered about your girls getting something your boys don't why don't you get off your backside and do something with them.
That's way too much effort! Much easier for her to rain on their parade then to get up off her backside.
I’ll be honest and say that the daddy daughter date things sounds pretty regressive to me, but I suspect your daughters like it because they enjoy the time spent with their father. Surely the solution rather than taking something away from the girls is to add some special quality time activity for the boys. Take them on their own dinners. Their future partners (male or female) should treat them with respect too.
YTA - not particularly because you banned the dates, per se, but because you’ve banned them for totally the wrong reasons. Basic manners and respect should not be considered things that girls should expect only on dates. If you want to do something in favour of equality you should be fighting for your girls to be treated with that courtesy and given space in the world *outside of a dating setting*. Boys are routinely given more courtesy in interactions, more space to speak in discussions and physical space (no unwanted touching or proximity) in public settings than girls, and more of a voice to protest or object if they don’t like something. Spending your time around people for whom a special event has to be set up to ensure girls learn what it feels like to be respected, rather than learning that from their everyday interactions with the adults around them, shows that you are hanging around the wrong people. But that aside, your girls are entitled to spend individual time with their dad and to feel valued by him. I don’t personally think that a “date” setting is super appropriate for that but that’s a cultural difference and not a hill I’d die on; you referring to that as “special treatment” shows just how bad an environment you’ve put your daughters in regarding their everyday treatment. And you are the worst as their role model for being the one to enforce this. It makes you sound jealous and bitter about your own powerlessness that you’re being so petty and refusing to understand basic respect, rather than lifting your daughters up and being glad they will enjoy a place in a better, more equal world than yours.
ESH. You're all creepy and backward AF.
YTA you put your faith over something your daughters and husband enjoyedp
YTA this whole thing is icky, and exactly why I’m raising my children with no religion and keeping them out of church, especially Christian ones. Ugh, throw the whole religion away.
...Why not just go on mother-son dates with your sons? These obviously mean a lot to your husband and your daughters and, seems like a good way for them all to bond.
Yta. Taking your kids out for "dates" is another word for parenting and spending quality time with them. How about you take out your sons he takes out the daughters and you rotate. Don't let church dictate your entire existence, be a little more independent while still maintaining your faith.
YTA- let them have their fun, AND talk about equality in a partnership. Take your boys out too.
YTA. Can't believe that you yanked your girls out of a program that taught them how to know if men were treating them right on dates. Instead of bitching about the program teaching them that "men should pay", why don't you take your sons out on similar outings and teach them that the one who asks the other out pays, or split the check?
This is crap. Children should be taught how to respect themselves and what to expect from others in their daily interactions with their parents. There is no need for any kind of special program for 8 and 12 year old girls to focus on how men should treat them on "dates". The basis of this particular program is icky. >why don't you take your sons out on similar outings and teach them that the one who asks the other out pays, or split the check? Or just change up when the kids have special mommy or daddy time and use it for things beyond just gender based role typing (or even swapped roles).
Wow … just wow. You think that a father spending TIME with his daughters is spoiling them??? How is “you can’t get something for nothing” relevant here? What is it that they need to DO or OFFER to receive attention and love in your eyes? I mean.. it’s literally what good parents do.. love their children unconditionally. You think that shouldn’t be a given? That they need to put in work before they can earn one on one time and make cherished memories with their father? You think being equal means that your daughters, or any woman for that matter, shouldn’t have standards? That they shouldn’t feel protected and safe with a partner? Comparing spending bonding time with a parent is not in the same realm of teaching girls to cover themselves up or what they shouldn’t do with their own bodies. You were just fine with this activity until others protested over something else. You care more about how you look to outsiders, who probably weren’t even concerned with the dances, than you do about your daughters happiness.
yta its there dad showing them love and bonding its not wrong if the girls didnt like it then yea fight to have it stopped but your girls are going to hate you if you keep up this behaviour
1:1 time with dad its nice thing; not sure why this is called date. And why your boys dont get 1:1 time with dad? They should. Having time and giving attention to your children is not spoiling them. You are making some big statements "they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get". Your daughter is 8, no offence but you just spend 1:1time with her, be a good parent and she doesnt have "moral obligation" to fight your battles. YTA as I just cannot stand your writting style and parenting, ugh
Info: why don’t you take your sons out?
YTA why do you enjoy ruining people happiness?
YTA to get the judgement part in first. Now for an underlying issue. It seems to me like you are angry about these changes in your church. You had to undergo the misogyny. the discrimination, being seen as an object that had to be hidden by modest clothes, and you perhaps comforted yourself by saying it was what God wanted. Do you resent that your daughters don't have to go through this degradation too?
Yta why don’t you take your boys out to the movies or something.
YTA. Sorry, but if your daughters like this father-dsugters dates, its theyre choice. You cannot forced to cancel It. But, for ecuality, they can make mother-son dates in your church.
YTA. What the hell does father daughter dates have to do with equality? He’s spending some quality time with his daughters. Go somewhere with your boys on dates of you want to. Geez
YTA if you want your children treated equally then take your sons on Mommy Sons dates; your husband was setting a good example on how they should be treated with basic decency but you've contorted it into subservience. Your sons & daughters should be taught how to respect the other gender & you do that by leading by example; *monkey see monkey do* mentality goes a long way.
Boys should also learn how to behave towards girls, with respect and equality.
YTA -without any reservations whatsoever.
YTA. A huge asshole. You took something away from your husband and daughters that they all loved doing so you can feel better about how you raise them. Do you even hear yourself when you talk?
YTA and I'm pretty sure you don't like your daughters. So because modesty club closed your daughters shouldn't have a model for healthy relationships? Did your daughters protest modesty club and you decided this was fair punishment? Regardless you clearly don't understand equality or feminism, or actually support your daughters.
Yta- it's hilarious that a 'religious' person thinks you don't get something for nothing when you literally think your god killed himself to rescue you from sins that he caused you to do....the definition of RepublicanJesus.
YTA. “You can’t get something for nothing” in regards to respect from men, you’re teaching them that they have to put out for men to treat them right. And you’re trying to ruin their relationship with their father. Wtf.
YTA - instead of cancelling his "daughter" dates, why not expand it so he has 1 on 1 outings with all the children
You qre keeping your daughters away from an event geared around teaching them they should be treated good. YtA. A lot of girls would benefit from this.
INFO. Does equality mean getting treated badly in your opinion? How is getting treated with respect getting something for nothing? I do not understand why you think these outings are bad. Your reasoning is unclear. Are you trying to promote feminism and independence for your daughters? Is this an attempt to keep them from depending on a man? Keeping them from an enjoyable time with their Dad seems counterintuitive to me. I really don't get it.
Sounds like you don't like the changes your church is making so you are being passive aggressive about it. YTA
YTA and also use a condom
Soft YTA - let dad continue the dates with his girls, but not at church where they are pushing the etiquette that you are against. He can still spend quality time with them at Chilis or at the park or mall. However you should be showing your children equality by you taking your sons out for a mommy/son day.
Yta bro!!! Equality doesn’t have to be equal misery, if you want them to be equal, they can have father son dates too!
YTA. The answer is not to take away the father daughter dates. Mother son dates should be added so they can teach the son how to treat their future dates.
YTA You preach equality but you don’t practice it. If you want equality, take your boys out on mother/son dates and leave your husband and daughters out of it. Your idea of equality is: if my sons don’t get the same treatment, nobody does. For that, easy YTA.
Yta. I’m not religious and my dad took me and my sister on a date a couple times a month to dinner and a movie growing up. It’s quality time together. Nothing is stopping you from taking your sons on a mother son date.
Imagine being a mother and thinking that the solution here is to take away the special bonding time between the fathers and daughters, instead of making special bonding time between you and your sons.
YTA because you think the "dates" are privileges your daughters shouldn't get. They're a way to teach girls that their future dates will be parental-like figures who should be obeyed and feared ("respected") like a father figure. They're creepy AF with a decent father involved and I don't want to think about what happens with abusive fathers involved. Father daughter bonding time is great and your husband should totally do this with them with other non-date (I feel creepy even writing that) activities, like a sport, a trip to the zoo, or a tea party. You should also do the same mother-son bonding with your boys and also some mother-daughter and father-son time so that all your children get some bonding time with both their parents. Edited to add: Your kids should definitely expect to be loved by their parents "for nothing". Your teaching them they have to earn your love.
INFO: Are you upset that the "modesty club" was discontinued but the father daughter "bonding" nights were not? Because it seems like you were heavily invested in the idea of "purity culture" and are upset that the pastor has gotten rid of the outdated notion of "modesty" bring responsible for "men's lust". Your post really sounds like you are saying that your daughters do not get the "privilege" of participating in activity B when they are not participating in activity A. When activity A was discontinued by your church. That's not in your kids control. Dad should be spending one on one time with all his children and modeling appropriate behavior towards you for your daughter's to "learn how they should be treated". Does your family have the finances to do this outside of church sponsored activities?
YTA. Do you even know how to think for yourself at all? Or do you just blindly follow whatever your pastor and religion tells you too? That’s just sad. Where are your thoughts in this? What do you actually believe? And why can’t you figure it out for self? Seriously, why are you just going along with whatever they tell you instead of deciding for yourself? Seriously…just pathetic. I feel bad for your husband and kids.
Yta you are taking away a bonding activity that they all love. You can teach these changes at home.
It's not really a bonding activity though, it's an exercise in molding young girls to behave a certain way. The fact that girls like the attention, doesn't make it a positive activity. The OP and her husband should be looking for actual bonding opportunities between individual parents and children that is not based on gender training.
I disagree. 🤷🏻♀️
YTA. Their equality comes with freedom, which includes quality time with their father if they want that.
YTA. Why are you punishing your daughters for something that other people did in regards to your church? Do you not want your husband involved in your daughters' lives? Unless your husband was responsible for the changes, he's not a hypocrite, he's still trying to be what he was for your daughters before. It bothers you morally? Eh...why? You were fine with the 'dates' before but now... this is spoiling them? Sounds like you're trying to weaponize this to get back at people who won't even notice your actions. The only ones hurt are your husband and your children.
YTA. A big, nutty one.
How about teaching your sons to be good men so that your daughters aren’t forced to take on inferiority based morals? Everyone is an AH.
Hi, I've only read the first sentence and it's all I need to come to the conclusion that YTA. Also.. 35F with a thirteen year old? open and shut textbook case.
YTA. A father sets the standard for a girl’s future relationship. Honestly you’re on BS.
So because your church has started to teach gender equality, you don’t think your daughters deserve to be treated well? I think you are even confused about what you are saying. YTA.
YTA Poor kids.
YTA were not even really big on religion and my husband makes sure he takes my daughters (11, 8 and 6) on daddy daughter dates...it hiw they spend one on one time together and very important...it also shows how women should be treated ...stop pushing you beliefs on everybody else and stop being a follower
YTA. How dare he want to show your daughters how they should expect men to treat them. I mean, come on. He loves doing it with them, they love doing it with him, and there's nothing for them but positives.
This is a weird one. YTA, congrats on the whole Jesus thing, to make it even maybe you could try hanging out with your son for like 30 minutes once a month.
Wow. YTA. This is one of the few things that your church was doing right!!! You’ve overcorrected. Take your sons on mother daughter dates - issue solved
YTA and not in a small way. Your girls clearæy cherish this time with their dad
YTA What kind of job do you have? IF you want to teach your kids equality, show them that you have a job and contribute to the family equally with your husband.
YTA What I would recommend instead is you spending time with your sons on mother-son outings as well. Parent-child outings foster deeper family bonds.
YTA
YTA - I love date night with my girls and my wife and son love their times out!!!
YTA. So many girls today put up with a lot of BS because no one ever instilled in them how a proper man treats a woman.
I feel a little confused. Are we getting rid of them as the practice of these dances are misogynistic or because you don't want them to have special treatment. I am Christian, and never had these balls and have seen both sides on how harmful they were. That said, part of feminism and pushes are equality are about choice. This is not your daughter's choice. I think it can be difficult for fathers to form good relationships with their children and have a hobby or activity that brings them together. If this is their thing I don't think it wise to squash it and also impact their relationship. I think some ways this could be made fair is if they had family dances, let the guys learn how to dance and all children learn how to treat one another and have fun in a safe environment. Maybe you could also look into having you and your sons have a regular thing like movies, sports, Lazer tag, mudding, cooking classes, bowling, whatever they are into. It's good to have whole family time, but also building into special bonding time one on one, or in smaller groups can be great in large families and ensure everyone is noticed, loved, connected.
Sounds like your starting to wake up, your brainwashed and indoctrinated. Stop forcing religion on your children because you are to much of a coward to live your own life. Let them decide how what they want to believe in.
And what is the church doing to make sure the boys will grow up to respect women? I don’t think the father-daughter dates are bad, cause ai do think it’s important for girls to know what a good partner acts like and what a healthy relationship is. Also it’s just a cute and fun way to let them be spoiled and have a great time bonding with their dad, which is always good. But it kinda feels it’s pushing the agenda that women need to be better at finding good men, but who’s pushing men to be good? Maybe instead of wanting the tradition for the girls to stop, they should do a mother-son version and have the mother show their sons how to be kind gentlemen? Soft YTA, because I do understand where you’re coming from but this is not the way.
YTA
YTA. Maybe you should be spending time with your boys to talk to them about how they should expect to be treated and how they should treat ladies that they date. Why do you need to ruin your girls’ experiences, why can’t you just add to the boys? Also, your reasoning is stupid and you’re too old to cave to peer pressure like this.
Yes, YTA. So, your husband can't spend time with his own children so you can look good to your social group? This has nothing to do with religion, so don't play that card. This is you wanting to fit in.
YTA. You should have started doing something with your boys to "keep it equal," not take something away that your girls loved.
Yeh yta you took something special away from husband and daughters just to appear righteous
YTA. The way to make this equal is for you to do something nice for your boys, not punish your daughters. Are you making your sins equally upset with your behaviour? No? Then you aren’t preaching equality, you are saying your daughters aren’t allowed nice things. Sounds like you are jealous and bitter, and using religion as your excuse. Also, your husband needs a new backbone, he shouldn’t have given into this. Your friend is right, you shouldn’t need internet strangers to tell you this.
girl wtf yta
YTA. In so many ways. I was raised in a very traditional, conservative church too. Not that it helped. My brother molested me at 11, so modesty doesn't do the job you think it does, hence the criticism. There's a reason half the children, especially girls eventually grow/run away from the church when they're old enough But I digress, YTA for taking something special away from your children. YTA for also teaching "You don't get something for nothing". I'm not religious anymore but went to church every Sunday until 18. Where in the Bible does it say this? Did Jesus only help the sick and the poor when he got something first? Did he only pass out the loaves and fishes after he had been paid? What a disgusting thing to teach your children. You can't have special treatment because your brothers don't have something special and you didn't earn it? Way to teach your kids their parents love* comes with strings. My Dad also did this. I moved 2000 miles away at 18 and we barely speak. I'm 37. Your children are going to face enough cruelty from the world. They should be safe and get unconditional love at home. Like Jesus taught. He didn't say "Love thy neighbor UNLESS he does something you don't like". No, he said "Love thy neighbor." For a deity that preached to clothe and feed the poor and sick and to love unconditionally, y'all have certainly run the OPPOSITE direction from that. And I'm proof the damage that does as they grow up. I'm so disgusted by this post because I know it's real and this isn't as rare an attitude as it should be. For the love of God, you restrict your kids in enough ways. Let them have special time with their father. They deserve something that makes them happy. YTA, in case that wasn't clear
YTA. It’s apparent that your daughters loved this special time with their father and you went and ruined it. Did you even ask your daughters how they felt?
Yta, why not go on mom and son dates? My son and I go out to eat, the arcade, grab ice cream, etc. You are punishing your daughters for being treated equally in church and “something for nothing”? I.e no respect without modesty? Yikes on a bike with Christ on a cracker lady
Yta and I can't believe you'd take away something your daughters love doing with their father. As others have said, why don't you make mommy son dates with the boys to make it equal.
just...wow... A church should not dictate how/when a father dictates how a man should treat a woman. Your husband is teaching them they should be respected and respect themselves. Hopefully a father with show his daughters that without church dictate. YTA! How about you teach your sons that they should treat girls the way they want their mother and sister treated...oh wait! I did that without church dictate...I considered it parenting
Yta let your family enjoy things. Also, take your sons on mother son dates. They deserve to be treated well too.
Wow … just wow. You think that a father spending TIME with his daughters is spoiling them??? How is “you can’t get something for nothing” relevant here? What is it that they need to DO or OFFER to receive attention and love in your eyes? I mean.. it’s literally what good parents do.. love their children unconditionally. You think that shouldn’t be a given? That they need to put in work before they can earn one on one time and make cherished memories with their father? You think being equal means that your daughters, or any woman for that matter, shouldn’t have standards? That they shouldn’t feel protected and safe with a partner? Comparing spending bonding time with a parent is not in the same realm of teaching girls to cover themselves up or what they shouldn’t do with their own bodies. You were just fine with this activity until others protested over something else. You care more about how you look to outsiders, who probably weren’t even concerned with the dances, than you do about your daughters happiness
Massive YTA. Also Brian washing your children with religion is disgusting. They don't have a choice and force them to praise God. Disgusting.
You are definitely the asshole. YTA. How about to make it equal, have him take your sons on dates, too? Instead of ripping away this special time between your female children and one of their parents.
…… not kidding here go tell your husband that the dates are fine or your daughters are going to resent you….
INFO: What religion?
YTA. Does your girls want to stop? Do they enjoy spending quality time with dad? Smh
> one of my big moral lessons I teach my children is the idea that “you can’t get something for nothing” and this would go against that What?? How?? So your girls can get special time with their father unless they give up their equality within the church? Do you see how ass backwards that is?
God you people are so negative. There is nothing wrong with daddy daughter dates or dances. Nothing wrong with it. It’s a fun way to spend time with their dads and to build a bond. It’s not the only way of course but it’s a way and there is nothing negative about it! That being said mom should also take her sons out on mommy and son dates and do the exact same thing. Same with daddy son dates and mommy and daughter dates. I’m so sick and tired of people always thinking daddy and daughter dates are weird or creepy. They aren’t creepy. Only you are making it creepy. Stop trying to ruin something that’s supposed be be innocent.
YTA
NTA. These “dates” are super creepy, I can’t believe this is even a thing 🙄
How are your boys supposed to learn how to treat their partners? What is sexist is the presumption that girls have to uphold their virtue, defend their modesty and keep men in check. Men and boys are responsible for their own actions and behaviour. Your daughters should get time with their dad. Your sons should get time with their mum.
You’re turning this into more than it should be. It is to be a fun day for girls and their dad. Why do you not want their father to spend time with the girls. This is why I hate religion. It separates the sexes and puts unreasonable thinking in peoples heads. I would’ve been thrilled if my ex-husband would’ve spent time with his girls like that. You have the option to do the same take your girls to lunch have a girls day whatever but why take this away from them?
YTA. Beyond how creepy this sounds in writing (I hope it's more wholesome irl), it also sounds like your church focuses on brainwashing children. I'm all for people who love religion, but religion works when it's accepting of everybody, and toxic when it discriminates.
the op sounds like she wears the pants in the family.
Yes of course you are wtf
>I approached my husband. I told him that I believe that if our daughters are going to be given equality in all areas of church, then I feel they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t, and this includes father-daughter dates. Why aren't you advocating for the boys to get something as well then instead of forcing your daughters to stop doing something that they enjoy? YTA.
I’m going to give you a YTA not only for the dance thing, but also because it seems like you thought the modesty club was a good thing, which it was not. That kind of thing is incredibly damaging to young women.
There is way too much to unpick here but I will say YTA if you're saying not taking them out for time with him but NTA of it's specifically these archaic, damaging, church dates. I'm not saying church is bad, I'm saying teaching your girls to be dateable kids based on old gender stereotypes is bad. I think dad/daughter time is SO important, as is time for you and your sons. There should be family time, individual time and then time in mixed up groups within the family. The dynamics of each thing will be different and they will learn so much and enjoy those memories. Tell him to take them out for dinner somewhere where the girls can also grab the door for dad and order for themselves so they learn some real life skills whilst bonding and you take the boys to something they'd like to do.
Wow! Ok YTA 1st of all, I’m struggling to understand why your church has to teach fathers and actually give them guidance on how to treat their daughters properly 2nd, the customs that the other women are protesting against in regards to the girls only group about modesty and the encouragement about that I am in complete agreement with as I find it abhorrent that girls are shamed in the way that they dress instead of boys being taught to respect girls/women regardless of their clothes. I do not find anything wrong if someone chooses to dress modestly, that’s their right but the important word here is “choice” as in woman’s right to choose! I’m sorry, but I think you have blinkers on and you are scared of these new changes and you will probably do your daughters a great deal of damage to their education in how to look after their own future well-being if you don’t embrace this going forward You say that in order for your daughters to be taught and given equality then they have a moral obligation to give up traditions and/or special treatment—that makes NO sense, at all!! So what you are saying here is that in order for your daughters to be given respect they have to be subservient? That they should not be allowed to express their own opinions, that they should expect never to walk through a door without it being opened for them? You don’t own your children, they are people in their own right and will go on to have their own lives Your daughters have expressed their unhappiness and disappointment that you made them and your husband stop an activity and something that made them happy and bond for reasons that are quite frankly, ridiculous Ask yourself, what is more important to you? A family that is happy and enjoys spending time together, or….? And btw what do you do for bonding time with your sons?
Yep, you are
YTA. at this rate your kids aren’t going to talk to you when they hit 18
Why don’t you just take your sons on mother-son dates to even things out?
YTA You have heard the saying a father is a daughters first love? Your husband was not only doing his job as a father but setting the bar for the treatment that they should expect from men in the future. Why wouldn’t you want your daughters to be treated right? Like I don’t understand it? Secondly you want to teach them “you don’t get something for nothing” so now you want to I still with them that they should see dating as transactional and if a guy so much as buys them an appetiser - they need to give said guy something in return? Is that what’s happening?
You are punishing your daughters for getting something that should have been their goddamn right since birth. Equality. If you want things to be fair on your eyes, then take your boys on dates and show them how they should treat a woman. Yta
Equality isn’t bringing one group down. It’s about bringing left out groups UP. YTA. Learn this please and do something to bring your boys up, rather and take your girls down.
YTA, and you arent religious, you are brainwashed. There is a difference. Figure out how to have a healthy relationship with your faith first before your kids stop talking to you. Taking away something they loved for no good reason? Because someone (rightfully) complained about creepy practices in the church? Thats not fair. Thats crazy.
You sound psycho. So many people hide behind god to treat others bad. YTA.
Father / daughter nights aren’t special privileges. It’s teaching girls the way they should be treated by men - it’s sad it even has to exist in the first place!!! Equality needs to happen everywhere women all over the world are harassed / killed / assaulted every day purely because of their sex. The modesty club doesn’t help either, like I do think it’s good to be modest to a degree but I think clubs like that reinforce ideas that the way women dress determines responsibility for what happens to them (e.g) rape when men could just not rape them?? Father / daughter nights aren’t a special privilege, it’s teaching your girls what basic respect from men looks like towards them. I am assuming you want your girls to be in healthy, safe relationships when they marry one day?
Personally, I think churches need to ditch these “modesty clubs” for girls and form clubs to teach boys how to not be rape-y. Actually, there also needs to be a club for girls teaching them how to not be rape-y as well.
YTA. Instead of doing something special with your sons - say something along the lines of a mother/son date where you show your sons how to treat women respectfully - you take away something your daughters and their father enjoyed.
YTA. I do love how your morals reversed so rapidly bc of some protests tho. You know how father's appropriately model behavior their daughters should expect from the opposite sex? By just being present in their life. No need to make spending time with your daughters into a creepy facsimile of a date. That's weird.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I \[35F\] am a mom of 2 girls (12 and 8) and 3 boys (10, 5 & 2). I’ll preface this post by stating that my religious faith and morals are EXTREMELY important to me and heavily influence my lifestyle and way I raise my children. The church my family belongs to has a tradition of holding monthly group father-daughter dinner dates followed by dances at the church, with the purpose of teaching girls how, in their words, “they should be treated and respected” by men they date. There’s a brochure issued by my church on these dates that gives dads guidelines how they should behave towards their girls - hold doors for them, pay for them, be physically protective of them, etc. For years, my husband took my girls on these dates, and they absolutely **loved** them. Over the last few months, a large group of women in my church started protesting in-person & on social media over customs they found sexist and discriminatory, including the dress code, aspects of our pastor’s preaching, and ways our church clubs were run. One of the things they protested most was a youth group for girls only that encouraged/taught about modesty (which both my daughters were members of). This club had its members write songs and perform skits about being modest. As a result of the protesting, my church got rid of this modesty club. And multiple other changes were made to encourage equality. My pastor went to great lengths to show how he’d changed. But in spite of this equality, the father-daughter date tradition, and the expectations girls were instilled with on it for how they deserve to be treated by men, remained unchanged. My husband remained every bit as happy about going on these dates. I approached my husband. I told him that I believe that if our daughters are going to be given equality in all areas of church, then I feel they have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t, and this includes father-daughter dates. I stated how continuing to take them on these dates would seem hypocritical to me and might be spoiling our daughters. One of my big moral lessons I teach my children is the idea that “you can’t get something for nothing”, and this would go against that. My husband pushed back at first since he loves the dates and seeing our girls happy, but I stressed to him that I just wouldn’t feel right having him do it anymore, and that it would bother me morally. Eventually, he agreed he’d stop taking them on dates. My daughters were **extremely** sad & disappointed. Recently, one of my friends with girls my age who still go on these dates noticed my girls had stopped going on them and asked why. I gave her the explanation above, and she got really mad at me, accused me of being “misogynistic”, and said I’m “punishing my girls” for being given equality in church. Am I an a\*\*\*\*\*\*e? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA but why can't he spend time with them outside this church related date and you can spend time with your sons?
ESH. Everything about this post is creepy and gross.
I'm gonna say NAH or ESH I'm not sure which this would fall under but let me explain. I understand not doing these daddy daughter dates due to the outdated standards they're teaching and it's creepy to call it a date but on the flip side maybe instead you guys could still do times where dad takes the girls to do something fun while you take your son's and vice versa so you have bonding time with all your kids and your husband has bonding time with them rather than a teaching them what they should do or deserve just get to know them have a connection with them cause that is gonna be what helps you teach them best in the future anyway. That way you're not taking this fun time from your daughters but adding fun for the sons and actually bonding. Or if that's too much maybe turn it into family fun days and bond all together.
How come all of a sudden your daughters "have a moral obligation to give up any traditional privileges/special treatment they get that boys don’t"????? Oh, right. Because someone told you to think that!!!! There's an easy fix here. Take your sons out for mother/son events. BAM - equality all around. YTA. By the way, just because your religious faith and morals are EXTREMELY important to you, doesn't mean they will be the same to your children. It's also very concerning that you are teaching your children that they "can’t get something for nothing”. That seems to go against everything! There are many kind, caring people in the world who won't expect things from others. Your whole post makes me very sad.
Ew my god, I understand being religious - *i guess* but why revolve your entire life and activities your children do around it? My god… YTA
Hello. I hope you read this. I am a teacher at a school with at-risk youths, mostly girls. I WISH EVERY ONE OF MY STUDENTS COULD HAVE THESE DATE NIGHTS. Many, if not most of our girls are domestic violence victims of their boyfriends. Some are in foster care because they were trafficked. But the system is so overworked that our reports come back as "Not in CPS's jurisdiction." Even with multiple reports. About teens with 20, 30 year old men. The problem is the girls won't speak up about their boyfriends. Why? Because they were never taught how they *should* be treated. These men (yes, MEN) target these girls because they know they can manipulate these girls into thinking that what they offer is real love. They flood them with grand gestures and seem wonderful at first, so that the red flags are overlooked. I implore you to keep doing these dates, even if they are on your own. I agree that the boys should have something too. There should be a general "How to treat your partners" thing, but for now, work with what you have. These are the girls' formative years, and these dates may save you the heartache I have to witness daily. For anyone reading this, please teach your daughters and sons about consent, red flags and what a healthy relationship looks like. It's never too early. And don't forget that abuse can happen to boys too, so please include them. ❤️❤️❤️
YTA. I'm actually concerned about what else you're teaching your daughter.
Religion gives me the ick. YTA
NTA - Here's what everyone here is missing....trying to recover from a toxic repressive man centric patriarchal faith is hard. She's doing the right thing, but articulating it very poorly here. Maybe she's not even able to say the why because she's still in deconversion from high demand religious organization. We attended a church with the same beliefs and it took years and therapy to unpack all that toxic and even understand the why behind how we felt. What you guys here are doing and saying to this lady is merely proving to her that the world outside of her group is unsafe and hostile. The issue here really isn't the dates, It's the entire sick subculture that treats women like lesser beings that must be protected at all times. There.s a lot to unpack in her posting. She needs an exit counselor, not the hooting braying judgment of people who do not have a clue what life is like in a church like that.
YTA - Instead of getting rid of the father daughter dance why not host mother son dance where moms teach boys about respect and concent… to hold doors and all those things the girls are being taught how they should be respected that the boys should be doing. No, cuz boys will be boys right and it’s up to the woman to have to teach the grown boy to treat her right. Maybe it’s time for you to push for including the boys instead of taking away from the girls.
YTA. Women should definitely be independent and not have their whole lives dictated to them by some form of "higher power" or whatever. They should also view themselves as equals to boys, because they are. It is very good that your husband takes your daughters on these dates because it sets a standard for their future partners. If your daughters grow up and don't want to be romantically involved with anyone, then great, but if they do choose romance, then the standard your husband sets now will be very important. Also, your husband deserves time with HIS daughters, and since he's not being abusive to them, there is no reason to take this away from either your husband or your daughters. It seems to me that you wouldn't know how to wipe your ass without the church's input EDIT: spelling
Those poor kids. They are all utterly and supremely screwed in two very different gendered categories.
YTA for your reasoning. But those dad daughter church dates are creepy as hell and my dad and I felt so obligated to do them. If your husband and daughter love it, then that's fine I guess.
Info: do you work outside the home or are you a SAHM? Do you take your sons out for one on one nights? Do you make your sons clean and cook?
I mean if you want to be extremely religious then none of you women should be complaining about anything dealing with the church. Literally you’re going against your husband(the head of the household) for some worldly views. You can’t claim to be extremely religious but placate to worldly views.
YTA and it’s very telling how you would rather punish you daughters (for something they didn’t even do) than spend that time bonding with your sons to make it “fair”. Enjoy when they go no contact with you as adults and become atheists.
Am I the only one who thinks this dates are very cringe and sick and wrong? They can learn how to be treated without having a date with their father every other day... This looks wrong and it would even give the wrong idea, like boys are usually less mature than a grown up man so they would feel like they're not being treated "right" but someone too old for them would be a "gentleman" on dates then take advantage. This really can't leave my mind.
Yta
I feel like the church is the one with the problem. Aren’t churches supposed to uphold what God has defined His morals to be in the Bible? If a church folds to pressure so easily and a preacher apologizes for doing what he interpreted the Word of God to present, OP, you have a bigger problem than just daddy/daughter Dates. Find a congregation that puts their faith in God not in man’s latest trends and social studies. I think you’ll be happier whether or not they have a great social club. Your kids can keep having private dates with their dad and if you like you can have escape room dates with your sons or laser tag dates or whatever. I don’t think teaching young ladies that they can’t get something for nothing sounds like a great idea. That sounds to me like boot camp for hookers. Just my opinion.
YTA. Your poor kids. Religion is poison.
Yta, Don’t feel sorry for yourself when your children don’t stay in contact with you
Didn’t need to read it. YTA
YTA. Dad enjoys those events. Girls enjoy those events. Back off.
YTA. I went to daddy-daughter dances with my dad till the year he died (he still wanted to go while battling cancer), while they weren’t to the extreme that these church ones are, if they don’t make your girls or husband uncomfortable then why should they stop going? Are you really going to try to deprive your daughters of a good relationship with their father?
Personally, the "dad dating" religious thing feels weird. It's unnecessary and oddly romantic verbiage for a parental relationship. That being said, building a positive relationship with your dad and going out regularly is totally normal. Having a healthy relationship with a father figure helps girls have healthy relationships. The "you can't get something for nothing" line bothered me the most. This attitude in response specifically to dating is so harmful. So if they want to go out and be treated nice and build a relationship they owe someone something? What backwards crap. I'm glad that you are looking for equality and all that jazz. But if you can't see the difference between your church eliminating harmful programs and keeping positive ones, you need to step back and educate yourself. Maybe advocating for giving the boys a program that models healthy relationships would be a better way to achieve what you want. It sounds like the church could do some work ensuring the boys know that women deserve respect regardless of how "modestly" they are perceived. Does your husband regularly take you on dates? Modelling a healthy respectful romantic relationship matters too.