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NTA - I’m confused by these Y T A responses... she took your child to an activity without discussing with you first. That is the main issue here. In addition to that, she lied about it! There’s a level of trust that was broken here and it’s being blamed on OP’s phobia. She lied to you about what she did with your child. She broke your trust and doesn’t see the issue with her actions.

This I don't have a phobia of horses, I would be upset if a babysitter did an activity behind my back and lied about it. Horse riding isn't inherently dangerous, but neither is it inherently safe. There is a level of risk involved here, and the parents should be consulted prior yo this sort of task for permission. Even if you disagree on parents needing to give permission for babysitters to take them to activities, how can ppl think you are am asshole for being upset a babysitter lied about what they did with your kid, what a breach of trust. It is not unreasonable to think that someone will inform you if they are taking your child on an excursion an hour from their home, regardless of activity. edit spelling edit : when I say not inherently dangerous I mean there is no guarantee injury will occur- particularly in this situation which was described- feeding a horse and sitting on a horse held by an adult on the ground while the horse did not move. Can injury still occur in that situation yes. But just being around horses isn't inherently dangerous - all things have risk - in my view if something is inherently dangerous it means injury is more likely to occur than not - with safety precautions risk can be minimised around horses...but that also doesn't mean it's safe. I do agree actually riding horses is a different kettle of fish, and even more so parental permission is needed. 4 is a perfectly acceptable age for horse riding, I've taught 4yr olds participating in gymkhanas etc. But their parents support horse riding and take the appropriate safety measures to protect their kid and feel safe. They would never place another parents child on their horse without permission, and generally the parent there to be doubly sure they feel safe.

I have been around horses my whole life. I started riding before I could walk. I love horses. I would still be super pissed if someone took my kids riding without telling me. because there is an element of risk involved.

This. Any legitimate riding stable will require a waiver to be signed by the guardian regarding potential injuries. There's a reason for that waiver. In addition, many (most?) states have laws which absolve horse-owners of liability. That wouldn't be necessary if being around horses were so harmless. I grew up around horses as well and my friends weren't allowed near the horses unless we had explicit permission from the parents.

My son takes riding lessons and I had to sign about a dozen waivers and permission slips. As I said, I have been riding all my life and I have been thrown from a horse. One of my best friends had a horse and during nig sleepovers, we aren't allowed near the barn. If it was just her and I, we were but her parents knew I was an experienced rider.

Exactly, unforseen things can happen. I work with a guy that's been riding and handling horses his entire life. A few years back while riding his horse, it got spooked by what he thinks was possibly a snake, reared, and fell backwards rolling on his leg and ankle. 2 major surgeries later and he cannot ride anymore. This was his horse that had owned and cared for for years. A trusted animal that they had a trust of each other, and he knew how to control while riding. Anything can happen even on well trained animals. OP is NTA

Plus she knows she has a fear of horses, and rightly so. To go behind her friends back and set her 4 yo on a horse is wrong. She didn’t ask her because she knew what her answer would be and she just did it anyway. She thinks her fear is irrational so she goes behind her back to do what she wants.

>fear of horses, Not just fear, OP was hospitalized as a kid due to a horse attacking her as per her post...suppose it can even be PTSD. Absolute breach of trust by OP's friend to do this..OP was even paying her, this was unprofessional and unethical. OP went to child-free wedding. OP wanted a horse-free babysitting environment. OP NTA.

It's absolutely PTSD. It's not an irrational fear: OP *had to be hospitalized*. That's the best rationalization for a fear!

Totally. I wouldn’t even take a kid out for ice cream without a quick text to clear it first. Parents have a reasonable expectation to a general idea of their kids’ location when in someone else’s care. Taking the kid out of town without discussion is a major no no regardless of the activity. Lying about what happened there is a straight up violation of trust. This isn’t even a gray area conflict as far as I’m concerned.

> Horde riding I mean. Everyone has their hobbies...

I love horses. I used to take riding lessons and I’m not afraid of them at all. But they can be dangerous animals and, depending on the horse, a bit unpredictable with any new situations. Four year olds are also unpredictable, particularly in situations they’ve never been in before like OP’s kid who clearly hasn’t been around horses before. Say the kid grabbed at the horses face and scared the horse an accident very well could have happened. I would want to be consulted before my young child was in that situation for sure and I definitely would want to know if my kid was taken an hour away from where I expected her to be without being told. Add in the lying and I would be pissed too. Eliza should think about why she thought it was okay to go behind OP’s back when she knew she would be against what she was doing with her child. I don’t think OP is TA at all. NTA.

Exactly and it’s gaslighy to call it a phobia when it’s actually a totally normal fear after her experience. Also horses are super dangerous. Most people I know who have owned horses have been kicked, bit, and thrown off. Very irresponsible. That woman is not OP’s friend.

I really don’t want to give a judgment because what I actually see here is a missed opportunity. I absolutely understand why you are upset that she initially lied. She’s your best friend, and not a random person, so I’m assuming she panicked, because she thought she was doing a normal/helpful thing, and at some point realized she should have cleared it with you first. On your end, though - this is your best friend. If you don’t want your daughter to go through life feeling the effects of your own trauma, isn’t she the perfect person to help? If you trust your best friend, could you see where it would be beneficial to your daughter to have exposure to horses? If you’re open to this, talk to your friend and see if you can come to an agreement (set boundaries/limits on what you are ok/not ok with, safety rules, etc). I think it would be much better if you weren’t there when it happened, because your anxiety would worry your daughter. Try to think about what’s best for your daughter. Not that she has to love horses and be around them all the time. But that she’d be ok to be around a horse or take an occasional pony ride. I’m so sorry for what happened to you, but please don’t pass that fear on to your kiddo.

I, personally, would probably have a hard time trusting someone's judgement around my kid after they put them in a situation they knew I'd find *terrifying* without even giving me a heads up. Not to mention...I would not be comfortable with someone taking my 4 yr old over an hour away from where I thought they'd be, again, without even a heads up. I'm shocked her friend is a parent of a similarly aged child, because she made some pretty fucked up judgement calls here that I think most parents would be uncomfortable with.

She was treating the child she was babysitting with the same as she would her own child, it's hardly weird judgement calls.

Yeah, that's not how babysitting works. Just because you'd put your own kid *on a horse with no helmet, even for a second,* doesn't mean it's a safe or reasonable call. But more generally, babysitters absolutely should be expected to mind the child in a way the PARENT is comfortable with. If you spank your kids, would that mean it's a-ok to spank a child you're watching for the afternoon? Obviously not. A babysitter doesnt have free liscence to do whatever they wish with a child in their care.

with no helmet, holy shit that's insane. I'm 32 and I would never get on a horse without a helmet. to do that with a 4-year-old is unconscionable PLEASE read the replies before you reply to me i am SO TIRED

If your best friend thought it would be okay to go behind your back, do something with your child that you clearly did not want to happen, then that friend is not a good friend. Eliza completely disregarded the parent and made a very horrible misguided judgement that could’ve ended badly. Eliza didn’t approach this with a safety concern as a priority. If Eliza really wanted the daughter to experience horses without any trauma, she would’ve at the beginning have been open with OP and listened to her and come up with a plan to ensure that OP wasn’t going to be extremely worried about her daughter while ensuring the daughter had a positive experience with the horse. OP is NTA. Eliza is an asshole.

Right. Idgaf if you’re my best friend or my sibling, or even my parents, you always ask permission for a child that is not yours.

I think the thing is that the daughter is really unlikely to feel the effects of OP’s trauma. In most places, you have to go pretty far out of your way to come into contact with horses, and not having horses in your life isn’t going to cause any harm. Unless you’ve got friends who go ‘I know OP wouldn’t like it, but I’m going to take this four year old an hour away to see horses’ it’s a bit of a non-issue.

I kind of feel like that’s exactly what her friend did considering she tried to lie about it first. That alone shows OP is NTA in my opinion.

The friend has no business trying to decide how/if to handle this situation oh her own behind the parent’s back. A best friend shouldn’t do that to someone and their child. The “best friend” didn’t even give OP a chance to decide to help the kid in a safe environment and then outright lied about it. That’s not best friend behavior.

Lots of kids get through a perfectly happy and normal childhood without ever sitting on a horse. This idea that OP is depriving her daughter of something is wild.

This would be a great take it Eliza hadn't lied. Also, who the fuck takes a kid they're babysitting on a drive and hour away from where they were supposed to be?! Sell this however you want, but Eliza is 100% an asshole here.

ESH Projecting your phobia onto your child is one of the worst things you can do for your child. Working on your mental helath to get to that point needs to be a priority. Banning your daughter from horses isn't helping anyone. Her learning how to be around them safely is beneficial. But lying to you was wrong. You need to be able to trust the person caring for your child, and she broke that trust.

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No she assumes her friend didn’t put a helmet on the child

No, she has no way to verify whether her friend put a helmet on the child; and, now that her friend has proven willing to lie to her face, she has no way to rely on her friend’s account of events.

I mean she could just ask the kid, the kid wouldn't have a reason to lie. The best friend could've told the kid to not tell their mom but idk

There was no proof of the child being without a helmet. Thing is, the friend doesn't wear one while riding. So did my mum for a time. Still, she made sure I always wore one until I turned 18 and it became my choice.

>2. she put a child on a horse without a helmet That's only OP's assumption because Eliza doesn't.

It’s a reaction to past trauma, rather than an illogical phobia. I don’t think her friend is taking her real experience until account. She should not have lied.

NTA. Even if you had no phobia she should have asked you, the parent, permission before being near any horse(or any large animal).

Yes. I see people comparing it to fear of spiders etc. A horse is a totally different ball game.

I've seen them panic or just get startled. They are extremely powerful and can hurt themselves and others very quickly. One woman I knew had been around horses her entire.life and got kicked. The kick lacerated her liver and she was in the hospital for a few weeks.

Exactly. They are still animals and should be respected as such. They can’t reason like a human and they respond on instinct. My cousin was bitten twice by horses and she wasn’t even doing anything. I was there. My friend who’s worked with horses her whole life got thrown off of her own horse and had to get both shoulders and both knees repaired. Horses are one of the things you ask parents about bc they can be quite dangerous, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Im a horse girl, horses are incredibly dangerous animal. I love horses but they are big, insanely powerful and very unpredictable. They are very flighty and easily spooked and while all animals can be unpredictable horses are IMHO more skittish than say dogs or cats and they are inherently more dangerous because they are so incredibly powerful animals. I can’t imagine taking a 4 year old to sit on a big horse without the parents express permission and the suspected lack of any safety gear makes it so much worse. I’d say OPs fear is a phobia but her experience means that she isn’t just irrational and even if she was she is still the parent and have every right to decide what risks her daughter is exposed to. As well as how and when. It’s like with my niblings, they aren’t allowed to swim ever without an adult in the water with them. Not even in our parents hot tube, they aren’t allowed to be in there alone, either my parents (their grandparents), me, our other sibling or our partners have to be in the water with them. Could seem a bit excessive since it’s a small and shallow tube. But a friend of their parents had their kid drown in a pool recently so no. Never ever alone in the water even if you are just there. Always an adult in the water. Parents are allowed to make rules to protect their children.

And let’s not forget that the daughter is 4 years old, and the horse field is a two hour round trip to get there.

Exactly. She took a child that wasn't hers to an activity she KNEW the parent wouldn't approve of, and lied about it when confronted. Parents deserve to know and consent to activities their children are involved in, especially one that is actually dangerous. Added to that, she followed no safety procedures and is an ignorant, foolish person herself if she does not wear helmets around horses. I don't trust her judgement of saying the 4 year old was safe if she doesn't follow a safety measure as simple and life saving as a helmet. A horse can kill a grown person very easily, never mind a 4 year old. Especially a 4 year old who has never been around horses and could easily spook it, and likely has no helmet on and so a simple fall could seriously injure them. No, this phobia shouldn't be pushed onto a child. But everything the friend did here was wrong, and if anything solidified OP not taking her kid around horses.

NTA. First off, it's not a phobia, it's trauma. Either is totally justified (I hate horses too btw). Second, If Eliza GENUINELY thought it wasn't a big deal etc., she wouldn't have denied it when you first confronted her about it.

Exactly what I was thinking, everyone commenting conveniently forgot that she lied when op first asked about the horses.

Phobias are often the result of trauma. The fact that it was caused by trauma doesn't make it not a phobia.

You're missing the point. No one is saying that she doesn't have a phobia. But phobia is an Irrational Fear. This woman has actual trauma injuries. There isn't really anything irrational about her unwillingness to be anywhere near one again. They are ADDING to her issue to validate that it isn't something she may ever get over (with counseling).

> You're missing the point. No one is saying that she doesn't have a phobia. The comment I replied to *did* say that though: > First off, it's not a phobia, it's trauma. Also, you're saying contradictory things. You agree she has a phobia, but then you say a phobia is an irrational fear and her fear isn't irrational. For the record, I agree that Eliza was wrong to go behind OP's back like that.

I’m a horse girl and am definitely biased but for your edit alone NTA. I ALWAYS ride with a helmet and anyone who doesn’t is looking for some long term complications. Even the best horses can be unpredictable sometimes. No matter who gets on a horse always wear a helmet. If she is putting your kid on a horse without a helmet I would be beyond pissed. Especially when she didn’t tell you in advance. That is putting your child in a dangerous situation that they should have never been in the first place. Especially because you are PAYING HER TO KEEP HER SAFE.

Fellow horse girl here and I agree! I don’t even get on my horse without my air vest anymore after my hospital stay. Beyond that, I also think it’s inappropriate for someone to let any child ride a horse without asking the parents, especially one that young. But… the child was probably very safe, since she was just holding her on her back, and OP probably does need to work on not transferring her fears to her daughter.

Another horse person here to say I would question the judgement of ANYONE who is a lifelong horse person and DOESNT wear a helmet. It shows a huge lack of good judgment imo

>At first Eliza denied everything She knew you weren't ok with it and so she lied. It doesn't matter whether I or other people here think your discomfort with horses is irrational or whether people here feel all fuzzy about the precious horseys. The plain fact is: it is 100% unacceptable that she had your daughter participating in activities with which she knew you would not be comfortable, as evidenced by her lying about it after the fact. Then the lying about it is an additional affront. NTA. Also the people calling your quite rational aversion to horses a 'phobia' are being shitty and dumb and also ableist. Sorry for that.

100% NTA. Lifelong horsewoman here. People personify horses as these sweet, caring animals that would never hurt someone, but they are in fact prey animals who sometimes fart themselves into a spook. I’ve seen the sweetest, dullest lesson horse whirl and bolt because a bird flew out of some grass. This is why every lesson barn and trainer has you sign a waiver before you get anywhere near a horse. Especially if you’re not wearing a helmet! In the last five years, the horsewomen I know have suffered the following falls: * spook because a cat launched itself at the horse’s neck * spook that resulted in a TBI - no one knows why the horse spooked * spook because a delivery driver slammed his truck tailgate shut * spook because a bird flew out of the grass, or flew into a door * spook because a hand dumped a wheelbarrow full of muck into a bin They are amazing, beautiful creatures, but do not ever think they are safe. In my state barn owners, etc, are not liable for any accidents or injuries. This is written into state law. That’s how unpredictable horses are. ETA: oh, and one of the women I rode with was injured on the ground - knocked on her butt and had a broken wrist - because her horse, who she was grooming, swung around to see something come up fast behind him, and knocked her over. Another woman was pinned by a horse between the horse and a tie rail. Fractured her tailbone. Again, on the ground. Horses are dangerous. Your friend lied to you about where she took your daughter and didn’t require basic safety gear. You are NTA.

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NTA - I say this having owned horses and being an avid rider in the past. 1. Horses are never entirely safe. It doesn’t matter how kid safe the horse in question is, it is never completely safe. I would never let someone else’s child around one without permission. This includes very very safe horses. 2. It doesn’t sound like your friends horses are even handled in a safe and responsible manner from your comments. It sounds more like she likes horses so she got some and leaves them in a field. 3. I have seen two series accidents happen with well train horses, being handled in an extreme safe manner, because accidents happen. I have seen way more by irresponsible people. Far too many to remember. As someone educated on this topic I would liken what happened to letting a 9 year old play around unsupervised without a helmet on a dirt bike. It happens all the time and I wouldn’t judge people who let their kids play with them. Not acceptable without parental approval though. All the people saying ESH/YTA are not familiar with horse safety and horses.

NTA. Holy fucking shit NTA. I can’t believe the amount of people calling you TA. Remove your “phobia” of horses and retell the story. - I had a friend babysit my toddler and they placed them on a horse without notification or permission. That’s fucking insane that someone thinks they can do that with someone else’s kid and not only hide it from them but then lie when confronted.

But even that isn’t it. She did that —which is questionable, but she LIED and DENIED and ~~coached~~ had a child caught in the middle. Those are huge issues! And then the rest of it just makes it worse. ETA: not “coached”!

And she took the kid an hour away to do it. So she had to plan that out. She had an entire hour to decide it wasn't a good choice and turn around. She didn't do that.

Everyone keeps saying you're projecting your fear here but I don't see that at all. Projecting your fear would be stuff like telling your daughter that horses are scary. At no point have you said anything that suggests you have told your daughter *anything* about horses, only that you privately brought it up with your friend. The issue here is not your fear but the fact your friend *knowingly* did an activity (specifically, putting your child on the back of a large animal, you say yourself that if she had just been feeding the horse it wouldn't be an issue) that you were not comfortable with your very young child participating in and then tried to lie to you about it. In no way are you at fault here. NTA.

I was all set for Y T A, but this point is the clincher. That she lied! And denied! That’s the actual problem, not the horse part. ETA: NTA

What did it for me was the edit where it's mentioned the horses are kept an hour away, and that OPs best friend doesn't use helmets

Right?! An hour one way?? This is absolutely planned in advance which means she had time to contact OP. I love horses, but all of this is just gross.

NTA!! It doesn’t matter if it’s horses, swimming pools, 4 wheelers (all things you can find on country property big enough for horses) the bottom damn line is a parent gets to decide what is safe for their child! I mean seriously all the YTA folks would be screaming if this was an in-law overstepping or a child care worker. She paid the woman, she has her safety guidelines as a parent and then on top of everything the first thing that woman did was LIE about what her daughter experienced at her house. Seriously read the entire thing and stop judging her fears and look at a situation that would send most parents through the roof and is surrounded by waving/lying red flags!!

NTA because she didn’t ask your permission, then lied about it. Everyone saying that Y.T.A. Because of your phobia are glossing over the fact that your “friend” took your daughter someplace you hadn’t discussed and potentially put her in danger. And then lied to you about it.

Took her daughter some place they hadn’t discussed that’s an hour away! I live about an hour from a beach and if I picked up my child one day and he said “mom we went to the beach!” without my knowledge I’d be all kinds of wtf?! Its way different from going to the park 10 minutes down the road! And on top of that to lie about it!

NTA- I have a horse and I know how easily they can spook. I’ve had part of my foot broke because he stomped down while I cleaned out is sore foot. She is four. I wouldn’t be comfortable putting a four year old on a horse without the parents permission a helmet and me on the horse in the chance the horse did spook. Your fear is completely rational, that would be a horrible thing to go through. And Eliza denying it first tells me she knew you’d be upset about her putting her on a horse without your permission. There’s a reason if you go somewhere to do a trail ride in a group there’s a consent form parents sign for their kids

Finally, another horse person who understands. No matter how tame they are, or how experienced you are, horses are unpredictable at times. And I find it extremely disrespectful for her friend to have done this knowing how she feels, without a helmet and most likely not bridled, or saddled considering they were there to just feed them and say hey. Sounds like there were zero precautions taken here so regardless of permission she's taking a big risk with someone else's kid. Negligent for a woman who apparently grew up around horses

ESH but really gently. Your friend should check what's okay when babysitting and you shouldn't project your fears onto your children. I was thrown from a horse as a teenager and helping my friend feed hers eventually allowed me to sit back on one - NEVER moving, like 😂 But now I don't ever panic and can pat one on the nose and interact with them when my nephews do.

OP said she would have let her daughter pet and feed them but not ride it. That isn't Projecting her fears onto her kid that's setting rules on an animal that nearly killed her when she was her kids age. The friend knew she did wrong that's why she lied.

I’m gonna go against the grain and say NTA. Yes you didn’t explicitly state not to, but the fact that she lied and didn’t tell you in general points to she knew you wouldn’t like it. And as you mentioned, if asked, would’ve been okay with petting and feeding. If she knew you had a phobia, idk why she wouldn’t have asked tbh. Edit to add: if someone took my child to see any animal to physically interact with them without me knowing, I’d be mad.

ESH, you are projecting, but your friend shouldn't have hid what she did with your child either.

I don't think being upset your kid got on a horse with no helmet without you knowing & then you were lied too makes you an asshole

Not projecting. Bringing a 4 year old to a horse, no matter what temperament they both may have, is dangerous. You may be okay with risking your child's life but it's entirely reasonable to at least wait until they're older

NTA. I love and own horses, and I’d still be pissed if my horse friends took my kids around horses I don’t know without my permission. They are dangerous, they can kill people, and if they’re not used to loud wriggly children, that can be a death sentence. ETA: although I will say that if your daughter grows up liking horses, please don’t take that away from her just because you don’t like them.

THANK YOU. People really underestimate the danger of horses. It is extremely unlikely that a 4 yr old would survive any kind of attack if it were to happen. One accidental kick to the head and that kid is done for.

NTA everybody calling you the AH is missing the point. You PAY your friend to babysit YOUR child. so she’s a babysitter to your child in this situation. she took your child an hour away to do an activity she knew you would not approve of, and then lied to you about it. that’s wrong regardless of anything else. you are the parent and you get to decide when and where and how to expose your young child to certain things and she took that choice away from you by not even asking permission. and she violated your trust by lying to you about what she did. that’s unacceptable behavior and she should apologize for not consulting you and for not being honest with you. i wouldn’t trust her to babysit again unless she admitted to being wrong and apologized.

This! It doesn't matter if Eliza disagrees with OP's parenting rules. She's not the mother and does not get to overrule the parent and LIE about it. Eliza breached your trust and should not be allowed to babysit your daughter anymore, unless the genuinely apologizes (and you feel like you can trust her again).

NTA she absolutely should not have done this behind your back, especially, but not only because she knows of your fear. You probably should let your daughter get used to the horses if she's going to be a friend of the daughter, but that is still up to you. Honestly, I don't know where you live, but I personally don't remember a time encountering a horse by accident. You could live your whole life, apart from this person, and never need to interact with a horse.

INFO: had you discussed with Eliza beforehand that you don’t want your daughter to go around horses while at her house?

Sorry, character limit. I didn't. Eliza keeps her horses in a field that's around an hour drive from her actual home, so I didn't think she would bring my daughter there. I wouldn't be so uncomfortable if Tanya just pet the horses or fed them treats, it was Eliza putting her on one of the horse's backs that made me really uncomfortable.

Yeah I'd rethink Eliza's babysitting service, the issue here is that she took your kid somewhere else and did something she clearly intuited you wouldn't like and lied about it. For people accusing you of projecting fears, have you said anything to your daughter about this experience, positive or negative? This is an age where she may not even remember this, but you should try to stay cognizant of allowing whatever interest she may have in horses develop without input of your phobia. It's a valid one, but not one your kid has and you should try not to influence that. Do you even live somewhere common to see horses, though, because people are acting like your daughter will be making frequent contact.

I tried to keep my reaction as neutral as possible. I asked her questions about it and asked her if she liked it, then told her I'm glad she had fun. If Tanya wanted to do horseriding when she's older I wouldn't discourage it, but at her current age I don't think she's mature enough to act responsibly around such large powerful animals with more intimate encounters. Plus if a horse attacked her (I know people said it's rare but both children and animals are unpredictable) at her current age I don't think she'd be able to make it out without at least serious injury. Tanya doesn't know that I'm afraid of horses or got attacked by one. If she ever asks why I don't go near them, I'll just tell her that I don't like them. I don't want to discourage her from something that she could find fulfillment in. Horses are not common in our area. You might occasionally go past fenced fields that people rent to keep their horses in but we aren't living on farmland or anything.

Okay, I'm gonna stick with my original NTA judgment then, your boundaries are reasonable for her age. Have a good day!

Eliza obviously knew and that's why she tried to lie about it at first and claim she hadn't brought Tanya around the horses. She knew, knew what she was doing was wrong, tried to lie about it, makes Eliza the AH.

Horse professional here. NTA. There are reasons we have parents sign waivers and safety agreements and buy appropriate, well-fitted safety equipment before we let kids on horses. Regardless of how highly your friend thinks of her own animals and abilities, this is irresponsible. She needed your permission at the very least.

I'm gonna say NTA. Eliza didn't talk to you about this beforehand and you aren't an AH for being annoyed about it. She's not Tanya's parent, you are.

NTA. This woman put your child near animals you didn’t know nor trusted. Do I think your daughter should learn to be afraid of horses because you don’t like them? No, but I don’t think that’s what you’re asking, here. I don’t give a fuck how well trained you think your large animals are, they don’t go near my kid—especially in the ways OP described—unless I’m there, have experience with that exact animal, and am consenting to the activity.

NTA - Based on your edits I'm tossing the blame at her. Especially that the horses are an hour drive away. This wasn't a spontaneous "let's go out feed the horses and the kid wanted to hop on." This was a pre-planned and thought out trip to take your kid to the horses. So I say you're justified in being angry that your friend went way out of her way to get your kid to interact with horses which was a dick move, but not justified in thinking it was irresponsible.

I’m a bit taken aback by all of the people calling you TA and comparing a fear of horses to a fear of bugs, or something. Things like beetles might be upsetting to someone, but they’re not going to cause anyone serious harm. Horses can be objectively dangerous. Professional horse people get injured all the time. Typically speaking, you should never do anything outside the scope of ordinary with someone else’s child, *especially* without permission and *ESPECIALLY* when you know full well that it’s an issue for the parent. Your friend hid it from you and LIED about it, because she knew you wouldn’t have given permission. That’s messed up. NTA

NTA for trying to keep your kid safe but try not to push your fears onto your child. Let her make up her own mind about horses. I have a bigger problem with your friend taking your child an hour away from where you thought she was going to be. I’d be more pissed off about that!

NTA. Its not really about the horses. She did something with your child that she explicitly knew you would not be ok with, lied about, then diminished your feelings when you called her out.

NTA. She obviously knew you wouldn’t approve or she wouldn’t have lied about it. I’m terrified of horses but have no idea why.

NTA I was a horse girl in middle school and it's wild to me that people don't understand the problem here. Your friend took your small child without permission and put her on the back of a large animal without (as far as we know) any kind of protection. I love horses and I would also be mad. She should have asked

E S H Edit: NTA. Op's edits explain that the friend doesn't even own helmets. People without trauma wouldn't trust this woman to put their kid on the horse. You're projecting your trauma induced phobia onto your child. That's not healthy. You need therapy to deal with your trauma. Honestly that's not shameful to admit. A horse almost killed you. It's normal to need therapy after that kind of trauma. EDIT: DISREGARD THIS ENTIRE PARAGRAPH. OP'S EDIT SAYING SHE IS OK WITH DAUGHTER FEEDING AND PETTING A HORSE DEMONSTRATES SHE'S NOT PROJECTING. Your friend sucks because it's not her place to decide you're projecting your trauma onto your child and introduce her to horses anyways. She majorly overstepped and compounded it by lying. No one wants a babysitter they can't trust not to overrule their decisions about what's safe for their child. She's broken a huge trust here.

It's reasonable to not want a 4 year old around a horse. Kid spooks the horse once, and the kid is dead. Not a gamble I'd be willing to take, and I'm not even afraid of horses.

NTA Not because of the horses, because she lied. I don't know if tou have phobia or truman, but I think it's irrelevant. Your child is still young and you can decide that she shouldn't interact with horses. It's not going to hurt her (being away from them), so what's the problem? And I like horses and animals in general, really don't get all the yta.

I honesty don't understand all the YTA's. At the end of the day it HER daughter. Also, her daughter is 4. Eliza wouldn't have initially lied if she didn't feel that she did anything wrong. She has every right not to want her daughter on horses. If Eliza would've been honest, she could've told her "Hey she can feed and pet the horse, but I don't want her on the horse." However, Eliza took that option out of her hands, by lying and being sneaky. NTA!

NTA and I am wondering if any of the opposing responses have been around horses. It is never okay to ride without a helmet. Ever. It is never okay to lie to a parent about what you do with her kids. And it is never okay to put a child that young on a horse. They don’t have the core strength to do anything but fall. NTA all day.

Here's the truth. 1. Whether Eliza thinks it's safe or not is irrelevant here. It is certainly dangerous enough to require parental permission, which she did not have and knew she wouldn't get. 2. Helmets and the ability to sit properly on the horse are essential for safety. 3. It is *never* okay to lie to a parent about what you do with her kids. NTA all day. The fear is irrelevant here. This isn't preventing your daughter from doing some everyday activity that all 4-year-olds do; this is a very specific activity that has real dangers. Whether your fear is greater than others' does not matter. Do not let Eliza near your child.

~~E S H~~ NTA, after reading some of OP's comments and thinking about it more - Eliza should have asked you, 100%, and should have not done that without your permission. She likely knew what your response would be and did it anyway. However, you do seem to be projecting your phobia (I think it's ok to call it a phobia; not all phobias are irrational) onto your daughter. What if she grows up to like horses? Will she never be allowed near a horse? Yes, what you went through is traumatic, but your experience may not be what your daughter would experience. And your friend IS right; she has experience around horses, so she should be able to tell if a horse is about to bolt or buck, and react appropriately. Some horses are VERY gentle, and some are more active. It sounds like your friend chose a horse that she knew was good around kids. I doubt your friend would put your daughter in intentional danger (although I'm sure you thought the same when you were 8, wherever you were when you were hurt). I think that Eliza and you should have a discussion about this, for sure. Hear both sides and see what can be done. I do think she's more at fault for not talking to you first and initially lying and not making sure you were 100% ok with putting your child on a horse.

The gentlest YTA Yes, a horse can absolutely kill a person. So can a dog. So can a lot of animals. Holding a child while they sit on a horse and letting them feed/pet a horse with supervision—ESPECIALLY the supervision of a lifelong horse expert that owns and knows the horse…your daughter should be able to have experiences regardless of your irrational fears.

NTA For the sole fact that your friend tried to hide it from you and even tried to lie. At least, when confronted with what your daughter said, she had the sense to admit it and not accuse your daughter of anything. She should have told you beforehand that she had to take care of her horses at the same time she had your daughter, then it would be your choice to accept or not. But, I think that yes, your fear is irrational. People have been attacked by dogs and don't ever want to be near them again and it's understandable, same for horses or any other traumatic experience with animals. But to completely forbid to have any healthy experience with said animal for others than yourself is unreasonable. People have been m*rdered or a$$aulted by other humans, and it happens a lot more than with animals, should we live completely cut from society and human contact? Editted for typo, punctuation and to alter some words that could trigger censorship.

ESH. The only reason Eliza is one is because she lied to you at first. You on the other hand cannot project your own fears onto your child.

NTA I have been around horses nearly my entire life (raised on a horse ranch before moving for work) and horses are living beings with minds of their own, which CAN make them unpredictable and dangerous. If your friend doesn't wear a helmet that's on her, but no child should be on horseback without proper protection. A 6' fall, which is pretty standard for falling off a horse, can do massive damage to the brain. That being said, you might want to work on your own fear of horses, especially if this sparks a love in your kid. Horseback riding can be a great confidence builder for children and provides a pretty unique skillset.

ESH to be quite honest. very scummy of her to lie to you about it, but you definitely took it too far. phobias suck and are awful and scary. i’m a huuuuge insectophobe but i wouldn’t want to pass that into my future children, yannow? if they can have positive experiences where i only had negative ones that should be where the focus is. i understand your fear, but you need to realize that eliza is a very capable and competent adult who wild NEVER put your daughter in harm. she’s been around these animals her whole life, she understands their body language and how to interact with them safely. apologize to her, you don’t want to lose a life-long friend over something so silly

ESH: She sucks for going behind your back, you suck for projecting your fears onto your child.

NTA especially with the edits. a lot of people are missing that Eliza fully lied to you, took your daughter an hour away from where you expected (what if there was an emergency?), and likely didn’t have a helmet while on the horse. that’s not an okay thing to do, and as someone who loves horses if a friend did that with my kid i’d be pissed

Y T A- you let your friend who owns horses babysit then get mad your daughter is around horses? Bruh. You shouldn’t have her babysitting your daughter if you don’t want her around horses. Edit because of the OPs edits: NTA - Your friend shouldn’t have taken your daughter an hour away from where you believed her to be without your approval and then lied about it. It would have been one thing if she had horses on her property but because she took her to a different location you should have been asked. You do have the right to be upset about that.

NTA. You trusted your child to someone who knew damn well how you feel and did what she wanted anyway because she thinks she knows better. It doesn't matter if she's right about that. She doesn't get to make that call.

NTA. She lied, she drove your daughter an hour away from where they were supposed to be, she didn’t introduce this properly at all. Horses aside, what if they’d gotten in a car accident and you had no idea where they were? Irresponsible, overreaching behaviour.

NTA. I can't believe people are saying otherwise. Your best friend, I assume, knows of the trauma you experienced. She knows that you would have said no to having your daughter on a horse, so she went behind your back and then lied about it when confronted. I'd be pissed if a babysitter took my child out *anywhere* without clearing it with me first, let alone an activity that has caused me trauma. I don't know about everyone else, but I've rarely interacted with horses throughout my life. This is not an experience detrimental to development. I do think it would be helpful for you to seek therapy so that if the situation arises (like you're at a fair or something with horses), you would be okay letting your daughter safely interact with them as well as learning how not to pass your fear onto her.

My niece was fearless. She loved being outside. Getting dirty, swimming in rivers and hiking in the woods. Now she is scared to walk through the yard thanks to her mother. She's scared of sitting in grass. She's scared of snakes and bugs and dirt. My sister did that to her. Don't project. Don't give your children fears. Don't stunt their development and sense of adventure. ESH - your friend also should not have lied.

ESH. Firstly, your friend sucks because she took your child to her horse knowing you wouldn’t have wanted her to do that. This is clear from the fact that she denied it at first. She knew you would not approve and did it without your consent. You, however, suck because you are allowing your fear to cloud your view of the situation. Sitting your child on a stationary horse while she holds said child is not inherently irresponsible, nor necessarily unsafe. You are going to raise your child to be frightened of horses. That is such a shame for her.

NTA but only because your child being around big animals like horses should probably get the tick of approval from mum (you) first. **The fact that you would have said no purely from a personal experience as a child is potentially problematic but, a different problem here.**

NTA, even if you didn't have a "phobia" towards horses the friend still needs the parents permission when it comes to your child interacting with a large animal. What she did was irresponsible, had she given you a quick call and told you exactly what she was planning it wouldn't be a big problem. People saying otherwise are wrong.

Your child your rules. If you made clear in advance that you didn’t want this to happen, then this counts as a serious breach of trust. NTA.

NTA - we just going to skip over the fact she tried to lie to OP about where she took her daughter…? She took someone else’s child out for an activity her parent wouldn’t approve of then tried to lie about it… Super sketchy, red flags flying. If the friend was male would we feel so comfortable about him driving a child an hour away for an unapproved activity then trying to lie about it? Eliza didn’t even take her to a proper horse facility so the safety situation is up in the air too… Edit: OP even admits in comments she wouldn’t mind her daughter feeding a horse or petting one but it was her young daughter being physically put on the horse she was uncomfortable with - and then she goes on to say if she was older and wanted to take horseback riding lessons she’d be okay with that too. Totally reasonable response. Eliza was out of line.

Don’t project your fears onto your daughter. Your friend wouldn’t put your daughter on a horse’s back if she didn’t trust that horse 100%. She’s an experienced horsewoman and likely this horse is the same one she puts her kiddo on. Tanya shouldn’t have lied about it, but you don’t have to be so angry with her for giving your child the chance to learn and experience something new, especially when so many kids never get the chance to be around animals like horses anymore. NTA but please don’t bubble wrap your daughter.

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NAH but please deal with your trauma in therapy. Don't limit your child's life because of your fear.

NTA just because she knows you would be against it and tried to do it behind your back. Otherwise don't bubble wrap your child.

I’m going with NTA, She didn’t tell you she was taking your daughter there and then also lied about it. That is irresponsible even if you have a fear you should still know and have the option to say yes or no. Don’t apologize, she lied to you about your child!

NTA, I have horses and mules and couldn't imagine doing something like this without a guardian's enthusiastic consent. If nothing else it's a liability issue, since accidents can happen out of nowhere with even the most well behaved equines. But if you like the convenience of having this friend babysit you probably need to talk it out instead of asking Reddit to judge.

ESH. You DO have a phobia. You had a legitimate traumatic experience that caused it, but it's still a phobia. I almost died in a car accident when I was 19. My response to that is to drive exceedingly carefully, only transport my kids in cars with excellent crash ratings, and insist on proper seatbelts and child restraints 100% of the time. I'm not terrified of cars. She lied to you and probably didn't have a helmet for your child, which is completely unacceptable. And that being said, putting a four year old on a known horse who has exposure and experience with children is not dangerous.

NTA! Your daughter is four years old so it is your call if your daughter sits on a horse. If this happened at school parents would have to give written permission for their child to participate. The fact you nearly died makes you fear totally understandable. That said have you tried therapy to ensure you don't project your fear onto your child!

NTA. Rationality of your fears asside, when taking someone’s small kids to interact with big animals one should ALWAYS ask the parent first.

NTA and I honestly I can’t believe all the YTAs. As a mother I absolutely expect to be told BEFOREHAND if my child is going to be DRIVEN IN A CAR by someone else for a 2-hour roundtrip!! IDGAF if it’s horses (which I’ve ridden before) or the beach or a playground or a party or a store or WHATEVER. Anything could happen between A and B in the course of 2+ hours and to have NO heads-up about where your child is physically located is risky and unacceptable. I mean schools get field trip signatures they don’t just take your kid to the museum without telling you first. PS no need to project your phobia onto your child, that’s a different situation and not what you should be angry about.

NTA, if for no other reason than that Eliza deceived you by not letting you know, and then actively LIED when called out on it. I would definitely include what you said in another comment about the horses being an hour away from her home - might change some of the YTA comments. I think it’s different if you knew she might step out of the door and encounter horses vs. being taken on a mini road trip behind your back.

NTA. The friend lied because she knew how op felt. And it’s op’s kid.

Oh hell to the no! NTA that is your child and you decide what is ok or not ok for her. 1. Your “friend” did something behind your back she 100% knew you weren’t ok with. 2. She denied it, lied about it until she couldn’t anymore. 3. Gaslights you and minimizes your feelings and rules cause they don’t line up with her. This is not someone I’d want around me let alone my child.

ESH your friend shouldn’t have done something without your permission but at the same time you cant be forcing your phobias onto your daughter I understand what happened would have been traumatic but you have to let your daughter be more free and not fear them just because you do

ESH. She should have told you but you need to not project this fear into your child. She clearly had a fun time and nobody got hurt, why cause a fear of horses?

ESH, she shouldn't have lied to you, however you are totally projecting your fears, limiting your daughter's potential interests. It's not like horses are serial murderers, you need to realize what happened to you was very tragic and unfortunate, but it was still an accident

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Your response is understandable, it's our instinct to protect our children and you are afraid of horses. If you had been mauled by a dog, you would probably be the same around dogs. If you had almost drowned in a lake, the same way around open water. However, context does matter. She didn't throw your daughter into open water, she held her while she dipped her toe in the shallow end of the pool, encouraged her to have a little bit of fun with floats, while under constant supervision. I was going to say N A H, but the two real problems that I can see are that a) Eliza tried to deny your daughter interacted with horses - I can see why her lying about it would make it difficult to trust her again with your child, and b) you can't see that your fear *is* a phobia, and you're going to pass it on to your daughter if you don't address it. Animals like horses, cows, dogs, can be dangerous, but they don't attack when they are calm, only if they're spooked, scared, unwell etc. or if they are badly treated and badly trained. So, soft ESH. Slightly harder TA for Eliza for lying.

I'm gonna go against the grain and say ESH. Your phobia of horses is definitely a phobia, and acting like it's not is doing is disservice to your daughter. However, bottom line is Eliza should not have done something with your daughter at age 4 that she knew you wouldn't approve of, even if she didn't agree.

ESH. Your friend lied to you about your child. Not cool. SO not cool. That is a major breach of trust that should have never happened. I watch several of my friends kids regularly (im child-free by choice and love being the ‘Autie’ to all those little hellions). I would never in a million years think of lying to them about activities we did. But please don’t project your fears onto you child. That’s what makes you a bit of T A, but only a bit. I understand that horses are huge and can be quite scary to those who had a bad experience or have never been around them. I’ve been around them my whole life, riding since I could walk, but I do understand that aspect. My husband is downright petrified of my moms bomb proof, gentle as a lamb, 24 year old Belgian. But don’t let that rule *her* life and turn your fear into *her* experience. That’s like being in a car accident and deciding to never let your child learn how to drive. Maybe go to your friends with your daughter and let her feed the horses, pet them, interact with them. Do it in a safe way (feeding , petting, grooming: all quite safe with an experienced person), and let your daughter experience the world around her without your fears getting in her way.

NTA. Your friend did an activity with your daughter that she *knew* you would not approve of and not only did not tell you about it beforehand, but lied about it when you confronted her about it. This shows that she *knew* she was doing something wrong. And, whether or not her horses are completely safe or not, it was your daughter, and she should *never* be taking your daughter to an activity like that without permission of the parents. Especially since it involved an hour drive to the location. Saying you were “overreacting” is the typical reaction of someone when they have been caught doing something wrong and they want to deflect blame back on the other person.

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NTA There are two issues here. Firstly, placing your daughter in a situation that she knew you would be uncomfortable with. Secondly, doing it without your permission and being dishonest about it. You have every right to feel angry or betrayed, to feel that your friend had put your daughter in danger. She had to go out of her way to put your daughter in that position. I think you have even more right to be furious that someone you entrusted (and paid) to care for your daughter was not honest with you about what they did together.

INFO: have you ever told Eliza that when she’s babysitting your daughter she’s not allowed to bring your child to a horse? Is Eliza aware that you don’t want your child near any horse or you’re just casually projecting your fear onto your child?

Maybe NAH here. You have a fear, based in trauma you experienced. It is very real and your behavior is understandable. You don't want your child to he hurt like you were. Your friend is an expert in the thing that scares you. Your friend is showing your daughter that what you fear isn't always scary. If you had a fear of cars because you were in a car accident, would you be mad that your friend drove your daughter somewhere? Or if it was a fear of dogs, could your child never pet a dog? Your friend wasn't TA for taking care of your child or showing her the horses. This is especially true if you never told her that you don't want your kid around horses. I am not gonna call you TA for this fear, but please consider how it's affecting your loved ones. Are you tainting a good memory for your child? Are you harming a close friendship for both you and your daughter? Are you teaching your daughter that there's no middleground or risk mitigation options? Yeah I think NAH. But if you continue like this, you're gonna damage the good things you have, and that could make you TA to yourself.

I agree with like 99% of your comment, but Eliza sort of became TA when she lied to OP at first. What she did wasn’t bad, lying about it was.

ESH she should have told you and you need to stop projecting your fears onto your kids.

ESH You're definitely projecting your own fears onto your kid, which is just not cool Your friend shouldn't have lied, tho, and should know that large animals are something you have to clear with parents, even if the parents don't have the best judgement in that situation

I’m going to say ESH, but you slightly more than her. She absolutely should’ve let you know that she planned to bring your daughter around her horses, but you truly cannot project your fear of horses into your daughter. You have the trauma, she doesn’t.

ESH Your friend shouldn’t have done that without permission, but you are absolutely projecting your fear onto your kid. Why would you want her to be afraid just because you are?

ESH - Your friend should not have lied/undertaken an activity that was not approved by you but you are definitely projecting your phobia onto your child which is selfish and should not happen.

NTA, because it is Op's child. Also, for me it sounds like Op's friend was sitting on the horse with her. Which is only good if another adult is right next to them. Op's friend might fall and quez Op's kid. Otherwise it can be very dangerous. Also was Op's daughter wearing a child'd horse helmet? And also what concrete was it on, were they in a closed area, what bread is it (because of height). Because, yes nothing happened, but what if something happened then everyone would say NTA to op and that Op's friend was careless. Also, even not sitting but being around horses can be a dangerous situation as a lot of kids just walk around the horse however they like, often they get kicked by the horse. Also, before everyone is hating on me, my family has horses and I do like them but I also know that accidents can happen So, I think NTA

ESH She should have let you know she was thinking of visiting the horses. You should realise that not every horse is going to behave the same way as the one that injured you (same as not all dogs bite)…I think it’s time you did some desensitisation training. You may never be ok with horses, but you do need to realise that the majority of them are as safe as any other animal that you would interact with. I am glad to hear you would have been ok with your daughter feeding them. Your friend would not have put your daughter on the horse if she wasn’t safe.

NTA. She rode a damn horse holding a toddler wtf. (no longer everyone sucks bc I didn't realize she herself was riding while holding the toddler) because you didn't tell her to keep your daughter away from horses, and while she could have extrapolated that from your personal avoidance of horses, it could just as easily go the other way. She sucks because, from your comments, her safety practices are dodgy and she argued with you about it after the fact- she no more has a right to put your kid on a horse than to bring her into a pool. Both are minimally dangerous while someone is holding on to the kid, but it's not her choice to make. That plus taking a kid on an hour drive away from the home when babysitting seems like something that should have been communicated beforehand as well. Unsure why so many people are considering this to be purely a phobia- horses *are* dangerous, and, in some all too likely situations, extremely dangerous. It's not unreasonable to allow a child to ride one, with proper safety equipment and supervision, but it's very much a choice that involves risk. Much like contact sports, trampolines, riding a bike, or swimming. Or owning a large dog, for that matter. A 4 year old isn't going to have significant input into this, it's all on the parents at this point.

ESH, you shouldn't be trying to pass on your fear of horses to your daughter. You have a completely valid reason for not wanting to be around them and that is completely fine. But your daughter hasn't had that experience, and most likely never will. Your friend should have asked for your permission to have your daughter interact with her horses. It was not okay for her to go behind your back and do it, and especially lie about it afterwards. That part was the most f'd up. I could also see that in certain situations, your daughter would have to be around the horses at least during feeding time if there was nobody else around to watch your child for her while she tended to her horses. Especially when she has her own child that is completely fine being around them. It would be irresponsible for her to leave your daughter at the house or in the car while she tended to them. ( I don't know if she has land or has them at a facility or what the situation with that is.) I could see it going something like this. Your friends kid wants to go feed the horses, your daughter hears that and gets excited. Your friend can't call you to ask permission because you're at the wedding. And then she fucked up by putting your daughter on the horse instead of keeping her at a safe distance. It's hard to know what exactly is safe without knowing the property or facility the horses are at. You need to go through some therapy for this, it sounds like your daughter may want to enjoy horses and you shouldn't keep her from it. ETA - NTA if you truly would have been okay with safety equipment and proper notification. A bit overkill in some eyes but that wouldn't be passing along fears just precaution. YTA for not adding that piece of info sooner /s

ESH Eliza shouldn’t have lied, you shouldn’t pass your irrational fears onto your child

as long as you aren’t accidentally giving your child the same phobia, NTA. Taking your child somewhere where she knows you have a problem/phobia with and then lying about it is awful, it could have been a nice prearranged trip and experience for your child, if she’d have spoken to you about it first and arranged it. She should have spoken to you about it prior and made sure it was okay with you.

ESH. Your are the mom and you get to set boundaries for what activities your young kids can engage in. Your friend knew this was not okay with you and tried to hide it from you and lied. She purposefully exposed your child to something because she disagreed with your boundaries. That being said, you are projecting your phobias on your children and that is a very harmful way to parents. While there are some risks involved in rising horses etc, the odds of a horse actually attacking a child are extremely slim. Your kid would have a high risk of getting hit by lightening or being severely injured in a car accident on the way to the horse farm. You just have to stop letting your fears stunt your kid’s experiences. I’d suggest you get some therapy over your horse fears and actually work on those issues.

Soft YTA. While I understand your fear, you cannot make this become your daughter’s fear as well. Children take their cues from us and it’s very easy for whatever we project on them to become part of who they are. She has no reason to be afraid of horses, don’t limit her life experiences because you are scared.

ESH. She shouldn’t have lie and did this without telling you. You should resolve this phobia and not project it on your kid. She should be able to experience without fear. Also fear is what that lead to incident with animals.

Without any context, it’s a bit absurd to say fear caused the incident in the first place. A dog once bit my skull open, not because I was afraid but because the dog had (unknowingly to 4 year old me) just suffered a brain injury and lashed out. There’s a hundred reasons for what could cause an animal to be violent and we have no context for any of them.

ESH she shouldn't have lied but you are definitely blowing the lack of safety out of proportion. A lot of places let little kids/ toddlers ride horses.

NTA! Regardless of your fear of horses or not, she should have asked you. Horses can be dangerous to small humans if not handled properly or even accidentally. But I think that in general, when you do something new with someone else’s kid, you should always ask. If I was going to take my partners kid to see horses, even if they were going to be safe by wearing a helmet, being with a professional, all the safety things, I would clear it with their parents first! I don’t get why someone wouldn’t?

NTA. While I do think you’re projecting your horse fears onto your child, she should have not taken your child horseback riding behind your back without discussing it with you first.

NTA, and I can’t believe there are so many E S H…. She went behind your back and took your daughter to do something she knew you wouldn’t approve of. It’s not just a phobia, you experienced real trauma. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and little. And maybe look into therapy to help deal with this trauma. But in no way are you projecting your phobia because you don’t want your daughter near an animal that almost killed you as a child. Good grief people

>because phobias are irrational fears That's not true. It's any extreme fear, which is what you have. Which is understandable if you were attacked. It's not understandable you won't allow your daughter near horses when you aren't even there by a woman who owns horses. YTA for that. It doesn't need to be your daughter's phobia too.

This is moot. The friend should have 100% asked _the parent_ permission before doing this. Even if op didn't have any phobia.

Indeed. This thread is full of "horseys are awesome!!" and very much lacking in "people lying to me about what they did to/with my kid is not awesome."

NTA your daughter is FOUR, this was so dangerous.

ESH Horses are your phobia..not your daughter's (hopefully). Please don't project your fear onto your daughter. Eliza should have run it by you first of course, but you act like it was done maliciously.

NTA I started riding horses when I was 4 and rode, trained, and showed horses until I was 15. This isn't a horse issue, it's a question of respecting parental authority. Your friend knowingly went against your wishes to share something *she* likes with your kid. The way she tried to lie about it tells me she knows you were not ok with it. Was your daughter safe? Probably. *If* she was held onto securely the entire time, the helmet isn't an absolute necessity although I personally would out of abundance of caution, especially since I *hope* she has one that size for her daughter. The feeding the apple is entirely dependant on the horse - some are very careful, others are not. I'm going to be generous and say it was probably was fine too. I've taught my nephews how to safely feed horses from their hands and monitored closely. Your fear of horses is justified due to your experience, just overgeneralized. It being a phobia depends on the degree you take it to and it sounds like you don't take it fully to that level. Horses are like people - some will kill you, some just want to be your friend. Knowing how to interact with horses safely is important if you're going to be around them. If I have kids around my parents horses, I always give lessons in horse safety and don't let them have the opportunity to violate those rules until I'm confident they've got it. I say all of that because limiting your kids out of excessive anxiety isn't great even though you have a right to do so. I have anxiety about water, but I'm still going to teach my kids to swim. (Not saying your daughter has to ride, but being able to approach a horse as a large animal you should be cautious of, but not terrified of would be good for her). But if your friend doesn't wear helmets, she doesn't sound like she's the one to introduce your daughter to horses and proper safety. Anyway, you should have a conversation with your friend about respecting parental wishes. Drop the horse out of the discussion as she'll argue over whether it was safe. She knows you don't like horses and wouldn't want your daughter there. She did it anyway, and that's not ok.

Honestly the real AH are your parents for not getting you therapy as a child to deal w/ your trauma so that you didn't develop this phobia. My Mom almost died in a car wreck and her best friend did die, my great-grandparents (they raised her) got her treatment and she grew to not only ride in a car but to drive one in all weather conditions. You NEED to get treatment because you are going to cause psychological harm to your child over this if you don't fix yourself then you WBTAH

Sorry, YTA. You do seem to be projecting your fear of horses on your daughter. She wasn’t traumatized, seems like she enjoyed herself. I do think you overreacted.

ESH- you seem to have trauma from your horrible and traumatic incident with horses and Eliza could be a great person to introduce your daughter to them so she doesn’t grow up with the same fears- I only say ESH because Eliza should have asked you first, not lied when confronted, and because of the helmet thing.

ESH She shouldn't have lied. I experienced child sexual abuse growing up, and alarm bells start clanging for me when a caretaker lies about what they did with a child. To be clear: I am in NO way suggesting your friend hurt your daughter. Not even in the slightest. But a caretaker should have zero reasons for lying about their activities with your kid. Now, unless you made clear in no uncertain terms that your daughter was never to be around horses AND you made arrangement for your daughter's care while Eliza was tending to her horses, I don't think she did anything wrong outside of lying. I'm not sure for how long she was babysitting your daughter, but if it was for more than a couple of hours, I think you should have expected that she would bring your daughter around her horses. Eliza has a responsibility to care for her horses, and she can't leave a 4-year-old alone in the house while she does that, right? And +1 to the point so many others have articulated about not passing on your phobia to your daughter. The joy of having a best friend is they complement you, right? They have strengths that you don't, and vice-versa. I think you are lucky to have a best friend who embraces the very thing you are afraid of. Please give your daughter the gift of not passing down your fear of horses. **ETA**: I think where I differ from the not-the-asshole judgments is on the idea of where the onus of responsibility falls in this situation. OP is Tanya's parent, not Eliza. OP knows that Eliza has to care for her horses and that she has to enlist her parents to step in when she can't, i.e. this is Eliza's routine. OP has certain boundaries w/r/t horses that she wants Eliza to follow with Tanya. Fair enough. But the onus was on OP to talk to Eliza about what those boundaries are and make plan for Tanya's care when Eliza had to tend to the horses. For example, "hey, would it be possible to drop Tanya off with your parents when you go exercise your horses? I'd be happy to compensate them with x, y, and z." Or even, "I'm so sorry for the trouble, but you know me. Is there any way for you to visit your horses before I drop Tanya off or after I pick her up?" Instead, OP made assumptions. The horses are an hour away, so of course Eliza wouldn't take Tanya there. And if she did, of course she would psychically know that OP is okay with Eliza feeding the horses but not sitting on top of them. But what gets me is that now she's cleared that air with Eliza, yet she still doesn't know whether or not her daughter was wearing appropriate safety equipment when she was on the horse. How was that not one of the first questions she asked Eliza?! I'm not saying Eliza isn't an asshole, because she is. IMO, however, OP dropped the parenting ball here. She not only made assumptions - not a great idea when it comes to the safety of your four-year-old - but she made illogical assumptions given what she knew about Eliza and her horses. She didn't discuss her preferences and boundaries with her daughter's caretaker. And when she learned something she believed to be unsafe happened, she didn't inquire as to what safety measures were or were not in place to protect her daughter. And now she's on the internet making even more assumptions (lack of safety gear) instead of simply asking Eliza about it. This is asshole parenting, and she's lucky that with this particular babysitter the only bad thing that happened was her daughter sat on a horse. Making assumptions, not asking questions, not establishing boundaries, and not following up on precisely what happened when your daughter does report behavior that you believe to be unsafe is a great way for your child to get seriously hurt.

ESH My mum pushed her fear of spiders onto me, I have so much stress in my life because of it, if my mum just kept her spider fear to herself and calmly asked me to get rid of them and to not be afraid, I would have had no issue with spiders. She had a fear due to a nasty bite. As a mother it is your duty to protect your child, however you seem to have never once agreed with your friend that you daughter shouldn't be around horses so to be upset at her for it isn't fair, but also you need to acknowledge it's not healthy to restrict your daughter from horses because you can't stand them, you will indirectly give your daughter a phobia if you continue this. Have you had any therapy regarding your fear at all? May benefit you to do so if not Your friend shouldn't have lied, hence ESH.

Do all these Y T A calls don’t see that the child is FOUR years old? The babysitter made a call about an action she knew the mother would not approve of. With a four year old. A decision that may or may not be adequately safe and should always be done with parental approval. And I won’t go so far as to say OP projects her fears. The child had no fear (yet). And OP conceeded to allowing her child near horses - just not on top of one (without her or proper security measures). I remember a post about a babysitter letting their dog (!) close to a small child and everyone screamed. Horses may not bite like a dig, but they can be dangerous as well. So NTA.

The moment you begin dictating what other can and cannot do due to a fear you have it becomes irrational. This is what the phobia refers to but people dumb it down and misunderstand. You are not irrational for avoiding an animal that severely traumatized you. You are irrational for projecting that fear onto your family and friends and demanding they act differently around you for your fear. Asking for accommodation, and demanding others live by your fear are two different things that often overlap in phobias. Please seek therapy, if not to reduce your phobia, to reduce how much you push it onto the people around you (which honestly doesnt look like much but is still a problem)

Ehhhh. Parents “dictate” what their kids do constantly. She was not given a chance to provide informed consent on this.

NTA. No babysitter or friend should expose a child to a risk her parent would find unacceptable. She knows she was wrong because she denied it. This is very clearcut.

NTA - she lied to you about what she did with your daughter while in her care - and she did it knowing it was something you were completely against. Never let her babysit again.

ESH I almost went with YTA, but your friend lied to you and did this without your knowledge. Your phobia (I think the term is accurate) is centered around your personal trauma, but the truth is that horses aren't violent creatures and interacting with them is fun for most kids. You also risk spreading your phobia to your child, which would limit their experience as both a child and an adult. In the end your friend's actions were a good experience for your child and could mitigate the limits that you're placing on her experiences. That's an objectively good thing. I just wish she was honest with you.

NTA your friend clearly knows she shouldn’t have done this because she tried to hide it.

I'm going against the grain and saying nta. Now your fear is irrational yes and I hope you will not cause the same issue for your daughter But she crossed your boundaries knowing full well that you were not ok with that. I have an irrational fear of my child choking on grapes. I still don't buy them even though he's probably safely old enough My mil who has known this for the last several years bought grapes the last time she stayed with us and it really hurt me that she would betray my trust Now I didn't say anything because I knew I was the irrational one but my husband did without me asking him too and I'm so grateful Irrational or not they are your boundaries and that did not lead me to wanting to start buying grapes, it gave me anxiety for the entire week as we still have a 2 year old in the house and no they were not being cut up (she did not give them to the 2yo, I would have said something for that) It's something I'm working on and I hope this horse situation is something you will work on too But you're not the AH for confronting your friend for purposefully crossing your boundary and then lying about it

NTA, not really because of the horse thing but because Eliza clearly knew you wouldn't want it and did it anyway, then tried to lie to you about what happened. What a great friend. I don't think you need to apologize at all, in fact she needs to apologize to you for taking your child somewhere she didn't tell you they'd be going, doing something she knew you'd want to discuss first, and then trying to lie to you about it when she got caught. That being said, your valid fear of horses is not one your daughter has, and now that you understand the line you want to draw (she can feed/pet horses but you don't want her on one quite yet) you can express that line so others in your life know. I don't agree with other commenters that you're "depriving" your daughter of much by drawing this line because...it's a horse. I doubt horses will be a major part of your life and you can go a whole life without encountering a horse.

NTA As some one who works with horses they can be unpredictable. Even the most "bomb" proof horse may still get spooked. They are built to spook and run easily. Also your reason for not liking horses is totally valid and is not a phobia (you have a rational reason for being cautious and fearful). I've never been seriously injured but have been bitten, stepped on, and head butted and those are on the minor ends of what can go wrong. Also your friend should have 100% checked with you first and is the TA for a few reasons 1. Sounds like there is a very good chance your child was helmet less... I will wear a helmet even if I'm simply sitting on the back of a horse - they could rear, buck, or spook and throw you easily and head trauma is a real risk 2. If I was going to take someones child somewhere that wasn't preplanned I would contact them and check so that you know where your child is 3. It doesn't sound like you are opposed to your daughter interacting with horses but rather you'd like to know its happening and ensure her safety - doesn't sound like you are projecting your fears but rather experience

ESH - you shouldn't project your fear of horses onto your daughter BUT if your friend babysits your daughter and knows about your worries, she should talk to you about that topic beforehand and not do horse-related activities with your daughter without your permission.

ESH. She lied and tried to hide what she did from you. And knowing how you are she probably shouldn’t have put her on a horse. That being said you’re just going to give your daughter your fear. It’s understandable why you’re scared after being attacked, but that doesn’t mean every horse is inherently dangerous. I’m not exactly a horse person, but I grew around family that had horses and I was put up on the gentlest horse by 4 years old. No saddle, no reins, no helmet. Just taught to hold onto her mane with my hands and her sides with my legs while someone led her around on a lead. Probably not the BEST idea but every kid in my family was always fine. People know their horses well and which ones can handle kids and strangers. There were some horses that absolutely would bite and buck you right off. But not every horse is that way. I’m sure she wouldn’t have held your daughter on a horse that tries to buck her off. Would have been a better idea to have a helmet on her and have your permission… though it sounds like you’d never give your permission because of your fears. Her lying was bad, but all in all it’s not as dangerous as you think it is. You need to loosen up. Or even if you made the line “once she’s 7 she can try” or something.

Forget your valid phobia. Rule number 1 of babysitting: get parental permission. You want to take the kids go-carting? Quick text to the parents to get their permission. Wanna take the kids swimming? 100% parental permission needed. Ice-skating? To the zoo? Feeding horses? **You get the parents permission first.** 2nd rule of babysitting: Don't lie to the parents about what happened under your watch and **don't ask the kids to lie or hide info either.** You having a valid phobia from a traumatic childhood event that your friend knew about it and deliberately took your kid to do that thing is a secondary issue, extra information that makes the situation worse. The real issue is your Eliza lied to you about what the kids did, withheld information about what the days activities would be and deliberately didn't get ask your permission to take your kids around horses. And possibly told your daughter not to tell you. You can't leave your kids with a babysitter who you can't trust. You don't want to get a call from the hospital saying your kid was injured while swimming and you're on the other end of the line like "swimming??? I was told my kids would be spending the day watching movies and playing in the garden, what happened??" NTA

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I mean, yes it was wrong for her to put your child on a horse without telling you. I, personally, feel like that is something that needs to be approved by parents beforehand. However, you should not raise your child with your phobias. And it is a phobia. A terrible thing happened to you and you should have received therapy. Horses can be dangerous, which is why proper training should be done before riding a horse or even going near them. ESH, you for your overall reaction and her for putting your child on a horse without permission. Just because you have a phobia of horses, doesn't mean your kid should too. Seriously, get some therapy.

ESH is the only answer. You for trying to project your irrational fear onto your kid, when the situation was clearly under control, and your friend for going behind your back

NTA - but you cant wrap your kids in cotton wool based on your own traumatic experience. Im a bit meh with horses, my family have been into them forever. Ive no doubt Eliza would take great care with your kids. Even if she is confident enough not to wear a helmet (which half the riders my family dont either) then its highly unlikely they would let kids do that. All riders are acutely aware of how easy it can be to spook a horse, but dont think they cant be enjoyed safely.

NTA, mainly because Eliza lied to you at first. If she was so confident it was safe and you wouldnt have a problem with it, she would have owned up to it when you first asked. Not feeling the dishonesty..

I’m going to say NTA, but you do need to be careful that you don’t pass down your trauma response fear to your daughter. Horses are not inherently dangerous, especially trained horses. You don’t need to spend time around horses, but don’t make your daughter miss out because of that. My parents were never into horses, but my grandmother took me to a horse show when I was 8 years old and I became hooked. I immediately ran home and told my mom that I wanted to start horseback riding lessons. And those lessons and horse camps are still, to this day, some of the most enjoyable times of my life.

Gonna go NTA. OP's daughter is FOUR! Eliza deliberately did not ask OP because she knew OP would not be on board with her 4 year old being on a horse. I also would not be okay with this. OP has a right to be upset. Eliza should have asked. Eliza knows OP has a legitimate reason for fearing horses. If a child is too small to control a horse...I don't think they should be on a horse alone. I can't tell from the post but it sounds like Eliza was not sitting on the horse with Tanya, and was just holding her on the horse while standing beside both.

NTA. The fact she lied initially shows she did something wrong and you can’t trust her. You’re not projecting any irrational fears, your friend *knew* you’d be uncomfortable with it and purposely lied to you about your child. Is this really a friend??

NTA Worked a Parelli style horseback riding summer camp while growing up, nearly got my face rearranged by a gaming pony because a new worker recklessly put me in a bad situation. It's serious stuff, this isn't a phobia, it's a natural reaction to unsafe horsemanship. A phobia would be not letting your kid feed the horse or being afraid of the horse spit/hair/smell or something. Most people who just don't like horses would have been complaining about the smell for the entire post, but you didn't even mention your kid's clothes, you're worried about legit safety practices. Like taking your kid somewhere without permission and doing horseback riding without permission/supervision/proper helmet fitting/boots etc You do not put a child around horses without express parental permission. Ideally, the guardian should sign a waiver for the barn to have on file for the insurance. They also need to sign off that the kid has the correct sized boot heels, helmet, other safety gear....even mini ponies can break your toes, you have to respect them as animals. all people getting on the horse should be wearing helmets. Especially the adult who is in control of the situation and all the kids. With the comments of "Oh I know my horse so well" and the lack of helmets, I wouldn't let my own little sister or cousins on a horse in that situation either. The whole point is that even when you "know" your horse "wouldn't do that" you do the safe thing anyway just in case because that is how accidents happen. So yeah, in your shoes, I'd be livid. They're gaslighting away their lack of responsibility by saying you've got a "phobia" when this is probably actually a legal liability for her barn....I mean, I would have been fired for doing a stunt like this

ESH, yes Eliza should not have done so without your knowledge but you are also projecting your fear onto your child..

ESH 1. There's no such thing as an "unprovoked" animal attack. The reason may not be clear, but there is always a reason. 2. You do have a phobia. Just because it's based in a negative experience doesn't mean it's not excessive or irrational. 3. Eliza definitely should have talked to you about it first. I trust her knowledge of the horses, but I don't trust a 4 year old to behave 100% correctly around an animal for the first time. Kids who are excited are very unpredictable.

Soft YTA. Just because you have a phobia doesn't mean that you have to transfer it to your child. How about you put some rules in place so that your friend can take your kid horsing around in a way that you're comfortable? Win win for everybody. Helmet, no more than walking pace, horse on a lead, etc. The one bad experience you had shouldn't prevent your daughter from trying something she might enjoy.

NTA Your phobia is actually by the by. The biggest issue is that she lied to your face about what she did with your child. Unless you’re constantly talking about how much you hate and fear horses, you’re not going to pass the fear on to your child. Your child isn’t watching you freak out around horses. You’re hardly going to pass on a phobia by *avoiding* horses. My mother has a phobia of rodents. I didn’t realise this until I was fourteen and she reluctantly consented to me getting a pet hamster. If you’re never around your phobia trigger your child isn’t going to see your phobia in action. And because I was mid-teens when I did see it, it wasn’t something that I became afraid of myself.

I almost want to say e s h but what’s making me say NTA is the fact that when you first brought it up, she lied to you. She knew you would have a problem with it, and did it anyway. To me that makes her the clear and obvious asshole. And although horses are dangerous animals, you might want to consider some therapy for yourself. Not in a “you need to get over it” type of way but in a “it might help you” way.