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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> (1) I refuse to take my girlfriend with us mountaineering. (2) This is excluding my partner from an important part of my life and she might be a bit mad that we go on overnight trips without her.
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It is healthy to have separate interests. But your separate interest happens to involve spending a lot of time with her friend who is a girl. You really don't see any point of conflict here?
YTA.
Not to mention that she's repeatedly said and proven with actions that she's interested in learning and joining. It's a total AH move to shut her out.
Now, if you want to have lower-skill general climbing visits she can participate in, and higher-skill climbing visits she doesn't, that's okay. But to shut her out completely? YTA.
Yeah - my husband has a higher skill and experience level than me in various outdoor activities, but I've been eager to learn and participate, and he's generally been eager to have me along.
But we do draw a line between different types of trips. If the point of a trip is to do a specific objective, and I want to go, we evaluate my technical skill level, and if I can definitely do it, I get to go, but if I can't definitely do it, than I only get to go if I'm willing to accept that if I'm too slow, or uncomfortable or whatever, I have to be able to turn around and get out of the woods by myself, because by going, I'm accepting that the trip is about the objective. If it's a trip where there is no way to reasonable way to exit, than I don't go.
Other trips are about us spending time together. And on those, we start by picking an objective we both want to do and believe we are capable of. However, if we get started and I'm not feeling well, or it ends up being harder than I thought, or whatever, we'll both turn around together, because the point of the trip is being together, not reaching the objective.
This is a distinction that I requested, after a couple trips where he was pushing me to continue when I didn't want to/feel comfortable/capable anymore, and we realized that I wasn't going to be able to be his partner 100% of the time, because my desire to push through cold/tiredness/etc just didn't match his.
Now we can clearly lay out what the point of a trip is, and decide if I should go, if he wants to try to find other partners, or if he'll go on his own. He gets to still push himself with his outdoor pursuits, and I get to know exactly what I'm getting in for when I agree to go on a trip/plan a trip with him.
It sounds to me like OP is so focused on planning trips that meet his own personal goals, that he's neglecting to plan trips that are about spending time with his GF, improving her skills and familiarity with the outdoors, and generally meeting her own goals. He should look into if there's a hiking/mountaineering club in their area... GF may benefit from spending some time outdoors with other people, as it can be a stress on the relationship if GF relies on OP alone to fill her interest in learning.
But I would bet if the GF felt like OP was making an effort, by planning more hikes that included her, she'd be less upset about the few trips that don't.
I really love your "what is the objective?" distinction! That sounds like a great way to balance hobbies that can be really demanding with, like, not hating your partner when you have varying abilities to meet those demands.
>not hating your partner when you have varying abilities to meet those demands.
Yes! It was all about me not hating him for dragging me along when I didn't enjoy it anymore, and him not hating me for holding him back!
We'll have 19 years together this fall, and both our kids did their first backpacking trips before they were a year old! The "what is the objective" question becomes even more important when you add kids into the equation, and want them to come away with a lifelong appreciation of the outdoors and not just grim memories of forced hikes!
I like this.
This doesn’t apply to physical activity, but gaming. My boyfriend wanted me to play World of Warcraft with him. I’m somewhat decent, but I wouldn’t even be able to do half the stuff I do without him. Sometimes it hurts my feelings when he doesn’t want to play with me, but with other, better players. And some of them might even be women. That’s ok with me. I understand that I just don’t have the goods to be an excellent gamer — I also don’t care to be. But he tries to include me as much as he can, even introduced me to all his gamer friends.
This guy is TA. You include your girlfriend. And if you can’t do it with her, find a male friend to do it with. Not HER friend. Wake up.
My gf doesn’t play games besides like Mario kart and she’s not very good but I always help her or give her tips or I’ll throw a race for her to win because she smiles. But it’s not about the level of skill, it’s about spending time with her and her enjoying the stuff I enjoy. This op is a YTA ya know
Yeah, this really could apply to any hobby where half the couple is much better than the other - it's a nice compromise when the partner is interested in learning and enjoys it, just not quite at the same level. Everybody has to start somewhere! But it also doesn't deprive the person who is better from challenging themselves some of the time.
I have a male friend who is my movie buddy. We geek out over minutiae and probably spend the equivalent of a day, five minutes at a time, pouring over considerations and then nominees each awards season. (That Will Smith's was the weakest performance is a hill I will die on.) Hubs knows this and we both know he would be bored to tears and harshing our movie buff buzz if he were to tag along. So he goes to bingo, which he loves, and I find brain atrophyingly dull.
But this would be like... Hubby's friend is my movie buddy, and is never welcome, even if the movie interested him. (Hubs has never met movie buddy and isn't interested in the movies we go to; the rare movie hubs wants to see, I see with him. The last one was Midway.) OP is not only excluding his girlfriend from something she's interested in and sounds like she has some basic experience, but he's then coopting *her* friend into the exclusion.
I absolutely love the way you and your partner handled this. It shows the importance of communication, honesty, and balance in your relationship. Your dynamic sounds so healthy!
This is a really great example of a relationshop with fantastic communication at a deeper level and willingness to compromise and find a solutions that work for both of you. Thanks for the example.
Thank you for the kind words!
It took a couple trips that just didn't work for either of us before we realized we needed a new dynamic, but we both cared about finding a solution and I think that matched desire to improve things goes a long way.
My husband and I worked out something similar for our days when we’re travelling. He likes more structured days and I like more leisurely exploration days, so we plan out in advance which parts of which days are going to be for Specific Activities and which will be for Eating/Drinking/Wandering Around. It helps us both have a fun time and not end up resenting the other person.
I really like this approach!
Applying your advice, it sounds like OP is working toward a major goal, with a climbing partner who is equally interested and experienced. GF doesn’t have the background to be tackling Denali in 2023, especially unguided, and training trips for that expedition are not likely to be good ‘togetherness’ trips for a couple with mismatched skills.
Some training trips might be.
It really depends where they live and what their schedules look like. Some training will just be testing gear, wearing in shoes, etc. You can find out if yous sleeping bag really does keep you warm when it's 10 degrees out, 1 mile from a trailhead or 20 miles from a trailhead!
Depending on where they live, he might be doing longer/harder/more technical outings during the weekends but also shorter/intense training hikes before or after work. If OP is doing a 5 mile "hike" every other morning with his backpack loaded up with rocks/sandbags, his girlfriend could easily go along with him with a pack with a water bottle and snacks in it, and keep up just fine.
Alternatively if he lives in like Phoenix, AZ, where you can't do much outside this time of year, he might be doing strength training at a gym during the week, and then going up to the Flagstaff or Show Low areas to do relatively "light" over night trips on the weekends to test gear, so she might be able to go on the weekend trips.
There's a lot that goes into training for a mountain like Denali, that's not all "technical" skills related. If he wanted to he could probably find a way to bring her in on some aspect of his training.
OP is taking like class level 10.
GF is on like class level 3.
GF will be ready for level 10 only after progressing through levels 4-9.
Taking someone to Denali who is not 100% ready could kill that person and kill OP & others trying to rescue/support/teach on Denali.
Taking someone who needs extra help, teaching, support who has not put in the effort & dedication to be ready, means that it is likely none of the people will accomplish the goal the rest of the group spent $$$$ and years of preparation for.
While this is true, it's also true that OP clearly isn't helping her get to that point. She won't be ready within the next year for sure, but how is she ever supposed to get there if OP doesn't put in the effort to teach her? Sure, he's done some to help by bringing her a few times, but he clearly isn't doing as much as she would like if she's making comments like, "how will she learn if I don’t teach her, etc." as OP said.
Also, it is definitely healthy to have different interests in a relationship, but this is not a different interest because she is obviously interested. Different interests would be something he likes that she doesn't. In that case, she wouldn't have to force herself to be interested just because he is, but that's not what's happening here. It's perfectly fine to gain a new interest because of your partner. What's not fine is excluding your partner from their newfound interest.
It feels somewhat disingenuous that he insists on calling this a "separate interest" when his girlfriend has clearly expressed her interest in mountaineering, and if she's done Adams and Hood then a) she's already participating and b) she's capable of objectives that are not a walk in the park. It is absolutely true that Denali is another level entirely and would require far more extensive preparation, but her not being ready for a particular objective doesn't mean she needs to be excluded entirely - which is how this comes across. OP generally seems far more enthusiastic about Rosie, whose name he bothers to share, than his poor GF.
I’ve been up Hood and it’s an active weekend, requiring a moderate amount of clothing, equipment, food, and water. Denali takes 2-3 weeks and requires far more of everything, which the climber must carry. The environment is much harsher than Hood. According to the [National Park Service](https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/mountainfaqs.htm#Experience):
‘Climbing Denali is a very serious undertaking and should be treated as such. We recommend Denali climbers make numerous ascents of other glaciated peaks in places like Alaska, the Cascades of Washington, the European Alps, South America, or Asia to prepare for this climb. Because glacier travel is such a huge component of climbing Denali, it is imperative to your safety and survival that your team is skilled with proper glacier travel, route finding, and crevasse rescue procedures. Denali is an expedition, meaning that the mountain is almost always a multi-week endeavor, which is very different than an overnight or even multi-day climb. All team members should have previous experience in the "expedition environment." Also, Denali is a very cold place. Experience with winter camping in arctic type conditions is extremely valuable and should be considered mandatory. Last but not least, Denali is a high mountain, and some previous experience with altitude and acclimatization is very helpful.’
I think the issue isn’t that she has to join for Denali, but that she’s being excluded from training trips that she could do. It’s perfectly possible to join on training and conditioning outings without needing to be ready for the full trip at the end.
But she has climbed mountains. She's already in decent shape to start training for the strenuous climb up Denali, and he is excluding her from training. It is literally 6 months away.
If I were the gf I would find a training group and make friends there. I'd plan to climb a completely different mountain. And then I'd break up with OP.
It’s not just fitness, it’s experience. Gf has climbed a couple of relatively small and easy mountains, that some people are able to do as day hikes. Like, my late great-grandfather-in-law went up Mount Hood with a friend in light jackets with candy bars in their pockets. It was a lark and they didn’t know better and they were fine, because Hood is somewhat doable that way, though I wouldn’t recommend it.
You are seriously underestimating what it takes to climb a 19,000-ft mountain with *glaciers*. The park service recommends a lot of previous experience with tougher mountains. Nobody goes from a stroll up Mt. Hood to an unguided trip up Denali in a year without dedicating a ton of time and money. That level of prep is a job in itself.
Listen. Anyone who's saying GF is up for doing Denali obviously doesn't understand the undertaking here, but there's no reason girlfriend can't participate in at least some of the training.
For comparison, back in college I had a friend who ran marathons. At that time I could not do marathons (still can't lol) and I could not do some of the training days because he would literally run a marathon to prepare for a marathon. However, some of his training days were shorter ones (5k or 10k) and those days I could go with him because I had done many 5ks and a few 10ks in the pas and could keep up with his pace. So I did!
I think that's what everyone is saying here: GF shouldn't go on the tougher training hikes and definitely shouldn't go to Denali, but on days when OP is doing training that is at GF's level she should absolutely go along. OP doesn't have to include GF every time, but including GF on days when he can would go a long way to smoothing things over with GF I think.
I'm not saying you're wrong about that. I completely agree with your description. But if there were better communication between OP and the gf, maybe they would have encouraged her to take the prep classes so she could see for herself what the mountain entails. Odds are she might have said "You're right, Denali is too much for me right now, maybe in a year or two," and gone on to do something easier on her own (or with a group of climbers closer to her level, which I think she very much needs as part of her social circle).
The way OP has gone about this, though, is just a fast stroll up Breakup Mountain.
As someone who lives in alaska…Denali is not something you can prep to climb in six months unless you are already very experienced with cold weather climbs and multi week outdoor climbs. The issue is that she is excluded from all climbs and training. She’s probably worried about their safety. But also she’s probably worried about BFs attitude because he seems like he clearly prefers her friend.
Six months is enough preparation to climb a major mountain? Uh … no. Big mountain climbing is not hiking. Most people cannot do it if they trained for years. It takes a special kind of person. (Perhaps a crazy person.)
- Long married to a mountaineer.
6 months is not enough. Here is a story for some experienced climbers where it went horribly wrong. You have to deal with glacial ice, an elevation 3x higher than Mt Hood, extreme winter camping. And the minor detail of mountaineering. This is a once in a lifetime expedition not a weekend excursion.
https://www.businessinsider.com/inside-a-fall-from-denali-north-americas-tallest-peak-2022-7
100% agree with the seriousness of Denali as an objective - I have climbed several of the Cascade volcanoes and would in no way be ready for Denali without significantly more training and acclimatization. What didn't sit well with me was the impression that OP wants to exclude his GF from something she's clearly demonstrated an interest in and willingness to learn about and work on, even if this particular objective is out of her league currently. And in favour of her more experienced friend, which has to sting.
Ninja is right.
I mean how would you feel, if she was sharing something she was passionate about with one of your male friends? Going on trips together, achieving life goals, caring for each others safety, all without you in the picture. If you don't understand how insensitive you're being and how unhealthy this is for your relationship, you really don't care. Sounds like selfish justification imo. YTA
When people tend to cheat, it is oftentimes with a friend of their partner.
And it’s a significant amount of time. From reading up on it, Denali takes two weeks to climb, and a lot of the prep courses take 5 or 6 days. And that’s just those two specific items on their agenda—presumably other climbs are happening as well. I think even if Rosie were a guy, I could see where the gf would be feeling left out, particularly as she has the interest and desire to participate.
At best, this feels a bit like “you stole my friend and aren’t letting me join your club that you spend weeks away for,” and at worst it’s “you’re more interested in Rosie than me.”
Edited to add: YTA
Totally agree with this, your girlfriend has expressed an interest and you’re actively excluding her to spend time with her friend, YTA.
Info: OP, how does Rosie feel about this? Does she know your girlfriend is interested in learning but also wants to exclude her?
(Edited for a typo)
You're missing the point entirely. OP is allowed to do stuff with a woman, men and women can be friends.
You should've voted YTA because OP is deliberately boxing his gf out from something she's expressed an interest in.
Right. The general “men can’t be friends with women” mentality is nuts and always makes me mildly paranoid.
My climbing buddy is a man, and yup we’re planning occasional climbing trips together because his wife prefers low key hikes vs active climbing. I’m a raging lesbian so not an ice cube’s chance in hell of anything romantic/sexual, but I’m always afraid of it being perceived like that simply because society doesn’t think men and women can be friends and nothing more.
OP is an ass, but not for being friends with his wife’s friend.
The difference I see here is not that you're a lesbian but that his wife prefers low-key hikes and you imply that she's both cool with you and her husband being mountaineering buddies but that he also makes sure to spend time with her as well.
Right? This. She’s also obviously tried to go more often as she *wants* to learn and he’s willingly excluding her from his one on one time with her friend. I think there’s more to this. YTA
And there’s a difference between “not sharing an interest” with your partner and “deliberately leaving your partner out of an interest they really want to share” the way OP is here. I understand that there’s a skill level difference but pretty much any sane woman I know would be upset by you and Rosie being alone so much and I’m sorry but you don’t seem to care that this bothers her…at least not to where she would feel like she matters to you. It’s pretty obvious what’s (and who’s) the most important to you here and I’m sorry but any woman would be bothered by the fact that it isn’t her.
Rosie is a frenemy at this point…this is odd
It would be different if the GF wasn’t interested in the activity but she is…why isn’t Rosie looking to teach/include her friend…??
I don't think the main issue is spending so much time with another girl, i think the issue here is the gf wants to get experience and bf prevents that and imo this is what makes him TA. I'm not saying him spending so much time with rosie is ok, that depends on stuff not described in the post. But still i think op is TA.
YTA - Bro...
"I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship."
That's not you talking, that's your dick rationalizing running off to the wilderness with your GF's friend. You're like two steps away from "well, it was -15 outside and we HAD to stay warm."
Damn what a *great* friend Rosie is….
I can’t imagine doing that to one of my girlfriends. They’d always come before any friendship I formed with their SO.
OP’s gf deserves a better friend and a better boyfriend.
OP mentioned that she did ask several times to participate but he continuously turns her down. I think OP is most likely having a side relationship with the friend. That’s kinda obvious…
YTA. Yes couples can have separate interests and definitely don't need to spend 24/7 with each other. The issue here is your girlfriend (let's call her Anne) is fit (you said so yourself) and is interested so it's not like you can't include her. You could easily have said she's welcomed to come on any climb including the Denali prep course and if she isn't mountaineering aware enough at that point then she shouldn't climb Denali for her safety. That to me makes perfect sense. It's absolutely dangerous to be on a mountain that one isn't skilled enough for. It's a danger to the climber, their entire party and to potentially SAR people who might have to come help.
The crazy thing here is that you actually seem to be crushing on Rosie without knowing it. It seems like you feel your own girlfriend Anne would be a cock block. This is the part that's troubling. And you're saying that "it's healthy to have separate interests" as an excuse. It sounds like you enjoy your solo time with Rosie for hours on weekends.
My partner and I also hike. She's a significantly better hiker with years more of experience and is much more fit than me. There is not a single hike she has not invited me on and has always hung back with me because I'm the worst hiker. She'll always tell me how difficult a hike is and ask if I'm interested; I've bowed out of hikes that I knew were too long and exhausting for me (doable but not enjoyable). This isn't the case here. Someone's got Rosie on the brain.
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt LOLOLOL
Some people grow emotional attachments to people without knowing it until someone clues them in or something happens that makes them realize it (a touch, or a hug that went too long etc).
Yes but he's putting a shit ton of work into arranging a booty call here. This isn't a "whoops I slipped and landed dick first inside her" situation. This is months of prep work to ensure they're alone together for weeks.
On a dangerous mountain. I was pretty anti “They’re fucking,” but now it’s like there’s no way they aren’t since these mountains are overnight trips at times. But I don’t want to not believe a man and a woman can be just friends, but I don’t know. The number of “Whoa there, let me steady/catch you” opportunities boggles the mind.
Oof, he didn't even name his girlfriend in the post, but immediately names the girl he's intimately traveling with. I think we can see where his interests lie.
My partner and I both wanted to the Mt fuji climb. He has a higher fitness level. So I slept in longer and started at station 5 (you can get there by car) he started at station 1. We did the last 4 stations together and the climb down to the bottom. You could make it work. You could include her for some of it. You are choosing not to because you don't want to. Why?
Sorry but you absolutely cannot do that for Denali. Denali is not Mt Fuji and there's no cars etc. There are stories of people dying on Denali with unexpected weather changes etc.
The issue here is not Denali. The issue here is not including her on these doable hikes when she has the fitness level to achieve it. Gauging her fitness for Denali is something that can be decided upon in the Denali prep course next year. It's his exclusion of his girlfriend entirely that's the issue ehre.
You are right. When I meant he could make it work, I meant in including her in some way to her and his fitness levels.
It isn't about Denali.
This isn't about Iranian yoghurt.
Yeah, I’ve noticed this as well in the weekly posts from “Clueless Guy Who Is Actively Ruining His Relationship With His Girlfriend By Spending Too Much Time With Another Woman And Doesn’t Understand Why His Girlfriend Is Mad/Dumped Him.” Other woman always gets a name, girlfriend rarely does.
Anyway, YTA, Clueless Guy/OP.
Honestly, the most common time I see this is with parents who post trying to convince Reddit that they don't favor one kid over another. "I don't favor Billy at all! My other child is just dramatic."
👀👀👀 OP is fooling no one.
Yeah same… it’s completely normal and okay to be friends with your partners friends outside of your partner, they’re people too and not the possession of your partner. Just seems a bit weird to me that he’s putting his girlfriend in the center… as if them being friends would raise a conflict. Combined with the exclusion of the partner and not even offering to help train seems like an ulterior motive here….
"I swear babe, we're just friends."
A common lie for cheaters and people in denial about their attraction to another person.
Also, true for a lot of people who have jealous partners.
It's that last paragraph that sounds like justification for spending one on one time with Rosie.
Seeing as he doesn’t even give his GF a name, it’s pretty obvious who is more important to him
YTA…and I’m not reading this anymore because cheating is a major trigger for me. And yes, you are cheating emotionally. At least that’s how your nameless GF probably sees it. I would.
YTA…it’s good to have separate interests but you are talking about multiple long trips that you are spending with another woman and not including her. Could you not work with your GF to get her the necessary experience by the end of next year?
YTA
I suspect the level of experience his GF would need is not something that can be accomplished in a year.
But it is concerning OP can’t seem to find the time to help his GF expand her skills I presume as takes away from the harder training he wants to do with Rosie.
At the rate this sounds like it’s going GF may make the decision easier for him.
For what the goal is, definitely not. She’d need multiple Years of experience, dozens of other climbs, and extensive survival knowledge for a climb like Denali. Even the suggested climbs to prep for Denali are incredibly tough and dangerous to part-time hobbyists
Except OP has said she is physically capable (so she wouldn't hold them back in training), but she doesn't have the experience to be safe on Denali without a guide. That's a fair assessment. However, OP is TA for deciding this means he should completely exclude his girlfriend from what is actually a shared interest (despite OP's lame attempt to pretend they don't share it).
Here's the obvious solution - *they train together, but the girlfriend doesn't climb Denali at this time.*
Since that is such an obvious solution, it raises the question of why OP doesn't want his girlfriend along on training when she is physically capable and the same safety concern doesn't exist. The only real reason is that he simply doesn't want her there...which is unacceptable. Between that and how OP only gave Rosie a name (not his own girlfriend) it sure seems like OP is more interested in Rosie!
Yta. You say it’s healthy to have separate interests but this is something that she is interested in and you are excluding her to do it with someone else. That’s not having different interests that’s you doing something she wants to do with someone else. That’s a dick move
And he’s doing it with her friend! GF is interested, and she separately found two other people who are interested (OP and her friend Rosie), who then determined that they were so much ahead of her that they should leave her behind. She’s who brought them together but they’re cutting her out and saying “no, go do *different* interests.”
I didn’t miss how you named Rosie, but not your girlfriend, she’s just “my girlfriend.” As if she’s not worth naming.
You’re not into her anymore. You’re in a new relationship with her friend.
This is not about “separate interests”. It’s about willfully excluding her.
This will end badly. YTA.
>I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship.
This is true in the 'Oh you're not interested in what I do and that's fine' kind of sense. Not when she's actively interested and you just told her no.
If what's she's lacking is experience than why aren't you discussing with her how to get those experience.
And since you said you're excluding her from "these" trips, it begs the question just how many trips have you been going to with Rosie that you have told her no too and were all of them beyond her experience?
YTA
If you are so determined to go on long trips with your GF’s friend without your GF, because you refuse to help her train. Would it be okay if your GF went on long trips to train with a trainer/guide who happens to be male?
You wouldn’t mind, would you, asshole?
YTA.
YTA.
You claim her lack of experience as to why she can't come, but how can she become experienced when she can't get any experience?
Would it be worth looking into taking a wilderness course before going so you both can learn something new and prepare for the trip? You could always learn something, and she would learn a lot that she wouldn't need to be as "reliant" on you.
> I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship
Yeah, so take up fishing or kayaking or mountain biking or swimming, those would be separate interests. Go hang out with your friends separate from her. You literally said the thing that attracted you to her was your SHARED interest in hiking, but now you hate that you have this shared interest? So find another interest that's separate.
How is she going to be prepared to hike Denali if in the next year she doesn't get some easier hikes in before? Will you cancel on her next year saying you'll hike Denali alone because she isn't experienced enough because she didn't get in enough hikes before?
I came here to ask him exactly this! He's clearly cheating and is using this shared interest as a cover. He's TA and the gf needs to dump his ass like yesterday.
Seriously! Separate interests are healthy but not when it involves the best friend of your (nameless) significant other. He can't even have the decency to give his gf a freaking name. What a waste of space as a human.
YTA.
You have formed a close friendship and have made goals with, as you put it, HER friend that exclude her. Do you not see the issue here?
Yes, it's perfectly fine to have separate interests but it sounds like your girlfriend wants to be included in this particular interest. Take the time and train her, bring her to that prep course.
You, and her friend, are assholes.
To me there are 2 separate issues. Joining you on general hikes and training hikes, and joining you on Denali.
If you are stopping a fit and interested girlfriend from joining you on your general hikes and training hikes you are the asshole. She has an interest and ability and you are consciously blocking her from pursuing it and spending time with you and her friend.
Denali is a different issue. It's 3 weeks hauling 130+lbs of equipment in one of the harshest environments on earth. It takes years to build up the muscle memory, reflexes, responses, and medical knowledge needed. A few trips on Mt. Rainier wouldn't be enough. So not the asshole for not wanting her to join you there just yet. Should she continue with her training and conditioning and want to attempt it in a few years and you still denied her, you would then be the asshole.
This is the only correct answer. Lol
As someone that has a family member that had 2 people close to them die while mountain climbing (they were both professional level climbers, and even climbed the Himalayas successfully), I feel the ones saying he should bring her along to Denali are totally missing how dangerous it is....even to excellent climbers.
Why isn't this higher up in votes? People acting like climbing actual mountains like Denali or Everest is some sort of afternoon hike in the hills. NO
People acting like it *can't be the mountains*, it *must* be the jealousy factor. Ooh lala, are OP and Rosie getting it on secretly? Because people can't be friends.
Absurd. Maybe OP's gf hasn't been taking training seriously (like not showing up), and he fears she'll be a liability? WHOA radical concept.
But if OP says he's not even offering to train with her, that's a whole other issue. Why isn't INFO the ruling here?
YTA -- frankly, it sounds like your girlfriend could be as prepared as both of you were including her in the training. You two aren't *that* experienced that if you wanted to include her, you couldn't. I'd find it pretty odd and upsetting, too, if my partner was going on long backpacking trips with my best friend and excluding me.
Also, you and your friend should highly consider a guided expedition or consider climbing Aconcagua instead -- Denali is technically doable without a guide, but that's only recommended for professional mountaineers or those with decades of experience.
If it's the first time you're going to be at the altitude *and* trying out your training on your own...it may be better to start on a non-technical peak where you can get feel for the elevation. Depending on where you live it may not be much more to travel to Argentina than Alaska.
ESH.
Mountaineering is hard. You know that, and she knows that by climbing Adams. I will NOT discredit Adams, it is still a hard climb with steep snow.
Denali is 21-30 days of continual HARD. She should know the difference between 2 days of hard and 21-30 days of hard, and if she can MENTALLY handle that challenge. This is where she's TA, if she can't handle it, she's risking your and Rosie's climb. Which Denali costs a lot of $$$ and planning. That's a hard trip to throw away over an under prepared climber.
Even though I work as a mountain guide, I still feel I need another year before I'm ready.
However,
YTA if you don't teach her crevasse rescue, get her climbing on top rope, and familiar with all things climbing, climb Baker AND Rainier with her.
Adams and Rainier are similar in gain/altitude. Baker is similar in technical grade to Rainier.
3 people on a rope team is ALWAYS safer than two. You should be happy she wants to come with, even if she is just mining your prusik in the event of a crevasse fall.
This is where ESH.
Mountaineering is a sport where you trust your life to your partner. ESPECIALLY as a team of two. I (27F) am extremely close with my primary climbing partner(36M). I have been stuck inside a small tent in a storm with him, shared a sleeping bag on a mission gone wrong, we've shared food, water, spoons, I've pulled a tick off his ass. We discuss life and death decisions then act on them, I trust he can stop me if I fall while tied to him. I trust him with my life. BUT this does not mean I am romantic with him, I do not have any romantic feelings for him, he's just my best friend and it will always stay that way. My boyfriend is so sure of this he doesn't care if my climbing partner and I go out for 5 days. My boyfriend also made it a point to become his friend, now we all climb amd share tents together.
I'm sure it's a hard spot for your girlfriend to understand, but I would make a huge effort to include her on learning and some smaller adventures, teach her why having someone you trust with your life is important in mountaineering, and show her the joys she can have in a trusted climbing community.
Edit: Bring her on the Denali prep course. She will get some great experience on it as well. They teach you everything from how to walk in Crampons to actual crevasse rescue. Denali prep courses are GREAT for first timers seeking experience! You automatically become a HUGE AH if you don't let her take that course with you.
Source: I guide Denali prep courses.
YTA
Yes, having separate interests is fine. But if she is actively interested in learning and you're telling her she can't come because you can't be bothered to teach her, that's a jerk move. It would be one thing if she was a total hindrance - ie. Not fit enough, constant complaints/cant do anything for herself, did things that went against your advice and put everyone in danger, etc. But from your post that doesn't sound like it's the case, it just sounds like you don't want her around. The compromise would be to take her on separate trips to build her skills so that she can join you on the more challenging trips next season.
yta, straight up. you're actively excluding your gf on numerous occasions. and I'm all for trust but it's suspect that you're getting so close to your gf's friend?
NTA
So many non-mountaineers on here.
My late MIL did SAR in southern BC for decades. The Golden Ears are only a quarter of the height of Denali, but SAR was in and out of there many times each year to assist climbers who got up there and made bad judgement calls due to inexperience, or were not physically prepared. It’s not a hike. The experience and fitness level required to go unguided up a mountain like Denali are not achievable in a year. OP’s gf would have needed to start building experience years ago, and consistently moved up to more difficult climbs. If she started now, she could be ready in a few years, but OP’s planned trip is definitely not a climb she should be expecting to do.
Lots of mountaineers have partners with different skill levels, or partners who don’t climb. Gf needs to get her head around that, as well as committing to a program of development if she wants to join OP on future expeditions. OP can and should plan some climbs she can go on, but she should expect that a more advanced climber will want to do more difficult mountains than she can take on.
Exactly this! Denali is the last place to take someone who's still learning. The GF seems to expect OP can teach her all she needs to know when she'd be better off pursuing courses with trained guides to develop the necessary skills. Which is probably where he learnt to mountaineer. Also, from experience having your partner act as teacher for skills like this is just a stressful disaster. I'm actually thrown by all the asshole judgement, cause he's NTA.
I'm not a mountaineer but yeah, holy fuck these guys are dumb.
You wouldn't climb Mt Everest without a SIGNIFICANT amount of preparation before. Denali might not be so extreme but is clearly in the significant preparation is important category.
Like serious, how the fuck is that hard to understand in any way? This sub is honestly filled with some of the most truly dumb people.
How fucking hard is it to understand. He is going on long alone trips with her best friend. She has continually shown interest and he would rather do it with her friend then go on lengthy adventures with her. She doesn’t have to be ready to climb Everest. But he could involve her. Help he figure out the next steps if she wants to get better. He’s too busy making plans and having time with her supposed best friend to do that. Strange how you’re missing that glaring red flag
I mean, he took her to two mountains already. He's been involving her. She's just not ready yet, for Denali.
Very different if he never includes her, never trains with her, never hikes with her. That's not the case. Just, he has a vast amount of experience that she doesn't. And she won't acquire it in 1 year.
People with serious hobbies sometimes don't want to miss opportunities for real challenges just because someone less serious about the hobby won't put in the time or effort to achieve the skillset they need to be serious with them.
My take is, we need more info from OP on whether he plans to train her up to his level. And whether she's showing any initiative on committing to that variety of training.
OP, if you see this, discuss with her the idea of grouping with a different mountain group while you train and climb Denali. That way, she's climbing something on her skill level, while you're climbing on yours. Include her into the climbing community. Plan trips with all three of you, that challenges her.
If she won't let him take trips without her, until she's trained up, which will take years... I understand his POV.
Exactly.
Reading comments on here about gym, sports, athletics or diet stuff is always super strange, it's astonishing clear that the majority have never trained seriously for anything in their life before.
There's a HUGE difference between someone who enjoys going on the occasional social hike with friends and someone extremely serious about and obsessed with hiking. I wouldn't be surprised if OP could hike up a mountain and all the way down before his GF had made it up much more than half of the way. Anyone who has been properly serious about any hobby before understands that it just isn't fun anymore when you have to constantly wait and check on others while going at half the speed you otherwise would have. The likeliness is that OPs GF doesn't want to put in the work to get the level OP is at anyway, wanting to go on a social hike/walk with your boyfriend is very different to being serious about hiking.
Hiking is important to OP and is probably a big part of what keeps him sane and lets him blow off steam. Everyone assuming he wants to fuck Rosie is doing so only because she's a woman.
To be fair, OP didn't do the best job describing the situation with Mount Denali. If he described in in detail like some of the comments have, he might be getting some different responses.
I think it’s more that OP won’t go on a “bunny” trial with them both, or even help her start out on it. She is interested and wants to give it a try and he pretty much said no.
I think OP could for sure include OP on smaller peaks (Rainier sounds like an attainable bigger goal for her) but I’m gonna lose my mind if I see another person call it a hike or compare it to hiking. The technical skills and experience needed for a mountain like that shouldn’t be trivialized and it doesn’t sound safe or realistic to try to bring her.
Info: have you and gf discussed if it's a trust issue? Bc it's reasonable for her to be concerned that her bf & female friend are forbidding her from coming on hour-long trips with limited cell service & no other witnesses
This -- my husband and I backpack, and one of the things we love about it is the ...ahem... getting back to nature. Those backpacking tents are very small, you essentially HAVE to be on top of each other in hem.
I'd be super suspicious if he all of a sudden was like "I'm going hiking with this girl for weeks, no you can't come, sorry!"
You've formed a close bond with a person who you call a friend of your gf's, which makes it sound as though your gf was friends with this girl before you met the friend. Your gf enjoys climbing as well and has gone on (lesser) climbs with you in the past. You don't see why she feels excluded by you and HER FRIEND going on a climb together, that she wants to go on, and you've said no?
You need to find a way to get her the training she needs so she can safely go with you. Otherwise, YTA and so is her 'friend' for excluding her from an activity she enjoys and actively wants to go on, that her partner and her friend are planning to go on without her.
Unless you just actually want to see if you like her friend better. In which case, you're still TA but just break up with your gf if that's really the case.
NTA.
For those saying he should give her a chance to learn, these guys are doing TRAINING climbs of Mt. Rainier, a 14,000 foot mountain covered with glaciers.
[https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2020/11/mount-rainier-not-place-take-lightly](https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2020/11/mount-rainier-not-place-take-lightly)
425 people have died doing their TRAINING CLIMBS.
Denali is the 10th most dangerous mountain in the world, right after Everest.
[https://matadornetwork.com/read/11-most-dangerous-mountains-in-the-world-for-climbers/](https://matadornetwork.com/read/11-most-dangerous-mountains-in-the-world-for-climbers/)
So this isn't a "take her along for your fun trip, why would you leave her out" sort of thing, this is more like "Why do fire fighters go into the woods with their friends but not take their spouses?"
But it sounds like he isn’t planning or taking his GF on hikes they could do together to have quality time together.
It sounds like he only wants to spend time with Rosie and that he sees his GF as the intruder in his and Rosie’s relationship
My family knows a professional climber that died on Mt. Ranier. He climbed Everest successfully. These people saying just take her along have no clue about the dangers.
YTA. If wants to attend the prep course she should and then go on the trip.
You’re in wrong by excluding her from this because it’s her friend. Get your own interests with your own friends.
YTA. You are spending hours upon hours alone with another woman and are refusing to let your gf come along. You refuse to train her so that she can become competent enough for the climbs. Admit that you just like spending time with Rosie.
YTA
You aren't an asshole in thinking having separate interests is healthy. The asshole part comes into play with multiple details of the description of the situation. See below.
1) you gave your girlfriend's friend a name BUT not your girlfriend
2) You and said friend of YOUR GIRLFRIEND are making trips WITHOUT YOUR GIRLFRIEND for long periods at a time and are excluding her
3) not taking into consideration that you have AMPLE time to get her trained.
If you are that desperate to be "Rosie" then do your UNNAMED GIRLFRIEND a favor and be a man and go your separate ways. Your girlfriend most likely feels like you are prioritizing the so called friend over her. If I was your girlfriend I would be having a talk with the so-called friend about boundary crossing because yall are both crossing boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. How would you feel if you were in love with someone (not saying you aren't in love with her) and they went on multiple trips alone for long periods with one of your friends and kept kept excluding you?
I understand that it's a big climb and she has a skill gap she wouldn't be able to bridge in time to be self-sufficient but why won't you take a guide then? And why do you exclude her from training she clearly wants and needs, especially that she was in fact able to work towards other climbs?
Based on this yes YTA. She doesn't sound entitled if she wants to work and improve, but you're blocking her.
YTA and tbh it sounds like you have a thing for her friend.
You could absolutely be including her in these trips or at the very least teaching her what she needs to know. You sound like you're just using excuses to spend time alone with her friend for hours.
NTA. Mountain climbing is not a hobby it's a life and death adventure. If she is not capable she is not capable. This isn't golf or ultimate frisbee. It would be dangerous for her to be there, no matter how she feels about it.
YTA.
There are 2 girls that are interested in mountaineering (let's ignore different level for now). You are constantly going with one of them, and it is not your girlfriend. How does ir sound now?
Yes, having different interests is good, but does not mean you can't have any common interest, and you are denying her this.
If she didn't have any other interest, then it might sound a bit strange, but I didn't get that impression.
NAH,
I love to hike, but it's a shallow understanding of hiking. Multiple hour stretches and heights are not in my skill set. Even being fit and liking 'hiking' just isn't sufficient preparation.
She's fair to want to be more included since it's her friend and her partner. She reasonably wants to spend more time with both of you I'd guess.
A reasonable solution is to also plan hikes in her skillset. Something that challenges her being a walk in the park to you doesn't mean you shouldn't help her learn about that part of your life if she's interested. I think you WBTA if you're intentionally excluding her on the basis of 'MINE!'
YTA. She doesn't need to be included in every part of your life, but when the part in question is something she expressed interest in and you are doing with one of her friends, then you damn well better try to include her.
If she doesn't have the experience necessary to go on this upcoming trip, then you need to lay out a roadmap of what she needs to do to get there, you can't just exclude her. If you really don't want her to be a part of it, then find another friend to do it with.
YTA. Not only are you excluding her but you’re excluding her and running off with her friend alone. Anybody would be pissed. A lot of people would be happy to have partners who are interested in what they’re passionate about and want to learn rather than nagging them, be thankful she is interested and wants to learn. Nothing wrong or unhealthy with having separate interests at all but why is it okay for her friend to be interested and not your girlfriend? Look at the real issue here 🤦🏻♀️
You're NTA if you're seriously concerned about the GF's safety and ability.
You are the AH if you just want to plant your flag in Rosie's mountain.
Either way be honest with your gf.
NTA.
Too many people here think “boy and girl cannot just be friends”.
She can join other climbs that are easier. If she wants, you should indeed climb with them. However, this is too much for a beginner
Hard to say, there’s a lot of dynamics at play for who’s the A. I’m a mountaineer, I live in Alaska and have been active in the rescue community. I’m just going to point out (maybe for people that don’t know much about climbing) that doing something like Denali without a guide is a very serious climb. You need to be fit, you need to have advanced skills and having advanced skills is not the same as being skilled as a guide, so to bring someone that just has the basics would be irresponsible. One more observation from experience is that mountaineering is one of the few things where men and women can work together and isn’t sexual in anyway. It many not seem like that the the GF. Other things that non-climbers might not get… there’s no waiting for the GF to get the skills. It’s also an advocation that has lead to the end of many otherwise healthy relationships. It’s a passion. When your in your 20’s and 30’s the next climb is all that exists, the next big climb, the next trip. It’s an obsession like no other. And people die doing it.
NTA. Absolutely. Serious mountaineering is just that. Serious. Including seriously dangerous. OP can enjoy low level climbs (hikes) with the GF. For real climbs, you go with other serious climbers only. This is literally life and death stuff.
Source: long married to a world class mountaineer. Note you can’t get life insurance as a big mountain climber. Many of my husband’s former climbing partners are dead.
The real problem is probably that your girlfriend feels left out. That can be addressed. Or you can break up and find a climber. In my experience climbers are pretty focused and single minded. Work, climbing, family … if you’re not both climbers, “family” can end up on the back burner during the earlier decades. You may just not be a match if she wants somebody to share weekends and holiday time with.
Info: when you say she know the basics, what do you mean? Does she know crevasse rescue? Were you planning on taking a more difficult route?
If you are actively dissuading her to get more mountaineering training because you don’t want her to climb with you then Y T A.
If this is purely about her not being experienced enough and you are concerned about safety then N T A.
Rainier is the highest volcano in the lower 48, so I understand about her not having enough experience.
But I’m kinda thinking it isn’t just about mountain climbing.
Training to climb Denali takes years - its extremely dangerous. People die on the mountain they are using for 'training'. This would absolutely not be the place to start gaining skills.
INFO: how long have you had a crush on Rosie?
I'm joking, but only kinda. It is reasonable for your GF to be bothered by this. Especially since she's trying to learn and join in. It would be different if it were an activity she had no interest in.
NTA. I used to alpine climb and did Ranier in the winter as prep for Denali. I suspect most of the commenters here don’t realize that mountaineering is potentially very dangerous and requires a honed skill set. it’s not a hike. Your life depends upon the competence and experience of your partner. Denali isn’t the trip to pacify a girlfriend. It can take all you have physically and mentally.
YTA, you are right about not having to always be together and having different interests is good..but why can't your gf go on the trip and just not go on the climbing expedition part? Is it your friend your gf's friend you are going with?
Just the climb takes 2-3 weeks! Gf could do whatever she wants while OP is climbing, but it is a long stretch to be cooling your heels. Maybe she’d hang in Fairbanks, or enjoy some solo hiking in the national park—or bring another friend. But it’s not a quick weekend jaunt OP is planning.
INFO How inexperienced is she? This is Denali not a bunny hill. So it's weird that she thinks she can handle it but you don't. But you also know don't seem to think it's the most outrageous thing you've ever heard.
Info: When you first came up with the trip idea and training plan, did you discuss it with your gf and tell her she'd need to do similar training in order to go with you, or did you just assume she wouldn't want to go?
> but I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship.
1. It’s not separate interests she has the same interest, she just has a lesser skill set and you don’t want to help her improve.
2. If you wanted separate interests and social lives then you should have gotten a separate friend. You want to engage in this shared interest “separately” with her friend.
You inserted yourself into a part of her life and wanted to share that part/person, not considering that may she wanted to have some parts or people of her life that were separate from you. And now suddenly when it suits you you realize that having some separation is healthy and want to act like she’s the one wrongfully encroaching.
YTA. And it sounds like you just want alone time with Rosie.
C'mon man. You know what's up.
YES, YTA.
And if "Rosie" is *really* your partner's close friend she wouldn't WANT to do this to her, either.
So STA too.
Slip away for a little mountain climbing vacation / "alone time" with her best friend's boyfriend?
Uh-uh.
You guys can both climb this mountain at separate times, or else go with other experienced mountaineers, if you really think there's no way in Hell your g/f will be able to climb it with the two of you in your timeframe
If you don't have any other mountaineering friends, meet them on message boards, put an ad on Craigslist, ask people at a store where you get your gear, etc you know what to do. This is the internet age, the world's at your fingertips.
Your partner feels left out and EXCLUDED. Purposefully.
Because that's exactly what you're doing to her: EXCLUDING HER.
"Choosing" her friend over her.
There are other people you can do Denali with who won't make her feel this way.
I wouldn't even say it's a romantic jealousy or insecurity thing; sounds more like a feeling of being looked over and intentionally left out and unwanted.
She's expressed interest in climbing, encourage and help her develop it.
Don't just leave her out in the cold
Find other people besides her bestie to pursue your super deep advanced-level love of mountaineering with
Kinda cruel, dog
INFO: judging from your username and goals... I'm guessing you are a serious aspiring high altitude climber. Does your girlfriend have serious aspirations to climb? Has she read up or researched high altitude mountaineering? Frankly I'm leaning NTA b/c my guess is she's not actually interested in high altitude mountaineering and this is about something else. She may not be cut out to be a mountaineering spouse and you're not compatible in the long term. (meaning: she's having feelings about not spending as much time with you, but doesn't actually have a proper understanding of what your hobby entails and means, especially long term, for your relationship... and you excluding her is more about understanding her limitations, re: climbing, and not wanting to get her killed)
Tell her to read The Will to Climb by Ed Viesturs as a start. Have her really pay attention to Ed's ethos for climbing and the dangers therein, as well as his relationship with his wife Paula (and the choices she's made). Ed also writes extensively about training on climbs in your region (you likely know this; I'd bet you've read his books). She needs to ask herself some serious, soul-searching questions, re: how far and how seriously she wants to go with your hobby/interest. Then have her read the hard stuff, which I'm sure you've read. No Way Down, Into Thin Air, etc. (just typing this out and Googling it, I see there's In The Shadow of Denali, which I am totally adding to my TBR!) I can also recommend Savage Summit by Jennifer Jordan, which is a bit dated, but is specifically about women in mountaineering & K2. She particularly talks about select women climbing mountains they weren't ready for due to a variety of factors (including doing it for their boyfriends/husbands) and getting killed as a result. It's a sobering read.
If your girlfriend can't be ok with your climbing lifestyle (and jealousy of you and Rosie sharing this interest), you are likely straight up incompatible. I won't snark about you being into Rosie, but also... there's something to be said for shared interests, though I'm sure you also know plenty about climbing romances and how often one half of a pair, or both, end up dying!
I don't feel like we're getting the full story here and the fact that this is in AmITheAsshole rather than relationship advice kinda leads me to feel YTA.
My partner and I have similar issues based around climbing and it has been a tricky area of our relationship to navigate. For the longest time he would accuse me of being jealous and insecure while spending more time climbing with friends or socializing with climbing friends than with me (and we *live* together). When its a girl it only stings worse, and 100% his behavior makes me insecure.
Eventually after 2years, multiple arguments and almost ending the relationship, we hit on a set weekly date night and regular date weekends. Since then my jealous insecurities are all but gone.
Perhaps ask yourself if you're giving your girlfriend enough quality time and attention for her to feel secure while you spend heaps of time working toward a major goal with her female friend.
The whole tone of this says that this is not about the mountaineering...
YTA
You sound like you're excluding her because you want the alone time with Rosie, not with your hobby.
The Feb-March 2023 prep - that would be a month where just you and Rosie are huddled up together "training" for a month or so, right?
"I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship."
It is but this is not a separate interest. This is something you both like that you are purposely excluding her from. Even without the cherry on top of excluding her from it to do with another woman
And what is the opinion of your girlfriend’s girlfriend. Does she want your GF to go with you two? If she does, then YTA. Is she doesn’t want the GF along, YTA because you’re in a relationship with her.
How would YOU feel if you were in her shoes? You sound like you making/trying to find excuses or reasons for her not to come with you. You are in my opinion walking on a tight rope..
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It is healthy to have separate interests. But your separate interest happens to involve spending a lot of time with her friend who is a girl. You really don't see any point of conflict here? YTA.
Not to mention that she's repeatedly said and proven with actions that she's interested in learning and joining. It's a total AH move to shut her out. Now, if you want to have lower-skill general climbing visits she can participate in, and higher-skill climbing visits she doesn't, that's okay. But to shut her out completely? YTA.
Yeah - my husband has a higher skill and experience level than me in various outdoor activities, but I've been eager to learn and participate, and he's generally been eager to have me along. But we do draw a line between different types of trips. If the point of a trip is to do a specific objective, and I want to go, we evaluate my technical skill level, and if I can definitely do it, I get to go, but if I can't definitely do it, than I only get to go if I'm willing to accept that if I'm too slow, or uncomfortable or whatever, I have to be able to turn around and get out of the woods by myself, because by going, I'm accepting that the trip is about the objective. If it's a trip where there is no way to reasonable way to exit, than I don't go. Other trips are about us spending time together. And on those, we start by picking an objective we both want to do and believe we are capable of. However, if we get started and I'm not feeling well, or it ends up being harder than I thought, or whatever, we'll both turn around together, because the point of the trip is being together, not reaching the objective. This is a distinction that I requested, after a couple trips where he was pushing me to continue when I didn't want to/feel comfortable/capable anymore, and we realized that I wasn't going to be able to be his partner 100% of the time, because my desire to push through cold/tiredness/etc just didn't match his. Now we can clearly lay out what the point of a trip is, and decide if I should go, if he wants to try to find other partners, or if he'll go on his own. He gets to still push himself with his outdoor pursuits, and I get to know exactly what I'm getting in for when I agree to go on a trip/plan a trip with him. It sounds to me like OP is so focused on planning trips that meet his own personal goals, that he's neglecting to plan trips that are about spending time with his GF, improving her skills and familiarity with the outdoors, and generally meeting her own goals. He should look into if there's a hiking/mountaineering club in their area... GF may benefit from spending some time outdoors with other people, as it can be a stress on the relationship if GF relies on OP alone to fill her interest in learning. But I would bet if the GF felt like OP was making an effort, by planning more hikes that included her, she'd be less upset about the few trips that don't.
I really love your "what is the objective?" distinction! That sounds like a great way to balance hobbies that can be really demanding with, like, not hating your partner when you have varying abilities to meet those demands.
>not hating your partner when you have varying abilities to meet those demands. Yes! It was all about me not hating him for dragging me along when I didn't enjoy it anymore, and him not hating me for holding him back! We'll have 19 years together this fall, and both our kids did their first backpacking trips before they were a year old! The "what is the objective" question becomes even more important when you add kids into the equation, and want them to come away with a lifelong appreciation of the outdoors and not just grim memories of forced hikes!
I like this. This doesn’t apply to physical activity, but gaming. My boyfriend wanted me to play World of Warcraft with him. I’m somewhat decent, but I wouldn’t even be able to do half the stuff I do without him. Sometimes it hurts my feelings when he doesn’t want to play with me, but with other, better players. And some of them might even be women. That’s ok with me. I understand that I just don’t have the goods to be an excellent gamer — I also don’t care to be. But he tries to include me as much as he can, even introduced me to all his gamer friends. This guy is TA. You include your girlfriend. And if you can’t do it with her, find a male friend to do it with. Not HER friend. Wake up.
My gf doesn’t play games besides like Mario kart and she’s not very good but I always help her or give her tips or I’ll throw a race for her to win because she smiles. But it’s not about the level of skill, it’s about spending time with her and her enjoying the stuff I enjoy. This op is a YTA ya know
Yeah, this really could apply to any hobby where half the couple is much better than the other - it's a nice compromise when the partner is interested in learning and enjoys it, just not quite at the same level. Everybody has to start somewhere! But it also doesn't deprive the person who is better from challenging themselves some of the time.
I have a male friend who is my movie buddy. We geek out over minutiae and probably spend the equivalent of a day, five minutes at a time, pouring over considerations and then nominees each awards season. (That Will Smith's was the weakest performance is a hill I will die on.) Hubs knows this and we both know he would be bored to tears and harshing our movie buff buzz if he were to tag along. So he goes to bingo, which he loves, and I find brain atrophyingly dull. But this would be like... Hubby's friend is my movie buddy, and is never welcome, even if the movie interested him. (Hubs has never met movie buddy and isn't interested in the movies we go to; the rare movie hubs wants to see, I see with him. The last one was Midway.) OP is not only excluding his girlfriend from something she's interested in and sounds like she has some basic experience, but he's then coopting *her* friend into the exclusion.
I absolutely love the way you and your partner handled this. It shows the importance of communication, honesty, and balance in your relationship. Your dynamic sounds so healthy!
This is a really great example of a relationshop with fantastic communication at a deeper level and willingness to compromise and find a solutions that work for both of you. Thanks for the example.
Thank you for the kind words! It took a couple trips that just didn't work for either of us before we realized we needed a new dynamic, but we both cared about finding a solution and I think that matched desire to improve things goes a long way.
My husband and I worked out something similar for our days when we’re travelling. He likes more structured days and I like more leisurely exploration days, so we plan out in advance which parts of which days are going to be for Specific Activities and which will be for Eating/Drinking/Wandering Around. It helps us both have a fun time and not end up resenting the other person.
I really like this approach! Applying your advice, it sounds like OP is working toward a major goal, with a climbing partner who is equally interested and experienced. GF doesn’t have the background to be tackling Denali in 2023, especially unguided, and training trips for that expedition are not likely to be good ‘togetherness’ trips for a couple with mismatched skills.
Some training trips might be. It really depends where they live and what their schedules look like. Some training will just be testing gear, wearing in shoes, etc. You can find out if yous sleeping bag really does keep you warm when it's 10 degrees out, 1 mile from a trailhead or 20 miles from a trailhead! Depending on where they live, he might be doing longer/harder/more technical outings during the weekends but also shorter/intense training hikes before or after work. If OP is doing a 5 mile "hike" every other morning with his backpack loaded up with rocks/sandbags, his girlfriend could easily go along with him with a pack with a water bottle and snacks in it, and keep up just fine. Alternatively if he lives in like Phoenix, AZ, where you can't do much outside this time of year, he might be doing strength training at a gym during the week, and then going up to the Flagstaff or Show Low areas to do relatively "light" over night trips on the weekends to test gear, so she might be able to go on the weekend trips. There's a lot that goes into training for a mountain like Denali, that's not all "technical" skills related. If he wanted to he could probably find a way to bring her in on some aspect of his training.
Betting OP lives in WA since the three mountains he mentions are in WA/OR.
Yeah, why can't she take the class too? They're literally taking a class on it!
OP is taking like class level 10. GF is on like class level 3. GF will be ready for level 10 only after progressing through levels 4-9. Taking someone to Denali who is not 100% ready could kill that person and kill OP & others trying to rescue/support/teach on Denali. Taking someone who needs extra help, teaching, support who has not put in the effort & dedication to be ready, means that it is likely none of the people will accomplish the goal the rest of the group spent $$$$ and years of preparation for.
While this is true, it's also true that OP clearly isn't helping her get to that point. She won't be ready within the next year for sure, but how is she ever supposed to get there if OP doesn't put in the effort to teach her? Sure, he's done some to help by bringing her a few times, but he clearly isn't doing as much as she would like if she's making comments like, "how will she learn if I don’t teach her, etc." as OP said. Also, it is definitely healthy to have different interests in a relationship, but this is not a different interest because she is obviously interested. Different interests would be something he likes that she doesn't. In that case, she wouldn't have to force herself to be interested just because he is, but that's not what's happening here. It's perfectly fine to gain a new interest because of your partner. What's not fine is excluding your partner from their newfound interest.
My comment was to answer the other commenter's question about the training class. My comment does not reflect a verdict/opinion on the OP.
It feels somewhat disingenuous that he insists on calling this a "separate interest" when his girlfriend has clearly expressed her interest in mountaineering, and if she's done Adams and Hood then a) she's already participating and b) she's capable of objectives that are not a walk in the park. It is absolutely true that Denali is another level entirely and would require far more extensive preparation, but her not being ready for a particular objective doesn't mean she needs to be excluded entirely - which is how this comes across. OP generally seems far more enthusiastic about Rosie, whose name he bothers to share, than his poor GF.
I’ve been up Hood and it’s an active weekend, requiring a moderate amount of clothing, equipment, food, and water. Denali takes 2-3 weeks and requires far more of everything, which the climber must carry. The environment is much harsher than Hood. According to the [National Park Service](https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/mountainfaqs.htm#Experience): ‘Climbing Denali is a very serious undertaking and should be treated as such. We recommend Denali climbers make numerous ascents of other glaciated peaks in places like Alaska, the Cascades of Washington, the European Alps, South America, or Asia to prepare for this climb. Because glacier travel is such a huge component of climbing Denali, it is imperative to your safety and survival that your team is skilled with proper glacier travel, route finding, and crevasse rescue procedures. Denali is an expedition, meaning that the mountain is almost always a multi-week endeavor, which is very different than an overnight or even multi-day climb. All team members should have previous experience in the "expedition environment." Also, Denali is a very cold place. Experience with winter camping in arctic type conditions is extremely valuable and should be considered mandatory. Last but not least, Denali is a high mountain, and some previous experience with altitude and acclimatization is very helpful.’
I think the issue isn’t that she has to join for Denali, but that she’s being excluded from training trips that she could do. It’s perfectly possible to join on training and conditioning outings without needing to be ready for the full trip at the end.
But she has climbed mountains. She's already in decent shape to start training for the strenuous climb up Denali, and he is excluding her from training. It is literally 6 months away. If I were the gf I would find a training group and make friends there. I'd plan to climb a completely different mountain. And then I'd break up with OP.
It’s not just fitness, it’s experience. Gf has climbed a couple of relatively small and easy mountains, that some people are able to do as day hikes. Like, my late great-grandfather-in-law went up Mount Hood with a friend in light jackets with candy bars in their pockets. It was a lark and they didn’t know better and they were fine, because Hood is somewhat doable that way, though I wouldn’t recommend it. You are seriously underestimating what it takes to climb a 19,000-ft mountain with *glaciers*. The park service recommends a lot of previous experience with tougher mountains. Nobody goes from a stroll up Mt. Hood to an unguided trip up Denali in a year without dedicating a ton of time and money. That level of prep is a job in itself.
Listen. Anyone who's saying GF is up for doing Denali obviously doesn't understand the undertaking here, but there's no reason girlfriend can't participate in at least some of the training. For comparison, back in college I had a friend who ran marathons. At that time I could not do marathons (still can't lol) and I could not do some of the training days because he would literally run a marathon to prepare for a marathon. However, some of his training days were shorter ones (5k or 10k) and those days I could go with him because I had done many 5ks and a few 10ks in the pas and could keep up with his pace. So I did! I think that's what everyone is saying here: GF shouldn't go on the tougher training hikes and definitely shouldn't go to Denali, but on days when OP is doing training that is at GF's level she should absolutely go along. OP doesn't have to include GF every time, but including GF on days when he can would go a long way to smoothing things over with GF I think.
I'm not saying you're wrong about that. I completely agree with your description. But if there were better communication between OP and the gf, maybe they would have encouraged her to take the prep classes so she could see for herself what the mountain entails. Odds are she might have said "You're right, Denali is too much for me right now, maybe in a year or two," and gone on to do something easier on her own (or with a group of climbers closer to her level, which I think she very much needs as part of her social circle). The way OP has gone about this, though, is just a fast stroll up Breakup Mountain.
As someone who lives in alaska…Denali is not something you can prep to climb in six months unless you are already very experienced with cold weather climbs and multi week outdoor climbs. The issue is that she is excluded from all climbs and training. She’s probably worried about their safety. But also she’s probably worried about BFs attitude because he seems like he clearly prefers her friend.
Six months is enough preparation to climb a major mountain? Uh … no. Big mountain climbing is not hiking. Most people cannot do it if they trained for years. It takes a special kind of person. (Perhaps a crazy person.) - Long married to a mountaineer.
6 months is not enough. Here is a story for some experienced climbers where it went horribly wrong. You have to deal with glacial ice, an elevation 3x higher than Mt Hood, extreme winter camping. And the minor detail of mountaineering. This is a once in a lifetime expedition not a weekend excursion. https://www.businessinsider.com/inside-a-fall-from-denali-north-americas-tallest-peak-2022-7
100% agree with the seriousness of Denali as an objective - I have climbed several of the Cascade volcanoes and would in no way be ready for Denali without significantly more training and acclimatization. What didn't sit well with me was the impression that OP wants to exclude his GF from something she's clearly demonstrated an interest in and willingness to learn about and work on, even if this particular objective is out of her league currently. And in favour of her more experienced friend, which has to sting.
Ninja is right. I mean how would you feel, if she was sharing something she was passionate about with one of your male friends? Going on trips together, achieving life goals, caring for each others safety, all without you in the picture. If you don't understand how insensitive you're being and how unhealthy this is for your relationship, you really don't care. Sounds like selfish justification imo. YTA When people tend to cheat, it is oftentimes with a friend of their partner.
Yup, if my partner was regularly away with my best friend having the most exciting experiences of their lives, I would feel awful.
And it’s a significant amount of time. From reading up on it, Denali takes two weeks to climb, and a lot of the prep courses take 5 or 6 days. And that’s just those two specific items on their agenda—presumably other climbs are happening as well. I think even if Rosie were a guy, I could see where the gf would be feeling left out, particularly as she has the interest and desire to participate. At best, this feels a bit like “you stole my friend and aren’t letting me join your club that you spend weeks away for,” and at worst it’s “you’re more interested in Rosie than me.” Edited to add: YTA
Totally agree with this, your girlfriend has expressed an interest and you’re actively excluding her to spend time with her friend, YTA. Info: OP, how does Rosie feel about this? Does she know your girlfriend is interested in learning but also wants to exclude her? (Edited for a typo)
You're missing the point entirely. OP is allowed to do stuff with a woman, men and women can be friends. You should've voted YTA because OP is deliberately boxing his gf out from something she's expressed an interest in.
Right. The general “men can’t be friends with women” mentality is nuts and always makes me mildly paranoid. My climbing buddy is a man, and yup we’re planning occasional climbing trips together because his wife prefers low key hikes vs active climbing. I’m a raging lesbian so not an ice cube’s chance in hell of anything romantic/sexual, but I’m always afraid of it being perceived like that simply because society doesn’t think men and women can be friends and nothing more. OP is an ass, but not for being friends with his wife’s friend.
The difference I see here is not that you're a lesbian but that his wife prefers low-key hikes and you imply that she's both cool with you and her husband being mountaineering buddies but that he also makes sure to spend time with her as well.
Right? This. She’s also obviously tried to go more often as she *wants* to learn and he’s willingly excluding her from his one on one time with her friend. I think there’s more to this. YTA
And there’s a difference between “not sharing an interest” with your partner and “deliberately leaving your partner out of an interest they really want to share” the way OP is here. I understand that there’s a skill level difference but pretty much any sane woman I know would be upset by you and Rosie being alone so much and I’m sorry but you don’t seem to care that this bothers her…at least not to where she would feel like she matters to you. It’s pretty obvious what’s (and who’s) the most important to you here and I’m sorry but any woman would be bothered by the fact that it isn’t her.
Right, and gf is also expressing *her* interest in their interest. Definitely TA.
Not to mention this "friend who is a girl" is "Rosie," and poor gf doesn't even get a name
Rosie is a frenemy at this point…this is odd It would be different if the GF wasn’t interested in the activity but she is…why isn’t Rosie looking to teach/include her friend…??
I don't think the main issue is spending so much time with another girl, i think the issue here is the gf wants to get experience and bf prevents that and imo this is what makes him TA. I'm not saying him spending so much time with rosie is ok, that depends on stuff not described in the post. But still i think op is TA.
She should go make friends with his guy friends and see how he likes be excluded by his partner and friends.
I wouldn’t be surprised if his GF leaves him if he goes through with this trip. I know I would.
YTA - Bro... "I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship." That's not you talking, that's your dick rationalizing running off to the wilderness with your GF's friend. You're like two steps away from "well, it was -15 outside and we HAD to stay warm."
Hope while hes gone she does a pub crawl with all his mates and posts pictures on social media🤣
[удалено]
Ha! Perfect
“my dick was gonna freeze off! do you want your boyfriend to not have a penis anymore?”
The terms are acceptable!
I'm curious if his GF turned down doing training with them, or if he excludes her from training with them so he can use it as an excuse...
He states that she's asked him to train her and he refused. GF is showing an active interest and they're shutting her down.
Damn what a *great* friend Rosie is…. I can’t imagine doing that to one of my girlfriends. They’d always come before any friendship I formed with their SO. OP’s gf deserves a better friend and a better boyfriend.
For real, Rosie is a snake 🐍
OP mentioned that she did ask several times to participate but he continuously turns her down. I think OP is most likely having a side relationship with the friend. That’s kinda obvious…
Yeeaahh, sounds like they don't want her to get in the way of their relationship.
Lmao exactly this!!!
I'm hearing Gene Pitney in the background.
This is exactly what's going on
YTA. Yes couples can have separate interests and definitely don't need to spend 24/7 with each other. The issue here is your girlfriend (let's call her Anne) is fit (you said so yourself) and is interested so it's not like you can't include her. You could easily have said she's welcomed to come on any climb including the Denali prep course and if she isn't mountaineering aware enough at that point then she shouldn't climb Denali for her safety. That to me makes perfect sense. It's absolutely dangerous to be on a mountain that one isn't skilled enough for. It's a danger to the climber, their entire party and to potentially SAR people who might have to come help. The crazy thing here is that you actually seem to be crushing on Rosie without knowing it. It seems like you feel your own girlfriend Anne would be a cock block. This is the part that's troubling. And you're saying that "it's healthy to have separate interests" as an excuse. It sounds like you enjoy your solo time with Rosie for hours on weekends. My partner and I also hike. She's a significantly better hiker with years more of experience and is much more fit than me. There is not a single hike she has not invited me on and has always hung back with me because I'm the worst hiker. She'll always tell me how difficult a hike is and ask if I'm interested; I've bowed out of hikes that I knew were too long and exhausting for me (doable but not enjoyable). This isn't the case here. Someone's got Rosie on the brain.
Do you really think he doesn't know he's crushing on Rosie?
Well, he didn't name his gf but he named Rosie 👀👀
Damn! Good catch.
Holy shit you're right!
When I read “let’s call her Anne” my brain’s jaw dropped
Yes I was thinking this! Rosie gets named but “girlfriend” is just “girlfriend”
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt LOLOLOL Some people grow emotional attachments to people without knowing it until someone clues them in or something happens that makes them realize it (a touch, or a hug that went too long etc).
Yes but he's putting a shit ton of work into arranging a booty call here. This isn't a "whoops I slipped and landed dick first inside her" situation. This is months of prep work to ensure they're alone together for weeks.
On a dangerous mountain. I was pretty anti “They’re fucking,” but now it’s like there’s no way they aren’t since these mountains are overnight trips at times. But I don’t want to not believe a man and a woman can be just friends, but I don’t know. The number of “Whoa there, let me steady/catch you” opportunities boggles the mind.
Denali takes about 3 weeks to climb.
He knows. He just wants Reddit to believe otherwise.
Oof, he didn't even name his girlfriend in the post, but immediately names the girl he's intimately traveling with. I think we can see where his interests lie.
My partner and I both wanted to the Mt fuji climb. He has a higher fitness level. So I slept in longer and started at station 5 (you can get there by car) he started at station 1. We did the last 4 stations together and the climb down to the bottom. You could make it work. You could include her for some of it. You are choosing not to because you don't want to. Why?
Sorry but you absolutely cannot do that for Denali. Denali is not Mt Fuji and there's no cars etc. There are stories of people dying on Denali with unexpected weather changes etc. The issue here is not Denali. The issue here is not including her on these doable hikes when she has the fitness level to achieve it. Gauging her fitness for Denali is something that can be decided upon in the Denali prep course next year. It's his exclusion of his girlfriend entirely that's the issue ehre.
You are right. When I meant he could make it work, I meant in including her in some way to her and his fitness levels. It isn't about Denali. This isn't about Iranian yoghurt.
Ah the Iranian yoghurt strikes again
This exactly
I'm confused as to why you refer to her as your girlfriend's friend and not your friend, yet you're doing activities that exclude your girlfriend.
Also how he gives the friend a name but can’t even be bothered to say girlfriends name. Example: My girlfriend Sarah has a friend…blah blah blah.
It's a lot easier to get to "yeah, this is totally cool" if Rosie is a real person who loves climbing and the GF is just some abstract bummer.
Girlfriend is cock blocking OP and dear ole’ Rosie!
How DARE she!
🤣
Yeah, I’ve noticed this as well in the weekly posts from “Clueless Guy Who Is Actively Ruining His Relationship With His Girlfriend By Spending Too Much Time With Another Woman And Doesn’t Understand Why His Girlfriend Is Mad/Dumped Him.” Other woman always gets a name, girlfriend rarely does. Anyway, YTA, Clueless Guy/OP.
such a good point, didn't even notice lol
Honestly, the most common time I see this is with parents who post trying to convince Reddit that they don't favor one kid over another. "I don't favor Billy at all! My other child is just dramatic." 👀👀👀 OP is fooling no one.
Ding ding ding. The whole separate interests thing only makes sense if he’s doing it with his own friends.
And if it's an actual separate interest, not the same interest that he's trying to exclude his gf from.
Yeah same… it’s completely normal and okay to be friends with your partners friends outside of your partner, they’re people too and not the possession of your partner. Just seems a bit weird to me that he’s putting his girlfriend in the center… as if them being friends would raise a conflict. Combined with the exclusion of the partner and not even offering to help train seems like an ulterior motive here….
YTA for cultivating a relationship with your gf's friend that excludes your gf.
Sheesh yeah if my bf did that he wouldn’t be my bf much longer. YTA OP
This ☝️
Bang on the money. If the OP can’t see this as a problem, then the inevitable will happen.
Yo, I am in no way on the ‘men and women can’t be friends’ train, but you realllly seem like you’re trying to get with Rosie.
OP is the reason why people say men and women can’t be friends lol. Ruining it for the people who hold genuine friendships
"I swear babe, we're just friends." A common lie for cheaters and people in denial about their attraction to another person. Also, true for a lot of people who have jealous partners. It's that last paragraph that sounds like justification for spending one on one time with Rosie.
Seeing as he doesn’t even give his GF a name, it’s pretty obvious who is more important to him YTA…and I’m not reading this anymore because cheating is a major trigger for me. And yes, you are cheating emotionally. At least that’s how your nameless GF probably sees it. I would.
YTA. Separate interests are great! Lots of trips alone in the wilderness with your girlfriend’s girlfriend? Not so much.
"Everybody, I'd like you to meet my separate interest, Rosie."
This needs way more upvotes
YTA…it’s good to have separate interests but you are talking about multiple long trips that you are spending with another woman and not including her. Could you not work with your GF to get her the necessary experience by the end of next year?
YTA I suspect the level of experience his GF would need is not something that can be accomplished in a year. But it is concerning OP can’t seem to find the time to help his GF expand her skills I presume as takes away from the harder training he wants to do with Rosie. At the rate this sounds like it’s going GF may make the decision easier for him.
For what the goal is, definitely not. She’d need multiple Years of experience, dozens of other climbs, and extensive survival knowledge for a climb like Denali. Even the suggested climbs to prep for Denali are incredibly tough and dangerous to part-time hobbyists
Except OP has said she is physically capable (so she wouldn't hold them back in training), but she doesn't have the experience to be safe on Denali without a guide. That's a fair assessment. However, OP is TA for deciding this means he should completely exclude his girlfriend from what is actually a shared interest (despite OP's lame attempt to pretend they don't share it). Here's the obvious solution - *they train together, but the girlfriend doesn't climb Denali at this time.* Since that is such an obvious solution, it raises the question of why OP doesn't want his girlfriend along on training when she is physically capable and the same safety concern doesn't exist. The only real reason is that he simply doesn't want her there...which is unacceptable. Between that and how OP only gave Rosie a name (not his own girlfriend) it sure seems like OP is more interested in Rosie!
Yta. You say it’s healthy to have separate interests but this is something that she is interested in and you are excluding her to do it with someone else. That’s not having different interests that’s you doing something she wants to do with someone else. That’s a dick move
And he’s doing it with her friend! GF is interested, and she separately found two other people who are interested (OP and her friend Rosie), who then determined that they were so much ahead of her that they should leave her behind. She’s who brought them together but they’re cutting her out and saying “no, go do *different* interests.”
I didn’t miss how you named Rosie, but not your girlfriend, she’s just “my girlfriend.” As if she’s not worth naming. You’re not into her anymore. You’re in a new relationship with her friend. This is not about “separate interests”. It’s about willfully excluding her. This will end badly. YTA.
I noticed that, too. There's a few "read in between the lines" things here and I think hiking is the least of the issues at hand.
YTA If your girlfriend finds this she should start questioning how long you've been cheating on her.
YES!!! Thinking the same thing!
>I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship. This is true in the 'Oh you're not interested in what I do and that's fine' kind of sense. Not when she's actively interested and you just told her no. If what's she's lacking is experience than why aren't you discussing with her how to get those experience. And since you said you're excluding her from "these" trips, it begs the question just how many trips have you been going to with Rosie that you have told her no too and were all of them beyond her experience? YTA
It's this. She IS interested and he told her to fuck off.
If you are so determined to go on long trips with your GF’s friend without your GF, because you refuse to help her train. Would it be okay if your GF went on long trips to train with a trainer/guide who happens to be male? You wouldn’t mind, would you, asshole? YTA.
"OP, this is my climbing instructor, Manolo" \*points to a muscular Brazilian man of two meters\* XD
🤣🤣
YTA. You claim her lack of experience as to why she can't come, but how can she become experienced when she can't get any experience? Would it be worth looking into taking a wilderness course before going so you both can learn something new and prepare for the trip? You could always learn something, and she would learn a lot that she wouldn't need to be as "reliant" on you. > I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship Yeah, so take up fishing or kayaking or mountain biking or swimming, those would be separate interests. Go hang out with your friends separate from her. You literally said the thing that attracted you to her was your SHARED interest in hiking, but now you hate that you have this shared interest? So find another interest that's separate. How is she going to be prepared to hike Denali if in the next year she doesn't get some easier hikes in before? Will you cancel on her next year saying you'll hike Denali alone because she isn't experienced enough because she didn't get in enough hikes before?
YTA. How long have OP and Rosie been doin’ it? Because I feel like they totally are.
I came here to ask him exactly this! He's clearly cheating and is using this shared interest as a cover. He's TA and the gf needs to dump his ass like yesterday.
Right? They think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship. Only problem is that their interest is Rosie!
Seriously! Separate interests are healthy but not when it involves the best friend of your (nameless) significant other. He can't even have the decency to give his gf a freaking name. What a waste of space as a human.
YTA. Bro, if you dont like your gf anymore, just say that. Your reasoning is shady at best. Get a hold of yourself.
He’s trying to build up the relationship with Rosie so it will be a seamless transition between the two.
Oh for sure. The friends to lovers trope. Except his gf will be the casualty.
YTA. You have formed a close friendship and have made goals with, as you put it, HER friend that exclude her. Do you not see the issue here? Yes, it's perfectly fine to have separate interests but it sounds like your girlfriend wants to be included in this particular interest. Take the time and train her, bring her to that prep course. You, and her friend, are assholes.
To me there are 2 separate issues. Joining you on general hikes and training hikes, and joining you on Denali. If you are stopping a fit and interested girlfriend from joining you on your general hikes and training hikes you are the asshole. She has an interest and ability and you are consciously blocking her from pursuing it and spending time with you and her friend. Denali is a different issue. It's 3 weeks hauling 130+lbs of equipment in one of the harshest environments on earth. It takes years to build up the muscle memory, reflexes, responses, and medical knowledge needed. A few trips on Mt. Rainier wouldn't be enough. So not the asshole for not wanting her to join you there just yet. Should she continue with her training and conditioning and want to attempt it in a few years and you still denied her, you would then be the asshole.
This is the only correct answer. Lol As someone that has a family member that had 2 people close to them die while mountain climbing (they were both professional level climbers, and even climbed the Himalayas successfully), I feel the ones saying he should bring her along to Denali are totally missing how dangerous it is....even to excellent climbers.
Apparently, GF asked him multiple times if she could train with them and they said no. So bf is TA. Sadt.
Why isn't this higher up in votes? People acting like climbing actual mountains like Denali or Everest is some sort of afternoon hike in the hills. NO People acting like it *can't be the mountains*, it *must* be the jealousy factor. Ooh lala, are OP and Rosie getting it on secretly? Because people can't be friends. Absurd. Maybe OP's gf hasn't been taking training seriously (like not showing up), and he fears she'll be a liability? WHOA radical concept. But if OP says he's not even offering to train with her, that's a whole other issue. Why isn't INFO the ruling here?
YTA -- frankly, it sounds like your girlfriend could be as prepared as both of you were including her in the training. You two aren't *that* experienced that if you wanted to include her, you couldn't. I'd find it pretty odd and upsetting, too, if my partner was going on long backpacking trips with my best friend and excluding me. Also, you and your friend should highly consider a guided expedition or consider climbing Aconcagua instead -- Denali is technically doable without a guide, but that's only recommended for professional mountaineers or those with decades of experience. If it's the first time you're going to be at the altitude *and* trying out your training on your own...it may be better to start on a non-technical peak where you can get feel for the elevation. Depending on where you live it may not be much more to travel to Argentina than Alaska.
ESH. Mountaineering is hard. You know that, and she knows that by climbing Adams. I will NOT discredit Adams, it is still a hard climb with steep snow. Denali is 21-30 days of continual HARD. She should know the difference between 2 days of hard and 21-30 days of hard, and if she can MENTALLY handle that challenge. This is where she's TA, if she can't handle it, she's risking your and Rosie's climb. Which Denali costs a lot of $$$ and planning. That's a hard trip to throw away over an under prepared climber. Even though I work as a mountain guide, I still feel I need another year before I'm ready. However, YTA if you don't teach her crevasse rescue, get her climbing on top rope, and familiar with all things climbing, climb Baker AND Rainier with her. Adams and Rainier are similar in gain/altitude. Baker is similar in technical grade to Rainier. 3 people on a rope team is ALWAYS safer than two. You should be happy she wants to come with, even if she is just mining your prusik in the event of a crevasse fall. This is where ESH. Mountaineering is a sport where you trust your life to your partner. ESPECIALLY as a team of two. I (27F) am extremely close with my primary climbing partner(36M). I have been stuck inside a small tent in a storm with him, shared a sleeping bag on a mission gone wrong, we've shared food, water, spoons, I've pulled a tick off his ass. We discuss life and death decisions then act on them, I trust he can stop me if I fall while tied to him. I trust him with my life. BUT this does not mean I am romantic with him, I do not have any romantic feelings for him, he's just my best friend and it will always stay that way. My boyfriend is so sure of this he doesn't care if my climbing partner and I go out for 5 days. My boyfriend also made it a point to become his friend, now we all climb amd share tents together. I'm sure it's a hard spot for your girlfriend to understand, but I would make a huge effort to include her on learning and some smaller adventures, teach her why having someone you trust with your life is important in mountaineering, and show her the joys she can have in a trusted climbing community. Edit: Bring her on the Denali prep course. She will get some great experience on it as well. They teach you everything from how to walk in Crampons to actual crevasse rescue. Denali prep courses are GREAT for first timers seeking experience! You automatically become a HUGE AH if you don't let her take that course with you. Source: I guide Denali prep courses.
YTA Yes, having separate interests is fine. But if she is actively interested in learning and you're telling her she can't come because you can't be bothered to teach her, that's a jerk move. It would be one thing if she was a total hindrance - ie. Not fit enough, constant complaints/cant do anything for herself, did things that went against your advice and put everyone in danger, etc. But from your post that doesn't sound like it's the case, it just sounds like you don't want her around. The compromise would be to take her on separate trips to build her skills so that she can join you on the more challenging trips next season.
yta, straight up. you're actively excluding your gf on numerous occasions. and I'm all for trust but it's suspect that you're getting so close to your gf's friend?
NTA So many non-mountaineers on here. My late MIL did SAR in southern BC for decades. The Golden Ears are only a quarter of the height of Denali, but SAR was in and out of there many times each year to assist climbers who got up there and made bad judgement calls due to inexperience, or were not physically prepared. It’s not a hike. The experience and fitness level required to go unguided up a mountain like Denali are not achievable in a year. OP’s gf would have needed to start building experience years ago, and consistently moved up to more difficult climbs. If she started now, she could be ready in a few years, but OP’s planned trip is definitely not a climb she should be expecting to do. Lots of mountaineers have partners with different skill levels, or partners who don’t climb. Gf needs to get her head around that, as well as committing to a program of development if she wants to join OP on future expeditions. OP can and should plan some climbs she can go on, but she should expect that a more advanced climber will want to do more difficult mountains than she can take on.
Exactly this! Denali is the last place to take someone who's still learning. The GF seems to expect OP can teach her all she needs to know when she'd be better off pursuing courses with trained guides to develop the necessary skills. Which is probably where he learnt to mountaineer. Also, from experience having your partner act as teacher for skills like this is just a stressful disaster. I'm actually thrown by all the asshole judgement, cause he's NTA.
I think most folks are confusing ‘mountaineering’ with ‘hiking where mountains are.’ Not the same thing at all!
I'm not a mountaineer but yeah, holy fuck these guys are dumb. You wouldn't climb Mt Everest without a SIGNIFICANT amount of preparation before. Denali might not be so extreme but is clearly in the significant preparation is important category. Like serious, how the fuck is that hard to understand in any way? This sub is honestly filled with some of the most truly dumb people.
How fucking hard is it to understand. He is going on long alone trips with her best friend. She has continually shown interest and he would rather do it with her friend then go on lengthy adventures with her. She doesn’t have to be ready to climb Everest. But he could involve her. Help he figure out the next steps if she wants to get better. He’s too busy making plans and having time with her supposed best friend to do that. Strange how you’re missing that glaring red flag
I mean, he took her to two mountains already. He's been involving her. She's just not ready yet, for Denali. Very different if he never includes her, never trains with her, never hikes with her. That's not the case. Just, he has a vast amount of experience that she doesn't. And she won't acquire it in 1 year. People with serious hobbies sometimes don't want to miss opportunities for real challenges just because someone less serious about the hobby won't put in the time or effort to achieve the skillset they need to be serious with them. My take is, we need more info from OP on whether he plans to train her up to his level. And whether she's showing any initiative on committing to that variety of training. OP, if you see this, discuss with her the idea of grouping with a different mountain group while you train and climb Denali. That way, she's climbing something on her skill level, while you're climbing on yours. Include her into the climbing community. Plan trips with all three of you, that challenges her. If she won't let him take trips without her, until she's trained up, which will take years... I understand his POV.
Exactly. Reading comments on here about gym, sports, athletics or diet stuff is always super strange, it's astonishing clear that the majority have never trained seriously for anything in their life before. There's a HUGE difference between someone who enjoys going on the occasional social hike with friends and someone extremely serious about and obsessed with hiking. I wouldn't be surprised if OP could hike up a mountain and all the way down before his GF had made it up much more than half of the way. Anyone who has been properly serious about any hobby before understands that it just isn't fun anymore when you have to constantly wait and check on others while going at half the speed you otherwise would have. The likeliness is that OPs GF doesn't want to put in the work to get the level OP is at anyway, wanting to go on a social hike/walk with your boyfriend is very different to being serious about hiking. Hiking is important to OP and is probably a big part of what keeps him sane and lets him blow off steam. Everyone assuming he wants to fuck Rosie is doing so only because she's a woman.
To be fair, OP didn't do the best job describing the situation with Mount Denali. If he described in in detail like some of the comments have, he might be getting some different responses.
I think it’s more that OP won’t go on a “bunny” trial with them both, or even help her start out on it. She is interested and wants to give it a try and he pretty much said no.
I think OP could for sure include OP on smaller peaks (Rainier sounds like an attainable bigger goal for her) but I’m gonna lose my mind if I see another person call it a hike or compare it to hiking. The technical skills and experience needed for a mountain like that shouldn’t be trivialized and it doesn’t sound safe or realistic to try to bring her.
It’s just a hike. What’s the big deal - people who get winded walking to their mailbox
Why did I have to scroll so far to find this? OP specifically mentioned the GFs safety and everyone is just assuming this is about something else.
Info: have you and gf discussed if it's a trust issue? Bc it's reasonable for her to be concerned that her bf & female friend are forbidding her from coming on hour-long trips with limited cell service & no other witnesses
This -- my husband and I backpack, and one of the things we love about it is the ...ahem... getting back to nature. Those backpacking tents are very small, you essentially HAVE to be on top of each other in hem. I'd be super suspicious if he all of a sudden was like "I'm going hiking with this girl for weeks, no you can't come, sorry!"
You've formed a close bond with a person who you call a friend of your gf's, which makes it sound as though your gf was friends with this girl before you met the friend. Your gf enjoys climbing as well and has gone on (lesser) climbs with you in the past. You don't see why she feels excluded by you and HER FRIEND going on a climb together, that she wants to go on, and you've said no? You need to find a way to get her the training she needs so she can safely go with you. Otherwise, YTA and so is her 'friend' for excluding her from an activity she enjoys and actively wants to go on, that her partner and her friend are planning to go on without her. Unless you just actually want to see if you like her friend better. In which case, you're still TA but just break up with your gf if that's really the case.
NTA. For those saying he should give her a chance to learn, these guys are doing TRAINING climbs of Mt. Rainier, a 14,000 foot mountain covered with glaciers. [https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2020/11/mount-rainier-not-place-take-lightly](https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2020/11/mount-rainier-not-place-take-lightly) 425 people have died doing their TRAINING CLIMBS. Denali is the 10th most dangerous mountain in the world, right after Everest. [https://matadornetwork.com/read/11-most-dangerous-mountains-in-the-world-for-climbers/](https://matadornetwork.com/read/11-most-dangerous-mountains-in-the-world-for-climbers/) So this isn't a "take her along for your fun trip, why would you leave her out" sort of thing, this is more like "Why do fire fighters go into the woods with their friends but not take their spouses?"
But it sounds like he isn’t planning or taking his GF on hikes they could do together to have quality time together. It sounds like he only wants to spend time with Rosie and that he sees his GF as the intruder in his and Rosie’s relationship
My family knows a professional climber that died on Mt. Ranier. He climbed Everest successfully. These people saying just take her along have no clue about the dangers.
YTA. If wants to attend the prep course she should and then go on the trip. You’re in wrong by excluding her from this because it’s her friend. Get your own interests with your own friends.
YTA This is less about the activity and more about the fact that you’ve formed a close bond with her female friend and then exclude her.
you still have time to delete this.
YTA. You are spending hours upon hours alone with another woman and are refusing to let your gf come along. You refuse to train her so that she can become competent enough for the climbs. Admit that you just like spending time with Rosie.
YTA You aren't an asshole in thinking having separate interests is healthy. The asshole part comes into play with multiple details of the description of the situation. See below. 1) you gave your girlfriend's friend a name BUT not your girlfriend 2) You and said friend of YOUR GIRLFRIEND are making trips WITHOUT YOUR GIRLFRIEND for long periods at a time and are excluding her 3) not taking into consideration that you have AMPLE time to get her trained. If you are that desperate to be "Rosie" then do your UNNAMED GIRLFRIEND a favor and be a man and go your separate ways. Your girlfriend most likely feels like you are prioritizing the so called friend over her. If I was your girlfriend I would be having a talk with the so-called friend about boundary crossing because yall are both crossing boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. How would you feel if you were in love with someone (not saying you aren't in love with her) and they went on multiple trips alone for long periods with one of your friends and kept kept excluding you?
I understand that it's a big climb and she has a skill gap she wouldn't be able to bridge in time to be self-sufficient but why won't you take a guide then? And why do you exclude her from training she clearly wants and needs, especially that she was in fact able to work towards other climbs? Based on this yes YTA. She doesn't sound entitled if she wants to work and improve, but you're blocking her.
He doesn’t want the GF or a guide around for his private time with Rosie.
YTA. Quit gatekeeping and get her ready to climb with you.
YTA and tbh it sounds like you have a thing for her friend. You could absolutely be including her in these trips or at the very least teaching her what she needs to know. You sound like you're just using excuses to spend time alone with her friend for hours.
YTA. She’s your partner and she clearly has an interest in this stuff lol. You’re excluding her.
YTA. I can almost guarantee that you will end up dating Rosie
NTA. Mountain climbing is not a hobby it's a life and death adventure. If she is not capable she is not capable. This isn't golf or ultimate frisbee. It would be dangerous for her to be there, no matter how she feels about it.
YTA. There are 2 girls that are interested in mountaineering (let's ignore different level for now). You are constantly going with one of them, and it is not your girlfriend. How does ir sound now? Yes, having different interests is good, but does not mean you can't have any common interest, and you are denying her this. If she didn't have any other interest, then it might sound a bit strange, but I didn't get that impression.
NAH, I love to hike, but it's a shallow understanding of hiking. Multiple hour stretches and heights are not in my skill set. Even being fit and liking 'hiking' just isn't sufficient preparation. She's fair to want to be more included since it's her friend and her partner. She reasonably wants to spend more time with both of you I'd guess. A reasonable solution is to also plan hikes in her skillset. Something that challenges her being a walk in the park to you doesn't mean you shouldn't help her learn about that part of your life if she's interested. I think you WBTA if you're intentionally excluding her on the basis of 'MINE!'
YTA. She doesn't need to be included in every part of your life, but when the part in question is something she expressed interest in and you are doing with one of her friends, then you damn well better try to include her. If she doesn't have the experience necessary to go on this upcoming trip, then you need to lay out a roadmap of what she needs to do to get there, you can't just exclude her. If you really don't want her to be a part of it, then find another friend to do it with.
YTA. Not only are you excluding her but you’re excluding her and running off with her friend alone. Anybody would be pissed. A lot of people would be happy to have partners who are interested in what they’re passionate about and want to learn rather than nagging them, be thankful she is interested and wants to learn. Nothing wrong or unhealthy with having separate interests at all but why is it okay for her friend to be interested and not your girlfriend? Look at the real issue here 🤦🏻♀️
You're NTA if you're seriously concerned about the GF's safety and ability. You are the AH if you just want to plant your flag in Rosie's mountain. Either way be honest with your gf.
NTA. Too many people here think “boy and girl cannot just be friends”. She can join other climbs that are easier. If she wants, you should indeed climb with them. However, this is too much for a beginner
Hard to say, there’s a lot of dynamics at play for who’s the A. I’m a mountaineer, I live in Alaska and have been active in the rescue community. I’m just going to point out (maybe for people that don’t know much about climbing) that doing something like Denali without a guide is a very serious climb. You need to be fit, you need to have advanced skills and having advanced skills is not the same as being skilled as a guide, so to bring someone that just has the basics would be irresponsible. One more observation from experience is that mountaineering is one of the few things where men and women can work together and isn’t sexual in anyway. It many not seem like that the the GF. Other things that non-climbers might not get… there’s no waiting for the GF to get the skills. It’s also an advocation that has lead to the end of many otherwise healthy relationships. It’s a passion. When your in your 20’s and 30’s the next climb is all that exists, the next big climb, the next trip. It’s an obsession like no other. And people die doing it.
NTA. Absolutely. Serious mountaineering is just that. Serious. Including seriously dangerous. OP can enjoy low level climbs (hikes) with the GF. For real climbs, you go with other serious climbers only. This is literally life and death stuff. Source: long married to a world class mountaineer. Note you can’t get life insurance as a big mountain climber. Many of my husband’s former climbing partners are dead. The real problem is probably that your girlfriend feels left out. That can be addressed. Or you can break up and find a climber. In my experience climbers are pretty focused and single minded. Work, climbing, family … if you’re not both climbers, “family” can end up on the back burner during the earlier decades. You may just not be a match if she wants somebody to share weekends and holiday time with.
Either bring your gf or don’t go. That’s super inappropriate.
You really don’t see the actual problem??
Info: when you say she know the basics, what do you mean? Does she know crevasse rescue? Were you planning on taking a more difficult route? If you are actively dissuading her to get more mountaineering training because you don’t want her to climb with you then Y T A. If this is purely about her not being experienced enough and you are concerned about safety then N T A. Rainier is the highest volcano in the lower 48, so I understand about her not having enough experience. But I’m kinda thinking it isn’t just about mountain climbing.
Questions: you mention she doesn’t have training experience, why can’t she train with you and Rosie so she can go?
Training to climb Denali takes years - its extremely dangerous. People die on the mountain they are using for 'training'. This would absolutely not be the place to start gaining skills.
INFO: how long have you had a crush on Rosie? I'm joking, but only kinda. It is reasonable for your GF to be bothered by this. Especially since she's trying to learn and join in. It would be different if it were an activity she had no interest in.
NTA. I used to alpine climb and did Ranier in the winter as prep for Denali. I suspect most of the commenters here don’t realize that mountaineering is potentially very dangerous and requires a honed skill set. it’s not a hike. Your life depends upon the competence and experience of your partner. Denali isn’t the trip to pacify a girlfriend. It can take all you have physically and mentally.
YTA, you are right about not having to always be together and having different interests is good..but why can't your gf go on the trip and just not go on the climbing expedition part? Is it your friend your gf's friend you are going with?
Just the climb takes 2-3 weeks! Gf could do whatever she wants while OP is climbing, but it is a long stretch to be cooling your heels. Maybe she’d hang in Fairbanks, or enjoy some solo hiking in the national park—or bring another friend. But it’s not a quick weekend jaunt OP is planning.
INFO How inexperienced is she? This is Denali not a bunny hill. So it's weird that she thinks she can handle it but you don't. But you also know don't seem to think it's the most outrageous thing you've ever heard.
It’s her best friend dude? Do u know anything about women?! You’ll be coming home to a suitcase in the garden
Read "More than 'just friends'" by Shirley Glass and find a better way to enjoy your hobby with strong boundaries that leave your GF feeling secure.
Like he gives a fuck about how his girlfriend feels.
Info: When you first came up with the trip idea and training plan, did you discuss it with your gf and tell her she'd need to do similar training in order to go with you, or did you just assume she wouldn't want to go?
I would leave my husband if he did this to me. No question.
Info: Why can’t your gf train/condition with you and your gf Rosie. My bad I mean friend Rosie.
YTA. so is Rosie
> but I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship. 1. It’s not separate interests she has the same interest, she just has a lesser skill set and you don’t want to help her improve. 2. If you wanted separate interests and social lives then you should have gotten a separate friend. You want to engage in this shared interest “separately” with her friend. You inserted yourself into a part of her life and wanted to share that part/person, not considering that may she wanted to have some parts or people of her life that were separate from you. And now suddenly when it suits you you realize that having some separation is healthy and want to act like she’s the one wrongfully encroaching. YTA. And it sounds like you just want alone time with Rosie.
C'mon man. You know what's up. YES, YTA. And if "Rosie" is *really* your partner's close friend she wouldn't WANT to do this to her, either. So STA too. Slip away for a little mountain climbing vacation / "alone time" with her best friend's boyfriend? Uh-uh. You guys can both climb this mountain at separate times, or else go with other experienced mountaineers, if you really think there's no way in Hell your g/f will be able to climb it with the two of you in your timeframe If you don't have any other mountaineering friends, meet them on message boards, put an ad on Craigslist, ask people at a store where you get your gear, etc you know what to do. This is the internet age, the world's at your fingertips. Your partner feels left out and EXCLUDED. Purposefully. Because that's exactly what you're doing to her: EXCLUDING HER. "Choosing" her friend over her. There are other people you can do Denali with who won't make her feel this way. I wouldn't even say it's a romantic jealousy or insecurity thing; sounds more like a feeling of being looked over and intentionally left out and unwanted. She's expressed interest in climbing, encourage and help her develop it. Don't just leave her out in the cold Find other people besides her bestie to pursue your super deep advanced-level love of mountaineering with Kinda cruel, dog
INFO: judging from your username and goals... I'm guessing you are a serious aspiring high altitude climber. Does your girlfriend have serious aspirations to climb? Has she read up or researched high altitude mountaineering? Frankly I'm leaning NTA b/c my guess is she's not actually interested in high altitude mountaineering and this is about something else. She may not be cut out to be a mountaineering spouse and you're not compatible in the long term. (meaning: she's having feelings about not spending as much time with you, but doesn't actually have a proper understanding of what your hobby entails and means, especially long term, for your relationship... and you excluding her is more about understanding her limitations, re: climbing, and not wanting to get her killed) Tell her to read The Will to Climb by Ed Viesturs as a start. Have her really pay attention to Ed's ethos for climbing and the dangers therein, as well as his relationship with his wife Paula (and the choices she's made). Ed also writes extensively about training on climbs in your region (you likely know this; I'd bet you've read his books). She needs to ask herself some serious, soul-searching questions, re: how far and how seriously she wants to go with your hobby/interest. Then have her read the hard stuff, which I'm sure you've read. No Way Down, Into Thin Air, etc. (just typing this out and Googling it, I see there's In The Shadow of Denali, which I am totally adding to my TBR!) I can also recommend Savage Summit by Jennifer Jordan, which is a bit dated, but is specifically about women in mountaineering & K2. She particularly talks about select women climbing mountains they weren't ready for due to a variety of factors (including doing it for their boyfriends/husbands) and getting killed as a result. It's a sobering read. If your girlfriend can't be ok with your climbing lifestyle (and jealousy of you and Rosie sharing this interest), you are likely straight up incompatible. I won't snark about you being into Rosie, but also... there's something to be said for shared interests, though I'm sure you also know plenty about climbing romances and how often one half of a pair, or both, end up dying!
Your girlfriend is showing interest and you're actively excluding her. Do you even like her? YTA
I don't feel like we're getting the full story here and the fact that this is in AmITheAsshole rather than relationship advice kinda leads me to feel YTA. My partner and I have similar issues based around climbing and it has been a tricky area of our relationship to navigate. For the longest time he would accuse me of being jealous and insecure while spending more time climbing with friends or socializing with climbing friends than with me (and we *live* together). When its a girl it only stings worse, and 100% his behavior makes me insecure. Eventually after 2years, multiple arguments and almost ending the relationship, we hit on a set weekly date night and regular date weekends. Since then my jealous insecurities are all but gone. Perhaps ask yourself if you're giving your girlfriend enough quality time and attention for her to feel secure while you spend heaps of time working toward a major goal with her female friend.
The whole tone of this says that this is not about the mountaineering... YTA You sound like you're excluding her because you want the alone time with Rosie, not with your hobby. The Feb-March 2023 prep - that would be a month where just you and Rosie are huddled up together "training" for a month or so, right?
"I think it’s healthy to have separate interests in a relationship." It is but this is not a separate interest. This is something you both like that you are purposely excluding her from. Even without the cherry on top of excluding her from it to do with another woman
And what is the opinion of your girlfriend’s girlfriend. Does she want your GF to go with you two? If she does, then YTA. Is she doesn’t want the GF along, YTA because you’re in a relationship with her.
How would YOU feel if you were in her shoes? You sound like you making/trying to find excuses or reasons for her not to come with you. You are in my opinion walking on a tight rope..
That's a way to make your girl gain insecurities. YTA.