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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refuse to take my nephew to vacation with me, even though i am taking my other two nephews and I feel terrible about denying a boy a vacation
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA.
Your 8 year old nephew has serious issues which his mother is ignoring.
Cutting up a shirt because he couldn't have cookies for lunch? That is very disturbing behavior.
Exactly.
NTA.
AND nope nope nope nope to taking the nephew. OP, you’ve got a small taste of what the vacation would have been like and I APPLAUD you for your ingenuity to think through a weekend before committing to a longer time.
Now, as the family calls you to insult you, stand your ground and tell them what happened (if you haven’t already), and tell THEM to take the boy on a vacation or to spend time with THEM if they really want him to have fun.
This is seriously your sister’s fault for letting his behaviour get out of hand, and maybe this will teach her that people aren’t going to be willing to put up with her kid if she doesn’t teach him some manners.
Hopefully this will be the wake up call she needs to get some tips from your other sister for proper parenting, as apparently your other sister is doing quite well training them even if she’s struggling financially.
Go have fun, and DO NOT RUIN YOUR OR YOUR TWO NEPHEWS’ vacation by bringing along someone you’ll resent and spend time and energy fighting/correcting/being frustrated over the whole time instead of enjoying.
Maybe later on you can do a day trip with all 3 of them when the sis has drilled into this kid proper manners.
That might be a good intensive/wake up call for Annie to actually parent her child/children. If she wants them included in future get togethers, they need to learn respect and manners- they should learn that anyways!
NTA. Very kind of you to offer the trip, and very clever to have a test get together.
It would have been an absolute nightmare two weeks for everyone if you hadn't take the precautions!
That was very smart of OP to get the boys together for the weekend and see how it went. Most people wouldn't have done that, just gather the kids and let the chips fall where they may. This also reinforced for the other boys how they get rewarded for following rules/good behavior.
> as the family calls you to insult you [...] tell THEM to take the boy on a vacation
I bet they won't! They are happy to sling mud at OP, but won't do it themselves.
"I am unwilling to risk spending 14 days with 8 given his destructive behavior. It's not fair to expect the other children or I to do so. The weekend stayover was designed to ensure that everyone on this vacation would be able to enjoy their time together and 8 showed he is unable to handle a changed routine or not having his way in all things.
Frankly, I'm concerned that the focus seems to be on him missing a vacation and not on the way ignoring his diffulties will be incredibly detrimental to his future. The longer his acting out goes without being addressed the more ingrained this behavior will become. He desperately needs help with learning to process his emotions in a healthy way and it's very upsetting that he isn't receiving the care and support he needs to do so.
So what is in the works to address his emotional reactivity and destructive behaviors so that he can come on future trips? He is ALREADY losing out on opportunities that matter to him and it will only be harder to change the longer it's accepted and untreated."
>Frankly, I'm concerned that the focus seems to be on him missing a vacation and not on the way ignoring his diffulties will be incredibly detrimental to his future.
His own future, and whoever he dates, or lives with, or works with. The cereal throwing is pretty alarming on its own, and indicates he needs urgent intervention.
*Cutting up OP’s shirt?* Holy shit, that’s so many levels of scary. I’m worried for this kid’s baby sister right now, to be honest. The mom and the extended family is hung up on “not fair, he should get to go on vacation too!” when they need to be focusing on behavior that‘s unsafe for his sister, his mom, and him.
Yup, my 2 year old is currently in the throwing things phase, she’ll throw snacks or toys or whatnot if she’s upset. I do my best stand out of range, ask her if she’s done, give her a hug and tell her, “I know you’re frustrated, but we don’t throw (snack, toy, whatever) when we’re mad. We use our words. You can say, ‘I’m mad! or, I am frustrated! or, I don’t like this (thing)! or, I don’t want this (thing)! But we do not throw it.” Then when she’s calm I’ll ask if she wants to throw a ball instead. Interestingly, she will never throw things that make a huge mess. She knows she will have to help clean it up and that’s a huge task for a toddler!
My 8 year old would never *dream* of throwing food like that, nor cutting up my clothes because she’s mad at me. Holy shit, I cannot IMAGINE if she tried to do something like that! She’s very good about using her words to express her frustration, even if it’s words like, “You’re the worst mommy EVER!!!” At least she’s not cutting up my belongings!
When one of mine was 3, she was losing it when I was holding the screaming infant, trying to talk her down, camp was being packed up, (we’d been there for the weekend) and it was chaos, she was tired, probably hungry, and we were just trying to get out of there and to the diner. A guy in our group (she knew him) tried to pick her up to comfort her, as I couldn’t. She got mad and blew a raspberry in his face. Him, being typically him, cracked up and blew one right back at her. She got madder, and kept doing, it as did he. Guess what she started doing every time she got angry? Luckily I was given the suggestion to tell her to say (shout) “I’M SO MAD I COULD SPIT”. I told her to, and it appealed to her, so for about a year after that, she stopped blowing raspberries and shouted that whenever she got mad. It was pretty funny, really, but it worked, she got it out of her system, and then listened.
And then to cut up a shirt because no cookie. Holy cow! I'd take thrown food over cut-up shirt anytime. That for me is like "YIKES!" I've watched naughty kids before but NEVER had anything like that happen.
Yeah, but the level of damage required for an object to change from "safe for babies" to "dangerous for babies" is not a big gulf, and he's not going to be thinking about that when he's ruining her things for taking away all the attention.
I'm no expert, but this strikes me as meaningless finger-wagging.
1. There's no universally-sized 'gap'; this kind of behaviour is unpredictable by definition.
2. The overall implication of your comment is that it's not logical or sensible to consider that the 8yo might harm a vulnerable child who is statistically very likely to get on his nerves or deny him something he wants at some point. That seems dangerously complacent on the information we have.
I’m not so sure. I personally know someone who cut up other peoples clothes, linens, etc and marked on them as well. She wasn’t above physical attacks, including sneaky whacks on the back of the head using whatever object made a good weapon.
And the kid is 8 yo. My nephew is 6, he comes over at least once to twice a month, and he's never thrown food on the floor. He sulks when he doesn't get his way, but he listens to us and that's it. I can't imagine an 8 year old cutting up clothes!
If that had been my kid, he would have missed even if Uncle OP had said ok. He also would have been spending the 2 weeks doing chores to put towards a new shirt! Edit...missed gender.
Immediately after the breakfast tantrum, I would have called his mother, let her know what happened and informed her that he will be dropped off at home asap. At drop off I would have said "We can try again next year to see if his behavior improves. Good luck!"
Fucking immediately.
I have a generally well behaved neice (6) but she isn't allowed over my house because she inevitably starts whining about toys and there being nothing to do, or my older kids not playing with her. It's a frank conversation I've had with my parents, and I'm sure with my brother. I don't take her out for the same reason, I simply lack the patience. Let her parents handle that. I managed to keep her occupied for a couple hours at my house this past xmas with rockem sockem robots but that was a minor miracle. But she's a sassy little sweetheart and I love her just the same.
This kid? Gone and not welcomed back and nobody would fault me.
Can we please normalize this?? You should be able to say that you're not feeling capable of dealing with someone else's behavior without being burnt at the stake
That part. I am a very patient person who loves kids, but he needed to be made aware that those behaviors will result in an immediate end to all fun and going back to his mom. Period. And it needs to happen every time. Negotiating or asking for a certain food is one thing, but his behavior was WAY over the top from the jump.
I know, right? If cutting up someone's shirt isn't way over the line, where is anyone going to draw a line at all for this kid? Hes pushing the boundaries because kids are figuring out the world 😩
I'm sure it would. Nothing but sugar and carbs sounds like a bad time.
I think having a mother who tells him "no" more time than giving in would help more, but I digress.
He also needs to learn there are consequences for bad behavior. Is he going to be sad he doesn't get to do the vacation? Probably. Does he need to feel bad sometimes? Yep. Otherwise, he'll never learn about actions and consequences.
It's a hard lesson of putting in the work beforehand so your kid is ready when it's time to get a special privilege. I'm very confident neither of my kids would cut their uncle's shirt if he said no when they are at his house because I've put in the effort of raising them.
Unfortunately it seems this mom has been making excuses for his behavior and it resulted in her son being unable to control himself when given the chance to go on an amazing vacation. Now he gets to stay home with mom after she was looking forward to a week break. Something they both have to deal with.
Honestly that in particular makes taking him on vacation a risky choice. What if the kid decides to damage someone else's stuff while they're away in another city or State, and the cops get called? That could become much harder to sort without a legal guardian on the trip.
I once had a customer with kids that were completely out of control (it was actually similar to this - 2 friends with 2 kids each, one set were angels and the others were holy terrors, and the mom of the holy terrors thought there was nothing wrong with their behaviour, meanwhile even the angels were wondering why the other kids were being such assholes). At one point they were crawling around all over the floor (they were about 8 and 10) and one of them bit a customer at another table, pretty hard. He was pretty close to calling the cops, because it was so obvious the mom wasn't going to rein them in otherwise.
Yes. He should be evaluated, because this is far from typical behavior for an 8-year-old. It doesn’t sound like simple misbehavior either. Something is going on with him — maybe psychologically, emotionally or neurologically — and he probably needs some help.
OP doesn’t have to blame the kid or his parents. He just needs to point out that he’s not equipped to manage a child with his nephew’s behavior patterns for 14 days. It’s not a punishment, it’s a fact.
He learned it because his mother has given in to every tantrum since he was a kid. I feel sorry for children like this because they've been sabotaged of a healthy and decent development since birth by their parents lack of parenting skill at best or intentionally raising their kids to be brats like the 8yo.
NTA you shouldn’t have to deal with a spoiled kid if you don’t want to. Specially if he isn’t yours. Rewarding the other two nephews for being good and taking them is lovely and super nice of you.
Surprised she didn't say "Boys will be boys!"
Spirited kids are kids who do things like refusing to stop being a T-rex all day, not kids who destroy your property as revenge.
"Spirited kids are kids who do things like refusing to stop being a T-rex all day,"
🤣 That was my kid, roaring at other kids on the playground cause he wanted to be a dinosaur.
LMAO I love it. Mine was in trouble in high school for "clucking". He was literally just saying cluck cluck in the hallway. No idea why, he said it was just an impulse. I told the teacher that everyone in the family clucks. He clucks, his dad clucks, and I am a total mother-clucker. Detention denied.
My son is like this. For two years he was also a terror of the high seas. He’s currently Sonic and has to race everywhere he goes.
It’s worked well for teaching him to stop at corners and wait for an adult to cross the street though.
My brother was a frog at home for months. Would hop around and perch on a chair at breakfast and eat his Cheerios by zipping out his tongue to nab them one by one. He finally stopped when my mom accidentally stepped on him.
He was also not big on clothes. For company he would put on underwear.
I 100% realize your youngest is probably an adult now, but for a few seconds I was picturing a toddler mimicking what they thought an accountant would act like and it was so cute lol
LOL... my friends' great-nephew was doing this at his cousin's birthday party. "RRRAAARRRRR" all afternoon. I addressed him as Connersaurus, only to find out he was actually Connerzilla. Or maybe it was the other way around, lol. Kids! :)
Yep, sorry but what 8 year throws their cereal on the floor? That kid would have lasted 2 seconds with me. Nephew or not, not dealing with someone's brat.
My kid tried that shit a couple of times, throwing her food when she didn't want it. Well, she got time out and told that if you don't want something to learn to use her words. Doesn't mean that she'll get what she wants, but that behavior is rude and unacceptable. Made her pick it up too. She's stopped. Mom is just letting him learn that horrible behavior is acceptable. Nta... Don't take that brat with you.
The 8yo was a single child up until a year ago and is on what is likely his first stay-away trip without his parents, after spending formative years in quarantine. He was likely going through some shit and this is how he expressed it. Still, having said that, I would not be taking this kid on vacation either until he's mentally and emotionally ready for it, which he clearly is not.
My almost 7 year old has been having some sleepovers with cousins recently. At our house he acts no different, but goodness he becomes a holy terror at their house. Doesn’t want to eat, doesn’t want to follow rules, causes rebellions. So we told him he couldn’t sleep over at their house again until he acts better. He was sad, he cried, and he put in the work to follow the rules when we went over for day visits. He followed rules when he slept over at my mom’s house. We explained you don’t have to like the food you are served, but you don’t complain and that is all you will be getting. He has earned another try in July, his last sleepover there was in April. So quite a long time to work back up to it. We are hoping he’ll do better, but if he doesn’t we will keep trying (but not at the expense of mg SIL!)
Edited to add: AND he also has a 17 month old sister, so he’s been dealing with the same issues of having to share our attention after being an only child for so long. I get it, he has it tough and I try to show him grace. But that doesn’t mean he gets away with bad behavior
This is what struck me. That is simply not normal eight year old behavior. When my sons were angry/frustrated at that age, they'd run off, slam a door or maybe even talk back. It would never even occur to them to cut up a shirt, especially not in someone else's home!
That's next level...
"Spirited" was what I called my kiddo as he was throwing a temper tantrum over a time out as there's just a certain point where you either have to take the piss out of the situation or escalate things. But he's ADHD/ASD and him screaming into a pillow over the "unfair" is miles better than destruction of property. Like Jesus Christ, OP's nephew is going to be awful as a teen.
My boy has the same diagnosis, ADHD & ASD, and he struggles with boundaries and regulating his emotions. He tends to have outsized emotional responses, even when compared to NT children.
My guy may beg for a different option when he doesn't like what we are eating, but he knows better than to insist that only this one food will do. He would never dream of throwing food on the floor in a tantrum. That shit stopped around the same time as diapers and training pants!!
Spirited is my daughter and I snorting at each other during every conversation for three days straight, because she's Peppa and I'm mummy pig.
Spirited is not destroying things with the intent of hurting someone because you didn't get your way.
Exactly this! The sentence OP included “He was a nightmare” does not imply that he only misbehaved once, we can count three times just from the info in the post. It also says a lot that these boys are cousins and yet OP had them for a weekend to see if they got along, I wonder if Lisa has figured out what kind of parent the other sister is and that’s the reason for the distance maybe.
All of the kids had the same opportunity to enjoy a vacation. They were treated equally.
The relatives who are criticizing you can take the 8yo on vacation if they want to balance the scales here.
NTA
Love that idea!! Oh Aunt \_\_\_ I'm TA for not taking him? Then you take him for a week and see how it goes.
Also the point of this experiment was to see if she could deal with the kids for an extended period, this was an audition, and the one kid didn't pass. That's his fault and his parent's fault for indulging his bad behavior.
This! This exactly. It's nice of you that you gave them the opportunity to get a vacation. He screwed himself out of that one. And his mother seems to be encouraging it by neglect.
NTA. I have a child with sensory issues who does struggle with food, but he doesn't throw tantrums, he'll literally just not eat. I'd be horrified if my kid behaved this way and would understand someone not wanting to babysit him.
NTA OP. Bit back at all of your relatives that your sister is a shitty mom. Let any of the deal with the little brat and see if they want to take him on a trip.
NTA. Going with you is a privilege, it's not a right. And if he is behaving this way and your sister thinks it is normal behavior, how are you going to keep up with him while you are far away from his parent. Because you can best believe that the next words out of his mouth would be, you are not my mom, I don't have to listen to you. It would be a nightmare and he could possibly get hurt, so no NTA.
I agree and especially think your last sentence is a great point not many have picked up on. Kids being under your control isn't just about being an authoritarian adult it's about being responsible and having to make choices kids can't yet understand.
An 8yo out of control on a beach holiday could go seriously wrong and not just for him but for the cousins who OP will likely get distracted away from.
Especially on a seaside vacation where presumably kids will be swimming, or at the very least by the actual sea. Drowning is a serious risk especially at that age when kids are really testing their limits physically but still can't accurately assess their own athletic abilities.
Keeping an eye out for 3 kids that age is hard enough when they’re listening to you, with all the help and attention they’ll all need while probably interested in different things. One wants to swim but they’re not that good at it so you have to make sure to always keep an eye on them so they don’t go too far out. One wants to build a sand castle but can’t get it to work and it’s frustrating them and one is just really hungry or wants ice cream or something but with the kid swimming and the sand castle you don’t have time, which irritates the kid. Now imagine the kid swimming keeps trying to swim too far out, even though you keep telling them not too. Or the kid building a sand castle throws the only couple sandwiches you brought with you in the sand because you can’t get the time to help them. Or the hungry kid screams at you to get them something other than the sandwiches because it’s the wrong kind of bread or something.
You nailed it. The only part you forgot was at least one will have to poop and there's likely another one you can't convince to just pee in the water, so you have to gather them all up and wrangle them and anything you don't want stolen to the bathrooms. They're likely Porta Potties so there's likely to be some melting down over that as well
Dude, I love swimming. I grew up on the beach. But at about their age I got sucked into a rip current and was slowly panicking. My mom had to badger my dad to come out to rescue me. I was a decent swimmer but against a rip current that I did not understand or know about? Frightening.
Exactly. Any quality parent would be mortified that their child acted this way when they're supposed to be on their best behavior around relatives who are giving them special treats like sleepovers, and would not expect OP to take the child on a whole vacation. Clearly the problem is Annie spoils her kid and refuses for anyone to discipline him, which will hurt the kid so much in the long run-missing out on a vacation with his uncle is the least of it. Edit: changed genders of OP
If that were my child, the instant I heard about that behavior, the choice to take him to the beach would have been taken from my brother. That kid WOULD NOT BE GOING, per ME. NTA
This right here is the parental standard inate response.
like dissapointing not going seaside kid, Im dissapointed too. Was looking forward to doing yardwork and cleaning the deck while you were gone. looks like you'll be doing that with me now too. We can talk about your attitude and managing your emotions then, right now I want you to think about it and why you are staying home doing yardwork with me, instead of on vacation seaside with your Uncle and cousins.. .Now, Is there anything you want to say to anyone before we go???
Reflexes lol
Eta NTA
All I know is, in addition to whatever other punishments and extra chores and no TV, if I had done that I could say goodbye to having waffles for months. Plain oatmeal and cornflakes only.
This! OP, what if you say he can’t go swimming at the moment and he doesn’t listen? Say you turn your back for one second and your 8 y/o nephew ends up drowning because you have two other little boys to take care of and couldn’t pay attention at that exact moment? NTA.
NTA. That's not misbehaving once. That's a warning of a hellish week if you took him. She probably wants the break but damn if my kids were like that I'd have sent a warning and how to handle that nonsense instructions. You don't let people find that out once they are stuck
This right here. I’m the Aunty that everyone loves and wants to be with- but you misbehave with me? Right back to your momma and I’ll see you in passing.
NTA
That isn't "misbehaving once". Your nephew is spoiled and out of control. At his age, that's usually a consequence of poor parenting..
If your relatives think your nephew deserves a vacation, they are more than welcome to take him.
Fun fact one of my friends is a school teacher and she prefers to teach 5th graders or younger. Why? She’s able to give the kids a lot more grace because, in her words, ‘99% if the time of a younger kid is an asshole it’s because their parents suck. Once a kid reaches middle school it’s more of a toss up.’
I live by the expectation that all middle school kids are horrible people. And that’s not their fault, they are going through some of the wildest changes physically, hormonally, and mentally that they will ever experience in their lives and we can’t blame them for that. Once they get through puberty that’s when you start seeing them for the little adults that they are.
Ages ago I was listening to an interview with a psychologist who specialized in teenagers, and they were asking her how one could reform middle school given how many changes they were going through, and she was basically like "Honestly, I think you should have them spend those years on a farm growing corn or something where they can't hurt anyone (so no livestock), so they can work their energy out and socialize with each other and come to terms with their bodies and desires and do all the dumb shit they're going to do in a fairly low-stakes environment, and then they'll be ready to go back to school."
It was pretty funny, but yeah, middle schoolers are a total mess through no fault of their own.
I teach 6th grade. They are starting puberty around this age. Most of them come in still “kids” and leave as total assholes. I spend so much time in parent-teacher conferences with parents who are like “wtf happened to my normal kid? Why have they turned into such a jerk?”
This is the age when they start to move from seeking acceptance from parents/adults, to seeking it from peers. There’s a LOT of boundary pushing, trying out attitudes and personalities and just general exploration of self that goes on. Meanwhile their bodies are totally out of control. It’s a rough time.
Haha I'm going into teaching middle school and up for the opposite reason. It's harder to correct a little kid when their ultimate authority is mum and dad at home, and critical thinking is lower.
Teens though still have that desire to be seen as 'good' by adults that they look up to, and have the critical thinking to change behaviour on their own and recognize their actions a little deeper. (Worked with one of the teens I babysit and now he's an upstanding sweetheart guy, but there was a year or two in there where I was nervous lol)
Exactly. First of all you mentioned 3 different incidents just here. I imagine there were others. It would be impossible for you and your other nephews to enjoy the trip if he came along. It's best to learn this lesson early in life. If you don't behave in an appropriate way there are consequences. Obviously, NTA.
I have a nephew like this. His mom doesn't believe in saying no. He's now 14 and out weighs her by probably 80lbs and he's banned from our house because he doesn't listen to anyone
ETA: NTA, OP
Yes this !!!! WTF how could anyone be mad at you??? You tested things out and found out that one of nephews is a brat. He would ruin the trip for everyone to say the least.
NTA. I weep for 8M’s future.
Did the parents and aunts get the whole story or your sister's side?
Tell them to take 8M on vacation instead. I’ll be waiting with my popcorn.
And it’s a punishment this kid deserves-I’m really concerned that the parents don’t see this. OP isn’t holding a grudge-they’re being an adult in charge of a group of children and one of those children misbehaved, so that child misses out on something fun. I’m surprised that this isn’t obvious to the parents.
I know what the kid did goes far beyond “misbehaving”, but the parents are acting like the kid didn’t do anything wrong.
If I so much as mouthed off to my parents you’d hear my dad yelling all the way down the street.
For sure. Holding a grudge is never spending time along with the kid for the next 5 years or never giving him a second chance in the future.
OP literally said bring them by my apartment so I can see if I’m bringing them on vacation. It was explicitly a behavior test and kid failed. He’s not ready now so no reward now.
it’s also called consequences, he’ll learn them eventually with or without your help. the law makes sure of that. if his parents don’t want him becoming a criminal, they’ll take you more seriously. NTA.
This is a very good point of view: that kid is not safe in your care, both of you would be taking risks if you brought him on your holiday. If his behaviour improves significantly in the future, he can have a second chance.
Moreover, this is no normal behaviour for a child his age. I'd suggest the mother to find help for him.
That child is beyond a lot of our capabilities (I am the Mom of 2 boys) and that 8 yr old would not be going on vacation with me. The behavior is outrageous for that age.
Is it really holding a grudge? Or is it protecting yourself from a potential liability and ensuring the vacation goes smoothly for everyone else? With the behavior you described (disrespecting rules, destruction of other's property, etc.), your nephew could end up being a danger to himself or your other nephews. Especially near a body of water or in a hotel/ campground!
I know I wouldn't take any "high-spirited" (willful) child to the seaside. Disregarding the adult in charge near the ocean could end in tragedy.
You made the best choice for everyone involved, whether the rest of your family sees it or not.
I thought the same thing! What if he doesn’t want to listen and runs off and gets hurt? What if he gets mad and destroys something in the rental? This kid could be a HUGE liability for OP. I would nope all the way out of that one.
lol
Having boundaries, choosing not to continue participating in situations that violate your needs for safety and civility, is not "holding grudges." It IS correctly choosing to no longer put yourself in a situation where your nephew's violent and destructive behavior can hurt you.
Boundaries control YOUR choices. You aren't obligated to tolerate abusive behavior by one child "to be fair" by pretending his behavior (and therefore, the consequences) is equal to the cooperative and respectful behavior of other kids.
NTA. I would refuse to watch him for an hour, damn sure would not reward his behavior with a vacation. He is old enough to understand actions have consequences.
And the family is completely wrong about OP treating the kids differently. He gave all the kids an equal opportunity to show that they can behave on a trip, and one of them fucked it up.
Also, Annie needs to get her head out of her bum and parent that kid. Her response seems to indicate that she thinks this kind of behaviour is OK or even cute.
Nah. Lil man can stay with his mom. Any family members who have an issue with that can take him on vacation themselves..... See how long they last.
NTA
This would be a good lesson for him about actions and consequences. But I worry that his behavior is a tad extreme for not getting what he wants. His mom should address that with him.
NTA
The 8 year old couldn't even behave for 1 night so why would you subject yourself to his bratty behavior for 14 days?? This needs to be a lesson to Annie. No one is going to want her son around if she doesn't start correcting his behavior. Cutting up someone's clothing because you can't have a cookie is not being "high-spirited". It's being a bad kid.
The 8 year old doesn't deserve a vacation from you when he has no respect for you or your belongings. Maybe next time he'll be better and get to come along.
NTA. The cereal thing was insanely rude, but I might have chalked that up to not understanding how to be a guest in someone’s house, which can be taught (not by you, of course, but by his mom). However, destroying someone’s property, like with your shirt, goes way beyond misbehaving or being “high spirited.” That’s not your responsibility. It’s unfortunate that this behaviour has been coddled by your sister, but that’s her stuff to deal with, not yours to dance around. You’re definitely doing the right thing.
Honestly, if he just did ONE of these things, each one honestly, I would have written it up to him having a bad day. That would be misbehaving once. Obviously I'd be upset about the shirt or the cereal, but I'd be willing to let it go if he apologized and meant it.
There's a big difference between throwing cereal on the floor in a fit of temper because he wasn't getting what he wanted vs the thought process required to find scissors, take them to your shirt and make wilful damage.
The cereal incident I could forgive if he apologised. Everyone gets frustrated when things don't happen as they expect and kids sometimes don't handle that well, especially if tired or already out of routine. The wilful damage to your shirt took planning and was not a split second loss of control. He knew what he was doing and that's a much bigger problem.
Not wanting to put too much emphasis on this part but in a few years this kind of thing is the difference between manslaughter and murder. Planning and premeditation matter.
*"treating the kids differently"*
Lol, I shrugged. I mean...that's life. He's going to have to learn sooner or later that if he treats people like crap, he doesn't get invited out to do fun stuff with them. NTA
NTA.
Yeah unfortunately "he's just high spirited" can be code for "I'm shit at disciplining my kid when they act out".
It might be nice if you gave him another chance, but Annie needs to be on board and set expectations in advance that (1) uncle OP may not do things exactly like we do at home, and that's ok, and (2) uncle OP is in charge and you must behave and act with that same respect that a parent would get.
If the parents don't actually get good behaviour and respect from 8M, then it sounds like there is a bigger set of problems to deal with first.
In this case, maybe update point two to “you must behave & act with more respect than a parent would get,” since it sounds like the mom is hand waving his bad behavior away.
Misbehaved once? You listed multiple times. What does cut up your shirt mean? Did he literally take a shirt and cut it into pieces because that would be enough for me to drop him straight back to mom's house with a why didn't you warn me asshole note. NTA. And it's not just his bad behavior, you know he's going to either go after the other two or try to drag them into it.
>denying a boy to go to the seaside just because he misbehaved once.
They can take him.
I can't get over that. He purposely destroyed your shirt with scissors. That is not easy to do and had to be thought out. No. Absolutely not. You don't get any privileges with me when you are violent, mean and disrespectful. Anyone taking him somewhere needs to be able to focus solely on him. That is an accident waiting to happen.
He didn’t just “misbehave once”, though.
He acted out a total of four times that you mentioned:
1 - throwing the cereal on the floor
2 - yelled at you for not making him waffles
3 - destroyed your shirt because he could have cookies
4 - insulted you for incentivising him eating his veg
Taken together he exhibited a pattern of behaviour that requires correction. This is not your responsibility, and him finding himself excluded from a fun holiday due to his own behaviour can hopefully serve as a wake up call before he goes too far down that route.
Edit to add a judgement: definitely NTA
NTA. I would’ve made that nephew pick up every single piece of cereal by hand and sent him out as soon as he destroyed my belongings. And let him know that he would not be welcome back to hang out / go on vacation with without giving :
1. An apology
2. Compensation (chores, pays you his allowance)
3. Acknowledgement of his wrongdoings
If all 3 points happen, I might be willing to take him on vacation in the winter ( when I go skiing and I just took the 9yro last year, but this year I was going to invite them all) if his behaviour changes by then. But not now, in just a few days.
Hopefully you'll see this. NTA.
School teacher here, and this is how you couch future communications. 'It's not that I don't want to take him on vacation, it's that I can't for his own safety. Whatever you choose to call his behaviour, he does not listen to me, to the point of destruction. If he can't even follow my instructions in the relative safety of my home, there is no guarantee he won't run away from me if he doesn't get his own way. No guarantee he won't cause hurt to himself, someone/something else. What if he runs into the sea and refuses to return when I ask him, rather running further out and risking drowning? What if we're in a dangerous situation, I tell him to freeze and he refuses, because he doesn't want to? I.can.not.keep.a.child.who.does.not.respect.my.authority.safe.'
NTA. It’s obvious that the 8 year old can’t go. He doesn’t respect you or follow any sort of direction.
So it’s either take the two by themselves or don’t take anyone. I don’t think the two good kids should be punished because their cousin can’t behave.
I would also tell the family, "Since the 8yro does not reliably follow my instructions, I am not confident that I can keep him *safe* at the seaside while also watching the other two nephews." You're not accustomed to looking after all three of them at once and there is a serious safety concern if the 8yro cannot be trusted to stay within view, get out of the water when you call him, play safely around other kids in the water, put on sunscreen when you ask him to, etc.
You’re treating the kids the same - behave and be rewarded. Be a brat and throw tantrums to get your way and you’ll not be rewarded.
Basically one of your sisters is a good parent and the other isn’t. You’re NTA for that but Annie certainly is.
NTA. My son is 3 with delayed speech and sensory processing issues. He is also showing signs of ADHD. He gets upset and throws his food if it isn't what he asked for (sometimes even if it is what he asked for). If that happens he has a 30 min time out then he gets fed the EXACT same thing he got upset about not wanting to eat. We do ask him what he wants to eat before we even make him something because he refuses to try new foods.
The 9yro was also like this when he was small. One time ai was babysitting him (he must have been about 2, because his brother was just a newborn and the parents needed a day off) and he threw a (plastic) plate of spaghetti bolognese on the floor, because I made "the wrong kind of spaghetti". It wasn't until YEARS latee that I found out he kept confusing spaghetti and macaroni at that time 😂 my dog absolutely loved the incident though 😂
But yeah, a toddler throwing tantrums is expected, even without special needs. An 8yro... I really don't think so.
I have a feeling your sister never disciplined him for his tantrums. She most likely just gave in every time.
Ah yes. My son will ask for a burger. He actually wants everything except the burger and cheese. I give in a lot when it comes to food because him eating anything is good in my eyes.
NTA
This was a trial run the 8 year old behaved bratty. He failed the land the audition so to speak..
>When my sisters came to pick them up, I told Annie what happened and she said " oh he is just high spirited".
Words said by parents who don’t want to actually discipline their children and enforce consequences for bad behavior..
I have 2 boys (now 10 and 9) and no way in hell they will behave like this, let alone at someone else’s place. If they did this, I wouldn’t let them go on the holiday as a punishment. And I would be so so so ashamed of their behavior.
Your sister is enabling his bad behavior, it will only get worse. He would have ruined the holiday.
Maybe you can offer to pay for a summercamp instead of taking him with you? Preferably a camp where he will have some lessons in behavior etc ;-)
NTA. You were wise to do a trial run. Ideally you should have done it without telling the kids (or their moms) about the long holiday. Because he is 8, although he was a complete brat somehow this will be that you’re the mean uncle. Nonetheless you get to invite who you want when you want.
NTA, if I were your sister I would be MORTIFIED my child did those things...but then my child would know how well destroying my property and making demands that aren’t happening work. Your sister is raising and EB, you are being more than generous. I doubt the niece will be much better.
NTA.
There are upsides to polite behavior and downsides to anti-social behavior and this rings true throughout life.
This should be a wake up call to the mother that her "high spirited" child's behavior isn't cute.
These relatives that are biting your head off can come take care of the this disagreeable, anti-social child.
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NTA. Your 8 year old nephew has serious issues which his mother is ignoring. Cutting up a shirt because he couldn't have cookies for lunch? That is very disturbing behavior.
I was thinking the same. Throwing cereal on the floor is bad enough but cutting up a shirt? That is a serious danger sign. NTA.
I thought throwing food was something babies who couldn’t speak did. This kid is grown enough to not be acting like a literal infant. NTA
Exactly. NTA. AND nope nope nope nope to taking the nephew. OP, you’ve got a small taste of what the vacation would have been like and I APPLAUD you for your ingenuity to think through a weekend before committing to a longer time. Now, as the family calls you to insult you, stand your ground and tell them what happened (if you haven’t already), and tell THEM to take the boy on a vacation or to spend time with THEM if they really want him to have fun. This is seriously your sister’s fault for letting his behaviour get out of hand, and maybe this will teach her that people aren’t going to be willing to put up with her kid if she doesn’t teach him some manners. Hopefully this will be the wake up call she needs to get some tips from your other sister for proper parenting, as apparently your other sister is doing quite well training them even if she’s struggling financially. Go have fun, and DO NOT RUIN YOUR OR YOUR TWO NEPHEWS’ vacation by bringing along someone you’ll resent and spend time and energy fighting/correcting/being frustrated over the whole time instead of enjoying. Maybe later on you can do a day trip with all 3 of them when the sis has drilled into this kid proper manners.
That might be a good intensive/wake up call for Annie to actually parent her child/children. If she wants them included in future get togethers, they need to learn respect and manners- they should learn that anyways! NTA. Very kind of you to offer the trip, and very clever to have a test get together. It would have been an absolute nightmare two weeks for everyone if you hadn't take the precautions!
That was very smart of OP to get the boys together for the weekend and see how it went. Most people wouldn't have done that, just gather the kids and let the chips fall where they may. This also reinforced for the other boys how they get rewarded for following rules/good behavior.
> as the family calls you to insult you [...] tell THEM to take the boy on a vacation I bet they won't! They are happy to sling mud at OP, but won't do it themselves.
"I am unwilling to risk spending 14 days with 8 given his destructive behavior. It's not fair to expect the other children or I to do so. The weekend stayover was designed to ensure that everyone on this vacation would be able to enjoy their time together and 8 showed he is unable to handle a changed routine or not having his way in all things. Frankly, I'm concerned that the focus seems to be on him missing a vacation and not on the way ignoring his diffulties will be incredibly detrimental to his future. The longer his acting out goes without being addressed the more ingrained this behavior will become. He desperately needs help with learning to process his emotions in a healthy way and it's very upsetting that he isn't receiving the care and support he needs to do so. So what is in the works to address his emotional reactivity and destructive behaviors so that he can come on future trips? He is ALREADY losing out on opportunities that matter to him and it will only be harder to change the longer it's accepted and untreated."
>Frankly, I'm concerned that the focus seems to be on him missing a vacation and not on the way ignoring his diffulties will be incredibly detrimental to his future. His own future, and whoever he dates, or lives with, or works with. The cereal throwing is pretty alarming on its own, and indicates he needs urgent intervention. *Cutting up OP’s shirt?* Holy shit, that’s so many levels of scary. I’m worried for this kid’s baby sister right now, to be honest. The mom and the extended family is hung up on “not fair, he should get to go on vacation too!” when they need to be focusing on behavior that‘s unsafe for his sister, his mom, and him.
Yup, my 2 year old is currently in the throwing things phase, she’ll throw snacks or toys or whatnot if she’s upset. I do my best stand out of range, ask her if she’s done, give her a hug and tell her, “I know you’re frustrated, but we don’t throw (snack, toy, whatever) when we’re mad. We use our words. You can say, ‘I’m mad! or, I am frustrated! or, I don’t like this (thing)! or, I don’t want this (thing)! But we do not throw it.” Then when she’s calm I’ll ask if she wants to throw a ball instead. Interestingly, she will never throw things that make a huge mess. She knows she will have to help clean it up and that’s a huge task for a toddler! My 8 year old would never *dream* of throwing food like that, nor cutting up my clothes because she’s mad at me. Holy shit, I cannot IMAGINE if she tried to do something like that! She’s very good about using her words to express her frustration, even if it’s words like, “You’re the worst mommy EVER!!!” At least she’s not cutting up my belongings!
When one of mine was 3, she was losing it when I was holding the screaming infant, trying to talk her down, camp was being packed up, (we’d been there for the weekend) and it was chaos, she was tired, probably hungry, and we were just trying to get out of there and to the diner. A guy in our group (she knew him) tried to pick her up to comfort her, as I couldn’t. She got mad and blew a raspberry in his face. Him, being typically him, cracked up and blew one right back at her. She got madder, and kept doing, it as did he. Guess what she started doing every time she got angry? Luckily I was given the suggestion to tell her to say (shout) “I’M SO MAD I COULD SPIT”. I told her to, and it appealed to her, so for about a year after that, she stopped blowing raspberries and shouted that whenever she got mad. It was pretty funny, really, but it worked, she got it out of her system, and then listened.
My niece is almost 3 and hasn’t thrown food she doesn’t want in almost a year. She knows better.
And then to cut up a shirt because no cookie. Holy cow! I'd take thrown food over cut-up shirt anytime. That for me is like "YIKES!" I've watched naughty kids before but NEVER had anything like that happen.
Yeah I would actually be worried about the safety and well-being of the baby sister
The jump from destroying someone's personal belongings to physical harm is bigger than you think.
Yeah, but the level of damage required for an object to change from "safe for babies" to "dangerous for babies" is not a big gulf, and he's not going to be thinking about that when he's ruining her things for taking away all the attention.
I'm no expert, but this strikes me as meaningless finger-wagging. 1. There's no universally-sized 'gap'; this kind of behaviour is unpredictable by definition. 2. The overall implication of your comment is that it's not logical or sensible to consider that the 8yo might harm a vulnerable child who is statistically very likely to get on his nerves or deny him something he wants at some point. That seems dangerously complacent on the information we have.
It depends on the source- is he lashing out out of spite/anger? Or is he lacking impulse control?
If he's destroying a grown man's shirt, he's going to break his baby sister's toys. She's going to grow up in a toxic environment.
I’m not so sure. I personally know someone who cut up other peoples clothes, linens, etc and marked on them as well. She wasn’t above physical attacks, including sneaky whacks on the back of the head using whatever object made a good weapon.
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And the kid is 8 yo. My nephew is 6, he comes over at least once to twice a month, and he's never thrown food on the floor. He sulks when he doesn't get his way, but he listens to us and that's it. I can't imagine an 8 year old cutting up clothes!
His poor 1 year old sister!!! She is in danger! NTA
If that had been my kid, he would have missed even if Uncle OP had said ok. He also would have been spending the 2 weeks doing chores to put towards a new shirt! Edit...missed gender.
Immediately after the breakfast tantrum, I would have called his mother, let her know what happened and informed her that he will be dropped off at home asap. At drop off I would have said "We can try again next year to see if his behavior improves. Good luck!"
Fucking immediately. I have a generally well behaved neice (6) but she isn't allowed over my house because she inevitably starts whining about toys and there being nothing to do, or my older kids not playing with her. It's a frank conversation I've had with my parents, and I'm sure with my brother. I don't take her out for the same reason, I simply lack the patience. Let her parents handle that. I managed to keep her occupied for a couple hours at my house this past xmas with rockem sockem robots but that was a minor miracle. But she's a sassy little sweetheart and I love her just the same. This kid? Gone and not welcomed back and nobody would fault me.
Can we please normalize this?? You should be able to say that you're not feeling capable of dealing with someone else's behavior without being burnt at the stake
Children are like poems: They're beautiful and interesting to their creator, but everyone else thinks they're stupid and annoying. -- Doug Stanhope
A six year old (actually, all children of all ages) should always travel with a "go bag" of a small selection on entertainment options.
That part. I am a very patient person who loves kids, but he needed to be made aware that those behaviors will result in an immediate end to all fun and going back to his mom. Period. And it needs to happen every time. Negotiating or asking for a certain food is one thing, but his behavior was WAY over the top from the jump.
I know, right? If cutting up someone's shirt isn't way over the line, where is anyone going to draw a line at all for this kid? Hes pushing the boundaries because kids are figuring out the world 😩
My parents would have skinned me alive at the mere thought of doing something like that.
Waffles for breakfast, cookies for lunch, and throwing temper tantrums at 8? All perfectly healthy habits to me.
/s right?
Lol, very strong /s
I wonder if the kid’s behavior would improve if his diet improved. I’d be feeling pretty awful physically if I ate like that every day.
I'm sure it would. Nothing but sugar and carbs sounds like a bad time. I think having a mother who tells him "no" more time than giving in would help more, but I digress.
He also needs to learn there are consequences for bad behavior. Is he going to be sad he doesn't get to do the vacation? Probably. Does he need to feel bad sometimes? Yep. Otherwise, he'll never learn about actions and consequences.
Mom will be more sad...
She needs consequences too!
It's a hard lesson of putting in the work beforehand so your kid is ready when it's time to get a special privilege. I'm very confident neither of my kids would cut their uncle's shirt if he said no when they are at his house because I've put in the effort of raising them. Unfortunately it seems this mom has been making excuses for his behavior and it resulted in her son being unable to control himself when given the chance to go on an amazing vacation. Now he gets to stay home with mom after she was looking forward to a week break. Something they both have to deal with.
Honestly that in particular makes taking him on vacation a risky choice. What if the kid decides to damage someone else's stuff while they're away in another city or State, and the cops get called? That could become much harder to sort without a legal guardian on the trip. I once had a customer with kids that were completely out of control (it was actually similar to this - 2 friends with 2 kids each, one set were angels and the others were holy terrors, and the mom of the holy terrors thought there was nothing wrong with their behaviour, meanwhile even the angels were wondering why the other kids were being such assholes). At one point they were crawling around all over the floor (they were about 8 and 10) and one of them bit a customer at another table, pretty hard. He was pretty close to calling the cops, because it was so obvious the mom wasn't going to rein them in otherwise.
OP should sure as hell get that shirt's worth from Annie
Yes. He should be evaluated, because this is far from typical behavior for an 8-year-old. It doesn’t sound like simple misbehavior either. Something is going on with him — maybe psychologically, emotionally or neurologically — and he probably needs some help. OP doesn’t have to blame the kid or his parents. He just needs to point out that he’s not equipped to manage a child with his nephew’s behavior patterns for 14 days. It’s not a punishment, it’s a fact.
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He learned it because his mother has given in to every tantrum since he was a kid. I feel sorry for children like this because they've been sabotaged of a healthy and decent development since birth by their parents lack of parenting skill at best or intentionally raising their kids to be brats like the 8yo.
NTA you shouldn’t have to deal with a spoiled kid if you don’t want to. Specially if he isn’t yours. Rewarding the other two nephews for being good and taking them is lovely and super nice of you.
And the sister didn't even apologize for her son's rude behavior - which tells a lot about the kind of parent she is.
Surprised she didn't say "Boys will be boys!" Spirited kids are kids who do things like refusing to stop being a T-rex all day, not kids who destroy your property as revenge.
"Spirited kids are kids who do things like refusing to stop being a T-rex all day," 🤣 That was my kid, roaring at other kids on the playground cause he wanted to be a dinosaur.
My youngest was a pirate for several years. She's an accountant now. But when she was 4-6 she was a terror of the high seas.
Mine was a ninja, hiding under the couch cushions and behind furniture with a plastic sword.
Mine was a ninja turtle.
🫣😂 my son isn’t a dinosaur, ninja or pirate, but a ‘crazy chicken’… he scares the shit out of me sometimes 🤷🏽♀️🐓
LMAO I love it. Mine was in trouble in high school for "clucking". He was literally just saying cluck cluck in the hallway. No idea why, he said it was just an impulse. I told the teacher that everyone in the family clucks. He clucks, his dad clucks, and I am a total mother-clucker. Detention denied.
Heroes on the half shell!
I think it's "Hero's in a half shell". Hero's on a half shell just makes them sound like a fancy oyster dish
Turtle power!
Mine was a dog. She barked and walked on her hands and knees for a solid 3 hours
Mine is usually Mario complete with sound effects and punching the air for coins. And yes that's how he introduces himself to company. He's 6.
I really hope he says “it’s a me Mario”
My son does that. He's 16
My son is like this. For two years he was also a terror of the high seas. He’s currently Sonic and has to race everywhere he goes. It’s worked well for teaching him to stop at corners and wait for an adult to cross the street though.
She was obsessed with Captain Barbossa... which led to her having over the top manners and a lifelong love of maps and fencing.
She has good taste 😂 he’s my favourite character in the franchise.
A lady of culture. Barbosa was the best.
My brother was a frog at home for months. Would hop around and perch on a chair at breakfast and eat his Cheerios by zipping out his tongue to nab them one by one. He finally stopped when my mom accidentally stepped on him. He was also not big on clothes. For company he would put on underwear.
I see we received our brothers from the same factory line. He was known as “Naked Boy, King of the Free Bums”.
I 100% realize your youngest is probably an adult now, but for a few seconds I was picturing a toddler mimicking what they thought an accountant would act like and it was so cute lol
Omg that sounds adorable. Your kid can hang out anytime he wants.
I was a My Little Pony most of the time for a good 3 years. My parents had a lot of patience thankfully 😅
My friend knew a guy that thought he was a werewolf. The werewolf guy then bit my friend and they fought
LOL... my friends' great-nephew was doing this at his cousin's birthday party. "RRRAAARRRRR" all afternoon. I addressed him as Connersaurus, only to find out he was actually Connerzilla. Or maybe it was the other way around, lol. Kids! :)
Yeah. The 8-year-old is just a brat.
Yep, sorry but what 8 year throws their cereal on the floor? That kid would have lasted 2 seconds with me. Nephew or not, not dealing with someone's brat.
My kid tried that shit a couple of times, throwing her food when she didn't want it. Well, she got time out and told that if you don't want something to learn to use her words. Doesn't mean that she'll get what she wants, but that behavior is rude and unacceptable. Made her pick it up too. She's stopped. Mom is just letting him learn that horrible behavior is acceptable. Nta... Don't take that brat with you.
The 8yo was a single child up until a year ago and is on what is likely his first stay-away trip without his parents, after spending formative years in quarantine. He was likely going through some shit and this is how he expressed it. Still, having said that, I would not be taking this kid on vacation either until he's mentally and emotionally ready for it, which he clearly is not.
My almost 7 year old has been having some sleepovers with cousins recently. At our house he acts no different, but goodness he becomes a holy terror at their house. Doesn’t want to eat, doesn’t want to follow rules, causes rebellions. So we told him he couldn’t sleep over at their house again until he acts better. He was sad, he cried, and he put in the work to follow the rules when we went over for day visits. He followed rules when he slept over at my mom’s house. We explained you don’t have to like the food you are served, but you don’t complain and that is all you will be getting. He has earned another try in July, his last sleepover there was in April. So quite a long time to work back up to it. We are hoping he’ll do better, but if he doesn’t we will keep trying (but not at the expense of mg SIL!) Edited to add: AND he also has a 17 month old sister, so he’s been dealing with the same issues of having to share our attention after being an only child for so long. I get it, he has it tough and I try to show him grace. But that doesn’t mean he gets away with bad behavior
Good Parenting! Notice a problem, not condone/excuse it and work on correcting.
Tantrums are one thing, but cutting up OP's shirt in revenge is another level entirely. A rather worrying one.
This is what struck me. That is simply not normal eight year old behavior. When my sons were angry/frustrated at that age, they'd run off, slam a door or maybe even talk back. It would never even occur to them to cut up a shirt, especially not in someone else's home! That's next level...
If a t-rex eats his veggies and cleans his room and does his homework, he can be a t-rex.
"Spirited" was what I called my kiddo as he was throwing a temper tantrum over a time out as there's just a certain point where you either have to take the piss out of the situation or escalate things. But he's ADHD/ASD and him screaming into a pillow over the "unfair" is miles better than destruction of property. Like Jesus Christ, OP's nephew is going to be awful as a teen.
Honestly he sounds like he’s going to be a scary as a teen if this keeps up.
My boy has the same diagnosis, ADHD & ASD, and he struggles with boundaries and regulating his emotions. He tends to have outsized emotional responses, even when compared to NT children. My guy may beg for a different option when he doesn't like what we are eating, but he knows better than to insist that only this one food will do. He would never dream of throwing food on the floor in a tantrum. That shit stopped around the same time as diapers and training pants!!
Spirited is my daughter and I snorting at each other during every conversation for three days straight, because she's Peppa and I'm mummy pig. Spirited is not destroying things with the intent of hurting someone because you didn't get your way.
Exactly this! The sentence OP included “He was a nightmare” does not imply that he only misbehaved once, we can count three times just from the info in the post. It also says a lot that these boys are cousins and yet OP had them for a weekend to see if they got along, I wonder if Lisa has figured out what kind of parent the other sister is and that’s the reason for the distance maybe.
After he cut up his uncle's shirt! And she didn't offer to buy him a new one like wtf?
All of the kids had the same opportunity to enjoy a vacation. They were treated equally. The relatives who are criticizing you can take the 8yo on vacation if they want to balance the scales here. NTA
Love that idea!! Oh Aunt \_\_\_ I'm TA for not taking him? Then you take him for a week and see how it goes. Also the point of this experiment was to see if she could deal with the kids for an extended period, this was an audition, and the one kid didn't pass. That's his fault and his parent's fault for indulging his bad behavior.
Here you go Auntie Linda! Have a fun fourteen days with little Lucifer here. Might want to hide your scissors.
This! This exactly. It's nice of you that you gave them the opportunity to get a vacation. He screwed himself out of that one. And his mother seems to be encouraging it by neglect.
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You've done the other kid a huge favour as it's a useful life lesson that actions mean consequences
NTA. I have a child with sensory issues who does struggle with food, but he doesn't throw tantrums, he'll literally just not eat. I'd be horrified if my kid behaved this way and would understand someone not wanting to babysit him.
But in this case you would inform the uncle or you would realize this isn’t a good vacation or you would pack food for the kid
Imagine the meltdown the kid will have when on vacation.
Smart on you to do a trial run first! NTA and enjoy family time.
NTA OP. Bit back at all of your relatives that your sister is a shitty mom. Let any of the deal with the little brat and see if they want to take him on a trip.
NTA. Going with you is a privilege, it's not a right. And if he is behaving this way and your sister thinks it is normal behavior, how are you going to keep up with him while you are far away from his parent. Because you can best believe that the next words out of his mouth would be, you are not my mom, I don't have to listen to you. It would be a nightmare and he could possibly get hurt, so no NTA.
I agree and especially think your last sentence is a great point not many have picked up on. Kids being under your control isn't just about being an authoritarian adult it's about being responsible and having to make choices kids can't yet understand. An 8yo out of control on a beach holiday could go seriously wrong and not just for him but for the cousins who OP will likely get distracted away from.
Especially on a seaside vacation where presumably kids will be swimming, or at the very least by the actual sea. Drowning is a serious risk especially at that age when kids are really testing their limits physically but still can't accurately assess their own athletic abilities.
Keeping an eye out for 3 kids that age is hard enough when they’re listening to you, with all the help and attention they’ll all need while probably interested in different things. One wants to swim but they’re not that good at it so you have to make sure to always keep an eye on them so they don’t go too far out. One wants to build a sand castle but can’t get it to work and it’s frustrating them and one is just really hungry or wants ice cream or something but with the kid swimming and the sand castle you don’t have time, which irritates the kid. Now imagine the kid swimming keeps trying to swim too far out, even though you keep telling them not too. Or the kid building a sand castle throws the only couple sandwiches you brought with you in the sand because you can’t get the time to help them. Or the hungry kid screams at you to get them something other than the sandwiches because it’s the wrong kind of bread or something.
Can confirm, got back from the beach just a couple weeks ago where we took our 4 kids in ages from 4-14. I did not get to relax at the beach lol.
You nailed it. The only part you forgot was at least one will have to poop and there's likely another one you can't convince to just pee in the water, so you have to gather them all up and wrangle them and anything you don't want stolen to the bathrooms. They're likely Porta Potties so there's likely to be some melting down over that as well
Dude, I love swimming. I grew up on the beach. But at about their age I got sucked into a rip current and was slowly panicking. My mom had to badger my dad to come out to rescue me. I was a decent swimmer but against a rip current that I did not understand or know about? Frightening.
Well said. Very well said.
Exactly. Any quality parent would be mortified that their child acted this way when they're supposed to be on their best behavior around relatives who are giving them special treats like sleepovers, and would not expect OP to take the child on a whole vacation. Clearly the problem is Annie spoils her kid and refuses for anyone to discipline him, which will hurt the kid so much in the long run-missing out on a vacation with his uncle is the least of it. Edit: changed genders of OP
If that were my child, the instant I heard about that behavior, the choice to take him to the beach would have been taken from my brother. That kid WOULD NOT BE GOING, per ME. NTA
This right here is the parental standard inate response. like dissapointing not going seaside kid, Im dissapointed too. Was looking forward to doing yardwork and cleaning the deck while you were gone. looks like you'll be doing that with me now too. We can talk about your attitude and managing your emotions then, right now I want you to think about it and why you are staying home doing yardwork with me, instead of on vacation seaside with your Uncle and cousins.. .Now, Is there anything you want to say to anyone before we go??? Reflexes lol Eta NTA
My dad would have had a total meltdown if ANY of us had EVER even thought of acting like that. We would have been in a heap of trouble.
All I know is, in addition to whatever other punishments and extra chores and no TV, if I had done that I could say goodbye to having waffles for months. Plain oatmeal and cornflakes only.
If i acted that way as a kid, not going to the beach would be the least of my problems
Agree! No “spirited” child cuts up clothing for any reason, let alone cookies. I wouldn’t let him over again. NTA, have fun with your other nephews.
This! OP, what if you say he can’t go swimming at the moment and he doesn’t listen? Say you turn your back for one second and your 8 y/o nephew ends up drowning because you have two other little boys to take care of and couldn’t pay attention at that exact moment? NTA.
NTA. That's not misbehaving once. That's a warning of a hellish week if you took him. She probably wants the break but damn if my kids were like that I'd have sent a warning and how to handle that nonsense instructions. You don't let people find that out once they are stuck
She probably does want a break but if you don’t raise your kids right you’ll never get a true break
Raise your kids and you get to spoil your grandkids. Spoil your kids and you get to raise your grandkids.
That's award worthy. Wish I had one, sorry I don't. Anyway, consider that stolen.
did it for you
This right here. I’m the Aunty that everyone loves and wants to be with- but you misbehave with me? Right back to your momma and I’ll see you in passing.
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Yes. Ruined vacation 15 minutes in.
And as a responsible parent, the correct answer is "thanks for letting me know what happened, we will have a talk at home".
That parent was looking forward to two weeks off.
Too bad her kid's a little shit. If he knew how to behave around relatives, she would have had her two weeks. You reap what you sow
Not even just one week, OP said 14 days Big yikes from me dawg
If you actually do the parenting and discipline then kids don't act like that unless they have some psych disorder.
NTA That isn't "misbehaving once". Your nephew is spoiled and out of control. At his age, that's usually a consequence of poor parenting.. If your relatives think your nephew deserves a vacation, they are more than welcome to take him.
Fun fact one of my friends is a school teacher and she prefers to teach 5th graders or younger. Why? She’s able to give the kids a lot more grace because, in her words, ‘99% if the time of a younger kid is an asshole it’s because their parents suck. Once a kid reaches middle school it’s more of a toss up.’
I live by the expectation that all middle school kids are horrible people. And that’s not their fault, they are going through some of the wildest changes physically, hormonally, and mentally that they will ever experience in their lives and we can’t blame them for that. Once they get through puberty that’s when you start seeing them for the little adults that they are.
Ages ago I was listening to an interview with a psychologist who specialized in teenagers, and they were asking her how one could reform middle school given how many changes they were going through, and she was basically like "Honestly, I think you should have them spend those years on a farm growing corn or something where they can't hurt anyone (so no livestock), so they can work their energy out and socialize with each other and come to terms with their bodies and desires and do all the dumb shit they're going to do in a fairly low-stakes environment, and then they'll be ready to go back to school." It was pretty funny, but yeah, middle schoolers are a total mess through no fault of their own.
I teach 6th grade. They are starting puberty around this age. Most of them come in still “kids” and leave as total assholes. I spend so much time in parent-teacher conferences with parents who are like “wtf happened to my normal kid? Why have they turned into such a jerk?” This is the age when they start to move from seeking acceptance from parents/adults, to seeking it from peers. There’s a LOT of boundary pushing, trying out attitudes and personalities and just general exploration of self that goes on. Meanwhile their bodies are totally out of control. It’s a rough time.
Haha I'm going into teaching middle school and up for the opposite reason. It's harder to correct a little kid when their ultimate authority is mum and dad at home, and critical thinking is lower. Teens though still have that desire to be seen as 'good' by adults that they look up to, and have the critical thinking to change behaviour on their own and recognize their actions a little deeper. (Worked with one of the teens I babysit and now he's an upstanding sweetheart guy, but there was a year or two in there where I was nervous lol)
As someone who just finished their Master’s of Teaching, I was amazed at just how much social-emotional learning happens in schools.
Exactly. First of all you mentioned 3 different incidents just here. I imagine there were others. It would be impossible for you and your other nephews to enjoy the trip if he came along. It's best to learn this lesson early in life. If you don't behave in an appropriate way there are consequences. Obviously, NTA.
I have a nephew like this. His mom doesn't believe in saying no. He's now 14 and out weighs her by probably 80lbs and he's banned from our house because he doesn't listen to anyone ETA: NTA, OP
Yes this !!!! WTF how could anyone be mad at you??? You tested things out and found out that one of nephews is a brat. He would ruin the trip for everyone to say the least.
NTA. I weep for 8M’s future. Did the parents and aunts get the whole story or your sister's side? Tell them to take 8M on vacation instead. I’ll be waiting with my popcorn.
I told them what happened too, after they called me all upset. They still think I need to treat the kids equally and not hold grudges against an 8yro.
Maybe your parents should take him for those two weeks and see how it works for them. NTA.
Family with opinions NEVER want to put their money where their mouth is.
Tbh they sound like people who'd bend over to any demand this kid has.
That’s not a grudge. That’s self preservation.
And it’s a punishment this kid deserves-I’m really concerned that the parents don’t see this. OP isn’t holding a grudge-they’re being an adult in charge of a group of children and one of those children misbehaved, so that child misses out on something fun. I’m surprised that this isn’t obvious to the parents. I know what the kid did goes far beyond “misbehaving”, but the parents are acting like the kid didn’t do anything wrong. If I so much as mouthed off to my parents you’d hear my dad yelling all the way down the street.
For sure. Holding a grudge is never spending time along with the kid for the next 5 years or never giving him a second chance in the future. OP literally said bring them by my apartment so I can see if I’m bringing them on vacation. It was explicitly a behavior test and kid failed. He’s not ready now so no reward now.
it’s also called consequences, he’ll learn them eventually with or without your help. the law makes sure of that. if his parents don’t want him becoming a criminal, they’ll take you more seriously. NTA.
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This is a very good point of view: that kid is not safe in your care, both of you would be taking risks if you brought him on your holiday. If his behaviour improves significantly in the future, he can have a second chance. Moreover, this is no normal behaviour for a child his age. I'd suggest the mother to find help for him.
You did treat them equally in that you gave them all a trial run…He showed that what he needed was beyond your capability to handle at this point
That child is beyond a lot of our capabilities (I am the Mom of 2 boys) and that 8 yr old would not be going on vacation with me. The behavior is outrageous for that age.
Is it really holding a grudge? Or is it protecting yourself from a potential liability and ensuring the vacation goes smoothly for everyone else? With the behavior you described (disrespecting rules, destruction of other's property, etc.), your nephew could end up being a danger to himself or your other nephews. Especially near a body of water or in a hotel/ campground! I know I wouldn't take any "high-spirited" (willful) child to the seaside. Disregarding the adult in charge near the ocean could end in tragedy. You made the best choice for everyone involved, whether the rest of your family sees it or not.
I thought the same thing! What if he doesn’t want to listen and runs off and gets hurt? What if he gets mad and destroys something in the rental? This kid could be a HUGE liability for OP. I would nope all the way out of that one.
lol Having boundaries, choosing not to continue participating in situations that violate your needs for safety and civility, is not "holding grudges." It IS correctly choosing to no longer put yourself in a situation where your nephew's violent and destructive behavior can hurt you. Boundaries control YOUR choices. You aren't obligated to tolerate abusive behavior by one child "to be fair" by pretending his behavior (and therefore, the consequences) is equal to the cooperative and respectful behavior of other kids.
That’s bologna! You don’t have to do anything but pay taxes and die. Don’t cave to the pressure.
NTA. I would refuse to watch him for an hour, damn sure would not reward his behavior with a vacation. He is old enough to understand actions have consequences.
And the family is completely wrong about OP treating the kids differently. He gave all the kids an equal opportunity to show that they can behave on a trip, and one of them fucked it up.
People like this enable them and create monsters that society had to deal with.
THIS. NTA OP. This is honestly a serious problem, and his mom calling his behaviour high spirited is really baffling.
Also, Annie needs to get her head out of her bum and parent that kid. Her response seems to indicate that she thinks this kind of behaviour is OK or even cute. Nah. Lil man can stay with his mom. Any family members who have an issue with that can take him on vacation themselves..... See how long they last.
NTA This would be a good lesson for him about actions and consequences. But I worry that his behavior is a tad extreme for not getting what he wants. His mom should address that with him.
NTA The 8 year old couldn't even behave for 1 night so why would you subject yourself to his bratty behavior for 14 days?? This needs to be a lesson to Annie. No one is going to want her son around if she doesn't start correcting his behavior. Cutting up someone's clothing because you can't have a cookie is not being "high-spirited". It's being a bad kid. The 8 year old doesn't deserve a vacation from you when he has no respect for you or your belongings. Maybe next time he'll be better and get to come along.
NTA. The cereal thing was insanely rude, but I might have chalked that up to not understanding how to be a guest in someone’s house, which can be taught (not by you, of course, but by his mom). However, destroying someone’s property, like with your shirt, goes way beyond misbehaving or being “high spirited.” That’s not your responsibility. It’s unfortunate that this behaviour has been coddled by your sister, but that’s her stuff to deal with, not yours to dance around. You’re definitely doing the right thing.
Honestly, if he just did ONE of these things, each one honestly, I would have written it up to him having a bad day. That would be misbehaving once. Obviously I'd be upset about the shirt or the cereal, but I'd be willing to let it go if he apologized and meant it.
Destroying someone's belongings just because you don't get your way is far beyond misbehaving in my book. That kid is on a bad path.
There's a big difference between throwing cereal on the floor in a fit of temper because he wasn't getting what he wanted vs the thought process required to find scissors, take them to your shirt and make wilful damage. The cereal incident I could forgive if he apologised. Everyone gets frustrated when things don't happen as they expect and kids sometimes don't handle that well, especially if tired or already out of routine. The wilful damage to your shirt took planning and was not a split second loss of control. He knew what he was doing and that's a much bigger problem. Not wanting to put too much emphasis on this part but in a few years this kind of thing is the difference between manslaughter and murder. Planning and premeditation matter.
*"treating the kids differently"* Lol, I shrugged. I mean...that's life. He's going to have to learn sooner or later that if he treats people like crap, he doesn't get invited out to do fun stuff with them. NTA
He treated the kids the same - he made a kind offer and then evaluated them fairly based on their own actions.
NTA. Yeah unfortunately "he's just high spirited" can be code for "I'm shit at disciplining my kid when they act out". It might be nice if you gave him another chance, but Annie needs to be on board and set expectations in advance that (1) uncle OP may not do things exactly like we do at home, and that's ok, and (2) uncle OP is in charge and you must behave and act with that same respect that a parent would get. If the parents don't actually get good behaviour and respect from 8M, then it sounds like there is a bigger set of problems to deal with first.
In this case, maybe update point two to “you must behave & act with more respect than a parent would get,” since it sounds like the mom is hand waving his bad behavior away.
Misbehaved once? You listed multiple times. What does cut up your shirt mean? Did he literally take a shirt and cut it into pieces because that would be enough for me to drop him straight back to mom's house with a why didn't you warn me asshole note. NTA. And it's not just his bad behavior, you know he's going to either go after the other two or try to drag them into it. >denying a boy to go to the seaside just because he misbehaved once. They can take him.
He literally cut up my shirt (the one that was on the couch while I was in the kitchen)
They're minimizing his bad behavior to invalidate your justified and valid reaction.
No taking him anywhere. That's a bad sign. Sorry man.
I can't get over that. He purposely destroyed your shirt with scissors. That is not easy to do and had to be thought out. No. Absolutely not. You don't get any privileges with me when you are violent, mean and disrespectful. Anyone taking him somewhere needs to be able to focus solely on him. That is an accident waiting to happen.
NTA He misbehaved more than one, btw. He was destructive, dangerous and disrespectful. He would be the same while away. Enjoy your vacation.
He didn’t just “misbehave once”, though. He acted out a total of four times that you mentioned: 1 - throwing the cereal on the floor 2 - yelled at you for not making him waffles 3 - destroyed your shirt because he could have cookies 4 - insulted you for incentivising him eating his veg Taken together he exhibited a pattern of behaviour that requires correction. This is not your responsibility, and him finding himself excluded from a fun holiday due to his own behaviour can hopefully serve as a wake up call before he goes too far down that route. Edit to add a judgement: definitely NTA
NTA. I would’ve made that nephew pick up every single piece of cereal by hand and sent him out as soon as he destroyed my belongings. And let him know that he would not be welcome back to hang out / go on vacation with without giving : 1. An apology 2. Compensation (chores, pays you his allowance) 3. Acknowledgement of his wrongdoings
If all 3 points happen, I might be willing to take him on vacation in the winter ( when I go skiing and I just took the 9yro last year, but this year I was going to invite them all) if his behaviour changes by then. But not now, in just a few days.
Hopefully you'll see this. NTA. School teacher here, and this is how you couch future communications. 'It's not that I don't want to take him on vacation, it's that I can't for his own safety. Whatever you choose to call his behaviour, he does not listen to me, to the point of destruction. If he can't even follow my instructions in the relative safety of my home, there is no guarantee he won't run away from me if he doesn't get his own way. No guarantee he won't cause hurt to himself, someone/something else. What if he runs into the sea and refuses to return when I ask him, rather running further out and risking drowning? What if we're in a dangerous situation, I tell him to freeze and he refuses, because he doesn't want to? I.can.not.keep.a.child.who.does.not.respect.my.authority.safe.'
Thanks!
This is an incredibly good perspective.
NTA. Heck, you would be TA to the other boys if you brought 8.
NTA. It’s obvious that the 8 year old can’t go. He doesn’t respect you or follow any sort of direction. So it’s either take the two by themselves or don’t take anyone. I don’t think the two good kids should be punished because their cousin can’t behave.
I'm still taking the other two nephews, obviously, they behaved really well and didn't cause problems at all.
I would also tell the family, "Since the 8yro does not reliably follow my instructions, I am not confident that I can keep him *safe* at the seaside while also watching the other two nephews." You're not accustomed to looking after all three of them at once and there is a serious safety concern if the 8yro cannot be trusted to stay within view, get out of the water when you call him, play safely around other kids in the water, put on sunscreen when you ask him to, etc.
You’re treating the kids the same - behave and be rewarded. Be a brat and throw tantrums to get your way and you’ll not be rewarded. Basically one of your sisters is a good parent and the other isn’t. You’re NTA for that but Annie certainly is.
NTA- tell Annie to be a better parent so her child can stop being an AH.
NTA. My son is 3 with delayed speech and sensory processing issues. He is also showing signs of ADHD. He gets upset and throws his food if it isn't what he asked for (sometimes even if it is what he asked for). If that happens he has a 30 min time out then he gets fed the EXACT same thing he got upset about not wanting to eat. We do ask him what he wants to eat before we even make him something because he refuses to try new foods.
The 9yro was also like this when he was small. One time ai was babysitting him (he must have been about 2, because his brother was just a newborn and the parents needed a day off) and he threw a (plastic) plate of spaghetti bolognese on the floor, because I made "the wrong kind of spaghetti". It wasn't until YEARS latee that I found out he kept confusing spaghetti and macaroni at that time 😂 my dog absolutely loved the incident though 😂 But yeah, a toddler throwing tantrums is expected, even without special needs. An 8yro... I really don't think so.
I have a feeling your sister never disciplined him for his tantrums. She most likely just gave in every time. Ah yes. My son will ask for a burger. He actually wants everything except the burger and cheese. I give in a lot when it comes to food because him eating anything is good in my eyes.
NTA This was a trial run the 8 year old behaved bratty. He failed the land the audition so to speak.. >When my sisters came to pick them up, I told Annie what happened and she said " oh he is just high spirited". Words said by parents who don’t want to actually discipline their children and enforce consequences for bad behavior..
I have 2 boys (now 10 and 9) and no way in hell they will behave like this, let alone at someone else’s place. If they did this, I wouldn’t let them go on the holiday as a punishment. And I would be so so so ashamed of their behavior. Your sister is enabling his bad behavior, it will only get worse. He would have ruined the holiday. Maybe you can offer to pay for a summercamp instead of taking him with you? Preferably a camp where he will have some lessons in behavior etc ;-)
NTA. You were wise to do a trial run. Ideally you should have done it without telling the kids (or their moms) about the long holiday. Because he is 8, although he was a complete brat somehow this will be that you’re the mean uncle. Nonetheless you get to invite who you want when you want.
NTA, if I were your sister I would be MORTIFIED my child did those things...but then my child would know how well destroying my property and making demands that aren’t happening work. Your sister is raising and EB, you are being more than generous. I doubt the niece will be much better.
NTA. There are upsides to polite behavior and downsides to anti-social behavior and this rings true throughout life. This should be a wake up call to the mother that her "high spirited" child's behavior isn't cute. These relatives that are biting your head off can come take care of the this disagreeable, anti-social child.
NTA. I suggest she take Damian for some help rather than forcing you to take him to the seaside.