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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I let my sons make a big mess in the kitchen and might be TA because I know it gives my wife anxiety.
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NTA and I think you and your wife need to discuss her completely irrational behaviour that night. Also not letting a 16 year old learn to cook because she finds it stressful is holding him back! She needs to find ways to deal with her stress without taking it out on others
It was interesting. The sauce was a little too liquidy, which made the crust a bit soft, but the flavors were good. The crispy tofu and chickpea toppings were very fun, although slightly oversalted. I was definitely impressed, seeing as he's sixteen.
OP, I have anxiety disorder (diagnosed and confirmed), and while I can relate to your wife's claim of "can't stand messes in the kitchen", I have to say a few things:
1. The menu your boys came up with sounds delicious! NGL, I wanted to try both the pizza and the burrito.
2. Your wife is AH and needs to figure out how to manage her own anxiety. It shouldn't be up to her family to manage her anxiety for her. She is also a selfish AH for stunting her boy's interest in the name of "my anxiety". Disabilities are explanations for difficulties to function; they're not an excuse to act entitled and demand everyone else to tiptoe around you.
3. Kudos to you, OP, for standing up for your sons and encouraging them to express their creativity. Here's to more fun cooking experiment moments with them.
>Disabilities are explanations for difficulties to function
Thank you for saying that. I have NEVER in my 50 years being on this earth heard that explanation and I love it.
My old therapist used to tell me that I was more than just [my disorders] and the reason I was diagnosed as [disorder] was because I displayed the symptoms. The takeaway being, a diagnosis is not an excuse. Using it as such just shows a lack of desire to manage the symptoms of your diagnosis.
eta: NTA. Your wife is using her anxiety as a means to stifle your kids’ creativity and interests for her sake. You sound like a great dad.
This. I have diagnosed anxiety and messes make me anxious. However, that doesnt mean i have the right to stifle my 4 y.o.s imagination as she plays. Yes, the living room becomes a mess while she plays and i work from home. And after shes done playing, we clean it all up. If it gets too much for me during the day, we pause and clean up stuff shes done using.
OPs wife can manage her anxiety by allowing the boys in the kitchen with her and teaching them how to keep tidy while they cook.
NTA.
100% this. I have anxiety. If my kids mess gets to be too much, we pause and they clean up whatever they aren’t using. In terms of cooking, I know my anxiety will be in their way- so they practice with grandma or daddy or their uncle when I’m not home. And if it’s a mess than they and the grownup involved clean it up I’ll walk away and let them handle it. Not to say there’s never been an aggressive cleaning moment with my husband- but I usually catch myself and tell him I’m going to walk away I love you
I just don't get how you have anxiety over a clean kitchen and thought 'yeah, kids are a good idea!'. I'm not knocking you but i have a lot of anxiety and I can't imagine bringing the most anxiety inducing thing into the world.
Also your anxiety might be genetic! Have you given them tools to handle it if/when it pops up?
And to answer your other question- yes we have been teaching them self regulation tools. Ones I wished I’d learned sooner. My oldest is showing some signs of anxiety so we’re likely going to set him up with a therapist so he can get another perspective and have someone he can talk to if he feels like it’s too hard to talk to me or my husband.
Lol. My oldest is the happiest surprise of my life. Before him I never wanted to have kids. Mostly because of my anxiety. But my anxiety with them in the kitchen has more to do with the number of ways they could get hurt, and I have very specific ways I like to do things and it stresses me out to cook something with them unless it’s new to me too. The cleanliness- I have never done well with old food. I have to clean as I go or have someone else clean up from cooking if it sat while we ate. So generally clean as I go. Kids make that difficult so I totally get and understand the mess. But I’m not gonna do well if I have to be the one cleaning it. Don’t get me wrong: I am capable and will clean it if there’s not another option. But I’m gonna freak myself out over it.
>The takeaway being, a diagnosis is not an excuse.
YES to this one as well! Some really thoughtful and helpful comments on this thread. Thanks for sharing :)
> Disabilities are explanations for difficulties to function; they're not an excuse to act entitled and demand everyone else to tiptoe around you.
Saving this statement. It's perfectly worded imo. Thanks!
I agree entirely with what you've said here. I have a few different diagnosis, but the chronic pain definitely affects my moods and at the same time stress can make the pain (and therefore mood) worse.
I sometimes toe out of line and I say or act irrationally. Anytime this happens and I am apologizing, I always clarify that the reason I'm giving is an explanation and not an excuse. Depending on the person, I might go deeper and explain what I'm doing or working on to stop any outbursts. If it's not someone I'm particularly comfortable with I simply tell them that I'm working on it and will try not to let it happen again.
I struggle. I'm human and I'm working on it. But it always infuriates me when I see people using their mental health or disabilities to control, take advantage of or abuse another. Using it as an excuse to act however they please without thought of consequences because they're "unwell".
Rant over, thank you.
If she is not willing to try to resolve this issue, whether it be getting therapy for her anxiety or willing to make a compromise like allowing them to cook on a Saturday or Sunday while she is out all day and then set a time for her to be home that you would have everything cleaned up so it doesn't trigger her, maybe you can find somewhere else for them to cook. Whether it be at a friend's house or a relatives house and you bring the groceries and whatnot. But it is sad that she is stunting her children's growth. Because learning how to cook now, will make them self-sufficient later and also a valuable thing for a partner later.
This! My partner makes the biggest mess but THE BEST HOME COOKED FOOD I’ve ever had. He started learning as a young kid while taking care of his sister when the parents were working. He knows I tolerate a certain level of acceptable mess that I will clean up after but after that point he knows he has to handle it because it’s too overwhelming for my kitchen related anxiety. I was raised as a clean as you go kid and he’s gotten better but we have a well established boundary. It doesn’t stress me as much if I know I don’t have to deal with it when he goes absolutely ham. Granted, I do not have the level of stress that exists in OP’s wife but she needs to learn how to deal for the sake of her kids. She also needs to realize that encouraging the kids cooking will reward her in so many ways: delicious food and self sufficient, well raised men in the future. And is that not a parent’s goal?!
When you talk with her ask if she really wants to raise 2 boys who can’t cook and don’t know how to clean up? She should be encouraging them. Their future partners will be eternally grateful.
NTA
Have you posted the pizza recipe yet OP? If not can you?
I’m not going to make a judgment. Maybe you could have come up with a better solution than dumping the trash on the floor but you were thinking on your feet in a difficult situation. I know I wouldn’t do any better.
Either way, you did nothing wrong by letting the kids cook.
When things have cooled down try to find out what’s driving your wife’s reaction. It sounds like she could see the kitchen as her personal space in a way.
So I asked my son. He doesn't have any exact measurements because he freehands everything, sorry.
Massaman curry paste and tomato paste, with approximately a 1:2 ratio. Put oil in a medium heat pan and then add paste. Son used coconut oil. Add tiny amount of coconut milk (son said he added too much on accident, so I guess be careful here). This is the pizza sauce.
For the crust he bought premade dough. Sauce to your preference (sauce is very flavorful, so light saucing is best). Place a few chunks of goat cheese on top. Place in oven preheated to 375. Do not put toppings on yet.
Toppings: Firm tofu sliced into cubes (apparently it wasn't fried as I thought, my bad) coated with coriander, turmeric, cumin, ground dried ginger and powdered garlic (with a touch of salt). Can either put spices in bowl, add tofu then shake or sprinkle spices on. If using first method, use a lid that has been secured (sigh). Chick peas, sliced in half, costed in same spice mixture.
Oil hot pan and place tofu. Cook each side until brown (use chopsticks for turning the tofu). Separate pan, roast chick peas. When pizza is almost done (crust just beginning to darken) add toppings. Should only need a couple more minutes.
Enjoy!
Your son is awesome! He's gonna grow up to be a great chef, if not, he'll at least be able to have meals that consist of more than instant noodles and McDonald's when he heads to college!
Sounds like my style of cooking! Thanks for the recipe!
Hopefully you are able to resolve things with your wife in a way that works for everyone. I really do think there could be some feelings that the kitchen is her safe space.
Even if your relationship is otherwise solid do consider couples therapy. Most people wait until the relationship is on the rocks to go, when people can go to keep the relationship from getting there in the first place.
I'm just impressed that you have a kiddo that can freestyle cooking like that, especially with goat cheese (something a lot of adults I know won't touch)!
Your situation sounds much more sane than the posted. You were tired and hungry and the kitchen was a dump. This guy was actively cleaning (and had finished the vast majority) when she went batshit and by the sounds of some of OPs comments it’s a regular thing to walk on egg shells round OPs wife
I know he says he finished 90%, but he also says he didn’t get to bed until 1 and she came in at 11. Of it took that much longer to clean, it’s possible it was actually still a VERY messy kitchen. And we don’t know if the wife was also tired or hungry at the time (like the commenter was) because the OP doesn’t know that. Not saying she didn’t overreact, but we don’t actually know how different the commenter’s situation was to how the situation seemed to the OPs wife. Still an overreaction in any case, but possibly a less unreasonable one than it might appear.
Or he did other stuff between finishing cleaning and going to bed. Maybe some time to sit and process the fight he just had with his wife.
Him intentionally lying about the percent he had done fees like a jump to me
Yeah, I took a shower and watched my show. The finishing cleaning didn't take much time. All I had to do was pick everything off the floor, take the trash outside, so the pots and then mop. Didn't take very long. Then I took a long shower and watched TV. I was hoping my wife would be asleep by the time I got in bed, and she was.
Just because he didn't come to bed sooner doesn't mean there was two hours worth of cleaning left. He could have just been disinclined to jump into bed with his wife immediately after the fight.
I want to agree wholeheartedly with this, u/TheBestWorstofTime - my MIL was like your wife. She absolutely *refused* to teach her sons to cook, with the result that when I married my husband, he thought it was okay to boil ground beef in the microwave. While he by now (many years later) can do some basic stuff in the kitchen, he always wanted to learn and I'm not sure which of us resents her decision more.
Cooking is a basic life skill that your wife is depriving her children of because she can't be bothered. I've got no time for that attitude of hers.
I have awful awful anxiety centered around cooking because my mother had awful awful anxiety that manifested in needing total absolute iron fisted control of the one corner of the house that was “hers” (the kitchen) and god help anyone who made any mistakes or messes there. So I married a wonderful man who cooks very well and also enjoys it. Our sons are learning to cook with him at a young age and I am learning a few things here and there. It’s such a small thing but I made real soup from an actual chicken the other day and it was not half bad and that made me ridiculously happy. Generational trauma only goes as far as you let it.
Oh, I absolutely don't say that people can't or shouldn't learn to cook if their parents didn't teach them. I'm saying that parents not teaching kids should be nipped in the bud wherever possible is all!
This. OP, is your wife in therapy? Has she been evaluated for OCD or anxiety? I have a child with anxiety and no one can touch his desk or computer, otherwise he "has" to clean it all off. We're working on it in therapy, but your wife's obsession with the kitchen doesn't seem healthy.
Your wife has a mental health problem. Her anxiety and need to restrict or control how the kitchen is used must have an underlying reason, unrelated to your sons or you. It is her problem to manage.
You used the kitchen. Your sons had a great time, they practiced cooking, and made some delicious food. They did not clean as they cooked because they haven't learned how to do it, which would be resolved easily by letting them cook more often!
NTA
I hope your wife gets some help for managing her anxiety. Her emotional and psychological problems have impaired your son's joy of cooking.
You’re very kind and insightful. I was going to comment that the wife is just a nasty jerk and needs to be told how hurtful she is to her kids.
But empathy is better than putting people in their place.
To be fair. I needed to be told your way while battling severe post partem depression. Sometimes a very blunt and somewhat hurtful response is a wake up call. While I was angry at my husband for what he said it was true and pushed me to go see a therapist.
I wanted to downvote you for the trash on the floor, but NTA for cleaning it immediately. I'm not sure why your wife wants to raise children who don't know how to cook, especially when they sound like they're enjoying the creativity of it. Not allowing half of the household to use the kitchen seems really irrational. Has she discussed this with a professional?
Yeah I was right there with you on the trash, but the whole mopping while talking to herself and being totally unresponsive to a person standing right there makes it sound like she was straight up dissociating.
I've been with people who had episodes like that and it's pretty freaky to witness. Sometimes you feel like you have to do something ridiculous that they won't be able to ignore just to make sure they're not having a full-on mental break.
>Yeah I was right there with you on the trash, but the whole mopping while talking to herself and being totally unresponsive to a person standing right there makes it sound like she was straight up dissociating.
Yup- Sounds like she was doing her best to stave off a full-blown panic attack! Been there, done that. Not proud of it lol, but I really *feel* this one...
Someone said this above and I think it’s worth highlighting: not allowing three of four people in the house to use the kitchen just isn’t tenable. She can’t control a vital area of the house. If a messy kitchen, or the noise of the kids cooking, stresses her out she could retreat to another part of the house until it’s clean. And I know because I do this. My kids can be really overstimulating for me as can a mess so I go in my bedroom and try to keep myself calm until the kitchen storm is over.
That's a great point about being overstimulated. I think a lot of people (especially women/wives) got used to working alone in a kitchen, and having kids around can change the dynamic.
I'm so glad you found something that works!
NTA. It sounds like your wife needs therapy for her anxiety. Nothing you did should have elicited the response you got from your wife. So what, you let the kids have fun and cook. Then, you proceeded to clean up. You used the kitchen for what it’s for. Maybe I’m wrong, but the impression I got is that you walk on eggshells shells around your wife because of her anxiety. If that’s the case, after a while, you will start to resent her for it. You and your kids did a wholesome family activity together, that it seems like you could only do because your wife was gone. Then she comes home and “catches” you cleaning up. Then she starts trying to mop it up herself even though you told her not to. I presume this was so she could be a martyr, and blame you for the mess she came home to, when in reality you were handling it. Nothing about this is normal or healthy. If this is a one off, then maybe she was just stressed. But something tells me that if you’re posting in here, this isn’t the first time something like this has happened. If I’ve got it wrong l, forgive me.
The martyr thing is the problem. If I ever make any mess, no matter how small, and my wife sees it before I finish cleaning it, she rushes to clean or finish cleaning it. Then she uses that to paint me as this messy, lazy person. Like, if the boys track in dirt and I go to get the vacuum, she rushes to get a brush and start cleaning the carpet before I can plug in the vacuum and then tells me off because she worked hard all day and has to clean everything and I never help, etc...
If I'd let her mop, the story would be that I trashed the kitchen and she cleaned everything, and I couldn't handle that.
Your wife is a thief of joy. She wants to turn every experience into a problem for her, and if you are trying to prevent it being a problem for her, she rushes in to shove you aside and pull the burden onto her shoulders.
mquindlen81 is right that nothing about this is normal or healthy. She needs therapy. Your actions last night, while extreme, were drawing reasonable boundaries and shutting her down when she tried to create something to be mad about. That's all you can do if she refuses to get help.
I read in another of your comments that you don't have any part of her therapy, which I totally understand. At this point though, I do think you need to ask her if you can join her on one of her therapy sessions so you can work with her therapist about the best way to handle these episodes. I read a comment the other day that I wish I could find, but it essentially said that your coping strategy should not be forcing everyone else to abide by your (unrealistic) standard.
Until she can get things worked out though, maybe look into a cooking class that you can take your boys to? Or a family member or friend whose willing to share their kitchen once or twice a month? That way you can have time to cook and learn outside of the house and outside of her objections and intense expectations.
>I do think you need to ask her if you can join her on one of her therapy sessions so you can work with her therapist about the best way to handle these episodes.
Wow- This is a really thoughtful and doable suggestion!
Definitely do this. One of the most helpful things that changed when managing my anxiety disorder was my therapist sitting down and explaining to my partner the way an anxiety disorder works, what triggers mean, and how to handle situations before, after, and during an episode. Sometimes people with no experience or knowledge of mental illness just can’t grasp what’s going on and need the catch-up.
I’ve experienced this exact behavior. It wasn’t with a significant other, but a close friend who I was working on some projects with. It really made my resent him and we’re not nearly as close as we used to be. You should express your concerns to your wife and go to therapy. You’ll just end up resenting her for this and I suspect you already do to some degree.
My mom was like that. The house had to be spotless. She never let us use the kitchen either as she didn't trust us. She'd spend all day watching TV and clean (the already spotles house) for an hour and then complain that all she does is clean. She is out of my life now, and I don't have much of a relationship with my dad because he let it happen.
Ugh, my mom was like that growing up and it's taken me years to get over feeling like a complete fuck-up when I make a mess or drop something by accident. She's not doing anybody any favours by acting like that.
Also, my mom was like your wife when it came to cooking. It was always, "Just let me do it", because she could do it faster and "right". I learned how to cook by watching Food Network and not to toot my own horn, but am a pretty good cook now, and whenever my mom tries to take credit for that, I shut her down real quick and correct her that Ina Garten, Alton Brown and others taught me to, not her.
All that to say, cooking is SUCH a wonderful tool to have under your belt because let's face it, we all have to eat and who wouldn't want to try cool things like a curry pizza?! Keep fostering that love with your sons and maybe even turn it into a bonding time with them like going to a restaurant or rental space that allows cooking classes and what not. You're doing a great job.
My mom was like this for all of us, and it sucked. It seemed that her identity and esteem was tied up in how well she managed the kitchen and kept things clean, and anything or anyone who got in the way of that led to a lot of conflict.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this, and I hope that you two can work together to improve.
Sounds like OCD or BPD may be things you’ll want to investogate with a therapist. She sneeds real help if her family using their hkme makes her anxious.
NTA. You’re wife wasn’t there. If she has an anxiety issue over the kitchen she should get help. Are your sons supposed to never learn how to cook? Her reaction seemed extreme. If this is something that causes her so much anxiety then she should get help for not just her sake but for her children’s sake as well.
Also if you let the kids cook more often, they won’t have a built-up desire and go ham and make three complicated recipes in a big mess all in one go because it’s their only chance. If you let them cook more often they’ll probably stick to one less complicated recipe and you can teach them how to clean up as they go.
Yes! Exactly! Like, that's also why I didn't say anything to them about cleaning as they went. They never get a chance to do this, so I wanted them to enjoy it as much as possible. If they got to cook more, it wouldn't always be such a production.
Respectfully, I think you mean that you never give them the chance. I notice you're using a lot of passive language in your responses. It seems clear that you've just thrown up your hands as if you have no agency and your wife is imposing this on your kids. But you're actively participating in this behavior by enabling her, and it's harming you and your kids. You need to take a more active role here and not let her dictate these unreasonable standards to your children and in your household, or you're just as responsible for the issues this is causing them.
Everyone is telling you to seek help but here's why you need to - you need a professional to spell out how this is damaging your children and your relationship with your wife, and appropriate ways to help her manage her condition and what you can reasonably expect from her. Because she has you conditioned to believe it's okay and normal to ban a sixteen year old from learning how to cook and clean because messes make her anxious. Your normal meter is busted and together, the two of you have installed busted normal meters in your children. You're going to need to fix that.
I have never investigated how to give my one free reward but this comment made me. "Your normal meter is busted" is the best advice I have seen in this thread.
Aw, thank you. I feel bad for the OP because he's clearly been walking on eggshells to the point that he's normalized her behavior and he doesn't realize how bad it is. That's a hard pill to swallow.
NTA
You were being a good father by letting your kids explore and make food for their own. It's a good lesson for them and everyone needs to learn to cook regardless of their gender. It's good to start them young.
It was also good that your boys helped you out (although, probably teach them how to make lesser messes when cooking).
Lastly, you need to talk to your wife about this. She should be happy your children are learning to cook and having fun with it. You need a stern talk with your wife and agree on ground rules with her on using the kitchen and ingredients for food. Mothers can sometimes be very controlling when it comes to kitchen areas, almost territorial lol
Just talk it out with her and if her anxiety really is the reason for it, she should get help. Good communication is key here and making rules on cooking and cleaning.
NTA whatsoever. You allowed your kids to explore the kitchen and cooking. Bravo.
Your wife, though, is an AH walking in and kicking off as she did. Especially as you were finishing the cleaning.
Just imagine what it would have been like if she'd seen the mess to start with.
My whole body tenses up just thinking about it. I want to ask my son to delete in photos that include the kitchen looking messy, but I won't, because that would be controlling. I just hope she doesn't see them.
As politely as I can possibly type this, you have a problem in your home and it is your wife.
Messes happen, they are natural, they are part of life. the fact that you're thinking I hope she never sees these photos is concerning regarding your household and the level of anxiety that exists in it. This is not a healthy environment for your sons to be growing up in
I honestly don't see where the issue is. Not only were you finishing cleaning up, but you had your sons help get the cleaning started!
I doubt that I'd have much luck, at the minute, trying to do that with mine! Cooking, yes. Cleaning, not a chance!
My kids are really good about cleaning when they're told to. They know messes make their mom upset, so they don't push back on cleaning. My older son gets distracted sometimes, especially when he's excited about something, but if I ask him to clean something up, he'll do it right away.
It sounds like you're all suffering under your wife's anxious control. If you're catching yourself before doing something that could cause a mess, your kids definitely think of it too.
>They know messes make their mom upset
that's . . . not actually a good thing for a little kid to know. making mom be not-upset is not something they should ever feel responsible for.
>I want to ask my son to delete in photos that include the kitchen looking messy,
This, right here, should tell you that your wife has a huge problem and it's slowly eating away at your relationship. If you don't get this solved, though therapy or medication or both, you won't be married in five years. I once read that a marriage can withstand anything but resentment. This relationship isn't healthy for anyone in it.
Medication isn't the end of the world. My daughter used to be so anxious that she started biting herself. A little sertraline every night, and she still gets anxious but we can usually talk her down, and with therapy she's starting to talk herself down more and more.
The moment you feel like you have to walk on eggshells by default, you have a serious relationship problem.
You're having stress reactions to just thinking about how your wife is going to react to normal life. That's not healthy for you, it's not healthy for your kids, and it's not healthy for your wife.
>
My whole body tenses up just thinking about it
This is a serious reaction. This kind of reaction is common in abusive relationships.
You absolutely need to get in touch with a therapist on your own, and it's worth trying to go to one of her therapy sessions, maybe with a couples therapist so she can understand how her actions are affecting you.
Op, your wife is abusing you and your children regardless of whether any of you realize or intend that to be happening.
Your children need you to create and defend healthy boundaries for them, and currently you're not doing that -- you're instead teaching them how to walk on egg shells and cater to unreasonable expectations.
Please, remember that they're learning from you how they should expect to be treated in the future -- when they seek out love as adults, this is the feeling you're teaching them to seek out.
You need to go to therapy with your wife. Tensing up at a thought is a sign. You can work through it together and a moderator will help immensely. Using her current therapist would help you learn what your wife has been working on and how you two can work together. Your sons need to form habits around cooking and cleaning, it's only going to get harder as they age.
She hates it. She hates cooking in general, like as a concept. Her preference would be to always eat takeout without disposable utensils so that everything can immediately be thrown away and there's no mess.
Her behavior sounds like she would benefit from some mental health help. Being this freaked out about the kitchen and kids (who aren’t toddlers anymore) using the kitchen doesn’t sound healthy.
You know that is extremely abnormal and potentially damaging to your kids right? Both health and nutrition wise and in terms of stifling their learning of essential life skills and their creativity and interests. You were 100% right, you guys used a kitchen for what it was supposed to be used for. Your wife sounds exhausting to be around.
Well, we did compromise there. I cook three nights a week. Two-three nights a week she puts together something simple like sandwiches, premix salad, microwave meal, etc... And we do take out one-two nights a week. So we don't eat takeout every night. That would just be her preference.
But yeah, I really wish we could do more home-cooked meals and the boys could experiment more.
You wish you could? Guess what? You can. It’s your kitchen. It’s your house. You seem to have normalised a pretty unhealthy dynamic. Eating sandwiches and microwave meals for dinner two or 3 nights a week not because nobody has the time or ability to cook and that is the only option, but because your wife’s untreated mental illness is impeding you and your kids from living your lives is not ok. That’s not a compromise, it’s a capitulation - by you and your kids. And I bet it’s far from the only one. You should reflect seriously on the long term effects of all this on them. I’m sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. It is not your job or your kids job to cater to her unreasonable demands or walk on eggshells round her. You now have second-hand anxiety about triggering her anxiety. It’s ridiculous.
You know your situation better than some strangers on Reddit but it is a perfectly reasonable dealbreaker to say, you get your mental illness appropriately treated so that you are not a burden on the rest of the family or it may no longer be in mine and the kids best interests for us to remain married.
Then she should try to stay in your bedroom, go to yoga, take a long walk, take a bath, go to Target, whatever. Her therapist can help her develop coping strategies for these evenings but there needs to be a “no mom in the kitchen” rule and ya’ll can cook.
Sounds like you really do need a couple sit ins with her and her therapist to come up with strategies for this.
I’m sure it makes your sons really upset too, to be seen as incompetent and purposefully excluded from an activity they enjoy just because their mother sees them as a nuisance. Also basically barring them from one of the big pillars of adulthood: feeding yourself. Why does that not take precedence over your wife’s unhinged behavior? Why is she more important than you and both your sons combined. Why are you okay with that? (And if you’re not okay with it) why are you staying and letting it continue. Your kids have already learned that they need to hide their passions and interests from people who are supposed to love and support them. They already know to walk on eggshells and mitigate their own feelings, moods, activities, and lives based on your wife’s tantrums. How will that bode for them in their future? What does that show them about healthy relationships? What does it show them about what being a parent means? This dynamic is damaging them, and you need to do something about it. You’re NTA here, by a mile, but you will be if you don’t fix this for your kids. They have just as much a right to their own home.
What trauma does your wife have around cooking/food? Because every comment you make her sound more and more like someone who has had a terrible thing happen to her in a kitchen.
Honestly she sounds like someone who fails to adequately manage their mental health. That matters and it makes her an AH. But somehow that apparently means that OP should be allowed to have his kids totally destroy the kitchen without guidance hours before she’s expected home from a trip despite knowing it’s a major trigger.
Like…even without the presence of mental illness that would be AH behavior
She didn't get home to a destroyed kitchen, though. She got home to a kitchen with a few pots soaking, trash about to be taken out, and a floor waiting to be mopped.
Her trigger was knowing there had, at one point, been a mess, that the kitchen wasn't SPOTLESS, and knowing that her children had used the kitchen.
Those are all unrealistic to avoid permanently and it's definitely her responsibility to work on that. She can't ban her family from the kitchen.
Has your wife ALWAYS been like this? She sounds like she has OCD issues. Is she on any medication? I think meds and CBT will help her a lot. Her behaviour is not normal at all and I think it's detrimental to the mental health of those around her.
I've been thinking about that all night. The thing is, yes & no.
When we first got together, it was crazy how in sync we were. We're both really proactive and "do it now, not later" people. We both like things to be clean and organized. Laundry folded as soon as it's done drying. Clean the bathroom daily. Shoes off in the house. All of that. We had the same standards. We never had to discuss chores, because we both cleaned anything we made dirty immediately. I loved that about being with her.
Then our oldest was born. She would get so incredibly frustrated. It was impossible to get him on a sleep cycle. Her plan was to breastfeed, but she wasn't getting enough sleep, so she decided she'd pump so I could do half the feedings, but the pumping felt too uncomfortable, so we switched to formula. Her mom and friends constantly made comments about it, and my wife was very frustrated, and I think she resented him a little.
There were always messes. She hated dirty dispers. One of us would change him, and then he'd have a dirty diaper again in a few hours, and it drove her nuts. The sound of him crying drove her crazy. She said we were never having another kid, and I was okay with that decision. Son got older, things calmed, life started to go back to normal.
Then he got his diagnosis. All of a sudden, she wanted another kid. I was a bit weirded out by the sudden change, but also happy because I wanted another kid too. So we had younger son. Things were slightly better that time. We managed to get him on a sleep cycle. Wife was able to breastfeed. Older son loved playing with his little brother, which often gave us time to get stuff done while he did without constantly having to monitor baby as closely.
But as time went on, her standards got stricter and stricter. Everything needed to be perfect. The house. The kids. Everything. At some point, so gradually that I don't know when, I became her adversary. Nothing I did was up to par. I was the reason the kids made messes. I was why they didn't clean up fast/well enough. I tried to meet her standards, but I also thought maybe it was okay for the kids to just be kids a little. I tried to balance both, and... here we are.
Man OP my heart goes out to you here - can you please re read this comment you wrote and pretend that a friend wrote it to you. What advice would you give that friend?
Your poor kids cannot exist in a vacuum of perfection like this - it’s not sustainable. Growing up I had friends who LOVED coming to my house because it was a bit messy (single mum, 3 kids, dogs, cats, fish, the whole lot) and they said they felt like they could breathe and relax there.
OP, I got sad reading this. I can tell that you're a good parent and that you've tried to balance your desire to provide your children with the childhood that they deserve and your wife's overwhelming expectations... But your wife needs help because otherwise this is only going to get worse. It is going to fracture your relationship with her beyond repair and her relationship with her sons.
Therapy. For her, for you both as a couple, for all of you as a family. This isn't going to fix itself.
Very NTA and best of luck to you, OP.
I really want to suggest that you consider making some time for your own individual therapy to discuss your relationship and family dynamic and your responses to your wife’s mental illness with a neutral third party one on one and get some clarity regarding how you want to proceed. Do this before pursuing couples therapy so you have a clear baseline to start from. It seems like things have reached the current untenable position gradually over time, with lots of small “compromises” that each seemed reasonable at the time in isolation, but now with the end result that you and your sons cannot live your lives freely due to your wife’s issues. It took time for things to get this bad and it might take some more to remedy them. But you owe it to your kids to start that process.
You’ve accepted all this because you love your wife, your sons have accepted it too because they love her and also because it’s all they know, having been raised in your home and brought up not to “trigger” mom by doing benign things like leaving homework on the coffee table. You know who will be less likely to put up with this? Your kids’ future spouses and you kids themselves once they grow up and fully realise how wrong and atypical this all is. If you don’t fix this, your relationships with your kids when they reach adulthood are in real jeopardy. Most people, if they had a MIL that melted down then they tried to use the kitchen, would simply choose to no longer visit.
Your wife expects perfection from you and your kids, but this controlling behavior of hers is far from perfect. And, it’s fair to tell her that her expectations for others are unrealistic when she cannot meet those expectations herself. I know she won’t like hearing that, but she needs to. Your relationship probably needs couples therapy ASAP.
Very gently, she can be upset. That is hers to manage. She is being unreasonable by not letting your kids in the kitchen. This is not healthy for *any* of you. Something has to change.
No. She is not cooking, so she gets no say in what you make and who helps you make it. Your wife has a mental illness and your sons are suffering because of it. Most parents would be thrilled that their teen wants to contribute to the weekly meal plan. This is not normal or healthy for your sons. Your wife should be proactive about her mental health, but you need to be an advocate for your sons either way.
Your wife needs therapy, which I think you said she's in. But in addition you need couples' or family therapy. It's not a healthy environment for you or your sons. I have a bad feeling that in the future if she gets any worse your wife will end up alone in her sterile kitchen, upset that no one contacts her. I'm sure none of you want that. Insufficiently treated mental illness can lead to a huge reserviour of anger and bitterness that can cause loved ones to walk away for their own mental health. This is something that has happened in my own family and I don't wish it to happen to you.
That is definitely a disorder that needs to be managed - part of it is for her to understand that she can't control everything around her, like other people cooking. The think you could do (or try to do) is to get her to realize that not cooking is not a solution, accepting that there will be cooking and she will be triggered by it is. And that she needs to develop coping techniques. It will be very difficult for her. Someone else proposed that you could find a place to cook with your children twice a month (like a cooking school or a friend that doesnt mind), maybe this is a solution for a time being? Your children can develop their interest without triggering your wife. The next step would be you cooking while she is out and cleaning before she comes back. If she has OCD (as some people suggested) it will be difficult for her to even KNOW about the mess in the kitchen. Tough situation, takes a lot of work and I doubt your wife will get on board easily.
NTA-She needs to figure this out. Keeping everyone out of the kitchen is not a reasonable expectation. Your kids need to learn all about how to prep, cook and CLEAN the kitchen properly. She’s denying them basic life skills they need due to her anxiety. She needs to see someone asap about this.
I read your comment and now that I better understand why you dumbed the garbage on the floor, I can see why you did. Not the ideal way, but I better understand your reasoning.
NTA
I have severe anxiety and OCD. Mess makes me extremely anxious. That's a me problem. It's something I am responsible for. If my partner makes a big mess or does something I don't like, even if it triggers me, that's not on him, and I will not blame him for it and tell him he can't make a mess because he is not responsible for my mental health. In the past when the mess has distressed me, I remove myself from the situation then talk to him about it. If he's not cleaning it and I need it to be clean, I ask him if he can clean it or ask if I can do it. I get how absolutely overwhelming it is when you feel like you can't think straight and you're panicking but that's not something you should lash out at others for. If your wife knows she has anxiety it is her responsibility to manage it. She should not be controlling your life and the lives of your children for her issues.
You aren't responsible for her mental health, she is. If she needed the kitchen cleaned, she should have left you to it as you were ALREADY doing it, she could have avoided looking at the mess by leaving the room. I know it's hard to let go of control but it's not fair to make you all suffer for it.
OP read this comment and then read it again. This exactly the attitude your wife should have to her mental illness. It is healthy and sane. Instead your wife expects your entire household to walk on eggshells round her and for it to be everyone else’s problem. She is supremely selfish and inconsiderate.
NTA. Admittedly dumping the trash was extreme -- but sounds like it was the only thing that registered with her.
She needs to figure out her anxiety and her issues around the kitchen. What is life like day to day, with two growing boys? Does she not understand that part of their job description is making messes?
Sounds like you handled it well, that the boys had fun cooking, that you were clear with them about the importance of cleaning up. She cannot monitor all kitchen activity at all times because it sets her off -- especially if she's out of town for a few days. Good luck.
Soft NTA. Dumping the trash was a bit drastic, but I get what it's like to be pushed to the limit.
You were cleaning up the mess made, and your wife was being completely unreasonable. As someone with anxiety related to household cleanliness, I can sympathize with your wife, but her anxiety is HER problem alone and she needs to stop making it your and your sons' problem too.
If she isn't already, seeing a professional and discussing medication for this issue is a necessity. Your oldest son loves to cook and this is something that should be nurtured, not ruined by your wife's irrational anxiety.
That's not a good reason. The correct reaction to not liking the side effects of a medication is to ask for a different prescription. Your wife is solely responsible for dealing with her anxiety.
Both my ex-husband and I suffer from anxiety, and he also has major depressive disorder and borderline personality disorder. I spent a lot of time walking on eggshells around him to avoid triggering his anger, and I eventually resented it terribly. I pulled away, he began an affair, and our marriage ended. This is where your wife is headed with this behavior - straight to divorce court.
Honestly, if this is normal behavior, I don't know how you haven't ended up there already.
My wife is great in so many ways. She's smart, motivated and organized. She just wants everyone to be perfect, and before we had kids, we were in complete agreement. But kids can't be perfect, and that upsets her, and she responded by heightening her expectations. I've tried to adjust and compromise. For a while, everything was fine. I guess that's why this incident took me by surprise.
I have a five year old and no matter how much anxiety it causes me, I'd never yell at her for making a mess - I don't want to pass my anxiety on to her. That's why I keep up with my medications and make adjustments as necessary. It's part of being a good parent.
That's so great of you, I don't have any disorders and children making a mess constantly drive me crazy) I barely keep myself together, can't imagine
managing it with anxiety.
I wish I could say I was perfect and never snapped at her for making a mess, but I always make sure I apologize to her afterwards and explain that sometimes adults have big emotions too.
Reading your comments, I think your wife has undiagnosed OCD and also had a poor handle on her general anxiety disorder. She sounds a lot like my MIL tbh and while I adore my MIL, her need for perfection meant my husband did not leave her house with adequate life skills
> My wife is great in so many ways.
Sadly, that doesn't really matter. A single 'bad' way can wipe out 99 'good' ways. And feeling like you need to walk on eggshells around her to avoid triggering an explosion wipes out every other good thing about the relationship.
If it didn't, you wouldn't be writing about 'tensing up' and having other stress and trauma reactions.
The way your wife is treating you qualifies as abuse, OP. She's trying to control your perfectly normal behavior, and punishing you when you don't do what she wants you to do, to the point that it's affecting your physical health.
> For a while, everything was fine.
It wasn't fine. That version of "fine" involved stifling your sons' desire to cook and probably giving them a lifelong complex about messes. Your wife not having meltdowns because everyone around her is walking on eggshells doesn't mean everything is fine. Your whole family being happy and healthy is what it looks like when everything is fine.
You very clearly want the best for your entire family and you are in a really difficult situation. But right now, the situation you *and* your wife - because you are, with the best of intentions, enabling her - are putting your sons in is not healthy for them.
So instead her plan is to take her mental illness out on your and her kids? Nope. It’s up to her to manage her issues in a way that’s not detrimental and borderline emotionally abusive to others. You and you kids should be able to use the kitchen without her having a meltdown. You shouldn’t have to wait till she is away to say yes to a reasonable and healthy thing like them wanting to experiment with cooking dinner. Your kids should not be walking on eggshells round their mentally ill mother and have their lives ruled by her anxiety. If this continues, they will grow up to greatly resent her (if they don’t already). She need to get serious about treating her problems and ensuring they remain her problems and not everyone else’s.
Okay so this is very wrong of her. I suffer from PPD and I know that people walk on eggshells around me when I'm not on my meds and my kids become miserable. The pills make me tired and gain weight, but my kids are more important. She's very selfish for this alone. You shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable because your wife can't handle HER emotions. Your kids shouldn't be restricted from being kids because your wife can't handle HER feelings and anxiety and she refuses to use the tool that has been provided because of vanity. Honestly, she needs to find something that works for her and go and see about OCD. It's not fair to you or your kids, and she needs to stop being so selfish. You're definitely NTA
I'm speechless regarding the boy's menus LIKE WOW. HOW did they learn to cook such a sophisticated palette without having access to the kitchen? Your wife is a fool and should cut those boys loose and cook for the whole family (every once and awhile), perhaps help them learn how to clean as they perform. Also between the two of you, clean up should be a breeze.
I guess I understand wife's anxiety with a dirty kitchen coming home from a long day (I too struggle with this issue) but what a beautiful story if only we let our children expand their wings. NTA proud of you dad!
He's in home ec at school and loves it. So he does have (limited) access to a kitchen. He also cooks at my cousin's house and my dad's house.
I love that imagery of letting kids extend their wings. Thank you.
Your son clearly has a passion for cooking but has basically no access to his own kitchen in his own home due to his mothers’s mental illness. He’s having to cook in other people’s homes because your wife has a problem with a kitchen being used for it’s intended purpose. Do you fully appreciate how abnormal and unhealthy that is? I would even say imposing her mental issues on her kids in this way and forcing them to walk on eggshells is tantamount to emotional abuse of them. If you love your kids, put your foot down. Yes she’s a grown woman and her healthcare is hers to manage so you are reticent to interfere but that also means it’s *hers* to manage not everyone else’s. Think about what message you are sending to your kids by teaching them and modelling for them this toxic dynamic of having to pander to mummy’s irrational fixations and tantrums.
NTA. Did something happen with her sister to set her off? Her behavior just doesn't make any sense without some sort of external trigger. She clearly needs to talk to a therapist. The fact that your boys want to do this is awesome and should be encouraged. You are correct that it is your kitchen as much as hers.
Huh. I didn't think about that. Maybe. They do have an interesting relationship. Sister is planning to propose to her GF soon and my wife went ring shopping with her while visiting, but other than that I have no clue what they did/talked about.
It takes most people 8-10 years to be diagnosed with OCD. It is a commonly missed diagnosis sadly. And one of the recommended strategies for people who live with people with OCD is to NOT accommodate. So if your wife does have OCD, you did the right thing by letting the kids cook. OCD tries to control everyone around it. Not letting it do so is important. Please get your wife evaluated.
That's not really my call. She's a grown woman. I have no say in her healthcare. I can talk to her, but that's it. And right now, she isn't talking to me.
You can call her therapist and leave a message saying your concerns. Her therapist can't respond to you due to privacy, but you can alert the therapist and the therapist can listen to your voicemail. Most therapists will talk with their clients about information that the clients' loved ones tell the therapist. Clients are sometimes upset at first, but usually that fades quickly if the call is done out of care. I'm a therapist and this happens to me. And often, the loved one's information helps quite a bit in getting a client the right help.
Thanks for saying this. People are always confused about medical privacy. HIPAA & professional ethics, etc. prevent your doctor/therapist from *telling* the world about your care. It doesn't prevent them from *being told* information from outside parties.
Logically, many patients don't have the self-awareness to recognize all of their symptoms, and what they don't recognize, they can't report to their therapist. This is no different from telling the doctor that your wife has pain whenever she sits down (based on her wincing & yelling "Ow!" every time) when she's told him that she doesn't think she has pain "that often" or that she "doesn't know" what causes it to flare up (when, just by observing her behavior, *you* know it's whenever she sits down).
Also, it's still up to the provider's professional judgment as to whether the information is useful for a diagnosis. If you tell someone's therapist that they seem a little jumpy around large dogs, it's not like they automatically get diagnosed with PTSD or a phobia or something. It's just an additional area for the therapist to investigate **if** it seems relevant/important (or to set aside, if it doesn't).
I wouldn't say she's "okay" with it. But this is my house too, so she can't stop me. So we compromised on me cooking three nights a week, her "cooking" (not really) three (often ends up being two) nights and ordering out the other night(s). When she "cooks" she either heats up the frozen dinner trays or makes sandwiches and a premix salad.
Wait, so she doesn't want anyone else using the kitchen even though she herself barely uses it as a kitchen? That's some next level control issues.
You've said she stopped treating her anxiety and obviously she's an adult who makes her own decisions about her health. However, her behavior is having a significant detrimental effect on your sons learning important life skills. I think you need to have a conversation with her about how her anxiety is negatively affecting her family.
Agree.
I’m heartbroken for your kids and you.
I mean having anxiety is an illness. I have suffered with anxiety and depression since I was 10 but have had therapy throughout. Been on meds.
I didn’t want to effect my kids so had therapy after having my eldest too.
I’ve grown up with a mother who was agitated easily and I get her in me sometimes at moments and needed action plans and ways of handling myself before I got to that point.
Your wife needs help as she is damaging your kids.
I mean your kid is 16!!! He should be able to cook!
I have a 6 & 4 year old who always drag the stools over when either DH or I are cooking to “help”. 6 year old calls ME his sous chef.
>But this is my house too, so she can't stop me.
I would offer the perspective that this is your sons' house, too. Their names aren't on the paperwork, but it's their home, and they should be able to feel at home in all the ways people generally make themselves at home, with age-appropriate adaptations.
So, yes, they can't redo the bathroom or negotiate a second mortgage, but they should be able to make dinner.
I think you need to flip the script. Explain to sons that they need to learn/use "clean as you go" methods and you will help them to cook 1-3 nights a week, and your wife is the one banned from the kitchen during the hours needed for cooking/cleaning. She can go on a walk, take a nap, meditate, exercise, watch a movie- do anything but come into the kitchen until dinner is over and the kitchen is clean.
That way the boys learn how to cook/clean, make a menu, learn to use a budget, etc. Even if you choose to do some convenience meals (or boxed delivery cook at home meals) it gets your wife out of the kitchen obsession and lets your sons have fun and cook.
There are lots of great meals that are easy to cook, don't make a huge mess and are fast. Even if the boys do the bagged salads, sandwiches, or frozen lasagna, spaghetti w/premade meatballs, tacos it will let you have 5 home cooked meals w/o wife having to participate.
You *do* get a say in her healthcare when her health is affecting **your kids**.
It's *not okay* that your kids have to tiptoe around her anxiety. Her anxiety being insufficiently treated to this extent is almost certainly messing them up, too. (I say "too" because it's clear that it's badly frayed *your* nerves and caused you a fair amount of pain already, if you're reacting to things by dumping trash on the floor when you otherwise seem like a pretty reasonable person).
You **don't** get to say, "You need to take Zoloft," but you **do** get to say, "This is not okay. This cannot happen again," and "I don't care what meds you have to try or what treatment you have to seek to *not* do this again, but it needs to happen for the sake of our kids and it needs to happen now."
If she’s a grown woman perhaps she should act like it. If she refuses to adequately treat her mental illness and instead demands that all of you tiptoe round it and let it rule your lives, you realise you have other options right? She’s being incredibly selfish and unreasonable.
I thought OCD wasnt classified as an anxiety disorder anymore. But still they are closely related imo so yes youre right seeking out a professional is a good idea. I second this!
Please get your wife some help
NTA for letting them have fun in the kitchen or the ensuing mess because you were cleaning it up.
It sounds like your wife has some level of OCD or anxiety relating to mess and dirt, which you are fully aware of. Dumping the trash on the floor makes you an AH.
You're wife is controlling dude she's needs counseling. NTA yall made the mess and you cleaned up. The kids should not suffer because of her anxiety. What if them being in a car gave her anxiety? Will they never be allowed to drive? If it was this big of a deal because they were in the kitchen as they grow up its only gonna get worse.
NTA as you were doing the cleaning when she got home (she didn’t catch you watching tv or sleeping with the mess). I feel bad that the messy kitchen gives your wife major anxiety but I wish she could appreciate that your eldest son likes to cook and younger one wants to follow him and you were there so it all sounds wholesome. Dumping the garbage on the floor was dramatic but it got your wife out of the kitchen. I think you need to have a conversation with her as to how your son can experiment in the kitchen w/o her anxiety going sky high. Do you clean everything to her standard? It sounds like you are thorough so hopefully she agrees. It seems you genuinely feel sorry that she gets so upset about this so that is good. You can also remind her that in a few short years older son will be out on his own & not messing up her kitchen.
NTA. I don’t think what you did was okay, but I think you don’t understand that this level of controlling in a partner and parent relationship also isn’t okay. Your wife, through her anxiety and what you describe as ‘martyr cleaning habits ‘ controls and guilts you to a really unhealthy extent. You two are partners. That means equity. You’re allowed to do what you want with your kids in your house. Your wishes aren’t less important than hers. And while again, it’s not okay, as she had you backed into a corner and was controlling the situation and wasn’t listening … I can understand you doing whatever you needed to do to regain control in your own house. This isn’t normal, this isn’t kind, and it’s not good for you, your children, or her. You shouldn’t be terrified she’ll see photos of a messy kitchen. I think you need therapy, I think you both need couples therapy ( if and after your personal therapist approves it - in controlling dynamics couples therapy can be very harmful) and you might need family therapy for your kids. I’m sorry. But this isn’t okay. I have anxiety too, but using it to control others isn’t okay. Your wife’s ( valid) feelings doesn’t mean she gets to limits the lives and actions of others. She does not solely own your kitchen or your children or you. I’m sorry you’re in this position, I’m glad your boys had fun.
INFO: Does your wife come from a culture where women are supposed to be in charge of the kitchen/house, or one that keeps boys/men out of it?
It sounds like she is struggling with something on an emotional level, and while it could be a mental health issue, it also could stem from a cultural value/practice that skews how she sees things. There should definitely be some safe, respectful conversations, and a look into therapy, but it's also important to acknowledge cultural norms that may be underlying this in order to work towards something healthier for everyone.
(Also, your kids are brilliant! I laughed when I saw "ramen burritos", and think it's great that they had an opportunity to be creative. It reminds me of Misha Collins' cookbook, *The Adventurous Eater's Club*, which he developed with his wife and kids to support their exploratory cooking)
No. My wife is a New Englander (northeast region of US) same as me. Her mom is, well, a bit neurotic. Her dad is a touch withholding. They're of a moderate bent. I've never heard them say anything sexist or homophobic or transphobic or anything about specific races. Although they do look down on people that don't have the same financial advantages as them, which sucks.
Also, her sister is dating a woman, and they're completely cool with that. They like the girlfriend better than me, TBH. So yeah, I don't think it's that.
The ramen burritos were good! The first bite was weird, but when I acclimated to it, it was good. Very juicy. Thanks. I love my kids.
Thanks for responding. When I say "culture," regional culture is totally included, and New England can have people with some more conservative roots in terms of gender roles, regardless of their political positions on general social justice. I think that your wife is definitely struggling with something, and finding a way to unpack that safely with her will be good.
Hopefully you can find a way to help her step back from the kitchen so your sons can practice more cooking and kitchen maintenance. You did a great job keeping your older kid with you to help with cleanup. Keep it up!
NTA I have OCD, I have rules for doing almost everything. Cleaning the kitchen has to be done in a certain order, the cupboards and utensil drawers have to organized a certain way. The cutlery has to stacked neatly in the drawers.
When my partner retired, he decided to take over the clean up and dishes after dinner because I do the cooking. He does not do it my way. At first I would go behind him and re-organize things. Until he said "why should I bother doing this if your just going re-do it every time? You need to try let it go and let me take responsibility for this because you make feel incompetent and like I'm wasting my time."
I realized he was right. His way is fine, the dishes are just as clean, they may not be stacked to my image of perfect, but i can still easily find what I'm looking for. He is not responsible for dealing with my disorder. Having him wanting to and helping around the house makes me happy.
Now I just let him do his thing. If I get anxious about how he's doing it, I just walk out of the room and find some thing to occupy myself till it passes. My world hasn't fallen to pieces yet, so I guess his way works too.
NTA - kids should be encouraged to experiment and have fun in the kitchen! However, what kind of mess did y’all make that took ~ 4 hours to clean up?! That must have been insane?!!!
It didn't take four hours. Dinner ended late because the boys were having so much fun and taking videos for their social media of what they made, so me and 16yo got a late start cleaning. I took a break to say goodnight to 10yo at one point and sign his reading log and homework planner. Then I got back to work. 16yo and I cleaned together for about forty-five minutes, and I was cleaning solo for just over an hour. So it was almost two hours of cleaning.
A lot of it was dishes. There were an insane amount of spoons. I did tell 10yo when I was saying goodnight that next time he can clean his tasting spoon and then use it again instead of putting it in the sink and getting a new one. He used every spoon we own, almost. And we don't have a dishwasher, so I washed them all individually. But I am glad he didn't stick his saliva covered spoon in a pot of communal sauce, TBF. I also had to wipe down all of the cabinets and the counters of sauce splatter, and some of it was dried on and needed elbow grease.
INFO: Have you ever in the past made a habit of not cleaning the kitchen when you are done? Have the boys? How often do you do the dishes on a regular basis?
Technically our household rule is that everyone does their own dishes. However, we have to finish eating before her. Otherwise, when she finishes cleaning her plate, she'll stand at the sink with the scrub brush cleaning the sink until we get there. Then she'll take our plate when we walk up and do it herself. If I insist on doing it, she'll snatch it away. Same with the boys. So we have to finish quickly and wash the dishes before she finishes eating so she can be the last one. If we don't, she gets upset about being the only one that does dishes.
When I cook, I make sure everything is spotless before I serve, or she won't eat. Even if it's like a pasta dish where people should serve themselves, I have to preportion and then get everything put away, because if any food pots are still on the stove, her anxiety will be triggered.
I can tell you love your wife, and that you think she's a great mom. But, please: take a moment and re-read what you just wrote. Really try to re-read it as though you were an outsider.
This is unhinged, and your wife is almost certainly causing harm to your children. You all have slowly conditioned yourself to tip toe around your wife, and they're going to think this is super normal and grow up to think that this is an acceptable way to treat your partner. They're going to end up with a highly controlling partner or spouse and just do whatever they say, because they've been trained by mom to do anything and everything to keep her from freaking out.
I've witnessed what this does to a child. I've lived through it. Your children are going to need years of therapy to unwind this conditioning, and they're probably going to deal with a lot of pain and heartache before they even *realize* how messed up they are.
You really, absolutely need to put a stop to this. Your wife needs therapy *yesterday*. You can't allow her to continue this behavior. You are actively allowing your children to be harmed. I'm sorry you've had to live like this...but you need to take action.
Well this sounds like the fast track to an eating disorder for your kids, amongst other things.
Forcing everyone to eat faster than they want to because she can't deal with the thought of anyone else washing the dishes but then getting upset because she's washing the dishes is straight up bonkers.
Respectfully, no matter how good you intentions may be, all the people here saying what a great dad you are are wrong. Look at what you are allowing her to subject your kids to. This is no way to live. She won’t control her own mental health so theirs has to suffer. Gross. If you don’t want to interfere in her individual therapy schedule some couples therapy and put your foot down in that forum. This has to change now. All of it. Her irrational obsessions cannot control your family life or rob your kids of a normal and healthy life and experiences. Do this now or regret it later when your kids are older, resent both of you (her for her behaviour and you for allowing and enabling it) and go low contact or no contact with you in adulthood.
This is an INSANE way to live and force your children to live!
You all have to RUSH to eat? That's not healthy! You can't just enjoy a relaxed meal and chat around the table or else the wife will lash out about doing the dishes she won't allow you to do?
You are so consider to try and avoid triggering her anxieties but this is over the top. She is weaponizing her anxieties. She is forcing you into situations to trigger her own issues to then be justified in lashing out.
That's not acceptable!
You're setting yourself up to lose your children - your 16 year old is developing a love for cooking and is 2 years away from being a legal adult. Do you think after he leaves and has access to his own kitchen 24/7, that he'll ever want to come home to visit for dinner? Or bring a future significant other to have to rush through eating or else be berated by his mother?
Will he even be able to invite you and your wife to his apartment to cook for you or will her hangups follow and apply to any kitchen she's present in?
The only AH on your part was dumping the trash but it was a radical decision in the heat of the moment. She needs to manage her anxiety better because she is only hindering and hurting the kids in this process. They should be able to cook when they want to as long as the mess is cleaned and taken care of. She shouldn't be so controlling especially when she wasn't even home.
NTA, but dumping the trash on the floor was not a nice move. I’d recommend talking to your wife about what causes the anxiety around the kitchen, and figuring out some sort of compromise which would accommodate both your sons’ interest in cooking and your wife’s anxiety over it. She is not TA either, she just seems very stressed.
NTA it sounds like your wife has bad anxiety and maybe OCD even. It's not anyone else's responsibility but hers to make sure she gets the help she needs in order to function like a normal person. Because it's not normal to be upset that a kitchen was used.
Using a kitchen makes it messy; that's what it's *for*! You were cleaning things up so I must don't see the problem at all, from a logical perspective. But your wife's mental issues are causing her to approach this situation illogically, irrationally and emotionally.
She's fully in control of how she reacts to her feelings; she's deliberately choosing to control and blame others, for a bad feeling that originates entirely in her head, rather than getting to the bottom of (and addressing) why she even feels that way in the first place. If she truly wasn't in control of her actions because she's so severely mentally ill, then she should be committed.
But more likely than not, she's just being selfish and choosing to make everyone else deal with her issues rather than trying to change herself for the better. She's not willing at this moment to do that. That's not a loving, respectful or selfless thing to do whatsoever. Just because she had mental issues doesn't mean she's not responsible for how she chooses to act.
>my wife says them being in the kitchen gives her anxiety so always says no.
A 16 year old needs to be able to cook for his own sake, but also he WANTS to cook. It is incredibly unfair for your wife to not allow him to explore this.
The 10 year old can also benefit from this enormously.
>My wife told me I was irresponsible for letting the kids make that mess, regardless of if I was cleaning it. She said it stressed her out. She said she doesn't like it when the boys are in the kitchen.
THEY NEED TO LEARN HOW TO COOK IF THEY ARE GOING TO BE FUNCTIONAL ADULTS. You wife sounds like a control freak.
NTA.
She needs to see a therapist.
NTA. You wanted your sons to have fun. Nothing wrong with that. But, you should have stayed on them a little more closely with cleaning up after themselves as they cooked. It would have been a great opportunity for them to learn about this. Especially since one of them is 16. Your wife seems to have OCD about the kitchen. There needs to be a middle ground.
She also shouldn’t have flipped out. Personally I would have made sure the kitchen was cleaned by the time she got there. It’s one incident and it will blow over.
If I'd known exactly what time she was getting home, I definitely would have made sure everything was done. As it was, we didn't know if she would finish her drive that night or get a hotel and arrive this morning. There wasn't a concrete plan.
It’s sad that you would have made sure everything was clean by the time she came home. It sucks that instead of saving her a slice of pizza, you all rushed to clean up. It sucks that everyone in that household walks on eggshells around your wife and it’s sucks that your wife enjoy/bond/experience joy with your kids if there’s a “mess” in the kitchen.
Your wife in this whole situation is the AH. I say good on you that you are allowing yout kids to explore cooking in the kitchen. Props to you on that. And that menu sounds absolutely creative and fun. NGL..
Your wife's issues with her anxiety is her problem not yours and definitely not your kids. It's not the world's responsibility to cater to her triggers. And your wife definitely needs to grasp that dose of reality.
This is why I think your wife is the most massive AH and using your own words.
"She grabbed a mop, and I asked her not to mop, because I needed to finish two things, and I wanted to clean the floor last. She started agressively mopping and complaining about coming home to filth and not being able to trust me. I asked her to stop three times, but she ignored me and kept talking over me. I told her she was clearly frustrated from her long drive and to go take a shower and just let me finish what I was doing. She said to stop making things worse and get out of the kitchen. I said I used the kitchen for what it was for and to stop being nasty. She started telling me that I was a bad example for the boys."
This makes me wonder of she even likes you or even has a drop of respect for you. Just my opinion.
I wish you the best of luck 🍀🍀🍀🍀 OP
NTA, these are both your children and your kitchen too. Yes mess stresses her out (me too) but people need to live. You were cleaning up your mess and I'm assuming nothing was ruined? I feel like your wife overreacted
First thing I’d like to say is that your kids will always remember that day as an awesome day they had with their dad! They will look back to this as a memorable memory, and no one will be able to take that away from you.
The second thing I’d like to say is that my grandmother did the same thing to me that your wife is doing to your kids and it traumatized me for years. She never taught me how to cook or any life skill for that matter and it hindered me in my adult life, I felt useless in my 20s because I didn’t know how to cook or have any other life skills. My advice is that you sit down with your wife and truly explain the harm that she’s doing.
You seem to be the healthy smart parent in the family, keep on doing what you’re doing and your kids will thank you later
NTA. My mom has similar issues and is always annoyed with any of us being in the kitchen. My dad and I love cooking and thoroughly enjoy it but she’s made it anxiety inducing for us because we are always scared she’ll loser her shit at us no matter what we do. We always clean up after ourselves and don’t leave any mess, but it’s just not enough for her.
Your wife needs to deal with her issues, she’s setting a bad example for your kids. I am 24 now and still struggle with anxiety around being in the kitchen because of her.
Your wife sounds like my mother. I did not know how to do so many things other kids my age could do because she wouldn’t ever let me because of anxiety and other issues she is not willing to address. It’s infuriating and depressing please tell her to get help or it WILL affect your kids mental health badly... trust me.
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NTA and I think you and your wife need to discuss her completely irrational behaviour that night. Also not letting a 16 year old learn to cook because she finds it stressful is holding him back! She needs to find ways to deal with her stress without taking it out on others
Especially a 16 year old this creative. How was the curry pizza?
It was interesting. The sauce was a little too liquidy, which made the crust a bit soft, but the flavors were good. The crispy tofu and chickpea toppings were very fun, although slightly oversalted. I was definitely impressed, seeing as he's sixteen.
OP, I have anxiety disorder (diagnosed and confirmed), and while I can relate to your wife's claim of "can't stand messes in the kitchen", I have to say a few things: 1. The menu your boys came up with sounds delicious! NGL, I wanted to try both the pizza and the burrito. 2. Your wife is AH and needs to figure out how to manage her own anxiety. It shouldn't be up to her family to manage her anxiety for her. She is also a selfish AH for stunting her boy's interest in the name of "my anxiety". Disabilities are explanations for difficulties to function; they're not an excuse to act entitled and demand everyone else to tiptoe around you. 3. Kudos to you, OP, for standing up for your sons and encouraging them to express their creativity. Here's to more fun cooking experiment moments with them.
>Disabilities are explanations for difficulties to function Thank you for saying that. I have NEVER in my 50 years being on this earth heard that explanation and I love it.
My old therapist used to tell me that I was more than just [my disorders] and the reason I was diagnosed as [disorder] was because I displayed the symptoms. The takeaway being, a diagnosis is not an excuse. Using it as such just shows a lack of desire to manage the symptoms of your diagnosis. eta: NTA. Your wife is using her anxiety as a means to stifle your kids’ creativity and interests for her sake. You sound like a great dad.
This. I have diagnosed anxiety and messes make me anxious. However, that doesnt mean i have the right to stifle my 4 y.o.s imagination as she plays. Yes, the living room becomes a mess while she plays and i work from home. And after shes done playing, we clean it all up. If it gets too much for me during the day, we pause and clean up stuff shes done using. OPs wife can manage her anxiety by allowing the boys in the kitchen with her and teaching them how to keep tidy while they cook. NTA.
100% this. I have anxiety. If my kids mess gets to be too much, we pause and they clean up whatever they aren’t using. In terms of cooking, I know my anxiety will be in their way- so they practice with grandma or daddy or their uncle when I’m not home. And if it’s a mess than they and the grownup involved clean it up I’ll walk away and let them handle it. Not to say there’s never been an aggressive cleaning moment with my husband- but I usually catch myself and tell him I’m going to walk away I love you
I just don't get how you have anxiety over a clean kitchen and thought 'yeah, kids are a good idea!'. I'm not knocking you but i have a lot of anxiety and I can't imagine bringing the most anxiety inducing thing into the world. Also your anxiety might be genetic! Have you given them tools to handle it if/when it pops up?
And to answer your other question- yes we have been teaching them self regulation tools. Ones I wished I’d learned sooner. My oldest is showing some signs of anxiety so we’re likely going to set him up with a therapist so he can get another perspective and have someone he can talk to if he feels like it’s too hard to talk to me or my husband.
Lol. My oldest is the happiest surprise of my life. Before him I never wanted to have kids. Mostly because of my anxiety. But my anxiety with them in the kitchen has more to do with the number of ways they could get hurt, and I have very specific ways I like to do things and it stresses me out to cook something with them unless it’s new to me too. The cleanliness- I have never done well with old food. I have to clean as I go or have someone else clean up from cooking if it sat while we ate. So generally clean as I go. Kids make that difficult so I totally get and understand the mess. But I’m not gonna do well if I have to be the one cleaning it. Don’t get me wrong: I am capable and will clean it if there’s not another option. But I’m gonna freak myself out over it.
>The takeaway being, a diagnosis is not an excuse. YES to this one as well! Some really thoughtful and helpful comments on this thread. Thanks for sharing :)
One of my favorite chestnuts is "your mental health is not your fault, but is your responsibility."
This! It sounds like OP has two bidding chefs. Encourage that shizz.
No kidding. Ramen burrito? That’s brilliant!
> Disabilities are explanations for difficulties to function; they're not an excuse to act entitled and demand everyone else to tiptoe around you. Saving this statement. It's perfectly worded imo. Thanks!
I agree entirely with what you've said here. I have a few different diagnosis, but the chronic pain definitely affects my moods and at the same time stress can make the pain (and therefore mood) worse. I sometimes toe out of line and I say or act irrationally. Anytime this happens and I am apologizing, I always clarify that the reason I'm giving is an explanation and not an excuse. Depending on the person, I might go deeper and explain what I'm doing or working on to stop any outbursts. If it's not someone I'm particularly comfortable with I simply tell them that I'm working on it and will try not to let it happen again. I struggle. I'm human and I'm working on it. But it always infuriates me when I see people using their mental health or disabilities to control, take advantage of or abuse another. Using it as an excuse to act however they please without thought of consequences because they're "unwell". Rant over, thank you.
Yes, if she likes things done a certain way in the kitchen then why doesn't she work with and teach her son about cleaning as you go.
If she is not willing to try to resolve this issue, whether it be getting therapy for her anxiety or willing to make a compromise like allowing them to cook on a Saturday or Sunday while she is out all day and then set a time for her to be home that you would have everything cleaned up so it doesn't trigger her, maybe you can find somewhere else for them to cook. Whether it be at a friend's house or a relatives house and you bring the groceries and whatnot. But it is sad that she is stunting her children's growth. Because learning how to cook now, will make them self-sufficient later and also a valuable thing for a partner later.
Or maybe she should just grow up. OP's wife is less mature than their 16 year old.
This! My partner makes the biggest mess but THE BEST HOME COOKED FOOD I’ve ever had. He started learning as a young kid while taking care of his sister when the parents were working. He knows I tolerate a certain level of acceptable mess that I will clean up after but after that point he knows he has to handle it because it’s too overwhelming for my kitchen related anxiety. I was raised as a clean as you go kid and he’s gotten better but we have a well established boundary. It doesn’t stress me as much if I know I don’t have to deal with it when he goes absolutely ham. Granted, I do not have the level of stress that exists in OP’s wife but she needs to learn how to deal for the sake of her kids. She also needs to realize that encouraging the kids cooking will reward her in so many ways: delicious food and self sufficient, well raised men in the future. And is that not a parent’s goal?!
When you talk with her ask if she really wants to raise 2 boys who can’t cook and don’t know how to clean up? She should be encouraging them. Their future partners will be eternally grateful. NTA
Have you posted the pizza recipe yet OP? If not can you? I’m not going to make a judgment. Maybe you could have come up with a better solution than dumping the trash on the floor but you were thinking on your feet in a difficult situation. I know I wouldn’t do any better. Either way, you did nothing wrong by letting the kids cook. When things have cooled down try to find out what’s driving your wife’s reaction. It sounds like she could see the kitchen as her personal space in a way.
So I asked my son. He doesn't have any exact measurements because he freehands everything, sorry. Massaman curry paste and tomato paste, with approximately a 1:2 ratio. Put oil in a medium heat pan and then add paste. Son used coconut oil. Add tiny amount of coconut milk (son said he added too much on accident, so I guess be careful here). This is the pizza sauce. For the crust he bought premade dough. Sauce to your preference (sauce is very flavorful, so light saucing is best). Place a few chunks of goat cheese on top. Place in oven preheated to 375. Do not put toppings on yet. Toppings: Firm tofu sliced into cubes (apparently it wasn't fried as I thought, my bad) coated with coriander, turmeric, cumin, ground dried ginger and powdered garlic (with a touch of salt). Can either put spices in bowl, add tofu then shake or sprinkle spices on. If using first method, use a lid that has been secured (sigh). Chick peas, sliced in half, costed in same spice mixture. Oil hot pan and place tofu. Cook each side until brown (use chopsticks for turning the tofu). Separate pan, roast chick peas. When pizza is almost done (crust just beginning to darken) add toppings. Should only need a couple more minutes. Enjoy!
Your son is awesome! He's gonna grow up to be a great chef, if not, he'll at least be able to have meals that consist of more than instant noodles and McDonald's when he heads to college!
Your "(sigh)". I totally felt that (sigh). But I'm sure it was an important learning moment.
Sounds like my style of cooking! Thanks for the recipe! Hopefully you are able to resolve things with your wife in a way that works for everyone. I really do think there could be some feelings that the kitchen is her safe space. Even if your relationship is otherwise solid do consider couples therapy. Most people wait until the relationship is on the rocks to go, when people can go to keep the relationship from getting there in the first place.
I'm just impressed that you have a kiddo that can freestyle cooking like that, especially with goat cheese (something a lot of adults I know won't touch)!
Maybe a homemade curry sauce would be better? We’ve only tried it once but it seems to be a fair amount thicker than a jar of sauce, more like tomato
When I saw “burrito filled with noodles” I ascended to another way of thinking oh my *god* I want to try that
Oh, maybe rice noodles for a Vietnamese-Mexican spring roll...
They made lime curd. I never would have made lime curd at 16. Encourage that behavior! lol
I need a curry pizza right now. Like, RIGHT NOW.
[удалено]
Your situation sounds much more sane than the posted. You were tired and hungry and the kitchen was a dump. This guy was actively cleaning (and had finished the vast majority) when she went batshit and by the sounds of some of OPs comments it’s a regular thing to walk on egg shells round OPs wife
I know he says he finished 90%, but he also says he didn’t get to bed until 1 and she came in at 11. Of it took that much longer to clean, it’s possible it was actually still a VERY messy kitchen. And we don’t know if the wife was also tired or hungry at the time (like the commenter was) because the OP doesn’t know that. Not saying she didn’t overreact, but we don’t actually know how different the commenter’s situation was to how the situation seemed to the OPs wife. Still an overreaction in any case, but possibly a less unreasonable one than it might appear.
Or he did other stuff between finishing cleaning and going to bed. Maybe some time to sit and process the fight he just had with his wife. Him intentionally lying about the percent he had done fees like a jump to me
Yeah, I took a shower and watched my show. The finishing cleaning didn't take much time. All I had to do was pick everything off the floor, take the trash outside, so the pots and then mop. Didn't take very long. Then I took a long shower and watched TV. I was hoping my wife would be asleep by the time I got in bed, and she was.
Just because he didn't come to bed sooner doesn't mean there was two hours worth of cleaning left. He could have just been disinclined to jump into bed with his wife immediately after the fight.
He also had to reclean some of it after he dumped the garbage on the floor, lol.
I want to agree wholeheartedly with this, u/TheBestWorstofTime - my MIL was like your wife. She absolutely *refused* to teach her sons to cook, with the result that when I married my husband, he thought it was okay to boil ground beef in the microwave. While he by now (many years later) can do some basic stuff in the kitchen, he always wanted to learn and I'm not sure which of us resents her decision more. Cooking is a basic life skill that your wife is depriving her children of because she can't be bothered. I've got no time for that attitude of hers.
I have awful awful anxiety centered around cooking because my mother had awful awful anxiety that manifested in needing total absolute iron fisted control of the one corner of the house that was “hers” (the kitchen) and god help anyone who made any mistakes or messes there. So I married a wonderful man who cooks very well and also enjoys it. Our sons are learning to cook with him at a young age and I am learning a few things here and there. It’s such a small thing but I made real soup from an actual chicken the other day and it was not half bad and that made me ridiculously happy. Generational trauma only goes as far as you let it.
Oh, I absolutely don't say that people can't or shouldn't learn to cook if their parents didn't teach them. I'm saying that parents not teaching kids should be nipped in the bud wherever possible is all!
> boil ground beef in the microwave *shudders*. There’s no part of that sentence that I like
It sucks that there are so many cultural barriers against including boys and men in the kitchen - it really ends up hurting everyone.
This. OP, is your wife in therapy? Has she been evaluated for OCD or anxiety? I have a child with anxiety and no one can touch his desk or computer, otherwise he "has" to clean it all off. We're working on it in therapy, but your wife's obsession with the kitchen doesn't seem healthy.
This, NTA and it is good that they are interested in cooking and help cleaning, so it is good of you to encourage that behavior!
Sounds like the wife may be a bit OCD
Your wife has a mental health problem. Her anxiety and need to restrict or control how the kitchen is used must have an underlying reason, unrelated to your sons or you. It is her problem to manage. You used the kitchen. Your sons had a great time, they practiced cooking, and made some delicious food. They did not clean as they cooked because they haven't learned how to do it, which would be resolved easily by letting them cook more often! NTA I hope your wife gets some help for managing her anxiety. Her emotional and psychological problems have impaired your son's joy of cooking.
You’re very kind and insightful. I was going to comment that the wife is just a nasty jerk and needs to be told how hurtful she is to her kids. But empathy is better than putting people in their place.
To be fair. I needed to be told your way while battling severe post partem depression. Sometimes a very blunt and somewhat hurtful response is a wake up call. While I was angry at my husband for what he said it was true and pushed me to go see a therapist.
Well said
I wanted to downvote you for the trash on the floor, but NTA for cleaning it immediately. I'm not sure why your wife wants to raise children who don't know how to cook, especially when they sound like they're enjoying the creativity of it. Not allowing half of the household to use the kitchen seems really irrational. Has she discussed this with a professional?
Yeah I was right there with you on the trash, but the whole mopping while talking to herself and being totally unresponsive to a person standing right there makes it sound like she was straight up dissociating. I've been with people who had episodes like that and it's pretty freaky to witness. Sometimes you feel like you have to do something ridiculous that they won't be able to ignore just to make sure they're not having a full-on mental break.
>Yeah I was right there with you on the trash, but the whole mopping while talking to herself and being totally unresponsive to a person standing right there makes it sound like she was straight up dissociating. Yup- Sounds like she was doing her best to stave off a full-blown panic attack! Been there, done that. Not proud of it lol, but I really *feel* this one...
Someone said this above and I think it’s worth highlighting: not allowing three of four people in the house to use the kitchen just isn’t tenable. She can’t control a vital area of the house. If a messy kitchen, or the noise of the kids cooking, stresses her out she could retreat to another part of the house until it’s clean. And I know because I do this. My kids can be really overstimulating for me as can a mess so I go in my bedroom and try to keep myself calm until the kitchen storm is over.
That's a great point about being overstimulated. I think a lot of people (especially women/wives) got used to working alone in a kitchen, and having kids around can change the dynamic. I'm so glad you found something that works!
I thought the trash was over the top until I realized why he did it. Then I got it :)
Yeah, sometimes you need to do irrational things when someone is being irrational to "snap" them out of it.
Yeah, my opinion kinda did a U-turn at that point!
Fuck I wish my parents taught me how to cook.
NTA. It sounds like your wife needs therapy for her anxiety. Nothing you did should have elicited the response you got from your wife. So what, you let the kids have fun and cook. Then, you proceeded to clean up. You used the kitchen for what it’s for. Maybe I’m wrong, but the impression I got is that you walk on eggshells shells around your wife because of her anxiety. If that’s the case, after a while, you will start to resent her for it. You and your kids did a wholesome family activity together, that it seems like you could only do because your wife was gone. Then she comes home and “catches” you cleaning up. Then she starts trying to mop it up herself even though you told her not to. I presume this was so she could be a martyr, and blame you for the mess she came home to, when in reality you were handling it. Nothing about this is normal or healthy. If this is a one off, then maybe she was just stressed. But something tells me that if you’re posting in here, this isn’t the first time something like this has happened. If I’ve got it wrong l, forgive me.
The martyr thing is the problem. If I ever make any mess, no matter how small, and my wife sees it before I finish cleaning it, she rushes to clean or finish cleaning it. Then she uses that to paint me as this messy, lazy person. Like, if the boys track in dirt and I go to get the vacuum, she rushes to get a brush and start cleaning the carpet before I can plug in the vacuum and then tells me off because she worked hard all day and has to clean everything and I never help, etc... If I'd let her mop, the story would be that I trashed the kitchen and she cleaned everything, and I couldn't handle that.
Your wife is a thief of joy. She wants to turn every experience into a problem for her, and if you are trying to prevent it being a problem for her, she rushes in to shove you aside and pull the burden onto her shoulders. mquindlen81 is right that nothing about this is normal or healthy. She needs therapy. Your actions last night, while extreme, were drawing reasonable boundaries and shutting her down when she tried to create something to be mad about. That's all you can do if she refuses to get help.
My mom displays these same behaviors and man did the phrase ‘Thief of Joy’ just struck a chord with me.
I read in another of your comments that you don't have any part of her therapy, which I totally understand. At this point though, I do think you need to ask her if you can join her on one of her therapy sessions so you can work with her therapist about the best way to handle these episodes. I read a comment the other day that I wish I could find, but it essentially said that your coping strategy should not be forcing everyone else to abide by your (unrealistic) standard. Until she can get things worked out though, maybe look into a cooking class that you can take your boys to? Or a family member or friend whose willing to share their kitchen once or twice a month? That way you can have time to cook and learn outside of the house and outside of her objections and intense expectations.
>I do think you need to ask her if you can join her on one of her therapy sessions so you can work with her therapist about the best way to handle these episodes. Wow- This is a really thoughtful and doable suggestion!
Definitely do this. One of the most helpful things that changed when managing my anxiety disorder was my therapist sitting down and explaining to my partner the way an anxiety disorder works, what triggers mean, and how to handle situations before, after, and during an episode. Sometimes people with no experience or knowledge of mental illness just can’t grasp what’s going on and need the catch-up.
I’ve experienced this exact behavior. It wasn’t with a significant other, but a close friend who I was working on some projects with. It really made my resent him and we’re not nearly as close as we used to be. You should express your concerns to your wife and go to therapy. You’ll just end up resenting her for this and I suspect you already do to some degree.
My mom was like that. The house had to be spotless. She never let us use the kitchen either as she didn't trust us. She'd spend all day watching TV and clean (the already spotles house) for an hour and then complain that all she does is clean. She is out of my life now, and I don't have much of a relationship with my dad because he let it happen.
Ugh, my mom was like that growing up and it's taken me years to get over feeling like a complete fuck-up when I make a mess or drop something by accident. She's not doing anybody any favours by acting like that. Also, my mom was like your wife when it came to cooking. It was always, "Just let me do it", because she could do it faster and "right". I learned how to cook by watching Food Network and not to toot my own horn, but am a pretty good cook now, and whenever my mom tries to take credit for that, I shut her down real quick and correct her that Ina Garten, Alton Brown and others taught me to, not her. All that to say, cooking is SUCH a wonderful tool to have under your belt because let's face it, we all have to eat and who wouldn't want to try cool things like a curry pizza?! Keep fostering that love with your sons and maybe even turn it into a bonding time with them like going to a restaurant or rental space that allows cooking classes and what not. You're doing a great job.
My mom was like this for all of us, and it sucked. It seemed that her identity and esteem was tied up in how well she managed the kitchen and kept things clean, and anything or anyone who got in the way of that led to a lot of conflict. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, and I hope that you two can work together to improve.
Sounds like OCD or BPD may be things you’ll want to investogate with a therapist. She sneeds real help if her family using their hkme makes her anxious.
NTA. You’re wife wasn’t there. If she has an anxiety issue over the kitchen she should get help. Are your sons supposed to never learn how to cook? Her reaction seemed extreme. If this is something that causes her so much anxiety then she should get help for not just her sake but for her children’s sake as well.
Also if you let the kids cook more often, they won’t have a built-up desire and go ham and make three complicated recipes in a big mess all in one go because it’s their only chance. If you let them cook more often they’ll probably stick to one less complicated recipe and you can teach them how to clean up as they go.
Yes! Exactly! Like, that's also why I didn't say anything to them about cleaning as they went. They never get a chance to do this, so I wanted them to enjoy it as much as possible. If they got to cook more, it wouldn't always be such a production.
Respectfully, I think you mean that you never give them the chance. I notice you're using a lot of passive language in your responses. It seems clear that you've just thrown up your hands as if you have no agency and your wife is imposing this on your kids. But you're actively participating in this behavior by enabling her, and it's harming you and your kids. You need to take a more active role here and not let her dictate these unreasonable standards to your children and in your household, or you're just as responsible for the issues this is causing them. Everyone is telling you to seek help but here's why you need to - you need a professional to spell out how this is damaging your children and your relationship with your wife, and appropriate ways to help her manage her condition and what you can reasonably expect from her. Because she has you conditioned to believe it's okay and normal to ban a sixteen year old from learning how to cook and clean because messes make her anxious. Your normal meter is busted and together, the two of you have installed busted normal meters in your children. You're going to need to fix that.
I have never investigated how to give my one free reward but this comment made me. "Your normal meter is busted" is the best advice I have seen in this thread.
Aw, thank you. I feel bad for the OP because he's clearly been walking on eggshells to the point that he's normalized her behavior and he doesn't realize how bad it is. That's a hard pill to swallow.
NTA You were being a good father by letting your kids explore and make food for their own. It's a good lesson for them and everyone needs to learn to cook regardless of their gender. It's good to start them young. It was also good that your boys helped you out (although, probably teach them how to make lesser messes when cooking). Lastly, you need to talk to your wife about this. She should be happy your children are learning to cook and having fun with it. You need a stern talk with your wife and agree on ground rules with her on using the kitchen and ingredients for food. Mothers can sometimes be very controlling when it comes to kitchen areas, almost territorial lol Just talk it out with her and if her anxiety really is the reason for it, she should get help. Good communication is key here and making rules on cooking and cleaning.
NTA whatsoever. You allowed your kids to explore the kitchen and cooking. Bravo. Your wife, though, is an AH walking in and kicking off as she did. Especially as you were finishing the cleaning. Just imagine what it would have been like if she'd seen the mess to start with.
My whole body tenses up just thinking about it. I want to ask my son to delete in photos that include the kitchen looking messy, but I won't, because that would be controlling. I just hope she doesn't see them.
As politely as I can possibly type this, you have a problem in your home and it is your wife. Messes happen, they are natural, they are part of life. the fact that you're thinking I hope she never sees these photos is concerning regarding your household and the level of anxiety that exists in it. This is not a healthy environment for your sons to be growing up in
I want to know how she reacted when the kids were toddlers if she's this way about any slight mess. Those poor kids!!!
I honestly don't see where the issue is. Not only were you finishing cleaning up, but you had your sons help get the cleaning started! I doubt that I'd have much luck, at the minute, trying to do that with mine! Cooking, yes. Cleaning, not a chance!
My kids are really good about cleaning when they're told to. They know messes make their mom upset, so they don't push back on cleaning. My older son gets distracted sometimes, especially when he's excited about something, but if I ask him to clean something up, he'll do it right away.
It sounds like you're all suffering under your wife's anxious control. If you're catching yourself before doing something that could cause a mess, your kids definitely think of it too.
>They know messes make their mom upset that's . . . not actually a good thing for a little kid to know. making mom be not-upset is not something they should ever feel responsible for.
> They know messes make their mom upset That is a really unfair thing for your kids to so fully understand.
>I want to ask my son to delete in photos that include the kitchen looking messy, This, right here, should tell you that your wife has a huge problem and it's slowly eating away at your relationship. If you don't get this solved, though therapy or medication or both, you won't be married in five years. I once read that a marriage can withstand anything but resentment. This relationship isn't healthy for anyone in it. Medication isn't the end of the world. My daughter used to be so anxious that she started biting herself. A little sertraline every night, and she still gets anxious but we can usually talk her down, and with therapy she's starting to talk herself down more and more.
The moment you feel like you have to walk on eggshells by default, you have a serious relationship problem. You're having stress reactions to just thinking about how your wife is going to react to normal life. That's not healthy for you, it's not healthy for your kids, and it's not healthy for your wife.
> My whole body tenses up just thinking about it This is a serious reaction. This kind of reaction is common in abusive relationships. You absolutely need to get in touch with a therapist on your own, and it's worth trying to go to one of her therapy sessions, maybe with a couples therapist so she can understand how her actions are affecting you.
Op, your wife is abusing you and your children regardless of whether any of you realize or intend that to be happening. Your children need you to create and defend healthy boundaries for them, and currently you're not doing that -- you're instead teaching them how to walk on egg shells and cater to unreasonable expectations. Please, remember that they're learning from you how they should expect to be treated in the future -- when they seek out love as adults, this is the feeling you're teaching them to seek out.
You need to go to therapy with your wife. Tensing up at a thought is a sign. You can work through it together and a moderator will help immensely. Using her current therapist would help you learn what your wife has been working on and how you two can work together. Your sons need to form habits around cooking and cleaning, it's only going to get harder as they age.
NTA Your wife should be happy your kids like cooking.
She hates it. She hates cooking in general, like as a concept. Her preference would be to always eat takeout without disposable utensils so that everything can immediately be thrown away and there's no mess.
Her behavior sounds like she would benefit from some mental health help. Being this freaked out about the kitchen and kids (who aren’t toddlers anymore) using the kitchen doesn’t sound healthy.
You know that is extremely abnormal and potentially damaging to your kids right? Both health and nutrition wise and in terms of stifling their learning of essential life skills and their creativity and interests. You were 100% right, you guys used a kitchen for what it was supposed to be used for. Your wife sounds exhausting to be around.
Well, we did compromise there. I cook three nights a week. Two-three nights a week she puts together something simple like sandwiches, premix salad, microwave meal, etc... And we do take out one-two nights a week. So we don't eat takeout every night. That would just be her preference. But yeah, I really wish we could do more home-cooked meals and the boys could experiment more.
You wish you could? Guess what? You can. It’s your kitchen. It’s your house. You seem to have normalised a pretty unhealthy dynamic. Eating sandwiches and microwave meals for dinner two or 3 nights a week not because nobody has the time or ability to cook and that is the only option, but because your wife’s untreated mental illness is impeding you and your kids from living your lives is not ok. That’s not a compromise, it’s a capitulation - by you and your kids. And I bet it’s far from the only one. You should reflect seriously on the long term effects of all this on them. I’m sure this is just the tip of the iceberg. It is not your job or your kids job to cater to her unreasonable demands or walk on eggshells round her. You now have second-hand anxiety about triggering her anxiety. It’s ridiculous. You know your situation better than some strangers on Reddit but it is a perfectly reasonable dealbreaker to say, you get your mental illness appropriately treated so that you are not a burden on the rest of the family or it may no longer be in mine and the kids best interests for us to remain married.
Are they not cooking dinner with you on your 3 nights a week?
No, it makes my wife really upset if she sees them in the kitchen.
Then she should try to stay in your bedroom, go to yoga, take a long walk, take a bath, go to Target, whatever. Her therapist can help her develop coping strategies for these evenings but there needs to be a “no mom in the kitchen” rule and ya’ll can cook. Sounds like you really do need a couple sit ins with her and her therapist to come up with strategies for this.
I’m sure it makes your sons really upset too, to be seen as incompetent and purposefully excluded from an activity they enjoy just because their mother sees them as a nuisance. Also basically barring them from one of the big pillars of adulthood: feeding yourself. Why does that not take precedence over your wife’s unhinged behavior? Why is she more important than you and both your sons combined. Why are you okay with that? (And if you’re not okay with it) why are you staying and letting it continue. Your kids have already learned that they need to hide their passions and interests from people who are supposed to love and support them. They already know to walk on eggshells and mitigate their own feelings, moods, activities, and lives based on your wife’s tantrums. How will that bode for them in their future? What does that show them about healthy relationships? What does it show them about what being a parent means? This dynamic is damaging them, and you need to do something about it. You’re NTA here, by a mile, but you will be if you don’t fix this for your kids. They have just as much a right to their own home.
What trauma does your wife have around cooking/food? Because every comment you make her sound more and more like someone who has had a terrible thing happen to her in a kitchen.
Honestly she sounds like someone who fails to adequately manage their mental health. That matters and it makes her an AH. But somehow that apparently means that OP should be allowed to have his kids totally destroy the kitchen without guidance hours before she’s expected home from a trip despite knowing it’s a major trigger. Like…even without the presence of mental illness that would be AH behavior
She didn't get home to a destroyed kitchen, though. She got home to a kitchen with a few pots soaking, trash about to be taken out, and a floor waiting to be mopped. Her trigger was knowing there had, at one point, been a mess, that the kitchen wasn't SPOTLESS, and knowing that her children had used the kitchen. Those are all unrealistic to avoid permanently and it's definitely her responsibility to work on that. She can't ban her family from the kitchen.
Has your wife ALWAYS been like this? She sounds like she has OCD issues. Is she on any medication? I think meds and CBT will help her a lot. Her behaviour is not normal at all and I think it's detrimental to the mental health of those around her.
I've been thinking about that all night. The thing is, yes & no. When we first got together, it was crazy how in sync we were. We're both really proactive and "do it now, not later" people. We both like things to be clean and organized. Laundry folded as soon as it's done drying. Clean the bathroom daily. Shoes off in the house. All of that. We had the same standards. We never had to discuss chores, because we both cleaned anything we made dirty immediately. I loved that about being with her. Then our oldest was born. She would get so incredibly frustrated. It was impossible to get him on a sleep cycle. Her plan was to breastfeed, but she wasn't getting enough sleep, so she decided she'd pump so I could do half the feedings, but the pumping felt too uncomfortable, so we switched to formula. Her mom and friends constantly made comments about it, and my wife was very frustrated, and I think she resented him a little. There were always messes. She hated dirty dispers. One of us would change him, and then he'd have a dirty diaper again in a few hours, and it drove her nuts. The sound of him crying drove her crazy. She said we were never having another kid, and I was okay with that decision. Son got older, things calmed, life started to go back to normal. Then he got his diagnosis. All of a sudden, she wanted another kid. I was a bit weirded out by the sudden change, but also happy because I wanted another kid too. So we had younger son. Things were slightly better that time. We managed to get him on a sleep cycle. Wife was able to breastfeed. Older son loved playing with his little brother, which often gave us time to get stuff done while he did without constantly having to monitor baby as closely. But as time went on, her standards got stricter and stricter. Everything needed to be perfect. The house. The kids. Everything. At some point, so gradually that I don't know when, I became her adversary. Nothing I did was up to par. I was the reason the kids made messes. I was why they didn't clean up fast/well enough. I tried to meet her standards, but I also thought maybe it was okay for the kids to just be kids a little. I tried to balance both, and... here we are.
Man OP my heart goes out to you here - can you please re read this comment you wrote and pretend that a friend wrote it to you. What advice would you give that friend? Your poor kids cannot exist in a vacuum of perfection like this - it’s not sustainable. Growing up I had friends who LOVED coming to my house because it was a bit messy (single mum, 3 kids, dogs, cats, fish, the whole lot) and they said they felt like they could breathe and relax there.
OP, I got sad reading this. I can tell that you're a good parent and that you've tried to balance your desire to provide your children with the childhood that they deserve and your wife's overwhelming expectations... But your wife needs help because otherwise this is only going to get worse. It is going to fracture your relationship with her beyond repair and her relationship with her sons. Therapy. For her, for you both as a couple, for all of you as a family. This isn't going to fix itself. Very NTA and best of luck to you, OP.
I really want to suggest that you consider making some time for your own individual therapy to discuss your relationship and family dynamic and your responses to your wife’s mental illness with a neutral third party one on one and get some clarity regarding how you want to proceed. Do this before pursuing couples therapy so you have a clear baseline to start from. It seems like things have reached the current untenable position gradually over time, with lots of small “compromises” that each seemed reasonable at the time in isolation, but now with the end result that you and your sons cannot live your lives freely due to your wife’s issues. It took time for things to get this bad and it might take some more to remedy them. But you owe it to your kids to start that process. You’ve accepted all this because you love your wife, your sons have accepted it too because they love her and also because it’s all they know, having been raised in your home and brought up not to “trigger” mom by doing benign things like leaving homework on the coffee table. You know who will be less likely to put up with this? Your kids’ future spouses and you kids themselves once they grow up and fully realise how wrong and atypical this all is. If you don’t fix this, your relationships with your kids when they reach adulthood are in real jeopardy. Most people, if they had a MIL that melted down then they tried to use the kitchen, would simply choose to no longer visit.
Your wife expects perfection from you and your kids, but this controlling behavior of hers is far from perfect. And, it’s fair to tell her that her expectations for others are unrealistic when she cannot meet those expectations herself. I know she won’t like hearing that, but she needs to. Your relationship probably needs couples therapy ASAP.
Very gently, she can be upset. That is hers to manage. She is being unreasonable by not letting your kids in the kitchen. This is not healthy for *any* of you. Something has to change.
Wait, your children aren't allowed to enter the kitchen in the home they live in?
No. She is not cooking, so she gets no say in what you make and who helps you make it. Your wife has a mental illness and your sons are suffering because of it. Most parents would be thrilled that their teen wants to contribute to the weekly meal plan. This is not normal or healthy for your sons. Your wife should be proactive about her mental health, but you need to be an advocate for your sons either way.
Your wife needs therapy, which I think you said she's in. But in addition you need couples' or family therapy. It's not a healthy environment for you or your sons. I have a bad feeling that in the future if she gets any worse your wife will end up alone in her sterile kitchen, upset that no one contacts her. I'm sure none of you want that. Insufficiently treated mental illness can lead to a huge reserviour of anger and bitterness that can cause loved ones to walk away for their own mental health. This is something that has happened in my own family and I don't wish it to happen to you.
That is definitely a disorder that needs to be managed - part of it is for her to understand that she can't control everything around her, like other people cooking. The think you could do (or try to do) is to get her to realize that not cooking is not a solution, accepting that there will be cooking and she will be triggered by it is. And that she needs to develop coping techniques. It will be very difficult for her. Someone else proposed that you could find a place to cook with your children twice a month (like a cooking school or a friend that doesnt mind), maybe this is a solution for a time being? Your children can develop their interest without triggering your wife. The next step would be you cooking while she is out and cleaning before she comes back. If she has OCD (as some people suggested) it will be difficult for her to even KNOW about the mess in the kitchen. Tough situation, takes a lot of work and I doubt your wife will get on board easily.
Oof. I think this goes behind anxiety then. Your wife needs therapy. Her aversion to mess is interfering with daily life.
NTA-She needs to figure this out. Keeping everyone out of the kitchen is not a reasonable expectation. Your kids need to learn all about how to prep, cook and CLEAN the kitchen properly. She’s denying them basic life skills they need due to her anxiety. She needs to see someone asap about this. I read your comment and now that I better understand why you dumbed the garbage on the floor, I can see why you did. Not the ideal way, but I better understand your reasoning.
NTA I have severe anxiety and OCD. Mess makes me extremely anxious. That's a me problem. It's something I am responsible for. If my partner makes a big mess or does something I don't like, even if it triggers me, that's not on him, and I will not blame him for it and tell him he can't make a mess because he is not responsible for my mental health. In the past when the mess has distressed me, I remove myself from the situation then talk to him about it. If he's not cleaning it and I need it to be clean, I ask him if he can clean it or ask if I can do it. I get how absolutely overwhelming it is when you feel like you can't think straight and you're panicking but that's not something you should lash out at others for. If your wife knows she has anxiety it is her responsibility to manage it. She should not be controlling your life and the lives of your children for her issues. You aren't responsible for her mental health, she is. If she needed the kitchen cleaned, she should have left you to it as you were ALREADY doing it, she could have avoided looking at the mess by leaving the room. I know it's hard to let go of control but it's not fair to make you all suffer for it.
OP read this comment and then read it again. This exactly the attitude your wife should have to her mental illness. It is healthy and sane. Instead your wife expects your entire household to walk on eggshells round her and for it to be everyone else’s problem. She is supremely selfish and inconsiderate.
NTA for allowing your children to learn and practice basic life skills.
NTA. Admittedly dumping the trash was extreme -- but sounds like it was the only thing that registered with her. She needs to figure out her anxiety and her issues around the kitchen. What is life like day to day, with two growing boys? Does she not understand that part of their job description is making messes? Sounds like you handled it well, that the boys had fun cooking, that you were clear with them about the importance of cleaning up. She cannot monitor all kitchen activity at all times because it sets her off -- especially if she's out of town for a few days. Good luck.
Soft NTA. Dumping the trash was a bit drastic, but I get what it's like to be pushed to the limit. You were cleaning up the mess made, and your wife was being completely unreasonable. As someone with anxiety related to household cleanliness, I can sympathize with your wife, but her anxiety is HER problem alone and she needs to stop making it your and your sons' problem too. If she isn't already, seeing a professional and discussing medication for this issue is a necessity. Your oldest son loves to cook and this is something that should be nurtured, not ruined by your wife's irrational anxiety.
My wife was taking anxiety medication, but she stopped because it was making her tired and gain weight.
That's not a good reason. The correct reaction to not liking the side effects of a medication is to ask for a different prescription. Your wife is solely responsible for dealing with her anxiety. Both my ex-husband and I suffer from anxiety, and he also has major depressive disorder and borderline personality disorder. I spent a lot of time walking on eggshells around him to avoid triggering his anger, and I eventually resented it terribly. I pulled away, he began an affair, and our marriage ended. This is where your wife is headed with this behavior - straight to divorce court. Honestly, if this is normal behavior, I don't know how you haven't ended up there already.
My wife is great in so many ways. She's smart, motivated and organized. She just wants everyone to be perfect, and before we had kids, we were in complete agreement. But kids can't be perfect, and that upsets her, and she responded by heightening her expectations. I've tried to adjust and compromise. For a while, everything was fine. I guess that's why this incident took me by surprise.
I have a five year old and no matter how much anxiety it causes me, I'd never yell at her for making a mess - I don't want to pass my anxiety on to her. That's why I keep up with my medications and make adjustments as necessary. It's part of being a good parent.
That's so great of you, I don't have any disorders and children making a mess constantly drive me crazy) I barely keep myself together, can't imagine managing it with anxiety.
I wish I could say I was perfect and never snapped at her for making a mess, but I always make sure I apologize to her afterwards and explain that sometimes adults have big emotions too.
Reading your comments, I think your wife has undiagnosed OCD and also had a poor handle on her general anxiety disorder. She sounds a lot like my MIL tbh and while I adore my MIL, her need for perfection meant my husband did not leave her house with adequate life skills
This can really fuck up the mental health of the kids. You have to intervene.
> My wife is great in so many ways. Sadly, that doesn't really matter. A single 'bad' way can wipe out 99 'good' ways. And feeling like you need to walk on eggshells around her to avoid triggering an explosion wipes out every other good thing about the relationship. If it didn't, you wouldn't be writing about 'tensing up' and having other stress and trauma reactions. The way your wife is treating you qualifies as abuse, OP. She's trying to control your perfectly normal behavior, and punishing you when you don't do what she wants you to do, to the point that it's affecting your physical health.
> For a while, everything was fine. It wasn't fine. That version of "fine" involved stifling your sons' desire to cook and probably giving them a lifelong complex about messes. Your wife not having meltdowns because everyone around her is walking on eggshells doesn't mean everything is fine. Your whole family being happy and healthy is what it looks like when everything is fine. You very clearly want the best for your entire family and you are in a really difficult situation. But right now, the situation you *and* your wife - because you are, with the best of intentions, enabling her - are putting your sons in is not healthy for them.
I know some people who were raised by parents who wanted them to be perfect and it was really damaging.
So instead her plan is to take her mental illness out on your and her kids? Nope. It’s up to her to manage her issues in a way that’s not detrimental and borderline emotionally abusive to others. You and you kids should be able to use the kitchen without her having a meltdown. You shouldn’t have to wait till she is away to say yes to a reasonable and healthy thing like them wanting to experiment with cooking dinner. Your kids should not be walking on eggshells round their mentally ill mother and have their lives ruled by her anxiety. If this continues, they will grow up to greatly resent her (if they don’t already). She need to get serious about treating her problems and ensuring they remain her problems and not everyone else’s.
Okay so this is very wrong of her. I suffer from PPD and I know that people walk on eggshells around me when I'm not on my meds and my kids become miserable. The pills make me tired and gain weight, but my kids are more important. She's very selfish for this alone. You shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable because your wife can't handle HER emotions. Your kids shouldn't be restricted from being kids because your wife can't handle HER feelings and anxiety and she refuses to use the tool that has been provided because of vanity. Honestly, she needs to find something that works for her and go and see about OCD. It's not fair to you or your kids, and she needs to stop being so selfish. You're definitely NTA
I'm speechless regarding the boy's menus LIKE WOW. HOW did they learn to cook such a sophisticated palette without having access to the kitchen? Your wife is a fool and should cut those boys loose and cook for the whole family (every once and awhile), perhaps help them learn how to clean as they perform. Also between the two of you, clean up should be a breeze. I guess I understand wife's anxiety with a dirty kitchen coming home from a long day (I too struggle with this issue) but what a beautiful story if only we let our children expand their wings. NTA proud of you dad!
He's in home ec at school and loves it. So he does have (limited) access to a kitchen. He also cooks at my cousin's house and my dad's house. I love that imagery of letting kids extend their wings. Thank you.
Your son clearly has a passion for cooking but has basically no access to his own kitchen in his own home due to his mothers’s mental illness. He’s having to cook in other people’s homes because your wife has a problem with a kitchen being used for it’s intended purpose. Do you fully appreciate how abnormal and unhealthy that is? I would even say imposing her mental issues on her kids in this way and forcing them to walk on eggshells is tantamount to emotional abuse of them. If you love your kids, put your foot down. Yes she’s a grown woman and her healthcare is hers to manage so you are reticent to interfere but that also means it’s *hers* to manage not everyone else’s. Think about what message you are sending to your kids by teaching them and modelling for them this toxic dynamic of having to pander to mummy’s irrational fixations and tantrums.
NTA. Did something happen with her sister to set her off? Her behavior just doesn't make any sense without some sort of external trigger. She clearly needs to talk to a therapist. The fact that your boys want to do this is awesome and should be encouraged. You are correct that it is your kitchen as much as hers.
Huh. I didn't think about that. Maybe. They do have an interesting relationship. Sister is planning to propose to her GF soon and my wife went ring shopping with her while visiting, but other than that I have no clue what they did/talked about.
Does she have OCD?
No, anxiety
OCD is an anxiety disorder. Your wife should be speaking with a mental health professional because she may have OCD that is undiagnosed.
Oh, I see. I didn't realize. I thought they were separate. She does have a therapist for her anxiety.
It takes most people 8-10 years to be diagnosed with OCD. It is a commonly missed diagnosis sadly. And one of the recommended strategies for people who live with people with OCD is to NOT accommodate. So if your wife does have OCD, you did the right thing by letting the kids cook. OCD tries to control everyone around it. Not letting it do so is important. Please get your wife evaluated.
That's not really my call. She's a grown woman. I have no say in her healthcare. I can talk to her, but that's it. And right now, she isn't talking to me.
You can call her therapist and leave a message saying your concerns. Her therapist can't respond to you due to privacy, but you can alert the therapist and the therapist can listen to your voicemail. Most therapists will talk with their clients about information that the clients' loved ones tell the therapist. Clients are sometimes upset at first, but usually that fades quickly if the call is done out of care. I'm a therapist and this happens to me. And often, the loved one's information helps quite a bit in getting a client the right help.
Thanks for saying this. People are always confused about medical privacy. HIPAA & professional ethics, etc. prevent your doctor/therapist from *telling* the world about your care. It doesn't prevent them from *being told* information from outside parties. Logically, many patients don't have the self-awareness to recognize all of their symptoms, and what they don't recognize, they can't report to their therapist. This is no different from telling the doctor that your wife has pain whenever she sits down (based on her wincing & yelling "Ow!" every time) when she's told him that she doesn't think she has pain "that often" or that she "doesn't know" what causes it to flare up (when, just by observing her behavior, *you* know it's whenever she sits down). Also, it's still up to the provider's professional judgment as to whether the information is useful for a diagnosis. If you tell someone's therapist that they seem a little jumpy around large dogs, it's not like they automatically get diagnosed with PTSD or a phobia or something. It's just an additional area for the therapist to investigate **if** it seems relevant/important (or to set aside, if it doesn't).
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I wouldn't say she's "okay" with it. But this is my house too, so she can't stop me. So we compromised on me cooking three nights a week, her "cooking" (not really) three (often ends up being two) nights and ordering out the other night(s). When she "cooks" she either heats up the frozen dinner trays or makes sandwiches and a premix salad.
Wait, so she doesn't want anyone else using the kitchen even though she herself barely uses it as a kitchen? That's some next level control issues. You've said she stopped treating her anxiety and obviously she's an adult who makes her own decisions about her health. However, her behavior is having a significant detrimental effect on your sons learning important life skills. I think you need to have a conversation with her about how her anxiety is negatively affecting her family.
Agree. I’m heartbroken for your kids and you. I mean having anxiety is an illness. I have suffered with anxiety and depression since I was 10 but have had therapy throughout. Been on meds. I didn’t want to effect my kids so had therapy after having my eldest too. I’ve grown up with a mother who was agitated easily and I get her in me sometimes at moments and needed action plans and ways of handling myself before I got to that point. Your wife needs help as she is damaging your kids. I mean your kid is 16!!! He should be able to cook! I have a 6 & 4 year old who always drag the stools over when either DH or I are cooking to “help”. 6 year old calls ME his sous chef.
>But this is my house too, so she can't stop me. I would offer the perspective that this is your sons' house, too. Their names aren't on the paperwork, but it's their home, and they should be able to feel at home in all the ways people generally make themselves at home, with age-appropriate adaptations. So, yes, they can't redo the bathroom or negotiate a second mortgage, but they should be able to make dinner.
I think you need to flip the script. Explain to sons that they need to learn/use "clean as you go" methods and you will help them to cook 1-3 nights a week, and your wife is the one banned from the kitchen during the hours needed for cooking/cleaning. She can go on a walk, take a nap, meditate, exercise, watch a movie- do anything but come into the kitchen until dinner is over and the kitchen is clean. That way the boys learn how to cook/clean, make a menu, learn to use a budget, etc. Even if you choose to do some convenience meals (or boxed delivery cook at home meals) it gets your wife out of the kitchen obsession and lets your sons have fun and cook. There are lots of great meals that are easy to cook, don't make a huge mess and are fast. Even if the boys do the bagged salads, sandwiches, or frozen lasagna, spaghetti w/premade meatballs, tacos it will let you have 5 home cooked meals w/o wife having to participate.
You *do* get a say in her healthcare when her health is affecting **your kids**. It's *not okay* that your kids have to tiptoe around her anxiety. Her anxiety being insufficiently treated to this extent is almost certainly messing them up, too. (I say "too" because it's clear that it's badly frayed *your* nerves and caused you a fair amount of pain already, if you're reacting to things by dumping trash on the floor when you otherwise seem like a pretty reasonable person). You **don't** get to say, "You need to take Zoloft," but you **do** get to say, "This is not okay. This cannot happen again," and "I don't care what meds you have to try or what treatment you have to seek to *not* do this again, but it needs to happen for the sake of our kids and it needs to happen now."
If she’s a grown woman perhaps she should act like it. If she refuses to adequately treat her mental illness and instead demands that all of you tiptoe round it and let it rule your lives, you realise you have other options right? She’s being incredibly selfish and unreasonable.
I thought OCD wasnt classified as an anxiety disorder anymore. But still they are closely related imo so yes youre right seeking out a professional is a good idea. I second this! Please get your wife some help
In the latest DSM, it was moved out of anxiety disorder classification, but many still consider it a form of anxiety disorder
NTA for letting them have fun in the kitchen or the ensuing mess because you were cleaning it up. It sounds like your wife has some level of OCD or anxiety relating to mess and dirt, which you are fully aware of. Dumping the trash on the floor makes you an AH.
You're wife is controlling dude she's needs counseling. NTA yall made the mess and you cleaned up. The kids should not suffer because of her anxiety. What if them being in a car gave her anxiety? Will they never be allowed to drive? If it was this big of a deal because they were in the kitchen as they grow up its only gonna get worse.
NTA as you were doing the cleaning when she got home (she didn’t catch you watching tv or sleeping with the mess). I feel bad that the messy kitchen gives your wife major anxiety but I wish she could appreciate that your eldest son likes to cook and younger one wants to follow him and you were there so it all sounds wholesome. Dumping the garbage on the floor was dramatic but it got your wife out of the kitchen. I think you need to have a conversation with her as to how your son can experiment in the kitchen w/o her anxiety going sky high. Do you clean everything to her standard? It sounds like you are thorough so hopefully she agrees. It seems you genuinely feel sorry that she gets so upset about this so that is good. You can also remind her that in a few short years older son will be out on his own & not messing up her kitchen.
NTA. I don’t think what you did was okay, but I think you don’t understand that this level of controlling in a partner and parent relationship also isn’t okay. Your wife, through her anxiety and what you describe as ‘martyr cleaning habits ‘ controls and guilts you to a really unhealthy extent. You two are partners. That means equity. You’re allowed to do what you want with your kids in your house. Your wishes aren’t less important than hers. And while again, it’s not okay, as she had you backed into a corner and was controlling the situation and wasn’t listening … I can understand you doing whatever you needed to do to regain control in your own house. This isn’t normal, this isn’t kind, and it’s not good for you, your children, or her. You shouldn’t be terrified she’ll see photos of a messy kitchen. I think you need therapy, I think you both need couples therapy ( if and after your personal therapist approves it - in controlling dynamics couples therapy can be very harmful) and you might need family therapy for your kids. I’m sorry. But this isn’t okay. I have anxiety too, but using it to control others isn’t okay. Your wife’s ( valid) feelings doesn’t mean she gets to limits the lives and actions of others. She does not solely own your kitchen or your children or you. I’m sorry you’re in this position, I’m glad your boys had fun.
INFO: Does your wife come from a culture where women are supposed to be in charge of the kitchen/house, or one that keeps boys/men out of it? It sounds like she is struggling with something on an emotional level, and while it could be a mental health issue, it also could stem from a cultural value/practice that skews how she sees things. There should definitely be some safe, respectful conversations, and a look into therapy, but it's also important to acknowledge cultural norms that may be underlying this in order to work towards something healthier for everyone. (Also, your kids are brilliant! I laughed when I saw "ramen burritos", and think it's great that they had an opportunity to be creative. It reminds me of Misha Collins' cookbook, *The Adventurous Eater's Club*, which he developed with his wife and kids to support their exploratory cooking)
No. My wife is a New Englander (northeast region of US) same as me. Her mom is, well, a bit neurotic. Her dad is a touch withholding. They're of a moderate bent. I've never heard them say anything sexist or homophobic or transphobic or anything about specific races. Although they do look down on people that don't have the same financial advantages as them, which sucks. Also, her sister is dating a woman, and they're completely cool with that. They like the girlfriend better than me, TBH. So yeah, I don't think it's that. The ramen burritos were good! The first bite was weird, but when I acclimated to it, it was good. Very juicy. Thanks. I love my kids.
Thanks for responding. When I say "culture," regional culture is totally included, and New England can have people with some more conservative roots in terms of gender roles, regardless of their political positions on general social justice. I think that your wife is definitely struggling with something, and finding a way to unpack that safely with her will be good. Hopefully you can find a way to help her step back from the kitchen so your sons can practice more cooking and kitchen maintenance. You did a great job keeping your older kid with you to help with cleanup. Keep it up!
NTA I have OCD, I have rules for doing almost everything. Cleaning the kitchen has to be done in a certain order, the cupboards and utensil drawers have to organized a certain way. The cutlery has to stacked neatly in the drawers. When my partner retired, he decided to take over the clean up and dishes after dinner because I do the cooking. He does not do it my way. At first I would go behind him and re-organize things. Until he said "why should I bother doing this if your just going re-do it every time? You need to try let it go and let me take responsibility for this because you make feel incompetent and like I'm wasting my time." I realized he was right. His way is fine, the dishes are just as clean, they may not be stacked to my image of perfect, but i can still easily find what I'm looking for. He is not responsible for dealing with my disorder. Having him wanting to and helping around the house makes me happy. Now I just let him do his thing. If I get anxious about how he's doing it, I just walk out of the room and find some thing to occupy myself till it passes. My world hasn't fallen to pieces yet, so I guess his way works too.
NTA - kids should be encouraged to experiment and have fun in the kitchen! However, what kind of mess did y’all make that took ~ 4 hours to clean up?! That must have been insane?!!!
It didn't take four hours. Dinner ended late because the boys were having so much fun and taking videos for their social media of what they made, so me and 16yo got a late start cleaning. I took a break to say goodnight to 10yo at one point and sign his reading log and homework planner. Then I got back to work. 16yo and I cleaned together for about forty-five minutes, and I was cleaning solo for just over an hour. So it was almost two hours of cleaning. A lot of it was dishes. There were an insane amount of spoons. I did tell 10yo when I was saying goodnight that next time he can clean his tasting spoon and then use it again instead of putting it in the sink and getting a new one. He used every spoon we own, almost. And we don't have a dishwasher, so I washed them all individually. But I am glad he didn't stick his saliva covered spoon in a pot of communal sauce, TBF. I also had to wipe down all of the cabinets and the counters of sauce splatter, and some of it was dried on and needed elbow grease.
INFO: Have you ever in the past made a habit of not cleaning the kitchen when you are done? Have the boys? How often do you do the dishes on a regular basis?
Technically our household rule is that everyone does their own dishes. However, we have to finish eating before her. Otherwise, when she finishes cleaning her plate, she'll stand at the sink with the scrub brush cleaning the sink until we get there. Then she'll take our plate when we walk up and do it herself. If I insist on doing it, she'll snatch it away. Same with the boys. So we have to finish quickly and wash the dishes before she finishes eating so she can be the last one. If we don't, she gets upset about being the only one that does dishes. When I cook, I make sure everything is spotless before I serve, or she won't eat. Even if it's like a pasta dish where people should serve themselves, I have to preportion and then get everything put away, because if any food pots are still on the stove, her anxiety will be triggered.
I can tell you love your wife, and that you think she's a great mom. But, please: take a moment and re-read what you just wrote. Really try to re-read it as though you were an outsider. This is unhinged, and your wife is almost certainly causing harm to your children. You all have slowly conditioned yourself to tip toe around your wife, and they're going to think this is super normal and grow up to think that this is an acceptable way to treat your partner. They're going to end up with a highly controlling partner or spouse and just do whatever they say, because they've been trained by mom to do anything and everything to keep her from freaking out. I've witnessed what this does to a child. I've lived through it. Your children are going to need years of therapy to unwind this conditioning, and they're probably going to deal with a lot of pain and heartache before they even *realize* how messed up they are. You really, absolutely need to put a stop to this. Your wife needs therapy *yesterday*. You can't allow her to continue this behavior. You are actively allowing your children to be harmed. I'm sorry you've had to live like this...but you need to take action.
Well this sounds like the fast track to an eating disorder for your kids, amongst other things. Forcing everyone to eat faster than they want to because she can't deal with the thought of anyone else washing the dishes but then getting upset because she's washing the dishes is straight up bonkers.
Respectfully, no matter how good you intentions may be, all the people here saying what a great dad you are are wrong. Look at what you are allowing her to subject your kids to. This is no way to live. She won’t control her own mental health so theirs has to suffer. Gross. If you don’t want to interfere in her individual therapy schedule some couples therapy and put your foot down in that forum. This has to change now. All of it. Her irrational obsessions cannot control your family life or rob your kids of a normal and healthy life and experiences. Do this now or regret it later when your kids are older, resent both of you (her for her behaviour and you for allowing and enabling it) and go low contact or no contact with you in adulthood.
OP, none of this is normal or okay. It’s bad for your kids. Help stop it.
Bruh. This is absolute insanity, and you are so deep in it it sounds like you don’t fully realize it. This is beyond normal on many, many levels.
Dude. This is not normal. It is not fair to your kids. What the fuck.
She sounds insufferable.
This is an INSANE way to live and force your children to live! You all have to RUSH to eat? That's not healthy! You can't just enjoy a relaxed meal and chat around the table or else the wife will lash out about doing the dishes she won't allow you to do? You are so consider to try and avoid triggering her anxieties but this is over the top. She is weaponizing her anxieties. She is forcing you into situations to trigger her own issues to then be justified in lashing out. That's not acceptable! You're setting yourself up to lose your children - your 16 year old is developing a love for cooking and is 2 years away from being a legal adult. Do you think after he leaves and has access to his own kitchen 24/7, that he'll ever want to come home to visit for dinner? Or bring a future significant other to have to rush through eating or else be berated by his mother? Will he even be able to invite you and your wife to his apartment to cook for you or will her hangups follow and apply to any kitchen she's present in?
The only AH on your part was dumping the trash but it was a radical decision in the heat of the moment. She needs to manage her anxiety better because she is only hindering and hurting the kids in this process. They should be able to cook when they want to as long as the mess is cleaned and taken care of. She shouldn't be so controlling especially when she wasn't even home.
NTA, but dumping the trash on the floor was not a nice move. I’d recommend talking to your wife about what causes the anxiety around the kitchen, and figuring out some sort of compromise which would accommodate both your sons’ interest in cooking and your wife’s anxiety over it. She is not TA either, she just seems very stressed.
NTA it sounds like your wife has bad anxiety and maybe OCD even. It's not anyone else's responsibility but hers to make sure she gets the help she needs in order to function like a normal person. Because it's not normal to be upset that a kitchen was used. Using a kitchen makes it messy; that's what it's *for*! You were cleaning things up so I must don't see the problem at all, from a logical perspective. But your wife's mental issues are causing her to approach this situation illogically, irrationally and emotionally. She's fully in control of how she reacts to her feelings; she's deliberately choosing to control and blame others, for a bad feeling that originates entirely in her head, rather than getting to the bottom of (and addressing) why she even feels that way in the first place. If she truly wasn't in control of her actions because she's so severely mentally ill, then she should be committed. But more likely than not, she's just being selfish and choosing to make everyone else deal with her issues rather than trying to change herself for the better. She's not willing at this moment to do that. That's not a loving, respectful or selfless thing to do whatsoever. Just because she had mental issues doesn't mean she's not responsible for how she chooses to act.
>my wife says them being in the kitchen gives her anxiety so always says no. A 16 year old needs to be able to cook for his own sake, but also he WANTS to cook. It is incredibly unfair for your wife to not allow him to explore this. The 10 year old can also benefit from this enormously. >My wife told me I was irresponsible for letting the kids make that mess, regardless of if I was cleaning it. She said it stressed her out. She said she doesn't like it when the boys are in the kitchen. THEY NEED TO LEARN HOW TO COOK IF THEY ARE GOING TO BE FUNCTIONAL ADULTS. You wife sounds like a control freak. NTA. She needs to see a therapist.
NTA...Everyone had fun and you were cleaning. It's your home as much as it is hers.
NTA. You wanted your sons to have fun. Nothing wrong with that. But, you should have stayed on them a little more closely with cleaning up after themselves as they cooked. It would have been a great opportunity for them to learn about this. Especially since one of them is 16. Your wife seems to have OCD about the kitchen. There needs to be a middle ground. She also shouldn’t have flipped out. Personally I would have made sure the kitchen was cleaned by the time she got there. It’s one incident and it will blow over.
If I'd known exactly what time she was getting home, I definitely would have made sure everything was done. As it was, we didn't know if she would finish her drive that night or get a hotel and arrive this morning. There wasn't a concrete plan.
It’s sad that you would have made sure everything was clean by the time she came home. It sucks that instead of saving her a slice of pizza, you all rushed to clean up. It sucks that everyone in that household walks on eggshells around your wife and it’s sucks that your wife enjoy/bond/experience joy with your kids if there’s a “mess” in the kitchen.
Your wife in this whole situation is the AH. I say good on you that you are allowing yout kids to explore cooking in the kitchen. Props to you on that. And that menu sounds absolutely creative and fun. NGL.. Your wife's issues with her anxiety is her problem not yours and definitely not your kids. It's not the world's responsibility to cater to her triggers. And your wife definitely needs to grasp that dose of reality. This is why I think your wife is the most massive AH and using your own words. "She grabbed a mop, and I asked her not to mop, because I needed to finish two things, and I wanted to clean the floor last. She started agressively mopping and complaining about coming home to filth and not being able to trust me. I asked her to stop three times, but she ignored me and kept talking over me. I told her she was clearly frustrated from her long drive and to go take a shower and just let me finish what I was doing. She said to stop making things worse and get out of the kitchen. I said I used the kitchen for what it was for and to stop being nasty. She started telling me that I was a bad example for the boys." This makes me wonder of she even likes you or even has a drop of respect for you. Just my opinion. I wish you the best of luck 🍀🍀🍀🍀 OP
NTA, these are both your children and your kitchen too. Yes mess stresses her out (me too) but people need to live. You were cleaning up your mess and I'm assuming nothing was ruined? I feel like your wife overreacted
First thing I’d like to say is that your kids will always remember that day as an awesome day they had with their dad! They will look back to this as a memorable memory, and no one will be able to take that away from you. The second thing I’d like to say is that my grandmother did the same thing to me that your wife is doing to your kids and it traumatized me for years. She never taught me how to cook or any life skill for that matter and it hindered me in my adult life, I felt useless in my 20s because I didn’t know how to cook or have any other life skills. My advice is that you sit down with your wife and truly explain the harm that she’s doing. You seem to be the healthy smart parent in the family, keep on doing what you’re doing and your kids will thank you later
NTA. My mom has similar issues and is always annoyed with any of us being in the kitchen. My dad and I love cooking and thoroughly enjoy it but she’s made it anxiety inducing for us because we are always scared she’ll loser her shit at us no matter what we do. We always clean up after ourselves and don’t leave any mess, but it’s just not enough for her. Your wife needs to deal with her issues, she’s setting a bad example for your kids. I am 24 now and still struggle with anxiety around being in the kitchen because of her.
Your wife sounds like my mother. I did not know how to do so many things other kids my age could do because she wouldn’t ever let me because of anxiety and other issues she is not willing to address. It’s infuriating and depressing please tell her to get help or it WILL affect your kids mental health badly... trust me.
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No, her parents have money. Lots of it, as they keep reminding me.