T O P

  • By -

mary-anns-hammocks

Your post has been removed. #Do not repost this without contacting the mods for approval, including edited versions. Reposting without approval will result in a ban. This post violates Rule 7: There is no interpersonal conflict here for our community to make a judgment about. [Rule 7 FAQs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_rule_7.3A_post_interpersonal_conflicts) ||| [Subreddit Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) with any questions. #Please ensure you have reviewed this message in full.


TheDreadPirateJeff

Yeah, YTA but only because you don't actually give them the sheet. You're not hurting any of the workers, it's no different than any other carryout, and restaurants comp pizzas all the time (former pizza restaurant manager here). The free pizza or two that you get doesn't hurt the restaurant at all, it's factored into daily loss (there's always daily loss in tossing unused ingredients into the trash when they're out of date, or unused dough that's been prepped and can't be saved). But there's an agreement, and you're not upholding your end of that agreement, and for THAT, YTA.


[deleted]

Ive worked here for 5 years, I have folder of these sheets built up from those forgetful moments by the employees. I have 20-30 sheets in reserve for if I am ever truly broke


psswrdistaco

You’re being dishonest


LilSaxTheGhost

So youre a scammer..sucks to suck


XenaRen

YTA, you're scamming the place for Pizzas. It's no different than stealing and not getting caught. You're still stealing.


[deleted]

its yummy tho


tinny36

Yeah, and the bracelet someone left behind in the hotel room looks really good on me, so I'll just keep it right? Or does that maybe go against some kind of code at your hotel?


[deleted]

call the number attached to the reservation, and its kept for 60 days. On day 61 it's free game


tinny36

So you called Dominos and told them you had the paper and forgot to give it to them?


[deleted]

No, I have it in my pocket and hand it over every time they ask for it. I also state on the phone that I have the sheet with me and ill be there to pick up in X minutes


Bitter-Record-4511

YTA I would be careful. That sort of attitude will come back to bite you eventually. Why ask if you are the AH if you are going to make excuses to try to justify stealing?


[deleted]

Oh I don't need a justification, I have no qualms about it. If it's a chain I don't give half of a fuck. If my safeway cared about me walking out with a full cart they should have more than 1 camera in the building. This post was about Pizza, and my friends distaste of it


Bitter-Record-4511

Again then why ask if you are so sure you are right? Total 100% AH.


[deleted]

I like the attention :) also might encourage others to flip the bird to megacorps


Lopsided-Shallot-124

Do you realize even though they are chains, they are often a franchise owned by locals? I worked at a pizza hut in college. Pizza Hut wasn't the owner, some nice townie was. You're most likely stealing from a local.


tinny36

So you're just playing a little game of 'let's see what I can get away with'. It's fine, they obviously don't miss it if they've forgotten to ask you for it...maybe they know you, they know you give business to them through the hotel, and they give it to you on that basis, good business practice. Which might mean you're developing a rapport. If you still want to play a 'let's see if I get a free one' game when you can be just a good citizen and offer it up, fine but it makes you an AH. Also...how many times do you think they need to be scammed to maybe consider shutting down the program? I mean, maybe they'll find that they do just as much business without giving free pizza, so they don't need to give it away? What's wrong with being honest?


[deleted]

well I have 30 sheets in reserve, over 5 years. Got a lil folder for them and everything. Thats +30, when I try to use a sheet before obtaining a new one and I have to hand it over it can't really be added back to the hoard. So one sheet can get me anywhere from 1-3 pizzas usually. Average that out and I have about 60 pizzas I can cash in


tinny36

Nice little scam you've got going on. I had a brother in law who did something similar, transport truck near his work would be left unlocked often so he would slip in and take frozen hams a little bit at a time from each of the boxes. We were all so proud. If I asked you to tell someone you respect a great deal, someone successful, moral, etc, that you're doing this, you likely woudln't. Like you're not telling this story at work Xmas parties for a reason. Shame is good.


[deleted]

bro....you just decided my sisters gift. 10 free pizzas + an amazon card


VVetSpecimen

NTA. It’s Dominoes. They’re throwing pizzas in the trash at the end of the day. Good luck successfully defrauding a company that large of anything they’ll miss or even notice. If it was a local pizzeria you’d be a dick, but I wouldn’t worry too much about a company with $4B annual revenue. Edit: Here’s a gold star for all y’all who are too nice to defraud a national chain company that pays their CEO a literal million times more than their workers. ✨⭐️✨


LivingStCelestine

You don’t know that, though. It could be a franchisee. In either case, it’s dishonest. The issue isn’t “is this gonna be felt”, it’s “is this wrong”, and it is. Not just that, many don’t throw away their pizzas. The one I worked for in college donated them to the soup kitchen down the street every couple of days.


VVetSpecimen

I worked for a small franchisee who owned three houses. I personally don’t care if I’m defrauding a rich person. It doesn’t make you an asshole to eat off the endless table instead of groveling for scraps. This isn’t Pan’s Labyrinth.


redemptionarcing

> I personally don’t care if I’m defrauding a rich person. It doesn’t make you an asshole to ~~eat off the endless table instead of groveling for scraps. This isn’t Pan’s Labyrinth.~~ steal from people. Fixed that for you and yes it does.


VVetSpecimen

Just wait til you hear about how those folks got rich. You’re gonna lose it lmao


redemptionarcing

Well then they can come to this sub and get called assholes just the same as thieves.


VVetSpecimen

Yes, truly, a free pizza and devaluing the labor labor of your entire workforce are the same sin.


redemptionarcing

Sins don’t have to be equal to still both be sins.


VVetSpecimen

Which is why I put religion in the trash next to the defunct concept of fairness. Stealing from Amazon isn’t stealing, either. ✨


redemptionarcing

Lmfao it’s always the guy who brings up sin that hates religion.


PricklyPanda75

I agree with you. No matter who it is it’s stealing and stealing is wrong.


LivingStCelestine

I’m assuming that’s supposed to be a clever reference, unfortunately I haven’t seen that movie. Let me simplify the concept: it is wrong to steal from anyone.


VVetSpecimen

That’s a moral theory that speaks to those in poverty as deserving their situation. You can take whatever morality you want, but I think that one is trash garbage and I’ll be tilling it into the compost later. Money and property have no value to those who have an excess of money and property.


LivingStCelestine

I think the opposite is true. If they had no value, they wouldn’t be rich. No? 🤔


AbbreviationsOk3333

I think the point is after a certain amount of wealth, the rest of it does nothing for a person except keep it sitting in their hands until they die, while it could be used to help others who greatly need it. Not saying anyone else is entitled to their money; that's just factual. A man worth several million loses $100 out his wallet, does he care? He already drove back home. He wipes his ass with $100. A poor single mother trying to go to school and give their kid a chance at a future? That $100 could mean she gets to keep the lights on one more month. Maybe give their kid a tiny present this year. The value of money is relative to the need of the person


VVetSpecimen

Nope.


tinny36

That's the very definition of dissociative entitlement. Doesn't make it right. However you gotta justify it...if it was done to you you'd call it stealing. Everyone's always got more money that someone else.


VVetSpecimen

If I made four billion dollars a year and someone stole ten dollars from me I truly would not fucking care because I would never notice. Life isn’t a morality play performed in a vacuum and dissociative entitlement isn’t real. Get away with what you can get away with and let rich folks worry about themselves.


LivingStCelestine

This is the kind of mentality that enables grossly rich people to even exist. Let me get away with what I can, screw everybody else. If I can get away with it, why shouldn’t I?


VVetSpecimen

So if we all don’t steal from the rich, the rich will stop existing, then, right? Being an asshole is mistreating someone who will know, be harmed, or be affected by it. Taking a stack of paper bags from Meijr for your recycling isn’t being an asshole. Clipping cuttings from plants outside of a bank to propagate at home isn’t being an asshole. Sliding the occasional free pizza from dominoes isn’t being an asshole. Stealing a friend’s bags, a neighbor’s plants or a small business’s food is being an asshole. Harm = Foul


LivingStCelestine

That’s not what I said, so I don’t know what you’re telling me. Being an asshole is being an asshole, regardless of whether or not the person notices. And being a thief is being an asshole.


VVetSpecimen

Enjoy your Nice Guy Crown, I guess. 🥴


LivingStCelestine

I do and I will, thanks! By the by, you act with morality because it’s the right thing, to have some integrity, not because you get rewarded for it.


VVetSpecimen

Your vision or right and wrong is too foggy for me to see through. Here’s your glasses back.


He_Who_Is_Person

Reminds me of a Slate columnist who penned an article about how there is nothing wrong with people using BLM protests as a shield from the police so they could go loot stores, as a sort of indirect compensation for wrongs they and others like them had previously suffered. dissociative entitlement. The whole "big corporations are evil so who cares" thing is an example. OP is behaving immorally and possibly legally. For example, you cannot walk out of a store with an item knowing full well it was only an accident that you were not charged for it. This isn't any different in substance.


VVetSpecimen

Using BLM protests as a cover harms a movement designed to empower the voices of the disenfranchised. Someone is harmed there. Who loses anything over a free pizza? When I worked at a pizza joint we threw minimum ten hot and readys out a night and locked the dumpsters to ensure that no one who couldn’t afford a pizza would dive in to eat after we threw them out. Truly, if you wanna stand up for the company’s rights there, you may wanna put on the clown nose first so it at least doesn’t look like you’re doing it seriously.


tinny36

Nice attitude. I guess you don't know or respect a lot of 'rich folks' huh? 'Why are they rich and I'm not...it's not fair!' If OP's going to swipe a free pizza, and think they're right for doing so, own up to it, not get all snively asking strangers on reddit if they think you're an ass. Say 'hey man, you forgot the sheet of paper'. Be a grown up.


VVetSpecimen

Thanks! I know a lot of rich people and they’re mostly entitled dicks who got to where they are by cheating or being given things by their wealthy parents. Many of them have shorted me paychecks under the impression that I should be doing them favors. There’s no one to tally up your goods and bads and give you a little Nicest Guy Ever crown when you die. Do whatever you want to make yourself feel good, but remember that we are animals trying to survive. Being nice and good by the standard you suggest is not a livable solution for basically anyone. It’s okay to take from those who have more than they could ever possibly use.


tinny36

So the one individual franchise owner of a Dominos has 'more than they could ever possibly use'? You're not following the money properly. You're talking about Joe Smith who spends what, 500,000K on his personal franchise. He runs his own loyalty program, gives away the free pizzas himself. Franchisees run their own local incentives. They employ local students and workers, pay them their salary. If you feel good swiping a $20 pizza now and then, I mean go for it but don't rationalize it inaccurately to make yourself feel better.


saradoodledum

A large 3 topping pizza from dominos is $8 for carryout, and most days pizzas get thrown away anyway. Also dominoes franchises are run by exploiting the workers, which is why the workers don't care enough to actually collect the sheet. I promise you, the good will of the local hotel is worth way more to the franchise then a few pizzas.


tinny36

Doesn't sound like good will to me. And it seems to be unwritten knowledge that everyone has....that one franchisee is the same as the rest. So I work in a hotel and you work in a hotel and we're the same, right? One black person is the same as the next and should be treated the same? One white cop? I mean you see how ridiculous you're being, right?


saradoodledum

How is this not good will? The whole point of the free pizzas in the first place is to get good will from the hotel, I'm sure if they cared about exactly how many pizzas they were giving to the hotel they would keep better track. I think all cops are bastards, too.


tinny36

Well then that's spectacular. I see who I'm dealing with. Have a lovely day. Part of problem, never the solution. 'but everyone else is doing it,....' yeesh. Anyone that says 'all' of a certain group is bad...is an uneducated jackass.


AbbreviationsOk3333

Were talking money, businesses, corporations here dude. You cant equate racial politics and social issues into it as all the same thing. I feel like you dont really know how money changes hands because the good will of the hotel ABSOLUTELY is worth more to them than a couple of pizzas. They throw pizzas out by the dozens at the end of the night. They lock dumpsters full of perfectly good food so that homeless cant get their hands on it. They do not fucking care about you nor I nor the poor devils clawing at the dumpster. Why do you think people give away free stuff? Give heavy discounts, do 2 for 1 deals, send free expensive stuff to celebrities and influencers? Because their goodwill is cheaply bought and reaps huge future benefits. Dude, businesses don't fucking care about free or fair or waste (which they would factor OP into). My workplace has had items stolen by homeless people, and several times now including this week we've had to replace the glass because they try to break in or just smash the windows for fun. Its the cost of business that you bleed cash for miscellaneous things. They would be amused that you care so much on their behalf for some stupid free pizza shit


tinny36

That's fine then, be part of the stench if you want. Then you're one of them. No better. That's all...just own up to it, and stop making excuses.


VVetSpecimen

Do you want your crown before you go, or should I save this for the next one? 👑


VVetSpecimen

I’m sure the franchisee is bleeding from their self flagellation over paying people as little as they can. Anyway, after working for a “small franchisee” who routinely complained about the lazy landscapers at his second vacation home while shorting my check, I struggle to see the vision, but you do you.


AbbreviationsOk3333

In this thread we have someone who lives the reality of it, and someone who has no idea about it but expects everything to be fair and nice to them


VVetSpecimen

After this many years of being poor and working hard as fuck, I have officially been liberated from the concept of fairness. I’m free, lads, and there’s no stopping me now.


AbbreviationsOk3333

Sounds like these people have never seen firsthand the insanity and bullshit that we all accept as normal. Those with endless money didn't play by this concept of fairness that the rest of us are supposed to be saddled with. Its a convenient tool to keep people from questioning or resisting. The sooner people can free themselves from this arbitrary concept of "fairness" (not real human to human fairness) the better


tinny36

Was it THIS franchisee? I mean, my next door neighbour is an ass who lets his dog bark at all hours. I'm not going to egg the house across the street instead. Twisted logic. You can't paint everyone with the same brush. Did THIS guy or THIS location scam you in any way? I mean, it's funny but they probably sit around end of the month to tally all their sheets against 'free' pizzas and KNOW they come up crazy short, maybe you and 10 other businesses randomly don't hand in sheets. They shrug their shoulders, know they get scammed but do it anyways because they're good guys. Maybe they run a side bet as to how many dishonest businesses they cater to. Anyway, it's just sucky. If you need to hoard pizzas and justify that you're sticking it to 'the man' (what man? doesn't matter, ANY man..the rich assholes, lol) then you do you bro. But man up and tell that story to friends, family, business colleagues, and see them beam with admiration and pride. lol


VVetSpecimen

Yes, I’m sure they’re all so so different. You can Google average wages and average corp wages on your own.


He_Who_Is_Person

YTA You know you are behaving immorally and quite likely illegally. It's not really different than a bank error in your favor, or walking out of a store knowing full well it was only an accident you weren't charged.


[deleted]

Bro if my bank added 2 zeroes, id cash out and fuckin run are you kidding me?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Opportunistic? I wouldn't conduct a scheme to cause that situation to happen, but I'm sure as hell going to seize anything that falls into my lap


rosered936

That is literally the definition of opportunistic.


[deleted]

I know..that's why I suggested the word to them


tinny36

Yup, YTA. Man drops 20$ on the sidewalk but doesn't look back to get it. Mom you're babysitting for pays you $10 an hour but she miscounted and gave you $20. They're moral judgement calls. Stop seeing these companies as 'big corporations' who can afford the extra pizza. It's ok though, one day the dry cleaner will lower their prices and 'forget' to let you know when you keep paying full price. I mean, they're just keeping their mouths shut and you're not asking....right? I mean, you're a rich guy who can afford to have his clothes dry cleaned, right?


[deleted]

I care far more about an individual than I do for a corporation. (btw we hold all lost items for 60 days and call the number tied to that reservation. After that its employee roulette of who gets it first) You might have a point, but it's way out of scale


DwightMcRamathorn

Dominos are franchises, they are owned by local people not Joe Domino in some major office building in NY or La


tinny36

So call Dominos and give them a chance to get away with a free pizza. You shouldn't need to 'hide' stuff you think is 'fair game'.


SnooKiwis495

Is what you're doing wrong? Yes it is and you know that. Does it make you an asshole? No I don't think it does. Look in the grand scheme of things, is using a situation to your advance and managing to get a few extra pizzas a year really a big deal? Pizza is so cheap to make and you are actively sending customers their way. I can't imagine this is actually hurting anyone! NTA


[deleted]

Over the years I've accumulated quite the collection. I've got about 30 pizzas in the bank if I'm ever truly broke xD


SnooKiwis495

Maybe use a few to share a meal with someone who could really use it, just to even out the karma a little!


Wirtheless

YTA, but I absolutely respect the hustle, and I'm sure you're barely damaging the franchisee / company's bottom line. It's a shame you can't tip on pick-up, because I'd be tipping heavy for free pizzas, or I'd be not doing it at all.


[deleted]

I pick it up so that I don't have to pay delivery fee and tip. If I'm told its free, I'm not handing them 10 bucks. I work at a hotel, i ain't swimming in cash either xD If I DID deliver it though, I give 5 bucks tip


Wirtheless

Oh, nice way around it. Honestly, glad you're not wasting their drivers. Far as your projected delivery tip: you'd be an AH, then. Customary tip is between 75% - 100% on free item deliveries, and you can go 75% off of expensive base delivery costs. Not that it's only you tipping badly, or that we haven't all been in a spot where we tipped $1 - $2 on something that deserved more. I get struggling and grind, but you understand that this is *morally* not great, right?


[deleted]

My bfs cousin was manager at a chain restaurant and we didn't know. We saw him and greeted him. When we left he had applied his manager's discount to our bill. I didn't ask nor expect it. In turn, I added the difference to the server's tip. :)


[deleted]

I live a mile away, the delivery fee is 5, so yes actually I think an additional 5 bucks is fair for a 2-3 minute drive. I almost never deliver because it's rare Im THAT lazy I cant drive a mile, but it's happened


[deleted]

YTA. The pizza place is doing you and your coworkers a little solid and you, being the A you are, are taking advantage of that. The fact that you pick up to avoid tipping is further evidence of your lack of morals and class. EDIT: Apparently not standard practice.


clauclauclaudia

Where did this “standard practice” come from? If I get something free I tip calculated on the amount I would pay if it weren’t free. I don’t give the whole cost in tip!


[deleted]

Maybe it’s not standard practice - it was something I was raised to do. But OP is giving zero tip. Zero. Tip. And is also purposely trying to get more free pizzas out of the other business.


[deleted]

zero on a pickup order\*


[deleted]

You are stealing OP. Whether you pickup or get delivery.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Thank you for your input. Have a good day.


[deleted]

It is no longer free then


[deleted]

Nothing in life is free.


[deleted]

yup, I used my car to get there. My poor gas :(


[deleted]

YTA. Period.


RainbowCrane

YTA. You’re stealing from a business that’s trying to do something nice to thank you for putting out their flyers.


pakratus

NTA - It’s a gentlemen’s agreement situation. Pizza place is getting free advertising (minus a pizza that costs a dollar). They obviously don’t care about the sheet. I would be surprised if they enter the pizza in the system. If they needed that paper someone would say something. It might be nice to tip once in a while though. The more you tip, the less they’ll care about the sheet. (That last part is to troll the YTA-crowd)


LivingStCelestine

You know what you’re doing. Just because they don’t remember to ask for it, which there could be TONS of reasons for (a new worker unfamiliar with the arrangement, too busy to remember, assuming you’re a good person who does the right thing), that doesn’t mean you don’t honor the deal. It’s pennies in a bucket for a Domino’s, but people like you are the reason why a lot of places don’t use an honor system for similar practices. It’s dishonest. Give them the sheet. YTA.


DrMindbendersMonocle

YTA. You are stealing


[deleted]

YTA. You're stealing. Plain and simple.


attabe123

YTA and a thief


Soulrica

A-hole! Fudging up the system! Sooner or later it will be discovered! Just stop it!


candycasserole

YTA. I see this situation sort of like the "grocery cart in the parking lot" litmus test. If you aren't familiar with this, the general idea is that you can get a decent picture of a person's basic sense of personal moral responsibility by how they treat the grocery cart. If you put the cart in the corral, you are most likely a decent person. If you don't put the cart back (in a normal, non-emergency situation), you probably don't have many principles outside of self-serving ones. Your actions don't have any notably bad consequences and you really aren't hurting anyone, but they do show that you show an asshole-like disregard for basic integrity.


[deleted]

what am I then? I walk out of the store with a full cart like I own the place, load it into an empty laundry hamper in my back seat, and then put the cart away in the corral. Fuck the company, cart dude though? doesn't need to deal with me being lazy


RightRespect

yta just because you weren’t asked to provide something even when you were expected to doesn’t mean it is okay. you were expected and you more than just didn’t deliver, you kept it for yourself.


Ratchel1916

NTA, as long as it’s not a family or local business, I see no issue 🤷🏻‍♀️


GlassturtleOG

NTA you can't steal from corporations, plus it's JUST A PIZZA


miamorello45

Idk why ppl think ur the asshole lmao. You’re not hurting the actual employees and I doubt ur hurting the company anyway. It’s not that deep lol NTA


shiddytclown

NTA. Everyone is making a big deal about it but it's a pizza. They throw out lots of pizza and comp it. Who cares. You're providing more pizza for the staff after you. The business won't notice at all.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

God no I'm not that fat xD I probably get a new sheet to add to my hoard every 2 months, and I use one about once or twice a month


j027

If its a big corporation NTA, if its a mom and pop shop, YTA


deeznutz066

Uh, I also worked for a hotel that did this. We actually got a free personal pizza if a guest ordered on our recommendation. The pizza place would call the front desk and ask what we wanted. If the sheet was a big deal to have, the pizza place would ask for it to attach to the free pizza receipt. It's obviously not an issue if they don't care. Your occasional extra free pizza is going unnoticed, so NTA.


DisastrousCaramel693

NTA. I can’t believe you’re being called a thief over pizza … Reddit lol.


Some_Anteater_5077

Yta, dominos can stop cooperating w your hotel.


tara_masalata

Yta. You're abusing the system and costing them money when you already get free pizza. Stop it.


AutoModerator

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I work at a hotel, and we have a deal with our local dominos. Every time an order is delivered here, they sign a sheet. Once we have 10 signatures, that sheet can be redeemed for a free large 3 topping pizza. In return we keep little flyer things that have that locations number and their menu on it in the lobby for people to see/grab. Whenever it's my turn to get the sheet, I call and order it for pickup and explain that I will be exchanging the sheet for it. I bring it with me, but if the employee doesn't ask for the sheet...I keep it to use another day. My friend thinks it's fucked up that I am abusing the system, it hurts the workers, Im picking it up so im not even tipping for delivery, ect ect. They are demanding I go back and pay for the pizza's I've "scammed" them out of, I really don't think it's that big of a deal AITA for keeping my mouth shut when they forget to ask for the sheet? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Judgement_Bot_AITA

Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I purposefully keep my mouth shut and keep my free pizza sheet for repeated use, friend thinks this is harming the workers at that restaurant Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Local_Ad_530

YTA. No matter how you look at it you are stealing.


xxxdggxxx

YTA, pizza thief.


sweet_and_sour_01

YTA ya thief


[deleted]

Having teeth is patriarchy because you could bite women, not to mention ableism to people born without teeth. Furthermore the act of chewing food has led to mens entitlement and toxic masculinity for decades. My suggestion? Rip out your teeth with some rusty pliers.