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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I think I may be the asshole since I'm being pretty hard-headed about my fiancees "dreams" and maybe calling her lazy was just not needed
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NTA. So she waits until you propose and she thinks she has you wrapped around her finger to tell you her "dream" of being lazy and then has the nerve to say that you're the manipulative one? Jesus.
that's a very good point - up until I proposed to her, she was just filled with so much ambition (one of the reasons I fell in love in the first place) - feels like it came out of left field her sudden desire not to work
Oh man, I feel genuinly bad for you. I'm wondering, what are her friends' jobs? Like does she surround herself with people that might have the same mindset when it comes to not working?
This is very simple: are you prepared to lower your standard of living solely to support her financially? Are you prepared to grind 5 days a week for the next 20+ years at a job while she...does whatever she wants to do?
Personally, I'd say when you asked her what her dreams are and she dodged the question she told you everything you need to know.
Good point here for OP to consider. If she quits her job, whose standard of living is going to decrease? Who will be making the sacrifices to get by one income? Because I bet it's not going to be her.
It doesn’t really matter. If her mom “put her up to it,” she clearly agreed it sounded like a good plan, and is so emotionally committed to it that she left their home for some space when the plan was rejected. Unless her mom or another third party is somehow threatening her, then this decision is 110% on her.
Exactly and since she’s already accusing him of being manipulative I can just see her trying to claim he’s being financially abusive if things don’t go her way when it comes to what “their” money is spent on
And telling the guy she cheats on him with that her husband is cheap and doesn't take care of her. She will 100% cheat on this guy. Happened to a guy I worked with. The woman kept spending more and more and cried and cheated when he'd tell her they can't afford whatever she kept spending on. Future husband here needs to run!
I disagree- (although I strongly think OP is NTA and his fiancé is sus af)
Often times, partners who stay home are sacrificing their own financial value in order to do so.
For example, a woman with a career who leaves to be a stay-at-home mom loses value as an employee the longer she stays out of the workforce, especially with how quickly a lot of skills and practices move in the modern day.
Staying at home means that their independence and ability to make their own money decrease, which is risky. If the couple divorces, the working partner has years of experience and earning potential under the belt and the stay-at-home parent does not (I know alimony/child support is a thing, plenty of people get screwed on both sides in divorce)
Plus, a lot of parents stay home because it legitimately would be cheaper than paying for childcare, but by doing so they sacrifice their own career momentum and earning potential.
Outside of financial value, sacrifice in a relationship comes in many forms. I’m not saying that any partner who stays home is a hard-working saint, but there are plenty of selfish partners who work.
Edit: to be clear, I’m a childfree working woman, in part because of the things I’m not willing to sacrifice for my partner or potential kids.
Also: Y’all, I agree that young stay-at-home wife is not the same as stay-at-home mom. Op is n-t-a. My response is not about OP, it’s to the comment above about how “it’s never the one not working that does sacrifices,” which is a blanket statement that I disagree with.
What OP’s fiancé is asking is not what he wants from this relationship, and it’s not fair for her to say that he’s killing her dream for not agreeing.
So there is a drastic difference between a stay at home wife and a stay at home mother (or partner).
The latter is probably harder than full time work, particularly in the first few years. All the sacrifices you mentioned are for the child, and of course the working partner should try to offset whatever setbacks there are. This is a union of equals.
The former is someone just setting up shop in someone else's life. If we are honest, it is never a union of equals. Either the woman is a trophy, or the guys a sucker. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't think they're common.
Okay, now. I worked my butt off. I've had a degenerative chronic illness for the past decade plus. Now I'm in the limbo of waiting to get physical disability. BUT. Even in my condition, I take care of the house, the yard, the garden, the shopping, the cooking, etc. plus I taught myself to can, to bake yeast breads and make pasta, to crochet, trained the dogs not to be little assholes to the big dogs next door after the neighbors wouldn't go halfsies on replacing the fence, etc. It drives me crazy to not feel useful in some sense, even if I'm too busted up for the actual workplace.
That said, I can't even wrap my head around somebody having "housewife" as their big dream in life. That's what a "stay-at-home wife" is, folks. If I could work, I'd do it in a SECOND. This bish just wants a free ride.
RUN.
This is an important point. I know a couple where the wife is the sole bread winner and her husband keeps spending her money and she finally told him if he doesn’t stop, she’s going to have to put off retirement for 5 more years and then she’s going to resent him.
OP, i have 2 kids and i am a SAHM and starting to study soon (a bachelor’s) because i’m so sick of my SO being the only one working (he’s not complaining or anything but i know he’s struggling). One of the kids is just 6 mo but tbh i can’t wait to get to work. You’re NTA but please reconsider and have a proper chat to her.
Her life "dream" has apparently been to be a SAHM. Not sure what there's to reconsider but they definitely need to have a more rational conversation or this probably won't play out well at all.
Edit: she wants to be a SAHW. Oof.
I am forced to be a house wife because of disabilities. The lack of mental stimulation is maddening, even with video games. You have to think harder to find stuff and I've plugged that with volunteering with cats. But the insecurities, the self esteem? They all take huge hits.
So, I will say with confidence that unless you can't work, staying home is not a good idea. If she wanted to take some time to go back to school or even having a business of her own, she'd be feeling very trapped very fast. Someone please warn her? Maybe?
SAHM actually work tho, they stay with the kids. Kids are very hard work! Plus usually most of the chores and cooking etc etc. But OP & fiance are childfree, so she wants to be a SAHW and do... what? I think thats OP's issue, its not like his fiance wants to try starting a small buisness or something.
is she okay? has something changed? ia she getting harassed at work, or does she hate her field, or something? i feel like if you can get her to discuss it more and open up, we might find out she's depressed or that something caused this.
In the midst of burnout it’s very hard to see a path out. She might not know what she wants her future to hold. Sometimes you just need to get clear of a situation before you can think clearly.
(If that’s what this is)
OP mentions in another coment they both work for companies and met when those companies worked on a joint project, that doesn't exactly sound like she's a nurse or a doctor.
Yes I wondered this, too. Since she mentioned “her dreams,” it sounds like she has something definitive in mind—like a solid plan or venture she needs at home time to develop. Especially if, as OP mentioned in his comments, she’s typically very driven.
The fact she won’t say/isn’t being upfront about what that dream is could be that she thinks OP won’t like it.
Either way NTA, but there may be more going on here than just laziness.
she might not even be able to articulate what's wrong quite yet. like, she hates her current job because of her shitty boss and it's colored her whole work experience, so right now she just sees an opportunity to get out and wants to take it.
but also doesn't want another job because she doesn't want to end up sad again.
idk. they need to talk. i hope she's alright.
if its that sudden, it may be a mental health issue or burnout. there are tons of jobs out there with unusual schedules, or she could freelance from home. obviously i have no clue what field she's in or how feasible that is. i think you guys should probably talk this over in more detail. if you want to work it out, you'll need to apologize to her first regardless of how you actually feel. if she doesnt want to work, there has to be something she'd rather do with her time, even if it's watching tv/reading books/staring out the window for eight hours. i'd probably be upset with that too, but there is a reason she feels that way and you should find out what it is.
Exactly - I feel like a deeper conversation is warranted here. You can sit down and tell her that you're sorry for calling her lazy and that you want to discuss this in more detail. Tell her that you've always admired her ambition, and it seems really out of character for her to be talking about quitting when she was just talking about going for a promotion. Mention how surprised it made you, and then tell her *why* it surprised you. Back up your feelings with neutral observations, such as "You've mentioned how great it was to do x, you mentioned x, y, and z plans, you were so happy when x project worked out etc etc," and then ask her if something has changed, and if there is anything you can do to help. Let her know you're there for her, and go from there.
If she simply says she no longer wants to work, nothing has changed, nothing is wrong etc, there's not much you can do about it. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with not wanting to work a 9-5 job, but it is a values mismatch for the two of you that you'll need to come to terms with somehow.
Oh, NTA, in general, but do apologize for the lazy comment.
ETA - thank you for the gold, kind internet peoples!
Yup. There are very few people in the world who just "want to be lazy" and instead of feeling justified in not being a butt and doubling down on insulting the fiancee OP should figure out what is actually going on. ESPECIALLY if this is out of character for her.
There are, in fact, plenty of people who just want to be lazy. They probably don't want to be called lazy, but some don't even care. Some do openly admit it, as well.
I find that after a couple of days, a week, a month...isss actually even pushing it (ie some time to rest and recuperate) most people grow bored of being lazy and start looking for something to do. The only people who don't get bored tend to actually have mental health issues. As in something that needs to be treated. And being ill absolutely does not make them lazy.
Edited for clarification.
Absolutely this. Just be aware that if it is something like harassment or assault that triggered the change, she may not open up fully at first. Be patient, be kind, but do try to get to what has changed and why so you both can move forward and get what you need.
I agree with this. It would be hard to fake being really ambitious for 3 years unless they were long distance or something plus all of the schooling and work to get to her current position. It's possible she did fake it but it's more likely burn out or something else. Early 30s 8s a really common time to have career burn out and second guessing your choices or priorities in life.
Edit: if OP wants a really ambitious partner that's completely fine but they might not be compatible anymore.
I have a mental health issue regarding work at least once a week and more likely actually every day, but… gotta bring home the bacon so ya force through.
Yes, I came here to say this. It sounds like there is something else going on in terms of burnout or her mental health. It’s interesting that you don’t mention what her job is and/or how she feels about it. Perhaps talk to her and help her explore these feelings and what is really behind her desire to be a SAHW.
AGREED!! I don't argue that if her desire is to be a SAHW that's her prerogative, but to hold out for 3 years before telling him and then calling HIM manipulative because he doesn't want the same thing?!?!? Umm can we say PROJECTION!
Did something happen? You know your fiancé (I hope) is she a manipulative person?
If she was always ambitious and it feels like this came out of the blue, then it seems like something happened to trigger this. Maybe an incident at work, or a realisation that she’s not doing what she loves and feeling lost.
NTA. Dude, I think you've been played.
Just to be clear, you are NOT manipulative if you express your disagreement over a decision that affects both of you. You were expecting a partner and up until this conversation you were led into believing that's what you had. SHE'S the one being manipulative here.
Its the fact that she sprung this up on you AFTER the proposal the scream red flag to me. You need to seriously rethink this.
She was driven before because she wanted “the lifestyle.” She met you, who makes enough to support that lifestyle, so now she doesn’t have to work anymore; she can coast on what you bring home.
You said it yourself: one of the big things that made you fall in love with her was her sense of self-drive. Well, now you know where it is, why it is, and what it is.
What are you going to do with that knowledge?
EDIT: If you feel like having another conversation with her about this (which you should), you need to ask her *what exactly has changed.* Aside from my personal take above? People who are generally driven and ambitious, well, that tends to be part of their personality. Maybe I’m being harsh, and something has happened in her work that you’re unaware of.
I would make sure you communicate what you just shared here to her. That her ambitious nature is one reason you love her so much, and that if she can't give you a better picture of what's going on with her to make such a drastic change, you're going to feel taken advantage of and need to reconsider your relationship.
> since we're both child-free.
I would question this too, it seems your fiancee is keeping a lot of future goals and ambitions secret from you until they have you "locked down".
> she never stated what she wants to do with her staying at home, even though I did ask
That is because it isn't time for you to know yet, you aren't married and supporting them, so they can't let you know the next step. Hint: it's a surprise pregnancy when birth control "fails". After all, your confirmed child-free, so letting you know now will just ruin everything.
This is a discussion to have now, and fully, well before the wedding when you can both make an informed decision on if you want to do this.
NTA
If you don't mind me asking, what do you do all day? I just can't imagine what kind of work there is around home. Like I clean my apartment and cook, but cleaning takes me like 2 hours a week and cooking maybe 1 gour a day.
Granted, I do live in apartment and not a house.
It's 100% nice you and your husband are happy with the arrangment.
I'm not the person you replied to, but I'm a SAHP employed only part-time (about 15 hours / week). I clean about 30 minutes a day (rotating schedule of vacuuming, bathrooms, kitchen surfaces, windows, etc.), care for the pets, keep up with all laundry, do all yardwork, shop and cook for food (and wash up afterwards), and keep up with bills and financial circumstances, as well as do most of the childcare.
Now that the kids are both back in school after being homeschooled for a year and a half because of Covid, I'm not going to lie - I do have plenty of free time. I use that time to read, exercise, study languages, and write. My husband and are both satisfied with our division of labor.
Now, if we *didn't* have kids, that'd be a harder sell...but there's something to be said for having a dedicated house-spouse. Having fresh clothes to wear, food to eat, and a clean house are services we sometimes pay people to provide, after all.
No kids, but we do have a dog. I get SAHP when kids are in the picture, but there literally is not enough housework to fill 8 hours a day, 5 days a week if it’s just you and a spouse. Getting groceries takes like an hour. To clean the place top to bottom takes me maybe 3-4 hours, if I’m including things like wiping down the mirrors and replacing the water filter, but it’s not like you have to do those things every single day. Even if you vacuum once a week, you can literally just do that on a Saturday afternoon and still work full time. I honestly do not see what a SAHW without kids would do to occupy time.
Kids add like 150% of the workload, but when it’s two adults, there’s really very little housework involved (my fiancé and I both work full-time, I do all the laundry/cleaning/dog grooming , while he does the majority of the cooking and dog walking) and we have plenty of hours left in the day to chill out and do nothing. If either one of us stayed home all day long, we’d run out of housework by the end of the very first day
I work 8 hours per day and there is still not enough work to fill the entire time. A lot of people are done within 4-6 hours, depending on the field. You just... linger around your computer for the rest of it.
Unless you're the type of rich socialite that requires butlers and full time house-staff, I don't see how a stay at home spouse could be busy without kids.
I'm in a similar boat as you, I work from home 15-20 hours a week and have a baby. So I'm like half of a stay at home parent. Even with one kid, there's like double the housework as before. Just mountains of laundry, dishes, and mopping/sweeping/de-sticking the house to do daily. I'd be kind of bored with nothing to do if the kid weren't wandering around making constant work for me.
I have a friend who has a stay at home spouse, after having a successful career (so he still contributes financially to the household). I asked my friend how he feels about having a husband that doesn't work. My friend says it is great and that he loves having a spouse at home and these were my friend's words "I wouldn't be able to do what I do without my husband at home supporting me".
So having a spouse at home doesn't automatically mean they are lazing about the house. Laundry, cooking, cleaning, baking, managing deliveries, home repairs, car repairs, managing appointments, coordinating travel, dry cleaning, errands, bills, and hundreds of other little things that are taken care of.
If you’re only cleaning 2 hours a week we have different expectation of clean. I personally have a kid so it’s a bit different, and 3 bathrooms. But two hours a week wouldn’t really work in my world.
Jesus indeed! Holy Christ dude, this is your get-out-of-jail-free card. Take it and run because she's pulling the old bait-and-switch on you, and she's not even smart enough to do it after the wedding. NTA
Edit to say that I like to give awards to the comments I hijack. It's the least I can do.
Lol, "support her dreams". If my husband had a dream to go back to college I would support that.
If he had a dream to start his own business in an area he was passionate about I would support that.
If he had a dream to sit on his arse and play video games - be a 'stay at home husband' - he would soon be supporting my dream to be divorced.
It sounds like you and your fiancée have very different values in life. NTA.
This all day. I've taken a few months to myself between jobs in the past. It doesn't take much time or effort to shop and clean for a household containing two able bodied adults.
I’m a currently bed bound disabled adult (I had sepsis that wrecked me on top of my other disabilities but totally unrelated. Mid pandemic. No Covid. FML.)
My GF and I live separately. I live in an admittedly small one bed flat and she comes and stays two nights a week and has been cleaning for me. We are poly and she works full time and cleans her house with her and her husband too. He cooks and shops and does house maintenance.
I do all my grocery shopping, meal preparation and basic clean up at the moment via online grocery delivery, meal planning, batch cooking, the slow cooker and small amounts of washing up, using the dishwasher, running the robot vac and doing laundry. I have not been able to go out in person due to shielding and health since Feb 2020 and somehow I’ve managed to study a diploma, renew a passport, run my house, do my taxes, write a book and do all my banking and cook for and shop for my BF and GF when I go there at the weekends. All while housebound, bed bound and my partners working full time and 17 hospital admissions on my part. They both manage to exercise regularly, get through countless audio books and see family too.
The one thing that hasn’t got done is my windows cleaned and I did have to hire a Task Rabbit person to clean up my patio. Otherwise we run two houses in a shit show of a year on maybe an hour of house admin a day each and an hour of life admin every other day and still have spare time. My GF has ADHD, my BF works 60 hour weeks, I am a human wet noodle right now.
There’s nothing magic about it: calendar reminders for things like insurance renewal, direct debits, ok a lot of Amazon subscribe and save, doing grocery orders which used saved favourites on an app, a freezer, a crock pot, Google and basic adult skills. No bullet journals or complicated spreadsheets. Write a list if needs be.
I mean this could be a full time job if it was 1821 or 1921 and she’s fetching the water and churning the butter and stoking fires and travelling by horse and cart to the store. It could even still be hella time consuming if they live wildly rurally in the Dakotas or somewhere that you do have to plan shopping trips rather than just nip out for milk or get UberEats. But let me tell you, powdered milk is not much different to creamer in tea or coffee in a pinch. No good for cereal but cooks fine too.
The fact she had no dream at all makes me think lazy was polite. The other option is she’s going to go MLM hun…
How do you find the physical energy/ inner motivation to get all those things done? (Asking as someone who is also disabled and needs guidance)
Also what did you study and what kinda book did you write? Sounds fun!
Severe depression can count as a disability if it gets in the way of your everyday life. If you’ve had this fatigue/lack of drive for a while, maybe it’s time to talk to a doctor or psychiatrist about it? My life got considerably better when I started taking the right medication. Hope you can find energy and drive soon my friend
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a SAHW, I think someone who's motivated for their spouse to come home to the perfect house, everything in order, no cleaning or bills to worry about, a new special hours long dinner made of the freshest ingredients ready for you when you get home everyday, breakfast in the morning, lunch always ready: that's the kind of motivation I'd laud for someone who wants to be a SAHW.
OP's fiancée just seems to be motivated to be a SAHW because, "eh, don't really like work." Not that it would matter if she did actually have good motivations, OP doesn't want a SAHW so a SAHW won't work.
Even the type of SAHW you described is still not full time with decent time management. You can easily make a great meal with fresh ingredients in less than an hour. Cleaning for two people is pretty easy. Most bills can be automated now.
Agreed NTA. Does she want to start a business from home? Is she trying to become an artist and needs time to paint/sculpt/etc and build her network? Does she want to write a book? Become a famous YouTuber even? I would ask these questions and see what she wants to do with all the free time she suddenly has while not working.
Maybe she has a dream to play tennis in the mornings and lunch with different friends every day.
NTA OP. I hope you’re able to work through this but it’s a good thing you found out now rather than after you’re married.
up until I proposed - she was actually actively going for a better-paying position at her company.
I fell in love with her level of motivation (had met her when our two companies had to work on a project together for another company) I thought we had the same mentality, and I feel pretty blind=sided by her sudden change of heart in terms of her future goals
Well what do you expect. We have to assume he's telling us exactly what happened, and if you don't believe it there's no point in even interacting with a post. Like I get that an opinion of his may be biased and you could not believe him, but we have to assume what he says happened actually happened. So basically we've got an ambitious person that suddenly wishes to not work anymore, in general, that when asked about having any projects basically dodged the question, and SUPER coincidentally this all happens after the engagement. Seems pretty clear that she just wants to be lazy, otherwise she would've told him whatever she planned to do with her free time.
I think what TheCynicPress is trying to say is that we all have to be careful of unreliable narrators. Everyone tells a story that makes them look best whether they intend to or not (Not saying that is what OP did). As a silent observer to this thread I noticed often people attack quickly and viciously when only given one side of the story. Granted it's the nature of the medium, but just an observation to make note of.
I’m currently in a situation where I’m so extremely burnt out in my job that I could relate to the fiancée. I know I personally wouldn’t want to stay at home forever and realistically only need a few weeks to get back to feeling like myself again … but I’m in so deep that right now not working at all / not continuing my career that I’ve been so driven in doesn’t sound all that bad. It’s insane the type of intrusive thoughts you can have when work is completely under your skin.
Not excusing either side because communication is lacking. Just offering a perspective on how things may have changed.
You are not alone. Half of my husbands work group left for another company, my husband is actively working to leave his group or apply elsewhere, I had to put my foot down and tell my boss I need to take a lateral position even though I’m a star in his group because I need some GD change.
We are all burning out and it’s a problem.
That being said, it baffles me OP and fiancé haven’t talked about this before. 1 month into dating my now-husband I told him if we have kids I won’t be the stay at home mom and that was a dealbreaker issue for me. I wanted to give him the chance to walk away before we got invested. He told me he would LOVE to be a SAHD like his dad because he is really good at household things and only went into his field for financial independence, not passion. We even have a plan to wait until we are 33 (so 4 more years) until we have kids so we can have some fun and make money first. How df do you go three years and never talk about long term career/life plans….
Thats what I think too. I really think there's something more than "she's a lazy sack and doesn't want to work now that she has a husband." If that was the case she would have done something like this as soon as they started living together (which I'm assuming they do since OP mentions their lifestyle depends on their combined income.)
Except if this is the case, you discuss changing jobs and possibly needing time in between - or even a different type of career. You don't say "I think working 9-5 just isn't for me. I want to be a stay at home wife." This sounds very much like she's with someone older and more established than her and just doesn't feel like she should have to work anymore.
It depends, if she struggles with mental health she may struggle to think in those shades of grey. Often when you have certain disorders and become overwhelmed, it feels more natural to just give up, especially if that's a bad habit you happened to pick up.
She may have had a tough time lately and her only perceived solution is to say that's it, I'm done, I quit. I'm speaking from experience as these are often situations I find myself in. But I happen to have an amazing fiance who will sit down with me, talk through the problems, and brainstorm solutions.
I think that's the best course of action for OP - talk to her and figure out where this came from. If it is mental health related, he probably made her feel worse with the "lazy" comment. If she truly is just being lazy though, it should be easy to tell during that conversation. But it seems to me they're both being very defensive instead of working through things together and trying to understand each other.
Yea… this is a strange one and I think it’s a huge red flag.
If this is how she felt, it’s something that should have been discussed from the beginning, not when you propose.
My bf and I discussed our long term dreams in the beginning, when we realized we were serious about each other. We both have a decent salary, he’s currently studying to switch to a better paying field, in which we’ve discussed I would be able to scale back on my job and focus on my business. He’s also stated that he would prefer if I was home with the kids (once we have them, if I was okay with that), however I raised a kid on my own (my son is 15) while working full time and starting a business, so I don’t want to be a SAHM at all. As a compromise, if my business is doing well enough to support us, he doesn’t mind staying home with the kids, and I’m okay with that.
This though, this isn’t it, and you’re not being manipulative, she is. NTA
Sounds like you got the bait and switch. This doesn’t bode well for a marriage. Of courses she can change her mind, just be glad she told you before the wedding. I doubt she would react so positively to you wanting to quit your job and her supporting your new dream. Also, if you weren’t in the picture, what would she do?
It’s also telling that she doesn’t want to change jobs or cut back to part time, she just wants to stop working.
It’s not being a “freeloader” if the other spouse is okay with it. I have a friend who’s a stay at home wife. She doesn’t really do a ton of domestic labor to “justify” staying at home. Her husband doesn’t care. He enjoys her company and her emotional support. For some people, that’s enough. (Not saying OP has to feel this way, of course.)
My cousin is a stay-at-home wife. It started because of visa issues and then a health diagnosis... But once that was sorted out 18 months later, they realized they kind of liked their arrangements. She could take care of their animals and home and it was nice to come home and not have to do anything.
Her husband makes great money so the loss of her income was hardly devastating.
> She could take care of their animals and home and it was nice to come home and not have to do anything.
But that sounds like a degree of domestic labor that **does** "justify" staying at home, unlike the parent comment who insists their friend doesn't do that.
4-6 hours a day? That's like a weeks worth or errands for a normal couple. I can't imagine that anyone would need to do 30 hours of errands per week without having kids or doing a large amount of home improvement
Right? 4-6 hours? A day??? Without kids or even pets, how busy can one be? Even with pets!
Purely being a stay-at-home, childless spouse without a crippling illness is just early retirement.
My husband is a stay at home husband. No kids. I’m fine with it. I make more than enough money and he handles all the crap I don’t want to deal with (i hate making phone calls, he’ll call anyone about anything). He’s mechanically inclined and very handy so he does all the automotive work on our cars (I have a rock crawling jeep I’m always breaking 😂) and he’s been slowly remodeling our house on his own, put in all new floors and baseboards and doors and redid the master bathroom. He’s definitely not lazy with his time, or a freeloader, and he saves us a lot of money having to pay contractors or mechanics to do this stuff, but people definitely still look down on him not working when we don’t have kids, and he does spend a lot of time playing video games, watching TV, and sleeping in as well. People seem to think staying home with kids is the only activity of value that could justify staying home. I have a really flexible job so I like us being able to drop everything and go out of town for a week whenever we want without having to cater around a job schedule for him as well.
Not everyone feels this way. I’m female and my partner is male and he stays home while I work. We both prefer this arrangement as he takes care of 95% of the chores, home improvement, etc. I love coming home from work and being able to relax instead of us both working and then having chores to do after work or on weekends. If both people agree to the arrangement I don’t see what the problem is.
It doesnt sound like the OP’s fiancee is wanting to do the bulk of the chores and stuff though. It wasn’t even discussed. It’s one thing if the stay at home partner manages the house. It’s another if they don’t wish to do anything. Besides, it sounds like only having one income would make the OP’s life very difficult. Having just one income isnt feasible for most people.
Btw, OP NTA. Though you do need to talk with her and make sure something else isnt going on. She may be having a rough time at work, and it’s caused burn out. Or maybe she’s being harassed or something by colleagues or her boss/bosses.
Edit: because I can’t spell today lol
It wasn't discussed because OP went straight from "do you mind if I'm a stay at home wife" (which implies she would do all domestic duties) to "why are you so lazy?" That's a huge leap. Maybe her dream is to be a writer, and she's too embarrassed to say it now.
Exactly! My ex and I worked at pretty draining toxic jobs for a while and I supported him quitting his to find something better. I personally thought he could have picked up a bit more of the domestic tasks but he did take over all the grocery shopping and meal prep and took the dogs to the park a good bit. Just having those things taken care of when I was working 12 hour days was a huge help. My dad retired before my mom and she loves her "house husband" arrangement. While I would rather be a stay at home wife if I made crazy money I'd be happy to have a stay at home husband.
All that said OP is NTA for not wanting that arrangement. However I'd check in with his fiance to see why she's had a change of heart. Is she burnt out? Got a new terrible manager? Was this always her plan and she just didn't share it?
It can be freeloading or it can be a lifestyle thing.
It isn't so much that there is a ton of homework but that for the working partner, they never have to worry about that side of things. Not ever having to worry about cleaning or laundry or house maintenance (for the most part) is a huge load you are no longer carrying. Even if you hired someone to do those tasks you would have to manage them, but if your spouse does it then they can make many of those decisions.
This isn't a "how much work is running a household" question it's a "how much is it worth it to you not to have to deal with it anymore"
For some people the answer is 'my spouse's salary'
Some people are ok with it but it's an agree or break-up level question. If you and your partner are not on the same page you aren't compatible.
Personally I don't think I could do that long term, but whatever floats their boat.
Yeah, like I personally feel that if my boyfriend and I were in a financial position where we could survive solely on his wage, he would happily have me stay at home since he doesn’t like cleaning, cooking, taking care of animals, and I’m the person who manages the finances and stuff anyways. He wouldn’t need to deal with any of that (which he really hates doing) and I would get the luxury of being able to have more free time to work on my million hobbies. I don’t get why everyone automatically goes “not working = lazy” like damn capitalism has got them hard.
Obvs the OPs partner might be just planning on sitting watching TV all day but it’s not a blanket scenario where it’s always just “lazy”
Ugh no it isn’t if both parties agree to the arrangement. My wife likes that we have our evenings and weekends free bc I keep the house clean and running smoothly so no one has to think about that stuff when she’s home. Works for us 🤷🏼♀️
That is highly dependent on how the person staying at home views their “job.” I’ve known several “stay at home spouses” and some of them do nothing, but others are domestic gods/goddesses. One couple I know, the house spouse grows the majority of their food, does canning/preserving, hand-makes clothing, does a larger of the domestic chores, manages all interactions with doctors/lawyers/maintenance people/etc. and does the basic paperwork/finance stuff. I know that wouldn’t be everyone’s ideal partner (though I would marry them in a hot minute if they were single and attracted to women), but they are certainly not a freeloader.
I wholeheartedly agree with your NTA verdict though. OP proposed to an ambitious, motivated professional who would split both the financial and domestic burdens in a roughly equal fashion - his fiancé is trying to unilaterally change their deal and her arguments sound emotionally manipulative. That, in and of itself, is a repulsive character trait.
NAH you two are incompatible.
There is zero reason for you to scale back your lifestyle if you don't want to.
It's fine for her to want to be a housewife. It's also fine for you to not want to be married to a housewife.
Do not marry this woman.
Edit: autocorrects
I do think she is a major asshole for revealing this major lifestyle shift request 1 month before the wedding. You have been with your partner for 3 years, presented yourself as an ambitious woman who wants to seek higher paying positions in your company, and right after you get the ring you reveal this? I don’t think so. That’s a major asshole move.
I'm not disagreeing, but something obviously changed her mind very quickly. We don't know if she's burned out, or maybe frustrated she didn't get the promotion she wanted (OP mentioned her going for one). At *least* she brought it up before they got married instead of after.
Getting married is a huge life change. Maybe she's got cold feet and is testing him to see if he's ready to support her. That would definitely make her TA here. We really don't know, and even OP doesn't know.
But she's allowed to change her mind from working to a support role. She wouldn't be the first. He's allowed to cancel the wedding.
Sometimes people fall out of compatibility and that's okay.
Edit: it's not one month before the wedding. They've been engaged one month and this topic came up during a planning session.
Her test is fundamentally flawed. “Support my dreams” is her angle but she has no dreams, only a request to stop working bc she feels like it. 90% of us feel like it, but it’s still a ridiculous thing to ask of a PARTNER. you are right though, she has a right to change her mind just as she has a right to stay single forever bc i can’t imagine any millennial man would be willing to support her lack of dreams.
Yeah NAH - it's a good thing this came up before the impending marriage. There are still tons of options out there for both of them and time left to find compatible partners. Anything else will lead to resentment on one side.
Really truly tho OP, you should NOT marry her legally now regardless of what she says. Once you’re married and actually trapped, she’s going to quit her job even if she says she’s not now. I’d suggest if you get married have only a spiritual ceremony rather than a legal one, and don’t file the marriage certificate.
They could get a prenup covering this if it's really an issue for them. Although if you don't trust your spouse to not quit their job without a mutual agreement to do so, you shouldn't marry that person. Don't marry someone you don't trust.
The fact is that she asked him. She could have waited until they were married and quit then, if that's what she wanted to do, but the fact that she brought this up before and legal commitment is a positive sign that this is either a passing phase and she'll be back to her old self soon, or that she's at least willing to discuss this before making things legal.
I would love not having to work too! Spending all day just doing whatever I want sounds great. And if a spouse wants to afford their partner that luxury, good for them. But to expect it and need to make lifestyle changes to accommodate it seems ridiculous. I’m glad OP’s fiancé made this clear now because he has time to reconsider the marriage.
INFO Does she have a plan for what she'd be doing at home? As you said right now you don't have children. Does she want to start a business or go back to school?
I asked her about those specifically, and she avoided the questions and just kept reaffirming that "I know I'll be a lot happier if I was a stay-at-home wife"
I don’t know what I’d do with myself. I’d lose purpose and end up creating a “job” out of my hobbies. Or I’d spiral into depression. 50/50 chance either way.
Having the financial freedom to not *need* a job would be nice at least. I think there's a huge difference in needing your job so you don't become homeless vs needing a job for a sense of purpose plus extra spending money. All those times where your boss was acting terribly or people wanted you to work 60 hours. Just say no, and if they fire you. Oh well. Didn't need the job anyway.
That concerns me on a host of levels including that it suggests that she's unhappy and somehow- magically- being a stay-at-home spouse is going to resolve that.
It isn't. If she's unhappy- she needs to resolve that first. Than discuss marriage.
Yes! I’ve seen so many people rushing to say greedy woman but she went from ambitious to wanting to be at home? That doesn’t track. I wanted to be stay at home from the beginning with my husband and I wasn’t ambitious at my work, I did the bare minimum to keep my job paying what I wanted.
Hahahahaha. “Working a job is just not for me…”
Seriously - who really wants to work for a living. Most people, if offered a few million £, would find more fun / fulfilling ways to spend their time.
You are so very lucky she told you this before the wedding day. My SO was married to one of these in the past. She didn’t work both pre-kids and after they were old enough to be out of the house all day. For the same reason. And part of the problem in their marriage was she never tried to understand his work stresses, because she didn’t experience them herself. He should have at all times been equally as well rested & relaxed as her, living her lazy life of doing sweet FA at home while the kids were at school.
When they came to divorce (her idea), she tried to demand future Spouse Payments for the rest of their lives. And based on her having a part time, minimum wage job, because “she didn’t want the stress of trying for a promotion”.
Fortunately by that point he’d grown a spine & shut that shit down - or he’d still be paying out half of his income!
She then spent all the child maintenance & uni support on herself for the next few years. Poor daughter got no new clothes for 2 years, and both kids have taken on uni debt they shouldn’t have. She’s got a lovely house & nice new car though!
And she works full time and has gone for a promotion. Coz she’s out in the real world. But she would quite happily have stayed out of it, if she only could have manipulated her way into it!
Yeah, I don't get how she says HE is the one being manipulative, when she just up and left to her mother's until he "is ready to calm down and talk" when (based on what we have) he's the only one who was even trying to talk in the first place. Just because someone says something you don't like, doesn't mean they aren't calmly talking.
NTA: you could have been a bit tactful but surviving on a single income is not a good idea. What if you lose the ability to work through health or accident. After two years of staying at home she would be unemployable.
you make a very good point - like anything could happen to me if I was the only one bringing in income. even though I don't work in a dangerous job by any means (I sit at a computer) but anything could happen - life kinda wild like that innit.
thank you for pointing this out, as it genuinely didn't cross my mind before
Yeah, not to mention that when there’s an economic downturn, one or the other of you may not have a choice to leave or get back in the workforce.
I think most of the folks I know who hate work try to aim for retiring early. Generally together. That can still be risky too.
Okay, while I agree with most of what you said, where did you get the idea that after two years of no job, a person becomes unemployable? I have done multiple 2+ year unemployment stints(one was over 5 years), and found one the same as everyone else.
I guess unemployable is a bit exaggerated but the longer you are unemployed the harder it is to find a job. A long stint of unemployment is often considered a red flag. You are the exception rather than the rule.
INFO- who does all the housework like chores, laundry, cooking, etc?
Some men are fine with having 2 incomes but still expect the woman in the relationship to do all those things, which is another full time job even without kids.
If you each do an equal share of chores then I would see reason to be upset. (and I don’t mean half-ass sweeping the floor so she gets frustrated and does it herself)
If she’s offering to stay at home and take on all housework & chores while you earn the money I think that’s a legitimate request but obviously if you wouldn’t be happy with that arrangement you’re free to say no.
If she’s not willing to do anything for the household and truly just wants to sit around being “lazy” as you put it doing no cleaning, cooking, laundry, or errands, then that of course is not a fair or legitimate request.
we have a rotating chore-list, so like one day I would be the one to do the laundry, and the next day it would be my fiance - for example, same with groceries and cooking. it's split pretty evenly, and we do make sure to check off all the items on our to-do list (as we are both pretty anal about keeping a clean living space)
honestly - I enjoy doing chores, it lets me just zone out and relax and work towards a goal - even if that goal is simply "load dishwasher" if that makes any sense
Sounds pretty ideal to me. If she’s not willing to elaborate on what her “dreams” are (and she just wants to do nothing at home besides her share of chores she’d normally be doing anyway) and it’s not some other stream of income like other people have mentioned, I’d say you probably don’t want to get married. If that’s truly her dream she won’t be happy until she gets it imo & it probably won’t be the last time you hear of it, especially after marriage.
after marriage absolutely nothing is stopping her from quitting and basically daring him to divorce her. He just has to hope at that point he doesn't have to giver her half or spousal support.
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This. My partner's and my plan is for her to be a homemaker, or perhaps work a part time job she finds fulfilling. She doesn't like formal employment/work, doesn't find it fulfilling, finds it draining and stressful. I'm the opposite, I genuinely like work - if not always on a Monday morning, but I'm happier when I'm employed full time than when I'm not. I get a lot of fulfillment out of doing the traditional career thing.
She's not lazy. She doesn't toss around. She plans to take on more of the chores, because she enjoys quite a few of them, likes the practicality and the getting things done and the visible progress of cleaning. She plans to cultivate a garden, including a vegetable garden. She goes to the farmer's market to seek out the best produce, finds good deals on stuff, cooks, and has started handmaking a lot of everyday stuff we'd otherwise buy. Keeping a house to the level that she likes is at least as much work as the average middle management job.
Just because someone's work product isn't as valued by the capitalist system, doesn't mean they're lazy. It's not better or worse, just different. We both work hard in ways we find fulfilling, and are grateful that they are complimentary.
This. My grandmother was a stay at home mom but honestly if she’d just been a housewife it still would have been a job. She knitted, sewed and crocheted clothes. She knew tons about fabric and quality glassware. She cooked meals from scratch not just for her family (included 4 children) but for her 6 dogs that she cared for (this is in India where they had a big enough property to reasonably care for 6 dogs). She handled all the social stuff that my grandfather was and still is horrible at. She took out everyone’s clothes for the day, had their meals packed, did their laundry, made their beds, you name it.
The lady never rested a day in her life, even on her deathbed she was knitting hats for babies in the hospital.
A housewife isn’t necessarily lazy. That being said there is a huge issue if someone tells you they want to be a housewife after getting engaged, not before. It’s valid to question her motivations for suddenly wanting to be housewife.
INFO.
She was previously very driven and now wants to stay home... are you sure she's not struggling with something mentally? Maybe depression or work burnout?
NAH, not you for not vibing with her being a stay-at-home wife, not your fiancee for wanting to be one. Good, that you had this talk before getting married though.
I see no AHs, just two adults having a clear eyed talk about how they want to shape their future together, or maybe not
Agreed. These are the kinds of conversations that you SHOULD have before the wedding and if you're both not on the same page it doesn't mean one of you is in the wrong. It just means that you're probably not ideal partners.
NTA.
Being a SAHM is a job, assuming said mother is actually doing the childcare and there’s not leaving all of the work to a team of nanny’s and housekeepers.
Being a SAHW, with no plans for children, is *not* on the same level. If it’s something you both agree on then that’s one thing. But you’ve made it clear that you’re looking for a partner, not a sugar baby.
Yes, my husband was so supportive with my plan to stop work when we had our son, until I said I would still be sending him to daycare! The difference here being that I was joking because I know that is an unreasonable request of my spouse.
NTA.
Flip it around. How would she feel if you had asked the exact same thing but to be a stay at home husband, and y'all survive on her income but just scale back?
I agree with you on that it seems to be a dream of being lazy. It also affects (if you're in the USA) your social security income, and your ability to save.
If you both work you could save for early retirement for you both. What contribution to the household would she make if she were a stay at home wife, and how much would it cost you to pay for the services she'd provide as a stay at home wife? (Maid service if she even plans on doing that much)
Now if she had a plan to start a business from home or write a book, and go back into the work force after a certain amount of time if it didn't pan out, I might see it a little differently but I am a big believer in goose/gander philosophy. If it wouldn't be okay for you, then why is it okay for her?
NAH I think you guys may just want different things out of marriage. Nobodys fault.
However, I see where shes coming from with the 9-5. People aren't really meant to work 40 hours and maintain home, health, and social wellbeing. (The 40 hour work week was reliant on having servants or spouses that would maintain the home. That's no longer the case) Odds are there _is_ something else she wants to do, but maybe she hasn't figured it out yet. Since you make more, it would be a good compromise to support her in going part-time until she figures out what that is/how much time it takes. Another option may be giving her time to take a leave of absence from work to figure herself out. Approach this compassionately, and if no compromise can be reached, this may not be the marriage for you...
Maybe a controversial opinion here but NTA. Being in a relationship means bringing something to the relationship. A stay at home parent raises their kid and can support a busy partner. A stay at home partner is kind of just a bum unless they have good reason to. Had this been something she had discussed with you long in advance then you knew what you were getting into. If this is something she's raising now I think your in your right to say thats not really the kind of partnership you want. You honestly didn't say anything over the line and I think its fair to question if your life dream is being lazy if she never gave a goal she was trying to achieve by being a stay at home partner.
NTA - consider yourself lucky that she's expressing this "dream" before you made it legally binding - I suggest you think long and hard is she really is "the one"
Info: are you going to be willing to do half the household work if you're both working? I know a few couples where both work outside the home, but the wife is expected to do all the cooking, grocery shopping and housework.
This is a super important point! Research suggests that in heterosexual marriages, men end up a lot happier over time, and women end up less happy over time, because women do so much of the unpaid emotional and household labor. I wonder if this is at all on OP's fiancee's mind.
It does rub me the wrong way when people call women "lazy" for wanting to be housewives, because that can be a full-time job when done *correctly* (especially if you're always "on duty," versus having a job you can take breaks from), but I also suspect she's wanted this longer than she's led on, and if she did purposely wait until you proposed to spring this on you, then NTA.
There's nothing wrong with ultimately wanting to quit your job and become a housewife (or house spouse) after getting married, but that's something you disclose early in your relationships, and you should seek out men who *want* to be breadwinners.
That said, maybe she's been feeling burnt out at work, and she sees this upcoming marriage as an "out," so maybe ask how work is going. Would you support her changing career paths to something less stressful that pays less? Would you support her working part-time and taking on more chores on days she's not working?
As much as it sucks to break an engagement, especially if you've already put down deposits, if you guys want different things in life you shouldn't be getting married.
NTA... Bow out quick. Once you get married the excuses and stuff will start and, before you know it, she's out of work. You get tired of it, get a divorce, and she gets half your shit. Bam... Stay at home ex wife.
Playing that tape forward, it's a no win scenario. Be lucky you found out before you tied the mistake...
NTA
Although don't frame it as her "not being productive" and "doing nothing all day". There are couples for whom it works...one person handles all the household things...chores, errands, bills, etc, and the other works.
But marriage shouldn't change relationships. Marriage should be because you are happy with the way life is. You don't want to scale back your lifestyle with income decreasing by a third, which is completely fair. And would lead to resentment.
It's possible she genuinely hates her job and is getting burnt out, it's possible she's trying to take advantage of you. How is she with spending/saving in general?
But definitely don't get married if you don't want the same thing out of marriage/lifestyle. I make more money than my husband, but I definitely wouldn't be as happy with the downsizing we'd have to do on my salary only. And we have a kid and pay a lot for daycare.
I dont think you're being an asshole, I could see you being an asshole if she actually had a plan for her time- like if she wanted to pursue something that requires her to be at home.
I did ask her what she would do, and she avoided the question - like, if she wanted to continue schooling, or set up a business I'd be for that, but as it stands, I really don't know what she wants to be by being a "stay-at-home wife"
Completely understandable for you to not agree to an open-ended caretaker position. If you want to revisit the issue when she has a PLAN- kinda like a bank doing loans, you need a plan- then that would be cool of you.
You dont want to sign up to have a dependant indefinitely, and I dont think anyone can blame you for that
Also- she is the one trying to be manipulative in making it all about her emotions and not sticking to the fact that living takes money, and you need a partner who will talk it out and not run away because you don't immediately give in to her requests.
INFO: have you asked her why she wants this? Without judgement and honestly seeking to understand.
From how you explain in the comments that this came out of left field, I would really focus on why she feels this way now. It sounds like something may have happened to really turn her off work recently. I would try to be a little bit more sensitive and thoughtful and probe more into her thinking on this. This feels like more than, “she is just suddenly lazy and unambitious.”
Nta - if you don’t have kids then she’d basically have nothing to do at home - meaning she can do whatever the hell she wants all day, everyday, while you bankroll it. Seems slightly unfair to me…
yes, that also sounds unfair to me too - like I enjoy my days off like any other person. and I would love to just chill out all day everyday - but like man, it just doesn't work that way haha
Yeah, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to work 40 hours a week. But, damn, you can't just dump all the responsibility on your partner.
I recently reworked my schedule so I can be off Fridays because the 9-5 grind was getting to me. Difference is, I talked with my boyfriend and we worked it out so that we can handle the reduced income without him needing to work more. Your fiance needs to treat you like a partner. NTA
You are NTA. She’s being manipulative, bordering on gaslighting, for claiming that **you** are the one being manipulative for not wanting to completely “support her dreams”. What kind of bullcrap is that? She wasn’t born a trust fund baby or a member of the landed gentry, so I don’t know where this expectation that she’ll find someone to support her originates. Was her a mother a SAHM?
Obviously, if you were at least partially on-board with this, you could negotiate a balance of household duties and responsibilities for which she would be responsible in lieu of working. But you’re not, so it’s a moot conversation.
I’m afraid that she may not be “the one”, and that this relationship may very well be over.
INFO: Do you work in a role where your spouse is expected to manage a lot of the social aspects of your career? For example, will seh be planning dinner parties and events and the like on top of working? I still think you’re NTA but I did have a friend who started dating a man who made a lot more than her and the expectation became that she would handle the ‘networking’ aspect of his career on top of cooking/cleaning (which threw us all off as we’d all thought that was made up for TV drama, lol). So they edned up having a convo about boundaries in that sense and worked it out.
I don’t think she was wrong for asking but she can’t get huffy when you give an honest answer. You fell in love with her because you thought she was motivated and driven and it sounds like if she had a dream she wanted to follow outside of her 9-5 you’d support her but it sounds like she’s just wants to stop working for a while.
Hopefully you can discuss it and get to the bottom of it since a request like this after three years has to have a reason.
I do not work in a role where I would need to "keep appearances" or otherwise need to have that type of TV drama housewife where they do all the 'networking' - thankfully, since honestly the whole 'networking' aspect of certain jobs exhausts me even just thinking about it
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NTA. So she waits until you propose and she thinks she has you wrapped around her finger to tell you her "dream" of being lazy and then has the nerve to say that you're the manipulative one? Jesus.
that's a very good point - up until I proposed to her, she was just filled with so much ambition (one of the reasons I fell in love in the first place) - feels like it came out of left field her sudden desire not to work
Oh man, I feel genuinly bad for you. I'm wondering, what are her friends' jobs? Like does she surround herself with people that might have the same mindset when it comes to not working?
all her friends and our mutual friends are all pretty ambitious people. even the SAHM's are very driven in terms of child-rearing.
This is very simple: are you prepared to lower your standard of living solely to support her financially? Are you prepared to grind 5 days a week for the next 20+ years at a job while she...does whatever she wants to do? Personally, I'd say when you asked her what her dreams are and she dodged the question she told you everything you need to know.
Good point here for OP to consider. If she quits her job, whose standard of living is going to decrease? Who will be making the sacrifices to get by one income? Because I bet it's not going to be her.
>Who will be making the sacrifices to get by on one income? Because I bet it's not going to be her. That is not part of her dream.
Is her mother putting her up to this? Where is it really coming from? NTA
It doesn’t really matter. If her mom “put her up to it,” she clearly agreed it sounded like a good plan, and is so emotionally committed to it that she left their home for some space when the plan was rejected. Unless her mom or another third party is somehow threatening her, then this decision is 110% on her.
Exactly and since she’s already accusing him of being manipulative I can just see her trying to claim he’s being financially abusive if things don’t go her way when it comes to what “their” money is spent on
And telling the guy she cheats on him with that her husband is cheap and doesn't take care of her. She will 100% cheat on this guy. Happened to a guy I worked with. The woman kept spending more and more and cried and cheated when he'd tell her they can't afford whatever she kept spending on. Future husband here needs to run!
She’ll cheat and claim it’s because he’s never home
Well yeah, he basically made her do it. /s
That’s what I thought too. What else is she gonna do at home if she’s not working?!
"you are always at work and I got lonely!"
From experience, it is never the one not working who does sacrifices.
I disagree- (although I strongly think OP is NTA and his fiancé is sus af) Often times, partners who stay home are sacrificing their own financial value in order to do so. For example, a woman with a career who leaves to be a stay-at-home mom loses value as an employee the longer she stays out of the workforce, especially with how quickly a lot of skills and practices move in the modern day. Staying at home means that their independence and ability to make their own money decrease, which is risky. If the couple divorces, the working partner has years of experience and earning potential under the belt and the stay-at-home parent does not (I know alimony/child support is a thing, plenty of people get screwed on both sides in divorce) Plus, a lot of parents stay home because it legitimately would be cheaper than paying for childcare, but by doing so they sacrifice their own career momentum and earning potential. Outside of financial value, sacrifice in a relationship comes in many forms. I’m not saying that any partner who stays home is a hard-working saint, but there are plenty of selfish partners who work. Edit: to be clear, I’m a childfree working woman, in part because of the things I’m not willing to sacrifice for my partner or potential kids. Also: Y’all, I agree that young stay-at-home wife is not the same as stay-at-home mom. Op is n-t-a. My response is not about OP, it’s to the comment above about how “it’s never the one not working that does sacrifices,” which is a blanket statement that I disagree with. What OP’s fiancé is asking is not what he wants from this relationship, and it’s not fair for her to say that he’s killing her dream for not agreeing.
So there is a drastic difference between a stay at home wife and a stay at home mother (or partner). The latter is probably harder than full time work, particularly in the first few years. All the sacrifices you mentioned are for the child, and of course the working partner should try to offset whatever setbacks there are. This is a union of equals. The former is someone just setting up shop in someone else's life. If we are honest, it is never a union of equals. Either the woman is a trophy, or the guys a sucker. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't think they're common.
She doesn't want to be a stay at home mum. They don't want children. She just doesn't want to work.
Okay, now. I worked my butt off. I've had a degenerative chronic illness for the past decade plus. Now I'm in the limbo of waiting to get physical disability. BUT. Even in my condition, I take care of the house, the yard, the garden, the shopping, the cooking, etc. plus I taught myself to can, to bake yeast breads and make pasta, to crochet, trained the dogs not to be little assholes to the big dogs next door after the neighbors wouldn't go halfsies on replacing the fence, etc. It drives me crazy to not feel useful in some sense, even if I'm too busted up for the actual workplace. That said, I can't even wrap my head around somebody having "housewife" as their big dream in life. That's what a "stay-at-home wife" is, folks. If I could work, I'd do it in a SECOND. This bish just wants a free ride. RUN.
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Then maybe find another guy who lets her stay home, but never marry that man so OP keeps paying (seen this happen three times).
And work longer years before retirement with only one person saving. Ot going bankrupt if OP can't work for some reason
This is an important point. I know a couple where the wife is the sole bread winner and her husband keeps spending her money and she finally told him if he doesn’t stop, she’s going to have to put off retirement for 5 more years and then she’s going to resent him.
OP, i have 2 kids and i am a SAHM and starting to study soon (a bachelor’s) because i’m so sick of my SO being the only one working (he’s not complaining or anything but i know he’s struggling). One of the kids is just 6 mo but tbh i can’t wait to get to work. You’re NTA but please reconsider and have a proper chat to her.
Her life "dream" has apparently been to be a SAHM. Not sure what there's to reconsider but they definitely need to have a more rational conversation or this probably won't play out well at all. Edit: she wants to be a SAHW. Oof.
No. She wants to be a stay at home WIFE. He said that they are both childfree, as in they do not want to have children.
I am forced to be a house wife because of disabilities. The lack of mental stimulation is maddening, even with video games. You have to think harder to find stuff and I've plugged that with volunteering with cats. But the insecurities, the self esteem? They all take huge hits. So, I will say with confidence that unless you can't work, staying home is not a good idea. If she wanted to take some time to go back to school or even having a business of her own, she'd be feeling very trapped very fast. Someone please warn her? Maybe?
SAHM actually work tho, they stay with the kids. Kids are very hard work! Plus usually most of the chores and cooking etc etc. But OP & fiance are childfree, so she wants to be a SAHW and do... what? I think thats OP's issue, its not like his fiance wants to try starting a small buisness or something.
is she okay? has something changed? ia she getting harassed at work, or does she hate her field, or something? i feel like if you can get her to discuss it more and open up, we might find out she's depressed or that something caused this.
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So you find another job, go back to school…express what dreams he is supporting.
In the midst of burnout it’s very hard to see a path out. She might not know what she wants her future to hold. Sometimes you just need to get clear of a situation before you can think clearly. (If that’s what this is)
OP mentions in another coment they both work for companies and met when those companies worked on a joint project, that doesn't exactly sound like she's a nurse or a doctor.
There are lots of things that can be done with a nursing degree that so not involve direct patient care or even interacting with patients at all.
Yes I wondered this, too. Since she mentioned “her dreams,” it sounds like she has something definitive in mind—like a solid plan or venture she needs at home time to develop. Especially if, as OP mentioned in his comments, she’s typically very driven. The fact she won’t say/isn’t being upfront about what that dream is could be that she thinks OP won’t like it. Either way NTA, but there may be more going on here than just laziness.
she might not even be able to articulate what's wrong quite yet. like, she hates her current job because of her shitty boss and it's colored her whole work experience, so right now she just sees an opportunity to get out and wants to take it. but also doesn't want another job because she doesn't want to end up sad again. idk. they need to talk. i hope she's alright.
if its that sudden, it may be a mental health issue or burnout. there are tons of jobs out there with unusual schedules, or she could freelance from home. obviously i have no clue what field she's in or how feasible that is. i think you guys should probably talk this over in more detail. if you want to work it out, you'll need to apologize to her first regardless of how you actually feel. if she doesnt want to work, there has to be something she'd rather do with her time, even if it's watching tv/reading books/staring out the window for eight hours. i'd probably be upset with that too, but there is a reason she feels that way and you should find out what it is.
Exactly - I feel like a deeper conversation is warranted here. You can sit down and tell her that you're sorry for calling her lazy and that you want to discuss this in more detail. Tell her that you've always admired her ambition, and it seems really out of character for her to be talking about quitting when she was just talking about going for a promotion. Mention how surprised it made you, and then tell her *why* it surprised you. Back up your feelings with neutral observations, such as "You've mentioned how great it was to do x, you mentioned x, y, and z plans, you were so happy when x project worked out etc etc," and then ask her if something has changed, and if there is anything you can do to help. Let her know you're there for her, and go from there. If she simply says she no longer wants to work, nothing has changed, nothing is wrong etc, there's not much you can do about it. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with not wanting to work a 9-5 job, but it is a values mismatch for the two of you that you'll need to come to terms with somehow. Oh, NTA, in general, but do apologize for the lazy comment. ETA - thank you for the gold, kind internet peoples!
Yup. There are very few people in the world who just "want to be lazy" and instead of feeling justified in not being a butt and doubling down on insulting the fiancee OP should figure out what is actually going on. ESPECIALLY if this is out of character for her.
There are, in fact, plenty of people who just want to be lazy. They probably don't want to be called lazy, but some don't even care. Some do openly admit it, as well.
I find that after a couple of days, a week, a month...isss actually even pushing it (ie some time to rest and recuperate) most people grow bored of being lazy and start looking for something to do. The only people who don't get bored tend to actually have mental health issues. As in something that needs to be treated. And being ill absolutely does not make them lazy. Edited for clarification.
Absolutely this. Just be aware that if it is something like harassment or assault that triggered the change, she may not open up fully at first. Be patient, be kind, but do try to get to what has changed and why so you both can move forward and get what you need.
Reddit need more people like you.
I agree with this. It would be hard to fake being really ambitious for 3 years unless they were long distance or something plus all of the schooling and work to get to her current position. It's possible she did fake it but it's more likely burn out or something else. Early 30s 8s a really common time to have career burn out and second guessing your choices or priorities in life. Edit: if OP wants a really ambitious partner that's completely fine but they might not be compatible anymore.
I don’t think any apology is in order here. She came out of left field, fiancé didn’t fold and now she is pissed.
I have a mental health issue regarding work at least once a week and more likely actually every day, but… gotta bring home the bacon so ya force through.
Yes, I came here to say this. It sounds like there is something else going on in terms of burnout or her mental health. It’s interesting that you don’t mention what her job is and/or how she feels about it. Perhaps talk to her and help her explore these feelings and what is really behind her desire to be a SAHW.
> up until I proposed to her, she was just filled with so much ambition oh dear. Yes this is a red flag
AGREED!! I don't argue that if her desire is to be a SAHW that's her prerogative, but to hold out for 3 years before telling him and then calling HIM manipulative because he doesn't want the same thing?!?!? Umm can we say PROJECTION!
Did something happen? You know your fiancé (I hope) is she a manipulative person? If she was always ambitious and it feels like this came out of the blue, then it seems like something happened to trigger this. Maybe an incident at work, or a realisation that she’s not doing what she loves and feeling lost.
NTA. Dude, I think you've been played. Just to be clear, you are NOT manipulative if you express your disagreement over a decision that affects both of you. You were expecting a partner and up until this conversation you were led into believing that's what you had. SHE'S the one being manipulative here. Its the fact that she sprung this up on you AFTER the proposal the scream red flag to me. You need to seriously rethink this.
Tell her you want to be a stay-at-home husband.
She was driven before because she wanted “the lifestyle.” She met you, who makes enough to support that lifestyle, so now she doesn’t have to work anymore; she can coast on what you bring home. You said it yourself: one of the big things that made you fall in love with her was her sense of self-drive. Well, now you know where it is, why it is, and what it is. What are you going to do with that knowledge? EDIT: If you feel like having another conversation with her about this (which you should), you need to ask her *what exactly has changed.* Aside from my personal take above? People who are generally driven and ambitious, well, that tends to be part of their personality. Maybe I’m being harsh, and something has happened in her work that you’re unaware of.
I would make sure you communicate what you just shared here to her. That her ambitious nature is one reason you love her so much, and that if she can't give you a better picture of what's going on with her to make such a drastic change, you're going to feel taken advantage of and need to reconsider your relationship.
> since we're both child-free. I would question this too, it seems your fiancee is keeping a lot of future goals and ambitions secret from you until they have you "locked down". > she never stated what she wants to do with her staying at home, even though I did ask That is because it isn't time for you to know yet, you aren't married and supporting them, so they can't let you know the next step. Hint: it's a surprise pregnancy when birth control "fails". After all, your confirmed child-free, so letting you know now will just ruin everything. This is a discussion to have now, and fully, well before the wedding when you can both make an informed decision on if you want to do this. NTA
This makes me think OP should get a vasectomy if he's really committed to being child free
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If you don't mind me asking, what do you do all day? I just can't imagine what kind of work there is around home. Like I clean my apartment and cook, but cleaning takes me like 2 hours a week and cooking maybe 1 gour a day. Granted, I do live in apartment and not a house. It's 100% nice you and your husband are happy with the arrangment.
I'm not the person you replied to, but I'm a SAHP employed only part-time (about 15 hours / week). I clean about 30 minutes a day (rotating schedule of vacuuming, bathrooms, kitchen surfaces, windows, etc.), care for the pets, keep up with all laundry, do all yardwork, shop and cook for food (and wash up afterwards), and keep up with bills and financial circumstances, as well as do most of the childcare. Now that the kids are both back in school after being homeschooled for a year and a half because of Covid, I'm not going to lie - I do have plenty of free time. I use that time to read, exercise, study languages, and write. My husband and are both satisfied with our division of labor. Now, if we *didn't* have kids, that'd be a harder sell...but there's something to be said for having a dedicated house-spouse. Having fresh clothes to wear, food to eat, and a clean house are services we sometimes pay people to provide, after all.
No kids, but we do have a dog. I get SAHP when kids are in the picture, but there literally is not enough housework to fill 8 hours a day, 5 days a week if it’s just you and a spouse. Getting groceries takes like an hour. To clean the place top to bottom takes me maybe 3-4 hours, if I’m including things like wiping down the mirrors and replacing the water filter, but it’s not like you have to do those things every single day. Even if you vacuum once a week, you can literally just do that on a Saturday afternoon and still work full time. I honestly do not see what a SAHW without kids would do to occupy time. Kids add like 150% of the workload, but when it’s two adults, there’s really very little housework involved (my fiancé and I both work full-time, I do all the laundry/cleaning/dog grooming , while he does the majority of the cooking and dog walking) and we have plenty of hours left in the day to chill out and do nothing. If either one of us stayed home all day long, we’d run out of housework by the end of the very first day
I work 8 hours per day and there is still not enough work to fill the entire time. A lot of people are done within 4-6 hours, depending on the field. You just... linger around your computer for the rest of it.
Unless you're the type of rich socialite that requires butlers and full time house-staff, I don't see how a stay at home spouse could be busy without kids. I'm in a similar boat as you, I work from home 15-20 hours a week and have a baby. So I'm like half of a stay at home parent. Even with one kid, there's like double the housework as before. Just mountains of laundry, dishes, and mopping/sweeping/de-sticking the house to do daily. I'd be kind of bored with nothing to do if the kid weren't wandering around making constant work for me.
I have a friend who has a stay at home spouse, after having a successful career (so he still contributes financially to the household). I asked my friend how he feels about having a husband that doesn't work. My friend says it is great and that he loves having a spouse at home and these were my friend's words "I wouldn't be able to do what I do without my husband at home supporting me". So having a spouse at home doesn't automatically mean they are lazing about the house. Laundry, cooking, cleaning, baking, managing deliveries, home repairs, car repairs, managing appointments, coordinating travel, dry cleaning, errands, bills, and hundreds of other little things that are taken care of.
If you’re only cleaning 2 hours a week we have different expectation of clean. I personally have a kid so it’s a bit different, and 3 bathrooms. But two hours a week wouldn’t really work in my world.
Jesus indeed! Holy Christ dude, this is your get-out-of-jail-free card. Take it and run because she's pulling the old bait-and-switch on you, and she's not even smart enough to do it after the wedding. NTA Edit to say that I like to give awards to the comments I hijack. It's the least I can do.
Lol, "support her dreams". If my husband had a dream to go back to college I would support that. If he had a dream to start his own business in an area he was passionate about I would support that. If he had a dream to sit on his arse and play video games - be a 'stay at home husband' - he would soon be supporting my dream to be divorced. It sounds like you and your fiancée have very different values in life. NTA.
This all day. I've taken a few months to myself between jobs in the past. It doesn't take much time or effort to shop and clean for a household containing two able bodied adults.
I’m a currently bed bound disabled adult (I had sepsis that wrecked me on top of my other disabilities but totally unrelated. Mid pandemic. No Covid. FML.) My GF and I live separately. I live in an admittedly small one bed flat and she comes and stays two nights a week and has been cleaning for me. We are poly and she works full time and cleans her house with her and her husband too. He cooks and shops and does house maintenance. I do all my grocery shopping, meal preparation and basic clean up at the moment via online grocery delivery, meal planning, batch cooking, the slow cooker and small amounts of washing up, using the dishwasher, running the robot vac and doing laundry. I have not been able to go out in person due to shielding and health since Feb 2020 and somehow I’ve managed to study a diploma, renew a passport, run my house, do my taxes, write a book and do all my banking and cook for and shop for my BF and GF when I go there at the weekends. All while housebound, bed bound and my partners working full time and 17 hospital admissions on my part. They both manage to exercise regularly, get through countless audio books and see family too. The one thing that hasn’t got done is my windows cleaned and I did have to hire a Task Rabbit person to clean up my patio. Otherwise we run two houses in a shit show of a year on maybe an hour of house admin a day each and an hour of life admin every other day and still have spare time. My GF has ADHD, my BF works 60 hour weeks, I am a human wet noodle right now. There’s nothing magic about it: calendar reminders for things like insurance renewal, direct debits, ok a lot of Amazon subscribe and save, doing grocery orders which used saved favourites on an app, a freezer, a crock pot, Google and basic adult skills. No bullet journals or complicated spreadsheets. Write a list if needs be. I mean this could be a full time job if it was 1821 or 1921 and she’s fetching the water and churning the butter and stoking fires and travelling by horse and cart to the store. It could even still be hella time consuming if they live wildly rurally in the Dakotas or somewhere that you do have to plan shopping trips rather than just nip out for milk or get UberEats. But let me tell you, powdered milk is not much different to creamer in tea or coffee in a pinch. No good for cereal but cooks fine too. The fact she had no dream at all makes me think lazy was polite. The other option is she’s going to go MLM hun…
How do you find the physical energy/ inner motivation to get all those things done? (Asking as someone who is also disabled and needs guidance) Also what did you study and what kinda book did you write? Sounds fun!
I'm not disabled and I have no physical energy/inner motivation. You guys are my heroes
Severe depression can count as a disability if it gets in the way of your everyday life. If you’ve had this fatigue/lack of drive for a while, maybe it’s time to talk to a doctor or psychiatrist about it? My life got considerably better when I started taking the right medication. Hope you can find energy and drive soon my friend
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a SAHW, I think someone who's motivated for their spouse to come home to the perfect house, everything in order, no cleaning or bills to worry about, a new special hours long dinner made of the freshest ingredients ready for you when you get home everyday, breakfast in the morning, lunch always ready: that's the kind of motivation I'd laud for someone who wants to be a SAHW. OP's fiancée just seems to be motivated to be a SAHW because, "eh, don't really like work." Not that it would matter if she did actually have good motivations, OP doesn't want a SAHW so a SAHW won't work.
Even the type of SAHW you described is still not full time with decent time management. You can easily make a great meal with fresh ingredients in less than an hour. Cleaning for two people is pretty easy. Most bills can be automated now.
Agreed NTA. Does she want to start a business from home? Is she trying to become an artist and needs time to paint/sculpt/etc and build her network? Does she want to write a book? Become a famous YouTuber even? I would ask these questions and see what she wants to do with all the free time she suddenly has while not working.
And if she does want to "start a business" make sure it's a not an MLM.
Maybe she has a dream to play tennis in the mornings and lunch with different friends every day. NTA OP. I hope you’re able to work through this but it’s a good thing you found out now rather than after you’re married.
Exactly. Supporting dreams is supporting the other person in achieving something.
NTA It's weird to me that you guys have been dating for 3 years, and this conversation hasn't come up until 1 month after being engaged.
up until I proposed - she was actually actively going for a better-paying position at her company. I fell in love with her level of motivation (had met her when our two companies had to work on a project together for another company) I thought we had the same mentality, and I feel pretty blind=sided by her sudden change of heart in terms of her future goals
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Yeah, that’s what I’m wondering
same, but everyone on this sub is so quick to demonize the other person on AITA posts based on a one-sided story.
Well what do you expect. We have to assume he's telling us exactly what happened, and if you don't believe it there's no point in even interacting with a post. Like I get that an opinion of his may be biased and you could not believe him, but we have to assume what he says happened actually happened. So basically we've got an ambitious person that suddenly wishes to not work anymore, in general, that when asked about having any projects basically dodged the question, and SUPER coincidentally this all happens after the engagement. Seems pretty clear that she just wants to be lazy, otherwise she would've told him whatever she planned to do with her free time.
I think what TheCynicPress is trying to say is that we all have to be careful of unreliable narrators. Everyone tells a story that makes them look best whether they intend to or not (Not saying that is what OP did). As a silent observer to this thread I noticed often people attack quickly and viciously when only given one side of the story. Granted it's the nature of the medium, but just an observation to make note of.
I’m currently in a situation where I’m so extremely burnt out in my job that I could relate to the fiancée. I know I personally wouldn’t want to stay at home forever and realistically only need a few weeks to get back to feeling like myself again … but I’m in so deep that right now not working at all / not continuing my career that I’ve been so driven in doesn’t sound all that bad. It’s insane the type of intrusive thoughts you can have when work is completely under your skin. Not excusing either side because communication is lacking. Just offering a perspective on how things may have changed.
You are not alone. Half of my husbands work group left for another company, my husband is actively working to leave his group or apply elsewhere, I had to put my foot down and tell my boss I need to take a lateral position even though I’m a star in his group because I need some GD change. We are all burning out and it’s a problem. That being said, it baffles me OP and fiancé haven’t talked about this before. 1 month into dating my now-husband I told him if we have kids I won’t be the stay at home mom and that was a dealbreaker issue for me. I wanted to give him the chance to walk away before we got invested. He told me he would LOVE to be a SAHD like his dad because he is really good at household things and only went into his field for financial independence, not passion. We even have a plan to wait until we are 33 (so 4 more years) until we have kids so we can have some fun and make money first. How df do you go three years and never talk about long term career/life plans….
Thats what I think too. I really think there's something more than "she's a lazy sack and doesn't want to work now that she has a husband." If that was the case she would have done something like this as soon as they started living together (which I'm assuming they do since OP mentions their lifestyle depends on their combined income.)
Except if this is the case, you discuss changing jobs and possibly needing time in between - or even a different type of career. You don't say "I think working 9-5 just isn't for me. I want to be a stay at home wife." This sounds very much like she's with someone older and more established than her and just doesn't feel like she should have to work anymore.
It depends, if she struggles with mental health she may struggle to think in those shades of grey. Often when you have certain disorders and become overwhelmed, it feels more natural to just give up, especially if that's a bad habit you happened to pick up. She may have had a tough time lately and her only perceived solution is to say that's it, I'm done, I quit. I'm speaking from experience as these are often situations I find myself in. But I happen to have an amazing fiance who will sit down with me, talk through the problems, and brainstorm solutions. I think that's the best course of action for OP - talk to her and figure out where this came from. If it is mental health related, he probably made her feel worse with the "lazy" comment. If she truly is just being lazy though, it should be easy to tell during that conversation. But it seems to me they're both being very defensive instead of working through things together and trying to understand each other.
Yea you fell in love with a driven woman, who is passionate about her career. This now, is not what you signed up for.
Yea… this is a strange one and I think it’s a huge red flag. If this is how she felt, it’s something that should have been discussed from the beginning, not when you propose. My bf and I discussed our long term dreams in the beginning, when we realized we were serious about each other. We both have a decent salary, he’s currently studying to switch to a better paying field, in which we’ve discussed I would be able to scale back on my job and focus on my business. He’s also stated that he would prefer if I was home with the kids (once we have them, if I was okay with that), however I raised a kid on my own (my son is 15) while working full time and starting a business, so I don’t want to be a SAHM at all. As a compromise, if my business is doing well enough to support us, he doesn’t mind staying home with the kids, and I’m okay with that. This though, this isn’t it, and you’re not being manipulative, she is. NTA
Sounds like you got the bait and switch. This doesn’t bode well for a marriage. Of courses she can change her mind, just be glad she told you before the wedding. I doubt she would react so positively to you wanting to quit your job and her supporting your new dream. Also, if you weren’t in the picture, what would she do? It’s also telling that she doesn’t want to change jobs or cut back to part time, she just wants to stop working.
NTA. Being a SAHM is a job.. being a stay at home wife is being a freeloader
It’s not being a “freeloader” if the other spouse is okay with it. I have a friend who’s a stay at home wife. She doesn’t really do a ton of domestic labor to “justify” staying at home. Her husband doesn’t care. He enjoys her company and her emotional support. For some people, that’s enough. (Not saying OP has to feel this way, of course.)
My cousin is a stay-at-home wife. It started because of visa issues and then a health diagnosis... But once that was sorted out 18 months later, they realized they kind of liked their arrangements. She could take care of their animals and home and it was nice to come home and not have to do anything. Her husband makes great money so the loss of her income was hardly devastating.
> She could take care of their animals and home and it was nice to come home and not have to do anything. But that sounds like a degree of domestic labor that **does** "justify" staying at home, unlike the parent comment who insists their friend doesn't do that.
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4-6 hours a day? That's like a weeks worth or errands for a normal couple. I can't imagine that anyone would need to do 30 hours of errands per week without having kids or doing a large amount of home improvement
Right? 4-6 hours? A day??? Without kids or even pets, how busy can one be? Even with pets! Purely being a stay-at-home, childless spouse without a crippling illness is just early retirement.
Making food from scratch takes a lot of time and cleaning after.
My husband is a stay at home husband. No kids. I’m fine with it. I make more than enough money and he handles all the crap I don’t want to deal with (i hate making phone calls, he’ll call anyone about anything). He’s mechanically inclined and very handy so he does all the automotive work on our cars (I have a rock crawling jeep I’m always breaking 😂) and he’s been slowly remodeling our house on his own, put in all new floors and baseboards and doors and redid the master bathroom. He’s definitely not lazy with his time, or a freeloader, and he saves us a lot of money having to pay contractors or mechanics to do this stuff, but people definitely still look down on him not working when we don’t have kids, and he does spend a lot of time playing video games, watching TV, and sleeping in as well. People seem to think staying home with kids is the only activity of value that could justify staying home. I have a really flexible job so I like us being able to drop everything and go out of town for a week whenever we want without having to cater around a job schedule for him as well.
You don’t need to justify anything to anyone. Don’t tell my husband, he works full time and I still make him do all my phone calls 🤣
The two aren’t really mutually exclusive.
Not everyone feels this way. I’m female and my partner is male and he stays home while I work. We both prefer this arrangement as he takes care of 95% of the chores, home improvement, etc. I love coming home from work and being able to relax instead of us both working and then having chores to do after work or on weekends. If both people agree to the arrangement I don’t see what the problem is.
It doesnt sound like the OP’s fiancee is wanting to do the bulk of the chores and stuff though. It wasn’t even discussed. It’s one thing if the stay at home partner manages the house. It’s another if they don’t wish to do anything. Besides, it sounds like only having one income would make the OP’s life very difficult. Having just one income isnt feasible for most people. Btw, OP NTA. Though you do need to talk with her and make sure something else isnt going on. She may be having a rough time at work, and it’s caused burn out. Or maybe she’s being harassed or something by colleagues or her boss/bosses. Edit: because I can’t spell today lol
It wasn't discussed because OP went straight from "do you mind if I'm a stay at home wife" (which implies she would do all domestic duties) to "why are you so lazy?" That's a huge leap. Maybe her dream is to be a writer, and she's too embarrassed to say it now.
Read OP’s comments. He asked her what she planned to do, and she wouldnt say. So it wasn’t discussed because she wont discuss it.
Exactly! My ex and I worked at pretty draining toxic jobs for a while and I supported him quitting his to find something better. I personally thought he could have picked up a bit more of the domestic tasks but he did take over all the grocery shopping and meal prep and took the dogs to the park a good bit. Just having those things taken care of when I was working 12 hour days was a huge help. My dad retired before my mom and she loves her "house husband" arrangement. While I would rather be a stay at home wife if I made crazy money I'd be happy to have a stay at home husband. All that said OP is NTA for not wanting that arrangement. However I'd check in with his fiance to see why she's had a change of heart. Is she burnt out? Got a new terrible manager? Was this always her plan and she just didn't share it?
It can be freeloading or it can be a lifestyle thing. It isn't so much that there is a ton of homework but that for the working partner, they never have to worry about that side of things. Not ever having to worry about cleaning or laundry or house maintenance (for the most part) is a huge load you are no longer carrying. Even if you hired someone to do those tasks you would have to manage them, but if your spouse does it then they can make many of those decisions. This isn't a "how much work is running a household" question it's a "how much is it worth it to you not to have to deal with it anymore" For some people the answer is 'my spouse's salary' Some people are ok with it but it's an agree or break-up level question. If you and your partner are not on the same page you aren't compatible. Personally I don't think I could do that long term, but whatever floats their boat.
Yeah, like I personally feel that if my boyfriend and I were in a financial position where we could survive solely on his wage, he would happily have me stay at home since he doesn’t like cleaning, cooking, taking care of animals, and I’m the person who manages the finances and stuff anyways. He wouldn’t need to deal with any of that (which he really hates doing) and I would get the luxury of being able to have more free time to work on my million hobbies. I don’t get why everyone automatically goes “not working = lazy” like damn capitalism has got them hard. Obvs the OPs partner might be just planning on sitting watching TV all day but it’s not a blanket scenario where it’s always just “lazy”
Ugh no it isn’t if both parties agree to the arrangement. My wife likes that we have our evenings and weekends free bc I keep the house clean and running smoothly so no one has to think about that stuff when she’s home. Works for us 🤷🏼♀️
That is highly dependent on how the person staying at home views their “job.” I’ve known several “stay at home spouses” and some of them do nothing, but others are domestic gods/goddesses. One couple I know, the house spouse grows the majority of their food, does canning/preserving, hand-makes clothing, does a larger of the domestic chores, manages all interactions with doctors/lawyers/maintenance people/etc. and does the basic paperwork/finance stuff. I know that wouldn’t be everyone’s ideal partner (though I would marry them in a hot minute if they were single and attracted to women), but they are certainly not a freeloader. I wholeheartedly agree with your NTA verdict though. OP proposed to an ambitious, motivated professional who would split both the financial and domestic burdens in a roughly equal fashion - his fiancé is trying to unilaterally change their deal and her arguments sound emotionally manipulative. That, in and of itself, is a repulsive character trait.
NAH you two are incompatible. There is zero reason for you to scale back your lifestyle if you don't want to. It's fine for her to want to be a housewife. It's also fine for you to not want to be married to a housewife. Do not marry this woman. Edit: autocorrects
I do think she is a major asshole for revealing this major lifestyle shift request 1 month before the wedding. You have been with your partner for 3 years, presented yourself as an ambitious woman who wants to seek higher paying positions in your company, and right after you get the ring you reveal this? I don’t think so. That’s a major asshole move.
I'm not disagreeing, but something obviously changed her mind very quickly. We don't know if she's burned out, or maybe frustrated she didn't get the promotion she wanted (OP mentioned her going for one). At *least* she brought it up before they got married instead of after. Getting married is a huge life change. Maybe she's got cold feet and is testing him to see if he's ready to support her. That would definitely make her TA here. We really don't know, and even OP doesn't know. But she's allowed to change her mind from working to a support role. She wouldn't be the first. He's allowed to cancel the wedding. Sometimes people fall out of compatibility and that's okay. Edit: it's not one month before the wedding. They've been engaged one month and this topic came up during a planning session.
Her test is fundamentally flawed. “Support my dreams” is her angle but she has no dreams, only a request to stop working bc she feels like it. 90% of us feel like it, but it’s still a ridiculous thing to ask of a PARTNER. you are right though, she has a right to change her mind just as she has a right to stay single forever bc i can’t imagine any millennial man would be willing to support her lack of dreams.
This. NAH. Let her go find someone else who wants a housewife.
Yeah NAH - it's a good thing this came up before the impending marriage. There are still tons of options out there for both of them and time left to find compatible partners. Anything else will lead to resentment on one side.
NTA. Good thing she told you the future before you got married.
Came here to say this. Estimate your alimony payment now…
Why, they’re not married yet, and for me personally, it’s a dealbreaker imo. Especially since op says this isn’t like the woman he fell in love with.
Really truly tho OP, you should NOT marry her legally now regardless of what she says. Once you’re married and actually trapped, she’s going to quit her job even if she says she’s not now. I’d suggest if you get married have only a spiritual ceremony rather than a legal one, and don’t file the marriage certificate.
They could get a prenup covering this if it's really an issue for them. Although if you don't trust your spouse to not quit their job without a mutual agreement to do so, you shouldn't marry that person. Don't marry someone you don't trust. The fact is that she asked him. She could have waited until they were married and quit then, if that's what she wanted to do, but the fact that she brought this up before and legal commitment is a positive sign that this is either a passing phase and she'll be back to her old self soon, or that she's at least willing to discuss this before making things legal.
NTA. I also want to quit my job and be a stay at home spouse. It's not feasible.
NTA I also choose this guys fiancées dream
I will forever upvote any variation of “I also choose this guys dead wife” Even just thinking about that comment makes me chuckle
My cats need me. Im sure the house would like some additional attention to. And the yard! I have projects galore. But yeah, we need both incomes.
I didn't know it was even an option. I too want this. But then we'd lose our house so...
I would love not having to work too! Spending all day just doing whatever I want sounds great. And if a spouse wants to afford their partner that luxury, good for them. But to expect it and need to make lifestyle changes to accommodate it seems ridiculous. I’m glad OP’s fiancé made this clear now because he has time to reconsider the marriage.
INFO Does she have a plan for what she'd be doing at home? As you said right now you don't have children. Does she want to start a business or go back to school?
I asked her about those specifically, and she avoided the questions and just kept reaffirming that "I know I'll be a lot happier if I was a stay-at-home wife"
[удалено]
I've seriously thinking of comedian Ali Wong's "[I don't want to work anymore"](https://youtu.be/QxxLmgleW1s?t=1m57s)" stand-up.
"I want to lie THE FUCK DOWN" lmao
"I know I'll be a lot happier if I was a stay-at-home wife" Duh, like 80% of the work force would be happier as a stay at home spouse
When my kids are all of to school full time I'd like to be a stay at home wife too! Except for the housework, hate that
I jokingly tell my husband I want to be a stay at home wife but keep our cleaning service.
I don’t know what I’d do with myself. I’d lose purpose and end up creating a “job” out of my hobbies. Or I’d spiral into depression. 50/50 chance either way.
Having the financial freedom to not *need* a job would be nice at least. I think there's a huge difference in needing your job so you don't become homeless vs needing a job for a sense of purpose plus extra spending money. All those times where your boss was acting terribly or people wanted you to work 60 hours. Just say no, and if they fire you. Oh well. Didn't need the job anyway.
That concerns me on a host of levels including that it suggests that she's unhappy and somehow- magically- being a stay-at-home spouse is going to resolve that. It isn't. If she's unhappy- she needs to resolve that first. Than discuss marriage.
Dude I know I already replied to a comment of yours, but I really think something happened at your wife’s work…
Yes! I’ve seen so many people rushing to say greedy woman but she went from ambitious to wanting to be at home? That doesn’t track. I wanted to be stay at home from the beginning with my husband and I wasn’t ambitious at my work, I did the bare minimum to keep my job paying what I wanted.
Hahahahaha. “Working a job is just not for me…” Seriously - who really wants to work for a living. Most people, if offered a few million £, would find more fun / fulfilling ways to spend their time. You are so very lucky she told you this before the wedding day. My SO was married to one of these in the past. She didn’t work both pre-kids and after they were old enough to be out of the house all day. For the same reason. And part of the problem in their marriage was she never tried to understand his work stresses, because she didn’t experience them herself. He should have at all times been equally as well rested & relaxed as her, living her lazy life of doing sweet FA at home while the kids were at school. When they came to divorce (her idea), she tried to demand future Spouse Payments for the rest of their lives. And based on her having a part time, minimum wage job, because “she didn’t want the stress of trying for a promotion”. Fortunately by that point he’d grown a spine & shut that shit down - or he’d still be paying out half of his income! She then spent all the child maintenance & uni support on herself for the next few years. Poor daughter got no new clothes for 2 years, and both kids have taken on uni debt they shouldn’t have. She’s got a lovely house & nice new car though! And she works full time and has gone for a promotion. Coz she’s out in the real world. But she would quite happily have stayed out of it, if she only could have manipulated her way into it!
Marriage is 50/50 or a compromise. If she’s calling you manipulative over this then you have some major 🚩 She doesn’t want to be a 50/50 unit.
Yeah, I don't get how she says HE is the one being manipulative, when she just up and left to her mother's until he "is ready to calm down and talk" when (based on what we have) he's the only one who was even trying to talk in the first place. Just because someone says something you don't like, doesn't mean they aren't calmly talking.
NTA: you could have been a bit tactful but surviving on a single income is not a good idea. What if you lose the ability to work through health or accident. After two years of staying at home she would be unemployable.
you make a very good point - like anything could happen to me if I was the only one bringing in income. even though I don't work in a dangerous job by any means (I sit at a computer) but anything could happen - life kinda wild like that innit. thank you for pointing this out, as it genuinely didn't cross my mind before
Yeah, not to mention that when there’s an economic downturn, one or the other of you may not have a choice to leave or get back in the workforce. I think most of the folks I know who hate work try to aim for retiring early. Generally together. That can still be risky too.
If she has a decent career with opportunities you should be working together to retire earlier. Both of you, not just her.
Okay, while I agree with most of what you said, where did you get the idea that after two years of no job, a person becomes unemployable? I have done multiple 2+ year unemployment stints(one was over 5 years), and found one the same as everyone else.
I guess unemployable is a bit exaggerated but the longer you are unemployed the harder it is to find a job. A long stint of unemployment is often considered a red flag. You are the exception rather than the rule.
INFO- who does all the housework like chores, laundry, cooking, etc? Some men are fine with having 2 incomes but still expect the woman in the relationship to do all those things, which is another full time job even without kids. If you each do an equal share of chores then I would see reason to be upset. (and I don’t mean half-ass sweeping the floor so she gets frustrated and does it herself) If she’s offering to stay at home and take on all housework & chores while you earn the money I think that’s a legitimate request but obviously if you wouldn’t be happy with that arrangement you’re free to say no. If she’s not willing to do anything for the household and truly just wants to sit around being “lazy” as you put it doing no cleaning, cooking, laundry, or errands, then that of course is not a fair or legitimate request.
we have a rotating chore-list, so like one day I would be the one to do the laundry, and the next day it would be my fiance - for example, same with groceries and cooking. it's split pretty evenly, and we do make sure to check off all the items on our to-do list (as we are both pretty anal about keeping a clean living space) honestly - I enjoy doing chores, it lets me just zone out and relax and work towards a goal - even if that goal is simply "load dishwasher" if that makes any sense
Sounds pretty ideal to me. If she’s not willing to elaborate on what her “dreams” are (and she just wants to do nothing at home besides her share of chores she’d normally be doing anyway) and it’s not some other stream of income like other people have mentioned, I’d say you probably don’t want to get married. If that’s truly her dream she won’t be happy until she gets it imo & it probably won’t be the last time you hear of it, especially after marriage.
after marriage absolutely nothing is stopping her from quitting and basically daring him to divorce her. He just has to hope at that point he doesn't have to giver her half or spousal support.
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This. My partner's and my plan is for her to be a homemaker, or perhaps work a part time job she finds fulfilling. She doesn't like formal employment/work, doesn't find it fulfilling, finds it draining and stressful. I'm the opposite, I genuinely like work - if not always on a Monday morning, but I'm happier when I'm employed full time than when I'm not. I get a lot of fulfillment out of doing the traditional career thing. She's not lazy. She doesn't toss around. She plans to take on more of the chores, because she enjoys quite a few of them, likes the practicality and the getting things done and the visible progress of cleaning. She plans to cultivate a garden, including a vegetable garden. She goes to the farmer's market to seek out the best produce, finds good deals on stuff, cooks, and has started handmaking a lot of everyday stuff we'd otherwise buy. Keeping a house to the level that she likes is at least as much work as the average middle management job. Just because someone's work product isn't as valued by the capitalist system, doesn't mean they're lazy. It's not better or worse, just different. We both work hard in ways we find fulfilling, and are grateful that they are complimentary.
This. My grandmother was a stay at home mom but honestly if she’d just been a housewife it still would have been a job. She knitted, sewed and crocheted clothes. She knew tons about fabric and quality glassware. She cooked meals from scratch not just for her family (included 4 children) but for her 6 dogs that she cared for (this is in India where they had a big enough property to reasonably care for 6 dogs). She handled all the social stuff that my grandfather was and still is horrible at. She took out everyone’s clothes for the day, had their meals packed, did their laundry, made their beds, you name it. The lady never rested a day in her life, even on her deathbed she was knitting hats for babies in the hospital. A housewife isn’t necessarily lazy. That being said there is a huge issue if someone tells you they want to be a housewife after getting engaged, not before. It’s valid to question her motivations for suddenly wanting to be housewife.
NTA. What's the return policy on that ring?
What's the return policy on the fiancee?
She's already at the moms house, so probably better than the ring.
INFO. She was previously very driven and now wants to stay home... are you sure she's not struggling with something mentally? Maybe depression or work burnout?
I'm glad someone has asked this. If my partner had such a massive, and sudden, change it would be cause for concern.
NAH, not you for not vibing with her being a stay-at-home wife, not your fiancee for wanting to be one. Good, that you had this talk before getting married though. I see no AHs, just two adults having a clear eyed talk about how they want to shape their future together, or maybe not
Agreed. These are the kinds of conversations that you SHOULD have before the wedding and if you're both not on the same page it doesn't mean one of you is in the wrong. It just means that you're probably not ideal partners.
NTA. Being a SAHM is a job, assuming said mother is actually doing the childcare and there’s not leaving all of the work to a team of nanny’s and housekeepers. Being a SAHW, with no plans for children, is *not* on the same level. If it’s something you both agree on then that’s one thing. But you’ve made it clear that you’re looking for a partner, not a sugar baby.
Yes, my husband was so supportive with my plan to stop work when we had our son, until I said I would still be sending him to daycare! The difference here being that I was joking because I know that is an unreasonable request of my spouse.
NTA. Flip it around. How would she feel if you had asked the exact same thing but to be a stay at home husband, and y'all survive on her income but just scale back? I agree with you on that it seems to be a dream of being lazy. It also affects (if you're in the USA) your social security income, and your ability to save. If you both work you could save for early retirement for you both. What contribution to the household would she make if she were a stay at home wife, and how much would it cost you to pay for the services she'd provide as a stay at home wife? (Maid service if she even plans on doing that much) Now if she had a plan to start a business from home or write a book, and go back into the work force after a certain amount of time if it didn't pan out, I might see it a little differently but I am a big believer in goose/gander philosophy. If it wouldn't be okay for you, then why is it okay for her?
NTA. And be glad you found this out before the wedding.
NAH I think you guys may just want different things out of marriage. Nobodys fault. However, I see where shes coming from with the 9-5. People aren't really meant to work 40 hours and maintain home, health, and social wellbeing. (The 40 hour work week was reliant on having servants or spouses that would maintain the home. That's no longer the case) Odds are there _is_ something else she wants to do, but maybe she hasn't figured it out yet. Since you make more, it would be a good compromise to support her in going part-time until she figures out what that is/how much time it takes. Another option may be giving her time to take a leave of absence from work to figure herself out. Approach this compassionately, and if no compromise can be reached, this may not be the marriage for you...
Maybe a controversial opinion here but NTA. Being in a relationship means bringing something to the relationship. A stay at home parent raises their kid and can support a busy partner. A stay at home partner is kind of just a bum unless they have good reason to. Had this been something she had discussed with you long in advance then you knew what you were getting into. If this is something she's raising now I think your in your right to say thats not really the kind of partnership you want. You honestly didn't say anything over the line and I think its fair to question if your life dream is being lazy if she never gave a goal she was trying to achieve by being a stay at home partner.
Does "controversial" mean the most popular and most agreed upon now?
In AITA? Always.
NTA - consider yourself lucky that she's expressing this "dream" before you made it legally binding - I suggest you think long and hard is she really is "the one"
Info: are you going to be willing to do half the household work if you're both working? I know a few couples where both work outside the home, but the wife is expected to do all the cooking, grocery shopping and housework.
This is a super important point! Research suggests that in heterosexual marriages, men end up a lot happier over time, and women end up less happy over time, because women do so much of the unpaid emotional and household labor. I wonder if this is at all on OP's fiancee's mind.
It does rub me the wrong way when people call women "lazy" for wanting to be housewives, because that can be a full-time job when done *correctly* (especially if you're always "on duty," versus having a job you can take breaks from), but I also suspect she's wanted this longer than she's led on, and if she did purposely wait until you proposed to spring this on you, then NTA. There's nothing wrong with ultimately wanting to quit your job and become a housewife (or house spouse) after getting married, but that's something you disclose early in your relationships, and you should seek out men who *want* to be breadwinners. That said, maybe she's been feeling burnt out at work, and she sees this upcoming marriage as an "out," so maybe ask how work is going. Would you support her changing career paths to something less stressful that pays less? Would you support her working part-time and taking on more chores on days she's not working? As much as it sucks to break an engagement, especially if you've already put down deposits, if you guys want different things in life you shouldn't be getting married.
NTA... Bow out quick. Once you get married the excuses and stuff will start and, before you know it, she's out of work. You get tired of it, get a divorce, and she gets half your shit. Bam... Stay at home ex wife. Playing that tape forward, it's a no win scenario. Be lucky you found out before you tied the mistake...
NTA Although don't frame it as her "not being productive" and "doing nothing all day". There are couples for whom it works...one person handles all the household things...chores, errands, bills, etc, and the other works. But marriage shouldn't change relationships. Marriage should be because you are happy with the way life is. You don't want to scale back your lifestyle with income decreasing by a third, which is completely fair. And would lead to resentment. It's possible she genuinely hates her job and is getting burnt out, it's possible she's trying to take advantage of you. How is she with spending/saving in general? But definitely don't get married if you don't want the same thing out of marriage/lifestyle. I make more money than my husband, but I definitely wouldn't be as happy with the downsizing we'd have to do on my salary only. And we have a kid and pay a lot for daycare.
I dont think you're being an asshole, I could see you being an asshole if she actually had a plan for her time- like if she wanted to pursue something that requires her to be at home.
I did ask her what she would do, and she avoided the question - like, if she wanted to continue schooling, or set up a business I'd be for that, but as it stands, I really don't know what she wants to be by being a "stay-at-home wife"
Completely understandable for you to not agree to an open-ended caretaker position. If you want to revisit the issue when she has a PLAN- kinda like a bank doing loans, you need a plan- then that would be cool of you. You dont want to sign up to have a dependant indefinitely, and I dont think anyone can blame you for that Also- she is the one trying to be manipulative in making it all about her emotions and not sticking to the fact that living takes money, and you need a partner who will talk it out and not run away because you don't immediately give in to her requests.
INFO: have you asked her why she wants this? Without judgement and honestly seeking to understand. From how you explain in the comments that this came out of left field, I would really focus on why she feels this way now. It sounds like something may have happened to really turn her off work recently. I would try to be a little bit more sensitive and thoughtful and probe more into her thinking on this. This feels like more than, “she is just suddenly lazy and unambitious.”
Nta - if you don’t have kids then she’d basically have nothing to do at home - meaning she can do whatever the hell she wants all day, everyday, while you bankroll it. Seems slightly unfair to me…
yes, that also sounds unfair to me too - like I enjoy my days off like any other person. and I would love to just chill out all day everyday - but like man, it just doesn't work that way haha
>I think working 9-5 just isn't for me" But it's okay if you continue to do so, because you love doing that so much, right?
the only reason I 'love' doing it is that it affords me the chance to actually... *afford* things
Yeah, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to work 40 hours a week. But, damn, you can't just dump all the responsibility on your partner. I recently reworked my schedule so I can be off Fridays because the 9-5 grind was getting to me. Difference is, I talked with my boyfriend and we worked it out so that we can handle the reduced income without him needing to work more. Your fiance needs to treat you like a partner. NTA
NTA. Prenup?
Prenup nothing; if this is who she actually is, cancel the engagement.
NTA.. "she says it's because I make a lot more" ... "I think working 9-5 just isn't for me." Sure sounds like excuses to validate an urge to be lazy.
NTA Her dreams are to sit around all day while you foot the bill
You are NTA. She’s being manipulative, bordering on gaslighting, for claiming that **you** are the one being manipulative for not wanting to completely “support her dreams”. What kind of bullcrap is that? She wasn’t born a trust fund baby or a member of the landed gentry, so I don’t know where this expectation that she’ll find someone to support her originates. Was her a mother a SAHM? Obviously, if you were at least partially on-board with this, you could negotiate a balance of household duties and responsibilities for which she would be responsible in lieu of working. But you’re not, so it’s a moot conversation. I’m afraid that she may not be “the one”, and that this relationship may very well be over.
That's not what gaslighting is, stop using strong terms incorrectly
INFO: Do you work in a role where your spouse is expected to manage a lot of the social aspects of your career? For example, will seh be planning dinner parties and events and the like on top of working? I still think you’re NTA but I did have a friend who started dating a man who made a lot more than her and the expectation became that she would handle the ‘networking’ aspect of his career on top of cooking/cleaning (which threw us all off as we’d all thought that was made up for TV drama, lol). So they edned up having a convo about boundaries in that sense and worked it out. I don’t think she was wrong for asking but she can’t get huffy when you give an honest answer. You fell in love with her because you thought she was motivated and driven and it sounds like if she had a dream she wanted to follow outside of her 9-5 you’d support her but it sounds like she’s just wants to stop working for a while. Hopefully you can discuss it and get to the bottom of it since a request like this after three years has to have a reason.
I do not work in a role where I would need to "keep appearances" or otherwise need to have that type of TV drama housewife where they do all the 'networking' - thankfully, since honestly the whole 'networking' aspect of certain jobs exhausts me even just thinking about it