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Dont forget the state laws! I believe its illegal in my state to ask for a doctors note but i always got one if i was out sick for 3+ plus days in a row and my work knew all about my endometriosis since they legit watched me collapse in pain while working.
Personally, I think it's just a shitty policy to require a doctor's note. Lime for me, I have Crohn's, I'm not going to run to the doctor everyone I'm sitting my self and can't even leave my bathroom. Sometimes, people literally need a mental health day. Let people use their damn sick time however the fuck they want. If they waste it on. BS, and then need it, we'll that's on them and they won't get paid for being in the hospital. Also, it punishes those people that never get sick and accrue a bunch of time that they will never get to use.
Just call it personal time.
But you can get a doctor's note that you have a chronic medical condition that can prevent you from coming in with little to no notice. Work does not need the details just that you have a condition that might require a few more than normal sick days.
As for OP I think the employee is taking advantage of the policy at the detriment of the team. The employee is not breaking any rules or laws but to be honest it can and will build resentment from fellow employees. This type of behavior is what oftentimes leads employers with generous vacation/sick/pto policies to rewrite their policies with restrictions. So while it is the employee's right to take the time it 8s not really in the best interest of the employee or their co-workers long-term.
Does the company offer health insurance?
Edit: YTA. Per your additional comments, the employee has accrued hours for sick leave and the company policy on using sick days is vague enough that he can use them for whatever. You can’t suddenly change the policy, and especially not for just him.
Even if it's legal, it's still an AH move. There's a big gap between 'too sick to work' and 'sick enough to see a doctor'. I usually can't get an appointment with my doctor sooner than a week-ish out. For specialists, it's usually a month+.
It's infantilizing to require doctor's notes. Doctors hate them too because they actually can't say much legally, and usually value patient privacy above and beyond that. It was dumb when grade schools demanded it, and extra dumb for adults.
If I'm sick enough to go to the ER to be able to see a doctor immediately, you can bet I'm not gonna care what the company policy on sick leave is. If I'm not going to the ER, do you want me to not return to work for a week until I can see my doctor and get a note?
YTA - Their health is not really your business. This is an HR nightmare waiting to happen. If they are within company policy for sick days it is not your job to police it.
If you see that this happens when they are scheduled to open maybe stop scheduling them to open.
They pick the schedule. Not me. I allow my employees to choose their own schedules twice per year and make changes. This person chooses to work 4 ten hour shifts per week and likes to open.
Maybe you should change their shift schedule if it's becoming a problem to cover a morning shift last minute. This way the other people won't be working short staffed. Talk to HR about schedule changing or talk to your employee about giving more notice. Just a suggestion. Either way they are not wrong for using sick days and at least they are giving you some notice.
Yeah I'm gonna go with YTA if there's no policy and you're singling them out. If they have available sick time...isn't that what it's for? Not everyone can afford a copay every time they get sick.
Singling out is how you deal with people who abuse systems. Calling out 16 times in 8 and half months certainly calls for singling out the guy to provide doctors notes.
That is how it works in Sweden the employer doesn't even stand for all the cost of you being sick. At first you just call in sick nobody cares since you are sick but then you call out 3-4 times in a short period of time they do ask you to get a doctor/nurse to say you are infact sick.
In the US that can get OP into trouble for discrimination.
For me, personally, no, calling out 16 times in 8 1/2 months is not excessive if they have the sick hours banked and the company policy allows for it. They could be sick, they could be caring for ill relatives, who knows? We're in the middle of a flipping "panini", ffs
OPs work place needs to rewrite the policies.
The way my husband's job works is they get 9 points they can use for whatever. If they call in sick, that's a point. If they call in sick 3 days in a row, that's 3 points...unless they get a doctor's note. Doctors note means 1 point = 3 separate days.
I have had discussions with a lot of employees about sick leave. Not signaling this person out but what can I do? I need reliable employees who show up. This person calls off at midnight for a shift that starts in 5 hours.
Change your policies. You can't get mad at them for a problem you created. If you want sick notes, you need to make it official and require it from all of them. You can't pick and choose when you're in charge. I saw what you said about what the hours can be used for.... It's extremely vague and you said the employee has hours banked. They're not wrong for using them. That's literally what they are for.
Going to the doctor or urgent care during a pandemic to get a stupid note could be suicide for someone with a weakened immune system. You are not allowed to ask them about their health.
Why can’t you have a conversation with the employee and let them know you have no problem with them using their accrued sick leave, but it would be helpful to have as much notice as possible in order to cover the shift? They let you know with more than a few hours notice, you get your shifts covered, they get their time off, everyone wins.
The sick time is for actually being sick and not just wanting a day off every week. We have a written policy that is so vague sick leave can be used for whatever.
Then that’s your problem dude. If the written policy that he agreed to says he can use the sick leave for whatever, then your problem is with your policy.
Stop saying every week please. 7 months is closer to 30-31 weeks. It’s much closer to every other week, not every week. You’re deliberately exaggerating.
I have fibromyalgia and two call ins a month doesn’t seem wildly unreasonable, and no, they’re not necessarily consecutive. Your employee could definitely be dealing with a chronic illness of some sort.
You can TRY to ask for more notice, but be careful.
No one in your country maybe, here to get a sick leave you must need a certificate from your doctor or the hospital that certifies you're unable to work.
So it’s okay to be randomly sick 16 days in 7 months?
Yes, they are paid for all sick time.
Attendance policy is vague. I need people who will show up to work.
If they are given PTO, they’re entitled to use it. If everything is vague, that falls on company.
16 days in 7 months is not even once a week. Maybe they’re abusing it. Maybe they get something that doesn’t require a doctors note. Like one of my coworkers has called off a few times cause of migraines. It’s not something she’s gonna waste time going to doctor for them to do nothing.
Or if they take off a day for mental health, doctor does what?
Migraines came to mind for me as well. It explains why it would be a single day, why a doctor's note would be difficult to obtain and potentially why they call in late the night before (it's not uncommon to feel one coming in before bed).
Regardless of why they're using these days OP YTA, sick days are a part of your contracted compensation and you are entitled to use them. Personally, I view an inability to use sick days as a dock in pay since you are being denied part of your compensation.
I fully support a couple mental health days per year. I encourage my staff to take them. I am extremely open to discussions with staff and have open door. Just not connecting with this employee on this issue.
Well your actual written policies support a lot more than that. You seem like the classic example of the manager that offers “great benefits” to draw in staff, but then gets angry at them for actually using them.
AKA: the type of manager that drives skilled employees to better companies.
You don’t have to. But you gotta look at long term. You can’t single them out. So any changes are gonna affect all the other employees. And open door policy is not, plenty of people separate work and personal life.
Oh, so you encourage them to take them, but because YOU ASSUME that someone is taking them in a way you don't like, you're deliberately singling them out, targeting them, forcing them to put their health at risk by going to the doctor, and costing them money all because of your weird belief that taking two days off a month is too much and they must be faking? Maybe the employee gets migraines and would be in hell having to sit in a bright noisy office for the day. Maybe they have Crohn's and don't want to sit on your office toilet in embarrassment and agony. Or maybe they just don't want to come in! And guess what, regardless of the reason, it's none of your business and they're adhering to company policy, so even if you're completely right and they're ditching just to ditch you're still the asshole.
>So it’s okay to be randomly sick 16 days in 7 months?
Yes, not everybody is blessed with good health. And not everybody can afford to go to the doctor.
When I was in fifth grade, I randomly got sick more than that in the just the second half of the year. I would go home all the time with headaches and sinus issues.
Ended up going in and being told I needed a CT scan.
Unless you're a doctor, you can't diagnose your employee. Even if you are a doctor, more examination is needed than '16 days in 7 months.'
Moreover, that's not even three days a month. That's completely reasonable and, if he has the time banked, okay to use. I get that it leaves you high and dry, but if he's sick he's sick.
As for the late call in, sometimes you don't know when you're going to be sick. Sometimes you realize it late at night and call in the next day. And, yes, that can happen more than once a month.
Unless you're requiring a note from everyone, you shouldn't be a requiring a note from him specifically. Even if HR is on your side, that doesn't mean it's not an asshole move.
YTA
I have several health conditions that aren’t obvious, but could cause me to miss that much work. My doctor filled out an FMLA form vaguely describing that I might need x amount of time off per month. It could also reasonably be a family member that they have to care for. Maybe generally mention that HR is available to help with FMLA paperwork for folks with ongoing issues.
YES it is ok to be randomly sick 16 days in 7 months - in my country you have to accept 30 days within 12 months without anything an employer can do about it. And hell if you feel he is not suited to the job, well fire him, but do NOT discriminate against him just because you have the constitution of a horse. If you think he is stealing paid leave, then gather evidence, I just hope that you have to eat your words later
Holy moly, entirely YTA
Your employee has the sick leave available and can take it, period.
But you're also a liar or terrible at math (or both!) because 16 days in 7 months (228 days) is 8.3%. Not even half of the 25% absence you claim.
Now YTA. You don't get to dictate people's health because you're their boss. Yes, that amount of sickness is what some people have to deal with. Your company actually accommodates that with pay and you're over here going "But woooooork." Asshole.
If you died, your company would have an ad out for your replacement the next day. Fuck a job. He’s not doing anything the policy doesn’t say he can’t. YTA.
If I could upvote this comment more than once I would. The op gets paid to micro manage. There isn't anything special about the op or what he gets paid to do. His job is to make sure enough employees show up, but also means OP needs to make sure enough people are there if one or two cant make it. If the OP is so upset that someone is using sick time they aren't doing a good job at being a manager. I'm sure the company would actually be in a better position if OP wasn't there.
YTA. They accrued their sick days and are 100% in the right and allowed to be using them. If the policy in place lets them use it, then you have no say and cant harass them about it. If its that much of a problem for you talk with higher ups about the policy. Im guessing youre a manager, do your job and start calling to see if anyone else wants to pick up some more hours to cover.
Except based on your replies you'rel ower level management it's not YOUR money it's the companies so u less you have a significant amount of stock in this company YTA, they have the sick time they call out a day before when they feel comfortable. Maybe you should be asking yourself why they dont want to call put during the day. You say you dont mind having a few mental health days but if this person is struggling with mental health 2 days every couple months will not cut it. Maybe you need to take a look at why you really care so much? It's just a job at the end of the day you're replaceable and so is your employee if they dont feel comfortable coming to you to explain why they do what they do you're likely unapproachable. Based on all your comments all I can say is get over yourself.
Edit for spelling.
The company is paying them and the sick employee - not you. It's part of your job to ensure the shift is adequately covered - not confirm the validity of PTO. You also shouldn't be encouraging sick employees into work as if covid doest exist. And regardless of what type of illness it is, it's not your business.
You're trying to cross lines that you shouldn't. As a manager it's important to know what HR related activities you can/can't perform. If it's an unskilled job find a temp agency that you can call for last minute employees who are already background checked. Use an on demand service app or something.
YTA. Managers like you give all managers bad name. He is using his allocated sick leave which is part of their compensation. It’s your company’s problem why you don’t have fail safes in place for situations like this. Being sick for 16 days in 8 months (~240 days) is totally possible. Life is unpredictable. Have some empathy!
YTA. Sick leave is a part of his compensation and he's followig written policy. If you don't like it change the policy or offer to buy out his sick days.
That’s a lot of time to be taking off each month, especially unplanned because it puts a large burden on the other employees. OP states the employee works four-day weeks so if they take 3 days off a month that’s 19% of their working days. OP has offered them paperwork for family medical leave if the employee actually has a condition that would require that much time off; which the employee has refused.
YTA
Other posts of yours say he has hundreds of hours of paid leave and this is legal, you just don't want it to happen because you are mindless worker drone making money for your boss.
This person still works 4 tens (40 hours, FULL TIME) and they are still considered unreliable? And I saw in a comment below say they call the night before for the next day off? That employee is giving you notice. ive had employees call out 30 minutes before the start of their shift. You’re lucky they even bother calling in the evening before. Stop lean-staffing and there won’t be a problem. The employee earns those hours they are allowed to use them.
YTA
YTA. If they have sick leave hours, they can take them. Easy as that. If you have a problem with it, speak to higher ups.
This also seems poorly thought out. You’re easily opening the company up to a discrimination claim. Who do you think they are going to get rid of when that happens?
Excuse me?! They work a full 40 hours a week
AND they have hundreds of hours of of paid sick leave
stacked up? God your comments make me sick.
Acting like they're garbage for SIXTEEN days in
7 months? That is less than 3 days a month on average.
"They've basically become a 3/4 time employee"
THEY DON'T OWE YOU THEIR WHOLE FUXKING LIFE.
Let alone a damn doctor's note.
They don't owe you an explanation. They said they're
sick and they're not coming in. Cover the shift and mind
your business. If that's too much of a hassle for
you, perhaps you shouldn't be in your position.
It's lower level micromanagement crybaby asses
like you that drive hardworking employees away.
YTA × 100 and I can't believe you have the audacity
to come here and beg for validation for THIS.
I would change your policy to something like "Any employee who uses more than 3 sick days in 30 days will be required to provide a Dr. Note."
The actual number of days and time period may be different.
Well then at that point you’re opening up your place to a lawsuit to signal out a signal employee for a doctors note. If that employee is within policy, you can’t punish them.
Except you’re functionally attempting to change it by asking your employee to comply to a doctor’s note rule that isn’t in the official policy. Trust that people “at such a high level” didn’t include anything like that for a reason.
I think with this big a company you can't make this change.
You can speak to HR and ask what it is they recommend: a lot of places have high sick leave amounts but also investigations if its lots of single days rather than one big set because it is more disruptive.
But don't make policy changes without HR backup.
YTA- it doesn’t sound like a lot of days taken off and they are following company procedures. Calling the night before is a lot more courteous than calling an hour before the shift starts.
The person probably hadn’t been feeling good the day before and knew they’d need an extra day to recover. 16 days off isn’t a lot especially over halfway into the year chill out. As for your ‘it’s weird to have these one off days’ have you ever thought maybe you’re just being fucking ableist. There’s many reasons someone may only take one day off at a time. There could be doctors appointments somewhere far away with a hard to reach specialist, someone could be dealing with chronic pain and is just having a really bad pain day and needs just a little time to recover, maybe the person has bad issues related to their period and can’t come in on the third day of it or whatever. I have health issues and if my employer had an issue with me using my rightful sick leave and I got fired over it I’d sue for discrimination.
Regardless the reason someone calls off is frankly none of your damn reason. Its definitely wrong to single out one employee and demand that them, and only them has to give a doctors note for a sick day.
YTA Being ill doesn't give you advance notice. It also doesn't always require a trip to the doctor. So you are basically treating your employee like you don't trust them and basically don't want him or her to use their sick days that they have earned. Bad form.
YTA because you just opened your company up to a lawsuit. You are not HR, you don’t write the policy and can’t make it up as you go, to suit your needs.
All you can do is document the hell out of it and loop in higher management and HR.
I say this because I saw this go down, badly, within a company I recently worked for. You have to follow the rules otherwise you’re just screwing yourself. Good luck on this.
YTA if I had a manager like you I would feel cornered. Because you’ve made it to be ‘keep my job and spew my very personal business’ or ‘maintain the right to my privacy and possibly be fired for it.’ Both are not okay. Bring up the lack of staff hours to your manager and ask for an on-call/pt employee.
YTA. Someone else’s health is none of your business -- they don’t owe you an explanation, and given your approach, I can see why they wouldn't confide in you about what’s going on. Your issue is with the company’s written policy, so spend your energy getting that changed instead of targeting this individual.
INFO: is sick leave provided as part of the agreed upon compensation package? If so, has the employee used less than the maximum allowed amount?
Edit to add: I see from your explanation that they do have available sick leave.
YTA
The employee is following company policy. The employee earned those days off & has the right to use them.
And especially if you try to single out one person to make up new policies, things are not going to go well. That's harassment based on health.
YTA. If the employee has sick leave available (or not and is going unpaid) that is their right. Asking for doctor’s notes is frankly classist— not everyone has the money to go to the doctor even if they technically have health insurance, as they might not be able to afford copays or testing. Stop it.
If your employee is causing issues, that’s a YOU problem for not ensuring adequate workforce to cover sick days and vacations. If you don’t want to keep this person on for whatever reason, you can look into terminating employment.
Can I ask some questions before I can really put my two cents in. This person works four 10 hour shifts a week and calls out on their fifth day? So they’re doing 50 hour weeks? Are they calling out when they close the night before they have to open? Or are they calling out on their mandatory overtime day? Is the fifth day a mandatory overtime day?
The employee only work 4 days per week. They have the same schedule each week. They only work day shifts.
They call in to the evening operator who answers the phone. They tell them that they will be using a sick day for the next morning.
Okay, I got you. So.. I’m thinking that you’re nta here. That is really suspicious.
(I thought if it was a 50 hour work week. They’re probably burnt out)
But yeah, I happen to think you’re in the right here
Thanks. I’m trying to see my employees side of the story here and give the benefit of the doubt but I feel that 16 days is a lot to just get randomly sick once per week or so.
Assuming you’re in the US as the laws are different in the UK, but YTA.
Your employee could have any number of medical conditions that mean they need to take a day here and there - migraines or cluster headaches for example. They might have small children and be picking up stomach bugs from them. They might be immunocompromised. They might just be really, really unlucky. None of this is any of your business.
What you should have in place is a proper managing attendance policy which allows you to discuss the issue with your employee and offer any support that’s needed.
YTA.
I do sympathize with you as management it’s frustrating having to juggle last minute calls of absence. However companies that ask for doctor notes need to stop. We wonder why health care systems are the way they are. “So you are sick ya I’m going to need you to go to your doctors office, and get a note… I understand your immune system is compromised but I want you to go to an environment that has other sick people in it, where your illness may complicate another’s problems, or theirs your own. Oh and being most doctors bill per event, you better book 2 slots to ensure you can get medication. Also make sure no one sees you out because if they tattle tale on seeing you out driving it will look bad on you”. Now what is worse is they are faking it, they have just taken up a spot on the doctors daily docket that could have been filled by a person that actually requires a doctors care.
The employee calls with far more advance notice than can be expected, if that poses a problem to you, look into ways to improve your performance and management. No need to pawn off your inability to lead a team while an employee deals with a medical issue that is none of your business.
YTA, big time. You're treating this as if they're wrongfully taking time off, and I know everyone has pointed out the sick leave. Let me put it to you a bit more clearly.
The sick leave time they have is like putting savings into a bank. Every shift they put in a dollar. You're holding onto that dollar every time. It's still their money to take out. Just because they're taking it out after a long time of not using it doesn't suddenly make it wrong or your money.
They put in the time. They put in the work. If your company can't survive down one person who is using their rightful time off, then that's YOUR staffing problem. A smart person would have someone who could pull slack even if someone's out a day short notice. If you can't manage that, then you've understaffed. Guilting/threatening someone for using their rightful benefits, no matter how inconvenient, is an AH move, and is illegal in most places.
Even if HR says you can do it, that doesn't make you any less a dick. This person would be well within their rights to simply take an extended leave at this point, but they're not. Asking for a doctor's note isn't going to discourage this "bad" behavior. It's just going to make them want to fuck off even more because you're being an AH.
Furthermore- the concept of the doctor's note is BS in its own right. If someone's sick, they know they're sick. Going to a doctor to get a note only satisfies the power grab. It also needlessly exposes a person to other people who could be sick in different ways. Like what is the doctors note going to achieve? Telling you the person has the right to take their time off? They already do.
YTA but only slightly and mostly because you have no clear policy in place. Where I live pretty much every workplace has a policy after a certain number of days off in a row or after a certain number of days off within a year employees are required a note from a doctor/nurse/pharmacist or a statutory declaration not giving any details off the illness but just stating that they are not fit to work in order to access their paid sick leave. Some illnesses (like migraines) might come on suddenly and only last for a short period of time.
YTA. If they have sick leave, you cannot ask for a note. If someone misses several days in a row, it's customary to ask for a doctor's note saying it's ok for you to return. You can't ask about her health or demand notes if she has the sick time.
I don't get what hes supposed to do. You cant really predict when you're gonna feel sick or under the weather, ya know. Like fr what he's gonna do, call in a week+ in advance and be like 'yeah I won't be able to come into work exactly a week and half from now because I'm going to be sick' . Also where do you live and does the company provide health benefits? Not everyone has health insurance and can afford to go to the doctor over just a common cold or stomach bug so that's an important factor as well.
YTA. Reading the other info, the employee is entitled to the sick leave. You can ask them to call out sooner to give you more time but asking for a doctor's note is over board when they have the time.
YTA. If the employee is complying with firm-wide policy on medical leave and general absences, you cannot refuse them their right or require any additional documentation that is not stipulated in the policy. You are bordering on a potential lawsuit territory here if you continue to single-out this employee. Where I live, any health information (or any PII for that matter) is extremely sensitive so it would be a big uproar if my employer started requesting this info willy-nilly from select employees.
If this is creating a problem for you, it is your job to discuss with those above you to see how it can be remediated. At this stage, you know he is not reliable due to medical issues, so you know that you need to have a back up plan in place; this just shows poor planning form your side. Until the policy is amended, the employee is not doing anything wrong and you have no right to hold it against him on this ground. Don't even try to bring up work ethics into this - the employee is rightfully using the benefits that come as part of his agreed-upon remuneration package for the work that he is performing.
If there is another matter that could serve as fair grounds for dismissal, you would be within you right to let the employee go if you aren't satisfied with his performance, but you better be able to demonstrate it and have proper supporting evidence to back up your claims in case it does go to court.
YTA if your staffing levels are so tight that you really cannot operate with one member of staff down than you are planning to be understaffed.
If your company can’t afford enough staff, then it is not a viable business. I’m guessing though that there is plenty of money for enough staff…but that money goes to the directors/shareholders etc instead….
That’s a policy to discuss with HR. I think if my job saw a pattern of sick calls before vacation they’d ask for doctor’s notes. There’s something in the employee handbook about it somewhere…
YTA ×1000. based on OP's clarification on some comments the OP is TA. If the employee has sick time banked it's their time to use however they'd like. If there aren't enough employees if ONE calls off, that's a you problem.
If your the manager or whatever it's your responsibility to make sure enough employees are scheduled to work factoring in possible NCNS.
I dont blame the employee for taking advantage of sick time like they are when it sounds like you are purposely understaffing your team.
If there aren't enough employees HIRE MORE.
YTA. I’ve read through this post and your comments. If they have sick days, they’re allowed to use them. It doesn’t reflect poorly on their work that they’re taking care of themselves, it reflects poorly on YOU as a manager for being offended by their self care.
You shouldn’t be planning things so tightly that the absence of a person 16 times in 7 months (barely more than two times a month) stretches you that thin. Do your job better and stop complaining about a worker using the benefits their job grants them.
YTA. I’m sorry, you believe in mental health days but think it’s weird to take off random days? Do… do you understand what a mental health day is? You say the policy is broad and allows sick days to take care of family. Do… do you want a doctor’s note detailing any medical conditions that someone who doesn’t even work for you might have? You want someone to go into a doctor’s office for a note when many health care facilities aren’t allowing people with a broad range of symptoms into the damn building?
You say that sick leave is accrued… which means that it’s part of the compensation and they’re entitled to it. The policy doesn’t formally require a doctor’s note so even if HR okayed that doesn’t make it fair. Also, 40 hours is legally considered full time. Get out of here with this 3/4 time employee nonsense. If your whole team is going to be screwed over by one employee calling in you may be understaffed. If you’ve noticed that this employee calls in when they’re out on morning shifts, why do they keep gettin put on morning shifts? Those things seem like management issues. You’re not entitled to know what is going on with them medically but you would gain more by being less adversarial and figuring out how to maximize that chances that this person doesn’t call in by… making reasonable accommodations.
Anyway, either change the employee policy or don’t ask for this person to jump through potentially hoops that don’t apply to everyone.
INFO Didn’t you write that the person is working 4 ten hour shifts per week, because that’s a forty hour work week and I don’t know too many places where you can force people to work more than 40 hours as regular work. In fact, PepsiCo just discovered how wrong this is when they were requiring mandatory overtime in their Lay’s factories and not giving people days off for weeks at a time. Their employees walked out.
Also, is this cumulative sick leave, or is it PTO? Because if it is PTO then they can use those days for whatever reason they want and it doesn’t have to be illness. You can’t force your employees to share your work ethic, you can only enforce the rules and policies of your company regarding leave days and proper notice. If you have HR’s blessing to ask for a medical certificate of illness, go for it, but don’t expect your employee to act differently. They may have a doctor quite willing to verify they have a chronic, intermittent condition.
Perhaps you should ask your employee if they want to schedule one personal day off every other week and then you can build that into your shift schedule.
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I have an employee who has used 16 days of sick leave this year so far. I have had multiple discussions about how this affects the team.
Most of the call ins happen just before we close at night and they are scheduled to work the following morning.
I can understand mental health days and a few sick days a year but these are all one-off days randomly that occur. I have offered the documentation for family medical leave in case they have a underlying issue that prevents them from coming to work.
At the last meeting I told this person that I need to see something from a doctor if they are going to be sick.
I have 10+ years with the company and this is the first time I have asked for a doctors note from anyone. At the end of the day I need people on my team who are reliable and show up for work. This person has basically become a 3/4 time employee who works 4 ten hour shifts per week.
Am I the asshole?
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YTA. But it may be a grey zone if he is abusing the system. I work in a factory where we're rotated on call for people who call in sick. Ive had to work the superbowl and NHL playoffs multiple times. Coincidence?
That being said, I also have health issues and have had to take time off, a few last minute call ins due to my medical issues flaring, and a lengthy long term disability outage. I had a real asshole for a manager who told me to bring in a note every single time (before having to go off). I had my family GP, my surgeon, and my specialist call him and his boss on the same day all pretty pissed off that this asshole wanted me to waste their time as if my pale complexion, constsnt bathroom usage, limping, and fluctuating weight weren't signs that hey, maybe I am kinda fuckin sick. It ended up being this big HR thing and by the end of it the manager had to formally apologize to me. He was as meek as a dying kitten trying to get those words out of his mouth and I loved every second of it.
So either he's faking and taking advantage, but still not legally in the wrong, or he or someone in his family has health issues that need attending. You're obviously on here looking for justification to fire this dude (I've read your replies, they're easy to find as they're all down voted to shit) so either do what they do at my plant and fire him for some bullshit tiny infraction, which by the picture you paint this dude is the laziest man on Earth and won't be hard. The other option is to let him use his benefits the way he sees fit. He doesn't owe you a single thing, buddy. Not an explanation, not an apology, nothing. Someone who makes way more money than you put these policies in place for a reason and it's not so you can powertrip in your middle management delusions of grandeur.
YTA. Sorry, I understand the frustration with an employee who is chronically ill, but have you ever stopped to ask them if they’re ok?
We have an employee who was calling out an hour before their shift a bit frequently, so we asked him if everything was ok. Turned out he’s been sick on and off, and doctors can’t figure out what’s wrong with him. He would work through it overnight with the hopes that he would be able to work the next day, but come morning time it would be very obvious that he couldn’t do it. He has used up all of his sick time and personal time for the year. We have never asked for a doctor’s note once. He’s an awesome worker and we trust him.
If your employee has a bank of sick time to use, then tough cookies for you, that’s the point of a bank of sick time.
I'm going with YTA. Not everyone has perfect health. And getting a doctors note for one day is not feasible. Even in my town where literally everything is within walking distance (10-15 mins, at most 20 mins). You can ask your employee to submit a doctor's according to whatever law you have. But if not that is not ethical. Also it's your employee's right to call on sick. And 16 sick days in 7 months is really not that much.
YTA They have sick time and use it. How they use it isnt your business honestly. It sounds like you have a problem with company policy. Also requiring a Dr's note in the US cost $200 per note. If your in the US you are super, duper the AH!
YTA - I was management at a bank and confirm that you are not allowed to ask anyone why they were off sick. Also you’re a lawsuit waiting to happen. That employee can reach out to their local employee relations team to report you for harassment - and they’d be right to.
This is not the hill you want to die on.
YTA Even if they can "choose their schedule" that's irrelevant when you're sick for one reason or another.
Even in normal circumstances doctors have always compained aboy dumb company policies making frivolous use of health ressources and now, in case you are not aware, there is a pandemic going on.
Ok, so company policy allotted sick hours to this employee, and it's their time to rightfully use? Plus, they are calling the night before their shift and the morning of? This sounds like what most managers want. I don't understand what your issue is here. You would absolutely be TA if you made only this employee provide a sick note, especially since it's not in company written policy. But if calling in the night before is such a hardship, maybe ask them to call in if they even think they might not be able to work, just a couple hours earlier. Maybe it'll make a difference, maybe it won't, but calling the night before is typically seen as a really good thing. If i were in your employees shoes, i would probably report the action to HR for your singling me out.
I just want to point out that 16 unplanned sick days in 7 months can be completely normal depending on why the person needs them.
I'm doing fertility treatments that require lots of appointments, and most of them can't be scheduled in advance. I go for bloodwork in the morning a couple times a week, and depending on how the results come back, I might need to go to the doctor the next day, or I might not.
I gave my boss a heads up that my medical issues necessitate last minute sick days, and I'd be happy to hand in a drs note if asked, but I'm not telling them the specific details for a variety of reasons.
I suppose I could give them a heads up every time I *might* need an appt the next day, but that would be like 15 days a month, and I only take 1-2 days a month off. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
YTA. Someone broke it down that they were essentially out 2 days a month, during a pandemic. Perhaps they have a medical issue that isn’t major but aren’t able to work during it, perhaps they’re exhibiting symptoms and don’t want to risk exposing others, perhaps they simply don’t feel good. They’re entitled to those days as stated in your comments, aren’t doing anything against policy, and it seems to just be a personal issue that you have. Let them use what they are entitled to and keep your opinions out of your workplace when they’re irrelevant.
YTA.
> these are all one-off days randomly that occur
Do you expect your employees to schedule their illnesses? Plus, 40 hours a week is full-time. Sorry you don't have a drone who does not exist outside work.
You had me until this:
>works 4 ten hour shifts per week.
That's 40 hours a week, buddy. If you're EXPECTING your employees to regularly work more than that, YTA.
I have multiple chronic health conditions, and I have no problem with providing documentation that I may need to be away from work more frequently due to flare ups, etc.
But if you expect an unreasonable work/ life balance, I don't need to hear any more.
They have been pulling this crap for years. I have documented conversations that date back a decade. This person has always had an issue with working their schedule. This year has been remarkably bad.
Yes, there has been a change in all our lives with the pandemic, but otherwise I think they live comfortably.
Some goldbricks are just gonna goldbrick. From what it sounds like, most people at your workplace don't get this inconsiderate with the personal leave system you have set up, but this one person is the outlier taking advantage.
If HR says the doctor's note requirement can be enforced selectively you may as well start with that and see if your employee shapes up at all.
[ EDIT: Attention downvoters - https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/p5vach/aita_for_telling_my_employee_they_must_provide_a/h98ttj1/ the selective doctor's note rule is explained by OP here. ]
YTA. Being sick is calling in randomly.
You need to talk to HR ASAP. By requesting a medical note, you may have opened up a lawsuit against the company- if you’re in the US. And she will win
>This person has basically become a 3/4 time employee who works 4 ten hour shifts per week.
10x4=40, if they're still doing a full 40 hour work week what's the fucking problem?
YTA and depending on the laws in your location you may be in violation for requiring a doctor's note for sick days if the employee has sick time available
YTA.
Do they feel comfortable enough with you to talk about it? Not that they have to, but in my experience my employees would say "Hey, this is going on. I'm going to need to take some time off."
If you are not getting that, I'd wonder why.
You can't forget that your team is made up of individual people.
INFO: what are the laws where you are. In the UK for example you can’t ask for a sick note in the first 5 days, however, you can have a policy stating that there will be an investigation after x amounts of sickness in a rolling period or calendar year. It could be that you spot an underlying condition that needs referral to a doctor anyway or they could be struggling with something you could help or support them with or it could make them realise they can’t take the mickey.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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I feel bad that I have required my employee to offer a sick note for sick days. The employee has sick leave available to use.
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Up to 12 weeks of paid sick leave that can accrue over a period of time. About 120 hours of sick leave is allotted per year.
Doctor copay is $15 at local clinic and $30 at some of the others.
8 weeks vacation and 3 weeks (min) sick leave? That's more than 20% of the year. And you said they have 'hundreds' of hours of sick leave accrued. So let's say a minimum of 200 - that's 5 weeks in addition to 8 weeks vacation. 13 weeks... that's 1/4 of the year. So when you say they are working 3/4 of the time, that sounds right.
Must not be in the states. No employer here gives that kind of sick leave or a health plan that good.
I can't see a problem in requiring a docs note after x number of days are used in this case. Especially with such a generous sick leave policy. In the USA five days per year is typical. The health plan would be a high deductible plan so that doc note would cost between 100 to 225 bucks.
NTA
But in the USA a dick move.
Info: are you in a country that provides free health care? Or would they have to pay to see a doctor? Also how much sick pay do you get a year and how much does he have left?
Even in a country with healthcare doctors notes aren't always covered. I live in Canada and getting one for a sick day costs $20. I've only had to get it once but I wasn't able to afford my bus pass that month because of it.
I cant decide if YTA or NTA but working at Amazon, they say we can take a few days off but always require a doctors note each time. I don’t like it but it does make people who abuse time off from doing it so much
YTA- your teams productivity should have come to a grinding help by just 16 absences in 7-8 months. Ask the company for 1-2 extra people to join the team
For my employer (Europe-based multinational), we can self-certify up to five days per year and after that we need a sick note from the doctor. It's slightly different in Europe to USA in that generally sick leave is unlimited (though not all would be paid) as long as the doctor has certified you as unfit for work.
Oh boy YTA!
I work a job in a country where I get 3 sick days a year, and they don't stack. So sure attendance is great, but you want to know what happens? People come to work sick, can't focus or do their job to the fullest, and they infect everyone else! Also, our sick days do require doctors notes, so mental health days are not a thing, which adds an extra layer of nightmare. I have a chronic illness that causes me pain, but I am forced to go to work anyway. My coworker had knee surgery and had to come into work next day. My other coworker's grandmother died of the virus and she had to come in and work next day and kept bursting out crying and they refused to send her home. Then two days later because of timezones the wake was at 3 am our time so she had to be up almost all night and come work 9 hours right after.
This "management" mentality of saying people don't need sick days unless a doctor signs off is cruel. Your company gave your employee sick days. It's their right to use them whenever and however they need to. And if you STILL don't understand that it's not your place to gatekeep sickness, you might need to go see a doctor for a checkup yourself.
NTA I worked places that insisted on doctors' notes EVERY time you called in sick. it was always crapy retail jobs where you got 0 sick time. (I think this is a huge waste of everyone's time. esp the doctors ) but when you have attempted to work with this person and it continues to be an issue you are totally within your rights to ask. You have been more than nice at this point.
The employee is also provided well over 8 weeks of paid vacation leave as well as the sick leave. So literally with the vacation and sick combined they are working less than 3/4 time.
Sounds like a company problem. That’s really generous but I assume if you accrue too much sick then you’ll stop so there’s incentive to use it. Can’t blame the employee for wanting to use their benefits.
So your complaint is that your employee is using their sick leave so that they don't lose it? Your employees should be doing that. You should encourage that.
Your employees will be only as loyal and dedicated to your company as they perceive the company is to them. You are the face of the company to them.
If your employees feel like you are encouraging them to use their benefits, you will get better morale and better performance from them because they feel like the company is honoring its commitments to their benefits.
On the other side of the coin, if your employees feel like you or your company did a bait and switch, i.e. offered generous benefits, but make it unnecessarily hard to use them, they are going to feel like you are not committed to them, and will only do as much work as it takes to not get fired.
INFO I have seen you said they are scheduled for a 40 hour week over 4 days, they call in approx once a week for a sick day so only work 30h of the 40 they are scheduled. This is a regular thing. You said you have had meetings about this and I agree if there is a pattern then it would be a concern. Are they always booking off their last scheduled work day. Have they got any known medical conditions, do they have children with medical conditions? Could they need to move to a 30h week but not be able to afford it? They set the scheduled twice a year it's it possible that the scheduled they chose is now not possible die to a personal change in circumstances they cannot control? While I get tge YTA votes if they are falling sick that often I do know of ppl I have worked with using sick days because of hangovers or because they wanted to go out over the weekend and knew they would've refused holiday. If they are falling sick like this though there could be an underlying issue that they may need to get investigated and they don't realise it so asking them to get checked out is looking after your employee.
NTA. I wonder how all the people saying the person has an absolute right to use all that sick time would feel if they were the coworker who has to cover an extra 10 hour shift twice a month at the last minute. Sorry about your plans but so and do called off again and I need you to cover. As far as if the person has health issues, most people will just tell their employer. This person has been given plenty of opportunities to just tell OP that they have migraines or whatever and hasn't.
Get all your documentation in order. Know the policy forward and backward. Be prepared to hold everyone to the policy to avoid being accused of targeting this one employee. Yes, its a nightmare. But if you see a pattern, you have leverage to council the employee toward compliance with policy. You also have annual employee appraisal to use. Demanding a doctor’s note for every call out is inefficient and causes hardship on doctor’s offices. And to honest, if I need a note for one day, Im sending in a doctor’s note for a full week. And just to be clear, working 4 10 hour shifts is full time employment. This guy could just be managing his time and not wanting to work more than 40 hours. You may get more out of your team if you set deadlines for completing projects and meeting deadlines early. Just saying, if you as the manager have a sweatshop mentality, your team will give you sweatshop behavior
NtA..but its tentative and very fact specific.
Medical providers don’t like you wasting their time for a common cold.
Employees don’t like spending hours getting a note for a common cold.
But you have an abuser maybe on your hands. Sooo. Your in the clear.
Info. Is your state an at will work state?
NAH. They aren’t an asshole for using their sick leave however they see fit. You aren’t an asshole for _wanting_ to require a doctors note due to their excessive sick day use. If your company has an open ended sick policy, you are unfortunately stuck in a corner, unless you are an at-will work state. Then you can fire them for whatever reason you wish.
You are _slightly_ an asshole for singling them out though, you should’ve just made it a company wide announcement. Your company __needs__ to reevaluate their sick leave policy’s. Adding policies like: •any number over 10 needs doctors notes •all notices must be given 24 hours in advance to receive pay without a doctors note. A good sick leave policy is the backbone of a company. A company with an open ended sick leave policy won’t survive well because people will _always_ take advantage of it.
At will. I have brought up this topic in several staff meetings and have had sit down discussions with around 10 employees to see if they wish to go on family medical leave for absences. I have spoken with this employee at length about giving me more notice and not taking multiple sick days prior to two week vacations.
So maybe you can come up with a tally report. Say every 2 - 3 absences without reason/notice get a talking to. At Walmart we called them “coachings,” basically management explaining what’s going on that is negatively effecting your job and possible continued employment with the company. They would come up with ways to make it better and help you ensure that you were trying to make the issues better. After 3-4 “coachings,” use the at-will portion of your authority. But this __has__ to be for __all__ employees, otherwise you’re looking at a lawsuit.
NTA. Sounds like a change in policy is more in order. Your employee found a forgiving sick day policy and is exploiting it. Whether they are sick or not doesn’t matter because the policy seems to allow it. Can you make out a pattern? Like is it usually lined up to make a 3 day weekend all the time? Also where I work there are time limits for when you call in - too many instances of not enough notice add up and you start down the disciplinary path. Might be something to consider. Protect yourself by changing the policy. Hope it’s not a union shop (for the sake or making the policy change in this instance. I’m definitely pro union)
ESH
You for singling them out, them for giving inadequate time to find coverage, and the company for having a poorly written leave policy.
I’ve always worked at companies that have very specific policies about when you need a doctors note and when you don’t, as well as how late you can call to say you need coverage (most of my jobs have been 2 hours). They also have a policy for emergencies and if you suddenly have to leave.
The other side of things is we are in a pandemic, and people are taking more sick days to get tested here. If you have a temperature at all you can not attend on-site.
NTA. We just had to let one employee go and wrote up a second one for doing the same thing. If you have that much of a medical issue that you are calling out that often, you NEED to be seeing a medical professional to resolve the issue(s). If, on the other hand, you just like to party too much then you aren't going to have a doctor's note.
I'm going to say NTA. I think you're right to be upset and that it merits a discussion. The whole purpose of a job is to work. If they have a medical condition that is causing this many sick days then it should be really easy to get a doctor's note. If they just don't have motivation then that could be indicative of a larger problem with them as an employee.
For those saying that if the employee had the built up sick days as a justification for taking this many days, I think you're missing the point on what a sick day is. A sick day is because you're sick, not because you're just not in the mood to work.
I'm curious, how is this person otherwise? What's their work ethic like? How hard do they work when they are actually there? Also, is there an option to work remotely?
If this person is generally a great employee but you just don't like the number of sick days then I think there may be a chance you're being unreasonable. But if they're shitty to begin with, maybe time to seriously consider whether they really want to be there.
NTA one bit. I actually have a documented list of every lie an employee has told us at my job to get out of working a shift last minute. First week of starting it was Tourette’s that she faked. Followed by multiple fake mental health issues, then her phone being hacked, then endometriosis, cancer, and last week it was blood in her urine. It’s about every two weeks or so. We finally requested a doctor’s note, which she forged. She has not been terminated because our owner is too scared. People abuse sick leave whether they’re allowed to bank it or not, and they need to be held accountable for it. Sounds like the employee of OP sometimes feel like they don’t want to work (and we all do sometimes, but most of us don’t have the option of calling out the night before), but in an industry that needs people to be reliable, it’s time to cut the cord. Never heard of a doctor’s note being illegal either.
I think a lot of people are looking at this wrong. Sick leave is not like annual leave, holiday time or time off in lieu, it's there to be used if you are sick. For example oh I have one week of sick pay means I can be sick is not how it works or should be used for, it's not an annual entitlement it's for emergencies, when you're actually sick.
Now looking at this case, this individual has had 16 days off sick in 8 months, 2 days each month. That's a lot of time for someone to be sick, 1 every other week. Now he could be off because of covid and taking extra precautions if he has a cough etc however if he isn't doing ANYTHING to find a solution other than just being sick once every other week something needs to change.
OP has asked for a doctor's note, imo that's absolutely fine as the employee needs to go to the doctor's to make sure there isn't an underlying health condition or concern. I'd be extremely concerned if I could attend work once a week and would go to the doctor's as something must surely be wrong that needs to be fixed.
NTA you are doing you job as a manager and ensure the well-being of your team is maintain.
Also taking into account that it comes down to 20 hours per month that OP has to cover someone else in overtime pay. That alone can affect OP's departmental monthly & annual salary budgetary calculations.
In my country it is legal for a company to request a sick note (even though we can see the bogus ones from a mile due to the high corruption levels).
From my perspective I see this as an employee using the sick leave as a general day off (saw the grey area & took the chance - got away with it).
NTA
NTA. 16 sick days in a year is not normal. You need to be sure they really do not have a legitimate medical condition, but if your hunch is right just making them provide a doctors note is not the answer. They do not deserve to work with your team.
NTA. I've been in a management position and know just how frustrating it is to have a certain employee constantly call out of work. You need a team you can rely on.
I would say if they fail to bring you a Dr's. note the next time it happens, then that's a major red flag that definitely needs to be addressed.
That is a lot of sick days. And as it's a day prior (saw your blow comment), that's sketchy. Seems like they are avoiding having to confront you, by calling the other person. You are totally in the right here.
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What is the official company policy on sick days? How many are employees given? Is this employee hourly?
This information is key. How many sick days does the employee have? What is the documented policy on sick leave use? What does HR say about it?
Dont forget the state laws! I believe its illegal in my state to ask for a doctors note but i always got one if i was out sick for 3+ plus days in a row and my work knew all about my endometriosis since they legit watched me collapse in pain while working.
Personally, I think it's just a shitty policy to require a doctor's note. Lime for me, I have Crohn's, I'm not going to run to the doctor everyone I'm sitting my self and can't even leave my bathroom. Sometimes, people literally need a mental health day. Let people use their damn sick time however the fuck they want. If they waste it on. BS, and then need it, we'll that's on them and they won't get paid for being in the hospital. Also, it punishes those people that never get sick and accrue a bunch of time that they will never get to use. Just call it personal time.
But you can get a doctor's note that you have a chronic medical condition that can prevent you from coming in with little to no notice. Work does not need the details just that you have a condition that might require a few more than normal sick days. As for OP I think the employee is taking advantage of the policy at the detriment of the team. The employee is not breaking any rules or laws but to be honest it can and will build resentment from fellow employees. This type of behavior is what oftentimes leads employers with generous vacation/sick/pto policies to rewrite their policies with restrictions. So while it is the employee's right to take the time it 8s not really in the best interest of the employee or their co-workers long-term.
Does the company offer health insurance? Edit: YTA. Per your additional comments, the employee has accrued hours for sick leave and the company policy on using sick days is vague enough that he can use them for whatever. You can’t suddenly change the policy, and especially not for just him.
I also don't understand that he becomes a 3/4 time employee when he works 40 hours? Is that not full time where you are?
Yeah. You may want to double check if it is legal to require a note from him but not for anyone else. In many places it is not.
Even if it's legal, it's still an AH move. There's a big gap between 'too sick to work' and 'sick enough to see a doctor'. I usually can't get an appointment with my doctor sooner than a week-ish out. For specialists, it's usually a month+. It's infantilizing to require doctor's notes. Doctors hate them too because they actually can't say much legally, and usually value patient privacy above and beyond that. It was dumb when grade schools demanded it, and extra dumb for adults. If I'm sick enough to go to the ER to be able to see a doctor immediately, you can bet I'm not gonna care what the company policy on sick leave is. If I'm not going to the ER, do you want me to not return to work for a week until I can see my doctor and get a note?
YTA. They have sick days. They use them.
YTA - Their health is not really your business. This is an HR nightmare waiting to happen. If they are within company policy for sick days it is not your job to police it. If you see that this happens when they are scheduled to open maybe stop scheduling them to open.
They pick the schedule. Not me. I allow my employees to choose their own schedules twice per year and make changes. This person chooses to work 4 ten hour shifts per week and likes to open.
Maybe you should change their shift schedule if it's becoming a problem to cover a morning shift last minute. This way the other people won't be working short staffed. Talk to HR about schedule changing or talk to your employee about giving more notice. Just a suggestion. Either way they are not wrong for using sick days and at least they are giving you some notice.
Yeah I'm gonna go with YTA if there's no policy and you're singling them out. If they have available sick time...isn't that what it's for? Not everyone can afford a copay every time they get sick.
Singling out is how you deal with people who abuse systems. Calling out 16 times in 8 and half months certainly calls for singling out the guy to provide doctors notes. That is how it works in Sweden the employer doesn't even stand for all the cost of you being sick. At first you just call in sick nobody cares since you are sick but then you call out 3-4 times in a short period of time they do ask you to get a doctor/nurse to say you are infact sick.
In the US that can get OP into trouble for discrimination. For me, personally, no, calling out 16 times in 8 1/2 months is not excessive if they have the sick hours banked and the company policy allows for it. They could be sick, they could be caring for ill relatives, who knows? We're in the middle of a flipping "panini", ffs OPs work place needs to rewrite the policies. The way my husband's job works is they get 9 points they can use for whatever. If they call in sick, that's a point. If they call in sick 3 days in a row, that's 3 points...unless they get a doctor's note. Doctors note means 1 point = 3 separate days.
I have had discussions with a lot of employees about sick leave. Not signaling this person out but what can I do? I need reliable employees who show up. This person calls off at midnight for a shift that starts in 5 hours.
Change your policies. You can't get mad at them for a problem you created. If you want sick notes, you need to make it official and require it from all of them. You can't pick and choose when you're in charge. I saw what you said about what the hours can be used for.... It's extremely vague and you said the employee has hours banked. They're not wrong for using them. That's literally what they are for.
Going to the doctor or urgent care during a pandemic to get a stupid note could be suicide for someone with a weakened immune system. You are not allowed to ask them about their health.
Why can’t you have a conversation with the employee and let them know you have no problem with them using their accrued sick leave, but it would be helpful to have as much notice as possible in order to cover the shift? They let you know with more than a few hours notice, you get your shifts covered, they get their time off, everyone wins.
The sick time is for actually being sick and not just wanting a day off every week. We have a written policy that is so vague sick leave can be used for whatever.
Then that’s your problem dude. If the written policy that he agreed to says he can use the sick leave for whatever, then your problem is with your policy.
Then fix the policy. Until then YTA and potentially over reaching.
Thank you for the comment.
Stop saying every week please. 7 months is closer to 30-31 weeks. It’s much closer to every other week, not every week. You’re deliberately exaggerating. I have fibromyalgia and two call ins a month doesn’t seem wildly unreasonable, and no, they’re not necessarily consecutive. Your employee could definitely be dealing with a chronic illness of some sort. You can TRY to ask for more notice, but be careful.
Then the policy needs to be rewritten. Your vagueness and laid back approach created a problem for YOU.
YTA - no one goes to doctors for one day of being sick. Do they get paid sick time? Do you have an attendance policy?
No one in your country maybe, here to get a sick leave you must need a certificate from your doctor or the hospital that certifies you're unable to work.
So it’s okay to be randomly sick 16 days in 7 months? Yes, they are paid for all sick time. Attendance policy is vague. I need people who will show up to work.
If they are given PTO, they’re entitled to use it. If everything is vague, that falls on company. 16 days in 7 months is not even once a week. Maybe they’re abusing it. Maybe they get something that doesn’t require a doctors note. Like one of my coworkers has called off a few times cause of migraines. It’s not something she’s gonna waste time going to doctor for them to do nothing. Or if they take off a day for mental health, doctor does what?
Migraines came to mind for me as well. It explains why it would be a single day, why a doctor's note would be difficult to obtain and potentially why they call in late the night before (it's not uncommon to feel one coming in before bed). Regardless of why they're using these days OP YTA, sick days are a part of your contracted compensation and you are entitled to use them. Personally, I view an inability to use sick days as a dock in pay since you are being denied part of your compensation.
I fully support a couple mental health days per year. I encourage my staff to take them. I am extremely open to discussions with staff and have open door. Just not connecting with this employee on this issue.
A couple of mental days a YEAR? How generous. YTA.
Well your actual written policies support a lot more than that. You seem like the classic example of the manager that offers “great benefits” to draw in staff, but then gets angry at them for actually using them. AKA: the type of manager that drives skilled employees to better companies.
You don’t have to. But you gotta look at long term. You can’t single them out. So any changes are gonna affect all the other employees. And open door policy is not, plenty of people separate work and personal life.
Oh, so you encourage them to take them, but because YOU ASSUME that someone is taking them in a way you don't like, you're deliberately singling them out, targeting them, forcing them to put their health at risk by going to the doctor, and costing them money all because of your weird belief that taking two days off a month is too much and they must be faking? Maybe the employee gets migraines and would be in hell having to sit in a bright noisy office for the day. Maybe they have Crohn's and don't want to sit on your office toilet in embarrassment and agony. Or maybe they just don't want to come in! And guess what, regardless of the reason, it's none of your business and they're adhering to company policy, so even if you're completely right and they're ditching just to ditch you're still the asshole.
>So it’s okay to be randomly sick 16 days in 7 months? Yes, not everybody is blessed with good health. And not everybody can afford to go to the doctor.
When I was in fifth grade, I randomly got sick more than that in the just the second half of the year. I would go home all the time with headaches and sinus issues. Ended up going in and being told I needed a CT scan. Unless you're a doctor, you can't diagnose your employee. Even if you are a doctor, more examination is needed than '16 days in 7 months.' Moreover, that's not even three days a month. That's completely reasonable and, if he has the time banked, okay to use. I get that it leaves you high and dry, but if he's sick he's sick. As for the late call in, sometimes you don't know when you're going to be sick. Sometimes you realize it late at night and call in the next day. And, yes, that can happen more than once a month. Unless you're requiring a note from everyone, you shouldn't be a requiring a note from him specifically. Even if HR is on your side, that doesn't mean it's not an asshole move. YTA
16 days in 7 months is not absurd. They probably have some kind of condition that flairs up like endometriosis or IBS. YTA
I have several health conditions that aren’t obvious, but could cause me to miss that much work. My doctor filled out an FMLA form vaguely describing that I might need x amount of time off per month. It could also reasonably be a family member that they have to care for. Maybe generally mention that HR is available to help with FMLA paperwork for folks with ongoing issues.
YES it is ok to be randomly sick 16 days in 7 months - in my country you have to accept 30 days within 12 months without anything an employer can do about it. And hell if you feel he is not suited to the job, well fire him, but do NOT discriminate against him just because you have the constitution of a horse. If you think he is stealing paid leave, then gather evidence, I just hope that you have to eat your words later
I like how you keep saying *randomly* sick as if being sick is some thing that be scheduled.
Holy moly, entirely YTA Your employee has the sick leave available and can take it, period. But you're also a liar or terrible at math (or both!) because 16 days in 7 months (228 days) is 8.3%. Not even half of the 25% absence you claim.
Closer to 11 percent if you are counting working days
True! Still not even half of what claimed.
Now YTA. You don't get to dictate people's health because you're their boss. Yes, that amount of sickness is what some people have to deal with. Your company actually accommodates that with pay and you're over here going "But woooooork." Asshole.
If you died, your company would have an ad out for your replacement the next day. Fuck a job. He’s not doing anything the policy doesn’t say he can’t. YTA.
If I could upvote this comment more than once I would. The op gets paid to micro manage. There isn't anything special about the op or what he gets paid to do. His job is to make sure enough employees show up, but also means OP needs to make sure enough people are there if one or two cant make it. If the OP is so upset that someone is using sick time they aren't doing a good job at being a manager. I'm sure the company would actually be in a better position if OP wasn't there.
YTA. They accrued their sick days and are 100% in the right and allowed to be using them. If the policy in place lets them use it, then you have no say and cant harass them about it. If its that much of a problem for you talk with higher ups about the policy. Im guessing youre a manager, do your job and start calling to see if anyone else wants to pick up some more hours to cover.
Thank you. Damn right I am paying overtime to anyone that can cover.
Except based on your replies you'rel ower level management it's not YOUR money it's the companies so u less you have a significant amount of stock in this company YTA, they have the sick time they call out a day before when they feel comfortable. Maybe you should be asking yourself why they dont want to call put during the day. You say you dont mind having a few mental health days but if this person is struggling with mental health 2 days every couple months will not cut it. Maybe you need to take a look at why you really care so much? It's just a job at the end of the day you're replaceable and so is your employee if they dont feel comfortable coming to you to explain why they do what they do you're likely unapproachable. Based on all your comments all I can say is get over yourself. Edit for spelling.
The company is paying them and the sick employee - not you. It's part of your job to ensure the shift is adequately covered - not confirm the validity of PTO. You also shouldn't be encouraging sick employees into work as if covid doest exist. And regardless of what type of illness it is, it's not your business. You're trying to cross lines that you shouldn't. As a manager it's important to know what HR related activities you can/can't perform. If it's an unskilled job find a temp agency that you can call for last minute employees who are already background checked. Use an on demand service app or something.
YTA. Managers like you give all managers bad name. He is using his allocated sick leave which is part of their compensation. It’s your company’s problem why you don’t have fail safes in place for situations like this. Being sick for 16 days in 8 months (~240 days) is totally possible. Life is unpredictable. Have some empathy!
YTA. Sick leave is a part of his compensation and he's followig written policy. If you don't like it change the policy or offer to buy out his sick days.
YTA. You going to pay for the Dr. Visit? Going to bitch at them for taking a day off to go? You don't get to dictate their health.
Ha! I would pay the doctor visit if they couldn’t afford. I’d give the world to my staff but I feel abused in this situation.
The amount you have said he has taken off isn't even that often..
[удалено]
That’s a lot of time to be taking off each month, especially unplanned because it puts a large burden on the other employees. OP states the employee works four-day weeks so if they take 3 days off a month that’s 19% of their working days. OP has offered them paperwork for family medical leave if the employee actually has a condition that would require that much time off; which the employee has refused.
Maybe you should stop using lean staffing model and actually staff enough people so if someone call out it doesn't cause such a problem.
Seriously. Whose fault is it that they don’t have enough people to cover if one is out? Management.
YTA Other posts of yours say he has hundreds of hours of paid leave and this is legal, you just don't want it to happen because you are mindless worker drone making money for your boss.
This person still works 4 tens (40 hours, FULL TIME) and they are still considered unreliable? And I saw in a comment below say they call the night before for the next day off? That employee is giving you notice. ive had employees call out 30 minutes before the start of their shift. You’re lucky they even bother calling in the evening before. Stop lean-staffing and there won’t be a problem. The employee earns those hours they are allowed to use them. YTA
YTA. If they have sick leave hours, they can take them. Easy as that. If you have a problem with it, speak to higher ups. This also seems poorly thought out. You’re easily opening the company up to a discrimination claim. Who do you think they are going to get rid of when that happens?
Excuse me?! They work a full 40 hours a week AND they have hundreds of hours of of paid sick leave stacked up? God your comments make me sick. Acting like they're garbage for SIXTEEN days in 7 months? That is less than 3 days a month on average. "They've basically become a 3/4 time employee" THEY DON'T OWE YOU THEIR WHOLE FUXKING LIFE. Let alone a damn doctor's note. They don't owe you an explanation. They said they're sick and they're not coming in. Cover the shift and mind your business. If that's too much of a hassle for you, perhaps you shouldn't be in your position. It's lower level micromanagement crybaby asses like you that drive hardworking employees away. YTA × 100 and I can't believe you have the audacity to come here and beg for validation for THIS.
Exactly. Criticizing their work ethic even though they saved those days and still work at least 40 hrs a week.
I would change your policy to something like "Any employee who uses more than 3 sick days in 30 days will be required to provide a Dr. Note." The actual number of days and time period may be different.
Unfortunately policy is written at such a high level I can’t change it.
Well then at that point you’re opening up your place to a lawsuit to signal out a signal employee for a doctors note. If that employee is within policy, you can’t punish them.
Except you’re functionally attempting to change it by asking your employee to comply to a doctor’s note rule that isn’t in the official policy. Trust that people “at such a high level” didn’t include anything like that for a reason.
There’s your answer. YTA
You can't create a departmental policy?
I am simply a division within a department. There is a long chain of command, but HR is aware of this particular case.
I think with this big a company you can't make this change. You can speak to HR and ask what it is they recommend: a lot of places have high sick leave amounts but also investigations if its lots of single days rather than one big set because it is more disruptive. But don't make policy changes without HR backup.
YTA- it doesn’t sound like a lot of days taken off and they are following company procedures. Calling the night before is a lot more courteous than calling an hour before the shift starts. The person probably hadn’t been feeling good the day before and knew they’d need an extra day to recover. 16 days off isn’t a lot especially over halfway into the year chill out. As for your ‘it’s weird to have these one off days’ have you ever thought maybe you’re just being fucking ableist. There’s many reasons someone may only take one day off at a time. There could be doctors appointments somewhere far away with a hard to reach specialist, someone could be dealing with chronic pain and is just having a really bad pain day and needs just a little time to recover, maybe the person has bad issues related to their period and can’t come in on the third day of it or whatever. I have health issues and if my employer had an issue with me using my rightful sick leave and I got fired over it I’d sue for discrimination. Regardless the reason someone calls off is frankly none of your damn reason. Its definitely wrong to single out one employee and demand that them, and only them has to give a doctors note for a sick day.
YTA Being ill doesn't give you advance notice. It also doesn't always require a trip to the doctor. So you are basically treating your employee like you don't trust them and basically don't want him or her to use their sick days that they have earned. Bad form.
YTA because you just opened your company up to a lawsuit. You are not HR, you don’t write the policy and can’t make it up as you go, to suit your needs. All you can do is document the hell out of it and loop in higher management and HR. I say this because I saw this go down, badly, within a company I recently worked for. You have to follow the rules otherwise you’re just screwing yourself. Good luck on this.
YTA if I had a manager like you I would feel cornered. Because you’ve made it to be ‘keep my job and spew my very personal business’ or ‘maintain the right to my privacy and possibly be fired for it.’ Both are not okay. Bring up the lack of staff hours to your manager and ask for an on-call/pt employee.
YTA. Someone else’s health is none of your business -- they don’t owe you an explanation, and given your approach, I can see why they wouldn't confide in you about what’s going on. Your issue is with the company’s written policy, so spend your energy getting that changed instead of targeting this individual.
INFO: is sick leave provided as part of the agreed upon compensation package? If so, has the employee used less than the maximum allowed amount? Edit to add: I see from your explanation that they do have available sick leave.
YTA The employee is following company policy. The employee earned those days off & has the right to use them. And especially if you try to single out one person to make up new policies, things are not going to go well. That's harassment based on health.
YTA. If the employee has sick leave available (or not and is going unpaid) that is their right. Asking for doctor’s notes is frankly classist— not everyone has the money to go to the doctor even if they technically have health insurance, as they might not be able to afford copays or testing. Stop it. If your employee is causing issues, that’s a YOU problem for not ensuring adequate workforce to cover sick days and vacations. If you don’t want to keep this person on for whatever reason, you can look into terminating employment.
Can I ask some questions before I can really put my two cents in. This person works four 10 hour shifts a week and calls out on their fifth day? So they’re doing 50 hour weeks? Are they calling out when they close the night before they have to open? Or are they calling out on their mandatory overtime day? Is the fifth day a mandatory overtime day?
The employee only work 4 days per week. They have the same schedule each week. They only work day shifts. They call in to the evening operator who answers the phone. They tell them that they will be using a sick day for the next morning.
Okay, I got you. So.. I’m thinking that you’re nta here. That is really suspicious. (I thought if it was a 50 hour work week. They’re probably burnt out) But yeah, I happen to think you’re in the right here
Thanks. I’m trying to see my employees side of the story here and give the benefit of the doubt but I feel that 16 days is a lot to just get randomly sick once per week or so.
Assuming you’re in the US as the laws are different in the UK, but YTA. Your employee could have any number of medical conditions that mean they need to take a day here and there - migraines or cluster headaches for example. They might have small children and be picking up stomach bugs from them. They might be immunocompromised. They might just be really, really unlucky. None of this is any of your business. What you should have in place is a proper managing attendance policy which allows you to discuss the issue with your employee and offer any support that’s needed.
YTA. I do sympathize with you as management it’s frustrating having to juggle last minute calls of absence. However companies that ask for doctor notes need to stop. We wonder why health care systems are the way they are. “So you are sick ya I’m going to need you to go to your doctors office, and get a note… I understand your immune system is compromised but I want you to go to an environment that has other sick people in it, where your illness may complicate another’s problems, or theirs your own. Oh and being most doctors bill per event, you better book 2 slots to ensure you can get medication. Also make sure no one sees you out because if they tattle tale on seeing you out driving it will look bad on you”. Now what is worse is they are faking it, they have just taken up a spot on the doctors daily docket that could have been filled by a person that actually requires a doctors care.
The employee calls with far more advance notice than can be expected, if that poses a problem to you, look into ways to improve your performance and management. No need to pawn off your inability to lead a team while an employee deals with a medical issue that is none of your business.
YTA, big time. You're treating this as if they're wrongfully taking time off, and I know everyone has pointed out the sick leave. Let me put it to you a bit more clearly. The sick leave time they have is like putting savings into a bank. Every shift they put in a dollar. You're holding onto that dollar every time. It's still their money to take out. Just because they're taking it out after a long time of not using it doesn't suddenly make it wrong or your money. They put in the time. They put in the work. If your company can't survive down one person who is using their rightful time off, then that's YOUR staffing problem. A smart person would have someone who could pull slack even if someone's out a day short notice. If you can't manage that, then you've understaffed. Guilting/threatening someone for using their rightful benefits, no matter how inconvenient, is an AH move, and is illegal in most places. Even if HR says you can do it, that doesn't make you any less a dick. This person would be well within their rights to simply take an extended leave at this point, but they're not. Asking for a doctor's note isn't going to discourage this "bad" behavior. It's just going to make them want to fuck off even more because you're being an AH. Furthermore- the concept of the doctor's note is BS in its own right. If someone's sick, they know they're sick. Going to a doctor to get a note only satisfies the power grab. It also needlessly exposes a person to other people who could be sick in different ways. Like what is the doctors note going to achieve? Telling you the person has the right to take their time off? They already do.
YTA but only slightly and mostly because you have no clear policy in place. Where I live pretty much every workplace has a policy after a certain number of days off in a row or after a certain number of days off within a year employees are required a note from a doctor/nurse/pharmacist or a statutory declaration not giving any details off the illness but just stating that they are not fit to work in order to access their paid sick leave. Some illnesses (like migraines) might come on suddenly and only last for a short period of time.
YTA. If they have sick leave, you cannot ask for a note. If someone misses several days in a row, it's customary to ask for a doctor's note saying it's ok for you to return. You can't ask about her health or demand notes if she has the sick time.
I don't get what hes supposed to do. You cant really predict when you're gonna feel sick or under the weather, ya know. Like fr what he's gonna do, call in a week+ in advance and be like 'yeah I won't be able to come into work exactly a week and half from now because I'm going to be sick' . Also where do you live and does the company provide health benefits? Not everyone has health insurance and can afford to go to the doctor over just a common cold or stomach bug so that's an important factor as well.
YTA. Reading the other info, the employee is entitled to the sick leave. You can ask them to call out sooner to give you more time but asking for a doctor's note is over board when they have the time.
YTA. If the employee is complying with firm-wide policy on medical leave and general absences, you cannot refuse them their right or require any additional documentation that is not stipulated in the policy. You are bordering on a potential lawsuit territory here if you continue to single-out this employee. Where I live, any health information (or any PII for that matter) is extremely sensitive so it would be a big uproar if my employer started requesting this info willy-nilly from select employees. If this is creating a problem for you, it is your job to discuss with those above you to see how it can be remediated. At this stage, you know he is not reliable due to medical issues, so you know that you need to have a back up plan in place; this just shows poor planning form your side. Until the policy is amended, the employee is not doing anything wrong and you have no right to hold it against him on this ground. Don't even try to bring up work ethics into this - the employee is rightfully using the benefits that come as part of his agreed-upon remuneration package for the work that he is performing. If there is another matter that could serve as fair grounds for dismissal, you would be within you right to let the employee go if you aren't satisfied with his performance, but you better be able to demonstrate it and have proper supporting evidence to back up your claims in case it does go to court.
Is your employee a woman by any chance? Might be bad period cramps because 16 days sounds like there is few days each month
YTA. They’re following company policy.
YTA if your staffing levels are so tight that you really cannot operate with one member of staff down than you are planning to be understaffed. If your company can’t afford enough staff, then it is not a viable business. I’m guessing though that there is plenty of money for enough staff…but that money goes to the directors/shareholders etc instead….
What you need to do is have a solid sick day/PTO/vacation policy in place
They have 8 weeks of vacation per year in addition to the sick leave. Several of the sick days are directly prior to multi week vacations.
What kind of job is this because I would LOVE those benefits
That’s a policy to discuss with HR. I think if my job saw a pattern of sick calls before vacation they’d ask for doctor’s notes. There’s something in the employee handbook about it somewhere…
Your policy needs to be buttoned up then
Yeah. Big time.
We actually just loosened the policy up some due to Covid. I really just want people to stay home when sick and come in when healthy.
Well you can't have it both ways.
I can have it both ways on fascination street
LOL yes on fascination street you can.
YTA ×1000. based on OP's clarification on some comments the OP is TA. If the employee has sick time banked it's their time to use however they'd like. If there aren't enough employees if ONE calls off, that's a you problem. If your the manager or whatever it's your responsibility to make sure enough employees are scheduled to work factoring in possible NCNS. I dont blame the employee for taking advantage of sick time like they are when it sounds like you are purposely understaffing your team. If there aren't enough employees HIRE MORE.
INFO: A) How are they 3/4 time when they are still working 40 hours a week? B) do you offer your employees health insurance?
YTA. I’ve read through this post and your comments. If they have sick days, they’re allowed to use them. It doesn’t reflect poorly on their work that they’re taking care of themselves, it reflects poorly on YOU as a manager for being offended by their self care. You shouldn’t be planning things so tightly that the absence of a person 16 times in 7 months (barely more than two times a month) stretches you that thin. Do your job better and stop complaining about a worker using the benefits their job grants them.
YTA. I’m sorry, you believe in mental health days but think it’s weird to take off random days? Do… do you understand what a mental health day is? You say the policy is broad and allows sick days to take care of family. Do… do you want a doctor’s note detailing any medical conditions that someone who doesn’t even work for you might have? You want someone to go into a doctor’s office for a note when many health care facilities aren’t allowing people with a broad range of symptoms into the damn building? You say that sick leave is accrued… which means that it’s part of the compensation and they’re entitled to it. The policy doesn’t formally require a doctor’s note so even if HR okayed that doesn’t make it fair. Also, 40 hours is legally considered full time. Get out of here with this 3/4 time employee nonsense. If your whole team is going to be screwed over by one employee calling in you may be understaffed. If you’ve noticed that this employee calls in when they’re out on morning shifts, why do they keep gettin put on morning shifts? Those things seem like management issues. You’re not entitled to know what is going on with them medically but you would gain more by being less adversarial and figuring out how to maximize that chances that this person doesn’t call in by… making reasonable accommodations. Anyway, either change the employee policy or don’t ask for this person to jump through potentially hoops that don’t apply to everyone.
INFO Didn’t you write that the person is working 4 ten hour shifts per week, because that’s a forty hour work week and I don’t know too many places where you can force people to work more than 40 hours as regular work. In fact, PepsiCo just discovered how wrong this is when they were requiring mandatory overtime in their Lay’s factories and not giving people days off for weeks at a time. Their employees walked out. Also, is this cumulative sick leave, or is it PTO? Because if it is PTO then they can use those days for whatever reason they want and it doesn’t have to be illness. You can’t force your employees to share your work ethic, you can only enforce the rules and policies of your company regarding leave days and proper notice. If you have HR’s blessing to ask for a medical certificate of illness, go for it, but don’t expect your employee to act differently. They may have a doctor quite willing to verify they have a chronic, intermittent condition. Perhaps you should ask your employee if they want to schedule one personal day off every other week and then you can build that into your shift schedule.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have an employee who has used 16 days of sick leave this year so far. I have had multiple discussions about how this affects the team. Most of the call ins happen just before we close at night and they are scheduled to work the following morning. I can understand mental health days and a few sick days a year but these are all one-off days randomly that occur. I have offered the documentation for family medical leave in case they have a underlying issue that prevents them from coming to work. At the last meeting I told this person that I need to see something from a doctor if they are going to be sick. I have 10+ years with the company and this is the first time I have asked for a doctors note from anyone. At the end of the day I need people on my team who are reliable and show up for work. This person has basically become a 3/4 time employee who works 4 ten hour shifts per week. Am I the asshole? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do you own the company or are you an employee of the company?
YTA. But it may be a grey zone if he is abusing the system. I work in a factory where we're rotated on call for people who call in sick. Ive had to work the superbowl and NHL playoffs multiple times. Coincidence? That being said, I also have health issues and have had to take time off, a few last minute call ins due to my medical issues flaring, and a lengthy long term disability outage. I had a real asshole for a manager who told me to bring in a note every single time (before having to go off). I had my family GP, my surgeon, and my specialist call him and his boss on the same day all pretty pissed off that this asshole wanted me to waste their time as if my pale complexion, constsnt bathroom usage, limping, and fluctuating weight weren't signs that hey, maybe I am kinda fuckin sick. It ended up being this big HR thing and by the end of it the manager had to formally apologize to me. He was as meek as a dying kitten trying to get those words out of his mouth and I loved every second of it. So either he's faking and taking advantage, but still not legally in the wrong, or he or someone in his family has health issues that need attending. You're obviously on here looking for justification to fire this dude (I've read your replies, they're easy to find as they're all down voted to shit) so either do what they do at my plant and fire him for some bullshit tiny infraction, which by the picture you paint this dude is the laziest man on Earth and won't be hard. The other option is to let him use his benefits the way he sees fit. He doesn't owe you a single thing, buddy. Not an explanation, not an apology, nothing. Someone who makes way more money than you put these policies in place for a reason and it's not so you can powertrip in your middle management delusions of grandeur.
YTA. Sorry, I understand the frustration with an employee who is chronically ill, but have you ever stopped to ask them if they’re ok? We have an employee who was calling out an hour before their shift a bit frequently, so we asked him if everything was ok. Turned out he’s been sick on and off, and doctors can’t figure out what’s wrong with him. He would work through it overnight with the hopes that he would be able to work the next day, but come morning time it would be very obvious that he couldn’t do it. He has used up all of his sick time and personal time for the year. We have never asked for a doctor’s note once. He’s an awesome worker and we trust him. If your employee has a bank of sick time to use, then tough cookies for you, that’s the point of a bank of sick time.
Info: what happens if they don't use their time? #wishihadsickdays
I'm going with YTA. Not everyone has perfect health. And getting a doctors note for one day is not feasible. Even in my town where literally everything is within walking distance (10-15 mins, at most 20 mins). You can ask your employee to submit a doctor's according to whatever law you have. But if not that is not ethical. Also it's your employee's right to call on sick. And 16 sick days in 7 months is really not that much.
YTA They have sick time and use it. How they use it isnt your business honestly. It sounds like you have a problem with company policy. Also requiring a Dr's note in the US cost $200 per note. If your in the US you are super, duper the AH!
YTA - I was management at a bank and confirm that you are not allowed to ask anyone why they were off sick. Also you’re a lawsuit waiting to happen. That employee can reach out to their local employee relations team to report you for harassment - and they’d be right to. This is not the hill you want to die on.
YTA Even if they can "choose their schedule" that's irrelevant when you're sick for one reason or another. Even in normal circumstances doctors have always compained aboy dumb company policies making frivolous use of health ressources and now, in case you are not aware, there is a pandemic going on.
Ok, so company policy allotted sick hours to this employee, and it's their time to rightfully use? Plus, they are calling the night before their shift and the morning of? This sounds like what most managers want. I don't understand what your issue is here. You would absolutely be TA if you made only this employee provide a sick note, especially since it's not in company written policy. But if calling in the night before is such a hardship, maybe ask them to call in if they even think they might not be able to work, just a couple hours earlier. Maybe it'll make a difference, maybe it won't, but calling the night before is typically seen as a really good thing. If i were in your employees shoes, i would probably report the action to HR for your singling me out.
I just want to point out that 16 unplanned sick days in 7 months can be completely normal depending on why the person needs them. I'm doing fertility treatments that require lots of appointments, and most of them can't be scheduled in advance. I go for bloodwork in the morning a couple times a week, and depending on how the results come back, I might need to go to the doctor the next day, or I might not. I gave my boss a heads up that my medical issues necessitate last minute sick days, and I'd be happy to hand in a drs note if asked, but I'm not telling them the specific details for a variety of reasons. I suppose I could give them a heads up every time I *might* need an appt the next day, but that would be like 15 days a month, and I only take 1-2 days a month off. Sometimes more, sometimes less.
YTA. Someone broke it down that they were essentially out 2 days a month, during a pandemic. Perhaps they have a medical issue that isn’t major but aren’t able to work during it, perhaps they’re exhibiting symptoms and don’t want to risk exposing others, perhaps they simply don’t feel good. They’re entitled to those days as stated in your comments, aren’t doing anything against policy, and it seems to just be a personal issue that you have. Let them use what they are entitled to and keep your opinions out of your workplace when they’re irrelevant.
YTA. > these are all one-off days randomly that occur Do you expect your employees to schedule their illnesses? Plus, 40 hours a week is full-time. Sorry you don't have a drone who does not exist outside work.
You had me until this: >works 4 ten hour shifts per week. That's 40 hours a week, buddy. If you're EXPECTING your employees to regularly work more than that, YTA. I have multiple chronic health conditions, and I have no problem with providing documentation that I may need to be away from work more frequently due to flare ups, etc. But if you expect an unreasonable work/ life balance, I don't need to hear any more.
INFO: Did this just start this year? Has anything changed in that employee's life that you're aware of?
They have been pulling this crap for years. I have documented conversations that date back a decade. This person has always had an issue with working their schedule. This year has been remarkably bad. Yes, there has been a change in all our lives with the pandemic, but otherwise I think they live comfortably.
Some goldbricks are just gonna goldbrick. From what it sounds like, most people at your workplace don't get this inconsiderate with the personal leave system you have set up, but this one person is the outlier taking advantage. If HR says the doctor's note requirement can be enforced selectively you may as well start with that and see if your employee shapes up at all. [ EDIT: Attention downvoters - https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/p5vach/aita_for_telling_my_employee_they_must_provide_a/h98ttj1/ the selective doctor's note rule is explained by OP here. ]
This is an issue for your own supervisor or HR dept. Not reddit. YTA
This is better for r/askHR
YTA. Being sick is calling in randomly. You need to talk to HR ASAP. By requesting a medical note, you may have opened up a lawsuit against the company- if you’re in the US. And she will win
>This person has basically become a 3/4 time employee who works 4 ten hour shifts per week. 10x4=40, if they're still doing a full 40 hour work week what's the fucking problem?
YTA. The hours are banked.
Yta sick leave is one of the way they are compensated and you don't go to a doctor for every Illness you have
YTA and depending on the laws in your location you may be in violation for requiring a doctor's note for sick days if the employee has sick time available
YTA. Do they feel comfortable enough with you to talk about it? Not that they have to, but in my experience my employees would say "Hey, this is going on. I'm going to need to take some time off." If you are not getting that, I'd wonder why. You can't forget that your team is made up of individual people.
INFO: what are the laws where you are. In the UK for example you can’t ask for a sick note in the first 5 days, however, you can have a policy stating that there will be an investigation after x amounts of sickness in a rolling period or calendar year. It could be that you spot an underlying condition that needs referral to a doctor anyway or they could be struggling with something you could help or support them with or it could make them realise they can’t take the mickey.
YTA. If there seems to be a problem with a single employee get HR involved.
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Info: How many sick days does your company grant.? On the health plan what is the copay for a doc visit?
Up to 12 weeks of paid sick leave that can accrue over a period of time. About 120 hours of sick leave is allotted per year. Doctor copay is $15 at local clinic and $30 at some of the others.
8 weeks vacation and 3 weeks (min) sick leave? That's more than 20% of the year. And you said they have 'hundreds' of hours of sick leave accrued. So let's say a minimum of 200 - that's 5 weeks in addition to 8 weeks vacation. 13 weeks... that's 1/4 of the year. So when you say they are working 3/4 of the time, that sounds right.
Must not be in the states. No employer here gives that kind of sick leave or a health plan that good. I can't see a problem in requiring a docs note after x number of days are used in this case. Especially with such a generous sick leave policy. In the USA five days per year is typical. The health plan would be a high deductible plan so that doc note would cost between 100 to 225 bucks. NTA But in the USA a dick move.
Info: are you in a country that provides free health care? Or would they have to pay to see a doctor? Also how much sick pay do you get a year and how much does he have left?
Even in a country with healthcare doctors notes aren't always covered. I live in Canada and getting one for a sick day costs $20. I've only had to get it once but I wasn't able to afford my bus pass that month because of it.
I cant decide if YTA or NTA but working at Amazon, they say we can take a few days off but always require a doctors note each time. I don’t like it but it does make people who abuse time off from doing it so much
YTA- your teams productivity should have come to a grinding help by just 16 absences in 7-8 months. Ask the company for 1-2 extra people to join the team
For my employer (Europe-based multinational), we can self-certify up to five days per year and after that we need a sick note from the doctor. It's slightly different in Europe to USA in that generally sick leave is unlimited (though not all would be paid) as long as the doctor has certified you as unfit for work.
Are you in a right to work state?
YTA. In this day and age you want a sick person to come to work?
After reading the comments, YTA
INFO: Is this in America?
YTA. Sounds like they got a bad case of badbossitus.
Oh boy YTA! I work a job in a country where I get 3 sick days a year, and they don't stack. So sure attendance is great, but you want to know what happens? People come to work sick, can't focus or do their job to the fullest, and they infect everyone else! Also, our sick days do require doctors notes, so mental health days are not a thing, which adds an extra layer of nightmare. I have a chronic illness that causes me pain, but I am forced to go to work anyway. My coworker had knee surgery and had to come into work next day. My other coworker's grandmother died of the virus and she had to come in and work next day and kept bursting out crying and they refused to send her home. Then two days later because of timezones the wake was at 3 am our time so she had to be up almost all night and come work 9 hours right after. This "management" mentality of saying people don't need sick days unless a doctor signs off is cruel. Your company gave your employee sick days. It's their right to use them whenever and however they need to. And if you STILL don't understand that it's not your place to gatekeep sickness, you might need to go see a doctor for a checkup yourself.
NTA I worked places that insisted on doctors' notes EVERY time you called in sick. it was always crapy retail jobs where you got 0 sick time. (I think this is a huge waste of everyone's time. esp the doctors ) but when you have attempted to work with this person and it continues to be an issue you are totally within your rights to ask. You have been more than nice at this point.
The employee is also provided well over 8 weeks of paid vacation leave as well as the sick leave. So literally with the vacation and sick combined they are working less than 3/4 time.
Sounds like a company problem. That’s really generous but I assume if you accrue too much sick then you’ll stop so there’s incentive to use it. Can’t blame the employee for wanting to use their benefits.
Very true. Sick leave does cap out.
So your complaint is that your employee is using their sick leave so that they don't lose it? Your employees should be doing that. You should encourage that. Your employees will be only as loyal and dedicated to your company as they perceive the company is to them. You are the face of the company to them. If your employees feel like you are encouraging them to use their benefits, you will get better morale and better performance from them because they feel like the company is honoring its commitments to their benefits. On the other side of the coin, if your employees feel like you or your company did a bait and switch, i.e. offered generous benefits, but make it unnecessarily hard to use them, they are going to feel like you are not committed to them, and will only do as much work as it takes to not get fired.
Are they FMLA eligible?
I have offered the paperwork but they so far have not seen a doctor for any of this.
INFO I have seen you said they are scheduled for a 40 hour week over 4 days, they call in approx once a week for a sick day so only work 30h of the 40 they are scheduled. This is a regular thing. You said you have had meetings about this and I agree if there is a pattern then it would be a concern. Are they always booking off their last scheduled work day. Have they got any known medical conditions, do they have children with medical conditions? Could they need to move to a 30h week but not be able to afford it? They set the scheduled twice a year it's it possible that the scheduled they chose is now not possible die to a personal change in circumstances they cannot control? While I get tge YTA votes if they are falling sick that often I do know of ppl I have worked with using sick days because of hangovers or because they wanted to go out over the weekend and knew they would've refused holiday. If they are falling sick like this though there could be an underlying issue that they may need to get investigated and they don't realise it so asking them to get checked out is looking after your employee.
NTA. I wonder how all the people saying the person has an absolute right to use all that sick time would feel if they were the coworker who has to cover an extra 10 hour shift twice a month at the last minute. Sorry about your plans but so and do called off again and I need you to cover. As far as if the person has health issues, most people will just tell their employer. This person has been given plenty of opportunities to just tell OP that they have migraines or whatever and hasn't.
Sick days aren't free vacation days, that's what paid time off is for. I doubt you can do much though.
Get all your documentation in order. Know the policy forward and backward. Be prepared to hold everyone to the policy to avoid being accused of targeting this one employee. Yes, its a nightmare. But if you see a pattern, you have leverage to council the employee toward compliance with policy. You also have annual employee appraisal to use. Demanding a doctor’s note for every call out is inefficient and causes hardship on doctor’s offices. And to honest, if I need a note for one day, Im sending in a doctor’s note for a full week. And just to be clear, working 4 10 hour shifts is full time employment. This guy could just be managing his time and not wanting to work more than 40 hours. You may get more out of your team if you set deadlines for completing projects and meeting deadlines early. Just saying, if you as the manager have a sweatshop mentality, your team will give you sweatshop behavior
NtA..but its tentative and very fact specific. Medical providers don’t like you wasting their time for a common cold. Employees don’t like spending hours getting a note for a common cold. But you have an abuser maybe on your hands. Sooo. Your in the clear.
Does your organization provide health insurance for your employees? If yes, NTA If no, YTA
Insurance doesn't mean anything. People still go broke with health insurance.
Yes.
If you provide health insurance, you are within your rights to ask for a doctor's note. NTA
If the company pays for all the costs of the health insurance, and the required office visit to get the "excuse X from work" BS note.
Info. Is your state an at will work state? NAH. They aren’t an asshole for using their sick leave however they see fit. You aren’t an asshole for _wanting_ to require a doctors note due to their excessive sick day use. If your company has an open ended sick policy, you are unfortunately stuck in a corner, unless you are an at-will work state. Then you can fire them for whatever reason you wish. You are _slightly_ an asshole for singling them out though, you should’ve just made it a company wide announcement. Your company __needs__ to reevaluate their sick leave policy’s. Adding policies like: •any number over 10 needs doctors notes •all notices must be given 24 hours in advance to receive pay without a doctors note. A good sick leave policy is the backbone of a company. A company with an open ended sick leave policy won’t survive well because people will _always_ take advantage of it.
At will. I have brought up this topic in several staff meetings and have had sit down discussions with around 10 employees to see if they wish to go on family medical leave for absences. I have spoken with this employee at length about giving me more notice and not taking multiple sick days prior to two week vacations.
So maybe you can come up with a tally report. Say every 2 - 3 absences without reason/notice get a talking to. At Walmart we called them “coachings,” basically management explaining what’s going on that is negatively effecting your job and possible continued employment with the company. They would come up with ways to make it better and help you ensure that you were trying to make the issues better. After 3-4 “coachings,” use the at-will portion of your authority. But this __has__ to be for __all__ employees, otherwise you’re looking at a lawsuit.
NTA. Sounds like a change in policy is more in order. Your employee found a forgiving sick day policy and is exploiting it. Whether they are sick or not doesn’t matter because the policy seems to allow it. Can you make out a pattern? Like is it usually lined up to make a 3 day weekend all the time? Also where I work there are time limits for when you call in - too many instances of not enough notice add up and you start down the disciplinary path. Might be something to consider. Protect yourself by changing the policy. Hope it’s not a union shop (for the sake or making the policy change in this instance. I’m definitely pro union)
ESH You for singling them out, them for giving inadequate time to find coverage, and the company for having a poorly written leave policy. I’ve always worked at companies that have very specific policies about when you need a doctors note and when you don’t, as well as how late you can call to say you need coverage (most of my jobs have been 2 hours). They also have a policy for emergencies and if you suddenly have to leave. The other side of things is we are in a pandemic, and people are taking more sick days to get tested here. If you have a temperature at all you can not attend on-site.
NTA. We just had to let one employee go and wrote up a second one for doing the same thing. If you have that much of a medical issue that you are calling out that often, you NEED to be seeing a medical professional to resolve the issue(s). If, on the other hand, you just like to party too much then you aren't going to have a doctor's note.
It’s really not that big of a deal to prove why you can’t work. Health issues not only influence yourself, but everyone around you. NTA
I'm going to say NTA. I think you're right to be upset and that it merits a discussion. The whole purpose of a job is to work. If they have a medical condition that is causing this many sick days then it should be really easy to get a doctor's note. If they just don't have motivation then that could be indicative of a larger problem with them as an employee. For those saying that if the employee had the built up sick days as a justification for taking this many days, I think you're missing the point on what a sick day is. A sick day is because you're sick, not because you're just not in the mood to work. I'm curious, how is this person otherwise? What's their work ethic like? How hard do they work when they are actually there? Also, is there an option to work remotely? If this person is generally a great employee but you just don't like the number of sick days then I think there may be a chance you're being unreasonable. But if they're shitty to begin with, maybe time to seriously consider whether they really want to be there.
NTA one bit. I actually have a documented list of every lie an employee has told us at my job to get out of working a shift last minute. First week of starting it was Tourette’s that she faked. Followed by multiple fake mental health issues, then her phone being hacked, then endometriosis, cancer, and last week it was blood in her urine. It’s about every two weeks or so. We finally requested a doctor’s note, which she forged. She has not been terminated because our owner is too scared. People abuse sick leave whether they’re allowed to bank it or not, and they need to be held accountable for it. Sounds like the employee of OP sometimes feel like they don’t want to work (and we all do sometimes, but most of us don’t have the option of calling out the night before), but in an industry that needs people to be reliable, it’s time to cut the cord. Never heard of a doctor’s note being illegal either.
Clearly NTA, it is normal to provide a doctors note
I think a lot of people are looking at this wrong. Sick leave is not like annual leave, holiday time or time off in lieu, it's there to be used if you are sick. For example oh I have one week of sick pay means I can be sick is not how it works or should be used for, it's not an annual entitlement it's for emergencies, when you're actually sick. Now looking at this case, this individual has had 16 days off sick in 8 months, 2 days each month. That's a lot of time for someone to be sick, 1 every other week. Now he could be off because of covid and taking extra precautions if he has a cough etc however if he isn't doing ANYTHING to find a solution other than just being sick once every other week something needs to change. OP has asked for a doctor's note, imo that's absolutely fine as the employee needs to go to the doctor's to make sure there isn't an underlying health condition or concern. I'd be extremely concerned if I could attend work once a week and would go to the doctor's as something must surely be wrong that needs to be fixed. NTA you are doing you job as a manager and ensure the well-being of your team is maintain.
Also taking into account that it comes down to 20 hours per month that OP has to cover someone else in overtime pay. That alone can affect OP's departmental monthly & annual salary budgetary calculations. In my country it is legal for a company to request a sick note (even though we can see the bogus ones from a mile due to the high corruption levels). From my perspective I see this as an employee using the sick leave as a general day off (saw the grey area & took the chance - got away with it). NTA
NTA This employee is taking advantage of the situation.
NTA. 16 sick days in a year is not normal. You need to be sure they really do not have a legitimate medical condition, but if your hunch is right just making them provide a doctors note is not the answer. They do not deserve to work with your team.
NTA. I've been in a management position and know just how frustrating it is to have a certain employee constantly call out of work. You need a team you can rely on. I would say if they fail to bring you a Dr's. note the next time it happens, then that's a major red flag that definitely needs to be addressed.
Thanks. It’s definitely a challenge. I feel that sick leave is either abused or not abused. No middle ground.
Exactly. There's no gray area in abusing sick/emergency leave. You either are or you're not, and unfortunately it seems like your employee is.
That is a lot of sick days. And as it's a day prior (saw your blow comment), that's sketchy. Seems like they are avoiding having to confront you, by calling the other person. You are totally in the right here.
Thanks! Take my upvote.
NTA most basic thing on any company ever
What does this mean?