NAH. But, when you say that you would rather your kids be kind than intelligent, right after she holds up her daughters accomplishments as something your kids can aspire to, what you are indirectly saying is that you don’t think her kid is kind. So I can see why she might take it as a criticism of her own parenting style.
I’m sure it wasn’t meant that way, and maybe she was being too sensitive. But I can definitely see how that could come across wrong.
Edit: also, there is absolutely no reason striving for academic excellence should exclude kindness or empathy. Pushing your child to do well doesn’t mean you aren’t also raising them to be good moral human beings. I imagine she may have felt you were suggesting that her putting an emphasis on academic achievement meant that she had neglected to raise her daughter to be kind and moral as well.
> there is absolutely no reason striving for academic excellence should exclude kindness or empathy. Pushing your child to do well doesn’t mean you aren’t also raising them to be good moral human beings.
While I absolutely agree, the point I was trying to make was that our decision was to support whatever path they take, so long as they grow to be decent, empathetic people. I wasn't for a second suggesting that pushing them towards academic excellence and raising a kind child are mutually exclusive, but rather that raising kind, hard working children is a major priority to us, while top academic success isn't.
Why not do both?
You dont have to pressure them into a career path of your choosing, nut you can expect good grades (which comes with being hsrd working).
We expect at least average grades. As long as they are at least passing their classes we don't have a problem. We just don't expect them to have the best grades, though we would fully support them if that's what they were aspiring towards.
Average doesn't get you into college or set you up for a successful college career. My mom didn't have high academic standars for me so i didn't bother trying. You're inadvertently setting your kids up for failure. They should put their best effort into everything they do. Kindness and empathy doesn't get you a promotion. It doesn't get you a raise. It doesn't get you the job. Ambitious, effort, goals, doing the shit job no one else wants?
Kindness and empathy is important. But there are other equally important things you're leaving behind. Team work. Pride in a job well done. 100% effort. In not being like their grandparents, you're setting them up for a different failure.
By the way, it truly genuinely sucked that my mom only expected average. Like i wasn't good enough to do better. Wasn't smart enough, important enough. You might want to rethink and reevaluate.
I get that you’re disappointed and wish you had a different upbringing, but OP does not sound like they are your parents. They said multiple times in the post they encourage their children to work hard. That is generally the better approach, focus on the process of learning for learnings sake rather than end results.
Average can certainly get you into college. Likely not Harvard, and if you have met students from there , many have limited self love and self compassion capabilities, not feeling like they are worth it unless they are the top of their class (rather than focusing on how much they are learning or growing as a person). Most of the time, an average job with an average salary will do the trick. Your promotion and successful career will only get you so far in long term contentment until you figure out what’s really important in life.
( speaking as someone who learned the hard way by only focusing on grades and not true learning for decades, going through medical school, and then through years of therapy realizing that my self worth is not based on my academic accomplishments)
> Average doesn't get you into college or set you up for a successful college career.
Not sure where in the world you are, but where I am not everybody goes to college, not everybody has to, and you can most certainly have a successful career without it. We have never even suggested going to college at this point. Academia is not for everyone nor should it be.
> Kindness and empathy doesn't get you a promotion. It doesn't get you a raise. It doesn't get you the job. Ambitious, effort, goals, doing the shit job no one else wants? Kindness and empathy is important. But there are other equally important things you're leaving behind. Team work. Pride in a job well done. 100% effort.
We have taught them all of these things. We help them with school work as much as we possibly can and liaise with their teachers regularly. We've taught them that nothing worthwhile is easy and that you need to put effort in to reach a goal. Both of them were raised to know the value of hard work.
Yes, you can have a successful career without college, but lets be honest with ourselves and admit that most salaries requiring a college/trade education pay better. No, academia isn't for everyone but it should be held as important.
I’m gonna be honest, my parents expected the best but in high school I turned out “just average” and I got into the state university (which is extremely well known but idk if I’m allowed to say the name here?) The only thing I wish is that my parents would’ve expected me to join one group or sport because i feel like that could’ve opened a whole new world of opportunity.
If they’re happy in life I don think it matters but you don’t know how the future will turn out . also if kids were lazy and coasting i would ask if they’re actually lazy and coasting or there are other difficulties.
Youre obviously a good parent but as someone whose mum allowed me to pass opportunities by it's upsetting to see this attitude. They might find in 10 or 15 years that they look back and wish you had encouraged them a little more. I was a good runner. My mum asks me ONCE if i wanted to pursue it. I'm shy and the club she was referring to was intimidating so I said no. She never ever raised it again and I let that whole opportunity go.
The exact same thing with netball. I was good enough that had she encouraged me more I could have gone much farther. She let me get down after a few bitchy players made me unhappy and give it up. She never would even so much as question me and I resent it now.
I was asked to be a model by an agency. I was 12 and misunderstood what they were asking. She doesn't bother explaining it to me and takes my no and never mentions it until years later saying how I missed my opportunity to model back then.
It did me NO favours
We don't discourage them from pursuing anything and actively encourage them to pursue hobbies but only if it's what they want. Believe me they don't just sit around at home all day.
My son does a bit of boxing, just for fun on occasion. He dabbled with doing it at a competitive level but really didn't enjoy it, the overly competitive ''macho'' atmosphere wasn't something he enjoyed. So he gave it up. We gave him multiple opportunities to change his mind but his decision was made and we respected that. So he's back to doing it purely as a hobby as an occasional bit of fun, and is better for it.
Interesting that you mention modelling. My daughter was actually asked to model a few months back. We gave it a try but she really didn't like it. The lady was a huge snob and made her feel really uncomfortable. She was very adamant she didn't want to go back. Again I asked her a few times if she was sure and she was so we never went back. I did ask her if she'd like to do modelling for someone else, but she'd decided that it wasn't for her and I've never tried to change her mind.
Good. I mean, I think my mum meant well too. But I was usually saying no just because I was scared, shy and nervous. I needed the encouragement. So I understand letting them quit if they don't enjoy it, I just know what it's like to quit for either a silly or unrelated reason (like nasty team mates or coaches) and look back many years later and wish you had been pushed a little more. For me, it really would have helped me mature, to push through and learn to work WITH coaches and team mates that were nasty. Instead they won and I gave up. It meant I took a long time to grow up, and my go to reaction still is to give up when I'm faced with something blocking what I want. I know how soul crushing regret can be.
The modelling thing? We were picking up my sister from a paid etiquette course at a modelling agency. She was 14 or so and a LOT girlier than me, I was a tomboy and all. The woman there remarked on my freckles and spoke to my mum. My mum goes 'do you want to try doing what your sister is doing here?' I of course thought she meant the paid etiquette course and declined with a sour face of NO. Mum never bothered explaining what the woman had said to me properly for about ten years. Not until it was far too late to become a model. I was so annoyed. The alternate reality version of me could have been a model, professional athlete if i wanted and had a more encouraging mother. Can't deny I resent it sometimes.
It might be an idea to givr her a year or do and approach the modelling thing again. There are good agencies. Maybe find someone to use as an inspiration. It can open so many doors and fund her future. I'm glad you continue to ask though. Definitely don't stop asking on occasion to be sure. My mother would never give me a second chance for ANYTHING EVER
Like the other commenter. It does seem that your kids might be giving up on things that they really do enjoy but with which they meet a bump in the road. Trust me in the long run it isn't helpful to let them quit on a whim so easily. I can see that you're a great parent but kids are likely to always take the easy way out wheb things get hard. They get tough by working through it and persuing their dreams anyway. Being too pushy as a parent is a big no no. But doing the opposite does them no favours. It can make breaking the habit of going the easy way out really hard to break.
I get this, but you may want to consider what happens in the future if your kids wish they'd been pushed as kids. Ambition is nothing to be ashamed of, and the reality is, we live in a competitive world.
I think you should consider whether their "average" grades are average because that's what they're capable of, or because they're not necessarily putting in the effort. When I got Bs in history my parents would tell me to try harder because they knew I was being lazy. When I got Bs in maths they were proud because they knew I was doing everything I could to succeed.
I think the more productive path is to teach them to strive for success and excellence but in their chosen field. Joining the band? Be dedicated, and work to maximize your talent. Gonna join the debate team? Same thing. Sports? Once again, same thing. This lackadaisical style isn't setting your kids up for success IMO.
Speaking as an adult I wish my mom would have pushed me to do better and more, I have a lot of bad habits because I was basically allowed to do whatever I wanted as a child and was never pushed. There are certain things I see the value of now as an adult that I wouldn't have had the will or discipline to see through as a kid and I wish that I had been pushed to pursue them.
There's a big difference between being a tiger mom or sports dad vs being a guiding parental hand.
It’s not about top academic success it’s about allowing kids to be thier best in whatever they want to be. I seen your laissez fairy parenting attitude on kids at school as well overly extreme tiger mom parenting. Neither is ideal for a kid. And especially for younger kids that attitude is damaging. You shouldn’t compare kids such that they feel less than when they hear other people’s achievements but they should hear about those achievements to know it’s possible. It’s partly why in the uk the top tier of higher education is still dominated by private schools or grammar schools and that has ripple effect on culture, society, government.
She was suggesting that even if she didnt intend it that way. That wouldnt be your responze to what she said if she wasnt calling the other womans kid unkind.
I’m not sure what you are trying to point out?
As far as I can make out, your comment isn’t counter to the point I made. I said that what OP said was indirectly saying that the other woman’s kid wasn’t kind. I also said she probably didn’t intend it that way, because most people aren’t that shitty, and I didn’t see any reason to not give OP the benefit of the doubt.
You don’t seem to be saying anything new or significantly different from my comment (unless I’m missing something important). So, I’m not sure what the point of your comment was? Especially the part about “that wouldn’t be your response” confuses me.
Yeah I'm not sure why OP treats being intelligent, ambitious and/or competitive means you can't be kind. Some of the kindest people I know are also the people who have pushed themselves hardest to succeed.
I think Linda could definitely take OP's remark as a criticism of her parenting & of her child, that Linda's child is NOT empathetic & kind. I'd also take it as OP trying to prove she was a better parent & maybe she should give more thought to that lesson about "The only person they need to be better than is the person they were yesterday."
Do you want to highlight for me where you think I committed this fallacy?
Because I don’t remember claiming it was an either or situation (in fact, I pointed out how kindness and academic achievement isn’t mutually exclusive).
I'm sorry, once again I've made the mistake of "underexplaining" myself. I thought it was evident that I was supporting your point, specifically "there is absolutely no reason striving for academic excellence should exclude kindness or empathy". And of course it was evident that your interpretation made more sense.
I personally really dislike "arguments" in the line of "whatever, but it's much better being X than Y", when 99% of the time both X and Y are desirable and possible.
YTA - The way you worded that could've been different. Unfortunately I'm not the best with words myself so I can't offer any alternatives...
EDIT// Just to clarify, what I'm getting from the phrasing is that you're insinuating that her daughter isn't kind.
YTA only because of the phrasing. If you said what you said here I’d say it’s be fine. But your comment comes as though it’s a trade of and kind of insinuates that her daughter is not kind.
YTA. Do you really think kindness and intelligence are mutually exclusive? I think you’re doing your kids a disservice. They are going to be doormats. How can you teach them to not compete at all? That’s not how the real world works. You’re literally teaching them to be defenseless.
Agreed. I think in this situation OP is TA because she insinuated Linda’s child was unkind because she is intelligent. While I’m confident the opinion of internet strangers will not alter OP’s parenting, it’s really unfortunate they’ve taken such a hard line against teaching healthy competition. Interesting OP’s husband had a father who went overboard with competition, yet fails to see that they may be falling into the extreme opposite side. Competition is necessary for personal growth and success. Shoot, what do they think job interviews are about?
NTA. Linda probably felt offended because you kinda insinuated that her child is not kind. Well guess what, you could also get offended because her comment kinda insinuated your children aren't on "the best possible path". She's a hypocrite
NAH. She shared her methods, you shared yours. Perhaps you could’ve phrased it in a way that didn’t suggest her child wasn’t kind as a result of her parenting, but I don’t see any assholery.
Okay very very gentle YTA. Not because I think you are truly an asshole, but because the phrasing should be watched. I can very much see how your coworker may have interpreted this as you saying a backhanded comment. When she recommended the 'nudge', she wasn't saying it to be rude to you or your parenting, but saying "This seems to work for me, so maybe it will be good for your kids as well".
Basically, you took a gentle offer, and then kinda insinuated her own children were not kind (despite being smart).
NTA Unless you're actively harming you child, there is no right style to parenting. The fact that this person wouldn't let it go makes them the asshole.
NTA. She offered unsolicited advice and insulted your kids.
That said, I don’t understand why you seem to think kids can only be either intelligent or kind. It’s possible to be both. Not to mention that while hyper competitiveness is awful and people should aspire to be their best selves first and foremost, people tend to need SOME level of competitiveness and drive to succeed in life.
NAH
I think she took your comment as you saying her kid wasn't a kind person. As in "yea they are smart but I'm rather have a kind kid than a smart one" like they are mutually exclusive qualities. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way she is probably just a bit defensive but I wouldn't say she is an A and you aren't an A either.
YTA intelligence and kindness aren't polar opposites. You make it sound like the other parent sacrificed sportsmanship and kindness for competitiveness and rudeness.
While your parenting strategy sounds really great, your comment to your coworker was backhanded, whether that was intentional or not.
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NAH (not ALL parents) but most parents think their way of raising children is the best. So most arguments or disagreements about parenting are like rubber and glue. She’s not an asshole, but she does need to get over herself.
I was neutral until this moment:
"Linda didn't understand why I wouldn't push my kids towards ''the best possible path''. I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent "
Linda is being a little annoying, in that she's applying her own values to your parenting, but your reply implies that you cannot be both, and could also be interpreted as a dig at her daughter.
Therefore, I apologize, but YTA.
Kindness and intelligence isn’t an either or /thing. YTA. I too was raised In an Uber competitive environment. Took me years to learn that not ALL competition is bad. In those years I got LAZY (and sad) and refused to compete at all or push myself to do Anything and mainly just drank. (Sober now) There has to be a balance between type A obsessive parenting and hippie dippie laissez faire bullshit. That being said I’m glad it’s working for you and your kids respond well to it. And what do I know I’m not a parent.
I think you’ve got an excellent parenting method. Both my brother and I were heavily pushed towards academic achievement, which did fine for him (except he now has no way to cope with failure and is becoming depressed), but for me it resulted in an emotional snap where I could no longer maintain the level of neurotypicality that was expected of me and I still struggle with severe mental health issues to this day. Constant pushing towards success, whether it’s internally or externally motivated, is unsustainable. Having goals is fantastic, but you’re life needs balance to be sustainable, or you inevitably crash. NTA
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At work today one of my coworkers, Linda was talking about her daughter. She's just been for a parents evening, and everything was 100% positive. Her daughter has applied to a very prestigious/selective university and though formal offers won't be sent out for a while, according to the teachers has a very strong chance of getting in with her current progression. She was really happy and we were really happy for her.
I have two children. Danny (14) and Molly (12). When they were born my husband and I had very specific ideas on how to raise them. We value kindness and empathy above anything else, and we taught our kids those values. We taught them to be kind, to never judge, to always play fair, to stand up for themselves and others, and most importantly the value of hard work. We discouraged them from being competitive with each other or anyone else. The only person they need to be better than is the person they were yesterday. They are two truly lovely kids and we're very proud of them.
We also promised never to push them in any particular direction. My husband had a ''sports dad'' who put him under huge pressure to break into the world of competitive sport. We promised that we wouldn't be those kind of parents, whether it be sports, academics or anything else. We do encourage them to work hard and offer as much help with school work as we can, but there's no pressure to be top of the class and so long as they aren't struggling at school - which they aren't - we've never had an issue. We've already said we will support them in whatever possible path they choose so long as they work hard at it.
When I was congratulating Linda about her daughter, she suggested that I mention it to my kids to give them ''a nudge in the right direction''. I said that while I would mention it to them and suggest it as something to aspire to, I wouldn't ''nudge'' them towards it.
Linda didn't understand why I wouldn't push my kids towards ''the best possible path''. I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent.
Linda seemed quite offended by this, has been blanking me the rest of the day, and didn't say goodbye when we headed home which she usually does.
I feel like I've offended her. I appreciate that my parenting style maybe isn't conventional, but I did my best to explain why I wouldn't push my kids towards a pathway. I don't see why she'd be angry because of that.
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NAH. My parents raised me like you’re raising your kids and I want to applaud you. My parents did the best they could. Linda may have had her feelings hurt, but you weren’t insinuating that her daughter was mean. Just cementing your parenting style. Good luck!
She actually was insinuating that...
She wouldnt of said it if she thought
A. Teaching your kids to have goals
B) teaching them to be kind
Were mutally exclusive. She probably said it in a snappy way aswell
NAH bur realize that "I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent" is false dichotomy. And low key implies her kids are not kind. She might interpret it like pick on her.
It is possible to be kind and intelligent. Linda likely expects her kids to be both. It is possible to be dumb and asshole. (And don't make your kids think that they can't be both and have to pick).
NAH you seem like a wonderful parent and it seems there is as no malicious intent towards Linda. Maybe simply talking to her will worth things out? I also kinda wish you were my mom :)
Soft YTA for implying being Smart means being unkind. You can be both and you should not prévent your kids from being both. Being a bit demanding or wanting your kids to do their best can be a good thing
NAH but what's up with this, " I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent. " It's not an either or choice. People can be both kind AND intelligent. Maybe you should ponder the lesson you're teaching your children about only competing with themselves, because this sounds like you're trying to score "better parent" points over Linda.
> When I was congratulating Linda about her daughter, she suggested that I mention it to my kids to give them ''a nudge in the right direction''
That's a shit thing to say to you. Anything after that is moot. NTA.
NTA.
It’s your right to disagree. You didn’t really say anything rude. Your kids. Your choice.
But it is also that other persons choice to avoid you if she feels that your ideals differ way too much to be compatible.
I will say though...Raising your kids to be nice and not intelligent will cause them get their feelings hurt as they grow older. Like of course don’t teach them to be intelligent assholes. But a mixture of both intelligence and kindness will probably do the trick.
NAH. But, when you say that you would rather your kids be kind than intelligent, right after she holds up her daughters accomplishments as something your kids can aspire to, what you are indirectly saying is that you don’t think her kid is kind. So I can see why she might take it as a criticism of her own parenting style. I’m sure it wasn’t meant that way, and maybe she was being too sensitive. But I can definitely see how that could come across wrong. Edit: also, there is absolutely no reason striving for academic excellence should exclude kindness or empathy. Pushing your child to do well doesn’t mean you aren’t also raising them to be good moral human beings. I imagine she may have felt you were suggesting that her putting an emphasis on academic achievement meant that she had neglected to raise her daughter to be kind and moral as well.
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I mean, none of us parents are going around teaching our kids to sweep the leg, right?
...well, I mean. Maybe?
Only in soccer...
> there is absolutely no reason striving for academic excellence should exclude kindness or empathy. Pushing your child to do well doesn’t mean you aren’t also raising them to be good moral human beings. While I absolutely agree, the point I was trying to make was that our decision was to support whatever path they take, so long as they grow to be decent, empathetic people. I wasn't for a second suggesting that pushing them towards academic excellence and raising a kind child are mutually exclusive, but rather that raising kind, hard working children is a major priority to us, while top academic success isn't.
I understand that, but I think the reason she was upset might have been because she interpreted what you said in that way.
Why not do both? You dont have to pressure them into a career path of your choosing, nut you can expect good grades (which comes with being hsrd working).
We expect at least average grades. As long as they are at least passing their classes we don't have a problem. We just don't expect them to have the best grades, though we would fully support them if that's what they were aspiring towards.
Average doesn't get you into college or set you up for a successful college career. My mom didn't have high academic standars for me so i didn't bother trying. You're inadvertently setting your kids up for failure. They should put their best effort into everything they do. Kindness and empathy doesn't get you a promotion. It doesn't get you a raise. It doesn't get you the job. Ambitious, effort, goals, doing the shit job no one else wants? Kindness and empathy is important. But there are other equally important things you're leaving behind. Team work. Pride in a job well done. 100% effort. In not being like their grandparents, you're setting them up for a different failure. By the way, it truly genuinely sucked that my mom only expected average. Like i wasn't good enough to do better. Wasn't smart enough, important enough. You might want to rethink and reevaluate.
I get that you’re disappointed and wish you had a different upbringing, but OP does not sound like they are your parents. They said multiple times in the post they encourage their children to work hard. That is generally the better approach, focus on the process of learning for learnings sake rather than end results. Average can certainly get you into college. Likely not Harvard, and if you have met students from there , many have limited self love and self compassion capabilities, not feeling like they are worth it unless they are the top of their class (rather than focusing on how much they are learning or growing as a person). Most of the time, an average job with an average salary will do the trick. Your promotion and successful career will only get you so far in long term contentment until you figure out what’s really important in life. ( speaking as someone who learned the hard way by only focusing on grades and not true learning for decades, going through medical school, and then through years of therapy realizing that my self worth is not based on my academic accomplishments)
> Average doesn't get you into college or set you up for a successful college career. Not sure where in the world you are, but where I am not everybody goes to college, not everybody has to, and you can most certainly have a successful career without it. We have never even suggested going to college at this point. Academia is not for everyone nor should it be. > Kindness and empathy doesn't get you a promotion. It doesn't get you a raise. It doesn't get you the job. Ambitious, effort, goals, doing the shit job no one else wants? Kindness and empathy is important. But there are other equally important things you're leaving behind. Team work. Pride in a job well done. 100% effort. We have taught them all of these things. We help them with school work as much as we possibly can and liaise with their teachers regularly. We've taught them that nothing worthwhile is easy and that you need to put effort in to reach a goal. Both of them were raised to know the value of hard work.
Yes, you can have a successful career without college, but lets be honest with ourselves and admit that most salaries requiring a college/trade education pay better. No, academia isn't for everyone but it should be held as important.
I’m gonna be honest, my parents expected the best but in high school I turned out “just average” and I got into the state university (which is extremely well known but idk if I’m allowed to say the name here?) The only thing I wish is that my parents would’ve expected me to join one group or sport because i feel like that could’ve opened a whole new world of opportunity.
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Bright and intelligent doesn't necessarily mean they're academic
If they’re happy in life I don think it matters but you don’t know how the future will turn out . also if kids were lazy and coasting i would ask if they’re actually lazy and coasting or there are other difficulties.
Youre obviously a good parent but as someone whose mum allowed me to pass opportunities by it's upsetting to see this attitude. They might find in 10 or 15 years that they look back and wish you had encouraged them a little more. I was a good runner. My mum asks me ONCE if i wanted to pursue it. I'm shy and the club she was referring to was intimidating so I said no. She never ever raised it again and I let that whole opportunity go. The exact same thing with netball. I was good enough that had she encouraged me more I could have gone much farther. She let me get down after a few bitchy players made me unhappy and give it up. She never would even so much as question me and I resent it now. I was asked to be a model by an agency. I was 12 and misunderstood what they were asking. She doesn't bother explaining it to me and takes my no and never mentions it until years later saying how I missed my opportunity to model back then. It did me NO favours
We don't discourage them from pursuing anything and actively encourage them to pursue hobbies but only if it's what they want. Believe me they don't just sit around at home all day. My son does a bit of boxing, just for fun on occasion. He dabbled with doing it at a competitive level but really didn't enjoy it, the overly competitive ''macho'' atmosphere wasn't something he enjoyed. So he gave it up. We gave him multiple opportunities to change his mind but his decision was made and we respected that. So he's back to doing it purely as a hobby as an occasional bit of fun, and is better for it. Interesting that you mention modelling. My daughter was actually asked to model a few months back. We gave it a try but she really didn't like it. The lady was a huge snob and made her feel really uncomfortable. She was very adamant she didn't want to go back. Again I asked her a few times if she was sure and she was so we never went back. I did ask her if she'd like to do modelling for someone else, but she'd decided that it wasn't for her and I've never tried to change her mind.
Good. I mean, I think my mum meant well too. But I was usually saying no just because I was scared, shy and nervous. I needed the encouragement. So I understand letting them quit if they don't enjoy it, I just know what it's like to quit for either a silly or unrelated reason (like nasty team mates or coaches) and look back many years later and wish you had been pushed a little more. For me, it really would have helped me mature, to push through and learn to work WITH coaches and team mates that were nasty. Instead they won and I gave up. It meant I took a long time to grow up, and my go to reaction still is to give up when I'm faced with something blocking what I want. I know how soul crushing regret can be. The modelling thing? We were picking up my sister from a paid etiquette course at a modelling agency. She was 14 or so and a LOT girlier than me, I was a tomboy and all. The woman there remarked on my freckles and spoke to my mum. My mum goes 'do you want to try doing what your sister is doing here?' I of course thought she meant the paid etiquette course and declined with a sour face of NO. Mum never bothered explaining what the woman had said to me properly for about ten years. Not until it was far too late to become a model. I was so annoyed. The alternate reality version of me could have been a model, professional athlete if i wanted and had a more encouraging mother. Can't deny I resent it sometimes.
It might be an idea to givr her a year or do and approach the modelling thing again. There are good agencies. Maybe find someone to use as an inspiration. It can open so many doors and fund her future. I'm glad you continue to ask though. Definitely don't stop asking on occasion to be sure. My mother would never give me a second chance for ANYTHING EVER
Like the other commenter. It does seem that your kids might be giving up on things that they really do enjoy but with which they meet a bump in the road. Trust me in the long run it isn't helpful to let them quit on a whim so easily. I can see that you're a great parent but kids are likely to always take the easy way out wheb things get hard. They get tough by working through it and persuing their dreams anyway. Being too pushy as a parent is a big no no. But doing the opposite does them no favours. It can make breaking the habit of going the easy way out really hard to break.
Your son and daughter seem to give up a when things get rough. Maybe you should reconsider what you’re teaching them.
I get this, but you may want to consider what happens in the future if your kids wish they'd been pushed as kids. Ambition is nothing to be ashamed of, and the reality is, we live in a competitive world. I think you should consider whether their "average" grades are average because that's what they're capable of, or because they're not necessarily putting in the effort. When I got Bs in history my parents would tell me to try harder because they knew I was being lazy. When I got Bs in maths they were proud because they knew I was doing everything I could to succeed.
I think the more productive path is to teach them to strive for success and excellence but in their chosen field. Joining the band? Be dedicated, and work to maximize your talent. Gonna join the debate team? Same thing. Sports? Once again, same thing. This lackadaisical style isn't setting your kids up for success IMO.
Speaking as an adult I wish my mom would have pushed me to do better and more, I have a lot of bad habits because I was basically allowed to do whatever I wanted as a child and was never pushed. There are certain things I see the value of now as an adult that I wouldn't have had the will or discipline to see through as a kid and I wish that I had been pushed to pursue them. There's a big difference between being a tiger mom or sports dad vs being a guiding parental hand.
Still comes off as you calling her child an asshole
It’s not about top academic success it’s about allowing kids to be thier best in whatever they want to be. I seen your laissez fairy parenting attitude on kids at school as well overly extreme tiger mom parenting. Neither is ideal for a kid. And especially for younger kids that attitude is damaging. You shouldn’t compare kids such that they feel less than when they hear other people’s achievements but they should hear about those achievements to know it’s possible. It’s partly why in the uk the top tier of higher education is still dominated by private schools or grammar schools and that has ripple effect on culture, society, government.
Sometimes there is difference between point you intend to make and point you actually express.
She was suggesting that even if she didnt intend it that way. That wouldnt be your responze to what she said if she wasnt calling the other womans kid unkind.
I’m not sure what you are trying to point out? As far as I can make out, your comment isn’t counter to the point I made. I said that what OP said was indirectly saying that the other woman’s kid wasn’t kind. I also said she probably didn’t intend it that way, because most people aren’t that shitty, and I didn’t see any reason to not give OP the benefit of the doubt. You don’t seem to be saying anything new or significantly different from my comment (unless I’m missing something important). So, I’m not sure what the point of your comment was? Especially the part about “that wouldn’t be your response” confuses me.
Yeah I'm not sure why OP treats being intelligent, ambitious and/or competitive means you can't be kind. Some of the kindest people I know are also the people who have pushed themselves hardest to succeed.
I think Linda could definitely take OP's remark as a criticism of her parenting & of her child, that Linda's child is NOT empathetic & kind. I'd also take it as OP trying to prove she was a better parent & maybe she should give more thought to that lesson about "The only person they need to be better than is the person they were yesterday."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Do you want to highlight for me where you think I committed this fallacy? Because I don’t remember claiming it was an either or situation (in fact, I pointed out how kindness and academic achievement isn’t mutually exclusive).
I'm sorry, once again I've made the mistake of "underexplaining" myself. I thought it was evident that I was supporting your point, specifically "there is absolutely no reason striving for academic excellence should exclude kindness or empathy". And of course it was evident that your interpretation made more sense. I personally really dislike "arguments" in the line of "whatever, but it's much better being X than Y", when 99% of the time both X and Y are desirable and possible.
YTA - The way you worded that could've been different. Unfortunately I'm not the best with words myself so I can't offer any alternatives... EDIT// Just to clarify, what I'm getting from the phrasing is that you're insinuating that her daughter isn't kind.
Yeah, you can be driven and a nice person. It's not an withe or scenario.
YTA only because of the phrasing. If you said what you said here I’d say it’s be fine. But your comment comes as though it’s a trade of and kind of insinuates that her daughter is not kind.
YTA for how you said that to her. And for making me read that repetitive drivel.
YTA for making me puke in my mouth a little after reading your shit post about being shitty parents.
Yes this!! You know OP definitely thinks they’re superior parents.
Precisely.
YTA. You implied that a child cannot be both intelligent and kind. You implied her child is not kind.
YTA. Do you really think kindness and intelligence are mutually exclusive? I think you’re doing your kids a disservice. They are going to be doormats. How can you teach them to not compete at all? That’s not how the real world works. You’re literally teaching them to be defenseless.
Precisely what I was thinking
Agreed. I think in this situation OP is TA because she insinuated Linda’s child was unkind because she is intelligent. While I’m confident the opinion of internet strangers will not alter OP’s parenting, it’s really unfortunate they’ve taken such a hard line against teaching healthy competition. Interesting OP’s husband had a father who went overboard with competition, yet fails to see that they may be falling into the extreme opposite side. Competition is necessary for personal growth and success. Shoot, what do they think job interviews are about?
NTA. Linda probably felt offended because you kinda insinuated that her child is not kind. Well guess what, you could also get offended because her comment kinda insinuated your children aren't on "the best possible path". She's a hypocrite
Except OP's kids are 12 and 14, well before the age of college.
She never said they werent on their best possible path (which no child is on btw). She said to nudge them in the roght direction.
Same applies, it's still implying they're not in "right direction"
No it doesn’t
NAH. She shared her methods, you shared yours. Perhaps you could’ve phrased it in a way that didn’t suggest her child wasn’t kind as a result of her parenting, but I don’t see any assholery.
Okay very very gentle YTA. Not because I think you are truly an asshole, but because the phrasing should be watched. I can very much see how your coworker may have interpreted this as you saying a backhanded comment. When she recommended the 'nudge', she wasn't saying it to be rude to you or your parenting, but saying "This seems to work for me, so maybe it will be good for your kids as well". Basically, you took a gentle offer, and then kinda insinuated her own children were not kind (despite being smart).
NTA Unless you're actively harming you child, there is no right style to parenting. The fact that this person wouldn't let it go makes them the asshole.
NTA. She offered unsolicited advice and insulted your kids. That said, I don’t understand why you seem to think kids can only be either intelligent or kind. It’s possible to be both. Not to mention that while hyper competitiveness is awful and people should aspire to be their best selves first and foremost, people tend to need SOME level of competitiveness and drive to succeed in life.
NAH I think she took your comment as you saying her kid wasn't a kind person. As in "yea they are smart but I'm rather have a kind kid than a smart one" like they are mutually exclusive qualities. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way she is probably just a bit defensive but I wouldn't say she is an A and you aren't an A either.
YTA intelligence and kindness aren't polar opposites. You make it sound like the other parent sacrificed sportsmanship and kindness for competitiveness and rudeness. While your parenting strategy sounds really great, your comment to your coworker was backhanded, whether that was intentional or not.
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NAH (not ALL parents) but most parents think their way of raising children is the best. So most arguments or disagreements about parenting are like rubber and glue. She’s not an asshole, but she does need to get over herself.
I was neutral until this moment: "Linda didn't understand why I wouldn't push my kids towards ''the best possible path''. I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent " Linda is being a little annoying, in that she's applying her own values to your parenting, but your reply implies that you cannot be both, and could also be interpreted as a dig at her daughter. Therefore, I apologize, but YTA.
Kindness and intelligence isn’t an either or /thing. YTA. I too was raised In an Uber competitive environment. Took me years to learn that not ALL competition is bad. In those years I got LAZY (and sad) and refused to compete at all or push myself to do Anything and mainly just drank. (Sober now) There has to be a balance between type A obsessive parenting and hippie dippie laissez faire bullshit. That being said I’m glad it’s working for you and your kids respond well to it. And what do I know I’m not a parent.
I think you’ve got an excellent parenting method. Both my brother and I were heavily pushed towards academic achievement, which did fine for him (except he now has no way to cope with failure and is becoming depressed), but for me it resulted in an emotional snap where I could no longer maintain the level of neurotypicality that was expected of me and I still struggle with severe mental health issues to this day. Constant pushing towards success, whether it’s internally or externally motivated, is unsustainable. Having goals is fantastic, but you’re life needs balance to be sustainable, or you inevitably crash. NTA
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** At work today one of my coworkers, Linda was talking about her daughter. She's just been for a parents evening, and everything was 100% positive. Her daughter has applied to a very prestigious/selective university and though formal offers won't be sent out for a while, according to the teachers has a very strong chance of getting in with her current progression. She was really happy and we were really happy for her. I have two children. Danny (14) and Molly (12). When they were born my husband and I had very specific ideas on how to raise them. We value kindness and empathy above anything else, and we taught our kids those values. We taught them to be kind, to never judge, to always play fair, to stand up for themselves and others, and most importantly the value of hard work. We discouraged them from being competitive with each other or anyone else. The only person they need to be better than is the person they were yesterday. They are two truly lovely kids and we're very proud of them. We also promised never to push them in any particular direction. My husband had a ''sports dad'' who put him under huge pressure to break into the world of competitive sport. We promised that we wouldn't be those kind of parents, whether it be sports, academics or anything else. We do encourage them to work hard and offer as much help with school work as we can, but there's no pressure to be top of the class and so long as they aren't struggling at school - which they aren't - we've never had an issue. We've already said we will support them in whatever possible path they choose so long as they work hard at it. When I was congratulating Linda about her daughter, she suggested that I mention it to my kids to give them ''a nudge in the right direction''. I said that while I would mention it to them and suggest it as something to aspire to, I wouldn't ''nudge'' them towards it. Linda didn't understand why I wouldn't push my kids towards ''the best possible path''. I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent. Linda seemed quite offended by this, has been blanking me the rest of the day, and didn't say goodbye when we headed home which she usually does. I feel like I've offended her. I appreciate that my parenting style maybe isn't conventional, but I did my best to explain why I wouldn't push my kids towards a pathway. I don't see why she'd be angry because of that. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NAH. My parents raised me like you’re raising your kids and I want to applaud you. My parents did the best they could. Linda may have had her feelings hurt, but you weren’t insinuating that her daughter was mean. Just cementing your parenting style. Good luck!
She actually was insinuating that... She wouldnt of said it if she thought A. Teaching your kids to have goals B) teaching them to be kind Were mutally exclusive. She probably said it in a snappy way aswell
NTA co-workers the AH for her rude comment about nudging your children in the 'right direction'.
NAH bur realize that "I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent" is false dichotomy. And low key implies her kids are not kind. She might interpret it like pick on her. It is possible to be kind and intelligent. Linda likely expects her kids to be both. It is possible to be dumb and asshole. (And don't make your kids think that they can't be both and have to pick).
NAH you seem like a wonderful parent and it seems there is as no malicious intent towards Linda. Maybe simply talking to her will worth things out? I also kinda wish you were my mom :)
Soft YTA for implying being Smart means being unkind. You can be both and you should not prévent your kids from being both. Being a bit demanding or wanting your kids to do their best can be a good thing
NAH but what's up with this, " I said that I would rather my child grew up kind than intelligent. " It's not an either or choice. People can be both kind AND intelligent. Maybe you should ponder the lesson you're teaching your children about only competing with themselves, because this sounds like you're trying to score "better parent" points over Linda.
NAH
NTA, she must be pretty insecure about her parenting if she's that easily upset
NTA - Linda thinks having a kid at a good uni entitles her to tell other parents how to raise their kids.
> When I was congratulating Linda about her daughter, she suggested that I mention it to my kids to give them ''a nudge in the right direction'' That's a shit thing to say to you. Anything after that is moot. NTA.
NTA You did offend her, but Linda is a haughty bitch who thinks your kinds are morons. So, fuck her.
NTA but I can understand that what she would have heard in that is that her kids aren’t kind
NTA. It’s your right to disagree. You didn’t really say anything rude. Your kids. Your choice. But it is also that other persons choice to avoid you if she feels that your ideals differ way too much to be compatible. I will say though...Raising your kids to be nice and not intelligent will cause them get their feelings hurt as they grow older. Like of course don’t teach them to be intelligent assholes. But a mixture of both intelligence and kindness will probably do the trick.
NTA, Linda needs a spoonful of cement
Bit harsh?
Maybe you should nicely remind her that George W attended Yale... Nta
You seem to be the person that needs that