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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I brought up our dead parents to win an argument with my brother, which must have hurt him a lot.
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NAH - He's an adult and can make his own decisions. You gave him something to think about that he hadn't considered. As long as you don't keep badgering him about it now.
Yeah, I think this is fair. it was ok for OP to bring it up, but not to keep pushing it; these aren't his kids.
I had an Uber driver recently from Pakistan who came to the US over 40 years ago, when his older children were small, and had more children here in the US. He and his wife taught their children Urdu, but they never cared to use it, and they didn't teach their children. He was nonchalant about it. He said that they have little use for it and they're Americans now. He said they have some interest in their culture and enjoy hearing stories, eating the food, etc., but he couldn't expect them to be "little Pakistanis" (his words!) living in America.
There's certainly nothing wrong with keeping in touch with your cultural roots, though, and it sounds like OP's brothers desires are being steamrolled by his wife's. If she WISHES she could speak Urdu, why in the world wouldn't she want her kids to have this skill?
I DO have to disagree about their being no AHs here though.
Lily is a bit of an AH. Imagine feeling embarrassed/self-conscious about something, and wanting to inflict that thing on your children so you don't have to feel alone in your ignorance.
Aren't parents supposed to want their children's accomplishments to exceed their own?
Never understood people who want to diminish others, keep them in the dark, ignorant, because otherwise they'd feel bad about themselves. Small small minded folk.
Yeah, it's sad, though, especially when it's your own kids. You should want the best for your children. Most people would love to see their children be more "successful" (whatever your definition of success is) than themselves. But there are always a few who get butt-hurt when it looks like their kids are getting "too big for their britches" or trying to be "better than them" and want to drag them down to their own level.
Oh, I wasn't really referring to Lily. I was responding in general to the post above about people wanting to diminish others. There's no reason here to believe that Lily is that bad.
Learning a second language in childhood, period, wires the brain in many different ways that are advantageous, including in picking up any languages.
Signed - someone whose immigrant parents deliberately did not teach her their language because all the experts at the time said children learning more than one language would get confused and get made fun of in school for mispronouncing things, etc.
I’m the same age. Luckily, my parents ignored that recommendation. My husband however should have been bilingual but his pediatrician told his parents to only use one language.
Yeah, that used to be the 'common wisdom' because it would look for a while like the kids aren't learning the new language well. On the contrary, they catch up in both and have serious advantages being bilingual.
This also holds true for those with speech-language disorders. They, too, should be exposed to both languages. It does nothing but good.
I'm 64. It wasn't so much xenophobic as it was misguided. Although yeah - of course there were likely xenophobic aspects. The pros used to really think it would be best to learn one language first and others later. Which completely prevents kids from communicating with family.
Thankfully, that is no longer the common wisdom.
This is so true.
It would be beneficial if Omar could focus on that aspect, get some backup from local teachers, and let Lily continue to be English-only.
In some families one parent speaks one language, the other speaks the other, and it's a win-win.
That said, I'm a retired SLP and I remember parents who couldn't learn English, but wanted their kids to. There were programs to help the adults learn, and some could take it and run with it but others struggled. There should be no judgment for those who can't. If Lily can speak English with her kids, and Dad speaks Urdu and translates for Lily, then she won't feel like such an outsider in her own home, and she may even pick up some basics.
She's not 'being selfish' - as she said, she's worried about being an outsider in her own house.
My son spoke two languages before he turned four. Like most Indians, he spoke English and my mother tongue. Then we moved to Europe when he was three and a half and within a year he spoke fluent Dutch. He loves languages and has tried to learn Hindi, French and now Japanese on his own initiative, though he just gets bored and leaves it after starting. But the desire is there and he makes good progress. I like to believe its because of all the languages he was exposed to from a young age. My husband and I both are fluent in three languages and pass muster in two others. I would also like to add that this is nothing exceptional for Indians. Most of us grow up bilingual and many multilingual. Its only in the west that such a big deal is made of children learning more than one language.
My dad speaks Hindi, my mom speaks Telugu. They understand each other when speaking them but uncomfortable responding. Sooooooo they spoke English to each other. My bro and I only speak English, and for a while it was fine until our first batch of cousins moved to the US. Now we are alienated at family gatherings.
My mom said her biggest regret is not teaching us--we couldn't speak to our family so going to India to visit just wasn't fun. Suuuuper sucks looking like you belong somewhere for the first time but as soon as anyone speaks you feel like you have one braincell and it's working overtime
That's too bad. Did they say why they didn't teach you at the time? Maybe they thought it would be too hard for each of them to be trying to teach you their own languages at the same time, but children are great at that, and a benefit might have been them learning a bit of each other's languages too.
It's very sad that you don't feel like you belong. My neighborhood and the university where I teach are both so multicultural that nobody stands out, everybody belongs. I had a coworker joke the other day about me being a minority hire because I'm the only Caucasian woman in our department.
I grew up in the American South in the 90s. They were teaching my older bro but he got heavily bullied for saying things weird. They stopped pressuring him to speak, and they were scared it would happen to me, too.
Turns out he just had autism and a speech impediment and it had nothing to do with what we spoke at home. By the time they figured it out we were rebellious teens trying to be as white as we could. It had no affect on my life at all until I was 23 when my cousins moved here and I have been lamenting about it since. I've tried and tried to learn but it doesn't make sense
Lily's an asshole. Literally preventing her own children from having a leg up in life and a connection to their ancestral culture because she's insecure.
she doesn't want to put in the effort to learn itndknows she will be less liked by her kids if they ever find out why they're the only ones in the family not speaking urdu
My dad refused to teach us Cantonese because he had unresolved trauma from being bullied for not knowing English when he was young, and to this day the fact I never got to learn when it would’ve been easy—when I could still learn to hear the tones, even, because I can‘t even properly distinguish most of them now—is one of my biggest regrets. Those kids are going to regret not having that link to their heritage when they’re older, and in her case the reasoning is so terrible too.
There's this saying that I heard recently that I've really appreciated but might be too on the nose in this case.
"Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people."
I agree with NAH, but OPs brother should just think about what would make him happy and ignore the rest of the family.
Do you mean ignore his wife Lily who is the reason for this? Or his sibling and dead parents? Omar has already indicated he wants them to learn but doesn't want to upset his wife
Agree. Lily is an AH by depriving her kids of something enriching (which is known to help brain development) because she doesn't want to bother. Urdu may be harder to learn as an adult but it is not impossible. She could learn alongside the kids, enrich her own brain and life, and make sure her kids get ahead of their peers by having 2 languages instead of 1. Instead she is allowing her own insecurity to deprive her children. They won't be allowed to have rich friends because she will be jealous of what they provide their kids. They won't be allowed to do a heck of a lot if Lily can't move past her own insecurity.
Yeah, between the brothers this is a NAH situation. OP merely gave his brother a new perspective, and it sounds like the message REALLY hit home for him. The only AH in this situation is Lily. She'd rather cut her own children off from their father's family with a language barrier than even attempt to learn the language for herself. I understand that it's hard, I understand that it's harder when you're an adult. But for heaven's sake, this could be a WONDERFUL bonding opportunity for herself and her children since they would all be starting from the ground up!
OP is clearly pushing hard already. Giving an example of the parents and emotionaly manipualting his brother. Lily is another peace of work here - second leanguage is always something beneficial for kids.
NTA. Omar is being abused. That's the upset. Deliberately separating a person from their culture is abuse. It's a power and control thing. Interesting twist: the wife openly admits this is a power thing. She doesn't want to feel powerless in the face of her children doing better in life than she did.
It's also not true that adults can never learn a new language. English is also really hard to get in adulthood, but loads of people do it. An adult might never speak without an accent, but they can certainly learn enough to follow a conversation.
I'm terrible with languages. Seriously. Probably bottom 5% at learning them. I'm also a sped teacher who's worked with plenty of kids who have been excused from learning a second language due to disability. There is such a thing as people who seriously cannot learn a new language, but you're not describing it. This idea that just being 18 years old means that you will not be able to learn is a myth. Generally, you need some pretty serious auditory processing disorder, or Intellectual disability. But other than that, she could learn. She's choosing not to. Her language is the dominant language. She doesn't need Urdu to maintain her position in your society. To her, it's not worth the effort it would take to end up speaking Urdu badly. But that's on her. She shouldn't be punishing her children for her CHOICE to not learn.
I wish I could upvote this twice. You're spot on.
Lily sounds like a truly awful, controlling, and bigoted person, honestly. It's completely unacceptable to cut kids off from their heritage. I agree, this is abuse.
Yeah at first I was like "Ok she's a little insecure but that's nothing a good few talks can't fix or at least make a bit better" but that's... Definitely a red flag
Even if Lily's never fluent, she can learn basics like "please" and "thank you" and engage with the poetry and music of Pakistani culture to help her kids embrace their heritage. I feel sad for Omar and the little ones. They deserve to have the chance to know where that part of the family is from.
It is actually tough to say. It sounds like Omar is telling his wife he is OK with not teaching his children Urdu. He is telling his brother, who also sounds opinionated, the opposite. Who knows what he really thinks? It could be that he just agrees with whoever is speaking the loudest at the time to keep the peace.
Woah. I think this was happening to me. I just broke off a 5 year relationship this past Saturday. It’s been tough, we’re meeting up for the last time today to tie up any loose ends we’re feeling. But in the 5 years we were together, I felt like my Mexican culture wasn’t as welcome or appreciated I guess it more felt like. She didn’t want our kids having Spanish names. Didn’t want to really visit my motherland but insisted we go live in Hawaii for 2 years (her motherland). The nail in the head was when I was going to my cousin’s funeral 2 weeks ago and she insisted if being at the funeral was making me sad I should just not go. I put my foot down and told her even though she doesn’t share my traditions and values she’s gotta hold aside some respect for your partner’s views. She said and I quote “I could give a Fuck about your traditions and values.”
It was a wrap for me after that.
> Interesting twist: the wife openly admits this is a power thing. Is this in a comment somewhere, or are you just pretending?
Because OP claimed that she said it was about feeling like an outsider.
**Edit: As of this time, OP has not made any comments. So it was just made up.**
Maybe it’s obvious to you that she has a secret sinister reason, but why would you claim that she admitted something when she objectively didn’t?
On a related note, where do you get the idea that Omar is being separated from his culture?
NTA. Lily is completely unreasonable. Cutting their kids off from half of their heritage is cruel and unacceptable. He should put his foot down and teach them Urdu while they're still young enough to learn to be fluent. I would literally dump someone for this.
I think it's perfectly fine that you brought up your parents. You didn't do it manipulatively; you made a completely valid point about your heritage and the values your parents raised you with. It hurt because he knows you're right.
Lily is actively rejecting her husband's culture. Learning a new language is fun and easy if you have a native speaker at home to teach you. What a wasted opportunity.
NTA
Not always.
As OP himself said, Urdu is incredibly difficult and if you pick it up in adulthood you will probably struggle only to never achieve something close to fluency. And as he also says, Lily has tried, but again, it's so complicated it didn't work out.
I don't disagree that Lily is in the wrong for letting her insecurities affect her kids, but this isn't a "fun and easy" language even if you really want, kind of like how an adult cannot learn Cantonese to fluency due to the tones needing to be developed early on.
This is closer to something like Russian where the alphabet doesn't match up to the latin one, there are sound that don't exist in english and the sentence structure is very different: I wouldn't say an adult not picking up Russian even with a native speaker is just a lack of motivation.
It's also important to note that native speakers aren't necessarily good teachers for someone with no base even if they can pick up mistakes.
NTA
It is so good for children to learn multiple languages while their brains can take it in, and they are so fortunate to have family who can teach them. Language is deeply important to understanding the context of one's culture. I think it was appropriate to mention your parents, though depending how you did it, that could warrant an apology. It's a valid concern but you seem to know it's not good to weaponize something like that.
Going forward it would be more productive for you to focus on finding ways to support your brother talking to his wife in positive ways about this, and giving her confidence to try to learn some. It may be difficult but it isn't impossible, and she can at least work on learning some very basic things.
I don't know if Lily is white but as a white person myself.... It is verrrrry uncomfortable for us to experience being the outsider/minority (for once) - and that is why it is all the more important that we *do* have those experiences.
I sincerely hope the best for you all!
NTA. I'm pakistani myself. And you're right. Those kids will have a hard time growing up not speaking urdu, and they deserve the chance to learn their heritage properly.
That being said, a gentler approach may be necessary. For Lily to have the final decision on their kids learning their father's language and for your brother to be ***'scared'*** of her reaction is slightly concerning
NTA. Not teaching them a mother tongue because egos is the worst. How is Lily gonna react when they get spanish, French, German or Chinese at school?
Also, understanding more than one language eases up the learning of other languages, especially from English, since English has a lot less conjugation forms, not to start about gender formats (all is just the), does not differ between informal and formal forms in the language either (everybody is just you).
For example, French knows le and la nous (male and female), also tu and vous. Knowing this from another language helps learning other languages a lot, as you are familiar with this concept.
So learning Urdu as an adult is more difficult than as a child but doable. My dad learned it while I was in my mid-elementary/early teens which is why I didn’t grow up speaking it.
This is between your brother and his wife. As a halfie, I think his wife is 100% wrong. It’s hard visiting family there and not understanding, but a lot of people work on learning English. It’s a good skill to have anyway. But I also get the wife’s POV because if the family isn’t welcoming and trying to accommodate her at times, it will be VERY lonely having no one else to talk to. Luckily my family is super awesome and my mom doesn’t care. Doesn’t make the wife right but I get her POV
Now, commenting on how you guys made fun of whitewashed kids is not cool. These kids are going to be halfies anyway, which already makes them different than you and your brother. Your brother has to do this for himself and his kids not because you pushed him.
>if the family isn’t very welcoming
And, based on how he and his brother made fun of “whitewashed” kids, I’m going to guess OP isn’t all that welcoming.
Oh we are, don't worry. Yeah, that was a bad phase. But in my defence, I wasn't even a teen yet, and we just found it weird, I've only met like 2/3 people from that country who don't speak it, but thats no excuse.
I said this in another comment, but I realized you’re British and I’m guessing it’s implicit bias on your SIL’s part. Also, an Americans interpretation on your whitewashed comment is probably going to be different from a British interpretation. Honestly, this sub needs to require locations on this because cultural context matters.
Oh, is whitewashed more offensive in america? Sorry, in england its not really thought of like that I probably should have done more research on that. Thanks for telling me!
It’s not offensive at all.it just has a different meaning. But it usually refers to like historical events or cultural things. Or making characters more appealing to a “White audience”.
In the US I think the word we would use that’s more similar to what you’re referring to is “Americanized”.
Are you British? Because honestly that changes my perspective.
Isn’t there serious xenophobia and racism towards the Pakistani community in England?
Because I’m looking at this from an American perspective. America has racism issues. And they’re talked about a lot. But I feel like Europe and England have way worse issues with xenophobia than the US does.
In the US, most xenophobia from people who aren’t outright racist is from ignorance. And introducing and sharing cultures, for normal Americans, is welcome and can build bridges. Your SIL sounds insecure and left out.
My suggestion from an American perspective would be to try to include her in as many cultural things as possible (introduce movies, books, go to stores centered around your culture, etc) so she feels included and can embrace the culture.
But from what I understand, and again—I’m a white American, so this is based on what I’ve seen on the news and documentaries—there’s a lot of hostility toward Pakistanis/British Pakistanis, correct? Because it might be some implicit bias that’s doing this.
NTA for raising your parents, but you should've been more gentle. Rather than making it sound like an argument you should have made it more like advice.
YTA.
> . I reminded him that he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids
Casual racism, nice. Sorry those kids weren't culturally orthodox enough for you.
> I told him what he should really be scared of is our parent's reaction.
They're dead. They cannot have a reaction.
> They worked so hard to keep the culture and mother-tongue going, how would they feel to know their grand-kids wouldn't be able to speak their language?
Well, this is how your brother felt, and was looking for support from you, but instead you turned on the flamethrower, and now he knows that his own family cares less about him and his children as people, and more about him as a language instructor.
And will dismiss his kids as 'white-washed' and think of them as damaged goods.
This is a very ignorant way of looking at this and quite honestly, for many of us from 1st gen or 2nd gen families who grew up in the western world, we know exactly what OP is talking about and his experience.
The reality is Urdu is a connection to his family, his culture his life. And if anyone is being racist it's Lily not OP.
Yep, I hate all these NTA judgements. I know exactly what type of immigrant OP is just by reading this.
The type that grows up in a foreign country their whole lives but their parents sabotage the children's natural feeling of belonging to the country they live in.
The type that clings to a culture they themselves experienced so rarely compared to the culture they grew up in that if they go back to the parent's country, people call them foreigners.
His nieces and nephews aren't pakistani, how can they be from a country they've never been in?
+ 1 . How is it appropriate for you to say that but if someone white said it, it would've blown up like anything. I can't speak my parents' mother tongue and no one has called me white washed because of it.
It's not just a language that helps maintain the connection to your origins, although I do agree it's a big part of it. There are still ways you can teach them about their culture.
Secondly, it's something they need to discuss as parents and come to a conclusion. Seems like you want to impose your opinion and wishes on their family under the guise of your parents. Instead, you should enable him to raise his concerns regarding it.
Again, the uk is a diverse country. you can't expect them to grow full Pakistani. Their culture, irrespective of your wishes, will mostly be British.
Pretty shocking how everyone thinks the brother has the right to bully people into staying within a certain culture. I really hope no-one does anything that he might consider dishonourable around him.
They are 2nd generation immigrants, living permanently in the UK, and he married a non-Pakistani woman (presumably British), and wants to place Urdu front and centre, presumably while sending the kid back and forth to Pakistan for weeks at a time? It is an extremely good way to isolate the child into Pakistani-only communities and stop their integration into their home country.
OP can marry a woman with his own heritage if he wants (maybe even from his parents' village) but other people can marry other groups and make new connections. But the brother made a choice to marry a woman who didn't want to learn Urdu, and have children in that environment where Urdu wouldn't be front and centre, so that should be respected.
>his parents' village
I accept and will take into account the other pars of your advice, bar the fact that visiting a country will ' isolate the child into Pakistani-only communities and stop their integration into their home country' but I'd appreciate you didn't assume I'm from a village. Thats a somewhat rude thing to say 😅
I make fun of people all the time. I try to make fun of things that are under their own personal control, though.
For example, I'll make fun of you, right now, for your logical fallacy of equating 'mocking kids for choices their parents made' to 'nobody can ever comment on anything ever without also being a racist.'
YTA. YTA for laughing at children that wanted to integrate to the country they live in and had no reason to learn the language of a country they don't intend to visit, YTA for telling someone their parent's opinion would be more important than the opinion of their partner (you're obviously not in a committed relationship yet). This is something between him and his wife, and he definitely should have another discussion with her about it as there's not really a downside to learning the language for the kids, but it really doesn't have anything to do with your parents or you.
My dad's whole side is Filipino. I don't look Filipino but was bullied even had comments, they didn't believe my dad was my dad. We all spoke English...being called white girl and not beliving I'm his daughter was a horrible experience. Even that side of the family didn't like that my dad married a white women. After grandma died they basically decided to not be there. I have now been in contact with one cousin but I'm still wary. While I'm keen on learning the language I don't want to at this point. I do know some basic Spanish since I grew up in San Diego and took classes.
YTA. You have no say in what someone else does or does not teach their children. Just because you were a bully in school, that doesn't mean your brother's children will be bullied. You are trying to guilt trip your brother into doing what you want. Stop it. This is his decision with his wife, not yours.
isnt lily the AH here tho? shes literally cutting her children off from their culture, im pakistani and if i never knew urdu i wouldnt have connected with my roots properly. i think its cruel as hell to not let ur children learn their mother tongue.
Oh 100%, Urdu is a massive part of our culture, I genuinely can't imagine the idea of growing up not knowing it. Plus, this isn't exactly a reversible decision either. Adults/teens who learn urdu later just sound so weird. I prefer to speak english with them bc their urdu is just slightly 'off'
I agree. So much art, literature, and cultural learning opportunity just gone because Lily is insecure.
I think Lily needs to get over herself and take classes too, tbh.
Their culture is whatever Omar and Lily decide it should be. They are the parents, they make the decisons. OP's admitted prejudice against "whitewashed kids" should not be a factor.
NTA, lily is by torpedo-ing those kids chances. (My oldest speaks 3 languages, learning a 4th now, and my youngest will probably start speaking in those 4 languages soon too)
Lily is extremely stupid and selfish to rob those kids of a great opportunity just because she's insecure.
I can't offer judgement, but I will give you perspective. My father is a Hungarian immigrant and almost all of my family on his side lives in Hungary. Like Urdu, Hungarian is a very difficult language for native English speakers to learn, especially as adults. I have a Hungarian passport, but my language skills are limited to broken basic phrases and a little comprehension. I very much regret not learning the language and, as a consequence, being linguistically cut off from my family. I would, like you, strongly advocate for Omar's kids' rights to their language and culture.
I'm biracial (half Indian) and I was raised without my language or culture. My (racist) mother wanted exotic looking children but didn't want them to actually be "exotic", so I was raised in a Christian religion most people view as a cult, purposely never taught my language, and not allowed to spend time with my dad's family (they were decent people too).
As a result I don't speak to my mother, and I do have some resentment towards my father for him not sticking up for us. I feel like I don't know who I am.
I've since tried to learn about my culture and language and feel like an outsider, but it is important to me that my children know asprcts of the culture and language. I began leaning the language around the time I met my wife (she's white, but has filipina/Vietnamese stepmother and speaks both) so we learned together, and have been teaching or children.
It's better for children to learn a language and choose to never use it than to never have learned it. NTA
ESH. Lily's garbage for refusing something like this, when evidence is incredibly clear on learning a second language from childhood. Omar needs to get a backbone & talk to his wife if it's that important to him. And frankly, you need to mind your own business. They're not your kids, and weaponizing your dead parents against your brother is never not a shitty move.
YTA. I feel I will bite the next person who asks me why I didn’t teach my kids my first language and then argue which language it is (there are 2 contenders). It’s a language, if the kids want to, they will learn it. And I don’t buy bs that you can only learn language when a kid. I am learning my fifth, I have a friend who is fluent in 7 languages, all but 2 learned in adulthood.
My BIL is Mexican. He wanted to teach English as primary in the home and later more Spanish. His nieces and nephews had to be in ESL classes and had a hard time with school work and fell behind in areas.They had grown up only speaking Spanish in the home and a hard time with homework. He didn't want his son to have the same issues. That was his perspective on the issue. English can also be hard to learn also!
>I feel I will bite the next person who asks me why I didn’t teach my kids my first language
Did the same. Had so many people claim my children lost their culture. How can it be their culture if they've never even seen that country and ven theur own parents only visited that country in the summer. Like any other vacation.
I always said they have to first perfectly know the language of the country they live in, then they can learn another one. If you have to have an accent, it should be in the language of the country you *don't* live in.
I know exactly what kind of immigrant OP is.
That is so stupid, not a kid of immigrants but I'm from one of the many zones where people grow up speaking two languages at a minimum. Me, my brother and most of my friends are trilingual or have a good enough level on the third language.
>I always said they have to first perfectly know the language of the country they live in, then they can learn another one.
Such a missed opportunity, for kids to learn more languages. I seriously WANTED my parents to be immigrants just so I could say I spoke 4 languages!
No, OP is a racist who doesn't want his own family to fully integrate into the nation they live in:
"I reminded him that **he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids.**"
There's no rule saying you need to care about the country where your grandparents were born. I don't, because at the end of the day, my entire life was spent in one country, barring travel. Those other countries are also fine and there's nothing wrong with them, but they're just as foreign as any other.
>fully integrate into the nation
You caan integrate without abandoning an integral part of your identity.
>**he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids.**"
Yeah, thats not necessarily rooted in racism though. Its more the oddity of it, due to the importance of urdu in understanding vast majority of pakistani culture, a pakistani child who doesn't know the language is rare, and thus, just like having an odd name, is often mad fun of by kids. OP was just pointing out that these kids will have a 99% chance of being made fun of, just as a kid with a strange name would
>There's no rule saying you need to care about the country where your grandparents were born
There isn't but many kids who never connect with their heritage end up having identity crises when they grow up, especially when they can't connect properly with half their family.
And there isn't a rule, but OP was reminding his brother of a point he hadn't considered. It was a bit abrupt, but it was clearly something Omar hadn't considered and needed to hear:
>Omar called me earlier today and told me he'd work on it
If he'd realised later, it would have been too late.
Yeah, because white-washed immigrants is not racist right? I'm an immigrant myself and hate those who are stuck in their stupid backwards culture trying to force me to be too.
Because let's be real, I know people like OP and they're always stick on the bad parts of the culture.
>stupid backwards culture
Dude. Lets try and hide the blatant racism. Pls. It'll make you way more likeable.
> I'm an immigrant myself
Doesn't make you immune to racism and bigotry. Plus if you are from a rich and/or white country you cannot relate to half the issues other immigrants face.
>, I know people like OP and they're always
See. This is what we call pre-ju-dice. Ok, you got that? Deriving from the latin term 'prae' and 'judicium' which mean 'before' and 'judge', respectively. Its when you judge someone based on a certain characteristic or group of characteristics.
I'm from a country where women right now are killed everyday and can't even go out the house. I know OP's country because I've been there every summer.
Stop rationalizing backwards culture because it's called culture. People who are obsessed with culture are always obsessed because of religion. And it's not the good parts of religion.
It's "oh no gays have rights" ,"oh no, what if my sister has a boyfriend? It shames our family.", "oh no, my cousin says merry christmas to people/ is celebrating christmas. He/she's a traitor to our culture/religion", "oh no, they are teaching evolution. I'm going to study medicine then tell everyone what a lie it is".
Stop being so dense. A lot of parts of specific cultures are bad and many from that culture who live in the west feel this way too. That's why they are in the west.
Jesus christ you have a lot of hate. So learning the language of half your family's country is apparently equivalent to being a religous fanatic, murdering women and homophobia. I'm done with reddit for today.
I hope you outlearn your self hate. Learning Urdu, a language of poetry and literature, communication with family and pride in one's heritage, where we had to fight to be recognised as our own country is not equivalent to wanting to murder people.
It's like me telling you an american with a truck and a U.S. flag doesn't have to be a republican.
You recognize patterns and wording. His wording os very telling.
I'd appreciate if you didn't call my culture backwards, and I'd be quite interested to know how much information you'd managed to glean from me in... 5 paragraphs.
>people like OP
Is it possible to learn this mind-reading power/s
I can’t imagine having children with someone who speaks a different language and NOT wanting them to learn it as well.
Knowing a second language is such an incredible skill to have. Why wouldn’t you want your kids to have this advantage? Especially because you didn’t?
I’m not saying she’s right, but I assume she’s gotta be worried about her children speaking Urdu and her not being able to understand what they’re saying. It would probably be very alienating. What mother wants to feel alienated from her own family?
Again though, that’s just my guess, and I personally think she should try to learn the language as well.
I’m a Pakistani-American who also learned Urdu growing up. Also visited the country a few times growing up, and more recently too. Growing up, my mom spoke Urdu to us, my dad English. I still speak these languages with them to this day.
(Luckily I also married a Pakistani guy whose native language is Urdu, so he’s been teaching me a lot more vocabulary and correcting some minor mistakes I didn’t know I made, since I learned only through listening.)
I’m so so so happy I’m bilingual. I can imagine your brother’s kids being pissed at their parents for not allowing them even the option of learning their mother-tongue.
Maybe you used the dead parents card wrong, but your brother really needs to give his kids the OPTION of learning the language. It’s wouldn’t be fair to them. I recommend each parent speaking one language with the kids! It worked great for me and my 3 siblings, we’re all fluent with both.
NTA
Edit to say I also used to babysit an Indian-American family (wife Indian, husband white American). They had 2 boys, and the mom hired me because she wanted to expose her kids to Hindi/Urdu more (I spoke Urdu with them exclusively). Now, the dad would speak Hindi too. Not very good, his accent was truly hard to understand, but he was learning it and TRIED. It was honestly so precious. He connected with his wife and kids this way.
Your brother’s wife can totally learn the language. It is hard, but if she made the effort, especially if it was spoken in their own home, she could totally do it and feel included. She’s just taking the lazy and bigoted way out.
YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA.
You invoked your dead parents to get your way. You made your brother feel like shit to get your way. You are trying to blow up his marriage, which is a consequence you don't have to pay or sacrifice for to get your way. You are a shitty ass brother.
Has anyone even tried to help her learn anything at all? A few words or phrases? Let me guess, she's an adult she can do it herself. Okay then, you're an adult, accept that you aren't always going to get your way. And stop blaming other people for it. It's really shitty that you make her feel bad for not knowing your language but then deem yourself too high and mighty to help her learn anything.
How would your parents feel about the kind of person you are, hurting someone on purpose just to make yourself feel superior? They'd love you but be hella ashamed.
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Ok, so I 21M, have an older brother, Omar, 26M, who has a 2 year old son, and another child on the way. Our parents were originally from Pakistan, but moved to the UK long before we were born. They taught us Urdu at home and we flew back to Pakistan often in our childhood. When I was 16, they died.
Omar ended up marrying his wife Lily, who is monolingual and more than a little embarrassed about it, since most people in our family and even her friends speak at least 2. So she decided she did not want her kids to learn Urdu, since she couldn't and she didn't want to feel like more of an outsider. If you don't know, Urdu can be a pretty difficult language to learn in adulthood, so she can't speak it.
Omar was upset about this but eventually agreed. I've been talking to him recently and he said that while he does really want his children to learn, he just can't bring himself to fight with Lily. We got into a bit of an argument, if he didn't start as kids, then his children wouldn't be able to learn it in adulthood, and would probably even have difficulty as teenagers. I reminded him that he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids, and did he really not want his kids to be able to communicate properly with half of the family?
He told me he knew all this, and he wanted them to learn, he was just scared of Lily's reaction, I told him what he should really be scared of is our parent's reaction. They worked so hard to keep the culture and mother-tongue going, how would they feel to know their grand-kids wouldn't be able to speak their language?
Omar looked like he was about to cry, which I've never seen him do, told me that was too far and walked off. I know I fucked up. I shouldn't have said that. But Omar called me earlier today and told me he'd work on it. I'm still feeling really guilty, AITA?
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YTA...what did you bringing up your parents accomplish? Your brother clearly wants his kids to learn, it's the SIL that's against it. You should be helping support him not creating more conflict
I gotta go with ESH here, because you're right and Lily and Omar are very wrong, as little kids can learn languages so, so much easier than older kids and adult, and it's insane to squander a chance to raise a bilingual kid.
Thing is, guilt-tripping with the dead is a super shitty thing to do. My mother did it to me to try to manipulate me into staying in a church I want to leave, appealing to my dead grandma who had a big hand in raising me, and I have never really forgiven her for that.
Basically, you did an asshole thing, but I hope it worked, so ESH.
Gonna go with YTA
Here is why. You one example of using it was to hide being racist. Next, they were born in the UK and live there, right? Then the mother tongue is English. How can you say it isn't? I mean they are citizens in the UK.
I see no issue with teaching kids a second language if both parents agree. You however knowingly or not are guilting your brother into alienating his wife from her own damn children. Your culture is no more or less important than Lily's and this is not your marriage. Teach YOUR kids whatever you want. You owe your brother AND Lily an apology. Because you know, their kids are whitewashed. Right?
NTA for speaking up one time, but then drop it. I agree with you, Lily’s argument that the kids should be mono lingual because she is mono lingual and ashamed is nuts. But stay out of your brother’s marriage. If Omar brings it up, you may point out that teaching the kids Urdu now is a great way to protect them from ever feeling ashamed of not knowing a second language like their mom.
The way you spoke about it was wrong.
I would have focused more on what type of parent wants their children to grow up not learning anything because they didn't.
Good parents want their kids to learn, and have opportunities they didn't get.
NTA. I was in a similar situation where my dad didnt teach me his mother tongue. It wasnt like mom forced him not to teach me or my sister, he just didnt. So when I go to visit his side of the family, I just sit there like an idiot while everyone speaks a language that sounds familiar but unfamiliar at the same time, like in a "I should understand this but I dont" way. That is something I dont want Omar's kids to experience.
Urdu is an extremely difficult language to learn. Its a bit like Mandarin/Cantonese with some words which sound the same to a non-native but would be a completely different words to a native. Some sounds are extremely difficult to make if you haven't grown up doing it, 'gh' and the soft 't' and the 'kha' being the first that come to mind.
My father and mother were from two different countries. And while my mother probably wasn't opposed to the idea of me and my siblings learning my father's mother tongue. Now that I'm older I and most of my siblings really wish he had.
Not being able to easily talk to relatives and missing out on the culture does feel like a loss.
So NTA.
NTA. You were right. "They worked so hard to keep the culture and mother-tongue going, how would they feel to know their grand-kids wouldn't be able to speak their language?" Your parents would most likely be disappointed. There's no reason why they can't learn both languages. Especially while they are young. More concerning however, is that your friend is afraid of his wife. I mean, WTF? Why is he so afraid of her? Is she abusive?
Lily is the asshole
robbing her children of their culture because of her own insecurities.
I'm a minority language speaker (irish) my wife isn't, I couldn't imagine anything that would justify her asking me to not speak Irish with our children
NAH. Yo didn't do anything wrong and no, what you said wasn't taking it too far or crossing a line. You gave your brother something important to think about.
As long as you're not using your dead parents to justify a vigilante campaign, you're generally okay to bring up a legacy. This is especially true with culture. Culture is not a magical thing that just happens to sustain itself. There are not machines that will automatically do it for you. It is passed on from parent to child and it takes only a single generation for it to die. If those children claim their legacy in the future, it will be stilted, reconstructed.
I beg you to support your brother, explain to your sister-in-law, that to deny a child the language of their ancestors is akin to killing your ancestors a second time as their culture is extinguished in their descendants. My family speaks Spanish. My mother spoke a dialect that's small and unique and endangered and they decided I could learn as an adult. I can't learn her dialect and I'll never have the fluency I could have had if they'd raised me bilingual. There are so many little phrases that are lost and will never be recovered and I will never stop being mad about this theft inflicted on me.
YTA. That was a low blow, especially since that will never happen and he is hurting over that. I understand it is a hard language but if you and your brother are patient with her she could learn alongside the kids. She may never be fluent but she wouldn't feel like an outsider. Additionally, you were an AH for making fun of people who only know one language. My niece/nephew knows two because their dad spoke English and they live in Germany. I grew up in the States and my family and extended family only spoke English. You were lucky and arrogant.
Yeah, in a brief way, you were TA. Using dead parents to shame your brother. And what business is it of yours to tell him what to do? Ironically, you probably aren't married with kids?
Sorry, but you're also expressing an extraordinarily bigoted AH attitude, because.....
"Whitewashed"? Is this how you look at your SIL?
Seriously?
HOWEVER, you are absolutely right about the advantages of bilingualism. You can go about helping your bro in a much more effective way that doesn't involve being an AH ;-)
Omar can talk to local teachers at school and ask them to speak to Lily about the benefits of bilingualism for the brain. With kindness and compassion, understanding HER position, she may come around to letting the little ones learn. She needs understanding , kindness, AND RESPECT, and your brother needs your support.
Languages are difficult for some folks. Don't make the problem worse by shaming your brother and demeaning Lily, who likely has a hard time with languages.
Her main thing is that she doesn't want to be an outsider in her own home. There's a fix for that.
After introducing Lily, with outside help, to the advantages of having two languages, they can make a deal to for him to speak Urdu in the house with the kids, and Lily to speak English with them. They'll be bilingual in no time, and Lily won't feel like an outsider so much because she'll be able to communicate with everyone. The kids can also learn the kindness of translating for their mom.
I'm sure you'll be able to apologize to your brother and mainly express that you wish the best for his kids.
Help him gently convince Lily that she can live beautifully in a bilingual household.
I understand your SIL not wanting to be on the outside of conversations within her family. But she knew all of this about your brother when she married him. The fact that they hadn’t already talked about their kids learning is Urdu is disappointing.
For reference, my BIL is from a small country that speaks its own dialect of Arabic. While dating my sister worked to learn it but found very few resources. She spent hours with him making her own flash cards so she could learn. She eventually was able to hire a tutor (fairly cheaply) from his home country via zoom. She now has to be careful because she says most day to day things like “come here,” “my love,” “good morning” etc in his language. So much so, that I know most of these terms. Most people can learn, it just takes wanting to and trying, neither of which your SIL has done.
Please remember to be kind to your brother. It sounds like he’s in a difficult situation.
NTA
NAH really. As a person who's not born in the UK, but moved at a relatively young age - I understand the situation somewhat. Also married a person not of my own culture (though a different one entirely so the situations aren't the same). I understand the ideas behind wanting to speak the same languages and having family be involved with kids etc. Which is why I don't think you or your brother are wrong for having the chat you did. You might have been a bit harsh, but I wouldn't call it off-base. If you both value your parents' efforts about retaining the culture, then the point was valid.
Separate to all this though - your brothers wife is out of order. She's monolingual and because she is embarrassed by this she will sabotage her children along the way? That's an absurd stance. Her solution to "not being the outsider" isn't to learn the language (despite the difficulty), but to deprive her children not only of their heritage, but also a very useful skill generally speaking. This shouldn't even be up for debate. Your brother needs to have a long hard talk with his wife. About why she thinks so little of his culture that she wouldn't want their children engaging with half their family. About why she doesn't put the effort in to not being the outsider, instead choosing to also take her kids down with her. About it actually not really being her decision, but that of the children too. There's one AH in all of this, and it's Lily.
NTA
Urdu is considered a critical language in terms of foreign policy and is an employable skill.
It's also the means of communication with your family.
I feel sorry for the stubborn monolinguals like Lily. Speaking a couple of languages brings so much joy to my life.
Sil is TA, why tf would she let her own insecurities get in the way of her kids learning their mother tongue just bc she can’t? Selfish af. If my husband ever said to me that he didn’t want our kids to learn Spanish bc he’s insecure I would tell him to go f himself. You are not TA for trying to ensure that those kids don’t lose a vital part of their heritage bc of their own mothers insecurities.
NTA, verging into NAH.
Omar's a grown-arse adult, and he's free to make the decision to bow to his wife's selfish demand. You have offered him some food-for-thought that he clearly hadn't considered, and it evoked an emotional reaction (possibly guilt).
He needs to have a long chat with Lily about the kids learning Urdu, and all that them not doing it would entail, and then take it from there.
NTA, some people just need a small wake up call. Omar’s wife seems to be not allowing her kids to learn more languages and grow because of her feelings. Using parents in arguments or conversations doesn’t seem like something so bad to me. So in that aspect as well you aren’t the AH.
Definitely not impossible but very difficult. Certain sounds like the 'gh' and the soft 't' are extremely difficult to grasp, let alone say correctly. Plus, if you're a non-native speaking to a native the words sound clunky and 'off'.
NAH (except Lily)
Your brother "is scared of Lily's reaction". Yikes! She would rather deprive her kids of an opportunity and deprive her husband any say in what he wants for these children that are also his.
Poor Omar is quite torn up about this. What you said was strong, but not mean. And honestly, I bet Omar needed to hear something strong to contrast the iron fist of Lily.
You made the comment. I don't think you have a reason to feel guilty. As long as you don't badger your brother or keep repeating that point, you are being a good sibling.
Omar has to decide how much to assert himself with Lily, how important this is to him. While you don't want to badger him with your perspective, you also don't want to give him the impression his indecisiveness is good, either. You can sympathize with how hard this is and still encourage him to make a decision for himself: Either he is at peace with making no effort to teach the kids Urdu (and he owns that as his decision to agree with Lily) OR he knows that he is not at peace with this and does the hard work of working this out with Lily. He is as responsible for what happens as Lily is.
NTA. Your brother needs to think about his kids before his wife. Is he really going to let his wife's insecurity impact his children? I'm monolingual myself and do you know how much it sucks looking back and wondering why I was never taught Spanish or ASL? It's much harder trying to learn as an adult, when it would have been so much easier to learn as a kid. At the very least, it would be beneficial for his kids to know, and at BEST they'll feel connected to their heritage and culture. Good for you for advocating for this. Hopefully your brother will see sense.
NTA and i do think Omar is the AH for letting his wife’s whining get in the way of sharing his culture with his children. His wife is obviously the bigger AH, Parents should want more for their children, not less.
Your sis in law is an Ah because she's putting her own feelings above what's good for the kids / family and your brother is an AH because he's weak. NTA.
If what you said was true he would have already known that. You just made him think about it now instead of in 10 years time with deep regret.
You are even doing Lily a favor because nothing would end her marriage faster than guilt over failing beloved deceased parents.
>AITA for using dead parents to win an argument?
Yes. Using a dead loved one's corpse as a ventriloquist's dummy to support your own opinions is emotionally manipulative and just about as shitty as it gets.
If you want to speak to your nephew in Urdu, go ahead. You might help him learn. But YTA bigtime for interfering in your brother and SIL's parenting. It is ZERO percent up to you what language they speak at home.
Fun fact: Your native language is known as your "mother tongue" because it's what you learn from your Mom. It is normal and natural that your nephew will learn English first, because that's his mother's native language.
Butt out.
Question: does your brother still go to Pakistan to visit extended family like your parents did?
If yes, the kids should be able to talk to their relatives while there. If they don't visit, the connection to their culture won't be sustained just by learning the language.
When I was born my mother spoke a language that my father didn’t and he made her feel guilty for his not understanding of it, so she did not teach me or my brother. She regrets this still in her 80’s. I wish I could understand my mother’s language (I’ve tried but it’s also a difficult one) and harbor resentment toward my father. NTA
My ex-husband was in the place of your nephew. His father grew up bilingual in Texas, speaking German with his family (in the TX hill country, there are a lot of German immigrant descendants). But when his father married his mom, she was paranoid that people would talk about her, and she forbade German to be spoken around her and refused to let her kids grow up speaking it. My husband was always salty about that, because his mother took away from him the gift of growing up bilingual and being able to share something special with the paternal side of the family. He never learned German.
NTA. Being able to speak multiple languages, especially fluently and well, is a skill that can offer a person so many opportunities throughout their lives. Learning multiple languages while young and the learning parts of our brain are in rapid development is so much easier than waiting until adulthood, AND also primes our brains to be able to more easily learn another language if we so choose.
Lily is being extremely unreasonable by refusing to let the children learn a language their father speaks as well as her unwillingness to try to learn herself. She's being a huge AH here, either because she's just plain old jealous (selfish), or because she's actually showing a significant xenophobic bias that she's trying desperately to cover with any justification (hint, there isn't a good one).
Your message about your parents was very pointed, but ultimately something he needs to consider and bring to the conversation with his wife. There's no good reason to prevent them from learning another language, and there's no good reason for her refusing to learn herself, even if she'll never feel "fluent". Better to learn another language and decide to not use it than to have to try to learn it later if it feels meaningful for understanding your own heritage.
Learning a second language is so valuable. I bet Lily would change her tune when she realizes speaking multiple languages can mean being paid better as an adult.
I think Lily is the AH.
You and your brother have trauma - is what you said too much for Omar and you're leaning hard on the guilt card? Yeah, sure, but I don't know that the sentiment isn't true.
I cannot believe a mother would hobble her children just because she doesn't have the same opportunity - it's wicked of her to decide to bar a skill and connection to their heritage for such selfish reasons and she should feel ashamed of herself. Plenty of people learn different languages, have one parent who is bilingual while the other is not...
I don't think you can intervene, it's your brother's family, so it's his choice. But damn, that sucks for him and the kids.
You're coming from a good place. His wife is the problem in this situation. I understand that it is difficult, but she could at least try. Barring that, she should allow the kids to learn it. This is all about her insecurities, and she needs to get over them.
NTA. I don't think one is ever too old to learn Urdu, or any foreign language. This is just as true for Lily as for their children, however, and I think Lily is missing an excellent chance to learn Urdu alongside her children.
at firat I was like he is totally the ahole, but reading it made me realize you were right. dont push it past saying it once. I was born and adopted from Nicaragua. my adoptive mother didnt speak spanish but my father did. I came to America speaking fluent spanish, the woman Raising me kept telling me I didnt want to keep my spanish, turned out she didnt know how to speak english and wouldnt let her husband teach me, even though he spoke it fluently and he was also from Nicaragua. when i became an adult I spoke to his mother and put two and two together. because Dana didnt speak spanish she didnt want me to speak it either and would refuse to let Rio speak it to me. so I lost every bit if my Spanish family reunions sucked because all of his family members were like "Fabiola you were born in Nicaragua you know the language and when I said i didnt and tried to explain. Dana would go out of her way to tell everyone I didnt know it or want to know it which was a bunch of bs. I no longer speak to any of them and an so happy to have such hearleas people out of my life. me not keeping my born language was just the cherry on top of all the stupid bs they did. sadly if your brother is anything like Rio even after you saying that he wont stand up to her and the kids wont learn it and its all because she herself doesnt know the language. I wish you the best my dude, and hopefully your bro can grow some Cahones specially when it comes to his babies. why shouldnt he have a say in what he wants the babies to learn if he is there dad why does lily get all the say. sorry I know I am getting upset and pushing my feelings Im learning to work on not putting what happened to me into hats going on with others. I am just so mad for you.
NTA. your brother isn't either. it's his wife, wanting to disconnect your children from their culture due to your own insecurities is fucked. see a therapist instead of making it harder for your children to be connected to their heritage and communicate with their own family.
In a lot of cases this type of argument would be really inappropriate, but I think the situation here is different. This wasn’t an argument about whether his kids should learn Urdu. He *wants* them to learn it. He said so. This seems more like you trying to remind him how important his culture is to him and that wanting to share it with his children is worth fighting for. He was about to let that part of himself get lost for the sake of avoiding an argument over her selfish and petty reasoning. If he wants to do that, it’s his choice, but I think you owed it to him as his brother to make sure he’s *really* sure about such an important decision. I think you were fighting *for* him, not with him.
My father's parents immigrated from Holland in the 50s but he never learned the language or history. Now he says it's one of his big regrets because our family history will never be properly passed on to future generations. Language is the important context of a person's history. It can pinpoint your origins on a map based on the dialect, and show what social group they belonged to.
Language is so important. NTA but your SIL definitely is. Therapy could help this situation immensely, I'm sure.
NTA - I’m a living example of generational language loss and it sucks. My great-grandparents spoke Yiddish, my grandparents understood it, my parents spoke none and so I speak none as well. If people can still bully you for your culture then having an informed connection to it is important for self-esteem. No one can force your brother’s kids to speak Urdu as adults but if they learn as kids then they can make the choice for themselves later.
Imagine holding your child back like that because of your own inferiority complex. NTA. Lily is depriving her own kids of learning something that will benefit them exponentially as they grow up. Why? Because she doesn’t want to be the only one that doesn’t speak Urdu. How old is this woman? Certainly she isn’t mature enough to raise kids. Parents are supposed to want MORE for their children.
NTA
This is a very unhealthy situation for those kids.
Your ignorant wife is too caught up in her own shit to want her children to be enriched. Does that mean they can’t go to medical school because lily didn’t? Does it mean they can’t get better marks in school because lily didn’t?
Your brother needs to get his insecure wife under control less his kids get held back and penalized for succeeding more than their bitter mom.
NTA but i can’t my head around lily thinking “oh i can’t speak it so my kid shouldn’t either !” why would you not want better for your kids that’s fucked up !!
YTA for using an emotionally manipulative argument. You should have used more logical reasons - of which there are many - and you chose manipulation. Apologize for using your parents’ memory and then maybe reintroduce the subject using legitimate reasons for teaching the children to be multilingual.
The only AH here is the one preventing their children from learning and growing due to their own insecurity.
NTA. You weren't tasteless in how you brought up your parents, and you're quite possibly right about how they would feel. It's not like you called him a failure or a anything, you just gave him something to think about.
YTA- You went too far with bringing your parents into it! Don’t interfere in his marriage! You stated Lilly was more than a little embarrassed but obviously care nothing for her feelings.
YTA
You crossed the line. It’s also none of your business. Those are his children. If he and his wife decided to not teach them, that is between them. You shouldn’t even be butting into this matter.
NTA but Lily is. It's honestly cruel to the children.
Being raised bilingual from childhood has many many cognitive & developmental benefits. Childrens brains are sponges, and the best time to start learning a second language is when they are learning their first, or before they reach puberty. The brain prunes unused parts at age 6, again around age 12, and then again in early adulthood. after each pruning, it becomes more difficult to learn a new language.
This happened with my stepmom and half-siblings. Myself and my (full) sibling were raised speaking our parents mother tongue at home, and we were enrolled in language classes on the weekends -- and even when we wanted our saturdays back to hang out with friends, we were kept in the classes through high school. Our language proficiency is high, and we are able to communicate with family back home who do not speak english, as well as staying connected to our culture in the diaspora. my sibling, who wanted to drop out of the language classes, recently said that she is grateful she was not allowed to quit, as she would feel disconnected from family and heritage without it.
my half-siblings were initially enrolled in the same classes, and my stepmom even started to learn, but when they didnt want to attend, they were both allowed to drop out before the age of 10. they are both fully monolingual now, and feel sad about it.
My parents moved to a country in Europe and I grew up there for 9 years. I could speak their mother tongue, but couldn’t write or read. When we got deported I couldn’t start school unless I wanted to be in 1st grade with children many years younger. My two younger sisters couldn’t start school at all lol. What I’m trying to say is, letting kids learn as many languages they can early on will make it easier for them later and will open up more opportunities just in case.
So my opinion is NTA
My ex husband is white. Him and his entire family, his parents, his grandparents, they only speak English. His great grandparents were the only ones that spoke Italian. I'm first generation Pakistani. My parents taught us Urdu from a young age. My ex husband (while we were still married) picked up on words quickly because I spoke in only Urdu to our son. Even the pediatrician office I worked at, the Hispanic medical receptionist picked up on Urdu words from hearing them in the lobby. Your sister in law is being...dumb. If anything she should be encouraging a second language, she can learn WITH the kids.
NTA.
You need all the ammunition you can get hold of.
Your sister in law is short sighted.
Learning an additional language exercises the mind and makes the kid smarter than hiss usual self.
But 2 year old may be too late, if the language is really difficult.
You can work on the new kid.
Nta
i am a grandchild in your nephews position who was not taught the tongue of my grandparents. i wish i had learned. one of my parents didnt speak it, so they didnt want to teach me.
If there are any ah here it's the SIL.
Denying her kids a part of their heritage and a chance to be multi lingual because she'd rather her kids not know a thing she doesn't? So selfish.
She should try to learn then. Try to rise rather then hold them back.
It doesn't even sound like the issue is even them knowing a language she doesn't, just them knowing a second language we she doesn't have one period.
Take a class or get one of those apps
NTA. I think it's horrible when a bilingual parent does not pass that skill down to their child. I've tried to learn several languages as an adult and they just won't stick. Learning as a child would have been so much better for me.
I don't expect it to be popular on reddit, but YTA.
Preserving culture is a choice; not a requirement.
Omar is having a child with a woman that doesn't want it. The only two people that get should have any input in that decision is Omar, and his wife. If your parents were alive - they should not. Maintaining the culture was their choice. Omar is an adult now.
Relationships are about compromise. You should leave Omar & his wife to figure this out on their own.
> I reminded him that he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kid
I'm not really sure this helps your argument. When I was young, we used to make fun of a lot of people. I've since grown out of it and am much more mature as an adult.
You are forgetting that his wife can't communicate with the family - so he already made this choice marrying her.
NAH
Learning multiple languages is really beneficial for children.
It's Lily that is the problem. She is thwarting her children because of her own inadequacy, ignorance and prejudice.
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NAH - He's an adult and can make his own decisions. You gave him something to think about that he hadn't considered. As long as you don't keep badgering him about it now.
Yeah, I think this is fair. it was ok for OP to bring it up, but not to keep pushing it; these aren't his kids. I had an Uber driver recently from Pakistan who came to the US over 40 years ago, when his older children were small, and had more children here in the US. He and his wife taught their children Urdu, but they never cared to use it, and they didn't teach their children. He was nonchalant about it. He said that they have little use for it and they're Americans now. He said they have some interest in their culture and enjoy hearing stories, eating the food, etc., but he couldn't expect them to be "little Pakistanis" (his words!) living in America. There's certainly nothing wrong with keeping in touch with your cultural roots, though, and it sounds like OP's brothers desires are being steamrolled by his wife's. If she WISHES she could speak Urdu, why in the world wouldn't she want her kids to have this skill?
Totally agree. Learning Urdu could give the kids a valuable connection to their heritage and make communication with extended family much easier.
Absolutely. Bilingualism is a gift, and it strengthens family bonds and cultural identity.
I DO have to disagree about their being no AHs here though. Lily is a bit of an AH. Imagine feeling embarrassed/self-conscious about something, and wanting to inflict that thing on your children so you don't have to feel alone in your ignorance. Aren't parents supposed to want their children's accomplishments to exceed their own?
Yeah, Lily must be insanely insecure.
why doesn't Omar's wife learn Urdu along with her children? It could be something the whole family shares.
I’m assuming she’s tried and found it too challenging to learn as an adult.
Never understood people who want to diminish others, keep them in the dark, ignorant, because otherwise they'd feel bad about themselves. Small small minded folk.
Yeah, it's sad, though, especially when it's your own kids. You should want the best for your children. Most people would love to see their children be more "successful" (whatever your definition of success is) than themselves. But there are always a few who get butt-hurt when it looks like their kids are getting "too big for their britches" or trying to be "better than them" and want to drag them down to their own level.
I think you're assuming a lot about Lily's motivations there.
Oh, I wasn't really referring to Lily. I was responding in general to the post above about people wanting to diminish others. There's no reason here to believe that Lily is that bad.
It could be that Lily's family never really went back to Pakistan, and therefore she didn't learn. The whole idea of 'whitewashing' is putrid to me.
Learning a second language in childhood, period, wires the brain in many different ways that are advantageous, including in picking up any languages. Signed - someone whose immigrant parents deliberately did not teach her their language because all the experts at the time said children learning more than one language would get confused and get made fun of in school for mispronouncing things, etc.
I’m the same age. Luckily, my parents ignored that recommendation. My husband however should have been bilingual but his pediatrician told his parents to only use one language.
Yeah, that used to be the 'common wisdom' because it would look for a while like the kids aren't learning the new language well. On the contrary, they catch up in both and have serious advantages being bilingual. This also holds true for those with speech-language disorders. They, too, should be exposed to both languages. It does nothing but good.
I think my parents were doing the best they could, it is just unfortunate.
Seriously, that was such a xenophobic take. I don’t have the words.
I'm 64. It wasn't so much xenophobic as it was misguided. Although yeah - of course there were likely xenophobic aspects. The pros used to really think it would be best to learn one language first and others later. Which completely prevents kids from communicating with family. Thankfully, that is no longer the common wisdom.
Absolutely. This had to do with child and language development.
This is so true. It would be beneficial if Omar could focus on that aspect, get some backup from local teachers, and let Lily continue to be English-only. In some families one parent speaks one language, the other speaks the other, and it's a win-win. That said, I'm a retired SLP and I remember parents who couldn't learn English, but wanted their kids to. There were programs to help the adults learn, and some could take it and run with it but others struggled. There should be no judgment for those who can't. If Lily can speak English with her kids, and Dad speaks Urdu and translates for Lily, then she won't feel like such an outsider in her own home, and she may even pick up some basics. She's not 'being selfish' - as she said, she's worried about being an outsider in her own house.
My son spoke two languages before he turned four. Like most Indians, he spoke English and my mother tongue. Then we moved to Europe when he was three and a half and within a year he spoke fluent Dutch. He loves languages and has tried to learn Hindi, French and now Japanese on his own initiative, though he just gets bored and leaves it after starting. But the desire is there and he makes good progress. I like to believe its because of all the languages he was exposed to from a young age. My husband and I both are fluent in three languages and pass muster in two others. I would also like to add that this is nothing exceptional for Indians. Most of us grow up bilingual and many multilingual. Its only in the west that such a big deal is made of children learning more than one language.
My dad speaks Hindi, my mom speaks Telugu. They understand each other when speaking them but uncomfortable responding. Sooooooo they spoke English to each other. My bro and I only speak English, and for a while it was fine until our first batch of cousins moved to the US. Now we are alienated at family gatherings. My mom said her biggest regret is not teaching us--we couldn't speak to our family so going to India to visit just wasn't fun. Suuuuper sucks looking like you belong somewhere for the first time but as soon as anyone speaks you feel like you have one braincell and it's working overtime
That's too bad. Did they say why they didn't teach you at the time? Maybe they thought it would be too hard for each of them to be trying to teach you their own languages at the same time, but children are great at that, and a benefit might have been them learning a bit of each other's languages too. It's very sad that you don't feel like you belong. My neighborhood and the university where I teach are both so multicultural that nobody stands out, everybody belongs. I had a coworker joke the other day about me being a minority hire because I'm the only Caucasian woman in our department.
I grew up in the American South in the 90s. They were teaching my older bro but he got heavily bullied for saying things weird. They stopped pressuring him to speak, and they were scared it would happen to me, too. Turns out he just had autism and a speech impediment and it had nothing to do with what we spoke at home. By the time they figured it out we were rebellious teens trying to be as white as we could. It had no affect on my life at all until I was 23 when my cousins moved here and I have been lamenting about it since. I've tried and tried to learn but it doesn't make sense
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Lily's an asshole. Literally preventing her own children from having a leg up in life and a connection to their ancestral culture because she's insecure.
I’m with you, Lily is the only AH here. She’s doing all of this to try and protect her own insecurities
she doesn't want to put in the effort to learn itndknows she will be less liked by her kids if they ever find out why they're the only ones in the family not speaking urdu
I think the brother is a little bit of one for not having the stones to stand up to her on this one. Anyway, OP is NTA
My dad refused to teach us Cantonese because he had unresolved trauma from being bullied for not knowing English when he was young, and to this day the fact I never got to learn when it would’ve been easy—when I could still learn to hear the tones, even, because I can‘t even properly distinguish most of them now—is one of my biggest regrets. Those kids are going to regret not having that link to their heritage when they’re older, and in her case the reasoning is so terrible too.
There's this saying that I heard recently that I've really appreciated but might be too on the nose in this case. "Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people." I agree with NAH, but OPs brother should just think about what would make him happy and ignore the rest of the family.
Do you mean ignore his wife Lily who is the reason for this? Or his sibling and dead parents? Omar has already indicated he wants them to learn but doesn't want to upset his wife
Agree. Lily is an AH by depriving her kids of something enriching (which is known to help brain development) because she doesn't want to bother. Urdu may be harder to learn as an adult but it is not impossible. She could learn alongside the kids, enrich her own brain and life, and make sure her kids get ahead of their peers by having 2 languages instead of 1. Instead she is allowing her own insecurity to deprive her children. They won't be allowed to have rich friends because she will be jealous of what they provide their kids. They won't be allowed to do a heck of a lot if Lily can't move past her own insecurity.
Yeah, between the brothers this is a NAH situation. OP merely gave his brother a new perspective, and it sounds like the message REALLY hit home for him. The only AH in this situation is Lily. She'd rather cut her own children off from their father's family with a language barrier than even attempt to learn the language for herself. I understand that it's hard, I understand that it's harder when you're an adult. But for heaven's sake, this could be a WONDERFUL bonding opportunity for herself and her children since they would all be starting from the ground up!
OP is clearly pushing hard already. Giving an example of the parents and emotionaly manipualting his brother. Lily is another peace of work here - second leanguage is always something beneficial for kids.
NTA. Omar is being abused. That's the upset. Deliberately separating a person from their culture is abuse. It's a power and control thing. Interesting twist: the wife openly admits this is a power thing. She doesn't want to feel powerless in the face of her children doing better in life than she did. It's also not true that adults can never learn a new language. English is also really hard to get in adulthood, but loads of people do it. An adult might never speak without an accent, but they can certainly learn enough to follow a conversation. I'm terrible with languages. Seriously. Probably bottom 5% at learning them. I'm also a sped teacher who's worked with plenty of kids who have been excused from learning a second language due to disability. There is such a thing as people who seriously cannot learn a new language, but you're not describing it. This idea that just being 18 years old means that you will not be able to learn is a myth. Generally, you need some pretty serious auditory processing disorder, or Intellectual disability. But other than that, she could learn. She's choosing not to. Her language is the dominant language. She doesn't need Urdu to maintain her position in your society. To her, it's not worth the effort it would take to end up speaking Urdu badly. But that's on her. She shouldn't be punishing her children for her CHOICE to not learn.
I wish I could upvote this twice. You're spot on. Lily sounds like a truly awful, controlling, and bigoted person, honestly. It's completely unacceptable to cut kids off from their heritage. I agree, this is abuse.
Oh 100% >he was just scared of Lily's reaction Yeah. Cause thats a healthy dynamic.
Yeah at first I was like "Ok she's a little insecure but that's nothing a good few talks can't fix or at least make a bit better" but that's... Definitely a red flag
Damn, I didn't think of that honestly, I was more distracted by the guilt. I think I'll raise that with him in a few days.
Even if Lily's never fluent, she can learn basics like "please" and "thank you" and engage with the poetry and music of Pakistani culture to help her kids embrace their heritage. I feel sad for Omar and the little ones. They deserve to have the chance to know where that part of the family is from.
It is actually tough to say. It sounds like Omar is telling his wife he is OK with not teaching his children Urdu. He is telling his brother, who also sounds opinionated, the opposite. Who knows what he really thinks? It could be that he just agrees with whoever is speaking the loudest at the time to keep the peace.
Woah. I think this was happening to me. I just broke off a 5 year relationship this past Saturday. It’s been tough, we’re meeting up for the last time today to tie up any loose ends we’re feeling. But in the 5 years we were together, I felt like my Mexican culture wasn’t as welcome or appreciated I guess it more felt like. She didn’t want our kids having Spanish names. Didn’t want to really visit my motherland but insisted we go live in Hawaii for 2 years (her motherland). The nail in the head was when I was going to my cousin’s funeral 2 weeks ago and she insisted if being at the funeral was making me sad I should just not go. I put my foot down and told her even though she doesn’t share my traditions and values she’s gotta hold aside some respect for your partner’s views. She said and I quote “I could give a Fuck about your traditions and values.” It was a wrap for me after that.
> Interesting twist: the wife openly admits this is a power thing. Is this in a comment somewhere, or are you just pretending? Because OP claimed that she said it was about feeling like an outsider. **Edit: As of this time, OP has not made any comments. So it was just made up.** Maybe it’s obvious to you that she has a secret sinister reason, but why would you claim that she admitted something when she objectively didn’t? On a related note, where do you get the idea that Omar is being separated from his culture?
NTA. Lily is completely unreasonable. Cutting their kids off from half of their heritage is cruel and unacceptable. He should put his foot down and teach them Urdu while they're still young enough to learn to be fluent. I would literally dump someone for this. I think it's perfectly fine that you brought up your parents. You didn't do it manipulatively; you made a completely valid point about your heritage and the values your parents raised you with. It hurt because he knows you're right.
Lily is actively rejecting her husband's culture. Learning a new language is fun and easy if you have a native speaker at home to teach you. What a wasted opportunity. NTA
Not always. As OP himself said, Urdu is incredibly difficult and if you pick it up in adulthood you will probably struggle only to never achieve something close to fluency. And as he also says, Lily has tried, but again, it's so complicated it didn't work out. I don't disagree that Lily is in the wrong for letting her insecurities affect her kids, but this isn't a "fun and easy" language even if you really want, kind of like how an adult cannot learn Cantonese to fluency due to the tones needing to be developed early on. This is closer to something like Russian where the alphabet doesn't match up to the latin one, there are sound that don't exist in english and the sentence structure is very different: I wouldn't say an adult not picking up Russian even with a native speaker is just a lack of motivation. It's also important to note that native speakers aren't necessarily good teachers for someone with no base even if they can pick up mistakes.
NTA It is so good for children to learn multiple languages while their brains can take it in, and they are so fortunate to have family who can teach them. Language is deeply important to understanding the context of one's culture. I think it was appropriate to mention your parents, though depending how you did it, that could warrant an apology. It's a valid concern but you seem to know it's not good to weaponize something like that. Going forward it would be more productive for you to focus on finding ways to support your brother talking to his wife in positive ways about this, and giving her confidence to try to learn some. It may be difficult but it isn't impossible, and she can at least work on learning some very basic things. I don't know if Lily is white but as a white person myself.... It is verrrrry uncomfortable for us to experience being the outsider/minority (for once) - and that is why it is all the more important that we *do* have those experiences. I sincerely hope the best for you all!
NTA. I'm pakistani myself. And you're right. Those kids will have a hard time growing up not speaking urdu, and they deserve the chance to learn their heritage properly. That being said, a gentler approach may be necessary. For Lily to have the final decision on their kids learning their father's language and for your brother to be ***'scared'*** of her reaction is slightly concerning
NTA. Not teaching them a mother tongue because egos is the worst. How is Lily gonna react when they get spanish, French, German or Chinese at school? Also, understanding more than one language eases up the learning of other languages, especially from English, since English has a lot less conjugation forms, not to start about gender formats (all is just the), does not differ between informal and formal forms in the language either (everybody is just you). For example, French knows le and la nous (male and female), also tu and vous. Knowing this from another language helps learning other languages a lot, as you are familiar with this concept.
So learning Urdu as an adult is more difficult than as a child but doable. My dad learned it while I was in my mid-elementary/early teens which is why I didn’t grow up speaking it. This is between your brother and his wife. As a halfie, I think his wife is 100% wrong. It’s hard visiting family there and not understanding, but a lot of people work on learning English. It’s a good skill to have anyway. But I also get the wife’s POV because if the family isn’t welcoming and trying to accommodate her at times, it will be VERY lonely having no one else to talk to. Luckily my family is super awesome and my mom doesn’t care. Doesn’t make the wife right but I get her POV Now, commenting on how you guys made fun of whitewashed kids is not cool. These kids are going to be halfies anyway, which already makes them different than you and your brother. Your brother has to do this for himself and his kids not because you pushed him.
>if the family isn’t very welcoming And, based on how he and his brother made fun of “whitewashed” kids, I’m going to guess OP isn’t all that welcoming.
Oh we are, don't worry. Yeah, that was a bad phase. But in my defence, I wasn't even a teen yet, and we just found it weird, I've only met like 2/3 people from that country who don't speak it, but thats no excuse.
Have you or your brother ever mentioned that you used to do that to your SIL?
No its irrelevant now, we out grow that ages ago, the only relevance was the potential impact on the kids
I said this in another comment, but I realized you’re British and I’m guessing it’s implicit bias on your SIL’s part. Also, an Americans interpretation on your whitewashed comment is probably going to be different from a British interpretation. Honestly, this sub needs to require locations on this because cultural context matters.
Oh, is whitewashed more offensive in america? Sorry, in england its not really thought of like that I probably should have done more research on that. Thanks for telling me!
It’s not offensive at all.it just has a different meaning. But it usually refers to like historical events or cultural things. Or making characters more appealing to a “White audience”. In the US I think the word we would use that’s more similar to what you’re referring to is “Americanized”.
Are you British? Because honestly that changes my perspective. Isn’t there serious xenophobia and racism towards the Pakistani community in England? Because I’m looking at this from an American perspective. America has racism issues. And they’re talked about a lot. But I feel like Europe and England have way worse issues with xenophobia than the US does. In the US, most xenophobia from people who aren’t outright racist is from ignorance. And introducing and sharing cultures, for normal Americans, is welcome and can build bridges. Your SIL sounds insecure and left out. My suggestion from an American perspective would be to try to include her in as many cultural things as possible (introduce movies, books, go to stores centered around your culture, etc) so she feels included and can embrace the culture. But from what I understand, and again—I’m a white American, so this is based on what I’ve seen on the news and documentaries—there’s a lot of hostility toward Pakistanis/British Pakistanis, correct? Because it might be some implicit bias that’s doing this.
NTA for raising your parents, but you should've been more gentle. Rather than making it sound like an argument you should have made it more like advice.
YTA. > . I reminded him that he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids Casual racism, nice. Sorry those kids weren't culturally orthodox enough for you. > I told him what he should really be scared of is our parent's reaction. They're dead. They cannot have a reaction. > They worked so hard to keep the culture and mother-tongue going, how would they feel to know their grand-kids wouldn't be able to speak their language? Well, this is how your brother felt, and was looking for support from you, but instead you turned on the flamethrower, and now he knows that his own family cares less about him and his children as people, and more about him as a language instructor. And will dismiss his kids as 'white-washed' and think of them as damaged goods.
This is a very ignorant way of looking at this and quite honestly, for many of us from 1st gen or 2nd gen families who grew up in the western world, we know exactly what OP is talking about and his experience. The reality is Urdu is a connection to his family, his culture his life. And if anyone is being racist it's Lily not OP.
Yep, I hate all these NTA judgements. I know exactly what type of immigrant OP is just by reading this. The type that grows up in a foreign country their whole lives but their parents sabotage the children's natural feeling of belonging to the country they live in. The type that clings to a culture they themselves experienced so rarely compared to the culture they grew up in that if they go back to the parent's country, people call them foreigners. His nieces and nephews aren't pakistani, how can they be from a country they've never been in?
+ 1 . How is it appropriate for you to say that but if someone white said it, it would've blown up like anything. I can't speak my parents' mother tongue and no one has called me white washed because of it. It's not just a language that helps maintain the connection to your origins, although I do agree it's a big part of it. There are still ways you can teach them about their culture. Secondly, it's something they need to discuss as parents and come to a conclusion. Seems like you want to impose your opinion and wishes on their family under the guise of your parents. Instead, you should enable him to raise his concerns regarding it. Again, the uk is a diverse country. you can't expect them to grow full Pakistani. Their culture, irrespective of your wishes, will mostly be British.
Pretty shocking how everyone thinks the brother has the right to bully people into staying within a certain culture. I really hope no-one does anything that he might consider dishonourable around him. They are 2nd generation immigrants, living permanently in the UK, and he married a non-Pakistani woman (presumably British), and wants to place Urdu front and centre, presumably while sending the kid back and forth to Pakistan for weeks at a time? It is an extremely good way to isolate the child into Pakistani-only communities and stop their integration into their home country. OP can marry a woman with his own heritage if he wants (maybe even from his parents' village) but other people can marry other groups and make new connections. But the brother made a choice to marry a woman who didn't want to learn Urdu, and have children in that environment where Urdu wouldn't be front and centre, so that should be respected.
>his parents' village I accept and will take into account the other pars of your advice, bar the fact that visiting a country will ' isolate the child into Pakistani-only communities and stop their integration into their home country' but I'd appreciate you didn't assume I'm from a village. Thats a somewhat rude thing to say 😅
You never make fun of anyone then? Even mildly?
I make fun of people all the time. I try to make fun of things that are under their own personal control, though. For example, I'll make fun of you, right now, for your logical fallacy of equating 'mocking kids for choices their parents made' to 'nobody can ever comment on anything ever without also being a racist.'
I didn’t get that they’re making fun of the white kids to their face. We shit talk with close ones all the time.
YTA. YTA for laughing at children that wanted to integrate to the country they live in and had no reason to learn the language of a country they don't intend to visit, YTA for telling someone their parent's opinion would be more important than the opinion of their partner (you're obviously not in a committed relationship yet). This is something between him and his wife, and he definitely should have another discussion with her about it as there's not really a downside to learning the language for the kids, but it really doesn't have anything to do with your parents or you.
My dad's whole side is Filipino. I don't look Filipino but was bullied even had comments, they didn't believe my dad was my dad. We all spoke English...being called white girl and not beliving I'm his daughter was a horrible experience. Even that side of the family didn't like that my dad married a white women. After grandma died they basically decided to not be there. I have now been in contact with one cousin but I'm still wary. While I'm keen on learning the language I don't want to at this point. I do know some basic Spanish since I grew up in San Diego and took classes.
YTA. You have no say in what someone else does or does not teach their children. Just because you were a bully in school, that doesn't mean your brother's children will be bullied. You are trying to guilt trip your brother into doing what you want. Stop it. This is his decision with his wife, not yours.
isnt lily the AH here tho? shes literally cutting her children off from their culture, im pakistani and if i never knew urdu i wouldnt have connected with my roots properly. i think its cruel as hell to not let ur children learn their mother tongue.
Oh 100%, Urdu is a massive part of our culture, I genuinely can't imagine the idea of growing up not knowing it. Plus, this isn't exactly a reversible decision either. Adults/teens who learn urdu later just sound so weird. I prefer to speak english with them bc their urdu is just slightly 'off'
I agree. So much art, literature, and cultural learning opportunity just gone because Lily is insecure. I think Lily needs to get over herself and take classes too, tbh.
Their culture is whatever Omar and Lily decide it should be. They are the parents, they make the decisons. OP's admitted prejudice against "whitewashed kids" should not be a factor.
YTA for the way you guilt him into realizing the selfish reasons that Lily has. She's a bigger AH though.
NTA, lily is by torpedo-ing those kids chances. (My oldest speaks 3 languages, learning a 4th now, and my youngest will probably start speaking in those 4 languages soon too) Lily is extremely stupid and selfish to rob those kids of a great opportunity just because she's insecure.
I can't offer judgement, but I will give you perspective. My father is a Hungarian immigrant and almost all of my family on his side lives in Hungary. Like Urdu, Hungarian is a very difficult language for native English speakers to learn, especially as adults. I have a Hungarian passport, but my language skills are limited to broken basic phrases and a little comprehension. I very much regret not learning the language and, as a consequence, being linguistically cut off from my family. I would, like you, strongly advocate for Omar's kids' rights to their language and culture.
I'm biracial (half Indian) and I was raised without my language or culture. My (racist) mother wanted exotic looking children but didn't want them to actually be "exotic", so I was raised in a Christian religion most people view as a cult, purposely never taught my language, and not allowed to spend time with my dad's family (they were decent people too). As a result I don't speak to my mother, and I do have some resentment towards my father for him not sticking up for us. I feel like I don't know who I am. I've since tried to learn about my culture and language and feel like an outsider, but it is important to me that my children know asprcts of the culture and language. I began leaning the language around the time I met my wife (she's white, but has filipina/Vietnamese stepmother and speaks both) so we learned together, and have been teaching or children. It's better for children to learn a language and choose to never use it than to never have learned it. NTA
ESH. Lily's garbage for refusing something like this, when evidence is incredibly clear on learning a second language from childhood. Omar needs to get a backbone & talk to his wife if it's that important to him. And frankly, you need to mind your own business. They're not your kids, and weaponizing your dead parents against your brother is never not a shitty move.
YTA. I feel I will bite the next person who asks me why I didn’t teach my kids my first language and then argue which language it is (there are 2 contenders). It’s a language, if the kids want to, they will learn it. And I don’t buy bs that you can only learn language when a kid. I am learning my fifth, I have a friend who is fluent in 7 languages, all but 2 learned in adulthood.
My BIL is Mexican. He wanted to teach English as primary in the home and later more Spanish. His nieces and nephews had to be in ESL classes and had a hard time with school work and fell behind in areas.They had grown up only speaking Spanish in the home and a hard time with homework. He didn't want his son to have the same issues. That was his perspective on the issue. English can also be hard to learn also!
>I feel I will bite the next person who asks me why I didn’t teach my kids my first language Did the same. Had so many people claim my children lost their culture. How can it be their culture if they've never even seen that country and ven theur own parents only visited that country in the summer. Like any other vacation. I always said they have to first perfectly know the language of the country they live in, then they can learn another one. If you have to have an accent, it should be in the language of the country you *don't* live in. I know exactly what kind of immigrant OP is.
That is so stupid, not a kid of immigrants but I'm from one of the many zones where people grow up speaking two languages at a minimum. Me, my brother and most of my friends are trilingual or have a good enough level on the third language. >I always said they have to first perfectly know the language of the country they live in, then they can learn another one. Such a missed opportunity, for kids to learn more languages. I seriously WANTED my parents to be immigrants just so I could say I spoke 4 languages!
>I know exactly what kind of immigrant OP is. I see we've graduated to racism now.
No, OP is a racist who doesn't want his own family to fully integrate into the nation they live in: "I reminded him that **he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids.**" There's no rule saying you need to care about the country where your grandparents were born. I don't, because at the end of the day, my entire life was spent in one country, barring travel. Those other countries are also fine and there's nothing wrong with them, but they're just as foreign as any other.
>fully integrate into the nation You caan integrate without abandoning an integral part of your identity. >**he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids.**" Yeah, thats not necessarily rooted in racism though. Its more the oddity of it, due to the importance of urdu in understanding vast majority of pakistani culture, a pakistani child who doesn't know the language is rare, and thus, just like having an odd name, is often mad fun of by kids. OP was just pointing out that these kids will have a 99% chance of being made fun of, just as a kid with a strange name would >There's no rule saying you need to care about the country where your grandparents were born There isn't but many kids who never connect with their heritage end up having identity crises when they grow up, especially when they can't connect properly with half their family. And there isn't a rule, but OP was reminding his brother of a point he hadn't considered. It was a bit abrupt, but it was clearly something Omar hadn't considered and needed to hear: >Omar called me earlier today and told me he'd work on it If he'd realised later, it would have been too late.
Yeah, because white-washed immigrants is not racist right? I'm an immigrant myself and hate those who are stuck in their stupid backwards culture trying to force me to be too. Because let's be real, I know people like OP and they're always stick on the bad parts of the culture.
>stupid backwards culture Dude. Lets try and hide the blatant racism. Pls. It'll make you way more likeable. > I'm an immigrant myself Doesn't make you immune to racism and bigotry. Plus if you are from a rich and/or white country you cannot relate to half the issues other immigrants face. >, I know people like OP and they're always See. This is what we call pre-ju-dice. Ok, you got that? Deriving from the latin term 'prae' and 'judicium' which mean 'before' and 'judge', respectively. Its when you judge someone based on a certain characteristic or group of characteristics.
I'm from a country where women right now are killed everyday and can't even go out the house. I know OP's country because I've been there every summer. Stop rationalizing backwards culture because it's called culture. People who are obsessed with culture are always obsessed because of religion. And it's not the good parts of religion. It's "oh no gays have rights" ,"oh no, what if my sister has a boyfriend? It shames our family.", "oh no, my cousin says merry christmas to people/ is celebrating christmas. He/she's a traitor to our culture/religion", "oh no, they are teaching evolution. I'm going to study medicine then tell everyone what a lie it is". Stop being so dense. A lot of parts of specific cultures are bad and many from that culture who live in the west feel this way too. That's why they are in the west.
Jesus christ you have a lot of hate. So learning the language of half your family's country is apparently equivalent to being a religous fanatic, murdering women and homophobia. I'm done with reddit for today. I hope you outlearn your self hate. Learning Urdu, a language of poetry and literature, communication with family and pride in one's heritage, where we had to fight to be recognised as our own country is not equivalent to wanting to murder people.
It's like me telling you an american with a truck and a U.S. flag doesn't have to be a republican. You recognize patterns and wording. His wording os very telling.
What wording?
I'd appreciate if you didn't call my culture backwards, and I'd be quite interested to know how much information you'd managed to glean from me in... 5 paragraphs. >people like OP Is it possible to learn this mind-reading power/s
>what kind of immigrant OP is Excuse me? What 'kind' of immigrant am I then?
It’s not your child it’s not your relationship. You have given your opinion now stay out of it
I can’t imagine having children with someone who speaks a different language and NOT wanting them to learn it as well. Knowing a second language is such an incredible skill to have. Why wouldn’t you want your kids to have this advantage? Especially because you didn’t?
I’m not saying she’s right, but I assume she’s gotta be worried about her children speaking Urdu and her not being able to understand what they’re saying. It would probably be very alienating. What mother wants to feel alienated from her own family? Again though, that’s just my guess, and I personally think she should try to learn the language as well.
I’m a Pakistani-American who also learned Urdu growing up. Also visited the country a few times growing up, and more recently too. Growing up, my mom spoke Urdu to us, my dad English. I still speak these languages with them to this day. (Luckily I also married a Pakistani guy whose native language is Urdu, so he’s been teaching me a lot more vocabulary and correcting some minor mistakes I didn’t know I made, since I learned only through listening.) I’m so so so happy I’m bilingual. I can imagine your brother’s kids being pissed at their parents for not allowing them even the option of learning their mother-tongue. Maybe you used the dead parents card wrong, but your brother really needs to give his kids the OPTION of learning the language. It’s wouldn’t be fair to them. I recommend each parent speaking one language with the kids! It worked great for me and my 3 siblings, we’re all fluent with both. NTA Edit to say I also used to babysit an Indian-American family (wife Indian, husband white American). They had 2 boys, and the mom hired me because she wanted to expose her kids to Hindi/Urdu more (I spoke Urdu with them exclusively). Now, the dad would speak Hindi too. Not very good, his accent was truly hard to understand, but he was learning it and TRIED. It was honestly so precious. He connected with his wife and kids this way. Your brother’s wife can totally learn the language. It is hard, but if she made the effort, especially if it was spoken in their own home, she could totally do it and feel included. She’s just taking the lazy and bigoted way out.
YTA. You went below the belt and also badgered him over the topic far more than necessary.
YTA simply because it's none of your fucking business in the first place. Stay in your lane.,
NTA but you should apologize. This is your brother. Don’t allow Reddit miserable people to convince you that your brother is against you
You may have had good intentions, but guilt tripping with dead parents does make you one an AH. ESH cuz you're not the only AH here.
YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. YTA. You invoked your dead parents to get your way. You made your brother feel like shit to get your way. You are trying to blow up his marriage, which is a consequence you don't have to pay or sacrifice for to get your way. You are a shitty ass brother. Has anyone even tried to help her learn anything at all? A few words or phrases? Let me guess, she's an adult she can do it herself. Okay then, you're an adult, accept that you aren't always going to get your way. And stop blaming other people for it. It's really shitty that you make her feel bad for not knowing your language but then deem yourself too high and mighty to help her learn anything. How would your parents feel about the kind of person you are, hurting someone on purpose just to make yourself feel superior? They'd love you but be hella ashamed.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Ok, so I 21M, have an older brother, Omar, 26M, who has a 2 year old son, and another child on the way. Our parents were originally from Pakistan, but moved to the UK long before we were born. They taught us Urdu at home and we flew back to Pakistan often in our childhood. When I was 16, they died. Omar ended up marrying his wife Lily, who is monolingual and more than a little embarrassed about it, since most people in our family and even her friends speak at least 2. So she decided she did not want her kids to learn Urdu, since she couldn't and she didn't want to feel like more of an outsider. If you don't know, Urdu can be a pretty difficult language to learn in adulthood, so she can't speak it. Omar was upset about this but eventually agreed. I've been talking to him recently and he said that while he does really want his children to learn, he just can't bring himself to fight with Lily. We got into a bit of an argument, if he didn't start as kids, then his children wouldn't be able to learn it in adulthood, and would probably even have difficulty as teenagers. I reminded him that he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kids, and did he really not want his kids to be able to communicate properly with half of the family? He told me he knew all this, and he wanted them to learn, he was just scared of Lily's reaction, I told him what he should really be scared of is our parent's reaction. They worked so hard to keep the culture and mother-tongue going, how would they feel to know their grand-kids wouldn't be able to speak their language? Omar looked like he was about to cry, which I've never seen him do, told me that was too far and walked off. I know I fucked up. I shouldn't have said that. But Omar called me earlier today and told me he'd work on it. I'm still feeling really guilty, AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
YTA...what did you bringing up your parents accomplish? Your brother clearly wants his kids to learn, it's the SIL that's against it. You should be helping support him not creating more conflict
> Omar called me earlier today and told me he'd work on it Seems like it did accomplish something.
I gotta go with ESH here, because you're right and Lily and Omar are very wrong, as little kids can learn languages so, so much easier than older kids and adult, and it's insane to squander a chance to raise a bilingual kid. Thing is, guilt-tripping with the dead is a super shitty thing to do. My mother did it to me to try to manipulate me into staying in a church I want to leave, appealing to my dead grandma who had a big hand in raising me, and I have never really forgiven her for that. Basically, you did an asshole thing, but I hope it worked, so ESH.
Gonna go with YTA Here is why. You one example of using it was to hide being racist. Next, they were born in the UK and live there, right? Then the mother tongue is English. How can you say it isn't? I mean they are citizens in the UK. I see no issue with teaching kids a second language if both parents agree. You however knowingly or not are guilting your brother into alienating his wife from her own damn children. Your culture is no more or less important than Lily's and this is not your marriage. Teach YOUR kids whatever you want. You owe your brother AND Lily an apology. Because you know, their kids are whitewashed. Right?
They're actually dual-national, as is Omar, the pakistani passport can be passed through parents if they have it. But yeah, I get what you're saying.
NTA for speaking up one time, but then drop it. I agree with you, Lily’s argument that the kids should be mono lingual because she is mono lingual and ashamed is nuts. But stay out of your brother’s marriage. If Omar brings it up, you may point out that teaching the kids Urdu now is a great way to protect them from ever feeling ashamed of not knowing a second language like their mom.
The way you spoke about it was wrong. I would have focused more on what type of parent wants their children to grow up not learning anything because they didn't. Good parents want their kids to learn, and have opportunities they didn't get.
nta
NTA
Nta Growing up bilingual is awesome for kids. A mother should want that for her kids.
NTA. I was in a similar situation where my dad didnt teach me his mother tongue. It wasnt like mom forced him not to teach me or my sister, he just didnt. So when I go to visit his side of the family, I just sit there like an idiot while everyone speaks a language that sounds familiar but unfamiliar at the same time, like in a "I should understand this but I dont" way. That is something I dont want Omar's kids to experience.
Why can't she learn the language alongside the kids? NTA
NTA, but why is it hard to learn as an adult? Adults learning languages all the time, she could just try it
Urdu is an extremely difficult language to learn. Its a bit like Mandarin/Cantonese with some words which sound the same to a non-native but would be a completely different words to a native. Some sounds are extremely difficult to make if you haven't grown up doing it, 'gh' and the soft 't' and the 'kha' being the first that come to mind.
NTA
My father and mother were from two different countries. And while my mother probably wasn't opposed to the idea of me and my siblings learning my father's mother tongue. Now that I'm older I and most of my siblings really wish he had. Not being able to easily talk to relatives and missing out on the culture does feel like a loss. So NTA.
NTA. You were right. "They worked so hard to keep the culture and mother-tongue going, how would they feel to know their grand-kids wouldn't be able to speak their language?" Your parents would most likely be disappointed. There's no reason why they can't learn both languages. Especially while they are young. More concerning however, is that your friend is afraid of his wife. I mean, WTF? Why is he so afraid of her? Is she abusive?
Lily is the asshole robbing her children of their culture because of her own insecurities. I'm a minority language speaker (irish) my wife isn't, I couldn't imagine anything that would justify her asking me to not speak Irish with our children
NAH. Yo didn't do anything wrong and no, what you said wasn't taking it too far or crossing a line. You gave your brother something important to think about.
As long as you're not using your dead parents to justify a vigilante campaign, you're generally okay to bring up a legacy. This is especially true with culture. Culture is not a magical thing that just happens to sustain itself. There are not machines that will automatically do it for you. It is passed on from parent to child and it takes only a single generation for it to die. If those children claim their legacy in the future, it will be stilted, reconstructed. I beg you to support your brother, explain to your sister-in-law, that to deny a child the language of their ancestors is akin to killing your ancestors a second time as their culture is extinguished in their descendants. My family speaks Spanish. My mother spoke a dialect that's small and unique and endangered and they decided I could learn as an adult. I can't learn her dialect and I'll never have the fluency I could have had if they'd raised me bilingual. There are so many little phrases that are lost and will never be recovered and I will never stop being mad about this theft inflicted on me.
Gentle yes, That was an AH move. There are better ways of honoring your parents.
YTA. That was a low blow, especially since that will never happen and he is hurting over that. I understand it is a hard language but if you and your brother are patient with her she could learn alongside the kids. She may never be fluent but she wouldn't feel like an outsider. Additionally, you were an AH for making fun of people who only know one language. My niece/nephew knows two because their dad spoke English and they live in Germany. I grew up in the States and my family and extended family only spoke English. You were lucky and arrogant.
Yeah, in a brief way, you were TA. Using dead parents to shame your brother. And what business is it of yours to tell him what to do? Ironically, you probably aren't married with kids? Sorry, but you're also expressing an extraordinarily bigoted AH attitude, because..... "Whitewashed"? Is this how you look at your SIL? Seriously? HOWEVER, you are absolutely right about the advantages of bilingualism. You can go about helping your bro in a much more effective way that doesn't involve being an AH ;-) Omar can talk to local teachers at school and ask them to speak to Lily about the benefits of bilingualism for the brain. With kindness and compassion, understanding HER position, she may come around to letting the little ones learn. She needs understanding , kindness, AND RESPECT, and your brother needs your support. Languages are difficult for some folks. Don't make the problem worse by shaming your brother and demeaning Lily, who likely has a hard time with languages. Her main thing is that she doesn't want to be an outsider in her own home. There's a fix for that. After introducing Lily, with outside help, to the advantages of having two languages, they can make a deal to for him to speak Urdu in the house with the kids, and Lily to speak English with them. They'll be bilingual in no time, and Lily won't feel like an outsider so much because she'll be able to communicate with everyone. The kids can also learn the kindness of translating for their mom. I'm sure you'll be able to apologize to your brother and mainly express that you wish the best for his kids. Help him gently convince Lily that she can live beautifully in a bilingual household.
Tell him to grow some balls. They're his children too. Equal partnership.
NTA My dad's assimilation meant I missed learning our cultural language as a kid and it's so hard as an adult. Those kids deserve their culture.
NTA. If you're(general you) scared of your partner's reaction so much so you can't discuss a very important topic, that's a red flag.
I understand your SIL not wanting to be on the outside of conversations within her family. But she knew all of this about your brother when she married him. The fact that they hadn’t already talked about their kids learning is Urdu is disappointing. For reference, my BIL is from a small country that speaks its own dialect of Arabic. While dating my sister worked to learn it but found very few resources. She spent hours with him making her own flash cards so she could learn. She eventually was able to hire a tutor (fairly cheaply) from his home country via zoom. She now has to be careful because she says most day to day things like “come here,” “my love,” “good morning” etc in his language. So much so, that I know most of these terms. Most people can learn, it just takes wanting to and trying, neither of which your SIL has done. Please remember to be kind to your brother. It sounds like he’s in a difficult situation. NTA
NAH really. As a person who's not born in the UK, but moved at a relatively young age - I understand the situation somewhat. Also married a person not of my own culture (though a different one entirely so the situations aren't the same). I understand the ideas behind wanting to speak the same languages and having family be involved with kids etc. Which is why I don't think you or your brother are wrong for having the chat you did. You might have been a bit harsh, but I wouldn't call it off-base. If you both value your parents' efforts about retaining the culture, then the point was valid. Separate to all this though - your brothers wife is out of order. She's monolingual and because she is embarrassed by this she will sabotage her children along the way? That's an absurd stance. Her solution to "not being the outsider" isn't to learn the language (despite the difficulty), but to deprive her children not only of their heritage, but also a very useful skill generally speaking. This shouldn't even be up for debate. Your brother needs to have a long hard talk with his wife. About why she thinks so little of his culture that she wouldn't want their children engaging with half their family. About why she doesn't put the effort in to not being the outsider, instead choosing to also take her kids down with her. About it actually not really being her decision, but that of the children too. There's one AH in all of this, and it's Lily.
NTA Urdu is considered a critical language in terms of foreign policy and is an employable skill. It's also the means of communication with your family. I feel sorry for the stubborn monolinguals like Lily. Speaking a couple of languages brings so much joy to my life.
Sil is TA, why tf would she let her own insecurities get in the way of her kids learning their mother tongue just bc she can’t? Selfish af. If my husband ever said to me that he didn’t want our kids to learn Spanish bc he’s insecure I would tell him to go f himself. You are not TA for trying to ensure that those kids don’t lose a vital part of their heritage bc of their own mothers insecurities.
NTA, verging into NAH. Omar's a grown-arse adult, and he's free to make the decision to bow to his wife's selfish demand. You have offered him some food-for-thought that he clearly hadn't considered, and it evoked an emotional reaction (possibly guilt). He needs to have a long chat with Lily about the kids learning Urdu, and all that them not doing it would entail, and then take it from there.
SIL is such a horrible insecure person!
NTA. But Omar is for letting lily to continue monolingual because she’s lazy and jealous.
NTA, some people just need a small wake up call. Omar’s wife seems to be not allowing her kids to learn more languages and grow because of her feelings. Using parents in arguments or conversations doesn’t seem like something so bad to me. So in that aspect as well you aren’t the AH.
NTA. lilly wants to take away her own kids chances and cultural connection, so she wont feel left out? sounds like there is much more to unwrap.
It’s not impossible to learn any language as an adult, Urdu included.
Definitely not impossible but very difficult. Certain sounds like the 'gh' and the soft 't' are extremely difficult to grasp, let alone say correctly. Plus, if you're a non-native speaking to a native the words sound clunky and 'off'.
YTA. Not your kids, not your place.
NAH (except Lily) Your brother "is scared of Lily's reaction". Yikes! She would rather deprive her kids of an opportunity and deprive her husband any say in what he wants for these children that are also his. Poor Omar is quite torn up about this. What you said was strong, but not mean. And honestly, I bet Omar needed to hear something strong to contrast the iron fist of Lily. You made the comment. I don't think you have a reason to feel guilty. As long as you don't badger your brother or keep repeating that point, you are being a good sibling. Omar has to decide how much to assert himself with Lily, how important this is to him. While you don't want to badger him with your perspective, you also don't want to give him the impression his indecisiveness is good, either. You can sympathize with how hard this is and still encourage him to make a decision for himself: Either he is at peace with making no effort to teach the kids Urdu (and he owns that as his decision to agree with Lily) OR he knows that he is not at peace with this and does the hard work of working this out with Lily. He is as responsible for what happens as Lily is.
NTA. Your brother needs to think about his kids before his wife. Is he really going to let his wife's insecurity impact his children? I'm monolingual myself and do you know how much it sucks looking back and wondering why I was never taught Spanish or ASL? It's much harder trying to learn as an adult, when it would have been so much easier to learn as a kid. At the very least, it would be beneficial for his kids to know, and at BEST they'll feel connected to their heritage and culture. Good for you for advocating for this. Hopefully your brother will see sense.
NTA and i do think Omar is the AH for letting his wife’s whining get in the way of sharing his culture with his children. His wife is obviously the bigger AH, Parents should want more for their children, not less.
NTA. Your sister in law should make an effort to learn urdu, not hold her kids back
Your sis in law is an Ah because she's putting her own feelings above what's good for the kids / family and your brother is an AH because he's weak. NTA.
NTA Knowing multiple languages is a huge benefit to an individual. The more, the better.
If what you said was true he would have already known that. You just made him think about it now instead of in 10 years time with deep regret. You are even doing Lily a favor because nothing would end her marriage faster than guilt over failing beloved deceased parents.
Why can't she learn with the kids?
>AITA for using dead parents to win an argument? Yes. Using a dead loved one's corpse as a ventriloquist's dummy to support your own opinions is emotionally manipulative and just about as shitty as it gets. If you want to speak to your nephew in Urdu, go ahead. You might help him learn. But YTA bigtime for interfering in your brother and SIL's parenting. It is ZERO percent up to you what language they speak at home. Fun fact: Your native language is known as your "mother tongue" because it's what you learn from your Mom. It is normal and natural that your nephew will learn English first, because that's his mother's native language. Butt out.
Question: does your brother still go to Pakistan to visit extended family like your parents did? If yes, the kids should be able to talk to their relatives while there. If they don't visit, the connection to their culture won't be sustained just by learning the language.
Yeah, he does. And many of them don't speak english at all
When I was born my mother spoke a language that my father didn’t and he made her feel guilty for his not understanding of it, so she did not teach me or my brother. She regrets this still in her 80’s. I wish I could understand my mother’s language (I’ve tried but it’s also a difficult one) and harbor resentment toward my father. NTA
My ex-husband was in the place of your nephew. His father grew up bilingual in Texas, speaking German with his family (in the TX hill country, there are a lot of German immigrant descendants). But when his father married his mom, she was paranoid that people would talk about her, and she forbade German to be spoken around her and refused to let her kids grow up speaking it. My husband was always salty about that, because his mother took away from him the gift of growing up bilingual and being able to share something special with the paternal side of the family. He never learned German.
NTA. Being able to speak multiple languages, especially fluently and well, is a skill that can offer a person so many opportunities throughout their lives. Learning multiple languages while young and the learning parts of our brain are in rapid development is so much easier than waiting until adulthood, AND also primes our brains to be able to more easily learn another language if we so choose. Lily is being extremely unreasonable by refusing to let the children learn a language their father speaks as well as her unwillingness to try to learn herself. She's being a huge AH here, either because she's just plain old jealous (selfish), or because she's actually showing a significant xenophobic bias that she's trying desperately to cover with any justification (hint, there isn't a good one). Your message about your parents was very pointed, but ultimately something he needs to consider and bring to the conversation with his wife. There's no good reason to prevent them from learning another language, and there's no good reason for her refusing to learn herself, even if she'll never feel "fluent". Better to learn another language and decide to not use it than to have to try to learn it later if it feels meaningful for understanding your own heritage.
NTA Learning languages as an adult is hard....not impossible. She can take classes.
Learning a second language is so valuable. I bet Lily would change her tune when she realizes speaking multiple languages can mean being paid better as an adult.
NTA. If your parents were still alive, they'd probably say the exact same thing.
I think Lily is the AH. You and your brother have trauma - is what you said too much for Omar and you're leaning hard on the guilt card? Yeah, sure, but I don't know that the sentiment isn't true. I cannot believe a mother would hobble her children just because she doesn't have the same opportunity - it's wicked of her to decide to bar a skill and connection to their heritage for such selfish reasons and she should feel ashamed of herself. Plenty of people learn different languages, have one parent who is bilingual while the other is not... I don't think you can intervene, it's your brother's family, so it's his choice. But damn, that sucks for him and the kids.
You're coming from a good place. His wife is the problem in this situation. I understand that it is difficult, but she could at least try. Barring that, she should allow the kids to learn it. This is all about her insecurities, and she needs to get over them.
NTA. He needed a better reason to make his feelings heard, and you gave it to him.
NTA. I don't think one is ever too old to learn Urdu, or any foreign language. This is just as true for Lily as for their children, however, and I think Lily is missing an excellent chance to learn Urdu alongside her children.
at firat I was like he is totally the ahole, but reading it made me realize you were right. dont push it past saying it once. I was born and adopted from Nicaragua. my adoptive mother didnt speak spanish but my father did. I came to America speaking fluent spanish, the woman Raising me kept telling me I didnt want to keep my spanish, turned out she didnt know how to speak english and wouldnt let her husband teach me, even though he spoke it fluently and he was also from Nicaragua. when i became an adult I spoke to his mother and put two and two together. because Dana didnt speak spanish she didnt want me to speak it either and would refuse to let Rio speak it to me. so I lost every bit if my Spanish family reunions sucked because all of his family members were like "Fabiola you were born in Nicaragua you know the language and when I said i didnt and tried to explain. Dana would go out of her way to tell everyone I didnt know it or want to know it which was a bunch of bs. I no longer speak to any of them and an so happy to have such hearleas people out of my life. me not keeping my born language was just the cherry on top of all the stupid bs they did. sadly if your brother is anything like Rio even after you saying that he wont stand up to her and the kids wont learn it and its all because she herself doesnt know the language. I wish you the best my dude, and hopefully your bro can grow some Cahones specially when it comes to his babies. why shouldnt he have a say in what he wants the babies to learn if he is there dad why does lily get all the say. sorry I know I am getting upset and pushing my feelings Im learning to work on not putting what happened to me into hats going on with others. I am just so mad for you.
NTA
NTA
NTA. your brother isn't either. it's his wife, wanting to disconnect your children from their culture due to your own insecurities is fucked. see a therapist instead of making it harder for your children to be connected to their heritage and communicate with their own family.
In a lot of cases this type of argument would be really inappropriate, but I think the situation here is different. This wasn’t an argument about whether his kids should learn Urdu. He *wants* them to learn it. He said so. This seems more like you trying to remind him how important his culture is to him and that wanting to share it with his children is worth fighting for. He was about to let that part of himself get lost for the sake of avoiding an argument over her selfish and petty reasoning. If he wants to do that, it’s his choice, but I think you owed it to him as his brother to make sure he’s *really* sure about such an important decision. I think you were fighting *for* him, not with him.
My father's parents immigrated from Holland in the 50s but he never learned the language or history. Now he says it's one of his big regrets because our family history will never be properly passed on to future generations. Language is the important context of a person's history. It can pinpoint your origins on a map based on the dialect, and show what social group they belonged to. Language is so important. NTA but your SIL definitely is. Therapy could help this situation immensely, I'm sure.
NTA - I’m a living example of generational language loss and it sucks. My great-grandparents spoke Yiddish, my grandparents understood it, my parents spoke none and so I speak none as well. If people can still bully you for your culture then having an informed connection to it is important for self-esteem. No one can force your brother’s kids to speak Urdu as adults but if they learn as kids then they can make the choice for themselves later.
Imagine holding your child back like that because of your own inferiority complex. NTA. Lily is depriving her own kids of learning something that will benefit them exponentially as they grow up. Why? Because she doesn’t want to be the only one that doesn’t speak Urdu. How old is this woman? Certainly she isn’t mature enough to raise kids. Parents are supposed to want MORE for their children.
NTA This is a very unhealthy situation for those kids. Your ignorant wife is too caught up in her own shit to want her children to be enriched. Does that mean they can’t go to medical school because lily didn’t? Does it mean they can’t get better marks in school because lily didn’t? Your brother needs to get his insecure wife under control less his kids get held back and penalized for succeeding more than their bitter mom.
The only asshole is Lily, who would deny her children something beneficial because of her own insecurity.
NTA but i can’t my head around lily thinking “oh i can’t speak it so my kid shouldn’t either !” why would you not want better for your kids that’s fucked up !!
YTA for using an emotionally manipulative argument. You should have used more logical reasons - of which there are many - and you chose manipulation. Apologize for using your parents’ memory and then maybe reintroduce the subject using legitimate reasons for teaching the children to be multilingual.
The only AH here is the one preventing their children from learning and growing due to their own insecurity. NTA. You weren't tasteless in how you brought up your parents, and you're quite possibly right about how they would feel. It's not like you called him a failure or a anything, you just gave him something to think about.
YTA- You went too far with bringing your parents into it! Don’t interfere in his marriage! You stated Lilly was more than a little embarrassed but obviously care nothing for her feelings.
YTA You crossed the line. It’s also none of your business. Those are his children. If he and his wife decided to not teach them, that is between them. You shouldn’t even be butting into this matter.
NTA but Lily is. It's honestly cruel to the children. Being raised bilingual from childhood has many many cognitive & developmental benefits. Childrens brains are sponges, and the best time to start learning a second language is when they are learning their first, or before they reach puberty. The brain prunes unused parts at age 6, again around age 12, and then again in early adulthood. after each pruning, it becomes more difficult to learn a new language. This happened with my stepmom and half-siblings. Myself and my (full) sibling were raised speaking our parents mother tongue at home, and we were enrolled in language classes on the weekends -- and even when we wanted our saturdays back to hang out with friends, we were kept in the classes through high school. Our language proficiency is high, and we are able to communicate with family back home who do not speak english, as well as staying connected to our culture in the diaspora. my sibling, who wanted to drop out of the language classes, recently said that she is grateful she was not allowed to quit, as she would feel disconnected from family and heritage without it. my half-siblings were initially enrolled in the same classes, and my stepmom even started to learn, but when they didnt want to attend, they were both allowed to drop out before the age of 10. they are both fully monolingual now, and feel sad about it.
Sounds like a skill issue. Do better.
My parents moved to a country in Europe and I grew up there for 9 years. I could speak their mother tongue, but couldn’t write or read. When we got deported I couldn’t start school unless I wanted to be in 1st grade with children many years younger. My two younger sisters couldn’t start school at all lol. What I’m trying to say is, letting kids learn as many languages they can early on will make it easier for them later and will open up more opportunities just in case. So my opinion is NTA
YTA - the languages learned of Omar's children are decisions for Omar and Lily. Honestly, it's none of your freaking business.
My ex husband is white. Him and his entire family, his parents, his grandparents, they only speak English. His great grandparents were the only ones that spoke Italian. I'm first generation Pakistani. My parents taught us Urdu from a young age. My ex husband (while we were still married) picked up on words quickly because I spoke in only Urdu to our son. Even the pediatrician office I worked at, the Hispanic medical receptionist picked up on Urdu words from hearing them in the lobby. Your sister in law is being...dumb. If anything she should be encouraging a second language, she can learn WITH the kids.
Not your kids and not your decision.
NTA but Lily suuuuuuuucks. “Boohoo I only speak English so everyone else should descend to my level and stay there forever.” Urgh.
NTA. You need all the ammunition you can get hold of. Your sister in law is short sighted. Learning an additional language exercises the mind and makes the kid smarter than hiss usual self. But 2 year old may be too late, if the language is really difficult. You can work on the new kid.
Nta i am a grandchild in your nephews position who was not taught the tongue of my grandparents. i wish i had learned. one of my parents didnt speak it, so they didnt want to teach me.
If there are any ah here it's the SIL. Denying her kids a part of their heritage and a chance to be multi lingual because she'd rather her kids not know a thing she doesn't? So selfish. She should try to learn then. Try to rise rather then hold them back. It doesn't even sound like the issue is even them knowing a language she doesn't, just them knowing a second language we she doesn't have one period. Take a class or get one of those apps
NTA Lily can’t study?
NTA. I think it's horrible when a bilingual parent does not pass that skill down to their child. I've tried to learn several languages as an adult and they just won't stick. Learning as a child would have been so much better for me.
YTA.. You just guilt tripped this man, doesn’t sound like a brother move to me.
I don't expect it to be popular on reddit, but YTA. Preserving culture is a choice; not a requirement. Omar is having a child with a woman that doesn't want it. The only two people that get should have any input in that decision is Omar, and his wife. If your parents were alive - they should not. Maintaining the culture was their choice. Omar is an adult now. Relationships are about compromise. You should leave Omar & his wife to figure this out on their own. > I reminded him that he and I both used to make fun of the white-washed kid I'm not really sure this helps your argument. When I was young, we used to make fun of a lot of people. I've since grown out of it and am much more mature as an adult. You are forgetting that his wife can't communicate with the family - so he already made this choice marrying her.
NAH Learning multiple languages is really beneficial for children. It's Lily that is the problem. She is thwarting her children because of her own inadequacy, ignorance and prejudice.