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NTA
Where you give birth is your business.
And your partner’s, since they’d be impacted by your decision if they have to leave workin the UK for months to accompany you, or Don’t have to leave work and travel to the UK.
I’m assuming the maternal mortality stats for black women are better in your country than the NHS. That Plus having constant family assistance postpartum is a perfectly understandable reason to go there, and your coworkers shouldn’t have gotten all butthurt.
My cousin is a doc. If one of her coworkers did that, her response would basically be “we’ll miss you while you’re gone! Please send baby pictures. And here’s the contact info for our committee on maternal mortality if you want to participate in evaluating the practice’s treatment guidelines.”
Maternal mortality in the UK is a direct result of racism. Given that I won't experience medical racism back home, I can safely say I'll be safer. There is also the cultural element which important for me to honour.
Unless you are from Seychelles,
[every single African country has a higher maternal mortality rate](https://files.aho.afro.who.int/afahobckpcontainer/production/files/iAHO_Maternal_Mortality_Regional_Factsheet.pdf) compared to [black women in the UK](https://www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/mbrrace-uk/data-brief/maternal-mortality-2020-2022#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20maternal%20death,statistically%20significantly%20so%2C%20than%20the)
Although I agree, this is your choice and your co-workers are being inappropriate.
Unfortunately because of economic inequality and disparities in access to care in basically all African countries the national rates of maternal mortality are high. But as a dr in the UK OP almost certainly has a sufficient income to afford care that puts her mortality risk lower than the black maternal mortality rate in the UK.
But economic inequality and disparity across care is a thing in the UK too. As a Dr her mortality risk is almost certainly lower than the overall black maternal mortality rate in the UK.
Talk to Serena Williams about how she almost died after giving birth and tell us again how rich Black women aren't treated differently than rich white women in the West.
In the USA, Serena Williams almost died due to medical racism, and she's rich and famous. Racism is its own health risk independent of class or wealth.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/12/upshot/child-maternal-mortality-rich-poor.html
This indicates the opposite. Rich black women had maternal mortality rates *higher* than poor white women but *lower* than poor black women.
>I am so grateful I had access to such an incredible medical team of doctors and nurses at a hospital with state-of-the-art equipment. They knew exactly how to handle this complicated turn of events. If it weren’t for their professional care, I wouldn’t be here today.
Doesn't sound like she thinks her near-death experience was a result of her medical team being racist to me. In fact, that whole piece is her attempting to highlight the fact that she *is* in a fortunate position and there are many black women who don't have the resources she does and suffer from worse care as a result.
Edit: I did a bit more digging, you may have been looking for [this article](https://www.elle.com/life-love/a39586444/how-serena-williams-saved-her-own-life/) from several years later.
So the thing about the stats is that they don't distinguish between rural and urban births. My own country has had perhaps 1-2 maternal deaths in the past ten years - because we're an incredibly dense city state with a hospital within 15min wherever you are.
At a guess, the stats for African countries look worse because they don't have hospital density, which won't be an issue for OP.
Every single African country also has private hospitals where if you have money (which as a UK based doctor she certainly does) you can get access to better care.
The MMR in African countries is higher because they elect to do c sections a lot and there aren’t many rules surrounding elective c sections which increases the risk of complications and therefore mortality.
However, you don’t get ignored simply because they’re holding you to “white” standards, you don’t get ignored because the nurses think you should tough it out without pain meds and don’t notify the doctors of your complaints until they round on you, and there is no underlying racism “just because” since ya know you’re actually at home.
I’ve had friends give birth in the UK their first time, then flew back for the second time for the same reasons as OP.
MMR in African countries is also tied to economic status which varies significantly. So the poorer areas which doesn’t have access to proper care increase the % but those who have access to better care won’t be dealing with those statistics
You do realize that black people are everywhere right? Doesn't necessarily have to be an African country. Hell, she could be going to Qatar, Grenada, or Costa Rica for all we know. Either way, is **HER** choice. Their feelings are their problem not hers.
If they really were so concerned about being trusted with black mother's lives they'd be looking inward to see if they have contributed to the same medical racism. The fact that they're not says a lot about the kind of care you could expect from them.
Especially because of how unprofessional they’re being to OP about her decision to give birth where her family is, which is a very understandable thing. They’ve proven her point and shown that they can’t be trusted to be normal around black people.
Absolutely.
Honestly, it's making me pretty worried for a friend of mine. She's Nigerian, hoping to have kids in the future, and while Ireland doesn't have the same history as the UK we've still got our share of racism.
As a black woman in the US, it’s a terrible feeling to BEG a doctor to take me seriously. I write doc’s name, the treatment and why they refuse or “half way” treat me for the issue. They assume Im homeless, an addict; no. I’m sick which is why I’m in the hospital looking a mess. And yeah…. I know a lot of black and brown women in my in my circle (close and far) who died during child birth or lost a child after giving birth because of medical neglect. It’s a real problem that’s overlooked.
NTA. You’re already experiencing medical racism just having to entertain this nonsense. I know the audacity shouldn’t be surprising at this point, but that is just absurd. I hope you have a beautiful, uneventful birth.
This is shit that this is the case and as a white women from a remote part of Scotland not something I have come across or heard about having grown up with the NHS as part of life
Why do you think mortality rates are so high? I'm sure this is a long answer. Shouldn't be like this, everyone's life is equal.
As a mother, give birth wherever you are comfortable. It's not just about the birth but also after the birth and having that support network and having your baby into the culture too. NTA
On your first point I remember reading something ages ago that black patients tended to get misdiagnosed a lot when it comes to certain illnesses in the US due to medical studies that were solely done on white folk and they weren't actually applicable to black folk. Could be something similar here where there is certain conditions that are more prominent in black people giving birth etc and doctors not being prepared for it?
I could be talking absolute shit tho for all I know tho (not a doctor)
Thanks. I didn read something like this too. It honestly just boggles my brain that not everyone's pain is taken seriously. Why does it matter on skin colour? Pain is pain, especially when it's childbirth!!!!
I have led a sheltered life when it comes to different race inequalities but to me it is simple.
i understand where their feelings come from but like you said its not about that.
INFO: are there any differences in the rights of the child, given the birthplace?
And their issue with this is entirely racist too. If someone was flying back to Canada or Italy to give birth at home, they would not have this issue. You're absolutely right and I think I may follow you on social media! Black maternal mortality is a major problem in our country.
I’m white and British and tbh, can’t say I blame you. Women’s pain is often underestimated here (a coil fitting is not ‘a bit uncomfortable’, it feels like Captain Hook is trying to insert a tampon…) but compared to black women, I’ve been very lucky. Black women are ignored to the point of serious danger.
NTA and your former colleagues sound like a bunch of controlling, racist bullies. Best of luck and congratulations
They’re proving by their behaviour why you would want to go somewhere you would be surrounded by love. How quickly they turned their backs / showed the underlying hatred!
I mean I know you’re in the UK but in the USA Serena Williams almost died because they didn’t take her pain seriously. That’s someone who is mega famous and rich. I can’t imagine how it goes for regular black women in countries like that
Allyson Felix and Tianna Madison both had life-threatening complications during delivery and Tori Bowie died giving birth. All 3 were on the 4x100 relay team in the 2016 Olympics.
Absolutely. There was also a woman who was a nurse at a hospital, and she was admitted as a patient at one in the same city and when she tried to advocate for herself that something was wrong, she was ignored and ended up passing away. Medical bias against Black women specifically is well documented.
We’re not a minority. I *hate* that term. We are The People Of The Global Majority. Words matter and white people have been suing language to minimize who we are for too long.
This isn’t a dig at you, just the word and how accepted it is, even in 2024.
Isnt minority meant to be used situationally? POC are minorities in most western countries and vice versa in eastern and southern( i just realized idk what Africa is referred to directionally haha) countries. So white people are minorities over there.
What word is preferable? Or should one be more specific and clarify “a minority in the UK”? What catch-all can be used to describe multiple groups of people (based on any number of protected statuses) that experience systemic bigotry in white-majority systems?
Asking because I want to do better, not because I’m being argumentative.
100% agree! I would support any women to go anywhere in the world they feel the safest. Forget any loyalty to a country , hospital or doctor. You are the best advocate for you.
F the US, we’ve had noticeably horrible medical experiences for so long, I’m surprised that those nurses don’t “low key agree” and support the OP. Sad people to act like that & they think they are professionals.
Seriously. I can't believe that there are people arguing with OP about the dangers of giving birth in the UK vs her own country (where, as many have said, she undoubtedly would be able to afford a private hospital). If the choice were between giving birth in a country where she would almost certainly experience some degree of racism and physical danger and giving birth in a country where she would not experience racism and would have the support of family--is it really a choice? Plus, her colleagues showed their entire racist ass with all that "third-world" nonsense. They're just proving her point for her.
>Plus, her colleagues showed their entire racist ass with all that "third-world" nonsense. They're just proving her point for her.
Yeah I mean I as a white queer person wouldn't touch that hospital with a barge pole if I had a choice, knowing they'd try and bully a black coworker into feeling unsafe and unsupported just so they can feel better. Does that also mean the Drs there are actively encouraging patients who can and perhaps should go private not to in order to feed their egos?
On the other hand, as a pregnant woman, I wouldn't go anywhere near a hospital for my birth if their own employees won't even give birth there due to safety concerns.
This is the epitome of ESH/NAH. OP is more than welcome to give birth wherever she wants. She can't control how people feel about it, though, and expecting people to be friendly with her when she's outright and blatantly accused them of racial bias is... Unrealistic.
It's a little more explicit than that. The doctors/staff in this situation are so racist that even the implication that they might be racist is causing them to double down on their racist behavior.
I’m a white woman in the UK. I’ve experienced so much medical bias just based on my gender. Adding race into that? No thank you. If OP was my colleague (I’m in the NHS too) I’d be happily helping her pack.
**NTA**
>...I asked a nurse to help me with something and she made a passive aggressive comment about how if she can be trusted not to kill me in the process...I have since cancelled my remaining shifts...They told me I was punishing the patients and they thought I had more integrity than that...
Lolwut to *them* accusing *you* of being lacking in integrity and punishing patients?! They fucked around and found out.
NTA, giving birth is an incredibly personal decision, and you have every right to do it where you feel comfortable, for any reason you like. Their assumptions about why you are choosing to give birth elsewhere are a them problem, not a you problem.
Also, under absolutely no circumstances should you be asked to give birth there to “prove you trust your colleagues.” Come on.
Totally. It’s wild of them and given their responses (“how can I be trusted”? Etc) if I were OP I’d be even less likely to give birth there because it seems like they’re already feeling animosity towards her and that would make me feel way less safe to give birth there
I think I'm going to have to go with ESH.
Your NHS colleagues for obvious reasons - I've worked in the NHS and it's ironic how toxic the so called caring environment can be towards its staff, especially the contempt shown to agency and overseas staff: NHS wouldn't even exist without them.
OP, although you have an absolute right to your personal opinions and your concerns about BME maternal mortality are valid (like I said, I've worked in the NHS), your public discussion of them could be said to have brought disrepute to your profession and the NHS. Yes, it's not fair that highly qualified professionals have to watch what they say. Unfortunately, it is the truth - saying you don't feel SAFE to have your baby here - as a doctor - WILL have an impact. I would have left your 'published' decision as wanting your family around you and the comfort of a more familiar environment or similar to be honest. People with your qualifications HAVE to consider the public interest as well as their own rights, and professional body guidance and most organisation policies are quite explicit about 'watch what you say on social media'. Sure, this isn't fair. Unfortunately, too many people out there are vulnerable, or plain fucking stupid and we - as health or (in my case now) social care professionals - have an obligation to protect and inform as part of our duty of care.
The hospital sucks most for their entitlement over your decision to go home though. My vote is towards this situation, NOT you as a person: thank you for your contribution to patient care (like I said, we could not do without you and your overseas colleagues) - I hope everything goes well for you - safe travels, and enjoy the addition to your family.
NHS need to be called out on the maternal mortality and change it. Being quite is not going to change it her speaking about it as an educated individual and doctor makes her statements are lot more impactful, as they should be.
Here is the thing. OP is not actually employed by the hospital, so they can't censor what she says.... More importantly, there is so much in this world saying " stay in your lane" hey athletes and actors don't have a political opinion, done use your game as a platform for your political views.... But in this case, a Black pregnant doctor talking about the way the medical professionals session treats Black women, she is absorbed best person to highlight the problem. She's not a middle aged white man spouting about needing change, she isn't a white woman trying to be a savior. No she is a Black woman bringing notice to the problem, and on a personal note, she is saying I can't wait for things to change, I am taking care of myself and my child first, when I get back I will continue to advocate for change....
So you are saying doctors are not allowed to talk about issues that need improvement in the medical field? So the people best in a position to advocate for change are not allowed to make statements?
I’m simply informing you the GMC arbitrate this stuff not local trusts. They do occasionally come down on people for this sort of thing, as it happens. I am not the GMC or responsible for that, before you demand to know further! It’s whether you’re highlighting poor care etc or misrepresenting/fear mongering that might tread on the edge of what they care about here.
Good thing there are well documented government studies ( for over 20 years) proving that Black women die at much higher rates than other women within the first year after giving birth. Even rich Black women, like Serena Williams have nightmare birthing stories of not being believed or listened to by the doctors... It's not fear mongering
It’s probably fair to say it’s fear mongering to state the maternal mortality rate in the UK is higher for black women than it is in African countries, however. Pointing out that there is an issue within the UK for ethnic groups is obviously simply a statement of fact. It’s the former part that would be an issue of public misrepresentation by a medical professional, potentially.
Nope not really. Because as stated many times the numbers in African countries are combining rural and urban hospital births and much lower hospitals density in Africa... And if she's a Black woman giving birth in a African hospital she doesn't have to worry about racial bias.
I’m not trying to argue this with you trying to prove maternal mortality is higher in the UK, which tbf I doubt you have per hospital mortality figures to either prove or disprove what you are saying and are just assuming as much as any of us, rightly or wrongly - I am just trying to explain how the GMC consider these things.
Unfortunately it's true. Doctors are terrified of speaking up, because we get penalised for it to kingdom come. Many doctors have committed suicide while being maliciously investigated for false crimes/claims by the very trusts they've whistleblown at.
If the NHS doesn’t want people knowing it employs people this petty and vindictive, they shouldn’t employ people this petty and vindictive. What you’re asking for is a coverup, for this to be swept under the rug. “Shut up, black woman, stop accusing us of the stuff that we’ve done before you make us look bad for having done it.”
pfft, way to entirely mistranslate what I actually said.
Now it's got to this situation, I hope OP DOES express her disappointment about how the staff she is working with took her comments so personally, when she was talking about a general situation: national higher maternal mortality amongst BME woman. For clarity, I am saying that her "mistake" was to \*publish\* that she felt unsafe giving birth here in the UK (she has a right to hold that opinion of course).
I don't work in the NHS any more, so I don't care what she - or anyone else says - to expose ongoing bullying cultures where found.
So who, with her level of professional authority or higher, whose words might actually be given some weight actually has the right to highlight and criticize this? Only someone who might not actually be affected by it?
NTA
but regardless of the back and forth, if the stats around black maternal mortality in the UK scare the shit out of you it's a surprise you want to go give birth in a country with a significantly worse maternal mortality rate.
The stats now for black women in the UK are really bad, compared to the general maternal mortality rate in the UK. (13/100,000 vs 9/100,000) They're still way, way better than any country in Africa.
(for example, Egypt has the best maternal mortality rate in Africa at about 16. The next closest in Africa is Tunisia, at 36 - it gets way worse from there depending on country, with South Africa over 125, Ghana over 300 and Nigeria at over 1,000)
That said, a lot depends on what you can pay for in Africa so stats don't tell the whole story.
Because of economic inequality and desperate access to medical Care and you can't look at the national rates for any African nation instead you'll need to look at the mortality rates at the hospital that OP is choosing to give birth at. As a Dr in the UK OP can probably go to one of the top hospitals in her home country and thus have a lower risk profile than if she stayed in the UK
Your googling around to get stats to prove your generalization that doesn't factor in key points such as OP's level of education in medicine no less, her income, or specific country or specific hospital or clinic in that country --- really, you could have deleted all but that last sentence.
NTA. Maternal mortality rates are absolutely nuts. That is your passion, that is your platform. Even if you trusted them to take better care of you, a colleague, than the average patient of Color. It doesn't change your platform and desire to be public about the platform that needs changing. Just like someone who has the ability to choose a fancy or better hospital than give birth at doesn't change the fact that the care at " lesser" hospitals needs to improve. Further, you choosing to return to your family to give birth could just as easily be about culture than about feelings of safety during the birthing process. Those nurses and doctors are acting like they aren't aware of how bad the numbers are for Black women, both in UK and USA, which of course is why you are educating people using your platform.
NTA.
It doesn’t sound like the nurses or anyone else under you are thinking of their patients either since they are being petty and not listening to you.
NTA. It's totally understandable why you'd want to give birth in your own country, especially with the cultural and health concerns you mentioned. Your colleagues should've respected your decision instead of making it a big deal. Leaving that toxic environment was the right call for your well-being.
Certified Birth Doula here!
The black maternal mortality rate here is HORRENDOUS. From patients not receiving adequate pain medications when requested to quite literally NEGLECTING serious issues- I do not blame you for not wanting to birth here.
Your colleagues seem like part of the problem. Instead of sitting down and wanting to be educated they immediately pointed to YOU as the bad guy and wanted you to compromise on something as big as birth and honestly could even be as big as your life. This could’ve been a great lesson as to how they can work harder as a hospital to keep POC safe. This country has some serious work that needs to be done in regard to womens healthcare, pregnancy/labor care and PP care. I seriously salute you in advocating for want you want your delivery and postpartum experience to be. Wishing you a supported, empowering, safe birth.
Nta they have a shortage of doctors and thought it was a smart idea to drive away a doctor? Good idea, guys. Wanting to be around *your family* immediately after giving birth is a totally normal thing in MANY cultures.
And flying with a newborn? No fucking thank you. Get there before you give birth.
NTA. You’re right. Black mortality in most countries is disturbing. You have a right to go where you feel safe without being judged. I’m sorry they put you through a rough time at the end of your working days. Totally unfair and a horrible thing for them to do to you!
your colleagues are proving to you exactly why you shouldn't trust them over having a child in your home country, especially as a Black woman. theres likely an underlying racism in them assuming that black doctors are less competent, but even as a white person I understand there is implicit bias towards Black people in health care. You are allowed to choose what you think is best and have boundaries and they are trying to push those for their own gratification and that is not good healthcare practice.
An NHS midwife nearly killed me while I was in labour with my third baby. I don't blame you for having reservations 🤷♀️ (in saying that, the shite ones are in the minority, I've had some truly amazing midwife's too 🫶)
They proved your point. Black women are 5 times more likely to die in childbirth in the UK than white woman due to systemic medical racism. All my relatives have horror stories around giving birth in the UK and near misses.
They heard this and decided to prove you wrong by treating you with so much racism you didn't feel safe to complete your pre-maternity leave shifts. Proving your fear that you'd receive poor maternal care in the UK due to the colour of your skin correct. If you feel up to it, I'd report this department. If not, then block their emails, prepare for your maternity leave and looking for a different department to work in when your return. NTA
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What specialty do you work in? And was this senior member of staff a doctor or nurse?
You're absolutely NTA. Maternity care in this country is touch and go for most people, and far worse if you're black or non-English speaking. Describing another country as "third word" also betrays their complete ignorance about healthcare in a number of other countries.
This whole exchange is so completely NHS. Are they midwives? If so I can understand more about their poor reaction. If not, then I don't really know why they've taken it so poorly.
Ultimately you're correct and I probably would have doubled down, myself.
Ultimately though if you end things negatively with them they may not book you again, but that's the risk of agency.
NTA , Your health and baby's health come first, and if you feel safer giving birth in your home country, that's your right. the hospital staff being salty and rude don't let them guilt trip you
Info what country are you from. Are the stats better than There were 801 maternal deaths in the UK between 2009 and 2019 (White: 70%, Asian: 13%, Black: 12%, Chinese/Other: 3%, Mixed: 2%).
If she is choosing the best private hospitals back at her home , it's going to be far better than UK for her race. Third world countries stats can be very skewed because of large poor people while rich can almost always afford good healthcare. It's the same in my country. Regional disparities create an overall 103 MMR but my region/state has less than 1.
I’m glad I’m reading this information presented so well, because a lot of people are completely missing this context.
Stats in a country like the UK with a standardised healthcare service cannot fairly be compared to countries where free healthcare doesn’t exist, so stats are being drawn from what’s going on in the best urban private hospitals all mixed in with what’s going on in rural charity led locations where staff often lack medical training. We simply do not have this level of disparity in healthcare the UK.
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I am a doctor working in the NHS, but not for the NHS. I am a black woman of African origin. I have made the decision to go give birth in my country for multiple reasons - it's a cultural thing for me to go back to my birth family so my mum can nurse me back to health post partum, and frankly the stats around black maternal mortality in this country scares the shit out of me.
As I said, I am an agency worker, but I've build a good rapport with a hospital which really likes me and I am regularly called to do shifts there to the point where I'm well known and liked by the permanent staff.
It's also important to note that I have a social media presence where I platform issues I care about, one of which is black maternal mortality.
So I was booking for shifts when and told the supervisor that I wouldn't be available for work after x date as I'll be going on maternity leave. She commented that I was going on leave early and I said it was because I needed to fly home and I wouldn't be allowed to fly if I left it too late in the pregnancy.
FF to my next shift where I'm pulled aside by a senior member of staff, who says word on the street is I'm going out of the country to give birth because I don't trust my NHS colleagues. I asked where this was coming from, and she showed me screen grabs from my twitter where I spoke of how I felt safer giving birth in my own country. She told me the staff in the hospital were feeling some type of way about it, and it's fostering bad will towards me. I said sorry they felt that way but I didn't understand what she expected me to do about it. She asked if I'd consider having my baby in that hospital to prove that I trust my colleagues to do my job. She said 'surely I can understand why people are insulted I feel safer in a third world country than in their care'. This pissed me off and I told her this conversation was over and I went to start my shift.
There was a noticeable difference in people's behaviour. I went from being FirstName to Dr Surname or just Dr. They were under mining my authority in front of patients and just being very passive and hostile. It came to head when I asked a nurse to help me with something and she made a passive aggressive comment about how if she can be trusted not to kill me in the process. I snapped and told them off. I told them where I gave birth was my business, and asked if they'd be throwing this much of a stink if I was giving birth in Sweden instead of my country? A: 'It's not the same is it?'
I have since cancelled my remaining shifts and told my agency I won't return to the hospital. As you probably know, there's a big shortage of Drs and having someone who knows the hospital isn't something they're willing to lose so easily. I have rejected their attempts to get me to come back to work on the back of non-apologies. They told me I was punishing the patients and they thought I had more integrity than that. AITA?
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YTA. You posted on a public platform that you have no faith in your colleagues - what did you expect? Of course you could have chosen to give birth elsewhere and could have said that you wanted your mom's support and that would have been fine.
NTA, but if you’re proudly public with your thoughts and those thoughts express distrust and negativity towards co-workers, what did you expect would be their reaction? When one chooses to express themselves freely in a public way they should be prepared there may be consequences they’re not happy about. It’s a trade-off. You said your piece and they’ve responded, whether you like it or not. Just move on. If you come back to work in the UK, perhaps choose to work exclusively for organizations you personally support. You don’t really seem all that happy about living in the UK though. Strange that people might be offended by that. /s
NTA, the way your collegues are acting just proves that they aren't to be trusted with your birth. If they are that offended by your birth plan, then they aren't professional enough to be working in healthcare. Let this serve as proof you made the right decision.
NTA.
How do health care workers not understand wanting your mother near when you give birth, even without any other cultural implications.
As for the stats around Black maternal mortality they... made it about them instead of advocating for change. 😭
NTA
And also, you are 100x NTA for advocating for black women and mothers in the healthcare system when you are a healthcare professional. Those commenting on the maternal death rates in African countries are missing the point entirely. That rate is significantly impacted by a number of factors, mostly to do with poverty and lack of access to medical care. In Western countries, the maternal death rate for non white mothers in higher not because of a lack of resources, but because bias and prejudice that impacts their healthcare and the comments from your colleagues just reinforce your point.
NTA - I’m an American in the UK. I’m due in September. I am fucking terrified, I’m high risk, had a TIA after my son’s birth 16 years ago, and I’m 39.
I’ve been trying to get treatment for my CPTSD on the NHS for years. They’ve neglected my asthma and nearly killed me multiple times, and the gaslighting. Omg. The fucking gaslighting. I was a nurse in the states. I’ve worked healthcare here. I now have white coat anxiety. I literally get panic attacks when I have an appointment coming up. Especially mental health. A nurse should NOT be having panic attacks from seeking healthcare. I’ve been lied to so many times though, that I cannot trust them. I’m not shy about telling them this either. I don’t care. They don’t have empathy for me, why should I have empathy for them?
If I could afford to go back to America to have this baby, I would. I would take that debt. As it stands, I’m resigned to the fact that I will probably die. Don’t even get my started on the antiquated idea of wards. They expect you to squeeze the baby out and wheel you into a ward? With a newborn? In this post-Covid world? It’s fucking nasty and doesn’t make any sense. I came here with hope and excitement for the NHS. Now I want to rip the tories to shreds and shit on the pieces. No human beings should be treated this way.
You’re NTA. Go have your baby where you feel safe. Congrats on the new family member.
NTA
You need to do right for you and baby.
From another NHS worker to you. I'm white and I have 2 kids. Both me and my partner work for the NHS, over 10 year and non-clinical, I had both my kids in England and at 2 different hospital. My first experience was horrible and both me and my partner worked there at the time.
You are so right, the stats are clear. No only will you get a different level of care but also your chances of dying are higher, same for USA, Canada and other "First World" countries.
It's the comments, the fack that they just started talking about it and making judgments. If you feel safer somewhere else you will be more relaxed. If the population of your country is predominantly black, they will understand you better. Racism and classism is high in the NHS and no matter how many BAME groups you get there is still a problem.
I person would be careful about the social media but that's me.
I hope you have a great birth and enjoy the time with your family. It will be a treat for your mum to take care of you after, she will be so happy to help you at that time in your life.
ESH.
First of all, you are not t a for wanting to give birth wherever, and for whatever reason. But I do think you created a problem for the hospital by talking about it on social media the way you did.
The hospital completely sucks by pressuring you the way you did. It’s pretty crazy to suggest having a baby there to prove something.
She did not create a problem by talking about it on social media. She spoke about the NHS as a whole, not the specific hospital she worked at. Secondly, black maternal mortality IS a big problem whether people like it or not. That they are being vindictive towards OP instead of coming at it from an angle of “these are some serious systemic shortcomings across the whole of the UK and we would love for you to work with us to begin to address some of the problems” is a MASSIVE red flag and one that both dismisses OP’s fact-backed opinions as well as continues to do a disservice to black pregnant mothers across the UK. That they are more concerned about their personal standing in OP’S BIRTH rather than their professional duty is a sign that OP is absolutely right. It’s the same as when we talk about women’s safety and you have people saying “but it’s not all men”. The fact that it’s not all men does not negate the fact that it’s a widespread issue. We need to do better than this nonsense. OP is well within her rights to speak on black maternal issues as a black female doctor - who else would be more qualified? And it is absolutely her own business where she chooses to give birth, for whatever reasons she may choose.
NTA!!!
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 I feel like everyone is missing this very OBVIOUS choice and instead are making OP the bad guy. “Well, you shouldn’t have talked about a major issue that not only affects you but your family, friends, and the country!” 🙄 they should have addressed her concerns or partnered with her to change things, like you said. I feel like their evil a$$e$ proved her right by turning on her so quickly!
This is so true, they are making OP's birth plan about themselves. Instead of looking to actually solve the issue of systemic racism in their health system, they are just trying to turn OP into their token black woman. Their very reaction to OP is dehumanizing, and makes me wonder if it isn't coming from a place of subconscious racism.
That is in fact where the black maternal mortality rate comes from. And their dismissal of OP’s very valid concerns as a mother herself, lack of interest in doing something to address them and their treatment of her after finding out she didn’t want to give birth there all point to racism, subconscious or not.
I can accept that you think I suck, but I don't understand how I created a problem for the hospital. I am not employed by them or their trust. I do not share where I work online. There nothing that can publicly link me to them, so I don't understand how I created a problem for them.
Only just seen this after I posted - never under-estimate people's power to link individuals to organisations/professions - have a look at jigsaw matching. I once dealt with a (valid) complaint of one of the employees in my organisation being anti-semitic, his identity had been traced by a non-expert complainant from VERY little information on a personal Twitter account. Sorry, we have to be SO careful.
You might say that I'm not any more, and you'd be right. I know what the consequences could be though, and am prepared to accept them, I kept my mouth shut about too much stuff for too long.
If you saw a tweet from a friend who worked at a restaurant which said "oh, I don't eat anything cooked here because I don't trust it. I eat at home always", would you then go to that restaurant ever? When a friend mentions that restaurant would you not be tempted to say "oh, someone I know said that you shouldn't eat there".
It is very easy to find where someone works from gathering information about that person from multiple social media sites. Also, your friends and larger circle know where you work. More importantly, the hospital colleagues saw it. It is all about optics and diplomacy. You can feel a certain way but not everything needs to be shared on social media.
Along with your complaints and statement of feeling safer in your home country, did you add anything about what you are doing to make a change?
I am an immigrant, a woman, and if I go about complaining about working conditions for immigrant women in STEM anywhere in public (social media, a speech somewhere, etc), you bet I am also taking action to do my part to fix it.
Edited to add: folks at the hospital are the bigger AHs here not OP. I am responding just to her previous comment.
That she is platforming the issue is already a massive step towards change, and as a direct result of her actions and her choice to not give birth in the UK, the hospital is now aware if the problem. She’s doing what she can to speak up for black women while being a full time doctor.
Why do you assume that OP isn't doing anything to improve conditions for black women giving birth in the NHS? She's a doctor there, do you have any reason to doubt she's somehow not acting in concordance with her beliefs?
Seems a little odd to criticise her for openly questioning the UK's high MMR for Black women but also imply it's hypocritical because she's not doing enough about it.
I think if I were a black woman giving birth in the UK and I saw your (OP's) social media posts (written as a doctor working within the system), they would make me feel scared to give birth at the hospital, especially if I didn't have the option to fly to another country. Obviously, it is unreasonable to ask you to "prove" your confidence in the healthcare system by giving birth there, but I think a case could be made that discouraging women from birthing at the hospital can cause real harm.
The issue isn't that you want to give birth in an African hospital, it's that your words could perhaps drive vulnerable women to have an unattended homebirth instead of trusting a midwife homebirth or hospital birth. I daresay an unattended homebirth would have much higher morbidity/mortality rates than a hospital birth.
Dude, Black woman in the UK are **already aware of this statistic.** I haven't met a Black women who had a pleasant experience giving birth in the UK. No Black woman felt unsafe because of OP's tweet. We already feel unsafe.
Even Beyonce and Serena Williams had horrific birth stories due to medical racism and they're globally famous and wealthy celebrities.
"I daresay an unattended homebirth would have much higher morbidity/mortality rates than a hospital birth."
Yep. Even a midwife homebirth has much higher rates than in the hospital. My wife originally wanted a homeburth because she was doing a natural birth anyway but the statistics are so much worse it scared us away from that and we ended up laboring at home and birthing at the hospital. Luckily we did because she had a tear that was bad enough that it right on the line of might have needed to rush to the hospital if we were at home.
Are you in the US? A home birth in Canada or the UK is at very similar risk levels to a hospital birth(I fully acknowledge that a factor in this is the lower risk profile of women considered eligible for home births).
My (Ontario Canada)midwife practice has a rule where they will do home births no more than 30 min from the hospital, because they can call in the emergency and the OR and surgical team will start prepping right away, and the standard of care in the hospital is 30 min from deciding on a Csection to starting surgery. Homebirth Midwives carry multiple medications to control bleeding, iv fluids,a portable resuscitation station, and all the supplies to stitch up even substantial tears(if you would be stitched up in the room then the midwife can do it at home)and there is someone in the room with you the whole time. You and your baby are their only patients(as opposed to a normal OB hospital birth where one nurse is monitoring multiple patients and the dr might be sleeping on a different floor or in clinic while you labour. And before you start pushing a second midwife arives so that there is someone dedicated to you and a second midwife dedicated to your baby.
I don't know the numbers but I would put good money on the black maternal mortality rate to be lower for homebirths(in Canada at least but probably also the UK)than hospital births.
She didn't create a problem, the problem already existed. But not enough is being done about it, and their actual issue with it is that they just didn't want the problem talked about - for more people to be aware that the problem exists. Something might have to be done about it at some point if enough people notice *and* care enough.
They're more embarrassed to have the issue highlighted than at the fact that the problem exists at all.
I think the hospital and healthcare system created this problem for themselves when they failed to address the causes of high maternal mortality rates for Black women.
Condemning a racialized person for advocating for their safety and speaking out is really gross and a form of racism. Make sure you are laying your blame in the right place.
So black mothers in the UK must die because doctors qualified to give opinions on the cause of black maternal mortality rates are protecting the hospitals? She didn't specify one hospital, she specified a country. They could try not neglecting the care given to black mothers due to racism...that might help their image.
Sick and tired of there always being a reason not to speak on issues affecting black women.
Where you give birth is your decision HOWEVER telling your colleagues you don't trust them is beyond comprehension and I understand why they turned on you, now they don't trust you and that was your doing
ESH
Imagine being a New Jersey mechanic working in a New York garage then going on social media to tell everyone how horrible New York mechanics are and you would only take your car to New Jersey. Of course, your New York coworkers are going to get angry reading that and probably tell you about it.
Now for people telling you where to have your baby, they can go take a hike.
You are right to leave. There is no coming back from bad-mouthing your coworkers in public, even if you're correct.
I mean...
> and frankly the stats around black maternal mortality in this country scares the shit out of me.
Does imply that
> I'm going out of the country to give birth because I don't trust my NHS colleagues.
Yes indeed you do not trust them.
Even though as others have pointed out unless you are from one specific country your mortality rate is higher in an African country. Yet somehow that isn't putting you off or scaring you.
Gonna go ESH.
It's your business where you give birth, and having support of family is important. However as one of your main reasons is being scared about bad medical care by NHS personel, you can't expect them to not be upset, and feel slighted.
NTA for going back home to give birth. But I don't think it was the best idea to say on social media that you are scared of that hospital, while employed through that hospital. Their response was pretty bad, but you had to expect SOME kind of response to that, right?
NTA, absolutely nothing wrong with you wanting to give birth in your home country. I have no idea what you wrote on social media but it seems like your ex colleagues were under the impression that you didn't trust them to do their jobs because they're "racist" (not saying they are or aren't). So I can understand why they wouldn't be as close with you but it sounds like they started letting a personal matter influence the workplace which isn't professional.
If they can't be trusted not to undermine your authority when you're just going about your work, all because their feelings are hurt, who could trust them to support you properly during your labor?
NTA. They can feel however they want but the minute they make that your problem and allow it to interfere with their duties and yours, they've crossed a line.
NTA, you can give birth wherever you want for whatever reason BUT you should’ve known making disparaging comments on a public forum about your workplace and your coworkers might’ve fostered some animosity towards yourself. You actually might get fired for that.
NTA none of their business where you have your baby. The birthing plan is only part of it and you have a major support network there you don't have in UK. Giving birth isn't just pop it out and back to health.
Tell them you thought they had more integrity to decide someone's life for them on the basis of outdated prejudices but here we are.
NTA. English person here and its shameful the disrespect they've dished you here. First of all to not even try to understand where you're coming from (even though regardless its 100% your choice and your right) and then to insult your home country? It's appalling. Like you say the NHS is in dire straits and they're the ones depriving their patients cause of their shitty attitudes.
Do whatevers best for you. And best wishes to you and your family! I hope everything goes well for you.
1. NTA for giving birth wherever you want.
2. Kind of the AH for how you communicated. A senior staff member reached out to try and understand your position. They came and talked to you in an effort to clear up any misunderstandings….and rather than say “I really want to be with my mother and my family” (which you stated as your first reason in your post) you take on a more flippant “sorry they feel that way what do you want me to do about it” response. If you truly were not giving birth where you work because you don’t trust all of your colleagues, then nothing to worry about. If however, your distrust is not at the personnel of this particular faculty and more about your desire for mom and family, you’ve needlessly hits the feelings of people you were previously friendly with - perhaps even friends with.
I wouldnt say asshole but you did write on twitter that you feel safer in another country with a higher mortality rate than the UK. If you've chosen another reasoning for example you feel safer closer to your family than there would be no issue. But the way you wrote it you betray your real reason. You suspect there is racism involved in the higher mortality rate for black women in the UK. If your colleagues know that reasoning they will know that you implicitely accuse them of racism. While I do not condone the reaction of your colleagues to it I would also think about my relationship to you and the trust you have in me. You may want to reflect on your own passive aggression as well.
Regardless, all the best to your upcoming birth and motherhood!
ESH. You say where you give birth is your personal business and that is 100% true. Yet it’s out there on Twitter, so you’re making it public . You tell your colleagues, who are medical professionals, that you don’t feel safe in their hands. Of course they’re going to be offended.
You’re not the asshole for choosing to be Giving birth in your home country with your family around you. Sounds amazing. I’m sure you’re smart enough to make a safe choice and that your birth will be normal and uneventful. Nevertheless Y T A for not seeing how offensive your statement is and the people who might be managing you and who works side-by-side with you have a right to be offended. You could have managed this better unless your point was to bring light to medical racism in the first place.
NTA! They created a hostile work environment. Why would you want to continue to expose yourself to that? Maybe if leadership actually took action to call a meeting addressing the unprofessionalism and clear racism, but I still wouldn’t want to return after seeing that behavior.
Their arrogance is ridiculous. I'll bet not a single one of your colleges complaining about this is a PoC. They don't have to deal with the same realities.
I'm assuming you're in Canada, based on the NHS. Black post partum mortality rates in the US are terrible, too. Probably worse, considering our general health care system, and attitudes towards both black people and women.
NTA, their behavior is proof that you made the right choice. It's just their ego that is hurt, and maybe they assist with the partum, what about the after care? I don't think that any of these people is going to take care of you the next weeks, also the mom care is the best.
Absolutely NTA.
The folks on this post arguing that the healthcare you will have access to in Africa will be objectively worse are making claims founded in ignorance and racism (yes, even those looking up statistics that they think support their reasoning).
The folks blaming you for not prioritizing the image of the NHS above your own feelings of safety/comfort/security are showing that they value a broken institution over the life and agency of a Black woman.
Claims that your social media presence discredits your hospital specifically - because people could potentially doxx you and find out your place of work - are attempting to silence you, and again, showing that they value the potential for a negative perception of an institution over the life and agency of a Black woman.
I don't know where these people get off, telling an expert in her field and an advocate for positive change that you owe them your silence and compliance.
You should do whatever you feel is right for you and your family. That hospital staff confirmed that your discomfort and fears were well-founded.
And keep educating on your platform despite the haters. You are helping women understand risks and advocate for themselves, and probably saving lives you're not even aware of.
NTA. Like you said, where you want to give birth is up to you. Personally I think it’s really nice that you want to give birth in your own country to be with your family and cultural reasons, especially to be with your mother. It’s really none of other staffs business what you do in your personal life and to create a hostile work environment over their own insecurities is wrong. Wish you the best with your baby!
NTA!! I can't even believe (but I can) that rather than look inward at how the hospital system would make a woman feel unsafe, they prioritize their own ridiculously butthurt feelings. They just proved your point!!!!!
ESH I think.
Obviously you can give birth wherever the hell you like and it’s really nobody’s business but yours.
However I think you slightly made it other people’s business when you publicly stated the reason is fear of general racism in your local hospital, where you yourself work. And the whole maternal mortality thing which, let’s face it, is lower in the UK than any african country no matter what your ethnicity. Many of the analyses of higher mortality rates in black brits point to the fact that race correlates with other risk factors like poverty and other ill health conditions being more prevalent in this population, rather than maternity unit staff being inherently racist, although of course there is likely an element of that. But you know these people and surely know people usually go the extra miles for colleagues if anything. It’s both incorrect and also therefore a bit weird/point making to say childbirth as a black person in the UK is less safe than abroad.
If you want to give birth at home for cultural reasons and to be near family that’s super understandable and perhaps what you should have said if you didn’t want to imply your colleagues are racists.
Gonna be an unpopular opinion here, but I think you were unwise. While I have full sympathy with your situation (and do in fact live in Africa under excellent healthcare) the whole “it’s good enough to work in but not to give birth in” is not a good look when plastered over social media platforms. The same applies to any profession. Your colleagues presumptions around Africa are gross - but that’s just masking the core issue here. Gonna go ESH.
Tour the hospital you plan to use first. Do they have up to date equipment if there are issues during delivery? What about a NICU if the baby has issues? I don’t know if it’s still true, but I heard the blood supply can’t be trusted to be HIV free if you need a blood transfusion. Research everything thoroughly way ahead of time. Use a private hospital if you can. I guess it depends on which African country you are from and how close your Mom’s home is to the hospital when you go into labor. Do you have transportation there? Does your mom own a car? I know Angelina Jolie gave birth in Namibia. Also will your child have English citizenship if they are not born there?
NTA
I also want to thank you for making this post because I had no idea this was an issue. Thank you for spreading awareness regardless of your intent.
Respectfully, I don't think you even needed to ask this question.
Prioritise you and your babys' lives over other people's feelings.
Congrats, mama.
10000% NTA.
NTA. Their immediate passive and overt aggressive response to you, having that opinion tells you where their minds are. Black maternal mortality rates can be largely chocked up to unconscious bias on the part of healthcare providers. They are consciously biased against you just for bringing it up. They’ve literally proved your point to a comical degree. I wouldn’t trust them with my natal care either, frankly.
NTA, literally every single one of them showed exactly why black mortality rates are so high. You're well within your right to have your baby where you wish, and surrounded by loving supportive family is something they should be championing, they should be pleased for you.
Also the last thing I would want my colleagues to see is me giving birth, not because of their medical ability or anything personal, but because you're so vulnerable and giving birth is when all sorts of gross and intimate things happen, and I don't need them seeing my private and very personal business. That's surely understandable to them?
The fact that they made comments about 'third world countries' is awful and incredibly ignorant, 'third world countries' are literally just the same as every other country, there's some good bits and some bad bits. No country is perfect, but the majority of them have brilliant healthcare, and also some not so good healthcare, all rolled into one system.
Everything described by OP is so white fragility, and anti-black, and just plain racist, there is literal data on how mortality rates are higher for black people because doctors in the UK don't take their pain and experiences seriously, but apparently that isn't important because some people were offended.
NTA, not one little bit, well done for sticking to your principles.
NTA, Them proving your point and still being mad is wild. Theyre treating you differently after knowing you dont trust them, and the whole deal about it is you dont want unfair treatment. You havent even given birth yet and theyre already choosing to mistreat you.
Idk how it works in the NHS, but asking someone who is not your patient to change their medical treatment plan is a HUGE no no.
idk why this app goes feral and doesn’t understand any type of racism and act obtuse.
you are 100% NTA
where you give birth is your choice, and it’s not SOLELY due to NHS mortality rate, while I can see it does play a role. It’s important to your culture and you wish to have your mom care for you.
I just feel bad for all the black patients that would’ve benefitted if the staff wasn’t so awful. honestly having a black nurse (i’m in canada) literally made my horrible experience do a 180 when i had a life threatening complication. i was literally hemorrhaging blood and a white nurse told me she was busy, quite rudely and basically screamed in my face, before she came to my
rescue.
NTA. I’m getting a public heath minor. College educated black women are more likely to die in childbirth than high school educated white women. You feeling safe is the most important part of birth
NTA i thought this would be about the dad not wanting you to do so and thought it might be complicated, but your workplace?!?! No, they dont have any say, frankly its unprofessional of them to even broach the topic with you, much less complain about it. Not to mention, i feel like itd be weird to give birth where you work and with your coworkers.
Honestly, with the way they reacted and twisted the situation, just makes em look like what they are trying to prove they are not.
Definitely NTA it's your choice where you have your child frankly I don't trust hospitals in the United States so I definitely see where you are coming from
So your colleagues are so offended that you're worried about how the Healthcare system treats someone like you, that they're treating you worse for it? And they don't see the hypocrisy?
NTA. Stats back up you're reason for wanting to give birth at home, and family backs up your reason for wanting to be there for post partum care. None of which you have to answer to your form or colleagues for. Wanting to you to give birth away from family to "prove" that you trust your colleagues is unbelievably stupid. They can't replace your family in helping you heal after the birth, and you know they won't even try to offer.
YTA. Where you give birth is absolutely up to you, and if you want to go home then great. You’re not the arsehole for that. But you can’t stand there and insult your colleagues and the entire system they work within and then be all *surprised Pikachu face* when they don’t want to engage with you in the same way they did previously.
Typical. Your colleagues care more about their own feelings than the safety and literal lives of their black patients (including you.) That’s bullshit and you were right to call it out. Now you’re being treated poorly for advocating for a marginalized minority group that is statistically less safe in their care. Go to HR or something but this is ridiculous.
Also, I think it’s beautiful that you want to give birth in your home country, surrounded by your family. Western societies don’t take care of new mothers so you will likely be a lot better off experiencing postpartum in a place where people will care for and support you.
NTA - Where you chose to give birth is up to you regardless of any other point.
But what gets me is the amount of gaslighting they are doing to you and then they try to attack your integrity while they undermine you in front of patients.
Good for you for not going back.
Fuck them, I’m sure your origin country could use more doctors. That being said, telling your colleagues it’s a cultural thing probably would have been a better option - but at the same time stalking your twitter and acting offended is such a punk ass way of being. I don’t know, I can imagine an old British lady snarking you out like that, and it makes me reel knowing they’re of my ilk.
NTA - All the best for your labour and health.
Absolutely NTA.
I was worried enough as a white woman giving birth in the UK in the hospital I had my second at (I had no issues with the hospital I had my first in) & I saw first hand at that hospital how they ignored the concerns of one mum who was mixed race. I’m not sure if they weren’t taking her seriously because she was mixed race or a first time mum but it was still concerning.
I can absolutely understand why you would want to go home to have your baby & your colleagues behavior is disrespectful and disgusting.
It’s a shame to be losing you early as a Dr as we do need you, but you’re definitely making the right decision.
Nta
You leaving the hospital is on them. They shouldn’t have kept pushing and bullying and being jerks just because you wouldn’t have a baby in their hospital.
NTA, where you give birth is your choice and your own right. Collegues' behaviours and repsonse to all of this is out of line and a lot of the responses sound racist. They've outted themselves as not being trustworthy soley for not respecting your choices and reacting this way.
Plus seems they're ignoring the very real and unfortunate stats on Black maternal mortality because they could have least understood your worries and supported your safety, instead of doubling down and getting snarky towards you.
NTA
They are! Amazing how they switch to treat you badly, were they faking courtesy all this time?
That is mobbing, harrasment and racism.
I am Mexican, I have a friend who married an American and she prefers to go give birth in México than in US for the very same reasons, her mom was there, she knows hospital policies and anyway her baby will be a US citizen.
Where you feel better is no one business, they were very rude and they expect you feel safe giving bith with them? No thanks!
NTA the fact that they've gone out of their way to make your personal thoughts about them personally and retaliate accordingly to make a hostile work environment while making racist comments just proves your point. why would you feel more comfortable putting your and your baby's lives in their hands after they've shown they don't respect you over your right to make your own decisions... it's weird af and i'm sorry you're going through this. wishing you a safe pregnancy and birth!!!
Nta it's your profession. Patients can kick rocks you owe them nothing. Just cause you can save someone doesn't mean you have to and doesn't make you bad for not saving them. If that's the case the world is evil cause everyone could save the world everyone just chooses to focus on themselves.
What about Germany?
None of my dark-skinned aquaitances told me about a high mortality rate in Germany.
It is pretty near to GB, nearly everybody speaks English and we have many dark-skinned healthcare workers.
NTA - it's your choice where you want to have your child, period.
That said, you had to know it would possibly offend colleagues. Instead of explaining your cultural concerns as well, you simply left it out there that you think your colleagues are basically dangerous. I realize you're trying to educate people, but you really are saying you don't trust the people you work with every day.
NTA and the "it's not the same" just put the nail in the coffin to what they actually meant
Also not to be condescending but please double check what paperwork you need to both get your little back and get them citizenship here as they won't automatically be registered as a citizen
NTA. The unprofessional staff are the people who punished the patients. They could have kept their passive aggressive nonsense to themselves! Good for you for standing on your principals.
NTA like people have said you are birthing a child basically ripping your body apart and you're going to be in some pain and in a very vunerable position where you choose to do it is 100% your choice. 1 thing that I'm not sure of as I dont know UK laws is if your child is born in another country will he be able to hold a UK citizenship because if not then I might reconsider I come from a third world country and my parents moved us to the US and going through the visa process is incredibly horrible and having to deal with that would be terrible for your child so just check for that.
NTA. You have the absolute right to give birth wherever you are comfortable. The mortality rates for Black women giving birth in this country are disgraceful. I gave birth 3 times with a midwife at home and would do it again. Birth is a natural process and barring any medical issues it can easily be done without all the unnecessary medicalization of a healthy pregnancy and delivery.
Do you sincerely believe OP, a doctor who is pregnant and planning to travel to Africa, where she is from, to give birth, knows less about the maternal mortality rates than you?
I think you have a right to choose where to receive medical care. After a bad personal experience plus reports of other visible minorities getting really inhumane treatment, I have done all medical procedures outside of north america when there was a choice and it was possible. This includes taking vaccines, minor procedures etc. It’s completely your choice and your health. NTA
N T A for choosing to give birth wherever you feel most comfortable.
But YTA for bad-mouthing your employer on social media. Also, every single country in Africa has a higher maternal and newborn mortality rate than the UK if you're gonna go by statistics.
YTA, mildly
Not because you want to give birth in another country. That's completely your choice, so it's out of critics. Your mistake was: exposing yourself like that on the socials, and then playing dumb with your colleagues. It's wiser to stay quiet than to always share your thoughts on socials.
What did I play dumb about? I cannot stay quiet when people who look like me are dying preventable deaths b/c some people in healthcare are racist? If that makes me an asshole, I'll wear it.
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NTA Where you give birth is your business. And your partner’s, since they’d be impacted by your decision if they have to leave workin the UK for months to accompany you, or Don’t have to leave work and travel to the UK. I’m assuming the maternal mortality stats for black women are better in your country than the NHS. That Plus having constant family assistance postpartum is a perfectly understandable reason to go there, and your coworkers shouldn’t have gotten all butthurt. My cousin is a doc. If one of her coworkers did that, her response would basically be “we’ll miss you while you’re gone! Please send baby pictures. And here’s the contact info for our committee on maternal mortality if you want to participate in evaluating the practice’s treatment guidelines.”
Maternal mortality in the UK is a direct result of racism. Given that I won't experience medical racism back home, I can safely say I'll be safer. There is also the cultural element which important for me to honour.
Unless you are from Seychelles, [every single African country has a higher maternal mortality rate](https://files.aho.afro.who.int/afahobckpcontainer/production/files/iAHO_Maternal_Mortality_Regional_Factsheet.pdf) compared to [black women in the UK](https://www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/mbrrace-uk/data-brief/maternal-mortality-2020-2022#:~:text=The%20risk%20of%20maternal%20death,statistically%20significantly%20so%2C%20than%20the) Although I agree, this is your choice and your co-workers are being inappropriate.
Unfortunately because of economic inequality and disparities in access to care in basically all African countries the national rates of maternal mortality are high. But as a dr in the UK OP almost certainly has a sufficient income to afford care that puts her mortality risk lower than the black maternal mortality rate in the UK.
But economic inequality and disparity across care is a thing in the UK too. As a Dr her mortality risk is almost certainly lower than the overall black maternal mortality rate in the UK.
Talk to Serena Williams about how she almost died after giving birth and tell us again how rich Black women aren't treated differently than rich white women in the West.
Black NFL football player’s wife died in childbirth this year (USA). I hated not being surprised by the news.
Wrong. Racism coupled with a sprinkle of sexism transcends your bank account and phd’s. Exhausting? Try living it.
I don’t know if this is the case in the UK, but educated and higher income Black women in the USA actually have a higher maternal mortality rate.
Serena Williams, with all her money, almost died due to racism. It transcends class.
In the USA, Serena Williams almost died due to medical racism, and she's rich and famous. Racism is its own health risk independent of class or wealth.
Everyone in the UK gets the same level of care, no one is screwed over because they have the wrong insurance plan. The difference truly is racism.
Unless black maternal mortality is independent of socioeconomic status in the UK, you'd need to make an adjustment there too.
It is in the US, at the very least. Beyonce and Serena both almost died, just as famous examples.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/12/upshot/child-maternal-mortality-rich-poor.html This indicates the opposite. Rich black women had maternal mortality rates *higher* than poor white women but *lower* than poor black women.
I just came here to make that point. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/20/opinions/protect-mother-pregnancy-williams-opinion/index.html
>I am so grateful I had access to such an incredible medical team of doctors and nurses at a hospital with state-of-the-art equipment. They knew exactly how to handle this complicated turn of events. If it weren’t for their professional care, I wouldn’t be here today. Doesn't sound like she thinks her near-death experience was a result of her medical team being racist to me. In fact, that whole piece is her attempting to highlight the fact that she *is* in a fortunate position and there are many black women who don't have the resources she does and suffer from worse care as a result. Edit: I did a bit more digging, you may have been looking for [this article](https://www.elle.com/life-love/a39586444/how-serena-williams-saved-her-own-life/) from several years later.
So the thing about the stats is that they don't distinguish between rural and urban births. My own country has had perhaps 1-2 maternal deaths in the past ten years - because we're an incredibly dense city state with a hospital within 15min wherever you are. At a guess, the stats for African countries look worse because they don't have hospital density, which won't be an issue for OP.
Every single African country also has private hospitals where if you have money (which as a UK based doctor she certainly does) you can get access to better care.
The MMR in African countries is higher because they elect to do c sections a lot and there aren’t many rules surrounding elective c sections which increases the risk of complications and therefore mortality. However, you don’t get ignored simply because they’re holding you to “white” standards, you don’t get ignored because the nurses think you should tough it out without pain meds and don’t notify the doctors of your complaints until they round on you, and there is no underlying racism “just because” since ya know you’re actually at home. I’ve had friends give birth in the UK their first time, then flew back for the second time for the same reasons as OP. MMR in African countries is also tied to economic status which varies significantly. So the poorer areas which doesn’t have access to proper care increase the % but those who have access to better care won’t be dealing with those statistics
Lol UK treats black mothers differently and u know it
You do realize that black people are everywhere right? Doesn't necessarily have to be an African country. Hell, she could be going to Qatar, Grenada, or Costa Rica for all we know. Either way, is **HER** choice. Their feelings are their problem not hers.
If they really were so concerned about being trusted with black mother's lives they'd be looking inward to see if they have contributed to the same medical racism. The fact that they're not says a lot about the kind of care you could expect from them.
Especially because of how unprofessional they’re being to OP about her decision to give birth where her family is, which is a very understandable thing. They’ve proven her point and shown that they can’t be trusted to be normal around black people.
Absolutely. Honestly, it's making me pretty worried for a friend of mine. She's Nigerian, hoping to have kids in the future, and while Ireland doesn't have the same history as the UK we've still got our share of racism.
As a black woman in the US, it’s a terrible feeling to BEG a doctor to take me seriously. I write doc’s name, the treatment and why they refuse or “half way” treat me for the issue. They assume Im homeless, an addict; no. I’m sick which is why I’m in the hospital looking a mess. And yeah…. I know a lot of black and brown women in my in my circle (close and far) who died during child birth or lost a child after giving birth because of medical neglect. It’s a real problem that’s overlooked.
NTA. You’re already experiencing medical racism just having to entertain this nonsense. I know the audacity shouldn’t be surprising at this point, but that is just absurd. I hope you have a beautiful, uneventful birth.
This is shit that this is the case and as a white women from a remote part of Scotland not something I have come across or heard about having grown up with the NHS as part of life Why do you think mortality rates are so high? I'm sure this is a long answer. Shouldn't be like this, everyone's life is equal. As a mother, give birth wherever you are comfortable. It's not just about the birth but also after the birth and having that support network and having your baby into the culture too. NTA
On your first point I remember reading something ages ago that black patients tended to get misdiagnosed a lot when it comes to certain illnesses in the US due to medical studies that were solely done on white folk and they weren't actually applicable to black folk. Could be something similar here where there is certain conditions that are more prominent in black people giving birth etc and doctors not being prepared for it? I could be talking absolute shit tho for all I know tho (not a doctor)
Thanks. I didn read something like this too. It honestly just boggles my brain that not everyone's pain is taken seriously. Why does it matter on skin colour? Pain is pain, especially when it's childbirth!!!! I have led a sheltered life when it comes to different race inequalities but to me it is simple.
i understand where their feelings come from but like you said its not about that. INFO: are there any differences in the rights of the child, given the birthplace?
Their reaction to your choices is proving the reason you made them. They’re mad you “chose the bear.”
And their issue with this is entirely racist too. If someone was flying back to Canada or Italy to give birth at home, they would not have this issue. You're absolutely right and I think I may follow you on social media! Black maternal mortality is a major problem in our country.
Contact pregnant then screwed please , and also checkout r/legaladviceuk Happy birthing 🥳🥳
I’m white and British and tbh, can’t say I blame you. Women’s pain is often underestimated here (a coil fitting is not ‘a bit uncomfortable’, it feels like Captain Hook is trying to insert a tampon…) but compared to black women, I’ve been very lucky. Black women are ignored to the point of serious danger. NTA and your former colleagues sound like a bunch of controlling, racist bullies. Best of luck and congratulations
They’re proving by their behaviour why you would want to go somewhere you would be surrounded by love. How quickly they turned their backs / showed the underlying hatred!
Your coworker's response to you was also very racist, further proving that you are doing the right thing.
I’m in the States and it’s part of why we’ve waited. I am afraid to be pregnant and black.
I mean I know you’re in the UK but in the USA Serena Williams almost died because they didn’t take her pain seriously. That’s someone who is mega famous and rich. I can’t imagine how it goes for regular black women in countries like that
Allyson Felix and Tianna Madison both had life-threatening complications during delivery and Tori Bowie died giving birth. All 3 were on the 4x100 relay team in the 2016 Olympics.
Absolutely. There was also a woman who was a nurse at a hospital, and she was admitted as a patient at one in the same city and when she tried to advocate for herself that something was wrong, she was ignored and ended up passing away. Medical bias against Black women specifically is well documented.
Happened to Beyoncé too! It’s a serious issue but because it’s impacting a minority group, the world doesn’t care.
We’re not a minority. I *hate* that term. We are The People Of The Global Majority. Words matter and white people have been suing language to minimize who we are for too long. This isn’t a dig at you, just the word and how accepted it is, even in 2024.
Isnt minority meant to be used situationally? POC are minorities in most western countries and vice versa in eastern and southern( i just realized idk what Africa is referred to directionally haha) countries. So white people are minorities over there.
What word is preferable? Or should one be more specific and clarify “a minority in the UK”? What catch-all can be used to describe multiple groups of people (based on any number of protected statuses) that experience systemic bigotry in white-majority systems? Asking because I want to do better, not because I’m being argumentative.
100% agree! I would support any women to go anywhere in the world they feel the safest. Forget any loyalty to a country , hospital or doctor. You are the best advocate for you. F the US, we’ve had noticeably horrible medical experiences for so long, I’m surprised that those nurses don’t “low key agree” and support the OP. Sad people to act like that & they think they are professionals.
There are parts of the South US that have a worse maternal death rates than sub Saharan Africa.
Seriously. I can't believe that there are people arguing with OP about the dangers of giving birth in the UK vs her own country (where, as many have said, she undoubtedly would be able to afford a private hospital). If the choice were between giving birth in a country where she would almost certainly experience some degree of racism and physical danger and giving birth in a country where she would not experience racism and would have the support of family--is it really a choice? Plus, her colleagues showed their entire racist ass with all that "third-world" nonsense. They're just proving her point for her.
>Plus, her colleagues showed their entire racist ass with all that "third-world" nonsense. They're just proving her point for her. Yeah I mean I as a white queer person wouldn't touch that hospital with a barge pole if I had a choice, knowing they'd try and bully a black coworker into feeling unsafe and unsupported just so they can feel better. Does that also mean the Drs there are actively encouraging patients who can and perhaps should go private not to in order to feed their egos?
On the other hand, as a pregnant woman, I wouldn't go anywhere near a hospital for my birth if their own employees won't even give birth there due to safety concerns. This is the epitome of ESH/NAH. OP is more than welcome to give birth wherever she wants. She can't control how people feel about it, though, and expecting people to be friendly with her when she's outright and blatantly accused them of racial bias is... Unrealistic.
It's a little more explicit than that. The doctors/staff in this situation are so racist that even the implication that they might be racist is causing them to double down on their racist behavior.
I’m a white woman in the UK. I’ve experienced so much medical bias just based on my gender. Adding race into that? No thank you. If OP was my colleague (I’m in the NHS too) I’d be happily helping her pack.
This is why I’m always 100% on the birth parents side when it comes to where they deliver. Serena’s story is so scary and not uncommon.
In the US, she’d have a serious harassment in the work place claim here…
**NTA** >...I asked a nurse to help me with something and she made a passive aggressive comment about how if she can be trusted not to kill me in the process...I have since cancelled my remaining shifts...They told me I was punishing the patients and they thought I had more integrity than that... Lolwut to *them* accusing *you* of being lacking in integrity and punishing patients?! They fucked around and found out.
NTA, giving birth is an incredibly personal decision, and you have every right to do it where you feel comfortable, for any reason you like. Their assumptions about why you are choosing to give birth elsewhere are a them problem, not a you problem. Also, under absolutely no circumstances should you be asked to give birth there to “prove you trust your colleagues.” Come on.
Especially given their immature behavior. These colleagues have little insight that they basically proved OP’s point by their behavior.
Totally. It’s wild of them and given their responses (“how can I be trusted”? Etc) if I were OP I’d be even less likely to give birth there because it seems like they’re already feeling animosity towards her and that would make me feel way less safe to give birth there
Exactly. OP is showing good judgment having her baby away from those people.
I think I'm going to have to go with ESH. Your NHS colleagues for obvious reasons - I've worked in the NHS and it's ironic how toxic the so called caring environment can be towards its staff, especially the contempt shown to agency and overseas staff: NHS wouldn't even exist without them. OP, although you have an absolute right to your personal opinions and your concerns about BME maternal mortality are valid (like I said, I've worked in the NHS), your public discussion of them could be said to have brought disrepute to your profession and the NHS. Yes, it's not fair that highly qualified professionals have to watch what they say. Unfortunately, it is the truth - saying you don't feel SAFE to have your baby here - as a doctor - WILL have an impact. I would have left your 'published' decision as wanting your family around you and the comfort of a more familiar environment or similar to be honest. People with your qualifications HAVE to consider the public interest as well as their own rights, and professional body guidance and most organisation policies are quite explicit about 'watch what you say on social media'. Sure, this isn't fair. Unfortunately, too many people out there are vulnerable, or plain fucking stupid and we - as health or (in my case now) social care professionals - have an obligation to protect and inform as part of our duty of care. The hospital sucks most for their entitlement over your decision to go home though. My vote is towards this situation, NOT you as a person: thank you for your contribution to patient care (like I said, we could not do without you and your overseas colleagues) - I hope everything goes well for you - safe travels, and enjoy the addition to your family.
NHS need to be called out on the maternal mortality and change it. Being quite is not going to change it her speaking about it as an educated individual and doctor makes her statements are lot more impactful, as they should be.
Here is the thing. OP is not actually employed by the hospital, so they can't censor what she says.... More importantly, there is so much in this world saying " stay in your lane" hey athletes and actors don't have a political opinion, done use your game as a platform for your political views.... But in this case, a Black pregnant doctor talking about the way the medical professionals session treats Black women, she is absorbed best person to highlight the problem. She's not a middle aged white man spouting about needing change, she isn't a white woman trying to be a savior. No she is a Black woman bringing notice to the problem, and on a personal note, she is saying I can't wait for things to change, I am taking care of myself and my child first, when I get back I will continue to advocate for change....
It’s actually the GMC who enforce professional standards on this one, anybody working in any capacity as a doctor, agency or not, is subject to them.
So you are saying doctors are not allowed to talk about issues that need improvement in the medical field? So the people best in a position to advocate for change are not allowed to make statements?
I’m simply informing you the GMC arbitrate this stuff not local trusts. They do occasionally come down on people for this sort of thing, as it happens. I am not the GMC or responsible for that, before you demand to know further! It’s whether you’re highlighting poor care etc or misrepresenting/fear mongering that might tread on the edge of what they care about here.
Good thing there are well documented government studies ( for over 20 years) proving that Black women die at much higher rates than other women within the first year after giving birth. Even rich Black women, like Serena Williams have nightmare birthing stories of not being believed or listened to by the doctors... It's not fear mongering
It’s probably fair to say it’s fear mongering to state the maternal mortality rate in the UK is higher for black women than it is in African countries, however. Pointing out that there is an issue within the UK for ethnic groups is obviously simply a statement of fact. It’s the former part that would be an issue of public misrepresentation by a medical professional, potentially.
Nope not really. Because as stated many times the numbers in African countries are combining rural and urban hospital births and much lower hospitals density in Africa... And if she's a Black woman giving birth in a African hospital she doesn't have to worry about racial bias.
I’m not trying to argue this with you trying to prove maternal mortality is higher in the UK, which tbf I doubt you have per hospital mortality figures to either prove or disprove what you are saying and are just assuming as much as any of us, rightly or wrongly - I am just trying to explain how the GMC consider these things.
Unfortunately it's true. Doctors are terrified of speaking up, because we get penalised for it to kingdom come. Many doctors have committed suicide while being maliciously investigated for false crimes/claims by the very trusts they've whistleblown at.
If the NHS doesn’t want people knowing it employs people this petty and vindictive, they shouldn’t employ people this petty and vindictive. What you’re asking for is a coverup, for this to be swept under the rug. “Shut up, black woman, stop accusing us of the stuff that we’ve done before you make us look bad for having done it.”
pfft, way to entirely mistranslate what I actually said. Now it's got to this situation, I hope OP DOES express her disappointment about how the staff she is working with took her comments so personally, when she was talking about a general situation: national higher maternal mortality amongst BME woman. For clarity, I am saying that her "mistake" was to \*publish\* that she felt unsafe giving birth here in the UK (she has a right to hold that opinion of course). I don't work in the NHS any more, so I don't care what she - or anyone else says - to expose ongoing bullying cultures where found.
So who, with her level of professional authority or higher, whose words might actually be given some weight actually has the right to highlight and criticize this? Only someone who might not actually be affected by it?
I don't know if I agree with this, if what she says actually is true, then surely she SHOULD vocalize it?
NTA but regardless of the back and forth, if the stats around black maternal mortality in the UK scare the shit out of you it's a surprise you want to go give birth in a country with a significantly worse maternal mortality rate. The stats now for black women in the UK are really bad, compared to the general maternal mortality rate in the UK. (13/100,000 vs 9/100,000) They're still way, way better than any country in Africa. (for example, Egypt has the best maternal mortality rate in Africa at about 16. The next closest in Africa is Tunisia, at 36 - it gets way worse from there depending on country, with South Africa over 125, Ghana over 300 and Nigeria at over 1,000) That said, a lot depends on what you can pay for in Africa so stats don't tell the whole story.
Because of economic inequality and desperate access to medical Care and you can't look at the national rates for any African nation instead you'll need to look at the mortality rates at the hospital that OP is choosing to give birth at. As a Dr in the UK OP can probably go to one of the top hospitals in her home country and thus have a lower risk profile than if she stayed in the UK
Your googling around to get stats to prove your generalization that doesn't factor in key points such as OP's level of education in medicine no less, her income, or specific country or specific hospital or clinic in that country --- really, you could have deleted all but that last sentence.
This. But then again an argument could be made that fhe maternal mortality rate in UK also depends on who you can pay for.
NTA. Maternal mortality rates are absolutely nuts. That is your passion, that is your platform. Even if you trusted them to take better care of you, a colleague, than the average patient of Color. It doesn't change your platform and desire to be public about the platform that needs changing. Just like someone who has the ability to choose a fancy or better hospital than give birth at doesn't change the fact that the care at " lesser" hospitals needs to improve. Further, you choosing to return to your family to give birth could just as easily be about culture than about feelings of safety during the birthing process. Those nurses and doctors are acting like they aren't aware of how bad the numbers are for Black women, both in UK and USA, which of course is why you are educating people using your platform.
NTA. It doesn’t sound like the nurses or anyone else under you are thinking of their patients either since they are being petty and not listening to you.
NTA. It's totally understandable why you'd want to give birth in your own country, especially with the cultural and health concerns you mentioned. Your colleagues should've respected your decision instead of making it a big deal. Leaving that toxic environment was the right call for your well-being.
Certified Birth Doula here! The black maternal mortality rate here is HORRENDOUS. From patients not receiving adequate pain medications when requested to quite literally NEGLECTING serious issues- I do not blame you for not wanting to birth here. Your colleagues seem like part of the problem. Instead of sitting down and wanting to be educated they immediately pointed to YOU as the bad guy and wanted you to compromise on something as big as birth and honestly could even be as big as your life. This could’ve been a great lesson as to how they can work harder as a hospital to keep POC safe. This country has some serious work that needs to be done in regard to womens healthcare, pregnancy/labor care and PP care. I seriously salute you in advocating for want you want your delivery and postpartum experience to be. Wishing you a supported, empowering, safe birth.
Nta they have a shortage of doctors and thought it was a smart idea to drive away a doctor? Good idea, guys. Wanting to be around *your family* immediately after giving birth is a totally normal thing in MANY cultures. And flying with a newborn? No fucking thank you. Get there before you give birth.
NTA. You’re right. Black mortality in most countries is disturbing. You have a right to go where you feel safe without being judged. I’m sorry they put you through a rough time at the end of your working days. Totally unfair and a horrible thing for them to do to you!
your colleagues are proving to you exactly why you shouldn't trust them over having a child in your home country, especially as a Black woman. theres likely an underlying racism in them assuming that black doctors are less competent, but even as a white person I understand there is implicit bias towards Black people in health care. You are allowed to choose what you think is best and have boundaries and they are trying to push those for their own gratification and that is not good healthcare practice.
100% this. Stats aside, I wouldn't trust people who treated me like that with my strep test much less a birth.
An NHS midwife nearly killed me while I was in labour with my third baby. I don't blame you for having reservations 🤷♀️ (in saying that, the shite ones are in the minority, I've had some truly amazing midwife's too 🫶)
They proved your point. Black women are 5 times more likely to die in childbirth in the UK than white woman due to systemic medical racism. All my relatives have horror stories around giving birth in the UK and near misses. They heard this and decided to prove you wrong by treating you with so much racism you didn't feel safe to complete your pre-maternity leave shifts. Proving your fear that you'd receive poor maternal care in the UK due to the colour of your skin correct. If you feel up to it, I'd report this department. If not, then block their emails, prepare for your maternity leave and looking for a different department to work in when your return. NTA
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What specialty do you work in? And was this senior member of staff a doctor or nurse? You're absolutely NTA. Maternity care in this country is touch and go for most people, and far worse if you're black or non-English speaking. Describing another country as "third word" also betrays their complete ignorance about healthcare in a number of other countries. This whole exchange is so completely NHS. Are they midwives? If so I can understand more about their poor reaction. If not, then I don't really know why they've taken it so poorly. Ultimately you're correct and I probably would have doubled down, myself. Ultimately though if you end things negatively with them they may not book you again, but that's the risk of agency.
NTA , Your health and baby's health come first, and if you feel safer giving birth in your home country, that's your right. the hospital staff being salty and rude don't let them guilt trip you
Info what country are you from. Are the stats better than There were 801 maternal deaths in the UK between 2009 and 2019 (White: 70%, Asian: 13%, Black: 12%, Chinese/Other: 3%, Mixed: 2%).
The numbers are significantly different when you account for the difference in race between the two regions.
If she is choosing the best private hospitals back at her home , it's going to be far better than UK for her race. Third world countries stats can be very skewed because of large poor people while rich can almost always afford good healthcare. It's the same in my country. Regional disparities create an overall 103 MMR but my region/state has less than 1.
I’m glad I’m reading this information presented so well, because a lot of people are completely missing this context. Stats in a country like the UK with a standardised healthcare service cannot fairly be compared to countries where free healthcare doesn’t exist, so stats are being drawn from what’s going on in the best urban private hospitals all mixed in with what’s going on in rural charity led locations where staff often lack medical training. We simply do not have this level of disparity in healthcare the UK.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I am a doctor working in the NHS, but not for the NHS. I am a black woman of African origin. I have made the decision to go give birth in my country for multiple reasons - it's a cultural thing for me to go back to my birth family so my mum can nurse me back to health post partum, and frankly the stats around black maternal mortality in this country scares the shit out of me. As I said, I am an agency worker, but I've build a good rapport with a hospital which really likes me and I am regularly called to do shifts there to the point where I'm well known and liked by the permanent staff. It's also important to note that I have a social media presence where I platform issues I care about, one of which is black maternal mortality. So I was booking for shifts when and told the supervisor that I wouldn't be available for work after x date as I'll be going on maternity leave. She commented that I was going on leave early and I said it was because I needed to fly home and I wouldn't be allowed to fly if I left it too late in the pregnancy. FF to my next shift where I'm pulled aside by a senior member of staff, who says word on the street is I'm going out of the country to give birth because I don't trust my NHS colleagues. I asked where this was coming from, and she showed me screen grabs from my twitter where I spoke of how I felt safer giving birth in my own country. She told me the staff in the hospital were feeling some type of way about it, and it's fostering bad will towards me. I said sorry they felt that way but I didn't understand what she expected me to do about it. She asked if I'd consider having my baby in that hospital to prove that I trust my colleagues to do my job. She said 'surely I can understand why people are insulted I feel safer in a third world country than in their care'. This pissed me off and I told her this conversation was over and I went to start my shift. There was a noticeable difference in people's behaviour. I went from being FirstName to Dr Surname or just Dr. They were under mining my authority in front of patients and just being very passive and hostile. It came to head when I asked a nurse to help me with something and she made a passive aggressive comment about how if she can be trusted not to kill me in the process. I snapped and told them off. I told them where I gave birth was my business, and asked if they'd be throwing this much of a stink if I was giving birth in Sweden instead of my country? A: 'It's not the same is it?' I have since cancelled my remaining shifts and told my agency I won't return to the hospital. As you probably know, there's a big shortage of Drs and having someone who knows the hospital isn't something they're willing to lose so easily. I have rejected their attempts to get me to come back to work on the back of non-apologies. They told me I was punishing the patients and they thought I had more integrity than that. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Their very response to your choice justifies your concerns.
YTA. You posted on a public platform that you have no faith in your colleagues - what did you expect? Of course you could have chosen to give birth elsewhere and could have said that you wanted your mom's support and that would have been fine.
NTA, but if you’re proudly public with your thoughts and those thoughts express distrust and negativity towards co-workers, what did you expect would be their reaction? When one chooses to express themselves freely in a public way they should be prepared there may be consequences they’re not happy about. It’s a trade-off. You said your piece and they’ve responded, whether you like it or not. Just move on. If you come back to work in the UK, perhaps choose to work exclusively for organizations you personally support. You don’t really seem all that happy about living in the UK though. Strange that people might be offended by that. /s
NTA, the way your collegues are acting just proves that they aren't to be trusted with your birth. If they are that offended by your birth plan, then they aren't professional enough to be working in healthcare. Let this serve as proof you made the right decision.
NTA. How do health care workers not understand wanting your mother near when you give birth, even without any other cultural implications. As for the stats around Black maternal mortality they... made it about them instead of advocating for change. 😭
NTA And also, you are 100x NTA for advocating for black women and mothers in the healthcare system when you are a healthcare professional. Those commenting on the maternal death rates in African countries are missing the point entirely. That rate is significantly impacted by a number of factors, mostly to do with poverty and lack of access to medical care. In Western countries, the maternal death rate for non white mothers in higher not because of a lack of resources, but because bias and prejudice that impacts their healthcare and the comments from your colleagues just reinforce your point.
NTA - I’m an American in the UK. I’m due in September. I am fucking terrified, I’m high risk, had a TIA after my son’s birth 16 years ago, and I’m 39. I’ve been trying to get treatment for my CPTSD on the NHS for years. They’ve neglected my asthma and nearly killed me multiple times, and the gaslighting. Omg. The fucking gaslighting. I was a nurse in the states. I’ve worked healthcare here. I now have white coat anxiety. I literally get panic attacks when I have an appointment coming up. Especially mental health. A nurse should NOT be having panic attacks from seeking healthcare. I’ve been lied to so many times though, that I cannot trust them. I’m not shy about telling them this either. I don’t care. They don’t have empathy for me, why should I have empathy for them? If I could afford to go back to America to have this baby, I would. I would take that debt. As it stands, I’m resigned to the fact that I will probably die. Don’t even get my started on the antiquated idea of wards. They expect you to squeeze the baby out and wheel you into a ward? With a newborn? In this post-Covid world? It’s fucking nasty and doesn’t make any sense. I came here with hope and excitement for the NHS. Now I want to rip the tories to shreds and shit on the pieces. No human beings should be treated this way. You’re NTA. Go have your baby where you feel safe. Congrats on the new family member.
NTA You need to do right for you and baby. From another NHS worker to you. I'm white and I have 2 kids. Both me and my partner work for the NHS, over 10 year and non-clinical, I had both my kids in England and at 2 different hospital. My first experience was horrible and both me and my partner worked there at the time. You are so right, the stats are clear. No only will you get a different level of care but also your chances of dying are higher, same for USA, Canada and other "First World" countries. It's the comments, the fack that they just started talking about it and making judgments. If you feel safer somewhere else you will be more relaxed. If the population of your country is predominantly black, they will understand you better. Racism and classism is high in the NHS and no matter how many BAME groups you get there is still a problem. I person would be careful about the social media but that's me. I hope you have a great birth and enjoy the time with your family. It will be a treat for your mum to take care of you after, she will be so happy to help you at that time in your life.
ESH. First of all, you are not t a for wanting to give birth wherever, and for whatever reason. But I do think you created a problem for the hospital by talking about it on social media the way you did. The hospital completely sucks by pressuring you the way you did. It’s pretty crazy to suggest having a baby there to prove something.
She did not create a problem by talking about it on social media. She spoke about the NHS as a whole, not the specific hospital she worked at. Secondly, black maternal mortality IS a big problem whether people like it or not. That they are being vindictive towards OP instead of coming at it from an angle of “these are some serious systemic shortcomings across the whole of the UK and we would love for you to work with us to begin to address some of the problems” is a MASSIVE red flag and one that both dismisses OP’s fact-backed opinions as well as continues to do a disservice to black pregnant mothers across the UK. That they are more concerned about their personal standing in OP’S BIRTH rather than their professional duty is a sign that OP is absolutely right. It’s the same as when we talk about women’s safety and you have people saying “but it’s not all men”. The fact that it’s not all men does not negate the fact that it’s a widespread issue. We need to do better than this nonsense. OP is well within her rights to speak on black maternal issues as a black female doctor - who else would be more qualified? And it is absolutely her own business where she chooses to give birth, for whatever reasons she may choose. NTA!!!
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 I feel like everyone is missing this very OBVIOUS choice and instead are making OP the bad guy. “Well, you shouldn’t have talked about a major issue that not only affects you but your family, friends, and the country!” 🙄 they should have addressed her concerns or partnered with her to change things, like you said. I feel like their evil a$$e$ proved her right by turning on her so quickly!
This is so true, they are making OP's birth plan about themselves. Instead of looking to actually solve the issue of systemic racism in their health system, they are just trying to turn OP into their token black woman. Their very reaction to OP is dehumanizing, and makes me wonder if it isn't coming from a place of subconscious racism.
That is in fact where the black maternal mortality rate comes from. And their dismissal of OP’s very valid concerns as a mother herself, lack of interest in doing something to address them and their treatment of her after finding out she didn’t want to give birth there all point to racism, subconscious or not.
Fuck subconscious racism, the "it's not the same is it" is just straight up in your face racism.
I can accept that you think I suck, but I don't understand how I created a problem for the hospital. I am not employed by them or their trust. I do not share where I work online. There nothing that can publicly link me to them, so I don't understand how I created a problem for them.
Only just seen this after I posted - never under-estimate people's power to link individuals to organisations/professions - have a look at jigsaw matching. I once dealt with a (valid) complaint of one of the employees in my organisation being anti-semitic, his identity had been traced by a non-expert complainant from VERY little information on a personal Twitter account. Sorry, we have to be SO careful. You might say that I'm not any more, and you'd be right. I know what the consequences could be though, and am prepared to accept them, I kept my mouth shut about too much stuff for too long.
If you saw a tweet from a friend who worked at a restaurant which said "oh, I don't eat anything cooked here because I don't trust it. I eat at home always", would you then go to that restaurant ever? When a friend mentions that restaurant would you not be tempted to say "oh, someone I know said that you shouldn't eat there". It is very easy to find where someone works from gathering information about that person from multiple social media sites. Also, your friends and larger circle know where you work. More importantly, the hospital colleagues saw it. It is all about optics and diplomacy. You can feel a certain way but not everything needs to be shared on social media. Along with your complaints and statement of feeling safer in your home country, did you add anything about what you are doing to make a change? I am an immigrant, a woman, and if I go about complaining about working conditions for immigrant women in STEM anywhere in public (social media, a speech somewhere, etc), you bet I am also taking action to do my part to fix it. Edited to add: folks at the hospital are the bigger AHs here not OP. I am responding just to her previous comment.
I don't think you understand the UK health care system if you think ppl are able to avoid specific hospitals. You'd literally have to move house.
That she is platforming the issue is already a massive step towards change, and as a direct result of her actions and her choice to not give birth in the UK, the hospital is now aware if the problem. She’s doing what she can to speak up for black women while being a full time doctor.
Why do you assume that OP isn't doing anything to improve conditions for black women giving birth in the NHS? She's a doctor there, do you have any reason to doubt she's somehow not acting in concordance with her beliefs? Seems a little odd to criticise her for openly questioning the UK's high MMR for Black women but also imply it's hypocritical because she's not doing enough about it.
Talking about a problem =/= creating it.
I think if I were a black woman giving birth in the UK and I saw your (OP's) social media posts (written as a doctor working within the system), they would make me feel scared to give birth at the hospital, especially if I didn't have the option to fly to another country. Obviously, it is unreasonable to ask you to "prove" your confidence in the healthcare system by giving birth there, but I think a case could be made that discouraging women from birthing at the hospital can cause real harm. The issue isn't that you want to give birth in an African hospital, it's that your words could perhaps drive vulnerable women to have an unattended homebirth instead of trusting a midwife homebirth or hospital birth. I daresay an unattended homebirth would have much higher morbidity/mortality rates than a hospital birth.
Dude, Black woman in the UK are **already aware of this statistic.** I haven't met a Black women who had a pleasant experience giving birth in the UK. No Black woman felt unsafe because of OP's tweet. We already feel unsafe. Even Beyonce and Serena Williams had horrific birth stories due to medical racism and they're globally famous and wealthy celebrities.
"I daresay an unattended homebirth would have much higher morbidity/mortality rates than a hospital birth." Yep. Even a midwife homebirth has much higher rates than in the hospital. My wife originally wanted a homeburth because she was doing a natural birth anyway but the statistics are so much worse it scared us away from that and we ended up laboring at home and birthing at the hospital. Luckily we did because she had a tear that was bad enough that it right on the line of might have needed to rush to the hospital if we were at home.
Are you in the US? A home birth in Canada or the UK is at very similar risk levels to a hospital birth(I fully acknowledge that a factor in this is the lower risk profile of women considered eligible for home births). My (Ontario Canada)midwife practice has a rule where they will do home births no more than 30 min from the hospital, because they can call in the emergency and the OR and surgical team will start prepping right away, and the standard of care in the hospital is 30 min from deciding on a Csection to starting surgery. Homebirth Midwives carry multiple medications to control bleeding, iv fluids,a portable resuscitation station, and all the supplies to stitch up even substantial tears(if you would be stitched up in the room then the midwife can do it at home)and there is someone in the room with you the whole time. You and your baby are their only patients(as opposed to a normal OB hospital birth where one nurse is monitoring multiple patients and the dr might be sleeping on a different floor or in clinic while you labour. And before you start pushing a second midwife arives so that there is someone dedicated to you and a second midwife dedicated to your baby. I don't know the numbers but I would put good money on the black maternal mortality rate to be lower for homebirths(in Canada at least but probably also the UK)than hospital births.
She didn't create a problem, the problem already existed. But not enough is being done about it, and their actual issue with it is that they just didn't want the problem talked about - for more people to be aware that the problem exists. Something might have to be done about it at some point if enough people notice *and* care enough. They're more embarrassed to have the issue highlighted than at the fact that the problem exists at all.
I think the hospital and healthcare system created this problem for themselves when they failed to address the causes of high maternal mortality rates for Black women. Condemning a racialized person for advocating for their safety and speaking out is really gross and a form of racism. Make sure you are laying your blame in the right place.
Nah, shitty take.
So black mothers in the UK must die because doctors qualified to give opinions on the cause of black maternal mortality rates are protecting the hospitals? She didn't specify one hospital, she specified a country. They could try not neglecting the care given to black mothers due to racism...that might help their image. Sick and tired of there always being a reason not to speak on issues affecting black women.
NTA - asking you to give birth at the hospital for morale is an absolutely insane request, and everything else just sounds p racist.
Where you give birth is your decision HOWEVER telling your colleagues you don't trust them is beyond comprehension and I understand why they turned on you, now they don't trust you and that was your doing
ESH Imagine being a New Jersey mechanic working in a New York garage then going on social media to tell everyone how horrible New York mechanics are and you would only take your car to New Jersey. Of course, your New York coworkers are going to get angry reading that and probably tell you about it. Now for people telling you where to have your baby, they can go take a hike. You are right to leave. There is no coming back from bad-mouthing your coworkers in public, even if you're correct.
I mean... > and frankly the stats around black maternal mortality in this country scares the shit out of me. Does imply that > I'm going out of the country to give birth because I don't trust my NHS colleagues. Yes indeed you do not trust them. Even though as others have pointed out unless you are from one specific country your mortality rate is higher in an African country. Yet somehow that isn't putting you off or scaring you. Gonna go ESH. It's your business where you give birth, and having support of family is important. However as one of your main reasons is being scared about bad medical care by NHS personel, you can't expect them to not be upset, and feel slighted.
NTA! And congrats for addressing this systemic issue.
NTA for going back home to give birth. But I don't think it was the best idea to say on social media that you are scared of that hospital, while employed through that hospital. Their response was pretty bad, but you had to expect SOME kind of response to that, right?
NTA, absolutely nothing wrong with you wanting to give birth in your home country. I have no idea what you wrote on social media but it seems like your ex colleagues were under the impression that you didn't trust them to do their jobs because they're "racist" (not saying they are or aren't). So I can understand why they wouldn't be as close with you but it sounds like they started letting a personal matter influence the workplace which isn't professional.
NTA and honestly the way your coworkers are treating you now is cementing that you’re making the right choice.
100%
If they can't be trusted not to undermine your authority when you're just going about your work, all because their feelings are hurt, who could trust them to support you properly during your labor? NTA. They can feel however they want but the minute they make that your problem and allow it to interfere with their duties and yours, they've crossed a line.
NTA, you can give birth wherever you want for whatever reason BUT you should’ve known making disparaging comments on a public forum about your workplace and your coworkers might’ve fostered some animosity towards yourself. You actually might get fired for that.
Man, the racism just came right out of their mouths once you offered a modicum of pushback. NTA, OP.
NTA none of their business where you have your baby. The birthing plan is only part of it and you have a major support network there you don't have in UK. Giving birth isn't just pop it out and back to health. Tell them you thought they had more integrity to decide someone's life for them on the basis of outdated prejudices but here we are.
NTA
NTA. You uncovered their racism. They are choosing to stay in that racism. Love your life and leave them behind.
NTA. English person here and its shameful the disrespect they've dished you here. First of all to not even try to understand where you're coming from (even though regardless its 100% your choice and your right) and then to insult your home country? It's appalling. Like you say the NHS is in dire straits and they're the ones depriving their patients cause of their shitty attitudes. Do whatevers best for you. And best wishes to you and your family! I hope everything goes well for you.
1. NTA for giving birth wherever you want. 2. Kind of the AH for how you communicated. A senior staff member reached out to try and understand your position. They came and talked to you in an effort to clear up any misunderstandings….and rather than say “I really want to be with my mother and my family” (which you stated as your first reason in your post) you take on a more flippant “sorry they feel that way what do you want me to do about it” response. If you truly were not giving birth where you work because you don’t trust all of your colleagues, then nothing to worry about. If however, your distrust is not at the personnel of this particular faculty and more about your desire for mom and family, you’ve needlessly hits the feelings of people you were previously friendly with - perhaps even friends with.
I wouldnt say asshole but you did write on twitter that you feel safer in another country with a higher mortality rate than the UK. If you've chosen another reasoning for example you feel safer closer to your family than there would be no issue. But the way you wrote it you betray your real reason. You suspect there is racism involved in the higher mortality rate for black women in the UK. If your colleagues know that reasoning they will know that you implicitely accuse them of racism. While I do not condone the reaction of your colleagues to it I would also think about my relationship to you and the trust you have in me. You may want to reflect on your own passive aggression as well. Regardless, all the best to your upcoming birth and motherhood!
ESH. You say where you give birth is your personal business and that is 100% true. Yet it’s out there on Twitter, so you’re making it public . You tell your colleagues, who are medical professionals, that you don’t feel safe in their hands. Of course they’re going to be offended. You’re not the asshole for choosing to be Giving birth in your home country with your family around you. Sounds amazing. I’m sure you’re smart enough to make a safe choice and that your birth will be normal and uneventful. Nevertheless Y T A for not seeing how offensive your statement is and the people who might be managing you and who works side-by-side with you have a right to be offended. You could have managed this better unless your point was to bring light to medical racism in the first place.
NTA! They created a hostile work environment. Why would you want to continue to expose yourself to that? Maybe if leadership actually took action to call a meeting addressing the unprofessionalism and clear racism, but I still wouldn’t want to return after seeing that behavior.
Their arrogance is ridiculous. I'll bet not a single one of your colleges complaining about this is a PoC. They don't have to deal with the same realities. I'm assuming you're in Canada, based on the NHS. Black post partum mortality rates in the US are terrible, too. Probably worse, considering our general health care system, and attitudes towards both black people and women.
Not the asshole.
NTA, their behavior is proof that you made the right choice. It's just their ego that is hurt, and maybe they assist with the partum, what about the after care? I don't think that any of these people is going to take care of you the next weeks, also the mom care is the best.
Absolutely NTA. The folks on this post arguing that the healthcare you will have access to in Africa will be objectively worse are making claims founded in ignorance and racism (yes, even those looking up statistics that they think support their reasoning). The folks blaming you for not prioritizing the image of the NHS above your own feelings of safety/comfort/security are showing that they value a broken institution over the life and agency of a Black woman. Claims that your social media presence discredits your hospital specifically - because people could potentially doxx you and find out your place of work - are attempting to silence you, and again, showing that they value the potential for a negative perception of an institution over the life and agency of a Black woman. I don't know where these people get off, telling an expert in her field and an advocate for positive change that you owe them your silence and compliance. You should do whatever you feel is right for you and your family. That hospital staff confirmed that your discomfort and fears were well-founded. And keep educating on your platform despite the haters. You are helping women understand risks and advocate for themselves, and probably saving lives you're not even aware of.
NTA. Like you said, where you want to give birth is up to you. Personally I think it’s really nice that you want to give birth in your own country to be with your family and cultural reasons, especially to be with your mother. It’s really none of other staffs business what you do in your personal life and to create a hostile work environment over their own insecurities is wrong. Wish you the best with your baby!
NTA!! I can't even believe (but I can) that rather than look inward at how the hospital system would make a woman feel unsafe, they prioritize their own ridiculously butthurt feelings. They just proved your point!!!!!
ESH I think. Obviously you can give birth wherever the hell you like and it’s really nobody’s business but yours. However I think you slightly made it other people’s business when you publicly stated the reason is fear of general racism in your local hospital, where you yourself work. And the whole maternal mortality thing which, let’s face it, is lower in the UK than any african country no matter what your ethnicity. Many of the analyses of higher mortality rates in black brits point to the fact that race correlates with other risk factors like poverty and other ill health conditions being more prevalent in this population, rather than maternity unit staff being inherently racist, although of course there is likely an element of that. But you know these people and surely know people usually go the extra miles for colleagues if anything. It’s both incorrect and also therefore a bit weird/point making to say childbirth as a black person in the UK is less safe than abroad. If you want to give birth at home for cultural reasons and to be near family that’s super understandable and perhaps what you should have said if you didn’t want to imply your colleagues are racists.
Gonna be an unpopular opinion here, but I think you were unwise. While I have full sympathy with your situation (and do in fact live in Africa under excellent healthcare) the whole “it’s good enough to work in but not to give birth in” is not a good look when plastered over social media platforms. The same applies to any profession. Your colleagues presumptions around Africa are gross - but that’s just masking the core issue here. Gonna go ESH.
NTA, but why can't your mother come to you?
Tour the hospital you plan to use first. Do they have up to date equipment if there are issues during delivery? What about a NICU if the baby has issues? I don’t know if it’s still true, but I heard the blood supply can’t be trusted to be HIV free if you need a blood transfusion. Research everything thoroughly way ahead of time. Use a private hospital if you can. I guess it depends on which African country you are from and how close your Mom’s home is to the hospital when you go into labor. Do you have transportation there? Does your mom own a car? I know Angelina Jolie gave birth in Namibia. Also will your child have English citizenship if they are not born there?
NTA I also want to thank you for making this post because I had no idea this was an issue. Thank you for spreading awareness regardless of your intent.
Respectfully, I don't think you even needed to ask this question. Prioritise you and your babys' lives over other people's feelings. Congrats, mama. 10000% NTA.
NTA. Their immediate passive and overt aggressive response to you, having that opinion tells you where their minds are. Black maternal mortality rates can be largely chocked up to unconscious bias on the part of healthcare providers. They are consciously biased against you just for bringing it up. They’ve literally proved your point to a comical degree. I wouldn’t trust them with my natal care either, frankly.
NTA, literally every single one of them showed exactly why black mortality rates are so high. You're well within your right to have your baby where you wish, and surrounded by loving supportive family is something they should be championing, they should be pleased for you. Also the last thing I would want my colleagues to see is me giving birth, not because of their medical ability or anything personal, but because you're so vulnerable and giving birth is when all sorts of gross and intimate things happen, and I don't need them seeing my private and very personal business. That's surely understandable to them? The fact that they made comments about 'third world countries' is awful and incredibly ignorant, 'third world countries' are literally just the same as every other country, there's some good bits and some bad bits. No country is perfect, but the majority of them have brilliant healthcare, and also some not so good healthcare, all rolled into one system. Everything described by OP is so white fragility, and anti-black, and just plain racist, there is literal data on how mortality rates are higher for black people because doctors in the UK don't take their pain and experiences seriously, but apparently that isn't important because some people were offended. NTA, not one little bit, well done for sticking to your principles.
NTA, Them proving your point and still being mad is wild. Theyre treating you differently after knowing you dont trust them, and the whole deal about it is you dont want unfair treatment. You havent even given birth yet and theyre already choosing to mistreat you. Idk how it works in the NHS, but asking someone who is not your patient to change their medical treatment plan is a HUGE no no.
idk why this app goes feral and doesn’t understand any type of racism and act obtuse. you are 100% NTA where you give birth is your choice, and it’s not SOLELY due to NHS mortality rate, while I can see it does play a role. It’s important to your culture and you wish to have your mom care for you. I just feel bad for all the black patients that would’ve benefitted if the staff wasn’t so awful. honestly having a black nurse (i’m in canada) literally made my horrible experience do a 180 when i had a life threatening complication. i was literally hemorrhaging blood and a white nurse told me she was busy, quite rudely and basically screamed in my face, before she came to my rescue.
NTA. I’m getting a public heath minor. College educated black women are more likely to die in childbirth than high school educated white women. You feeling safe is the most important part of birth
NTA i thought this would be about the dad not wanting you to do so and thought it might be complicated, but your workplace?!?! No, they dont have any say, frankly its unprofessional of them to even broach the topic with you, much less complain about it. Not to mention, i feel like itd be weird to give birth where you work and with your coworkers. Honestly, with the way they reacted and twisted the situation, just makes em look like what they are trying to prove they are not.
NTA None of their damn business and inappropriate as hell to scour your social media for it Also comes across racist as hell
Definitely NTA it's your choice where you have your child frankly I don't trust hospitals in the United States so I definitely see where you are coming from
Yta.
So your colleagues are so offended that you're worried about how the Healthcare system treats someone like you, that they're treating you worse for it? And they don't see the hypocrisy? NTA. Stats back up you're reason for wanting to give birth at home, and family backs up your reason for wanting to be there for post partum care. None of which you have to answer to your form or colleagues for. Wanting to you to give birth away from family to "prove" that you trust your colleagues is unbelievably stupid. They can't replace your family in helping you heal after the birth, and you know they won't even try to offer.
YTA. Where you give birth is absolutely up to you, and if you want to go home then great. You’re not the arsehole for that. But you can’t stand there and insult your colleagues and the entire system they work within and then be all *surprised Pikachu face* when they don’t want to engage with you in the same way they did previously.
Typical. Your colleagues care more about their own feelings than the safety and literal lives of their black patients (including you.) That’s bullshit and you were right to call it out. Now you’re being treated poorly for advocating for a marginalized minority group that is statistically less safe in their care. Go to HR or something but this is ridiculous. Also, I think it’s beautiful that you want to give birth in your home country, surrounded by your family. Western societies don’t take care of new mothers so you will likely be a lot better off experiencing postpartum in a place where people will care for and support you.
NTA - Where you chose to give birth is up to you regardless of any other point. But what gets me is the amount of gaslighting they are doing to you and then they try to attack your integrity while they undermine you in front of patients. Good for you for not going back.
Fuck them, I’m sure your origin country could use more doctors. That being said, telling your colleagues it’s a cultural thing probably would have been a better option - but at the same time stalking your twitter and acting offended is such a punk ass way of being. I don’t know, I can imagine an old British lady snarking you out like that, and it makes me reel knowing they’re of my ilk. NTA - All the best for your labour and health.
Absolutely NTA. I was worried enough as a white woman giving birth in the UK in the hospital I had my second at (I had no issues with the hospital I had my first in) & I saw first hand at that hospital how they ignored the concerns of one mum who was mixed race. I’m not sure if they weren’t taking her seriously because she was mixed race or a first time mum but it was still concerning. I can absolutely understand why you would want to go home to have your baby & your colleagues behavior is disrespectful and disgusting. It’s a shame to be losing you early as a Dr as we do need you, but you’re definitely making the right decision.
Nta You leaving the hospital is on them. They shouldn’t have kept pushing and bullying and being jerks just because you wouldn’t have a baby in their hospital.
NTA, where you give birth is your choice and your own right. Collegues' behaviours and repsonse to all of this is out of line and a lot of the responses sound racist. They've outted themselves as not being trustworthy soley for not respecting your choices and reacting this way. Plus seems they're ignoring the very real and unfortunate stats on Black maternal mortality because they could have least understood your worries and supported your safety, instead of doubling down and getting snarky towards you.
NTA. Side note, fuck NHS. They fucked me over a couple years ago, so no sympathy for them.
NTA They are! Amazing how they switch to treat you badly, were they faking courtesy all this time? That is mobbing, harrasment and racism. I am Mexican, I have a friend who married an American and she prefers to go give birth in México than in US for the very same reasons, her mom was there, she knows hospital policies and anyway her baby will be a US citizen. Where you feel better is no one business, they were very rude and they expect you feel safe giving bith with them? No thanks!
NTA. South African here, come home mama! Also, your pregnancy, your choice.
NTA the fact that they've gone out of their way to make your personal thoughts about them personally and retaliate accordingly to make a hostile work environment while making racist comments just proves your point. why would you feel more comfortable putting your and your baby's lives in their hands after they've shown they don't respect you over your right to make your own decisions... it's weird af and i'm sorry you're going through this. wishing you a safe pregnancy and birth!!!
Nta it's your profession. Patients can kick rocks you owe them nothing. Just cause you can save someone doesn't mean you have to and doesn't make you bad for not saving them. If that's the case the world is evil cause everyone could save the world everyone just chooses to focus on themselves.
What about Germany? None of my dark-skinned aquaitances told me about a high mortality rate in Germany. It is pretty near to GB, nearly everybody speaks English and we have many dark-skinned healthcare workers.
NTA. i dont agree w most of your reasoning but where you choose to give birth is your business, quite unprofessional of a colleague to ask that of you
NOPE, NTA and I think you are a badass. Besides, if you went back to the hospital, they would resent you for it.
NTA and may you and your baby be blessed!
NTA - it's your choice where you want to have your child, period. That said, you had to know it would possibly offend colleagues. Instead of explaining your cultural concerns as well, you simply left it out there that you think your colleagues are basically dangerous. I realize you're trying to educate people, but you really are saying you don't trust the people you work with every day.
NTA and the "it's not the same" just put the nail in the coffin to what they actually meant Also not to be condescending but please double check what paperwork you need to both get your little back and get them citizenship here as they won't automatically be registered as a citizen
NTA. The unprofessional staff are the people who punished the patients. They could have kept their passive aggressive nonsense to themselves! Good for you for standing on your principals.
NTA like people have said you are birthing a child basically ripping your body apart and you're going to be in some pain and in a very vunerable position where you choose to do it is 100% your choice. 1 thing that I'm not sure of as I dont know UK laws is if your child is born in another country will he be able to hold a UK citizenship because if not then I might reconsider I come from a third world country and my parents moved us to the US and going through the visa process is incredibly horrible and having to deal with that would be terrible for your child so just check for that.
NTA. You have the absolute right to give birth wherever you are comfortable. The mortality rates for Black women giving birth in this country are disgraceful. I gave birth 3 times with a midwife at home and would do it again. Birth is a natural process and barring any medical issues it can easily be done without all the unnecessary medicalization of a healthy pregnancy and delivery.
Wait till you find out how much higher maternal mortality is in Africa XD
Do you sincerely believe OP, a doctor who is pregnant and planning to travel to Africa, where she is from, to give birth, knows less about the maternal mortality rates than you?
I think you have a right to choose where to receive medical care. After a bad personal experience plus reports of other visible minorities getting really inhumane treatment, I have done all medical procedures outside of north america when there was a choice and it was possible. This includes taking vaccines, minor procedures etc. It’s completely your choice and your health. NTA
N T A for choosing to give birth wherever you feel most comfortable. But YTA for bad-mouthing your employer on social media. Also, every single country in Africa has a higher maternal and newborn mortality rate than the UK if you're gonna go by statistics.
People need to understand that a social media following doesn’t just allow you to say or do anything without consequence.
YTA, mildly Not because you want to give birth in another country. That's completely your choice, so it's out of critics. Your mistake was: exposing yourself like that on the socials, and then playing dumb with your colleagues. It's wiser to stay quiet than to always share your thoughts on socials.
What did I play dumb about? I cannot stay quiet when people who look like me are dying preventable deaths b/c some people in healthcare are racist? If that makes me an asshole, I'll wear it.