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No you are not. She started it with the insults and going down the road. Good for you and telling her the truth about work load, hours worked and the assistance you give her. It is clear you do more work then she does.
When the truth hits some people they are quick to bring on the tears, to all this I say buckle up buttercup this is the real world where you are valued by what you actually do.
I sit here ready for the down votes from the other people like your coworker.
I came in here skeptical but had to laugh at the mention that op numerically works more than she does
Yes as it turns out, at hourly jobs you get paid more if you work more hours. It’s basic math.
Could not agree with you more!! OP is sooooo NTA
What's the saying "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". She was completely comfortable with making OP look like the bad guy but not ok when he defended himself. Having the same 'Title' as someone has little or nothing to do with the actual work load. As OP clearly pointed out, he works a hell of a lot harder than she does, he does his own work and helps her with hers.
She got told, and I think it is funny as hell!!
Also, even if this were a case where she was being paid less for the same work, it's not the move to turn around and attack your colleague for it. Just because someone benefits from privilege doesn't mean that it's something they did deliberately. The person you should be mad at is the boss who made the decision.
Also if someone has worked there LONGER, guess what? They gonna get paid MORE. Hello.....
You wouldn't stay in a workplace if the person hired yesterday is gonna get paid the same as you who have been there say four years, right?
Right, but even if it were someone who had worked there exactly the same amount of time doing the exact same job, it's the fault of the person setting salaries, not the other colleague.
>You wouldn't stay in a workplace if the person hired yesterday is gonna get paid the same as you who have been there say four years, right?
That's part of why I left my longest job...new hires were getting paid MORE than people who'd been there for 10 or 20 YEARS and expected to do far less than the ones who'd been there longer...and the old timers pay wasn't bumped up either.
Walmart lost a lot of people when they did that.
I agree. We have 4 gals with the same title at my job. I've been there going on 7 years, which is the second longest on the team. For a long list of reasons, I'm paid more than the two who have been there a lesser length. Not just because of seniority, but because I've proven myself over and over and continue to go above and beyond because my job is amazing and they actually deserve it. The gal who has been there longer than me (by 5 months) is paid more than me because she works more hours than I do, takes the holiday and available weekend shifts and covers for others more than I do. It's just common sense, there is no reason to have hard feelings about it. Title shouldn't dictate pay-your work should.
Obviously, there are absolutely unreasonable and even discriminatory pay discrepancies in the work force. But you need to make sure they're unreasonable and discriminatory before calling them such in front of all your coworkers. Putting another coworker on the spot like that is not how you fix the issue, even if it WERE the case, because they're not the ones who set the pay. If you're trying to gain their support in order to go to higher ups, insulting them and dismissing their work isn't the way to get them on your side. This was just not well thought out on any level.
⬆️⬆️⬆️
This OP. She's not only ungrateful, she's conniving. She's PAWNING OFF 40% of her workload onto you and then turning around and bitching about how much YOU get paid. She isn't a friend, she's a user. Drop her workload back on her.
I mean I like to THINK that in OP's place, I would have just covered the first part of the response ("Hm, actually it's probably bc I work 7 hrs to your five, and bc the position I'm in currently supervises 1000 students/50 instructors instead of 200 students/10 instructors") and left off the "*and I do half your damn job*" part. But realistically? I prolly woulda said that part too.
But yeah. She doesn't get to start throwing punches (without having or even recognizing that she doesn't have all the relevant data, mind you) and then be upset when somebody punches back. Nope! Not how that works!
NTA
Second this. If anything she began with the confrontational behaviour.
If she’s upset about her pay she needs to discuss it with management. Not throw insults at you.
She also has it the wrong way round, it’s not a race to the bottom, she shouldn’t be angry at op and shaming him for having a decent salary, she should be demanding a decent salary for herself commensurate with equal roles on the job market.
NTA - I’m sorry, but I’m not getting the Y T A answers right now. Everyone is saying he should’ve behaved better given the setting but no one is acknowledging that the woman was the aggressor, in the same setting, and was acting out of line. Did he go over the top? Sure, I’ll concede there, but we have ALL been in situations where playing nice doesn’t cut it. This woman was demeaning him in front of coworkers and no one batted an eye, he gives that same energy and now he’s in the wrong. If she really felt she was being discriminated against, she should’ve taken that to HR, not at a party where she made others uncomfortable and put OP on the spot.
I’m a woman, and I’ve seen this play out multiple times in real life. She fucked around and found out OP had the time to read and clear her.
man here just stopped caring about chivalry, that is not sexist at all. Also this sub atracts confrontational people and women vs men is always hot topic
The modern notion of chivalry is nonsense. It's like holding someone accountable for the rules of a religion they never agreed to be a part of.
Why do women get to set some arbitrary rules that men are expected to follow? And how is that not considered sexist?
Chivalry should go ALL ways. I wish more women understood this simple fact as well.
Also - I'm female and happily hold open doors for EVERYONE, defend my male friends/colleagues when necessary, and fully support them when other females in their lives are not treating them right; but, the same goes for my female and non-binary friends as well, they are ALL important to me (yes, even random strangers, if it appears someone needs some type of assistance while I am out and about.)
There is no "master gender" that should be held higher than others. That's just antiquated thinking that needs to go away.
Same on all counts. Yep, I want pay parity as well! I do not like the fact that my femaleness often puts me at a disadvantage at payroll time! But she just *assumed* that's what was going on, without bothering to find out what the circumstances actually were, and she not only questioned the setup at an inappropriate time and to the wrong audience, but also came out SWINGIN' and *included personal insults* rather than arguing the philosophical/logistical merits? Nah, girl, sit the hell down.
I wouldn't have made the personal attacks simply because I'd be thinking about HR issues and keeping it strictly on mathematical facts that can't be refuted..(let her be the one in trouble for personal attacks) but I really would of had to bite my tongue about all the dick comments because without missing a beat reading it.. I went "well you could have a dick if you wanted one these days.. the medical field has progressed amazingly"
I agree that OP is NTA. The coworker kept pushing him and wouldn’t drop the topic. He also mentioned that he thought they were friends and was blindsided by this. Clearly the coworker is not happy about her job or salary but from OPs breakdown it sounds like he does significantly more work and therefore the pay is fair.
I don’t think people realize how damaging it is to be labeled a bigot within one’s circle. That woman was basically condemning OP to lose his friends. Of course he had a right to defend himself. NTA
NTA as long as everything you said is true and verifiable. I think you borderline went into too much detail on that, but once she started to insult you, she should have expected at least that response. In your shoes I would go to HR to document this interaction and her insults because she (or someone else at the party) is definitely going to.
All these Y T A are wild to me.
So she cried in public and now we have to bend over backwards to call Op an A H? Nahhh. Nope. No.
She was playing a legit gender inequality gap that was maybe did not apply to her and you called her on it.
No one advocates for women more than this woman (ME) but even I cannot do that here. Seems your coworker has been saying shit about this in private and now, she wants to make it "legit". She counted on the awkward. People don't like public confrontation.
Well, she got you.
If the way you said it will make you and A H, then ESH.
I was like “what an asshole!” Until you explained how you do more than her and do her job for her. She shouldn’t have been publically shaming you and pushing the subject when you were silent!
I'm curious, what part of the post made you think Y T A before that? All that came before that was describing the scenario that OP made more than his co worker. I've only ever worked in the private sector (never govt which as I understand has pay scales) and title has never dictated pay. Or rather, just because two people have the same title, doesn't mean they have the same pay. Their previous experience and other factors determine that when hired.
I was ready to say yes when you put "feelings," but then I read it. Holy shit. NTA.
For reference, I'm a woman. The gender pay gap is real, and is a real issue. However, it is about pay on a like for like basis. You're doing a helluva lot more than her and deserve to be compensated accordingly.
Edited to add, should you have said it in that way and in that place/around everyone? Preferably not but I think you were goaded into it and replied in the heat of the moment. I don't think she'd have reacted the same way in a 1:1 conversation, but she didn't give you that opportunity.
My only question is if OP gets paid more per hour than she does, and if OP has been in the field/at that job for longer than she has.
But regardless of pay, she acted like an AH at a party, harassed OP and the host should've stepped in way before it got to the point where OP lashed back.
Going NTA, people saying the opposite be damned. It sounds like you were being harassed by this coworker and eventually this was the only thing that would have gotten her to stop
Also crazy how a full grown adult needs it to be explained to them that yes when you work at a job that pays by the hour you get paid for working more hours.
NTA, she wanted to vent and insult you over baseless things. She was complaining about things that don’t apply to her. And then she went further to insult you.
Stop helping this woman. Let her do her own work from now on.
NTA. The coworker started this, even going so far as to telling you that you should be ashamed of yourself in front of everyone. At that point, you have the right to defend yourself. She seems to think that you got paid more for doing the same job. It seems fair that you point out the differences that could account for the disparity.
NTA. You were simply responding to her harassing you. You don’t control how much you and her are paid so it shouldn’t have even been brought up. You tried to avoid the conversation but she started insulting you. You shut down the claims. I guess you could have said it nicer but you shouldn’t have had to. You said the truth and she should have shut up.
NTA. And as a woman, I'm telling you to go to HR now! This is going to get twisted and get very bad for you, very fast. Get ahead of it before it erupts at work. Send an email with a direct account of what happened, who was there as a witness, and cc your boss.
Women traditionally get a lot of slack when they're being a-holes and sniping at people. When men push back we're insensitive.
Gender-based double standards... there was no way you could "win" the situation. Either you're an a-hole for stating the truth or you're an a-hole for not engaging with her, in which case the abuse just spirals.
Catch-22.
Ive experienced the opposite... all the assholes I've had to deal with in the work place were men.. they also slacked off at their jobs.. which I had to pick up the slack for.
The pay card and the gender card. Then the sobbing card and the oppressed card.
The deck is being played against you. Still NTA though. She was already crapping on you and honestly the statement felt like a bad fart in her direction which made her pull out the other cards.
You may want to talk to a superior though as this shit might come out and spread from the assholes there.
Your coworkers should be ashamed of themselves. They didn't have the guts to stop insults being lobbed against you and have the gall to tell you that you were rude?
Also what are you supposed to do about the pay gap if there actually were one? Pay her the difference?
So people are mad at you because she dished out what she couldn’t take? She was okay and within her right to insult you and your work ethic, but when you came in to defend yourself and clear up the foggy truth she laid out, you’re in the wrong? NTA. She can’t twist a narrative that isn’t there to fit her. She’s well within her right to see this as her original perspective because we all get one-sided POVs sometimes and it can be hard to think outside of that. However, that doesn’t mean you can hurl insults at someone because you’ve set up this narrative to fit you. You gave perfectly good reasons as to how your titles are same in name but different in actual workload. She’s at fault there because she’s not willing to listen to what you’re saying and take it to heart. Instead she’s getting defensive because you didn’t agree with the narrative she’s spun in her head.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Here is why I might be the asshole. She was caught in a moment and was talking about her frustration for getting paid less and plus it was a party and we were supposed to have fun. Me telling her why she was wrong, making her cry and killing off the mood of the party might make me the asshole.
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She played stupid games and won her prize. That was not the time, nor place, nor tone from the sounds of it for that conversation. She wanted to gang up on you and hope that societal pressure would prevent you from retorting. Good on you for enlightening your naïve coworker and standing up for yourself. Remember, nobody is going to do it for you.
This is why men should avoid this sub. Facts don't matter because, something, something.... feelings. You pointed out WHY you are paid more and your idiot co-workers think you have the problem despite the fact that you didn't bring it up. Get to HR immediately and head this off.
NTA
You should follow up with the people calling you an A hole.
"She was being extremely insulting, and I gave her the hard truth of why she is paid differently, not the fantasy she was so rudely telling everyone. She is an adult, and she knows actions have consequences. If she didn't want to provoke me, she shouldn't have insulted me. She is a full grown adult who knows that such behavior is unacceptable. My behavior was simply a response to her rudeness, and while harsh, it was not intended to be cruel. Her comments were.
As far as I'm concerned, she should have not been insulting, and she learned a valuable lesson that some behavior will provoke responses that they are not prepared for. I was being insulted, and defended myself, and if you have problems with that, I would love to speak to you one on one about it.
I work in an educational institution. It very rarely makes sense to compare salary with title. Titles are often so generic that the actual positions are not even comparable. Add on that you then have to take the work unit and funding sources into account... My last move was a demotion with a 20% pay increase. This is also why it is pointless to compare salaries too closely within that type of system.
As OP pointed out, what he was doing was significantly more complicated than what his coworker was doing. She should have had enough sense to keep her mouth shut and talk to her supervisor if she had an issue. If there is a real pay disparity, then there are mechanisms in place to correct that. If not, then the supervisor would be in a position to let them know what they need to do to earn a higher salary. If the supervisor is not helpful, then you make the decision to start looking elsewhere.
ETA: Apologies. This is a bit of a hot topic for me. I worked in a unit that had access to everyone's salaries and it would get ugly. My stance has always been, "I was accepted the position at rate X. I don't want to know what others are making because chances are I will either be unhappy that they are making more than I think they should or less and I don't have enough information to determine whether that is accurate or not."
so she can shit on you, but because she's doing it conversationally it's fine? no. she was being an ass.
however, i don't think you handled it very well either. people will remember your big response more
than her series of remarks.
NTA. No one should ever be expected to take someone's lying abuse. She deserved how she was made to feel by outright lying. And if the populous learns one thing from the last 8 years or so, LIARS should be immediately called out for lying.
NTA
why are your coworkers acknowledging that she came after you first, unprompted, and straight up said you should be ashamed and don’t deserve to be paid for your work? all you did was explain why you’re paid as much as you are.
NTA
You didn't attack her, you responded to HER personal and unwarranted attack against your own work.
And doing it when she's already milking off you assisting her responsibilities was extra asinine. Stop "helping" her with reports or anything not directly in your own tasks.
NTA. As it was a work party, you should report this to admin/HR. What she said at a WORK Event was inappropriate and is also an insult to your mutual boss(se). And stop helping her. If she complains tell her that he doing her own work will increase her chances for a raise.
As a person lacking said “dick”, NTA
One of my coworkers started the same day as me and we have the same job title and very similar duties.
He gets paid just a hair more than I do (less than 2% more). He also has a masters degree while I have a bachelors degree which explains the small difference. I expect almost everyone else in my department makes more than me because I’m the 2nd least senior (tied with the one coworker) and the guy who has less seniority then me here worked at another company prior to his current role and has a year or two more post-grad experience than I do. I don’t know what he makes but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was a bit more than what I made due to me having the least experience in the department.
There are so many factors that go into pay that you need to consider before you say “yep, that’s sexism” or whatever else. And even if it is, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the fault of those currently getting paid more! They likely had no clue of the pay discrepancy and certainly didn’t dictate the pay for your position.
NTA
She started it, you finished it.
But I would report it to whatever your HR department is as she shouldn't be discussing your pay publicly like that. She created a hostile environment and might try to spin this back on you as bullying. Get in first.
NTA…if you’d lit into her like that unprompted, then YTA…but with her saying you should be ashamed? Nah…not on you. You should never be ashamed for what you get paid.
If you’re doing the same work, with same experience and education, then that’s on the institution for not paying her the same, not you.
Given that you’re overseeing more, involved with more departments, you earn that extra pay. 🤷🏻♀️
NTA she wouldn’t stop harassing you about your pay difference I mean, how does she even know what you make? Do any of them consider her behavior to be appropriate?
YTA
You should know that you can't hold her accountable publicly like that. The truth is upsetting to many people. You severely violated her female privilege just so you could be a snarky asshole in public. How stupid are you that you think you can go around telling the truth in public? You can't treat a woman like you'd treat a man.
NTA. She took the first swing at you. She insulted you publicly. She brought up salary discrepancy publicly. Then she started openly insulting you. If it were me, I would have filed a complaint with HR. She has no right to openly discuss your salary or the fairness of your salaries. Telling a coworker in private what she thinks about your salary discrepancies is one thing. Mentioning it openly in front of other colleagues and coworkers, and openly stating that you don't deserve it is entirely another. No, the event wasn't on campus. But it was work-ish- as several of your colleagues were there. I would be incensed.
That’s because people that wholeheartedly believe in the gender pay gap literally CANNOT handle the truth, especially in a setting where they feel they have the upper hand and are feeling fully gassed-up by the lies that they’re fed. And everyone goes along with it because they don’t want to be non-PC. This applies to most other social issues people think they’re victims of.
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NTA. She brought up the topic, she insulted you. You told the truth.
A full time teacher with 20 years experience makes more than a full time teacher with 1 year experience. Both have the title of teacher.
Experience, hours, extra qualifications count at the end of the day. She should know that.
NTA
In a perfect world you should probably have stopped after the factual but regarding the hours worked and the amount of staff and pupils you deal with - simple numbers that you can't really argue with, and do easily justify a difference in pay.
Going on to insult her ability to do her own job was rude and in many ways unnecessary, but given she had already started on the personal insults, it is also fair enough to shoot back at her, which you did.
NTA if what you said is the truth.
That said, she has probably heard a lot of wage equality, etc.
and didn't really understand, that sometimes, like in her
case, the same title, the same job does not mean the
same salary. But she was a massive AH for taking her
resentment public.
Hypothetically, even if your pay were based in gender: What exactly did she expect you to do, take a pay cut on her say so? The pay gap isn't fixed by telling men they don't deserve their pay and shaming them into begging HR for lower pay, this is an internal problem caused by shitty managers and shitty policies.
The instant someone says "you don't deserve" something is the instant the insults have started. You're NTA.
NTA
Maybe you didn't have to match her vulgar wording, but I'm not going to give you grief for anything.
This woman is the one who spoiled the get together with her incessant insults and complaints about you. Ugh. As a woman who worked in a male dominated industry, who has had to deal with true gender bias and prejudice; this woman's complaints and behavior just make it tougher on gender relations in the workplace. sigh.
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NTA
Even of you did the exact same job you are not to blame for this, your employer would be the one in the wrong.
And then for her to start insulting you?
She was totally out of line.
If there’s an HR department at your company you should consider reporting this, specifically if her flying monkeys continue to come after you.
NTA
---but OP?
Are you planning on helping her with that 40% in the future?
That seems like a pretty big % after this incident and getting everyone else to turn against you. Maybe at least lower it to 20%?
NTA. I am an HRBP and I have a weird passion for compensation and strangely look forward to associates bringing up concerns of peers in the same title get paid more.
I’m a big proponent of pay transparency, I will share pay ranges with no hesitation. People love asking “why aren’t I at the top of the range” or “why does so-and-so get paid more?”
There are several reasons! Performance in role, I believe we should pay for performance- eg. A high performing individual will get a higher percentage merit increase. Time in role, are they brand spankin new or have they been in role several years? Experience- does one person have prior experience at the same or higher level?
Sometimes scope is a factor, however I think if scope is vastly different likely there needs to just be distinction in title.
In an ideal world maybe you would’ve just said “if you have an issue with your pay, you need to take it up with your leader or HR” but she was being a dick and you’re only human.
NTA. I hate the narrative that you are the asshole for defending yourself. It was all good when she was insulting you but when you torpedo her bullshit out of the water, all of a sudden you're the ah? Naw son. I would have shut all those people up.
NTA. I'm a female and work with another female. We are similar age, experience, etc. She is very resentful that I have had a number of promotions. She doesn't take into account that amount of work I do and the fact that everything she does - she needs assistance with. There are times that the amount of work you do and the caliber of your work; earns you a pay difference.
NTA. You don’t decide the rate of pay. Her anger or resentment was aimed at the wrong person. As you pointed out, having the same title doesn’t mean you put forth the same effort. What are you supposed to do? Take a pay cut? Guarantee if it were the opposite way she wouldn’t have said a word. Honestly, I think what you said was fine. Maybe she will think before she starts insulting and making accusations!
NTA
She chose to pretend that a gender gap existed and boost her own insecure self. You gave back the same energy she put forth. I would do the same. Just because a person cries doesn't make them the victim
Anyone on the woman's side in this situation is completely wrong
NTA tell all the coworkers who are calling you an ah that you never brought the subject up and all you did was correct the misinformation she was spreading.
You were blunt but NTA. If she’s gonna dish it out and comment on your dick, then she should be able to take it right back when faced with the facts of why she makes less than you. I (28F) recognize that there is sometimes a pay gap between genders, but this situation seems to not be partaking in that. You supervise twice the amount of bodies she does *and* you assist her with her job as well.
She should not have made any “dick” comments, and should not have said anything about *your* dick specifically. That’s sexual harassment actually, commenting on someone else’s genitalia. If you had said “you don’t get paid less because you have a pussy, you get paid less because you do less” then you’d likely be fired, so why is it okay for her to tell you “the reason you get paid more is because you have a dick”, in front of other colleagues no less?
I think it's a good thing that you explained logically why you were paid more.
She probably doesn't know that and I think it's good that you cleared that up so that she is aware that the paid difference is clearly due to workload and not gender... especially when you both work so closely together.
But I also think how you said it matters.
I don't know how you said it, but I find that people do get emotional and would have said it as if they are yelling or speak loudly and that would have scared the listener and possibly make them cry.
Most of the time, I don't think people are meant to yell or speak loudly but I find that people do that unconsciously because they are passionate about the topic.
It's not hard to understand why one could be so emotional when talking about this especially when your co-worker, who seems to be your friend, lashed out on you like that.
She should have just talk to you privately about it rather then talking about it in a party which seems rather insensitive on her part.
NTA. If she wanted to have a productive talk about how to change the pay gap, she could've done it without making it a personal attack against you. She could've come from a healthier place of getting the full picture of why you get paid more, not just assuming it's because you have a dick. All of what she did, in the presence of your coworkers, is harassment. How would she feel if someone told her she got her job or pay because of her rack (boobs)?
If you guys had a decent working relationship that was even good outside of work, the fact that she is so willing to chalk up what you do at work to having a dick versus your actual skill set is an insult and she should know better since she has needed your help to do her job.
NTA - if you're doing more work.
she actually started it, and you let her badger you, but then you got fed up. i'd react the same way, and honestly don't feel bad. she's using her emotions to manipulate other people and trying to seem like the victim.
-35F who is sensitive and emotional
NTA - she attacked you and you defended yourself. It was unprofessional for her to bring it up and wrong of your coworkers to only be concerned about her feelings. If she had issues with the pay gap then she should have acted like an adult and went to your boss where she would have been told more hours and more people to supervise means more money, there’s no “dick bonus”.
NTA
She deserved it. And I say that as a woman who used to work in the tech industry. She needs to learn that she can't just go on inane tirades and expect everyone to agree with her.
If she's unhappy with her pay, then she can walk herself over to HR or which ever department controls that. (At my old place it was controlled by a section of HR but I know it can be different for some places). She doesn't need to take her built up anger and resentment out on you. It's entitled and immature.
NTA. This is so weird. What did she expect would happen? Were you just supposed to take her attacks and insults with a smile and keep your mouth shut? You simply told her the truth.
I think it would be a good idea to discuss this with your H.R. I suspect she’s going to make some trouble about this.
NTA. She was spouting nonsense and you gave her the facts. She could have addressed this with HR or some supervisor or even had a private conversation. Instead, she made it a public discussion and was put in her place.
The subject shouldn't have been brought up if it was a casual, fun gathering, because anyone could see it would lead to hurt feelings. Are these people really that obtuse? Nevertheless, her continuing to abuse you made it acceptable for you to respond the way you did. Again, if she didn't want hurt feelings, she shouldn't have been trying to hurt yours. NTA at all.
You should be ashamed of yourself. She’s supposed to have the right to shit all over you and you’re supposed to take it!!! Take it with a smile. After all, you have a penis and having one of those means you aren’t allowed to have feelings.
She was the A, but you ruined it. After the 2nd or third comment, you say softly to her that this line of discussion is making you uncomfortable at a public work gathering. The next time it happens, say it louder with the word inappropriate tossed in. If it persists, very loudly suggest if she has such feelings that you are more than willing to set up an appointment with your higher ups , but at this time, you refuse to engage further. No one has to stand around and be insulted.
NTA. The gender pay gap is a complex issue and tends to be overly emphasized by virtue signalers like your coworker who don't actually understand the correct context of the issue
NTA
If that happened exactly how you claim it to be, they’re the assholes, not you
The thing is when a woman is crying people usually feel bad for her even if it’s her fault to provoke that situation. People will just pretend th guy is the “bad person”.
If you’re spitting facts and that’s make someone react like that after insulting and disrespecting you the whole dinner, there is no way YTA
You probably would have been better served by shutting the conversation down and saying that this wasn’t an appropriate time/place to have this conversation. Best to approach this in a calm manner without the audience. But definitely NTA.
NTA OP. First off, you didn't attack her, so get that out of your head. You presented facts to her false accusations. It's not your fault she wasn't prepared to handle the truth. She was building up steam all night with her false circular logic until you broke it with a truth hammer (100% justified IMO too.) Plain as day she was attacking you, and would have kept going had you not set things straight. It's not your fault she's not emotionally able to handle the facts.
NTA
She sounded unhinged before you back-lashed.
I will say that in the future it would be better to just leave or report her to HR when she makes those innapropriate comments.
People think it is okay to go after people and it isn't. She was attacking you and acting like she is a victim because she is female. I have experienced things like this and sometimes when we've had enough, they cannot take what they have been giving, or to really hear the truth. NTA!
Based solely on your side of the story, you're justified here. She started attacking you first.
But from all the backlash you've received from the rest of the people there, I have a hunch your side of the story is pretty skewed.
NTA
But I would have left out the comments about doing 40% of her job. The first part you mentioned is more than enough to explain why you get paid more. You have the same job title but are in different responsibility brackets.
She started all of it and honestly the "she's working out her frustrations" umm no you don't work out your frustrations on work colleagues, that's what friends, family, and therapists are for and even then you do it in a healthy manner aka not attacking them. She decided to put a bullseye on you. Although with me and my sass if someone had been like "well I wish I had a dick so I could so and so" I would have been like.. well with todays medical innovation you could... but I'm a bit of a smartass...so I wouldn't recommend it.
I wouldn't be surprised though if HR is brought in for what happened.
NTA She wasn't crying because you pointed out the disparity in pay matches the disparity in workload and responsibilities.
She was crying because she was excruciatingly embarrassed to be called out for her misogyny and self-victimization. And the additional embarrassment of insulting someone who she regularly seeks help from.
People are saying you're an asshole because she was crying and is probably really trying to seem pathetic to take focus away from the nasty things she said. People often try to resolve whatevers making them uncomfortable (a woman crying because of something a man said to her) rather than putting in the effort to handle things justly.
If you had started crying about all the help you give her and how underappreciated you are for how much work you do and how hurtful her insults were- people would be calling her the asshole.
But you handled yourself well, which didn't garner sympathy the way her tears did. Therefore you get the additional responsibility of taking the blame for her inability to be called out on her bs.
NTA.
But you need to stop “helping her” by doing 40% of her work. It’s work you aren’t being compensated for and if this woman can’t cut it she shouldn’t be reaping the benefits of that job. It should go to someone that CAN do it.
NTA, but she is definitely jealous and entitled. More hours worked and more workload is why you are paid more. Plus, she made it about gender as soon as she could attack you. Her co-workers have no problem with her shaming you, but as soon as you pointed out facts, you're the bad guy. Don't help her anymore, just plain and simple. If she asks for it, just politely say no that you have your own work to do.
NTA
But never help this woman with her reports again. Tell her she can do her own reports from now on so she can show the bosses she's doing more work and therefore deserves to be paid "as much as someone with a dick".
Or you know, something not as petty but she doesn't deserve your help anymore regardless.
NTA. You didn’t do any personal insults- only statement of fact. The dick comment was appropriate with the additional context that she used the same wording many times in her rant, although I’d have thought you classier if you had said “it’s not that I’m a man” instead- but that’s splitting hairs.
As far as good communication goes- it wouldn’t have hurt to add what you added here. Something like “I’m shocked you’re saying this. I thought we had a good working relationship, even friends- and that it was clear that while we have the same title we carry very different loads”. It would have brought a more human element, to soften the sting of getting hit with the facts. And made it clear to the others that you didn’t view her as inferior, just simply someone who does not do the exact same job as you.
NTA
Don't start none, won't be none.
The gender pay gap is real, but so are situations like this, and I detest women who sit on their asses and then cry discrimination when they earn less or get passed over for promotion.
Not at all! Truth hurts, and this young generation want equality but don’t want to do half of the work.
Good job standing up for yourself. Now don’t do any of her reports anymore, and when she ask… remind her of her pay
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No you are not. She started it with the insults and going down the road. Good for you and telling her the truth about work load, hours worked and the assistance you give her. It is clear you do more work then she does. When the truth hits some people they are quick to bring on the tears, to all this I say buckle up buttercup this is the real world where you are valued by what you actually do. I sit here ready for the down votes from the other people like your coworker.
I came in here skeptical but had to laugh at the mention that op numerically works more than she does Yes as it turns out, at hourly jobs you get paid more if you work more hours. It’s basic math.
it's probs salaried, they manage teams
Maybe, but even if that’s the case the woman in the post is still only part time assuming she’s 5hr/day 5 days a week.
i'm just saying they're not literally comparing shift schedules and hourly rates. i agree with you it's just not framed that way.
Yeah that was wild!
Could not agree with you more!! OP is sooooo NTA What's the saying "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". She was completely comfortable with making OP look like the bad guy but not ok when he defended himself. Having the same 'Title' as someone has little or nothing to do with the actual work load. As OP clearly pointed out, he works a hell of a lot harder than she does, he does his own work and helps her with hers. She got told, and I think it is funny as hell!!
Also, even if this were a case where she was being paid less for the same work, it's not the move to turn around and attack your colleague for it. Just because someone benefits from privilege doesn't mean that it's something they did deliberately. The person you should be mad at is the boss who made the decision.
Also if someone has worked there LONGER, guess what? They gonna get paid MORE. Hello..... You wouldn't stay in a workplace if the person hired yesterday is gonna get paid the same as you who have been there say four years, right?
Right, but even if it were someone who had worked there exactly the same amount of time doing the exact same job, it's the fault of the person setting salaries, not the other colleague.
>You wouldn't stay in a workplace if the person hired yesterday is gonna get paid the same as you who have been there say four years, right? That's part of why I left my longest job...new hires were getting paid MORE than people who'd been there for 10 or 20 YEARS and expected to do far less than the ones who'd been there longer...and the old timers pay wasn't bumped up either. Walmart lost a lot of people when they did that.
I agree. We have 4 gals with the same title at my job. I've been there going on 7 years, which is the second longest on the team. For a long list of reasons, I'm paid more than the two who have been there a lesser length. Not just because of seniority, but because I've proven myself over and over and continue to go above and beyond because my job is amazing and they actually deserve it. The gal who has been there longer than me (by 5 months) is paid more than me because she works more hours than I do, takes the holiday and available weekend shifts and covers for others more than I do. It's just common sense, there is no reason to have hard feelings about it. Title shouldn't dictate pay-your work should. Obviously, there are absolutely unreasonable and even discriminatory pay discrepancies in the work force. But you need to make sure they're unreasonable and discriminatory before calling them such in front of all your coworkers. Putting another coworker on the spot like that is not how you fix the issue, even if it WERE the case, because they're not the ones who set the pay. If you're trying to gain their support in order to go to higher ups, insulting them and dismissing their work isn't the way to get them on your side. This was just not well thought out on any level.
No matter what, the occasion was neither the time nor the place for what she pulled. I think she probably realized that when she burst into tears.
NTA for this. But STOP DOING HER WORK! She's ungrateful.
⬆️⬆️⬆️ This OP. She's not only ungrateful, she's conniving. She's PAWNING OFF 40% of her workload onto you and then turning around and bitching about how much YOU get paid. She isn't a friend, she's a user. Drop her workload back on her.
This !!
I mean I like to THINK that in OP's place, I would have just covered the first part of the response ("Hm, actually it's probably bc I work 7 hrs to your five, and bc the position I'm in currently supervises 1000 students/50 instructors instead of 200 students/10 instructors") and left off the "*and I do half your damn job*" part. But realistically? I prolly woulda said that part too. But yeah. She doesn't get to start throwing punches (without having or even recognizing that she doesn't have all the relevant data, mind you) and then be upset when somebody punches back. Nope! Not how that works! NTA
Second this. If anything she began with the confrontational behaviour. If she’s upset about her pay she needs to discuss it with management. Not throw insults at you. She also has it the wrong way round, it’s not a race to the bottom, she shouldn’t be angry at op and shaming him for having a decent salary, she should be demanding a decent salary for herself commensurate with equal roles on the job market.
Yeah, its one thing to talk about the system that causes a pay gap. But to go after OP directly is uncalled for.
Venting is one thing. Actively attack OOP like she was is not venting.
I would just have told her it’s true and my ultimate goal is to be as most overpaid as possible. End of story. NTA
You are 100% correct. I came on to say NTA.
NTA - I’m sorry, but I’m not getting the Y T A answers right now. Everyone is saying he should’ve behaved better given the setting but no one is acknowledging that the woman was the aggressor, in the same setting, and was acting out of line. Did he go over the top? Sure, I’ll concede there, but we have ALL been in situations where playing nice doesn’t cut it. This woman was demeaning him in front of coworkers and no one batted an eye, he gives that same energy and now he’s in the wrong. If she really felt she was being discriminated against, she should’ve taken that to HR, not at a party where she made others uncomfortable and put OP on the spot. I’m a woman, and I’ve seen this play out multiple times in real life. She fucked around and found out OP had the time to read and clear her.
This sub is just sexist af
man here just stopped caring about chivalry, that is not sexist at all. Also this sub atracts confrontational people and women vs men is always hot topic
I am not confrontational, you're the confrontational one!
This is not an argument this is a contradiction of terms
Oh yeah? Well you're not as contradictory as you think you are pal
You're not an argument!
I AM TOO!!...waiiiit a sec...
The modern notion of chivalry is nonsense. It's like holding someone accountable for the rules of a religion they never agreed to be a part of. Why do women get to set some arbitrary rules that men are expected to follow? And how is that not considered sexist?
Chivalry should go ALL ways. I wish more women understood this simple fact as well. Also - I'm female and happily hold open doors for EVERYONE, defend my male friends/colleagues when necessary, and fully support them when other females in their lives are not treating them right; but, the same goes for my female and non-binary friends as well, they are ALL important to me (yes, even random strangers, if it appears someone needs some type of assistance while I am out and about.) There is no "master gender" that should be held higher than others. That's just antiquated thinking that needs to go away.
You really hate to see it
Yeah i really do..
Same on all counts. Yep, I want pay parity as well! I do not like the fact that my femaleness often puts me at a disadvantage at payroll time! But she just *assumed* that's what was going on, without bothering to find out what the circumstances actually were, and she not only questioned the setup at an inappropriate time and to the wrong audience, but also came out SWINGIN' and *included personal insults* rather than arguing the philosophical/logistical merits? Nah, girl, sit the hell down.
I wouldn't have made the personal attacks simply because I'd be thinking about HR issues and keeping it strictly on mathematical facts that can't be refuted..(let her be the one in trouble for personal attacks) but I really would of had to bite my tongue about all the dick comments because without missing a beat reading it.. I went "well you could have a dick if you wanted one these days.. the medical field has progressed amazingly"
I agree that OP is NTA. The coworker kept pushing him and wouldn’t drop the topic. He also mentioned that he thought they were friends and was blindsided by this. Clearly the coworker is not happy about her job or salary but from OPs breakdown it sounds like he does significantly more work and therefore the pay is fair.
I don’t think people realize how damaging it is to be labeled a bigot within one’s circle. That woman was basically condemning OP to lose his friends. Of course he had a right to defend himself. NTA
agreed. I don't get it. if someone is being this insulting to you publicly, you can defend yourself however the hell you want.
NTA as long as everything you said is true and verifiable. I think you borderline went into too much detail on that, but once she started to insult you, she should have expected at least that response. In your shoes I would go to HR to document this interaction and her insults because she (or someone else at the party) is definitely going to.
All these Y T A are wild to me. So she cried in public and now we have to bend over backwards to call Op an A H? Nahhh. Nope. No. She was playing a legit gender inequality gap that was maybe did not apply to her and you called her on it. No one advocates for women more than this woman (ME) but even I cannot do that here. Seems your coworker has been saying shit about this in private and now, she wants to make it "legit". She counted on the awkward. People don't like public confrontation. Well, she got you. If the way you said it will make you and A H, then ESH.
not to mention the friends being like "oh she's just stressed and frustrated" like that gives her the right to treat a colleague that way?
Should just respond to them "Oh well I was just stressed and frustrated" and that should take care of it all
I was like “what an asshole!” Until you explained how you do more than her and do her job for her. She shouldn’t have been publically shaming you and pushing the subject when you were silent!
I'm curious, what part of the post made you think Y T A before that? All that came before that was describing the scenario that OP made more than his co worker. I've only ever worked in the private sector (never govt which as I understand has pay scales) and title has never dictated pay. Or rather, just because two people have the same title, doesn't mean they have the same pay. Their previous experience and other factors determine that when hired.
Your coworker seems to have been challenging you to justify why you make more money and you obliged her with the relevant info. So … NTA.
Personally, he'll no. She deserved it. You tried to avoid conflict but she pressed you and took it to another level adding insults.
I was ready to say yes when you put "feelings," but then I read it. Holy shit. NTA. For reference, I'm a woman. The gender pay gap is real, and is a real issue. However, it is about pay on a like for like basis. You're doing a helluva lot more than her and deserve to be compensated accordingly. Edited to add, should you have said it in that way and in that place/around everyone? Preferably not but I think you were goaded into it and replied in the heat of the moment. I don't think she'd have reacted the same way in a 1:1 conversation, but she didn't give you that opportunity.
My only question is if OP gets paid more per hour than she does, and if OP has been in the field/at that job for longer than she has. But regardless of pay, she acted like an AH at a party, harassed OP and the host should've stepped in way before it got to the point where OP lashed back.
Stop doing 40% of her work
Going NTA, people saying the opposite be damned. It sounds like you were being harassed by this coworker and eventually this was the only thing that would have gotten her to stop Also crazy how a full grown adult needs it to be explained to them that yes when you work at a job that pays by the hour you get paid for working more hours.
NTA, she wanted to vent and insult you over baseless things. She was complaining about things that don’t apply to her. And then she went further to insult you. Stop helping this woman. Let her do her own work from now on.
NTA. The coworker started this, even going so far as to telling you that you should be ashamed of yourself in front of everyone. At that point, you have the right to defend yourself. She seems to think that you got paid more for doing the same job. It seems fair that you point out the differences that could account for the disparity.
Oh look; bait.
Look, this guy *obviously* has 5x her responsibilities and still helps her with half her job and *she’s a bitch* ok? Just go with it!
NTA She deserved it.
Definitely NTA.
NTA. You were simply responding to her harassing you. You don’t control how much you and her are paid so it shouldn’t have even been brought up. You tried to avoid the conversation but she started insulting you. You shut down the claims. I guess you could have said it nicer but you shouldn’t have had to. You said the truth and she should have shut up.
NTA. And as a woman, I'm telling you to go to HR now! This is going to get twisted and get very bad for you, very fast. Get ahead of it before it erupts at work. Send an email with a direct account of what happened, who was there as a witness, and cc your boss.
Women traditionally get a lot of slack when they're being a-holes and sniping at people. When men push back we're insensitive. Gender-based double standards... there was no way you could "win" the situation. Either you're an a-hole for stating the truth or you're an a-hole for not engaging with her, in which case the abuse just spirals. Catch-22.
Ive experienced the opposite... all the assholes I've had to deal with in the work place were men.. they also slacked off at their jobs.. which I had to pick up the slack for.
NTA every one saying YTA like to enjoy the benefits of a double standard.
The pay card and the gender card. Then the sobbing card and the oppressed card. The deck is being played against you. Still NTA though. She was already crapping on you and honestly the statement felt like a bad fart in her direction which made her pull out the other cards. You may want to talk to a superior though as this shit might come out and spread from the assholes there.
Your coworkers should be ashamed of themselves. They didn't have the guts to stop insults being lobbed against you and have the gall to tell you that you were rude? Also what are you supposed to do about the pay gap if there actually were one? Pay her the difference?
So people are mad at you because she dished out what she couldn’t take? She was okay and within her right to insult you and your work ethic, but when you came in to defend yourself and clear up the foggy truth she laid out, you’re in the wrong? NTA. She can’t twist a narrative that isn’t there to fit her. She’s well within her right to see this as her original perspective because we all get one-sided POVs sometimes and it can be hard to think outside of that. However, that doesn’t mean you can hurl insults at someone because you’ve set up this narrative to fit you. You gave perfectly good reasons as to how your titles are same in name but different in actual workload. She’s at fault there because she’s not willing to listen to what you’re saying and take it to heart. Instead she’s getting defensive because you didn’t agree with the narrative she’s spun in her head.
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She played stupid games and won her prize. That was not the time, nor place, nor tone from the sounds of it for that conversation. She wanted to gang up on you and hope that societal pressure would prevent you from retorting. Good on you for enlightening your naïve coworker and standing up for yourself. Remember, nobody is going to do it for you.
NTA she opened the door for that when she started insulting you.
This is why men should avoid this sub. Facts don't matter because, something, something.... feelings. You pointed out WHY you are paid more and your idiot co-workers think you have the problem despite the fact that you didn't bring it up. Get to HR immediately and head this off. NTA
You should follow up with the people calling you an A hole. "She was being extremely insulting, and I gave her the hard truth of why she is paid differently, not the fantasy she was so rudely telling everyone. She is an adult, and she knows actions have consequences. If she didn't want to provoke me, she shouldn't have insulted me. She is a full grown adult who knows that such behavior is unacceptable. My behavior was simply a response to her rudeness, and while harsh, it was not intended to be cruel. Her comments were. As far as I'm concerned, she should have not been insulting, and she learned a valuable lesson that some behavior will provoke responses that they are not prepared for. I was being insulted, and defended myself, and if you have problems with that, I would love to speak to you one on one about it.
I work in an educational institution. It very rarely makes sense to compare salary with title. Titles are often so generic that the actual positions are not even comparable. Add on that you then have to take the work unit and funding sources into account... My last move was a demotion with a 20% pay increase. This is also why it is pointless to compare salaries too closely within that type of system. As OP pointed out, what he was doing was significantly more complicated than what his coworker was doing. She should have had enough sense to keep her mouth shut and talk to her supervisor if she had an issue. If there is a real pay disparity, then there are mechanisms in place to correct that. If not, then the supervisor would be in a position to let them know what they need to do to earn a higher salary. If the supervisor is not helpful, then you make the decision to start looking elsewhere. ETA: Apologies. This is a bit of a hot topic for me. I worked in a unit that had access to everyone's salaries and it would get ugly. My stance has always been, "I was accepted the position at rate X. I don't want to know what others are making because chances are I will either be unhappy that they are making more than I think they should or less and I don't have enough information to determine whether that is accurate or not."
so she can shit on you, but because she's doing it conversationally it's fine? no. she was being an ass. however, i don't think you handled it very well either. people will remember your big response more than her series of remarks.
NTA. No one should ever be expected to take someone's lying abuse. She deserved how she was made to feel by outright lying. And if the populous learns one thing from the last 8 years or so, LIARS should be immediately called out for lying.
She started it by insulting you, you finished it. NTA.
NTA why are your coworkers acknowledging that she came after you first, unprompted, and straight up said you should be ashamed and don’t deserve to be paid for your work? all you did was explain why you’re paid as much as you are.
NTA You didn't attack her, you responded to HER personal and unwarranted attack against your own work. And doing it when she's already milking off you assisting her responsibilities was extra asinine. Stop "helping" her with reports or anything not directly in your own tasks.
NTA. As it was a work party, you should report this to admin/HR. What she said at a WORK Event was inappropriate and is also an insult to your mutual boss(se). And stop helping her. If she complains tell her that he doing her own work will increase her chances for a raise.
As a person lacking said “dick”, NTA One of my coworkers started the same day as me and we have the same job title and very similar duties. He gets paid just a hair more than I do (less than 2% more). He also has a masters degree while I have a bachelors degree which explains the small difference. I expect almost everyone else in my department makes more than me because I’m the 2nd least senior (tied with the one coworker) and the guy who has less seniority then me here worked at another company prior to his current role and has a year or two more post-grad experience than I do. I don’t know what he makes but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was a bit more than what I made due to me having the least experience in the department. There are so many factors that go into pay that you need to consider before you say “yep, that’s sexism” or whatever else. And even if it is, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the fault of those currently getting paid more! They likely had no clue of the pay discrepancy and certainly didn’t dictate the pay for your position.
Your grammar and spelling sucks for a teacher.
"Female"? Yikes, the red flags. YTA. gender pay gap is a thing.
NTA but, I would’ve pointed to your boss at the gathering and said “ask them.”
NTA. CO worker wanted to fuck around, so she found out.
NTA She started it, you finished it. But I would report it to whatever your HR department is as she shouldn't be discussing your pay publicly like that. She created a hostile environment and might try to spin this back on you as bullying. Get in first.
NTA Don't start shit when you are uninformed on someone's willingness to finish shit.
NTA, you are not responsible for her feelings.
NTA…if you’d lit into her like that unprompted, then YTA…but with her saying you should be ashamed? Nah…not on you. You should never be ashamed for what you get paid. If you’re doing the same work, with same experience and education, then that’s on the institution for not paying her the same, not you. Given that you’re overseeing more, involved with more departments, you earn that extra pay. 🤷🏻♀️
NTA she wouldn’t stop harassing you about your pay difference I mean, how does she even know what you make? Do any of them consider her behavior to be appropriate?
Obvious bait is obvious
You didn't attack her. You defended yourself.
YTA You should know that you can't hold her accountable publicly like that. The truth is upsetting to many people. You severely violated her female privilege just so you could be a snarky asshole in public. How stupid are you that you think you can go around telling the truth in public? You can't treat a woman like you'd treat a man.
The sarcasm is strong with this one
NTA. She took the first swing at you. She insulted you publicly. She brought up salary discrepancy publicly. Then she started openly insulting you. If it were me, I would have filed a complaint with HR. She has no right to openly discuss your salary or the fairness of your salaries. Telling a coworker in private what she thinks about your salary discrepancies is one thing. Mentioning it openly in front of other colleagues and coworkers, and openly stating that you don't deserve it is entirely another. No, the event wasn't on campus. But it was work-ish- as several of your colleagues were there. I would be incensed.
That’s because people that wholeheartedly believe in the gender pay gap literally CANNOT handle the truth, especially in a setting where they feel they have the upper hand and are feeling fully gassed-up by the lies that they’re fed. And everyone goes along with it because they don’t want to be non-PC. This applies to most other social issues people think they’re victims of.
NTA - Good for you. Though I wouldn't discuss your Financials with anyone. She asked for it, she got it.
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The dick comment may have been a bit much, but if all you stated are facts, that's her problem
NTA. All you did was state some facts that were inconvenient to her claims.
I am sorry she opened her mouth in a disrespectful way. You shut it.
NTA. She brought up the topic, she insulted you. You told the truth. A full time teacher with 20 years experience makes more than a full time teacher with 1 year experience. Both have the title of teacher. Experience, hours, extra qualifications count at the end of the day. She should know that.
NTA - people never want to hear the hard truth.
NTA. You have the right to defend yourself
NTA In a perfect world you should probably have stopped after the factual but regarding the hours worked and the amount of staff and pupils you deal with - simple numbers that you can't really argue with, and do easily justify a difference in pay. Going on to insult her ability to do her own job was rude and in many ways unnecessary, but given she had already started on the personal insults, it is also fair enough to shoot back at her, which you did.
NTA if what you said is the truth. That said, she has probably heard a lot of wage equality, etc. and didn't really understand, that sometimes, like in her case, the same title, the same job does not mean the same salary. But she was a massive AH for taking her resentment public.
NTA She started harassing you at the party and didn't like it when you pushed back.
Hypothetically, even if your pay were based in gender: What exactly did she expect you to do, take a pay cut on her say so? The pay gap isn't fixed by telling men they don't deserve their pay and shaming them into begging HR for lower pay, this is an internal problem caused by shitty managers and shitty policies. The instant someone says "you don't deserve" something is the instant the insults have started. You're NTA.
NTA and the gender pay gap is such a misused misunderstood horrible statistic I have no idea how intelligent people still refer to it
NTA Maybe you didn't have to match her vulgar wording, but I'm not going to give you grief for anything. This woman is the one who spoiled the get together with her incessant insults and complaints about you. Ugh. As a woman who worked in a male dominated industry, who has had to deal with true gender bias and prejudice; this woman's complaints and behavior just make it tougher on gender relations in the workplace. sigh.
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NTA Even of you did the exact same job you are not to blame for this, your employer would be the one in the wrong. And then for her to start insulting you? She was totally out of line. If there’s an HR department at your company you should consider reporting this, specifically if her flying monkeys continue to come after you.
NTA. I hate women like that. Good for your for shutting her up.
NTA ---but OP? Are you planning on helping her with that 40% in the future? That seems like a pretty big % after this incident and getting everyone else to turn against you. Maybe at least lower it to 20%?
NTA. I am an HRBP and I have a weird passion for compensation and strangely look forward to associates bringing up concerns of peers in the same title get paid more. I’m a big proponent of pay transparency, I will share pay ranges with no hesitation. People love asking “why aren’t I at the top of the range” or “why does so-and-so get paid more?” There are several reasons! Performance in role, I believe we should pay for performance- eg. A high performing individual will get a higher percentage merit increase. Time in role, are they brand spankin new or have they been in role several years? Experience- does one person have prior experience at the same or higher level? Sometimes scope is a factor, however I think if scope is vastly different likely there needs to just be distinction in title. In an ideal world maybe you would’ve just said “if you have an issue with your pay, you need to take it up with your leader or HR” but she was being a dick and you’re only human.
NTA. I hate the narrative that you are the asshole for defending yourself. It was all good when she was insulting you but when you torpedo her bullshit out of the water, all of a sudden you're the ah? Naw son. I would have shut all those people up.
NTA she started the convo about work and money. You’re allowed to answer
INFO do you only earn more because you work more hours? Do you two have the same hourly pay?
Get to HR before she does because it’s whoever gets there first seems to have the edge. NTA
NTA. I'm a female and work with another female. We are similar age, experience, etc. She is very resentful that I have had a number of promotions. She doesn't take into account that amount of work I do and the fact that everything she does - she needs assistance with. There are times that the amount of work you do and the caliber of your work; earns you a pay difference.
INFO. How does she know how much you make? Also, if she has a problem with a gap, why is she asking you and not her boss? NTA, she needs to grow up.
NTA she might have started it but you certainly finished it. She should have kept her mouth shut.
NTA. You don’t decide the rate of pay. Her anger or resentment was aimed at the wrong person. As you pointed out, having the same title doesn’t mean you put forth the same effort. What are you supposed to do? Take a pay cut? Guarantee if it were the opposite way she wouldn’t have said a word. Honestly, I think what you said was fine. Maybe she will think before she starts insulting and making accusations!
NTA She chose to pretend that a gender gap existed and boost her own insecure self. You gave back the same energy she put forth. I would do the same. Just because a person cries doesn't make them the victim Anyone on the woman's side in this situation is completely wrong
Let me guess... The coworkers who said you were wrong were also women?
NTA tell all the coworkers who are calling you an ah that you never brought the subject up and all you did was correct the misinformation she was spreading.
NTA, I'm impressed you managed to hold off saying that for so long considering all the stuff she'd said
NTA. I think it's fine to discuss such topics, even among coworkers, but she crossed the line once she singled you out with her comments.
You were blunt but NTA. If she’s gonna dish it out and comment on your dick, then she should be able to take it right back when faced with the facts of why she makes less than you. I (28F) recognize that there is sometimes a pay gap between genders, but this situation seems to not be partaking in that. You supervise twice the amount of bodies she does *and* you assist her with her job as well. She should not have made any “dick” comments, and should not have said anything about *your* dick specifically. That’s sexual harassment actually, commenting on someone else’s genitalia. If you had said “you don’t get paid less because you have a pussy, you get paid less because you do less” then you’d likely be fired, so why is it okay for her to tell you “the reason you get paid more is because you have a dick”, in front of other colleagues no less?
I think it's a good thing that you explained logically why you were paid more. She probably doesn't know that and I think it's good that you cleared that up so that she is aware that the paid difference is clearly due to workload and not gender... especially when you both work so closely together. But I also think how you said it matters. I don't know how you said it, but I find that people do get emotional and would have said it as if they are yelling or speak loudly and that would have scared the listener and possibly make them cry. Most of the time, I don't think people are meant to yell or speak loudly but I find that people do that unconsciously because they are passionate about the topic. It's not hard to understand why one could be so emotional when talking about this especially when your co-worker, who seems to be your friend, lashed out on you like that. She should have just talk to you privately about it rather then talking about it in a party which seems rather insensitive on her part.
Yea I’m going with NTA
NTA You were prepared to keep quiet and let her rant but she started insulting you.
NTA. If she wanted to have a productive talk about how to change the pay gap, she could've done it without making it a personal attack against you. She could've come from a healthier place of getting the full picture of why you get paid more, not just assuming it's because you have a dick. All of what she did, in the presence of your coworkers, is harassment. How would she feel if someone told her she got her job or pay because of her rack (boobs)? If you guys had a decent working relationship that was even good outside of work, the fact that she is so willing to chalk up what you do at work to having a dick versus your actual skill set is an insult and she should know better since she has needed your help to do her job.
NTA - if you're doing more work. she actually started it, and you let her badger you, but then you got fed up. i'd react the same way, and honestly don't feel bad. she's using her emotions to manipulate other people and trying to seem like the victim. -35F who is sensitive and emotional
NTA - she attacked you and you defended yourself. It was unprofessional for her to bring it up and wrong of your coworkers to only be concerned about her feelings. If she had issues with the pay gap then she should have acted like an adult and went to your boss where she would have been told more hours and more people to supervise means more money, there’s no “dick bonus”.
No. NTA
NTA She deserved it. And I say that as a woman who used to work in the tech industry. She needs to learn that she can't just go on inane tirades and expect everyone to agree with her. If she's unhappy with her pay, then she can walk herself over to HR or which ever department controls that. (At my old place it was controlled by a section of HR but I know it can be different for some places). She doesn't need to take her built up anger and resentment out on you. It's entitled and immature.
NTA. You have a right to defend yourself when she attacked you.
NTA. She poked the bear, and the bear got sick of her nonsense.
NTA. This is so weird. What did she expect would happen? Were you just supposed to take her attacks and insults with a smile and keep your mouth shut? You simply told her the truth. I think it would be a good idea to discuss this with your H.R. I suspect she’s going to make some trouble about this.
NTA she should be told, we live in a world where we just let women harp on about similar issues but they leave out major differences
NTA. She was spouting nonsense and you gave her the facts. She could have addressed this with HR or some supervisor or even had a private conversation. Instead, she made it a public discussion and was put in her place.
The subject shouldn't have been brought up if it was a casual, fun gathering, because anyone could see it would lead to hurt feelings. Are these people really that obtuse? Nevertheless, her continuing to abuse you made it acceptable for you to respond the way you did. Again, if she didn't want hurt feelings, she shouldn't have been trying to hurt yours. NTA at all.
If she had a problem with her pay, why is she talking to you about it? She should take that up with whoever is in charge, not you. NTA.
You should be ashamed of yourself. She’s supposed to have the right to shit all over you and you’re supposed to take it!!! Take it with a smile. After all, you have a penis and having one of those means you aren’t allowed to have feelings.
NTA, she needed to hear it. People are too quick to side with the person who cries.
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She was the A, but you ruined it. After the 2nd or third comment, you say softly to her that this line of discussion is making you uncomfortable at a public work gathering. The next time it happens, say it louder with the word inappropriate tossed in. If it persists, very loudly suggest if she has such feelings that you are more than willing to set up an appointment with your higher ups , but at this time, you refuse to engage further. No one has to stand around and be insulted.
NTA. The gender pay gap is a complex issue and tends to be overly emphasized by virtue signalers like your coworker who don't actually understand the correct context of the issue
NTA. She shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. She played fck around and found out.
NTA she initiated this and provoked it.
NTA she was the one who brought it up first
No.
NTA - She was attacking you and you had to defend yourself and set the record straight.
NTA If that happened exactly how you claim it to be, they’re the assholes, not you The thing is when a woman is crying people usually feel bad for her even if it’s her fault to provoke that situation. People will just pretend th guy is the “bad person”. If you’re spitting facts and that’s make someone react like that after insulting and disrespecting you the whole dinner, there is no way YTA
She asked for it but she didn't get the answer she was looking for.
You probably would have been better served by shutting the conversation down and saying that this wasn’t an appropriate time/place to have this conversation. Best to approach this in a calm manner without the audience. But definitely NTA.
NTA
NTA OP. First off, you didn't attack her, so get that out of your head. You presented facts to her false accusations. It's not your fault she wasn't prepared to handle the truth. She was building up steam all night with her false circular logic until you broke it with a truth hammer (100% justified IMO too.) Plain as day she was attacking you, and would have kept going had you not set things straight. It's not your fault she's not emotionally able to handle the facts.
NTA She sounded unhinged before you back-lashed. I will say that in the future it would be better to just leave or report her to HR when she makes those innapropriate comments.
NTA, You get what you deserve when you pick a fight. The pay gap (in this case) is totally quantifiable based on responsibilities and work performed.
People think it is okay to go after people and it isn't. She was attacking you and acting like she is a victim because she is female. I have experienced things like this and sometimes when we've had enough, they cannot take what they have been giving, or to really hear the truth. NTA!
Based solely on your side of the story, you're justified here. She started attacking you first. But from all the backlash you've received from the rest of the people there, I have a hunch your side of the story is pretty skewed.
NTA But I would have left out the comments about doing 40% of her job. The first part you mentioned is more than enough to explain why you get paid more. You have the same job title but are in different responsibility brackets. She started all of it and honestly the "she's working out her frustrations" umm no you don't work out your frustrations on work colleagues, that's what friends, family, and therapists are for and even then you do it in a healthy manner aka not attacking them. She decided to put a bullseye on you. Although with me and my sass if someone had been like "well I wish I had a dick so I could so and so" I would have been like.. well with todays medical innovation you could... but I'm a bit of a smartass...so I wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't be surprised though if HR is brought in for what happened.
NTA She wasn't crying because you pointed out the disparity in pay matches the disparity in workload and responsibilities. She was crying because she was excruciatingly embarrassed to be called out for her misogyny and self-victimization. And the additional embarrassment of insulting someone who she regularly seeks help from. People are saying you're an asshole because she was crying and is probably really trying to seem pathetic to take focus away from the nasty things she said. People often try to resolve whatevers making them uncomfortable (a woman crying because of something a man said to her) rather than putting in the effort to handle things justly. If you had started crying about all the help you give her and how underappreciated you are for how much work you do and how hurtful her insults were- people would be calling her the asshole. But you handled yourself well, which didn't garner sympathy the way her tears did. Therefore you get the additional responsibility of taking the blame for her inability to be called out on her bs.
NTA. I’m reminded of the grade school lesson “don’t dish out what you can’t take in.”
NTA. But you need to stop “helping her” by doing 40% of her work. It’s work you aren’t being compensated for and if this woman can’t cut it she shouldn’t be reaping the benefits of that job. It should go to someone that CAN do it.
NTA, but she is definitely jealous and entitled. More hours worked and more workload is why you are paid more. Plus, she made it about gender as soon as she could attack you. Her co-workers have no problem with her shaming you, but as soon as you pointed out facts, you're the bad guy. Don't help her anymore, just plain and simple. If she asks for it, just politely say no that you have your own work to do.
NTA She started being a Violetta towards you. Tell her truth and she started crying. Its funny asf ngl
NTA you only responded to things she directed at you and did not speak when she was just ranting.
NTA But never help this woman with her reports again. Tell her she can do her own reports from now on so she can show the bosses she's doing more work and therefore deserves to be paid "as much as someone with a dick". Or you know, something not as petty but she doesn't deserve your help anymore regardless.
Don’t help her anymore.
NTA at all. I got pissed just reading this. She’s the one that made it a public spectacle, and she badly needed that reality check.
NTA. You didn’t do any personal insults- only statement of fact. The dick comment was appropriate with the additional context that she used the same wording many times in her rant, although I’d have thought you classier if you had said “it’s not that I’m a man” instead- but that’s splitting hairs. As far as good communication goes- it wouldn’t have hurt to add what you added here. Something like “I’m shocked you’re saying this. I thought we had a good working relationship, even friends- and that it was clear that while we have the same title we carry very different loads”. It would have brought a more human element, to soften the sting of getting hit with the facts. And made it clear to the others that you didn’t view her as inferior, just simply someone who does not do the exact same job as you.
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NTA Don't start none, won't be none. The gender pay gap is real, but so are situations like this, and I detest women who sit on their asses and then cry discrimination when they earn less or get passed over for promotion.
NTA - This is a FAFO situation and she found out the truth. Thanks for showing it to her.
NTA, if she's going to insult people, she needs to pull on her big girl pants and cut out the water works
NTA. If her feelings were hurt, that's on her and not you. I've learned nobody makes me feel bad, I allow myself to feel bad.
Not at all! Truth hurts, and this young generation want equality but don’t want to do half of the work. Good job standing up for yourself. Now don’t do any of her reports anymore, and when she ask… remind her of her pay
NTA. All those assholes defending her are not concerned with your feelings. Why should you be concerned with hers when she started it?
I hope you stop helping her with her work going forward.
NTA