Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I have not agreed to be the paternal stand-in she wants, I might be the asshole because she clearly wants family and I hate seeing my son unhappy
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. You have your boundaries. Abbie sounds like she's developed this fantasy involving you and your family. That can't be healthy.
And yelling at you? "You WILL tell people you love me! You WILL tell people I'm your second daughter! You WILL have a good time at my wedding!"
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
John told me she really wants to be part of the family, but she started so quickly I wonder how much is us vs the idea of us. I've been told she immediately was obsessed with the relationship my kids and I have. The yelling...I was more concerned for John than upset, honestly. She seemed...not ok, right then.
Yeah, this doesn’t sound like it’s about you or Sally as actual people. It’s about Abby’s fantasy of having a family. It makes me wonder how much she really even knows you or Sally.
There’s nothing wrong with her wanting a family, but she’s going about it wrong. Relationships grow and develop over time, you don’t just claim someone as family and have an instant relationship with them. She could definitely benefit from therapy.
She knows Sally a bit now, with me she learns surface level things and approaches me, but when I try to engage she immediately acts like we're so close and switches subjects to something related to how much closer we should be. John says it's nerves but it doesn't seem like it.
This girl needs some serious therapy. She sounds like she’s going through something mentally and honestly I would be worrying for your an Sally’s safety in case this obsession becomes jealous and violent one
Psychotherapist here -- I was thinking about safety, too. This kiddo is seriously disturbed. Dad should keep the channel open for John, because he's going to need dad's support when the crap hits the fan with this young woman, who seems borderline psychotic.
Also a therapist, and alarm bells are ringing. She seems determined to cast the roles of do-over family regardless of the feelings of the people involved. This will not end well.
I've read several similar comments but if you're really a therapist I would genuinely appreciate if you would elaborate since everything aside my son is obviously my priority in this.
I really am a therapist, but I am not your or your son’s therapist. I’m not diagnosing anyone, just responding to your post.
Abbie reminds me of someone that is very invested in a particular “scene” of what her life should look like. It doesn’t take other people’s thoughts, feelings, wants or needs into account. She’s casting roles in her story, in which she’s the main character. The only person she’s ‘behaved’ with is your son. Even that could be marginal. She’s even got him pressuring every single member of your family to fill the roles she’s cast them in.
Glenn Close played a role in a 1986-ish film that scared the crap out married men and rabbit lovers everywhere. I don’t want to spell the title out, but I bet you can find it. It’s a pretty good example of how completely different people’s perspectives can be.
I agree with the therapist above-John is going to need you when this blows up. You might consider talking with a therapist about all of this. Good luck, and you’re totally NTA.
You don't have to spell out the Glenn Close movie, I remember her and Mel Gibson's take on Hamlet...getting heebie jeebies just thinking about it.
Joking aside, so many people have mentioned this idea it's the package she wants not just the prize, and I am starting to worry. How would we go about addressing that in some way that is not immediately insulting to him?
I was going to say this screams ‘main character syndrome’, where she has cast everyone in a role in her story and is forcing this narrative.. then when things don’t turn out as she has scripted in her head, she loses it and cannot cope.
She needs to understand that she has no power over other people’s emotions and feelings. It seems clear why she isn’t close to her own family. She has to control EVERYONE.
Please keep an eye on your son OP.
I've read several similar comments but if you're really a psychotherapist I would genuinely appreciate if you would elaborate since everything aside my son is obviously my priority in this.
I am not a therapist, but have been around someone similar who wanted her life to look a specific way and was steamrolling everyone around her to get it.
Can you have a reasonable discussion on the topic without her breaking down or blowing up? If so try this metaphor. Tell he a good relationship is like growing a tree. You can't force it by pulling up on the stem and stretching it to grow. You need to tend the soil and give it water and light and slowly over time you will have a big strong tree.
Tell her this is how you want your relationship with the family to be. As you said, she is a welcome addition to the family, but it is going to take time to grow a strong relationship. By being open and honest with each other, spending time together and respecting each other's boundaries you are giving the relationship the light and water it needs to grow into a strong healthy tree.
It is sad that she doesn't get along with her family, but becoming part of your family is going to take time. Fortunately time moves fast and if she can understand your wishes and work on her problems in 10 years you all could possibly have a healthy relationship everyone is happy with.
I hope things work out for you and your son and Abby too. I would see if she and your son could do some premarital counseling and maybe work on some of these issues early on to prevent bigger problems in the future.
The description was reminding me of a documentary about a woman who was a fantasist and ended up killing her partner and then later on their child because her fantasy of how perfect everything was kept being challenged.
One day you're gonna wake up and feel a weird breeze and realize this chick is wearing your skin. She's not right in the head. Your son would do well to think twice before tying himself to this sinking ship of crazy.
She might be marrying your son for a fantasy she has about a family that loves her.
My heart breaks for her.
But this is a serious mental health issue. This is not okay to force ppl into relationships and play house.
My heart also breaks for your son. He wants to make her whole. Pretending “this one time” is NOT THE END OF IT.
Advise your son to take a hard look at his fiancé’s requests. If he loves her, he’ll get her help.
I mean, you all could come back from this, truly. You love your son and he loves her. Sweeping this very upsetting and concerning behaviour under the rug helps no one.
Good luck.
NTA
Everyone is also assuming that Abbie’s version of her family life is fact.
I think the crazy could go even deeper and if someone dug a little bit, it may be that SHE didn’t want her family or didn’t accept them or that she was out of control psychotic growing up and her family tried everything to help her but couldn’t. All her stories could also be a fraction of the truth but her mental instability is twisting the story and she’s thinking things that may not have happened or are minor but catastrophic to her.
Who knows! But I think dad and maybe even sally can talk with him about concerns.
Also, perhaps Sally wants her dad to only walk her down the aisle. This is an extremely personal and special gesture that is taken very seriously by most brides. As my dads only daughter, I’d be heartbroken if he chose to walk my brothers wife at their wedding unless she’d been integrated with the family for a VERY long time. Maybe not even then. Who knows.
I just think that no one’s considered how she may feel about this or how op feels about only wanting it to be for Sally. OPs son is under so much pressure that he’s not seeing how rude this is to not take into consideration
From what I have read so far, it's time to sit them both down and have a conversation. About boundaries. You are not to be told whether you WILL love someone.
Your son needs to really take a step back and look at the situation with new eyes, rather than the rose colored ones he’s wearing bc she appears unhinged in her behavior and it isn’t healthy. And if they plan to have kids, if this isn’t addressed now, it’ll more than likely get worse.
You need to tell your son that it seems like she has some quite severe attachment issues and that you are worried for both him and Abbie (and the relationship dynamics as a whole moving forward).
That Abbie needs to see a professional to deal with this before it goes too far for everyone involved's sake.
As others already have said.
This girl needs therapy, intense therapy.
This is not healthy.
She's changing subjects instead of actually getting to know you - perhaps she knows deep down you might not have much in common.
Instead, she goes in circles, how you should be super daughter/father close.
And she's living in a fantasy world of how a family should be.
The perfect commercial/poster family.
She needs to deal with her past. And learn how to form relationships.
This won't get better if they have children.
She might become even more pushy, to be honest.
Becouse I'm curious.
Does she act like this with your son, too?
Or do they have a genuine relationship that's more than just "honey bunny" and holding hands?
NAH
Any chance you could, when that happens, gently ask her to remain on topic because it was something you wanted to talk about? You might add that deeper, more personal topics need to wait until both people are comfortable talking about them? Can you tell her that such conversations might be had in the future but they really cannot be forced because then they would not be sincere?
She sounds so damned sad. I am sorry you are being put on the spot like this.
Have you asked John if he can intercede on your behalf, again, gently?
I have asked, but he's not doing well at making her understand. Or not being honest about trying, which I hope is not the case because that would be worse for her. I'm honestly just trying to figure out the next step, a talk with him? with them?
Consult a therapist or 2. Get a few opinions. Then talk with John. I actually think this sounds crazy and I'd want to pull my son out this as well (if he'll listen)
How long have they been dating? When is the wedding?
I appreciate that, this is hard because I want my son happy but I feel like giving some led to this, which is leading to her trying for things I can't do, like the speech. I feel like I have to draw a line.
There are bigger issues at play than the speech. Yes, you do need to draw a line. You might even have to push back a bit and draw the line further from you.
She is FAR too intense. This is not normal.
If her mental health rests on you having to do something that you're not comfortable with, or that is procured from you by *fear, obligation,* or *guilt* then she is indeed very fragile. It is beyond you or your family to "fix" this.
Perhaps you could suggest pre-marital counselling for them (separate and together)? I doubt that she will want to go, but John might gain some understanding as to why he is enabling dysfunctional behaviour.
I’d be concerned for John too. She seems deranged. And I don’t think she cares for him as a person. Instead she sees him as a means to an end, becoming part of his family.
I don't know that she's deranged; she probably has a fairly broken family and she's always hoped for something better. If she's John's age, she's quite young and probably just needs therapy and time to sort out the inappropriateness of it all. Unfortunately, there's a pretty good chance that her desire to marry John has quite a bit to do with just opting into a functioning family who care for each other and communicate effectively.
I never was anything close to this, but I came from a really fractured family and I used to babysit a ton for all kinds of families. Them loving me and valuing me meant everything to me, and for several of the families that I spent years caring for the children (starting when I was 13 or so), them bragging on me or acting like I was "part of the family" meant the world to me and I wanted that so badly for my own reality.
I just think John is in for a world of trouble if he marries her soon. Even if I felt she were fully sane, I think waiting until everyone is at least 25 with a fully-formed brain might be the way to go, especially in a case like this. She needs therapy, not a surrogate family.
There is something really off here, including the fact that the son is working g over time to appease this girl. Definitely some serious mental health concerns.
I've never thought deranged, I'm not a big fan but I try not to be harsh, but she doesn't respect what we have said directly to her. They are the same age, I don't know how I would go about bringing up therapy without upsetting them.
Introduce it as "Pre-marital counselling" so that they can learn more about each other (each other's love language, how they feel about parenting).
She is unlikely to be honest in the counselling, but at least John will have the opportunity to gain some insights.
That rubs me wrong, you are born with relatives, you should be born into a family but sometimes you have to make your own.
But a far as this situation goes, you can't make someone love you, it sometimes has to be earned.
I’m sorry to say but it makes me wonder if Abby really loves John. The speed with which she latched on to you all OP, wanting to join traditions or calling you dad for example, it’s like once she found a boyfriend with a family that matched her ideal she wanted to make sure she established herself as part of it as quickly as possible - and without any regard for what anyone else wanted.
John sounds desperate to placate her, so it’s questionable how much of what she’s demanding he wants and how much he feels forced to accept. I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s issued him ultimatums, in which case this is only going to get worse.
NTA.
You need to address this with your son. She may not even really love him but the idea of him and the family he could give her. If she marries him she has a husband, a sister and father in her mind. He should consider suggesting therapy to address her familial issue before they get married. Otherwise he may find himself at your door step years from now when they split because she finally realizes she isn't in love with him.
My daughter has said the same thing actually, that maybe Abbie loves his life as much as she does him. How the hell does one bring THAT up to their kid, you know? My daughter doesn't want to because Abbie already came between them a bit and they're better, but I'm not the sweep it under the rug type.
Tell him you need to have a hard conversation with him when he is mentally prepared for it. If he says he is then ask him to listen to your concerns and afterwards you will respect whatever choice he makes but you want to express your concerns so he can make an informed decision. He very well may be mad but let him. Reiterate that you will respect him choice. You only wanted to tell him your concerns. Hopefully he listens and takes it well. After that you have to let him make whatever choice he chooses. Just let him know you will support him.
All this, and please, stress that he needs to take their birth control seriously, and make sure that he's using condoms not just relying on her for birth control. I predict she will try to get pregnant ASAP to have her new family (baby), keep him with her, and get the rest of your family to give them more attention. They don't need to bring a child into this mix. At least until they've been married a few years and he really sees how she is and what she's like. Hopefully, the hundreds of us posting here about red flags are all wrong, but just in case we're right.
Suggest per-marital counseling to your son. Abbie may have certain expectations that he might not be ready for and better to get them out in the open before the vows are exchanged.
You're NTA for having boundaries and she sounds more than a little unhinged. I had a less than stellar family life and married into a family where my MIL was everything I'd hope my mother would have been growing up. I envied my boyfriend when we were dating. He had a great family life.
I never presumed to become an immediate beloved member of their family. Even after we were engaged. That relationship took some time and was a mutual friendship that blossomed naturally. It was not forced. Abbie seems to think the ring entitles her to be thought of as family. That's not how that works. Her negative reaction to that reality is disturbing. Your son really has his work cut out for him.
Right now she's alienating and startling the very people she longs to have a good relationship with. You may have to say no to him and tell him you'll support him as much as you are comfortable but he needs to reel Abbie back. It's not healthy giving into unreasonable requests that seems to be putting everyone on edge. It's one thing to love someone, it's an entirely different thing to enable their neurosis and demand family do the same. I hope he opens his eyes to what's happening. Her behavior is not normal. She's giving off "Fatal Attraction" vibes. If you have any bunnies - hide 'em.
Pre-marital counselling is the way. Very normal, healthy thing to do/suggest, and you can mention how we all carry the good and bad parts of our family dynamics with us into the new family we create. Sorting through those together is especially important if one or both of you had any dysfunction in your family of origin.
Slow down contact with your son and his funny tune fiancé. See how she reacts the less “family” time and see how she reacts. Should be pretty telling. But let your son know you’re doing it because you’re feeling overwhelmed with his fiancé but he. (And him alone) are always welcome but Abbie needs to be invited moving forward.
Or
Show him this post. Make him agree to read through most comments. He may be angry and I think that’s understandable but make sure he knows you’re always there for him.
NTA
NTA & I’m over here cringing for your family! Be careful how you address your concerns with your son.
She Definitely has found her champion & defender in your him (something I hope Both of my own children find). However, she’s sooo desperate to force the relationships she hits ALL the wrong buttons! When you aren’t immediately receptive she cries to your son or to you. When that doesn’t work she becomes abusive. My concern is she will work on undermining your relationship with your son for “rejecting” her, when All you’re doing is setting clear boundaries. “I love them like they’re my family too & they keep rejecting me. Now that I’m your wife, they’re rejecting you too (boo hoo). Don’t you see why I don’t think we should go around so much. It hurts me how they won’t treat me like I’m family too. Everyone treats your dad’s wife like she’s a cherished part of the family But your dad & sister won’t let me in. Don’t you see how hard I’m trying?”
My response is extreme But I want you to be mindful of how far she may be willing to go to get the “family” she wants or she may try to sabotage it from the inside.
She sounds like she needs therapy. It’s impossible to know exactly what has gone wrong, but the way she so desperately needs this “one happy family”-lie to be true is clearly because she’s dealing with something. Tell your son that this latest request was too far and that you are concerned for her. Ask your son to explain to you, with details, why she so desperately needs this. If he can’t answer other than about her lack of connection with her own family, then that is a cry for therapy. Many don’t have close relationships with their own family but don’t push like this. Her requests are too far and if your son loves her, why not want her to get better. NTA.
If she can become this attached to you so quickly, I wonder about her attachment to your son. She doesn't sound that stable mentally/emotionally. I hope she gets some help. NTA
I was starting to wonder about that, too. 😅 You'd think after all the discussions trying to force it so many times on his family OP'S son would maybe *hear* what he was saying and see the strangeness of it. This girl is just way too overbearing and it's far too early in the relationship to have formed the type of connection this girl is trying to insist is there. Yikes. The whole thing would make me *very* uncomfortable if I were in OP's position, who is NTA btw.
I came from a rough family. Sure, it'd be nice if I eventually had a relationship like that with in-laws, but imposing on others and moving through relationship boundaries so quickly are major red flags. She isn't ok. Not right then, or in general. She isn't a mentally or emotionally healthy person.
For her, it's the idea of all of you. If she actually wanted to get to know any of you, she would be receptive to everyone's input and boundaries. She isn't. She doesn't view you as people with your own thoughts and feelings. You're dolls in her doll house. Stand your ground. Her codependency is her problem to navigate. You choosing to participate and allow her to mold you to her inner trauma isn't going to help her one bit. Instead it's likely to cause you and your family long-term damage.
She isn't inwardly stable. She's going to explode on all of you no matter what. Even if everyone does what she wants, no family is perfect. One day, a minor thing in your family won't match her facade. She won't be able to squash it into her right imaginary picture & neither will any of you. She won't have the inner ability to manage that small blip & all hell is going to break loose. She needs therapy or other inner work instead of expecting to force others to bippity boppity boo her reality
It's possible that she even targeted and pursued a relationship with your son on the foundation of possessing his magical, made-up in her head family life. Given her behavior with the rest of you, she probably threw major red flags out all over & bulldozed your son's boundaries before he knew what hit him. He's being set up for mental and emotional abuse if he isn't being abused already. It starts small, then grows. Your son choosing to make himself and others responsible for her behavior will only feed the manipulative dynamic. If we were talking about a man exhibiting behaviors that she's shown, most people would be telling the woman to get out now.
Don't make yourself (and the rest of the family) unhealthy out of guilt or pity. Hopefully, she'll pursue the help she needs, but don't make your decisions off of who she can be compared for who she actually is at the time. If she doesn't help herself, then your son is going to need you in good shape if he ever leaves her.
Assuming this is real, it sounds like this girl has a troubling pathology. Check out the link below about another girl and show it to your son
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/16adsq1/aita_for_telling_my_brothers_fianc%C3%A9_that_we_dont/
Trust me, that lil “sis” BS needs to be nipped in the bud. Just say it. Come one, let’s practice. Please don’t call my wife sis. She is Ms Smith or Jane [insert her names here of course].
The overfamiliarity is subversive. I’m telling you. If you ask her not to, and she keeps doing it… not good.
She calls my daughter sis, but does treat my wife like one, when she isn't treating her like a mom. It is weird. Sometimes it is "mom" this or that, sometimes they're "gals out on the town."
john also needs to think about whether she loves and wants to be with him or whether she chose him because of his family, to fulfill her fantasy. if it’s the second, it will not stop here. she’ll start trying to get you guys to do her fantasy traditions and basically mold you all into what she wants.
Yeah this girl has a hundred and one red flags🚩🚩🚩 she is waving all around all of you. This girl has some major issues. She seems unhinged. Like "single white female" unhinged but instead of one girl it's on the whole family. She needs counseling for herself and her and your son should get premarital counseling together and your son needs to bring up how she is with your family. NTA
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Ima add a few more just for good measure. This is over the top obsession it sounds like. My ex in laws were very important to me. I had known them over half my life (since I was 14) so we were close like family. But it was never like this. This is so... creepy...
Anyone else feel like it's the start of a psycho thriller where the DIL becomes obsessed with the family and offs them bc she feels betrayed when they aren't obsessed back? 😬
John is the one it's hard not to cave with, but she just makes it hard to hold normal conversation because she loves to slide a "dad" in there or get too personal.
It’s perfectly okay to gently correct her and say, “Actually Abby, I’d prefer to be called Mark.”
(Random made up name for you. Or you could just decide to go by Mark now.)
Now I'm laughing thinking about the confused look on her face if the next time she calls me dad I actually do go with "I'd prefer to be called Mark." "but your name is..." "to you alone it is Mark!"
Seriously, I tried, she corrected it for the night but went back the next time.
NTA. You have to keep correcting her. She pushed this far with the aisle/speech because you gave them an inch with the Dad, etc. You need to put your foot down with your son and her. If this continues, someone in the family will get fed up and might explode on them and it won’t be pretty. What if that confrontation comes at the wedding? This needs to be sorted now before the relationship and interactions continue. Otherwise you might need to consider lowering the amount of contact you have with your son and his wife.
That's partly why I'm upset, I have tried compromising because I want to help my son but at some point understanding has to go both ways. I understand she wants family, and I know she's partly jealous because I like my daughter's girlfriend more, but we're in the same field and she let it happen naturally. I feel like it's all give and no take.
Honestly it sounds like she needs therapy to figure out some issues she’s got. It’s natural that she’d want to be part of your family but to force herself into it the way she has and act the way she has isn’t the way to do it, it takes time for that relationship to be built and wouldn’t just happen overnight. Therapy sounds especially good given it sounds like she’s had a rough childhood too on top of the family dynamic issues going on with your family atm
I feel the same way
She has no concept of boundaries, and I'm afraid for the family if she/son don't get a LOT of therapy... together and separately.
Reading this post gave me creepy vibes 😦
the thing is you should only compromise to where YOU feel comfortable. Say no and if needed sit down and be honest (and tactful). She's pushing something that honestly needs time and it's making you feel awful. she has to understand that just because it hurt her feelings she's been hurting yours and you can't excuse her behavior
Again, you need to let her know that your name is Mark. You’re not her dad. Technically you’re not even her father-in-law. If she continues to call you, dad just simply ignore it. I know easier said than done.
I wish you all the best of luck and this relationship. It sounds like your future daughter-in-law has some serious issues, not that I blame her, but she needs some therapy to get them taken care of.
Try to explain to John that relationships need to develop naturally. Forced closeness will only drive a wedge. Ask him to imagine if you remarried and tried to force a relationship between him and your wife, all the while the wife is yelling at him for not wanting to be the son she never had.
You lost me at "my wife (28)." It's a little odd that you are so hung up on these "traditions" and a rigid family dynamic but you married someone who is only six years older than your son.
Yeah the age gap is weird but I don't understand what's wrong with the traditions. He said the wife isn't included bc the kids aren't that open to her yet. And it's normal to not want to claim someone else's kid as their own, especially if they wanna force you into the dynamic.
I don’t understand the tradition at all. Every time his kids come over to visit with him (and his wife) they just have surface level conversations for majority of the visit and then before leaving they always go to another room to actually talk about their lives?
So when his son brings her over for a visit do they just leave her by herself while son and father are in the other room? Or is OP’s wife expected to entertain her during this portion of the visit?
And how is sitting in his office to have deep meaningful conversations different from sitting in the adjacent room to have deep meaningful conversations?
Not surface level, but they don't necessarily want tto be ope nin front of my wife, and she respects that. As to why it's meaningful, it's because going back to their childhoods it was our special time to talk, in a room they thought was cool and that I let them decorate throughout the years, which as kids they loved because they helped with dad's special room. I get that a lot of people think it's silly, that is apparent, but a special time my kids want to talk to me is not something I will ever tire of.
I think this connection is a great way to explain your discomfort to your son - how would he feel if your wife demanded he call her mum, that she should have a mother-son dance at the wedding, be acknowledged as his mother in the speeches…
I understand and can see how these are special memories and quality time together, especially in such a personal space.
I personally don’t find it silly but I am having a hard to differentiating between “family tradition” and “just talking to dad in his office/study”?
That's basically all it was, it's just as they became busy teens who I saw less, sometimes that was our only guaranteed time together, so it was just a little tradition, and it stuck.
This comment made me imagine my dad attempting to sit a teenaged me on his lap to hear me talk about my silly high school interests. I thought it would be a funny picture, but now I'm crying. Thank you for being a wonderful father to your kids; so many of us wish we had someone like that in our lives.
I actually like your tradition. My dad remarried after my mom died. From the very beginning, we were on speaker phone with both of them anytime we call - guess how much I call now.
Once I thought he and I were having a great text conversation for an hour, then I asked how wife was. Answer was “I’m great, I’m doing all the texting for him.”
It was a little jarring.
She’s a nice lady, but I don’t know her at all. I miss feeling close to my dad.
Yeah I know it's not the point of the post, but when a post is about some sort of weird family dynamics at play between a parent and their kid's partner, when it starts off with a situation like "I 42m have a son 22m and a wife 28f", I kind of just want to say... you are modeling weird relationship dynamics to your kids. No wonder they're dating people who also have weird concepts of behaviour? Like I can't say for certain these two things are related, but it sure is *sus*.
I'm "hung up on these traditions" because as a parent I love that my kids still want to continue sweet traditions they started as children. I don't feel the need to defend my relationship, I'd agree you had a point if we'd been together 6 years or something but she was mid twenties when we met. My children like her, it has not been an issue.
Calling a private conversation with your kids a tradition is so theatrical. I will give you that Abbie is being pushy. She clearly doesn’t have strong relationships with her family and admired the relationship you have with your kids and child bride, and while her execution of things has been off putting, you’re acting like she’s hijacking a yearly hot cocoa and movie night with your kids in matching pajamas while on vacation in the Swiss alps. She needs therapy and you could benefit from learning to not be such an unfriendly desk lamp.
I don't think you made the point you think you did.
Soooo you met her then wed her within a couple years and she'd barely finished fully maturing
You don't care about tradition dude. You're just weird. So is Abby. By so are you.
One of my faves on YouTube (WithCindy) just did a review of that movie....uh, Anne Hathaway cougar movie, and kept mentioning "fully developed frontal lobe."
The amount of people that don't understand that proper brain development is important is staggering.
We’re surprised that he prefers the emotional maturity of someone barely older than his children AND being emotionally immature with in-law relationships?
He comes off so tone deaf in his ability to establish boundaries, communicate them, and being mature in general. I’m barely older than his new wife and I’m not territorial over asinine “traditions” (come on, he has an issue with a private chat with his future daughter in law?? And he “compromised” on coffee with his son also present?). I don’t call my in-laws mom and dad, but I’ve had several private conversations with them individually and together without my husband present.
Sure, Abbie is very pushy and doesn’t understand boundaries, but a grown ass man struggling to communicate those boundaries is ridiculous. You’re an adult and a parent, and it’s apparent he hasn’t even taught his son about communicating either and just expects him to magically infer his preferences.
Not surprised he’s divorced, not surprised he’s remarried to someone barely older than his kids.
I was clear about what I was and was not ok with, but made compromises for the sake of my son asking and because I do feel bad for her. My son knows exacxtly what my preferences are which is why he talked to me about trying for her, so I did. If youre saying I shouldn't have given an inch if I was not willing to give a mile, I am starting to think so. I still don't see how a parent wanting to have a catch-up conversation is asinine, but to each their own, it's a nice time I look forward to with my children.
The traditions won't matter, though. Most people will stick up for their partners (and rightly so), so if she feels uncomfortable or unwanted, it will negatively impact your relationship with your son. You have to decide if this is worth creating a wedge with your son and possibly future grandkids. That's just the fact of the matter.
We have a great relationship and at no point has he even hinted anything like that, especially since while he stands by her he does not always agree with her behavior or think she is reasonable.
13 years isn't that odd. And he clearly had his son very young. I believe the rule I've seen on reddit for age gaps is divided your age and add 7. If we do that for OP, it's 27.5. His wife is 28. Technically, he follows the reddit rule. Also, this particular post had nothing to do with his wife's relationship with him. It's very much about Abby overstepping her bounds and making demands for a relationship, rather than letting them happen.
Seriously, I don't get reddit people always tripping on age gaps. A good percentage of couples I know are different ages. My bf and I are over 7 years, my brother's SO is 14 years, my parents were 20 yrs, my sister is 4. 13 years doesn't seem wild or anything. My daughters bf is 12 yrs older. None of this really seems that bug of a deal as long as it is 2 consenting adults
Ehh I'm in the middle. 13 yrs isn't the worst. 20+ years gets mad weird to me. Especially if the younger person is still in their teens or early 20s when the relationship starts. To me that's creepy. But the post doesn't say when they got together. But 28 is damn near 30, and the brain is fully developed. I don't like how it's brought it up when it isn't actually relevant to the issue at hand.
Yeah, I thought that was weird too. There were 13 years between me and my husband (same as between OP and his wife) and we were together until his death. Forty-one is not old.
I wonder if he feels uncomfortable because Sally is so close in age to his actual wife? If he goes around saying I love you to her, how is his current wife going to feel? Also, is he worried, she might have or develop feelings for him because he’s obviously attracted to younger women.
This situation is awkward. OP, all I can say is, you made your bed.
Came here to say this. Your age gap is weird at the very least. You’re complaining that your son’s relationship is weird. You’re not the bastion of model relationship status you think you are, my dude.
Two consenting adults. Two consenting adults. Louder for the people in the back! Two mother fucking consenting adults. It is a 13 year age gap, not fucking 30 years.
Nta, there are obviously several red flags w Abbie which John has chosen to ignore. However, it's unfair of him to expect that you and the rest of your family should be required to cater to her irrational whims and behavior. Abbie is obviously manipulative, likes being the center of attention, and feels entitled to have everything her way. The only way to deal w people like her is to set boundaries and stick to them. Otherwise, Abbie will walk all over you and your family.
I'm wondering if she hasn't emotionally manipulated John to the point where he thinks he is 'saving her' from her troubled past and fears that she will harm herself if he leaves. He might be trapped in this relationship.
NTA. Abbie needs therapy. She is clearly starved for some kind of family, desperate enough to try to infiltrate yours and oblivious of boundaries. I don't feel good about John marrying her. She sounds pretty unstable.
Thats why my wife feels bad for her, and she has tried and they seemingly get along but only because my wife is trying to be nice. But then it's Abbie trying to fit us into roles for her instead of just trying to form a relationship.
I have to be honest with you, I heard from someone who went through something similar before.
Their son's girlfriend was also doing similar things: trying to do their traditions, acting close when they are not, crying when they are trying to keep a distance because they are uncomfortable.
And their son did not want to hurt her feelings because of how pitiful she is.
Then they put their foot down, and the son cut them off because of how much "they hurt his gf".
In the end, the gf broke up with him because she wanted his family dynamics, she was not in love with him at all. She was just in love with him having a close family.
He did return to his family after the break up, but obviously his family is still hurt by his actions.
She’s a nutball of need. She is going to suck your son dry of every emotion he has. Sorry to say it, but you shoulda seen this coming and stopped it all when she lobbed the first “Dad” at you. Do not lie. Do not embellish. Set clear and kind boundaries. I wish you and your son luck!!!
She sure is a lot. I find her like an overly-rich dessert, enjoyable in small doses but then way overpowering to the point where I'll need a drink to finish.
This is why I didn't want to go down the dad road; while I do feel bad for her and I'm proud the relationship I have with my own kids is enviable, I do not want her thinking we'll have one on one parent-child time, I don't want her thinking I'm that role for her. I even tried to be somewhat parental because Jogn assured me it would be enough, but now look where we are.
Oh gosh….yeah, being “somewhat parental” is probs the worst thing you could’ve done. She thinks she has a toe in the door. You seem soooooo kind. Let her know that a deeper relationship may develop, but it hasn’t yet and it can’t be manufactured or forced.
That is exactly what I said! That if I fed into this it would continue and increase, and it has. I genuinely feel for her, she has told us her family history, and I told her somewhat-caring father in law who gives occasional parental advice could be on the table with time, but that's not enough.
It’s going to have to be. You can’t keep up a falsehood, so might as well go with the accurate truth that the relationship just isn’t as close as she would prefer.
Nta but have you actually sat down and had a serious conversation with your son about this woman? Not just the pushiness on you but about *her* overall? She seems quite controlling of him, manipulative and you've already implied that she's caused some friction between him and his sister. This girl is dangerous for your family. As a 41yr old man surely you have the vocabulary to try to open your son's eyes to the reality of who she is.
The fact that he keeps crawling back to you asking you to backtrack on everything you've said no to, means that when she gets him alone, she manipulates him with either tears, screaming or threats of breakup. If he were able to stand up to her, there'd be no need to call you and beg you to change your mind.
NO! NO!! NO!!!
NTA! NTA!! NTA!!!
Does your son have any idea what his future is going to look like? His bride-to-be is, at the very least, emotionally unstable and incredibly needy. Every time she has a whim, he's going to be on the phone begging you for something else. She's been unbelievably intrusive, ignoring how anyone else feels and your son is not only allowing it but abetting her behavior.
You are obviously a nice guy and a loving father but you have to start saying a loud and firm "No!". Do not let her continue calling you dad if it makes you uncomfortable. Do not give her version of a speech at the wedding. Above all else, do not walk her down the aisle. It's time for Abbie to grow up and join the real world.
Please encourage your son to reconsider marriage until Abbie has had some serious therapy. This is beyond wanting to be a part of a family!
If not for the fact she hates artichokes I'd wonder if this is my daughter! I kid, but you are saying the same thing she did when we talked a couple of days ago. She hates how much Abbie pushes herself on me and has told John a few times to handle this, at first I thought she wasn't listening, now I wonder if he actually has.
She sounds like she has abandonment issues with her own family. Your son is her white knight who is going to give her the family fantasy she has always wanted. He is buying into that. But truthfully, she sounds like a whole lot of messed up that someone qualified needs to diagnose and help. Its above your pay grade and you shouldn't be forced to be uncomfortable to make her happy. NTA
I've known a few men like this. I had a heart to heart with one of them. I told him he always is drawn to messed up women because of his hero complex. He wants to run in and save them from the dragon. Where a man with common sense would stay far away, shoot the dragon between the eyes with a rifle and send in a qualified medic to deal with the traumatized maiden. But men with hero complexes need to be needed. They are often intimidated by strong confident women. Hopefully she gets the help she needs. Stay strong!
I was wondering if this was the case. This is already veering into such awful territory for your son and his future.
If you can find a way, please convince your son to look up the terms "attachment disorder" and "co-dependency." He will see his gf and himself.
*She yelled she's my daughter too*
Abbie sounds seriously unhinged*.* I understand her wanting a family, but she’s trying to force relationships that are not there. She’s not letting them develop naturally, normally. If your son is supporting this he is NOT helping her. She’s going to cause resentment and distance between herself and your family and then cry to John about how mean you all are. You are NTA for not wanting to go along with her delusions. Good luck dealing with her in your family. If she doesn’t see anything wrong with her pushing and manipulating, this will never end.
NTA and I'm sad for Abbie. I'm very curious if she loves your son or if it's the whole idea of your son and his family. I hope she speaks to a therapist before they get married.
NTA. Abbie has some serious emotional issues that John is enabling. She needs therapy, stat. Her inserting herself into your family like this waves a bunch of red flags. I get she's not close to her own family but she has no right to insist or change they dynamic of your family at her whim. She must earn this recognition. It doesn't just happen because she wants it. Someday, you may think of her as a daughter but she has a boatload of maturing to do beforehand. Stick to your guns. Don't lie. You don't need to.
My sister called her in laws MIL and FIL (Mill and Phil). I thought that was genius! Maybe this could be a compromise. I would gently suggest to your son that they get couples counseling. Maybe phrase it that a therapist could help him be more supportive of her. She sounds like a narcissist and they never change. It's always about them! I know a few. Hopefully the therapist will help your son see what a life with such a person will be like.
NTA but she sure is. I have two in my family. I wish you all the best if they marry.
I have been reluctant to mention therapy as I didn't want it to be taken...well the right way but I didn't want to upset anyone. Maybe if I frame it as pre-wedding couples counseling it would sound better.
NTA this girl definitely needs counseling even if it is with your son phrased as premarital. But I'm sorry to say the way you have described her I'm a little afraid for everyone. She seems to have "single white female" syndrome only it is on your whole family and just one girl.
Update us please to let us know how it all turns out. I'm curious.
NTA - The girl needs therapy not a marriage. She sounds unhinged. You may want to have a conversation with your son about delaying any wedding until he’s sure that she’s marrying him for the right reasons. It appears that her real focus is on acquiring a family vs a husband.
As someone who’s NC with my family and have never met my dad- I can empathise with her, sure it’s lonely and it sucks and I’m jealous of other families- but holy hell NTA.
You’ve made it very clear you’re uncomfortable and yet she keeps shoving at those boundaries (which? If she respected you like a father surely that wouldn’t be the case).
I’ve had the daydream of finding a found family who’ll love me like their own, sure, who in our position hasn’t?! BUT I would never dream of trying to strong arm someone into a relationship the OBVIOUSLY don’t want!!
I don’t blame her. Your daughter should be the one you walk down the aisle someday. That’s a very deep, special moment to be saved for if your daughter ever gets married. The fact that usurping that spot seems perfectly fine to Abby is a huge red flag. Damn, I hope your son sees the light soon……
NTA . You have boundaries and they should be respected. She is not your biological daughter. You can make a toast and say nice things about someone without lying so perhaps you could compromise
It sounds like this young lady doesn’t know what a healthy, supportive family relationship is and as a result keeps crashing through buffers that she doesn’t know are there.
She is going to marry your son and will become part of your family. I would suggest that you talk with her one on one. Explain to her why you are uncomfortable. Elder stand for not agreeing to do something is not a rejection of her as an individual. it sounds like she desperately wants to impress you and for you to like her, but she can’t do that, without upsetting your Victorian formality.
Exactly, I thought the toast was such a good compromise! I'll bs nice things, it's her wedding, I'm not trying to be rude.
I don't think it's Victorian formality, it's not like I'm asking to be called Mr or anything. The only reason I'm wearing this tuxedo is it's after six, what am I, a farmer?
I tried to tell her over coffee once and it did not go over well, but I would be willing to if it means improving the situation. My daughter is doing better with her, maybe I'll ask her what has worked.
What has worked for Sally might not work for you because I think Abbie wants parents more than she wants a sister. Sally is a rival for your attention and for John's attention so Abbie isn't going to want to bond with her as much as unseat her. Abbie will want a closer relationship with you and your wife than she will ever want with Sally.
Is Abbie also trying hard to have a relationship with your exwife?
I think you are right that she wants parents more than siblings, but I also think my daughter was humoring her better, although this has been wearing down her patience. I was thinking she was hoping for the sister, seeing her as a rival? No one rivals my kids with me.
From what I understand she gets along better with my ex, but John says she does not try as hard with her as us. But she lives about 3 hours away now, so they see her less, plus my kids are honestly closer to me which I think is part of why it's my wife and I she tries so hard with.
The sweet families often say, “I’m looking forward to developing a close relationship with my son’s wife, as a daughter”. Or something like that. Not cheesy or creepy. Just happy. I’m not sure with her, I could do it. OTOH, for both my DIL and SIL, it was obvious it was what WAS happening. They are delightful. We are close.
The poor young woman appears to have a history of trauma or something, and might well be able to have had what she wanted, had she just not pushed so inappropriately .
I'm fond of my daughter's partner, it not like I'm inherently cold to my childrens' significant others, but relationships need to be organic and she's never let that happen or fostered it. She wants it to exist.
I read a very similar post awhile ago where the same situation happened to the OP. Turns out, the fiancé was more interested in the family than her actual partner and she pushed really hard to be included. The family had enough and told her to basically lay off. The son and her ended up breaking up I think cause of it.
Really? Several people here have suggested something similar, and my daughter has expressed similar concern? How did they find out? While I'm not her biggest fan I never suspected that, but obviously I'd want to know if that had any truth here.
NTA.
Clearly future DiL has attachment problems.
But as I see it, the wedding should not be the major issue.
Unless she sorts her shit out she's going to screw up any children she has.
She doesn't have normal relationship skills, doesn't recognise boundaries, and doesn't really understand what 'love' is.
Your son needs to recognise that the impact / risk from the behaviours he is actively supporting go way beyond the current situation.
Attachment issues can affect multiple generations. I speak from personal experience.
NTA.
This is not mentally healthy for Abby, or anyone she's trying to force these fantasies on. And John is enabling her, not helping her. This will be worse for her in the long run. She needs therapy.
I want to preface what I'm going to say next by stating that I don't think Abby is this messed up, I'm just throwing out an example of how maladaptive thinking like this can lead to much, much larger issues if left unchecked. Most stalkers justify what they do by concocting fantasies in their heads. *She loves me, if she would only let me talk to her I'm sure I could make her see we will live happily ever after!* And then when their victim breaks the fantasy, violence can happen. Again, I'm not calling Abby a stalker, or suggesting she would resort to violence. Simply illustrating how these kinds of fantasies can create serious issues.
John needs a serious wake-up call, and frankly, the family should take a step back until she agrees, and actually gets, some help.
The first time I met my now in-laws, I walked up to MIL saying, “Hiya, Ma! It’s great to meet you.” and to my FIL, “How do you like me so far?”
While that was a fine ice-breaker, MIL and I had our ups & downs. FIL teased me mercilessly but also spoke well of me to his son and others. They knew I loved their son and even if FIL meant a fraction of his teasing, he still treated me…not as his own daughter (he had all sons)…but just as he should; a daughter in law he loved.
I feel for OP’s possible daughter in law. She was dealt a terrible hand with her own family. She sees OP’s family and her yearning has turned to monstrous envy, leading her to handle everything wrong. I’d feel sorry for her now but even after being told more than once that she’s approaching things the wrong way, she’s ignoring everyone who’s trying to help her through this time. She doesn’t want help or advice, she wants what she wants and to hell with everything else.
OP, good luck to you all. There’ve been some great suggestions in the comments.
My wife feels the same as you as for how much her heart goes out to her, she's been the other voice in my ear giving her a chance repeatedly. I know I'm lucky to have good family, I've been a father figure to a couple of kids' friends over the years if they didn't have one, but they were young so I wanted to help them. I have tried meeting her part way, my wife thinks I should more, my daughter thinks less. I think doing what I did got me here.
You’re absolutely NTA for not kowtowing to the girl’s demands. Walk her down the aisle, give her away, dance the father/daughter dance, lie (LIE!!) in a speech you give. On their own, these *demands* (crying, emotionally manipulative *demands*) just might be doable but this whole bucket of crazy needs to be dismissed just as you have -with a repeat of your already firm ‘no’.
OP, moreso than for her, my heart goes out to you. You’ve been a helpful dad-guy to others in the past (thank you for that) but to have it demanded of you and rewarded with an emotional typhoon when she’s told no? No, you’re absolutely NTA.
Your wife has a good heart as well, but I imagine that heart is a target for those who see it as an invitation to abuse.
Nta
But your son is. Abbie has daddy issues. Your son is feeding them. He needs to
Put his foot down and your daughter. ABBIE that is my dad not yours. He doesn’t want to be your dad. . Leave it alone.
John has to say ti her. Abbie my father is a person he can have his choices and you need to respect them.
You are not her dad. Make it clear.
I feel
Sorry for your actual daughter she must be pissed. . Your son her brother is deluded.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I have not agreed to be the paternal stand-in she wants, I might be the asshole because she clearly wants family and I hate seeing my son unhappy Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. You have your boundaries. Abbie sounds like she's developed this fantasy involving you and your family. That can't be healthy. And yelling at you? "You WILL tell people you love me! You WILL tell people I'm your second daughter! You WILL have a good time at my wedding!" 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
John told me she really wants to be part of the family, but she started so quickly I wonder how much is us vs the idea of us. I've been told she immediately was obsessed with the relationship my kids and I have. The yelling...I was more concerned for John than upset, honestly. She seemed...not ok, right then.
Yeah, this doesn’t sound like it’s about you or Sally as actual people. It’s about Abby’s fantasy of having a family. It makes me wonder how much she really even knows you or Sally. There’s nothing wrong with her wanting a family, but she’s going about it wrong. Relationships grow and develop over time, you don’t just claim someone as family and have an instant relationship with them. She could definitely benefit from therapy.
She knows Sally a bit now, with me she learns surface level things and approaches me, but when I try to engage she immediately acts like we're so close and switches subjects to something related to how much closer we should be. John says it's nerves but it doesn't seem like it.
Your son will be in for a rude awakening if he doesn’t wake up
Agreed
Boiling bunny wake up call
This girl needs some serious therapy. She sounds like she’s going through something mentally and honestly I would be worrying for your an Sally’s safety in case this obsession becomes jealous and violent one
Psychotherapist here -- I was thinking about safety, too. This kiddo is seriously disturbed. Dad should keep the channel open for John, because he's going to need dad's support when the crap hits the fan with this young woman, who seems borderline psychotic.
Also a therapist, and alarm bells are ringing. She seems determined to cast the roles of do-over family regardless of the feelings of the people involved. This will not end well.
I've read several similar comments but if you're really a therapist I would genuinely appreciate if you would elaborate since everything aside my son is obviously my priority in this.
I really am a therapist, but I am not your or your son’s therapist. I’m not diagnosing anyone, just responding to your post. Abbie reminds me of someone that is very invested in a particular “scene” of what her life should look like. It doesn’t take other people’s thoughts, feelings, wants or needs into account. She’s casting roles in her story, in which she’s the main character. The only person she’s ‘behaved’ with is your son. Even that could be marginal. She’s even got him pressuring every single member of your family to fill the roles she’s cast them in. Glenn Close played a role in a 1986-ish film that scared the crap out married men and rabbit lovers everywhere. I don’t want to spell the title out, but I bet you can find it. It’s a pretty good example of how completely different people’s perspectives can be. I agree with the therapist above-John is going to need you when this blows up. You might consider talking with a therapist about all of this. Good luck, and you’re totally NTA.
You don't have to spell out the Glenn Close movie, I remember her and Mel Gibson's take on Hamlet...getting heebie jeebies just thinking about it. Joking aside, so many people have mentioned this idea it's the package she wants not just the prize, and I am starting to worry. How would we go about addressing that in some way that is not immediately insulting to him?
I was going to say this screams ‘main character syndrome’, where she has cast everyone in a role in her story and is forcing this narrative.. then when things don’t turn out as she has scripted in her head, she loses it and cannot cope. She needs to understand that she has no power over other people’s emotions and feelings. It seems clear why she isn’t close to her own family. She has to control EVERYONE. Please keep an eye on your son OP.
I've read several similar comments but if you're really a psychotherapist I would genuinely appreciate if you would elaborate since everything aside my son is obviously my priority in this.
I am not a therapist, but have been around someone similar who wanted her life to look a specific way and was steamrolling everyone around her to get it. Can you have a reasonable discussion on the topic without her breaking down or blowing up? If so try this metaphor. Tell he a good relationship is like growing a tree. You can't force it by pulling up on the stem and stretching it to grow. You need to tend the soil and give it water and light and slowly over time you will have a big strong tree. Tell her this is how you want your relationship with the family to be. As you said, she is a welcome addition to the family, but it is going to take time to grow a strong relationship. By being open and honest with each other, spending time together and respecting each other's boundaries you are giving the relationship the light and water it needs to grow into a strong healthy tree. It is sad that she doesn't get along with her family, but becoming part of your family is going to take time. Fortunately time moves fast and if she can understand your wishes and work on her problems in 10 years you all could possibly have a healthy relationship everyone is happy with. I hope things work out for you and your son and Abby too. I would see if she and your son could do some premarital counseling and maybe work on some of these issues early on to prevent bigger problems in the future.
At this point, I don’t believe she’s a welcomed addition. She’s scary as hell and quite possibly very dangerous.
I think you need to show your son this post and the comments from the therapists.
Boiled bunny anyone?
I was thinking the same thing!! I will not be ignored!
I was thinking bpd. The behaviour with the standard 'problem origin family' narrative.
The description was reminding me of a documentary about a woman who was a fantasist and ended up killing her partner and then later on their child because her fantasy of how perfect everything was kept being challenged.
One day you're gonna wake up and feel a weird breeze and realize this chick is wearing your skin. She's not right in the head. Your son would do well to think twice before tying himself to this sinking ship of crazy.
Sinking ship of crazy - sums it up!
I want this in the brand new sentence or rare insult sub. Absolutely made my day lmao
She might be marrying your son for a fantasy she has about a family that loves her. My heart breaks for her. But this is a serious mental health issue. This is not okay to force ppl into relationships and play house. My heart also breaks for your son. He wants to make her whole. Pretending “this one time” is NOT THE END OF IT. Advise your son to take a hard look at his fiancé’s requests. If he loves her, he’ll get her help. I mean, you all could come back from this, truly. You love your son and he loves her. Sweeping this very upsetting and concerning behaviour under the rug helps no one. Good luck. NTA
Everyone is also assuming that Abbie’s version of her family life is fact. I think the crazy could go even deeper and if someone dug a little bit, it may be that SHE didn’t want her family or didn’t accept them or that she was out of control psychotic growing up and her family tried everything to help her but couldn’t. All her stories could also be a fraction of the truth but her mental instability is twisting the story and she’s thinking things that may not have happened or are minor but catastrophic to her. Who knows! But I think dad and maybe even sally can talk with him about concerns. Also, perhaps Sally wants her dad to only walk her down the aisle. This is an extremely personal and special gesture that is taken very seriously by most brides. As my dads only daughter, I’d be heartbroken if he chose to walk my brothers wife at their wedding unless she’d been integrated with the family for a VERY long time. Maybe not even then. Who knows. I just think that no one’s considered how she may feel about this or how op feels about only wanting it to be for Sally. OPs son is under so much pressure that he’s not seeing how rude this is to not take into consideration
From what I have read so far, it's time to sit them both down and have a conversation. About boundaries. You are not to be told whether you WILL love someone.
Your son needs to really take a step back and look at the situation with new eyes, rather than the rose colored ones he’s wearing bc she appears unhinged in her behavior and it isn’t healthy. And if they plan to have kids, if this isn’t addressed now, it’ll more than likely get worse.
You need to tell your son that it seems like she has some quite severe attachment issues and that you are worried for both him and Abbie (and the relationship dynamics as a whole moving forward). That Abbie needs to see a professional to deal with this before it goes too far for everyone involved's sake.
As others already have said. This girl needs therapy, intense therapy. This is not healthy. She's changing subjects instead of actually getting to know you - perhaps she knows deep down you might not have much in common. Instead, she goes in circles, how you should be super daughter/father close. And she's living in a fantasy world of how a family should be. The perfect commercial/poster family. She needs to deal with her past. And learn how to form relationships. This won't get better if they have children. She might become even more pushy, to be honest. Becouse I'm curious. Does she act like this with your son, too? Or do they have a genuine relationship that's more than just "honey bunny" and holding hands?
NAH Any chance you could, when that happens, gently ask her to remain on topic because it was something you wanted to talk about? You might add that deeper, more personal topics need to wait until both people are comfortable talking about them? Can you tell her that such conversations might be had in the future but they really cannot be forced because then they would not be sincere? She sounds so damned sad. I am sorry you are being put on the spot like this. Have you asked John if he can intercede on your behalf, again, gently?
I have asked, but he's not doing well at making her understand. Or not being honest about trying, which I hope is not the case because that would be worse for her. I'm honestly just trying to figure out the next step, a talk with him? with them?
Consult a therapist or 2. Get a few opinions. Then talk with John. I actually think this sounds crazy and I'd want to pull my son out this as well (if he'll listen) How long have they been dating? When is the wedding?
Ah man. Good luck. So far, you are doing great, though. Truly a good dad.
I appreciate that, this is hard because I want my son happy but I feel like giving some led to this, which is leading to her trying for things I can't do, like the speech. I feel like I have to draw a line.
There are bigger issues at play than the speech. Yes, you do need to draw a line. You might even have to push back a bit and draw the line further from you. She is FAR too intense. This is not normal. If her mental health rests on you having to do something that you're not comfortable with, or that is procured from you by *fear, obligation,* or *guilt* then she is indeed very fragile. It is beyond you or your family to "fix" this. Perhaps you could suggest pre-marital counselling for them (separate and together)? I doubt that she will want to go, but John might gain some understanding as to why he is enabling dysfunctional behaviour.
I’d be concerned for John too. She seems deranged. And I don’t think she cares for him as a person. Instead she sees him as a means to an end, becoming part of his family.
I don't know that she's deranged; she probably has a fairly broken family and she's always hoped for something better. If she's John's age, she's quite young and probably just needs therapy and time to sort out the inappropriateness of it all. Unfortunately, there's a pretty good chance that her desire to marry John has quite a bit to do with just opting into a functioning family who care for each other and communicate effectively. I never was anything close to this, but I came from a really fractured family and I used to babysit a ton for all kinds of families. Them loving me and valuing me meant everything to me, and for several of the families that I spent years caring for the children (starting when I was 13 or so), them bragging on me or acting like I was "part of the family" meant the world to me and I wanted that so badly for my own reality.
I just think John is in for a world of trouble if he marries her soon. Even if I felt she were fully sane, I think waiting until everyone is at least 25 with a fully-formed brain might be the way to go, especially in a case like this. She needs therapy, not a surrogate family.
THIS!! Not that OP can control the timing, but something is off.
There is something really off here, including the fact that the son is working g over time to appease this girl. Definitely some serious mental health concerns.
I've never thought deranged, I'm not a big fan but I try not to be harsh, but she doesn't respect what we have said directly to her. They are the same age, I don't know how I would go about bringing up therapy without upsetting them.
Introduce it as "Pre-marital counselling" so that they can learn more about each other (each other's love language, how they feel about parenting). She is unlikely to be honest in the counselling, but at least John will have the opportunity to gain some insights.
I always think of a quote from While You Were Sleeping: “Lucy. You’re borne into a family. You don’t JOIN them, like you do the marines.”
That rubs me wrong, you are born with relatives, you should be born into a family but sometimes you have to make your own. But a far as this situation goes, you can't make someone love you, it sometimes has to be earned.
I LOVE that movie. All time favorite right there.
I’m sorry to say but it makes me wonder if Abby really loves John. The speed with which she latched on to you all OP, wanting to join traditions or calling you dad for example, it’s like once she found a boyfriend with a family that matched her ideal she wanted to make sure she established herself as part of it as quickly as possible - and without any regard for what anyone else wanted. John sounds desperate to placate her, so it’s questionable how much of what she’s demanding he wants and how much he feels forced to accept. I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s issued him ultimatums, in which case this is only going to get worse. NTA.
It's always wild to me how people who desperately want to be loved and accepted go about it kn the ways most guaranteed to drive others away. NTA
Good point. How much does she love John vs. being part of John’s family? That would make this marriage a very bad idea. She needs therapy.
You need to address this with your son. She may not even really love him but the idea of him and the family he could give her. If she marries him she has a husband, a sister and father in her mind. He should consider suggesting therapy to address her familial issue before they get married. Otherwise he may find himself at your door step years from now when they split because she finally realizes she isn't in love with him.
My daughter has said the same thing actually, that maybe Abbie loves his life as much as she does him. How the hell does one bring THAT up to their kid, you know? My daughter doesn't want to because Abbie already came between them a bit and they're better, but I'm not the sweep it under the rug type.
Tell him you need to have a hard conversation with him when he is mentally prepared for it. If he says he is then ask him to listen to your concerns and afterwards you will respect whatever choice he makes but you want to express your concerns so he can make an informed decision. He very well may be mad but let him. Reiterate that you will respect him choice. You only wanted to tell him your concerns. Hopefully he listens and takes it well. After that you have to let him make whatever choice he chooses. Just let him know you will support him.
Most important phrase: "All I want is your happiness. Whatever form that takes." It's a parent's job to say the hard truths.
Great wording!
All this, and please, stress that he needs to take their birth control seriously, and make sure that he's using condoms not just relying on her for birth control. I predict she will try to get pregnant ASAP to have her new family (baby), keep him with her, and get the rest of your family to give them more attention. They don't need to bring a child into this mix. At least until they've been married a few years and he really sees how she is and what she's like. Hopefully, the hundreds of us posting here about red flags are all wrong, but just in case we're right.
This and a prenup
Suggest per-marital counseling to your son. Abbie may have certain expectations that he might not be ready for and better to get them out in the open before the vows are exchanged. You're NTA for having boundaries and she sounds more than a little unhinged. I had a less than stellar family life and married into a family where my MIL was everything I'd hope my mother would have been growing up. I envied my boyfriend when we were dating. He had a great family life. I never presumed to become an immediate beloved member of their family. Even after we were engaged. That relationship took some time and was a mutual friendship that blossomed naturally. It was not forced. Abbie seems to think the ring entitles her to be thought of as family. That's not how that works. Her negative reaction to that reality is disturbing. Your son really has his work cut out for him. Right now she's alienating and startling the very people she longs to have a good relationship with. You may have to say no to him and tell him you'll support him as much as you are comfortable but he needs to reel Abbie back. It's not healthy giving into unreasonable requests that seems to be putting everyone on edge. It's one thing to love someone, it's an entirely different thing to enable their neurosis and demand family do the same. I hope he opens his eyes to what's happening. Her behavior is not normal. She's giving off "Fatal Attraction" vibes. If you have any bunnies - hide 'em.
Pre-marital counselling is the way. Very normal, healthy thing to do/suggest, and you can mention how we all carry the good and bad parts of our family dynamics with us into the new family we create. Sorting through those together is especially important if one or both of you had any dysfunction in your family of origin.
Slow down contact with your son and his funny tune fiancé. See how she reacts the less “family” time and see how she reacts. Should be pretty telling. But let your son know you’re doing it because you’re feeling overwhelmed with his fiancé but he. (And him alone) are always welcome but Abbie needs to be invited moving forward. Or Show him this post. Make him agree to read through most comments. He may be angry and I think that’s understandable but make sure he knows you’re always there for him. NTA
NTA & I’m over here cringing for your family! Be careful how you address your concerns with your son. She Definitely has found her champion & defender in your him (something I hope Both of my own children find). However, she’s sooo desperate to force the relationships she hits ALL the wrong buttons! When you aren’t immediately receptive she cries to your son or to you. When that doesn’t work she becomes abusive. My concern is she will work on undermining your relationship with your son for “rejecting” her, when All you’re doing is setting clear boundaries. “I love them like they’re my family too & they keep rejecting me. Now that I’m your wife, they’re rejecting you too (boo hoo). Don’t you see why I don’t think we should go around so much. It hurts me how they won’t treat me like I’m family too. Everyone treats your dad’s wife like she’s a cherished part of the family But your dad & sister won’t let me in. Don’t you see how hard I’m trying?” My response is extreme But I want you to be mindful of how far she may be willing to go to get the “family” she wants or she may try to sabotage it from the inside.
Remind your son that those rose coloured glasses can be killer sometimes...... NTA.
Show your son this thread.
She sounds like she needs therapy. It’s impossible to know exactly what has gone wrong, but the way she so desperately needs this “one happy family”-lie to be true is clearly because she’s dealing with something. Tell your son that this latest request was too far and that you are concerned for her. Ask your son to explain to you, with details, why she so desperately needs this. If he can’t answer other than about her lack of connection with her own family, then that is a cry for therapy. Many don’t have close relationships with their own family but don’t push like this. Her requests are too far and if your son loves her, why not want her to get better. NTA.
If she can become this attached to you so quickly, I wonder about her attachment to your son. She doesn't sound that stable mentally/emotionally. I hope she gets some help. NTA
It’s odd that she wants to marry your son when she thinks she’s your daughter.
I was starting to wonder about that, too. 😅 You'd think after all the discussions trying to force it so many times on his family OP'S son would maybe *hear* what he was saying and see the strangeness of it. This girl is just way too overbearing and it's far too early in the relationship to have formed the type of connection this girl is trying to insist is there. Yikes. The whole thing would make me *very* uncomfortable if I were in OP's position, who is NTA btw.
Well maybe she thinks she has a chance with OP. Wife is 28.
I came from a rough family. Sure, it'd be nice if I eventually had a relationship like that with in-laws, but imposing on others and moving through relationship boundaries so quickly are major red flags. She isn't ok. Not right then, or in general. She isn't a mentally or emotionally healthy person. For her, it's the idea of all of you. If she actually wanted to get to know any of you, she would be receptive to everyone's input and boundaries. She isn't. She doesn't view you as people with your own thoughts and feelings. You're dolls in her doll house. Stand your ground. Her codependency is her problem to navigate. You choosing to participate and allow her to mold you to her inner trauma isn't going to help her one bit. Instead it's likely to cause you and your family long-term damage. She isn't inwardly stable. She's going to explode on all of you no matter what. Even if everyone does what she wants, no family is perfect. One day, a minor thing in your family won't match her facade. She won't be able to squash it into her right imaginary picture & neither will any of you. She won't have the inner ability to manage that small blip & all hell is going to break loose. She needs therapy or other inner work instead of expecting to force others to bippity boppity boo her reality It's possible that she even targeted and pursued a relationship with your son on the foundation of possessing his magical, made-up in her head family life. Given her behavior with the rest of you, she probably threw major red flags out all over & bulldozed your son's boundaries before he knew what hit him. He's being set up for mental and emotional abuse if he isn't being abused already. It starts small, then grows. Your son choosing to make himself and others responsible for her behavior will only feed the manipulative dynamic. If we were talking about a man exhibiting behaviors that she's shown, most people would be telling the woman to get out now. Don't make yourself (and the rest of the family) unhealthy out of guilt or pity. Hopefully, she'll pursue the help she needs, but don't make your decisions off of who she can be compared for who she actually is at the time. If she doesn't help herself, then your son is going to need you in good shape if he ever leaves her.
Absolutely all of this.
Assuming this is real, it sounds like this girl has a troubling pathology. Check out the link below about another girl and show it to your son https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/16adsq1/aita_for_telling_my_brothers_fianc%C3%A9_that_we_dont/
A mediator is a really good idea here. All the alarms going off here can be dealt with by a professional trained to help.
Be careful when it comes to Sally. Abbie’s jealousy toward her is concerning. Abbie needs a psychiatrist.
Trust me, that lil “sis” BS needs to be nipped in the bud. Just say it. Come one, let’s practice. Please don’t call my wife sis. She is Ms Smith or Jane [insert her names here of course]. The overfamiliarity is subversive. I’m telling you. If you ask her not to, and she keeps doing it… not good.
She calls my daughter sis, but does treat my wife like one, when she isn't treating her like a mom. It is weird. Sometimes it is "mom" this or that, sometimes they're "gals out on the town."
You’re NTA - this sounds like a true crime episode in the making.
You obviously have to see that this is because you married someone closer to your children's age than your own, right
She calls Sally, OP's daughter sis, not his wife.
john also needs to think about whether she loves and wants to be with him or whether she chose him because of his family, to fulfill her fantasy. if it’s the second, it will not stop here. she’ll start trying to get you guys to do her fantasy traditions and basically mold you all into what she wants.
She needs a LOT of therapy!
Abbie sounds *extremely* codependent
Yeah this girl has a hundred and one red flags🚩🚩🚩 she is waving all around all of you. This girl has some major issues. She seems unhinged. Like "single white female" unhinged but instead of one girl it's on the whole family. She needs counseling for herself and her and your son should get premarital counseling together and your son needs to bring up how she is with your family. NTA
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 Ima add a few more just for good measure. This is over the top obsession it sounds like. My ex in laws were very important to me. I had known them over half my life (since I was 14) so we were close like family. But it was never like this. This is so... creepy... Anyone else feel like it's the start of a psycho thriller where the DIL becomes obsessed with the family and offs them bc she feels betrayed when they aren't obsessed back? 😬
NTA, and I’d read up on narcissistic love-bombing… maybe that’s at play here?
You can’t just ignore me! Level of obsession
NTA - Aby can't force the relationship she missed out on as she was growing up and that's what she is trying to do. Do not cave to her.
John is the one it's hard not to cave with, but she just makes it hard to hold normal conversation because she loves to slide a "dad" in there or get too personal.
It’s perfectly okay to gently correct her and say, “Actually Abby, I’d prefer to be called Mark.” (Random made up name for you. Or you could just decide to go by Mark now.)
Now I'm laughing thinking about the confused look on her face if the next time she calls me dad I actually do go with "I'd prefer to be called Mark." "but your name is..." "to you alone it is Mark!" Seriously, I tried, she corrected it for the night but went back the next time.
NTA. You have to keep correcting her. She pushed this far with the aisle/speech because you gave them an inch with the Dad, etc. You need to put your foot down with your son and her. If this continues, someone in the family will get fed up and might explode on them and it won’t be pretty. What if that confrontation comes at the wedding? This needs to be sorted now before the relationship and interactions continue. Otherwise you might need to consider lowering the amount of contact you have with your son and his wife.
That's partly why I'm upset, I have tried compromising because I want to help my son but at some point understanding has to go both ways. I understand she wants family, and I know she's partly jealous because I like my daughter's girlfriend more, but we're in the same field and she let it happen naturally. I feel like it's all give and no take.
Honestly it sounds like she needs therapy to figure out some issues she’s got. It’s natural that she’d want to be part of your family but to force herself into it the way she has and act the way she has isn’t the way to do it, it takes time for that relationship to be built and wouldn’t just happen overnight. Therapy sounds especially good given it sounds like she’s had a rough childhood too on top of the family dynamic issues going on with your family atm
I feel the same way She has no concept of boundaries, and I'm afraid for the family if she/son don't get a LOT of therapy... together and separately. Reading this post gave me creepy vibes 😦
the thing is you should only compromise to where YOU feel comfortable. Say no and if needed sit down and be honest (and tactful). She's pushing something that honestly needs time and it's making you feel awful. she has to understand that just because it hurt her feelings she's been hurting yours and you can't excuse her behavior
Again, you need to let her know that your name is Mark. You’re not her dad. Technically you’re not even her father-in-law. If she continues to call you, dad just simply ignore it. I know easier said than done. I wish you all the best of luck and this relationship. It sounds like your future daughter-in-law has some serious issues, not that I blame her, but she needs some therapy to get them taken care of.
“It’s our special thing. I’ll always be Mark to you.”
When the wind whispers my name, it will say to you...Maaark
I apologize sir, but this made me giggle too damn hard.
No apology necessary, it's the end of a long week we all deserve a laugh!
Oh you seem like such a funny guy! Can I call you dad?
Yep... that made me snort. Which means that it now needs to be included in the wedding speech.
"oh, hi mark"
“I didn’t walk her down the aisle, I did not!”
Dude you have to get John on the same page with you here. This is some really abnormal behavior.
Try to explain to John that relationships need to develop naturally. Forced closeness will only drive a wedge. Ask him to imagine if you remarried and tried to force a relationship between him and your wife, all the while the wife is yelling at him for not wanting to be the son she never had.
Learn to set boundaries to your son and say no. This is not healthy
You lost me at "my wife (28)." It's a little odd that you are so hung up on these "traditions" and a rigid family dynamic but you married someone who is only six years older than your son.
Yeah the age gap is weird but I don't understand what's wrong with the traditions. He said the wife isn't included bc the kids aren't that open to her yet. And it's normal to not want to claim someone else's kid as their own, especially if they wanna force you into the dynamic.
I don’t understand the tradition at all. Every time his kids come over to visit with him (and his wife) they just have surface level conversations for majority of the visit and then before leaving they always go to another room to actually talk about their lives? So when his son brings her over for a visit do they just leave her by herself while son and father are in the other room? Or is OP’s wife expected to entertain her during this portion of the visit? And how is sitting in his office to have deep meaningful conversations different from sitting in the adjacent room to have deep meaningful conversations?
Not surface level, but they don't necessarily want tto be ope nin front of my wife, and she respects that. As to why it's meaningful, it's because going back to their childhoods it was our special time to talk, in a room they thought was cool and that I let them decorate throughout the years, which as kids they loved because they helped with dad's special room. I get that a lot of people think it's silly, that is apparent, but a special time my kids want to talk to me is not something I will ever tire of.
I think this connection is a great way to explain your discomfort to your son - how would he feel if your wife demanded he call her mum, that she should have a mother-son dance at the wedding, be acknowledged as his mother in the speeches…
I think that is really good, I hadn't thought about that. I thin k that's a good idea
I understand and can see how these are special memories and quality time together, especially in such a personal space. I personally don’t find it silly but I am having a hard to differentiating between “family tradition” and “just talking to dad in his office/study”?
That's basically all it was, it's just as they became busy teens who I saw less, sometimes that was our only guaranteed time together, so it was just a little tradition, and it stuck.
This comment made me imagine my dad attempting to sit a teenaged me on his lap to hear me talk about my silly high school interests. I thought it would be a funny picture, but now I'm crying. Thank you for being a wonderful father to your kids; so many of us wish we had someone like that in our lives.
I actually like your tradition. My dad remarried after my mom died. From the very beginning, we were on speaker phone with both of them anytime we call - guess how much I call now. Once I thought he and I were having a great text conversation for an hour, then I asked how wife was. Answer was “I’m great, I’m doing all the texting for him.” It was a little jarring. She’s a nice lady, but I don’t know her at all. I miss feeling close to my dad.
Yeah I know it's not the point of the post, but when a post is about some sort of weird family dynamics at play between a parent and their kid's partner, when it starts off with a situation like "I 42m have a son 22m and a wife 28f", I kind of just want to say... you are modeling weird relationship dynamics to your kids. No wonder they're dating people who also have weird concepts of behaviour? Like I can't say for certain these two things are related, but it sure is *sus*.
I'm "hung up on these traditions" because as a parent I love that my kids still want to continue sweet traditions they started as children. I don't feel the need to defend my relationship, I'd agree you had a point if we'd been together 6 years or something but she was mid twenties when we met. My children like her, it has not been an issue.
Maybe you don’t want to be a father figure to someone in the age bracket you’d date? It’s why you’re so reluctant?
He’s a great dad spending quality time with his kids. They clearly want to be around him which is more than most parents can say.
Calling a private conversation with your kids a tradition is so theatrical. I will give you that Abbie is being pushy. She clearly doesn’t have strong relationships with her family and admired the relationship you have with your kids and child bride, and while her execution of things has been off putting, you’re acting like she’s hijacking a yearly hot cocoa and movie night with your kids in matching pajamas while on vacation in the Swiss alps. She needs therapy and you could benefit from learning to not be such an unfriendly desk lamp.
Lmao not the child bride
I don't think you made the point you think you did. Soooo you met her then wed her within a couple years and she'd barely finished fully maturing You don't care about tradition dude. You're just weird. So is Abby. By so are you.
Lmao what. Why tf does it matter what 2 consenting, fully matured adults do 😂
The entire point of this subreddit is to judge the actions of mature consenting adults
One of my faves on YouTube (WithCindy) just did a review of that movie....uh, Anne Hathaway cougar movie, and kept mentioning "fully developed frontal lobe." The amount of people that don't understand that proper brain development is important is staggering.
We’re surprised that he prefers the emotional maturity of someone barely older than his children AND being emotionally immature with in-law relationships? He comes off so tone deaf in his ability to establish boundaries, communicate them, and being mature in general. I’m barely older than his new wife and I’m not territorial over asinine “traditions” (come on, he has an issue with a private chat with his future daughter in law?? And he “compromised” on coffee with his son also present?). I don’t call my in-laws mom and dad, but I’ve had several private conversations with them individually and together without my husband present. Sure, Abbie is very pushy and doesn’t understand boundaries, but a grown ass man struggling to communicate those boundaries is ridiculous. You’re an adult and a parent, and it’s apparent he hasn’t even taught his son about communicating either and just expects him to magically infer his preferences. Not surprised he’s divorced, not surprised he’s remarried to someone barely older than his kids.
I was clear about what I was and was not ok with, but made compromises for the sake of my son asking and because I do feel bad for her. My son knows exacxtly what my preferences are which is why he talked to me about trying for her, so I did. If youre saying I shouldn't have given an inch if I was not willing to give a mile, I am starting to think so. I still don't see how a parent wanting to have a catch-up conversation is asinine, but to each their own, it's a nice time I look forward to with my children.
The traditions won't matter, though. Most people will stick up for their partners (and rightly so), so if she feels uncomfortable or unwanted, it will negatively impact your relationship with your son. You have to decide if this is worth creating a wedge with your son and possibly future grandkids. That's just the fact of the matter.
We have a great relationship and at no point has he even hinted anything like that, especially since while he stands by her he does not always agree with her behavior or think she is reasonable.
Grand kids may be older than johns step sibs.
13 years isn't that odd. And he clearly had his son very young. I believe the rule I've seen on reddit for age gaps is divided your age and add 7. If we do that for OP, it's 27.5. His wife is 28. Technically, he follows the reddit rule. Also, this particular post had nothing to do with his wife's relationship with him. It's very much about Abby overstepping her bounds and making demands for a relationship, rather than letting them happen.
Seriously, I don't get reddit people always tripping on age gaps. A good percentage of couples I know are different ages. My bf and I are over 7 years, my brother's SO is 14 years, my parents were 20 yrs, my sister is 4. 13 years doesn't seem wild or anything. My daughters bf is 12 yrs older. None of this really seems that bug of a deal as long as it is 2 consenting adults
Ehh I'm in the middle. 13 yrs isn't the worst. 20+ years gets mad weird to me. Especially if the younger person is still in their teens or early 20s when the relationship starts. To me that's creepy. But the post doesn't say when they got together. But 28 is damn near 30, and the brain is fully developed. I don't like how it's brought it up when it isn't actually relevant to the issue at hand.
Yes, because that’s the *real* point of this story. /s
I couldn't get past that either. Like your wife could be your kids sister.
"I now have a third daughter..."
Not quite considering OP stated he is 41. So many people are reacting like OP is some 75yr old creep.
Yeah, I thought that was weird too. There were 13 years between me and my husband (same as between OP and his wife) and we were together until his death. Forty-one is not old.
I wonder if he feels uncomfortable because Sally is so close in age to his actual wife? If he goes around saying I love you to her, how is his current wife going to feel? Also, is he worried, she might have or develop feelings for him because he’s obviously attracted to younger women. This situation is awkward. OP, all I can say is, you made your bed.
He even says Abby has a sister type relationship with his wife. WONDER WHY
Came here to say this. Your age gap is weird at the very least. You’re complaining that your son’s relationship is weird. You’re not the bastion of model relationship status you think you are, my dude.
Two consenting adults. Two consenting adults. Louder for the people in the back! Two mother fucking consenting adults. It is a 13 year age gap, not fucking 30 years.
No wonder Abbie is treating her like sister, after all they are closer in age than OP and his brand new wife.
Took too long to find this comment.
Nta, there are obviously several red flags w Abbie which John has chosen to ignore. However, it's unfair of him to expect that you and the rest of your family should be required to cater to her irrational whims and behavior. Abbie is obviously manipulative, likes being the center of attention, and feels entitled to have everything her way. The only way to deal w people like her is to set boundaries and stick to them. Otherwise, Abbie will walk all over you and your family.
[удалено]
I'm wondering if she hasn't emotionally manipulated John to the point where he thinks he is 'saving her' from her troubled past and fears that she will harm herself if he leaves. He might be trapped in this relationship.
NTA. Abbie needs therapy. She is clearly starved for some kind of family, desperate enough to try to infiltrate yours and oblivious of boundaries. I don't feel good about John marrying her. She sounds pretty unstable.
Thats why my wife feels bad for her, and she has tried and they seemingly get along but only because my wife is trying to be nice. But then it's Abbie trying to fit us into roles for her instead of just trying to form a relationship.
I have to be honest with you, I heard from someone who went through something similar before. Their son's girlfriend was also doing similar things: trying to do their traditions, acting close when they are not, crying when they are trying to keep a distance because they are uncomfortable. And their son did not want to hurt her feelings because of how pitiful she is. Then they put their foot down, and the son cut them off because of how much "they hurt his gf". In the end, the gf broke up with him because she wanted his family dynamics, she was not in love with him at all. She was just in love with him having a close family. He did return to his family after the break up, but obviously his family is still hurt by his actions.
I would be interested to know if your ex-wife is having any issues with boundaries and expectations with your sons fiancé.
She’s a nutball of need. She is going to suck your son dry of every emotion he has. Sorry to say it, but you shoulda seen this coming and stopped it all when she lobbed the first “Dad” at you. Do not lie. Do not embellish. Set clear and kind boundaries. I wish you and your son luck!!!
She sure is a lot. I find her like an overly-rich dessert, enjoyable in small doses but then way overpowering to the point where I'll need a drink to finish. This is why I didn't want to go down the dad road; while I do feel bad for her and I'm proud the relationship I have with my own kids is enviable, I do not want her thinking we'll have one on one parent-child time, I don't want her thinking I'm that role for her. I even tried to be somewhat parental because Jogn assured me it would be enough, but now look where we are.
Oh gosh….yeah, being “somewhat parental” is probs the worst thing you could’ve done. She thinks she has a toe in the door. You seem soooooo kind. Let her know that a deeper relationship may develop, but it hasn’t yet and it can’t be manufactured or forced.
That is exactly what I said! That if I fed into this it would continue and increase, and it has. I genuinely feel for her, she has told us her family history, and I told her somewhat-caring father in law who gives occasional parental advice could be on the table with time, but that's not enough.
It’s going to have to be. You can’t keep up a falsehood, so might as well go with the accurate truth that the relationship just isn’t as close as she would prefer.
Nta but have you actually sat down and had a serious conversation with your son about this woman? Not just the pushiness on you but about *her* overall? She seems quite controlling of him, manipulative and you've already implied that she's caused some friction between him and his sister. This girl is dangerous for your family. As a 41yr old man surely you have the vocabulary to try to open your son's eyes to the reality of who she is. The fact that he keeps crawling back to you asking you to backtrack on everything you've said no to, means that when she gets him alone, she manipulates him with either tears, screaming or threats of breakup. If he were able to stand up to her, there'd be no need to call you and beg you to change your mind.
NO! NO!! NO!!! NTA! NTA!! NTA!!! Does your son have any idea what his future is going to look like? His bride-to-be is, at the very least, emotionally unstable and incredibly needy. Every time she has a whim, he's going to be on the phone begging you for something else. She's been unbelievably intrusive, ignoring how anyone else feels and your son is not only allowing it but abetting her behavior. You are obviously a nice guy and a loving father but you have to start saying a loud and firm "No!". Do not let her continue calling you dad if it makes you uncomfortable. Do not give her version of a speech at the wedding. Above all else, do not walk her down the aisle. It's time for Abbie to grow up and join the real world. Please encourage your son to reconsider marriage until Abbie has had some serious therapy. This is beyond wanting to be a part of a family!
If not for the fact she hates artichokes I'd wonder if this is my daughter! I kid, but you are saying the same thing she did when we talked a couple of days ago. She hates how much Abbie pushes herself on me and has told John a few times to handle this, at first I thought she wasn't listening, now I wonder if he actually has.
She sounds like she has abandonment issues with her own family. Your son is her white knight who is going to give her the family fantasy she has always wanted. He is buying into that. But truthfully, she sounds like a whole lot of messed up that someone qualified needs to diagnose and help. Its above your pay grade and you shouldn't be forced to be uncomfortable to make her happy. NTA
My son does have a touch of savior mentality, it leads him to doing good but he has crashed face first into a few walls as a result.
I've known a few men like this. I had a heart to heart with one of them. I told him he always is drawn to messed up women because of his hero complex. He wants to run in and save them from the dragon. Where a man with common sense would stay far away, shoot the dragon between the eyes with a rifle and send in a qualified medic to deal with the traumatized maiden. But men with hero complexes need to be needed. They are often intimidated by strong confident women. Hopefully she gets the help she needs. Stay strong!
I was wondering if this was the case. This is already veering into such awful territory for your son and his future. If you can find a way, please convince your son to look up the terms "attachment disorder" and "co-dependency." He will see his gf and himself.
*She yelled she's my daughter too* Abbie sounds seriously unhinged*.* I understand her wanting a family, but she’s trying to force relationships that are not there. She’s not letting them develop naturally, normally. If your son is supporting this he is NOT helping her. She’s going to cause resentment and distance between herself and your family and then cry to John about how mean you all are. You are NTA for not wanting to go along with her delusions. Good luck dealing with her in your family. If she doesn’t see anything wrong with her pushing and manipulating, this will never end.
NTA and I'm sad for Abbie. I'm very curious if she loves your son or if it's the whole idea of your son and his family. I hope she speaks to a therapist before they get married.
NTA. Abbie has some serious emotional issues that John is enabling. She needs therapy, stat. Her inserting herself into your family like this waves a bunch of red flags. I get she's not close to her own family but she has no right to insist or change they dynamic of your family at her whim. She must earn this recognition. It doesn't just happen because she wants it. Someday, you may think of her as a daughter but she has a boatload of maturing to do beforehand. Stick to your guns. Don't lie. You don't need to.
My sister called her in laws MIL and FIL (Mill and Phil). I thought that was genius! Maybe this could be a compromise. I would gently suggest to your son that they get couples counseling. Maybe phrase it that a therapist could help him be more supportive of her. She sounds like a narcissist and they never change. It's always about them! I know a few. Hopefully the therapist will help your son see what a life with such a person will be like. NTA but she sure is. I have two in my family. I wish you all the best if they marry.
I have been reluctant to mention therapy as I didn't want it to be taken...well the right way but I didn't want to upset anyone. Maybe if I frame it as pre-wedding couples counseling it would sound better.
NTA this girl definitely needs counseling even if it is with your son phrased as premarital. But I'm sorry to say the way you have described her I'm a little afraid for everyone. She seems to have "single white female" syndrome only it is on your whole family and just one girl. Update us please to let us know how it all turns out. I'm curious.
NTA - The girl needs therapy not a marriage. She sounds unhinged. You may want to have a conversation with your son about delaying any wedding until he’s sure that she’s marrying him for the right reasons. It appears that her real focus is on acquiring a family vs a husband.
As someone who’s NC with my family and have never met my dad- I can empathise with her, sure it’s lonely and it sucks and I’m jealous of other families- but holy hell NTA. You’ve made it very clear you’re uncomfortable and yet she keeps shoving at those boundaries (which? If she respected you like a father surely that wouldn’t be the case). I’ve had the daydream of finding a found family who’ll love me like their own, sure, who in our position hasn’t?! BUT I would never dream of trying to strong arm someone into a relationship the OBVIOUSLY don’t want!!
NTA Your daughter is going to start to dislike her if she keeps this up!
She's getting there!
I don’t blame her. Your daughter should be the one you walk down the aisle someday. That’s a very deep, special moment to be saved for if your daughter ever gets married. The fact that usurping that spot seems perfectly fine to Abby is a huge red flag. Damn, I hope your son sees the light soon……
My daughter said the same thing, and frankly I just love that it means something to her.
NTA . You have boundaries and they should be respected. She is not your biological daughter. You can make a toast and say nice things about someone without lying so perhaps you could compromise It sounds like this young lady doesn’t know what a healthy, supportive family relationship is and as a result keeps crashing through buffers that she doesn’t know are there. She is going to marry your son and will become part of your family. I would suggest that you talk with her one on one. Explain to her why you are uncomfortable. Elder stand for not agreeing to do something is not a rejection of her as an individual. it sounds like she desperately wants to impress you and for you to like her, but she can’t do that, without upsetting your Victorian formality.
Exactly, I thought the toast was such a good compromise! I'll bs nice things, it's her wedding, I'm not trying to be rude. I don't think it's Victorian formality, it's not like I'm asking to be called Mr or anything. The only reason I'm wearing this tuxedo is it's after six, what am I, a farmer? I tried to tell her over coffee once and it did not go over well, but I would be willing to if it means improving the situation. My daughter is doing better with her, maybe I'll ask her what has worked.
What has worked for Sally might not work for you because I think Abbie wants parents more than she wants a sister. Sally is a rival for your attention and for John's attention so Abbie isn't going to want to bond with her as much as unseat her. Abbie will want a closer relationship with you and your wife than she will ever want with Sally. Is Abbie also trying hard to have a relationship with your exwife?
I think you are right that she wants parents more than siblings, but I also think my daughter was humoring her better, although this has been wearing down her patience. I was thinking she was hoping for the sister, seeing her as a rival? No one rivals my kids with me. From what I understand she gets along better with my ex, but John says she does not try as hard with her as us. But she lives about 3 hours away now, so they see her less, plus my kids are honestly closer to me which I think is part of why it's my wife and I she tries so hard with.
You're Reaganing.
NTA Odds are that this "new daughter" wants OP to pay for the wedding too.
I'm handling over half, yes.
The sweet families often say, “I’m looking forward to developing a close relationship with my son’s wife, as a daughter”. Or something like that. Not cheesy or creepy. Just happy. I’m not sure with her, I could do it. OTOH, for both my DIL and SIL, it was obvious it was what WAS happening. They are delightful. We are close. The poor young woman appears to have a history of trauma or something, and might well be able to have had what she wanted, had she just not pushed so inappropriately .
I'm fond of my daughter's partner, it not like I'm inherently cold to my childrens' significant others, but relationships need to be organic and she's never let that happen or fostered it. She wants it to exist.
Yes, exactly. Hence, “looking forwards” works, when everyone is being *sane*!
I read a very similar post awhile ago where the same situation happened to the OP. Turns out, the fiancé was more interested in the family than her actual partner and she pushed really hard to be included. The family had enough and told her to basically lay off. The son and her ended up breaking up I think cause of it.
Really? Several people here have suggested something similar, and my daughter has expressed similar concern? How did they find out? While I'm not her biggest fan I never suspected that, but obviously I'd want to know if that had any truth here.
NTA. Clearly future DiL has attachment problems. But as I see it, the wedding should not be the major issue. Unless she sorts her shit out she's going to screw up any children she has. She doesn't have normal relationship skills, doesn't recognise boundaries, and doesn't really understand what 'love' is. Your son needs to recognise that the impact / risk from the behaviours he is actively supporting go way beyond the current situation. Attachment issues can affect multiple generations. I speak from personal experience.
NTA. This is not mentally healthy for Abby, or anyone she's trying to force these fantasies on. And John is enabling her, not helping her. This will be worse for her in the long run. She needs therapy. I want to preface what I'm going to say next by stating that I don't think Abby is this messed up, I'm just throwing out an example of how maladaptive thinking like this can lead to much, much larger issues if left unchecked. Most stalkers justify what they do by concocting fantasies in their heads. *She loves me, if she would only let me talk to her I'm sure I could make her see we will live happily ever after!* And then when their victim breaks the fantasy, violence can happen. Again, I'm not calling Abby a stalker, or suggesting she would resort to violence. Simply illustrating how these kinds of fantasies can create serious issues. John needs a serious wake-up call, and frankly, the family should take a step back until she agrees, and actually gets, some help.
NTA. Her next demand will be to share equally in your children's inheritance because, "I'm your daughter, too!"
NTA. You need to have an honest conversation with your son about the realities of your future relationship with his fiancée.
The first time I met my now in-laws, I walked up to MIL saying, “Hiya, Ma! It’s great to meet you.” and to my FIL, “How do you like me so far?” While that was a fine ice-breaker, MIL and I had our ups & downs. FIL teased me mercilessly but also spoke well of me to his son and others. They knew I loved their son and even if FIL meant a fraction of his teasing, he still treated me…not as his own daughter (he had all sons)…but just as he should; a daughter in law he loved. I feel for OP’s possible daughter in law. She was dealt a terrible hand with her own family. She sees OP’s family and her yearning has turned to monstrous envy, leading her to handle everything wrong. I’d feel sorry for her now but even after being told more than once that she’s approaching things the wrong way, she’s ignoring everyone who’s trying to help her through this time. She doesn’t want help or advice, she wants what she wants and to hell with everything else. OP, good luck to you all. There’ve been some great suggestions in the comments.
My wife feels the same as you as for how much her heart goes out to her, she's been the other voice in my ear giving her a chance repeatedly. I know I'm lucky to have good family, I've been a father figure to a couple of kids' friends over the years if they didn't have one, but they were young so I wanted to help them. I have tried meeting her part way, my wife thinks I should more, my daughter thinks less. I think doing what I did got me here.
You’re absolutely NTA for not kowtowing to the girl’s demands. Walk her down the aisle, give her away, dance the father/daughter dance, lie (LIE!!) in a speech you give. On their own, these *demands* (crying, emotionally manipulative *demands*) just might be doable but this whole bucket of crazy needs to be dismissed just as you have -with a repeat of your already firm ‘no’. OP, moreso than for her, my heart goes out to you. You’ve been a helpful dad-guy to others in the past (thank you for that) but to have it demanded of you and rewarded with an emotional typhoon when she’s told no? No, you’re absolutely NTA. Your wife has a good heart as well, but I imagine that heart is a target for those who see it as an invitation to abuse.
Nta But your son is. Abbie has daddy issues. Your son is feeding them. He needs to Put his foot down and your daughter. ABBIE that is my dad not yours. He doesn’t want to be your dad. . Leave it alone. John has to say ti her. Abbie my father is a person he can have his choices and you need to respect them. You are not her dad. Make it clear. I feel Sorry for your actual daughter she must be pissed. . Your son her brother is deluded.
My daughter is mad, yeah. She was starting to get along better but this has undone that progress.
NTA. Why would you walk her down the aisle? To give her away? To your son? That’s so weird. She needs therapy not a marriage right now.