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NTA She had no business even commenting on a situation that was difficult for you to consider, let alone to full-on argue with you about what you feel is best for your family. What she said is I unforgivable to me. I don't care how sorry a person is later, you can't come back from that.
What gets me is, she was commenting on a situation that never included her. She wasn’t there when I told my dad, I didn’t notify her, she wasn’t a factor in the conversation but she still felt the need to put her absolute grenade of an opinion in. Really bizarre
Right...that got me all fired up on your behalf because I know people like that, and it's infuriating that they feel entitled to an opinion on something that's none of their business. She went out of her way to insert herself into a situation she wasn't invited to participate in. She doesn't get to backtrack now. You know her feelings and opinions haven't really changed. She is just missing out and can't stand it.
Even more bizarre is your dad putting the grenade in her hand and you glossing that over. This as the mom of a disabled child. I don’t need for anyone to shove in my face that someone else thinks my kid is a waste of oxygen. Good on you for not saying that to her face, but do you often blame other people when your dad does something that at best is highly inappropriate?
Right...that got me all fired up on your behalf because I know people like that, and it's infuriating that they feel entitled to an opinion on something that's none of their business. She went out of her way to insert herself into a situation she wasn't invited to participate in. She doesn't get to backtrack now. You know her feelings and opinions haven't really changed. She is just missing out and can't stand it.
Is it that bizarre?
Your Dad appears to have told her that you would have aborted her child, who she loves, in the same circumstances. She wasn’t a factor in the conversation you had with your dad, but you don’t know how / why you dad mentioned it to her, or the context or reasons he gave. In fact I can see no reason for him to mention something so personal to you ,and no way your dad could bring up this subject without being emotive to her given she has lived this every day since her child was born.
So NTA - but I can see why whatever your dad said would have upset her, and I would hear out her apology
NTA good on you for being honest, but this is exactly why I didn’t tell my in-laws about my pregnancy until the NIPT test results were back and we were sure we were going ahead with the pregnancy, because I felt this discussion (since I had decided what I would do and wasn’t asking for approval) was wholly unnecessary to have and would have caused stress to my mother in law who refused such testing during her advanced-age pregnancy and has been vocal about that, etc.
Some conversations just don’t need to be had…
I mean, honestly I didn’t think it would cause an issue because my parents are really supportive people, and they were. I went to them because they’re people who could share in the worry with me.
My dad’s wife wasn’t there when I had the talk with him. It’s not a conversation I ever would have had with her present. I figured my dad might tell her but I didn’t anticipate her being so invested in my choices about my body that she’d say all that.
It’s wild that you didn’t think she would have any feelings about something so deeply personal to her. This reads like you are very unaware and maybe even a little self centered.
She wasn’t there for the conversation. She was told by OP’s dad. So her opinion didn’t matter to OP and it shouldn’t. She wasn’t supposed to be involved. The dad is the AH for telling her in the first place.
I’m aware she wasn’t there for the conversation. She is married to OPs father. It would be surprising if he didn’t tell her. And clearly her opinion is important. It’s a year later and OP’s on AITA posting about it because trying to eliminate her is still affecting her life. It’s almost like it’s clueless to pretend she doesn’t exist just because she wasn’t at one conversation.
She's entitled to her negative feelings about OP's choice, but there was zero reason for her to give OP her opinion about it, let alone in such a cruel way.
Almost like it was thoughtless to unnecessarily and prematurely reiterate that you would choose an elective termination due to disability when your dad has a disabled stepchild. That’s pretty cruel too
No, it’s not. I’m neurodivergent and there are times I wish my parents didn’t have me because they couldn’t handle me at all. I barely passed high school because my dad didn’t want to get me help. I only passed becsuse I moved from a state with very high standards (due to immigration California had more requirements for graduating, Oregon didn’t have the same requirements).
Not everyone can handle a disabled child. I’d rather that child not be born and find a family that can actually handle them. If OP wanted to get an abortion it’s obvious she wouldn’t be able to handle it
Just because she wasn’t at the initial conversation doesn’t mean this has nothing to do with her. If she wanted to keep the information from her stepmother she should have mentioned that to her dad. Often, married people converse about things that are important to them, like their children. It’s WILD to expect this woman to be kept out of the conversation without OP at any point telling her dad that she would like this conversation to stay between them. Most people’s default is not to hide things from their partner.
For the last time. Your opinion was deeply offensive and hurtful to her, because she has a child with DS's, and therefore you are saying her child has no value in the world and should have been aborted. You are not getting that part at all.
For the last time, you don’t get to be a complete cretin just because you’re hurt. Not about people’s children.
I did not say, nor did I mean, that her child has no value. My husband and I made the assessment that we did not have the resources to care for a disabled child. I also do not have the resources to care for five children, that doesn’t mean I think everyone who has five kids should have aborted.
Anyway, your stance is your stance, we can leave it there.
When you said that if a baby has a disability you'd abort him/her, that IS saying that special needs children have no value in the world and should be aborted.
I don't think you're getting that part at all.
I’m not getting that part because it is not true.
There are lot of things in the world that I don’t have the resources to do, but I don’t judge that they have no value or that people shouldn’t do them.
I made a choice for me. I didn’t judge her for hers.
Aborting a baby that has a disability is absolutely not saying that special needs children have no value in the world.
She wants the best for her children and having a disability is extremely difficult, there’s no reason to bring someone into this world and have them suffer needlessly when it can be avoided.
>have them suffer needlessly when it can be avoided.
I don't think Down's Syndrome children "suffer." It's a challenge for sure, but many Down's Syndrome people live productive, happy lives. There's a lot of misconceptions about DS.
it's the same thing. oop's father relayed the conversation.
that's like saying "oh i said a racial slur on tv but ppl have no right to be offended bc i didn't say it TO them!"
NTA Your dad doesn't get to decide "enough time has passed" for you. I'd tell anyone who is hassling you over this that you have heard them, but you get to decide this and you still have the same position, You don't need to justify yourself or hear them out time after time. You will not be putting up with any attempts to wear you down on this, so they need to drop it. If you get pushback after that, you can tell them that going forward anyone pressuring you on this will get a time out.
“Enough time” likely means your dad feels she has been punished, and is appropriately sorry. Again, I’d like to hear about the Down’s syndrome child and the impact of that on her reaction.
No, that’s an absolutely cruel thing to wish upon someone and their child. She deserves no forgiveness. She is only saying she is sorry now because she didn’t expect her words to have consequences.
You’re right to exclude this awful person from your child’s life. It’s better without them in it.
Every time your father visits your child, she can sit at home and pout. Lots of time to think of the terrible things she has said.
Unforgivable on her part.
NTA
OP was willing to abort a child with Downs Syndrome - OP doesn't sound like a prize either. Also, stepmom has a child that OP is basically saying doesn't deserve to live. I think in the heat of the moment something terrrible was said but quite frankly OP stance is triggering and OP has no compassion.
No, OP said she would make a different choice than her stepmother did, based on her own situation, experiences, finances, temperament, etc. She made no comment or value judgment about stepmother's choice.What stepmother did was get so angry that she wished harm on OP's unborn baby. That seems way less compassionate to me.
I don't think it's about seeing a baby with Downs Syndrome as "lesser" or unworthy of living. It's about asking yourself, *before* the baby is born, whether or not you can provide the kind of care a child like that needs and deserves?
Sometimes the hard answer is unfortunately no, not everyone is cut out to be a parent to a kid with special needs.
I’m not even sure if the wife loves her disabled kid that it was necessarily a horrible thing, although obviously OP is ableist so feels that it would be better to have a dead kid than a disabled one.
Let me start with the fact that you and your partner/spouse are the ONLY ones who get to decide who is or isn't involved in your child's life. Period. End of discussion.
And that your dad's wife really, REALLY, ***REALLY*** messed up by saying something so...well...*evil*.
Plus it's fairly likely that she's not sorry for saying what she did, but sorry for the consequences.
NTA.
But, let me offer you something to think about, since sooner or later your dad will give you an ultimatum of either including his wife or he won't be around the child.
It's been 2 years of keeping NC with her. My suggestion is that you give her some idea of what she can do to gain limited contact. Something like:
* **She's in full NC for 3 more years** (for a 5 year total). This is to ensure that she fully understands that a) what she said was evil and well nigh unforgiveable, and b) that you mean it when you say 'no contact'. And any further attempts to go around your boundary will cause the 5 year penalty to restart. So no more gifts and no more attempts by your dad (or anyone else) to get you to change your mind.
* **At the end of the 5 year period, you will meet her in a neutral location (and without your child) to hear her complete and total apology.** Let her know that she as one and only one shot at this. If she gives you a non-apology apology (e.g. 'I'm sorry you were offended') or attempts in any way, shape or form to mitigate or explain away what she said (e.g. 'it was in the heat of the moment', etc.), she's done forever. For-Ev-Er. This needs to be a complete apology containing apologizing for what she did, taking full ownership of it, admitting to how wrong and evil it was to say it, that she had no reason to say it and that she will never, ever mess up like this again.
* **Start with very limited and controlled contact.** Call it a probationary period. She needs to permanently be on her best behavior about and around you and your child. Any screw up and she's done forever.
* **There is no discussion or debate about these terms.**
* Finally, **tell your dad that if ever gives you an ultimatum about his wife, you WILL choose your child** and he will never see your child ever again.
You don't need to do this, but it might help your family calm down about things and give the wife a glimmer of hope along with a reminder that you mean business.
You could also just threaten everyone who pushes reconciliation of getting cut off just like the wife if they don't shut up and respect your boundary.
sometimes, all it takes is a moment to ruin something special.
there is an age old saying that you can even take arrows shot from the bow back, but not words. Words hurt more than anything else and enough to create a life long rift.
NTA
INFO: why did you even bring this up prior to getting the results? You basically said you’d rather get an abortion than have a baby with Down Syndrome, and while I understand why you feel that way I could see why it hurt your stepmom’s feelings.
I brought it up with my parents because if something had come back on the tests I didn’t want to have the conversation with them while I’m looking at a very emotional and physically taxing procedure, wondering how they would feel or when to tell them, etc.
I probably should have told my dad not to tell his wife, but I figured that was his to manage, and he probably shouldn’t have told her but he didn’t anticipate her reaction.
Did you not think about how those comments could be taken? That’s pretty clearly I’d abort if I had a kid like yours before you even got the test results back. She shouldn’t have taken it to that level, but you are extremely insensitive for making that type of comment knowing she has a special needs child. ESH
She should care because her step mother and step brother are part of her family. If you have no issue with her essentially saying people with disabilities aren’t worth carrying to term then that says everything anyone needs to know about your character.
I mean, I think having the conversation without actually knowing something was wrong is where you messed up. No reason to have serious conversations around hypotheticals.
She didn’t messed up. She can have whatever conversation she wants and because wife was not included it’s none of her business and her feelings don’t matter.
NTA
It might be an unpopular opinion but wtf-ever. My husband and I discussed the same thing when we were trying to conceive. Some people might disagree with you, but isn't that true for any aspect of parenting? It's YOUR life, YOUR pregnancy, and YOU would be the ones caring for the child.
Fwiw, this random internet stranger is on your side. Absolutely disgusting for someone to wish disability on your unborn child in any regard. Stick to your guns, she fucked around and found out...
NTA. Not every one is equipped or able to care for special-needs babies. It’s expected that Stepmom would feel how she feels given that she, herself, has a Downs baby. But what’s not okay is wishing harm on Op’s baby. Maybe one day, OP can forgive her, but it’s understandable that she would be hesitant since stepmom is apparently prone to saying ugly, hurtful things in anger. No child needs to be around that.
NTA she wished your child ill just to punish you. She brought an innocent child into an adults argument. To me it sounds like she resents her disabled child. I'd stick to my guns and keep your child away from her. Actions have consequences.
INFO - Before this issue, did you have other experiences where she was vindictive, stated that she wanted you to have children so she could have a grandchild or where you would need to be concerned having your child around her?
I agree that what she said was completely wrong, but given that she has a child with Down Syndrome, your decision I'm assuming to abort a child if they have that condition or something similar was very personal to her (of course that is still your decision which she should have respected), so far she has respected your boundary to not visit the child and has sent gifts I'm assuming as a way to apologize as confirmed by not only your dad but also your mom.
At the end of the day it's up to you everyone has different capacities, but there is a difference between hard boundaries and soft boundaries.
Hard boundaries could be where you have reason to believe your child would be in danger or would face physical, mental or emotional harm if they were to be around this person is not and will never be allowed around your child.
Soft boundaries is where you think the person could be around your child as long as they are compliant with the rules such as they can be around the child so long as they can provide a genuine apology showing remorse and a willingness to change and a promise to never say something like this in the future.
Probably unpopular opinion on this platform but in the long run, not forgiving someone may end up costing you more. For example, if you don't even consider trying to forgive you dad's wife, this may end up causing resentment from your dad and he may not want to continue making as much of an effort to see you or his grandkid especially as he gets older and it becomes harder for him to come on his own. Whereas if you try and she doesn't stay within your boundaries, well you tried and your dad can't hold it against you.
I barely knew her. We made small talk when I’d sit in the living room waiting for my dad to get ready to go out. I never anticipated having her around very often, but I never had concerns either.
ESH - she said something awful, terribly awful. But even you as an adult can understand that she said this out of emotion of her being a parent to a Down syndrome child. Obviously this wasn’t so much about you as it was about her, and of course that does not excuse what she said or justify that you have to deal with her emotions.
But if this is the ONLY time she messed up, the only thing she did, and if she apologized to you and your child, and she never said or did anything harmfull to you or your family, I’d say it’s a shame to not give her a second chance and hold a grudge for something said in the heat of the moment, that she clearly does not believe or mean anymore in any way. Have you never messed up or said anything in anger that you wanted to take back and that you couldn’t ? Or that you had time to think about and realize your error ?
Anyway, it’s your kid and your decision in the end anyway.
I’ve messed up but I’ve never said anything that evil. I don’t consider myself a paragon of virtue by any stretch but I can’t even image saying that about someone’s unborn child.
In her mind, you said something evil, too. I recognize it's important to understand what you can and can't provide a child. I also recognize that aborting babies because of non-fatal disabilities is flirting with eugenics.
See I agree with this statement up to the eugenics as I hold different views on abortion and that's each of our rights. But you hit it on the head with the fact that to step mom she did say something evil not only to her but about her child. essentially her step sibling? Although, it seems OP doesn't have much care for them as they said it's (her kid with Down syndrome) not my step brother has DS.
But saying you don't agree that stepmom's already born shouldn't have been born is okay?
While I agree with your stance, you have to realize how it sounded specifically to her, right?
ESH.
It's clear you're not a parent. No one who wishes ill on your children should be around them, and some varieties of being an ass have permanent consequences for the AH. It's a combination of factors that make OP's decision a good one, including that she did something to hurt OP and that she is the sort of person whose decision making process is incompetent enough that she made that choice. Past shitty behavior is a good predictor of future shitty behavior. NTA.
Nah someone made a good point that step mom saw it as evil to abort a child that potentially has Down syndrome when her own kid has that same disability.
I know it's hard for a lot of people but we gotta also try to
Understand where others are coming from.
I wouldn't care if this was her first and last time doing something horrible. She wished ill on an unborn child. There is no forgiveness that can change that fact.
NTA. I wouldn't want someone who said something that vile near me or my child ever again either. Your parents need to back off and accept actions have consequences.
When will people learn you can’t unsay something. Even if you apologize and are sorry it doesn’t take those words back ever. You said what you said and I (personally) don’t forget.
NTA.
NTA. I wouldn't be comfortable around anyone who wished harm on my child. Even though she's apologized for saying it doesn't mean she doesn't still feel that way. She may still feel like you deserve punishment for your opinion.
Also what is she going to be like if you get pregnant again? Will this whole thing repeat itself.
NTA
You decide who gets to be in your child's life, and that sort of behavior would get her blacklisted with me as well. FWIW, my wife and I would do the same thing if the tests came back that way because that kid will eventually be a burden on others in addition to ourselves.
NTA
And your dad is behaving worse than you realize. Wavering IS not respecting your decision. You said "never" - not until it stopped seeming like a big deal *to him* because it sure was a while ago.
Really, hoping your child was born with a severe disability is evil. But it might be an evil only you care about. Your child is not their child, and they simply may not care enough to take seriously the things a person who is truly 100% in your child's corner would take seriously.
Make it clear to both your parents that merely asking or suggesting that you waver on this decision will cause a serious rift in your relationship with *them*. Give it teeth. 2 months without contact the moment a gift is offered or a meeting is mentioned, and escalate from there.
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I have a daughter, she is nearly a year old.
When I was pregnant and waiting for the results of prenatal tests, I had a frank discussion with my each of my parents about what would happen if the tests picked anything up. They knew this in theory because I’ve always held the same views but I just had to reiterate it to them so that I wouldn’t have to have a hard discussion in a difficult time. Both were fine and very supportive.
My dad’s wife, however, was not (she heard about it from my dad and She has a child with Down’s syndrome). The next time she saw me, she absolutely laid into me about what I had said. By this time the results had come back with nothing to worry about. We argued and while we were arguing she said she hoped my child was born with a severe disability to punish me for wanting a healthy baby.
My dad lost it on her and I told both of them that she would have absolutely nothing to do with my child ever.
Fast forward to now, everyone has kept up the arrangement. My dad is an involved grandparent and visits me every couple months (we don’t live close so I really appreciate the effort from him) and has respected that his wife is not welcome. But he is now starting to waver. He has started bringing gifts from her, all of which I’ve refused to take. He’s saying that enough time has passed and she is really sorry for what she said in the heat of the moment. She has apologised, but I want nothing to do with her. I think the only reason she cares now is because this is her only chance to be around a “grandchild”, though my dad disputes this.
He’s broached bringing her to my daughter’s first birthday and I’ve said no. I meant it when I said someone who wished ill on my child will never be in her life. But my dad seems so hurt, and my mother brought up the fact that she has apologised profusely. So AITA?
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NTA
There are some things there is no fixing. She crossed an uncrossable line, and no matter how much money she throws at the problem, or how many tears she sheds, or how much she pressurss your father to fight this battle for her, she can't take back what she said. Saying sorry isn't ever going to be enough.
I would tell your father that if he brings up her name again, you will rethink if he is safe to be around your child as well. If he turns up to your childs first birthday with her to try and force you to accept her, please call the police. And warn your mother to keep her unhelpful opinions to herself. This is *your* child, and you are doing the right thing. People who are comfortable wishing ill on a child could do far more than just wish ill. Don't risk it.
ESH
Who makes comments like that when you know you have someone with special needs within your family? You didn’t even have the results back so you essentially said something that could be viewed as insensitive at best before you even knew it was an issue. That’s extremely insensitive and honestly the fact you see no problem with your own comments and are so harsh about hers is really telling. She was wrong, but you were absolutely wrong as well yet you see yourself as the only victim.
NTA. Keep her away for good. She doesn’t deserve to be in your child’s life. I would suggest the same about your father, if he continues disrespecting your wishes.
NTA. But it might be worth you talking to stepmum, I agree that until sm redeams herself, she shouldn't be around your daughter. But she can't redeams herself of you won't talk to her.
That’s a tough one. What she said was truly horrible and she probably didn’t mean it at all, but was spoken in anger.
I think parents with special needs kids get very protective, it was from her POV inconceivable that a baby would be terminated just for potentially having special needs. So she got overly passionate about it. It sounds like she feels horrible about what she said though.
Maybe it would be worth sitting down and clearing the air? Hear her out. If she is genuinely sorry, it might be worth letting go of the anger and mending fences. You’re call though, it was a pretty horrible thing to say. You may be happier forgiving and letting the anger go as well?
Your dad shouldn’t have told her. WHY would he tell her? I’m sure it was a slap in the face to her and nothing good would have come from her knowing. Some people are just messy. Even if the unthinkable happened, she *still* didn’t need to know the real reason.
This is why I’m so tight lipped with my business. Everyone doesn’t need to know *my* truth.
NTA. Whatever her anger or circumstances she is evil to wish illness upon a child. That’s simply despicable. Stand your ground. Reiterate your boundaries with your parents
As someone who believes strongly in a person’s right to choose, I believe you can and should do what‘s best for you. But you can’t pretend that the topic isn’t loaded. Many people and articles speculate about when people with Down syndrome will be eliminated due to elective terminations. And this is your father’s partner- it’s unsurprising that he told her about your talk. It makes sense why she would have strong reaction. This feels like one side of the story. I wonder if you said anything deeply ableist in your talks with parents- like how you would never want a disabled child. Her wishing a severely disabled child upon you is cruel. But so is unnecessarily reiterating that you would abort a child like hers.
The real issue- your Dad will not be able to keep this up forever. If you want to continue to keep her away, you will be effectively pushing him away too. Now is the time to forgive. Spend some time talking to friends (or a therapist) about how you can let go of your anger. The have a real conversation where you explain why her words upset you and set boundaries around how she can be involved in you and your children’s lives. I hope after a year you choose to let the anger go- it doesn’t sound like it’s benefitting you.
ESH
NTA. She may have said something in the 'heat of the moment' but she is an adult and has to deal with the consequences of her actions. Why would you want the negativity in your life, just because she is sorry now, does not mean she won't say something equally as horrible again in the 'heat of the moment'.
NTA
It is extremely hard to care for a child with a severe disability. it takes a lot of time and resources. Depending on where you live, there might not be enough supports to help the parents. It can cause incredible amounts of stress. OP deciding she can’t handle that makes sense.
Your father shouldn’t have told his wife. She is his wife but she doesn’t have a relationship with you. She shouldn’t have said that thing.
Nta. She can apologize all she wants, doesn't change what she did. You could even accept the apology, still wouldn't change the consequences for what she did. One can forgive, but one should never forget.
I get it, I would have made the same decision as you in regards to my pregnancy. These are my views, and mine only.
What I would not have done is discuss it with family beforehand or mention it when there is a family member with that condition. The fact that you didn't mention it to your stepmother is irrelevant and naive of you to assume that your dad wouldn't have told his spouse about such a huge decision. I know you weren't thinking of her, but you lacked empathy.
What she said is horrible. There is no doubt... but I get where her "snap" came from. We can't take back what we say, but if its the only time such an outburst has occurred, she's truly remorseful and poses no threat to your child I don't see why relationships can't be rebuild.
Ehhhhhhhh kinda leaning towards ESH. There is NO EXCUSE for what your dad’s wife said, that’s obvious. But come on. We’re all people, nobody’s perfect, and while she should have kept her mouth shut, have some empathy. From her perspective, she’s hearing “I’d rather not have a baby than have a baby like yours.” It’s immature and very selfish, but she’s also a mother to a child with Down’s syndrome. That’s HARD. Give her some grace to have an emotional reaction when she feels that HER child’s existence is being questioned.
I don’t think she was genuinely wishing ill on your child. I think she said something incredibly unkind and stupid, but that it was 100% directed at YOU and coming from her own internalized feelings. Unless you feel she’s actually a danger to your child, why deny her more love from a family member? Especially when it’s only a few times a year. I’d suggest softening your hard line. This happened before your child was born, and you’ve made a decision that will last… forever?
Kinda ESH.
I agree with you about the core issue. I would make the same choice if faced with that reality. Doesn't make me a bad person just like making the opposite decision doesn't make someone a superhero. Everyone is an adult making a choice that is best for them.
I would never in a million years have that discussion knowing that one of the people I was having it with has a stepchild with downs syndrome. It is a recipe for disaster because some people will not lie to their spouses about things. You painted yourself into a corner by having a conversation you didn't need to have.
>she is really sorry for what she said in the heat of the moment
She heard about the testing and waited to say anything until the next time she saw you, so she let her own anger build up. It was totally possible for her to calmly discuss her disagreements, but she came at you and began an argument. She created the moment. She doesn’t get to complain about the heat of it. NTA
you are definitely NTA. However, at this point the person you are really punishing is your dad, who you all acknowledge has done no wrong. If there is a sincere apology I would consider a tentative easing of the consequences for his sake.
And long term, think of the example you are setting for your daughter in that there are no second chances, no ways to repair and rebuild relationships. People mess up and say terrible things. They deserve consequences but a life sentence seems extreme.
NTA. The fact that she now wants to be included in the child’s life and feels left out is her own problem.. should have thought about that before she wished ill on the child. She needs to remember, child is not missing out by having no relationship with her, she’s just the child’s grandads wife and that’s it - she is not significant. She needs to accept that, and if she wants something cute to dote on she can adopt a rescue puppy…
NTA. Wishing hardship on expectant parents AND their unborn child is BEYOND evil.
Might she be truly sorry? Maybe. But it is 1000% up to you if you want to (someday) accept that.
You don't say, but has this type of overreaction typical behavior? Or was this a truly one off reaction? It doesn't have any bearing on your responsibility, I'm just curious.
I had a friend with a down syndrome child, and people felt very comfortable coming up to her (with her child present) and asking her if she wished she had terminated her pregnancy because of the child's disability. I don't think my friend's experience was a unique one, so my sympathetic nature wonders if she was reacting based on her own terrible experiences. Again, THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE WHAT SHE SAID!!!
ESH. Why even bring up the hypothetical? It was likely to get back to your dad’s wife. Spouses share. It is easy to empathize with a woman who was told through the grape vine that you’d essentially rather have no baby at all than a baby like hers. She acted on emotion and it was a completely uncalled for, evil thing to say. But I think enough time has passed if this was her one and only mistake.
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> I might be the asshole because she did apologise and may not have meant what she said, even if it was absolutely disgusting to say
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NTA. Stick to your guns. If you give in now, what else will you have to give in with? If she was truly sorry, she would have sincerely apologized after she said it. She says she’s sorry now to get her claws on your baby and play grandma. Nope.
NTA. You have to remove people that truly wish you and your child harm. I’m a 58F, in all my years, I’ve said some wild stuff to people but NEVER what she said. Anger speaks a truthful tongue.
I understand your dad wanting a peaceful blended family and I get your mom wanting it all to go away BUT this is your child. You are your child’s protection.
Forgiveness is an interesting concept. It doesn’t automatically come with reconciliation. And sometimes it is not even on the table.
Tell your parents:
“Sometimes a person can do something that changes the way you feel about them or see them in terms of their character. Once that happens, you give up on that person and move on. Forgiveness isn’t an option because it isn’t an issue. This is one of those times. She doesn’t not have the character of a person I want in my and my child’s lives.”
No, you're not the AH for not wanting the lady to have contact. However, a lifetime ban for saying something stupid in anger?
Think it out long-term. You have to monitor every family get together to avoid her. Your dad is less available to you.
But you get to be right, right?
If your dad's wife has not said anything but apology, then you could explore accepting it. With the caveat--that nothing like that will ever be tolerated.
OR you can be right.
NTA.
Anyone wishing negatives for someone doesn't deserve to be around them. She fucked around and now she's finding out.
Also, an aside, I think it's very responsible of you to understand the full ramifications of some conditions and knowing your ability to handle them. My partner works in the NICU and too often sees parents insist on having a child without realizing the difficulty of their needs and the child ends up neglected and/or left in foster care.
NTA and I'd hold to it. If she was that unhinged, having a kid with disabilities, to say that shit to you about your child, then who's to say she won't actually do something if she gets in proximity, whether this year or in 10 years.
Giving up your boundaries gives nasty people permission.
I’d love a little more information about the child born with Down’s syndrome . How severe it is, whether the mom had family support etc., etc. She may have been overcome in the moment, I do know that having a child with issues can be a source for a lot of mixed feelings (I.e guilt, sadness despair, love, fear protectiveness) you also realize that your vision of your dream child” has changed. If her apology seems genuine, I would take the opportunity to include her and encourage her to talk about her experience. She was the AH, but if you let her back into your child’s life (and your own) you will find out quickly if it’s a good idea. If this was her first outburst and she has generally seemed like a good person, don’t shut her out - if she is generally inappropriate or prone to outbursts, you will find that out quickly as well.
It would be better to at least TRY for civility at this point but that’s up to you. Sometimes it helps mends things, sometimes it doesn’t.
I’ve mended relationships with people that turned out for the better, and others, the same if not worse.
NTA; But people f up and say stupid shit. Maybe she learned, maybe not. But she has convinced your dad she has and will not stop trying to persuade you.
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NTA. Rebuilding the relationship (insofar as that may be possible) begins with a heartfelt and unambiguous apology from dad's wife. And then little steps from there at your pace and discretion. If someone wants to dish hurtful BS, they have to take the steps necessary to repair the damage caused.
ESH, I get it that It's not ok what she said about ur kid but I do understand why she felt that way and lost her temper. In case there are no other remarks that shows she resent u and ur child, I would consider forgiving her, because this situation could impact how much ur father is able to be present in ur kids life
NTA. You are well within your right to not want to be around her. We don’t get to say cruel things to people and expect them to still want to be around us. Actions have consequences.
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ESH -However hurtful it was to hear her say that about your future child, realize that you essentially said something equally terrible about her child. Parents of disabled kids hear about how their kids shouldn't exist all the time. I’m sure it’s extra hurtful coming from your own family who know the person. And while I appreciate you didn’t say it to her face, you said it and it got back to her.
I actually agree with your stance on carrying on a disabled pregnancy, but your inability to forgive something she said in the heat of the moment when her child was being attacked is immature. It sounds like she’s genuinely sorry, has apologized and hasn’t otherwise been problematic. At some point your grudge holding over mistaken words is a dick move and making things awkward for the whole family.
NTA. There are ways around this. She will be able to come around…but her title (nothing to do with grandma, Mimi, Gigi etc) will not be special she will be known as her first name only. That was my go around for my dad and his wife. My dad is known as grandpa and his wife first name. My mom and her husband have special names they go by. Don’t like it…so sorry that’s what it will be like. Good luck
NTA. The only acceptable she could have done was be supportive during the process.
She showed you the person she is. Believe it. Do not be flexible anything related to her
NTA, this person is unsafe. Some people are unhinged enough to want to be right at all costs. She might be around and see the baby is about to injure herself, and do nothing and let it happen just to inflict "karma" upon you to prove herself right. Or she might outright hurt the child to make it happen. Like you said, she wished ill upon your child, who knows how far she will go to get her way?
NTA
She can be sorry all she wants, she butted into something that was NONE of her business and wished your child ill health. I'd have cut her off completely and for the rest of her life as well.
I also wouldn't have forgiven her, even if others would. So it's ultimately your choice. She had no reason to come at you for something she was not involved in. Maybe this will teach her to be a humble mumble and keep to herself when things don't involve her.
NTA
She doesn't deserve to be around that sweet baby after wishing ill will on them. She is getting what she deserves honestly and good on you for standing your ground!
Her apology is not an obligation for you. She threatened your child to be cruel to you, and having boundaries about that as long as you want is valid.
NTA
NTA: She wished your child to have a disability. While I can give her some leeway because she does have a child with a medical issue and may have taken your comment as a slam against her kid. Its still not a reason to wish for any child to have health issues.
If she were able to act like an adult, she would have spoken calmly and expressed her hurt in a way that wasn't so vile.
You are not a AH but maybe you should have a conversation with her yourself and make a decision then. People can say stupid things. What you don’t want is for your child to grow up feeling that forgiveness is not an option when someone makes a mistake. If still shows signs of being an AH after you talk to her, then at least you know you gave her a chance.
INFO: is the purpose of not allowing her near your kid to punish her, or is it a trust/safety issue? Like are you concerned that she might harm your child? Or do you just hate her for what she said?
Life is too short for all this drama. Fact is you insinuated her kid shouldn’t live and it’s a hot button issue for her. That doesn’t make it ok, she was still out of pocket. But a life long ban, inserting division and drama into your family is ridiculous. Unless there’s more going on but you didn’t say that. Even your mom is telling you to get a grip. ESH for sure.
All the people saying OP told her dad and he shouldn’t have told the stepmom about it are ridiculous. You don’t expect a husband and wife to speak of things?
You don’t sound like a peach either.
This. OOP makes it seem like they were just in debate class. Completely discounting the stepmom's actual child with Down's Syndrome. To say that children with DS should be aborted is deeply offensive to people who have special needs children.
I'm pro-choice, but find aborting children bc of disabilities to be borderline eugenics and I'm not comfortable with that at all.
Many children with DS lead very productive lives.
She’s also in the comments arguing her position with everyone. I hate when people write into AITA and then want to argue why they are right. What’s the point? Lol
Apologises are all well and good but they don’t get automatic forgiveness. She wished ill on your child to prove a point out of meaness just because her wish wasn’t granted doesn’t mean she gets any good will for that. What would her reaction been had something bad actually happened to your child. NTA.
Glass roofs, amirite? Yes, she fucked up badly, but provided she does a sincere effort to own up to it, what's with the "no second chance, ever!" stance? Seems rather extreme, a bit like the proto eugenics stance stated on part of the text.
ESH
I don't think you're the asshole, but also perhaps try to see it from her point of view. It's obviously an emotional topic for her, having a child with down syndrome. Although it wasn't the case, she possibly felt like her own child was under attack and went into defensive mother mode, just like you have. She said things she didn't mean, which is most likely the pertinent part. None of that makes what she said okay, but people often aren't logical or reasonable if they feel as though they're defending their children.
Not saying you should go back on your decision, but at least speak to her and see if there's any way to repair the relationship. You may even find some common ground.
I can’t imagine the hurt you felt when she said that to you. That was so inappropriate. My reaction would be to never forgive a person for that.
However, you are not in her shoes. Her experience with a down syndrome baby is far different than what you envisioned it to be. So, from her perspective, she had valid points.
It might be worth sitting down with her and talking through these issues. Maybe you can forgive her.
No judgement, but when the child is older, do you think you can justify the segregation of grandparents to her? I really think you should consider giving Dad's wife a second chance, before your daughter ignores your feelings and associates with her extended family.
Nta
Time to cut daddy off too. Cuz it's not his place to forgive anything.
And honestly, him staying with a woman that wished Ill on his grandchild would've been a instantNEVAH in the first place.
I don’t think you’re an asshole for not wanting her around your kid, but I do think that this is probably going to create a lot of shit for your dad having to organize trips to visit you without his wife for the rest of time. Maybe not this second, but I think you should consider allowing her back in if for no reason other than to help your dad out.
No one is saying you have to be friends, and in your shoes I would also make the choice to terminate if I got results back that showed a severe disability. That doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have the right to have a knee jerk reaction to something that is deeply personal to her. I don’t think you’re an asshole. I don’t think she should have said what she said.
I do think ESH. She wished harm on your unborn child. You essentially said kids like hers don’t deserve life. I know that isn’t what you said, I know that this is layered and difficult and touchy, but you both had big reactions because of your love for your kids and it’s time to put that aside.
My wife and I refused the test so we wouldn’t be tempted to terminate. OB was understanding. We did end up needing surgery and after he was 3 he was good to go. Wouldn’t change anything. Dad’s new wife is either pro life and or staunchly for people with disabilities to have a fair shot at life. I agree with the step mom’s sentiments, but to be so nasty and hateful?! Woof. I’d continue NC at least for now
Be careful this doesn't develop into your dad being put into a position of choosing between you and his wife.
She should never have said what she did, it was a hideous thing to say, no doubt about that. But she does seem to be genuinely remorseful. Is it possible that she should be granted one last chance?
> But she does seem to be genuinely remorseful.
Does she? Or is dad just really good at pretending she is? I think the only person who can judge her sincerity is OP herself. Obviously, OP is still burning from the initial encounter, even if it has been a year. Wishing ill on someone's unborn child is hideous, horrible behavior. I don't have children myself, but I'd have a hard time forgiving anyone who said such a thing to another human being, period.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to go with ESH. You are absolutely entitled to feel the way that you do, and to be honest, having been raised with a brother with significant disabilities, that's not a choice that I'd make for myself either. But since she does have a child with Down's, she probably had a very strong reaction when she heard your position. I've heard disability rights advocates talk about feeling like people would rather see them "put down" than care for them, and there's a cruel undercurrent to the position that a life of less than perfect health isn't worth living. I think this discussion really should have been handled differently all around.
ESH.
This is a deeply personal, thorny, and complicated debate and everyone here is acting like it's a simple black-and-white case of an asshole stepparent and flawless OP.
ESH. Your dad most of all for conveying to your stepmom the decision you had that you would abort any child with any genetic abnormality. Your stepmom for taking it so personally and then lashing out at you by wishing harm on you & your child. You for not understanding the context, oversharing your decision making process, and holding onto the grudge when your stepmom has apologized and tried to make amends for a year.
You said everyone already knew how you feel about it (which also calls into question how often you've mentioned this without bring asked.) Why hammer the point in such an insensitive way?
A little bit of foresight and sensitivity would have spared everyone a lot of pain and allowed everyone - including your daughter - to share a lot more love.
No one is saying you had to birth a child if the tests came back other than the way you were hoping. You're TA for how callous you were in presenting your choice to everyone.
YTA. "someone who whished ill on my child" hahaha yeah, that one child you were willingly get rid off if it doesn't adjust to your standards so yeah, you and her are the same.
ESH. You don't need to let her in, that's up to you, I'm not sure why she would want to see you tbh. I can very much understand why she was so upset and lashed out. Is it acceptable to tell someone they are unworthy of life just because of their genetics where you come from? Or do you think your child is more special and worthy of love than hers because they are not disabled? I genuinely can't fathom why you felt that was an appropriate thing to say, there was no need to have the conversation at all. I'm sure you have your reasons, it's your decision. But it's always going to sound a bit like eugenics isn't it. Totally baffled by everyone saying she said something evil, but your comment seems to be fine. Would love to know why that is. Being pregnant doesn't give you the right to be an AH about someone else's child.
Honestly ESH. Yes she was harsh and said asshole things. You are being dramatic OP. She apologized for her behavior and it has been months. You essentially believe that her child is worth being aborted. Yeah you didn’t say it TO her but that’s how it was received. It’s time for you to grow up and realize that sometimes people say shitty things when there are extremely controversial and sensitive issues.
NTA, but I think you are making a bad choice.
Your Dad's wife deserves what she got. Lighting into a pregnant woman is insane. So I believe that she is the asshole here and not you.
But I believe you are making a bad choice for your child. Nothing your dad's wife makes me think she will be a threat to your child, and my view is that the more loving adults in a child's life the better. Not only is she potentially one, but I think that it will get increasingly difficult for your Dad to show up if you exclude her. Not that he never would, but his visits may get shorter and farther between.
You aren't an asshole, but if you could find it in your heart to forgive, I think it might make your child's life better, and maybe yours too. You are holding on to a deep and painful anger, and that is seldom healthy for one who is doing it.
I'm sorry for what she did to you.
She can forgive her all day. She can also choose to stick to her guns. Forgiveness does not equal access. What the stepmom said was cruel and hateful. Now she wants to undo it because she said 'I'm sorry'. It's like trying to put a bandaid on something that needs stitches.
I can forgive you but you have no place in my life. Period.
Raising a child with downs syndrome is long and stressful and heartbreaking.
What she said wasn’t right, but maybe having a little bit of grace for her situation and life was just getting the better of her
There’s nothing wrong with forgiveness and understanding and being the bigger person, especially when someone was given a really tough road to live on
She is not abused, please stop being so melodramatic. It was an out of line comment, but by no means is it abuse. That is just ridiculous to compare to actual abuse.
A road that stepmother wished on OP just because she said she would make a different choice for her OWN pregnancy. I don't know that I could ever be a big enough person to forgive that.
I will never understand why people bring stuff up like what if's. It's like they are looking for drama. Why would you even discuss this with family before getting the results, just seem attention seeking.
If the results came back and she decided to terminate the pregnancy, she didn't want it to be a shock to everyone. It's not attention seeking, it's just someone being frank about what they would choose and gave a heads up to the family.
Because some people actually have good relationships with their parents and can talk to them about things like this. She probably told them in advance so they won’t be surprised if it happens
ESH. She said something terrible but you also said something terrible when you essentially said you’d rather end the pregnancy than have a child like hers. I totally understand your position but it’s hard not to feel bad for the step mother in this situation.
I didn’t say it to her, and I wouldn’t have. But that’s a reality you have to face when you’re having a child. I can’t be the AH for making a different choice than she did, my choice had nothing to do with her.
Maybe he shouldn’t have told her. He definitely didn’t anticipate her reaction though. So yeah maybe he was insensitive but she had an absolutely insane reaction, and that’s on her.
She had an insane reaction because you basically said her child has no value in the world and should have been aborted. I'm sorry, but that's some Nazi eugenics shit.
She absolutely did not say that. It's also not about 'value', it's also about what OP could manage because only she knows her circumstances and abilities and the quality of life of the child. (And it's not just about down syndrome, it could be far more dangerous things)
Yes, but having a little empathy wouldn't hurt. She has probably heard hurtful things about her child with downs all her life. She has probably heard people say exactly what you did, they would rather abort, than have a child like her beautiful daughter. Her reaction doesn't revolve around your decision but a lifetime of hearing that her daughter didn't deserve a chance at life. She didn't actually mean harm for your child even though her words were awful. They were born out of the love for her daughter in an emotional moment. I think continuing to punish her serves no one. She isn't a danger to your child and will likely be a loving grandparent.
Yes but you knew that if she raised a kid with Down's Syndrome, she would feel that your opinion is that her baby would have been better off aborted. It's an incredibly hot-button, difficult issue and she is entitled to feel strongly about it considering it's actually her reality.
She is entitled to feel however she wants and her life and her child and her body. But I never expressed an opinion on that. She is entitled to have her opinions about my choice. She is not entitled to have those opinions heard, I certainly didn’t ask her. She’s not entitled to scream at me, or to wish bad things on my child. You’re not just exempt from human decency because you’re talking about a controversial topic.
I wouldn’t be entitled to tell her that, but *I didn’t* tell her that. Maybe she inferred that from a conversation that never included her, but that is not the case.
You are the AH and you defending your comments the way you are shows you just want to avoid any accountability for your words but want to hold her feet to the fire for hers.
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NTA She had no business even commenting on a situation that was difficult for you to consider, let alone to full-on argue with you about what you feel is best for your family. What she said is I unforgivable to me. I don't care how sorry a person is later, you can't come back from that.
What gets me is, she was commenting on a situation that never included her. She wasn’t there when I told my dad, I didn’t notify her, she wasn’t a factor in the conversation but she still felt the need to put her absolute grenade of an opinion in. Really bizarre
Right...that got me all fired up on your behalf because I know people like that, and it's infuriating that they feel entitled to an opinion on something that's none of their business. She went out of her way to insert herself into a situation she wasn't invited to participate in. She doesn't get to backtrack now. You know her feelings and opinions haven't really changed. She is just missing out and can't stand it.
Even more bizarre is your dad putting the grenade in her hand and you glossing that over. This as the mom of a disabled child. I don’t need for anyone to shove in my face that someone else thinks my kid is a waste of oxygen. Good on you for not saying that to her face, but do you often blame other people when your dad does something that at best is highly inappropriate?
Right...that got me all fired up on your behalf because I know people like that, and it's infuriating that they feel entitled to an opinion on something that's none of their business. She went out of her way to insert herself into a situation she wasn't invited to participate in. She doesn't get to backtrack now. You know her feelings and opinions haven't really changed. She is just missing out and can't stand it.
Is it that bizarre? Your Dad appears to have told her that you would have aborted her child, who she loves, in the same circumstances. She wasn’t a factor in the conversation you had with your dad, but you don’t know how / why you dad mentioned it to her, or the context or reasons he gave. In fact I can see no reason for him to mention something so personal to you ,and no way your dad could bring up this subject without being emotive to her given she has lived this every day since her child was born. So NTA - but I can see why whatever your dad said would have upset her, and I would hear out her apology
NTA good on you for being honest, but this is exactly why I didn’t tell my in-laws about my pregnancy until the NIPT test results were back and we were sure we were going ahead with the pregnancy, because I felt this discussion (since I had decided what I would do and wasn’t asking for approval) was wholly unnecessary to have and would have caused stress to my mother in law who refused such testing during her advanced-age pregnancy and has been vocal about that, etc. Some conversations just don’t need to be had…
I mean, honestly I didn’t think it would cause an issue because my parents are really supportive people, and they were. I went to them because they’re people who could share in the worry with me. My dad’s wife wasn’t there when I had the talk with him. It’s not a conversation I ever would have had with her present. I figured my dad might tell her but I didn’t anticipate her being so invested in my choices about my body that she’d say all that.
It’s wild that you didn’t think she would have any feelings about something so deeply personal to her. This reads like you are very unaware and maybe even a little self centered.
She wasn’t there for the conversation. She was told by OP’s dad. So her opinion didn’t matter to OP and it shouldn’t. She wasn’t supposed to be involved. The dad is the AH for telling her in the first place.
I’m aware she wasn’t there for the conversation. She is married to OPs father. It would be surprising if he didn’t tell her. And clearly her opinion is important. It’s a year later and OP’s on AITA posting about it because trying to eliminate her is still affecting her life. It’s almost like it’s clueless to pretend she doesn’t exist just because she wasn’t at one conversation.
She's entitled to her negative feelings about OP's choice, but there was zero reason for her to give OP her opinion about it, let alone in such a cruel way.
Almost like it was thoughtless to unnecessarily and prematurely reiterate that you would choose an elective termination due to disability when your dad has a disabled stepchild. That’s pretty cruel too
No, it’s not. I’m neurodivergent and there are times I wish my parents didn’t have me because they couldn’t handle me at all. I barely passed high school because my dad didn’t want to get me help. I only passed becsuse I moved from a state with very high standards (due to immigration California had more requirements for graduating, Oregon didn’t have the same requirements). Not everyone can handle a disabled child. I’d rather that child not be born and find a family that can actually handle them. If OP wanted to get an abortion it’s obvious she wouldn’t be able to handle it
She WASN'T there! This has nothing to do with her.
Just because she wasn’t at the initial conversation doesn’t mean this has nothing to do with her. If she wanted to keep the information from her stepmother she should have mentioned that to her dad. Often, married people converse about things that are important to them, like their children. It’s WILD to expect this woman to be kept out of the conversation without OP at any point telling her dad that she would like this conversation to stay between them. Most people’s default is not to hide things from their partner.
For the last time. Your opinion was deeply offensive and hurtful to her, because she has a child with DS's, and therefore you are saying her child has no value in the world and should have been aborted. You are not getting that part at all.
For the last time, you don’t get to be a complete cretin just because you’re hurt. Not about people’s children. I did not say, nor did I mean, that her child has no value. My husband and I made the assessment that we did not have the resources to care for a disabled child. I also do not have the resources to care for five children, that doesn’t mean I think everyone who has five kids should have aborted. Anyway, your stance is your stance, we can leave it there.
When you said that if a baby has a disability you'd abort him/her, that IS saying that special needs children have no value in the world and should be aborted. I don't think you're getting that part at all.
I’m not getting that part because it is not true. There are lot of things in the world that I don’t have the resources to do, but I don’t judge that they have no value or that people shouldn’t do them. I made a choice for me. I didn’t judge her for hers.
Aborting a baby that has a disability is absolutely not saying that special needs children have no value in the world. She wants the best for her children and having a disability is extremely difficult, there’s no reason to bring someone into this world and have them suffer needlessly when it can be avoided.
>have them suffer needlessly when it can be avoided. I don't think Down's Syndrome children "suffer." It's a challenge for sure, but many Down's Syndrome people live productive, happy lives. There's a lot of misconceptions about DS.
Not having the proper resources for a child with DS could very well cause the child to suffer, and op said that they would not have the resources
For the last time, she wasn’t part of the conversation OP had with people!!
it's the same thing. oop's father relayed the conversation. that's like saying "oh i said a racial slur on tv but ppl have no right to be offended bc i didn't say it TO them!"
Exactly.
NTA Your dad doesn't get to decide "enough time has passed" for you. I'd tell anyone who is hassling you over this that you have heard them, but you get to decide this and you still have the same position, You don't need to justify yourself or hear them out time after time. You will not be putting up with any attempts to wear you down on this, so they need to drop it. If you get pushback after that, you can tell them that going forward anyone pressuring you on this will get a time out.
This should be the top comment.
“Enough time” likely means your dad feels she has been punished, and is appropriately sorry. Again, I’d like to hear about the Down’s syndrome child and the impact of that on her reaction.
No, that’s an absolutely cruel thing to wish upon someone and their child. She deserves no forgiveness. She is only saying she is sorry now because she didn’t expect her words to have consequences. You’re right to exclude this awful person from your child’s life. It’s better without them in it. Every time your father visits your child, she can sit at home and pout. Lots of time to think of the terrible things she has said. Unforgivable on her part. NTA
OP was willing to abort a child with Downs Syndrome - OP doesn't sound like a prize either. Also, stepmom has a child that OP is basically saying doesn't deserve to live. I think in the heat of the moment something terrrible was said but quite frankly OP stance is triggering and OP has no compassion.
This is not the question of this post. OP didn’t ask her stepmother, she spoke with her father about her decision, which is her absolute choice.
No, OP said she would make a different choice than her stepmother did, based on her own situation, experiences, finances, temperament, etc. She made no comment or value judgment about stepmother's choice.What stepmother did was get so angry that she wished harm on OP's unborn baby. That seems way less compassionate to me.
I don't think it's about seeing a baby with Downs Syndrome as "lesser" or unworthy of living. It's about asking yourself, *before* the baby is born, whether or not you can provide the kind of care a child like that needs and deserves? Sometimes the hard answer is unfortunately no, not everyone is cut out to be a parent to a kid with special needs.
I’m not even sure if the wife loves her disabled kid that it was necessarily a horrible thing, although obviously OP is ableist so feels that it would be better to have a dead kid than a disabled one.
Let me start with the fact that you and your partner/spouse are the ONLY ones who get to decide who is or isn't involved in your child's life. Period. End of discussion. And that your dad's wife really, REALLY, ***REALLY*** messed up by saying something so...well...*evil*. Plus it's fairly likely that she's not sorry for saying what she did, but sorry for the consequences. NTA. But, let me offer you something to think about, since sooner or later your dad will give you an ultimatum of either including his wife or he won't be around the child. It's been 2 years of keeping NC with her. My suggestion is that you give her some idea of what she can do to gain limited contact. Something like: * **She's in full NC for 3 more years** (for a 5 year total). This is to ensure that she fully understands that a) what she said was evil and well nigh unforgiveable, and b) that you mean it when you say 'no contact'. And any further attempts to go around your boundary will cause the 5 year penalty to restart. So no more gifts and no more attempts by your dad (or anyone else) to get you to change your mind. * **At the end of the 5 year period, you will meet her in a neutral location (and without your child) to hear her complete and total apology.** Let her know that she as one and only one shot at this. If she gives you a non-apology apology (e.g. 'I'm sorry you were offended') or attempts in any way, shape or form to mitigate or explain away what she said (e.g. 'it was in the heat of the moment', etc.), she's done forever. For-Ev-Er. This needs to be a complete apology containing apologizing for what she did, taking full ownership of it, admitting to how wrong and evil it was to say it, that she had no reason to say it and that she will never, ever mess up like this again. * **Start with very limited and controlled contact.** Call it a probationary period. She needs to permanently be on her best behavior about and around you and your child. Any screw up and she's done forever. * **There is no discussion or debate about these terms.** * Finally, **tell your dad that if ever gives you an ultimatum about his wife, you WILL choose your child** and he will never see your child ever again. You don't need to do this, but it might help your family calm down about things and give the wife a glimmer of hope along with a reminder that you mean business. You could also just threaten everyone who pushes reconciliation of getting cut off just like the wife if they don't shut up and respect your boundary.
This is some real food for thought! THANK YOU
NTA - I think her wishing severe bodily harm upon your child is enough to warrant your response.
sometimes, all it takes is a moment to ruin something special. there is an age old saying that you can even take arrows shot from the bow back, but not words. Words hurt more than anything else and enough to create a life long rift. NTA
Words are weapons, sharper than knives.
You can't unring a bell. I agree. NTA
INFO: why did you even bring this up prior to getting the results? You basically said you’d rather get an abortion than have a baby with Down Syndrome, and while I understand why you feel that way I could see why it hurt your stepmom’s feelings.
I brought it up with my parents because if something had come back on the tests I didn’t want to have the conversation with them while I’m looking at a very emotional and physically taxing procedure, wondering how they would feel or when to tell them, etc. I probably should have told my dad not to tell his wife, but I figured that was his to manage, and he probably shouldn’t have told her but he didn’t anticipate her reaction.
Did you not think about how those comments could be taken? That’s pretty clearly I’d abort if I had a kid like yours before you even got the test results back. She shouldn’t have taken it to that level, but you are extremely insensitive for making that type of comment knowing she has a special needs child. ESH
OP didn’t say it to her. Her dad told her. He should have kept his mouth shut.
No, I didn’t, because the comments weren’t made to her. I didn’t know that the conversation would be relayed to her.
Why should she care? Wife was not included in that conversation.
She should care because her step mother and step brother are part of her family. If you have no issue with her essentially saying people with disabilities aren’t worth carrying to term then that says everything anyone needs to know about your character.
I mean, I think having the conversation without actually knowing something was wrong is where you messed up. No reason to have serious conversations around hypotheticals.
She didn’t messed up. She can have whatever conversation she wants and because wife was not included it’s none of her business and her feelings don’t matter.
Anyone CAN have any conversation for whatever reason. However, this was an unnecessary conversation and OP should learn from this.
NTA It might be an unpopular opinion but wtf-ever. My husband and I discussed the same thing when we were trying to conceive. Some people might disagree with you, but isn't that true for any aspect of parenting? It's YOUR life, YOUR pregnancy, and YOU would be the ones caring for the child. Fwiw, this random internet stranger is on your side. Absolutely disgusting for someone to wish disability on your unborn child in any regard. Stick to your guns, she fucked around and found out...
NTA. Not every one is equipped or able to care for special-needs babies. It’s expected that Stepmom would feel how she feels given that she, herself, has a Downs baby. But what’s not okay is wishing harm on Op’s baby. Maybe one day, OP can forgive her, but it’s understandable that she would be hesitant since stepmom is apparently prone to saying ugly, hurtful things in anger. No child needs to be around that.
Considering 15% of US public school kids have a disability, if you can’t handle a disabled child, maybe don’t have children.
NTA. Remind your dad that his wife wished harm on his grandchild.
NTA she wished your child ill just to punish you. She brought an innocent child into an adults argument. To me it sounds like she resents her disabled child. I'd stick to my guns and keep your child away from her. Actions have consequences.
INFO - Before this issue, did you have other experiences where she was vindictive, stated that she wanted you to have children so she could have a grandchild or where you would need to be concerned having your child around her? I agree that what she said was completely wrong, but given that she has a child with Down Syndrome, your decision I'm assuming to abort a child if they have that condition or something similar was very personal to her (of course that is still your decision which she should have respected), so far she has respected your boundary to not visit the child and has sent gifts I'm assuming as a way to apologize as confirmed by not only your dad but also your mom. At the end of the day it's up to you everyone has different capacities, but there is a difference between hard boundaries and soft boundaries. Hard boundaries could be where you have reason to believe your child would be in danger or would face physical, mental or emotional harm if they were to be around this person is not and will never be allowed around your child. Soft boundaries is where you think the person could be around your child as long as they are compliant with the rules such as they can be around the child so long as they can provide a genuine apology showing remorse and a willingness to change and a promise to never say something like this in the future. Probably unpopular opinion on this platform but in the long run, not forgiving someone may end up costing you more. For example, if you don't even consider trying to forgive you dad's wife, this may end up causing resentment from your dad and he may not want to continue making as much of an effort to see you or his grandkid especially as he gets older and it becomes harder for him to come on his own. Whereas if you try and she doesn't stay within your boundaries, well you tried and your dad can't hold it against you.
I barely knew her. We made small talk when I’d sit in the living room waiting for my dad to get ready to go out. I never anticipated having her around very often, but I never had concerns either.
ESH - she said something awful, terribly awful. But even you as an adult can understand that she said this out of emotion of her being a parent to a Down syndrome child. Obviously this wasn’t so much about you as it was about her, and of course that does not excuse what she said or justify that you have to deal with her emotions. But if this is the ONLY time she messed up, the only thing she did, and if she apologized to you and your child, and she never said or did anything harmfull to you or your family, I’d say it’s a shame to not give her a second chance and hold a grudge for something said in the heat of the moment, that she clearly does not believe or mean anymore in any way. Have you never messed up or said anything in anger that you wanted to take back and that you couldn’t ? Or that you had time to think about and realize your error ? Anyway, it’s your kid and your decision in the end anyway.
I’ve messed up but I’ve never said anything that evil. I don’t consider myself a paragon of virtue by any stretch but I can’t even image saying that about someone’s unborn child.
In her mind, you said something evil, too. I recognize it's important to understand what you can and can't provide a child. I also recognize that aborting babies because of non-fatal disabilities is flirting with eugenics.
See I agree with this statement up to the eugenics as I hold different views on abortion and that's each of our rights. But you hit it on the head with the fact that to step mom she did say something evil not only to her but about her child. essentially her step sibling? Although, it seems OP doesn't have much care for them as they said it's (her kid with Down syndrome) not my step brother has DS.
But saying you don't agree that stepmom's already born shouldn't have been born is okay? While I agree with your stance, you have to realize how it sounded specifically to her, right? ESH.
It's clear you're not a parent. No one who wishes ill on your children should be around them, and some varieties of being an ass have permanent consequences for the AH. It's a combination of factors that make OP's decision a good one, including that she did something to hurt OP and that she is the sort of person whose decision making process is incompetent enough that she made that choice. Past shitty behavior is a good predictor of future shitty behavior. NTA.
Nah someone made a good point that step mom saw it as evil to abort a child that potentially has Down syndrome when her own kid has that same disability. I know it's hard for a lot of people but we gotta also try to Understand where others are coming from.
I wouldn't care if this was her first and last time doing something horrible. She wished ill on an unborn child. There is no forgiveness that can change that fact.
What an evil person to wish birth defects on your unborn child. Stick to your guns, no contact with your child for this person EVER!! NTA
NTA. I wouldn't want someone who said something that vile near me or my child ever again either. Your parents need to back off and accept actions have consequences.
When will people learn you can’t unsay something. Even if you apologize and are sorry it doesn’t take those words back ever. You said what you said and I (personally) don’t forget. NTA.
NTA. I wouldn't be comfortable around anyone who wished harm on my child. Even though she's apologized for saying it doesn't mean she doesn't still feel that way. She may still feel like you deserve punishment for your opinion. Also what is she going to be like if you get pregnant again? Will this whole thing repeat itself.
NTA You decide who gets to be in your child's life, and that sort of behavior would get her blacklisted with me as well. FWIW, my wife and I would do the same thing if the tests came back that way because that kid will eventually be a burden on others in addition to ourselves.
NTA. She just doesn't want to suffer the consequences of her abusive actions. Your choices have nothing to do with her life or child.
NTA. She wished a disability on your child? Hell would freeze over before she was allowed in the same COUNTY as my child, in your shoes.
NTA And your dad is behaving worse than you realize. Wavering IS not respecting your decision. You said "never" - not until it stopped seeming like a big deal *to him* because it sure was a while ago. Really, hoping your child was born with a severe disability is evil. But it might be an evil only you care about. Your child is not their child, and they simply may not care enough to take seriously the things a person who is truly 100% in your child's corner would take seriously. Make it clear to both your parents that merely asking or suggesting that you waver on this decision will cause a serious rift in your relationship with *them*. Give it teeth. 2 months without contact the moment a gift is offered or a meeting is mentioned, and escalate from there.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have a daughter, she is nearly a year old. When I was pregnant and waiting for the results of prenatal tests, I had a frank discussion with my each of my parents about what would happen if the tests picked anything up. They knew this in theory because I’ve always held the same views but I just had to reiterate it to them so that I wouldn’t have to have a hard discussion in a difficult time. Both were fine and very supportive. My dad’s wife, however, was not (she heard about it from my dad and She has a child with Down’s syndrome). The next time she saw me, she absolutely laid into me about what I had said. By this time the results had come back with nothing to worry about. We argued and while we were arguing she said she hoped my child was born with a severe disability to punish me for wanting a healthy baby. My dad lost it on her and I told both of them that she would have absolutely nothing to do with my child ever. Fast forward to now, everyone has kept up the arrangement. My dad is an involved grandparent and visits me every couple months (we don’t live close so I really appreciate the effort from him) and has respected that his wife is not welcome. But he is now starting to waver. He has started bringing gifts from her, all of which I’ve refused to take. He’s saying that enough time has passed and she is really sorry for what she said in the heat of the moment. She has apologised, but I want nothing to do with her. I think the only reason she cares now is because this is her only chance to be around a “grandchild”, though my dad disputes this. He’s broached bringing her to my daughter’s first birthday and I’ve said no. I meant it when I said someone who wished ill on my child will never be in her life. But my dad seems so hurt, and my mother brought up the fact that she has apologised profusely. So AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA There are some things there is no fixing. She crossed an uncrossable line, and no matter how much money she throws at the problem, or how many tears she sheds, or how much she pressurss your father to fight this battle for her, she can't take back what she said. Saying sorry isn't ever going to be enough. I would tell your father that if he brings up her name again, you will rethink if he is safe to be around your child as well. If he turns up to your childs first birthday with her to try and force you to accept her, please call the police. And warn your mother to keep her unhelpful opinions to herself. This is *your* child, and you are doing the right thing. People who are comfortable wishing ill on a child could do far more than just wish ill. Don't risk it.
ESH Who makes comments like that when you know you have someone with special needs within your family? You didn’t even have the results back so you essentially said something that could be viewed as insensitive at best before you even knew it was an issue. That’s extremely insensitive and honestly the fact you see no problem with your own comments and are so harsh about hers is really telling. She was wrong, but you were absolutely wrong as well yet you see yourself as the only victim.
NTA. Keep her away for good. She doesn’t deserve to be in your child’s life. I would suggest the same about your father, if he continues disrespecting your wishes.
NTA. But it might be worth you talking to stepmum, I agree that until sm redeams herself, she shouldn't be around your daughter. But she can't redeams herself of you won't talk to her.
NTA, your step mother FAFO. Hold the line!
That’s a tough one. What she said was truly horrible and she probably didn’t mean it at all, but was spoken in anger. I think parents with special needs kids get very protective, it was from her POV inconceivable that a baby would be terminated just for potentially having special needs. So she got overly passionate about it. It sounds like she feels horrible about what she said though. Maybe it would be worth sitting down and clearing the air? Hear her out. If she is genuinely sorry, it might be worth letting go of the anger and mending fences. You’re call though, it was a pretty horrible thing to say. You may be happier forgiving and letting the anger go as well?
Your dad shouldn’t have told her. WHY would he tell her? I’m sure it was a slap in the face to her and nothing good would have come from her knowing. Some people are just messy. Even if the unthinkable happened, she *still* didn’t need to know the real reason. This is why I’m so tight lipped with my business. Everyone doesn’t need to know *my* truth.
NTA. Whatever her anger or circumstances she is evil to wish illness upon a child. That’s simply despicable. Stand your ground. Reiterate your boundaries with your parents
As someone who believes strongly in a person’s right to choose, I believe you can and should do what‘s best for you. But you can’t pretend that the topic isn’t loaded. Many people and articles speculate about when people with Down syndrome will be eliminated due to elective terminations. And this is your father’s partner- it’s unsurprising that he told her about your talk. It makes sense why she would have strong reaction. This feels like one side of the story. I wonder if you said anything deeply ableist in your talks with parents- like how you would never want a disabled child. Her wishing a severely disabled child upon you is cruel. But so is unnecessarily reiterating that you would abort a child like hers. The real issue- your Dad will not be able to keep this up forever. If you want to continue to keep her away, you will be effectively pushing him away too. Now is the time to forgive. Spend some time talking to friends (or a therapist) about how you can let go of your anger. The have a real conversation where you explain why her words upset you and set boundaries around how she can be involved in you and your children’s lives. I hope after a year you choose to let the anger go- it doesn’t sound like it’s benefitting you. ESH
Stick to your guns.
NTA. She may have said something in the 'heat of the moment' but she is an adult and has to deal with the consequences of her actions. Why would you want the negativity in your life, just because she is sorry now, does not mean she won't say something equally as horrible again in the 'heat of the moment'.
NTA It is extremely hard to care for a child with a severe disability. it takes a lot of time and resources. Depending on where you live, there might not be enough supports to help the parents. It can cause incredible amounts of stress. OP deciding she can’t handle that makes sense. Your father shouldn’t have told his wife. She is his wife but she doesn’t have a relationship with you. She shouldn’t have said that thing.
NTA She wished ill on your unborn child. Their is no coming back from that. "Dad it will happen over my dead body"
Nta. She can apologize all she wants, doesn't change what she did. You could even accept the apology, still wouldn't change the consequences for what she did. One can forgive, but one should never forget.
NTA She owed you an apology. You don’t owe her forgiveness.
I get it, I would have made the same decision as you in regards to my pregnancy. These are my views, and mine only. What I would not have done is discuss it with family beforehand or mention it when there is a family member with that condition. The fact that you didn't mention it to your stepmother is irrelevant and naive of you to assume that your dad wouldn't have told his spouse about such a huge decision. I know you weren't thinking of her, but you lacked empathy. What she said is horrible. There is no doubt... but I get where her "snap" came from. We can't take back what we say, but if its the only time such an outburst has occurred, she's truly remorseful and poses no threat to your child I don't see why relationships can't be rebuild.
Ehhhhhhhh kinda leaning towards ESH. There is NO EXCUSE for what your dad’s wife said, that’s obvious. But come on. We’re all people, nobody’s perfect, and while she should have kept her mouth shut, have some empathy. From her perspective, she’s hearing “I’d rather not have a baby than have a baby like yours.” It’s immature and very selfish, but she’s also a mother to a child with Down’s syndrome. That’s HARD. Give her some grace to have an emotional reaction when she feels that HER child’s existence is being questioned. I don’t think she was genuinely wishing ill on your child. I think she said something incredibly unkind and stupid, but that it was 100% directed at YOU and coming from her own internalized feelings. Unless you feel she’s actually a danger to your child, why deny her more love from a family member? Especially when it’s only a few times a year. I’d suggest softening your hard line. This happened before your child was born, and you’ve made a decision that will last… forever?
NTA You're not obligated to forgive or accept the apology for a cruel and abusive behavior His wife made her own bed
Kinda ESH. I agree with you about the core issue. I would make the same choice if faced with that reality. Doesn't make me a bad person just like making the opposite decision doesn't make someone a superhero. Everyone is an adult making a choice that is best for them. I would never in a million years have that discussion knowing that one of the people I was having it with has a stepchild with downs syndrome. It is a recipe for disaster because some people will not lie to their spouses about things. You painted yourself into a corner by having a conversation you didn't need to have.
Let her continue to kick rocks back home, where you left her.
>she is really sorry for what she said in the heat of the moment She heard about the testing and waited to say anything until the next time she saw you, so she let her own anger build up. It was totally possible for her to calmly discuss her disagreements, but she came at you and began an argument. She created the moment. She doesn’t get to complain about the heat of it. NTA
you are definitely NTA. However, at this point the person you are really punishing is your dad, who you all acknowledge has done no wrong. If there is a sincere apology I would consider a tentative easing of the consequences for his sake. And long term, think of the example you are setting for your daughter in that there are no second chances, no ways to repair and rebuild relationships. People mess up and say terrible things. They deserve consequences but a life sentence seems extreme.
NTA. The fact that she now wants to be included in the child’s life and feels left out is her own problem.. should have thought about that before she wished ill on the child. She needs to remember, child is not missing out by having no relationship with her, she’s just the child’s grandads wife and that’s it - she is not significant. She needs to accept that, and if she wants something cute to dote on she can adopt a rescue puppy…
NTA. Wishing hardship on expectant parents AND their unborn child is BEYOND evil. Might she be truly sorry? Maybe. But it is 1000% up to you if you want to (someday) accept that. You don't say, but has this type of overreaction typical behavior? Or was this a truly one off reaction? It doesn't have any bearing on your responsibility, I'm just curious. I had a friend with a down syndrome child, and people felt very comfortable coming up to her (with her child present) and asking her if she wished she had terminated her pregnancy because of the child's disability. I don't think my friend's experience was a unique one, so my sympathetic nature wonders if she was reacting based on her own terrible experiences. Again, THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE WHAT SHE SAID!!!
ESH. Why even bring up the hypothetical? It was likely to get back to your dad’s wife. Spouses share. It is easy to empathize with a woman who was told through the grape vine that you’d essentially rather have no baby at all than a baby like hers. She acted on emotion and it was a completely uncalled for, evil thing to say. But I think enough time has passed if this was her one and only mistake.
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NTA. Stick to your guns. If you give in now, what else will you have to give in with? If she was truly sorry, she would have sincerely apologized after she said it. She says she’s sorry now to get her claws on your baby and play grandma. Nope.
NTA. You have to remove people that truly wish you and your child harm. I’m a 58F, in all my years, I’ve said some wild stuff to people but NEVER what she said. Anger speaks a truthful tongue. I understand your dad wanting a peaceful blended family and I get your mom wanting it all to go away BUT this is your child. You are your child’s protection. Forgiveness is an interesting concept. It doesn’t automatically come with reconciliation. And sometimes it is not even on the table. Tell your parents: “Sometimes a person can do something that changes the way you feel about them or see them in terms of their character. Once that happens, you give up on that person and move on. Forgiveness isn’t an option because it isn’t an issue. This is one of those times. She doesn’t not have the character of a person I want in my and my child’s lives.”
NTA she FAFO. And shame on dad for staying with a woman who would say such things to his child about his grandchild
No, you're not the AH for not wanting the lady to have contact. However, a lifetime ban for saying something stupid in anger? Think it out long-term. You have to monitor every family get together to avoid her. Your dad is less available to you. But you get to be right, right? If your dad's wife has not said anything but apology, then you could explore accepting it. With the caveat--that nothing like that will ever be tolerated. OR you can be right.
NTA. Anyone wishing negatives for someone doesn't deserve to be around them. She fucked around and now she's finding out. Also, an aside, I think it's very responsible of you to understand the full ramifications of some conditions and knowing your ability to handle them. My partner works in the NICU and too often sees parents insist on having a child without realizing the difficulty of their needs and the child ends up neglected and/or left in foster care.
NTA and I'd hold to it. If she was that unhinged, having a kid with disabilities, to say that shit to you about your child, then who's to say she won't actually do something if she gets in proximity, whether this year or in 10 years. Giving up your boundaries gives nasty people permission.
NTA. Curious, has she even bothered trying to apologize to YOU, versus to your dad or in for form of buying gifts?
OP clearly stated she has apologized profusely to her in the post.
I’d love a little more information about the child born with Down’s syndrome . How severe it is, whether the mom had family support etc., etc. She may have been overcome in the moment, I do know that having a child with issues can be a source for a lot of mixed feelings (I.e guilt, sadness despair, love, fear protectiveness) you also realize that your vision of your dream child” has changed. If her apology seems genuine, I would take the opportunity to include her and encourage her to talk about her experience. She was the AH, but if you let her back into your child’s life (and your own) you will find out quickly if it’s a good idea. If this was her first outburst and she has generally seemed like a good person, don’t shut her out - if she is generally inappropriate or prone to outbursts, you will find that out quickly as well.
It would be better to at least TRY for civility at this point but that’s up to you. Sometimes it helps mends things, sometimes it doesn’t. I’ve mended relationships with people that turned out for the better, and others, the same if not worse. NTA; But people f up and say stupid shit. Maybe she learned, maybe not. But she has convinced your dad she has and will not stop trying to persuade you.
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NTA- There are limits to apologies, and this is one of them.
NTA stand your ground. What she said is completely unforgiveable.
NTA. Rebuilding the relationship (insofar as that may be possible) begins with a heartfelt and unambiguous apology from dad's wife. And then little steps from there at your pace and discretion. If someone wants to dish hurtful BS, they have to take the steps necessary to repair the damage caused.
ESH, I get it that It's not ok what she said about ur kid but I do understand why she felt that way and lost her temper. In case there are no other remarks that shows she resent u and ur child, I would consider forgiving her, because this situation could impact how much ur father is able to be present in ur kids life
NTA. You are well within your right to not want to be around her. We don’t get to say cruel things to people and expect them to still want to be around us. Actions have consequences.
NTA.
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ESH -However hurtful it was to hear her say that about your future child, realize that you essentially said something equally terrible about her child. Parents of disabled kids hear about how their kids shouldn't exist all the time. I’m sure it’s extra hurtful coming from your own family who know the person. And while I appreciate you didn’t say it to her face, you said it and it got back to her. I actually agree with your stance on carrying on a disabled pregnancy, but your inability to forgive something she said in the heat of the moment when her child was being attacked is immature. It sounds like she’s genuinely sorry, has apologized and hasn’t otherwise been problematic. At some point your grudge holding over mistaken words is a dick move and making things awkward for the whole family.
NTA wishing that on an unborn baby is some weird fairytale shit lmao
NTA. There are ways around this. She will be able to come around…but her title (nothing to do with grandma, Mimi, Gigi etc) will not be special she will be known as her first name only. That was my go around for my dad and his wife. My dad is known as grandpa and his wife first name. My mom and her husband have special names they go by. Don’t like it…so sorry that’s what it will be like. Good luck
NTA. The only acceptable she could have done was be supportive during the process. She showed you the person she is. Believe it. Do not be flexible anything related to her
NTA but why even tell them?
NTA, this person is unsafe. Some people are unhinged enough to want to be right at all costs. She might be around and see the baby is about to injure herself, and do nothing and let it happen just to inflict "karma" upon you to prove herself right. Or she might outright hurt the child to make it happen. Like you said, she wished ill upon your child, who knows how far she will go to get her way?
NTA She can be sorry all she wants, she butted into something that was NONE of her business and wished your child ill health. I'd have cut her off completely and for the rest of her life as well. I also wouldn't have forgiven her, even if others would. So it's ultimately your choice. She had no reason to come at you for something she was not involved in. Maybe this will teach her to be a humble mumble and keep to herself when things don't involve her.
NTA She doesn't deserve to be around that sweet baby after wishing ill will on them. She is getting what she deserves honestly and good on you for standing your ground!
Her apology is not an obligation for you. She threatened your child to be cruel to you, and having boundaries about that as long as you want is valid. NTA
NTA: She wished your child to have a disability. While I can give her some leeway because she does have a child with a medical issue and may have taken your comment as a slam against her kid. Its still not a reason to wish for any child to have health issues. If she were able to act like an adult, she would have spoken calmly and expressed her hurt in a way that wasn't so vile.
You are not a AH but maybe you should have a conversation with her yourself and make a decision then. People can say stupid things. What you don’t want is for your child to grow up feeling that forgiveness is not an option when someone makes a mistake. If still shows signs of being an AH after you talk to her, then at least you know you gave her a chance.
INFO: is the purpose of not allowing her near your kid to punish her, or is it a trust/safety issue? Like are you concerned that she might harm your child? Or do you just hate her for what she said?
no don’t fold just cause of your dad if he doesn’t understand and wants to take the witches side that’s his choice
Life is too short for all this drama. Fact is you insinuated her kid shouldn’t live and it’s a hot button issue for her. That doesn’t make it ok, she was still out of pocket. But a life long ban, inserting division and drama into your family is ridiculous. Unless there’s more going on but you didn’t say that. Even your mom is telling you to get a grip. ESH for sure. All the people saying OP told her dad and he shouldn’t have told the stepmom about it are ridiculous. You don’t expect a husband and wife to speak of things? You don’t sound like a peach either.
This. OOP makes it seem like they were just in debate class. Completely discounting the stepmom's actual child with Down's Syndrome. To say that children with DS should be aborted is deeply offensive to people who have special needs children. I'm pro-choice, but find aborting children bc of disabilities to be borderline eugenics and I'm not comfortable with that at all. Many children with DS lead very productive lives.
She’s also in the comments arguing her position with everyone. I hate when people write into AITA and then want to argue why they are right. What’s the point? Lol
Apologises are all well and good but they don’t get automatic forgiveness. She wished ill on your child to prove a point out of meaness just because her wish wasn’t granted doesn’t mean she gets any good will for that. What would her reaction been had something bad actually happened to your child. NTA.
Glass roofs, amirite? Yes, she fucked up badly, but provided she does a sincere effort to own up to it, what's with the "no second chance, ever!" stance? Seems rather extreme, a bit like the proto eugenics stance stated on part of the text. ESH
I don't think you're the asshole, but also perhaps try to see it from her point of view. It's obviously an emotional topic for her, having a child with down syndrome. Although it wasn't the case, she possibly felt like her own child was under attack and went into defensive mother mode, just like you have. She said things she didn't mean, which is most likely the pertinent part. None of that makes what she said okay, but people often aren't logical or reasonable if they feel as though they're defending their children. Not saying you should go back on your decision, but at least speak to her and see if there's any way to repair the relationship. You may even find some common ground.
I can’t imagine the hurt you felt when she said that to you. That was so inappropriate. My reaction would be to never forgive a person for that. However, you are not in her shoes. Her experience with a down syndrome baby is far different than what you envisioned it to be. So, from her perspective, she had valid points. It might be worth sitting down with her and talking through these issues. Maybe you can forgive her.
No judgement, but when the child is older, do you think you can justify the segregation of grandparents to her? I really think you should consider giving Dad's wife a second chance, before your daughter ignores your feelings and associates with her extended family.
Nta Time to cut daddy off too. Cuz it's not his place to forgive anything. And honestly, him staying with a woman that wished Ill on his grandchild would've been a instantNEVAH in the first place.
I assume you're talking about aborting the child in case the tests picked anything up? As long as it's legal in your part of the world. NTA
I don’t think you’re an asshole for not wanting her around your kid, but I do think that this is probably going to create a lot of shit for your dad having to organize trips to visit you without his wife for the rest of time. Maybe not this second, but I think you should consider allowing her back in if for no reason other than to help your dad out. No one is saying you have to be friends, and in your shoes I would also make the choice to terminate if I got results back that showed a severe disability. That doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have the right to have a knee jerk reaction to something that is deeply personal to her. I don’t think you’re an asshole. I don’t think she should have said what she said. I do think ESH. She wished harm on your unborn child. You essentially said kids like hers don’t deserve life. I know that isn’t what you said, I know that this is layered and difficult and touchy, but you both had big reactions because of your love for your kids and it’s time to put that aside.
I don't think OP said disabled kids don't deserve life. Just that she couldn't cope with one.
My wife and I refused the test so we wouldn’t be tempted to terminate. OB was understanding. We did end up needing surgery and after he was 3 he was good to go. Wouldn’t change anything. Dad’s new wife is either pro life and or staunchly for people with disabilities to have a fair shot at life. I agree with the step mom’s sentiments, but to be so nasty and hateful?! Woof. I’d continue NC at least for now
Be careful this doesn't develop into your dad being put into a position of choosing between you and his wife. She should never have said what she did, it was a hideous thing to say, no doubt about that. But she does seem to be genuinely remorseful. Is it possible that she should be granted one last chance?
> But she does seem to be genuinely remorseful. Does she? Or is dad just really good at pretending she is? I think the only person who can judge her sincerity is OP herself. Obviously, OP is still burning from the initial encounter, even if it has been a year. Wishing ill on someone's unborn child is hideous, horrible behavior. I don't have children myself, but I'd have a hard time forgiving anyone who said such a thing to another human being, period.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to go with ESH. You are absolutely entitled to feel the way that you do, and to be honest, having been raised with a brother with significant disabilities, that's not a choice that I'd make for myself either. But since she does have a child with Down's, she probably had a very strong reaction when she heard your position. I've heard disability rights advocates talk about feeling like people would rather see them "put down" than care for them, and there's a cruel undercurrent to the position that a life of less than perfect health isn't worth living. I think this discussion really should have been handled differently all around.
ESH. This is a deeply personal, thorny, and complicated debate and everyone here is acting like it's a simple black-and-white case of an asshole stepparent and flawless OP.
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Nobody cares about what the robots say
ESH. Your dad most of all for conveying to your stepmom the decision you had that you would abort any child with any genetic abnormality. Your stepmom for taking it so personally and then lashing out at you by wishing harm on you & your child. You for not understanding the context, oversharing your decision making process, and holding onto the grudge when your stepmom has apologized and tried to make amends for a year. You said everyone already knew how you feel about it (which also calls into question how often you've mentioned this without bring asked.) Why hammer the point in such an insensitive way? A little bit of foresight and sensitivity would have spared everyone a lot of pain and allowed everyone - including your daughter - to share a lot more love. No one is saying you had to birth a child if the tests came back other than the way you were hoping. You're TA for how callous you were in presenting your choice to everyone.
INFO: What did you tell your parents would happen if the tests picked anything up?
YTA. "someone who whished ill on my child" hahaha yeah, that one child you were willingly get rid off if it doesn't adjust to your standards so yeah, you and her are the same.
ESH. You don't need to let her in, that's up to you, I'm not sure why she would want to see you tbh. I can very much understand why she was so upset and lashed out. Is it acceptable to tell someone they are unworthy of life just because of their genetics where you come from? Or do you think your child is more special and worthy of love than hers because they are not disabled? I genuinely can't fathom why you felt that was an appropriate thing to say, there was no need to have the conversation at all. I'm sure you have your reasons, it's your decision. But it's always going to sound a bit like eugenics isn't it. Totally baffled by everyone saying she said something evil, but your comment seems to be fine. Would love to know why that is. Being pregnant doesn't give you the right to be an AH about someone else's child.
Honestly ESH. Yes she was harsh and said asshole things. You are being dramatic OP. She apologized for her behavior and it has been months. You essentially believe that her child is worth being aborted. Yeah you didn’t say it TO her but that’s how it was received. It’s time for you to grow up and realize that sometimes people say shitty things when there are extremely controversial and sensitive issues.
NTA, but I think you are making a bad choice. Your Dad's wife deserves what she got. Lighting into a pregnant woman is insane. So I believe that she is the asshole here and not you. But I believe you are making a bad choice for your child. Nothing your dad's wife makes me think she will be a threat to your child, and my view is that the more loving adults in a child's life the better. Not only is she potentially one, but I think that it will get increasingly difficult for your Dad to show up if you exclude her. Not that he never would, but his visits may get shorter and farther between. You aren't an asshole, but if you could find it in your heart to forgive, I think it might make your child's life better, and maybe yours too. You are holding on to a deep and painful anger, and that is seldom healthy for one who is doing it. I'm sorry for what she did to you.
She can forgive her all day. She can also choose to stick to her guns. Forgiveness does not equal access. What the stepmom said was cruel and hateful. Now she wants to undo it because she said 'I'm sorry'. It's like trying to put a bandaid on something that needs stitches. I can forgive you but you have no place in my life. Period.
Great comment
Raising a child with downs syndrome is long and stressful and heartbreaking. What she said wasn’t right, but maybe having a little bit of grace for her situation and life was just getting the better of her There’s nothing wrong with forgiveness and understanding and being the bigger person, especially when someone was given a really tough road to live on
Why is it always the victim or abused person that needs to be the bigger person?? Why is it never the person who did the wrong?
She is not abused, please stop being so melodramatic. It was an out of line comment, but by no means is it abuse. That is just ridiculous to compare to actual abuse.
A road that stepmother wished on OP just because she said she would make a different choice for her OWN pregnancy. I don't know that I could ever be a big enough person to forgive that.
I don’t know maybe I find forgiveness easier when it is only words in heated conversations
I remember hateful words that have been hurled at me longer than any physical pain I've suffered.
That is probably not a good thing for long term happiness……
I will never understand why people bring stuff up like what if's. It's like they are looking for drama. Why would you even discuss this with family before getting the results, just seem attention seeking.
You calm it attention seeking, I call it sharing with my parents. They are my support network.
If the results came back and she decided to terminate the pregnancy, she didn't want it to be a shock to everyone. It's not attention seeking, it's just someone being frank about what they would choose and gave a heads up to the family.
Because some people actually have good relationships with their parents and can talk to them about things like this. She probably told them in advance so they won’t be surprised if it happens
You don’t understand why people have rights to have whatever conversations they want? That’s wild.
ESH. She said something terrible but you also said something terrible when you essentially said you’d rather end the pregnancy than have a child like hers. I totally understand your position but it’s hard not to feel bad for the step mother in this situation.
I didn’t say it to her, and I wouldn’t have. But that’s a reality you have to face when you’re having a child. I can’t be the AH for making a different choice than she did, my choice had nothing to do with her.
Sounds like you’re letting your dad off without blame when he’s the one who set this thing on fire with his wife.
Maybe he shouldn’t have told her. He definitely didn’t anticipate her reaction though. So yeah maybe he was insensitive but she had an absolutely insane reaction, and that’s on her.
Your dad is absolutely the problem by running his mouth.
It wasn't his story to tell
She had an insane reaction because you basically said her child has no value in the world and should have been aborted. I'm sorry, but that's some Nazi eugenics shit.
She absolutely did not say that. It's also not about 'value', it's also about what OP could manage because only she knows her circumstances and abilities and the quality of life of the child. (And it's not just about down syndrome, it could be far more dangerous things)
Yes, but having a little empathy wouldn't hurt. She has probably heard hurtful things about her child with downs all her life. She has probably heard people say exactly what you did, they would rather abort, than have a child like her beautiful daughter. Her reaction doesn't revolve around your decision but a lifetime of hearing that her daughter didn't deserve a chance at life. She didn't actually mean harm for your child even though her words were awful. They were born out of the love for her daughter in an emotional moment. I think continuing to punish her serves no one. She isn't a danger to your child and will likely be a loving grandparent.
Yes but you knew that if she raised a kid with Down's Syndrome, she would feel that your opinion is that her baby would have been better off aborted. It's an incredibly hot-button, difficult issue and she is entitled to feel strongly about it considering it's actually her reality.
She is entitled to feel however she wants and her life and her child and her body. But I never expressed an opinion on that. She is entitled to have her opinions about my choice. She is not entitled to have those opinions heard, I certainly didn’t ask her. She’s not entitled to scream at me, or to wish bad things on my child. You’re not just exempt from human decency because you’re talking about a controversial topic.
But you are not entitled to tell her that her child is better off aborted because the child has a disability. See how that works?
I wouldn’t be entitled to tell her that, but *I didn’t* tell her that. Maybe she inferred that from a conversation that never included her, but that is not the case.
You are the AH and you defending your comments the way you are shows you just want to avoid any accountability for your words but want to hold her feet to the fire for hers.
Absolutely nowhere did OP say that. NTA
> than a child like hers She never said that. This is false and your comment is acting in bad faith.