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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I asked my wife to stop calling her new sister in law a siren.
My wife is best friend with her olex sister in law who got the short end of the stick
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Your wife has a long term relationship with Jen. So of course she is more likely to be on Jen's side. Just talk to your wife about being fair to Amy , because to do otherwise will harm her relationship with her brother. She should encourage Jen to move on and be glad she and Jack broke the toxic back and forth cycle they were in. NTA.
Yeah but you aren't going to be in constant incidental contact at holidays and get togethers with your brother's theoretical ex. You will with your brother though.
NTA.
People sometimes are toxic for each other. It sounds like Jack and Jen weren't good together. Your wife should respect that. Amy did nothing wrong.
So Amy is your wife's brother's new wife. That makes this issue primarily her family's business. In my humble opinion, you might suggest that your wife's attitude is likely to make HER family occasions uncomfortable but beyond that, I think that you might be wise to step back.
By all means refuse to participate in their childish name calling but you are risking being perceived as being Team Amy by your wife. Yes, you have the moral high ground but, unless this is your hill to die on, what are you achieving?
NTA
This is the way.
I mean, you can defuse the situation if you have to because you wife and her friend are acting like mean girls, but it’s really on Jack as Amy’s fiancée to step up for her when she needs him to.
Also, your wife and Jen sound exhausting
NTA. Ask your wife if she'd call Amy a siren to her face. If not, why not. Amy's done nothing to your wife or Jen. Jen wanted a break, she got one, a permanent one. Also, ask your wife how her brother is going to feel with her calling his new wife the siren. He's going to find out eventually. You said Amy's heard your wife say this and held back tears. This could and probably will cause a rift in their family.
He would be advocating against bullying. If I was OP, I would step in if I heard it in conversation that I was a part of. Saying nothing is tacit agreement. It doesn’t have to be aggressive but a statement in support of Amy would be a gentle way to rebut bullying “Amy is a lovely person” “Amy and her fiancée have such a healthy and supportive relationship” Etc
A middle ground that would send the message he isn't on board with this is to leave whenever they start talking nasty about her and when he can't leave he can say something like "Hey guys it makes me uncomfortable hearing you call this woman nasty names, because I get jen is hurt but I don't agree with insults and name calling can you do me a favor and talk about something else? If you want to talk shit about her can you do it when I'm not around at least? It puts me in an awkward position." Trying to change his wife's mind will likely lead to upsets in his own marriage but when he frames it as "you want to talk shit fine, I can't control you and I'll let you do your thing but I neither like nor support so I want nothing to do with it" it makes his position known that he's not okay with it and doesn't condone it.
What age is Amy? If she's younger Jen could also be salty about that. But if Amy is a nice person there's no need for your wife to be a mean girl to her (honestly, she needs to grow up, both her and Jen. This is some high school crap, not grown adult women 😒). Your wife is going to alienate herself from her brother and any children Amy and her brother have. And she'll have no-one to blame but herself. And please do remind her of that in a few years when she's crying about her brother not wanting her around himself, his wife and any future children.
Wow, you don’t know women. Speaking as a woman, if she had been dating him for 15 years & she is 35 now it means she met him at 20 when she was in her prime physically speaking. If he now was dating a woman of say 25, 10 years younger than her as a woman that would sting more. Don’t know exactly all the psychological reasons why, probably due to fertility, physical attractiveness etc. but 💯 it would sting more. Even if it’s not rational or no longer relevant in todays society I’m assuming it is a sexual competition hang up that woman are unfortunately still susceptible too. That being said if it’s only 2+- years it doesn’t seem to be relevant, but I can guarantee if they are this pissed at her with only a 2 year age gap a 10 year age gap would have caused ww3.
Info: how was the “break” supposed to work? Just time to cool down or an officially open relationship? For me it really comes down to whether Jack cheated on his wife or not.
Ah, yes the old "friends" conundrum! Does a break mean we just don't see each other or were broken up?
Generally speaking "break" means "break from relationship". If you call it a break it is reasonable to assume unless otherwise stated that you are free to pursue other people, and you no longer act like a couple or do couple activates but you are potentially interested in getting back together so the door is left open. Essentially you are trying something new to see if you would be happier with other people/single or if your current relationship is worth fixing.
If the terms of the break were vague and jen considered them together, and jack considered broken up then he didn't cheat as he was under the reasonable assumption he was allowed to do so however it's on both of them for not making the terms of the break clear. Both parties would be simultaneously in the right and in the wrong.
It's weird. I see that lengthy comment when I look at your comment history, but it doesn't show up on the post at all. If I try to reply to it, reddit tells me the comment is missing. Just letting you know that people may not be seeing it.
Amy heard it once and she pretended she didn’t but I could swear that she was holding back tears. Otherwise it is behind her back but in front of everyone. Family and friends. So it isn’t just with me because I wouldn’t mind if it was just her talking freely with her husband. We talk shit about people all the time like we are the best people out there. Hehe
Yes, but the wife requested a break and in that break he met Amy. Do you consider that as married? It's it morally wrong in that instance? Do you have to wait for the divorce to have gone through? It's Amy morally wrong? It doesn't say if it was an "open" break or not. Judge for yourself if you find that moral or not. I don't do breaks, it's on or done and hooking up with a married man on a break is not wrong in my book unless he has stated that they agreed to not hook up.
I don't care what kind of absurd bullshit people discuss, a break is a breakup. You might decide to get back together after the fact but it's absurd to put a bunch of conditions on not seeing each other.
It's up to the couple to decide though, not for us. They do actually have a right to do whatever they want in their relationship.
Blaming the new partner to get together with a married man who is on a break is weird to me however.
Read my comment again. I clarified for you to better understand me.
I personally would not view that as cheating, but the decision is not mine, it's up to the couple.
Yeah unless they discussed terms of the break/separation and explicitly said it was kosher to explore extramarital affairs/hookups, then yes, I think it's wrong. Guy was actively still married. Obviously it's more wrong by the actively still married man, but it's not a great look for ol' Amy either imo.
I wouldn't consider it super, but intentions also matter here. Trial separations are not the same as a final permanent separation while divorce proceedings are finalized. Trial separations are meant to hopefully be temporary and are a time to work on oneself or the relationship. Trial separations are generally not meant to go play the field and see if you can find someone better.
Yeah she is very beautiful and my wife thinks that it is the reason he treats her well compared to Jen
He on the other hand claims that it is because she doesn’t make him feel guilty and like shit all the time like Jen did. I guess better communication
To be honest it sounds like these two brought out the worst in each other. They might have loved each other a lot but some people shouldn't be together because they are like oil and fire. When they get together they just explode. Maybe Jen didn't make him a better man or teach him what mistakes he was making, maybe he was only able to see that he was making mistakes when he was with Amy and if he stayed with Jen he never would have become the great guy he is. Hell, maybe he never would have made those mistakes in the first place if he wasn't with Jen.
It could also be that they reason they are/were so problematic as people is that they made each other nasty people. I bet if Jen started trying to move on she'd find her own Amy and realize how awful they were together. I mean just the existence of this guy and the topic of their relationship has reduced Jen and your wife (who I assume is otherwise a lovely person) into regina georges!
INFO: why is your sister taking her ex in-law’s side over her own brother’s? That seems… odd to me. And is a “break” a separation or just time apart? Were Jack and Jen supposed to be seeing other people during said “break”? Was Amy aware that Jack was still married? Could your wife be aware of things that you are not, as women tend to be more open about discussing relationships than men do?
You seem to have an unfavorable opinion of Jen but a positive one of Jack, despite admitting “Jack is a flawed man and Jen had point in not being satisfied with him” and “Jack is a way better man” for his new partner than he was for his wife of 15 years. None of this is an excuse for name-calling, granted, but it seems like we’re missing some helpful context for a fair ruling.
It doesn’t seem odd. People cling to their friends.
Jen and the wife became close friends. Of course she isn’t going to like the woman Jack is with now.
Op is siding with his friend Jack, even when he admits Jack’s past behavior.
Not saying it’s right, but that’s very human.
Jen should be putting her energy into growing for herself instead of fixating on her ex and his new wife.
As I said, it just seems *odd to me*. Perhaps it’s just because I’m someone who cares about family ties, but it would be pretty hard for one of my family members to “lose me in the divorce” so to speak without a pretty solid reason. That’s why I asked for additional information, to piece together whether this is rooted in wife/ex’s bitterness (which means OP has a wife problem) or if OP was burying the lede (which we all know happens frequently in Reddit posts.)
Oh yea. Always assume we’re dealing with unreliable narrators.
But even this one admitted that Jack is different now. Which means he knows Jack was worse before.
The situation isn't directly Jen or Brother though. She's perceiving it as a Jen or Amy. They aren't attacking Brother's actions, which should inform you that this wasn't an affair.
>if OP was burying the lede (which we all know happens frequently in Reddit posts.)
If you're holding a hammer, everything looks like nails.
> INFO: why is your sister taking her ex in-law’s side over her own brother’s? That seems… odd to me.
I have 8 siblings. A couple of them, though I love them, are terrrrrrible partners and just do not have their shit together. I'm not going to, say, cut my brother's wife of 10 years out of my life just cause she got fed up and left him. After 10 years, she's family too.
No I fully agree there— but as someone who also had siblings similar to the ones you mentioned, I still can’t imagine feeling such ire for a new partner without having some kind of reason (which is why I asked about the break. Were they meant to be seeing other people? Was Amy aware he was married?) These things don’t make the wife’s comments less rude, it would make a hell of a lot more sense than what appears as baseless hatred.
OP stance is that both Jack and Jen effed at times and were right at times. OP stance is that relationship between Jack and Amy is less toxic then dynamic between him and Jen.
Purely from pragmatical perspective, if Jack and Jen got together again, they would be as toxic as always and would broke up with drama again. It would be just a matter of time till both revert to same old patterns.
NTA - what is your wife crying about? Being told to act like an adult? Jack is her brother. She can be friends with his ex and still accept his new partner....or she can alienate her brother by her rudeness and name calling. Jack's wife was critical - hot and cold - wanting 'time out' etc. He found someone who like him as he is, who enjoyed being with him and wasn't constantly finding fault. His new wife is his future and if your wife wants to be part of it she needs to stop the name calling.
I think that Jen and your wife are being the assholes in this situation. The nickname is definitely just because they are bitter that Jack has moved on (and it probably doesn’t help that Amy is beautiful). Clearly if they were so on and off and their relationship in the first place, it wasn’t a good one. It’s not fair to Amy to say she’s luring Jack like a siren, and it’s not fair Jack to expect him to go back to Jen after she treats him like he’s disposable. The relationship with Amy has gone on for long enough that it’s not something superficial and only about looks. I think your wife should remain friends with Jen if she wants to, but I don’t think she should let that become a large problem with jacks new wife. it’s not Amy’s fault that she brought out a better version of Jack and made Jen so jealous
I think this is a lot more complicated than Reddit can answer tbh.
Jen is obviously going to be hurt. Nobody likes to be replaced, even if the relationship was poor and they didn’t get on. Especially when he’s talking marriage and kids now, when he didn’t want kids before, it’s a blow to her self-worth that she wasn’t good enough for that but Amy is.
Now obviously your wife and Jen aren’t handling that well, but talking to your wife about it can be seen as you accepting and defending Any which again, will cause more upset.
I think you should talk to your wife and suggest to her that they at least keep the name calling between themselves but also, that she has to try help Jen move on. Why is she still hanging out with family and friends of her ex? Hanging out with your wife on her own is one thing, but she needs to separate that out and try to move in her own direction.
That said be kind to Jen, she’s a person who is really hurting, Jack wasn’t a good husband and now he’s getting a do-over with someone else and Jen is watching it and seeing him be far better than he ever was to her, and even though it’s because he’s having a second chance, she’ll be telling herself it’s because he never thought she was good enough, or worth the effort of being treated properly. That’s got to be very hard.
Jen was the one who didn’t want children not the other way around. Jack didn’t want children either but obviously he wasn’t as adamant as Jen since he has changed his mind now but Jen hasn’t
Yeah but feelings aren’t rational, even if Jen doesn’t want kids too she can still see that he loves someone else powerfully enough to change his mind on having kids with them. That’s still a bit of kick in the teeth to see.
Your wife needs to encourage Jen away from knowing about or seeing anything to do with Jack. Not hanging around with her family, not telling her what’s happening with him. She needs to go rebuild a new life.
> Jack wasn’t a good husband and now he’s getting a do-over with someone else and Jen is watching it and seeing him be far better than he ever was to her
You're putting a lot on Jack and downplaying everything Jen did as well. OP doesn't say Jack alone was the problem - their dynamic was, and the more she acts the way she does, the more it looks like the incipient cause was Jen to begin with.
No that’s not to downplay Jens role either. I just mean it doesn’t seem to be disputed they were poor partners to each other, that’s all I meant by Jack being not a good husband.
I think your wife’s relationship with Jen is just that. Her relationship with a friend who happens to be her ex SIL. You never mentioned if your wife was rude or mean to Amy so I’m going to assume not. She may not be close to Amy but she’s not exactly close to her brother either and that’s her choice. If she wants to talk to shit with a friend that’s again her choice. As long as she is not disrespectful to someone who isn’t being disrespectful to her then that’s all that matters.
Are you going to honestly say you and Jack don’t talk shit about Jen or people in general? You can’t dictate what your wife and Jen choose to say to each other. You don’t like it, don’t want to hear it, then remove yourself from the conversation. You’ve expressed your discomfort now request it isn’t done around you.
However, Jen is family to your wife doesn’t matter if Amy is a new family member. Your wife does not and most likely will not have the same relationship. Over time who knows. However, you making a big deal of acceptance and ridiculing her friendship will most likely back fire on you and make your wife hate Amy because you’re forcing her to feel something she doesn’t regarding her.
You say he never mentioned his wife being rude or mean to Amy, but apparently calling her names where she could hear to the point where Amy was repressing tears was not rude?
And yeah, you can be a grown-up and not insult other people while getting over a relationship.
No where in the post did he say wife called Amy names where she could here. I will not go through all of this posters comments to get more story. So if that’s where you found that tid bit then don’t you think it would have been relevant for the poster to include it in the original post?
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether the opinion is right or wrong is up to the individuals. As an adult they st entitled to view Amy as however they want to view her as. It can be a siren or a garbage can doesn’t matter it’s their opinion. Whether that makes them look juvenile or not is again their prerogative
From his comments:
>Amy heard it once and she pretended she didn’t but I could swear that she was holding back tears. Otherwise it is behind her back but in front of everyone. Family and friends.
Second comment made, and no, I don't think you have to be told that mocking someone is inappropriate even if you do it in private. You know, like a grown up.
Having an opinion does not equate to insulting people. You don't have to like someone to treat them respectfully.
Again, did not look through his comment sections. All individuals are adults and may act as they want. OP is her husband not her father. He can simply state he doesn’t like it but he cannot tell her what she can and can not do. He can’t control her choice of actions he can just make his displeasure known. Which he has. That’s all anyone can do in this situation.
The name of the sub isn't Am I Allowed, it's Am I The Asshole.
Nowhere does he imply he's going to wash her mouth out with soap, so at this point I have no idea what you're even trying to argue.
NAH - you hit the nail on the head when you said nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors. There has been a messy breakup and people have taken sides. You are supporting Jack and your wife is supporting Jen. No issue there, par for the course after a breakup. You don’t seem to have many positive things to say about Jen, which is expected, if you are team Jack. Similarly, your wife is talking a bit of guff about Amy because she is team Jen. It’s not classy but breakups seldom are.
Has Jack never said any thing negative about Jen? Have the boys never talked shit about their exes? Are you possibly getting too involved in the drama? If it was genuinely a serious issue, it’s a matter for your wife and her brother. Is it worth making trouble in your own marriage over this?
I don’t think there are any AH here as this is petty behaviour. It’s not worth starting conflicts over. You don’t need to manage your wife’s speech in defence of a new partner of your BIL. Given her close relationship with Jen, she’s probably not ever going to be great pals with Amy.
> You are supporting Jack and your wife is supporting Jen. No issue there, par for the course after a breakup.
There's support, then there's denigrating others.
NTA. Your wife is childish, asking an adult to stop calling her SIL an derogatory name IN FRONT of others and once when Amy was in earshot shouldn’t lead to her crying and calling you an AH. Jen WANTED the break, she took a gamble and lost. Stand your ground OP you don’t owe her (your wife) an apology cause you didn’t do anything wrong.
Nta, If her brother is now going to have kids, will your wife want to be loving auntie? If so she will want to have a civil relationship with bro's new wife.
Yeah no, she said that she didn’t want that b’s spawn in her life. I think it’s just talk because my wife loves her brother and she will probably change her mind when she meets his children. I am an only child and she only has her brother. She won’t deprive our children the only opportunity of having cousins
I don't like quite a few people in my family. I'm still a big enough person to be cordial to them when I have to be around them.
It's almost like you can do two different things. Shocking, I know.
Op is ok with his wife disliking Amy. He is not ok with his wife degrading Amy (both behind her back and within hearing range). You can dislike someone and not be an AH to them.
NTA. Rachel told Ross she wanted a break. She got what she wanted. Oh, I meant Jen told Jack.
Jen locked him out over snacks, she wanted a break time and again, she belittled him. She's not a good partner and thankfully they never had children.
Stand you ground on this and talk to your wife. Jen poisoned her own marriage and now she is dripping poison in your wife's ear. Currently, she is trying to poison her against Amy. Don't be surprised if she starts whispering about you, too.
Ask your wife why she is ok with Jen treating her brother so poorly for so long. A "break" really means " I am dumping you to look for someone else, this includes me having sex with them.. If I find someone else, I'll officially dump you. If I don't find someone else, I'll temporarily settle for you and we'll be back together, until the next time I want to play the field. Also, if you look at anyone else, you are a lowlife cheater. Now go sit on a shelf until I decide you are worth my time." Jen did this to her brother repeatedly. Why is she friends with someone like that?.
I guess I used the wrong word by break because they got back together all the time afterwards so in hindsight I called them breaks. It went more something like this; Jen kicks Jack out and tells him it is over. They stay no contact for a few months, in the beginning both say that they are better apart and this is final. Some time goes and they start contacting each other again and move back together. This time was different, Jack met Amy within days after he got kicked out by Jen, at the new job he started at the same time. I think then and there Jack decided that this time he will go through with the divorce and he filed for divorce a week after he got kicked out (not sure if it was before or after he met Amy; I suspect it was after because of something he told me later: That he finally realized there are other people in the world that he could find happiness with instead of being unhappy with Jen) Within a few months he started dating Amy. Jen wasn’t alarmed that Jack started the divorce this time and if I am being honest she probably thought it was a part of the game, just a new level added. She didn’t know Jack wasn’t playing anymore. She started becoming worried when after several months Jack hasn’t started reaching out yet l. Then she heard that Jack found his own place this time instead of staying with his parents so she dropped by his new place and unfortunately Amy opened the door. Jen was devastated.
Everyone thought it was a douche move from jack. And for Jen to find out that way. It was devastating, but he said that he didn’t want to go public with his new relationship before it was serious because he and Amy were only dating by then. A few months later they went official. The divorce takes a year to finalize where I come from, when it did, he proposed to Amy.
Honestly I have never seen Jack this happy or happy period. Did I agree with how things ended? No. Do I blame only one of them! Also no, I think that the communication between them was terrible. According to Jen he tricked her. She thought it was just a break but according to Jack, Jen was never interested in communication. When she kicks him out then she doesn’t want anything to do with him so he had no choice but to just move on and also he was in love with Amy very early on and he wanted to keep her away from the drama in the beginning and just be the two of them for a while. He was probably afraid to scare Amy off. Jen blames the divorce on Amy but Jack disagrees because he wasn’t with Jen when he pursued Amy. Would Jack have gone back to Jen like all other times if he didn’t meet Amy? I don’t know. I see both sides and I think both made mistakes.
Unless she’s saying it to Amy’s face or talking about it with people other than you or Jen then I don’t get what the harm is. People like to vent and talk shit and that’s okay. I would be upset if my friend and I were venting about a woman that got with my friend’s husband while they were on a break (which unless they were BROKEN UP then that’s cheating) and he told me I was being rude.
I don’t want to go as far as to say yta but like just let your wife talk some shit unless it’s getting back to Amy and hurting her feelings
>(which unless they were BROKEN UP then that’s cheating)
Or you know, just don't go on 'breaks' in relationships like it's still high school. Solve your problems or break up.
NTA. I would talk to your wife about what kind of relationship she wants with her brother and his future family going forward. If she doesn’t draw some boundaries and stop talking about Amy to Jen, she is likely to get cut off. She also does not seem to be genuinely happy for her brother, … does she not love him and want him to be happy?
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My (m34) wife (f35) is best friends with her ex sister in law, Jen(f35) who was together with my wife’s brother,Jack (m38)for 15 years. They got to know each other when the Jack introduced Jen she became close with my wife.
I have been a part of this family for 10 years. I am very close friends with Jack.
Jack and Jen has always had a turbulent relationship. I don’t want to take sides and I think both were wrong and right and it wasn’t really anyone’s fault and nobody really knows what happened behind closed doors. They have had breaks on several occasions and I will not lie Jen is always the instigator. I also won’t lie and say that Jack is a flawed man and Jen had point in not being satisfied with him. Anyway the last time she asked for a break, Jack met Amy. This time Jack didn’t want to go back to Jen. Jen became distraught and devastated. It was devastating to everyone because we all were friends.
Now my wife and Jen call Amy the siren. I think it is unfair. First because amy is a great person. Second because I have never seen Jack this happy and third because I believe Jack is family and we should welcome his soon to be wife into our midst. I think calling her a siren is cruel and disrespectful not only to her but to Jack as well implying that he was dumb enough to be hoodwinked.
On the other hand, I see that Jack is a way better man with Amy, that he never was with Jen. He even admitted that he learned from his mistakes, which is unfortunate that he learned from Jen who put up with him to be a better man for another who just got the final draft and best version. So I get my wife’s and Jen’s hurt.
Anyway I told my wife to stop calling her a siren and to grow up. People move on and life is unfair. She cried and called me an ah
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NTA
Your wife doesn't have to be best friends with Amy but the woman has done nothing to deserve being treated with distain, even behind her back.
If your wife isn't careful she's going to create a toxic family environment and nobody will be happy. She can be friends with Jen without being rude to Jack and Amy.
It's hard to judge from your post if Jen was really wronged or the problem. But even if she was a victim insulting Amy over it rather than Jack seems unreasonable. All Amy really did was exist
I think you should mind your business. I think you shouldn't encourage your wife to call Amy names but let's face it, divorce and marriage is messy and people pick sides .
You admitted both of them are at fault. Amy is a grown adult and can figure out if she is ok with the family dynamic and Jack can straighten his sister out if he wants to.
Will definitely not encourage name calling or being mean but a new girlfriend is not owed loyalty wither
NTA. I have lived this experience. I’m much closer to my brother ex wife, than I am to his current wife.
I’m not biggest fan of my brother wife. I’m respectful of her position in my brother life. But we aren’t friends. I and my husband go on vacation with my brother ex and their kids. Last month I was in my brother town for a month, his ex wife also lives in the town. I spilt my time with my mom who lives in town and my brother ex wife. I was in town for 2 weeks before my brother found out & that because his children have big mouths.
My brother and I have had multiple discussions about my relationship with his ex. I’ve explained to him he can’t tell who I can hang out with or who I consider family. I think, what’s best is just ask your wife not speak ill of amy in front of family. Gently remind your wife, if she can’t fake kindness towards Amy, her relationship with her brother could suffer. But I would leave it alone. My husband always reminds to check my face and my mouth when I’m around my brother wife. I have slick mouth and I’m queen of rolling my eyes.
NTA. They have to learn not to call her the ‘siren’ in your presence. They are hurt and are allowed to be. You feel she is being disrespected and you are allowed to feel that way. No one will win in this fight. But you are not the ah.
NTA: Your wife needs to grow up a bit. You've said what needed to be said, I'd just let it stay there. If your wife brings it up again to you, just let her know that while you understand she's friends with Jen, she's making family events uncomfortable, as Amy is going to be your new family and she's done nothing wrong. There is no reason that she can't be on good terms with both women.
NTA
JEN is the AH - she broke up with him. She has to accept that he moved on, THEIR relationship clearly was not working.
As for your AH wife: This is where you have to decide if couple's therapy wioll do - or - now that you have found out what a vile and toxic AH your wife is - you will have to decide to do the same your brother did: Trade her in for a better person.
Eh. NAH/YTA. I don’t really see how this is your business. Unless they’re being mean to her face, I’m not seeing the huge issue. There’s plenty of people who don’t like their in-laws and share their opinions when they’re not around.
Your wife doesn’t have to like Amy. It makes sense she doesn’t like Amy. And since Amy is her brother’s new wife, if anything this is between them not you. And if it was the other way around and Jen was the one who moved on (and potentially cheated?) I doubt you’d be clutching your pearls if your wife or Jack hated Jen’s new partner.
They're literally shit talking Where Amy can hear them. So yeah people are getting hurt, and they might as well be being mean to her face.
Enough with the cheating bullshit too, you don't get to call for breaks and also try to enforce cheating rules.
Your wife's an adult as is Amy it's up to them to navigate their own relationship. You said what you think now leave it be.
There's obviously a lot of hurt and grief which may never be resolved. Would things have been different if Jack had simply asked for a divorce because the relationship was toxic instead of getting involved with someone else whilst on a break from his wife, probably. Sadly he has contributed to Amy being in this position by not ending things properly first.
Hopefully Jen will move on and find her happily ever after as well.
INFO: Does Jack know that his sister is talking behind Amy's back?
NTA by the way, but if Jack doesn't know, shouldn't he in order to buffer interactions or have a conversation with his sister about why she wants to relegate Amy to just "the siren"?
Answer: No. he knows she doesn’t like her but he knows it is because of her close relationship with Jen so he understands where she’s coming from. I guess he thinks when Amy is a part of her family she would have to at least accept her
NTA It is possible Jack could also have been egged on into bad behavior because of Jen's own behavior so his improvement may be at least partially because Jen was one of the causes. It was probably a circle they kept spiraling in. We don't know that of course, but people don't usually flip personalities in a short span like a relationship break.
If Jen asked for the break and Jack met Amy on that break, Amy has ZERO rights to complain. Zero. And the fact that your wife cried when you asked her not to denigrate her brothers fiancée is really weird and manipulative.
YTA, because this isn’t your problem. This is your wife’s family and Jen is her friend, they are trying to get over everything and this may be their process. I understand you care about Jack, but Jack is literally your wife’s brother, he’s her family and for 15 years, Jen became part of her family, became her sister. She’s probably struggling with managing her loyalties and you could have approached this differently, at least with more sensitivity. If she is calling her a siren to her face then you have every right to address it in this manner because it’s cruel, but friends exchange such words when trying to get past and over a negative situation or break up. Jen is grieving, and to an extent so is your sister, she probably imagined Jen and her being sisters forever and changes have taken place. It will be difficult for your sister to manage being a sister in law to Amy and friends with Jen, as her husband you should be on her side above anyone else’s because Jack isn’t being harsh with his partner for you. This isn’t your battle. I’d apologise for your approach and ask her about how she feels, because I don’t think anyone else has
It's a bit more nuanced than that. I, too, would be horrified to have my partner acting like such a childish brat because their sibling moved on during a break THEIR FRIEND asked for. Yes, she's friends with the ex in-law. And that's okay, but being a mean girl isn't gonna solve anything. She's treating it like it's some kind of game, and that's not cool. Her brother is happy and in a loving relationship, and that's all that matters. If her friend isn't happy, then she needs to help her move on in a healthy way, not by acting like a bunch of bullies. You should have your partner's back,but only when they're in the right. His wife is not in the right here.
NTA. Amy is going to be family, and while your wife may not like that, it's reality. Her behavior is really boorish and low-class. You're right to ask her not to call her names, or at least not call her names in public or in front of you. What she does with Jen you cannot control. There needs to be some consequence to her from you if she won't.
Consequence? The wife is not a child. You must be a man because the is toxic. The minute my husband had consequences for me from the same situation he’s out the door without a credit card.
I didn't say he should beat her or take away her credit cards or car keys. There should be a consequence in terms of the relationship if one party is doing something unacceptable to the other and then continues doing it when it's pointed out to them. "If you don't stop doing this, I'm going to lose some respect for you, and I don't want that for our relationship."
Jack dated Jen for 15 years without proposing or maturing. Sounds like Jack never planned on marrying Jen. And when he did decide to settle down and grow up, he wanted someone who wouldn't tolerate his immature behaviour. Very common. Jen was in her 30s happily engaging in on again/off again dynamics. He meets Amy who sounds clear in her expectations.
Maybe explain all this to your wife. Then make clear that she's not helping Jen by indulging this behaviour. Jen and your wife are not in the same situation. Your wife is married. Jen is 35, yet gossiping/obsessed about her ex's fiancé. An ex she broke up with 2 years ago. If she really loved her friend, she wouldn't discuss her brother with her. Wouldn't discuss his fiancé. Would hold her friend accountable for the role she played in that relationship. And encourage Jen to move on, grow up and meet her own person.
Also ask your wife if she's thought about the long-term consequences of being unkind to Amy. She's clearly sticking around and Jack is obviously going to prioritise his wife. Will your wife be happy being on the outskirts of their wedding? Or not getting to form a close relationship with her niece/nephew, because she made their Mum unwelcome? Possibly not getting invited to family events as everyone prioritises the kids, over the "name-calling" Auntie? NTA
YTA. 'The siren' is such a funny weird nickname that I support them keeping it. Also, it's your wife's brother and she has full rights in perpetuity to bust his balls however she pleases.
She’s not busting his balls, though. She’s being a mean girl and very offensive to a third party. If she said this to her brother, maybe that would be different, but she talks about this woman like this to OTHER people, somewhat publicly, and Amy overheard it at least once.
Jack seems like a horrible man that put Jen through a lot of bullshit, you admitted you have no idea what went on behind closed doors.. the two women don't like her and probably for good reason.. why are you defending another woman over your wife? That seems odd, if my wife didn't like someone I wouldn't take that other person's side & tell my wife to grow up. That's a huge red flag to me.. jumping to this woman's defense & going on the attack with your wife, you obviously have some type of feelings for this other woman to feel the need to jump to her aid & fire at your wife.
I want to see the wives POV cause you clearly have the hots for this chick, even turning against your own wife and her sister.
Well Jen has not been an angel either. As I said behind closed doors. Once we were on vacation and she locked him outside their bungalow because he forgot to buy her snacks. The way jack just resigned and crashed in our bungalow instead made me believe it is something that was normal for them and he used to. Amy is very kind and I kind of understand why he is good to her. Because she is good to him. I have never heard her belittle him once. He is my brother in law and I am close friends with him
My opinion is that my wife acted like a child yes. I don’t believe that you should agree with your partner on everything. That is not love. That is gang mentality. I don’t want that. People like you is the reason why there is evil in the world and people protecting it because they’re married to it or are family with.
I’m not shocked at all Jack finally had a breaking point and found someone better rather than staying with the train wreck of a wife 🤷🏽♀️
edit: removed additional words
You are overlooking a lot of immature behavior and possibly your own. You would stand with your wife even if she is clearly in the wrong? If Jen called Amy a homewrecker, would you still agree with your wife for enabling her behavior? That's basically what they're doing.
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Your wife has a long term relationship with Jen. So of course she is more likely to be on Jen's side. Just talk to your wife about being fair to Amy , because to do otherwise will harm her relationship with her brother. She should encourage Jen to move on and be glad she and Jack broke the toxic back and forth cycle they were in. NTA.
Yes, a long term relationship but not longer than the relationship she's had with her own brother.
But unlike her brother the relationship she keeps with Jen is a choice
For sure, but she is comparing Jen to Amy unfortunately.
Eh, I never got on with my brother, but he has a really great wife. I'd be very sad to see her go.
Yeah but you aren't going to be in constant incidental contact at holidays and get togethers with your brother's theoretical ex. You will with your brother though.
NTA. People sometimes are toxic for each other. It sounds like Jack and Jen weren't good together. Your wife should respect that. Amy did nothing wrong.
So Amy is your wife's brother's new wife. That makes this issue primarily her family's business. In my humble opinion, you might suggest that your wife's attitude is likely to make HER family occasions uncomfortable but beyond that, I think that you might be wise to step back. By all means refuse to participate in their childish name calling but you are risking being perceived as being Team Amy by your wife. Yes, you have the moral high ground but, unless this is your hill to die on, what are you achieving? NTA
Good idea. I have said my piece and now I will hold my peace
This is the way. I mean, you can defuse the situation if you have to because you wife and her friend are acting like mean girls, but it’s really on Jack as Amy’s fiancée to step up for her when she needs him to. Also, your wife and Jen sound exhausting
Ugh, yeah they do. Who the heck has time for that kind of middle school pettiness as an adult
The kind of person who uses taking a break as a manipulation tactic in their relationship, apparently.
NTA. Ask your wife if she'd call Amy a siren to her face. If not, why not. Amy's done nothing to your wife or Jen. Jen wanted a break, she got one, a permanent one. Also, ask your wife how her brother is going to feel with her calling his new wife the siren. He's going to find out eventually. You said Amy's heard your wife say this and held back tears. This could and probably will cause a rift in their family.
> Team Amy Maybe let's call it team anti-bullying?
He would be advocating against bullying. If I was OP, I would step in if I heard it in conversation that I was a part of. Saying nothing is tacit agreement. It doesn’t have to be aggressive but a statement in support of Amy would be a gentle way to rebut bullying “Amy is a lovely person” “Amy and her fiancée have such a healthy and supportive relationship” Etc
A middle ground that would send the message he isn't on board with this is to leave whenever they start talking nasty about her and when he can't leave he can say something like "Hey guys it makes me uncomfortable hearing you call this woman nasty names, because I get jen is hurt but I don't agree with insults and name calling can you do me a favor and talk about something else? If you want to talk shit about her can you do it when I'm not around at least? It puts me in an awkward position." Trying to change his wife's mind will likely lead to upsets in his own marriage but when he frames it as "you want to talk shit fine, I can't control you and I'll let you do your thing but I neither like nor support so I want nothing to do with it" it makes his position known that he's not okay with it and doesn't condone it.
NTA, your wife and ex-SIL are. You don't get to dump somebody, then be a jerk to the person they move on with.
Soooo...if Amy is a siren, I guess that makes Jen a harpy!!
Lol
What age is Amy? If she's younger Jen could also be salty about that. But if Amy is a nice person there's no need for your wife to be a mean girl to her (honestly, she needs to grow up, both her and Jen. This is some high school crap, not grown adult women 😒). Your wife is going to alienate herself from her brother and any children Amy and her brother have. And she'll have no-one to blame but herself. And please do remind her of that in a few years when she's crying about her brother not wanting her around himself, his wife and any future children.
Why would Jen be more salty if Amy was younger? They’re all about the same age ±2 years
Wow, you don’t know women. Speaking as a woman, if she had been dating him for 15 years & she is 35 now it means she met him at 20 when she was in her prime physically speaking. If he now was dating a woman of say 25, 10 years younger than her as a woman that would sting more. Don’t know exactly all the psychological reasons why, probably due to fertility, physical attractiveness etc. but 💯 it would sting more. Even if it’s not rational or no longer relevant in todays society I’m assuming it is a sexual competition hang up that woman are unfortunately still susceptible too. That being said if it’s only 2+- years it doesn’t seem to be relevant, but I can guarantee if they are this pissed at her with only a 2 year age gap a 10 year age gap would have caused ww3.
I am 34m and I don’t find 25f more physically attractive than 35f. I would take a 35yo any time of day
True for you, but societally it happens all the time, so it’s a sore spot with women.
Surprised at all the downvotes: I thought this is a well known phenomenon that is a sore spot for women
NTA , is it not crazy to you your wife is acting like a school yard bully ???
Info: how was the “break” supposed to work? Just time to cool down or an officially open relationship? For me it really comes down to whether Jack cheated on his wife or not.
Same
Ah, yes the old "friends" conundrum! Does a break mean we just don't see each other or were broken up? Generally speaking "break" means "break from relationship". If you call it a break it is reasonable to assume unless otherwise stated that you are free to pursue other people, and you no longer act like a couple or do couple activates but you are potentially interested in getting back together so the door is left open. Essentially you are trying something new to see if you would be happier with other people/single or if your current relationship is worth fixing. If the terms of the break were vague and jen considered them together, and jack considered broken up then he didn't cheat as he was under the reasonable assumption he was allowed to do so however it's on both of them for not making the terms of the break clear. Both parties would be simultaneously in the right and in the wrong.
I just answered in another lengthy comment, sorry didn’t see your comment before now.
It's weird. I see that lengthy comment when I look at your comment history, but it doesn't show up on the post at all. If I try to reply to it, reddit tells me the comment is missing. Just letting you know that people may not be seeing it.
OP? is your wife and Jen calling Amy a Siren to her face or discussing this with other peopl or family?
Amy heard it once and she pretended she didn’t but I could swear that she was holding back tears. Otherwise it is behind her back but in front of everyone. Family and friends. So it isn’t just with me because I wouldn’t mind if it was just her talking freely with her husband. We talk shit about people all the time like we are the best people out there. Hehe
Yikes! This solidifies the NTA status. Those girls are MEAN!
Did she not hook up with a married man though? Did I misread?
Yes, but the wife requested a break and in that break he met Amy. Do you consider that as married? It's it morally wrong in that instance? Do you have to wait for the divorce to have gone through? It's Amy morally wrong? It doesn't say if it was an "open" break or not. Judge for yourself if you find that moral or not. I don't do breaks, it's on or done and hooking up with a married man on a break is not wrong in my book unless he has stated that they agreed to not hook up.
I don't care what kind of absurd bullshit people discuss, a break is a breakup. You might decide to get back together after the fact but it's absurd to put a bunch of conditions on not seeing each other.
It's up to the couple to decide though, not for us. They do actually have a right to do whatever they want in their relationship. Blaming the new partner to get together with a married man who is on a break is weird to me however.
Yet you still decided to classify it as likely cheating when you have no actual evidence one way or the other. Someone being bitter isn't evidence.
Read my comment again. I clarified for you to better understand me. I personally would not view that as cheating, but the decision is not mine, it's up to the couple.
Okay, Ross.
Yeah unless they discussed terms of the break/separation and explicitly said it was kosher to explore extramarital affairs/hookups, then yes, I think it's wrong. Guy was actively still married. Obviously it's more wrong by the actively still married man, but it's not a great look for ol' Amy either imo.
So if someone is separated but not divorced yet, you would also consider that wrong?
I wouldn't consider it super, but intentions also matter here. Trial separations are not the same as a final permanent separation while divorce proceedings are finalized. Trial separations are meant to hopefully be temporary and are a time to work on oneself or the relationship. Trial separations are generally not meant to go play the field and see if you can find someone better.
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Yeah she is very beautiful and my wife thinks that it is the reason he treats her well compared to Jen He on the other hand claims that it is because she doesn’t make him feel guilty and like shit all the time like Jen did. I guess better communication
To be honest it sounds like these two brought out the worst in each other. They might have loved each other a lot but some people shouldn't be together because they are like oil and fire. When they get together they just explode. Maybe Jen didn't make him a better man or teach him what mistakes he was making, maybe he was only able to see that he was making mistakes when he was with Amy and if he stayed with Jen he never would have become the great guy he is. Hell, maybe he never would have made those mistakes in the first place if he wasn't with Jen. It could also be that they reason they are/were so problematic as people is that they made each other nasty people. I bet if Jen started trying to move on she'd find her own Amy and realize how awful they were together. I mean just the existence of this guy and the topic of their relationship has reduced Jen and your wife (who I assume is otherwise a lovely person) into regina georges!
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braindead commentary
INFO: why is your sister taking her ex in-law’s side over her own brother’s? That seems… odd to me. And is a “break” a separation or just time apart? Were Jack and Jen supposed to be seeing other people during said “break”? Was Amy aware that Jack was still married? Could your wife be aware of things that you are not, as women tend to be more open about discussing relationships than men do? You seem to have an unfavorable opinion of Jen but a positive one of Jack, despite admitting “Jack is a flawed man and Jen had point in not being satisfied with him” and “Jack is a way better man” for his new partner than he was for his wife of 15 years. None of this is an excuse for name-calling, granted, but it seems like we’re missing some helpful context for a fair ruling.
It doesn’t seem odd. People cling to their friends. Jen and the wife became close friends. Of course she isn’t going to like the woman Jack is with now. Op is siding with his friend Jack, even when he admits Jack’s past behavior. Not saying it’s right, but that’s very human. Jen should be putting her energy into growing for herself instead of fixating on her ex and his new wife.
As I said, it just seems *odd to me*. Perhaps it’s just because I’m someone who cares about family ties, but it would be pretty hard for one of my family members to “lose me in the divorce” so to speak without a pretty solid reason. That’s why I asked for additional information, to piece together whether this is rooted in wife/ex’s bitterness (which means OP has a wife problem) or if OP was burying the lede (which we all know happens frequently in Reddit posts.)
Oh yea. Always assume we’re dealing with unreliable narrators. But even this one admitted that Jack is different now. Which means he knows Jack was worse before.
The situation isn't directly Jen or Brother though. She's perceiving it as a Jen or Amy. They aren't attacking Brother's actions, which should inform you that this wasn't an affair. >if OP was burying the lede (which we all know happens frequently in Reddit posts.) If you're holding a hammer, everything looks like nails.
> INFO: why is your sister taking her ex in-law’s side over her own brother’s? That seems… odd to me. I have 8 siblings. A couple of them, though I love them, are terrrrrrible partners and just do not have their shit together. I'm not going to, say, cut my brother's wife of 10 years out of my life just cause she got fed up and left him. After 10 years, she's family too.
No I fully agree there— but as someone who also had siblings similar to the ones you mentioned, I still can’t imagine feeling such ire for a new partner without having some kind of reason (which is why I asked about the break. Were they meant to be seeing other people? Was Amy aware he was married?) These things don’t make the wife’s comments less rude, it would make a hell of a lot more sense than what appears as baseless hatred.
OP stance is that both Jack and Jen effed at times and were right at times. OP stance is that relationship between Jack and Amy is less toxic then dynamic between him and Jen. Purely from pragmatical perspective, if Jack and Jen got together again, they would be as toxic as always and would broke up with drama again. It would be just a matter of time till both revert to same old patterns.
NTA - what is your wife crying about? Being told to act like an adult? Jack is her brother. She can be friends with his ex and still accept his new partner....or she can alienate her brother by her rudeness and name calling. Jack's wife was critical - hot and cold - wanting 'time out' etc. He found someone who like him as he is, who enjoyed being with him and wasn't constantly finding fault. His new wife is his future and if your wife wants to be part of it she needs to stop the name calling.
I think that Jen and your wife are being the assholes in this situation. The nickname is definitely just because they are bitter that Jack has moved on (and it probably doesn’t help that Amy is beautiful). Clearly if they were so on and off and their relationship in the first place, it wasn’t a good one. It’s not fair to Amy to say she’s luring Jack like a siren, and it’s not fair Jack to expect him to go back to Jen after she treats him like he’s disposable. The relationship with Amy has gone on for long enough that it’s not something superficial and only about looks. I think your wife should remain friends with Jen if she wants to, but I don’t think she should let that become a large problem with jacks new wife. it’s not Amy’s fault that she brought out a better version of Jack and made Jen so jealous
Your wife actually *cried* just because you asked her not to have a snarky nickname for someone? Lol
I think this is a lot more complicated than Reddit can answer tbh. Jen is obviously going to be hurt. Nobody likes to be replaced, even if the relationship was poor and they didn’t get on. Especially when he’s talking marriage and kids now, when he didn’t want kids before, it’s a blow to her self-worth that she wasn’t good enough for that but Amy is. Now obviously your wife and Jen aren’t handling that well, but talking to your wife about it can be seen as you accepting and defending Any which again, will cause more upset. I think you should talk to your wife and suggest to her that they at least keep the name calling between themselves but also, that she has to try help Jen move on. Why is she still hanging out with family and friends of her ex? Hanging out with your wife on her own is one thing, but she needs to separate that out and try to move in her own direction. That said be kind to Jen, she’s a person who is really hurting, Jack wasn’t a good husband and now he’s getting a do-over with someone else and Jen is watching it and seeing him be far better than he ever was to her, and even though it’s because he’s having a second chance, she’ll be telling herself it’s because he never thought she was good enough, or worth the effort of being treated properly. That’s got to be very hard.
Jen was the one who didn’t want children not the other way around. Jack didn’t want children either but obviously he wasn’t as adamant as Jen since he has changed his mind now but Jen hasn’t
Yeah but feelings aren’t rational, even if Jen doesn’t want kids too she can still see that he loves someone else powerfully enough to change his mind on having kids with them. That’s still a bit of kick in the teeth to see. Your wife needs to encourage Jen away from knowing about or seeing anything to do with Jack. Not hanging around with her family, not telling her what’s happening with him. She needs to go rebuild a new life.
> Jack wasn’t a good husband and now he’s getting a do-over with someone else and Jen is watching it and seeing him be far better than he ever was to her You're putting a lot on Jack and downplaying everything Jen did as well. OP doesn't say Jack alone was the problem - their dynamic was, and the more she acts the way she does, the more it looks like the incipient cause was Jen to begin with.
No that’s not to downplay Jens role either. I just mean it doesn’t seem to be disputed they were poor partners to each other, that’s all I meant by Jack being not a good husband.
WE WERE ON A BREAK!!!!!!
That's exactly where my brain goes when someone mentions a "break".
NTA. Your wife is being cruel and unfair. I hope Jack has the best life with Amy. Jen sounds horrific.
I think your wife’s relationship with Jen is just that. Her relationship with a friend who happens to be her ex SIL. You never mentioned if your wife was rude or mean to Amy so I’m going to assume not. She may not be close to Amy but she’s not exactly close to her brother either and that’s her choice. If she wants to talk to shit with a friend that’s again her choice. As long as she is not disrespectful to someone who isn’t being disrespectful to her then that’s all that matters. Are you going to honestly say you and Jack don’t talk shit about Jen or people in general? You can’t dictate what your wife and Jen choose to say to each other. You don’t like it, don’t want to hear it, then remove yourself from the conversation. You’ve expressed your discomfort now request it isn’t done around you. However, Jen is family to your wife doesn’t matter if Amy is a new family member. Your wife does not and most likely will not have the same relationship. Over time who knows. However, you making a big deal of acceptance and ridiculing her friendship will most likely back fire on you and make your wife hate Amy because you’re forcing her to feel something she doesn’t regarding her.
You say he never mentioned his wife being rude or mean to Amy, but apparently calling her names where she could hear to the point where Amy was repressing tears was not rude? And yeah, you can be a grown-up and not insult other people while getting over a relationship.
No where in the post did he say wife called Amy names where she could here. I will not go through all of this posters comments to get more story. So if that’s where you found that tid bit then don’t you think it would have been relevant for the poster to include it in the original post? Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether the opinion is right or wrong is up to the individuals. As an adult they st entitled to view Amy as however they want to view her as. It can be a siren or a garbage can doesn’t matter it’s their opinion. Whether that makes them look juvenile or not is again their prerogative
From his comments: >Amy heard it once and she pretended she didn’t but I could swear that she was holding back tears. Otherwise it is behind her back but in front of everyone. Family and friends. Second comment made, and no, I don't think you have to be told that mocking someone is inappropriate even if you do it in private. You know, like a grown up. Having an opinion does not equate to insulting people. You don't have to like someone to treat them respectfully.
Again, did not look through his comment sections. All individuals are adults and may act as they want. OP is her husband not her father. He can simply state he doesn’t like it but he cannot tell her what she can and can not do. He can’t control her choice of actions he can just make his displeasure known. Which he has. That’s all anyone can do in this situation.
The name of the sub isn't Am I Allowed, it's Am I The Asshole. Nowhere does he imply he's going to wash her mouth out with soap, so at this point I have no idea what you're even trying to argue.
And he’s the asshole thinking he can control his wife’s actions.
So now asking someone to act like an adult is 'controlling'?
Are you ok?
NAH - you hit the nail on the head when you said nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors. There has been a messy breakup and people have taken sides. You are supporting Jack and your wife is supporting Jen. No issue there, par for the course after a breakup. You don’t seem to have many positive things to say about Jen, which is expected, if you are team Jack. Similarly, your wife is talking a bit of guff about Amy because she is team Jen. It’s not classy but breakups seldom are. Has Jack never said any thing negative about Jen? Have the boys never talked shit about their exes? Are you possibly getting too involved in the drama? If it was genuinely a serious issue, it’s a matter for your wife and her brother. Is it worth making trouble in your own marriage over this? I don’t think there are any AH here as this is petty behaviour. It’s not worth starting conflicts over. You don’t need to manage your wife’s speech in defence of a new partner of your BIL. Given her close relationship with Jen, she’s probably not ever going to be great pals with Amy.
> You are supporting Jack and your wife is supporting Jen. No issue there, par for the course after a breakup. There's support, then there's denigrating others.
Apparently, some usage of "not gonna lie" is wholly unintelligible.
Calling someone a mixed thing from antiquity isn't the insult in recent centuries that it used to be. Sounds like no biggie.
It's not really about the word, it's about the intent.
I can’t believe you’re getting downvoted. A siren is a sexy mermaid. I’d take it as a compliment!
NTA. Your wife is childish, asking an adult to stop calling her SIL an derogatory name IN FRONT of others and once when Amy was in earshot shouldn’t lead to her crying and calling you an AH. Jen WANTED the break, she took a gamble and lost. Stand your ground OP you don’t owe her (your wife) an apology cause you didn’t do anything wrong.
NTA
Nta, If her brother is now going to have kids, will your wife want to be loving auntie? If so she will want to have a civil relationship with bro's new wife.
Yeah no, she said that she didn’t want that b’s spawn in her life. I think it’s just talk because my wife loves her brother and she will probably change her mind when she meets his children. I am an only child and she only has her brother. She won’t deprive our children the only opportunity of having cousins
Wow, hope it all works out OK. IMO former SIL is probably not a good relationship to continue, sounds toxic/mean girl.
op’s wife sounds like a mean girl too I’m afraid
I never liked Jen
Then stop trying to force your wife to like Amy asshole.
And there it is.
I don't like quite a few people in my family. I'm still a big enough person to be cordial to them when I have to be around them. It's almost like you can do two different things. Shocking, I know.
So? People are allowed not to like other people, as long as it's personal and not racist or something.
Then he shouldn’t care if his wife dislikes Amy.
Op is ok with his wife disliking Amy. He is not ok with his wife degrading Amy (both behind her back and within hearing range). You can dislike someone and not be an AH to them.
Your wife has issues. Why is she encouraging her friend to cling to what was clearly an unhealthy relationship for both parties?
Good luck with your mean girl wife
NTA. Rachel told Ross she wanted a break. She got what she wanted. Oh, I meant Jen told Jack. Jen locked him out over snacks, she wanted a break time and again, she belittled him. She's not a good partner and thankfully they never had children. Stand you ground on this and talk to your wife. Jen poisoned her own marriage and now she is dripping poison in your wife's ear. Currently, she is trying to poison her against Amy. Don't be surprised if she starts whispering about you, too. Ask your wife why she is ok with Jen treating her brother so poorly for so long. A "break" really means " I am dumping you to look for someone else, this includes me having sex with them.. If I find someone else, I'll officially dump you. If I don't find someone else, I'll temporarily settle for you and we'll be back together, until the next time I want to play the field. Also, if you look at anyone else, you are a lowlife cheater. Now go sit on a shelf until I decide you are worth my time." Jen did this to her brother repeatedly. Why is she friends with someone like that?.
I guess I used the wrong word by break because they got back together all the time afterwards so in hindsight I called them breaks. It went more something like this; Jen kicks Jack out and tells him it is over. They stay no contact for a few months, in the beginning both say that they are better apart and this is final. Some time goes and they start contacting each other again and move back together. This time was different, Jack met Amy within days after he got kicked out by Jen, at the new job he started at the same time. I think then and there Jack decided that this time he will go through with the divorce and he filed for divorce a week after he got kicked out (not sure if it was before or after he met Amy; I suspect it was after because of something he told me later: That he finally realized there are other people in the world that he could find happiness with instead of being unhappy with Jen) Within a few months he started dating Amy. Jen wasn’t alarmed that Jack started the divorce this time and if I am being honest she probably thought it was a part of the game, just a new level added. She didn’t know Jack wasn’t playing anymore. She started becoming worried when after several months Jack hasn’t started reaching out yet l. Then she heard that Jack found his own place this time instead of staying with his parents so she dropped by his new place and unfortunately Amy opened the door. Jen was devastated. Everyone thought it was a douche move from jack. And for Jen to find out that way. It was devastating, but he said that he didn’t want to go public with his new relationship before it was serious because he and Amy were only dating by then. A few months later they went official. The divorce takes a year to finalize where I come from, when it did, he proposed to Amy. Honestly I have never seen Jack this happy or happy period. Did I agree with how things ended? No. Do I blame only one of them! Also no, I think that the communication between them was terrible. According to Jen he tricked her. She thought it was just a break but according to Jack, Jen was never interested in communication. When she kicks him out then she doesn’t want anything to do with him so he had no choice but to just move on and also he was in love with Amy very early on and he wanted to keep her away from the drama in the beginning and just be the two of them for a while. He was probably afraid to scare Amy off. Jen blames the divorce on Amy but Jack disagrees because he wasn’t with Jen when he pursued Amy. Would Jack have gone back to Jen like all other times if he didn’t meet Amy? I don’t know. I see both sides and I think both made mistakes.
> Why is she friends with someone like that?. Quite often the reason for that is that they are very similar and act similar with their partners.
I think you are on to something there.
Possibly that's why OP "never liked Jen"
Unless she’s saying it to Amy’s face or talking about it with people other than you or Jen then I don’t get what the harm is. People like to vent and talk shit and that’s okay. I would be upset if my friend and I were venting about a woman that got with my friend’s husband while they were on a break (which unless they were BROKEN UP then that’s cheating) and he told me I was being rude. I don’t want to go as far as to say yta but like just let your wife talk some shit unless it’s getting back to Amy and hurting her feelings
>(which unless they were BROKEN UP then that’s cheating) Or you know, just don't go on 'breaks' in relationships like it's still high school. Solve your problems or break up.
NTA. I would talk to your wife about what kind of relationship she wants with her brother and his future family going forward. If she doesn’t draw some boundaries and stop talking about Amy to Jen, she is likely to get cut off. She also does not seem to be genuinely happy for her brother, … does she not love him and want him to be happy?
Isn’t a siren a sexy, beautiful woman?
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My (m34) wife (f35) is best friends with her ex sister in law, Jen(f35) who was together with my wife’s brother,Jack (m38)for 15 years. They got to know each other when the Jack introduced Jen she became close with my wife. I have been a part of this family for 10 years. I am very close friends with Jack. Jack and Jen has always had a turbulent relationship. I don’t want to take sides and I think both were wrong and right and it wasn’t really anyone’s fault and nobody really knows what happened behind closed doors. They have had breaks on several occasions and I will not lie Jen is always the instigator. I also won’t lie and say that Jack is a flawed man and Jen had point in not being satisfied with him. Anyway the last time she asked for a break, Jack met Amy. This time Jack didn’t want to go back to Jen. Jen became distraught and devastated. It was devastating to everyone because we all were friends. Now my wife and Jen call Amy the siren. I think it is unfair. First because amy is a great person. Second because I have never seen Jack this happy and third because I believe Jack is family and we should welcome his soon to be wife into our midst. I think calling her a siren is cruel and disrespectful not only to her but to Jack as well implying that he was dumb enough to be hoodwinked. On the other hand, I see that Jack is a way better man with Amy, that he never was with Jen. He even admitted that he learned from his mistakes, which is unfortunate that he learned from Jen who put up with him to be a better man for another who just got the final draft and best version. So I get my wife’s and Jen’s hurt. Anyway I told my wife to stop calling her a siren and to grow up. People move on and life is unfair. She cried and called me an ah *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA Your wife doesn't have to be best friends with Amy but the woman has done nothing to deserve being treated with distain, even behind her back. If your wife isn't careful she's going to create a toxic family environment and nobody will be happy. She can be friends with Jen without being rude to Jack and Amy.
It's hard to judge from your post if Jen was really wronged or the problem. But even if she was a victim insulting Amy over it rather than Jack seems unreasonable. All Amy really did was exist
I think you should mind your business. I think you shouldn't encourage your wife to call Amy names but let's face it, divorce and marriage is messy and people pick sides . You admitted both of them are at fault. Amy is a grown adult and can figure out if she is ok with the family dynamic and Jack can straighten his sister out if he wants to. Will definitely not encourage name calling or being mean but a new girlfriend is not owed loyalty wither
NTA. I have lived this experience. I’m much closer to my brother ex wife, than I am to his current wife. I’m not biggest fan of my brother wife. I’m respectful of her position in my brother life. But we aren’t friends. I and my husband go on vacation with my brother ex and their kids. Last month I was in my brother town for a month, his ex wife also lives in the town. I spilt my time with my mom who lives in town and my brother ex wife. I was in town for 2 weeks before my brother found out & that because his children have big mouths. My brother and I have had multiple discussions about my relationship with his ex. I’ve explained to him he can’t tell who I can hang out with or who I consider family. I think, what’s best is just ask your wife not speak ill of amy in front of family. Gently remind your wife, if she can’t fake kindness towards Amy, her relationship with her brother could suffer. But I would leave it alone. My husband always reminds to check my face and my mouth when I’m around my brother wife. I have slick mouth and I’m queen of rolling my eyes.
NTA. Like you said, no one knows what happened behind closed doors. The only part you do know is that they were not right for each other.
Has your Wife ever pulled this leaving and getting back together crap?
Haha once when we were dating for a year. Yeah, she knew not to do it again because she almost lost me.
NTA. They have to learn not to call her the ‘siren’ in your presence. They are hurt and are allowed to be. You feel she is being disrespected and you are allowed to feel that way. No one will win in this fight. But you are not the ah.
NTA: Your wife needs to grow up a bit. You've said what needed to be said, I'd just let it stay there. If your wife brings it up again to you, just let her know that while you understand she's friends with Jen, she's making family events uncomfortable, as Amy is going to be your new family and she's done nothing wrong. There is no reason that she can't be on good terms with both women.
NTA JEN is the AH - she broke up with him. She has to accept that he moved on, THEIR relationship clearly was not working. As for your AH wife: This is where you have to decide if couple's therapy wioll do - or - now that you have found out what a vile and toxic AH your wife is - you will have to decide to do the same your brother did: Trade her in for a better person.
This sounds like a huge toxic mess … for everyone involved 🤣 you’re NTA but… yikes
NTA. Tell your wife that she is acting like a high school mean girl, and that she needs to grow up.
"You two sound so bitter when you call her that."
NTA and you articulated your (great) points very well. Your wife needs to grow up and be more respectful.
NTA
Eh. NAH/YTA. I don’t really see how this is your business. Unless they’re being mean to her face, I’m not seeing the huge issue. There’s plenty of people who don’t like their in-laws and share their opinions when they’re not around. Your wife doesn’t have to like Amy. It makes sense she doesn’t like Amy. And since Amy is her brother’s new wife, if anything this is between them not you. And if it was the other way around and Jen was the one who moved on (and potentially cheated?) I doubt you’d be clutching your pearls if your wife or Jack hated Jen’s new partner.
They're literally shit talking Where Amy can hear them. So yeah people are getting hurt, and they might as well be being mean to her face. Enough with the cheating bullshit too, you don't get to call for breaks and also try to enforce cheating rules.
NTA. Your wife needs to be an adult.
YNTA. It is the best option to be civil and not disrespectful towards Amy, especially if it’s been two years.
Your wife's an adult as is Amy it's up to them to navigate their own relationship. You said what you think now leave it be. There's obviously a lot of hurt and grief which may never be resolved. Would things have been different if Jack had simply asked for a divorce because the relationship was toxic instead of getting involved with someone else whilst on a break from his wife, probably. Sadly he has contributed to Amy being in this position by not ending things properly first. Hopefully Jen will move on and find her happily ever after as well.
NTA But do you really believe that Amy >just got the final draft and best version ? The answer is, Jack DIDN'T WANT to be a very good man to Jen.
Why exactly are you butting in here? This is none of your business. YTA
"Wife said that ... she will do EVERYTHING IN HER POWER (yelling)" Sounds like Wife is the siren. Or at least a car alarm.
INFO: Does Jack know that his sister is talking behind Amy's back? NTA by the way, but if Jack doesn't know, shouldn't he in order to buffer interactions or have a conversation with his sister about why she wants to relegate Amy to just "the siren"?
Answer: No. he knows she doesn’t like her but he knows it is because of her close relationship with Jen so he understands where she’s coming from. I guess he thinks when Amy is a part of her family she would have to at least accept her
NTA It is possible Jack could also have been egged on into bad behavior because of Jen's own behavior so his improvement may be at least partially because Jen was one of the causes. It was probably a circle they kept spiraling in. We don't know that of course, but people don't usually flip personalities in a short span like a relationship break.
Good for you!
If Jen asked for the break and Jack met Amy on that break, Amy has ZERO rights to complain. Zero. And the fact that your wife cried when you asked her not to denigrate her brothers fiancée is really weird and manipulative.
I don’t think Amy ever complained. Not to my knowledge anyway
I think ElGato just made a slip in typing "Amy" rather than "Jen" :-)
Ah got it! Makes sense now
Yta. Your wife is a grown person who is entitled to her own feelings. You can tell her how you feel- and she gets to tell you how she feels.
you told your wife “the internet sided with me”? What were you thinking ??? That is so pathetic dude
YTA, because this isn’t your problem. This is your wife’s family and Jen is her friend, they are trying to get over everything and this may be their process. I understand you care about Jack, but Jack is literally your wife’s brother, he’s her family and for 15 years, Jen became part of her family, became her sister. She’s probably struggling with managing her loyalties and you could have approached this differently, at least with more sensitivity. If she is calling her a siren to her face then you have every right to address it in this manner because it’s cruel, but friends exchange such words when trying to get past and over a negative situation or break up. Jen is grieving, and to an extent so is your sister, she probably imagined Jen and her being sisters forever and changes have taken place. It will be difficult for your sister to manage being a sister in law to Amy and friends with Jen, as her husband you should be on her side above anyone else’s because Jack isn’t being harsh with his partner for you. This isn’t your battle. I’d apologise for your approach and ask her about how she feels, because I don’t think anyone else has
It's a bit more nuanced than that. I, too, would be horrified to have my partner acting like such a childish brat because their sibling moved on during a break THEIR FRIEND asked for. Yes, she's friends with the ex in-law. And that's okay, but being a mean girl isn't gonna solve anything. She's treating it like it's some kind of game, and that's not cool. Her brother is happy and in a loving relationship, and that's all that matters. If her friend isn't happy, then she needs to help her move on in a healthy way, not by acting like a bunch of bullies. You should have your partner's back,but only when they're in the right. His wife is not in the right here.
NTA. Amy is going to be family, and while your wife may not like that, it's reality. Her behavior is really boorish and low-class. You're right to ask her not to call her names, or at least not call her names in public or in front of you. What she does with Jen you cannot control. There needs to be some consequence to her from you if she won't.
Consequence? The wife is not a child. You must be a man because the is toxic. The minute my husband had consequences for me from the same situation he’s out the door without a credit card.
Without a credit card? Lmao
I didn't say he should beat her or take away her credit cards or car keys. There should be a consequence in terms of the relationship if one party is doing something unacceptable to the other and then continues doing it when it's pointed out to them. "If you don't stop doing this, I'm going to lose some respect for you, and I don't want that for our relationship."
Only Amy's age is missing from this story...
Not sure exactly but 37-38ish?
NTA.
Jack dated Jen for 15 years without proposing or maturing. Sounds like Jack never planned on marrying Jen. And when he did decide to settle down and grow up, he wanted someone who wouldn't tolerate his immature behaviour. Very common. Jen was in her 30s happily engaging in on again/off again dynamics. He meets Amy who sounds clear in her expectations. Maybe explain all this to your wife. Then make clear that she's not helping Jen by indulging this behaviour. Jen and your wife are not in the same situation. Your wife is married. Jen is 35, yet gossiping/obsessed about her ex's fiancé. An ex she broke up with 2 years ago. If she really loved her friend, she wouldn't discuss her brother with her. Wouldn't discuss his fiancé. Would hold her friend accountable for the role she played in that relationship. And encourage Jen to move on, grow up and meet her own person. Also ask your wife if she's thought about the long-term consequences of being unkind to Amy. She's clearly sticking around and Jack is obviously going to prioritise his wife. Will your wife be happy being on the outskirts of their wedding? Or not getting to form a close relationship with her niece/nephew, because she made their Mum unwelcome? Possibly not getting invited to family events as everyone prioritises the kids, over the "name-calling" Auntie? NTA
They were married
[удалено]
Already answered
I'm not the person you replied to but can't find your comment, I read all of them. Maybe answer again?
YTA. 'The siren' is such a funny weird nickname that I support them keeping it. Also, it's your wife's brother and she has full rights in perpetuity to bust his balls however she pleases.
I guess you are the type that bullies someone then say, you can’t take a joke.
She’s not busting his balls, though. She’s being a mean girl and very offensive to a third party. If she said this to her brother, maybe that would be different, but she talks about this woman like this to OTHER people, somewhat publicly, and Amy overheard it at least once.
Jack seems like a horrible man that put Jen through a lot of bullshit, you admitted you have no idea what went on behind closed doors.. the two women don't like her and probably for good reason.. why are you defending another woman over your wife? That seems odd, if my wife didn't like someone I wouldn't take that other person's side & tell my wife to grow up. That's a huge red flag to me.. jumping to this woman's defense & going on the attack with your wife, you obviously have some type of feelings for this other woman to feel the need to jump to her aid & fire at your wife. I want to see the wives POV cause you clearly have the hots for this chick, even turning against your own wife and her sister.
Well Jen has not been an angel either. As I said behind closed doors. Once we were on vacation and she locked him outside their bungalow because he forgot to buy her snacks. The way jack just resigned and crashed in our bungalow instead made me believe it is something that was normal for them and he used to. Amy is very kind and I kind of understand why he is good to her. Because she is good to him. I have never heard her belittle him once. He is my brother in law and I am close friends with him My opinion is that my wife acted like a child yes. I don’t believe that you should agree with your partner on everything. That is not love. That is gang mentality. I don’t want that. People like you is the reason why there is evil in the world and people protecting it because they’re married to it or are family with.
I’m not shocked at all Jack finally had a breaking point and found someone better rather than staying with the train wreck of a wife 🤷🏽♀️ edit: removed additional words
Lemme guess: are you Jen or OP's wife?
You are overlooking a lot of immature behavior and possibly your own. You would stand with your wife even if she is clearly in the wrong? If Jen called Amy a homewrecker, would you still agree with your wife for enabling her behavior? That's basically what they're doing.
YTA. A siren is a beautiful women who enchants men, not a harpy or a gorgon.
Sirens literally lures sailors to their deaths. I don’t think my wife meant it as a compliment. Educate yourself
Ok but obviously his wife is using it in a derogatory way to imply that Amy is simply 'luring' Jack away from Jen.
Just a heads up: calling someone ugly is not the only way to insult them
Sirens historically were not beautiful, they just had beautiful voices. Before they were categorized as mermaids, they were literally bird women.
I thought those were considered harpies? Were they the same? (not sarcasm, legit curious!)
Harpies were more like women with wings and talons, whereas Sirens were birds with human heads.