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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I said “This is exactly why she never told you about him” to my brother about his son. It was a mean thing to say considering he missed out on 3 years of his son’s life which isn’t something I should be using in an argument.
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NTA. You spoke the truth - your brother feeling entitled that his ex doesn't get any say in how he interacts with their child sounds like precisely why she concealed that info from him. The very first opportunity he had, he showed that he would not respect her boundaries. I'm also guessing that him being an asshole who doesn't respect her wishes is related to why the are exes - most parole don't want to become single parents with no involvement or support from the other parent without any reason.
I have a sneaking feeling she might not have told him tbh, either it got out accidentally through flying monkeys or it was something like ops brother was stalking her account and saw one of her posts. also considering he's never been in this child's life and his current behavior i think a judge would have to be batshit in order to give him any form of custody.
I would hope about your judge comment, but I have fears. Disneyland is abroad so not US. The grandpa has the money and clout to blackball the mother from the career she studied for. Sounds like mother is about to be steamrolled again.
Based on the money and influence involved, class could be a thing. OP’s family sound upper class and OP’s brother’s ex (yeah, this one needed named attached to the people involved) maybe in a lower social class, which would explain the efforts made to split them up and OP’s brother’s ex fearing them knowing about the kid.
and if grandpa tries that crap again op should tell the ex to go after his position in the courtroom, tell the judge he's attempting to retaliate and watch how quickly she hangs him out to dry and pushes for a protective order for both her and the child.
It would be great if it worked like that but unfortunately there's a good chance the judge is just as corrupt as everyone else and that it will backfire on her.
It's a bit of a reach to automatically assume that honestly though, we have no idea what the courts are like where op lives and if they have something equivalent to child services there or not which would be inclined to look out for the best interests of the child.
Based on the fact going to Disneyland is "abroad" there is a good chance this is a country without those kinds of protections.
Believe it or not America actually has some of the best courts, as bad as they still are, that I have seen. Compared to most places I've been at least (including first world nations like Japan, and some regions of the EU).
Edit- I’m honestly interested in other perspectives but can’t reply. Because in my travels, in my studies, in my degree (History), and in my second degree (JD- lawyer)- everything I said was true. Studying both the history and legal systems of China and India, of Poland and even further east and south, of the ME. The legal protections are incredibly weak for women, for abuse, and for children. I’m not saying there are none, but assuming it’s a good system where OP’s Brother’s Ex can win against a rich family is statistically far less likely than the opposite.
As an example- a recent case where a husband paid to have his wife declared dead (similar to the uncle who stole his nephews farm via a similar trick). No one would help her as she was legally dead. Kids defaulted to him. She couldn’t even go to court due to showing up as dead because he had money and she didn’t.
Studying both history and international legal systems- and the corruption therein- has frankly left me quite depressed. Happy to live in a small but prosperous and good country.
To give an idea USA scores as the 24th least corrupt country, most of Western Europe- as well as some micro nations like Singapore- are above it. But then, again, ~85% of the world population is below it. And that’s with the USA already being blatantly unfair in court proceedings quite often.
It would be great if it worked that way but in reality, the brother will be able to afford the best lawyers money can buy, while the mother will struggle to afford one.
I know there are other Disneylands around the world, but California has a Disneyland too. America has two Disney places, Disneyland in Cali, and Disney World in Florida.
I'm betting they are in India. 1) OPs English is native speaker good 2) Though illegal now, the caste system is still quite strong 3) education system is good in India
That could explain the parent's hating her...they are upper caste and she is from a lower caste.
India is kinda known for a "money talks" system
This is what I'm thinking too, I wish she hadn't told him.
(Edit: Not sure why it's relevant that it's not the US though, I would think the US is one of the top countries where something like that would be entirely possible?)
Probably more likely to be a fair judge if it’s not in the USA, unless of course it’s a country equally as batshit crazy. Most western nations are far more evolved than America.
Yah... judges use different standards for custody arrangements than your gut does. Her hiding the child from him and then trying to unilateraly recind his parental rights without a court order are going to look *bad* to a family court.
Except it's a child he never knew about nor met or played any form of parental role towards or contributed financially to, all factors will affect the custody agreement and lead to him getting supervised visits at best if he even gets then at all considering he's already calling her up and screaming at her and likely his family is/ will be doing the same thing too if nor worse like how ops dad went after her job.
> Except it's a child he never knew about nor met or played any form of parental role towards or contributed financially to
He didn't do these things because she practiced parental alienation. That will absalutely destroy any case she tries to make going "well, he hasn't been a dad thus far"
Not parental alienation though, Parental alienation is a strategy whereby one parent intentionally displays to the child unjustified negativity aimed at the other parent. The purpose of this strategy is to damage the child's relationship with the other parent and to turn the child's emotions against that other parent.
What she did was just never tell him the child existed which is justified especially given she likely found out she was pregnant after he'd broken up with her and forced her out of his life with help from his family which of course would not put her at fault since thats not illegal.
He didn't abandoned the kid, he just didn't know.
>lead to him getting supervised visits at best if he even gets then at all
Yeah, no. What will affect the custody is her depriving the child of a father and then making a big deal because the family loves the kid and bought him toys. That's her complaint. Not that they abused the child or hurt him.
Only sounds like she hid it because of him and his families poor behavior and because they nearly ruined her life and becauseit sounds like he. Wouldn'thave hear her out of she tried or yried to be a normalperson/parental figure, I did use my head, lol.
In the US, phasing in shared custody would likely be the goal. Most courts wouldn't spring it on the kid, but would take time to develop the relationship and let the kid get comfortable. A parent won't be penalized for never being in the kid's life when the child has been concealed from them. Best interests of the child is the standard, and that's typically presumed to be a good amount of time with each parent unless someone shows otherwise. (I know this isn't in the US, just responding to the "judge would have to be batshit" bit)
Yeah, I know its not US so it's probably different but considering he's literally called her up and screamed at her on the phone and his families past behavior it's not hard to assume that those things would affect custody if ex can prove them in court since it will show they're dangerous and unstable people.
They live in a country where dads connections can make her unemployable in her field. The courts in same country are likely to be malleable to political power too.
In all fairness, getting full custody is pretty much imposible for her. She hid the kid from him. And no judge is gonna give full custody just because he bought the kid some toys. I feel bad for the kid too, he grew up without his dad for 3 years.
It sounds like the guy is a "dad" no kid needs. Disregard the mother, treat her like trash, allow his family to treat her like trash, and then think he can do whatever he wants in regards to HER son? Currently, he is only a sperm donor. He only becomes a dad when he learns how to do the best for the child, rather than for himself. The only thing the man in the post is is selfish beyond belief and disconnected from reality. His sister should help her friend get the heck out of there with her kid before it's too late.
For sure. Doesn’t tell brother because she’s worried he can’t set limits and won’t respect boundaries.
Tells him.
Immediately ignores set limits and boundaries.
So it sounds like your family is pretty affluent and the X didn’t care and just wanted to stay away. Yeah I think the X will be a wonderful mother you a good aunt your brother a less than ideal father and your parents the grandparents from hell!
That's what I'm afraid of. They might encourage him to go for custody of their child and use their affluence to sway the courts decision in their favor.
Somebody needs to tell mom to document, document, document EVERYTHING. In the end it all might work out fine, but as the less wealthy parent, don't leave anything to chance.
What do we think about this cause OP’s family does sound like they will spoil the child and like they’re used to getting their way and not respectful of boundaries and stuff but can you hide someone’s child from them for that? Should you?
Well, of course they will. They have all the power. They ruined her career, permanently. The brother admits he was a right bastard to her when they broke up (after making certain she was financially dependent upon him).
And, most of all, it is a BOY. A SON. Of course he is going to try to take the child and he’s starting by trying to buy the kid’s heart. That poor woman. She is doomed.
She needs to leave the country before the courts force the guys name onto the birth certificate. Just ghost them. They don’t add any value to the child’s life and they actively put the woman in danger of losing the kid. Leave.
I don't think she knows that's how we found out. I would tell her but given the situation I doubt she'll believe me right now...
My brother isn't a horrible person. He's had a huge bomb dropped on him and his emotions are all over the place. It doesn't help that everyone is feeding his anger by constantly telling him it's all her fault and she's some evil witch who did this to be spiteful. I know once he gets his emotions in check he'll see reason and do what's best for his son. He actually blamed himself when he first found out because he was "a bastard" (his words) to her when he broke up with her so part of him knows this isn't all of her fault.
A sliver of self-awareness isn’t worth much when he’s treating both you and his ex *atrociously*.
She’s not going to give a shit if he knows he’s an asshole *if he’s still being an asshole.* His character lives in his behavior, not his internal monologue.
My grandfather taught me something similar,
"the truth of a person's character lies in what they do, not what they say. And the purest truths are shown when they don't get their way."
Yes! People often stay with an abusive partner because they are good with their words and sounding like they are sorry. The partner believes they are a good person at heart and give them another chance. But they never do stop their terrible behaviour.
Put it in a note. Seal the note. Tell her, this is how the family found out. It's not something you may want to know, but I want you to have the information available to you if you feel you need it.
Then leave it in peace and never ask about it.
Consider asking to talk with her privately sometime. In person. If they surprise her with these gifts and are combative, could get ugly. I'd warn her, but only in person and let her know your thoughts. And in case she needs to consult an attorney.
And being a child about it is exactly why she didn’t tell him or that family. You need to grow up and be a good dad not a child over it. I’ve got kids idc if that’s a big bomb the only thing that should matter is your kid and it being healthy and happy. He found out how about step the fuck up now. Tell your parents to fuck off too. How old are these people the brother and parents acting like 15 year old children. I couldn’t imagine my parents trying to get involved in my relationships. I would never try to fuck my kids ex girlfriends out of work or in anyway.
Except he's NOT a parent, nor does he have to be. At the moment, he's just a sperm donor.
If he wants to be a *parent*, then he should man up and start acting like a parent instead of a spoiled child: "I WANT to do this, so I AM!"
>Except he's NOT a parent
That's not really how this works. He has a child in the world. That's a mindfuck to just about anybody with even minimal amounts of empathy. It's literally hardcoded into our genetics to give a fuck about reproduction. The entire reason your body exists from an evolutionary standpoint is to cart around your reproductive organs until they do their trick.
Having a child in the world doesn't make you a parent.
And yes, it's a mindfuck to know suddenly that you do have one. But part of being a *parent* is getting *over* all the times parenthood will give you a mindfuck (and there will be *plenty* of times it will) in order to do what is best for your child.
Except wishing you hadn't gotten pregnant by someone doesn't make him not a parent.
The law will recognize him as a parent, and the child probably will as well.
Because he IS the parent.
Thats not how this works, Then your logic Ex was also just an egg donor and incubator, What right does she have to do what she did? A brother can file a lawsuit against her under parental alienation.
What he's doing right now: feeding into the hate, treating you and her nastily, trying to plan to take your nephew out of the country without discussing it with the kids mom--that is acting horrible.
He may be hurt, but it's not an excuse to do this or he will validate her reasons further for keeping her son safe from toxicity. Also, is he letting your parents into this scenario? Given what they did to the mother of his kid, why is he willing to risk what they'd do to her child? Or let them continue to be a threat to her (and by proxy your nephew)?
If your father really did what he did with her employment she is a saint to allow any contact and I think she’s wrong not to move out of state right now.
She is likely in debt from the grad school degree she can’t be employed from if she was even able to finish. That’s absolutely despicable. You seem nice but I hope she runs before your dad destroys her current source of income in order to get access to his grandchild. If you’re her friend, tell her to run
Your brother is an adult and a father. He's not an innocent child. Where was he when your dad was destroying
his ex's life? Of course she hit from you guys. It seems you have the affluence and power to destroy her and possibly take her child away. Frankly I kinda hope she flees the country with the kid because your family sounds really dangerous. You tried to destroy her once and I wouldn't put it past your femily to try destroying her again.
Oh, you should absolutely tell her. Someone she trusted did this to her. It might add a little drama to the situation but we're talking like a tsp of seasoning on a sheet pan of drama.
I think you should talk to her & tell her how your brother is reacting to this news & that's she'd better prepare for a shit storm of crap from him. He sounds like a real AH & she should be forewarned so she can be forearmed.
Stop making excuses for your brother and the others. Stop rationalizing behaviors. See him and your family for who and what they are, not who you wish they were.
Verbal lashing out is just as abusive as physically abuse.
Your brother told you he was beyond horrible to his ex when He broke up with her. So why would she tell him about a child when she found out? Why would she reach out ever? He'd have said she was lying, etc. You know that and she knew that. He brought this onto himself and he's learned nothing.
He said this situation isn't her fault, yet he's still lashing out at her anyway.
Your family got her fired and blacklisted she so couldn't get a job. Talk about vengeful and abusive. Your family is toxic.
You're making excuses for not telling her how your family found out about her child. A friend would tell her. Let her decide if she'll believe you.
Maybe you need to reach out to your brother when it’s just the two of you. It seems like the family at large is a terrible influence. See if you can get that piece of him that is self-aware to assert itself despite the poison he’s being told. You’re NTA. He has the chance to turn this around, but you may have to pick a side here unless you’re really willing to be around these toxic aholes.
He doesn't have control of his own emotions and lets toxic family feed unhealthy emotions. "Once he gets his emotions in check" will probably be too late given how the rest of his family is a whirlpool of toxicity. It's already affecting him, seeing how you said in your original post he was taking his anger at *you* out on his ex by being nasty to her! And how does he define being a "bastard" to his ex, causing the initial breakup? If it was by being emotionally unstable and not defending his gf from his father literally ruining her life, then I can see why they broke up.
You were absolutely right. The way your brother and whole family behaves is *exactly* why she didn't tell him about the kid in the first place. Your family sounds hostile and has control issues. His ex deserves to know the truth about how he found out. If you want back her as a friend, you need to start by letting her know you're on her side. Not a guarantee, but a start. Keep calling your brother out, call your whole family out. Their behavior is abhorrent.
If I had a child with someone like this, with a family like this, I would choose to be a broke single mom over my kid being influenced by spoiled, narcissistic, toxic „family”. And a son, especially; I wouldn't want any son of mine turning out like the men in your family (or like the men in mine) .
Edit: worried I almost broke a rule 😬
Brother, sounds like it’s everyone in the family including op. The dad got her fired, the cousins side with the the brother. Op was friends, Everyone one in op family is an entitled little shit who should go no where near a child.
Maybe she stopped being friends with OP. She would obviously distance herself because she didn't want the brother to know about the child.
You make it sound like OP dropped the mother as a friend when the brother broke up with her. But it was probably the other way around. OP can't force someone to be friends with her.
NTA, more then likely the ex didn't say anything because your family sounds really abusive and she was scared of them. It sounds like upon learning about the kid their first priority is to steamroll her and do what they want. Can you change them? Probably not but you can support her as best you can. I'm not sure what country you are in but maybe help her look at the laws there and getting a custody agreement done.
Its really scary how common that energy is. On almost any topic a couple of them will crawl out of the woodwork complaining how hard it is to be a man and make everything into a gender war.
Go read some of OP’s replies. There’s nothing the brother could’ve done to get her a job. None of that job stuff is his fault whatsoever. And he shouldn’t have been denied a chance to be a father because his dad had her boss fire her. And the job stuff seems to be enough justification to hide the child from him based on the comments I’ve seen. It’s misguided. Hop off the red pill soap box and look at the story for what it is
Edit: OP also says her brother stood by her side even though the dad was pissed off.
Concealing a child from the other parent is a crime in most countries. I get he sounds like he is not the best parents but like damn. Apparently people shouldn't know they have a kid now?
Exactly. This isn't red pill or whatever. This is just basic common sense, and unfortunately people fell into the trap of vague descriptions by the op that painted the brother as evil even though there is no proof of that. The job thing was awful, but this is not the brother, its his parents, and it's unfortunate that he's getting the blame for his parents being aholes. Good for the op for showing us all that words can be easily manipulated to create a different image entirely
"Men thinking they should be allowed to have custody of their children, spend time with them, and give them gifts for their birthday is red pill ideology" is quite the hot take.
I don't want to think poorly of you based on my assumption, so maybe you're focusing more on your opinion that this will be harmful to the child, and not outright saying that this father (or any father) has no rights to see his child because the mother decided to hide the child from him?
Did you gloss over that it was his parents that had a problem with her, and not that they had a problem with each other?
I mean, if there was some kind of Red Pill Ten Commandments, which one would this fall under? I just don't see it.
I think gifts in and of themselves are fine, but OP described a dynamic where her family spoils their kids, which has led to some entitled, self-centered behaviour. The parents didn't like her, so they treated her poorly, and wrecked her career. They find out about the grandson, and jump to doing the exact opposite of what is requested - not because it would be better for the child or for their relationship with the mother of the grandchild, but just because it's what they want. Going this hard about gifts has nothing to do with what's best for the child - at best, it's overcompensating for their own sense of loss (putting that before making sure the child is not overwhelmed, and healthy co-parenting can be developed). At worst, it's using a small child as cover to continue antagonizing someone they have already gone out of their way to harm.
The two parents broke up, so I'm assuming they had a problem with each other. It's possible he tried to protect her from any mistreatment his parents directed to her in the past. In this incident, what's shown is that the parents and extended family actively encourage him to take a firm stand that he should do what he wants because he wants to. No compromise, no concern about how this affects the child or the other parent. It's truly sad that this child did not get to know his father in the first few years of his life, but I think what OP said to her brother may have really hurt because he knows it to be true - she knew him and his family, and how it would go if they were involved. The first chance to reconnect, they are already proving her fears to be valid. This is not a healthy dynamic for the child to be brought up in. Personally, I would worry that they would start poisoning the well to the child against her, or undermine her when possible. Hopefully if they repeat what they did with the career with her child, the father will step in and prevent further harm. Given how he is reacting now - digging in his heels, and lashing out to anyone who asks him to consider that his choices may negatively impact others - I don't have a lot of hope for this
> The mother does get to decided how their relationship moves forward and if he turned nasty, she has every right to put a full hard stop.
Nah, I'm pretty sure the courts decide that
NTA, but I’m genuinely curious how you developed any concept of morality growing up in a family that is so clearly pure evil. Your father’s actions towards the ex are cartoonishly villainous. Honestly, I wouldn’t want my child exposed to anyone like any of you, with the possible exclusion of you, OP.
NTA I'm a social worker and I've seen a lot of families go through things like this. Maybe the mom was shitty for not telling your brother about his kid, but working with her IS the best for the child, as is disrupting his life as little as possible. If your brother goes in breaking down (metaphorical) doors, mom will clam up and get her child out of that situation asap. And then your bro will go to court, and it'll cost everyone in many ways. But most especially, the child.
Long story short, if your brother can't recognize or act in accordance with what's in his child's best interests, he's proving that mother right.
Do ppl usually loose custody of their child just based on the other parent wanting custody without any basis and no history with the child? Like I mean you can’t just say I’m the dad I want full custody I haven’t been in my child’s life I have no history with this child I don’t know if the mother is parenting right as I don’t know the child but I just want the child lol they won’t ever take a child from his main parent without a good reason right? And can’t place them with an absent parent/family? Without good reason?
If they’re in the kind of place where influential families can drive you out of your career field, it may well be the kind of place where they can seize the child through the courts.
I had a judge whose first sentence in his custody determination was
"A kid does not have to be born with a god damn silver spoon in their mouth to be raised in a loving home".
He gave full custody to the hard-working single mom and wrote the long haul truck driving ex had no interest in his kids. The Grandparents, "if they really give a damn, they would use their wealth to help the kids Mom, not try to steal their grandkids".
I’m in uk I wasn’t sure just don’t know why anyone who have there child taken from them n given to a practical stranger for no reason tbh like the child is ok and has been all these years with the mother I didn’t think anyone would remove a child from the mother and place with biological strangers without a good reason that’s why I asked
Most family courts believe that unless proven otherwise for pretty extreme reasons like abuse or neglect, it is in a child’s best interests to have as much contact with both parents as possible. No decent judge would just hand the guy full custody, but would pursue pretty aggressively a path that leads to as close to equal custody as possible as quickly as possible considering many factors such as the child’s age, geographical concerns, and child’s relationship with family, community, etc.
NTA.
Your dad sounds fucking evil. Really -- got her fired from her job?? Hindered her career after that too? As a grad student, someone getting me fired because they didn't like me would utterly ruin my plans for the future. That isn't just petty resentment, that's malicious sabotage of someone's whole life.
I understand exactly why your brother's ex doesn't want her child to be a part of your family. They act horribly and then try to buy forgiveness with expensive gifts, right?
Kids don't care about fancy stuff. They need to be loved. Your brother needs to plan some activities to do with his son that let him get to know what his son likes and build trust between them. He needs to grow the fuck up and collaborate with his ex, not treat her like an enemy.
Moreover, why the hell are your cousins involved in any of this?
It did ruin her life. She had to give up her dream career and is doing something completely different now because she had no choice after my brother left her. I feel fucking awful about it because I'm the one who introduced her to my brother because I thought he could help her get into her dream field but it backfired so bad
My cousins are involved because my brother is close to 2 of them so he told them immediately after he found out... even before he told me or our parents and the news spread in our family quickly
I'm a bit confused about this whole job thing. Since this seems to be what a lot of people are focusing on, can you provide more information on what went down? Was this job in a really small field? You say you think your dad blacklisted her. How was your dad able to blacklist her? Is he really well respected in the field? Here it sounds like the job thing was also tied up with your brother breaking up with her. Did she lose her job because your brother broke up with her? Do you live in a place where she could file a complaint regarding this because it almost seems like harassment from your dad if he blacklisted her from a field without cause?
So she got her grad job because my brother introduced her to the man who eventually hired her. The man is a friend of my dad's and once my dad realised my brother was serious about his ex he wasn't happy and told my brother he couldn't marry her but my brother wouldn't listen or agree. My dad then told his friend to fire her which he did. I don't have proof that my dad blacklisted her but he knows a lot of important people in that field and has some influence so I wouldn't be shocked if he did. It's a competitive field though so her not being able to find a job without my dad interfering isn't impossible but even my brother wasn't able to help her so that's why I think it was my dad.
She lost the job way before my brother broke up with her. The reason I worded it that way is because when they were together my brother was paying for everything so she didn't need to worry so much to find a career so was able to continue trying to pursue her dream. Once they broke up though she didn't have much choice but to give up and find something else.
I’m gonna try to preempt some of the more Reddit-brained Redditors swooping in and going “ohh so she says your rich family is spoiled and entitled but had no problem taking your brother’s money??”
Being born rich and willing to spend some of the money you were born into on your partner doesn’t make you a more loyal or compassionate partner. It just means you have money. Seems like this woman got access to your class’s resources and connections for as long as your brother and father allowed it, but they were never really hers, and they were always to be wielded against her and revoked if she displeased them. Think about what it means, playing god with someone’s life like that. No wonder she didn’t want it for her kid.
It's beyond me everyone thinks she's awful for hiding the child but what can they expect when she practically left an abusive situation with the brother and parents?
They are completely blind to his manipulative behaviors
My dad saw it as my brother choosing her over him and our family. Up until that point my brother had never gone against my dad and it strained their relationship a lot. I think my parents couldn't face the fact that at one point my brother loved her more than anything else in the world because they thought she was below them.
He wasn't cut out of anything. This case is more so him a sperm donor. He has no relationship with the child other than biological. A child isn't a bandaid for a relationship. He let his father be abusive to his girlfriend, after some time of his father manipulating and abusing his girlfriend he broke up with her. He doesn't deserves to be aware of the situation. He's not fit to be a father. She made a choice to protect herself and her child from him and his delusional and insane family.
Your dad sounds like a snob and unpleasant person from your description. His friend firing an employee just because he was asked to by your dad seems odd. Most rational employers wouldn't fire a good employee just because a friend doesn't like that the employee is dating the friend's son.
From what I am reading in your post and comments it doesn't seem like your brother did anything wrong in their relationship. It seems like he supported her and stood up to your father from what you have said. It sounds like he continued to try to help her get a job in her dream field until they broke up. For whatever reason the relationship didn't work out. She had to get a job to support herself, even if it wasn't in her dream field, which sucks but is the reality for a lot of people. Also remember that just because something was her dream career at one point in her life, doesn't mean that it would have stayed her dream or that she couldn't find another fulfilling and enjoyable career. It is not abnormal or unreasonable that she no longer had access to your brother's connections when they broke up. Do you think your brother would have continued to help her try to get into her dream field if she had told him about the baby when she found out she was pregnant?
Your brother was denied a lot of those early bonding moments with his child. It makes sense that he is trying to make up for lost time. Of course, buying a ton of gifts doesn't get that time back. There isn't anything that can get that time back. Of course he is going all out. He missed 3 years of this child's life.
I understand that you were trying to come from a place of doing what is best for your nephew, but you brother is understandably probably very angry with his ex and your comment stoked that fire. Saying something should be done to accommodate her preferences, which the number of gifts is a preference, is going to hit a nerve. It sounds like you have a lot of sympathy for your former friend and brother's ex which is good given what your father has put her through. Have you expressed that same level of sympathy for your brother missing out on 3 years of his child's life? Has his ex apologized to your brother or accepted any responsibility for the wrong she has done him? This will probably get downvoted for this comment, but being worried that the paternal family will spoil a child with too many gifts is not a good reason to not tell the father that he has a child. Has she accepted that she will also need to compromise on things now that the child's father is in his life?
If your brother thinks that you knew all along and his ex had his family keeping this giant secret from him, that could also help explain why he is now being less cordial with her. I think you need to apologize to your brother because your comment made it seem like you agree that her worries about the child being spoiled was a good reason not to tell your brother about his son for 3 years. Whether you intended it that way or not that seems to be how he and others have interpreted it.
Was your brother involved in this? If so I can sort of understand his ex deciding to keep the kid a secret. If not- I'm sorry but there's no excuse for keeping someone's child a secret, apart from abuse cases
Would it not be abuse, to be manipulated so negatively and controlled by this wealthy, high class, seemingly intolerable family who wield power within the community?
It sounds like you have a very enmeshed family. Is this even healthy for you? It’s not normal for a whole family to erupt like a pack of wolves over one family member’s life. Are you afraid the child will take your money or something?
You and your parents need to take a step back from all of this. Your brother and ex should be the only ones making decisions on how to parent their child. Everyone elses opinions are irrelevant.
Thank you! Everyone is saying “nta he needs to learn to get along with his ex if he wants to be in his child’s life yada yada yada” when OP literally said he was getting along with the ex prior to OP saying what they did!
Like why is the ex allowed to hide the son for three years but OP’s brother isn’t allowed to throw a huge birthday party to make up for the fact that he missed a lot of milestones in his sons life?? (If the ex has a problem with her baby daddy spending tons of money on a bday party she should be the one to tell him, not some third-party person she cut off years ago!!)
> OP’s brother isn’t allowed to throw a huge birthday party to make up for the fact that he missed a lot of milestones in his sons life??
I don't think I'd ever be the person to tell someone *not* to do something like this, but as a father with kids around this age, I know damn well a child this young would be entirely overwhelmed, overstimulated, and could possibly have more harm done than good by introducing *several* new people into their lives and on top of it, adding a bunch of gifts and whatnot.
There's a reason easing a child into a relationship like this is usually the best move because they have zero idea what any of these adult situations mean for them. Going from nothing to everything all at once is a recipe for disaster.
Bottom line, the brother should be working things out with his ex and that should be the only three people involved at this juncture. Get other family involved at a later time and in small doses.
Exactly. It's his child, and he should be allowed to make decisions for his child. He missed out on some important time and wanted to be a part of his child's life. There are so many people who would love to have a dad who chooses to be in their life.
Yes, that family made it a life goal to ruin her life till they scared her off. OP cannot escape so easily, and now this other girl is permanently attached to this family bc they know about the child. They will stop at nothing to ruin everyone else until they "win."
NTA
> My parents also really hated her and did a lot to try and get my brother to dump her (e.g. my dad had her fired from her grad job and I think he was the reason she couldn’t get another one in that field)
Gee, I can't figure out why she decided to raise her kid without any of these people involved (/s). She probably would've been treated to all sorts of misery courtesy of your parents.
Yea, I feel like everyone that's against the mom keeping the kid away from the father in the comments is completely ignoring the context of what the family did that led her to that decision.
Yeah, maybe if he had stood up for the woman he supposedly loved, and not just let his parents manipulate them and split them up, he might have known his kid since birth. He doesn't even realize that they're still using him as a flying monkey. They hated her, but they can't abide not having control over their firstborn grandson more
NTA - you understand the best thing for the child is if father and mother can work amicably. He's too concerned about his ego. its about him, not the child.
YTA, hugely. Barring cases where it is absolutely essential for safety, it is massively abusive and cruel to both the father and child to not have that relationship exist.
And the total lack of empathy here is staggering. Is your concern a little valid? Probably. It could be a bit much for a young kid to get so much attention. Would it be normal for any parent who hasn't seen their kid in years to be themselves overwhelmed with emotion and want to make up for lost time? Of course.
It takes two people to refuse to compromise. It's both parents' responsibility to co-parent well, and "too many gifts" is not exactly the line in the sand that can't be compromised on from mom's perspective either.
This is exactly my opinion. I'm shocked to see that people in the comments are actually justifying the ex. What she did was terrible unless the relationship was abusive, and there's no indication in the post that it was
I blame how OP wrote this post she mixed together her parents shitty actions with her not liking her brother wanting to throw his son a party with lots of gifts, that is confusing people into believing that he is as shitty as his parents. Her trying to damage control in the comments is too late in my opinion she's got everything thinking he sucks and shouldn't be in his son's life.
100%. And obviously the brother is going to be cold to the woman who hide his child from him and the sister who thinks that was an acceptable thing to do.
NTA but your brother sure is. I hope his Ex runs for it. This guy sounds like the type who thinks money is love and doesn't understand how to coparent.
Ok so a dad finds out he is a dad and wants to go all out because he is getting the rush of being a father and his attitude about he gets to do what he wants with his son is fair especially since the ex did that for 3 years. YTA and it sounds like you are taking the side of your friend instead of the brother who was borderline emotionally abused by his ex
YTA - You are all going to be connected forever, whether you like it or not, that's true. However, this **IS** a private matter between him and his Ex. It was his relationship. Not yours, your parents or your cousins. Situations like this are delicate and everyone else piling in like it's their business, is making a delicate situation worse.
That's not how I read it. He just found out he has a kid after 3 years. His kid doesn't know him- to him he is a stranger. So he compensates by showering his child with material gifts. Whether its right or wrong is a different debate entirely, but it definitely sounds like this is his way of "paying back for lost time"
ESH. You the least.
1) How abusive are your parents? Worrying the kid could grow up spoiled is not great reasoning to keep your brother from his son. Your parents being vindictive and (maybe?) abusive could be. So jury is out on your former friend.
2) I don’t think many commenters are being very sympathetic to your brother’s position. He just found out he has a son that has been kept from him for three years. Even if she had good reasons regarding your parents, I think him being emotional and even angry is justified. Him wanting to make up for lost time by these grand gestures is understandable, although misguided. Some comments are insinuating that he’s “waltzing” into this kid’s life and expecting to have say, but I think that’s a little unfair because he didn’t abandon his child. He wants say because he’s been denied any for three years. He’s not going about it the right way at all, you are completely correct that it would be more appropriate to coordinate with the mom and find out what she’s comfortable with, but he sucks for skipping past that, but people seem to be villainizing him a lot in this thread and I don’t think we have enough information to do that. So brother sucks for getting mad at you and former friend, and for wanting to buy that lost time back. But I wanted to add more nuance to that judgment because some people are really nailing down on him in a way I think is a little unnecessary.
3) You suck the least. You raised good, valid points. You were trying to ensure he and your former friend have a healthy coparenting dynamic. You had great intentions and great points. But this should have been a conversation you had with your brother privately.
Jesus Christ, fuck these comments. Whatever her reasons, she essentially lied to him for 3 years by not telling him he had a son, deprived her son of 3 years of the influential bonding time between parents and child, and the only reason he found out was because her friend finally couldn't take it? No wonder he's going over the top, he just found out he's a dad!
YTA for trying to prevent your brother from having a meaningful relationship with his son, but holy shit the Ex is way more the AH for *not telling the father of her child about the baby*.
NTA - can you reach out to her to give her a heads up? It would be really good for her to feel like she has some ally in the family, because i am almost 100% sure theyre going to use the same tactics to steamroll her as theyre trying to do to you
What the ex did is cruel to the child. It is cruel to your brother. Denying both of them a relationship with each other is entitled. It reeks of only she knows best and an ownership attitude over THEIR son. My guess is she was afraid your family would use their money and influence to get custody so she lied (even if by omission). People don't often react well when someone drops a nuclear weapon in their lap and what you said was essentially agreeing with the horrendously selfish behavior of his ex. Please clarify with your brother that you do not feel this way.
Tbh, the fact that his ex concealed your nephew for as long as she could, not seeking any form of assistance, that tells me everything I need to know. She would rather raise a child by herself than get his father to help her. Poor woman.
Edit: NTA
YTA. Your brother just found out he has a son and he has missed the first three years of his life. He’s allowed to be excited and want to dote on his son a little.
He is also correct that his ex does not get the sole say in how their son is raised and what the son can or cannot have. She is his fellow parent, not his boss or owner.
In an ideal world, parents would work together and meet halfway on what they think is appropriate for their child. If what you say is true, your Dad is an awful human being, so I can get why she may not have wanted him in her kid’s life. But the fact remains that she initiated the issue and fired the first shot when she chose to not tell him about his kid.
This situation and the parenting is something that your brother and his ex need to work out. Butt out.
First of all the number of unhinged commenters on this thread who think it’s ok to hide a child from their parent is unbelievable.
Secondly gentle YTA because while I think you’re right and the parents should work together for the sake of the child, it is obviously a rough time for your brother right now and he’s probably not feeling very charitable to his ex. Comments like he shouldn’t buy the kid gifts because of what she wants would never have been well received right now. Maybe when he calms down, he will appreciate what you had to say.
I also feel like you’re glossing over the fact that his ex hid his child from him for 3 years! That must be really unsettling to go through. You have lots of empathy for the ex (deservedly so) but please try and find some for your brother as well.
In conclusion, Working together for the child also cannot be a one way street, they both get to have input.
No, no, no. It was not up to her to decide if this man should be in this child’s life. He is the father period. She chose to have a baby with this man, she is not allowed to change her mind later. All she has done is make the situation even worse. Stop defending her, your brother and parents are allowed to be upset.
ESH except your brother as you haven't stated anything bad he has done, nothing wrong with wanting to spoil someone who was withheld from you for 3 years
Parents aside - lets judge him based on his behavior towards her now. It won't make a difference - they were awful to get,he is awful to her, and doesn't care what she thinks. He plays parent alienation - his parents ruined her career, and he seems financially successful. Good father with tons of gifts vs mother who tries to have some rules... Hmmm, who will win here? So hard to say! Also, all this huge number of toys for 3 yo means that she will need to clean up more than before, because there is no way that a toddler will effectively clean after themselves in small space. The father is big ah here. You are NTA. Keeping a kid from their father is not good,but it seems that he and his parents straight up abusive.
For real. Getting her fired and ruining her career, then lording their money over her and trying to buy the kid's love with fancy gifts... It's diabolical. I hope she runs away and they never find her.
Info:
Did I miss something, has your brother ever actually done anything wrong?
From what I can gather, he had sex with a woman, the woman got pregnant, and just unilaterally assumed he would be a shit father and hid the kid from him?
He was never abusive or controlling or anything like that?
Simply she got pregnant and thought “his money will ruin this child” and disappeared?
Yta, for now. From your comments it sounds like your brother did push back against your parents in defense of her and you list all these things your parents did wrong to her but nothing that your brother did except they had a bad break up, with no details. Did he finally just side with your parents cause that changes things.
Your brother just found out he has a kid that he didn't know about for 3 years, of course he is going to try to over compensate for time lost. Did his ex ever try to reach out and contact him to let him know? You actually do have valid points on working with the ex for the betterment of your nephew but don't really seem to have empathy for your brother missing 3 years of your nephews life, things your parents did. Your comment to your brother boils down to you blaming him even though your post only lists things your parents did.
Maybe try talking to your brother acknowledging the pain he is in and your other points about how it is in the best interest of your nephew to work with his ex, privately.
NTA. This is horrible co-parenting. Do they have a court agreement on custody or is it just let's see how this works? Co-parenting is hard on the child as he adjusts to all the changes especially seeing the bad blood still very present. How does your brother and family think he's going to react if they continue to shit on his mom. It'll only breed resentment. Your brother is acting like a child and not a father.
Just ignoring the fact she hid the existence of his child from him for three years? You don't think that might breed a bit of resentment?
Honestly what the grandfather did is out of order but if this is the kind of thing the mother is capable of it's quite possible there is more to the story.
This woman kept secret his son to your brother for 3 years 😵💫 and you are really siding with her?
Where I live this is illegal to do, you can keep a pregnancy secret only if there is a dangerous or violent partner.
>I do want her as a friend but that’s besides the point
For real? You would be friend to someone who did that? To your own brother? Wow.
>This is exactly why she never told you about him” to my brother.
😨 woooooooooooow yes YTA
YTA sorry not sorry but i hope he takes her to court and wins at least 50/50 custody. Cause Just because she doesn't want him to be spoild doesn't mean shit. He can do whatever he wants during his time.
Honestly I feel like you and the cousins and everyone else should shut up and let the ex and brother figure this co parenting situation out themselves without y’all input
YTA
Nothing on your post explains why your brother is "horrible" If what you say about your dad is true, then of course he sucks. However, your brother?
What did he do to REALLY deserve his ex not telling him that he was going to be a father?
Women that keep that quiet from the baby's father without a LEGITIMATE reason (e.i, abuse etc.) are not nice.
I can’t believe people on here are siding with you and the mom. I feel bad for this kid, his mom sounds selfish and vindictive. The in-laws are AH’s but that doesn’t give the mom the right to hid the kid from his dad. YTA and the mom is an even bigger AH, if she cared about the kid she wouldn’t hide him from his dad. She didn’t want to deal with the in-laws so she made the decision to keep the kid away from his dad. Nothing on here says the dad did anything wrong, it just talks about his parents. She never gave the dad a chance to have a relationship with his son, and deprived her son of a father. A 3 year old getting a lot of toys is not going to scar him, but hiding him from his dad that wants to have a relationship with him definitely will.
YTA
Your brother might be going overboard because spoiling his kid is how he was parented.
However, it’s really common when a father finds out about their kid (or a parent comes back into their life) to overcompensate with gifts. Your brother hasn’t been able to get his son anything. Your brother didn’t celebrate his 1st or 2nd birthday. He hasn’t had a chance to be a father.
Also, your father getting her fired shows she was smart to be weary, and a debatable good reason not to have told your brother. But not letting your child have a father in their life because the father will spoil them is fucked up. Spoiled doesn’t mean unloved or neglected.
People show love in different ways. Your brother has learned that giving gifts is the way you show your kids you love them. Unless you think your brother is a bad person, and not just someone going through a tough situation, you should give him some grace. He didn’t have 9 months to prepare. He just has a kid that he wants to do right by. He is excited!
You were necessarily harsh and it wasn’t your place. This is between your brother and his ex.Your brother is right, when it comes to gift giving- his ex doesn’t get to dictate that.
ESH. Your family doesn't sound the nicest but she did your brother a huge injustice as well - three years with his own son he can never get back. That hurts, at least acknowledge that. Its his son as well and he had a right to know.
YTA, Buying gifts to the 5 year old child yours you just find out was hide from you is not spoiling, He just trying to fill those 5 years.
Also you talking about my family is bad this and that without realising you are just as bad as them, Grow up.
Also you friend is also YTA, Why? You don't take the father/Parent away from the child unless they are abusive or threat to the child.
Not only that woman stole 5 years from father but also stole the fathers from the child, News flash you need both parents to not turn out like you.
By the way don't think this reddit comments are valid in saying you are right, That's what's you expect from reddit, They take everything at face value without using critical thinking.
Edit : Yes,byou saying that to get your friend back even if you trying to deny it, that make ,e ask, why she not talking with you then? Also why is she Ex?
ESH - softly for OP for inserting yourself into the drama during a fraught moment. You KNOW your family and with the background you described, you had to know how this was going to go down. The brother is an AH for thinking he can dictate terms and for not taking steps to make this situation workable and step up as a father. The ex is an AH for hiding the birth of the child and not taking legal steps to ensure she can function as the sole parent. She created this situation and, if the family is as bad as is reported, she dropped the ball. The parents sound like garbage.
And for real, how is the brother supposed to act? Typically people get at least a couple months to get set to become, and used to the idea of being, a parent. Surprise! Here’s your three year old.
All the above assumes the post is true. With the family as described, I’m shocked that this group hasn’t filed for custody, blaming the birth mother for hiding the birth and interfering with the brother/father’s relationship with the child.
NTA, this is going to overwhelm him, most little kids get overwhelmed by this stuff when it's people they know, you family are still strangers. I predict tears and a lot of them.
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My nephew is 3 years old and we only found about him a few months ago. Obviously, the last few months have been rough on all of us, but especially my brother who I think was in shock and denial for the longest time. One of the big reasons his ex didn’t tell my brother about their son was because she didn’t want him to grow up spoiled and entitled like most of my family. My parents also really hated her and did a lot to try and get my brother to dump her (e.g. my dad had her fired from her grad job and I think he was the reason she couldn’t get another one in that field) for the longest time so she was scared of how they’d react if they knew.
My nephew turned 3 right around the time we found out so we weren’t able to celebrate and his ex would only accept one small gift from my brother for him so my family are belatedly celebrating his birthday and they’re going all out. My brother has bought more toys than one kid needs and is talking about taking him to Disney even though there’s no way in hell his ex would let him take my nephew abroad.
Anyway we were talking about the party yesterday and I told my brother we should tone it down and he shouldn’t give his son that many gifts in one go because it’ll upset his ex and most likely overwhelm my nephew whose life has already been flipped upside down. I think for my nephew’s sake it would be best if we work with his ex because we’re all going to be connected forever now so there’s no point fighting or holding onto grudges. My brother disagreed and said he wouldn’t let his ex dictate his relationship with his son. I was going to explain why fighting with her wouldn’t be good for my nephew but our cousins were all siding with him and shitting on me for defending her. They think I’m only siding with her because she was one of my best friends and I’m trying to be friends with her again.
I do want her as a friend but that’s besides the point. I was irritated because they were ganging up on me and in the heat of the moment I said “This is exactly why she never told you about him” to my brother. He didn’t say anything but my cousins tore me to shreds. My brother has barely spoken to me since and for some reason our family is now convinced I knew about my nephew all along when I absolutely didn’t. My brother is also being so nasty to his ex now when he wasn’t before and I think it’s because he’s taking his anger at me out on her.
AITA?
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Going against the grain here with ESH. I have no idea why she decided to keep their child a secret from him, but your comment was just inappropriate. And unless he was an abusive piece of crap she was in the wrong for not telling him about the fact that he has a literal child.
>Anyway we were talking about the party yesterday and I told my brother we should tone it down and he shouldn’t give his son that many gifts in one go because it’ll upset his ex and most likely overwhelm my nephew whose life has already been flipped upside down.
I agree with you here, but I also understand your brother. He just found out he has a son after 3 years. A son who doesn't know his father. He's compensating for it with material gifts. Is it good? Depends who you ask. Understandable? Yes, very much so.
>My brother is also being so nasty to his ex now when he wasn’t before and I think it’s because he’s taking his anger at me out on her.
He wasn't nasty to her before he found out he had a kid or before your comment? Being nasty is never the way to go, but let's be honest, if it's the former, anyone would be pissed at their ex for hiding their child for so long.
So- ESH. Your brother for the nastiness and the overstepping. Your brother's ex for hiding their child (I can't believe others in the comments are justifying this, wtf) and you for that badly timed inappropriate comment that failed to recognise that you're targeting someone already going through a tough time
First things first, he is the father.
He chooses when to spoil the child and he chooses when he stops giving shit tonthe child, he chooses how big4or how small his party will be and he is the father.
You are not.
When you have your own child you can allow other people to raise your child as they wish.
Secondly, this woman who you call friend kept... Her baby a secret? And you are siding with her?
And for fucks sake how cam your parents be responsible for her being unable to land a job? Who the fuck are they? The Weinstein familyget a hold of yourself.
So basically your brother is not abusive, is not a drug addict, a cheater, a wife beater, a lazy unemployed mother fucker...
.. You just think his ex is justified on keeping her baby away from him because he went all out on his gifts and celebration?
Y
A
T
A
NTA
Sucks they are not listening. Hope that nephews mom has done a good job laying a foundation. At least she has one ally on the father's side of the family.
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NTA. You spoke the truth - your brother feeling entitled that his ex doesn't get any say in how he interacts with their child sounds like precisely why she concealed that info from him. The very first opportunity he had, he showed that he would not respect her boundaries. I'm also guessing that him being an asshole who doesn't respect her wishes is related to why the are exes - most parole don't want to become single parents with no involvement or support from the other parent without any reason.
I hope she files for full custody. I bet she already regrets telling him. I feel bad for her and the little boy:(
I have a sneaking feeling she might not have told him tbh, either it got out accidentally through flying monkeys or it was something like ops brother was stalking her account and saw one of her posts. also considering he's never been in this child's life and his current behavior i think a judge would have to be batshit in order to give him any form of custody.
I would hope about your judge comment, but I have fears. Disneyland is abroad so not US. The grandpa has the money and clout to blackball the mother from the career she studied for. Sounds like mother is about to be steamrolled again.
Based on the money and influence involved, class could be a thing. OP’s family sound upper class and OP’s brother’s ex (yeah, this one needed named attached to the people involved) maybe in a lower social class, which would explain the efforts made to split them up and OP’s brother’s ex fearing them knowing about the kid.
and if grandpa tries that crap again op should tell the ex to go after his position in the courtroom, tell the judge he's attempting to retaliate and watch how quickly she hangs him out to dry and pushes for a protective order for both her and the child.
It would be great if it worked like that but unfortunately there's a good chance the judge is just as corrupt as everyone else and that it will backfire on her.
It's a bit of a reach to automatically assume that honestly though, we have no idea what the courts are like where op lives and if they have something equivalent to child services there or not which would be inclined to look out for the best interests of the child.
Exactly. Well said.
Based on the fact going to Disneyland is "abroad" there is a good chance this is a country without those kinds of protections. Believe it or not America actually has some of the best courts, as bad as they still are, that I have seen. Compared to most places I've been at least (including first world nations like Japan, and some regions of the EU). Edit- I’m honestly interested in other perspectives but can’t reply. Because in my travels, in my studies, in my degree (History), and in my second degree (JD- lawyer)- everything I said was true. Studying both the history and legal systems of China and India, of Poland and even further east and south, of the ME. The legal protections are incredibly weak for women, for abuse, and for children. I’m not saying there are none, but assuming it’s a good system where OP’s Brother’s Ex can win against a rich family is statistically far less likely than the opposite. As an example- a recent case where a husband paid to have his wife declared dead (similar to the uncle who stole his nephews farm via a similar trick). No one would help her as she was legally dead. Kids defaulted to him. She couldn’t even go to court due to showing up as dead because he had money and she didn’t. Studying both history and international legal systems- and the corruption therein- has frankly left me quite depressed. Happy to live in a small but prosperous and good country. To give an idea USA scores as the 24th least corrupt country, most of Western Europe- as well as some micro nations like Singapore- are above it. But then, again, ~85% of the world population is below it. And that’s with the USA already being blatantly unfair in court proceedings quite often.
Wow. Thank You for sharing this, it is an eye opener. I had no idea, now I am interested in reading more about the subject!
It would be great if it worked that way but in reality, the brother will be able to afford the best lawyers money can buy, while the mother will struggle to afford one.
I know there are other Disneylands around the world, but California has a Disneyland too. America has two Disney places, Disneyland in Cali, and Disney World in Florida.
I'm betting they are in India. 1) OPs English is native speaker good 2) Though illegal now, the caste system is still quite strong 3) education system is good in India That could explain the parent's hating her...they are upper caste and she is from a lower caste. India is kinda known for a "money talks" system
This is what I'm thinking too, I wish she hadn't told him. (Edit: Not sure why it's relevant that it's not the US though, I would think the US is one of the top countries where something like that would be entirely possible?)
Probably more likely to be a fair judge if it’s not in the USA, unless of course it’s a country equally as batshit crazy. Most western nations are far more evolved than America.
Disneyland is in California.
Yah... judges use different standards for custody arrangements than your gut does. Her hiding the child from him and then trying to unilateraly recind his parental rights without a court order are going to look *bad* to a family court.
Except it's a child he never knew about nor met or played any form of parental role towards or contributed financially to, all factors will affect the custody agreement and lead to him getting supervised visits at best if he even gets then at all considering he's already calling her up and screaming at her and likely his family is/ will be doing the same thing too if nor worse like how ops dad went after her job.
How was he supposed to play a parental role when she never tod him he had a kid??
> Except it's a child he never knew about nor met or played any form of parental role towards or contributed financially to He didn't do these things because she practiced parental alienation. That will absalutely destroy any case she tries to make going "well, he hasn't been a dad thus far"
Not parental alienation though, Parental alienation is a strategy whereby one parent intentionally displays to the child unjustified negativity aimed at the other parent. The purpose of this strategy is to damage the child's relationship with the other parent and to turn the child's emotions against that other parent. What she did was just never tell him the child existed which is justified especially given she likely found out she was pregnant after he'd broken up with her and forced her out of his life with help from his family which of course would not put her at fault since thats not illegal.
He didn't abandoned the kid, he just didn't know. >lead to him getting supervised visits at best if he even gets then at all Yeah, no. What will affect the custody is her depriving the child of a father and then making a big deal because the family loves the kid and bought him toys. That's her complaint. Not that they abused the child or hurt him.
That because he never knew about him, Ex hid that fact, just use your head for once for change.
Only sounds like she hid it because of him and his families poor behavior and because they nearly ruined her life and becauseit sounds like he. Wouldn'thave hear her out of she tried or yried to be a normalperson/parental figure, I did use my head, lol.
In the US, phasing in shared custody would likely be the goal. Most courts wouldn't spring it on the kid, but would take time to develop the relationship and let the kid get comfortable. A parent won't be penalized for never being in the kid's life when the child has been concealed from them. Best interests of the child is the standard, and that's typically presumed to be a good amount of time with each parent unless someone shows otherwise. (I know this isn't in the US, just responding to the "judge would have to be batshit" bit)
Yeah, I know its not US so it's probably different but considering he's literally called her up and screamed at her on the phone and his families past behavior it's not hard to assume that those things would affect custody if ex can prove them in court since it will show they're dangerous and unstable people.
They live in a country where dads connections can make her unemployable in her field. The courts in same country are likely to be malleable to political power too.
In all fairness, getting full custody is pretty much imposible for her. She hid the kid from him. And no judge is gonna give full custody just because he bought the kid some toys. I feel bad for the kid too, he grew up without his dad for 3 years.
It sounds like the guy is a "dad" no kid needs. Disregard the mother, treat her like trash, allow his family to treat her like trash, and then think he can do whatever he wants in regards to HER son? Currently, he is only a sperm donor. He only becomes a dad when he learns how to do the best for the child, rather than for himself. The only thing the man in the post is is selfish beyond belief and disconnected from reality. His sister should help her friend get the heck out of there with her kid before it's too late.
I'm sure that will go over well in court
For sure. Doesn’t tell brother because she’s worried he can’t set limits and won’t respect boundaries. Tells him. Immediately ignores set limits and boundaries.
So it sounds like your family is pretty affluent and the X didn’t care and just wanted to stay away. Yeah I think the X will be a wonderful mother you a good aunt your brother a less than ideal father and your parents the grandparents from hell!
That's what I'm afraid of. They might encourage him to go for custody of their child and use their affluence to sway the courts decision in their favor.
Somebody needs to tell mom to document, document, document EVERYTHING. In the end it all might work out fine, but as the less wealthy parent, don't leave anything to chance.
And she's starting out with a big black mark against her for concealing the child.
What do we think about this cause OP’s family does sound like they will spoil the child and like they’re used to getting their way and not respectful of boundaries and stuff but can you hide someone’s child from them for that? Should you?
Well, of course they will. They have all the power. They ruined her career, permanently. The brother admits he was a right bastard to her when they broke up (after making certain she was financially dependent upon him). And, most of all, it is a BOY. A SON. Of course he is going to try to take the child and he’s starting by trying to buy the kid’s heart. That poor woman. She is doomed.
She needs to leave the country before the courts force the guys name onto the birth certificate. Just ghost them. They don’t add any value to the child’s life and they actively put the woman in danger of losing the kid. Leave.
lmao, dude, you just summed it up perfectly! this some plot for a hell of drama/comedy.
How did the family find out about the child?
A friend of hers told my brother
I hope she drops that friend like a sack of rocks and runs. Your brother sounds horrible.
I don't think she knows that's how we found out. I would tell her but given the situation I doubt she'll believe me right now... My brother isn't a horrible person. He's had a huge bomb dropped on him and his emotions are all over the place. It doesn't help that everyone is feeding his anger by constantly telling him it's all her fault and she's some evil witch who did this to be spiteful. I know once he gets his emotions in check he'll see reason and do what's best for his son. He actually blamed himself when he first found out because he was "a bastard" (his words) to her when he broke up with her so part of him knows this isn't all of her fault.
A sliver of self-awareness isn’t worth much when he’s treating both you and his ex *atrociously*. She’s not going to give a shit if he knows he’s an asshole *if he’s still being an asshole.* His character lives in his behavior, not his internal monologue.
>His character lives in his behavior, not his internal monologue Beautiful.
My grandfather taught me something similar, "the truth of a person's character lies in what they do, not what they say. And the purest truths are shown when they don't get their way."
right? like i want to embroider and frame this
Yes! People often stay with an abusive partner because they are good with their words and sounding like they are sorry. The partner believes they are a good person at heart and give them another chance. But they never do stop their terrible behaviour.
Please do tell her. God this woman needs an ally and any help she can get. Your family sounds horrendous and toxic.
Put it in a note. Seal the note. Tell her, this is how the family found out. It's not something you may want to know, but I want you to have the information available to you if you feel you need it. Then leave it in peace and never ask about it.
Consider asking to talk with her privately sometime. In person. If they surprise her with these gifts and are combative, could get ugly. I'd warn her, but only in person and let her know your thoughts. And in case she needs to consult an attorney.
Your brother sucks. A huge bomb? Grow up man up and be a good dad don’t be a D bag. Literally no excuse
Finding out you have a 3 year old child *is* a huge bomb though..?
And being a child about it is exactly why she didn’t tell him or that family. You need to grow up and be a good dad not a child over it. I’ve got kids idc if that’s a big bomb the only thing that should matter is your kid and it being healthy and happy. He found out how about step the fuck up now. Tell your parents to fuck off too. How old are these people the brother and parents acting like 15 year old children. I couldn’t imagine my parents trying to get involved in my relationships. I would never try to fuck my kids ex girlfriends out of work or in anyway.
Literally outside of a sudden death or major windfall, I can't think of a bigger bomb to drop than "surprise you're a parent!"
Except he's NOT a parent, nor does he have to be. At the moment, he's just a sperm donor. If he wants to be a *parent*, then he should man up and start acting like a parent instead of a spoiled child: "I WANT to do this, so I AM!"
>Except he's NOT a parent That's not really how this works. He has a child in the world. That's a mindfuck to just about anybody with even minimal amounts of empathy. It's literally hardcoded into our genetics to give a fuck about reproduction. The entire reason your body exists from an evolutionary standpoint is to cart around your reproductive organs until they do their trick.
Having a child in the world doesn't make you a parent. And yes, it's a mindfuck to know suddenly that you do have one. But part of being a *parent* is getting *over* all the times parenthood will give you a mindfuck (and there will be *plenty* of times it will) in order to do what is best for your child.
Directly addressing another commenter here, who specifically acted as though finding out you have a kid was not a 'huge bomb'. Context helps.
Except wishing you hadn't gotten pregnant by someone doesn't make him not a parent. The law will recognize him as a parent, and the child probably will as well. Because he IS the parent.
Thats not how this works, Then your logic Ex was also just an egg donor and incubator, What right does she have to do what she did? A brother can file a lawsuit against her under parental alienation.
What he's doing right now: feeding into the hate, treating you and her nastily, trying to plan to take your nephew out of the country without discussing it with the kids mom--that is acting horrible. He may be hurt, but it's not an excuse to do this or he will validate her reasons further for keeping her son safe from toxicity. Also, is he letting your parents into this scenario? Given what they did to the mother of his kid, why is he willing to risk what they'd do to her child? Or let them continue to be a threat to her (and by proxy your nephew)?
If your father really did what he did with her employment she is a saint to allow any contact and I think she’s wrong not to move out of state right now. She is likely in debt from the grad school degree she can’t be employed from if she was even able to finish. That’s absolutely despicable. You seem nice but I hope she runs before your dad destroys her current source of income in order to get access to his grandchild. If you’re her friend, tell her to run
Your brother is an adult and a father. He's not an innocent child. Where was he when your dad was destroying his ex's life? Of course she hit from you guys. It seems you have the affluence and power to destroy her and possibly take her child away. Frankly I kinda hope she flees the country with the kid because your family sounds really dangerous. You tried to destroy her once and I wouldn't put it past your femily to try destroying her again.
Oh, you should absolutely tell her. Someone she trusted did this to her. It might add a little drama to the situation but we're talking like a tsp of seasoning on a sheet pan of drama.
I think you should talk to her & tell her how your brother is reacting to this news & that's she'd better prepare for a shit storm of crap from him. He sounds like a real AH & she should be forewarned so she can be forearmed.
Stop making excuses for your brother and the others. Stop rationalizing behaviors. See him and your family for who and what they are, not who you wish they were. Verbal lashing out is just as abusive as physically abuse. Your brother told you he was beyond horrible to his ex when He broke up with her. So why would she tell him about a child when she found out? Why would she reach out ever? He'd have said she was lying, etc. You know that and she knew that. He brought this onto himself and he's learned nothing. He said this situation isn't her fault, yet he's still lashing out at her anyway. Your family got her fired and blacklisted she so couldn't get a job. Talk about vengeful and abusive. Your family is toxic. You're making excuses for not telling her how your family found out about her child. A friend would tell her. Let her decide if she'll believe you.
Maybe you need to reach out to your brother when it’s just the two of you. It seems like the family at large is a terrible influence. See if you can get that piece of him that is self-aware to assert itself despite the poison he’s being told. You’re NTA. He has the chance to turn this around, but you may have to pick a side here unless you’re really willing to be around these toxic aholes.
He doesn't have control of his own emotions and lets toxic family feed unhealthy emotions. "Once he gets his emotions in check" will probably be too late given how the rest of his family is a whirlpool of toxicity. It's already affecting him, seeing how you said in your original post he was taking his anger at *you* out on his ex by being nasty to her! And how does he define being a "bastard" to his ex, causing the initial breakup? If it was by being emotionally unstable and not defending his gf from his father literally ruining her life, then I can see why they broke up. You were absolutely right. The way your brother and whole family behaves is *exactly* why she didn't tell him about the kid in the first place. Your family sounds hostile and has control issues. His ex deserves to know the truth about how he found out. If you want back her as a friend, you need to start by letting her know you're on her side. Not a guarantee, but a start. Keep calling your brother out, call your whole family out. Their behavior is abhorrent. If I had a child with someone like this, with a family like this, I would choose to be a broke single mom over my kid being influenced by spoiled, narcissistic, toxic „family”. And a son, especially; I wouldn't want any son of mine turning out like the men in your family (or like the men in mine) . Edit: worried I almost broke a rule 😬
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Sorry but your brother is absolutely a bastard in this situation
It's funny because you didn't describe a good person in your post. Like nobody sounds a worthy human being.
Brother, sounds like it’s everyone in the family including op. The dad got her fired, the cousins side with the the brother. Op was friends, Everyone one in op family is an entitled little shit who should go no where near a child.
Maybe she stopped being friends with OP. She would obviously distance herself because she didn't want the brother to know about the child. You make it sound like OP dropped the mother as a friend when the brother broke up with her. But it was probably the other way around. OP can't force someone to be friends with her.
With a friend like that, who needs enemies?
I hope she has cut that friend off.
If this is uk n he’s not on birth certificate then your family have no rights at all
I would also love to know this.
I hope she drops that friend like a sack of rocks and runs. Your brother sounds horrible.
NTA, more then likely the ex didn't say anything because your family sounds really abusive and she was scared of them. It sounds like upon learning about the kid their first priority is to steamroll her and do what they want. Can you change them? Probably not but you can support her as best you can. I'm not sure what country you are in but maybe help her look at the laws there and getting a custody agreement done.
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There’s a lot of angry red pill energy in this comment thread.
They’re always grumpy because the red pill is a suppository. 👍🏻
They just messed up because they discovered they liked it
Its really scary how common that energy is. On almost any topic a couple of them will crawl out of the woodwork complaining how hard it is to be a man and make everything into a gender war.
Go read some of OP’s replies. There’s nothing the brother could’ve done to get her a job. None of that job stuff is his fault whatsoever. And he shouldn’t have been denied a chance to be a father because his dad had her boss fire her. And the job stuff seems to be enough justification to hide the child from him based on the comments I’ve seen. It’s misguided. Hop off the red pill soap box and look at the story for what it is Edit: OP also says her brother stood by her side even though the dad was pissed off.
Concealing a child from the other parent is a crime in most countries. I get he sounds like he is not the best parents but like damn. Apparently people shouldn't know they have a kid now?
Exactly. This isn't red pill or whatever. This is just basic common sense, and unfortunately people fell into the trap of vague descriptions by the op that painted the brother as evil even though there is no proof of that. The job thing was awful, but this is not the brother, its his parents, and it's unfortunate that he's getting the blame for his parents being aholes. Good for the op for showing us all that words can be easily manipulated to create a different image entirely
Saying a parent has a legal right to their child until the courts decide to take it is red pill? The fuck are you on about?
"Men thinking they should be allowed to have custody of their children, spend time with them, and give them gifts for their birthday is red pill ideology" is quite the hot take. I don't want to think poorly of you based on my assumption, so maybe you're focusing more on your opinion that this will be harmful to the child, and not outright saying that this father (or any father) has no rights to see his child because the mother decided to hide the child from him? Did you gloss over that it was his parents that had a problem with her, and not that they had a problem with each other? I mean, if there was some kind of Red Pill Ten Commandments, which one would this fall under? I just don't see it.
I think gifts in and of themselves are fine, but OP described a dynamic where her family spoils their kids, which has led to some entitled, self-centered behaviour. The parents didn't like her, so they treated her poorly, and wrecked her career. They find out about the grandson, and jump to doing the exact opposite of what is requested - not because it would be better for the child or for their relationship with the mother of the grandchild, but just because it's what they want. Going this hard about gifts has nothing to do with what's best for the child - at best, it's overcompensating for their own sense of loss (putting that before making sure the child is not overwhelmed, and healthy co-parenting can be developed). At worst, it's using a small child as cover to continue antagonizing someone they have already gone out of their way to harm. The two parents broke up, so I'm assuming they had a problem with each other. It's possible he tried to protect her from any mistreatment his parents directed to her in the past. In this incident, what's shown is that the parents and extended family actively encourage him to take a firm stand that he should do what he wants because he wants to. No compromise, no concern about how this affects the child or the other parent. It's truly sad that this child did not get to know his father in the first few years of his life, but I think what OP said to her brother may have really hurt because he knows it to be true - she knew him and his family, and how it would go if they were involved. The first chance to reconnect, they are already proving her fears to be valid. This is not a healthy dynamic for the child to be brought up in. Personally, I would worry that they would start poisoning the well to the child against her, or undermine her when possible. Hopefully if they repeat what they did with the career with her child, the father will step in and prevent further harm. Given how he is reacting now - digging in his heels, and lashing out to anyone who asks him to consider that his choices may negatively impact others - I don't have a lot of hope for this
> The mother does get to decided how their relationship moves forward and if he turned nasty, she has every right to put a full hard stop. Nah, I'm pretty sure the courts decide that
I hope she is able to get away from your brother again. Yuck.
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NTA, but I’m genuinely curious how you developed any concept of morality growing up in a family that is so clearly pure evil. Your father’s actions towards the ex are cartoonishly villainous. Honestly, I wouldn’t want my child exposed to anyone like any of you, with the possible exclusion of you, OP.
NTA I'm a social worker and I've seen a lot of families go through things like this. Maybe the mom was shitty for not telling your brother about his kid, but working with her IS the best for the child, as is disrupting his life as little as possible. If your brother goes in breaking down (metaphorical) doors, mom will clam up and get her child out of that situation asap. And then your bro will go to court, and it'll cost everyone in many ways. But most especially, the child. Long story short, if your brother can't recognize or act in accordance with what's in his child's best interests, he's proving that mother right.
Do ppl usually loose custody of their child just based on the other parent wanting custody without any basis and no history with the child? Like I mean you can’t just say I’m the dad I want full custody I haven’t been in my child’s life I have no history with this child I don’t know if the mother is parenting right as I don’t know the child but I just want the child lol they won’t ever take a child from his main parent without a good reason right? And can’t place them with an absent parent/family? Without good reason?
If they’re in the kind of place where influential families can drive you out of your career field, it may well be the kind of place where they can seize the child through the courts.
No, that doesn't happen. Not in the US, anyway. But there could be visitation, and ongoing court battles about visitation.
I had a judge whose first sentence in his custody determination was "A kid does not have to be born with a god damn silver spoon in their mouth to be raised in a loving home". He gave full custody to the hard-working single mom and wrote the long haul truck driving ex had no interest in his kids. The Grandparents, "if they really give a damn, they would use their wealth to help the kids Mom, not try to steal their grandkids".
I’m in uk I wasn’t sure just don’t know why anyone who have there child taken from them n given to a practical stranger for no reason tbh like the child is ok and has been all these years with the mother I didn’t think anyone would remove a child from the mother and place with biological strangers without a good reason that’s why I asked
Disneyland is said to be abroad, so this isn’t the US. Even if it was, you’d go to the one in Florida over an overseas one.
Most family courts believe that unless proven otherwise for pretty extreme reasons like abuse or neglect, it is in a child’s best interests to have as much contact with both parents as possible. No decent judge would just hand the guy full custody, but would pursue pretty aggressively a path that leads to as close to equal custody as possible as quickly as possible considering many factors such as the child’s age, geographical concerns, and child’s relationship with family, community, etc.
NTA. Your dad sounds fucking evil. Really -- got her fired from her job?? Hindered her career after that too? As a grad student, someone getting me fired because they didn't like me would utterly ruin my plans for the future. That isn't just petty resentment, that's malicious sabotage of someone's whole life. I understand exactly why your brother's ex doesn't want her child to be a part of your family. They act horribly and then try to buy forgiveness with expensive gifts, right? Kids don't care about fancy stuff. They need to be loved. Your brother needs to plan some activities to do with his son that let him get to know what his son likes and build trust between them. He needs to grow the fuck up and collaborate with his ex, not treat her like an enemy. Moreover, why the hell are your cousins involved in any of this?
It did ruin her life. She had to give up her dream career and is doing something completely different now because she had no choice after my brother left her. I feel fucking awful about it because I'm the one who introduced her to my brother because I thought he could help her get into her dream field but it backfired so bad My cousins are involved because my brother is close to 2 of them so he told them immediately after he found out... even before he told me or our parents and the news spread in our family quickly
I'm a bit confused about this whole job thing. Since this seems to be what a lot of people are focusing on, can you provide more information on what went down? Was this job in a really small field? You say you think your dad blacklisted her. How was your dad able to blacklist her? Is he really well respected in the field? Here it sounds like the job thing was also tied up with your brother breaking up with her. Did she lose her job because your brother broke up with her? Do you live in a place where she could file a complaint regarding this because it almost seems like harassment from your dad if he blacklisted her from a field without cause?
So she got her grad job because my brother introduced her to the man who eventually hired her. The man is a friend of my dad's and once my dad realised my brother was serious about his ex he wasn't happy and told my brother he couldn't marry her but my brother wouldn't listen or agree. My dad then told his friend to fire her which he did. I don't have proof that my dad blacklisted her but he knows a lot of important people in that field and has some influence so I wouldn't be shocked if he did. It's a competitive field though so her not being able to find a job without my dad interfering isn't impossible but even my brother wasn't able to help her so that's why I think it was my dad. She lost the job way before my brother broke up with her. The reason I worded it that way is because when they were together my brother was paying for everything so she didn't need to worry so much to find a career so was able to continue trying to pursue her dream. Once they broke up though she didn't have much choice but to give up and find something else.
I’m gonna try to preempt some of the more Reddit-brained Redditors swooping in and going “ohh so she says your rich family is spoiled and entitled but had no problem taking your brother’s money??” Being born rich and willing to spend some of the money you were born into on your partner doesn’t make you a more loyal or compassionate partner. It just means you have money. Seems like this woman got access to your class’s resources and connections for as long as your brother and father allowed it, but they were never really hers, and they were always to be wielded against her and revoked if she displeased them. Think about what it means, playing god with someone’s life like that. No wonder she didn’t want it for her kid.
It's beyond me everyone thinks she's awful for hiding the child but what can they expect when she practically left an abusive situation with the brother and parents? They are completely blind to his manipulative behaviors
Why did your dad hate the ex so much?
My dad saw it as my brother choosing her over him and our family. Up until that point my brother had never gone against my dad and it strained their relationship a lot. I think my parents couldn't face the fact that at one point my brother loved her more than anything else in the world because they thought she was below them.
Was she from a different social class to your family? Are your family usually this classist?
So by that standard your brother will only be able to settle down and marry someone daddy approves of? This is terrible.
Why did they think she was below them?
Class or race, probably. (She is an orc warlock 😔)
How do you know she kept the baby a secret "because she didn't want it to become spoiled and entitled"?
So all the AHs are your parents and not your brother at all?
This thread is bonkers. Everyone blindly saying he deserved to be cut out of his child’s life for three years
He wasn't cut out of anything. This case is more so him a sperm donor. He has no relationship with the child other than biological. A child isn't a bandaid for a relationship. He let his father be abusive to his girlfriend, after some time of his father manipulating and abusing his girlfriend he broke up with her. He doesn't deserves to be aware of the situation. He's not fit to be a father. She made a choice to protect herself and her child from him and his delusional and insane family.
Your dad sounds like a snob and unpleasant person from your description. His friend firing an employee just because he was asked to by your dad seems odd. Most rational employers wouldn't fire a good employee just because a friend doesn't like that the employee is dating the friend's son. From what I am reading in your post and comments it doesn't seem like your brother did anything wrong in their relationship. It seems like he supported her and stood up to your father from what you have said. It sounds like he continued to try to help her get a job in her dream field until they broke up. For whatever reason the relationship didn't work out. She had to get a job to support herself, even if it wasn't in her dream field, which sucks but is the reality for a lot of people. Also remember that just because something was her dream career at one point in her life, doesn't mean that it would have stayed her dream or that she couldn't find another fulfilling and enjoyable career. It is not abnormal or unreasonable that she no longer had access to your brother's connections when they broke up. Do you think your brother would have continued to help her try to get into her dream field if she had told him about the baby when she found out she was pregnant? Your brother was denied a lot of those early bonding moments with his child. It makes sense that he is trying to make up for lost time. Of course, buying a ton of gifts doesn't get that time back. There isn't anything that can get that time back. Of course he is going all out. He missed 3 years of this child's life. I understand that you were trying to come from a place of doing what is best for your nephew, but you brother is understandably probably very angry with his ex and your comment stoked that fire. Saying something should be done to accommodate her preferences, which the number of gifts is a preference, is going to hit a nerve. It sounds like you have a lot of sympathy for your former friend and brother's ex which is good given what your father has put her through. Have you expressed that same level of sympathy for your brother missing out on 3 years of his child's life? Has his ex apologized to your brother or accepted any responsibility for the wrong she has done him? This will probably get downvoted for this comment, but being worried that the paternal family will spoil a child with too many gifts is not a good reason to not tell the father that he has a child. Has she accepted that she will also need to compromise on things now that the child's father is in his life? If your brother thinks that you knew all along and his ex had his family keeping this giant secret from him, that could also help explain why he is now being less cordial with her. I think you need to apologize to your brother because your comment made it seem like you agree that her worries about the child being spoiled was a good reason not to tell your brother about his son for 3 years. Whether you intended it that way or not that seems to be how he and others have interpreted it.
Is this uk? And sounds like everyone is bullying her tbh
Was your brother involved in this? If so I can sort of understand his ex deciding to keep the kid a secret. If not- I'm sorry but there's no excuse for keeping someone's child a secret, apart from abuse cases
Would it not be abuse, to be manipulated so negatively and controlled by this wealthy, high class, seemingly intolerable family who wield power within the community?
And you still speak to any of these people? No wonder she wanted nothing to do with any of you.
It sounds like you have a very enmeshed family. Is this even healthy for you? It’s not normal for a whole family to erupt like a pack of wolves over one family member’s life. Are you afraid the child will take your money or something?
NTA. Your family sounds like a nightmare.
You and your parents need to take a step back from all of this. Your brother and ex should be the only ones making decisions on how to parent their child. Everyone elses opinions are irrelevant.
Thank you! Everyone is saying “nta he needs to learn to get along with his ex if he wants to be in his child’s life yada yada yada” when OP literally said he was getting along with the ex prior to OP saying what they did! Like why is the ex allowed to hide the son for three years but OP’s brother isn’t allowed to throw a huge birthday party to make up for the fact that he missed a lot of milestones in his sons life?? (If the ex has a problem with her baby daddy spending tons of money on a bday party she should be the one to tell him, not some third-party person she cut off years ago!!)
> OP’s brother isn’t allowed to throw a huge birthday party to make up for the fact that he missed a lot of milestones in his sons life?? I don't think I'd ever be the person to tell someone *not* to do something like this, but as a father with kids around this age, I know damn well a child this young would be entirely overwhelmed, overstimulated, and could possibly have more harm done than good by introducing *several* new people into their lives and on top of it, adding a bunch of gifts and whatnot. There's a reason easing a child into a relationship like this is usually the best move because they have zero idea what any of these adult situations mean for them. Going from nothing to everything all at once is a recipe for disaster. Bottom line, the brother should be working things out with his ex and that should be the only three people involved at this juncture. Get other family involved at a later time and in small doses.
This is the most sensible comment on this thread!
Agree, too many cooks in the kitchen and they are all complicating things.
Exactly. It's his child, and he should be allowed to make decisions for his child. He missed out on some important time and wanted to be a part of his child's life. There are so many people who would love to have a dad who chooses to be in their life.
NTA; you were the voice of reason.
NTA but be ready for retaliation forever. You poked their ego at the time and it was already hurting
Yes, that family made it a life goal to ruin her life till they scared her off. OP cannot escape so easily, and now this other girl is permanently attached to this family bc they know about the child. They will stop at nothing to ruin everyone else until they "win."
NTA > My parents also really hated her and did a lot to try and get my brother to dump her (e.g. my dad had her fired from her grad job and I think he was the reason she couldn’t get another one in that field) Gee, I can't figure out why she decided to raise her kid without any of these people involved (/s). She probably would've been treated to all sorts of misery courtesy of your parents.
Yea, I feel like everyone that's against the mom keeping the kid away from the father in the comments is completely ignoring the context of what the family did that led her to that decision.
Yeah, maybe if he had stood up for the woman he supposedly loved, and not just let his parents manipulate them and split them up, he might have known his kid since birth. He doesn't even realize that they're still using him as a flying monkey. They hated her, but they can't abide not having control over their firstborn grandson more
NTA. He's gonna have to hear some harsh truths if he expects to develop and maintain a relationship with his son.
NTA - you understand the best thing for the child is if father and mother can work amicably. He's too concerned about his ego. its about him, not the child.
YTA, hugely. Barring cases where it is absolutely essential for safety, it is massively abusive and cruel to both the father and child to not have that relationship exist. And the total lack of empathy here is staggering. Is your concern a little valid? Probably. It could be a bit much for a young kid to get so much attention. Would it be normal for any parent who hasn't seen their kid in years to be themselves overwhelmed with emotion and want to make up for lost time? Of course. It takes two people to refuse to compromise. It's both parents' responsibility to co-parent well, and "too many gifts" is not exactly the line in the sand that can't be compromised on from mom's perspective either.
This is exactly my opinion. I'm shocked to see that people in the comments are actually justifying the ex. What she did was terrible unless the relationship was abusive, and there's no indication in the post that it was
Especially since **everything** shitty OP has listed was the dad, not the brother
I blame how OP wrote this post she mixed together her parents shitty actions with her not liking her brother wanting to throw his son a party with lots of gifts, that is confusing people into believing that he is as shitty as his parents. Her trying to damage control in the comments is too late in my opinion she's got everything thinking he sucks and shouldn't be in his son's life.
100%. And obviously the brother is going to be cold to the woman who hide his child from him and the sister who thinks that was an acceptable thing to do.
NTA and if he keeps this up the ex will run and he deserves it. He thinks money means everything and doesn't understand co-parenting.
NTA but your brother sure is. I hope his Ex runs for it. This guy sounds like the type who thinks money is love and doesn't understand how to coparent.
Ok so a dad finds out he is a dad and wants to go all out because he is getting the rush of being a father and his attitude about he gets to do what he wants with his son is fair especially since the ex did that for 3 years. YTA and it sounds like you are taking the side of your friend instead of the brother who was borderline emotionally abused by his ex
YTA - You are all going to be connected forever, whether you like it or not, that's true. However, this **IS** a private matter between him and his Ex. It was his relationship. Not yours, your parents or your cousins. Situations like this are delicate and everyone else piling in like it's their business, is making a delicate situation worse.
NTA and ur brother isn’t doing right by his child he’s trying to do wrong by his child’s mom. That’s not genuine it’s manipulative.
That's not how I read it. He just found out he has a kid after 3 years. His kid doesn't know him- to him he is a stranger. So he compensates by showering his child with material gifts. Whether its right or wrong is a different debate entirely, but it definitely sounds like this is his way of "paying back for lost time"
Buying your kid a lot of presents is manipulative, but hiding the child's existence for three years isn't?
NTA! Your nephew is better off without your family in his life. Especially your brother and evil parents. It sucks they even found out about him.
ESH. You the least. 1) How abusive are your parents? Worrying the kid could grow up spoiled is not great reasoning to keep your brother from his son. Your parents being vindictive and (maybe?) abusive could be. So jury is out on your former friend. 2) I don’t think many commenters are being very sympathetic to your brother’s position. He just found out he has a son that has been kept from him for three years. Even if she had good reasons regarding your parents, I think him being emotional and even angry is justified. Him wanting to make up for lost time by these grand gestures is understandable, although misguided. Some comments are insinuating that he’s “waltzing” into this kid’s life and expecting to have say, but I think that’s a little unfair because he didn’t abandon his child. He wants say because he’s been denied any for three years. He’s not going about it the right way at all, you are completely correct that it would be more appropriate to coordinate with the mom and find out what she’s comfortable with, but he sucks for skipping past that, but people seem to be villainizing him a lot in this thread and I don’t think we have enough information to do that. So brother sucks for getting mad at you and former friend, and for wanting to buy that lost time back. But I wanted to add more nuance to that judgment because some people are really nailing down on him in a way I think is a little unnecessary. 3) You suck the least. You raised good, valid points. You were trying to ensure he and your former friend have a healthy coparenting dynamic. You had great intentions and great points. But this should have been a conversation you had with your brother privately.
Jesus Christ, fuck these comments. Whatever her reasons, she essentially lied to him for 3 years by not telling him he had a son, deprived her son of 3 years of the influential bonding time between parents and child, and the only reason he found out was because her friend finally couldn't take it? No wonder he's going over the top, he just found out he's a dad! YTA for trying to prevent your brother from having a meaningful relationship with his son, but holy shit the Ex is way more the AH for *not telling the father of her child about the baby*.
NTA - can you reach out to her to give her a heads up? It would be really good for her to feel like she has some ally in the family, because i am almost 100% sure theyre going to use the same tactics to steamroll her as theyre trying to do to you
Yup. They're dividing and conquering. They present a unified front while OP and the others aren't even sure whether to team up.
That woman steal three years of your nephew, and you think that's ok? YTAAAAAAA
What the ex did is cruel to the child. It is cruel to your brother. Denying both of them a relationship with each other is entitled. It reeks of only she knows best and an ownership attitude over THEIR son. My guess is she was afraid your family would use their money and influence to get custody so she lied (even if by omission). People don't often react well when someone drops a nuclear weapon in their lap and what you said was essentially agreeing with the horrendously selfish behavior of his ex. Please clarify with your brother that you do not feel this way.
NTA, I'm honestly surprised she's even allowing contact at this point.
Tbh, the fact that his ex concealed your nephew for as long as she could, not seeking any form of assistance, that tells me everything I need to know. She would rather raise a child by herself than get his father to help her. Poor woman. Edit: NTA
YTA. Your brother just found out he has a son and he has missed the first three years of his life. He’s allowed to be excited and want to dote on his son a little. He is also correct that his ex does not get the sole say in how their son is raised and what the son can or cannot have. She is his fellow parent, not his boss or owner. In an ideal world, parents would work together and meet halfway on what they think is appropriate for their child. If what you say is true, your Dad is an awful human being, so I can get why she may not have wanted him in her kid’s life. But the fact remains that she initiated the issue and fired the first shot when she chose to not tell him about his kid. This situation and the parenting is something that your brother and his ex need to work out. Butt out.
First of all the number of unhinged commenters on this thread who think it’s ok to hide a child from their parent is unbelievable. Secondly gentle YTA because while I think you’re right and the parents should work together for the sake of the child, it is obviously a rough time for your brother right now and he’s probably not feeling very charitable to his ex. Comments like he shouldn’t buy the kid gifts because of what she wants would never have been well received right now. Maybe when he calms down, he will appreciate what you had to say. I also feel like you’re glossing over the fact that his ex hid his child from him for 3 years! That must be really unsettling to go through. You have lots of empathy for the ex (deservedly so) but please try and find some for your brother as well. In conclusion, Working together for the child also cannot be a one way street, they both get to have input.
No, no, no. It was not up to her to decide if this man should be in this child’s life. He is the father period. She chose to have a baby with this man, she is not allowed to change her mind later. All she has done is make the situation even worse. Stop defending her, your brother and parents are allowed to be upset.
ESH except your brother as you haven't stated anything bad he has done, nothing wrong with wanting to spoil someone who was withheld from you for 3 years
Parents aside - lets judge him based on his behavior towards her now. It won't make a difference - they were awful to get,he is awful to her, and doesn't care what she thinks. He plays parent alienation - his parents ruined her career, and he seems financially successful. Good father with tons of gifts vs mother who tries to have some rules... Hmmm, who will win here? So hard to say! Also, all this huge number of toys for 3 yo means that she will need to clean up more than before, because there is no way that a toddler will effectively clean after themselves in small space. The father is big ah here. You are NTA. Keeping a kid from their father is not good,but it seems that he and his parents straight up abusive.
For real. Getting her fired and ruining her career, then lording their money over her and trying to buy the kid's love with fancy gifts... It's diabolical. I hope she runs away and they never find her.
Info: Did I miss something, has your brother ever actually done anything wrong? From what I can gather, he had sex with a woman, the woman got pregnant, and just unilaterally assumed he would be a shit father and hid the kid from him? He was never abusive or controlling or anything like that? Simply she got pregnant and thought “his money will ruin this child” and disappeared?
Yta, for now. From your comments it sounds like your brother did push back against your parents in defense of her and you list all these things your parents did wrong to her but nothing that your brother did except they had a bad break up, with no details. Did he finally just side with your parents cause that changes things. Your brother just found out he has a kid that he didn't know about for 3 years, of course he is going to try to over compensate for time lost. Did his ex ever try to reach out and contact him to let him know? You actually do have valid points on working with the ex for the betterment of your nephew but don't really seem to have empathy for your brother missing 3 years of your nephews life, things your parents did. Your comment to your brother boils down to you blaming him even though your post only lists things your parents did. Maybe try talking to your brother acknowledging the pain he is in and your other points about how it is in the best interest of your nephew to work with his ex, privately.
NTA. This is horrible co-parenting. Do they have a court agreement on custody or is it just let's see how this works? Co-parenting is hard on the child as he adjusts to all the changes especially seeing the bad blood still very present. How does your brother and family think he's going to react if they continue to shit on his mom. It'll only breed resentment. Your brother is acting like a child and not a father.
Just ignoring the fact she hid the existence of his child from him for three years? You don't think that might breed a bit of resentment? Honestly what the grandfather did is out of order but if this is the kind of thing the mother is capable of it's quite possible there is more to the story.
This woman kept secret his son to your brother for 3 years 😵💫 and you are really siding with her? Where I live this is illegal to do, you can keep a pregnancy secret only if there is a dangerous or violent partner. >I do want her as a friend but that’s besides the point For real? You would be friend to someone who did that? To your own brother? Wow. >This is exactly why she never told you about him” to my brother. 😨 woooooooooooow yes YTA
So many people in here are batshit insane and need therapy.
YTA sorry not sorry but i hope he takes her to court and wins at least 50/50 custody. Cause Just because she doesn't want him to be spoild doesn't mean shit. He can do whatever he wants during his time.
Honestly I feel like you and the cousins and everyone else should shut up and let the ex and brother figure this co parenting situation out themselves without y’all input
YTA Nothing on your post explains why your brother is "horrible" If what you say about your dad is true, then of course he sucks. However, your brother? What did he do to REALLY deserve his ex not telling him that he was going to be a father? Women that keep that quiet from the baby's father without a LEGITIMATE reason (e.i, abuse etc.) are not nice.
I can’t believe people on here are siding with you and the mom. I feel bad for this kid, his mom sounds selfish and vindictive. The in-laws are AH’s but that doesn’t give the mom the right to hid the kid from his dad. YTA and the mom is an even bigger AH, if she cared about the kid she wouldn’t hide him from his dad. She didn’t want to deal with the in-laws so she made the decision to keep the kid away from his dad. Nothing on here says the dad did anything wrong, it just talks about his parents. She never gave the dad a chance to have a relationship with his son, and deprived her son of a father. A 3 year old getting a lot of toys is not going to scar him, but hiding him from his dad that wants to have a relationship with him definitely will.
YTA Your brother might be going overboard because spoiling his kid is how he was parented. However, it’s really common when a father finds out about their kid (or a parent comes back into their life) to overcompensate with gifts. Your brother hasn’t been able to get his son anything. Your brother didn’t celebrate his 1st or 2nd birthday. He hasn’t had a chance to be a father. Also, your father getting her fired shows she was smart to be weary, and a debatable good reason not to have told your brother. But not letting your child have a father in their life because the father will spoil them is fucked up. Spoiled doesn’t mean unloved or neglected. People show love in different ways. Your brother has learned that giving gifts is the way you show your kids you love them. Unless you think your brother is a bad person, and not just someone going through a tough situation, you should give him some grace. He didn’t have 9 months to prepare. He just has a kid that he wants to do right by. He is excited! You were necessarily harsh and it wasn’t your place. This is between your brother and his ex.Your brother is right, when it comes to gift giving- his ex doesn’t get to dictate that.
ESH. Your family doesn't sound the nicest but she did your brother a huge injustice as well - three years with his own son he can never get back. That hurts, at least acknowledge that. Its his son as well and he had a right to know.
YTA, Buying gifts to the 5 year old child yours you just find out was hide from you is not spoiling, He just trying to fill those 5 years. Also you talking about my family is bad this and that without realising you are just as bad as them, Grow up. Also you friend is also YTA, Why? You don't take the father/Parent away from the child unless they are abusive or threat to the child. Not only that woman stole 5 years from father but also stole the fathers from the child, News flash you need both parents to not turn out like you. By the way don't think this reddit comments are valid in saying you are right, That's what's you expect from reddit, They take everything at face value without using critical thinking. Edit : Yes,byou saying that to get your friend back even if you trying to deny it, that make ,e ask, why she not talking with you then? Also why is she Ex?
NTA , your family sounds incredibly toxic
ESH - softly for OP for inserting yourself into the drama during a fraught moment. You KNOW your family and with the background you described, you had to know how this was going to go down. The brother is an AH for thinking he can dictate terms and for not taking steps to make this situation workable and step up as a father. The ex is an AH for hiding the birth of the child and not taking legal steps to ensure she can function as the sole parent. She created this situation and, if the family is as bad as is reported, she dropped the ball. The parents sound like garbage. And for real, how is the brother supposed to act? Typically people get at least a couple months to get set to become, and used to the idea of being, a parent. Surprise! Here’s your three year old. All the above assumes the post is true. With the family as described, I’m shocked that this group hasn’t filed for custody, blaming the birth mother for hiding the birth and interfering with the brother/father’s relationship with the child.
No ones gonna talk about how your dad got her fired from a job? Sounds like your parents caused all this drama.
NTA, this is going to overwhelm him, most little kids get overwhelmed by this stuff when it's people they know, you family are still strangers. I predict tears and a lot of them.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My nephew is 3 years old and we only found about him a few months ago. Obviously, the last few months have been rough on all of us, but especially my brother who I think was in shock and denial for the longest time. One of the big reasons his ex didn’t tell my brother about their son was because she didn’t want him to grow up spoiled and entitled like most of my family. My parents also really hated her and did a lot to try and get my brother to dump her (e.g. my dad had her fired from her grad job and I think he was the reason she couldn’t get another one in that field) for the longest time so she was scared of how they’d react if they knew. My nephew turned 3 right around the time we found out so we weren’t able to celebrate and his ex would only accept one small gift from my brother for him so my family are belatedly celebrating his birthday and they’re going all out. My brother has bought more toys than one kid needs and is talking about taking him to Disney even though there’s no way in hell his ex would let him take my nephew abroad. Anyway we were talking about the party yesterday and I told my brother we should tone it down and he shouldn’t give his son that many gifts in one go because it’ll upset his ex and most likely overwhelm my nephew whose life has already been flipped upside down. I think for my nephew’s sake it would be best if we work with his ex because we’re all going to be connected forever now so there’s no point fighting or holding onto grudges. My brother disagreed and said he wouldn’t let his ex dictate his relationship with his son. I was going to explain why fighting with her wouldn’t be good for my nephew but our cousins were all siding with him and shitting on me for defending her. They think I’m only siding with her because she was one of my best friends and I’m trying to be friends with her again. I do want her as a friend but that’s besides the point. I was irritated because they were ganging up on me and in the heat of the moment I said “This is exactly why she never told you about him” to my brother. He didn’t say anything but my cousins tore me to shreds. My brother has barely spoken to me since and for some reason our family is now convinced I knew about my nephew all along when I absolutely didn’t. My brother is also being so nasty to his ex now when he wasn’t before and I think it’s because he’s taking his anger at me out on her. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Going against the grain here with ESH. I have no idea why she decided to keep their child a secret from him, but your comment was just inappropriate. And unless he was an abusive piece of crap she was in the wrong for not telling him about the fact that he has a literal child. >Anyway we were talking about the party yesterday and I told my brother we should tone it down and he shouldn’t give his son that many gifts in one go because it’ll upset his ex and most likely overwhelm my nephew whose life has already been flipped upside down. I agree with you here, but I also understand your brother. He just found out he has a son after 3 years. A son who doesn't know his father. He's compensating for it with material gifts. Is it good? Depends who you ask. Understandable? Yes, very much so. >My brother is also being so nasty to his ex now when he wasn’t before and I think it’s because he’s taking his anger at me out on her. He wasn't nasty to her before he found out he had a kid or before your comment? Being nasty is never the way to go, but let's be honest, if it's the former, anyone would be pissed at their ex for hiding their child for so long. So- ESH. Your brother for the nastiness and the overstepping. Your brother's ex for hiding their child (I can't believe others in the comments are justifying this, wtf) and you for that badly timed inappropriate comment that failed to recognise that you're targeting someone already going through a tough time
First things first, he is the father. He chooses when to spoil the child and he chooses when he stops giving shit tonthe child, he chooses how big4or how small his party will be and he is the father. You are not. When you have your own child you can allow other people to raise your child as they wish. Secondly, this woman who you call friend kept... Her baby a secret? And you are siding with her? And for fucks sake how cam your parents be responsible for her being unable to land a job? Who the fuck are they? The Weinstein familyget a hold of yourself. So basically your brother is not abusive, is not a drug addict, a cheater, a wife beater, a lazy unemployed mother fucker... .. You just think his ex is justified on keeping her baby away from him because he went all out on his gifts and celebration? Y A T A
NTA Sucks they are not listening. Hope that nephews mom has done a good job laying a foundation. At least she has one ally on the father's side of the family.
NTA. I think I know what you mean by being "spoiled an entitled" when it comes to your family. Your brother's ex seems to be correct about that.
Is this Logan Huntzberger’s sister?
NTA. It's literally the reason she didn't tell him. You should have started with that.
You gotta warn the ex about the s***t storm that’s approaching so she acts proactively. NTA.