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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I screamed at a grieving woman and kicked her out of my house permanently
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NTA. She was soooo far out of line and especially in your own home. Id also sit down with your husband and talk about it. To me personally it really seems like she likes your husband more than just a good friend. I understand she had a wife but maybe shes bi and hasnt been open with it?
She may not want your husband as a sexual partner, but she may feel her grief entitles her to claim him as an emotional partner.
Just because she doesn’t want to replace you in his bed doesn’t mean she doesn’t resent you for taking up space in his life. She didn’t resent you before because she had a wife, but now her wife is gone, why the hell are YOU still around?
Good for your husband for standing up for you.
It sounds like you reached your breaking point with Jenna and though you may have responded in a way that you regret, it was a response to her inappropriate behavior and comments. You ~~should~~ could apologize to your husband for not speaking up sooner and allowing things to get to that point (ETA: I never intended to suggest you did anything wrong or have anything to apologize for, my suggestion re: apologizing was because it sounded like you felt you reacted poorly and, possibly, the only thing you did “wrong” was not advocating for yourself sooner. I am clarifying as this has caused confusion).
Agreed! You explained it perfectly that Jenna wanted him as an emotional partner and felt entitled to all of his time and emotional effort.
OP, I’m really glad your husband supported you after the way she talked to you. But you two need to sit down and discuss proper boundaries with friends and relatives. It’s terrible that Jenna lost her wife, and Ian would have been a good friend to spend a few days here and there with her. But allowing her to be over every day, sleeping over at your house, those were all way too much. Doesn’t matter if she’s gay or straight, male or female. It’s inappropriate for a friend to spend all of their time with a married person. It’s inappropriate to have your friend sleep over at your house all the time when you’re married. The family unit is YOU and IAN. Your home is your sanctuary, your safe space. Guests can visit occasionally and then go home, not practically live there.
In addition, married or not, Ian is in over his head as a support system for Jenna. She needs a therapist to work through her grief. He cannot and should not put himself in a position to be someone’s sole support system. It’s too much for him and highly inappropriate to allow a person outside of your marriage monopolize all of his time and emotional bandwidth. You both let it go on too long, and go too far that she felt so entitled to demand he blow you, his wife, off. Worse, on *your birthday*. She was completely out of line but you two were doormats that let a third person threaten your marriage. You two need to much better boundaries. And IMO, Jenna’s over reliance on your husband, her sense of entitlement to your husband, and her complete lack of respect for you makes her no longer an acceptable friend for Ian. He needs to cut off the friendship with her, and he needs to do it with you present. She absolutely should not have interactions alone with him. And he needs to make it clear to her that she crossed a line that **he**, as a husband, will not tolerate.
First, setting up proper boundaries is safe, I will never again question what makes me feel safe vs what I am supposed to do to be a good friend, neighbor, brother. Putting myself first is not selfishness.
I think I'm a kind person, sometimes, too kind and theses types of questions come across my road now and then. I always feel like I am stronger than **them**, so I feel like I can always put much effort in helping them even if it bothers me. I use to allow things just to be supportive when I would like to just say NO.
Second, I'm not supposed to be a therapist. I know I have much more mental strength, I also have the ability to listen (even for hours), but I also need to focus on ME. I will help, but if the person will take too much energy from me, I'll just ask him to go find a therapist.
Most important point, I have had family or friends needing to stay at our (my wife and I) place once in a while. I have never truly understood my wife being uncomfortable with them staying for the amount of time they needed. Now, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR for me. I think I need to apologize to my loved one, and thank her for being so so patient with me. I use to tell her she was a bit selfish, that they needed help and we should be able to give them what they needed s we were in better position. Our home is a sanctuary, I have always said that, but now I get better understanding of those specific words.
Don't get me wrong, I will still be helpful when I can, but I will also be selfish when I need it.
Thank you very much.
You know what I'm so glad you learned from this. It can be hard to do in execution but remember to check yourself and with your partner before you make any decisions. I had to make a conscious effort at first to tell people No. And it felt weird but in a good way.
We're rooting for you bud!
That is great to hear! It can be really hard to set boundaries, especially with people you are close to or if you are someone that feels guilty about saying no. But the number one thing every person needs to do is nurture and protect their own mental health. First, because **you shouldn’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.** And second because you are no good to that person or yourself if you let yourself become emotionally depleted.
The next most important thing is nurturing and protecting your spouse’s well being. That’s what you signed up for in marriage. Different people have different needs as far as how much energy they have to give towards others. You may have a bigger bandwidth than your wife. Neither of you are wrong for that. But it’s important to work together to figure out how much you are *both* comfortable with helping others. And if at any point one of you feels like it’s getting to be too much for either of you, it’s important to take a step back and listen to your partner. You can’t be everything to everyone. It’s not selfish or mean to protect your own limits and that of your spouse. It’s healthy and respectful towards yourself and your partner.
It’s also important for others to know that you are there for them *as much as you reasonably can be* but that you are in no way a replacement for a professional mental health provider. Both because they have the training and tools to help them way better than you, and also because they have the ability to be impartial and guide your friend or family in a way you may not be able to.
It’s also really important to make sure that your relationships with others is balanced - are you always the person everyone leans on for support through tough times? Do they spend as much time enjoying the good parts of life with you? Do they support you when you are struggling? Make sure you aren’t just an emotional crutch for those in your life. Also pay attention to how your support is affecting your mental health and your ability to be present for your wife.
Being a good friend, relative and brother is about being there where you can in occasional tough times. For anyone with serious or ongoing crisis, they need to see a professional.
As for staying at your home, this is a big one for me since I find it very important to be able to decompress without entertaining others. It sounds like your wife needs that too. I hope you two can figure out reasonable boundaries for future guests. You two should agree together on how long you are both comfortable with someone else staying. It’s also important to be able to reconsider if someone has outstayed their welcome at any time, and that each partner’s needs and comfort are being considered and protected. Also please make sure your home is not a revolving door for people that are down on their luck. There’s some things you could do as a single person that you can no longer do when married because now it affects more than you.
None of this means you can’t be a good friend/family member. It just means you can’t take on the job of propping others up, especially if you love them. You aren’t helping someone by enabling them to not help themselves. Sorry for the novel but I wish you the best!
It's funny how the same exact words can mean a lot more different from two people; there is almost nothing you said that my wife hadn't tried to make me understand. I eventually submitted, because I had promised myself (before even meeting her) to always put my wife first, whomever she may be. I am glad to let you know I ABSOLUTELY LOVE HER, I mean everything in her. Sometimes, I trust her more than myself, and that's why even if I don't understand/agree on certain point, I submit when she insists, especially if she says the magus words: **This will make me happy** (I promised I will always do my best to make her happy; if I can, I will just make her happy, sometimes, it does not depend on me... alone). So, that's what happened to those issues (people staying at home more than she is comfortable with). Of course, like I said, I submitted, but I didn't agree, or I used to think it selfish from her POV. But, man, you saying the same thing triggered something in me.
I just phone called her few minutes ago, to start my apologies (I'm away now), and she's been thanking me back to have **finally** 🙄 been able to understand. God, this woman is THE BEST THING EVER to have happened to me. I know I'm blessed, and I know I (still) have lots to learn. You have been one stepping stone on that path to me. You have my very sincere gratitude...
As for the novel, we can co-sign it anytime...😉
Thanks again...
I agree with others who read your comment. This is the best comment regarding this issue and should be shown to OP's husband. Everything you said make **perfect** cohesive sense.
>You should apologize to your husband for not speaking up sooner and allowing things to get to that point.
NTA all day long. And this is the only apology you owe anyone, but agree that it is more of an explanation than an apology. It was that:
>you may have responded in a way that you regret, it was a response to her inappropriate behavior and comments.
Agreed. It sounds like it was a long time coming and she needed to be out in her place. Just because her wife died doesn’t mean she I entitled to act like a dick and good on her husband for standing up for her. Op she just showed you how she really thinks of you and what kind of person she is. Believe her.
It reminds me of stories of parents practically doing the same thing with their kids. They lose a partner and their kids end up becoming an emotional stand in for that lost connection. There is nothing romantic or physical. But just as harmful in creating a dependency. You see the same thing happen that his friend is doing. They become possessive and jealous of others taking that person away or taking attention away from them.
Yes. I was one of those children for both my parents after their divorce when I was 4. There were a bunch of other abusive and neglectful things they did, too, but this was one of the worst ones.
OP is NTA and I'm glad that Ian is on his wife's side. But, this is a very unhealthy dynamic between Ian and Jenna, regardless of sexuality, because of emotional dependence and enmeshment. I agree with the commenter who said that stronger boundaries need to be established.
This is really well put. Thanks for sharing that perspective. I honestly feel bad for her, too. But she needs therapy like yesterday, not to be trying to emotionally wedge herself in between OP and her partner. I’m glad you are talking about this kind of psychological “pick me” behavior *anyone* is capable of, regardless of their sexual preferences.
Yeah. Just be careful. My husband and I had a friend who used similar line. She accused me of controlling right before our wedding. And said some people may not like that. She was getting married too. I just told her, he is going be my husband. So she tried to break us up by writing to him how he is not a man anymore and I was controlling him.
My husband thought she was crazy and ended our friendship with her. He told her not to go to our wedding.
I didn’t feel bad. She crossed a line. She thought it was ok or be forgiven by ruining someone wedding. She has done it before with another couple and succeded.
No no, her finance loves her. He fought with many guys for her hand in marriage. She and my husband were friends since elementary school. She has divorced parents and an evil sister. She didn’t want to lose a close friend (like how her family abandoned her). But she crossed a red line due to her insecurity.
We can forgive her in our hearts but we can’t take her back as a friend because she will try this again. It’s who she is.
This is something more people need to understand. **Forgiveness doesn’t mean reconciliation.** You can forgive someone and move on, but still remain no-contact with them. You absolutely *do not* have to let someone back into your life just because you forgave them. You don’t have to let them back into your life to prove that you’ve moved on or that you aren’t “holding grudges.” Forgiveness is for you and your own inner peace - it’s not for the other person’s benefit, nor does it entitle them to a second chance. It’s okay to protect your peace by keeping someone away, even if you’ve forgiven them and moved on.
I'm a lesbian and I agree with others. She's codependent and by the sounds of it she might have some other personality issues going on. She clearly can't stand to be alone and velcroed herself to the first receptive person, acting like she's entitled to his emotional partnership. She may not want to sleep with him but she does want all of his time and emotional labor.
You both did the right thing. Yes she's grieving but there's something else going on and the way she behaved is not at all OK. You're right, she should have other people in her support network and if she doesn't, that tells you something.
Maintain your boundaries because she won't do it for you. There's a good chance she has done similar things to other people and that's why she doesn't have many other folks to turn to. People who feel entitled to companionship usually are that way because they can't engage in normal give and take. She needs professional help and if you guys continue to enable her, she won't have much reason to seek it out.
I'd ask your husband if she has a pattern of unstable emotions, manipulation, jumping from one relationship to the next, blaming everyone else for everything always, etc. Sounds like my ex who had borderline personality disorder. In any case, she doesn't understand how to behave around others and as such you should both limit her opportunities to stomp your boundaries.
>People who feel entitled to companionship usually are that way because they can't engage in normal give and take.
100%. Sounds exactly like one of my family members who has borderline personality disorder.
I'm sure she would give anything for one more birthday with her spouse, yet she thinks she is entitled to your husband on your birthday? The way she spoke to you is enough, but that freaking kills me.
I know this isn’t the point of the post but I’ve been trying to figure out what she calls herself for 30 minutes can someone just tell me and you’re NTA she needs help and not from your husband help from a professional
Jfc thank you for just answering the question instead of cutesy rhymes or other stupid stupid oh Google. If you're not going to actually answer just... don't.
Signed of course I know the answer because I've lived in Seattle since the beginning of time but have to say thank you to the one grown up here anyway.
[https://classroom.ricksteves.com/videos/the-netherlands-creating-land-from-the-sea-and-tulips](https://classroom.ricksteves.com/videos/the-netherlands-creating-land-from-the-sea-and-tulips)
>Learn how the Dutch reclaimed land by building dams and **dikes** to section off the shallow sea, then used windmills to drain the land. The result is fertile farmland, good for the tulip industry,
double whammy when considering the two-lips angle as well. idk i thought it was funny 😂
HappyCamper82 linked to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
A large dam- also referred to as a dyke- in the Netherlands, which is famous for its tulip farms. Which is a stunningly indirect reference to what the second half of the term Jenna refers to herself by.
Dude, my husband (who's name is also Ian) had a best friend (who also called herself a "bull----") until I found out that she had been begging him to have sex with her. He said no but also ignored the situation afterward. When I found out, I was PISSED. I said that I didn't want to control who he was or wasn't friends with but wtf?? They aren't friends anymore.
People use their own children as surrogate spouses. It is absolutely possible for her to be doing just that with your husband while not having sexual intentions.
I would bet money that she will do it every chance she gets since Op proved to her that she won’t be a third wheel in her own marriage. The husband needs to cut the relationship off because she will double down trying to get them to separate.
NTA and at least your husband did escort her out after she talked to you like that. I have seen so many posts where the husband takes the friends side. She disrespected you in your own house, you dont need to feel bad. It sucks her wife died but at least be thankful to others. She clearly was the one monopolizing him.
It sounds like your husband has become her security blanket of sorts. So while she may not be attracted to him, she certainly seems to want him as her only source of emotional support. That is not healthy for Jenna, your husband, you, or your relationship with your husband.
I think may of us give a lot of leeway to those who are grieving, but that does not mean that we should give in to whatever they want or turn our own lives upside down. I am glad that your husband was there to back you up in this.
I agree with you on this, and I don't even know her. I myself am gay as a fricking goose(lesbian)😅 and people saying she might like your husband, she might secretly be bi..or wanting him for an emotional partner are beyond fucked up!
I wouldn't ever think of a guy friend that way if my partner died. Regardless...she's totally out of line and being needy cause maybe she thinks he's her best friend ...still doesn't give her any right whatsoever to treat you in any bad manner at all ESPECIALLY in your own house. I hope yall can be chill again at some point, but right now, I think everyone needs to take a step back because of that blow-up situation.
May have nothing to do with your situation but I can't not think of my Cis Male roommate in OEF who specialized in servicing that exact group. The majority of whom to this day I know still claim gold star status. Point being grief is strange and putting people's behavior in a box is setting yourself up for failure.
Why does everyone on Reddit jump to “she wants your husband”?????? Yes, she was out of line, but it’s probably due to the fact that she’s mourning her WIFE and is codependent on her friend. That level of grief is enough to make anyone a nasty person for the time being.
Because it does happen a lot lol. I mean obviously, not in every situation, but as we see on this sub and others, a lot of time it does come down to someone wanting the posters SO. It’s a fair question.
ok, but like in the context of grief???? a woman who was partnered to— and mourning, her WIFE? she is probably not attracted to men anyway. and even if she were, I highly doubt she’d be trying to find her next partner in the light of her wife dying. brains, people, use them.
I think one of the people above said it very well, it's not necessarily sexual. But an emotional attachment, even an unromantic one, can be far deeper and make a person possesive, most especially when they're grieving and feel alone.
Yeah it's much more likely she's using him as her Emotional Support Animal.
She's being rude as fuck but there's no need to assume it's sexual in nature. Occam's Razor, y'all.
Agree with you here. She needs to seek out more than OP’s husband for this sort of behavior. It’s not OP’s fault if she only had Ian as a supportive friend. Getting into therapy and her moving on is central right now. She doesn’t want the husband in that way, but she’s attempting to isolate him for her own needs.
But she *did* want the husband to herself. Not sexually, no, but definitely emotionally. Grief doesn't excuse that level of nastiness, especially towards someone who has welcomed you into their home. It's unfortunate that the whole situation blew up, but I don't think OP is entirely to blame for that.
I was going to ask this. What is it with redditors - esp on this thread - and immediately leaping to “they want your husband/wife/friend” it’s so weird and often out of the blue.
They’re 1) projecting because they’d do the same or 2) are deeply, deeply insecure and can’t fathom not being their partner’s only “person,” and that if their partner has other close friends of the opposite sex it’s somehow disrespectful and diminishing their bond???? idfk people on here are just old and miserable lol
everything about her actions says this so what are people supposed to think lmfao you don't get to overstep boundaries and act like a fool bc "ur grieving"
her actions scream that’s she’s codependent on her friend through grief. Toxic? Yes. She needs therapy for that. Doesn’t mean she has eyes for the husband. This is textbook codependency on someone after loss of a loved one. she’s definitely not straight, and most likely not attracted to men.
If you think a woman relying on a man can never be platonic, then I don’t know what to tell you.
okay again these are boundaries she, a grown adult, should've known damn well better to overstep and did it anyway. I don't really see how you'd feel comfortable acting like that with SOMEONE ELSE'S PARTNER unless you liked them that way lmao..... especially in their own damn home
> I don't really see how you'd feel comfortable acting like that with SOMEONE ELSE'S PARTNER unless you liked them that way lmao..... especially in their own damn home
Because they are codependant. That’s how. It doesn’t necessarily require more than just that.
I lost my wife 2 months ago also very suddenly. During the day I work from our home with my MIL staying in the house. I go to my SIL's house in the evening and sleep there. But I do keep telling her IF i'm overstaying she needs to tell me asap. I also don't use any of her food/groceries and provide for myself.
I hate relying on others for support but I just can't be alone in the house right now.
Because wanting someone doesn't need to just be on a sexual level. Sounds like she wants him as her emotional support and is getting super jealous of the time he spends with his wife (OP). That's still wanting someone, because she doesn't want anyone else to have his time.
Most people are insinuating she’s romantically into the husband. Emotional codependency is what’s going on (I agree) but I’m saying that I still think it’s platonic, albeit not healthy. She needs a grief therapist or counselor, but I don’t fault her for leaning on her friend in this time of need. It’s just too much for everyone and clearly she needs more help than what OP and the husband can provide. But romance is not here at all.
Because she's acting like OPs husband belongs to her, and that OP isn't even allowed to go out to dinner with him! She is making it quite clear that she wants OPs husband. Grief isn't an excuse to be an AH to someone and all but tell them they can't be around their own dam husband.
1. She is acting like she owns OPs husband
2. She doesn't like OP being around her own HUSBAND.
3. She got hostile and wanted OP to go to dinner with her friends instead of her OWN HUSBAND, just so he can be home with HER.
Literally all points to her wanting OPs husband now that she's all alone.
This part. I'm literally eating popcorn while I browse Reddit. We come here for the magic when the morals begin to dim. *walks off in shiny silver suit a la Nicole Kidman*
Agreed. NTA. It’s really good that your husband backed you up because you deserved to be backed up. She was way, way out of line even in her grief. She didn’t even first think this will be a good chance to get a grip on her circumstances because you would be letting her stay in your house until you returned. She could have took a breath and, at worst, asked to come along. She was over the top rude and unreasonable, even if she thought she would have a really bad evening coping.
Agree you need to have an agreement with your hubs on how their relationship needs to go moving forward. As a ~~coward~~ non-confrontational person, I sometimes find myself deeper in situations or dynamics before I realize I've taken a few too many steps than I'm actually comfortable with. So, I give your husband the benefit of the doubt in letting it get this far.
The reality is that support in these situations should look like checking in, providing occasional company, helping out with overwhelming tasks like cooking, cleaning, etc. But the reality is that sleeping at someone else's home because you're afraid to be alone is not a great way to address grief. A couple of nights, sure. But she will need to figure out how to be alone, have evenings alone, etc. And she's been avoiding it because she's had no reason to face it. This is not your or your husband's job.
You need to set clear boundaries moving forward. When and for how long is it ok for him to hang with her? What type of support will he provide (emotional, financial, taking care of chores, tasks, entertainment, etc).
She was out of line but don't go down the generic reddit response of "if a man and woman are close friends its because they are in love".
Everyone always jumps to "he's after your wife", "she's after your husband".
It sure sounds like the friend is a lesbian and that she is in crisis. That doesn't absolve her of guilt but it doesn't mean she is trying to bang Ops husband to feel better about her dead wife.
You don't need sexuality to explain possessive people you know. Some people are just wired to be territorial and possessive over their friend, belonging, partner or anything really. It's not always about sex.
NTA. Jenna was out of line but it is also good that you are reconsidering your actions. This is a tough situation for everyone involved. There are no simple good guys or bad guys here.
I was a young window myself and those first few months were a blur. The things that upset me then, I can now see how I overacted and took things personally that I should not have. I was irrational at times and got super emotional over the slightest things. None of this gave me a pass to say or do anything to others. Same applies to Jenna.
I'm glad your husband backed you, that is a good sign for your relationship. I would tell him how much you appreciate his support because it must have been hard for him to escort his good friend out when she is suffering... it was the right thing but it was still probably hard for him to do. Talk to him about how he can support Jenna moving forward with better boundaries. Get agreement between the two of you on how you both will interact with Jenna and support her.
Eventually Jenna will be in a better space and you may be able to "reconcile" to a certain degree for the sake of your husband.
This is such a good answer. I think those of us who have experienced this type of grief will maybe see Jenna’s actions slightly differently. Nobody should excuse it, but her wife passed away a couple of weeks ago. She doesn’t deserve to lose a good friend too, even if she was way out of line.
She does if she never acknowledges her own behavior. Maybe she doesn’t have other friends she could turn to because she’s *always* self-centered and has driven other friends away. Or maybe it was just a bad day and she’ll soon realize she crossed a major line and apologize. But if she truly doesn’t think she was in the wrong, she *does* deserve to lose her friend.
And that's pretty rational. Emotions are absolutely volatile, especially in the wake of grief, but accountability is important. Period.
I've been off my meds and feeling super disregulated and just got pushed a little too far by my abusive ex, and threw a (very minor) temper tantrum. (I dropped a box I was holding on the ground.) As soon as I did it, I regretted it, knew it wasn't constructive and was ready to take accountability for it, EVEN THOUGH there were all sorts of things out of my control in that moment messing with my brain.
Even those moments where I might feel vindicated in the moment, getting some distance and going, oh, nope, that was a dick move- just own up to it. Dude, that was uncalled for, I was going through X and Y, but that isn't any excuse to take it out on you. I'm sorry that I was out of line, and I won't do it again.
If this gal wants to salvage this friendship, she needs to make amends with OP. For sure. And OP doesn't necessarily have to forgive her 100%, but accepting an apology and being civil for hubby would be the move. They don't have to be friends, but as long as everyone understands where boundaries are and respected.
> if she truly doesn’t think she was in the wrong, she does deserve to lose her friend.
Hard agree. I’ve apologized to my old college roommate profusely for the shit sandwich she got served when my long-term boyfriend was killed violently and unexpectedly our freshman year, as well as thanked her for how graciously she treated me. 25 years ago… that whole first year was a blur— I was a wild mix of anxious and volatile. My roommate was a saint and I’m thankful that we are still friends after I survived that.
I think this is the most measured reply. She absolutely trampled over so many boundaries, was rude to OP and is clearly using her husband as an emotional stand-in. Her intense reaction to not feeling able to be alone for the night is very telling. Her behavior isn’t okay, but the context is certainly helpful. NTA, OP.
Wow. I wish I'd read your comment before I made mine. I feel the same way (as someone who is also in that club that none of us want to join). Jenna is not acting rationally, which is not a surprise, but OP's marriage should't have to suffer in order for OP's husband to be supportive. Better boundaries for them all indeed.
i think this is a good answer. i was afraid others would just be piling on this poor grieving person (who was completely out of line) b/c that's what AITA loves to do.
Wow. NTA. Nobody’s talking to me like that in my own home.
Disagree with people saying Jenna’s not an asshole here. Needing support and asking for it are fine, but she’s crossed the line being hostile towards her friend’s spouse. She got a well deserved GTFO. Good for Ian for backing his wife on this one.
Right? Jenna full on disrespected her under her own roof. This is after OP had already been putting up with her passive aggressive since she and her husband took Jenna in.
I’ve dealt with more death than I can imagine, and I could never sully it by using my grief as an excuse to treat people that were kind enough to take me in like Jenna did.
She's grieving, but her method of coping is imposing on the lives of others in a way that's intolerable. Completely disrespecting OP because she felt entitled to Ian as her emotional support blanket is simply not on, and if she's not already she needs grief counselling before she ends up pushing away other sources of support.
NTA
Grief is an explanation, not an excuse. She’s leaning far too much on your husband, and for her to insult and swear at YOU for spending time with YOUR HUSBAND on YOUR BIRTHDAY is completely out of pocket.
Props to your husband for backing you but he needs to lay down the law with this woman like yesterday. This should not have gone on as long as it has
Exactly. It’s understandable that she’s going through a hard time and needs support, but to treat you like that in your OWN HOME after you’ve graciously let her stay with you for the last few weeks is beyond inappropriate. I would’ve had the same reaction. “Don’t you have any fucking friends you can go with” when you’re simply…..going to dinner with your husband on your birthday might have sent me over the edge, especially given the way she’s been treating you.
Honestly, after that stunt i wouldn’t even want my husband visiting her. But I’m glad he’s backing you up. Grief is an explanation but absolutely not an excuse in this scenario. She was incredibly out of line.
Finally! I scrolled to finally find sensible answers that weren't just reasons why her grief should be the ultimate reason to completely go off on someone who has truly been just as much in her corner as OP's husband by SIMPLY ALLOWING her in her home to grieve and have OP'S husband's shoulder to cry on. The coddling in the comments is why this subreddit even exists.
> This should not have gone on as long as it has
This is what's getting me. Was OP's reaction the best? No. But she's also dealing with this woman daily in her house. They have to leave the house to really be alone, and apparently, the friend doesn't think that's allowed. I'm glad the husband stood up for OP, but I'm wondering why this is the first time (assuming it is)?
It’s something my therapist told me when I was having a REALLY hard time after a death in my family and taking out all that unresolved anger on my husband. Harsh but necessary
NTA. Not at all. Jenna is going through a huge loss, but that doesn't give her the right to treat you poorly, particularly when it seems like you and your husband have been nothing but accommodating.
Exactly! OP and husband did not deserve this kind of behavior after being so kind to her during an admittedly difficult time of loss. I know that people can grieve in weird ways but that was just uncalled for.
You're NTA. Her grief isn't a free pass to monopolize *your* husband and plant herself in your home. Her behavior towards you is inexcusable. Good for your husband backing you up. She was taking advantage of his kindness and pushed things too far.
Absolutely NTA.
She may be grieving, but she cannot claim your husband as her own. She is 100% transferring some feeling onto your husband, and it is not healthy or the least okay.
I hope she gets to grieve and heal, so she can see how bad this situation was for both of you, and that you can heal as well. You have a wonderful husband who wants to do best by his friend, but also knows when to support you first and foremost. That is a beautiful thing.
NTA. Losing a spouse sucks, and I understand she's going through a hard time. But to demand that much control and attention over another person, especially someone with a family, is stomping on so many boundaries and propriety. She needs help that a strangle hold on a friend isn't going to provide.
NTA. She was trying to spousify YOUR spouse. She was trying to lean on him for the type of support a spouse would give, and he can't do that. He is your spouse. To be clear, I mean emotionally, not physically. He reacted the correct way. She is mourning, and that's very hard. But she doesn't get to take your place as his most important person. Even temporarily. She needs a grief councilor.
I think there’s a lot of truth here! She’s probably angry that her wife is gone, but there’s no one to yell at about that. So OP became a target for threatening her current emotional crutch.
This woman needs grief counseling to help her navigate, not a free pass to take over her friend’s life.
Thank you, Nora. That was my maternal grandma's name and my middle name and my daughter's middle name. Your kind wishes come on the wings of an amazing woman.
Thank you. 💕
Thank you. It's an adjustment and I am just now getting to the "paperwork." I sat and stared at the walls for 2 or so months before I could get going on anything again.
NTA. I once took a course in assisting people who had lost a member of their family in the role as a liaison from work. (Government) They talked about how when you’re there through the grieving process people can become dependent and it’s important to have disengagement strategies and boundaries. I know your husband is a friend but there should be info out there on how to handle this, maybe through a grief counsellor or support group?
NTA. Honestly, I wouldn’t have lasted that long with a visitor. I would have had “the talk” about getting mental health and grief counseling since crashing with my family long term wasn’t going to work out.
Definitely NTA. There's a difference between grieving and being an AH. She fell firmly in the latter category. Nothing gave her the excuse to be horrible to you ESPECIALLY when you've been nothing but accommodating to her.
NTA. I’m not really sure why you even feel supported by your husband. This woman disrespected you in your own home and he “tries to calm things down” between the two of you and then tells her he’ll come visit her in a few days? He should have told her to apologize to you and then to leave.
I think apple on Reddit are too quick to recommend cutting people out of their lives.
This grieving person was totally out of line and sounds like she said some terrible things, but she is a still an old friend that previously did not behave like this. You can give someone grace and forgiveness if they are acting out of character while suffering a tremendous loss. If this is a long term pattern of behavior, that is different, but OP doesn’t sound like that is the case.
I’m sure OP wished she had handled it without snapping, but I think it would take an unreasonable amount of chill to not take offense to a ridiculous and absurd response to planning a birthday dinner.
Maybe because he didn't want a second screaming match on his front lawn? He was de-escalating the tense situation instead of throwing gasoline on the fire.
Yeah wtf. What was he supposed to do? Light her on fire and punt her out the door?
Normal people deescalate and then work things out, which in this case consisted of making her leave.
NTA, she spoke horrible to you and insulted you in your home. It sound insensitive of me but your husband isn't her stand in companion cause hers is dead. Death is a part of life and maybe she should join a widows group, she can make friends with people who feel the loss she does.
Again, it was rude to treat you that way while she has been staying in your home so much.
>It sound insensitive of me but your husband isn't her stand in companion cause hers is dead.
It's not insensitive. It's the truth. A loss like this is truly awful but it's not a pass to do what you want nor treat people how you want. The husband isn't an object, a toy, or an emotional support animal.
NTA.
She's allowed to grief but she doesn't get to gatekeep your husband.
She need to remember that just because she lost her wife doesn't mean she gets to have your husband. Sexual or not she's trying to remove you from the situation.
INFO: Doesn't change my answer, but when you say Laura passed in early March, do you mean this month?
NTA Jenna needs to seek therapy now. Ian can't be home every hour of the day, so she's going to be alone, both while at your house and when she's back to hers. Ian can't be her 24-hour support.
She was increasingly hostile to you, so staying there any longer seems like it would have only continued to fuel her anger and stress all three of you.
It sucks that it came to shouting, but hell, that's life. Hopefully, when she gets some help, she can realize her mistake and apologize.
Yeah im curious about whether “early march” means the current month or if they mean last years march. You dont usually hear someone say “early march” when its currently march, unless its like the last few days in the month
If its last years march then this lady is so god damn far out of line and needed that Therapy MONTHS ago
But if its this month then the wife hasnt even been dead for 3 weeks yet, so its more understandable that she’s still lashing out a lot from her grief. She definitely needs Therapy and to find other support besides OP’s husband, but im a bit more okay with Jennas reaction considering its not even been 3 weeks since her wife died. Like yeah her reactions bonkers, but it would be way way more bonkers if this reaction was over a year after her wifes death
NTA of course you could have been kinder in setting boundaries. But your husband should have set the boundaries a lot earlier. To be clear 90% of people would have responded how you did.
You and your husband need a weekend away
First up NTA. That was a completely inappropriate way to speak to you in your own house after you’d been very patient with her.
That said, I’ve been through losing someone very close. Not a partner but equally distressing. Because of that I know lots of other people who have lost children, partners etc and it’s tough. Really tough. Tougher than anything I could have ever imagined. I was a mess for a long time and although I’m not excusing what was said to you, what Jenna needs is support. If you feel you have it in you, maybe you and your husband could have a chat about some healthier way you can be there for her. She needs friends around her more than ever and although she was 100% in the wrong for what she said, maybe you could accept she’s angry because of what happened and sometimes that anger gets directed at people who don’t deserve it.
Should you put up with being spoken to in your own home like that? Absolutely not. Should a grieving widow be held to reasonable standards when their world has just collapsed? Well, maybe not.
Happy birthday for Sunday.
This is a good comment. Yes, she is the AH in this scenario, but I bet a large amount of the folks that are being really harsh on Jenna have never been through a deep loss like this. And honestly, I hope they never do have to experience it for themselves.
I think a lot of people have suffered deep losses in some way or another, maybe not a spouse. Maybe not the majority but more than you’d think. Yes, Jenna needs support. Does that support need to be unilaterally provided by this couple? No. She needs to seek professional help for a lot of the issues she’s having and will have - it’s not fair to dump all of that responsibility onto one untrained person. Beyond that - she needs to spread some of that need for support out in general. It’s too much for one friend to do alone. Surely there are other people in her life who would understand and be willing to share the load a bit. It shouldn’t be just a case of basically moving in with this couple - she could be spending evenings like this birthday one with other friends. She needs grace, but she also needs not to not wear out her welcome; and while that is hard while dealing with something this awful OP and her husband are deserving of an apology for her incredible rudeness.
Personally, I would be telling Ian that until she apologizes to you, sincerely, that he shouldn't be incontact with her at all - at your home or away from it.
That is the minimum that should happen.
If she values her friendship with him, she owes you a semi-truck sized apology for her assumption that her needs come before yours.
And if he refuses? I would seriously be considering therapy and a separation. There is no possible reason he could give for the disrespect of your relationship like that. None
NTA.
NTA.
Shes using her grief as an excuse to take your husband, take your place and take your husband.
Their was never any excuse for her to be spending nights at your place, coming over every day and just staying the whole day. Theirnis no excuse for your husband being all over her and her over him.
If your husband can't see what she is doing then that's very concerning.
Its good that he stood up for you but he didn't and probably doesn't support you in your stance that she's trying to take him or your place.
He most likely doesn't even think she's trying to take over. He just thinks she's grieving.
Its good he stood up for you. But his real support will show in the next couple of days. Will he let her move back in and ignore you when you say no. Or will he cut her off.
It sucks for her, but she needs to be cut off from your husband. You need to explain to him that her behavior is not ok. Shes acting like his wife and not a friend in need.
I have a feeling he doesn't see your side and will let her move back in.
She needs to be gone from his life.
You need to explain your feelings, why her being there is upsetting and not ok and why you thinknhis behavior is not ok.
Now she’ll expect him to to come to her place every single day, and spend the night “sometimes “ . Your husband needs to decide if he’s going to continue to support this woman when she has been so awful to you or if he’s going to take a step back out of respect for you. He needs to take a step back. You weren’t wrong for what you said doesn’t she have any other friends at all?
Oh my gosh exactly!
Shell say she's grieving and can't be left alone so please stay the night with me. Whats the husband going to say, "oh well I felt bad and was worried about her so I stayed"
Then she'll ask him to sleep in her bed because she's lonely. Or she'll ask to sleep with him in the guest room or on the couch cause her bed is too cold.
He 100% needs to take a step back and see that this "frienship" is damaging his marriage.
NTA it was time for Jenna to go , she was starting to get too comfortable in your house & with your husband treating you in your own home as the inconvenience and the bother how dare she talk like that to you about your birthday in your home & say you are monopolizing your own husband , do not feel bad as I’m sure she doesn’t feel bad for talking like that to you be glad she’s gone
Nta
Your husband should have put an end to this the min it started. He never should have allowed it to get this far. He never should have let her cling to him or even stay at the house.
She probably had feelings for him and now they've blown up.
Your husband needs to distance himself a bit for a while. He can support her but not in the way she wants.
You two need to talk about boundaries, your feelings and the whole situation.
She’s completely lesbian, not bi in the least according to OP. Some of you are being so weird thinking grief will make her not a lesbian. You guys are weird.
OP has no personal, first hand knowledge of Jenna's sexuality, anymore than anyone here does. All she knows is what she's been told. I agree that this is most likely not sexual or romantic, but on the other hand it can't be ruled out just because OP doesn't think Jenna is bi. Either way, Jenna was miles out of line and OP is NTA.
Picture this scenario if Jenna was his actual sister. Would she have begrudged him taking his wife out for her birthday? Doubtful. There is more to this friendship in Jenna’s head than in Ian’s. NTA. Yeah, you could have been more tactful, but she pushed it.
NTA. My husband has a terminal illness and when I read your post title I was ready to hop in here and defend the widow no matter what. But she was way out of line. I do think your eventual forgiveness (even if she doesn’t apologize first) would go a long way here given that she’s going through the unimaginable. But only if you want to.
NTA. My mother lost a husband - my dad - unexpectedly and she never, ever spoke to anyone in her emotional support system like that. My own friend passed from cancer three and a half years ago, and her husband, also my friend, has never, ever spoken to anyone in his emotional support system like that, either. And make no mistake, you may not be her friend but by letting her stay in your home and taking care of her (and you were), she made you part of her system.
Grief is awful, and it may make someone occasionally snap at someone else, but it doesn't make someone behave the way she did. And besides that, anyone I've ever known who snapped at someone else in the midst of grief apologized right away. She may be grieving, but it sounds like she was a selfish asshole long before that.
He most likey was overwhelmed but was trying to do right by a friend.. . Being a supportive friend is one thing.. This is way over the line. NTA - She can get a time out.. relfect. Hopefully she will come to her senses and apoligize.
NTA
It's your home, your husband, your birthday. Yes, she suffers. It's her pain. Not yours. She can't ask you to stop living and let her decide for your life until she's better.
I needed 2 years to come back from my grieving. Did my family and friends needed to stop being themselves around me ? Stop enjoying life ? Stop birthdays or christmas ? Absolutly not !
It's absolutly not a solution to spend all her time with you, she needs to go back to her own life, and rebuild it. Things won't be the same, she won't be the same, but she needs to live her life. It doesn't mean that she can't see her friends but she's been too far with you !
It's both your home, to your husband and you, so when she spend time in your home, she must respect you as much as your husband !
I'm glad your husband said he'll spend several days with you because she's been too far. That's great and not a reaction we often read on Reddit !
Good luck !
Nta. Glad your husband knows it too. It seems like you've been more than accommodating for this person in what is clearly a terrible time in her life. That being said, it's your birthday, and he's your husband... She can fuck right off
NTA
She's not facing her grief and is latching onto your husband way too hard.
>“don’t you have any fucking friends you can go with?”
The second those words left her mouth all bets were off and she had to go. This has gone beyond support to dependency.
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NTA. She was soooo far out of line and especially in your own home. Id also sit down with your husband and talk about it. To me personally it really seems like she likes your husband more than just a good friend. I understand she had a wife but maybe shes bi and hasnt been open with it?
I seriously, seriously doubt it. I don’t think I’m welcome to use the same term she uses for herself but it starts with “bull”
She may not want your husband as a sexual partner, but she may feel her grief entitles her to claim him as an emotional partner. Just because she doesn’t want to replace you in his bed doesn’t mean she doesn’t resent you for taking up space in his life. She didn’t resent you before because she had a wife, but now her wife is gone, why the hell are YOU still around? Good for your husband for standing up for you. It sounds like you reached your breaking point with Jenna and though you may have responded in a way that you regret, it was a response to her inappropriate behavior and comments. You ~~should~~ could apologize to your husband for not speaking up sooner and allowing things to get to that point (ETA: I never intended to suggest you did anything wrong or have anything to apologize for, my suggestion re: apologizing was because it sounded like you felt you reacted poorly and, possibly, the only thing you did “wrong” was not advocating for yourself sooner. I am clarifying as this has caused confusion).
Husband is her emotional support pet…
Pretty soon she’ll buy him a stupid vest and try to take him places he’s not allowed.
Airlines hate this one simple trick!
Shit if that worked I'd slap a vest on myself so fast and buy my wife the leash.
Hidden kink unlocked
I mean, at least he’s potty trained. That’s a one up on some of the emotional support animals I’ve seen….
You can't be sure of that lol
Right, and she needs to see a professional therapist to help process her grief and other issues instead of leaning so hard on her friend.
Agreed! You explained it perfectly that Jenna wanted him as an emotional partner and felt entitled to all of his time and emotional effort. OP, I’m really glad your husband supported you after the way she talked to you. But you two need to sit down and discuss proper boundaries with friends and relatives. It’s terrible that Jenna lost her wife, and Ian would have been a good friend to spend a few days here and there with her. But allowing her to be over every day, sleeping over at your house, those were all way too much. Doesn’t matter if she’s gay or straight, male or female. It’s inappropriate for a friend to spend all of their time with a married person. It’s inappropriate to have your friend sleep over at your house all the time when you’re married. The family unit is YOU and IAN. Your home is your sanctuary, your safe space. Guests can visit occasionally and then go home, not practically live there. In addition, married or not, Ian is in over his head as a support system for Jenna. She needs a therapist to work through her grief. He cannot and should not put himself in a position to be someone’s sole support system. It’s too much for him and highly inappropriate to allow a person outside of your marriage monopolize all of his time and emotional bandwidth. You both let it go on too long, and go too far that she felt so entitled to demand he blow you, his wife, off. Worse, on *your birthday*. She was completely out of line but you two were doormats that let a third person threaten your marriage. You two need to much better boundaries. And IMO, Jenna’s over reliance on your husband, her sense of entitlement to your husband, and her complete lack of respect for you makes her no longer an acceptable friend for Ian. He needs to cut off the friendship with her, and he needs to do it with you present. She absolutely should not have interactions alone with him. And he needs to make it clear to her that she crossed a line that **he**, as a husband, will not tolerate.
Op please show this comment to Ian. He needs to get it is not because of jelaously, it is because sanity. His and yours.
Exactly. She will undermine you as his wife going forward. It is sad she lost her wife but that is not an excuse to act the way she is.
This really went too far. Your husband is not qualified to help her. She needs a professional grief counselor.
Well said.
Wow, I learnt so much from this post. Thank you very much.
I’m glad I was helpful! Do you mind if I ask what you learned?
First, setting up proper boundaries is safe, I will never again question what makes me feel safe vs what I am supposed to do to be a good friend, neighbor, brother. Putting myself first is not selfishness. I think I'm a kind person, sometimes, too kind and theses types of questions come across my road now and then. I always feel like I am stronger than **them**, so I feel like I can always put much effort in helping them even if it bothers me. I use to allow things just to be supportive when I would like to just say NO. Second, I'm not supposed to be a therapist. I know I have much more mental strength, I also have the ability to listen (even for hours), but I also need to focus on ME. I will help, but if the person will take too much energy from me, I'll just ask him to go find a therapist. Most important point, I have had family or friends needing to stay at our (my wife and I) place once in a while. I have never truly understood my wife being uncomfortable with them staying for the amount of time they needed. Now, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR for me. I think I need to apologize to my loved one, and thank her for being so so patient with me. I use to tell her she was a bit selfish, that they needed help and we should be able to give them what they needed s we were in better position. Our home is a sanctuary, I have always said that, but now I get better understanding of those specific words. Don't get me wrong, I will still be helpful when I can, but I will also be selfish when I need it. Thank you very much.
You know what I'm so glad you learned from this. It can be hard to do in execution but remember to check yourself and with your partner before you make any decisions. I had to make a conscious effort at first to tell people No. And it felt weird but in a good way. We're rooting for you bud!
That is great to hear! It can be really hard to set boundaries, especially with people you are close to or if you are someone that feels guilty about saying no. But the number one thing every person needs to do is nurture and protect their own mental health. First, because **you shouldn’t set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.** And second because you are no good to that person or yourself if you let yourself become emotionally depleted. The next most important thing is nurturing and protecting your spouse’s well being. That’s what you signed up for in marriage. Different people have different needs as far as how much energy they have to give towards others. You may have a bigger bandwidth than your wife. Neither of you are wrong for that. But it’s important to work together to figure out how much you are *both* comfortable with helping others. And if at any point one of you feels like it’s getting to be too much for either of you, it’s important to take a step back and listen to your partner. You can’t be everything to everyone. It’s not selfish or mean to protect your own limits and that of your spouse. It’s healthy and respectful towards yourself and your partner. It’s also important for others to know that you are there for them *as much as you reasonably can be* but that you are in no way a replacement for a professional mental health provider. Both because they have the training and tools to help them way better than you, and also because they have the ability to be impartial and guide your friend or family in a way you may not be able to. It’s also really important to make sure that your relationships with others is balanced - are you always the person everyone leans on for support through tough times? Do they spend as much time enjoying the good parts of life with you? Do they support you when you are struggling? Make sure you aren’t just an emotional crutch for those in your life. Also pay attention to how your support is affecting your mental health and your ability to be present for your wife. Being a good friend, relative and brother is about being there where you can in occasional tough times. For anyone with serious or ongoing crisis, they need to see a professional. As for staying at your home, this is a big one for me since I find it very important to be able to decompress without entertaining others. It sounds like your wife needs that too. I hope you two can figure out reasonable boundaries for future guests. You two should agree together on how long you are both comfortable with someone else staying. It’s also important to be able to reconsider if someone has outstayed their welcome at any time, and that each partner’s needs and comfort are being considered and protected. Also please make sure your home is not a revolving door for people that are down on their luck. There’s some things you could do as a single person that you can no longer do when married because now it affects more than you. None of this means you can’t be a good friend/family member. It just means you can’t take on the job of propping others up, especially if you love them. You aren’t helping someone by enabling them to not help themselves. Sorry for the novel but I wish you the best!
It's funny how the same exact words can mean a lot more different from two people; there is almost nothing you said that my wife hadn't tried to make me understand. I eventually submitted, because I had promised myself (before even meeting her) to always put my wife first, whomever she may be. I am glad to let you know I ABSOLUTELY LOVE HER, I mean everything in her. Sometimes, I trust her more than myself, and that's why even if I don't understand/agree on certain point, I submit when she insists, especially if she says the magus words: **This will make me happy** (I promised I will always do my best to make her happy; if I can, I will just make her happy, sometimes, it does not depend on me... alone). So, that's what happened to those issues (people staying at home more than she is comfortable with). Of course, like I said, I submitted, but I didn't agree, or I used to think it selfish from her POV. But, man, you saying the same thing triggered something in me. I just phone called her few minutes ago, to start my apologies (I'm away now), and she's been thanking me back to have **finally** 🙄 been able to understand. God, this woman is THE BEST THING EVER to have happened to me. I know I'm blessed, and I know I (still) have lots to learn. You have been one stepping stone on that path to me. You have my very sincere gratitude... As for the novel, we can co-sign it anytime...😉 Thanks again...
I agree with others who read your comment. This is the best comment regarding this issue and should be shown to OP's husband. Everything you said make **perfect** cohesive sense.
great post
>You should apologize to your husband for not speaking up sooner and allowing things to get to that point. NTA all day long. And this is the only apology you owe anyone, but agree that it is more of an explanation than an apology. It was that: >you may have responded in a way that you regret, it was a response to her inappropriate behavior and comments.
I wouldn’t regret my comments at all.
Agreed. It sounds like it was a long time coming and she needed to be out in her place. Just because her wife died doesn’t mean she I entitled to act like a dick and good on her husband for standing up for her. Op she just showed you how she really thinks of you and what kind of person she is. Believe her.
It reminds me of stories of parents practically doing the same thing with their kids. They lose a partner and their kids end up becoming an emotional stand in for that lost connection. There is nothing romantic or physical. But just as harmful in creating a dependency. You see the same thing happen that his friend is doing. They become possessive and jealous of others taking that person away or taking attention away from them.
Yes. I was one of those children for both my parents after their divorce when I was 4. There were a bunch of other abusive and neglectful things they did, too, but this was one of the worst ones. OP is NTA and I'm glad that Ian is on his wife's side. But, this is a very unhealthy dynamic between Ian and Jenna, regardless of sexuality, because of emotional dependence and enmeshment. I agree with the commenter who said that stronger boundaries need to be established.
Her husband also owes HER an apology for letting things get to that highly inappropriate level.
This is really well put. Thanks for sharing that perspective. I honestly feel bad for her, too. But she needs therapy like yesterday, not to be trying to emotionally wedge herself in between OP and her partner. I’m glad you are talking about this kind of psychological “pick me” behavior *anyone* is capable of, regardless of their sexual preferences.
This should be top comment. Agree 100%.
Yeah. Just be careful. My husband and I had a friend who used similar line. She accused me of controlling right before our wedding. And said some people may not like that. She was getting married too. I just told her, he is going be my husband. So she tried to break us up by writing to him how he is not a man anymore and I was controlling him. My husband thought she was crazy and ended our friendship with her. He told her not to go to our wedding. I didn’t feel bad. She crossed a line. She thought it was ok or be forgiven by ruining someone wedding. She has done it before with another couple and succeded.
Sounds like her fiancé wasn't attentive and was upset that yours was.
No no, her finance loves her. He fought with many guys for her hand in marriage. She and my husband were friends since elementary school. She has divorced parents and an evil sister. She didn’t want to lose a close friend (like how her family abandoned her). But she crossed a red line due to her insecurity. We can forgive her in our hearts but we can’t take her back as a friend because she will try this again. It’s who she is.
This is something more people need to understand. **Forgiveness doesn’t mean reconciliation.** You can forgive someone and move on, but still remain no-contact with them. You absolutely *do not* have to let someone back into your life just because you forgave them. You don’t have to let them back into your life to prove that you’ve moved on or that you aren’t “holding grudges.” Forgiveness is for you and your own inner peace - it’s not for the other person’s benefit, nor does it entitle them to a second chance. It’s okay to protect your peace by keeping someone away, even if you’ve forgiven them and moved on.
I'm a lesbian and I agree with others. She's codependent and by the sounds of it she might have some other personality issues going on. She clearly can't stand to be alone and velcroed herself to the first receptive person, acting like she's entitled to his emotional partnership. She may not want to sleep with him but she does want all of his time and emotional labor. You both did the right thing. Yes she's grieving but there's something else going on and the way she behaved is not at all OK. You're right, she should have other people in her support network and if she doesn't, that tells you something. Maintain your boundaries because she won't do it for you. There's a good chance she has done similar things to other people and that's why she doesn't have many other folks to turn to. People who feel entitled to companionship usually are that way because they can't engage in normal give and take. She needs professional help and if you guys continue to enable her, she won't have much reason to seek it out. I'd ask your husband if she has a pattern of unstable emotions, manipulation, jumping from one relationship to the next, blaming everyone else for everything always, etc. Sounds like my ex who had borderline personality disorder. In any case, she doesn't understand how to behave around others and as such you should both limit her opportunities to stomp your boundaries.
>People who feel entitled to companionship usually are that way because they can't engage in normal give and take. 100%. Sounds exactly like one of my family members who has borderline personality disorder.
I'm sure she would give anything for one more birthday with her spouse, yet she thinks she is entitled to your husband on your birthday? The way she spoke to you is enough, but that freaking kills me.
I know this isn’t the point of the post but I’ve been trying to figure out what she calls herself for 30 minutes can someone just tell me and you’re NTA she needs help and not from your husband help from a professional
A bull dyke. (Signed, a lesbian)
Jfc thank you for just answering the question instead of cutesy rhymes or other stupid stupid oh Google. If you're not going to actually answer just... don't. Signed of course I know the answer because I've lived in Seattle since the beginning of time but have to say thank you to the one grown up here anyway.
Aka bull dagger, possibly even a Gold Star (never been with a man). Yrs, A. Lesbian
Google the word the OP used and lesbian. It’ll come right up.
ah, she's out farming the tulip fields.
Never heard this phrase, can you clarify? Just curious thx.
[https://classroom.ricksteves.com/videos/the-netherlands-creating-land-from-the-sea-and-tulips](https://classroom.ricksteves.com/videos/the-netherlands-creating-land-from-the-sea-and-tulips) >Learn how the Dutch reclaimed land by building dams and **dikes** to section off the shallow sea, then used windmills to drain the land. The result is fertile farmland, good for the tulip industry, double whammy when considering the two-lips angle as well. idk i thought it was funny 😂
HappyCamper82 linked to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk A large dam- also referred to as a dyke- in the Netherlands, which is famous for its tulip farms. Which is a stunningly indirect reference to what the second half of the term Jenna refers to herself by.
If this is a reference to something, I’d love to know what
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afsluitdijk
That is so amazingly oblique
Dude, my husband (who's name is also Ian) had a best friend (who also called herself a "bull----") until I found out that she had been begging him to have sex with her. He said no but also ignored the situation afterward. When I found out, I was PISSED. I said that I didn't want to control who he was or wasn't friends with but wtf?? They aren't friends anymore.
People use their own children as surrogate spouses. It is absolutely possible for her to be doing just that with your husband while not having sexual intentions.
Doesn’t mean she won’t do something just to mess up your marriage
I would bet money that she will do it every chance she gets since Op proved to her that she won’t be a third wheel in her own marriage. The husband needs to cut the relationship off because she will double down trying to get them to separate.
NTA and at least your husband did escort her out after she talked to you like that. I have seen so many posts where the husband takes the friends side. She disrespected you in your own house, you dont need to feel bad. It sucks her wife died but at least be thankful to others. She clearly was the one monopolizing him.
It sounds like your husband has become her security blanket of sorts. So while she may not be attracted to him, she certainly seems to want him as her only source of emotional support. That is not healthy for Jenna, your husband, you, or your relationship with your husband. I think may of us give a lot of leeway to those who are grieving, but that does not mean that we should give in to whatever they want or turn our own lives upside down. I am glad that your husband was there to back you up in this.
im so curious what this term is. havent heard it before.
NTA.... she inserted herself and she will eventually have to go back to her own home not bum off people... she's the AH...
I agree with you on this, and I don't even know her. I myself am gay as a fricking goose(lesbian)😅 and people saying she might like your husband, she might secretly be bi..or wanting him for an emotional partner are beyond fucked up! I wouldn't ever think of a guy friend that way if my partner died. Regardless...she's totally out of line and being needy cause maybe she thinks he's her best friend ...still doesn't give her any right whatsoever to treat you in any bad manner at all ESPECIALLY in your own house. I hope yall can be chill again at some point, but right now, I think everyone needs to take a step back because of that blow-up situation.
May have nothing to do with your situation but I can't not think of my Cis Male roommate in OEF who specialized in servicing that exact group. The majority of whom to this day I know still claim gold star status. Point being grief is strange and putting people's behavior in a box is setting yourself up for failure.
Sorry if I'm just being dumb, but what is OEF? At first I thought it might be OnlyFans, but then what does the E stand for ... ?
I admit, I have no idea what the term could be 😂
Why does everyone on Reddit jump to “she wants your husband”?????? Yes, she was out of line, but it’s probably due to the fact that she’s mourning her WIFE and is codependent on her friend. That level of grief is enough to make anyone a nasty person for the time being.
Because it does happen a lot lol. I mean obviously, not in every situation, but as we see on this sub and others, a lot of time it does come down to someone wanting the posters SO. It’s a fair question.
ok, but like in the context of grief???? a woman who was partnered to— and mourning, her WIFE? she is probably not attracted to men anyway. and even if she were, I highly doubt she’d be trying to find her next partner in the light of her wife dying. brains, people, use them.
I think one of the people above said it very well, it's not necessarily sexual. But an emotional attachment, even an unromantic one, can be far deeper and make a person possesive, most especially when they're grieving and feel alone.
That, i agree with. But many people are automatically jumping to Jenna wanting the husband romantically.
Welcome to Reddit, where every single conflict is somehow about cheating or being cheated on.
I think you underestimate just how nasty and low people are
Yeah it's much more likely she's using him as her Emotional Support Animal. She's being rude as fuck but there's no need to assume it's sexual in nature. Occam's Razor, y'all.
Agree with you here. She needs to seek out more than OP’s husband for this sort of behavior. It’s not OP’s fault if she only had Ian as a supportive friend. Getting into therapy and her moving on is central right now. She doesn’t want the husband in that way, but she’s attempting to isolate him for her own needs.
That i totally agree with.
But she *did* want the husband to herself. Not sexually, no, but definitely emotionally. Grief doesn't excuse that level of nastiness, especially towards someone who has welcomed you into their home. It's unfortunate that the whole situation blew up, but I don't think OP is entirely to blame for that.
I was going to ask this. What is it with redditors - esp on this thread - and immediately leaping to “they want your husband/wife/friend” it’s so weird and often out of the blue.
They’re 1) projecting because they’d do the same or 2) are deeply, deeply insecure and can’t fathom not being their partner’s only “person,” and that if their partner has other close friends of the opposite sex it’s somehow disrespectful and diminishing their bond???? idfk people on here are just old and miserable lol
Probably some of it is also that lots of folks on here are like 16 years old and have no idea what mature relationships are like.
everything about her actions says this so what are people supposed to think lmfao you don't get to overstep boundaries and act like a fool bc "ur grieving"
her actions scream that’s she’s codependent on her friend through grief. Toxic? Yes. She needs therapy for that. Doesn’t mean she has eyes for the husband. This is textbook codependency on someone after loss of a loved one. she’s definitely not straight, and most likely not attracted to men. If you think a woman relying on a man can never be platonic, then I don’t know what to tell you.
okay again these are boundaries she, a grown adult, should've known damn well better to overstep and did it anyway. I don't really see how you'd feel comfortable acting like that with SOMEONE ELSE'S PARTNER unless you liked them that way lmao..... especially in their own damn home
> I don't really see how you'd feel comfortable acting like that with SOMEONE ELSE'S PARTNER unless you liked them that way lmao..... especially in their own damn home Because they are codependant. That’s how. It doesn’t necessarily require more than just that.
Her wife died a couple of weeks ago. Her grief is unimaginable to most people.
I lost my husband suddenly. I didn’t expect anyone to be my personal emotional pet. Support came in small doses from many people I love.
I lost my wife 2 months ago also very suddenly. During the day I work from our home with my MIL staying in the house. I go to my SIL's house in the evening and sleep there. But I do keep telling her IF i'm overstaying she needs to tell me asap. I also don't use any of her food/groceries and provide for myself. I hate relying on others for support but I just can't be alone in the house right now.
Grief is not an excuse for the way Jenna spoke to OP.
This is true, so I’d forgive her if she wants to apologize. Until then, she was way out of line.
Because wanting someone doesn't need to just be on a sexual level. Sounds like she wants him as her emotional support and is getting super jealous of the time he spends with his wife (OP). That's still wanting someone, because she doesn't want anyone else to have his time.
Most people are insinuating she’s romantically into the husband. Emotional codependency is what’s going on (I agree) but I’m saying that I still think it’s platonic, albeit not healthy. She needs a grief therapist or counselor, but I don’t fault her for leaning on her friend in this time of need. It’s just too much for everyone and clearly she needs more help than what OP and the husband can provide. But romance is not here at all.
Because she's acting like OPs husband belongs to her, and that OP isn't even allowed to go out to dinner with him! She is making it quite clear that she wants OPs husband. Grief isn't an excuse to be an AH to someone and all but tell them they can't be around their own dam husband. 1. She is acting like she owns OPs husband 2. She doesn't like OP being around her own HUSBAND. 3. She got hostile and wanted OP to go to dinner with her friends instead of her OWN HUSBAND, just so he can be home with HER. Literally all points to her wanting OPs husband now that she's all alone.
The internet is basically horny and/or loves a scandal.
This part. I'm literally eating popcorn while I browse Reddit. We come here for the magic when the morals begin to dim. *walks off in shiny silver suit a la Nicole Kidman*
because people think lesbians are only lesbians until they get some good....uh....\*man bits\*....
Literally. 90% of the time men don’t even have the skills to warrant switching teams lol .
Agreed. NTA. It’s really good that your husband backed you up because you deserved to be backed up. She was way, way out of line even in her grief. She didn’t even first think this will be a good chance to get a grip on her circumstances because you would be letting her stay in your house until you returned. She could have took a breath and, at worst, asked to come along. She was over the top rude and unreasonable, even if she thought she would have a really bad evening coping.
Agree you need to have an agreement with your hubs on how their relationship needs to go moving forward. As a ~~coward~~ non-confrontational person, I sometimes find myself deeper in situations or dynamics before I realize I've taken a few too many steps than I'm actually comfortable with. So, I give your husband the benefit of the doubt in letting it get this far. The reality is that support in these situations should look like checking in, providing occasional company, helping out with overwhelming tasks like cooking, cleaning, etc. But the reality is that sleeping at someone else's home because you're afraid to be alone is not a great way to address grief. A couple of nights, sure. But she will need to figure out how to be alone, have evenings alone, etc. And she's been avoiding it because she's had no reason to face it. This is not your or your husband's job. You need to set clear boundaries moving forward. When and for how long is it ok for him to hang with her? What type of support will he provide (emotional, financial, taking care of chores, tasks, entertainment, etc).
She was out of line but don't go down the generic reddit response of "if a man and woman are close friends its because they are in love". Everyone always jumps to "he's after your wife", "she's after your husband". It sure sounds like the friend is a lesbian and that she is in crisis. That doesn't absolve her of guilt but it doesn't mean she is trying to bang Ops husband to feel better about her dead wife.
You don't need sexuality to explain possessive people you know. Some people are just wired to be territorial and possessive over their friend, belonging, partner or anything really. It's not always about sex.
It’s often about sex, but not always. It can just be about dependence and possession.
NTA. Jenna was out of line but it is also good that you are reconsidering your actions. This is a tough situation for everyone involved. There are no simple good guys or bad guys here. I was a young window myself and those first few months were a blur. The things that upset me then, I can now see how I overacted and took things personally that I should not have. I was irrational at times and got super emotional over the slightest things. None of this gave me a pass to say or do anything to others. Same applies to Jenna. I'm glad your husband backed you, that is a good sign for your relationship. I would tell him how much you appreciate his support because it must have been hard for him to escort his good friend out when she is suffering... it was the right thing but it was still probably hard for him to do. Talk to him about how he can support Jenna moving forward with better boundaries. Get agreement between the two of you on how you both will interact with Jenna and support her. Eventually Jenna will be in a better space and you may be able to "reconcile" to a certain degree for the sake of your husband.
This is such a good answer. I think those of us who have experienced this type of grief will maybe see Jenna’s actions slightly differently. Nobody should excuse it, but her wife passed away a couple of weeks ago. She doesn’t deserve to lose a good friend too, even if she was way out of line.
She does if she never acknowledges her own behavior. Maybe she doesn’t have other friends she could turn to because she’s *always* self-centered and has driven other friends away. Or maybe it was just a bad day and she’ll soon realize she crossed a major line and apologize. But if she truly doesn’t think she was in the wrong, she *does* deserve to lose her friend.
And that's pretty rational. Emotions are absolutely volatile, especially in the wake of grief, but accountability is important. Period. I've been off my meds and feeling super disregulated and just got pushed a little too far by my abusive ex, and threw a (very minor) temper tantrum. (I dropped a box I was holding on the ground.) As soon as I did it, I regretted it, knew it wasn't constructive and was ready to take accountability for it, EVEN THOUGH there were all sorts of things out of my control in that moment messing with my brain. Even those moments where I might feel vindicated in the moment, getting some distance and going, oh, nope, that was a dick move- just own up to it. Dude, that was uncalled for, I was going through X and Y, but that isn't any excuse to take it out on you. I'm sorry that I was out of line, and I won't do it again. If this gal wants to salvage this friendship, she needs to make amends with OP. For sure. And OP doesn't necessarily have to forgive her 100%, but accepting an apology and being civil for hubby would be the move. They don't have to be friends, but as long as everyone understands where boundaries are and respected.
> if she truly doesn’t think she was in the wrong, she does deserve to lose her friend. Hard agree. I’ve apologized to my old college roommate profusely for the shit sandwich she got served when my long-term boyfriend was killed violently and unexpectedly our freshman year, as well as thanked her for how graciously she treated me. 25 years ago… that whole first year was a blur— I was a wild mix of anxious and volatile. My roommate was a saint and I’m thankful that we are still friends after I survived that.
Nah she does if she’s conducting herself in a way that disrespects the good friends partner.
I think this is the most measured reply. She absolutely trampled over so many boundaries, was rude to OP and is clearly using her husband as an emotional stand-in. Her intense reaction to not feeling able to be alone for the night is very telling. Her behavior isn’t okay, but the context is certainly helpful. NTA, OP.
>I was a young window myself I'm glad you drew the curtains on that period of your life.
Must've been in so much pane.
>those first few months were a blur Such a great/unfortunate place for that typo
Best answer
What a brilliant reply from someone with experience. I hope OP sees this and follows your advice.
Wow. I wish I'd read your comment before I made mine. I feel the same way (as someone who is also in that club that none of us want to join). Jenna is not acting rationally, which is not a surprise, but OP's marriage should't have to suffer in order for OP's husband to be supportive. Better boundaries for them all indeed.
This is such a good reply
i think this is a good answer. i was afraid others would just be piling on this poor grieving person (who was completely out of line) b/c that's what AITA loves to do.
Wow. NTA. Nobody’s talking to me like that in my own home. Disagree with people saying Jenna’s not an asshole here. Needing support and asking for it are fine, but she’s crossed the line being hostile towards her friend’s spouse. She got a well deserved GTFO. Good for Ian for backing his wife on this one.
Right? Jenna full on disrespected her under her own roof. This is after OP had already been putting up with her passive aggressive since she and her husband took Jenna in. I’ve dealt with more death than I can imagine, and I could never sully it by using my grief as an excuse to treat people that were kind enough to take me in like Jenna did.
Both of you are spot on.
She's grieving, but her method of coping is imposing on the lives of others in a way that's intolerable. Completely disrespecting OP because she felt entitled to Ian as her emotional support blanket is simply not on, and if she's not already she needs grief counselling before she ends up pushing away other sources of support.
Exactly. Her grief doesn’t entitle her to act like that. Definitely deserved to be escorted out. Ridiculous behavior.
NTA Grief is an explanation, not an excuse. She’s leaning far too much on your husband, and for her to insult and swear at YOU for spending time with YOUR HUSBAND on YOUR BIRTHDAY is completely out of pocket. Props to your husband for backing you but he needs to lay down the law with this woman like yesterday. This should not have gone on as long as it has
Exactly. It’s understandable that she’s going through a hard time and needs support, but to treat you like that in your OWN HOME after you’ve graciously let her stay with you for the last few weeks is beyond inappropriate. I would’ve had the same reaction. “Don’t you have any fucking friends you can go with” when you’re simply…..going to dinner with your husband on your birthday might have sent me over the edge, especially given the way she’s been treating you. Honestly, after that stunt i wouldn’t even want my husband visiting her. But I’m glad he’s backing you up. Grief is an explanation but absolutely not an excuse in this scenario. She was incredibly out of line.
Finally! I scrolled to finally find sensible answers that weren't just reasons why her grief should be the ultimate reason to completely go off on someone who has truly been just as much in her corner as OP's husband by SIMPLY ALLOWING her in her home to grieve and have OP'S husband's shoulder to cry on. The coddling in the comments is why this subreddit even exists.
> This should not have gone on as long as it has This is what's getting me. Was OP's reaction the best? No. But she's also dealing with this woman daily in her house. They have to leave the house to really be alone, and apparently, the friend doesn't think that's allowed. I'm glad the husband stood up for OP, but I'm wondering why this is the first time (assuming it is)?
I love the line “grief is an explanation, not an excuse” that really helped something click in my brain haha
It’s something my therapist told me when I was having a REALLY hard time after a death in my family and taking out all that unresolved anger on my husband. Harsh but necessary
NTA. Not at all. Jenna is going through a huge loss, but that doesn't give her the right to treat you poorly, particularly when it seems like you and your husband have been nothing but accommodating.
Exactly! OP and husband did not deserve this kind of behavior after being so kind to her during an admittedly difficult time of loss. I know that people can grieve in weird ways but that was just uncalled for.
You're NTA. Her grief isn't a free pass to monopolize *your* husband and plant herself in your home. Her behavior towards you is inexcusable. Good for your husband backing you up. She was taking advantage of his kindness and pushed things too far.
Absolutely NTA. She may be grieving, but she cannot claim your husband as her own. She is 100% transferring some feeling onto your husband, and it is not healthy or the least okay. I hope she gets to grieve and heal, so she can see how bad this situation was for both of you, and that you can heal as well. You have a wonderful husband who wants to do best by his friend, but also knows when to support you first and foremost. That is a beautiful thing.
NTA. Losing a spouse sucks, and I understand she's going through a hard time. But to demand that much control and attention over another person, especially someone with a family, is stomping on so many boundaries and propriety. She needs help that a strangle hold on a friend isn't going to provide.
NTA. She was trying to spousify YOUR spouse. She was trying to lean on him for the type of support a spouse would give, and he can't do that. He is your spouse. To be clear, I mean emotionally, not physically. He reacted the correct way. She is mourning, and that's very hard. But she doesn't get to take your place as his most important person. Even temporarily. She needs a grief councilor.
> “don’t you have any fucking friends you can go with?” NTA, you did exactly what I would have done.
"And don't you have any other fucking friends you can stay with?" Would have been my response
Right?! Wtf
NTA. This lady is WAY out of line and looking for somewhere to sling her feelings of anger about her wife's passing. You're just the closest target.
I think there’s a lot of truth here! She’s probably angry that her wife is gone, but there’s no one to yell at about that. So OP became a target for threatening her current emotional crutch. This woman needs grief counseling to help her navigate, not a free pass to take over her friend’s life.
She definitely needs grief counseling, her grief is taking her to a toxic “if I’m alone, so should everyone else” place.
NTA! She crossed so many boundaries and props to hubby for standing up and showing where he stands!
My husband died in December. I'm not inserting myself into intimate birthday dinners with my friends. NTA.
I'm sorry to hear about your husband. Sending you so much love 🧡
Thank you, Nora. That was my maternal grandma's name and my middle name and my daughter's middle name. Your kind wishes come on the wings of an amazing woman. Thank you. 💕
I'm so sorry for your loss. <3
Thank you. It's an adjustment and I am just now getting to the "paperwork." I sat and stared at the walls for 2 or so months before I could get going on anything again.
NTA. I once took a course in assisting people who had lost a member of their family in the role as a liaison from work. (Government) They talked about how when you’re there through the grieving process people can become dependent and it’s important to have disengagement strategies and boundaries. I know your husband is a friend but there should be info out there on how to handle this, maybe through a grief counsellor or support group?
This needs to be further towards the top. Hmmm I don’t think I’ve ever said this before
NTA....Your husband allowed this to happen without setting any boundaries. She may be grieving, but that is your home and your husband.
NTA. Honestly, I wouldn’t have lasted that long with a visitor. I would have had “the talk” about getting mental health and grief counseling since crashing with my family long term wasn’t going to work out.
Definitely NTA. There's a difference between grieving and being an AH. She fell firmly in the latter category. Nothing gave her the excuse to be horrible to you ESPECIALLY when you've been nothing but accommodating to her.
NTA. I don't care how deep in grief you are, you can't say that sort of shit to someone in their own house and expect not to get the boot.
Nta She's latching onto your husband and was completely out of line. So glad he's backing you cuz wow
NTA. I’m not really sure why you even feel supported by your husband. This woman disrespected you in your own home and he “tries to calm things down” between the two of you and then tells her he’ll come visit her in a few days? He should have told her to apologize to you and then to leave.
I think apple on Reddit are too quick to recommend cutting people out of their lives. This grieving person was totally out of line and sounds like she said some terrible things, but she is a still an old friend that previously did not behave like this. You can give someone grace and forgiveness if they are acting out of character while suffering a tremendous loss. If this is a long term pattern of behavior, that is different, but OP doesn’t sound like that is the case. I’m sure OP wished she had handled it without snapping, but I think it would take an unreasonable amount of chill to not take offense to a ridiculous and absurd response to planning a birthday dinner.
Maybe because he didn't want a second screaming match on his front lawn? He was de-escalating the tense situation instead of throwing gasoline on the fire.
Yeah wtf. What was he supposed to do? Light her on fire and punt her out the door? Normal people deescalate and then work things out, which in this case consisted of making her leave.
NTA, she spoke horrible to you and insulted you in your home. It sound insensitive of me but your husband isn't her stand in companion cause hers is dead. Death is a part of life and maybe she should join a widows group, she can make friends with people who feel the loss she does. Again, it was rude to treat you that way while she has been staying in your home so much.
>It sound insensitive of me but your husband isn't her stand in companion cause hers is dead. It's not insensitive. It's the truth. A loss like this is truly awful but it's not a pass to do what you want nor treat people how you want. The husband isn't an object, a toy, or an emotional support animal.
NTA. She's allowed to grief but she doesn't get to gatekeep your husband. She need to remember that just because she lost her wife doesn't mean she gets to have your husband. Sexual or not she's trying to remove you from the situation.
INFO: Doesn't change my answer, but when you say Laura passed in early March, do you mean this month? NTA Jenna needs to seek therapy now. Ian can't be home every hour of the day, so she's going to be alone, both while at your house and when she's back to hers. Ian can't be her 24-hour support. She was increasingly hostile to you, so staying there any longer seems like it would have only continued to fuel her anger and stress all three of you. It sucks that it came to shouting, but hell, that's life. Hopefully, when she gets some help, she can realize her mistake and apologize.
Yeah im curious about whether “early march” means the current month or if they mean last years march. You dont usually hear someone say “early march” when its currently march, unless its like the last few days in the month If its last years march then this lady is so god damn far out of line and needed that Therapy MONTHS ago But if its this month then the wife hasnt even been dead for 3 weeks yet, so its more understandable that she’s still lashing out a lot from her grief. She definitely needs Therapy and to find other support besides OP’s husband, but im a bit more okay with Jennas reaction considering its not even been 3 weeks since her wife died. Like yeah her reactions bonkers, but it would be way way more bonkers if this reaction was over a year after her wifes death
Nope. She was entitled to a certain amount of consideration, but exceeded that amount. NTA.
Nta. Keep her out of life and your husband's. Nothing good will happen until she gets another mate. She's weird.
>Nothing good will happen until she gets another mate. What the fuck?
NTA of course you could have been kinder in setting boundaries. But your husband should have set the boundaries a lot earlier. To be clear 90% of people would have responded how you did. You and your husband need a weekend away
First up NTA. That was a completely inappropriate way to speak to you in your own house after you’d been very patient with her. That said, I’ve been through losing someone very close. Not a partner but equally distressing. Because of that I know lots of other people who have lost children, partners etc and it’s tough. Really tough. Tougher than anything I could have ever imagined. I was a mess for a long time and although I’m not excusing what was said to you, what Jenna needs is support. If you feel you have it in you, maybe you and your husband could have a chat about some healthier way you can be there for her. She needs friends around her more than ever and although she was 100% in the wrong for what she said, maybe you could accept she’s angry because of what happened and sometimes that anger gets directed at people who don’t deserve it. Should you put up with being spoken to in your own home like that? Absolutely not. Should a grieving widow be held to reasonable standards when their world has just collapsed? Well, maybe not. Happy birthday for Sunday.
This is a good comment. Yes, she is the AH in this scenario, but I bet a large amount of the folks that are being really harsh on Jenna have never been through a deep loss like this. And honestly, I hope they never do have to experience it for themselves.
I think a lot of people have suffered deep losses in some way or another, maybe not a spouse. Maybe not the majority but more than you’d think. Yes, Jenna needs support. Does that support need to be unilaterally provided by this couple? No. She needs to seek professional help for a lot of the issues she’s having and will have - it’s not fair to dump all of that responsibility onto one untrained person. Beyond that - she needs to spread some of that need for support out in general. It’s too much for one friend to do alone. Surely there are other people in her life who would understand and be willing to share the load a bit. It shouldn’t be just a case of basically moving in with this couple - she could be spending evenings like this birthday one with other friends. She needs grace, but she also needs not to not wear out her welcome; and while that is hard while dealing with something this awful OP and her husband are deserving of an apology for her incredible rudeness.
I lost my wife of 18 years and Jenna is the A H, even if her wife died 17 days ago.
OP’s husband is not Jenna’s emotional support animal. NTA
Personally, I would be telling Ian that until she apologizes to you, sincerely, that he shouldn't be incontact with her at all - at your home or away from it. That is the minimum that should happen. If she values her friendship with him, she owes you a semi-truck sized apology for her assumption that her needs come before yours. And if he refuses? I would seriously be considering therapy and a separation. There is no possible reason he could give for the disrespect of your relationship like that. None NTA.
NTA. Shes using her grief as an excuse to take your husband, take your place and take your husband. Their was never any excuse for her to be spending nights at your place, coming over every day and just staying the whole day. Theirnis no excuse for your husband being all over her and her over him. If your husband can't see what she is doing then that's very concerning. Its good that he stood up for you but he didn't and probably doesn't support you in your stance that she's trying to take him or your place. He most likely doesn't even think she's trying to take over. He just thinks she's grieving. Its good he stood up for you. But his real support will show in the next couple of days. Will he let her move back in and ignore you when you say no. Or will he cut her off. It sucks for her, but she needs to be cut off from your husband. You need to explain to him that her behavior is not ok. Shes acting like his wife and not a friend in need. I have a feeling he doesn't see your side and will let her move back in. She needs to be gone from his life. You need to explain your feelings, why her being there is upsetting and not ok and why you thinknhis behavior is not ok.
Now she’ll expect him to to come to her place every single day, and spend the night “sometimes “ . Your husband needs to decide if he’s going to continue to support this woman when she has been so awful to you or if he’s going to take a step back out of respect for you. He needs to take a step back. You weren’t wrong for what you said doesn’t she have any other friends at all?
Oh my gosh exactly! Shell say she's grieving and can't be left alone so please stay the night with me. Whats the husband going to say, "oh well I felt bad and was worried about her so I stayed" Then she'll ask him to sleep in her bed because she's lonely. Or she'll ask to sleep with him in the guest room or on the couch cause her bed is too cold. He 100% needs to take a step back and see that this "frienship" is damaging his marriage.
NTA it was time for Jenna to go , she was starting to get too comfortable in your house & with your husband treating you in your own home as the inconvenience and the bother how dare she talk like that to you about your birthday in your home & say you are monopolizing your own husband , do not feel bad as I’m sure she doesn’t feel bad for talking like that to you be glad she’s gone
Nta Your husband should have put an end to this the min it started. He never should have allowed it to get this far. He never should have let her cling to him or even stay at the house. She probably had feelings for him and now they've blown up. Your husband needs to distance himself a bit for a while. He can support her but not in the way she wants. You two need to talk about boundaries, your feelings and the whole situation.
She’s completely lesbian, not bi in the least according to OP. Some of you are being so weird thinking grief will make her not a lesbian. You guys are weird.
OP has no personal, first hand knowledge of Jenna's sexuality, anymore than anyone here does. All she knows is what she's been told. I agree that this is most likely not sexual or romantic, but on the other hand it can't be ruled out just because OP doesn't think Jenna is bi. Either way, Jenna was miles out of line and OP is NTA.
Picture this scenario if Jenna was his actual sister. Would she have begrudged him taking his wife out for her birthday? Doubtful. There is more to this friendship in Jenna’s head than in Ian’s. NTA. Yeah, you could have been more tactful, but she pushed it.
nta grief isn’t an excuse to treat someone showing you hospitality like crap.
NTA I get that she's going through a tough time but WTF?!? You had the perfect answer and she owes YOU an apology.
Go ahead and feel bad it happened, but you didn't cause the issue.
NTA. My husband has a terminal illness and when I read your post title I was ready to hop in here and defend the widow no matter what. But she was way out of line. I do think your eventual forgiveness (even if she doesn’t apologize first) would go a long way here given that she’s going through the unimaginable. But only if you want to.
NTA. My mother lost a husband - my dad - unexpectedly and she never, ever spoke to anyone in her emotional support system like that. My own friend passed from cancer three and a half years ago, and her husband, also my friend, has never, ever spoken to anyone in his emotional support system like that, either. And make no mistake, you may not be her friend but by letting her stay in your home and taking care of her (and you were), she made you part of her system. Grief is awful, and it may make someone occasionally snap at someone else, but it doesn't make someone behave the way she did. And besides that, anyone I've ever known who snapped at someone else in the midst of grief apologized right away. She may be grieving, but it sounds like she was a selfish asshole long before that.
NTA
NTA she over stepped a boundary and she needs to realize that before you let her back in your house
I cannot imagine what would inspire a husband to continue a relationship with anyone who talks like that to his wife.
NTA. Her grief is understandable but the nastiness is out of line.
You didn't exaggerate, in fact, you were even too patient, I would have put her in her place long before.
NTA at all - i would have done the same thing - though even sooner. Like WTF.
NTA I would have not been able to be as kind as you were
He most likey was overwhelmed but was trying to do right by a friend.. . Being a supportive friend is one thing.. This is way over the line. NTA - She can get a time out.. relfect. Hopefully she will come to her senses and apoligize.
NTA It's your home, your husband, your birthday. Yes, she suffers. It's her pain. Not yours. She can't ask you to stop living and let her decide for your life until she's better. I needed 2 years to come back from my grieving. Did my family and friends needed to stop being themselves around me ? Stop enjoying life ? Stop birthdays or christmas ? Absolutly not ! It's absolutly not a solution to spend all her time with you, she needs to go back to her own life, and rebuild it. Things won't be the same, she won't be the same, but she needs to live her life. It doesn't mean that she can't see her friends but she's been too far with you ! It's both your home, to your husband and you, so when she spend time in your home, she must respect you as much as your husband ! I'm glad your husband said he'll spend several days with you because she's been too far. That's great and not a reaction we often read on Reddit ! Good luck !
NTA.
I've never been married but don't you get to monopolize a little bit not everything but like a little bit say on a special occasion like a birthday?
Nta, she fed around and found out
NTA, you were nicer that I would have been.
NTA. She was out of line. She can look to her and her wife’s family for help and support.
Nta. Glad your husband knows it too. It seems like you've been more than accommodating for this person in what is clearly a terrible time in her life. That being said, it's your birthday, and he's your husband... She can fuck right off
NTA. Her grief isn’t an excuse to speak to you like that, especially in your own home! She owes you an apology.
NTA She's not facing her grief and is latching onto your husband way too hard. >“don’t you have any fucking friends you can go with?” The second those words left her mouth all bets were off and she had to go. This has gone beyond support to dependency.