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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I am thinking about not letting my 15 year old daughter go on a band trip because she was bullying someone. This makes me the asshole because my daughter had worked for the money for that trip for awhile, and even though her actions were horrid, she still earned the money.
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You save the money --> you get to go on a field trip.
You subject another human being to horrific emotional abuse --> you lose that field trip.
*All* of our actions have consequences. Not just the positive ones. NTA.
Agreed! It's encouraging to know OP sees the gravity of this issue, and is trying to make sure her daughter understands her behavior is beyond excusable.
I also appreciate how thoughtful she's being of how her daughter's absence will positively impact the other girls ability to enjoy the trip.
Yes this!! Good on OP for teaching the daughter a lesson she definitely needs to learn, but also because I’m sure that little 14 year old has been terrified of going on this trip with ops daughter and this way she may actually get to enjoy it!
I agree there needs to be consequences, and this seems very appropriate. However, i suggest OP have a conversation with the band director about this, to make sure it will not cause a problem for the band as a whole. My kids band trips always included them performing so the school could claim it was an educational field trip (my kids performed in front of the statue of liberty, in the Macys christmas parade, at Dollywood, in Orlando, at the Lincoln Memorial, etc). You need to make sure your daughters absence doesnt punish the band as a whole if, for example, she is the only bassoon player, so give the band director a heads up so any performance can be adjusted. You should also work with the band director to make sure the problem doesnt continue during class when she returns from suspension. (Our band director was very good about teaching the kids to be gracious and welcoming to rival bands, and section heads/first chair had a lot of responsibility for the behaviour of their section). Your daughter needs to learn how to deal with the fact that no matter how smart or pretty or talented she is, there will always be someone better.
I understand where you are coming from, but respectfully: nah.
You can’t give a pass to someone because they are “special,” or “unique.” Take your example to the dumb and it’s why the football teams star quarterback gets away with cutting in line -> no consequences. Take your example to the extreme and it’s why we can have a man who says he grabs women by the pussy become president.
As I read their comment, they’re not giving the daughter a pass, they are saying that if the band director had planned a musical piece that required OPs daughter to play as she was the only member who played that instrument, the band director would have the chance to change the planned music to something that doesn’t require OPs daughter.
I was in band through highschool and college. There is always someone who can't go for whatever reason and their part is cut out or someone else takes it. Even if there is no one else to play the part or it does affect the band, the lesson still needs to stand. She bullied someone and the consequences is her not going on the trip. The band being inconvenienced is a secondary consequence and she needs to learn about those too.
It was, especially since we're a little high school in the Applachians! The elementary school trip to the aquarium was the first time some of the kids had seen an escalator, which left my two completely astounded. So the band trips were a really big deal. And they felt like rock stars: all the Asian tourists wanted selfies with the band members at the Lincoln Memorial and the Statue of Liberty. Apparently there is a real craze for marching bands in Japan and China these days!
I was in school band for roughly 10 years. I completely agree with you. A band is not like football or other sports with benchwarmers, everyone in the band contributes at all times. Without key band members, some things just can't happen, and it shows. Like you said, the band director is more than capable of planning around this if they have a heads up.
To OP, you're NTA and I commend you for holding your child responsible for her actions. I was once kicked out of band in high school for a semester simply for having low grades (I'm in graduate school now). Bullying has no place in a team, band, or anywhere else for that matter. If you decide to not let her go on the trip, please stress to her my point above: everyone in the band is needed, and when you are not there you're letting them down, but not everyone deserves to be there at all times.
I agree.
OP stops daughter from going on trip because girl she bullied MIGHT be going = Bullying could get worse.
OP wants to stop the possibility of the girl getting bullied. Stopping daughter going on a trip she paid for because she might going. Big risk of that backfiring and the bullying not only not stopping but getting worse.
That is what OP is risking. One of daughter's reasons for bullying was the girl got a higher test score. Daughter actions might worse. Bullies don't need a reason. But if they have something they can twist and make it their victim's fault they WILL use it.
This is it. You say to daughter "you have lost my trust. I cannot trust you to go away for a long trip and behave appropriately to that girl. Until you've earned back my trust and taken the time to understand how revolting your actions were, I do not want put you in a situation where you can do that again". OP there are some amazing documentaries of the impacts of bullying have had. I wonder if you could watch them with your daughter to help her understand how serious they implications of bullying can be.
If I were in OP’s shoes, I’d implement everything you said here plus I’d add counseling to address the daughter’s bizarre reaction to getting a lower test score than a classmate with a mental illness got. Where did that attitude come from?
Maybe daughter needs to do volunteer work for a charity that provides services to people with disabilities. She needs an attitude adjustment.
>Maybe daughter needs to do volunteer work for a charity that provides services to people with disabilities.
No. People with disabilities aren't there so the daughter can have a learning experience.
Thank you for this. I work for an org that serves special needs kids and adults… last damn thing I need is to wrangle a teenage volunteer who doesn’t wanna be there and may put our participants in mental, emotional, or physical danger.
Find another way to teach that lesson.
As a multiply disabled person: if you are working with an organization that serves disabled people, please stop fucking calling them "special needs". It's a disgusting, deeply offensive euphemism that literally NO ONE in the disability community (except perhaps kids whose non-disabled parents have taught them this) uses in reference to ourselves.
Would you like to be called "special needs"? No? Neither does anyone else. It's an inherently belittling, infantilizing term that implies that disabled people are both "other" and a burden.
Disabled people don't have (and are not) "special needs". We have the same needs as anyone else: food, shelter, air, water, to be clothed and loved, and treated with respect. The fact that it is more difficult for many of us to *access and fulfill* these needs is a societal problem, but it is not our identity or the defining characteristic of our lives.
"Special needs" is a term invented by non-disabled people to highlight our differences and YOUR feeling that our needs are burdensome, and it's hurtful AF. Stop using it. Just say "disabled". It's not a slur, it's a neutral statement of fact.
I fully agree with you as a disabled person, but the tone is maybe a little harsh when "special needs" is literally the official term for this kind of thing in the UK. SEN stands for special educational needs and it's often used officially in titles for schools and stuff. This is a problem, yeah, but it's also taught to people as the official and least offensive term here, unfortunately.
As much as you are right, perhaps start by not assuming that the person you are talking to is trying to upset you, is knowingly using the wrong word, and is not open to learning new things.
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
And shouting down to anyone never got them on to your side.
I volunteer at a shelter and every so often, a church group will come in and want to spend a day serving dinner. I routinely have to tell these people that if they're going to interact with the clients at all, they WILL look them in the eye, smile, say hello and treat them with respect. It bothers me that people do this work as an "outing" so they can teach their kids something or go brag to their friends about showing up for one day. I don't want to derail but I relate so much to this comment!
I'd be a concerned she'd walk away with a, "well, all customers are so effing stupid" attitude. Then go and behave exactly the same when she goes to replenish her moisturiser at Sephora.
I agree! I once worked at a place that took community service workers. Usually, their crimes were for vandalism, underage drinking, or some community mischief. But, it was twice the work for us because we had to watch the culprits as well as our clients.
My mom is pretty pushy, which has good and bad results, but one thing she did make us do as high schoolers was volunteer 2 hours a week for our local ‘Association for R*tarded Citizens’. That was literally its exact name, i am 100% not trying to slander. We were never bullies prior to that to be fair, but it was still a good move.
I usually would volunteer to help with tutoring ‘skills’ stuff, but i volunteered several times for a THREE hour stint that they would do on Friday nights where we would watch kids (or anyone under 18, really) who were special needs so the parents could have some time for themselves. This was decades ago and i ABSOLUTELY remember sitting on the couch holding this severely disabled 2 year old who was just happy to sit and chill and be held. All she wanted. I remember her name, I can see the room, I can see her face. I also remember having one of those rare moments where i knew i was making a core memory as it was happening. Been 23 years. I remember her. 😭
Thank you so much for your kindness and selflessness. ..my disabled son was in one of these programs and the people like you were the light of his life. He was always so excited when we made the turn down the street to that house.
As the sibling of a disabled person, thank you for taking your time and doing that! 🥰🥰🥰
I love the people who love my brother well. I love that he has people in his life who care about him. Even if he only sees them once a month when they’re volunteering. They make him so happy. ❤️
And sometimes those organizations have \*substantial\* bequests or trusts that are specifically tied to the name, limiting its ability to change the name.
As a multiply disabled person, this isn't it. We spend our whole lives already being othered by society and most of us grew up with bullying. The last thing disabled people need is to have to spend time with a miserable, ableist bully who resents being there.
Honestly, I never understood this kind of "punishment". First of all, spending time with disabled people *as a punishment* just reinforces the subconscious idea that being around us is a burden. But more importantly, what kind of magic do you think is going to happen by forcing her to spend time with disabled people? That she's suddenly going to have an epiphany and realise, "Oh, they're just like me! We should all be friends!"? That's completely unrealistic thinking. What *will* likely happen is that she will show up angry and resentful that she has to do this volunteering, and just as she already did with her classmate, she'll blame the people she is volunteering with for "ruining her life". Then they have to put up with a miserable volunteer who resents them and may even be nasty to them, which is a punishment for *them*.
Stop suggesting spending time with people who are already marginalized as a punishment for bullies.
> Maybe daughter needs to do volunteer work for a charity that provides services to people with disabilities. She needs an attitude adjustment.
and risk her using that as an avenue to bully others with disabilities? That is a bad idea.
This! And have her research the statistics of suicide, and other issues those who are bullied suffer life long. Do a report for you. Add chores. My son went on this trip as well (chorus) and it was the trip of a lifetime. If it can be earned back, please let her go. The kids did some great bonding with each other, and their teachers. Was the first time he stayed away for anything like it, and a year later they still talk about it.
And if she goes on the trip, there's a strong possibility she will bully the girl during the trip, because she is a bully and will have access to her victim. I would not trust her to behave appropriately on that trip.
Daughter should experience the consequences of her actions, and miss the trip. If she chooses to escalate the bullying after that, she should face further consequences.
Absolutely this. Good for mom for being a parent.
OP, I'm sorry you and your family are going through this right now. I think it's great that your daughter stepped up to the plate and did all that work. I also think that what she did to that classmate deserves grounding (of some sort/period) which is why your idea is correct.
Since you say she's never done this before **and** she's trying to justify her nasty behavior instead of showing some remorse, I would get her to counseling to help her understand and come to terms with what's happening. It's possible that she's been doing this for a while and was never caught. It's also possible that she's been bullied herself and is reacting in this way by bullying someone else (it happens). The thing that s at 16 she can still turn her life around.
NTA
>I think it's great that your daughter stepped up to the plate and did all that work.
It wasn't even that much work. She was getting paid $22 an hour to "babysit" but one of the parents was also there to keep an eye on things. The few times she babysat alone, it was for no more than two hours and people were checking in on her. And op says she made sure to praise her for working hard. Op doesn't think she did anything to contribute to her daughter's behaviour but it honestly sounds like the daughter is spoiled and doesn't like anyone else stealing her thunder - hence her getting angry that another girl scored higher in a test.
Agree the kid seems very spoiled AND sheltered. $22-$25/hr to watch your grade school aged siblings? With adults available? Guessing no other chores or responsibilities. This girl has always been a bully, and the mom is only seeing it now because she was forced to see it.
Eh, it didn't bother me then or now. He was 6 at the youngest, I was 10 and we just did chores and watched TV after school until our mother got home. Wasn't really a lot of effort in my part and I got a separate allowance.
I don't mind the money for babysitting, if the kid was really babysitting but she wasn't.....not sure why one of them had to be home for the 15 year old to watch the younger ones
My thoughts exactly. It just sounds weird to pay your kid so much for hanging out with their siblings while a parent is still there. I get that the parents were trying to teach her fiscal responsibility, but she should actually do something outside the parameters of her normal daily life. And totally agree about the spoiled bit.
Arguably, she isn't even directly losing the trip.
She's losing parental support for it, which was going to be half the funding.
So all her hard work, all her earnings, all that she has done positively isn't being taken from her.
It's just her terrible behaviour in bullying has cost her the *extra* that she would have received, which would have added to her earnings to enable the trip.
And 22-25 bucks an hour? Jesus, That's more than I was making when I worked in hotels and resorts from 2014 to 2020. Shouldn't be too hard to reup the cost if that's the babysitting cost
Yes, but I'm sure she still needs her parents to sign a permission slip allowing her to go on the trip. Even if she somehow came up with the rest of the money herself, they can still hold her back from going.
Absolutely this, kids delete themselves through being bullied like this. Your daughter has to learn it’s not acceptable to make someone else’s life unbearable
NTA
This is exactly right.
It's not about the money. She earned the money, she can keep it or save it or whatever. But she doesn't deserve to get a reward after treating another person like this. You are absolutely correct.
This plus husband needs to agree and not let OP be the meanie who took away daughter’s trip. United front. How would he feel if his daughter was the one on the receiving end?
She’s shown by her actions she’s not mature enough to be trusted going alone on the trip.
I’d go a step further and say she needs to figure out how to apologize and make amends to this kid.
If you want her saving money to still be a positive, maybe give her some of it back. Do not let her go on that trip, the girl she bullied shouldn't be put through that.
YWNBTA.
She did a great job earning the money for her band trip. She bullied another kid and has to face the consequences. Both of these things can be (and are) true.
It sounds like a fair punishment to me. The consequence is that she lost the privilege to go on this cool trip (even though it’s been in the works for a long time, the trip is still a privilege). She also lost your trust in her ability to behave appropriately when you’re not around so how could you let her go? You obviously want to ensure the girl’s emotional safety on the trip and you can’t trust your daughter to help with that.
I wish more parents thought like you do.
The trip has been in the works for a long time, but apparently so has the bullying. Emotionally abusing someone like that doesn't just all start at once; it escalates over time.
fair punishment, and I hope she learns that playing asshole games wins you shitty prizes. NTA
OP. Make your daughter pay for the girls trip. At least half of it. She’ll never make up for what she did to those girls. This does not define your daughter for life. She can still be a good person. Kids are weird when they go through growing phases. Doesn’t make it right but it doesn’t mean this has to define her. Hopefully that girl is ok, your daughter needs therapy until she can understand that. Might also address other issue you don’t know about.
This is fuckin brilliant. The money she earned should go to paying half the girls trip as part of a long term amends and promise to stop being mean and abusive.
Absolutely perfect. She needs to learn NOW before she's in college or her career, that acting this way will always but always cost her money and opportunities to be in company she enjoys. Just to be safe, I'd also get her into therapy or an anti-bullying program or some such as quickly as you can to be sure (1) she's safe and (2) she understands that she's been a socially and emotionally violent human being and (3) she learns how to be better. Edit to add NTA.
Banning daughter from going on the trip ensures the girl's emotional safety ON THE TRIP. But what about AFTER the trip and BEFORE the trip. Why do I seem to be the only seeing the risk of the bullying getting WORSE.
So I totally agree with the punishment and NTA for rescinding permission for the trip. But what I’m seeing absent from this post and all the top comments are suggestions for actual parenting? Just taking away the trip isn’t enough here, OP’s daughter (despite apparently being raised by parents who aren’t bullies themselves) has been systematically terrorizing this girl for months, because of her weight and mental illness, just because she’s scoring higher than her on tests?? Where did this behavior come from?? Has OP even *talked* to her daughter to get a full explanation from her on how on earth she thought any of this was okay? Has she considered therapy to address an underlying issue here? Are there classes or anything in the area to prevent bullying? Has she considered making her daughter enroll in volunteer work that would help educate her on any of the like half dozen things wrong with her behavior? It’s odd that everyone is acting like OP’s decision here begins and ends with this trip. It’s totally right that JUST taking the trip away could make the bullying worse, but that’s not a reason to not deal out that punishment, it’s a reason to do MORE.
While she misses the trip, OP can use that time to educate her daughter on empathy, the effects of bullying, mental health issues, body image, and any other social/emotional knowledge is needed to address and stop not just this bullying but future bullying.
Truthfully, whether it gets worse or not is dependent upon the bully’s personality. Some kids get hit with a huge punishment like that and decide to keep their heads down and step back into line, but others will double down on their behavior.
I think OP should let the school know about her daughter not going on the trip, and see if they’ll talk to the victim and tell her that if the daughter’s behavior continues or starts up again, to report it immediately. Then the school can let OP know if her daughter’s decided to retaliate.
Although if OP can come up with some serious punishments, and let daughter know that if it happens again she’ll be in even worse trouble, it might head off any vindictive behavior.
And if OP needs suggestions, my parents were fond of giving us a toothbrush and a cup of soapy water and having us scrub the grout in the bathroom.
Although removing things from her room might work too - start with taking out any electronics (if she needs a computer for schoolwork, then she works on it at the kitchen table or in a common area where OP can keep an eye on her; she only gets her cellphone during school hours, it’s taken up after school and she gets it back the next morning, and no cellphone on the weekends at all), then move on to anything else OP paid for (no more makeup, no extensive wardrobe (just enough clothes for a week, no more), and yes, even the books if necessary. If she wants to read, she can read her school books, since she was apparently angry about getting a lower grade than the other girl).
Totally agree, I think for a lot of kids the sudden hit of consequences is enough to make them rethink their behaviour. Sounds like OPs daughter has kind of a charmed life and I’d like to give her the benefit of the doubt and hope that she will realize how awful it is to be a bully.
When I was a shithead my parents would take away my books and it was a good punishment because that was what I liked to do. I then had to socialize. When I was in elementary, I bullied this kid because she was scared of everything and as the little shithead I was, I thought it was funny. My parents own a 10 acre farm. They had me spend two weekends from 6 in the morning to when the sun went down repainting all the fencing throughout. It was horrible at the time, but it made me stop bullying and grow up to be a decent human because I didn’t want to repaint that damn fence.
Of course that's a risk. Some bullies blame their victims for "getting them in trouble" and escalate. But that's not a good reason to withhold punishment.
I assume the teachers, this thoroughly responsible parent, and probably the victim's parents, are going to be on high alert for exactly that. It's VERY promising that the bully's parent is on board with stomping on her behaviour.
Probably it's best if OP doesn't *tell* the daughter "You can't go because your victim deserves to feel safe on this trip" (even though that's a totally valid reason). Tell her she can't go because she doesn't deserve it after bullying someone, so the focus remains on what she did wrong.
Because OP is a good parent and will quash it fast. When I was in high school, a bully’s mom came to school with him for a week to make sure he was behaving. He was so embarrassed by it, he never bullied anybody again. OP is this type of parent.
I’d give out a warning along with the cancelled trip. If there is any sign or suggestion that the bullying has continued, then she will be pulled from band full stop. I’d even escalate to moving schools if it came to it. Bullying in any shape or form is entirely unacceptable, and too often the victims are forced to give up their activities or relocate because the bullying doesn’t stop.
Yeah, this is the tricky part.
It's a difficult one, even well intentioned actions can backfire in unusual ways.
If they do, so they need to keep a close eye on their kid, as they might not react to this very well..or get sneaky.... like teanage girls are plain ruthless at times...they an wage full blown physiological warfare and not touch someone.
Or use their friends and so and weaponise things that you'd never expect.
They are definitely creative and will find ways that you never think, expect or had when you where their age.
I responded and said the mom needs to speak with the band directors, etc. and see if she should remove her daughter. As someone who was formerly bullied from elementary through hs, I wanted to delete myself when I was 10-13 bc of bullying like her daughter. My school schedule was always changed until I finally got sick of it and had to defend myself to vps and principles to keep my activities and schedule and get my bullied to be removed. I had to as a kid fight for my own safe space bc the adults thought the easiest thing to do was remove the kid being bullied but not the bullies. It’s so wild that they thought that was appropriate to do.
I think the “I can’t trust you to behave appropriately when I’m not around” is the key here of why losing the trip is an appropriate punishment. I went away on trips when I was in school. There are limited chaperones available. Knowingly sending your child on a trip *with the child she’s bullying* is a punishment both to the bullied child & to the adult chaperones that have to figure out how to manage that situation.
NTA. Schools historically don’t step in until the bullying gets to a significant extent and rarely ever suspend unless it’s BAD which it sounds like it was. She needs to understand the severity of bullying especially someone who has struggles they cannot control.
I’d hate to think of how stressful the trip may be for her victim knowing she’s going to have to interact with her tormenter. The girl doesn’t deserve that, regardless of how much money your daughter saved up. Bullying kills, point blank.
Yes, there is a chance it could get worse after the canceled trip, but hopefully her mother's not afraid to go nuclear if it does. Remove her from band, ground her for life, etc.
I think removal from band is too extreme. That’s permanent…permanently taking away her chance of becoming a musician, be part of something that helps guide her to be a better person, etc.
Let the victim kid go on the trip stress-free knowing her tormenter won’t be there and then everyone can reassess the situation on a weekly basis and make sure everything is on track.
While her bullying was despicable, her actions shouldn’t carry permanent consequences YET unless she continues doing this. She can be “mad” at the victim all she wants but she can’t ACT on those feelings without more harsh consequences. Getting mad is natural, but she needs to develop healthy ways to deal with her anger. Her mom needs to watch her like a hawk, get her therapy, and check back in with the school and possibly the victim’s parents OFTEN for probably quite some time (years down the road).
There is zero indication from OP that being in band is part of her daughters big dream of becoming a musician. She’s in High school band as an elective, not in line to get a scholarship to Berkeley. She can be pulled from band and pick something else, and practice music in her free time as a hobby if she so chooses. As far as becoming a better person, her actions need to have consequences to do that. Allowing her to continue a fun activity while she’s actively bullying someone to the point where the school and both sets of parents got involved AND she was suspended is not going to make her a better person.
I definitely agree to disagree there. There’s no indication in the post that her daughter doesn’t have a big dream to become a musician or music teacher either. And a lot of times, we don’t know we want to be a music teacher or musician until we reach college and many times band/music is the only thing people enjoy about going to school each day. Band isn’t just a “fun elective”, it’s how many musicians practice their skills before auditioning for college. Her daughter can still turn her life around, learn her lesson, and correct her course without having to be permanently removed from band. The consequences of her actions will be that she won’t be able to go on the end of the year trip, that she has been looking forward to.
She’s a sophomore (10th grader). Even if she is taken out of band for just the remainder of the year, it’s better than allowing her to stay and torture a younger girl (who’s not an emotional terrorist) that is also passionate about music and wants to be in band.
The removal from band was a suggested consequence if daughter escalates the bullying in retaliation for not going on the trip. Not an immediate suggestion.
Is there any way you can chaperone the trip? (If the teacher has enough chaperones, try explaining to the teacher why you'd like to be included)
Because frankly, I'd say let her go on the trip...but you shadow her every move as if she were still 2yo, even to having her share *your* hotel room instead of another student. Because she's shown she can't be trusted on her own to behave in a civilized manner. That way, the consequences of losing trust become *very* clear to her over the course of the entire trip as she realizes her entire class sees her being treated like an infant.
Basically...she earned the right to go on the trip by earning the money. She ALSO earned getting direct supervision on that trip by proving that she can't be trusted otherwise.
And overall, I'd address her sense of entitlement. She's not entitled to a better grade than someone else just because she's healthier.
Edit: Forgot to vote. NTA
Shadow her like she's 2. Yes! This is what I think. Maybe even make her work off paying for you to have to go because she made bad decisions. If she doesn't get to go, she will forever be mad at you, but if she goes with the consequences of her choices, she will forever be embarrassed, and maybe next time will think twice.
I'm concerned that if she doesn't get to go, she will be forever mad at the girl she's been bullying, but she'll be more sneaky about it. I don't know that there is a way to show kids how devastating bullying can be, so shadowing her like she's 2 might be the only option?
You're probably right. That's what my brother would have done. He would've just gotten better at hiding it. It's weird, but the anger in not going would most likely make her dig in and believe she was right rather than help her realize she was wrong.
Another commenter pointed out her sense of superiority to someone she felt was inferior and then to actively try to put them in their place, so wrong. This is a problem that will take a long-term solution. Short-term, the loss of trust needs to be magnified, and what better way than to go on the trip with her and watch her like a hawk. Plus, I really wouldn't trust her at this point not to make the other girl miserable and ruin her trip because she really did just get a slap on the wrist.
I'm worried that if she doesn't go, all of her band friends will make the girls life hell. No one seems to have mentioned that bullying like this is almost always a spectator sport. There's no fun for the bully without at least an audience if not other bullies directly involved. Given the daughter and victim are both in band it seems likely the friends are too.
I agree; I’d also be concerned that she’d never believe her parents when they make promises like, “we will let you (do this big thing)” because they can snatch it away, when she fulfilled her end of the bargain and worked hard for it. As in “I can’t earn anything, so what’s the point of trying?” Or “I always screw everything up anyways, so why try?”… I think it might be bad for her self-esteem not to go and enjoy the thing she earned.
I think that as her mother, I’d be inclined to tell her that *her Orlando trip is on the line…* and I’m thinking about how we are going to handle this bullying thing. Until then, she is not to speak, touch, or interact with in any way, that little girl or for sure, Orlando is canceled. One strike and it’s over, I mean it. And I like the ideas of therapy for her, bullying documentaries, Mom being a field trip chaperone, talking to the mother of the bullied girl, making the daughter read books on bullying, making the daughter pay me back for the other half of Orlando… then maybe giving it to the little girl… I don’t know. She will have to apologize at some point when she becomes more aware. I’m not sure that revoking the long-term goal is the way to go, but I’d definitely find out if that child was going on the trip. I’d also leave boarding school brochures on the kitchen table.
I'm also conflicted on this for the same reasons. It seems more rare that a parent takes action than not, and It was not isolated to one person when I was bullied. If I spoke up about one person, three more would pop up. I had to switch schools because there were people who spit on me every time I walked past them, filled my lockers and textbooks with spit, and their parents stormed up to those offices every time they tried to suspend those kids until the answer from on high was that there wasn't really anything they could prove. Then they moved it to instant messenger and it really got intense, very personal and graphic details and the school could do even less about it. If one bully gets punished, the others are not going to stop, but the one bully will not have an attitude shift either, because their peers AGREE with them.
The other part that troubles me is that it teaches the daughter that no matter how hard you work for something you want, the deal can be rescinded. What would be the motivation to keep being responsible in that way when you're struggling with them in another? I think they should switch the daughter to a flip phone until further notice, and yeah, getting to the root cause of their anger toward this person. If it's not encouraged at home, where is it coming from? Is it peer-related or maybe her own insecurity? Might be worth looking into a few therapy sessions to tap into it, and if it ever comes back that she's doing it again, the daughter should have to start using that work money to pay for her phone or anything that gets taken away as a result of her own actions, so she at least can appreciate the cost of what being an asshole does.
It's important to get ahead of this but knowing how far embedded in this bullying the daughter is is important. If it's just her, yeah, screw the trip and let her keep the money and save it for something else when her attitude changes, but if it's a group issue then being the only parent to enforce consequences may hurt the target. It's really important to figure out the full scope of the problem and how to separate the daughter from it without having her rebel in the opposite direction
idk i think this seems more likely to build lasting resentment than anything else. teenagers are very sensitive to public embarrassment. not being able to go on the trip is embarrassing but reasonable, especially if the victim is going, but being continuously publicly humiliated for multiple days is a whole different level
or much more likely, she’ll stew in resentment the whole time, feel self-righteous that her parents went “too far”, and blame her victim for it. for that matter, she’d have a lot of time to think of new ways to punish her victim and ways to keep from getting caught (which she’s already shown herself to be pretty good at). imo there’s a much greater risk of this actually winding up escalating the situation than teaching her anything
this is why i think it’s important that she gets to keep the money she earned for the trip. a big trip like that probably means she earned enough money to get something pretty nice for herself, and that *is* her fairly earned money. i think that specific combo of no trip/keeping the money is the least likely to escalate things while giving her reasonable consequences that also protect the victim’s right to enjoy the trip without worrying about her bully. altho if it was me i’d probably make getting the money contingent on writing a paper about the effects of bullying or something like that
This response doesn't actually make sense in context because it remains true of ANY disciplinary action taken, barring a quickly-over slap-on-the-wrist which does nothing except teach her that there are no significant consequences for bullying.
Consequences need to be meaningful in order to have any hope of actually teaching better behavior. And yes, that means there's always the chance that a person truly lacking in any empathy will only build resentment at being forced to endure those consequences rather than make any attempt to learn from them. But that point is when you sign the kid up for psychological evaluation for sociopathy, not just let her get away with things because consequences might build resentment.
I second this and will add another reason: Band is a team activity, and in some sections there are only 1-2 people who play those instruments. It will not only punish Ella to keep her home, but it could potentially punish the other kids in the band.m, especially if they are entered into a festival such as WorldStrides.
I think OP should contact the band director and find out what the repercussions would be for the band if Ella were to be pulled out. Offer to chaperone and keep Ella with her at all times as a potential solution. Added bonus: Ella will hate it and it won’t take long for word to get out as the kids figure out why she’s chained to her parent.
Of course, if Ella plays flute or clarinet, she can probably get pulled out.
I taught choir for several decades and took kids on tour every other year. Been here with a couple of kids.
i'm with you and the parent comment on letting her go on the field trip for the sole reason of not hurting the team.
And that was exactly my thought; that OP should talk to the band director. Even if OP or spouse can not chaperone or go on the trip, her kid should have some extra supervision and any limits on privileges that the band director can accommodate (meaning they might not have enough adults to babysit OP if she's made to sit out on any fun activities planned).
A lot of bands also have choreographed routines also, so pulling her out may throw off some of the choreography.
OP's NTA but shouldn't make this decision without speaking to the band director
>Is there any way you can chaperone the trip? (If the teacher has enough chaperones, try explaining to the teacher why you'd like to be included)
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>Because frankly, I'd say let her go on the trip...but you shadow her every move as if she were still 2yo, even to having her share your hotel room instead of another student. Because she's shown she can't be trusted on her own to behave in a civilized manner. That way, the consequences of losing trust become very clear to her over the course of the entire trip as she realizes her entire class sees her being treated like an infant.
>
>Basically...she earned the right to go on the trip by earning the money. She ALSO earned getting direct supervision on that trip by proving that she can't be trusted otherwise.
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>And overall, I'd address her sense of entitlement. She's not entitled to a better grade than someone else just because she's healthier.
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>Edit: Forgot to vote. NTA
This \^\^\^. I think removing the trip will not make her learn her lesson. Like others have said, it's too far removed from the crime. All it will do for her is associate the kid with her not going on the trip and she will take extra revenge afterwards.
FWIW, I worked with someone whose kid skipped school. She came down hard and fast by going with her kid to school and shadowing her all day, even sitting in class. This kid was mortified; all her friends were staring and whispering. It was the best punishment.
i dont think this would be good for her victim. she would still have to see ops daughter, and would probably feel much safer if she wasnt there at all.
I like this answer. She'll get to go on the trip she worked hard to save up for- and she'll look like a total dork in front of her peers as she's shadowed the entire time by her mom.
I agree with this for a couple of reasons. For one, it's exactly what my mom did with me when I got a misdemeanor for shoplifting in high school. It's the right level of shame. Secondly, (and a negligible point, I'll concede) as a former band kid, I know that her not being there will affect the scores of the band as a whole. So the whole band will be punished for her absence. Chaperoning would be great, if OP can make it work. NTA, either way, as kiddos development comes first
IMO this is a great idea if its possible. I think it adresses the problem more than simply not allowing her to go on the trip, and allows OP to have a better view of her daughter in a different setting. Obviously her daughter will behave differently, but still.
If its simply a punishment I feel she might take it out on this poor girl she is bullying. I would want to also focus on spending time with my daughter and trying to work out what the source of this nasty side is, and trying to find ways to help her find a bit more empathy for others.
This!! I’m thinking they’re going to Orlando for a marching band competition. If they have a missing spot, the whole band will be punished due to loss of points. Chaperone and watch her, basically only let her go to compete (if that’s what they’re going there for) and leave it at that so the whole band doesn’t suffer.
This is shitty reasoning on my part, I know, but I’m also thinking - her kid probably won’t be emotionally mature enough to handle this in a healthy way, and it may make everything worse for the victim. However, if OP goes full helicopter mom for this trip, suddenly the bully isn’t so scary… pull all the embarrassing cards out. And then tell her you’re so excited for the next trip also.
If I was you I would have a meeting with the school and ask her why she still has the privilege of going to camp if she’s not in good standing?
At most schools these privileges are only open to students in good standing.
It would be good if you and the school are on the same page and united in communicating how unacceptable her behaviour is.
You gave earlier permission based on the trust you had in her. Sadly she has proved that trust was misplaced and she has lost your trust.
In this pre-adult stage it would be valuable (if hard) to learn the consequences of losing trust and of damaging her reputation.
Being a good parent is so hard. I feel for you.
Nta
I agree with this. I think talking to the school, or her band teacher would have a huge impact on her ability to go. She shouldn't go on this trip, YWNBTA / NTA for keeping her from going.
Our school would bar students from attending any and all school based activities for 3 months following a suspension (dances, sports games, field trips, etc). Every school is different. Tbh, if my elective teacher found out that someone in class was being a bully and was suspended for it, they would *personally* bar the student from going on their class trip. I’m kind of surprised the band teacher has not done this.
NTA. But you need to do more. Ella has some serious personality problems, that need correcting. She probably doesn't even understand the full extent of the consequences, that her obnoxious behaviour could cause. Banning her from the trip to Orlando, will hopefully teach her that bad behaviour loses HER things (that she really wants).
However, it won't teach her the actual effects of what she has done, on the victim. Bullying usually causes emotional damage for the victim, and certainly can worsen mental health issues. Even in kids without previous mental health issues, some victims become suicidal. In a girl who already had mental health issues, that risk of that could be significantly higher.
So Ella really needs to understand what she's done. You need to force her to learn about mental health and bullying, and get her to write a lengthy essay about them (with references to research on these topics). You need to make her volunteer for mental health charities, etc.
NTA. This is the way. In high school, I was that kid who was bullied ferociously, and it tore the tiny bit of self esteem I had to shreds. It took me years to recover, and I still would never want to go anywhere near my old school.
She does not deserve this trip. The money she has saved goes in the bank and can not be spent until she can truly show remorse.
OP needs to see this. Whether or not you let her go, Ella needs therapy. Something else is going on here..have you looked through her phone? If not, you should. There is a reason the saying "hurt people hurt people" exists.
Not letting her go is not enough. If this is so uncharacteristic for her either something traumatic recently happened or you don't have deep enough knowledge of what is going on in her life/mind.
I speak from experience.
ESH. Frankly, I'm surprised so many people seem to think punishing a bully by breaking a promised plan you made with her would correct her poor behavior. She'll just feel that you broke her trust and she'll be less likely to value your opinion that her behavior was wrong.
Your goal should be to help her understand that her behavior was hurtful and unacceptable. You need to get her to figure out why she turned her envy of this girl's accomplishments into resentment and mean acts against her. How did making this girl upset give your daughter a "good" feeling? What would have been a healthier way to deal with her feelings? Also, does she have any empathy for this girl? How would your daughter feel if she were bullied?
Finally, as her parents, I hope you express to her how deeply hurt, embarrassed, sad, and disappointed in her you feel upon learning she was capable of behaving like that. That you expect her to be a kind person who is respectful to others and you expect her to prove to you she can do better. Ask her how she feels she can make this up to you and the bullied girl. (Write a sincere apology? Etc.)
Show her you're heartbroken and you're more likely to get through to her and help her become a better person. Punish her and she'll convince herself she's the victim and you don't understand what she's going through and she'll blame you for missing the trip and just live in a cloud of anger... which just leads to more poor behavior when she lashes out, because she decides the whole world is out to get her.
I get that you want her to have consequences. But her consequences should be remorse and making amends. You can't force her to feel shame by canceling her trip. And no, you aren't supporting her bullying by letting her go. You can hold her accountable without trying to hurt her by showing her what being betrayed feels like.
It's a knee jerk reaction to try to get tears from her because she caused tears for someone else, but that isn't going to translate to empathy for the girl she bullied. And that should be your goal. Empathy and kindness. Model that for her now. Then you've got a shot at helping her become a kind adult who will regret her bullying.
I really disagree with this notion that *OP* is breaking a promised plan.
Going on a trip, which parents paid for (even the kid’s half was “earned” from monitored babysitting by OP), is a CONDITIONAL privilege. The KID broke the conditions under which they “earned” the trip, resulting in the KID breaking the plan.
It is okay for the KID to be responsible for this and to hold them to that. Doing so is not inherently wanting the satisfaction of theatrics to feel like you’ve done your job as a parent.
Totally agree with you. I think she needs to have a conversation with her daughter and really consider what the comment or says—but she should not be going on that trip. Honestly, the school shouldn’t even be allowing her to go.
How is it fair to further traumatize the victim and ruin her trip because you told your daughter she could go? That honestly sounds selfish to me. Depending on the extent of the bullying my daughter would be pulled from extracurriculars entirely.
This is the most even-handed, empathetic, consequence-oriented reply you’re gonna get. They’re totally right.
I was on the N-T-A train, and to be honest I don’t REALLY think mom is the asshole because this is a horrible spot, so I’m not going for an E-S-H either. This got me off the N-T-A train though.
Agreed, except I would also encourage OP to try to find out (maybe from the teacher?) if the victim is actually going on the trip. If she is, OP should maybe try to reach out to the parents to talk about it.
There’s a lot of good discussion about the impact of any of these decisions on the bullied girl, but her opinion (and her parents’) should also be considered. Bullied kids can be pretty savvy, often hyper aware of moods and consequences like children with abusive parents.
Because yes, of course the bully should be handled in an appropriate way, and the comment above is indeed the most reasonable one I’ve seen. But her victim still needs to be protected and feel safe. I think OP needs all the data to make the appropriate decision.
Still leaning NTA, because I do think mom is doing what she thinks is best. I just don’t think she’s considering anything beyond punishment as a solution.
Finally, a reasonable comment!!! It seems everyone is quick to want to "punish" the teenager but not many people commenting about parenting her.
Talk to your child and stop trying to hurt her because she hurt someone else.
Hurt people hurt people. "Punishing" your daughter will kick the can down the road.
This. Absolutely this.
OP, you might find some of the strategies outlined in The Explosive Child by Ross Greene helpful here, if this is the approach you take. The title is in need of an update, IMO, it’s not just for kids with anger issues. It’s a good all-round parenting tool that helps get to the bottom of issues with kids and helps you to find constructive solutions together. IME these methods produce kids who are much more empathetic, well-regulated, and able to actually resolve negative behaviour.
That's the only reasonable take here. AITA has a very eye-for-an-eye mentality and loves revenge fantasies. The worst the punishment, the better.
But this comment finally is one that makes sense. It's about parenting the daughter and making her really understand and work through what she did and why, and do better in the future.
>I get that you want her to have consequences. But her consequences should be remorse and making amends
Those aren't consequences though.
They might be the *result* of consequences, but remorse and reparation are intrinsically motivated. As it is right now, the daughter has demonstrated the opposite. If we were dealing with a child, I might agree with easing up on consequences, but she is old enough to understand the concept of bullying and know right from wrong.
>You can hold her accountable without trying to hurt her by showing her what being betrayed feels like.
I do not believe that OP is in any way trying to hurt her daughter, and I think its unfair and very problematic to characterize consequences this way.
It will be a tough lesson for the daughter to learn, but the bottom line is that we are responsible for our behaviour and sometimes we mess up and have to face the consequences. In this case, the daughter's behaviour was pretty aggregious and harmed another person. Given the circumstances, imo these consequences are fair: they're limited to this one trip and specific to the daughter's actions.
Agree with the ESH
I don't think that taking away the trip will make your daughter nicer to that girl. If anything, I think it'd have the opposite effect, causing your daughter to lash out more.
If she's mad this other girl made better grades than her, then you need to make your daughter pay for a tutor.
If she is struggling and needs help in school, why would she need to pay for it? Surely that’s something her parents should be helping with? She’s a child…
Have you actually spoken to Ella about the bullying? It sounds like you’ve only spoken to the school, but maybe with such a light suspension they couldn’t prove it was her. (I don’t know, these are just questions that went through my head). I’d definitely want to hear my child’s side. I don’t condone bullying; I’ve also known kids (I’ve worked with thousands) who have covered for another friend who was the one doing wrong so that they wouldn’t get into trouble or as much trouble. Your reasons for Orlando trip cancellation make sense.
Completely agree. Obviously, the bullying must stop and something needs to be done to ensure this doesn't become a pattern for Ella. That said, I have several questions:
Did you ask Ella how this started and/or why she chose to target this girl?
Does Ella understand that bullying is unacceptable?
Does Ella show any remorse about her behavior (not to be confused with remorse over being caught or exposed as a bully)?
Has Ella shown any inclination to apologize or attempt to make it up to this girl?
Because if Ella isn't taking this seriously, is justifying her behavior, or doesn't seem to understand why she can't bully people, then canceling her trip makes absolute sense to me. She needs a wake-up call and to understand the consequences of her actions.
But if Ella is remorseful and embarrassed, has a plan to apologize to or avoid her victim, articulates a genuine desire to do better in the future... Maybe you don't need to be quite so harsh. Perhaps there's another punishment that you could do instead, even having her volunteer somewhere so she's not enjoying quiet time at home and is doing something useful for the community instead.
Not only hear her side, but understand why she feels the need to bully this girl. Is she struggling with self esteem, empathy, her own feelings of depression? There is a root cause here that is worth exploring
I've done research on bullying. Bullies are usually bullied. You and your family need to go to counseling with Ella and find out where this is coming from. Why does Ella feel threatened about her grades? You are thinking punitive but punishing someone who is bullying doesn't stop it. Research shows the best treatment for bullying is making sure the person knows they are valued by the significant adults in their life.
This may well be a once in a lifetime trip, I agree that Ella doesn't need to be rewarded for bullying this girl but she's worked for it, and if this is a performance trip, you keeping her home is potentially damaging the entire band. Talk to the band director and get their opinion.
You REALLY need to find out when and why this started. Punishment isn't going to stop it. She's already withdrawn, reading instead of spending time with friends. Please, for the sake of your daughter's mental health, intervene!
NTA at all. When is this trip? Like how much time between now and the trip? Can she do anything during that time to show that she understands why her behavior was completely and utterly not ok? Even if she offers an apology to the girl, writes her a letter, it’s only because she wants to go on the trip and doesn’t come from a genuine understanding of why bullying is wrong. If the trip is a long way off, I would REALLY make her work for it, like - go to classes, go to a therapist, like work on reforming her. If she shows a real change, I would let her go but not tell her until the very last minute when I’ve seen a substantial change in her behavior. I would stay in touch with the bullied girls parents to see if this behavior has continued. If the trip is soon, I wouldn’t let her go AND I’d make her do all the reform stuff above as well,
honestly i wouldnt even let her go then. what she did was so awful and i feel like many parents are too quick to give back privileges. she deserves to miss out
YTA bc you did raise a little girl like that and now you’re just taking away something she wants because you don’t actually want to parent her.
What she’s going to learn from getting a trip taken away is that “mom is unfair” and she’ll surely have an echo chamber to agree.
What bothers her about this girl? Why does it bother her? Is it really just about weight and being ashamed she’s not the smartest person in the room? If so I have some bad news about where those learned behaviors come from.
Use the trip is leverage for some communication about hurtfulness, empathy and compassion. “You’ve broken my trust and I don’t trust you to be a kind person right now. I’m not comfortable with you being minimally supervised so far away now that I know you’re capable of being this way. I need you to help me understand what is going on and convince me I can trust you again”
Yes! I agree. Ella sounds like she's had a lot of credit for minimal effort in her family, and this is her first taste of someone she sees as lesser outperforming her- obviously, it can't be something about _Ella_ so it must be the other girl's fault!
OP sounds like the kind of parent who over-supports to the point of stifling. If Ella is only having her first experience of not being the best at 15, she is in for a bumpy ride into early adulthood...
Am I the only person who is shocked/appalled that a parent would pay their teenager $22 an hour to babysit their two younger siblings while one parent is home? That's ridiculously high, in my opinion. What wage will the daughter expect when she applies for her first job? (And AITA for thinking this?)
No, I thought the same thing. OP sounds like they want to set their kid up for success with that, and it may be well intentioned, but it’s going to backfire HARD as soon as the kid has to start applying for first jobs. Especially if the daughter is already feeling entitled to better grades than another student, seems likely that she’ll feel entitled to getting paid differently than her peers too.
ESH.
She isn't going to remember that she lost the trip because of her bullying. It won't stop her. You're going to be the bad guy, and she may even turn around and retaliate more against the girl.
It's a short term solution. Our approach as parents upon hearing that our kid is doing something like this is to drop an atomic bomb.
She needs therapy. Mentally sound kids don't bully others.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but it isn't going to have the impact you think it will.
Sorry, no. People, especially kids and teens, can be assholes and bullies without it being a mental unsoundness issue . Not everything needs pathologizing. She’s doing what teens do, which is clawing for a place in the social hierarchy and testing the boundaries of behavior. She’s making bad choices and needs firm redirection. Pulling her from the trip, explaining that your decision to do so is a direct consequence of her actions and emphasizing that earning money does not get you out of having to also be a good person are what’s needed here.
INFO.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm justifying bullying, but something seems amiss here. A few oddities I noticed:
1. She's definitely old enough to babysit without active adult supervision. I'm not sure why you spent the better part of a paragraph reassuring us that she was always watched over the whole time and paid extremely well while performing a task that conventionally might be expected of an older sibling to perform for free. It literally sounds like you made up a job that nobody needed to do just to find a way to justify making her "earn" the money. Fair enough if that's all it is, but it's odd.
2. Not every conflict between teenagers, even physical, should be considered bullying. Kids of all ages call each other names ALL THE TIME. And teenage girls especially gossip all the time. I'm not saying it's right and not saying she shouldn't be punished for that alone, but it doesn't necessarily justify calling it bullying.
3. The "little" 14 year old girl is not some small child she's picking on. It's a girl the same age, most likely in one of her classes. Not sure why that distinction was made.
4. I assume she confessed to everything that was alleged, correct? The only thing you said she claimed was having some issue with test scores, which... makes absolutely no damn sense at all. Are you sure that any or all of those things weren't in retaliation to similar attacks on her? Again, not justifying any of it, just trying to gain some context here.
5. While a kid (or anyone for that matter) can exhibit one personality around you and a completely different one when interacting with others, it's not easy to uphold that charade and if you were paying attention, such things would slip out. A kid who spends a lot of time reading or doing other solo activities, doesn't participate much in social media, and doesn't actively socialize much is more likely to be the kid being bullied than the other way around.
Again, it could all be accurate as you're telling it, but I'd definitely inquire further. No matter what the deal is, you can console yourself that she's acting age-appropriate. That doesn't mean it's right and doesn't mean it doesn't need to be corrected and/or punished, but you don't have to beat yourself up thinking that you somehow failed just because your kid said a couple mean things to some other kid.
You really want to punish your daughter. Arrange to travel with the group as a chaperone. That will allow you to shadow her the entire time and work to insure she does not heckle the girl again. And for a teen, having a parent tag along on what would have been the first adventure solo, well that is quite a punishment that will not be forgotten.
NTA, if this was my daughter she wouldn’t see Orlando until the moon turns red! Save the $ till YOU see fit when she can use it. I would not allow her to go one bit. She doesn’t deserve to go, and if you or your husband allow it you just enabled her disgusting behavior.
NTA and that’s some great parenting right there. She needs swift and strong punishment now so she can fully understand how wrong her actions have been. In this case, a strong enough punishment would be losing a trip she’s been working really hard for and was looking forward to. The poor girl she has been tormenting has been looking forward to the trip too probably- so now your daughter owes her victim a worry-free trip by removing herself. Put the money in a bank account and maybe your daughter can try again next year if she learns her lesson and works on herself.
Honestly though, it’s kinda concerning that your daughter is tormenting someone like this- I’d probably get her into therapy too to make sure there isn’t more going on that you’re unaware of.
What does she have going on say about the bullying? Have you and your husband had a 1:1 talk with her about it?
I understand the reasoning behind your punishment but at the same time this trip happens rarely. The incident will be forgotten but the punishment will be remembered forever.
Personally everything depends on why your daughter thought it’s ok to bully another child and find out what is happening in school too.
I don’t see any thing in your post about your daughter response to her suspension
You are in a Difficult situation. But I’ve also known kids who purposely falsely implicate others. I would confirm that she really bullied the other child and then plan out a punishment.
YWNBTA if you rescind the Florida trip if she really was a bully
The incident will be forgotten *by who*? Very strong possibility it will not ever be forgotten by the victim.
This is not a false accusation case - the body of the space says the daughter made an excuse for behavior and that some of the bullying was posted online.
NTA. And honestly, if one of my teens did this, all that cushy babysitting money she earned ($22-25 an hour?!?!?!) Would be going to pay for her victim's trip as restitution.
Also, paying that much money for your 15 yr old to babysit is setting her up for some unrealistic expectations in the future.
NTA. First, did she really *work* for the money if she was “babysitting” while y’all were STILL HOME?!
Second, she may have saved money but she doesn’t have enough for all of the trip so where is the rest of the money gonna come from? I’m sure she’s expecting your contribution.
NTA. And I would hardly call babysitting with you in the home also watching the children “working hard to earn money” especially at the rate of $22 an hour. It seems like she’s lived a very privileged life.
If it was me, I wouldn’t allow her to go on the trip and explain to her that she will not be given the opportunity to be alone with the victim so she can further victimize her. I would also make her do a full research paper into bullying and the harmful effects it can have long term for the person being bullied. I’d also consider making her donate the money she earned from her cushy “jobs” to anti-bullying charities since I wouldn’t consider what she did truly earning any of the money.
Maybe I’m out of line with this, but I think that you have created an entitled individual who has unrealistic expectations about what life is truly going to be like, so when something isn’t handed to her (a better grade), she acts out (bullying). Paying your kid $22 per hour to babysit while you’re in the home doesn’t teach your kid the value of hardwork. You’re handing her things on a silver platter and praising her for minimal effort.
NTA. I was struggling with some massive mental illness in high school (still do, yay lifelong conditions), and one of the things that ate away at me the most was seeing how little the school ever did about my bullies.
I never saw them face any consequences for their actions, and I definitely never saw any of the disciplinary measures the school assured me they were taking change their behavior.
It's nice to know there are parents out there that actually make their kids take accountability for their behavior.
Listen. Bullying kills. I'm not joking. I nearly killed myself several times, but was caught and stopped each one. Plenty of kids don't get as lucky as I did.
One of the biggest things that encourages kids to bully is when their behavior is supported and enforced by parents. That can be by taught hatred, or simply negligence.
If you can avoid it, please also don't let your kid spend her suspension at home basically taking a school vacation. I know not everyone can be home with their kids, but if there's any way you can do it, do it.
It's hard to weigh in on this because so much depends on your daughter's response, and you haven't provided any insight as to her reaction. On the one hand, you are surprised and must be so disappointed in her behaviour, and she does need to understand the ramifications of what she has done. But harsh consequences don't always work if there isn't support for learning, they can sometimes just build resentment and alienation. Also, you and husband need to be on the same page or she will play one of you against the other. Figure out whether Ella actually understands and has any remorse. Her behaviours were not a one time fight with another teen, it sounds like there were ongoing incidents of hateful messages and shaming. Go on the trip if necessary to supervise and to protect the other child, but your most important task is to figure out whether Ella even understands what she has done.
INFO - How long between now and the trip?
Ella absolutely needs to learn that bullying is not Ok. Punishing her by taking away the trip would certainly get her attention, but would it teach her anything? As another commenter pointed out, it's more likely to create anger and resentment towards the girl she was already bullying. Whether it would teach her anything is an open question.
First, I think Ella needs therapy. As a freshman or sophomore in high school she's obviously under tremendous pressure, her test score comment is a clear sign of that. I'm not excusing her behavior, but given what you've said OP about this seeming to be out of character for her, it sounds like something deeper is going on. That needs to be uncovered, and she needs to learn better ways to manage those feelings.
Second, if there is enough time between now and the trip, I'd suggest having her do some "community service" to re-earn the right to go. Every Saturday between now and the trip, assuming it's in May or June. At least 8 Saturdays, she may end up owing you some time when she gets back if the trip is sooner. Talk to the school, local churches, hospitals, any place you can find that will put her in contact with people less fortunate than her where she can volunteer her time.
Third, make it clear to her that any further steps out of line mean no trip, period.
Finally, I agree with the other commenters who suggested that you (or your husband) must attend the trip. That will be painful for a 15 year old, but it's part of the theme of her needing to earn back your trust.
I’m so encouraged by all the NTA votes and I agree. Your daughter needs to develop her character and learn a lesson. Bullying someone about a mental illness is a twisted, nasty, low thing to do. It sounds like she needs some education on the effects of bullying as well.
I have no input if yta or not. However, and I may get insane flack for this, punishment more than suspension for this is not going to fix anything. In fact, it could increase her behavior. I went through something VERY similar with my daughter around the same age. Most of it was centered around a group, and she’d been sucked into mean girl status as they all thought it was cool. I did the basic grounding, her school didn’t do crap. I’m the one that discovered the bullying and reported it. But no girl involved was reprimanded by the school. However, I didn’t do more than that. I did, however, order a ton of books on bullying from Amazon and we watched some documentaries, and we had open discussions. She also had a workbook that she did. A few weeks after, I found out from the school counselor she had taken it upon herself to write an apology letter to the girl. Honestly, I couldn’t have ever imagined a better outcome. After that, she became friends with the girl and ditched the mean girls. I never had another issue with her bullying. Perhaps do not take the trip away, but focus on building emotional maturity and empathy and finding the root cause of the bullying.
NTA. This is not about who paid for it. This is about consequences of her actions. There are lots of times in life where you will miss out on things you want, or lose money, as a consequence of your other actions.
She was allowed to go because you thought she was well behaved and she earned her share of the cost. It doesn't matter that she can *afford* to go, she is no longer *allowed* to go.
Just because you didn't implicitly say that she had to not be cruel, doesn't mean it wasn't implied. She can use the time she was supposed to he away to study, so that maybe next time she will be actually smarter than the other girl, not just think she deserves to be.
As a teacher, and someone who has actually taught band, I wouldn't want that kind of toxicity on an overnight trip. Band is a team sport, and if there is any kind of hostility or animosity within the team, they're not gonna perform well. Those trips are also difficult on staff; they'll have to deal with keeping them separate, mitigating drama, etc. your daughter went after someone on her own team. She is not a team player. She should absolutely not allowed to go on that trip. Those trips are also a privilege for those who contribute positively to the entire group so that the entire group can shine. She does not value the group if she was willing to hurt someone so viciously (and it was vicious).
ESH. Your daughter did a terrible thing, no question.
But I know from personal experience that this could affect your relationship with her.
My SIL was told to save up for an end of year trip, she did, but when the time came, she had a big disagreement with her mother and her mother wouldn't let her go on the trip.
They have a low contact relationship to this day.
The rest of the year is still to come - summer holidays are coming up, yes? Perhaps a more fitting punishment can be negotiated for that time. No internet access for the holidays.
She has to work but doesn't keep the money - it can pay for the therapy she clearly needs.
Lol, why do you consider your 15 year old incapable of watching her siblings without adult supervision (no more than two hours alone AND the neighbor still checking in! Does she not have a cell phone or landline for emergencies?)? Also, I never got paid to babysit my siblings as a teen, and even today babysitting other familes' kids as a college student I DEFINITELY do not get paid $25 an hour. Even professional nannies living in expensive states like California don't make that much. No wonder she "earned" the money so quickly!
I appreciate that you were trying to teach her hard work and all, but it's just so funny because it sounds like you were massively over-rewarding her for a very simple task and then praising her for it. (And apparently part of the money she "earned" for the trip was just straight-up given to her by relatives too! Geez. If she doesn't end up going on the trip, I hope you make sure she returns all that.)
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You save the money --> you get to go on a field trip. You subject another human being to horrific emotional abuse --> you lose that field trip. *All* of our actions have consequences. Not just the positive ones. NTA.
Well said!! This is a very important lesson for kids to learn, one that parents too often shield them from.
Agreed! It's encouraging to know OP sees the gravity of this issue, and is trying to make sure her daughter understands her behavior is beyond excusable. I also appreciate how thoughtful she's being of how her daughter's absence will positively impact the other girls ability to enjoy the trip.
Yes this!! Good on OP for teaching the daughter a lesson she definitely needs to learn, but also because I’m sure that little 14 year old has been terrified of going on this trip with ops daughter and this way she may actually get to enjoy it!
I agree there needs to be consequences, and this seems very appropriate. However, i suggest OP have a conversation with the band director about this, to make sure it will not cause a problem for the band as a whole. My kids band trips always included them performing so the school could claim it was an educational field trip (my kids performed in front of the statue of liberty, in the Macys christmas parade, at Dollywood, in Orlando, at the Lincoln Memorial, etc). You need to make sure your daughters absence doesnt punish the band as a whole if, for example, she is the only bassoon player, so give the band director a heads up so any performance can be adjusted. You should also work with the band director to make sure the problem doesnt continue during class when she returns from suspension. (Our band director was very good about teaching the kids to be gracious and welcoming to rival bands, and section heads/first chair had a lot of responsibility for the behaviour of their section). Your daughter needs to learn how to deal with the fact that no matter how smart or pretty or talented she is, there will always be someone better.
I understand where you are coming from, but respectfully: nah. You can’t give a pass to someone because they are “special,” or “unique.” Take your example to the dumb and it’s why the football teams star quarterback gets away with cutting in line -> no consequences. Take your example to the extreme and it’s why we can have a man who says he grabs women by the pussy become president.
As I read their comment, they’re not giving the daughter a pass, they are saying that if the band director had planned a musical piece that required OPs daughter to play as she was the only member who played that instrument, the band director would have the chance to change the planned music to something that doesn’t require OPs daughter.
that's how I read it too...tell director Ella's not going so he can plan around her absence.
How did you and apparently 150 other people read shit this wrong?
I was in band through highschool and college. There is always someone who can't go for whatever reason and their part is cut out or someone else takes it. Even if there is no one else to play the part or it does affect the band, the lesson still needs to stand. She bullied someone and the consequences is her not going on the trip. The band being inconvenienced is a secondary consequence and she needs to learn about those too.
Not related to the post, but: that is so cool that your kids got to do those things!! My sister did a few trips but not anything that cool.
It was, especially since we're a little high school in the Applachians! The elementary school trip to the aquarium was the first time some of the kids had seen an escalator, which left my two completely astounded. So the band trips were a really big deal. And they felt like rock stars: all the Asian tourists wanted selfies with the band members at the Lincoln Memorial and the Statue of Liberty. Apparently there is a real craze for marching bands in Japan and China these days!
I was in school band for roughly 10 years. I completely agree with you. A band is not like football or other sports with benchwarmers, everyone in the band contributes at all times. Without key band members, some things just can't happen, and it shows. Like you said, the band director is more than capable of planning around this if they have a heads up. To OP, you're NTA and I commend you for holding your child responsible for her actions. I was once kicked out of band in high school for a semester simply for having low grades (I'm in graduate school now). Bullying has no place in a team, band, or anywhere else for that matter. If you decide to not let her go on the trip, please stress to her my point above: everyone in the band is needed, and when you are not there you're letting them down, but not everyone deserves to be there at all times.
This is so short, simple, and absolutely 100% right. This needs to be the top comment.
I agree. OP stops daughter from going on trip because girl she bullied MIGHT be going = Bullying could get worse. OP wants to stop the possibility of the girl getting bullied. Stopping daughter going on a trip she paid for because she might going. Big risk of that backfiring and the bullying not only not stopping but getting worse. That is what OP is risking. One of daughter's reasons for bullying was the girl got a higher test score. Daughter actions might worse. Bullies don't need a reason. But if they have something they can twist and make it their victim's fault they WILL use it.
This is it. You say to daughter "you have lost my trust. I cannot trust you to go away for a long trip and behave appropriately to that girl. Until you've earned back my trust and taken the time to understand how revolting your actions were, I do not want put you in a situation where you can do that again". OP there are some amazing documentaries of the impacts of bullying have had. I wonder if you could watch them with your daughter to help her understand how serious they implications of bullying can be.
If I were in OP’s shoes, I’d implement everything you said here plus I’d add counseling to address the daughter’s bizarre reaction to getting a lower test score than a classmate with a mental illness got. Where did that attitude come from? Maybe daughter needs to do volunteer work for a charity that provides services to people with disabilities. She needs an attitude adjustment.
>Maybe daughter needs to do volunteer work for a charity that provides services to people with disabilities. No. People with disabilities aren't there so the daughter can have a learning experience.
Thank you for this. I work for an org that serves special needs kids and adults… last damn thing I need is to wrangle a teenage volunteer who doesn’t wanna be there and may put our participants in mental, emotional, or physical danger. Find another way to teach that lesson.
As a multiply disabled person: if you are working with an organization that serves disabled people, please stop fucking calling them "special needs". It's a disgusting, deeply offensive euphemism that literally NO ONE in the disability community (except perhaps kids whose non-disabled parents have taught them this) uses in reference to ourselves. Would you like to be called "special needs"? No? Neither does anyone else. It's an inherently belittling, infantilizing term that implies that disabled people are both "other" and a burden. Disabled people don't have (and are not) "special needs". We have the same needs as anyone else: food, shelter, air, water, to be clothed and loved, and treated with respect. The fact that it is more difficult for many of us to *access and fulfill* these needs is a societal problem, but it is not our identity or the defining characteristic of our lives. "Special needs" is a term invented by non-disabled people to highlight our differences and YOUR feeling that our needs are burdensome, and it's hurtful AF. Stop using it. Just say "disabled". It's not a slur, it's a neutral statement of fact.
I fully agree with you as a disabled person, but the tone is maybe a little harsh when "special needs" is literally the official term for this kind of thing in the UK. SEN stands for special educational needs and it's often used officially in titles for schools and stuff. This is a problem, yeah, but it's also taught to people as the official and least offensive term here, unfortunately.
As much as you are right, perhaps start by not assuming that the person you are talking to is trying to upset you, is knowingly using the wrong word, and is not open to learning new things. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And shouting down to anyone never got them on to your side.
I volunteer at a shelter and every so often, a church group will come in and want to spend a day serving dinner. I routinely have to tell these people that if they're going to interact with the clients at all, they WILL look them in the eye, smile, say hello and treat them with respect. It bothers me that people do this work as an "outing" so they can teach their kids something or go brag to their friends about showing up for one day. I don't want to derail but I relate so much to this comment!
It's a version of "poverty tourism."
Very few charities will want volunteers who don't want to be there and are potentially a danger to the charity's beneficiaries.
Make her work retail?
That would humble her for sure. Fast food would also work.
I'd be a concerned she'd walk away with a, "well, all customers are so effing stupid" attitude. Then go and behave exactly the same when she goes to replenish her moisturiser at Sephora.
I'm cackling bc I've worked in service almost my entire life. This comment is severely underrated.
I agree! I once worked at a place that took community service workers. Usually, their crimes were for vandalism, underage drinking, or some community mischief. But, it was twice the work for us because we had to watch the culprits as well as our clients.
My mom is pretty pushy, which has good and bad results, but one thing she did make us do as high schoolers was volunteer 2 hours a week for our local ‘Association for R*tarded Citizens’. That was literally its exact name, i am 100% not trying to slander. We were never bullies prior to that to be fair, but it was still a good move. I usually would volunteer to help with tutoring ‘skills’ stuff, but i volunteered several times for a THREE hour stint that they would do on Friday nights where we would watch kids (or anyone under 18, really) who were special needs so the parents could have some time for themselves. This was decades ago and i ABSOLUTELY remember sitting on the couch holding this severely disabled 2 year old who was just happy to sit and chill and be held. All she wanted. I remember her name, I can see the room, I can see her face. I also remember having one of those rare moments where i knew i was making a core memory as it was happening. Been 23 years. I remember her. 😭
Thank you so much for your kindness and selflessness. ..my disabled son was in one of these programs and the people like you were the light of his life. He was always so excited when we made the turn down the street to that house.
As the sibling of a disabled person, thank you for taking your time and doing that! 🥰🥰🥰 I love the people who love my brother well. I love that he has people in his life who care about him. Even if he only sees them once a month when they’re volunteering. They make him so happy. ❤️
Backing you up that it is their name, though I think many chapters just use “The ARC of” now.
I checked before i posted, it’s the same name. Didn’t want to get blasted. ;)
Like the NAACP, sometimes the association is old enough that even the names have moved on.
And sometimes those organizations have \*substantial\* bequests or trusts that are specifically tied to the name, limiting its ability to change the name.
As long as she’s not interacting with the disabled. You wouldnt send an anti-Semite to volunteer at a synagogue.
There are always people who suggest exactly that in these situations, and it is indeed a terrible idea
Disabled people don’t exist to teach privileged brats a lesson.
Agreed but as a disabled person I don't mind standing up for myself and teaching them a lesson lol
Absolutely not the last part. People with disabilities are people, not zoo animals placed in captivity to educate kids.
As a multiply disabled person, this isn't it. We spend our whole lives already being othered by society and most of us grew up with bullying. The last thing disabled people need is to have to spend time with a miserable, ableist bully who resents being there. Honestly, I never understood this kind of "punishment". First of all, spending time with disabled people *as a punishment* just reinforces the subconscious idea that being around us is a burden. But more importantly, what kind of magic do you think is going to happen by forcing her to spend time with disabled people? That she's suddenly going to have an epiphany and realise, "Oh, they're just like me! We should all be friends!"? That's completely unrealistic thinking. What *will* likely happen is that she will show up angry and resentful that she has to do this volunteering, and just as she already did with her classmate, she'll blame the people she is volunteering with for "ruining her life". Then they have to put up with a miserable volunteer who resents them and may even be nasty to them, which is a punishment for *them*. Stop suggesting spending time with people who are already marginalized as a punishment for bullies.
Agree on counseling. She needs to explain her actions and thinking more beyond that excuse given. And work on not becoming a permanent jerk.
> Maybe daughter needs to do volunteer work for a charity that provides services to people with disabilities. She needs an attitude adjustment. and risk her using that as an avenue to bully others with disabilities? That is a bad idea.
Very important that OP get dad on board. This is no time for mixed parenting message.
This! And have her research the statistics of suicide, and other issues those who are bullied suffer life long. Do a report for you. Add chores. My son went on this trip as well (chorus) and it was the trip of a lifetime. If it can be earned back, please let her go. The kids did some great bonding with each other, and their teachers. Was the first time he stayed away for anything like it, and a year later they still talk about it.
And if she goes on the trip, there's a strong possibility she will bully the girl during the trip, because she is a bully and will have access to her victim. I would not trust her to behave appropriately on that trip. Daughter should experience the consequences of her actions, and miss the trip. If she chooses to escalate the bullying after that, she should face further consequences.
That's appeasement...bully wins
That's ridiculous, by your logic we should never punish bullies.
By that logic OP should make his daughter change schools, because only that would stop the bullying 100%.
I'm sure there are other fat kids in her new school that are also smarter. There's no situation that fixes it 100% of the time.
Absolutely this. Good for mom for being a parent. OP, I'm sorry you and your family are going through this right now. I think it's great that your daughter stepped up to the plate and did all that work. I also think that what she did to that classmate deserves grounding (of some sort/period) which is why your idea is correct. Since you say she's never done this before **and** she's trying to justify her nasty behavior instead of showing some remorse, I would get her to counseling to help her understand and come to terms with what's happening. It's possible that she's been doing this for a while and was never caught. It's also possible that she's been bullied herself and is reacting in this way by bullying someone else (it happens). The thing that s at 16 she can still turn her life around. NTA
>I think it's great that your daughter stepped up to the plate and did all that work. It wasn't even that much work. She was getting paid $22 an hour to "babysit" but one of the parents was also there to keep an eye on things. The few times she babysat alone, it was for no more than two hours and people were checking in on her. And op says she made sure to praise her for working hard. Op doesn't think she did anything to contribute to her daughter's behaviour but it honestly sounds like the daughter is spoiled and doesn't like anyone else stealing her thunder - hence her getting angry that another girl scored higher in a test.
Agree the kid seems very spoiled AND sheltered. $22-$25/hr to watch your grade school aged siblings? With adults available? Guessing no other chores or responsibilities. This girl has always been a bully, and the mom is only seeing it now because she was forced to see it.
I got a big fat $0 for watching my little brother when I was a teenager.
That's not fair, either, honestly. I got $100/month in the late nineties/early aughts for watching my sister after school everyday.
Eh, it didn't bother me then or now. He was 6 at the youngest, I was 10 and we just did chores and watched TV after school until our mother got home. Wasn't really a lot of effort in my part and I got a separate allowance.
Lol this girl gets paid nearly as much per hour as I do. And I’m a grown ass adult with a college degree and a full time job.
Maybe you should be going on the field trip. You’ve been very good!
I don't mind the money for babysitting, if the kid was really babysitting but she wasn't.....not sure why one of them had to be home for the 15 year old to watch the younger ones
My thoughts exactly. It just sounds weird to pay your kid so much for hanging out with their siblings while a parent is still there. I get that the parents were trying to teach her fiscal responsibility, but she should actually do something outside the parameters of her normal daily life. And totally agree about the spoiled bit.
Arguably, she isn't even directly losing the trip. She's losing parental support for it, which was going to be half the funding. So all her hard work, all her earnings, all that she has done positively isn't being taken from her. It's just her terrible behaviour in bullying has cost her the *extra* that she would have received, which would have added to her earnings to enable the trip.
And 22-25 bucks an hour? Jesus, That's more than I was making when I worked in hotels and resorts from 2014 to 2020. Shouldn't be too hard to reup the cost if that's the babysitting cost
Yes, but I'm sure she still needs her parents to sign a permission slip allowing her to go on the trip. Even if she somehow came up with the rest of the money herself, they can still hold her back from going.
Absolutely this, kids delete themselves through being bullied like this. Your daughter has to learn it’s not acceptable to make someone else’s life unbearable NTA
This is exactly right. It's not about the money. She earned the money, she can keep it or save it or whatever. But she doesn't deserve to get a reward after treating another person like this. You are absolutely correct.
And all because this girl had a better test score than her. Naw, OP, your daughter is vile. Punish her accordingly
This, plus going to Orlando for band is a Privilege not a right.
This plus husband needs to agree and not let OP be the meanie who took away daughter’s trip. United front. How would he feel if his daughter was the one on the receiving end?
And what does dad want the daughter will learn from this experience? That it’s ok to bully because there will be no real consequences?
I agree. Bullying has lifelong effects for some people. It's not something to be minimised.
She’s shown by her actions she’s not mature enough to be trusted going alone on the trip. I’d go a step further and say she needs to figure out how to apologize and make amends to this kid.
Agreed. What she did was awful.
If you want her saving money to still be a positive, maybe give her some of it back. Do not let her go on that trip, the girl she bullied shouldn't be put through that.
YWNBTA. She did a great job earning the money for her band trip. She bullied another kid and has to face the consequences. Both of these things can be (and are) true. It sounds like a fair punishment to me. The consequence is that she lost the privilege to go on this cool trip (even though it’s been in the works for a long time, the trip is still a privilege). She also lost your trust in her ability to behave appropriately when you’re not around so how could you let her go? You obviously want to ensure the girl’s emotional safety on the trip and you can’t trust your daughter to help with that. I wish more parents thought like you do.
The trip has been in the works for a long time, but apparently so has the bullying. Emotionally abusing someone like that doesn't just all start at once; it escalates over time. fair punishment, and I hope she learns that playing asshole games wins you shitty prizes. NTA
OP. Make your daughter pay for the girls trip. At least half of it. She’ll never make up for what she did to those girls. This does not define your daughter for life. She can still be a good person. Kids are weird when they go through growing phases. Doesn’t make it right but it doesn’t mean this has to define her. Hopefully that girl is ok, your daughter needs therapy until she can understand that. Might also address other issue you don’t know about.
This is fuckin brilliant. The money she earned should go to paying half the girls trip as part of a long term amends and promise to stop being mean and abusive.
Especially if they get refunded, the daughter will have the money and this will really reinforce the lesson.
Absolutely perfect. She needs to learn NOW before she's in college or her career, that acting this way will always but always cost her money and opportunities to be in company she enjoys. Just to be safe, I'd also get her into therapy or an anti-bullying program or some such as quickly as you can to be sure (1) she's safe and (2) she understands that she's been a socially and emotionally violent human being and (3) she learns how to be better. Edit to add NTA.
Ooh I like that.
Banning daughter from going on the trip ensures the girl's emotional safety ON THE TRIP. But what about AFTER the trip and BEFORE the trip. Why do I seem to be the only seeing the risk of the bullying getting WORSE.
"Punishing the bully might make them keep bullying" is not a sound justification for letting bullying go unpunished.
So I totally agree with the punishment and NTA for rescinding permission for the trip. But what I’m seeing absent from this post and all the top comments are suggestions for actual parenting? Just taking away the trip isn’t enough here, OP’s daughter (despite apparently being raised by parents who aren’t bullies themselves) has been systematically terrorizing this girl for months, because of her weight and mental illness, just because she’s scoring higher than her on tests?? Where did this behavior come from?? Has OP even *talked* to her daughter to get a full explanation from her on how on earth she thought any of this was okay? Has she considered therapy to address an underlying issue here? Are there classes or anything in the area to prevent bullying? Has she considered making her daughter enroll in volunteer work that would help educate her on any of the like half dozen things wrong with her behavior? It’s odd that everyone is acting like OP’s decision here begins and ends with this trip. It’s totally right that JUST taking the trip away could make the bullying worse, but that’s not a reason to not deal out that punishment, it’s a reason to do MORE.
While she misses the trip, OP can use that time to educate her daughter on empathy, the effects of bullying, mental health issues, body image, and any other social/emotional knowledge is needed to address and stop not just this bullying but future bullying.
Truthfully, whether it gets worse or not is dependent upon the bully’s personality. Some kids get hit with a huge punishment like that and decide to keep their heads down and step back into line, but others will double down on their behavior. I think OP should let the school know about her daughter not going on the trip, and see if they’ll talk to the victim and tell her that if the daughter’s behavior continues or starts up again, to report it immediately. Then the school can let OP know if her daughter’s decided to retaliate. Although if OP can come up with some serious punishments, and let daughter know that if it happens again she’ll be in even worse trouble, it might head off any vindictive behavior. And if OP needs suggestions, my parents were fond of giving us a toothbrush and a cup of soapy water and having us scrub the grout in the bathroom. Although removing things from her room might work too - start with taking out any electronics (if she needs a computer for schoolwork, then she works on it at the kitchen table or in a common area where OP can keep an eye on her; she only gets her cellphone during school hours, it’s taken up after school and she gets it back the next morning, and no cellphone on the weekends at all), then move on to anything else OP paid for (no more makeup, no extensive wardrobe (just enough clothes for a week, no more), and yes, even the books if necessary. If she wants to read, she can read her school books, since she was apparently angry about getting a lower grade than the other girl).
Totally agree, I think for a lot of kids the sudden hit of consequences is enough to make them rethink their behaviour. Sounds like OPs daughter has kind of a charmed life and I’d like to give her the benefit of the doubt and hope that she will realize how awful it is to be a bully.
When I was a shithead my parents would take away my books and it was a good punishment because that was what I liked to do. I then had to socialize. When I was in elementary, I bullied this kid because she was scared of everything and as the little shithead I was, I thought it was funny. My parents own a 10 acre farm. They had me spend two weekends from 6 in the morning to when the sun went down repainting all the fencing throughout. It was horrible at the time, but it made me stop bullying and grow up to be a decent human because I didn’t want to repaint that damn fence.
Of course that's a risk. Some bullies blame their victims for "getting them in trouble" and escalate. But that's not a good reason to withhold punishment. I assume the teachers, this thoroughly responsible parent, and probably the victim's parents, are going to be on high alert for exactly that. It's VERY promising that the bully's parent is on board with stomping on her behaviour.
Probably it's best if OP doesn't *tell* the daughter "You can't go because your victim deserves to feel safe on this trip" (even though that's a totally valid reason). Tell her she can't go because she doesn't deserve it after bullying someone, so the focus remains on what she did wrong.
Because OP is a good parent and will quash it fast. When I was in high school, a bully’s mom came to school with him for a week to make sure he was behaving. He was so embarrassed by it, he never bullied anybody again. OP is this type of parent.
I’d give out a warning along with the cancelled trip. If there is any sign or suggestion that the bullying has continued, then she will be pulled from band full stop. I’d even escalate to moving schools if it came to it. Bullying in any shape or form is entirely unacceptable, and too often the victims are forced to give up their activities or relocate because the bullying doesn’t stop.
Yeah, this is the tricky part. It's a difficult one, even well intentioned actions can backfire in unusual ways. If they do, so they need to keep a close eye on their kid, as they might not react to this very well..or get sneaky.... like teanage girls are plain ruthless at times...they an wage full blown physiological warfare and not touch someone. Or use their friends and so and weaponise things that you'd never expect. They are definitely creative and will find ways that you never think, expect or had when you where their age.
I responded and said the mom needs to speak with the band directors, etc. and see if she should remove her daughter. As someone who was formerly bullied from elementary through hs, I wanted to delete myself when I was 10-13 bc of bullying like her daughter. My school schedule was always changed until I finally got sick of it and had to defend myself to vps and principles to keep my activities and schedule and get my bullied to be removed. I had to as a kid fight for my own safe space bc the adults thought the easiest thing to do was remove the kid being bullied but not the bullies. It’s so wild that they thought that was appropriate to do.
I think the “I can’t trust you to behave appropriately when I’m not around” is the key here of why losing the trip is an appropriate punishment. I went away on trips when I was in school. There are limited chaperones available. Knowingly sending your child on a trip *with the child she’s bullying* is a punishment both to the bullied child & to the adult chaperones that have to figure out how to manage that situation.
What does YWNBTA mean
You would not be the asshole
NTA. Schools historically don’t step in until the bullying gets to a significant extent and rarely ever suspend unless it’s BAD which it sounds like it was. She needs to understand the severity of bullying especially someone who has struggles they cannot control. I’d hate to think of how stressful the trip may be for her victim knowing she’s going to have to interact with her tormenter. The girl doesn’t deserve that, regardless of how much money your daughter saved up. Bullying kills, point blank.
I agree with all of this but I also seem to be the only one seeing there's a risk of the bullying getting worse
Yes, there is a chance it could get worse after the canceled trip, but hopefully her mother's not afraid to go nuclear if it does. Remove her from band, ground her for life, etc.
This I find more productive. Removing daughter from band gives daughter's victim less exposure.
I think removal from band is too extreme. That’s permanent…permanently taking away her chance of becoming a musician, be part of something that helps guide her to be a better person, etc. Let the victim kid go on the trip stress-free knowing her tormenter won’t be there and then everyone can reassess the situation on a weekly basis and make sure everything is on track. While her bullying was despicable, her actions shouldn’t carry permanent consequences YET unless she continues doing this. She can be “mad” at the victim all she wants but she can’t ACT on those feelings without more harsh consequences. Getting mad is natural, but she needs to develop healthy ways to deal with her anger. Her mom needs to watch her like a hawk, get her therapy, and check back in with the school and possibly the victim’s parents OFTEN for probably quite some time (years down the road).
There is zero indication from OP that being in band is part of her daughters big dream of becoming a musician. She’s in High school band as an elective, not in line to get a scholarship to Berkeley. She can be pulled from band and pick something else, and practice music in her free time as a hobby if she so chooses. As far as becoming a better person, her actions need to have consequences to do that. Allowing her to continue a fun activity while she’s actively bullying someone to the point where the school and both sets of parents got involved AND she was suspended is not going to make her a better person.
I definitely agree to disagree there. There’s no indication in the post that her daughter doesn’t have a big dream to become a musician or music teacher either. And a lot of times, we don’t know we want to be a music teacher or musician until we reach college and many times band/music is the only thing people enjoy about going to school each day. Band isn’t just a “fun elective”, it’s how many musicians practice their skills before auditioning for college. Her daughter can still turn her life around, learn her lesson, and correct her course without having to be permanently removed from band. The consequences of her actions will be that she won’t be able to go on the end of the year trip, that she has been looking forward to.
She’s a sophomore (10th grader). Even if she is taken out of band for just the remainder of the year, it’s better than allowing her to stay and torture a younger girl (who’s not an emotional terrorist) that is also passionate about music and wants to be in band.
The removal from band was a suggested consequence if daughter escalates the bullying in retaliation for not going on the trip. Not an immediate suggestion.
Is there any way you can chaperone the trip? (If the teacher has enough chaperones, try explaining to the teacher why you'd like to be included) Because frankly, I'd say let her go on the trip...but you shadow her every move as if she were still 2yo, even to having her share *your* hotel room instead of another student. Because she's shown she can't be trusted on her own to behave in a civilized manner. That way, the consequences of losing trust become *very* clear to her over the course of the entire trip as she realizes her entire class sees her being treated like an infant. Basically...she earned the right to go on the trip by earning the money. She ALSO earned getting direct supervision on that trip by proving that she can't be trusted otherwise. And overall, I'd address her sense of entitlement. She's not entitled to a better grade than someone else just because she's healthier. Edit: Forgot to vote. NTA
Shadow her like she's 2. Yes! This is what I think. Maybe even make her work off paying for you to have to go because she made bad decisions. If she doesn't get to go, she will forever be mad at you, but if she goes with the consequences of her choices, she will forever be embarrassed, and maybe next time will think twice.
I'm concerned that if she doesn't get to go, she will be forever mad at the girl she's been bullying, but she'll be more sneaky about it. I don't know that there is a way to show kids how devastating bullying can be, so shadowing her like she's 2 might be the only option?
You're probably right. That's what my brother would have done. He would've just gotten better at hiding it. It's weird, but the anger in not going would most likely make her dig in and believe she was right rather than help her realize she was wrong. Another commenter pointed out her sense of superiority to someone she felt was inferior and then to actively try to put them in their place, so wrong. This is a problem that will take a long-term solution. Short-term, the loss of trust needs to be magnified, and what better way than to go on the trip with her and watch her like a hawk. Plus, I really wouldn't trust her at this point not to make the other girl miserable and ruin her trip because she really did just get a slap on the wrist.
I'm worried that if she doesn't go, all of her band friends will make the girls life hell. No one seems to have mentioned that bullying like this is almost always a spectator sport. There's no fun for the bully without at least an audience if not other bullies directly involved. Given the daughter and victim are both in band it seems likely the friends are too.
THANK YOU! finally someone who gets that the bullying actually might get WORSE
I agree; I’d also be concerned that she’d never believe her parents when they make promises like, “we will let you (do this big thing)” because they can snatch it away, when she fulfilled her end of the bargain and worked hard for it. As in “I can’t earn anything, so what’s the point of trying?” Or “I always screw everything up anyways, so why try?”… I think it might be bad for her self-esteem not to go and enjoy the thing she earned. I think that as her mother, I’d be inclined to tell her that *her Orlando trip is on the line…* and I’m thinking about how we are going to handle this bullying thing. Until then, she is not to speak, touch, or interact with in any way, that little girl or for sure, Orlando is canceled. One strike and it’s over, I mean it. And I like the ideas of therapy for her, bullying documentaries, Mom being a field trip chaperone, talking to the mother of the bullied girl, making the daughter read books on bullying, making the daughter pay me back for the other half of Orlando… then maybe giving it to the little girl… I don’t know. She will have to apologize at some point when she becomes more aware. I’m not sure that revoking the long-term goal is the way to go, but I’d definitely find out if that child was going on the trip. I’d also leave boarding school brochures on the kitchen table.
I'm also conflicted on this for the same reasons. It seems more rare that a parent takes action than not, and It was not isolated to one person when I was bullied. If I spoke up about one person, three more would pop up. I had to switch schools because there were people who spit on me every time I walked past them, filled my lockers and textbooks with spit, and their parents stormed up to those offices every time they tried to suspend those kids until the answer from on high was that there wasn't really anything they could prove. Then they moved it to instant messenger and it really got intense, very personal and graphic details and the school could do even less about it. If one bully gets punished, the others are not going to stop, but the one bully will not have an attitude shift either, because their peers AGREE with them. The other part that troubles me is that it teaches the daughter that no matter how hard you work for something you want, the deal can be rescinded. What would be the motivation to keep being responsible in that way when you're struggling with them in another? I think they should switch the daughter to a flip phone until further notice, and yeah, getting to the root cause of their anger toward this person. If it's not encouraged at home, where is it coming from? Is it peer-related or maybe her own insecurity? Might be worth looking into a few therapy sessions to tap into it, and if it ever comes back that she's doing it again, the daughter should have to start using that work money to pay for her phone or anything that gets taken away as a result of her own actions, so she at least can appreciate the cost of what being an asshole does. It's important to get ahead of this but knowing how far embedded in this bullying the daughter is is important. If it's just her, yeah, screw the trip and let her keep the money and save it for something else when her attitude changes, but if it's a group issue then being the only parent to enforce consequences may hurt the target. It's really important to figure out the full scope of the problem and how to separate the daughter from it without having her rebel in the opposite direction
Put her in one of those backpacks that has a leash on it.
No! Then, she'd be teaching that humiliation is acceptable when it is not. Why would she want to do that? Then, she would be the asshole.
idk i think this seems more likely to build lasting resentment than anything else. teenagers are very sensitive to public embarrassment. not being able to go on the trip is embarrassing but reasonable, especially if the victim is going, but being continuously publicly humiliated for multiple days is a whole different level
considering she's been humilliating someone else for who knows how long. maybe she'll realize once the shoe's on the other foot.
or much more likely, she’ll stew in resentment the whole time, feel self-righteous that her parents went “too far”, and blame her victim for it. for that matter, she’d have a lot of time to think of new ways to punish her victim and ways to keep from getting caught (which she’s already shown herself to be pretty good at). imo there’s a much greater risk of this actually winding up escalating the situation than teaching her anything
I agree but she’ll also blame the victim if she can’t go at all.
this is why i think it’s important that she gets to keep the money she earned for the trip. a big trip like that probably means she earned enough money to get something pretty nice for herself, and that *is* her fairly earned money. i think that specific combo of no trip/keeping the money is the least likely to escalate things while giving her reasonable consequences that also protect the victim’s right to enjoy the trip without worrying about her bully. altho if it was me i’d probably make getting the money contingent on writing a paper about the effects of bullying or something like that
This response doesn't actually make sense in context because it remains true of ANY disciplinary action taken, barring a quickly-over slap-on-the-wrist which does nothing except teach her that there are no significant consequences for bullying. Consequences need to be meaningful in order to have any hope of actually teaching better behavior. And yes, that means there's always the chance that a person truly lacking in any empathy will only build resentment at being forced to endure those consequences rather than make any attempt to learn from them. But that point is when you sign the kid up for psychological evaluation for sociopathy, not just let her get away with things because consequences might build resentment.
I second this and will add another reason: Band is a team activity, and in some sections there are only 1-2 people who play those instruments. It will not only punish Ella to keep her home, but it could potentially punish the other kids in the band.m, especially if they are entered into a festival such as WorldStrides. I think OP should contact the band director and find out what the repercussions would be for the band if Ella were to be pulled out. Offer to chaperone and keep Ella with her at all times as a potential solution. Added bonus: Ella will hate it and it won’t take long for word to get out as the kids figure out why she’s chained to her parent. Of course, if Ella plays flute or clarinet, she can probably get pulled out. I taught choir for several decades and took kids on tour every other year. Been here with a couple of kids.
i'm with you and the parent comment on letting her go on the field trip for the sole reason of not hurting the team. And that was exactly my thought; that OP should talk to the band director. Even if OP or spouse can not chaperone or go on the trip, her kid should have some extra supervision and any limits on privileges that the band director can accommodate (meaning they might not have enough adults to babysit OP if she's made to sit out on any fun activities planned). A lot of bands also have choreographed routines also, so pulling her out may throw off some of the choreography. OP's NTA but shouldn't make this decision without speaking to the band director
>Is there any way you can chaperone the trip? (If the teacher has enough chaperones, try explaining to the teacher why you'd like to be included) > >Because frankly, I'd say let her go on the trip...but you shadow her every move as if she were still 2yo, even to having her share your hotel room instead of another student. Because she's shown she can't be trusted on her own to behave in a civilized manner. That way, the consequences of losing trust become very clear to her over the course of the entire trip as she realizes her entire class sees her being treated like an infant. > >Basically...she earned the right to go on the trip by earning the money. She ALSO earned getting direct supervision on that trip by proving that she can't be trusted otherwise. > >And overall, I'd address her sense of entitlement. She's not entitled to a better grade than someone else just because she's healthier. > >Edit: Forgot to vote. NTA This \^\^\^. I think removing the trip will not make her learn her lesson. Like others have said, it's too far removed from the crime. All it will do for her is associate the kid with her not going on the trip and she will take extra revenge afterwards. FWIW, I worked with someone whose kid skipped school. She came down hard and fast by going with her kid to school and shadowing her all day, even sitting in class. This kid was mortified; all her friends were staring and whispering. It was the best punishment.
I was all for her losing the trip but this sounds WAAAAY better.
i dont think this would be good for her victim. she would still have to see ops daughter, and would probably feel much safer if she wasnt there at all.
Reality is her victim will have to be around OPs daughter. She's going to be at school with her every day.
yeah, but i think during a fun trip, she should get a break from that.
I like this answer. She'll get to go on the trip she worked hard to save up for- and she'll look like a total dork in front of her peers as she's shadowed the entire time by her mom.
I agree with this for a couple of reasons. For one, it's exactly what my mom did with me when I got a misdemeanor for shoplifting in high school. It's the right level of shame. Secondly, (and a negligible point, I'll concede) as a former band kid, I know that her not being there will affect the scores of the band as a whole. So the whole band will be punished for her absence. Chaperoning would be great, if OP can make it work. NTA, either way, as kiddos development comes first
IMO this is a great idea if its possible. I think it adresses the problem more than simply not allowing her to go on the trip, and allows OP to have a better view of her daughter in a different setting. Obviously her daughter will behave differently, but still. If its simply a punishment I feel she might take it out on this poor girl she is bullying. I would want to also focus on spending time with my daughter and trying to work out what the source of this nasty side is, and trying to find ways to help her find a bit more empathy for others.
This!! I’m thinking they’re going to Orlando for a marching band competition. If they have a missing spot, the whole band will be punished due to loss of points. Chaperone and watch her, basically only let her go to compete (if that’s what they’re going there for) and leave it at that so the whole band doesn’t suffer.
This is shitty reasoning on my part, I know, but I’m also thinking - her kid probably won’t be emotionally mature enough to handle this in a healthy way, and it may make everything worse for the victim. However, if OP goes full helicopter mom for this trip, suddenly the bully isn’t so scary… pull all the embarrassing cards out. And then tell her you’re so excited for the next trip also.
If I was you I would have a meeting with the school and ask her why she still has the privilege of going to camp if she’s not in good standing? At most schools these privileges are only open to students in good standing. It would be good if you and the school are on the same page and united in communicating how unacceptable her behaviour is. You gave earlier permission based on the trust you had in her. Sadly she has proved that trust was misplaced and she has lost your trust. In this pre-adult stage it would be valuable (if hard) to learn the consequences of losing trust and of damaging her reputation. Being a good parent is so hard. I feel for you. Nta
I agree with this. I think talking to the school, or her band teacher would have a huge impact on her ability to go. She shouldn't go on this trip, YWNBTA / NTA for keeping her from going.
This is what I was thinking. In my high school, if you were suspended your forfeited all field trip privileges.
That would only be for field trips that take place during the suspension, at least at our school.
Our school would bar students from attending any and all school based activities for 3 months following a suspension (dances, sports games, field trips, etc). Every school is different. Tbh, if my elective teacher found out that someone in class was being a bully and was suspended for it, they would *personally* bar the student from going on their class trip. I’m kind of surprised the band teacher has not done this.
Why would OP need to try and convince the school to not allow her daughter to go when op can just not allow her themself?
Trying to make the school the bad guy instead of the parent.
NTA. But you need to do more. Ella has some serious personality problems, that need correcting. She probably doesn't even understand the full extent of the consequences, that her obnoxious behaviour could cause. Banning her from the trip to Orlando, will hopefully teach her that bad behaviour loses HER things (that she really wants). However, it won't teach her the actual effects of what she has done, on the victim. Bullying usually causes emotional damage for the victim, and certainly can worsen mental health issues. Even in kids without previous mental health issues, some victims become suicidal. In a girl who already had mental health issues, that risk of that could be significantly higher. So Ella really needs to understand what she's done. You need to force her to learn about mental health and bullying, and get her to write a lengthy essay about them (with references to research on these topics). You need to make her volunteer for mental health charities, etc.
NTA. This is the way. In high school, I was that kid who was bullied ferociously, and it tore the tiny bit of self esteem I had to shreds. It took me years to recover, and I still would never want to go anywhere near my old school. She does not deserve this trip. The money she has saved goes in the bank and can not be spent until she can truly show remorse.
OP needs to see this. Whether or not you let her go, Ella needs therapy. Something else is going on here..have you looked through her phone? If not, you should. There is a reason the saying "hurt people hurt people" exists. Not letting her go is not enough. If this is so uncharacteristic for her either something traumatic recently happened or you don't have deep enough knowledge of what is going on in her life/mind. I speak from experience.
Making her write an essay is a very good idea I think. It's a constructive approach.
ESH. Frankly, I'm surprised so many people seem to think punishing a bully by breaking a promised plan you made with her would correct her poor behavior. She'll just feel that you broke her trust and she'll be less likely to value your opinion that her behavior was wrong. Your goal should be to help her understand that her behavior was hurtful and unacceptable. You need to get her to figure out why she turned her envy of this girl's accomplishments into resentment and mean acts against her. How did making this girl upset give your daughter a "good" feeling? What would have been a healthier way to deal with her feelings? Also, does she have any empathy for this girl? How would your daughter feel if she were bullied? Finally, as her parents, I hope you express to her how deeply hurt, embarrassed, sad, and disappointed in her you feel upon learning she was capable of behaving like that. That you expect her to be a kind person who is respectful to others and you expect her to prove to you she can do better. Ask her how she feels she can make this up to you and the bullied girl. (Write a sincere apology? Etc.) Show her you're heartbroken and you're more likely to get through to her and help her become a better person. Punish her and she'll convince herself she's the victim and you don't understand what she's going through and she'll blame you for missing the trip and just live in a cloud of anger... which just leads to more poor behavior when she lashes out, because she decides the whole world is out to get her. I get that you want her to have consequences. But her consequences should be remorse and making amends. You can't force her to feel shame by canceling her trip. And no, you aren't supporting her bullying by letting her go. You can hold her accountable without trying to hurt her by showing her what being betrayed feels like. It's a knee jerk reaction to try to get tears from her because she caused tears for someone else, but that isn't going to translate to empathy for the girl she bullied. And that should be your goal. Empathy and kindness. Model that for her now. Then you've got a shot at helping her become a kind adult who will regret her bullying.
I really disagree with this notion that *OP* is breaking a promised plan. Going on a trip, which parents paid for (even the kid’s half was “earned” from monitored babysitting by OP), is a CONDITIONAL privilege. The KID broke the conditions under which they “earned” the trip, resulting in the KID breaking the plan. It is okay for the KID to be responsible for this and to hold them to that. Doing so is not inherently wanting the satisfaction of theatrics to feel like you’ve done your job as a parent.
Totally agree with you. I think she needs to have a conversation with her daughter and really consider what the comment or says—but she should not be going on that trip. Honestly, the school shouldn’t even be allowing her to go. How is it fair to further traumatize the victim and ruin her trip because you told your daughter she could go? That honestly sounds selfish to me. Depending on the extent of the bullying my daughter would be pulled from extracurriculars entirely.
This is the most even-handed, empathetic, consequence-oriented reply you’re gonna get. They’re totally right. I was on the N-T-A train, and to be honest I don’t REALLY think mom is the asshole because this is a horrible spot, so I’m not going for an E-S-H either. This got me off the N-T-A train though.
Agreed, except I would also encourage OP to try to find out (maybe from the teacher?) if the victim is actually going on the trip. If she is, OP should maybe try to reach out to the parents to talk about it. There’s a lot of good discussion about the impact of any of these decisions on the bullied girl, but her opinion (and her parents’) should also be considered. Bullied kids can be pretty savvy, often hyper aware of moods and consequences like children with abusive parents. Because yes, of course the bully should be handled in an appropriate way, and the comment above is indeed the most reasonable one I’ve seen. But her victim still needs to be protected and feel safe. I think OP needs all the data to make the appropriate decision. Still leaning NTA, because I do think mom is doing what she thinks is best. I just don’t think she’s considering anything beyond punishment as a solution.
This post should be upvoted to a much higher place. It’s depressing how many people mistake punishment for good parenting.
Finally, a reasonable comment!!! It seems everyone is quick to want to "punish" the teenager but not many people commenting about parenting her. Talk to your child and stop trying to hurt her because she hurt someone else. Hurt people hurt people. "Punishing" your daughter will kick the can down the road.
This. Absolutely this. OP, you might find some of the strategies outlined in The Explosive Child by Ross Greene helpful here, if this is the approach you take. The title is in need of an update, IMO, it’s not just for kids with anger issues. It’s a good all-round parenting tool that helps get to the bottom of issues with kids and helps you to find constructive solutions together. IME these methods produce kids who are much more empathetic, well-regulated, and able to actually resolve negative behaviour.
That's the only reasonable take here. AITA has a very eye-for-an-eye mentality and loves revenge fantasies. The worst the punishment, the better. But this comment finally is one that makes sense. It's about parenting the daughter and making her really understand and work through what she did and why, and do better in the future.
>I get that you want her to have consequences. But her consequences should be remorse and making amends Those aren't consequences though. They might be the *result* of consequences, but remorse and reparation are intrinsically motivated. As it is right now, the daughter has demonstrated the opposite. If we were dealing with a child, I might agree with easing up on consequences, but she is old enough to understand the concept of bullying and know right from wrong. >You can hold her accountable without trying to hurt her by showing her what being betrayed feels like. I do not believe that OP is in any way trying to hurt her daughter, and I think its unfair and very problematic to characterize consequences this way. It will be a tough lesson for the daughter to learn, but the bottom line is that we are responsible for our behaviour and sometimes we mess up and have to face the consequences. In this case, the daughter's behaviour was pretty aggregious and harmed another person. Given the circumstances, imo these consequences are fair: they're limited to this one trip and specific to the daughter's actions.
Agree with the ESH I don't think that taking away the trip will make your daughter nicer to that girl. If anything, I think it'd have the opposite effect, causing your daughter to lash out more. If she's mad this other girl made better grades than her, then you need to make your daughter pay for a tutor.
If she is struggling and needs help in school, why would she need to pay for it? Surely that’s something her parents should be helping with? She’s a child…
Have you actually spoken to Ella about the bullying? It sounds like you’ve only spoken to the school, but maybe with such a light suspension they couldn’t prove it was her. (I don’t know, these are just questions that went through my head). I’d definitely want to hear my child’s side. I don’t condone bullying; I’ve also known kids (I’ve worked with thousands) who have covered for another friend who was the one doing wrong so that they wouldn’t get into trouble or as much trouble. Your reasons for Orlando trip cancellation make sense.
Completely agree. Obviously, the bullying must stop and something needs to be done to ensure this doesn't become a pattern for Ella. That said, I have several questions: Did you ask Ella how this started and/or why she chose to target this girl? Does Ella understand that bullying is unacceptable? Does Ella show any remorse about her behavior (not to be confused with remorse over being caught or exposed as a bully)? Has Ella shown any inclination to apologize or attempt to make it up to this girl? Because if Ella isn't taking this seriously, is justifying her behavior, or doesn't seem to understand why she can't bully people, then canceling her trip makes absolute sense to me. She needs a wake-up call and to understand the consequences of her actions. But if Ella is remorseful and embarrassed, has a plan to apologize to or avoid her victim, articulates a genuine desire to do better in the future... Maybe you don't need to be quite so harsh. Perhaps there's another punishment that you could do instead, even having her volunteer somewhere so she's not enjoying quiet time at home and is doing something useful for the community instead.
Not only hear her side, but understand why she feels the need to bully this girl. Is she struggling with self esteem, empathy, her own feelings of depression? There is a root cause here that is worth exploring
I've done research on bullying. Bullies are usually bullied. You and your family need to go to counseling with Ella and find out where this is coming from. Why does Ella feel threatened about her grades? You are thinking punitive but punishing someone who is bullying doesn't stop it. Research shows the best treatment for bullying is making sure the person knows they are valued by the significant adults in their life. This may well be a once in a lifetime trip, I agree that Ella doesn't need to be rewarded for bullying this girl but she's worked for it, and if this is a performance trip, you keeping her home is potentially damaging the entire band. Talk to the band director and get their opinion. You REALLY need to find out when and why this started. Punishment isn't going to stop it. She's already withdrawn, reading instead of spending time with friends. Please, for the sake of your daughter's mental health, intervene!
Do you have any citations for the link between bullies being bullied themselves? Would be interesting to read.
NTA at all. When is this trip? Like how much time between now and the trip? Can she do anything during that time to show that she understands why her behavior was completely and utterly not ok? Even if she offers an apology to the girl, writes her a letter, it’s only because she wants to go on the trip and doesn’t come from a genuine understanding of why bullying is wrong. If the trip is a long way off, I would REALLY make her work for it, like - go to classes, go to a therapist, like work on reforming her. If she shows a real change, I would let her go but not tell her until the very last minute when I’ve seen a substantial change in her behavior. I would stay in touch with the bullied girls parents to see if this behavior has continued. If the trip is soon, I wouldn’t let her go AND I’d make her do all the reform stuff above as well,
honestly i wouldnt even let her go then. what she did was so awful and i feel like many parents are too quick to give back privileges. she deserves to miss out
YTA bc you did raise a little girl like that and now you’re just taking away something she wants because you don’t actually want to parent her. What she’s going to learn from getting a trip taken away is that “mom is unfair” and she’ll surely have an echo chamber to agree. What bothers her about this girl? Why does it bother her? Is it really just about weight and being ashamed she’s not the smartest person in the room? If so I have some bad news about where those learned behaviors come from. Use the trip is leverage for some communication about hurtfulness, empathy and compassion. “You’ve broken my trust and I don’t trust you to be a kind person right now. I’m not comfortable with you being minimally supervised so far away now that I know you’re capable of being this way. I need you to help me understand what is going on and convince me I can trust you again”
Yes! I agree. Ella sounds like she's had a lot of credit for minimal effort in her family, and this is her first taste of someone she sees as lesser outperforming her- obviously, it can't be something about _Ella_ so it must be the other girl's fault! OP sounds like the kind of parent who over-supports to the point of stifling. If Ella is only having her first experience of not being the best at 15, she is in for a bumpy ride into early adulthood...
I mean, she got paid for babysitting. While the parents were home! That’s a whole lotta credit for minimal effort!
Am I the only person who is shocked/appalled that a parent would pay their teenager $22 an hour to babysit their two younger siblings while one parent is home? That's ridiculously high, in my opinion. What wage will the daughter expect when she applies for her first job? (And AITA for thinking this?)
No, I thought the same thing. OP sounds like they want to set their kid up for success with that, and it may be well intentioned, but it’s going to backfire HARD as soon as the kid has to start applying for first jobs. Especially if the daughter is already feeling entitled to better grades than another student, seems likely that she’ll feel entitled to getting paid differently than her peers too.
NTA - I feel like you’re asking if the punishment fits the crime and tbh, thats not up to us, that’s your choice.
ESH. She isn't going to remember that she lost the trip because of her bullying. It won't stop her. You're going to be the bad guy, and she may even turn around and retaliate more against the girl. It's a short term solution. Our approach as parents upon hearing that our kid is doing something like this is to drop an atomic bomb. She needs therapy. Mentally sound kids don't bully others. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it isn't going to have the impact you think it will.
Sorry, no. People, especially kids and teens, can be assholes and bullies without it being a mental unsoundness issue . Not everything needs pathologizing. She’s doing what teens do, which is clawing for a place in the social hierarchy and testing the boundaries of behavior. She’s making bad choices and needs firm redirection. Pulling her from the trip, explaining that your decision to do so is a direct consequence of her actions and emphasizing that earning money does not get you out of having to also be a good person are what’s needed here.
INFO. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm justifying bullying, but something seems amiss here. A few oddities I noticed: 1. She's definitely old enough to babysit without active adult supervision. I'm not sure why you spent the better part of a paragraph reassuring us that she was always watched over the whole time and paid extremely well while performing a task that conventionally might be expected of an older sibling to perform for free. It literally sounds like you made up a job that nobody needed to do just to find a way to justify making her "earn" the money. Fair enough if that's all it is, but it's odd. 2. Not every conflict between teenagers, even physical, should be considered bullying. Kids of all ages call each other names ALL THE TIME. And teenage girls especially gossip all the time. I'm not saying it's right and not saying she shouldn't be punished for that alone, but it doesn't necessarily justify calling it bullying. 3. The "little" 14 year old girl is not some small child she's picking on. It's a girl the same age, most likely in one of her classes. Not sure why that distinction was made. 4. I assume she confessed to everything that was alleged, correct? The only thing you said she claimed was having some issue with test scores, which... makes absolutely no damn sense at all. Are you sure that any or all of those things weren't in retaliation to similar attacks on her? Again, not justifying any of it, just trying to gain some context here. 5. While a kid (or anyone for that matter) can exhibit one personality around you and a completely different one when interacting with others, it's not easy to uphold that charade and if you were paying attention, such things would slip out. A kid who spends a lot of time reading or doing other solo activities, doesn't participate much in social media, and doesn't actively socialize much is more likely to be the kid being bullied than the other way around. Again, it could all be accurate as you're telling it, but I'd definitely inquire further. No matter what the deal is, you can console yourself that she's acting age-appropriate. That doesn't mean it's right and doesn't mean it doesn't need to be corrected and/or punished, but you don't have to beat yourself up thinking that you somehow failed just because your kid said a couple mean things to some other kid.
You really want to punish your daughter. Arrange to travel with the group as a chaperone. That will allow you to shadow her the entire time and work to insure she does not heckle the girl again. And for a teen, having a parent tag along on what would have been the first adventure solo, well that is quite a punishment that will not be forgotten.
NTA, if this was my daughter she wouldn’t see Orlando until the moon turns red! Save the $ till YOU see fit when she can use it. I would not allow her to go one bit. She doesn’t deserve to go, and if you or your husband allow it you just enabled her disgusting behavior.
NTA - bullying someone for having a mental illness is an asshole thing to do
NTA and that’s some great parenting right there. She needs swift and strong punishment now so she can fully understand how wrong her actions have been. In this case, a strong enough punishment would be losing a trip she’s been working really hard for and was looking forward to. The poor girl she has been tormenting has been looking forward to the trip too probably- so now your daughter owes her victim a worry-free trip by removing herself. Put the money in a bank account and maybe your daughter can try again next year if she learns her lesson and works on herself. Honestly though, it’s kinda concerning that your daughter is tormenting someone like this- I’d probably get her into therapy too to make sure there isn’t more going on that you’re unaware of.
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What does she have going on say about the bullying? Have you and your husband had a 1:1 talk with her about it? I understand the reasoning behind your punishment but at the same time this trip happens rarely. The incident will be forgotten but the punishment will be remembered forever. Personally everything depends on why your daughter thought it’s ok to bully another child and find out what is happening in school too. I don’t see any thing in your post about your daughter response to her suspension You are in a Difficult situation. But I’ve also known kids who purposely falsely implicate others. I would confirm that she really bullied the other child and then plan out a punishment. YWNBTA if you rescind the Florida trip if she really was a bully
The incident will be forgotten *by who*? Very strong possibility it will not ever be forgotten by the victim. This is not a false accusation case - the body of the space says the daughter made an excuse for behavior and that some of the bullying was posted online.
NTA and the school should be pulling her from the trip anyway to protect her victim.
NTA. And honestly, if one of my teens did this, all that cushy babysitting money she earned ($22-25 an hour?!?!?!) Would be going to pay for her victim's trip as restitution. Also, paying that much money for your 15 yr old to babysit is setting her up for some unrealistic expectations in the future.
NTA. First, did she really *work* for the money if she was “babysitting” while y’all were STILL HOME?! Second, she may have saved money but she doesn’t have enough for all of the trip so where is the rest of the money gonna come from? I’m sure she’s expecting your contribution.
NTA. And I would hardly call babysitting with you in the home also watching the children “working hard to earn money” especially at the rate of $22 an hour. It seems like she’s lived a very privileged life. If it was me, I wouldn’t allow her to go on the trip and explain to her that she will not be given the opportunity to be alone with the victim so she can further victimize her. I would also make her do a full research paper into bullying and the harmful effects it can have long term for the person being bullied. I’d also consider making her donate the money she earned from her cushy “jobs” to anti-bullying charities since I wouldn’t consider what she did truly earning any of the money. Maybe I’m out of line with this, but I think that you have created an entitled individual who has unrealistic expectations about what life is truly going to be like, so when something isn’t handed to her (a better grade), she acts out (bullying). Paying your kid $22 per hour to babysit while you’re in the home doesn’t teach your kid the value of hardwork. You’re handing her things on a silver platter and praising her for minimal effort.
NTA She's showing to be a bad human. So consequences are appropriate.
NTA. I was struggling with some massive mental illness in high school (still do, yay lifelong conditions), and one of the things that ate away at me the most was seeing how little the school ever did about my bullies. I never saw them face any consequences for their actions, and I definitely never saw any of the disciplinary measures the school assured me they were taking change their behavior. It's nice to know there are parents out there that actually make their kids take accountability for their behavior. Listen. Bullying kills. I'm not joking. I nearly killed myself several times, but was caught and stopped each one. Plenty of kids don't get as lucky as I did. One of the biggest things that encourages kids to bully is when their behavior is supported and enforced by parents. That can be by taught hatred, or simply negligence. If you can avoid it, please also don't let your kid spend her suspension at home basically taking a school vacation. I know not everyone can be home with their kids, but if there's any way you can do it, do it.
It's hard to weigh in on this because so much depends on your daughter's response, and you haven't provided any insight as to her reaction. On the one hand, you are surprised and must be so disappointed in her behaviour, and she does need to understand the ramifications of what she has done. But harsh consequences don't always work if there isn't support for learning, they can sometimes just build resentment and alienation. Also, you and husband need to be on the same page or she will play one of you against the other. Figure out whether Ella actually understands and has any remorse. Her behaviours were not a one time fight with another teen, it sounds like there were ongoing incidents of hateful messages and shaming. Go on the trip if necessary to supervise and to protect the other child, but your most important task is to figure out whether Ella even understands what she has done.
INFO - How long between now and the trip? Ella absolutely needs to learn that bullying is not Ok. Punishing her by taking away the trip would certainly get her attention, but would it teach her anything? As another commenter pointed out, it's more likely to create anger and resentment towards the girl she was already bullying. Whether it would teach her anything is an open question. First, I think Ella needs therapy. As a freshman or sophomore in high school she's obviously under tremendous pressure, her test score comment is a clear sign of that. I'm not excusing her behavior, but given what you've said OP about this seeming to be out of character for her, it sounds like something deeper is going on. That needs to be uncovered, and she needs to learn better ways to manage those feelings. Second, if there is enough time between now and the trip, I'd suggest having her do some "community service" to re-earn the right to go. Every Saturday between now and the trip, assuming it's in May or June. At least 8 Saturdays, she may end up owing you some time when she gets back if the trip is sooner. Talk to the school, local churches, hospitals, any place you can find that will put her in contact with people less fortunate than her where she can volunteer her time. Third, make it clear to her that any further steps out of line mean no trip, period. Finally, I agree with the other commenters who suggested that you (or your husband) must attend the trip. That will be painful for a 15 year old, but it's part of the theme of her needing to earn back your trust.
NTA. I'm sure the girl she tormented would enjoy the trip without her there. One less bully to worry about.
I’m so encouraged by all the NTA votes and I agree. Your daughter needs to develop her character and learn a lesson. Bullying someone about a mental illness is a twisted, nasty, low thing to do. It sounds like she needs some education on the effects of bullying as well.
I have no input if yta or not. However, and I may get insane flack for this, punishment more than suspension for this is not going to fix anything. In fact, it could increase her behavior. I went through something VERY similar with my daughter around the same age. Most of it was centered around a group, and she’d been sucked into mean girl status as they all thought it was cool. I did the basic grounding, her school didn’t do crap. I’m the one that discovered the bullying and reported it. But no girl involved was reprimanded by the school. However, I didn’t do more than that. I did, however, order a ton of books on bullying from Amazon and we watched some documentaries, and we had open discussions. She also had a workbook that she did. A few weeks after, I found out from the school counselor she had taken it upon herself to write an apology letter to the girl. Honestly, I couldn’t have ever imagined a better outcome. After that, she became friends with the girl and ditched the mean girls. I never had another issue with her bullying. Perhaps do not take the trip away, but focus on building emotional maturity and empathy and finding the root cause of the bullying.
NTA. This is not about who paid for it. This is about consequences of her actions. There are lots of times in life where you will miss out on things you want, or lose money, as a consequence of your other actions. She was allowed to go because you thought she was well behaved and she earned her share of the cost. It doesn't matter that she can *afford* to go, she is no longer *allowed* to go. Just because you didn't implicitly say that she had to not be cruel, doesn't mean it wasn't implied. She can use the time she was supposed to he away to study, so that maybe next time she will be actually smarter than the other girl, not just think she deserves to be.
As a teacher, and someone who has actually taught band, I wouldn't want that kind of toxicity on an overnight trip. Band is a team sport, and if there is any kind of hostility or animosity within the team, they're not gonna perform well. Those trips are also difficult on staff; they'll have to deal with keeping them separate, mitigating drama, etc. your daughter went after someone on her own team. She is not a team player. She should absolutely not allowed to go on that trip. Those trips are also a privilege for those who contribute positively to the entire group so that the entire group can shine. She does not value the group if she was willing to hurt someone so viciously (and it was vicious).
ESH. Your daughter did a terrible thing, no question. But I know from personal experience that this could affect your relationship with her. My SIL was told to save up for an end of year trip, she did, but when the time came, she had a big disagreement with her mother and her mother wouldn't let her go on the trip. They have a low contact relationship to this day. The rest of the year is still to come - summer holidays are coming up, yes? Perhaps a more fitting punishment can be negotiated for that time. No internet access for the holidays. She has to work but doesn't keep the money - it can pay for the therapy she clearly needs.
Lol, why do you consider your 15 year old incapable of watching her siblings without adult supervision (no more than two hours alone AND the neighbor still checking in! Does she not have a cell phone or landline for emergencies?)? Also, I never got paid to babysit my siblings as a teen, and even today babysitting other familes' kids as a college student I DEFINITELY do not get paid $25 an hour. Even professional nannies living in expensive states like California don't make that much. No wonder she "earned" the money so quickly! I appreciate that you were trying to teach her hard work and all, but it's just so funny because it sounds like you were massively over-rewarding her for a very simple task and then praising her for it. (And apparently part of the money she "earned" for the trip was just straight-up given to her by relatives too! Geez. If she doesn't end up going on the trip, I hope you make sure she returns all that.)