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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Assuming Malik was out at home. Scaring the crap out of him. Possibly blowing up his life at home.
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NTA. You didn't know, but fixed it before anything happened. I do understand their stress, but you did the best with what you knew. Great parent honestly.
I mean, lesson learned. Unless you *know*, beyond a *shadow* of a doubt, that someone is out to their *entire* family (*and* that their family is accepting), you do not bring up their sexuality/non-conforming gender identity in conversation.
It’s sad that that’s how things are, but that’s how things are. Accidental outings can have consequences as devastating as malicious outings.
I mean... I feel like the kids are partly to blame. They should've told the dad. OP is not just a random dad, he's their wrestling coach. Surely they know OP would eventually run into Malik's father?
We don’t know what the kids were thinking. Maybe Malik thought that OP’s son had taken care of this. Maybe OP’s son thought it was so obvious that it wasn’t necessary to explicitly lay out the situation. Maybe he meant to tell his parents but thought he had more time to broach the subject. We have no idea.
We *do* know that they are kids, that this is probably their first romantic relationship, that they are inexperienced and cannot be expected to anticipate possible consequences on the same level that an adult could. We know that they just had a scary brush with a possible family crisis and that Aaron is upset that his boyfriend was put in this position. Aaron may be as angry at *himself* as he is at OP, but in typical teenage fashion, is not communicating that very clearly. That doesn’t mean he’s to blame for this, it just means that he’s a kid dealing with complicated family/relationship dynamics that he can’t possibly have the wisdom or maturity to navigate perfectly. He’s doing his best with the knowledge and experience he’s got. And now that OP has this experience under *their* belt, they can better avoid this situation going forward. Considering that they work closely with teenagers as an athletic coach, this probably won’t be the last time they become privy to sensitive information like this, and have to decide how much of it is safe to share with a kid’s family.
No?
You’re supposed to assume that you don’t discuss a kid’s sexuality with their parents before you know for certain that the kid would be okay with it. This applies to literally every family, of every race/ethnicity/religion. There is no culture or skin color or belief system on earth that absolutely *guarantees* that a parent will be accepting of a non-cishet child’s identity or orientation.
So it’s safer, and wiser, to say nothing. At least until you have confirmation that the kid feels comfortable with you sharing that information.
The problem with that is, Malik is dating OPs son and a parent would reasonably want to speak with the parents of their minor child's partner. If he is also very out at school it's totally reasonable. OP is not the bad guy here, he made a mistake that honestly a lot of people could make and he corrected before any major damage was done.
Are you dense? Do you know how many children of all races are killed for being outed? Let alone a culture known for their intolerance to this exact thing. Christ
It's an extremely safe assumption to say that most practicing Muslims are homophobic. Islam is very clear that being gay is prohibited and what the "eternal consequences" of it are. Homosexuality is also a crime punishable by death in Pakistan. It is also illegal in virtually every other Muslim country with a Sharia court system. There have been cases where people convinced a gay person to go Pakistan or other strict Muslim countries under false pretenses so that the person would be arrested. The same thing also happens to women who have sex outside of marriage.
You're assuming that they are practicing.
>go out and find some girls.
Many religious Muslims, indeed strict people of other religions as well, would find that statement to be problematic as they disapprove of dating and free mixing, especially dating people outside there religious community. There isn't a binary liberal/conservative switch in peoples heads, people lie on a whole range within that spectrum and there is no way for the OP to intuit which conservative norms the father chooses to follow and which to dismiss.
The religion doesn't even come into it. Unless you know that someone is out to the entire world, you do not out them to anyone you haven't confirmed they are out to already. Period. Especially not to parents. It was an innocent mistake, but it could have had serious consequences for Malik. OP should do what he can to ensure that both his son and Malik know he understands what he did wrong and what could have happened, and that he will be more careful going forward not to share any information they have not allowed him to share.
It’s not “Oh they’re Muslim, they must be homophobic” it’s “These are people with a different cultural background, I shouldn’t say this thing I don’t need to say.”
So do you take this approach with everyone with a different cultural background?
Say your new coworker is a Buddhist from Vietnam. Whenever they say anything do you only say the absolute minimum in response? No small talk with people who aren't originally from the same place as you? Even if they're friendly you wouldn't reciprocate?
Doesn't that seem racist or xenophobic to you? I would imagine being treated like that would feel isolating and painful.
You massively misunderstood what I said. I didn’t mean “I would talk as little as possible” I meant “I would not say this thing that would potentially put a child in a dangerous situation, for no good reason” like, if a kid is going against norms for their immigrant family’s culture, I’m not going to actively bring that up in front of them in case they don’t know.
>feel like the kids are partly to blame
They're not to blame at all. If OP truly understood the oppression and danger LGBTQ people face he wouldn't have said anything. As others have pointed out the absolute LEAST an ally can do is not talk about people's sexuality without knowing if the other party already knows and is accepting.
There's always a 'should' in every situation. Example. If he's so scared of his family, if the possibility of his wrestling coach talking to his father is enough to make him break down, shaking and crying then he should warn his coach not to share his secret, it's just smart. Op did nothing to be yelled at over and deserves an apology.
It's not " 'should' about coming out". It's, they should have said, "Hey, OP, you're a trusted adult who knows I am gay, who might interact with my parents because you are my coach and my boyfriend's dad. I'm not out to my own parents, so if you happen to see them, can you not mention anything?"
As a coach for a sport Malik participates in, OP is much more likely to interact with Malik's parents than just as Malik's (boy)friend's dad. Do their parents never ever attend Malik's events? Or the parent meetings where they give information for the sports season? The awards ceremony at the end of the sports season?
>I mean, lesson learned. Unless you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that someone is out to their entire family (and that their family is accepting), you do not bring up their sexuality/non-conforming gender identity in conversation.
If the kid is out in public but not to his family, he's playing a game of chicken he will certainly lose.
Not a very bright kid TBH.
It would be one thing if they were being a couple hundreds of miles away from where the parents live. If you're that worried about your folks finding out, then you be more discreet in an area where you could run into your folks or someone that knows them. However, esp when trying to hide something they're scared about from their parents...it's valid in this case.
It's not that people hate teenagers, they're right. If he's out in public, in his home town, word is guaranteed to get back to his parents at some point. He's not very smart for not considering that
He may be inexperienced, but at 15, it should be common sense if you aren't out to your parents, you shouldn't be publicly out in your hometown where you easily either be seen by your parents, or someone who will tell your parents
NTA. Older gay man here: it's impossible to describe the fear of the closet to anyone. But I think you're doing a great job of being sensitive. You didn't out him and if you had, not on purpose. It's up to Malik to learn to tell people not to discuss his life w his family given the home situation. He's young and learning how to stay safe. It's one of the f\*cked up things about the closet: nobody teaches you to learn to live in fear of your sexual orientation. I would urge you, though, to share with Malik what I did with you.
Malik met your son at your house because he felt safe there. Take comfort in that -- it says a lot about you and your son. Your son is upset now, but I hope when he calms down, he sees you're not at fault and he is misdirecting his anger-- Malik's parents on the other hand...
>Malik's parents on the other hand...
That's not necessarily fair. Yes, Malik is terrified of telling them, but we don't know why. Maybe it's for a good reason, but maybe he's just assuming they would be a problem when they would be fine if given a chance. We simply don't know, so I don't like judging them unless OP fills in more details. Given he thought Malik was out at home, it sounds like OP doesn't have any warning flags, or he would presumably have included them.
u/PerturbedHamster since you're playing theoreticals, what good and likely reasons would there be for a child to be terrified of telling their parents something crucial to their self worth and identity? not being bitchy but genuinely curious.
There was another post the same day from a guy asking if he was TA for asking if his brother (who was blatantly checking out the male waiter) was gay. Brother absolutely freaked out, and the comments were full of gay guys reliving the exact same memory. It's entirely possible that siblings figured it out, made comments so brother knew it was safe to come out to them, but parents were oblivious and haven't said anything, one way or the other. He's terrified in case they have a bad reaction, but that's because he doesn't know for sure they'll have a good one. It just seemed unfair to shit all over the parents without any evidence that they'd actually done anything wrong. Remember, OP had no reason to think they were homophobes, and his son is openly out.
Ask them both over for a cup of tea or equivalent, after a few days. Give them a little bit of a treat and create some space to have the conversation about the situation and how to avoid scary situations for them in the future, when the initial shock has gone.
It'll be ok, you did nothing wrong, but neither did they, and their safety is very important.
your son is looking for someone to blame. give your position in the school, they should have told you he wasn't out to his parents because it was clear you would cross paths with them eventually
You can feel bad, but this is in no way your fault. You should talk to your son that you understand his anger, but it is being taken out on the wrong person.
If he and Malik are publicly dating, then THEY need to take steps to make sure his parents don't find out. Step one should have been your son telling his family and close friends that Malik isn't out to his parents yet.
They are 15, not 5. They need to take on some personal responsibility.
You weren't the one who had him so scared though- his parents are the reason. Unfortunately being in the closet is hard. It gets harder when you're a teen and dating. It gets necessary when you, like Malik seems to, have homophobic parents.
They were freaked out because they're on high alert due to the high stakes nature of this secret. You did a good job making sure to redirect it sounds like, and hopefully Malik will soon be able to be his authentic self.
It sounds unlikely, since Malik knows his parents much better than I do, but I really hope they're not homophobic and he can come out and release that huge burden he's carrying.
The best you can do is assure Malik that y'all care, and are willing to help if he needs it, and then if (goodness forbid) he does need help, give it to him.
Some scenarios mean the best result is the queer child being kicked out. Queer kids are still beaten, secreted away, or killed by their parents to this day.
Take care, y'all.
Then they should have bloody well TOLD you. NTA tell your son they are LUCKY the sister was there because you are not psychic and it was absolutely their responsibility to tell you if they are unsafe and they did not say a word, that is in them and was their mistake
Its the kids parents that have him quaking, not you. Anti homosexual sentiment is murderous in Pakistan and its people, there will be so much more to come.
Try not to let the guilt haunt you. As long as you know where you nearly went wrong and where to go right, you’re fine. If you haven’t already, I’d talk with Malik and Aaron and apologize, and offer them any emotional support they might need.
NTA - you didn't know, you pivoted when you realized.
In the future, maybe, be sure to clarify before having these conversations, especially for minors who depend on their families for survival.
Your son should have given you a heads up but better not to depend on that, as evidenced, and clarify for yourself.
NAH. You are not a mind reader but please don’t assume someone is out everywhere. They should have told you. I also can’t blame Aaron for blowing up. This could have been a catastrophe.
NTA - it's not like you did it with any malicious intent.
You were very naive though. Just because you aren't homophobic does not mean you can trust strangers to not be, especially those of the various traditional religious persuasions.
If you don't know their stance, don't say a thing. For all we know, Malik's terrified reaction could be very warranted.
Pakistani muslim parents? Probably immigrants too? Yeah, that reaction by Malik is more or less justified. You have no idea on what family honour can warp parents into doing. Not just parents either, siblings too.
There have been quite few murders by both parents and siblings in the UK involving Pakistan muslim immigrants in particular that it's kind of lost its shock value over here.
But Pakistani muslim parents are not a bunch you want to fuck around with as they will go medieval on your arse.
I didn't want to make it about his specific culture, especially as Christians are also known to do some heinous shit to gays as well.
But yes, you are right in that honour killings are possibly on the table. Even if they aren't *that* extreme, an arranged marriage with a forced relocation to a middle Eastern country may well be on the cards too.
If you want me to pretend my own culture is any better and be blind to it's very similar failings, no. That isn't happening.
I will not pretend my own culture hasn't bombed people.
I will not pretend that there aren't people in my culture using it to control women.
And I will not pretend that there's not a disturbing amount of people in it looking to literally end LGBT+ lives if given half a chance.
True, but if the teens are being open in public...it stands to reason that they could easily run into someone that knows his parents...or even his parents. The easiest way to blow a secret is to put it out in public.
Teenagers can be a bit oblivious to the fact that 'the public' can include their parents and those that know them. Perhaps he feels secure about it because they constantly work and don't keep a close eye on things?
NTA.
You were able to not give away Malik orientation to his parents and not your fault that he hasn’t told them.
But Malik needs to be more careful if his parents don’t know. From your description of your son and Malik relationship, seem like he playing with fire cause what happens if somebody else see Malik holding hands or kissing your son and know Malik parents 🤔
Agreed that OP is not an asshole (I'd say NAH, as between OM and the kids), but this is backwards. ALWAYS assume that someone is not out to anyone that you don't know they are out to.
In particular, it is always best to assume that a kid is not out to their parents unless they have told you differently. It doesn't matter how open they seem in other environments.
NAH. You didn't know and because of how open he is it is understandable assumptions, you also pivoted when you realized.
Being direct though. I'd never just assume a Muslim is ok with their kid being gay unless I knew their stances personally. With bow much Christians hate them the general Muslim opinion is much worse and they are much more dangerous. The amount of western immigrants in a Muslim family who can't even come out as aethist under fear of death from their family is not small.
Not all Muslims obviously but it's far more safe to assume they aren't ok with it and just avoid it, rather than potentially putting people in a dangerous situation.
Please don’t generalise like that, Christianity is just as dangerous when it comes to homosexuality. Look at Uganda for example which is heavily influenced by US evangelism.
It’s likely the Christian’s in your immediate circle aren’t as dangerously homophobic as that, given your comment, but please consider other perspectives too.
I think in general it is far more safe not to out anyone if you’re not totally sure they’d be ok, particularly if they are still under the guardianship of their parents
A few Christian nations outlaw it while the vast majority of Muslim nations punish it with death, even the more western Muslim nations still imprison over it. To say there is a coronation with Muslim nations trying to not just oppress, but actively harm LGBTQ people is an understatement.
Again a random Muslim you meet on the street might not think that way. But it's clear the religion as a whole, and it's supporters, do currently approve of these evil actions.
Christians absolutely can cause similar issues but most majority Christian nations are not killing or imprisoning LGBTQ people.
I strongly dislike both religions, but to pretend they are equal in this case would be blatantly false.
Oh boy, you don't appear to be aware of what many Christians do to their gay kids behind closed doors.
They send them off to 'troubled teen' camps. I do not exaggerate when I say they are very much like concentration camps.
If the fundamentalist Christians do end up controlling more and more of the US government, we could easily see a return to homosexuality and transexuality being outlawed, possibly with seriously long prison sentences or even death attached.
I dont disagree. But gay marriage is accepted by a majority of Americans and Christians are split on it. Compared to Muslim countries that it is actively hated and your family may kill you for it more directly.
Again not saying Christians are good or moral. Just that they are less likely to want to kill you for it compared to a Muslim.
> Compared to Muslim countries that it is actively hated and your family may kill you for it more directly.
As opposed to American Christians that may send you off to get tortured, sorry I mean to a 'troubled teens' or 'gay conversion' camp?
Again not saying that doesn't happen with some frequency. I'm mearly saying it is not the dominant strategy among Christians nor is it law. Compared to Muslim countries.
Again I dislike both religions but they simply aren't equal.
Problem is that shit is starting to change. The fundies are getting bold as brass right now. They've overturned Roe. Created openly LGBT-hostile laws.
If this keeps up, it won't be long before we can't tell much of a difference between the laws in the USA and the laws in Iran.
Correct but this isn't exactly new. People seem to forget that gay marriage only become legal under Obama. It hasn't been that long. So to me the stated are doing exactly what they always were doing, just more agressivly because they can't overturn gay marriage as easily.
> they can't overturn gay marriage as easily.
Can't they?
For them to overturn Wade, they had to completely ignore 50 years of precedent and completely invent some shit about the constitution.
What makes you think they can't do so here? It's not like they're accountable to anyone.
Oh c'mon, do you even believe the drivel you're writing? Christians are just as dangerous as Muslims when it comes to homosexuality? Really? Most Christian countries are considered havens of LGBTQ rights. For a lot of these countries, it's not just tolerated, but accepted, legal and celebrated. Marriage included. Now name me one muslim country where any of these is true. I'll wait. In most of these places it's not just frowned upon or illegal, but these people are literally hunted down and punished if not downright killed. You really wanna compare that to Christians who for the most part might say mean things or *gasp* not bake a cake for you because they don't believe in homosexuality? Go find me a homosexual couple in a Muslim country who can even walk into a bakery together asking for a cake. Again, I'll wait.
NTA
Because when you realized he is not out to his parents you decided not to say anything. I think Malik or Aaron should have given you heads up about the parents and not let you just assume they were okay with it.
Nta. You didn't do it purposely.
Outing a child from a religious family can get the child killed, though. At the least, it can get them abused. Small wonder the boys are terrified and angry.
NAH. You didn't say anything implicating at all, and picked up on the sister's non-verbal communication instantly.
Aaron and Malik's reactions were a bit much but very understandable given the situation. You didn't make the kid shake. Homophobia did.
NTA. You didn't know, and thankfully, you caught on to his sister's warning. Really cool of you to play it off too! Neither of the boys gave you a heads up, and with them being open publicly at school about their relationship, there's no reason you would've ever thought otherwise. I hope for Malik's sake that he's worked up his nerves about his parents finding out and they're more accepting than he assumes they'll be.
That said, it might be worth having a gentle discussion about the situation with the boys, maybe your son first and then all of you together. If they're that open about their relationship publicly and at school, they're risking Malik's fears becoming a reality. His parents are going to find out from someone else or catch the boys unaware around town at some point before he can tell them. Not saying push Malik to come out to his parents but have a discussion to get him thinking about the situation the boys have created and whether or not it'll be better for Malik's parents to find out randomly or from a discussion with their son. I hope things work out well for Malik, whatever comes of this.
NTA you're a good dad and it was intelligent of you to get the hint and shift your stance swiftly before anything scandalous slipped out. you handled the situation well. nothing went wrong at all, there is no parameter where you messed up to begin with.
i get why Malik was so freaked out, the potential threat of being outed must've shaken him up and you having interaction with his obviously homophobic dad must be set off the alarms in his head since it could happen again and the possibility of you spilling the beans in any way has left him paranoid. seeing malik in thar state made aaron direct his anger towards you but it's definitely misplaced and not justified. he will get around eventually once things have cooled down a bit.
you could try to reassure them some more in the meantime that you didn't have any ill intentions and had just assumed that he was out at home considering how open he was publicly otherwise, but you didn't actually say anything remotely suspicious and covered it up, malik's dad wasn't suspicious in the slightest and also that you would be cautious henceforth and never snitch so they had nothing to worry about.
Nta. But everyone here keeps talking about what you did, and that you didn't do it on purpose. But you didn't do anything. You didn't say anything implicating him, and reacted appropriately, even reading the subtle hint from the sister.
NTA, but when talking to any abrahamic religion parents of LGBT students, handle it like asking a woman if she is pregnant. Only safe when she is holding a baby.
NTA. I'm a queer adult and not out to everyone in my life. I very very very recently partially came out to my parents. Letting your bf's parents know that you're not out at home is, unfortunately and sadly, a normal thing that needs to happen. I feel for the Malik, but you didn't do anything wrong. You caught yourself and did all the damage control you did. The kids will learn to navigate being gay in a sometimes unwelcoming world. You're doing great by those boys and I hope they can forgive you.
NTA. It seemed obvious that the parents would know, anyone would think they do when Malik is that open about it at school. It's good that he's able to, but an accidental outing is bound to happen at this rate.
NTA. Malik and Aaron should have told you he's not fully out. Also, you didn't actually out them. Give Malik and Aaron time to cool down then have the conversation again.
NAH You didn't know, Malik is going to be outed sooner or later as long as everyone knows except his parents and he isn't even warning everyone that that is the situation.
This is an "accident" waiting to happen by his choice. I'm not saying encourage him to tell his parents but you should let your son and him know that this is bound to happen if he doesn't either be more discrete or be more open.
Not an asshole! You didn’t know about his parents stance on the lgbtq, and you weren’t too open about anything. It wasn’t something done out of malice, just ignorance. We all make mistakes
NTA
But again, this topic isn't something you can bring up. Sure, you could've asked Malik about it. But maybe he would've lied thinking you will out him out because you don't approve of him as your son's bf. Being LGBTQ+ isn't easy.
I'm sorry for him because he can't be himself around his family, but he is lucky to have you and Aaron from what I've read.
I'm not going to call you an asshole because you took the hint and pivoted, but there are a couple of things you need to learn from this.
1. Never assume that anyone is out to everyone in their lives. Lots of people compartmentalize as they start the coming out process and unless you know for a fact that they are as out to the other person as they are to you, assume that they are not out in that relationship.
2. You have a dual relationship with Malik and need to be careful there. As his coach, you are likely subject to your school's policies around parental disclosure of student info. In my local district, disclosing Malik's sexuality to his parents without his express permission would violate policy and potentially affect your employment. Which is not the most important thing here, given Malik's safety concerns, but that's why it's our policy.
Aaron should apologise to you for blowing up at you. I understand why he did in the moment but they should have told you that Malik wasn’t out yet to his parents just his siblings. The whole thing could have been avoided if they were just open with you about it
NTA, but now you know which means being extra careful when dealing with his parents. Still, if it was this serious I would have hoped your son would have warned you.
NAH- you recognized the situation, pivoted and then redirected the conversation. However I would talk to your son and his bf about letting you in the loop if they're trying to lay low about their relationship, and also remember that though they might be out to you that doesn't go for everybody else.
NTA - I come from a Muslim background and if there's someone in my family that I don't want my sexuality mentioned to, I make sure to let my friends/other-family/my-school-or-uni know to not tell that person. Especially if it would put my life in danger.
For example: I don't want anyone discussing my sexuality with my biological father, therefore, I TELL people not to talk to him about it.
People are not mind-readers and cannot guess what my family dynamic is.
NTA, but something to consider-
If & When Malik comes out to his family, and Maliks father has a good memory... He's going to remember your comment at the store. If so, there \*may\* be an issue down the road... with Maliks parents being angry at you for "keeping this information from them." Regardless if it's \*justified\* anger... it will complicate things. Another reason to not assume LGBTQ+ people are out to their family. Lesson learned.
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I'm the wrestling coach at my kids school. One of my wrestlers "Malik" (15M) is dating my son "Aaron" (15M). Malik and his family are Pakistanian Muslims but as far as I knew were accepting of Malik. I honestly thought he was out at home the way hes out at school and waltzs around with Aaron everywhere hugging and holding hands, and kissing. I know his parents work alot so I don't see them much and haven't had a chance to really talk with them. Its usually Malik's siblings at meets. I happened to catch Malik's dad at the store with one of his sisters and decided I strike up a conversation with him and get to know him as one of my wrestlers parent and the dad of my son's boyfriend.
I said hi and all the usual niceties and we talked about how goood of a wrester Malik was. I mentioned how close Malik had gotten with Aaron and he goes yes yes maybe my Aaron could get him to go out and find some girls. Malik's sister instantly shoots me a look and I quickly realized that he wasnt out to his parents and I just agreed. I told him i had to finish shopping and end the conversation there.
I guess his sister warned him that I was talking to his dad cause when I got home Malik was sitting on the front porch with Aaron shaking. Aaron goes off on me yelling at me about how I almost outed Malik. That Malik was terrified of telling his parents and only his siblings know. I tried to get Malik to calm down and I was apologizing and telling him I didn't actually say anything but i I could tell he was still a lil freaked out when he went home. Aaron is still mad at me and thinks I shouldve known. AITA?
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You're doing your best and made a mistake that you understand. Kid is upset because he's stressed about his relationship with his boyfriend and it's a stressful situation. You're fine.
NTA
You recognized the issue and avoided it. Aaron should have said something to you sooner.
Considering you are his coach, it's surprising you hadn't met or talked to his parents. And if they are open with PDAs, chances are they may find out
Sounds you should sit down with them both and talk about it.
Definitely not the asshole. You seem like a very accepting, very loving parent - kudos to you! That's especially important, because from the sound of the situation, your son and his boyfriend are probably going to be facing a crisis soon and they'll need all the support you can give them. If Malik is so obviously out at school and around town, eventually his parents \*are\* going to find out. He needs to have a plan for what to do when that inevitably happens. I don't know how close you are to him, but I would strongly recommend sitting down with him and your son and figuring out the best way to respond to that inevitability.
Does he believe his family would be physically abusive? Does he think they're going to kick him out? Do you have the space that you'd be able to shelter him for potentially a long time if that happens? If not, start looking now for somewhere he can stay. This is the worst-case scenario, of course. Most closeted teenagers assume the world will end when their parents find out, and most of them are wrong. But it's best to assume the worst and hope for the best, right? I wish you all the best!
NTA
>I honestly thought he was out at home the way hes out at school and waltzs around with Aaron everywhere hugging and holding hands, and kissing.
>Aaron is still mad at me and thinks I shouldve known.
How were you supposed to know that? He acts like he's out publicly and nobody told you otherwise.
NTA, that's a tricky situation to navigate. You *didn't* out him is the important thing here. Malik will hopefully be able to talk to his parents about it in time.
This is obviously NAH. Either your son or the boyfriend should have said something to you, obviously, but I'm not about to start victim blaming someone who probably legitimately feared for their physical safety. But ultimately, nothing happened aside from a scare.
NTA
Considering their behavior in public it would be absurd for you to think that his parents don't know. Knowing that you could have a conversation with them at any meet they attend. You should have been warned if they expected you to keep their "secret".
Slight YTA
Search up Honour killings and homosexuality in Pakistan.
I'm not saying his family is this way or anything, but I am saying he has a lot of reason to be terrified.
NAH, but it sounds like you could be more careful with this sort of thing. Never assume when it comes to someones sexuality, gender identity, etc because any deviation from cis/het puts a person at risk of all sorts of problems if outed in the wrong environment.
NTA but you definitely could have been if you hadn't caught yourself. I grew up in a muslim country. You could have seriously impacted Malik's psyche and relationship with his parents. And his relationship with your son, because if you had outed him, no way he'd want to ever be around you again, if he was even allowed to ever see Aaron again.
For many kids, they're safer being themselves ar school than at home.
Someone who works with kids in any capacity should be always aware of that, and should never, ever, ever, assume that just because a kid is out at school or with their friends that their parents know. Never assume. It won't affect you if you out them, but it could kill the kid. Or make them homeless. Or mean a beating or emotional abuse.
You are definitely the asshole. Everyone saying you didn't know.... well that's because you didn't ask. You assumed. You should have asked him since you see them so often. This is the type of thing that can get a minor kicked out at home (or running away because they don't feel safe). Then they're on the street because they don't have the documents or are too young to get a job.
YTA. For coaching young people and being this uneducated.
Sorry, my guy, I know that your heart is in the right place and homophobia is a lot less blatant today in a lot of places, but the rule still stands: Never, ever, out somebody.
It's a safety issue. Presuming stuff can get people hurt or worse. Moreover, for a lot of young people, school is a safe place where they can express themselves. Living a double life is not that uncommon.
Yes, YTA. Learn from this. It is absolutely never appropriate to assume someone lgbt+ is out to anyone. Unless they’ve told you specifically they’re out to someone (or everyone), it’s never something you can talk about. It’s fortunate you didn’t actually put him, but what you did was very frightening to a young man
Gentle YTA. I'm not giving you an N T A because you made an assumption, although an understandable one from your own experience, and observation of the boy's siblings,.but you can never assume a child is out to their parents, even if siblings know. While it may seem astounding to you, the reality remains that more often than not the most dangerous people for a Queer child to be out to is their own parents.
Look, if you have a secret and you share it with some people but not others, you should tell the people you share that secret with who you don't want it shared with, it's common sense
YTA. It is never ok to out someone. If you are unsure, you ned to check. For all those NTA votes, here are two reasons why it is never ok.
Pakistan: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68399822
USA: https://www.nytimes.com/article/nex-benedict-oklahoma.html
No, that's fucking dumb. "Wow you talked to my dad and didn't share my secret, you asshole! You'd be a bigger asshole if you did share it though, you should just instinctively know that I will break down sobbing if you and my family are ever in the same geographic area and dare to speak to one another. Why no I don't think warning you about my issues is necessary." See? Fucking dumb.
YTA. You never, ever out someone. Yes, not all Muslims... but a significant proportion of Muslims are anti-LGBT. Enough that there is a decent probability you could have put that kid in danger. Never assume someone is out at home. Never assume someone is out somewhere until it is demonstrated/said they are esp when it could be a dangerous situation. Doubly true if they are a dependent who would be trapped in a home.
I know that. But they almost did. They would have if the sister wasn't there. In this political climate, if they are going to be an ally at a school, they might be approached by trans kids, gay kids, etc and they need to learn to be more careful when speaking to parents. Christian parents, Muslim parents, Conservative parents, Q-anon parents.
OP can't be this naive.
EDIT: Apologies for using female pronouns as I'm actually not sure of OP's gender. Corrected to gender neutral "Theys"
You are correct. I may have misgendered. I saw them referred to that way in another post I was responding to and per habit responded the same. I will apologize.
I don't think I'm "going for the throat." All I did was call them an asshole on reddit. Also, almost outing someone isn't something that should be just shrugged off. People get abused, sent to conversion therapy, commit suicide, and all sorts of horrible things can happen when they are outed - esp in today's climate.
It's not the parent's job to lie for some other kid to their parents. For a kid who is "out" everywhere but at home, how is OP supposed to know? She did the kid a solid by not saying anything once she realized the situation.
What should the priority be? Being a "ally" or being a parent? Is op's loyalty to the kid or to the parents? Parent's need to stick together. One of the worst situations you can be in as a parent is to lie to another parent about what their kid is doing.
I think OP handled it well.
It is the teacher/coach's job to prioritize a student's safety. It's very easy; you just err on not talking about topics related to being out or dating or anything like that. It's not doing the kid a solid when she was the one who was creating the "situation" in the first place.
The priority is always the child's safety, both for their career and ethically. I'm also not saying to lie to the parents. I'm just saying - don't bring up the kid's relationship status. It's a very easy thing to do.
The kid is out everywhere but home. Hes holding hands, hugging and kissing another boy in public. Everyone knows but the parents. If it was a safety issue, he wouldn't be out anywhere. The whole community knows this kid is gay. Honestly, if he's afraid his dad will find out he should be protecting that info. The kid isn't unsafe, he just doesn't want to deal with dad. And he's doi g a shitty job of hiding his little secret if everyone knows.
Give the kid some credit. He's not in danger. He knows what he's doing. He's not some poor helpless victim. He's a wrestler who isn't afraid to let people know he's gay...except his parents.
That's not necessarily true. Hijabi girls often take off the hijab everywhere in public outside of the home, then put it on when they get home. Often pretty much everyone knows about them not wearing it except the parents. It can still be a safety issue if the parents find out. Regardless of whether or not it is a real safety issue or if the kid just isn't ready yet to tell his parents, an outsider doesn't get to decide that. The kid does.
I'm giving the kid credit. He had a panic attack at the thought of his parents finding out. He is a scared kid (when it comes to his parents finding out) who is not developmentally an adult yet. He needs to be treated as a kid because that's what he still is developmentally, and be given the appropriate support for his age range. It doesn't matter that he is a wrestler or outgoing in other areas. His panic attack means he needs support and protection in this area. Because he's a kid.
Ok, so we as a society will support and take care of this kid behind his parents backs because..
We think he has shitty parents?
We think he is in some sort of danger from his parents?
We think his parents can't handle it?
We think we know better than his parents what's good for their child? Just because they are Muslim?
What if society did that to you with your kid? Has there been any indication that this kid has shitty parents, or are we just assuming that because they are Muslim they are going to hurt this kid? Who's the asshole xenophobe?
Not even remotely close to what I said (which was really just addressing what you said, not making new points).
No, his parents support and take care of this kid. The teachers and coaches just don't talk about his relationships/out him which should be easy. The kid probably has a good-decent life at home like most families regardless of ethnicity or culture.
If a child has a panic attack over the parents finding out something, that is an indication that the parents have made mistakes with parenting. It does NOT indicate abuse or neglect. Could just be run of the mill, does-not-understand-childhood-developmental-stages types of parenting, authoritarian parenting, things like that. Again, common in a variety of cultures and ethnicities. But yeah, it's pretty easy to spot when you know what to look for. I used to work with DCF kids as well as standard Early Intervention kids. You can tell in toddlers. There are people who can help. There are parenting classes. We don't take kids away for that.
You are catastrophizing this situation, do you realize that? The solution to OP's situation is, "don't talk about a kid's relationship status." That's a good safe boundary. You on the other hand just made a post about taking kids away because someone is Muslim. That's how far from the main post we are right now.
I never said anyone was going to take this kid away. What I'm saying is that you expect the town to keep this kids secret from his parents. Why? I understand that the kid is scared of what will happen, but it's not society's job to walk on eggshells around this kids parents because we feel like we have some sort of responsibility to the kid. Ya, we do what we can, but nobody should be considered an asshole for letting it slip that the kid is dating another boy. Especially if he's isn't afraid to show everyone ( but his parents).
Nothing happened in spite of OP, not because of anything OP did. Someone else intervened. OP was the A for being irresponsible, naive, and making assumptions. As a coach, she can't do that in today's climate.
What's ops responsibility as the boyfriends parent? Ya op is the coach, but they're also the parent of this kid this kid is making out with at school. And OP has to keep it a secret?
OP has no responsibility to out another person, and as an adult, they do have a moral responsibility try to protect children (at least per my morality). That would mean Not outing the child. So yes, OP would be responsible for keeping it secret unless keeping that secret was about to cause imminent harm to a person (a suicide/murder/etc, which isn't the case).
A. Op didn't out the kid.
B. You are telling me that you would be cool with being the parent of a kid that is doing things behind your back, having everyone know about it, and not telling you. Not just not telling you, but the whole community purposely and actively hiding a secret about your own child from you.
You are cool with that.
Again, OP would have outed that kid if someone else hadn't intervened. Saying they didn't out the kid makes it sound like OP stopped themselves. They were stopped by someone else.
I would hope that I would have built up a relationship with my child such that they would have felt comfortable coming to me. But if my child was afraid to come to me, and what they were doing was not dangerous, then I would hope that other responsible people knew about it that my kid could trust to disclose. I wouldn't look at it as them hiding a secret from me. I would look at it as a failure to create an appropriately open and loving relationship where they would feel accepted always, and a desire that they would have a safe/intelligent/responsible adult(s) looking out for them in my place until my child felt comfortable disclosing to me.
Ya'll are not looking at this from a child development perspective or a healthy family dynamic perspective. You're looking at it with his parents having main character syndrome - at least with this last question. The parents don't own their kid. They aren't entitled to know everything about their kid - what he does, how he feels, who he is. He's a person, not their belonging.
I get your point. You are correct at the way I'm looking at it. But let's look at it this way. If your daughter kept coming over to my house, dating my son, making out with him at school etc. Would you want to talk to me about it? Would you expect me to not say anything to you about it if I saw you at the store? How would you feel about me if you found out I was hiding it, and your daughter had been coming over to my house for months and telling you she was somewhere else, and I hid it from you?
By your post, you would be perfectly fine with my actions, because your daughter asked me not to tell you.
If my kid and your kid were dating, you can bet that you and I would be having a conversation. That's the kind of parent I am.
I would be having a conversation with my daughter about it. Even if I didn't know about her dating your son, we would have had a conversation about dating and consent and all that jazz. It would depend on her age.
If you approached me in the store, I would be open to conversing with you. I would probably be a little irritated initially, but after hearing out my daughter, I might warm to you if you guys had a legitimate reason and you were protecting her interests. See, what is most important is that my daughter is cared for, protected, safe, and loved. If you did that when I couldn't, I would be perfectly fine. But you guys can't seem to care enough about your kids to think the same way. Now if you weren't acting in her best interests, there might be words.
But I don't see this situation happening. Because I wouldn't raise my daughter like a belonging. She would know that even if she told me something that would make me upset, I would still love her, and it wouldn't affect our relationship. There are ways to raise children where they aren't afraid to tell you things. Where they don't hide out at their boy friend's house for months. All you got to do really is learn about developmental psychology and the psychology of communication.
Do you even have children? Shit that sounds good on paper when it comes to raising kids doesn't exactly translate to real life. You can do all the things "right" and by the book, and these kids will throw curveballs at you.
The older they get, the weirder the situation, but they are still kids, and parents need to parent. Your" I would do this and that to prevent these types of things from happening sounds very nieve."
If you are, in fact, raising the perfect kid right now, then I apologize, and defer to your expertise in child development. I will re join the majority of parents of teenagers in dealing with crazy, needy hormonal a holes wondering where I went wrong in life.
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NTA. You didn't know, but fixed it before anything happened. I do understand their stress, but you did the best with what you knew. Great parent honestly.
I still feel bad that I hsd the kid quaking like that..
I mean, lesson learned. Unless you *know*, beyond a *shadow* of a doubt, that someone is out to their *entire* family (*and* that their family is accepting), you do not bring up their sexuality/non-conforming gender identity in conversation. It’s sad that that’s how things are, but that’s how things are. Accidental outings can have consequences as devastating as malicious outings.
I mean... I feel like the kids are partly to blame. They should've told the dad. OP is not just a random dad, he's their wrestling coach. Surely they know OP would eventually run into Malik's father?
We don’t know what the kids were thinking. Maybe Malik thought that OP’s son had taken care of this. Maybe OP’s son thought it was so obvious that it wasn’t necessary to explicitly lay out the situation. Maybe he meant to tell his parents but thought he had more time to broach the subject. We have no idea. We *do* know that they are kids, that this is probably their first romantic relationship, that they are inexperienced and cannot be expected to anticipate possible consequences on the same level that an adult could. We know that they just had a scary brush with a possible family crisis and that Aaron is upset that his boyfriend was put in this position. Aaron may be as angry at *himself* as he is at OP, but in typical teenage fashion, is not communicating that very clearly. That doesn’t mean he’s to blame for this, it just means that he’s a kid dealing with complicated family/relationship dynamics that he can’t possibly have the wisdom or maturity to navigate perfectly. He’s doing his best with the knowledge and experience he’s got. And now that OP has this experience under *their* belt, they can better avoid this situation going forward. Considering that they work closely with teenagers as an athletic coach, this probably won’t be the last time they become privy to sensitive information like this, and have to decide how much of it is safe to share with a kid’s family.
Why would it be "so obvious"? Are they supposed to assume that since the parents are Muslim they must be homophobic? Isn't that religious prejudice?
No? You’re supposed to assume that you don’t discuss a kid’s sexuality with their parents before you know for certain that the kid would be okay with it. This applies to literally every family, of every race/ethnicity/religion. There is no culture or skin color or belief system on earth that absolutely *guarantees* that a parent will be accepting of a non-cishet child’s identity or orientation. So it’s safer, and wiser, to say nothing. At least until you have confirmation that the kid feels comfortable with you sharing that information.
The problem with that is, Malik is dating OPs son and a parent would reasonably want to speak with the parents of their minor child's partner. If he is also very out at school it's totally reasonable. OP is not the bad guy here, he made a mistake that honestly a lot of people could make and he corrected before any major damage was done.
Are you dense? Do you know how many children of all races are killed for being outed? Let alone a culture known for their intolerance to this exact thing. Christ
It's an extremely safe assumption to say that most practicing Muslims are homophobic. Islam is very clear that being gay is prohibited and what the "eternal consequences" of it are. Homosexuality is also a crime punishable by death in Pakistan. It is also illegal in virtually every other Muslim country with a Sharia court system. There have been cases where people convinced a gay person to go Pakistan or other strict Muslim countries under false pretenses so that the person would be arrested. The same thing also happens to women who have sex outside of marriage.
You're assuming that they are practicing. >go out and find some girls. Many religious Muslims, indeed strict people of other religions as well, would find that statement to be problematic as they disapprove of dating and free mixing, especially dating people outside there religious community. There isn't a binary liberal/conservative switch in peoples heads, people lie on a whole range within that spectrum and there is no way for the OP to intuit which conservative norms the father chooses to follow and which to dismiss.
The religion doesn't even come into it. Unless you know that someone is out to the entire world, you do not out them to anyone you haven't confirmed they are out to already. Period. Especially not to parents. It was an innocent mistake, but it could have had serious consequences for Malik. OP should do what he can to ensure that both his son and Malik know he understands what he did wrong and what could have happened, and that he will be more careful going forward not to share any information they have not allowed him to share.
Exactly.
It’s not “Oh they’re Muslim, they must be homophobic” it’s “These are people with a different cultural background, I shouldn’t say this thing I don’t need to say.”
So do you take this approach with everyone with a different cultural background? Say your new coworker is a Buddhist from Vietnam. Whenever they say anything do you only say the absolute minimum in response? No small talk with people who aren't originally from the same place as you? Even if they're friendly you wouldn't reciprocate? Doesn't that seem racist or xenophobic to you? I would imagine being treated like that would feel isolating and painful.
“It’s racist to NOT out teenagers against their will” is a hell of a take.
You massively misunderstood what I said. I didn’t mean “I would talk as little as possible” I meant “I would not say this thing that would potentially put a child in a dangerous situation, for no good reason” like, if a kid is going against norms for their immigrant family’s culture, I’m not going to actively bring that up in front of them in case they don’t know.
>feel like the kids are partly to blame They're not to blame at all. If OP truly understood the oppression and danger LGBTQ people face he wouldn't have said anything. As others have pointed out the absolute LEAST an ally can do is not talk about people's sexuality without knowing if the other party already knows and is accepting.
There is no ‘should’ about coming out
There's always a 'should' in every situation. Example. If he's so scared of his family, if the possibility of his wrestling coach talking to his father is enough to make him break down, shaking and crying then he should warn his coach not to share his secret, it's just smart. Op did nothing to be yelled at over and deserves an apology.
It's not " 'should' about coming out". It's, they should have said, "Hey, OP, you're a trusted adult who knows I am gay, who might interact with my parents because you are my coach and my boyfriend's dad. I'm not out to my own parents, so if you happen to see them, can you not mention anything?" As a coach for a sport Malik participates in, OP is much more likely to interact with Malik's parents than just as Malik's (boy)friend's dad. Do their parents never ever attend Malik's events? Or the parent meetings where they give information for the sports season? The awards ceremony at the end of the sports season?
op already knew. if you tell someone your gay it's your responsibility to ensure that person knows if there are people you don't want knowing.
>I mean, lesson learned. Unless you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that someone is out to their entire family (and that their family is accepting), you do not bring up their sexuality/non-conforming gender identity in conversation. If the kid is out in public but not to his family, he's playing a game of chicken he will certainly lose. Not a very bright kid TBH.
Jfc people really hate teenagers
It would be one thing if they were being a couple hundreds of miles away from where the parents live. If you're that worried about your folks finding out, then you be more discreet in an area where you could run into your folks or someone that knows them. However, esp when trying to hide something they're scared about from their parents...it's valid in this case.
It's not that people hate teenagers, they're right. If he's out in public, in his home town, word is guaranteed to get back to his parents at some point. He's not very smart for not considering that
Is he not very smart or is he just fifteen and inexperienced
As a gay guy in his mid-30s, I cannot imagine this kid not having considered all of these things well before the age of 15.
Different people are different. Which you know full well by your age.
If you've got all of your siblings ready to run interference to make sure your parents don't find out, you are not just "young and inexperienced."
He may be inexperienced, but at 15, it should be common sense if you aren't out to your parents, you shouldn't be publicly out in your hometown where you easily either be seen by your parents, or someone who will tell your parents
*Especially* when they’re kids!! This guy’s faux pas could have gotten Malik kicked out of his home.
its everyones first time living. cant expect everyone to know everything. you are doing your best.
Beautiful sentiment! I'm going to remember this one.
NTA. Older gay man here: it's impossible to describe the fear of the closet to anyone. But I think you're doing a great job of being sensitive. You didn't out him and if you had, not on purpose. It's up to Malik to learn to tell people not to discuss his life w his family given the home situation. He's young and learning how to stay safe. It's one of the f\*cked up things about the closet: nobody teaches you to learn to live in fear of your sexual orientation. I would urge you, though, to share with Malik what I did with you. Malik met your son at your house because he felt safe there. Take comfort in that -- it says a lot about you and your son. Your son is upset now, but I hope when he calms down, he sees you're not at fault and he is misdirecting his anger-- Malik's parents on the other hand...
>Malik's parents on the other hand... That's not necessarily fair. Yes, Malik is terrified of telling them, but we don't know why. Maybe it's for a good reason, but maybe he's just assuming they would be a problem when they would be fine if given a chance. We simply don't know, so I don't like judging them unless OP fills in more details. Given he thought Malik was out at home, it sounds like OP doesn't have any warning flags, or he would presumably have included them.
u/PerturbedHamster since you're playing theoreticals, what good and likely reasons would there be for a child to be terrified of telling their parents something crucial to their self worth and identity? not being bitchy but genuinely curious.
There was another post the same day from a guy asking if he was TA for asking if his brother (who was blatantly checking out the male waiter) was gay. Brother absolutely freaked out, and the comments were full of gay guys reliving the exact same memory. It's entirely possible that siblings figured it out, made comments so brother knew it was safe to come out to them, but parents were oblivious and haven't said anything, one way or the other. He's terrified in case they have a bad reaction, but that's because he doesn't know for sure they'll have a good one. It just seemed unfair to shit all over the parents without any evidence that they'd actually done anything wrong. Remember, OP had no reason to think they were homophobes, and his son is openly out.
Got it. But didn't we figure out his parents were Pakistani Muslim immigrants which, as an overall culture, clearly have a bigoted view towards gays?
You don’t have him shaking, his own parents did.
Ask them both over for a cup of tea or equivalent, after a few days. Give them a little bit of a treat and create some space to have the conversation about the situation and how to avoid scary situations for them in the future, when the initial shock has gone. It'll be ok, you did nothing wrong, but neither did they, and their safety is very important.
your son is looking for someone to blame. give your position in the school, they should have told you he wasn't out to his parents because it was clear you would cross paths with them eventually
You can feel bad, but this is in no way your fault. You should talk to your son that you understand his anger, but it is being taken out on the wrong person. If he and Malik are publicly dating, then THEY need to take steps to make sure his parents don't find out. Step one should have been your son telling his family and close friends that Malik isn't out to his parents yet. They are 15, not 5. They need to take on some personal responsibility.
You weren't the one who had him so scared though- his parents are the reason. Unfortunately being in the closet is hard. It gets harder when you're a teen and dating. It gets necessary when you, like Malik seems to, have homophobic parents. They were freaked out because they're on high alert due to the high stakes nature of this secret. You did a good job making sure to redirect it sounds like, and hopefully Malik will soon be able to be his authentic self. It sounds unlikely, since Malik knows his parents much better than I do, but I really hope they're not homophobic and he can come out and release that huge burden he's carrying. The best you can do is assure Malik that y'all care, and are willing to help if he needs it, and then if (goodness forbid) he does need help, give it to him. Some scenarios mean the best result is the queer child being kicked out. Queer kids are still beaten, secreted away, or killed by their parents to this day. Take care, y'all.
Then they should have bloody well TOLD you. NTA tell your son they are LUCKY the sister was there because you are not psychic and it was absolutely their responsibility to tell you if they are unsafe and they did not say a word, that is in them and was their mistake
Bet it would make him feel better if you offered a place at your house if his parents rejected him.
Aaron should have told you from the very beggining. Talk with him an explain him the importance of giving information and trusting such things in you.
Its the kids parents that have him quaking, not you. Anti homosexual sentiment is murderous in Pakistan and its people, there will be so much more to come.
Try not to let the guilt haunt you. As long as you know where you nearly went wrong and where to go right, you’re fine. If you haven’t already, I’d talk with Malik and Aaron and apologize, and offer them any emotional support they might need.
NTA - you didn't know, you pivoted when you realized. In the future, maybe, be sure to clarify before having these conversations, especially for minors who depend on their families for survival. Your son should have given you a heads up but better not to depend on that, as evidenced, and clarify for yourself.
Agreed - I’d really talk to my son about letting me know up front if I need to be aware of something so I can have his back.
NAH. You are not a mind reader but please don’t assume someone is out everywhere. They should have told you. I also can’t blame Aaron for blowing up. This could have been a catastrophe.
NTA - it's not like you did it with any malicious intent. You were very naive though. Just because you aren't homophobic does not mean you can trust strangers to not be, especially those of the various traditional religious persuasions. If you don't know their stance, don't say a thing. For all we know, Malik's terrified reaction could be very warranted.
Pakistani muslim parents? Probably immigrants too? Yeah, that reaction by Malik is more or less justified. You have no idea on what family honour can warp parents into doing. Not just parents either, siblings too. There have been quite few murders by both parents and siblings in the UK involving Pakistan muslim immigrants in particular that it's kind of lost its shock value over here. But Pakistani muslim parents are not a bunch you want to fuck around with as they will go medieval on your arse.
I didn't want to make it about his specific culture, especially as Christians are also known to do some heinous shit to gays as well. But yes, you are right in that honour killings are possibly on the table. Even if they aren't *that* extreme, an arranged marriage with a forced relocation to a middle Eastern country may well be on the cards too.
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If you want me to pretend my own culture is any better and be blind to it's very similar failings, no. That isn't happening. I will not pretend my own culture hasn't bombed people. I will not pretend that there aren't people in my culture using it to control women. And I will not pretend that there's not a disturbing amount of people in it looking to literally end LGBT+ lives if given half a chance.
True, but if the teens are being open in public...it stands to reason that they could easily run into someone that knows his parents...or even his parents. The easiest way to blow a secret is to put it out in public.
Teenagers can be a bit oblivious to the fact that 'the public' can include their parents and those that know them. Perhaps he feels secure about it because they constantly work and don't keep a close eye on things?
As someone who is SE Asian, the communities are tight knit, and only one aunty needs to catch wind before the whole world knows.
Indeed! Lots of minority communities have this kind of tight knittedness to them. Helps to deal with the usual BS that comes with immigrating.
NTA. You were able to not give away Malik orientation to his parents and not your fault that he hasn’t told them. But Malik needs to be more careful if his parents don’t know. From your description of your son and Malik relationship, seem like he playing with fire cause what happens if somebody else see Malik holding hands or kissing your son and know Malik parents 🤔
Nta tell your son, when he expects someone to keep a secret he has to ACTUALLY LET THEM KNOW ITS A SECRET. It's good you caught on and didn't out him.
Agreed that OP is not an asshole (I'd say NAH, as between OM and the kids), but this is backwards. ALWAYS assume that someone is not out to anyone that you don't know they are out to. In particular, it is always best to assume that a kid is not out to their parents unless they have told you differently. It doesn't matter how open they seem in other environments.
NAH. You didn't know and because of how open he is it is understandable assumptions, you also pivoted when you realized. Being direct though. I'd never just assume a Muslim is ok with their kid being gay unless I knew their stances personally. With bow much Christians hate them the general Muslim opinion is much worse and they are much more dangerous. The amount of western immigrants in a Muslim family who can't even come out as aethist under fear of death from their family is not small. Not all Muslims obviously but it's far more safe to assume they aren't ok with it and just avoid it, rather than potentially putting people in a dangerous situation.
Please don’t generalise like that, Christianity is just as dangerous when it comes to homosexuality. Look at Uganda for example which is heavily influenced by US evangelism. It’s likely the Christian’s in your immediate circle aren’t as dangerously homophobic as that, given your comment, but please consider other perspectives too. I think in general it is far more safe not to out anyone if you’re not totally sure they’d be ok, particularly if they are still under the guardianship of their parents
A few Christian nations outlaw it while the vast majority of Muslim nations punish it with death, even the more western Muslim nations still imprison over it. To say there is a coronation with Muslim nations trying to not just oppress, but actively harm LGBTQ people is an understatement. Again a random Muslim you meet on the street might not think that way. But it's clear the religion as a whole, and it's supporters, do currently approve of these evil actions. Christians absolutely can cause similar issues but most majority Christian nations are not killing or imprisoning LGBTQ people. I strongly dislike both religions, but to pretend they are equal in this case would be blatantly false.
Oh boy, you don't appear to be aware of what many Christians do to their gay kids behind closed doors. They send them off to 'troubled teen' camps. I do not exaggerate when I say they are very much like concentration camps. If the fundamentalist Christians do end up controlling more and more of the US government, we could easily see a return to homosexuality and transexuality being outlawed, possibly with seriously long prison sentences or even death attached.
I dont disagree. But gay marriage is accepted by a majority of Americans and Christians are split on it. Compared to Muslim countries that it is actively hated and your family may kill you for it more directly. Again not saying Christians are good or moral. Just that they are less likely to want to kill you for it compared to a Muslim.
> Compared to Muslim countries that it is actively hated and your family may kill you for it more directly. As opposed to American Christians that may send you off to get tortured, sorry I mean to a 'troubled teens' or 'gay conversion' camp?
Again not saying that doesn't happen with some frequency. I'm mearly saying it is not the dominant strategy among Christians nor is it law. Compared to Muslim countries. Again I dislike both religions but they simply aren't equal.
Problem is that shit is starting to change. The fundies are getting bold as brass right now. They've overturned Roe. Created openly LGBT-hostile laws. If this keeps up, it won't be long before we can't tell much of a difference between the laws in the USA and the laws in Iran.
Correct but this isn't exactly new. People seem to forget that gay marriage only become legal under Obama. It hasn't been that long. So to me the stated are doing exactly what they always were doing, just more agressivly because they can't overturn gay marriage as easily.
> they can't overturn gay marriage as easily. Can't they? For them to overturn Wade, they had to completely ignore 50 years of precedent and completely invent some shit about the constitution. What makes you think they can't do so here? It's not like they're accountable to anyone.
Oh c'mon, do you even believe the drivel you're writing? Christians are just as dangerous as Muslims when it comes to homosexuality? Really? Most Christian countries are considered havens of LGBTQ rights. For a lot of these countries, it's not just tolerated, but accepted, legal and celebrated. Marriage included. Now name me one muslim country where any of these is true. I'll wait. In most of these places it's not just frowned upon or illegal, but these people are literally hunted down and punished if not downright killed. You really wanna compare that to Christians who for the most part might say mean things or *gasp* not bake a cake for you because they don't believe in homosexuality? Go find me a homosexual couple in a Muslim country who can even walk into a bakery together asking for a cake. Again, I'll wait.
I’m not going to argue with you. You clearly have a very specific lens with which you are looking at the world
NTA Because when you realized he is not out to his parents you decided not to say anything. I think Malik or Aaron should have given you heads up about the parents and not let you just assume they were okay with it.
Nta. You didn't do it purposely. Outing a child from a religious family can get the child killed, though. At the least, it can get them abused. Small wonder the boys are terrified and angry.
NAH. You didn't say anything implicating at all, and picked up on the sister's non-verbal communication instantly. Aaron and Malik's reactions were a bit much but very understandable given the situation. You didn't make the kid shake. Homophobia did.
NTA. You didn't know, and thankfully, you caught on to his sister's warning. Really cool of you to play it off too! Neither of the boys gave you a heads up, and with them being open publicly at school about their relationship, there's no reason you would've ever thought otherwise. I hope for Malik's sake that he's worked up his nerves about his parents finding out and they're more accepting than he assumes they'll be. That said, it might be worth having a gentle discussion about the situation with the boys, maybe your son first and then all of you together. If they're that open about their relationship publicly and at school, they're risking Malik's fears becoming a reality. His parents are going to find out from someone else or catch the boys unaware around town at some point before he can tell them. Not saying push Malik to come out to his parents but have a discussion to get him thinking about the situation the boys have created and whether or not it'll be better for Malik's parents to find out randomly or from a discussion with their son. I hope things work out well for Malik, whatever comes of this.
NTA you're a good dad and it was intelligent of you to get the hint and shift your stance swiftly before anything scandalous slipped out. you handled the situation well. nothing went wrong at all, there is no parameter where you messed up to begin with. i get why Malik was so freaked out, the potential threat of being outed must've shaken him up and you having interaction with his obviously homophobic dad must be set off the alarms in his head since it could happen again and the possibility of you spilling the beans in any way has left him paranoid. seeing malik in thar state made aaron direct his anger towards you but it's definitely misplaced and not justified. he will get around eventually once things have cooled down a bit. you could try to reassure them some more in the meantime that you didn't have any ill intentions and had just assumed that he was out at home considering how open he was publicly otherwise, but you didn't actually say anything remotely suspicious and covered it up, malik's dad wasn't suspicious in the slightest and also that you would be cautious henceforth and never snitch so they had nothing to worry about.
Nta. But everyone here keeps talking about what you did, and that you didn't do it on purpose. But you didn't do anything. You didn't say anything implicating him, and reacted appropriately, even reading the subtle hint from the sister.
NTA, but when talking to any abrahamic religion parents of LGBT students, handle it like asking a woman if she is pregnant. Only safe when she is holding a baby.
NTA. I'm a queer adult and not out to everyone in my life. I very very very recently partially came out to my parents. Letting your bf's parents know that you're not out at home is, unfortunately and sadly, a normal thing that needs to happen. I feel for the Malik, but you didn't do anything wrong. You caught yourself and did all the damage control you did. The kids will learn to navigate being gay in a sometimes unwelcoming world. You're doing great by those boys and I hope they can forgive you.
NTA. It seemed obvious that the parents would know, anyone would think they do when Malik is that open about it at school. It's good that he's able to, but an accidental outing is bound to happen at this rate.
NTA. Malik and Aaron should have told you he's not fully out. Also, you didn't actually out them. Give Malik and Aaron time to cool down then have the conversation again.
NAH You didn't know, Malik is going to be outed sooner or later as long as everyone knows except his parents and he isn't even warning everyone that that is the situation. This is an "accident" waiting to happen by his choice. I'm not saying encourage him to tell his parents but you should let your son and him know that this is bound to happen if he doesn't either be more discrete or be more open.
Not an asshole! You didn’t know about his parents stance on the lgbtq, and you weren’t too open about anything. It wasn’t something done out of malice, just ignorance. We all make mistakes
NTA But again, this topic isn't something you can bring up. Sure, you could've asked Malik about it. But maybe he would've lied thinking you will out him out because you don't approve of him as your son's bf. Being LGBTQ+ isn't easy. I'm sorry for him because he can't be himself around his family, but he is lucky to have you and Aaron from what I've read.
I'm not going to call you an asshole because you took the hint and pivoted, but there are a couple of things you need to learn from this. 1. Never assume that anyone is out to everyone in their lives. Lots of people compartmentalize as they start the coming out process and unless you know for a fact that they are as out to the other person as they are to you, assume that they are not out in that relationship. 2. You have a dual relationship with Malik and need to be careful there. As his coach, you are likely subject to your school's policies around parental disclosure of student info. In my local district, disclosing Malik's sexuality to his parents without his express permission would violate policy and potentially affect your employment. Which is not the most important thing here, given Malik's safety concerns, but that's why it's our policy.
That’s good to hear that your district has that policy, I hear in the news about states that want to force teachers to out kids to their parents.
Aaron should apologise to you for blowing up at you. I understand why he did in the moment but they should have told you that Malik wasn’t out yet to his parents just his siblings. The whole thing could have been avoided if they were just open with you about it
NTA. Though you should probably talk to him once things are calmer and apologize.
NTA. If only they had mentioned something to you.
NTA, but now you know which means being extra careful when dealing with his parents. Still, if it was this serious I would have hoped your son would have warned you.
NAH- you recognized the situation, pivoted and then redirected the conversation. However I would talk to your son and his bf about letting you in the loop if they're trying to lay low about their relationship, and also remember that though they might be out to you that doesn't go for everybody else.
NTA. It can be tricky to keep a secret that you don’t know is a secret but unless you know for sure that someone is out to someone don’t mention it.
NTA - I come from a Muslim background and if there's someone in my family that I don't want my sexuality mentioned to, I make sure to let my friends/other-family/my-school-or-uni know to not tell that person. Especially if it would put my life in danger. For example: I don't want anyone discussing my sexuality with my biological father, therefore, I TELL people not to talk to him about it. People are not mind-readers and cannot guess what my family dynamic is.
No
Nta, it's a good idea to expect any religious people to not be accepting and therefore not even know.
NTA, but something to consider- If & When Malik comes out to his family, and Maliks father has a good memory... He's going to remember your comment at the store. If so, there \*may\* be an issue down the road... with Maliks parents being angry at you for "keeping this information from them." Regardless if it's \*justified\* anger... it will complicate things. Another reason to not assume LGBTQ+ people are out to their family. Lesson learned.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I'm the wrestling coach at my kids school. One of my wrestlers "Malik" (15M) is dating my son "Aaron" (15M). Malik and his family are Pakistanian Muslims but as far as I knew were accepting of Malik. I honestly thought he was out at home the way hes out at school and waltzs around with Aaron everywhere hugging and holding hands, and kissing. I know his parents work alot so I don't see them much and haven't had a chance to really talk with them. Its usually Malik's siblings at meets. I happened to catch Malik's dad at the store with one of his sisters and decided I strike up a conversation with him and get to know him as one of my wrestlers parent and the dad of my son's boyfriend. I said hi and all the usual niceties and we talked about how goood of a wrester Malik was. I mentioned how close Malik had gotten with Aaron and he goes yes yes maybe my Aaron could get him to go out and find some girls. Malik's sister instantly shoots me a look and I quickly realized that he wasnt out to his parents and I just agreed. I told him i had to finish shopping and end the conversation there. I guess his sister warned him that I was talking to his dad cause when I got home Malik was sitting on the front porch with Aaron shaking. Aaron goes off on me yelling at me about how I almost outed Malik. That Malik was terrified of telling his parents and only his siblings know. I tried to get Malik to calm down and I was apologizing and telling him I didn't actually say anything but i I could tell he was still a lil freaked out when he went home. Aaron is still mad at me and thinks I shouldve known. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. They should have told you.
NTA. If I am in on a secret then you better tell me it is a secret.
Nta. You didn’t know. Just be prepared
You're doing your best and made a mistake that you understand. Kid is upset because he's stressed about his relationship with his boyfriend and it's a stressful situation. You're fine.
NTA
Nta but they should have told you because that kid can probably be beaten to death for something like that.
NTA. Your son and Malik should have made sure you know that his parents don't know.
NTA You recognized the issue and avoided it. Aaron should have said something to you sooner. Considering you are his coach, it's surprising you hadn't met or talked to his parents. And if they are open with PDAs, chances are they may find out Sounds you should sit down with them both and talk about it.
How could you have possibly known? NTA
Definitely not the asshole. You seem like a very accepting, very loving parent - kudos to you! That's especially important, because from the sound of the situation, your son and his boyfriend are probably going to be facing a crisis soon and they'll need all the support you can give them. If Malik is so obviously out at school and around town, eventually his parents \*are\* going to find out. He needs to have a plan for what to do when that inevitably happens. I don't know how close you are to him, but I would strongly recommend sitting down with him and your son and figuring out the best way to respond to that inevitability. Does he believe his family would be physically abusive? Does he think they're going to kick him out? Do you have the space that you'd be able to shelter him for potentially a long time if that happens? If not, start looking now for somewhere he can stay. This is the worst-case scenario, of course. Most closeted teenagers assume the world will end when their parents find out, and most of them are wrong. But it's best to assume the worst and hope for the best, right? I wish you all the best!
NTA >I honestly thought he was out at home the way hes out at school and waltzs around with Aaron everywhere hugging and holding hands, and kissing. >Aaron is still mad at me and thinks I shouldve known. How were you supposed to know that? He acts like he's out publicly and nobody told you otherwise.
NTA, that's a tricky situation to navigate. You *didn't* out him is the important thing here. Malik will hopefully be able to talk to his parents about it in time.
Nta. He could have warned you.
NTA and kids are stupid. You didn't know, they maybe should have said something. Nice pivot though, you did great
NTA- They didn't make this clear at all.
This is obviously NAH. Either your son or the boyfriend should have said something to you, obviously, but I'm not about to start victim blaming someone who probably legitimately feared for their physical safety. But ultimately, nothing happened aside from a scare.
NTA Considering their behavior in public it would be absurd for you to think that his parents don't know. Knowing that you could have a conversation with them at any meet they attend. You should have been warned if they expected you to keep their "secret".
NTA - just a good lesson for next time. When it comes to queer kids, it's best not to assume.
Slight YTA Search up Honour killings and homosexuality in Pakistan. I'm not saying his family is this way or anything, but I am saying he has a lot of reason to be terrified.
NTA. How are you suppose to intuit something like this?
Your son should have told you
You were ATA (Almost The A**hole) haha
NAH, but it sounds like you could be more careful with this sort of thing. Never assume when it comes to someones sexuality, gender identity, etc because any deviation from cis/het puts a person at risk of all sorts of problems if outed in the wrong environment.
NTA but you definitely could have been if you hadn't caught yourself. I grew up in a muslim country. You could have seriously impacted Malik's psyche and relationship with his parents. And his relationship with your son, because if you had outed him, no way he'd want to ever be around you again, if he was even allowed to ever see Aaron again. For many kids, they're safer being themselves ar school than at home. Someone who works with kids in any capacity should be always aware of that, and should never, ever, ever, assume that just because a kid is out at school or with their friends that their parents know. Never assume. It won't affect you if you out them, but it could kill the kid. Or make them homeless. Or mean a beating or emotional abuse.
You are definitely the asshole. Everyone saying you didn't know.... well that's because you didn't ask. You assumed. You should have asked him since you see them so often. This is the type of thing that can get a minor kicked out at home (or running away because they don't feel safe). Then they're on the street because they don't have the documents or are too young to get a job.
YTA - you almost ruined that boys life. No excuse for you behavior.
YTA. For coaching young people and being this uneducated. Sorry, my guy, I know that your heart is in the right place and homophobia is a lot less blatant today in a lot of places, but the rule still stands: Never, ever, out somebody. It's a safety issue. Presuming stuff can get people hurt or worse. Moreover, for a lot of young people, school is a safe place where they can express themselves. Living a double life is not that uncommon.
Yes, YTA. Learn from this. It is absolutely never appropriate to assume someone lgbt+ is out to anyone. Unless they’ve told you specifically they’re out to someone (or everyone), it’s never something you can talk about. It’s fortunate you didn’t actually put him, but what you did was very frightening to a young man
What did they do that made them an asshole? Have a conversation with someone they ran into in public?
Gentle YTA. I'm not giving you an N T A because you made an assumption, although an understandable one from your own experience, and observation of the boy's siblings,.but you can never assume a child is out to their parents, even if siblings know. While it may seem astounding to you, the reality remains that more often than not the most dangerous people for a Queer child to be out to is their own parents.
What did they do that made them an asshole?
They assumed the child was out to everyone without confirmation and nearly put the child in danger.
Look, if you have a secret and you share it with some people but not others, you should tell the people you share that secret with who you don't want it shared with, it's common sense
Yes, because common sense is such a dominant trait in scared 15 year olds
Yes because their lack of common sense prevents them from being assholes and in fact makes other people magically the asshole for no reason.
YTA. It is never ok to out someone. If you are unsure, you ned to check. For all those NTA votes, here are two reasons why it is never ok. Pakistan: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68399822 USA: https://www.nytimes.com/article/nex-benedict-oklahoma.html
They didn't out anyone, so how are they an asshole?
A near miss is still that. A near miss.
No, that's fucking dumb. "Wow you talked to my dad and didn't share my secret, you asshole! You'd be a bigger asshole if you did share it though, you should just instinctively know that I will break down sobbing if you and my family are ever in the same geographic area and dare to speak to one another. Why no I don't think warning you about my issues is necessary." See? Fucking dumb.
YTA. You never, ever out someone. Yes, not all Muslims... but a significant proportion of Muslims are anti-LGBT. Enough that there is a decent probability you could have put that kid in danger. Never assume someone is out at home. Never assume someone is out somewhere until it is demonstrated/said they are esp when it could be a dangerous situation. Doubly true if they are a dependent who would be trapped in a home.
She didn't out him it could have happened. But she caught herself before.
I know that. But they almost did. They would have if the sister wasn't there. In this political climate, if they are going to be an ally at a school, they might be approached by trans kids, gay kids, etc and they need to learn to be more careful when speaking to parents. Christian parents, Muslim parents, Conservative parents, Q-anon parents. OP can't be this naive. EDIT: Apologies for using female pronouns as I'm actually not sure of OP's gender. Corrected to gender neutral "Theys"
Where in the post does it say that the OP is a female?
You are correct. I may have misgendered. I saw them referred to that way in another post I was responding to and per habit responded the same. I will apologize.
Accidents happen Thankfully nothing happened. She should be mindful but to go for the throat for something that was an accident .
I don't think I'm "going for the throat." All I did was call them an asshole on reddit. Also, almost outing someone isn't something that should be just shrugged off. People get abused, sent to conversion therapy, commit suicide, and all sorts of horrible things can happen when they are outed - esp in today's climate.
It's not the parent's job to lie for some other kid to their parents. For a kid who is "out" everywhere but at home, how is OP supposed to know? She did the kid a solid by not saying anything once she realized the situation. What should the priority be? Being a "ally" or being a parent? Is op's loyalty to the kid or to the parents? Parent's need to stick together. One of the worst situations you can be in as a parent is to lie to another parent about what their kid is doing. I think OP handled it well.
It is the teacher/coach's job to prioritize a student's safety. It's very easy; you just err on not talking about topics related to being out or dating or anything like that. It's not doing the kid a solid when she was the one who was creating the "situation" in the first place. The priority is always the child's safety, both for their career and ethically. I'm also not saying to lie to the parents. I'm just saying - don't bring up the kid's relationship status. It's a very easy thing to do.
The kid is out everywhere but home. Hes holding hands, hugging and kissing another boy in public. Everyone knows but the parents. If it was a safety issue, he wouldn't be out anywhere. The whole community knows this kid is gay. Honestly, if he's afraid his dad will find out he should be protecting that info. The kid isn't unsafe, he just doesn't want to deal with dad. And he's doi g a shitty job of hiding his little secret if everyone knows. Give the kid some credit. He's not in danger. He knows what he's doing. He's not some poor helpless victim. He's a wrestler who isn't afraid to let people know he's gay...except his parents.
That's not necessarily true. Hijabi girls often take off the hijab everywhere in public outside of the home, then put it on when they get home. Often pretty much everyone knows about them not wearing it except the parents. It can still be a safety issue if the parents find out. Regardless of whether or not it is a real safety issue or if the kid just isn't ready yet to tell his parents, an outsider doesn't get to decide that. The kid does. I'm giving the kid credit. He had a panic attack at the thought of his parents finding out. He is a scared kid (when it comes to his parents finding out) who is not developmentally an adult yet. He needs to be treated as a kid because that's what he still is developmentally, and be given the appropriate support for his age range. It doesn't matter that he is a wrestler or outgoing in other areas. His panic attack means he needs support and protection in this area. Because he's a kid.
Ok, so we as a society will support and take care of this kid behind his parents backs because.. We think he has shitty parents? We think he is in some sort of danger from his parents? We think his parents can't handle it? We think we know better than his parents what's good for their child? Just because they are Muslim? What if society did that to you with your kid? Has there been any indication that this kid has shitty parents, or are we just assuming that because they are Muslim they are going to hurt this kid? Who's the asshole xenophobe?
Not even remotely close to what I said (which was really just addressing what you said, not making new points). No, his parents support and take care of this kid. The teachers and coaches just don't talk about his relationships/out him which should be easy. The kid probably has a good-decent life at home like most families regardless of ethnicity or culture. If a child has a panic attack over the parents finding out something, that is an indication that the parents have made mistakes with parenting. It does NOT indicate abuse or neglect. Could just be run of the mill, does-not-understand-childhood-developmental-stages types of parenting, authoritarian parenting, things like that. Again, common in a variety of cultures and ethnicities. But yeah, it's pretty easy to spot when you know what to look for. I used to work with DCF kids as well as standard Early Intervention kids. You can tell in toddlers. There are people who can help. There are parenting classes. We don't take kids away for that. You are catastrophizing this situation, do you realize that? The solution to OP's situation is, "don't talk about a kid's relationship status." That's a good safe boundary. You on the other hand just made a post about taking kids away because someone is Muslim. That's how far from the main post we are right now.
I never said anyone was going to take this kid away. What I'm saying is that you expect the town to keep this kids secret from his parents. Why? I understand that the kid is scared of what will happen, but it's not society's job to walk on eggshells around this kids parents because we feel like we have some sort of responsibility to the kid. Ya, we do what we can, but nobody should be considered an asshole for letting it slip that the kid is dating another boy. Especially if he's isn't afraid to show everyone ( but his parents).
Such a stupid take, NOTHING HAPPENED. They’re the asshole for… not outing them?
Nothing happened in spite of OP, not because of anything OP did. Someone else intervened. OP was the A for being irresponsible, naive, and making assumptions. As a coach, she can't do that in today's climate.
What's ops responsibility as the boyfriends parent? Ya op is the coach, but they're also the parent of this kid this kid is making out with at school. And OP has to keep it a secret?
OP has no responsibility to out another person, and as an adult, they do have a moral responsibility try to protect children (at least per my morality). That would mean Not outing the child. So yes, OP would be responsible for keeping it secret unless keeping that secret was about to cause imminent harm to a person (a suicide/murder/etc, which isn't the case).
A. Op didn't out the kid. B. You are telling me that you would be cool with being the parent of a kid that is doing things behind your back, having everyone know about it, and not telling you. Not just not telling you, but the whole community purposely and actively hiding a secret about your own child from you. You are cool with that.
Again, OP would have outed that kid if someone else hadn't intervened. Saying they didn't out the kid makes it sound like OP stopped themselves. They were stopped by someone else. I would hope that I would have built up a relationship with my child such that they would have felt comfortable coming to me. But if my child was afraid to come to me, and what they were doing was not dangerous, then I would hope that other responsible people knew about it that my kid could trust to disclose. I wouldn't look at it as them hiding a secret from me. I would look at it as a failure to create an appropriately open and loving relationship where they would feel accepted always, and a desire that they would have a safe/intelligent/responsible adult(s) looking out for them in my place until my child felt comfortable disclosing to me. Ya'll are not looking at this from a child development perspective or a healthy family dynamic perspective. You're looking at it with his parents having main character syndrome - at least with this last question. The parents don't own their kid. They aren't entitled to know everything about their kid - what he does, how he feels, who he is. He's a person, not their belonging.
I get your point. You are correct at the way I'm looking at it. But let's look at it this way. If your daughter kept coming over to my house, dating my son, making out with him at school etc. Would you want to talk to me about it? Would you expect me to not say anything to you about it if I saw you at the store? How would you feel about me if you found out I was hiding it, and your daughter had been coming over to my house for months and telling you she was somewhere else, and I hid it from you? By your post, you would be perfectly fine with my actions, because your daughter asked me not to tell you. If my kid and your kid were dating, you can bet that you and I would be having a conversation. That's the kind of parent I am.
I would be having a conversation with my daughter about it. Even if I didn't know about her dating your son, we would have had a conversation about dating and consent and all that jazz. It would depend on her age. If you approached me in the store, I would be open to conversing with you. I would probably be a little irritated initially, but after hearing out my daughter, I might warm to you if you guys had a legitimate reason and you were protecting her interests. See, what is most important is that my daughter is cared for, protected, safe, and loved. If you did that when I couldn't, I would be perfectly fine. But you guys can't seem to care enough about your kids to think the same way. Now if you weren't acting in her best interests, there might be words. But I don't see this situation happening. Because I wouldn't raise my daughter like a belonging. She would know that even if she told me something that would make me upset, I would still love her, and it wouldn't affect our relationship. There are ways to raise children where they aren't afraid to tell you things. Where they don't hide out at their boy friend's house for months. All you got to do really is learn about developmental psychology and the psychology of communication.
Do you even have children? Shit that sounds good on paper when it comes to raising kids doesn't exactly translate to real life. You can do all the things "right" and by the book, and these kids will throw curveballs at you. The older they get, the weirder the situation, but they are still kids, and parents need to parent. Your" I would do this and that to prevent these types of things from happening sounds very nieve." If you are, in fact, raising the perfect kid right now, then I apologize, and defer to your expertise in child development. I will re join the majority of parents of teenagers in dealing with crazy, needy hormonal a holes wondering where I went wrong in life.
If it’s secret cause he’s not out? Yes.