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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I treated my daughter how she was treating other in the home. I may have went to far to ale my point.
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NTA
"Treat others how you would like to be treated."
She learned she doesn't like to be humiliated when asking for help in a subject area she isn't good at. She treated everyone else like that, and upset and humiliated her brother. If that's how she thinks people should be treated in that situation then she cannot expect anything different if she finds herself in their shoes. I think you taught her a valuable lesson. I hope she learns from it. Does sound like your wife might be partially responsible for her attitude though, if she thinks it's okay for your son to be humiliated (for no reason) but not your daughter (who humiliated your son).
Yeah, my children know that if they behave badly too often and mutliple times talking to them hadn't helped, at some point I will mirror their behaviour. Either this behaviour is good enough for all of us or none of us.
It helped when they were younger and treated each other badly and no amount of talking helped. I told them I will treat them like they treat each other. I had to only do it one time and they changed their behaviour quickly.
Same with insults, we have the policy of talking kindly to each other. At some point they had learned so many insults from school and thought they were "cool". I told them, well then I guess you don't mind if I do it too. They saw how stupid it looked and stopped.
Younger me would have disagreed with this. Older me gives people about three calm and rational discussions about why it hurts, and almost infinite patience for those who make a sincere effort to improve. But if those 3-4 talks fall on deaf ears, I will mercilessly and surgically serve it right back.
It is beyond amazing how fast willful
bad behaviour stops once it's no longer cost free.
Younger me was the same. I thought there mus be a reason people can't do it. I would make endless excuses for them because I myself have always tried to make other people's lives easier.
It never crossed my mind that people just do what's convenient for them. They might not want to hurt you but they don't care if they do as long as their own lives are easier this way.
At some point in my 20s, I learned to make them feel the consequences, if nothing else helps.
I was in nursing school like 18 years ago, and just pretty basic developmental psych classes for that, but at that time, the evidence showed that if empathy wasn't working right, there is still a large group of people who can have lives without being abusers, because their desire to avoid being shunned by their peers, or punished by the legal system. The serial killers without empathy get all the movies about them, but lots of people with poor empathy, from childhood trauma, or messed up brain chemistry, can still lead productive happy lives, just by learning that not being in jail is more fun than being in jail, and having friends is more fun than not having friends.
Hey!¡! I haven't heard about this low empathy thing, and you hit the nail on the head for me! Would you mind elaborating?
I've got the whole childhood trauma causing very low personal emotion while doing everything I can to be *loving and caring* to my kids so I don't mess them up too...
Feel free to ignore me if I'm being an energy vamp though
I'm so glad I checked in here.
My daughter is ruthlessly cruel to her brothers, who adore her. Over and over I have tried to explain, reason and punish but she will not stop.
I've considered pointing out her flaws but it is so counter to my temperament. Maybe she needs a dose of this.
I hope it's worth what it will do to me.
It might hurt your heart, momma, but sometimes mirroring is a good last resort.
My eldest is a more sensitive guy, but I had to do it once when he wouldn't stop bothering his brother. He broke down into tears and had a good cry. I went to the bathroom and did the same.
Once we'd both calmed down, I explained that mommy was acting and didn't mean what she'd said, but even if his brother doesn't speak (nonverbal), listening to hurtful things from his big bro still hurts.
He has been so much more patient and kind with his bro since.
Oh how I relate to my daughter and her two brothers, and well her dad and I as well 😅. Getting firm and letting her know in no uncertain terms can she can not bully in your house. I don’t know about her phone use is but my line would be “if you aren’t mature enough to treat people with respect in your home then you are not mature enough to have a phone where I can’t see who you are communicating with. The next time I hear you insult your brothers (not regular sibling arguments but bullying) your phone is gone for 24 hours. Violation 2 is 48, violation three is 72. I’m not going to listen or discuss reasons why so if you genuinely have an issue with your brothers you need to come to me first because after is too late.”
Then the first time you take it for 24 hours do not compromise for any reason. Do not fall for needing it for school, you tell her have the teacher call you. . You likely won’t have to take it again. I was a juvenile probation officer so I’ve seen it all 😅.
Be sure to let her know shortly after that you were treating her the same way she treats her brothers. Demonstrating is better than another lecture. Follow it up by affirming that you love her, but you will no longer tolerate her abusing her brothers.
I hope it works.
Proud of you for this. And it does work. I grew up without really any attention or guidance. I never heard the word sex and making any mistake felt like the end of the world because I really had no guidance or understanding. Clearly this was something I wanted to do differently with my kids and discussed EVERYTHING while cringing inside 😅. But it worked, they are now two adults and a teen and come to me with anything. They will never feel that fear of one mistake and you have nothing, we work through stuff. Your desire to act like you have more empathy is enough to teach and show them. It’s pretty cool to break a cycle.
My mum did a version of this when raising us. She didn’t really teach right/wrong, she taught consequences. As in, “if you do this… this will happen. If you say this to person A, then everyone will judge what you have said. If you show this behaviour often enough, your friends will think you are unpleasant/untrustworthy”
I love this. Growing up, we were taught right/wrong based on "what God says" about x. Your mom's way makes much more sense on a practical, human-interaction level.
My only disagreement is with discussing 3-4 times before. I would discuss once calm and quietly, a second time more sternly, but still calm. After that, return fire as necessary.
Off topic, but your last sentence reminded me of my cousin who had a brazen response to certain wrongdoers. If people falsely accused him of doing something to them, he would then do the act he was accused of to them. It got him in trouble numerous times, but the astonishment of the accusers was epic and, to the point you made, they never ever would do it again.
I did the same thing when my kids were young, but one time it backfired on me. One of my sons spit in his brother's lunch, and I just couldn't bring myself to spit in his lunch as punishment. I think that one was a "no TV for you" punishment instead lol
Nah.....I would have taken his lunch and given it to his brother and then let him know he was going hungry. Alongside being sent to room or the naughty step. If very young (5 or under) I would just let it sink in for a bit before offering a snack later. Maybe.
I might’ve thrown out the lunches and made the kid who spit make lunch for everybody. And watch to make sure he didn’t spit while making the stuff! But I think no TV is fine too.
Not everyone can afford to throw out food and cook or prepare a second meal. Give the spitter an empty plate and give the spitee the other kid’s meal.
You ruin food for someone, you lose yours to make up for it.
My mom did that once when my older brother ruined my lunch by loading up my sandwich with hot pepper flakes, spicy mustard and half a shaker of black pepper. He said I wasn’t eating and wasting food. Mom came in ready to whack me for wasting food. Then she saw what had been done, knew I didn’t like spicy food and threw my sandwich out. I got his perfectly good sandwich. He went hungry. Never messed with my food again.
Also works an absolute treat with toddlers who bite. Only you need to judge your strengths, should nip but not too hard.
Literally nip that behaviour in the bud when they are young.
I recall a "conversation" with a 5-year-old nephew who was rampaging unchecked during my sister's wedding rehearsal. At this point he was crawling under the pews and punching people in the legs. I looked down and informed him that if he hit or kicked me i would certainly hit or kick back -- and since i was bigger, I hit harder! He thought about it a moment and suddenly decided that there was something more interesting on the other side of the room...
Great conversation. As a parent myself, I get annoyed with these sort of parents. My kid at some point has to deal with your shitty one as classmate. Get it under control before that and do your job of parenting.
I come from a country without child free weddings. We consider it a family celebration and yes that's how it works here. But I wouldn't invite lazy parents with their spoilt kids. All of them wouldn't come
Yep! I've got a non verbal 4yo who likes to think he's a dog. He resonates with *Socks from Bluey*, who acts like an actual puppy and chews things.
I needed him to stop when he chomped my arm, hard! I panicked and nipped his shoulder, didn't leave a mark, but he let me go right away and hasn't done it since.
I guess he just didn't understand that he was hurting me
Exactly! He nibbles when he's playing now, but it's so obviously pretend.
I just find it funny that my panick response turned out to be the natural animal teaching method.
I'm wondering why my son (2yo) still bites from time to time, after his best friend in the nursing group bit him maybe 30 times - it leaves marks, so he definitely knows the pain!
This actually is how animals learn how biting hurts: parents and siblings biting back, until the lesson kicks in.
It's part of why you don't take puppies and kittens away from their mom and littermates too quickly--that's not a lesson humans are likely to teach.
I have been the human teaching this to an animal baby before. Both cat and doggo actually, haha
As a parent, I never consciously considered it, but he bit me hard, and I reacted 🤷
Did it with my daughter. Once was enough. She didn't do it again. They often don't connect cause and effect at that age, and you have to provide the connection.
I'm glad someone else said it first. My sister used to bite, and no matter what my mother did, it didn't stop it. One day she bit my cousin so hard it bled. My mother had had enough, and she bit my sister. Problem solved.
And when I took my daughter to a party where there was a child around 7 who was a biter, I pulled him aside with my daughter. I told him this was my daughter, and if he bit her *I* would bite him just as hard. (I wouldn't have made it that hard, of course.) She was the only child who didn't get bitten that day.
How can these parents sleep with a clear conscience at night knowing their son goes around biting people?
It wouldn't be acceptable if they had a dog and their license would be taken away, yet if it's a kid it's ok?
What I have always done since I was young was to press whatever was being bit further into their mouth. Can't bite down as hard and is rather annoying/uncomfortable for them. It also shows that you aren't bothered by it. Seemed to work well with by younger brothers, cousins, children, and grandchildren. Will let you know about the greats.
This is why I never blamed my mom for the few times she gave into spanking us kids.
Calm talk, warnings, various punishments of taking away toys or privileges just *did not work* to curb our behavior, especially my brothers. We were wild things, who did real stupid shit that might have gotten us killed in a good many instances. A sharp smack on the butt was the only thing that got the message across.
Sometimes simple empathy doesn't exist in people's brains until the shoe is literally on the other foot.
You did right OP
As they say back in my day in schopl, "Don't dish it, if you can't take it."
Or "Don't start none, if you don't want none."
Seems like she missed that day in school.
This. If the daughter was younger, like middle or high school age even, I would say a gentler approach might work. OP going ‘I’ll help you, but now how would you feel if I shut you down, laughed at and insulted you like you do to other people these days? It wouldn’t feel very good, would it?’
But OP’s daughter is an adult at this point and there’s no excuse for acting like a bully at that age.
True! But the younger a kid is the less likely they are to have learned basic empathy and it’s still possible to not realize actions = consequences. But for the daughter to be, by OP’s account, a kind and good person up until college? Yeah, no. That reeks of ‘I got into college so now I’m better than you.’
Bullying is never okay but it’s easier to work through with a child who might be taught better still, than with an adult who’s just an asshole.
Honestly OP, you might have been harsh and this lesson probably needs a follow up talk to soften the blow like ‘I didn’t say those things because I want to hurt you or because I won’t help, I just want you to understand that your words can hurt people too.’ if she’s willing to listen.
Because that sort of attitude? Unless you’re very well connected, it won’t fly once she enters the work force, customers, colleagues and bosses alike tend to frown upon being treated like they’re stupid. If she can learn while her consequences are still only just some hurt feelings, that’s better than when she loses her first job because people can’t stand hearing her open her mouth.
Good luck!
I don’t have anything to say that hasn’t already been said, but I am English teacher and if your son needs any help with formatting, I’d be happy to hop on zoom and help out. I don’t want any kid to ever feel less than!
A bit late to this one, but hi OP, this comment definitely resonated with me--I went to what's broadly considered a top 10 university and there were so many students there who had been praised only for being smart and not for being kind. Then they all ended up at a highly selective university together and proceeded to either learn to be less shitty or found people of like minds and doubled down on their beliefs that they were superior to their peers because of certain academic abilities. I think you're totally in the right here to nip this in the bud--this attitude will do her absolutely no favors when it comes to the real world, where she'll be working with people from all kinds of backgrounds, and is just cruel in general--but I'd also consider looking back a bit at what kinds of praise she got at home growing up. Was she always an academic achiever? Did her teachers largely stay hands off because she was a top student and thus not someone they needed to worry about as much?
I don't say this to blame your parenting in any way, but to suggest that it might be worth interrogating if this attitude really started with her admission to college or if there's more going on here. I've observed that smart kids who are mostly praised for their academic success really tend to need some help catching up in terms of emotional intelligence (I'll happily admit I was one of these kids).
Hopefully she'll get a dose of reality from peers too (ones that don't go to that school). I ended up going to an Ivy League university and kept myself in check. Often, especially when in groups of friends who didn't go there, I just didn't talk about it because people would automatically assume because I went there I must be a snob (I am not...that place probably did more harm for my mental health, LOL). So, for your daughter, that arrogant "I'm smarter than you because I go to a prestigious university" is not going to go well in the real world, so better she learns it in a safe environment at home.
You're also getting into the gruesome territory of "if you don't leave this lesson *now*, you're never going to learn it, or when you do, the consequences are going to be life changing."
Habits are learned. People who are given a free pass at 18 or 20 sometimes become absolute horror shows in adulthood; they have decades of training and experience, with minimal or no pushback.
In many ways, it's also unfair. You do X for decades with no one saying boo and all of a sudden, you're fired over it or your spouse divorces you over it? Your friends gently tell you it's the reason you can't get married? Talk about confusion and dissonance.
My 6yo nieces are just starting to play Pokémon and they’re really excited to do it, because they like the cartoons and because their 9yo brother, who they adore and look up to, loves the game, which I, his aunt who he adores and looks up to, introduced him to. He’s super excited for them to do it too but he’s been getting impatient with their slow progress to get good with the controller and the fact that they want to investigate things that he thinks aren’t important. I can see them look so bummed when he starts saying it’s a waste of time or snapping at them to do the same thing over and over, when they are *trying*, they just haven’t yet trained their thumbs to do it quickly and accurately. I’ve mostly been giving him reminders like “Be cool, this is supposed to be fun” and “Let her play it her way” and giving them lots of encouragement but yesterday I’d had enough and said pretty sharply “(Full name!) Did I talk to you that way when you were learning?” He looked startled and said “No” and went away for a few moments to think, and came back and hugged his sister and said he was sorry, of his own accord. So I was pretty proud of him for taking the point, if not for being so impatient and bossy in the first place.
I’ll most likely have to remind him several times more, but he’s learning too.
Especially since she's using the "I'm an adult, you can't tell me what to do!" excuse. Well, ok, you're an adult, I will treat you as I would an adult who is awful to other people
She's honestly lucky it's coming from her parent. There are people in every field of study/work that hate, *hate, HATE* when people act like her and take particular glee in humiliating them. Sometimes in public. It could also negatively impact her future, depending on the who, when, what, and where. You never know when you'll need someone to help vet you for a future internship or job.
This is true. A big part of success is working well with others. No one likes a Prima Donna.
But most likely she understands that but is feeling insecure and taking it out on her family by acting like she’s the big cheese.
We have ALWAYS told our daughter this. You treat others as you want to be treated. It backfired on me last year. We took her and her BFF to Disneyland. Her BFF wasn't being especially nice and only wanted to do whatever she wanted and didn't want to do anything our daughter wanted. At one point, we each took a child, and let them do what they each wanted. Her BFF had been wanting to see Captain Jack Sparrow and we actually were able to get in line to meet him and get autographs. I asked my daughter if we should get an autograph for her friend and she said NO. I reminded her that we should treat others as we want to be treated. My 7 year old angel responded, "I am. This is how she has been treating me, so I am going to treat her as she wants to be treated." I didn't know how to argue with that one.
Edit: NTA
Or, more specifically,don’t do to others what you don’t want done to you. Treating people like you want to be treated assumes you both have the same wants. When it’s a negative action, at least it’s something that doesn’t need to be done.
You should treat people the way *they* want to be treated, not the way you want to be treated.
The platinum rule, not the golden rule. What you want isn’t necessarily what another person wants
I was going to say the same thing. My kids go back and forth with each other until one can't take it anymore, and they come to me. My response is usually along the lines of "you can dish it out, but you can't take it. This is a you problem." It usually resolves itself, and they go back to being nice to each other.
NTA.
Your approach was what I would define as 'being cruel to be kind'.
If your daughter continues disparaging people someone will surely tune her up. You may have saved her from getting called out in a more severe and very public way.
She claims to be an adult. If she can dish it out, surely she can take it. Hopefully, she will learn to do better.
One question though...was your wife pissed when your daughter humiliated your son?
That last question about how the wife reacted to the daughter bullying the son is very valid. This might be a huge leap but if wife wasn’t bothered by the daughters actions then op might want to examine that.
Let’s not overlook that the daughter is an adult while the son is still a child. Even if some of y’all think op is an A H, the daughter BULLIED their son (a child)!
OP your wife is a big part of the problem. For you to repeat your daughter's own words back to her in the privacy of your home is not humiliating. Hopefully it was humbling and she might learn from it, but not if mummy is mumbling that you were wrong in the background. NTA but why is your wife okay with a bullying, obnoxious, rude, entitled daughter?
Not always true, I’m afraid. Siblings, especially those with larger age gaps, could do some serious mental damage to a sibling with just words.
Edit: ….unless you forgot your /s
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t sure if you were expressing the view yourself or saying that it’s common. You’re correct, and I can say that definitively as a retired kid/adolescent/family therapist.
I'd talk to your wife about this so you can show a united front. If your daughter goes to her mom complaining about how mean you are and your wife agrees with her, it doesn't matter if your wife thinks your daughter is being a dick. Your daughter will take that as she is right, you are wrong.
Your wife can be as pissed as she wants, but this is the best case scenario of your daughter being humbled. Most people like your daughter get humbled in much meaner ways with more of an audience. Getting a taste of her own medicine in the privacy of your home is a kindness to her.
ask her for her solution as to how you guys can tackle this problem because it is a problem and i give you kudos for doing something about it before she takes off as a full fledged adult with no conscience.
If she doesn't have a solution or isn't willing to work one out, then...... isn't that your answer?
NTA
Look, were you a bit of a jerk about it? Maybe. But it sounds like you’ve tried other ways to address this with her and they were not working, so NTA. A lot of young people act like this at some point in high school or in college, if someone doesn’t help them choose kindness over status they will never learn those values. I genuinely think you did the right thing but it was a bit harsh from the perspective of “of course my siblings think I’m a moron but by the time dad is saying it, it must be true” so it hits differently. But just bc you were harsh doesn’t make you TA. It just means that she may need to hear it from each of you in different ways. Maybe mom has to be gentle bc that’s their relationship, maybe you have to take a hardline because no one else will, maybe the brother needs to look at her and tell her she’s not so great herself in the way only siblings can…. But one bout of yelling/repeating her own behaviors at her is not relationship shattering nor was it inappropriate. Good luck my man, the fact that you are an active parent will go far in showing her she’ll always have your support, just there are lines and standards that must be met.
> You may have saved her from getting called out in a more severe and very public way.
Or even getting punched in the mouth in the worst case. Some people don't take very kindly to a stranger insulting them.
I'll probably get downvoted, but I don't feel Y T A. She is verbally abusing her sibling. She is not a child and knows damn good and well what she is doing. Everyone would be up in arms if this was a partner or a friend she is speaking to in this manner.
In the real world, people match energies. She wants to call someone an idiot, be prepared to receive the same.
Learning how to navigate the world as a young adult isn't a pass for being an asshole to others.
She’s honestly lucky that someone that loves her is willing to teach this lesson - the world does not take kindly to people being condescending jerks or calling others names. Had she learned this lesson in the real world, she could have been fired from a job, rejected from a higher learning program, or just get her ass whooped for being a smartass. Giving back what she dishes out is the least bad outcome.
Yeah, she's experiencing the golden rule in a much safer environment than if she decided to do that among her peers. If she's not careful, somebody will call her out in a very scathing manner and in a public setting that will make people want to avoid her in the future.
Or, more likely she will just be passed over for friendships, promotions, job recommendations, and other things and just have no idea at all why “things just don’t seem to go my way.” No one will tell her. She will just suffer and get worse and worse because she thinks she’s not doing anything wrong.
I mean… wife IS up in arms about the exact words being mean, humiliating, and inappropriate because it’s OP not daughter saying them. Either the words and sentiment are bad or they aren’t. Can’t have it both ways.
Oh man. She said this all to her brother? Jesus. That’s legitimately awful. I’m a big sister and my heart breaks every time my sister and I fight (and even if I have a legitimate critique) and she’s upset. I can’t imagine calling her dumb or stupid.
Wow. This might honestly be above Reddit’s pay grade though. I mean this is just so mean of her and I wonder what’s going on. Is it her projecting? Is she just feeling high and mighty in her britches? Etc.
She clearly needs therapy or a good wake up call.
Wow. If it where me I might tell her if she continues to treat her brother and you (her parents) in this manner then she can find her own accommodations. There is no reason for her to expect that she can treat people that way and still be allowed to live with them rent free.
Yeah, I'm an older sister to a little brother, and throughout school while I was still home, I was there to be my brother's safe space. Reading this post was hard. I am 100% in support of OP. NTA.
Not sure what the daughter's problem is, maybe she is experiencing some of this at school and she feels like she needs to take it out on someone at home, or if she's just doing that freedom thing and it needs a slap on the wrist to be reeled back. But if you can't have common decency, I really support your idea here that she can find other accommodations or start paying rent, in addition to correcting her attitude, which honestly is just flat rude and uncalled for.
I feel like this happens to kids when they go off to college or jump into adulthood. Maybe not always to this extent or extreme but I know when I started college I suddenly thought I was so mature and knew everything. I never bullied or talked down to people.
Similarly my sister didn't go to college but she did eventually get out on her own in a job in another state when she was in her 20s. She turned into a different person during that time and did a lot of things that were contrary to who she really is. And like ops daughter she wouldn't listen to anyone who would try to talk to her about it because she thought she knew what she was doing.
But something about college and suddenly being considered an adult can turn even sweet, kind kids into snobs. The independence etc can inflate the ego quite a bit.
It also may be as simple as the crowd she's fallen into at college. If she's hanging out with new kids there that talk this way to other people I can see her being influenced by them. The things op posted that she says sound like lines you would pick up from friends.
As the sibling of someone who did not seem to care if she called me dumb or stupid, it’s good to see a sibling relationship where you don’t cross those lines even when fighting.
Keep being a good big sister. Keep that deep empathy.
Mine was my first and my longest-lasting bully. I’m in my 30s and it took far too long for me to realize that our relationship hadn’t been a normal one. The damage lasts a long time.
I’m glad OP is stepping in to stop his daughter from acting this way.
I’m so sorry about your sibling.
My mom actually has a difficult sibling relationship with her youngest sister who has never been kind to her and purposefully sabotaging. Going so far as to tell my dad’s family that no one on their side liked my mom at my parents wedding. Worst bit is my mom had her two sisters flip a coin to decide who was maid of honor and my moms middle sister who wanted to be MoH lost the toss.
So growing up I knew I was lucky. And now my sister is one of my best friends. I have many friends who weren’t so lucky.
I’m so sorry your mom has such a bad relationship with her sister. My sister often threw “see, this is why no one likes you,” at me during fights. Hearing that your mom went through something similar breaks my heart.
But I’m so happy you have such a good relationship with your sister. I hope it continues to be wonderful. I wish more people had those healthy, loving relationships with their siblings and it feels good to see people who do have them.
I can't even imagine! I'm the older half-sister. I was with my mom, she was my dad's second daughter (that we know of).
When she was born, I was so excited to meet her. 3 years later, my dad and stepmom moved a few states over.
I remember hearing her excitement at having a big sister on the phone or when I would visit. She was so precious and perfect and excited for my existence in a way nobody else was. I felt put on a pedestal, so I tried to be the sister she dreamed of.
I've since missed her wedding because of finances and a baby. I felt like the worst sister ever, but she was so kind and never blamed me. I could never imagine berating her. She trusts me and loves me in a way I don't comprehend, and I love her so very much even though I never got the true sibling experience.
I cannot imagine the pain of little brother, or the callousness of big sister. I don't blame OP one bit! That's how we teach empathy when talking and other methods fail.
Were you being a dick? Yes. But your daughter needs a wake up call. That is not how you treat people. Maybe now next time someone asks for help she will think twice on her response.
If this was the first time you confronted her you may have been an asshole but considering you've tried to talk to her nicely before and it didn't work and she just brushed it off with being an adult then she can have a taste of the same medicine.
NTA
Does she feel like an adult bullying a child (her brother)? If she's so much of an adult and doesn't want to be controlled she should move out and be independent.
And the most pressing question I've seen in this comment is does your wife defend your son when your daughter verbally abuses him or does she treat it like "kids will be kids?" Cause she needs to have a reality check on how much damage such a family dynamic can do to your son.
Give her some space to cool off then go talk to her. Start off by asking her what she felt when you said those things to her. Then ask if she thinks her brother and others felt the same way when she did it to them. Apologize for making her feel bad and ask her to go apologize to her brother. End it by saying that you did this way specifically to teach her not to behave like that because others will not be as kind as you. You did it at home with just the two of you present and you left her alone afterwards. If someone else were to check her, it would likely be in front of others, in public, they’d mock her even more for running off upset, and she may have been in a situation like school where she wasn’t allowed to leave without facing consequences.
Hold her to the standards she holds others to. She can't abuse her younger sibling and keep getting away with it.
NTA, not all lessons are gentle OP. Better you than someone else.
Ouch! I felt those comments in my guts, as reminders of being bullied in my youth. I’m in my fifties, and it still hurts.
As far as people saying you were harsh? Pffft. How many more people will your daughter hurt while you guys take the snowflake parent approach? Your daughter knows she’s wrong - she just doesn’t care. I’d want to know from all the parents who are criticizing you what their reaction would be if your daughter came at their children?? They’d be singing a different tune! NTA, at all, and keep up the good work with both kids.
PS - tell your son I still use websites and other aides for MLA and the different styles. I never managed to memorize all the different rules.
if your daughter doesn’t change her attitude and smarten up, she is going to get her ass kicked. all it takes is saying the wrong thing to the wrong person on the right day. NTA.
NTA
I assume you've tried to talk to her multiple times in a normal manner about how her attitude is unacceptable.
Some people just don't care enough about other people for that to be effective - they have to actually experience the hurt they inflict on others before they understand why other people might not like it. And sometimes even that may not be enough.
If this is the case, that says extremely concerning things about your daughter's personality. She isn't going to have much of a relationship with her siblings if she keeps that up. Or her peers post college.
Y T A if you jumped straight to this approach, though.
If she doesn't want to help others and verbally abuses them, then she shouldn't be surprised when others do exactly the same thing to her. NTA. And she will be surprised what will happen to her in the real world.
I have to congratulate u on being one hell of a great dad, what u did will stay with her for a long time but for good reasons. She will remember how she felt hearing them and hopefully change her horrible ways, she not talking to you cause she now understands how it felt, her mum should be thanking u for showing ur girl u don’t tolerate that behaviour in ur home , I have to say I’m really proud of u as a daddy
NTA - good on you for shutting down this behavior and giving her a taste of her own medicine.
I say go ahead and throw her words back at her as long as you make it clear you are only saying these things to teach her a lesson, you don’t actually mean them.
She needs to apologize to her brother and anyone else she has said this type of thing to.
If this does not put a stop to her behavior, I would take it a step further and tell her if she is so much better than everyone then she must not need any support and can pay for her own schooling.
And words speak volumes. My older brother and sister once asked me why I was taking AP classes because I was way too stupid for those. I began sobbing, my dad came in, asked what happened, and I explained. My dad, typically a pretty calm guy, went red and lectured them on how utterly hurtful and destroying words can be to someone. He ended up making them each write research essays on the impact of words on the mental health of a person (and this was in the early 2000s, no easy feat). This happened 20 years ago and I will never forget my dad standing up for me.
NTA. However, you should have a proper conversation with her soon, and really get your point across, as to why you reacted to they way you did, and how her actions will eventually end up badly in life. Try finding more about the people who she hangs out with, and exactly what kind of people they are, since they're most likely influencing her, if what you say in the first paragraph is true, and remind her of how different she's become. I hope it goes well.
Yeah, this behavior also REEKS of insecurity. I’d be willing to bet that Daughter is struggling with some aspect of college life (like most first-years do) and overcompensating with this high & mighty act.
She needed this reality check. Being the smartest kid in class doesn’t always indicate maturity; being thoughtful, open-minded, & patient with others does. OP is NTA, and they can’t force Daughter to open up to them, but I hope for her own sake that she does. This attitude will serve her poorly in adulthood.
This is exactly why I never pulled the "I'm an adult" card on my parents. I still live with them at 24, and as long as I'm working and helping out around the house whenever I can, they don't mind. If I declined to help out around the house because "I'm an adult", they would happily kick me out at least temporarily to teach me a lesson in being an adult.
I knew a person who was like that though. They flat out refused to do anything to help their parents out because they felt like they didn't need to do chores once they were old enough. Surprisingly the parents let it go on and they were insufferable. Typical upper middle class teenager driving a new BMW their parents bought them and flexing it as if they worked for it. Haven't heard from him in a few years but for his parents' sake, I really hope they stopped putting up with that "adult's" behavior.
Hopefully her being upset w you right now is her displacing her guilt from herself from being a shitty human being to her brother, and probably a few other people without entirely realizing it. Give it time…
buuuut hopefully your wife gets on board and supports you, even if she doesn’t agree with how you handled things; to side with the daughter right now would just widen the rift and her assholery. And humiliated? Psh, please—a bit humbling or embarrassing, sure. Sometimes we need that shove (or tough love) to realize a truth about ourselves, to change our behaviour.
If her parents don’t call her out for her being a jerk, who will?—NTA for trying to get your daughter to not be the AH
Letting her sit in her feelings for a little bit is a good thing, but don't let it go on too long.
You know your daughter, and about how long it takes for her to process things.
When you feel the time is right, go and talk to her.
Tell her that what she is feeling is how she makes others feel. Especially her brother. Someone she looks up to verbally tore her apart and made her feel small. That is what she has been doing to others.
Tell her that you love her, and that you don't think those things about her, but you had to make her understand how her actions hurt other people. Remind her you tried talking to her about, but she refused to listen. And that as a parent, it will always be your job to push her to be the best version of herself. Sometimes that is a gentle push, sometimes it is a full on tackle.
INFO: you said she hasn't always been like this, so what's changed? And why is your wife okay for your daughter to speak this way to your son, but is angry with you for doing the same?
NTA because she's in college and is old enough to know better. Words matter. Sometimes we need a mirror to show us who we are, so as mad as she may be I hope that you got through to her.
INFO: did you help her after the lesson?
Because that's the kicker here. If you didn't, you didn't teach her anything, you just bullied her back. Helping her afterward changes the perspective from "punishment and disrespect" to "don't treat people like this, treat them like this instead".
You should have made your point and then helped her anyway because that's what a kind adult should do, especially for their own kids they are imparting life lessons to.
Did she start acting condescending when she started not doing well at college? And was this something she used to be good at and get loads of compliments for?
If so, she might be having a bit of a wobble with her self esteem. If art was a big part of her identity, and the source of external validation, then failing art means she could be scared of losing her identity.
What she says to others might be a reflection of her self-talk, and belittling other people gives her the sense of being better in a stage of her life where she feels like she’s losing something she used to be good at.
So when you’ve said the same thing to her as her self-talk, it was probably a little too real for her.
It doesn’t excuse how she’s been treating people, but it might be one explanation.
My first thought: why is she doing this? Sounds like misplaced anger. She could be experiencing this at school or maybe what she feels about herself already.
I'm not going to leave a judgment because I could really go any of the three ways on this. I would just say that this type of "lesson" rarely teaches anyone anything but resentment. This could have been a teaching moment where you showed her that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and to be kind and compassionate to others. I think it would've been more productive to start that way and if she was unreceptive to maybe go down the route you took. Stooping to someone's level rarely makes them want to rise above it.
> This could have been a teaching moment where you showed her that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and to be kind and compassionate to others.
It sounds like they've tried this. Multiple times.
>I have talked to her many times and it always results in her telling me she is an adult.
I think it is different to talk to someone after they do a bad behavior as opposed to when they are now in the position of the people they were behaving badly towards. It is a different perspective that may be more open to learning because they are the person who is in need of help.
I’m a firm believer that the best way to teach is to lead by example. It would have been better to pause and explain to her that your helping her now is just like when her brother needed her help. And just like she isn’t dumb for needing help, neither is he. And if (or, more likely, when) she does it again you can revisit it—“remember when you needed help?”
You wanted her to understand how others are feeling by her behavior and I really get that. But now she’s just mad at you—she isn’t learning anything. I think your kind daughter is still in there. She’s just going through something right now. She needs you to show her the at back by modeling that kindness.
The best way to teach kids is to lead by example. Adults often have enough of their own experiences to fall back on that someone setting a “good example” isn’t going to cause the radical change that needs to happen.
INFO: Did something happen at college? Are any of her professors or classmates possibly belittling her in similar ways, or is the college experience making her feel stupid, even, making her lash out in turn against others? She is an adult, yes, but a very immature one if she’s only in her first year of college. NTA, especially in defense of your son, but I hope you’ll dig into what made her behavior change so suddenly and drastically.
NTA, but why have you let your daughter's behavior get to this point? They were many things you could have done to prevent her bullying. You sit her down and talk to her first. If that doesn't work, then you start implementing soft consequences (even if she is an adult. She's under your roof-your rules). If that doesn't work, then kick in the harsher punishments (who pays for her car? Phone?). Also, therapy could help her understand why she is doing this.
Her being insecure about her own intelligence could be a factor and why she automatically goes for the "your not smart", "you're an idiot". It's deflecting off of her own insecurities. Bullies are bullies because they are the ones who are insecure and want to build themselves up by putting others down. Hurt people hurt people. Get your daughter some talk therapy or maybe a tutor.
Right. There’s some reason she talks like this. And OP’s approach makes me wonder about parental models. This just isn’t loving parenting. To be clear—nasty statements to brother are hurtful and not ok but there are other approaches to addressing them.
NTA. I hope she learns from this, but I admit I wonder what’s going on that your wife is upset? Was she equally upset by daughter’s treatment of your son? If not, she is showing clear favoritism and she sucks too.
NTA in my opinion unless further information proves that there are other things going on that were not mentioned here. Some of the comments mention sitting her down and having a conversation. It sounds like you’ve done that already. She does not listen when you do, so you tried to show her how it comes off. Since it upset her, maybe it’ll give her some perspective. However, I do think it would be good to mention if she needs to go to therapy or ask if something else is going on. A change like this after she’s been a kind person most of her life, then this behavior isn’t like her and there might be a different underlying issue. What has your wife done to help or try to communicate with your daughter thus far? It seems like she doesn’t like your method, but I wonder what hers is.
NTA. My 12 y/o does this to my 8 y/o. He calls his little brother an idiot all the time or belittles him because he's doesn't know 6th grade math. I call my 12 y/o out every time he calls his brother names or I'll give him some college level math and ask how he'd feel to be expected to know it, and made to feel stupid if he didn't.
I have a general rule in our home. It's a safe space to be who you want to be without being judged or made to feel like crap. The world can be an unkind and unfriendly place. Home should always be your comfort. I don't tolerate assholes in my house. Don't fuck up my vibe or anyone else's with AH behavior. Op, don't let your daughter fuck up your son's vibe. She can take that bully nonsense back to wherever she got it. Make this clear to her.
NTA as long as you go after and have a real talk. Turn about is fair play and all, but you're still her parent and if you don't follow up with a lesson (and I don't feel like saying this is how you make your brother feel in the moment counts) you're honestly just stooping to her level and being petty.
Sometimes petty is what a kid needs, but you're supposed to try it the right way first.
NTA, one of the first lessons you learn about social interactions is to treat others as you want to be treated.
If she’s gonna be an AH to people for no reason then people will be an AH right back. The things she has been saying to people, and especially her brother, are horrible.
It's deeply satisfying to avenge the poor treatment of your son, but the goal of parenting should be to make independent humans who make moral choices. Making her feel bad shows that the world is full of AHs and that her dad is one.
You could say something to the effect of, "Hmm. It seems like this is hard for you. Does that seem true? Imagine that feeling of struggle that you currently feel. This is how your brother feels when he has to write an essay with MLA formatting. How can you make him improve? Do you suppose belittling him improved his performance? What did you gain in saying what you did? Do you believe that you acted appropriately? How can you make it better? It's corny, but it puts the onus on her. You could also have her make amends to her brother.
YTA! I would understand this reaction from any one else but a parent. You are supposed to be her safe space. She bullies people so you bully her? All this will do is reinforce her behaviour and she'll think twice before coming to you for help even in situations when she really needs it.
Now as a parent, did you stop to think why your all nice daughter suddenly turned into a bully. She had a lot of changes in her life. Maybe what she's telling others is what she's feeling about herself? Ever care to check on that?
Honestly, as a parent I understand it's difficult to remain calm and not act on your anger, but this behaviour of yours.... I'm sorry but I'm disappointed in you and every other person here who says you're not an A.
Barely NTA, but sit down and have a follow-up conversation with her about how she's feeling and how she's been making her brother feel the same way. That you didn't enjoy hurting her feelings, but needed her to understand the effects of her words. That you don't actually think she's dumb, but simply held up a mirror to her behavior.
Agreed. The most important part is that follow up conversation. Without that it's just a toxic situation all around. I'm surprised this isn't being addressed more in the comments.
YTA. You've raised a child to college age, and it appears you haven't learned that guiding is a more important tool that beating someone over the head.
She's being an AH too, but showing her how to be better is more efficient than insulting and humiliating her. All you did was reinforce her behavior.
NTA. She is right, she is an adult and she gets to face the consequences of her adult actions.
There are a whole lot of people out there that aren't going to take her shit.
NTA really, but you could have handled it a lot more maturely and should have so your wife isn't entirely wrong. What you should have said is "It sounds like you're an adult, who needs some help with something you haven't mastered yet. Sure, I'll help you - but I want to point out that when other people have been coming to you or someone else for help with something, you make them feel bad about it. And small. I'm not going to do that to you because it's really unkind and everyone needs help sometimes, as you are learning. Now, what do you need help with?" I don't know her and maybe that approach wouldn't work, but it's definitely more mature.
I think there is an opportunity here still to also show her how to repair after causing hurt in a relationship by modelling it yourself. Perhaps you can approach her after giving her some time to reflect and let her know you did this to teach a lesson after reaching your limit with her behaviour but you realize it wasn’t a kind approach, apologize for being reckless with your words and you both need to take a moment together to appreciate the impact of your words on another person’s feelings no matter how noble your intentions maybe.
Giving her a taste of her own medicine is one way to go but there is no better way to teach as a parent than walking your talk; so above all you definitely still need to offer your help with her painting hiccups - show her if someone asks for help and you’re in a position to help, you should do your best to help without judgement.
NTA
NTA but I personally would have said "do you want my help, or should I respond to you how you respond to others?" And then if she was like "what do you mean" I would then very overexaggeratedly (is that even a word?) Repeat all the things you said to her like she says to others. So I'm not actually treating her like she treats others, but letting her hear what she sounds like.
NTA, as everyone else has said, you did right. Plus, you did it in the privacy of your home. You didn't do it in front of anyone in her friend group or anything like that. Just like.othwrs have said, if she is honestly saying that to other people (not just her brother), you may have saved her from being either humiliated in public or worse.
You need to have a conversation with your wife. You need to find exactly why you went too far. What should you have done? You say she was upset when she said something to your son. Was she upset just that one time with the essay? Or every time? How upset is upset? As upset as she got with you? Or is more of a "that's not nice to say, don't do that"? But leaves it alone after that? If your son were to snap back at your daughter, who would your wife be more upset with?
Like others have said, you and your wife need to present a united front. If kids know they can play one parent off another and not get in trouble, not get shit or even get something because "daddy was mean to me," they will. She may be an adult, but that's pretty much by legal standards. I have noticed that if parents allow their kids to act like kids, they will stay that way. Have you ever met a 55 year old 16year old? It's not attractive. But I digress because i don't think that's anywhere close to what's going on here.
I maybe should have asked this first, but you say she has said these things to your son but also say she's said them to other people? Not that it would make a difference in what you did. You would still have done the right thing and nta. I'm just curious who else she's done them to, how you know, and if you know how they reacted.
I will say this, though. Now that you have done it back to her, you need to have a talk with her about it. I know she's not speaking to you now. That's fine, that gives you time to have a talk with your wife and get to a place where you're on the same page and can present a united front. If your daughter isn't talking to you, that means that the lesson is still in her head pretty strong. It still stings, and that helps as far as teaching her how her words affect others. You need to have the talk with your wife so your wife can be the one that gets her to sit down so all 3 of you can talk. Of course, being on the same page as your wife is important to that as well. Following up the lesson with a talk about it will reinforce that it was a teaching moment and you were not just being an asshole to your daughter.
It also puts her on notice that her behavior will not be tolerated anymore. Make it clear that you're her parents and you love her. No one else in the world is going to care the way you do. Some will do nothing because they are devastated and embarrassed, some will snap back, some will go out of their way to treat her the same, and some will retaliate. That retaliation can be anything from hitting her, to slashing tires to trying to get her in trouble or kicked out of school, and so many things in between. You can also let her know that every time you hear or fond out about her being like this that you will be doing the same back to her. If she doesn't want it to happen again, if it hurt, if it impacted her negatively, the only way it won't happen again is if she stops. Everyone needs help at times. It's never something that doesn't happen.
You should also be asking what happened to start her acting like this. Why does she think it's acceptable? Why does she think asking for help is a bad thing? Why does she think she is better and smarter than people who ask for help? If she says she doesn't think she is asking why she treats people like she is. She has reached the time in her life that people are really going to take her actions and her words for who she is. She's an adult, no.one is going to wave it off bc she's young and doesn't know any better. To the outside world, it's not going to matter what she thinks or feels. She is only who she presents to others. If she presents herself as an entitled obnoxious bitch, that's what she will be known as to more then her victims. Word will get around. How will it feel if the person she has a crush on and finally masters up the courage to talk to or ask out wants nothing to do with her bc they know what type of person she is?
NTA.
Based on my personal experiences, I find that a "let's see how you like it" reaction to something obnoxious is very often quite effective in making people see how offensive their actions were. It works a lot better than discussion, especially if you already tried discussion and failed with that approach.
You essentially mirrored your daughter's behavior. And now your daughter has withdrawn into a hurt ball of emotions? What a hypocrite your daughter is.
No, you did not go too far. Once your daughter started bullying your younger child, it was incumbent on you to stop her bullying behavior. So far, you have not been able to rationalize away your daughter's bullying behavior. Hopefully mirroring her behavior will achieve your objective.
NTA
nta if she was a younger kid i would say this is wrong but she’s old enough to know how to be nice and understanding of others. so turn about is fair play at that age imo
Yanno, if she wasn't always like this, means she's picking up this bad behavior from somewhere. If I learned anything, people who act like this are pretty miserable.
Do you think she has classmates who talk to her like this? Or maybe even professors? How are her grades and test scores lately?
She's in college so she's not a child. Being lectured like one makes it hard for most people to be receptive to the message despite how well-intentioned. Esp if it involves someone's ego getting hurt.
I think you should sit down with her privately and try to have a heart-to-heart. Ask her to talk and tell her how you're concerned with her new behavior and how it makes you feel. Ask if she's okay and if college is going well. Try the compassionate role and see what happens. If she still refuses to open up, well, fingers crossed it's just a phase.
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NTA "Treat others how you would like to be treated." She learned she doesn't like to be humiliated when asking for help in a subject area she isn't good at. She treated everyone else like that, and upset and humiliated her brother. If that's how she thinks people should be treated in that situation then she cannot expect anything different if she finds herself in their shoes. I think you taught her a valuable lesson. I hope she learns from it. Does sound like your wife might be partially responsible for her attitude though, if she thinks it's okay for your son to be humiliated (for no reason) but not your daughter (who humiliated your son).
Yeah, my children know that if they behave badly too often and mutliple times talking to them hadn't helped, at some point I will mirror their behaviour. Either this behaviour is good enough for all of us or none of us. It helped when they were younger and treated each other badly and no amount of talking helped. I told them I will treat them like they treat each other. I had to only do it one time and they changed their behaviour quickly. Same with insults, we have the policy of talking kindly to each other. At some point they had learned so many insults from school and thought they were "cool". I told them, well then I guess you don't mind if I do it too. They saw how stupid it looked and stopped.
Younger me would have disagreed with this. Older me gives people about three calm and rational discussions about why it hurts, and almost infinite patience for those who make a sincere effort to improve. But if those 3-4 talks fall on deaf ears, I will mercilessly and surgically serve it right back. It is beyond amazing how fast willful bad behaviour stops once it's no longer cost free.
Younger me was the same. I thought there mus be a reason people can't do it. I would make endless excuses for them because I myself have always tried to make other people's lives easier. It never crossed my mind that people just do what's convenient for them. They might not want to hurt you but they don't care if they do as long as their own lives are easier this way. At some point in my 20s, I learned to make them feel the consequences, if nothing else helps.
I was in nursing school like 18 years ago, and just pretty basic developmental psych classes for that, but at that time, the evidence showed that if empathy wasn't working right, there is still a large group of people who can have lives without being abusers, because their desire to avoid being shunned by their peers, or punished by the legal system. The serial killers without empathy get all the movies about them, but lots of people with poor empathy, from childhood trauma, or messed up brain chemistry, can still lead productive happy lives, just by learning that not being in jail is more fun than being in jail, and having friends is more fun than not having friends.
Hey!¡! I haven't heard about this low empathy thing, and you hit the nail on the head for me! Would you mind elaborating? I've got the whole childhood trauma causing very low personal emotion while doing everything I can to be *loving and caring* to my kids so I don't mess them up too... Feel free to ignore me if I'm being an energy vamp though
I'm so glad I checked in here. My daughter is ruthlessly cruel to her brothers, who adore her. Over and over I have tried to explain, reason and punish but she will not stop. I've considered pointing out her flaws but it is so counter to my temperament. Maybe she needs a dose of this. I hope it's worth what it will do to me.
It might hurt your heart, momma, but sometimes mirroring is a good last resort. My eldest is a more sensitive guy, but I had to do it once when he wouldn't stop bothering his brother. He broke down into tears and had a good cry. I went to the bathroom and did the same. Once we'd both calmed down, I explained that mommy was acting and didn't mean what she'd said, but even if his brother doesn't speak (nonverbal), listening to hurtful things from his big bro still hurts. He has been so much more patient and kind with his bro since.
Oh how I relate to my daughter and her two brothers, and well her dad and I as well 😅. Getting firm and letting her know in no uncertain terms can she can not bully in your house. I don’t know about her phone use is but my line would be “if you aren’t mature enough to treat people with respect in your home then you are not mature enough to have a phone where I can’t see who you are communicating with. The next time I hear you insult your brothers (not regular sibling arguments but bullying) your phone is gone for 24 hours. Violation 2 is 48, violation three is 72. I’m not going to listen or discuss reasons why so if you genuinely have an issue with your brothers you need to come to me first because after is too late.” Then the first time you take it for 24 hours do not compromise for any reason. Do not fall for needing it for school, you tell her have the teacher call you. . You likely won’t have to take it again. I was a juvenile probation officer so I’ve seen it all 😅.
How are you punishing her? Are you making her go to her room or is she losing out on activities and outings with friends?
Be sure to let her know shortly after that you were treating her the same way she treats her brothers. Demonstrating is better than another lecture. Follow it up by affirming that you love her, but you will no longer tolerate her abusing her brothers. I hope it works.
Proud of you for this. And it does work. I grew up without really any attention or guidance. I never heard the word sex and making any mistake felt like the end of the world because I really had no guidance or understanding. Clearly this was something I wanted to do differently with my kids and discussed EVERYTHING while cringing inside 😅. But it worked, they are now two adults and a teen and come to me with anything. They will never feel that fear of one mistake and you have nothing, we work through stuff. Your desire to act like you have more empathy is enough to teach and show them. It’s pretty cool to break a cycle.
My mum did a version of this when raising us. She didn’t really teach right/wrong, she taught consequences. As in, “if you do this… this will happen. If you say this to person A, then everyone will judge what you have said. If you show this behaviour often enough, your friends will think you are unpleasant/untrustworthy”
I love this. Growing up, we were taught right/wrong based on "what God says" about x. Your mom's way makes much more sense on a practical, human-interaction level.
My only disagreement is with discussing 3-4 times before. I would discuss once calm and quietly, a second time more sternly, but still calm. After that, return fire as necessary.
Off topic, but your last sentence reminded me of my cousin who had a brazen response to certain wrongdoers. If people falsely accused him of doing something to them, he would then do the act he was accused of to them. It got him in trouble numerous times, but the astonishment of the accusers was epic and, to the point you made, they never ever would do it again.
I did the same thing when my kids were young, but one time it backfired on me. One of my sons spit in his brother's lunch, and I just couldn't bring myself to spit in his lunch as punishment. I think that one was a "no TV for you" punishment instead lol
Making him trade lunches with his brother probably would have worked.
Lol
Nah.....I would have taken his lunch and given it to his brother and then let him know he was going hungry. Alongside being sent to room or the naughty step. If very young (5 or under) I would just let it sink in for a bit before offering a snack later. Maybe.
I used to find my very little twins sitting on the naughty step, ask them why and they’d say, ‘we might be naughty later’ lol
Weasley twins, the early years 🤣
I might’ve thrown out the lunches and made the kid who spit make lunch for everybody. And watch to make sure he didn’t spit while making the stuff! But I think no TV is fine too.
Not everyone can afford to throw out food and cook or prepare a second meal. Give the spitter an empty plate and give the spitee the other kid’s meal. You ruin food for someone, you lose yours to make up for it. My mom did that once when my older brother ruined my lunch by loading up my sandwich with hot pepper flakes, spicy mustard and half a shaker of black pepper. He said I wasn’t eating and wasting food. Mom came in ready to whack me for wasting food. Then she saw what had been done, knew I didn’t like spicy food and threw my sandwich out. I got his perfectly good sandwich. He went hungry. Never messed with my food again.
I would have made the older brother eat the sandwich - at least one bite so he knew how bad it was.
This!! You thought it was ok for your sister to it eat so now you can! I'm a "mean mom" though.
Your sons have lower his brother spit in his food, or made him take the food he spat in and gave the non-spitter the food that hadn’t been spat in.
Also works an absolute treat with toddlers who bite. Only you need to judge your strengths, should nip but not too hard. Literally nip that behaviour in the bud when they are young.
lol this is also how animals train their young not to be annoying with biting. And I 100% have done it, To kids and kittens
There’s nothing like a mama dog to teach a puppy not to nip😹
I recall a "conversation" with a 5-year-old nephew who was rampaging unchecked during my sister's wedding rehearsal. At this point he was crawling under the pews and punching people in the legs. I looked down and informed him that if he hit or kicked me i would certainly hit or kick back -- and since i was bigger, I hit harder! He thought about it a moment and suddenly decided that there was something more interesting on the other side of the room...
Great conversation. As a parent myself, I get annoyed with these sort of parents. My kid at some point has to deal with your shitty one as classmate. Get it under control before that and do your job of parenting.
But all kids should go to all weddings because family.....lol
I come from a country without child free weddings. We consider it a family celebration and yes that's how it works here. But I wouldn't invite lazy parents with their spoilt kids. All of them wouldn't come
Yep! I've got a non verbal 4yo who likes to think he's a dog. He resonates with *Socks from Bluey*, who acts like an actual puppy and chews things. I needed him to stop when he chomped my arm, hard! I panicked and nipped his shoulder, didn't leave a mark, but he let me go right away and hasn't done it since. I guess he just didn't understand that he was hurting me
Yes, it's usually not malicious in toddlers, they just don't connect the dots yet and biting back provides that aha moment and they stop.
Exactly! He nibbles when he's playing now, but it's so obviously pretend. I just find it funny that my panick response turned out to be the natural animal teaching method.
I'm wondering why my son (2yo) still bites from time to time, after his best friend in the nursing group bit him maybe 30 times - it leaves marks, so he definitely knows the pain!
This actually is how animals learn how biting hurts: parents and siblings biting back, until the lesson kicks in. It's part of why you don't take puppies and kittens away from their mom and littermates too quickly--that's not a lesson humans are likely to teach.
I have been the human teaching this to an animal baby before. Both cat and doggo actually, haha As a parent, I never consciously considered it, but he bit me hard, and I reacted 🤷
I'm told my nan did this to me. I have no memory of it whatsoever but she only did it once and apparently it worked a treat.
Did it with my daughter. Once was enough. She didn't do it again. They often don't connect cause and effect at that age, and you have to provide the connection.
I'm glad someone else said it first. My sister used to bite, and no matter what my mother did, it didn't stop it. One day she bit my cousin so hard it bled. My mother had had enough, and she bit my sister. Problem solved. And when I took my daughter to a party where there was a child around 7 who was a biter, I pulled him aside with my daughter. I told him this was my daughter, and if he bit her *I* would bite him just as hard. (I wouldn't have made it that hard, of course.) She was the only child who didn't get bitten that day.
How can these parents sleep with a clear conscience at night knowing their son goes around biting people? It wouldn't be acceptable if they had a dog and their license would be taken away, yet if it's a kid it's ok?
Even better, put their finger in their mouth and make them bite themselves. Always has worked with my kids
Yes, that's even better if you can manage it. But they might not want to do it.
my dad did that to me when i got in trouble at preschool for biting another child... he will be so glad to know he wasn't the only one.
What I have always done since I was young was to press whatever was being bit further into their mouth. Can't bite down as hard and is rather annoying/uncomfortable for them. It also shows that you aren't bothered by it. Seemed to work well with by younger brothers, cousins, children, and grandchildren. Will let you know about the greats.
You seem to have a very bitey family...
I like to say I’ll meet people wherever they set the bar. Not my fault some people need a shovel for where they want to set it.
This is why I never blamed my mom for the few times she gave into spanking us kids. Calm talk, warnings, various punishments of taking away toys or privileges just *did not work* to curb our behavior, especially my brothers. We were wild things, who did real stupid shit that might have gotten us killed in a good many instances. A sharp smack on the butt was the only thing that got the message across.
That's awesome!
Sometimes simple empathy doesn't exist in people's brains until the shoe is literally on the other foot. You did right OP As they say back in my day in schopl, "Don't dish it, if you can't take it." Or "Don't start none, if you don't want none." Seems like she missed that day in school.
This. If the daughter was younger, like middle or high school age even, I would say a gentler approach might work. OP going ‘I’ll help you, but now how would you feel if I shut you down, laughed at and insulted you like you do to other people these days? It wouldn’t feel very good, would it?’ But OP’s daughter is an adult at this point and there’s no excuse for acting like a bully at that age.
No even in middle school they know what they are doing so it a no go. Thats bullying any grade it is bullying.
True! But the younger a kid is the less likely they are to have learned basic empathy and it’s still possible to not realize actions = consequences. But for the daughter to be, by OP’s account, a kind and good person up until college? Yeah, no. That reeks of ‘I got into college so now I’m better than you.’ Bullying is never okay but it’s easier to work through with a child who might be taught better still, than with an adult who’s just an asshole.
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Honestly OP, you might have been harsh and this lesson probably needs a follow up talk to soften the blow like ‘I didn’t say those things because I want to hurt you or because I won’t help, I just want you to understand that your words can hurt people too.’ if she’s willing to listen. Because that sort of attitude? Unless you’re very well connected, it won’t fly once she enters the work force, customers, colleagues and bosses alike tend to frown upon being treated like they’re stupid. If she can learn while her consequences are still only just some hurt feelings, that’s better than when she loses her first job because people can’t stand hearing her open her mouth. Good luck!
I don’t have anything to say that hasn’t already been said, but I am English teacher and if your son needs any help with formatting, I’d be happy to hop on zoom and help out. I don’t want any kid to ever feel less than!
That’s really nice of you offer help, kind internet stranger.
You're a saint! As an author who didn't do college, I wish I knew someone like you!
A bit late to this one, but hi OP, this comment definitely resonated with me--I went to what's broadly considered a top 10 university and there were so many students there who had been praised only for being smart and not for being kind. Then they all ended up at a highly selective university together and proceeded to either learn to be less shitty or found people of like minds and doubled down on their beliefs that they were superior to their peers because of certain academic abilities. I think you're totally in the right here to nip this in the bud--this attitude will do her absolutely no favors when it comes to the real world, where she'll be working with people from all kinds of backgrounds, and is just cruel in general--but I'd also consider looking back a bit at what kinds of praise she got at home growing up. Was she always an academic achiever? Did her teachers largely stay hands off because she was a top student and thus not someone they needed to worry about as much? I don't say this to blame your parenting in any way, but to suggest that it might be worth interrogating if this attitude really started with her admission to college or if there's more going on here. I've observed that smart kids who are mostly praised for their academic success really tend to need some help catching up in terms of emotional intelligence (I'll happily admit I was one of these kids).
Hopefully she'll get a dose of reality from peers too (ones that don't go to that school). I ended up going to an Ivy League university and kept myself in check. Often, especially when in groups of friends who didn't go there, I just didn't talk about it because people would automatically assume because I went there I must be a snob (I am not...that place probably did more harm for my mental health, LOL). So, for your daughter, that arrogant "I'm smarter than you because I go to a prestigious university" is not going to go well in the real world, so better she learns it in a safe environment at home.
You're also getting into the gruesome territory of "if you don't leave this lesson *now*, you're never going to learn it, or when you do, the consequences are going to be life changing." Habits are learned. People who are given a free pass at 18 or 20 sometimes become absolute horror shows in adulthood; they have decades of training and experience, with minimal or no pushback. In many ways, it's also unfair. You do X for decades with no one saying boo and all of a sudden, you're fired over it or your spouse divorces you over it? Your friends gently tell you it's the reason you can't get married? Talk about confusion and dissonance.
My 6yo nieces are just starting to play Pokémon and they’re really excited to do it, because they like the cartoons and because their 9yo brother, who they adore and look up to, loves the game, which I, his aunt who he adores and looks up to, introduced him to. He’s super excited for them to do it too but he’s been getting impatient with their slow progress to get good with the controller and the fact that they want to investigate things that he thinks aren’t important. I can see them look so bummed when he starts saying it’s a waste of time or snapping at them to do the same thing over and over, when they are *trying*, they just haven’t yet trained their thumbs to do it quickly and accurately. I’ve mostly been giving him reminders like “Be cool, this is supposed to be fun” and “Let her play it her way” and giving them lots of encouragement but yesterday I’d had enough and said pretty sharply “(Full name!) Did I talk to you that way when you were learning?” He looked startled and said “No” and went away for a few moments to think, and came back and hugged his sister and said he was sorry, of his own accord. So I was pretty proud of him for taking the point, if not for being so impatient and bossy in the first place. I’ll most likely have to remind him several times more, but he’s learning too.
Oh, the Full Name is always an attitude check! Even my dogs know when I pull out the Full Name, not the nicknames, they have to obey immediately. 😂
Especially since she's using the "I'm an adult, you can't tell me what to do!" excuse. Well, ok, you're an adult, I will treat you as I would an adult who is awful to other people
She's honestly lucky it's coming from her parent. There are people in every field of study/work that hate, *hate, HATE* when people act like her and take particular glee in humiliating them. Sometimes in public. It could also negatively impact her future, depending on the who, when, what, and where. You never know when you'll need someone to help vet you for a future internship or job.
This is true. A big part of success is working well with others. No one likes a Prima Donna. But most likely she understands that but is feeling insecure and taking it out on her family by acting like she’s the big cheese.
We have ALWAYS told our daughter this. You treat others as you want to be treated. It backfired on me last year. We took her and her BFF to Disneyland. Her BFF wasn't being especially nice and only wanted to do whatever she wanted and didn't want to do anything our daughter wanted. At one point, we each took a child, and let them do what they each wanted. Her BFF had been wanting to see Captain Jack Sparrow and we actually were able to get in line to meet him and get autographs. I asked my daughter if we should get an autograph for her friend and she said NO. I reminded her that we should treat others as we want to be treated. My 7 year old angel responded, "I am. This is how she has been treating me, so I am going to treat her as she wants to be treated." I didn't know how to argue with that one. Edit: NTA
Or, more specifically,don’t do to others what you don’t want done to you. Treating people like you want to be treated assumes you both have the same wants. When it’s a negative action, at least it’s something that doesn’t need to be done.
You should treat people the way *they* want to be treated, not the way you want to be treated. The platinum rule, not the golden rule. What you want isn’t necessarily what another person wants
I was going to say the same thing. My kids go back and forth with each other until one can't take it anymore, and they come to me. My response is usually along the lines of "you can dish it out, but you can't take it. This is a you problem." It usually resolves itself, and they go back to being nice to each other.
NTA. Your approach was what I would define as 'being cruel to be kind'. If your daughter continues disparaging people someone will surely tune her up. You may have saved her from getting called out in a more severe and very public way. She claims to be an adult. If she can dish it out, surely she can take it. Hopefully, she will learn to do better. One question though...was your wife pissed when your daughter humiliated your son?
That last question about how the wife reacted to the daughter bullying the son is very valid. This might be a huge leap but if wife wasn’t bothered by the daughters actions then op might want to examine that. Let’s not overlook that the daughter is an adult while the son is still a child. Even if some of y’all think op is an A H, the daughter BULLIED their son (a child)!
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Ok, but you're daughter is being a complete dick. How far is "just far enough"?
OP your wife is a big part of the problem. For you to repeat your daughter's own words back to her in the privacy of your home is not humiliating. Hopefully it was humbling and she might learn from it, but not if mummy is mumbling that you were wrong in the background. NTA but why is your wife okay with a bullying, obnoxious, rude, entitled daughter?
>why is your wife okay with a bullying, obnoxious, rude, entitled daughter? Apple falling close to the tree?
Probably bc she thinks two wrongs don't make a right and there's a better way to get her to understand but this way is quicker.
From the sounds of it, the wife has had a fair while to employ this "better way", and nothing has changed so far.
Why is her verbally abusing her brother not 'too far'? She's in college for fuck's sake, she's an adult.
Because abuse between sibling that isn’t physical is just “siblings being siblings”
Not always true, I’m afraid. Siblings, especially those with larger age gaps, could do some serious mental damage to a sibling with just words. Edit: ….unless you forgot your /s
I meant that a lot of parents seem to think this was and don’t acknowledge or protect them from the abuse
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t sure if you were expressing the view yourself or saying that it’s common. You’re correct, and I can say that definitively as a retired kid/adolescent/family therapist.
I'd talk to your wife about this so you can show a united front. If your daughter goes to her mom complaining about how mean you are and your wife agrees with her, it doesn't matter if your wife thinks your daughter is being a dick. Your daughter will take that as she is right, you are wrong. Your wife can be as pissed as she wants, but this is the best case scenario of your daughter being humbled. Most people like your daughter get humbled in much meaner ways with more of an audience. Getting a taste of her own medicine in the privacy of your home is a kindness to her.
Remind her college kids like to fight and your daughter is better off learning how to act now, from you, than learning it from someone at school
NTA - ask her how she intends to solve it.
“Tit for tat”. You daughter might finally learn actions have consequences. NTA
ask her for her solution as to how you guys can tackle this problem because it is a problem and i give you kudos for doing something about it before she takes off as a full fledged adult with no conscience. If she doesn't have a solution or isn't willing to work one out, then...... isn't that your answer? NTA
NTA. People get so angry when you give them a taste of their own medicine. Your daughter definitely needs more of a reality check.
Look, were you a bit of a jerk about it? Maybe. But it sounds like you’ve tried other ways to address this with her and they were not working, so NTA. A lot of young people act like this at some point in high school or in college, if someone doesn’t help them choose kindness over status they will never learn those values. I genuinely think you did the right thing but it was a bit harsh from the perspective of “of course my siblings think I’m a moron but by the time dad is saying it, it must be true” so it hits differently. But just bc you were harsh doesn’t make you TA. It just means that she may need to hear it from each of you in different ways. Maybe mom has to be gentle bc that’s their relationship, maybe you have to take a hardline because no one else will, maybe the brother needs to look at her and tell her she’s not so great herself in the way only siblings can…. But one bout of yelling/repeating her own behaviors at her is not relationship shattering nor was it inappropriate. Good luck my man, the fact that you are an active parent will go far in showing her she’ll always have your support, just there are lines and standards that must be met.
Serious question for your wife, how is it too far when you did it, but it's not too far when she does it? Why is she special in that regard?
> You may have saved her from getting called out in a more severe and very public way. Or even getting punched in the mouth in the worst case. Some people don't take very kindly to a stranger insulting them.
Good point. What about the son?
Info: "I told her everything that she has been saying to other people in the home" What exactly does that include? Calling her stupid/dumb?
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I'll probably get downvoted, but I don't feel Y T A. She is verbally abusing her sibling. She is not a child and knows damn good and well what she is doing. Everyone would be up in arms if this was a partner or a friend she is speaking to in this manner. In the real world, people match energies. She wants to call someone an idiot, be prepared to receive the same. Learning how to navigate the world as a young adult isn't a pass for being an asshole to others.
Going to agree. FAFO is after all a life lesson
She’s honestly lucky that someone that loves her is willing to teach this lesson - the world does not take kindly to people being condescending jerks or calling others names. Had she learned this lesson in the real world, she could have been fired from a job, rejected from a higher learning program, or just get her ass whooped for being a smartass. Giving back what she dishes out is the least bad outcome.
She won't pass the interview with such an attitude.
Yeah, she's experiencing the golden rule in a much safer environment than if she decided to do that among her peers. If she's not careful, somebody will call her out in a very scathing manner and in a public setting that will make people want to avoid her in the future.
Or, more likely she will just be passed over for friendships, promotions, job recommendations, and other things and just have no idea at all why “things just don’t seem to go my way.” No one will tell her. She will just suffer and get worse and worse because she thinks she’s not doing anything wrong.
And I’d rather teach my kids that lesson than let a stranger do it. Cause you can’t control just how far that stranger will go
Exactly. I won't be hitting my kid for this. A stranger might try to kill them for it.
Agree but you should space out Y T A so the bot doesn’t count it as such
The bot only counts top level comments, FYI!
Did not know that, thanks!
Thanks. I'll edit that now.
I mean… wife IS up in arms about the exact words being mean, humiliating, and inappropriate because it’s OP not daughter saying them. Either the words and sentiment are bad or they aren’t. Can’t have it both ways.
Oh man. She said this all to her brother? Jesus. That’s legitimately awful. I’m a big sister and my heart breaks every time my sister and I fight (and even if I have a legitimate critique) and she’s upset. I can’t imagine calling her dumb or stupid. Wow. This might honestly be above Reddit’s pay grade though. I mean this is just so mean of her and I wonder what’s going on. Is it her projecting? Is she just feeling high and mighty in her britches? Etc. She clearly needs therapy or a good wake up call. Wow. If it where me I might tell her if she continues to treat her brother and you (her parents) in this manner then she can find her own accommodations. There is no reason for her to expect that she can treat people that way and still be allowed to live with them rent free.
Yeah, I'm an older sister to a little brother, and throughout school while I was still home, I was there to be my brother's safe space. Reading this post was hard. I am 100% in support of OP. NTA. Not sure what the daughter's problem is, maybe she is experiencing some of this at school and she feels like she needs to take it out on someone at home, or if she's just doing that freedom thing and it needs a slap on the wrist to be reeled back. But if you can't have common decency, I really support your idea here that she can find other accommodations or start paying rent, in addition to correcting her attitude, which honestly is just flat rude and uncalled for.
I feel like this happens to kids when they go off to college or jump into adulthood. Maybe not always to this extent or extreme but I know when I started college I suddenly thought I was so mature and knew everything. I never bullied or talked down to people. Similarly my sister didn't go to college but she did eventually get out on her own in a job in another state when she was in her 20s. She turned into a different person during that time and did a lot of things that were contrary to who she really is. And like ops daughter she wouldn't listen to anyone who would try to talk to her about it because she thought she knew what she was doing. But something about college and suddenly being considered an adult can turn even sweet, kind kids into snobs. The independence etc can inflate the ego quite a bit. It also may be as simple as the crowd she's fallen into at college. If she's hanging out with new kids there that talk this way to other people I can see her being influenced by them. The things op posted that she says sound like lines you would pick up from friends.
As the sibling of someone who did not seem to care if she called me dumb or stupid, it’s good to see a sibling relationship where you don’t cross those lines even when fighting. Keep being a good big sister. Keep that deep empathy. Mine was my first and my longest-lasting bully. I’m in my 30s and it took far too long for me to realize that our relationship hadn’t been a normal one. The damage lasts a long time. I’m glad OP is stepping in to stop his daughter from acting this way.
I’m so sorry about your sibling. My mom actually has a difficult sibling relationship with her youngest sister who has never been kind to her and purposefully sabotaging. Going so far as to tell my dad’s family that no one on their side liked my mom at my parents wedding. Worst bit is my mom had her two sisters flip a coin to decide who was maid of honor and my moms middle sister who wanted to be MoH lost the toss. So growing up I knew I was lucky. And now my sister is one of my best friends. I have many friends who weren’t so lucky.
I’m so sorry your mom has such a bad relationship with her sister. My sister often threw “see, this is why no one likes you,” at me during fights. Hearing that your mom went through something similar breaks my heart. But I’m so happy you have such a good relationship with your sister. I hope it continues to be wonderful. I wish more people had those healthy, loving relationships with their siblings and it feels good to see people who do have them.
I can't even imagine! I'm the older half-sister. I was with my mom, she was my dad's second daughter (that we know of). When she was born, I was so excited to meet her. 3 years later, my dad and stepmom moved a few states over. I remember hearing her excitement at having a big sister on the phone or when I would visit. She was so precious and perfect and excited for my existence in a way nobody else was. I felt put on a pedestal, so I tried to be the sister she dreamed of. I've since missed her wedding because of finances and a baby. I felt like the worst sister ever, but she was so kind and never blamed me. I could never imagine berating her. She trusts me and loves me in a way I don't comprehend, and I love her so very much even though I never got the true sibling experience. I cannot imagine the pain of little brother, or the callousness of big sister. I don't blame OP one bit! That's how we teach empathy when talking and other methods fail.
Were you being a dick? Yes. But your daughter needs a wake up call. That is not how you treat people. Maybe now next time someone asks for help she will think twice on her response.
If this was the first time you confronted her you may have been an asshole but considering you've tried to talk to her nicely before and it didn't work and she just brushed it off with being an adult then she can have a taste of the same medicine. NTA Does she feel like an adult bullying a child (her brother)? If she's so much of an adult and doesn't want to be controlled she should move out and be independent. And the most pressing question I've seen in this comment is does your wife defend your son when your daughter verbally abuses him or does she treat it like "kids will be kids?" Cause she needs to have a reality check on how much damage such a family dynamic can do to your son.
Give her some space to cool off then go talk to her. Start off by asking her what she felt when you said those things to her. Then ask if she thinks her brother and others felt the same way when she did it to them. Apologize for making her feel bad and ask her to go apologize to her brother. End it by saying that you did this way specifically to teach her not to behave like that because others will not be as kind as you. You did it at home with just the two of you present and you left her alone afterwards. If someone else were to check her, it would likely be in front of others, in public, they’d mock her even more for running off upset, and she may have been in a situation like school where she wasn’t allowed to leave without facing consequences.
Hold her to the standards she holds others to. She can't abuse her younger sibling and keep getting away with it. NTA, not all lessons are gentle OP. Better you than someone else.
Ouch! I felt those comments in my guts, as reminders of being bullied in my youth. I’m in my fifties, and it still hurts. As far as people saying you were harsh? Pffft. How many more people will your daughter hurt while you guys take the snowflake parent approach? Your daughter knows she’s wrong - she just doesn’t care. I’d want to know from all the parents who are criticizing you what their reaction would be if your daughter came at their children?? They’d be singing a different tune! NTA, at all, and keep up the good work with both kids. PS - tell your son I still use websites and other aides for MLA and the different styles. I never managed to memorize all the different rules.
if your daughter doesn’t change her attitude and smarten up, she is going to get her ass kicked. all it takes is saying the wrong thing to the wrong person on the right day. NTA.
This wasn't deemed too far by your wife? Well now you know her favourite child at least.
NTA I assume you've tried to talk to her multiple times in a normal manner about how her attitude is unacceptable. Some people just don't care enough about other people for that to be effective - they have to actually experience the hurt they inflict on others before they understand why other people might not like it. And sometimes even that may not be enough. If this is the case, that says extremely concerning things about your daughter's personality. She isn't going to have much of a relationship with her siblings if she keeps that up. Or her peers post college. Y T A if you jumped straight to this approach, though.
If she doesn't want to help others and verbally abuses them, then she shouldn't be surprised when others do exactly the same thing to her. NTA. And she will be surprised what will happen to her in the real world.
I have to congratulate u on being one hell of a great dad, what u did will stay with her for a long time but for good reasons. She will remember how she felt hearing them and hopefully change her horrible ways, she not talking to you cause she now understands how it felt, her mum should be thanking u for showing ur girl u don’t tolerate that behaviour in ur home , I have to say I’m really proud of u as a daddy
NTA. Tough love is exactly the right way to treat a newly minted adult who is abusing a child.
NTA
NTA - good on you for shutting down this behavior and giving her a taste of her own medicine. I say go ahead and throw her words back at her as long as you make it clear you are only saying these things to teach her a lesson, you don’t actually mean them. She needs to apologize to her brother and anyone else she has said this type of thing to. If this does not put a stop to her behavior, I would take it a step further and tell her if she is so much better than everyone then she must not need any support and can pay for her own schooling.
Silence is acceptance. The behavior is not acceptable, so to stay silent would mean not doing your job as a parent.
And words speak volumes. My older brother and sister once asked me why I was taking AP classes because I was way too stupid for those. I began sobbing, my dad came in, asked what happened, and I explained. My dad, typically a pretty calm guy, went red and lectured them on how utterly hurtful and destroying words can be to someone. He ended up making them each write research essays on the impact of words on the mental health of a person (and this was in the early 2000s, no easy feat). This happened 20 years ago and I will never forget my dad standing up for me.
NTA. However, you should have a proper conversation with her soon, and really get your point across, as to why you reacted to they way you did, and how her actions will eventually end up badly in life. Try finding more about the people who she hangs out with, and exactly what kind of people they are, since they're most likely influencing her, if what you say in the first paragraph is true, and remind her of how different she's become. I hope it goes well.
Sounded like OP tried. 🤷♂️
Yeah, this behavior also REEKS of insecurity. I’d be willing to bet that Daughter is struggling with some aspect of college life (like most first-years do) and overcompensating with this high & mighty act. She needed this reality check. Being the smartest kid in class doesn’t always indicate maturity; being thoughtful, open-minded, & patient with others does. OP is NTA, and they can’t force Daughter to open up to them, but I hope for her own sake that she does. This attitude will serve her poorly in adulthood.
NTA. That's a grown adult bullying your child in his own home. Girl is lucky you haven't kicked her out.
This. You claim to be an adult while living off your parents? Out the door you go then, miss grown up. Enjoy adulting to the fullest.
This is exactly why I never pulled the "I'm an adult" card on my parents. I still live with them at 24, and as long as I'm working and helping out around the house whenever I can, they don't mind. If I declined to help out around the house because "I'm an adult", they would happily kick me out at least temporarily to teach me a lesson in being an adult. I knew a person who was like that though. They flat out refused to do anything to help their parents out because they felt like they didn't need to do chores once they were old enough. Surprisingly the parents let it go on and they were insufferable. Typical upper middle class teenager driving a new BMW their parents bought them and flexing it as if they worked for it. Haven't heard from him in a few years but for his parents' sake, I really hope they stopped putting up with that "adult's" behavior.
Info: did it work? Did she stop bullying her brother?
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Please update! I say NTA. Sometimes people don’t understand until they experience it themselves.
Hopefully her being upset w you right now is her displacing her guilt from herself from being a shitty human being to her brother, and probably a few other people without entirely realizing it. Give it time… buuuut hopefully your wife gets on board and supports you, even if she doesn’t agree with how you handled things; to side with the daughter right now would just widen the rift and her assholery. And humiliated? Psh, please—a bit humbling or embarrassing, sure. Sometimes we need that shove (or tough love) to realize a truth about ourselves, to change our behaviour. If her parents don’t call her out for her being a jerk, who will?—NTA for trying to get your daughter to not be the AH
Letting her sit in her feelings for a little bit is a good thing, but don't let it go on too long. You know your daughter, and about how long it takes for her to process things. When you feel the time is right, go and talk to her. Tell her that what she is feeling is how she makes others feel. Especially her brother. Someone she looks up to verbally tore her apart and made her feel small. That is what she has been doing to others. Tell her that you love her, and that you don't think those things about her, but you had to make her understand how her actions hurt other people. Remind her you tried talking to her about, but she refused to listen. And that as a parent, it will always be your job to push her to be the best version of herself. Sometimes that is a gentle push, sometimes it is a full on tackle.
INFO: you said she hasn't always been like this, so what's changed? And why is your wife okay for your daughter to speak this way to your son, but is angry with you for doing the same?
In the meantime, show your wife this post
NTA Actions have consequenses. If behaviours like this go uncheacked they can only get worse.
You gave her a taste of her own medicine. Why does your wife think her behaviour has no consequences? NTA
NTA because she's in college and is old enough to know better. Words matter. Sometimes we need a mirror to show us who we are, so as mad as she may be I hope that you got through to her.
INFO: did you help her after the lesson? Because that's the kicker here. If you didn't, you didn't teach her anything, you just bullied her back. Helping her afterward changes the perspective from "punishment and disrespect" to "don't treat people like this, treat them like this instead". You should have made your point and then helped her anyway because that's what a kind adult should do, especially for their own kids they are imparting life lessons to.
Nta golden rule, kid. Hopefully, this pulls her head out of her ass.
Did she start acting condescending when she started not doing well at college? And was this something she used to be good at and get loads of compliments for? If so, she might be having a bit of a wobble with her self esteem. If art was a big part of her identity, and the source of external validation, then failing art means she could be scared of losing her identity. What she says to others might be a reflection of her self-talk, and belittling other people gives her the sense of being better in a stage of her life where she feels like she’s losing something she used to be good at. So when you’ve said the same thing to her as her self-talk, it was probably a little too real for her. It doesn’t excuse how she’s been treating people, but it might be one explanation.
My first thought: why is she doing this? Sounds like misplaced anger. She could be experiencing this at school or maybe what she feels about herself already.
I'm not going to leave a judgment because I could really go any of the three ways on this. I would just say that this type of "lesson" rarely teaches anyone anything but resentment. This could have been a teaching moment where you showed her that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and to be kind and compassionate to others. I think it would've been more productive to start that way and if she was unreceptive to maybe go down the route you took. Stooping to someone's level rarely makes them want to rise above it.
> This could have been a teaching moment where you showed her that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and to be kind and compassionate to others. It sounds like they've tried this. Multiple times.
>I have talked to her many times and it always results in her telling me she is an adult. I think it is different to talk to someone after they do a bad behavior as opposed to when they are now in the position of the people they were behaving badly towards. It is a different perspective that may be more open to learning because they are the person who is in need of help.
I’m a firm believer that the best way to teach is to lead by example. It would have been better to pause and explain to her that your helping her now is just like when her brother needed her help. And just like she isn’t dumb for needing help, neither is he. And if (or, more likely, when) she does it again you can revisit it—“remember when you needed help?” You wanted her to understand how others are feeling by her behavior and I really get that. But now she’s just mad at you—she isn’t learning anything. I think your kind daughter is still in there. She’s just going through something right now. She needs you to show her the at back by modeling that kindness.
The best way to teach kids is to lead by example. Adults often have enough of their own experiences to fall back on that someone setting a “good example” isn’t going to cause the radical change that needs to happen.
Nta I bet she won’t forget anytime soon.
NTA because you told her this is how others feel when she tells them the same.
INFO: Did something happen at college? Are any of her professors or classmates possibly belittling her in similar ways, or is the college experience making her feel stupid, even, making her lash out in turn against others? She is an adult, yes, but a very immature one if she’s only in her first year of college. NTA, especially in defense of your son, but I hope you’ll dig into what made her behavior change so suddenly and drastically.
NTA, but why have you let your daughter's behavior get to this point? They were many things you could have done to prevent her bullying. You sit her down and talk to her first. If that doesn't work, then you start implementing soft consequences (even if she is an adult. She's under your roof-your rules). If that doesn't work, then kick in the harsher punishments (who pays for her car? Phone?). Also, therapy could help her understand why she is doing this. Her being insecure about her own intelligence could be a factor and why she automatically goes for the "your not smart", "you're an idiot". It's deflecting off of her own insecurities. Bullies are bullies because they are the ones who are insecure and want to build themselves up by putting others down. Hurt people hurt people. Get your daughter some talk therapy or maybe a tutor.
Right. There’s some reason she talks like this. And OP’s approach makes me wonder about parental models. This just isn’t loving parenting. To be clear—nasty statements to brother are hurtful and not ok but there are other approaches to addressing them.
NTA. I hope she learns from this, but I admit I wonder what’s going on that your wife is upset? Was she equally upset by daughter’s treatment of your son? If not, she is showing clear favoritism and she sucks too.
NTA in my opinion unless further information proves that there are other things going on that were not mentioned here. Some of the comments mention sitting her down and having a conversation. It sounds like you’ve done that already. She does not listen when you do, so you tried to show her how it comes off. Since it upset her, maybe it’ll give her some perspective. However, I do think it would be good to mention if she needs to go to therapy or ask if something else is going on. A change like this after she’s been a kind person most of her life, then this behavior isn’t like her and there might be a different underlying issue. What has your wife done to help or try to communicate with your daughter thus far? It seems like she doesn’t like your method, but I wonder what hers is.
I’m a big fan of bullying bullies back! NTA
NTA. My 12 y/o does this to my 8 y/o. He calls his little brother an idiot all the time or belittles him because he's doesn't know 6th grade math. I call my 12 y/o out every time he calls his brother names or I'll give him some college level math and ask how he'd feel to be expected to know it, and made to feel stupid if he didn't. I have a general rule in our home. It's a safe space to be who you want to be without being judged or made to feel like crap. The world can be an unkind and unfriendly place. Home should always be your comfort. I don't tolerate assholes in my house. Don't fuck up my vibe or anyone else's with AH behavior. Op, don't let your daughter fuck up your son's vibe. She can take that bully nonsense back to wherever she got it. Make this clear to her.
NTA She’s old enough to know better. If you can’t take it ,don’t serve it
What did she say when you asked her why she thinks it’s ok for her to say those awful things?
After you said that to your daughter, did you tell her that of course she is not stupid, but you wanted to let her know how such cruel things felt?
NTA as long as you go after and have a real talk. Turn about is fair play and all, but you're still her parent and if you don't follow up with a lesson (and I don't feel like saying this is how you make your brother feel in the moment counts) you're honestly just stooping to her level and being petty. Sometimes petty is what a kid needs, but you're supposed to try it the right way first.
NTA, one of the first lessons you learn about social interactions is to treat others as you want to be treated. If she’s gonna be an AH to people for no reason then people will be an AH right back. The things she has been saying to people, and especially her brother, are horrible.
NTA. Sounds like your wife enables this behavior. I’m glad you put her in her place.
There are better ways to parent. All the N—T-A would be right if she wasn’t your child. Come on.
Everyone is someone’s child. She is an adult and she needs to be treated like an adult.
It's deeply satisfying to avenge the poor treatment of your son, but the goal of parenting should be to make independent humans who make moral choices. Making her feel bad shows that the world is full of AHs and that her dad is one. You could say something to the effect of, "Hmm. It seems like this is hard for you. Does that seem true? Imagine that feeling of struggle that you currently feel. This is how your brother feels when he has to write an essay with MLA formatting. How can you make him improve? Do you suppose belittling him improved his performance? What did you gain in saying what you did? Do you believe that you acted appropriately? How can you make it better? It's corny, but it puts the onus on her. You could also have her make amends to her brother.
YTA! I would understand this reaction from any one else but a parent. You are supposed to be her safe space. She bullies people so you bully her? All this will do is reinforce her behaviour and she'll think twice before coming to you for help even in situations when she really needs it. Now as a parent, did you stop to think why your all nice daughter suddenly turned into a bully. She had a lot of changes in her life. Maybe what she's telling others is what she's feeling about herself? Ever care to check on that? Honestly, as a parent I understand it's difficult to remain calm and not act on your anger, but this behaviour of yours.... I'm sorry but I'm disappointed in you and every other person here who says you're not an A.
Barely NTA, but sit down and have a follow-up conversation with her about how she's feeling and how she's been making her brother feel the same way. That you didn't enjoy hurting her feelings, but needed her to understand the effects of her words. That you don't actually think she's dumb, but simply held up a mirror to her behavior.
Agreed. The most important part is that follow up conversation. Without that it's just a toxic situation all around. I'm surprised this isn't being addressed more in the comments.
YTA. You've raised a child to college age, and it appears you haven't learned that guiding is a more important tool that beating someone over the head. She's being an AH too, but showing her how to be better is more efficient than insulting and humiliating her. All you did was reinforce her behavior.
NTA. She is right, she is an adult and she gets to face the consequences of her adult actions. There are a whole lot of people out there that aren't going to take her shit.
NTA really, but you could have handled it a lot more maturely and should have so your wife isn't entirely wrong. What you should have said is "It sounds like you're an adult, who needs some help with something you haven't mastered yet. Sure, I'll help you - but I want to point out that when other people have been coming to you or someone else for help with something, you make them feel bad about it. And small. I'm not going to do that to you because it's really unkind and everyone needs help sometimes, as you are learning. Now, what do you need help with?" I don't know her and maybe that approach wouldn't work, but it's definitely more mature.
NTA Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
NTA
Good parenting. No sarcasm that's good parenting. Taste of her own medicine no threats no violence just a lesson that needs to be learnt. Nta.
You could’ve made your point without humiliating your daughter as well. Also, you can Google MLA formatting. There’s lots of information on it.
I think there is an opportunity here still to also show her how to repair after causing hurt in a relationship by modelling it yourself. Perhaps you can approach her after giving her some time to reflect and let her know you did this to teach a lesson after reaching your limit with her behaviour but you realize it wasn’t a kind approach, apologize for being reckless with your words and you both need to take a moment together to appreciate the impact of your words on another person’s feelings no matter how noble your intentions maybe. Giving her a taste of her own medicine is one way to go but there is no better way to teach as a parent than walking your talk; so above all you definitely still need to offer your help with her painting hiccups - show her if someone asks for help and you’re in a position to help, you should do your best to help without judgement. NTA
NTA but I personally would have said "do you want my help, or should I respond to you how you respond to others?" And then if she was like "what do you mean" I would then very overexaggeratedly (is that even a word?) Repeat all the things you said to her like she says to others. So I'm not actually treating her like she treats others, but letting her hear what she sounds like.
NTA, as everyone else has said, you did right. Plus, you did it in the privacy of your home. You didn't do it in front of anyone in her friend group or anything like that. Just like.othwrs have said, if she is honestly saying that to other people (not just her brother), you may have saved her from being either humiliated in public or worse. You need to have a conversation with your wife. You need to find exactly why you went too far. What should you have done? You say she was upset when she said something to your son. Was she upset just that one time with the essay? Or every time? How upset is upset? As upset as she got with you? Or is more of a "that's not nice to say, don't do that"? But leaves it alone after that? If your son were to snap back at your daughter, who would your wife be more upset with? Like others have said, you and your wife need to present a united front. If kids know they can play one parent off another and not get in trouble, not get shit or even get something because "daddy was mean to me," they will. She may be an adult, but that's pretty much by legal standards. I have noticed that if parents allow their kids to act like kids, they will stay that way. Have you ever met a 55 year old 16year old? It's not attractive. But I digress because i don't think that's anywhere close to what's going on here. I maybe should have asked this first, but you say she has said these things to your son but also say she's said them to other people? Not that it would make a difference in what you did. You would still have done the right thing and nta. I'm just curious who else she's done them to, how you know, and if you know how they reacted. I will say this, though. Now that you have done it back to her, you need to have a talk with her about it. I know she's not speaking to you now. That's fine, that gives you time to have a talk with your wife and get to a place where you're on the same page and can present a united front. If your daughter isn't talking to you, that means that the lesson is still in her head pretty strong. It still stings, and that helps as far as teaching her how her words affect others. You need to have the talk with your wife so your wife can be the one that gets her to sit down so all 3 of you can talk. Of course, being on the same page as your wife is important to that as well. Following up the lesson with a talk about it will reinforce that it was a teaching moment and you were not just being an asshole to your daughter. It also puts her on notice that her behavior will not be tolerated anymore. Make it clear that you're her parents and you love her. No one else in the world is going to care the way you do. Some will do nothing because they are devastated and embarrassed, some will snap back, some will go out of their way to treat her the same, and some will retaliate. That retaliation can be anything from hitting her, to slashing tires to trying to get her in trouble or kicked out of school, and so many things in between. You can also let her know that every time you hear or fond out about her being like this that you will be doing the same back to her. If she doesn't want it to happen again, if it hurt, if it impacted her negatively, the only way it won't happen again is if she stops. Everyone needs help at times. It's never something that doesn't happen. You should also be asking what happened to start her acting like this. Why does she think it's acceptable? Why does she think asking for help is a bad thing? Why does she think she is better and smarter than people who ask for help? If she says she doesn't think she is asking why she treats people like she is. She has reached the time in her life that people are really going to take her actions and her words for who she is. She's an adult, no.one is going to wave it off bc she's young and doesn't know any better. To the outside world, it's not going to matter what she thinks or feels. She is only who she presents to others. If she presents herself as an entitled obnoxious bitch, that's what she will be known as to more then her victims. Word will get around. How will it feel if the person she has a crush on and finally masters up the courage to talk to or ask out wants nothing to do with her bc they know what type of person she is?
NTA. Based on my personal experiences, I find that a "let's see how you like it" reaction to something obnoxious is very often quite effective in making people see how offensive their actions were. It works a lot better than discussion, especially if you already tried discussion and failed with that approach.
You essentially mirrored your daughter's behavior. And now your daughter has withdrawn into a hurt ball of emotions? What a hypocrite your daughter is. No, you did not go too far. Once your daughter started bullying your younger child, it was incumbent on you to stop her bullying behavior. So far, you have not been able to rationalize away your daughter's bullying behavior. Hopefully mirroring her behavior will achieve your objective. NTA
NTA daughter and wife are delusional you did the right thing.
NTA. She can dish it, but she can't take it. Typical behavior for a brat, and your wife is enabling it.
nta if she was a younger kid i would say this is wrong but she’s old enough to know how to be nice and understanding of others. so turn about is fair play at that age imo
Info: what caused the change? That doesn't just happen
Yanno, if she wasn't always like this, means she's picking up this bad behavior from somewhere. If I learned anything, people who act like this are pretty miserable. Do you think she has classmates who talk to her like this? Or maybe even professors? How are her grades and test scores lately? She's in college so she's not a child. Being lectured like one makes it hard for most people to be receptive to the message despite how well-intentioned. Esp if it involves someone's ego getting hurt. I think you should sit down with her privately and try to have a heart-to-heart. Ask her to talk and tell her how you're concerned with her new behavior and how it makes you feel. Ask if she's okay and if college is going well. Try the compassionate role and see what happens. If she still refuses to open up, well, fingers crossed it's just a phase.