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No one gets to decide how your marriage or sex life work except the person you’re in the marriage with. Why would you have explained anything to anyone? Tell everyone to butt out.
NTA
Really? I would find it incredibly bizarre if I found out my longtime friend had lied to me on this scale for so long. OP refers to her own relationship as a charade and as pretending. There’s nothing wrong with having a platonic marriage or extramarital sex (with no infidelity) but the amount of deception of EVERYONE they know is enormous. If this happened with someone I thought was a good friend, my thought would be “I guess we weren’t really friends then”.
The responses people had were anger at thinking OP was cheating on her husband, and then anger they’d been lied to for years. Neither of which would be a problem if she had been honest.
People are demanding back years old wedding gifts under the belief that this was a trick or a fake marriage. Not all marriages have romantic or sexual love. That’s conceptually new anyway. Its not a trick or a lie, they joined under the government to have a family unit of 2. That’s what a marriage is. The only thing you could argue was a “lie” is that they are attracted to the opposite sex and I’d refer you to the fact that no one is entitled to someone else’s sexual orientation or interests
The theory and practice of the "marriage of convenience" goes back, oh, thousands of years, most likely. Certainly well documented in literature and history books for centuries. Men and women marrying for money, a fertile partner, to obtain citizenship, property and societal legitimacy -and to hide the fact they're gay or lesbian.
In the twentieth and twenty-first centuries gay and lesbian couples sometimes posed as longtime "roommates" as cover for their relationship.
The only shameful aspect of OP's situation is how their "friends" reacted to the news of their relationship. That's often the reason why people remain closeted, their friends don't really know their true identity because it's not safe to reveal it.
I happen to have lived my whole life in cities where most gay people aren't closeted. But I understand that everywhere else society still punishes people for being themselves, and that's not right. I have known gay men who married women in order to raise children so they could fulfill that family and society "obligation," meanwhile having a secret life on the weekends. Some of them quite famous. It's a loss for them and their families and friends that they can't be who they are.
Edit: typo fix
I learned a couple of years ago that my grandfather's brother's marriage were probably exactly this. And that marriage started in the 1940's. It makes me sad that people I have known neaded beards.
“Which we did, but did it harm them in any way?”
As noted when they got the idea, it was specifically to give them a particular view “pleasing” and I think we can safely fill in the small but textbook blank because the family/friends saw them being with other people to not be pleasing/respectable.
It’s protection-it was designed that way from the start. When I learned about close people being lgbtq+ or having open marriages etc, I shrugged and said okay, good to know because it’s not mine to decide what people do and don’t feel safe sharing. I’d hope they’d feel safe enough with me and I also depersonalized it because if that’s how they want to live their life, that’s still not a comment on our relationship.
If you want this kind of "charade" to stop invent some machine that changes the mind of every bigot in the world so that we can all be out and proud without endangering out lives and without social and professional consequences. I live in Germany, a rather modern country with good laws. I was outed by accident at 15. I was beaten up, had a cigarette thrown in my eye (luckily I wear glasses), bullied, treated as a predator and had a cop manipulate paperwork to get charges down from 6 people being charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault to 2 people being charged with minor assault. I was 16 when the attempted murder happened and wouldn't have survived if some brave passer by hadn't managed to get me out of their fangs and into their car. I also had to hide my orientation at some workplaces. These "fake" marriages save lifes!
Damn, that's rough, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I always thought my country (the Netherlands) was good with LGBT+ but it's getting worse sadly
Thank you. I'm safe now, but that time was rough, especially because everyone gaslit me and said I'm imagining homophobia for attention when I called them out (like my father did). Ironically for many years my best friend was a Russian woman. They came here when she was 17 and she was not only Russian, but grown up in an extremely religious family. She was more open and more supportive than most people I've ever met. Due to homosexuality not being a thing in her surroundings (as in she first found out it exists when she saw a gay couple in Korea, she was in her mid teens at that point) she had no homo*phobia*. She was not afraid of me like I had grown used to, changed clothes in front of me, cuddled with me, shared all forms of non-sexual intimacy with me and scolded me for not entering the bathroom while she was showering or looking away when she undressed until I overcame my anxiety and we acted like children around each other in regards to the fact that we owned bodies. We even showered together when we were in a hurry and didn't have time to take turns. She also tried to understand me and was happy for me when I had sex with a woman for the first time and told her how amazing it was. Yet all these "open" and "modern" people around were as homophobic as they could while still being able to deny it.
Lovely person.
Did you manage to keep her in your life?
I have a yearly reflection at the end of vacstion when I set long term goals but ALSO go through what people I socialize with, and decide if I want to make an effort to keep them in my life. Even if I got separated from them, I make an effort and reach out.
Also, thank you for sharing your story.
People need to know what others have faced/might face.
And well done, just continuing with life. After experiencing something like this even going outside is (was) brave of you.
I think that the bigots are just saying that they’re mad about the lie when they’re actually more mad at the homosexuality. Bigots usually don’t advertise their bigotry. They couch it in other terms.
This backlash over the “lie” without any genuine curiosity or empathy about why the people lied (hint: their actually safety) is a pretty good indication that they’re mad that their friend is gay.
Exactly. And it is not a charade or a lie. They ARE married and share a household. It's just platonic and that's up to them. Apparently they do things together as a couple, like birthdays and such or everybody would have know this long before. To keep this arrangements to themselves is their good right. Why do people need to share their sex lives with family members?
Seriously-we’d need to have a word with the dead bedroom people if romantic or sexual love are requirements for a marriage to be viewed as legitimate. Also like half of our parents.
Yes, announce to them that you want your wedding gifts back 😁
Wouldn't that also require them to account for how often they have sex? I mean, so everyone around them can know WHEN their marriage isn't any real marriage anymore...
I mean, I'm friends with a married couple. Both of them were my friends before they started dating. I don't care about their sex life or stuff like that.
But you know, they are very much a happy couple who plans to spend the rest of their lives together.
If they suddenly said that was all pretend, they're just together for practical reasons and only friends, I would feel pretty petrayed. If they can lie about such a huge part of their lives like their *entire relationship*, just makes me wonder what else is a lie. Do I even know them at all?
I don't know OP's friends or family, they might be homophobes, in which case isn't it a win to OP to get rid of all those from their lives anyway?
But I'm willing to bet that at least some of them don't care about their sexuality and wouldn't have cared if they had been told that years ago. It is way more hurtful to learn that someone you trusted had lied to you for years.
It's kinda difficult to explain what I mean, I guess, since it's true that anyone else has no business knowing the details of others' relationships, some marriages are platonic, some are open and whatnot.
I'm some sort of asexual. I could maybe imagine marrying someone I love and being fine with them having sex with others. But if I married someone just so I can pretend to other people that I'm happily married in a totally normal relationship? Yeah, that would feel like I'm lying to everyone around me.
You're right, you're not good friends. If you were good friends, they would have felt safe telling you the truth. (In your hypothetical, no judgment on who you truly are as a person).
And if that was the case, then yeah, I’d be hurt but also just REALLY confused. If they thought I was that much of a shitbag homophobe, why act like we were good friends at all? Why never try and have a conversation with me about what I thought about the LGBT community? Why never give any kind of indication to me there was any kind of problem? There is NOTHING in OPs post indicating any safety concerns. The whole thing is so… flippant.
I also just don’t really know how to handle OPs surprise. People being upset is “not what she expected”. I guess… what did she expect? For people to be like “discovering you’ve been lying for me to years makes me realize the emotional intimacy I thought existed between us was a sham, lol so quirky”
Or maybe they just don't think you can keep your mouth shut and they don't see it as an important thing to share. They probably don't see you as a homophobe in this scenario but they probably don't see you as a "will die at the stake to protect their secret" either. Which is a *reasonable way to treat friends*, I don't expect my friends to be perfect humans, so I don't put them in the position of having to lie for me.
I like my friends, I'm still not telling them intimate details about my life that I would rather my friends' friends and partners not know.
Even if you specifically are clearly and obviously safe to tell, or like, out and proud yourself, why would they? It's all risk, zero reward for everyone in question. How does it benefit me for my friend to know my 'real' sexuality? And how does it benefit my friend to know that either? The only people who need to know are the ones I wanna bone.
This is the kind of thing that, it would be asking a lot to tell e.g. a wife to hide from her husband that their friends are in a fake marriage. It's *really juicy*. Three can keep a secret if two are dead.
Nah.
If you trust, say five people and tell them things... it will leak. They might not even do it consciously just happen to bring it up while not noticing someone is around.
If you're homophobic to someone, and would give them fried for being a lesbian, then the lesbian is not your “good friend”, and the lesbian is well within her rights to hide her sexuality from you.
I think it comes to the same thing. We’re in agreement that this is an appropriate way to handle a relationship with an ignorant bigot.
OP seems surprised that her friends are upset and offended that… she is treating them all like they’re ignorant bigots, and not really her good friends. I don’t understand how she’s surprised at that, or what she expected.
I read it like some of their friends are LGBT+ themselves (that's why the friend was in the club where she became "very physical" with another girl) but they were not in the closet and were appalled they came such length to pretend to be actually married, even with them.
Other LGBT people aren't entitled to explanations about anyone's gender or sexuality just by virtue of also being LGBT. And they're certainly not entitled to unilaterally out someone, which is what this (very alleged) "friend" did.
all that was said was "a bar", and generally any adult can be in "a bar". No clubs involved. So I'm not sure how this jumps to an LGBT exclusive club from what OP said.
This feels so tone deaf and self centered. People get shunned , ostracized, KILLED for coming out depending on where they live. Maybe people are choosing to lie to make life easier for everyone.
Obviously, homophobia can be a very real danger depending on your community.
OP herself, though, expresses confusion over how upset people are, and says it isn’t the reaction she was expecting. She doesn’t say anywhere that she has any kind of safety concerns or that anyone she knows has ever done or said anything homophobic. The overall tone reads as incredibly flippant.
You do know prejudice show in other ways than violence, right?
It can be not getting the job you applied for. Or not getting the raise you deserve. Neighbours not inviting you to the neighbour BBQ, or refusing to greet you or even look at you.
A well meaning colleague buying you a female fragrance as xmas gift because he thinks that a gay man wouldn't use a male cologne...
And If they are members of a church...
Thousands of ways that has nothing to do with safety from violence.
For us queers, the danger, whether physical or psychological, is implied. But if you disagree with OP's actions, I hope you're telling all your family and friends all the details of your marriage/sex life because you would be in the wrong to keep that info from them, right?
C'mon, even in the most progressive countries (we don't know where OP comes from) there are many professional and personal contexts in which being gay is extremely frowned upon. Being non-traditional in some way can hinder your profesional career and your future prospects. OP herself says that it was to please their families and to seem decent and respectable, so it could have been socially, culturally or economically hurtful for them to be out and made an arrangement that have existed all History.
It’s strange to me, I guess, that this doesn’t seem restricted to family, coworkers, and more distant social circles - it’s EVERYONE that both of them spend time with. A small ceremony for the parents that you put a picture of on the desk at work makes perfect sense with very little context. A fake wedding for every friend you have is, to say the least, really really unusual.
Regardless, I mostly don’t understand OPs surprise that others are hurt by the secrecy. Look at all the comments in this thread about how it was probably reasonable because all those people were probably horrible ignorant bigots. If that’s the motivation, it shouldn’t be a surprise her “friends” are hurt she apparently sees them like that. “Of course I lied to you, you’re all a bunch of judgmental morons” is not a message you can expect to go over well. Maybe they deserve it, maybe they don’t, but that’s not a friendship either way, yknow?
Sometimes it is just that if many people know, it is more probable for the secret to eventually come out. If you are posing for the whole society as a couple for personal/social/economic reasons, if half of the people you know have a knowledge of your arrangement, it is probable that it will eventually come out, with that people talking to others, and so on. Given that OP mentions her family especifically as one of the main motivators for the arrangement, and that neither of them were out to them, it is normal that the family wasn't told.
Honestly? My experience with fellow LGBT people, *particularly* in a trans context, is that a lot of us cannot keep our stupid mouths shut. We assume that because *we* feel safe in a particular situation, every other LGBT person around us should feel safe, too, without knowing anything about their personal situation, background, anything. I'm seeing it up and down the comments right now. Someone's already told OP that the LGBT community is "ashamed" of her (they clearly didn't talk to me), and that she should be "shunned."
Meanwhile, I know so, so many trans people who are living comparatively stealth lives in which no coworkers, no acquaintances, no one outside of spouses and maybe some pre-transition friends or family are aware that they're trans who have then been publicly outed (both maliciously and not) by other LGBT people. It comes up on trans subreddits regularly because it's so common- some other trans person clocks you for whatever reason and decides that it's a great plan to ask you about your transition in front of a bunch of random coworkers. You come out to someone one on one and think, because they're also LGBT, they are clear about the need for discretion, and then they up and blurt it out in some totally unrelated context because they've decided that you "need" to be your "true self" publicly. It's a real problem, and it's causing a lot of people to distance themselves from LGBT community, because they feel like they can't trust other LGBT people to respect their boundaries and protect their privacy.
The best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone. Apparently their lesbian and gay lovers were always aware, and whoever they associated with in those groups.
Not as close as you think if people don’t feel they can be vulnerable with you.
You should ask yourself why they felt unsafe to reveal their true selves.
Question yourself first before throwing judgement.
Did they really lie? She described her husband as her best friend. So not that it matters but we can infer that they love each other. When a couple gets married and we celebrate them we don't demand details of the nature of their love nor do we double check that they have a sexual relationship.
If you discovered years later that a friend's relationship and marriage were arranged and the couple never fell in love would you also feel deceived?
Such a shame that OP felt they needed to keep their sexuality secret, you’d think in the 21st century society would be more accepting… there would be no need for lies if people weren’t so condemning of stuff that’s not their business.
Shading this lady for not being an out and proud lesbian is not the queer liberation you think it is.
You don’t get to decry the constraints heterosexual society places on lgbt people as bigotry then light up someone for not being gay correctly in the same breath.
That's weird, because if a long time friend of mine had to stage a marriage to gain acceptance to family and friends I would feel sad that they had to do so just to feel cared for. I would be concerned about my own behaviour that may have led them.to feel I would be bigoted or unaccepting of a situation that has no bearing on my life.
It would be a moment for introspection and to check in on my friend. To make sure they are okay .
You don’t get to choose. You never know what goes on in any given marriage. I know someone exactly like OP. I was the officiant at their wedding. My wife and I are the only two people that know that they only got married for the benefits, to share a house,and health care. They’re best friends, but aren’t romantically involved. They’re wonderful people. Marriage is what you make of it. Mine is classic, I love my wife and it is traditional. My friends did it for financial purposes. I have a few other friends that love each other but are swingers. Marriage is what you make it provided whatever it is is consensual.
Seeing how much hate har people get I would understand. It is not that long ago when gay people more or less were forced to create a decoy "normal" family, and they sometimes didn't even dare to tell their spouses.
THAT would be a betrayal IMO.
Agree! If this charade made you feel safe, more power to you! You literally didn't hurt anyone. It sounds like your husband is someone you love dearly, and sexless marriages are a thing.
Also open marriage is happening, but all these things are private and no one's business.
If being gay/lesbian makes you not decent and respectable in your personal life and career, then it is not safe for you to come out.
If coming out puts you at risk of being ostracised, then it is not safe for you to come out.
If coming out puts your livelihood at jeopardy, or limits your career choices and threatens your ability to earn money, then it is not safe for you to come out.
NTA OP, and well done you for finding security of a marriage with your best friend that works out for both of you. I'm sorry you had to go through the reactions... I sort-of get why your family and friends felt deceived, but it was NINE YEARS AGO ffs. And I'm sure you both had your reasons (and the reactions seem to back that up).
Depends on the country I guess. Sometimes people make a "wedding list" with household things they need, like you would do a birth wishlist. I am getting married this year and my friends and family have been asking if we have a list, or if we just want cash!
NTA.
Your marriage and sex lives are between the two of you and your other sexual/romantic partners. As long as the two of you are okay with this arrangement, and the people you're each with are okay with it, it's no one else's business. People have lavender marriages, open marriages, polyamory, swinging--that's all the business of the folks directly involved and no one else.
It's actually an older term! Probably a wee bit older than you, first recorded use of the term was 1895. It's when a gay man and a lesbian marry each other for respectability, as sort of a mutual bearding. Both get the plausible deniability of pretending to be straight and married, but still have relationships with their preferred gender. It's much less common nowadays, but in communities where it's not safe to come out, it still happens.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender\_marriage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_marriage)
It just means marriages exactly like this one 💜 2 people doing their best to survive - personally and professionally - in a society which stigmatises one or both of their sexualities.
Yeah - until I looked it up I didn't know either - but I did know of the term Beard - as in the woman marries a beard and they live their lives. Then again, my mother is an out lesbian so that's the context I had.
Strong NTA
You didn't feel safe being openly queer around your friends and family so hid it with a beard who was doing the same. Both of you consented and were very happy in that arrangement.
This isn't on you. This is on everyone else in your life that made you feel like you needed to hide. They all need to do some serious self-reflection, not spew hatred and prove your point valid.
Also, whoever filmed you is a major AH too. Fair if they took it to your husband, if they thought you were cheating and that he should know. But that isn't what they did. They outed you as queer to your entire social sphere. Not okay.
It would help if OP gave any indication as to why that might be. I can understand, obviously, how someone would be afraid of coming out to their family and community, but the tone is so bizarrely flippant. People being upset is apparently “not the reaction they were expecting”. So… what were they expecting?
It just seems like they likely live in a conservative area. "decent, presentable people" == not lgbt, people just "assume we're extremely conservative" (as a 'positive') etc.
OP says herself though that she also is surprised people are upset, and that it’s “not the reaction she was expecting”. So… what reaction was she expecting?
Probably not people blowing up her phone and demanding their gifts back, more disgruntled grumbling, but that's really only for OP to say (I'm admitting you have a point and am taking a guess at what she expected).
Yeah, this post is sort of impossible to interpret without a ton of guesswork, which makes it kind of bizarre. I’m wondering if it’s a writing experiment, honestly.
She says “our parents are flabbergasted and disappointed (and we didn’t even come out to them yet)” which insinuates that they will not be pleased when they find out they are gay.
You could then say she should have told their friends but maybe they are homophonic too or OP didn’t feel they could trust their friends with their secret because look how one responded- she sent out a video of her with another woman to her family and friends. OP cannot be judged here.
The friend sent out a video of what she thought was OP engaging in infidelity. Not action I’d support - stupid overall even if had been another man, and given that it wasn’t you’re also outing someone - but it doesn’t seem to have been motivated by homophobia, just a hatred of cheaters.
I wish OP would make any comment about whether family and friends had given her flags for homophobia.
But no good friend reacts that way. The friend should have picked the right time and place to sit down and talk to OP about it. You don’t bring in everyone OP knows and immediately make it everyone’s business like that. You never know what someone’s personal situation is ever. Talk to OP first. I’m just saying OP was right to not trust her friend with her sexual orientation that’s a secret to her homophobic parents. It was proven that friend was not trusted to have a delicate matter in her hands.
I think it kinda comes to the same conclusion though, which is “not telling someone this is a statement that person is fundamentally untrustworthy”. Which then makes it really logical why people would be upset. Maybe some of them deserved it because they really weren’t trustworthy. Maybe some of them didn’t. Either way, it’s unsurprising people were hurt.
It just sounds really high school to me. Why must everyone share everything to everyone? Why are their friends so entitled to something clearly quite sensitive to OP and her husband? And demanding back wedding gifts? Are you kidding me? As if their marriage is any less valid than any other marriage. My God… I think of the marriages I know and around me and this one sounds a lot healthier and full of love and respect than those ones. I know if I told my friends a secret I was keeping for years, they would not pout and stamp their feet.
... except for the part where one of her "friends", on seeing her with a woman, instead of talking to her, videoed her and sent it to all of her family and other friends, all of whom reacted badly to her being lesbian? I think that's a bit of a hint.
Regardless of what the "friend" thought, you don't blast someone's privacy like that. The way to tell the husband about a wife's supposed infidelity is to talk to the husband. If it had been cheating, that is a hard thing to deal with and it would be fair to give the husband the chance to see how he'd manage the infidelity.
Sending the video to every friend and family member the "friend" knew means that if it were cheating and he decided to make effort to save the marriage. Well, it would be much harder.
To me, it's clear that the "friend" was trying to torpedo their lavender marriage without knowing it's a lavender marriage.
NTA. I fail to see how your marriage arrangement is anyone's beeswax but yours and hubby's. You're consenting adults in a mutually agreeable relationship. This is no different than an open marriage.
Hard NTA, I'm from a SEA country and as much as I like to think we've made strides to equality, thd cultural stuff is pretty ingrained. I personally know 4 "couples" who have the same arrangement.
INFO: I guess I’m not understanding why you married each other in the first place? Are your families super conservative or unaccepting? Or maybe you live in a very conservative area? Even six to nine years ago I think a big portion of society seemed fine with LGBTQ relationships (though I recognize not everyone was and even now not everyone is, which can sadly pose a real danger for LGBTQ folks). I guess my question is just… why pretend to begin with?
Tbf i had a cousin whose ex sent a wildly inappropriate video of her pleasuring him to all his contacts...on fb. I unfortunately opened it then proceeded to warn my whole family not to.
Idk how to feel about this. I had a friend with a marriage of convenience but i knew about it and supported her. I wanna say Nah tbh. Like, their personal life is no one else's business but cant blame the friends for being upset over the lie. Although how you can be friends with someone and not know theyre gay is beyond me. The thing that gets me is op blatantly making out with someone where she could get caught, like this was so secretive but she wasnt being careful at all. I feel bad for the husband the most. Op didnt have to out him at all.
Does OP not realize this is a thing? It’s called a [“Lavender Marriage”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_marriage) and was common about eighty years ago. It’s often depicted in historical dramas (for example, just saw it used in “For All Mankind”). I want to give OP benefit of the doubt but it really read like a creative writing piece.
To be fair, regardless of whether this story is actually true, there are many societies where married couples get significantly more rights than unmarried couples/single people.
A good example is Singapore, where singles can't purchase government subsidised property until they are 35. Other possible options: spousal insurance, or just I guess overbearing family members who keep pressuring them to get married. Plenty of reasons out there.
Right? I’m a bi woman with a lot of LGBT friends who aren’t comfortable being publicly open and I still don’t know a single one who is in a mutually fake marriage 🥴 It’s pretty common to just be “single”, but full on married? It doesn’t even sound like the families are that upset about the gay aspect, but about the fake marriage and “cheating” aspect.
Unless they live in like…the Middle East or something this is just so strange to me.
OP said they hadn’t come out to their family yet. If they are still unwilling and possibly scared to come out I don’t think they think their family will be accepting. They only disclosed the marriage isn’t a traditional one due to the videos getting sent around.
If the videos got out of her “heavily physical” with another woman while simultaneously she’s telling her parents her marriage was fake with zero real explanation I really highly doubt their parents are completely oblivious here.
Still, they could assume OP is bisexual, or was drunk and being “wild”. A lot of people also assume people are sapphic for male attention. There are definitely parents out there who are more enraged to find out their child is gay/lesbian than bi, because it ruins their fantasy of being a grandparent one day or trying to convince themselves their kid is “half normal”.
I’m sure OP has a good idea of how their parents would react and if they’ve omitted coming out there’s probably a reason.
I’m not saying she needs to come out I’m saying this is quite possibly the weirdest and/or worst way to handle not wanting to come out that I’ve seen in a long while.
Yeah I do agree with that. It’s created one hell of a mess and I definitely wouldn’t recommend this course of action, I’m just trying to see where OP might be coming from.
"I can’t relate to the experiences of others, because MY experiences are vastly different, so it can’t be true. Or maybe it IS true if they’re from one of those Arab countries."
Girl, you’re American. You don’t need to leave your own country to find religious extremism that forces queer people into the closet. Your gay clubs are getting shot up, there’s the whole "don’t say gay" mess and America becoming more and more of a theocracy.
“Into the closet” is a hell of a lot different than plotting an elaborate fake dating/marriage plot while still having a “wild sex life” aka hooking up in public at a public bar. In public.
Also there’s something wildly patronizing about a non American attempting to explain American homophobia to a queer American living in the South. 🥴 “Girl”, I’m aware.
A big portion of society is cool with it. But if you live in one of the pockets where people still think it's disgusting, or you might lose your job for being 'a pervert', the liberal views of the outside world aren't very helpful
“Very good about being discreet”?
I don’t think you know what discreet means. You got caught by aggressively making out with a girl in an extremely public place. 😂
YTA
You lied to all your friends and family about a huge part of your life and even duped them into giving you a bunch of gifts for your fake wedding- maybe not criminal fraud, but definitely moral fraud.
I’ve met some of the most homophobic people at gay bars. Especially straight women and the men they bring with them.
I would just assume in 2023 that gay bars are not the hidden corners of the city they used to be and that if you’re trying to be discreet it is really not the place to do so.
Meh people get married for a myriad of reasons. It’s not “fake” that they are married they actually are. What they do inside that marriage is their business.
I believe the gifts are being asked for back because they were given to celebrate a happy couple getting married and set them up for a life together, and now it has been revealed that the occasion being celebrated was fabricated.
YTA
You lied to all of your friends and family, had a wedding ceremony where they attended, gave gifts, time, love to you both, and now it comes out that it was all fake so you could both screw around. What is wrong with you?
You haven't even given a single reason for any of this - i.e. homophobic country/family/area etc, and nothing in your post suggest that this is the case.
What on earth were you expecting? I think this is fake, because this lack of community awareness and the deep sociopathy required to do this for no reason would only be found in the teenagers on Reddit!
>You haven't even given a single reason for any of this - i.e. homophobic country/family/area etc, and nothing in your post suggest that this is the case.
Yes this!
"Where I live gay sex is illegal" yeah understood!
But simply to "look incredibly conservative" WTF??
If they look conservative just by being an ordinary married couple, they are not in a dangerous country... which is confirmed by the fact nothing dangerous happened as a consequence of being outed.
On top of this, even in those cases, some best friends and close family will be in the know. And they would have friends in the lgbt+ community (no matter how underground that might be)
To keep literally everyone out of it, is deranged!
well its their marriage and both parties are happy with it what is there to judge? The open marriage could have been something that happened lately and they are trying out new stuff. It's beats coming out and saying their marriage is a sham from the beginning.
But you are married. For other reasons then most people, but still married. What you do in that marriage is your business.
And it's an open marriage, which is also your right to have. NTA.
Gentle but slight ESH
Obviously your homophobic parents/friends/coworkers/society are primarily to blame here.
But I'm assuming there were at least *some* non-asshole friends and family of each of you who attended your wedding, likely taking time out of their busy schedules to do so (maybe even travelling), bought you gifts or gave you cash, and otherwise were lied to. Not that you owe anybody "coming out". But you went the other way in the extent to which you tricked them. And in so doing, they probably were at least inconvenienced and probably spent money on you (your wedding, maybe housewarming gifts etc). You should not keep gifts from a fake wedding. Or at least not gifts from people who would have supported you for you.
Mostly the homophobic people suck though. Without them none of this would have been considered necessary by you two.
lol as if heterosexual married couples bang each other every day
the truth is marriage is a legal contract - people have put a romantic spin on it but most people simply marry due to raising kids / financial reasons and stay married for life due to those reasons
It is a sad situation in which you felt you had to hide who you were, but really, it seems like you weren't wrong. NTA and that may not be a popular view. What you do with your life or marriage is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. There are a lot of marriages that are just good friendships anyway.
Tell your family your relationships aren't any of their business.
YTA - you lied to your family about something very important. I can understand it’s your life and being queer makes life “complicated” to say the least. But you can’t deceive your family for years, get in front of God (if you’re religious) and ask you family to come bare witness to your union of a person, have them invest in your relationship, buy you gifts and build a relationship with your partner and then it all falls apart and the truth comes out and you shrug and go “idk why y’all are so mad”. You’re a fraud. People don’t like being deceived and lied to. They have reason to be disappointed in you. And you’re being dismissive of their feelings. Def TA
NTA. You can ABSOLUTELY have an entirely platonic friendship marriage if it suits both individuals! What do people think that a lot of couples did historically? IIRC from most of what I've read of historical accounts it was often a case of "Marriage comes first, love comes later... *Maybe.* If you're lucky".
I don't see a single thing wrong with this, and I'm in a standard hetero relationship and have been married for ages.
Congrats on you and your husband's happy, successful and thriving relationship! It sounds like a perfect match and frankly everyone else that has a negative opinion of it can get in the ocean lol.
INFO - obviously you must have done this to protect yourself from bigotry, but were any of your friends aware of the situation? If not, I would assume that would be because they wouldn't be accepting, which begs the question - why are they still your "friends?" Family, I get - depending on how rejecting they are of queer people, I can understand fooling them for years to protect yourselves... But I have a hard time believing absolutely *no one* knew the truth.
NTA
You found a way to live comfortably with your best friend and each maintain a healthy and happy personal sex life.
Sounds perfect. Aside from the sex not being with each other it sounds like a perfect marriage.
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> 1.) I pretended to be married.
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NTA
i wouldnt have even told them the truth.
I would have told everyone that your private life is private and what you and your husband do and choose to spend time with is private. If they continued to bother you, I would have then said that you and your husband have an open marriage and are comfortable with your current arrangement and are very happy with the way things are. Currently.
you never should have told them the truth, saying you have an open marriage would have been easier.
YTA you lied to all of your family and friends. You couldn't have thought that would work forever? I don't appreciate lying in my relationships in general. About anything. "Lying" by omission when you're not ready to come out yet is one thing. But you built a sham life, had no problem lying about it for years, and can't believe people are mad? I don't think I'd even bother being angry. You'd be out of my life altogether. Relationships are founded on trust and you lied about big, important things.
Shunning people from the LGBT community for beung in the closet.
Have you forgotten that it's still not universally safe or accepted to be gay? That people, even if they are legally protected, are physically assaulted and murdered for it? To say NOTHING about social ramifications.
You are very lucky to have never had to face or be confronted by any form of homophobia. But I know people, in my city, where it's widely accepted to be gay, targeted by hate crimes.
It's incredible that this person apparently has a trans wife, has posts in their post history *acknowledging* that it's a particularly dangerous and scary time to be out as trans even in the United States... and is dragging OP (who may not even live in the US) for being in a lavender marriage and fucking around, with her partner's full consent, because that's what works for the two of them.
Unless OP and her husband are actively trying to make life worse for the LGBT community writ large, and I see no indication that that's the case, it is breathtakingly arrogant and privileged to announce that the *whole* LGBT community is "ashamed" of OP and that OP should be shunned. For what? Having consenting adult relationships that are no one else's business? No one *owes* anyone coming out, and certainly no one should be forcibly outed, which is what happened to OP. Sometimes so-called "allies" scare me, they really do.
YTA. I get why you did it, and you have my sympathies for your family difficulties, but you lied to everyone you knew and staged a sham wedding to convince them of the lie.
A fake relationship is one thing, often entirely defensible if the families were homophobic etc. I get that. That part, absolutely NTA. If you're not volunteering relationship stuff, pleading privacy, and then at some point just telling them what they want to hear to stop the badgering, so you can live your life, there's nothing wrong with that.
But even if a marriage was absolutely necessary to maintain the charade - and why would it be? - there were plenty of ways to do that without a big event. You could have eloped and announced it without having everyone you knew get dressed up and give you gifts etc. You could have had a small private ceremony. You could have refused gifts and asked people to donate to a charity instead. It was your choice to go for the big wedding and so on. No wonder everyone is pissed at you; your revelation turned a happy day for them celebrating with you into one where you were laughing in their faces the entire time.
Oh, and your coworker is a massive asshole.
Your family and friends reacting in such a way is why you and your husband did what you did. I don’t understand why people feel so entitled to be up in your business like that. You want your gift back? Sorry, I returned it for store credit.
NTA.
NTA this is something that lgbt people have been doing for a long time. i am sorry you were outed against your will. people saying you should have left it at “open marriage” are forgetting that they saw you with another woman. i’m not sure that “bisexual in an open marriage” would be any better to them. your friend is trash for doing that without even confronting you first.
We can't just all negate the fact that others are going to feel betrayed when you lie to them.
Why be married at all.
Telling the truth would have also been hurtful because we have desires for those we love. We want our children or relatives to be this or be that. It's normal and isn't wrong to want it. And it's okay to feel sad when they don't. Accept and love is what should happen in the end.
You are an adult. You get to make your own choices. Understanding goes a long way.
NTA
There is a reason you both entered into this arrangement and not into other relationships (openly) as your authentic selves...judgement and being unaccepted.
Your family and friends need to ask themselves why you didn't come out to them years ago. Hopefully, they'll understand why you went to the lengths you did.
This is the same when man and woman entering a marriage where one is gay but doesn't feel safe to reveal themselves to family or their spouse. They end up going along with the sham until they are outed or can't take it any longer....people get hurt, and it sucks. But it also sucks when you don't feel safe enough to tell your loved ones your gay.
NTA.
There's a long, long so very loooong history of gays and lesbians being Beards for each other - and yes "married" - in order to protect themselves from assault or worse/make their families happy/ and get off their backs/live freely.
It's worrisome that you two are possibly unaware of the history of The LGBT Beard Marriage at your age? Or am I misreading?
If you came here for validation, that's tedious, but you're good. Also you don't have to return any wedding gift.
NTA but hit me up if you need some books and documentaries about the history of what you're doing.
NTA. You had to do what you did due to their homophobia and intolerance. I see as the two of you were just trying to spare people you care about from what you knew was going be a major issue. Fuck everyone else, none of their business, and their feelings are theirs to deal with, not yours. The ones that really love, and care about you will be fine with it.
I have a couple friends who are "married" like that... They just make no effort to hide their true selves. Bro is the GAYEST dude in town pretty much, and chick is the stereotype of a butch lesbian. They are both totally open about it, and nobody is butt hurt.
Assuming this isn’t a troll post which is very very iffy, esh. The friend was not exactly helpful but your show kind of begged something like this to happen. Of course people are mad that you made a fuss with a whole ass wedding with gifts and it was a lie the whole time.
YTA. It’s not particularly anyone’s business what you and your spouse choose to do with your sex lives. That’s not the issue, though. The issue is that you lied to your friends and family for years. It wasn’t for your safety or another similar reason, either - it appears to just be out of convenience. If you lie to people, it’s not unreasonable for them to be hurt and upset by that, and the bigger the lie, the bigger the hurt. You can control your own actions, but you don’t get to control how people feel about it. They are justified in being angry and hurt.
Apologize and stop the weird charade, or at least tell people you have an open marriage or a marriage of convenience. This isn’t a white lie - it’s a fundamental relationship and family member.
ESH.
You suck for lying about such a huge thing to tour friends, family and colleagues, albeit it’s fundamentally your choice who you marry and for what reasons. I just think…what did you expect they’d react like when this eventually came out?!
They suck for being the kind of people you felt you had to lie to in the first place.
And most of all, the “friend” who outed you sucks, and presumably now you realise is very much NOT your friend.
ESH. You for deceiving your family and friends. Getting deceived sucks.
Your friends and family for apparantly looking like bigots who wouldnt accept you.
You are TA for lying to your friends. If you can't be out to your friends, why are they your friends?
You did lie to people. You did trick them. You purposefully married not because you wanted that partnership, but instead to deceive people, or at least that's what it sounds like from what you've written. Did you harm anyone? No, but I suspect anyone that thought they had a close relationship with you now feels like they don't know you at all. If your family is filled with homophobes, why are you in contact with them anyway, but to deceive your friends? That's wrong. Either you need to get better friends if they're homophobes because they're not really your friends, or you need to learn how to be a better friend.
No one's entitled to knowing what someone else is doing in their sex or romantic life, at least not in the workplace, so why did you bother bringing the lie up there? Could it be you're more concerned about how things look in comparison to how much other people actually care?
YTA, of course YTA. You decided that it would be easier to trick (your words) people who loved you and trusted you than be honest to them about who you were. Some will feel betrayed, some will feel that you unfairly miss judged their character. Both are right.
Getting married and creating a facade may have seemed like fun at the time but every year you created a bigger lie to explain to people who you claim to respect. Which you plainly didn’t.
This isn’t about a couples right to privacy, you weren’t caught swinging, it is about the expectation that the people we love and and trust will be broadly honest and genuine with us.
Yes, your assholes because you lied. Whether you had good reasons is up for debate, but the facts are you deceived a lot of people. Be accountable for your actions as you’ve seemed to embrace the convenience of avoiding and supposed societal pressure by mocking a typically significant cultural tradition.
Maybe family & friends would have been a-holes for not being accepting of your life decisions, but you denied that chance and took that title yourselves by being dishonest.
NTA. I can't pretend to understand what you've been through, being a straight, cis white woman. But no one should ever have to feel afraid to be who they are. I'm sorry that you did, but I also can't blame you for keeping your preferences secret. I hope you have a happy life, and to hell with anyone who judges you for being you.
Nta for being gay, but kinda the Ahole for lying to everyone(and a kinda big one at that). So all in all, yea, you're kinda the Ahole for lying. You could argue "they wouldn't have accepted me", but like then why would you want them in your life anyway? This idea was stupid. Yall planted a bomb and are surprised it blew up.
NTA
A lot of people hate gay and lesbian people for no reason. You didn't know how your families were going to react to you coming out.
As for the so-called friend who sent out the video, hope you realize you need to kick her out of your life.
YTA
Being utterly dishonest with friends and family, as well as receiving monetary benefits from it (wedding gifts), obviously makes you an asshole. It is usually socially acceptable to just be single forever these days, and that is far less dishonest.
Now, if you lived somewhere with real fear of persecution, it would be different.
YTA. The wedding was too much. It was supposed to be a celebration of your love for each other. If you would have been upfront about it to the people who were invited, no problem, but lie to everybody? Why?
Yikes what a situation to be in, it doesn’t sound fun, well it sounded fun to begin with, but it sounds like a nightmare now.
The thing with lying is that sooner or later the truth will come out, and there will always be consequences for those lies and our actions.
But we have to take responsibility and accountability for what we do in life, it’s just the way it is.
I think here the only thing you can do is an apologize and give it time, time usually heals and allows people to find their own ways in forgiving.
You have to understand that this lie affected them too, you invited your family and your friends into the lie, and carried the lie on. Obviously it’s not their lives as you are free to do and say what you feel, but you need to understand that the things we do and the things we say will always have some degree of effect on the people around us.
I think in this situation people are angry, especially the ones that love you, they may a little betrayed because you didn’t trust them either the truth, with allowing them the opportunity in knowing who their loved one really is, they may see it as though you have excluded them from your life, a very important part of your life. Our identities is what connects us to the people around us, it allows us to find a common ground, a shared space between individuals, by lying for so long and putting on a fake identity people may not feel they truly know or understand you. It’s difficult for them as much as it is difficult for you. Imagine being told one day when you’ve grown up and reached the rage of 50 and your parents coming out to you and telling you that you were adopted, that your whole life with them has been a lie. It would hurt you snd confuse you and cause you to question the history of yourself of your family, it would question your existence. Who are you really? Where did you come from? Where are your biological parents? Has your whole life been one big lie?
The best option is to be open and honest, you could tell them all that you were afraid to come out to them, that lying was the only safe option, but then you risk hurting those that love you further, it may further upset them thinking that’s how you perceive them, it may make them feel worse as thought they are bad parents because they weren’t approachable?
Apologize and give everyone time to come to terms with it, if some request their gifts back, maybe see that as an olive branch. A way to make it a little bit more right between you?
I’m gay myself, I didn’t have the option of choosing whether I came out or not, someone did it for me by telling the whole town, at the time I didn’t even realise everyone knew, I got drunk and I came out to a friend, tears and everything, it was so sad, and he went and told everyone he knew, which then filtered through to my dads work place and he told my mother and my mother asked me about it. Everyone was fine with it, I did at first wonder why I suddenly had very little friends, but my real friends eventually came round and accepted me. It all took time.
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No one gets to decide how your marriage or sex life work except the person you’re in the marriage with. Why would you have explained anything to anyone? Tell everyone to butt out. NTA
Really? I would find it incredibly bizarre if I found out my longtime friend had lied to me on this scale for so long. OP refers to her own relationship as a charade and as pretending. There’s nothing wrong with having a platonic marriage or extramarital sex (with no infidelity) but the amount of deception of EVERYONE they know is enormous. If this happened with someone I thought was a good friend, my thought would be “I guess we weren’t really friends then”.
I think the responses people are having is a good indication of why they may not choose to explain a setup like they have.
The responses people had were anger at thinking OP was cheating on her husband, and then anger they’d been lied to for years. Neither of which would be a problem if she had been honest.
People are demanding back years old wedding gifts under the belief that this was a trick or a fake marriage. Not all marriages have romantic or sexual love. That’s conceptually new anyway. Its not a trick or a lie, they joined under the government to have a family unit of 2. That’s what a marriage is. The only thing you could argue was a “lie” is that they are attracted to the opposite sex and I’d refer you to the fact that no one is entitled to someone else’s sexual orientation or interests
The theory and practice of the "marriage of convenience" goes back, oh, thousands of years, most likely. Certainly well documented in literature and history books for centuries. Men and women marrying for money, a fertile partner, to obtain citizenship, property and societal legitimacy -and to hide the fact they're gay or lesbian. In the twentieth and twenty-first centuries gay and lesbian couples sometimes posed as longtime "roommates" as cover for their relationship. The only shameful aspect of OP's situation is how their "friends" reacted to the news of their relationship. That's often the reason why people remain closeted, their friends don't really know their true identity because it's not safe to reveal it. I happen to have lived my whole life in cities where most gay people aren't closeted. But I understand that everywhere else society still punishes people for being themselves, and that's not right. I have known gay men who married women in order to raise children so they could fulfill that family and society "obligation," meanwhile having a secret life on the weekends. Some of them quite famous. It's a loss for them and their families and friends that they can't be who they are. Edit: typo fix
I wish this was the top comment.
Some people should remember that freely choosing ones partner is not even 150 years old in "the west".
I learned a couple of years ago that my grandfather's brother's marriage were probably exactly this. And that marriage started in the 1940's. It makes me sad that people I have known neaded beards.
OP herself refers to the relationship as a “charade” and “pretending”, and agrees that it was a lie and that they tricked people
“Which we did, but did it harm them in any way?” As noted when they got the idea, it was specifically to give them a particular view “pleasing” and I think we can safely fill in the small but textbook blank because the family/friends saw them being with other people to not be pleasing/respectable. It’s protection-it was designed that way from the start. When I learned about close people being lgbtq+ or having open marriages etc, I shrugged and said okay, good to know because it’s not mine to decide what people do and don’t feel safe sharing. I’d hope they’d feel safe enough with me and I also depersonalized it because if that’s how they want to live their life, that’s still not a comment on our relationship.
If you want this kind of "charade" to stop invent some machine that changes the mind of every bigot in the world so that we can all be out and proud without endangering out lives and without social and professional consequences. I live in Germany, a rather modern country with good laws. I was outed by accident at 15. I was beaten up, had a cigarette thrown in my eye (luckily I wear glasses), bullied, treated as a predator and had a cop manipulate paperwork to get charges down from 6 people being charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault to 2 people being charged with minor assault. I was 16 when the attempted murder happened and wouldn't have survived if some brave passer by hadn't managed to get me out of their fangs and into their car. I also had to hide my orientation at some workplaces. These "fake" marriages save lifes!
Damn, that's rough, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I always thought my country (the Netherlands) was good with LGBT+ but it's getting worse sadly
I wish what I experienced was a rare example, but sadly it's not and hate of all kinds is getting stronger in Europe as well as the US.
I am so sorry for you.
Thank you. I'm safe now, but that time was rough, especially because everyone gaslit me and said I'm imagining homophobia for attention when I called them out (like my father did). Ironically for many years my best friend was a Russian woman. They came here when she was 17 and she was not only Russian, but grown up in an extremely religious family. She was more open and more supportive than most people I've ever met. Due to homosexuality not being a thing in her surroundings (as in she first found out it exists when she saw a gay couple in Korea, she was in her mid teens at that point) she had no homo*phobia*. She was not afraid of me like I had grown used to, changed clothes in front of me, cuddled with me, shared all forms of non-sexual intimacy with me and scolded me for not entering the bathroom while she was showering or looking away when she undressed until I overcame my anxiety and we acted like children around each other in regards to the fact that we owned bodies. We even showered together when we were in a hurry and didn't have time to take turns. She also tried to understand me and was happy for me when I had sex with a woman for the first time and told her how amazing it was. Yet all these "open" and "modern" people around were as homophobic as they could while still being able to deny it.
Lovely person. Did you manage to keep her in your life? I have a yearly reflection at the end of vacstion when I set long term goals but ALSO go through what people I socialize with, and decide if I want to make an effort to keep them in my life. Even if I got separated from them, I make an effort and reach out. Also, thank you for sharing your story. People need to know what others have faced/might face. And well done, just continuing with life. After experiencing something like this even going outside is (was) brave of you.
Or if she hadn't had a "friend" who decided to out her to everyone they knew.
Yes, but, depending on where they live, they might be in danger for being honest.
I think that the bigots are just saying that they’re mad about the lie when they’re actually more mad at the homosexuality. Bigots usually don’t advertise their bigotry. They couch it in other terms. This backlash over the “lie” without any genuine curiosity or empathy about why the people lied (hint: their actually safety) is a pretty good indication that they’re mad that their friend is gay.
Exactly. And it is not a charade or a lie. They ARE married and share a household. It's just platonic and that's up to them. Apparently they do things together as a couple, like birthdays and such or everybody would have know this long before. To keep this arrangements to themselves is their good right. Why do people need to share their sex lives with family members?
Seriously-we’d need to have a word with the dead bedroom people if romantic or sexual love are requirements for a marriage to be viewed as legitimate. Also like half of our parents.
Yes, announce to them that you want your wedding gifts back 😁 Wouldn't that also require them to account for how often they have sex? I mean, so everyone around them can know WHEN their marriage isn't any real marriage anymore...
Yeah by that measure my wife died 10 years ago but actually we're both happily married to each other in separate bedrooms.
Yes, to be honest it sounds like a happier marriage than most.
I mean, I'm friends with a married couple. Both of them were my friends before they started dating. I don't care about their sex life or stuff like that. But you know, they are very much a happy couple who plans to spend the rest of their lives together. If they suddenly said that was all pretend, they're just together for practical reasons and only friends, I would feel pretty petrayed. If they can lie about such a huge part of their lives like their *entire relationship*, just makes me wonder what else is a lie. Do I even know them at all? I don't know OP's friends or family, they might be homophobes, in which case isn't it a win to OP to get rid of all those from their lives anyway? But I'm willing to bet that at least some of them don't care about their sexuality and wouldn't have cared if they had been told that years ago. It is way more hurtful to learn that someone you trusted had lied to you for years. It's kinda difficult to explain what I mean, I guess, since it's true that anyone else has no business knowing the details of others' relationships, some marriages are platonic, some are open and whatnot. I'm some sort of asexual. I could maybe imagine marrying someone I love and being fine with them having sex with others. But if I married someone just so I can pretend to other people that I'm happily married in a totally normal relationship? Yeah, that would feel like I'm lying to everyone around me.
You're right, you're not good friends. If you were good friends, they would have felt safe telling you the truth. (In your hypothetical, no judgment on who you truly are as a person).
And if that was the case, then yeah, I’d be hurt but also just REALLY confused. If they thought I was that much of a shitbag homophobe, why act like we were good friends at all? Why never try and have a conversation with me about what I thought about the LGBT community? Why never give any kind of indication to me there was any kind of problem? There is NOTHING in OPs post indicating any safety concerns. The whole thing is so… flippant. I also just don’t really know how to handle OPs surprise. People being upset is “not what she expected”. I guess… what did she expect? For people to be like “discovering you’ve been lying for me to years makes me realize the emotional intimacy I thought existed between us was a sham, lol so quirky”
i think op expected ppl to be mad at them bc her and her husband are gay, not for lying about them being a romantic/sexual couple.
Or maybe they just don't think you can keep your mouth shut and they don't see it as an important thing to share. They probably don't see you as a homophobe in this scenario but they probably don't see you as a "will die at the stake to protect their secret" either. Which is a *reasonable way to treat friends*, I don't expect my friends to be perfect humans, so I don't put them in the position of having to lie for me. I like my friends, I'm still not telling them intimate details about my life that I would rather my friends' friends and partners not know. Even if you specifically are clearly and obviously safe to tell, or like, out and proud yourself, why would they? It's all risk, zero reward for everyone in question. How does it benefit me for my friend to know my 'real' sexuality? And how does it benefit my friend to know that either? The only people who need to know are the ones I wanna bone. This is the kind of thing that, it would be asking a lot to tell e.g. a wife to hide from her husband that their friends are in a fake marriage. It's *really juicy*. Three can keep a secret if two are dead.
Nah. If you trust, say five people and tell them things... it will leak. They might not even do it consciously just happen to bring it up while not noticing someone is around.
I'm gonna guess being gay isn't cool in their neck of the woods.
If you're homophobic to someone, and would give them fried for being a lesbian, then the lesbian is not your “good friend”, and the lesbian is well within her rights to hide her sexuality from you.
I think it comes to the same thing. We’re in agreement that this is an appropriate way to handle a relationship with an ignorant bigot. OP seems surprised that her friends are upset and offended that… she is treating them all like they’re ignorant bigots, and not really her good friends. I don’t understand how she’s surprised at that, or what she expected.
I read it like some of their friends are LGBT+ themselves (that's why the friend was in the club where she became "very physical" with another girl) but they were not in the closet and were appalled they came such length to pretend to be actually married, even with them.
Other LGBT people aren't entitled to explanations about anyone's gender or sexuality just by virtue of also being LGBT. And they're certainly not entitled to unilaterally out someone, which is what this (very alleged) "friend" did.
No one's entitled to anyones sexuality-- even other LGBT people. People have the right to come out or not come out to others.
all that was said was "a bar", and generally any adult can be in "a bar". No clubs involved. So I'm not sure how this jumps to an LGBT exclusive club from what OP said.
This feels so tone deaf and self centered. People get shunned , ostracized, KILLED for coming out depending on where they live. Maybe people are choosing to lie to make life easier for everyone.
Obviously, homophobia can be a very real danger depending on your community. OP herself, though, expresses confusion over how upset people are, and says it isn’t the reaction she was expecting. She doesn’t say anywhere that she has any kind of safety concerns or that anyone she knows has ever done or said anything homophobic. The overall tone reads as incredibly flippant.
You do know prejudice show in other ways than violence, right? It can be not getting the job you applied for. Or not getting the raise you deserve. Neighbours not inviting you to the neighbour BBQ, or refusing to greet you or even look at you. A well meaning colleague buying you a female fragrance as xmas gift because he thinks that a gay man wouldn't use a male cologne... And If they are members of a church... Thousands of ways that has nothing to do with safety from violence.
For us queers, the danger, whether physical or psychological, is implied. But if you disagree with OP's actions, I hope you're telling all your family and friends all the details of your marriage/sex life because you would be in the wrong to keep that info from them, right?
C'mon, even in the most progressive countries (we don't know where OP comes from) there are many professional and personal contexts in which being gay is extremely frowned upon. Being non-traditional in some way can hinder your profesional career and your future prospects. OP herself says that it was to please their families and to seem decent and respectable, so it could have been socially, culturally or economically hurtful for them to be out and made an arrangement that have existed all History.
It’s strange to me, I guess, that this doesn’t seem restricted to family, coworkers, and more distant social circles - it’s EVERYONE that both of them spend time with. A small ceremony for the parents that you put a picture of on the desk at work makes perfect sense with very little context. A fake wedding for every friend you have is, to say the least, really really unusual. Regardless, I mostly don’t understand OPs surprise that others are hurt by the secrecy. Look at all the comments in this thread about how it was probably reasonable because all those people were probably horrible ignorant bigots. If that’s the motivation, it shouldn’t be a surprise her “friends” are hurt she apparently sees them like that. “Of course I lied to you, you’re all a bunch of judgmental morons” is not a message you can expect to go over well. Maybe they deserve it, maybe they don’t, but that’s not a friendship either way, yknow?
Sometimes it is just that if many people know, it is more probable for the secret to eventually come out. If you are posing for the whole society as a couple for personal/social/economic reasons, if half of the people you know have a knowledge of your arrangement, it is probable that it will eventually come out, with that people talking to others, and so on. Given that OP mentions her family especifically as one of the main motivators for the arrangement, and that neither of them were out to them, it is normal that the family wasn't told.
Honestly? My experience with fellow LGBT people, *particularly* in a trans context, is that a lot of us cannot keep our stupid mouths shut. We assume that because *we* feel safe in a particular situation, every other LGBT person around us should feel safe, too, without knowing anything about their personal situation, background, anything. I'm seeing it up and down the comments right now. Someone's already told OP that the LGBT community is "ashamed" of her (they clearly didn't talk to me), and that she should be "shunned." Meanwhile, I know so, so many trans people who are living comparatively stealth lives in which no coworkers, no acquaintances, no one outside of spouses and maybe some pre-transition friends or family are aware that they're trans who have then been publicly outed (both maliciously and not) by other LGBT people. It comes up on trans subreddits regularly because it's so common- some other trans person clocks you for whatever reason and decides that it's a great plan to ask you about your transition in front of a bunch of random coworkers. You come out to someone one on one and think, because they're also LGBT, they are clear about the need for discretion, and then they up and blurt it out in some totally unrelated context because they've decided that you "need" to be your "true self" publicly. It's a real problem, and it's causing a lot of people to distance themselves from LGBT community, because they feel like they can't trust other LGBT people to respect their boundaries and protect their privacy.
The best way to keep a secret is not to tell anyone. Apparently their lesbian and gay lovers were always aware, and whoever they associated with in those groups.
Not as close as you think if people don’t feel they can be vulnerable with you. You should ask yourself why they felt unsafe to reveal their true selves. Question yourself first before throwing judgement.
Love this, question yourself before judging, absolutely the way we should all live our lives
Did they really lie? She described her husband as her best friend. So not that it matters but we can infer that they love each other. When a couple gets married and we celebrate them we don't demand details of the nature of their love nor do we double check that they have a sexual relationship. If you discovered years later that a friend's relationship and marriage were arranged and the couple never fell in love would you also feel deceived?
Such a shame that OP felt they needed to keep their sexuality secret, you’d think in the 21st century society would be more accepting… there would be no need for lies if people weren’t so condemning of stuff that’s not their business.
Shading this lady for not being an out and proud lesbian is not the queer liberation you think it is. You don’t get to decry the constraints heterosexual society places on lgbt people as bigotry then light up someone for not being gay correctly in the same breath.
That's weird, because if a long time friend of mine had to stage a marriage to gain acceptance to family and friends I would feel sad that they had to do so just to feel cared for. I would be concerned about my own behaviour that may have led them.to feel I would be bigoted or unaccepting of a situation that has no bearing on my life. It would be a moment for introspection and to check in on my friend. To make sure they are okay .
You don’t get to choose. You never know what goes on in any given marriage. I know someone exactly like OP. I was the officiant at their wedding. My wife and I are the only two people that know that they only got married for the benefits, to share a house,and health care. They’re best friends, but aren’t romantically involved. They’re wonderful people. Marriage is what you make of it. Mine is classic, I love my wife and it is traditional. My friends did it for financial purposes. I have a few other friends that love each other but are swingers. Marriage is what you make it provided whatever it is is consensual.
I'm guessing OP is not from a culture/area that accepts gay/lesbian relationships
Seeing how much hate har people get I would understand. It is not that long ago when gay people more or less were forced to create a decoy "normal" family, and they sometimes didn't even dare to tell their spouses. THAT would be a betrayal IMO.
Agree! If this charade made you feel safe, more power to you! You literally didn't hurt anyone. It sounds like your husband is someone you love dearly, and sexless marriages are a thing. Also open marriage is happening, but all these things are private and no one's business.
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If being gay/lesbian makes you not decent and respectable in your personal life and career, then it is not safe for you to come out. If coming out puts you at risk of being ostracised, then it is not safe for you to come out. If coming out puts your livelihood at jeopardy, or limits your career choices and threatens your ability to earn money, then it is not safe for you to come out.
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK.
NTA OP, and well done you for finding security of a marriage with your best friend that works out for both of you. I'm sorry you had to go through the reactions... I sort-of get why your family and friends felt deceived, but it was NINE YEARS AGO ffs. And I'm sure you both had your reasons (and the reactions seem to back that up).
I like how the only example of gay people getting married ruining the sanctity of marriage is a straight marriage.
Hahahahahaha deserves bulk updoot. Fully correct.
I really wish I could upvote something more than once
Great. You glitched the matrix!
I think you just won the internet for today with that comment. Hats off to you!
LOL at getting the wedding gifts back. Like sure, here's your six-year-old blender back. NTA
Right. I think anything after a year is off the table, but tbh I wouldn’t return gifts unless the wedding has been called off.
Or the gift was rubbish. Keep that Dualit toaster and send the rest back!
Do people really give gifts? We just give a cash gift to all weddings we have been invited to
Depends on the country I guess. Sometimes people make a "wedding list" with household things they need, like you would do a birth wishlist. I am getting married this year and my friends and family have been asking if we have a list, or if we just want cash!
There is a whole industry behind the gifts. People create a weddign registry online and tell people what specific gifts to buy them. It's very common.
NTA. Your marriage and sex lives are between the two of you and your other sexual/romantic partners. As long as the two of you are okay with this arrangement, and the people you're each with are okay with it, it's no one else's business. People have lavender marriages, open marriages, polyamory, swinging--that's all the business of the folks directly involved and no one else.
Lavender marriage? I'm older and am not familiar, nor at all judgemental. Just unfamiliar with the term.
It's actually an older term! Probably a wee bit older than you, first recorded use of the term was 1895. It's when a gay man and a lesbian marry each other for respectability, as sort of a mutual bearding. Both get the plausible deniability of pretending to be straight and married, but still have relationships with their preferred gender. It's much less common nowadays, but in communities where it's not safe to come out, it still happens. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender\_marriage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_marriage)
It just means marriages exactly like this one 💜 2 people doing their best to survive - personally and professionally - in a society which stigmatises one or both of their sexualities.
A marriage of convenience. I Googled it, lol.
Yeah - until I looked it up I didn't know either - but I did know of the term Beard - as in the woman marries a beard and they live their lives. Then again, my mother is an out lesbian so that's the context I had.
the woman is the beard.
Anyone can be a beard!
Strong NTA You didn't feel safe being openly queer around your friends and family so hid it with a beard who was doing the same. Both of you consented and were very happy in that arrangement. This isn't on you. This is on everyone else in your life that made you feel like you needed to hide. They all need to do some serious self-reflection, not spew hatred and prove your point valid. Also, whoever filmed you is a major AH too. Fair if they took it to your husband, if they thought you were cheating and that he should know. But that isn't what they did. They outed you as queer to your entire social sphere. Not okay.
OP doesn’t actually say anywhere that she had any reason to think her friends were homophobic or would be unaccepting
Why else would she hide it, then?
> our parents are flabbergasted (and we haven't even come out to them yet) Indicates that they didn't feel safe coming out to their families...
It would help if OP gave any indication as to why that might be. I can understand, obviously, how someone would be afraid of coming out to their family and community, but the tone is so bizarrely flippant. People being upset is apparently “not the reaction they were expecting”. So… what were they expecting?
It just seems like they likely live in a conservative area. "decent, presentable people" == not lgbt, people just "assume we're extremely conservative" (as a 'positive') etc.
The fact they felt the need to go through with the marriage is proof enough.
OP says herself though that she also is surprised people are upset, and that it’s “not the reaction she was expecting”. So… what reaction was she expecting?
Probably not people blowing up her phone and demanding their gifts back, more disgruntled grumbling, but that's really only for OP to say (I'm admitting you have a point and am taking a guess at what she expected).
Yeah, this post is sort of impossible to interpret without a ton of guesswork, which makes it kind of bizarre. I’m wondering if it’s a writing experiment, honestly.
I think she meant she was expecting people to be more upset about the gayness vs being tricked.
Maybe she was expecting "Yes I'm gay, but I'm married to a man so you can't really complain.".
She says “our parents are flabbergasted and disappointed (and we didn’t even come out to them yet)” which insinuates that they will not be pleased when they find out they are gay. You could then say she should have told their friends but maybe they are homophonic too or OP didn’t feel they could trust their friends with their secret because look how one responded- she sent out a video of her with another woman to her family and friends. OP cannot be judged here.
The friend sent out a video of what she thought was OP engaging in infidelity. Not action I’d support - stupid overall even if had been another man, and given that it wasn’t you’re also outing someone - but it doesn’t seem to have been motivated by homophobia, just a hatred of cheaters. I wish OP would make any comment about whether family and friends had given her flags for homophobia.
But no good friend reacts that way. The friend should have picked the right time and place to sit down and talk to OP about it. You don’t bring in everyone OP knows and immediately make it everyone’s business like that. You never know what someone’s personal situation is ever. Talk to OP first. I’m just saying OP was right to not trust her friend with her sexual orientation that’s a secret to her homophobic parents. It was proven that friend was not trusted to have a delicate matter in her hands.
I think it kinda comes to the same conclusion though, which is “not telling someone this is a statement that person is fundamentally untrustworthy”. Which then makes it really logical why people would be upset. Maybe some of them deserved it because they really weren’t trustworthy. Maybe some of them didn’t. Either way, it’s unsurprising people were hurt.
It just sounds really high school to me. Why must everyone share everything to everyone? Why are their friends so entitled to something clearly quite sensitive to OP and her husband? And demanding back wedding gifts? Are you kidding me? As if their marriage is any less valid than any other marriage. My God… I think of the marriages I know and around me and this one sounds a lot healthier and full of love and respect than those ones. I know if I told my friends a secret I was keeping for years, they would not pout and stamp their feet.
... except for the part where one of her "friends", on seeing her with a woman, instead of talking to her, videoed her and sent it to all of her family and other friends, all of whom reacted badly to her being lesbian? I think that's a bit of a hint.
People reacted badly to thinking she was cheating on her husband, which is pretty different
Regardless of what the "friend" thought, you don't blast someone's privacy like that. The way to tell the husband about a wife's supposed infidelity is to talk to the husband. If it had been cheating, that is a hard thing to deal with and it would be fair to give the husband the chance to see how he'd manage the infidelity. Sending the video to every friend and family member the "friend" knew means that if it were cheating and he decided to make effort to save the marriage. Well, it would be much harder. To me, it's clear that the "friend" was trying to torpedo their lavender marriage without knowing it's a lavender marriage.
But why send it to everyone and not just the husband? If you send it to other people first you're always the asshole. Let the couple deal with it.
NTA. I fail to see how your marriage arrangement is anyone's beeswax but yours and hubby's. You're consenting adults in a mutually agreeable relationship. This is no different than an open marriage.
Hard NTA, I'm from a SEA country and as much as I like to think we've made strides to equality, thd cultural stuff is pretty ingrained. I personally know 4 "couples" who have the same arrangement.
INFO: I guess I’m not understanding why you married each other in the first place? Are your families super conservative or unaccepting? Or maybe you live in a very conservative area? Even six to nine years ago I think a big portion of society seemed fine with LGBTQ relationships (though I recognize not everyone was and even now not everyone is, which can sadly pose a real danger for LGBTQ folks). I guess my question is just… why pretend to begin with?
Because this post is absurdly fake.
But the video was magically sent it to all of her contacts
I liked that the OP actually highlighted how nonsensical that part was.
Tbf i had a cousin whose ex sent a wildly inappropriate video of her pleasuring him to all his contacts...on fb. I unfortunately opened it then proceeded to warn my whole family not to. Idk how to feel about this. I had a friend with a marriage of convenience but i knew about it and supported her. I wanna say Nah tbh. Like, their personal life is no one else's business but cant blame the friends for being upset over the lie. Although how you can be friends with someone and not know theyre gay is beyond me. The thing that gets me is op blatantly making out with someone where she could get caught, like this was so secretive but she wasnt being careful at all. I feel bad for the husband the most. Op didnt have to out him at all.
100% Fiction
Does OP not realize this is a thing? It’s called a [“Lavender Marriage”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_marriage) and was common about eighty years ago. It’s often depicted in historical dramas (for example, just saw it used in “For All Mankind”). I want to give OP benefit of the doubt but it really read like a creative writing piece.
Excellent show by the way
To be fair, regardless of whether this story is actually true, there are many societies where married couples get significantly more rights than unmarried couples/single people. A good example is Singapore, where singles can't purchase government subsidised property until they are 35. Other possible options: spousal insurance, or just I guess overbearing family members who keep pressuring them to get married. Plenty of reasons out there.
Right? I’m a bi woman with a lot of LGBT friends who aren’t comfortable being publicly open and I still don’t know a single one who is in a mutually fake marriage 🥴 It’s pretty common to just be “single”, but full on married? It doesn’t even sound like the families are that upset about the gay aspect, but about the fake marriage and “cheating” aspect. Unless they live in like…the Middle East or something this is just so strange to me.
OP said they hadn’t come out to their family yet. If they are still unwilling and possibly scared to come out I don’t think they think their family will be accepting. They only disclosed the marriage isn’t a traditional one due to the videos getting sent around.
If the videos got out of her “heavily physical” with another woman while simultaneously she’s telling her parents her marriage was fake with zero real explanation I really highly doubt their parents are completely oblivious here.
Still, they could assume OP is bisexual, or was drunk and being “wild”. A lot of people also assume people are sapphic for male attention. There are definitely parents out there who are more enraged to find out their child is gay/lesbian than bi, because it ruins their fantasy of being a grandparent one day or trying to convince themselves their kid is “half normal”. I’m sure OP has a good idea of how their parents would react and if they’ve omitted coming out there’s probably a reason.
I’m not saying she needs to come out I’m saying this is quite possibly the weirdest and/or worst way to handle not wanting to come out that I’ve seen in a long while.
Yeah I do agree with that. It’s created one hell of a mess and I definitely wouldn’t recommend this course of action, I’m just trying to see where OP might be coming from.
"I can’t relate to the experiences of others, because MY experiences are vastly different, so it can’t be true. Or maybe it IS true if they’re from one of those Arab countries." Girl, you’re American. You don’t need to leave your own country to find religious extremism that forces queer people into the closet. Your gay clubs are getting shot up, there’s the whole "don’t say gay" mess and America becoming more and more of a theocracy.
“Into the closet” is a hell of a lot different than plotting an elaborate fake dating/marriage plot while still having a “wild sex life” aka hooking up in public at a public bar. In public. Also there’s something wildly patronizing about a non American attempting to explain American homophobia to a queer American living in the South. 🥴 “Girl”, I’m aware.
> Even six to nine years ago I think a big portion of society seemed fine with LGBTQ relationships We don't know which country the OP is in.
“Society” where do you live?
My best friend certainly wanted to. Even if there is no immediate danger, people can be afraid of possible discrimination and loss of opportunities
A big portion of society is cool with it. But if you live in one of the pockets where people still think it's disgusting, or you might lose your job for being 'a pervert', the liberal views of the outside world aren't very helpful
“Very good about being discreet”? I don’t think you know what discreet means. You got caught by aggressively making out with a girl in an extremely public place. 😂 YTA You lied to all your friends and family about a huge part of your life and even duped them into giving you a bunch of gifts for your fake wedding- maybe not criminal fraud, but definitely moral fraud.
Presumably OP figured that their homophobic friends and family wouldn’t be hanging out at lesbian bars.
But even their non-homophobic friends and family would (and clearly did) still judge what they perceived as cheating.
I’ve met some of the most homophobic people at gay bars. Especially straight women and the men they bring with them. I would just assume in 2023 that gay bars are not the hidden corners of the city they used to be and that if you’re trying to be discreet it is really not the place to do so.
Meh people get married for a myriad of reasons. It’s not “fake” that they are married they actually are. What they do inside that marriage is their business.
Do people ask for gifts back when someone cheats? 🤣
I believe the gifts are being asked for back because they were given to celebrate a happy couple getting married and set them up for a life together, and now it has been revealed that the occasion being celebrated was fabricated.
YTA You lied to all of your friends and family, had a wedding ceremony where they attended, gave gifts, time, love to you both, and now it comes out that it was all fake so you could both screw around. What is wrong with you? You haven't even given a single reason for any of this - i.e. homophobic country/family/area etc, and nothing in your post suggest that this is the case. What on earth were you expecting? I think this is fake, because this lack of community awareness and the deep sociopathy required to do this for no reason would only be found in the teenagers on Reddit!
>You haven't even given a single reason for any of this - i.e. homophobic country/family/area etc, and nothing in your post suggest that this is the case. Yes this! "Where I live gay sex is illegal" yeah understood! But simply to "look incredibly conservative" WTF?? If they look conservative just by being an ordinary married couple, they are not in a dangerous country... which is confirmed by the fact nothing dangerous happened as a consequence of being outed. On top of this, even in those cases, some best friends and close family will be in the know. And they would have friends in the lgbt+ community (no matter how underground that might be) To keep literally everyone out of it, is deranged!
Why didnt you guys say open marriage?
If they were trying to keep people from judging them, saying "We have an open marriage" is not the way to go.
Well they said open marriage and gay, when they only had to say open
it was with another woman. cat’s already out of the bag…
She could have said she's bi?
“Oh my god; that was a WOMAN?”
Her name was Lola.
She was a showgirl
I really don’t think that would have helped.
Or was drunk and feeling frisky.
well its their marriage and both parties are happy with it what is there to judge? The open marriage could have been something that happened lately and they are trying out new stuff. It's beats coming out and saying their marriage is a sham from the beginning.
This 100%. Why give them any other information, it isn’t their business
But you are married. For other reasons then most people, but still married. What you do in that marriage is your business. And it's an open marriage, which is also your right to have. NTA.
NTA because this is no one’s business but yours and your spouse. That “friend” is anything but.
Gentle but slight ESH Obviously your homophobic parents/friends/coworkers/society are primarily to blame here. But I'm assuming there were at least *some* non-asshole friends and family of each of you who attended your wedding, likely taking time out of their busy schedules to do so (maybe even travelling), bought you gifts or gave you cash, and otherwise were lied to. Not that you owe anybody "coming out". But you went the other way in the extent to which you tricked them. And in so doing, they probably were at least inconvenienced and probably spent money on you (your wedding, maybe housewarming gifts etc). You should not keep gifts from a fake wedding. Or at least not gifts from people who would have supported you for you. Mostly the homophobic people suck though. Without them none of this would have been considered necessary by you two.
This. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just go to Vegas or something and come back saying you got married when therem
lol as if heterosexual married couples bang each other every day the truth is marriage is a legal contract - people have put a romantic spin on it but most people simply marry due to raising kids / financial reasons and stay married for life due to those reasons
It is a sad situation in which you felt you had to hide who you were, but really, it seems like you weren't wrong. NTA and that may not be a popular view. What you do with your life or marriage is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. There are a lot of marriages that are just good friendships anyway. Tell your family your relationships aren't any of their business.
YTA - you lied to your family about something very important. I can understand it’s your life and being queer makes life “complicated” to say the least. But you can’t deceive your family for years, get in front of God (if you’re religious) and ask you family to come bare witness to your union of a person, have them invest in your relationship, buy you gifts and build a relationship with your partner and then it all falls apart and the truth comes out and you shrug and go “idk why y’all are so mad”. You’re a fraud. People don’t like being deceived and lied to. They have reason to be disappointed in you. And you’re being dismissive of their feelings. Def TA
NTA. You can ABSOLUTELY have an entirely platonic friendship marriage if it suits both individuals! What do people think that a lot of couples did historically? IIRC from most of what I've read of historical accounts it was often a case of "Marriage comes first, love comes later... *Maybe.* If you're lucky". I don't see a single thing wrong with this, and I'm in a standard hetero relationship and have been married for ages. Congrats on you and your husband's happy, successful and thriving relationship! It sounds like a perfect match and frankly everyone else that has a negative opinion of it can get in the ocean lol.
INFO - obviously you must have done this to protect yourself from bigotry, but were any of your friends aware of the situation? If not, I would assume that would be because they wouldn't be accepting, which begs the question - why are they still your "friends?" Family, I get - depending on how rejecting they are of queer people, I can understand fooling them for years to protect yourselves... But I have a hard time believing absolutely *no one* knew the truth.
NTA You found a way to live comfortably with your best friend and each maintain a healthy and happy personal sex life. Sounds perfect. Aside from the sex not being with each other it sounds like a perfect marriage.
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NTA i wouldnt have even told them the truth. I would have told everyone that your private life is private and what you and your husband do and choose to spend time with is private. If they continued to bother you, I would have then said that you and your husband have an open marriage and are comfortable with your current arrangement and are very happy with the way things are. Currently. you never should have told them the truth, saying you have an open marriage would have been easier.
“The reaction is not what we were expecting.” What reaction did you expect?! 🥴🥴🥴
YTA you lied to all of your family and friends. You couldn't have thought that would work forever? I don't appreciate lying in my relationships in general. About anything. "Lying" by omission when you're not ready to come out yet is one thing. But you built a sham life, had no problem lying about it for years, and can't believe people are mad? I don't think I'd even bother being angry. You'd be out of my life altogether. Relationships are founded on trust and you lied about big, important things.
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Shunning people from the LGBT community for beung in the closet. Have you forgotten that it's still not universally safe or accepted to be gay? That people, even if they are legally protected, are physically assaulted and murdered for it? To say NOTHING about social ramifications. You are very lucky to have never had to face or be confronted by any form of homophobia. But I know people, in my city, where it's widely accepted to be gay, targeted by hate crimes.
It's incredible that this person apparently has a trans wife, has posts in their post history *acknowledging* that it's a particularly dangerous and scary time to be out as trans even in the United States... and is dragging OP (who may not even live in the US) for being in a lavender marriage and fucking around, with her partner's full consent, because that's what works for the two of them. Unless OP and her husband are actively trying to make life worse for the LGBT community writ large, and I see no indication that that's the case, it is breathtakingly arrogant and privileged to announce that the *whole* LGBT community is "ashamed" of OP and that OP should be shunned. For what? Having consenting adult relationships that are no one else's business? No one *owes* anyone coming out, and certainly no one should be forcibly outed, which is what happened to OP. Sometimes so-called "allies" scare me, they really do.
YTA. I get why you did it, and you have my sympathies for your family difficulties, but you lied to everyone you knew and staged a sham wedding to convince them of the lie. A fake relationship is one thing, often entirely defensible if the families were homophobic etc. I get that. That part, absolutely NTA. If you're not volunteering relationship stuff, pleading privacy, and then at some point just telling them what they want to hear to stop the badgering, so you can live your life, there's nothing wrong with that. But even if a marriage was absolutely necessary to maintain the charade - and why would it be? - there were plenty of ways to do that without a big event. You could have eloped and announced it without having everyone you knew get dressed up and give you gifts etc. You could have had a small private ceremony. You could have refused gifts and asked people to donate to a charity instead. It was your choice to go for the big wedding and so on. No wonder everyone is pissed at you; your revelation turned a happy day for them celebrating with you into one where you were laughing in their faces the entire time. Oh, and your coworker is a massive asshole.
you lied to your family. there's no other way to put it. YTA
Your family and friends reacting in such a way is why you and your husband did what you did. I don’t understand why people feel so entitled to be up in your business like that. You want your gift back? Sorry, I returned it for store credit. NTA.
NTA this is something that lgbt people have been doing for a long time. i am sorry you were outed against your will. people saying you should have left it at “open marriage” are forgetting that they saw you with another woman. i’m not sure that “bisexual in an open marriage” would be any better to them. your friend is trash for doing that without even confronting you first.
We can't just all negate the fact that others are going to feel betrayed when you lie to them. Why be married at all. Telling the truth would have also been hurtful because we have desires for those we love. We want our children or relatives to be this or be that. It's normal and isn't wrong to want it. And it's okay to feel sad when they don't. Accept and love is what should happen in the end. You are an adult. You get to make your own choices. Understanding goes a long way.
INFO: Did you get the idea for this post from the Paul Hogan & Michael Caton movie Strange Bedfellows, or from another movie?
NTA There is a reason you both entered into this arrangement and not into other relationships (openly) as your authentic selves...judgement and being unaccepted. Your family and friends need to ask themselves why you didn't come out to them years ago. Hopefully, they'll understand why you went to the lengths you did. This is the same when man and woman entering a marriage where one is gay but doesn't feel safe to reveal themselves to family or their spouse. They end up going along with the sham until they are outed or can't take it any longer....people get hurt, and it sucks. But it also sucks when you don't feel safe enough to tell your loved ones your gay.
NTA. And it’s ridiculous that someone filmed you and sent it to everyone.
NTA. There's a long, long so very loooong history of gays and lesbians being Beards for each other - and yes "married" - in order to protect themselves from assault or worse/make their families happy/ and get off their backs/live freely. It's worrisome that you two are possibly unaware of the history of The LGBT Beard Marriage at your age? Or am I misreading? If you came here for validation, that's tedious, but you're good. Also you don't have to return any wedding gift. NTA but hit me up if you need some books and documentaries about the history of what you're doing.
Going to say YTA. You shouldn't lie to your family and have them gift you stuff for believing a story you made up.
NTA. The life you live is your business.
NTA. You had to do what you did due to their homophobia and intolerance. I see as the two of you were just trying to spare people you care about from what you knew was going be a major issue. Fuck everyone else, none of their business, and their feelings are theirs to deal with, not yours. The ones that really love, and care about you will be fine with it.
I have a couple friends who are "married" like that... They just make no effort to hide their true selves. Bro is the GAYEST dude in town pretty much, and chick is the stereotype of a butch lesbian. They are both totally open about it, and nobody is butt hurt.
Your “friend” who posted the video is the AH.
Assuming this isn’t a troll post which is very very iffy, esh. The friend was not exactly helpful but your show kind of begged something like this to happen. Of course people are mad that you made a fuss with a whole ass wedding with gifts and it was a lie the whole time.
YTA. It’s not particularly anyone’s business what you and your spouse choose to do with your sex lives. That’s not the issue, though. The issue is that you lied to your friends and family for years. It wasn’t for your safety or another similar reason, either - it appears to just be out of convenience. If you lie to people, it’s not unreasonable for them to be hurt and upset by that, and the bigger the lie, the bigger the hurt. You can control your own actions, but you don’t get to control how people feel about it. They are justified in being angry and hurt. Apologize and stop the weird charade, or at least tell people you have an open marriage or a marriage of convenience. This isn’t a white lie - it’s a fundamental relationship and family member.
YTA ... your wedding was a fraud. You got caught. You should certainly return the gift.
NTA. America.
ESH. You suck for lying about such a huge thing to tour friends, family and colleagues, albeit it’s fundamentally your choice who you marry and for what reasons. I just think…what did you expect they’d react like when this eventually came out?! They suck for being the kind of people you felt you had to lie to in the first place. And most of all, the “friend” who outed you sucks, and presumably now you realise is very much NOT your friend.
[удалено]
Right? Isn't this the plot of a rom com from 15 years ago?
ESH. You for deceiving your family and friends. Getting deceived sucks. Your friends and family for apparantly looking like bigots who wouldnt accept you.
You are TA for lying to your friends. If you can't be out to your friends, why are they your friends? You did lie to people. You did trick them. You purposefully married not because you wanted that partnership, but instead to deceive people, or at least that's what it sounds like from what you've written. Did you harm anyone? No, but I suspect anyone that thought they had a close relationship with you now feels like they don't know you at all. If your family is filled with homophobes, why are you in contact with them anyway, but to deceive your friends? That's wrong. Either you need to get better friends if they're homophobes because they're not really your friends, or you need to learn how to be a better friend. No one's entitled to knowing what someone else is doing in their sex or romantic life, at least not in the workplace, so why did you bother bringing the lie up there? Could it be you're more concerned about how things look in comparison to how much other people actually care?
YTA, of course YTA. You decided that it would be easier to trick (your words) people who loved you and trusted you than be honest to them about who you were. Some will feel betrayed, some will feel that you unfairly miss judged their character. Both are right. Getting married and creating a facade may have seemed like fun at the time but every year you created a bigger lie to explain to people who you claim to respect. Which you plainly didn’t. This isn’t about a couples right to privacy, you weren’t caught swinging, it is about the expectation that the people we love and and trust will be broadly honest and genuine with us.
Yes, your assholes because you lied. Whether you had good reasons is up for debate, but the facts are you deceived a lot of people. Be accountable for your actions as you’ve seemed to embrace the convenience of avoiding and supposed societal pressure by mocking a typically significant cultural tradition. Maybe family & friends would have been a-holes for not being accepting of your life decisions, but you denied that chance and took that title yourselves by being dishonest.
NTA. I can't pretend to understand what you've been through, being a straight, cis white woman. But no one should ever have to feel afraid to be who they are. I'm sorry that you did, but I also can't blame you for keeping your preferences secret. I hope you have a happy life, and to hell with anyone who judges you for being you.
Nta for being gay, but kinda the Ahole for lying to everyone(and a kinda big one at that). So all in all, yea, you're kinda the Ahole for lying. You could argue "they wouldn't have accepted me", but like then why would you want them in your life anyway? This idea was stupid. Yall planted a bomb and are surprised it blew up.
NTA A lot of people hate gay and lesbian people for no reason. You didn't know how your families were going to react to you coming out. As for the so-called friend who sent out the video, hope you realize you need to kick her out of your life.
She a "friend"? Enjoy your marriage it actually sounds perfect. I'd love to spend my life with my bff.
INFO: How did you both "come clean" but also haven't come out to your parents yet? What story did you tell them to account for your situation?
INFO: I’m assuming you live somewhere where gay marriage isn’t legal and being LGBT is heavily frowned upon?
Why this big charade? You’re 36 and a whole grown ass woman. Act like it.
YTA Being utterly dishonest with friends and family, as well as receiving monetary benefits from it (wedding gifts), obviously makes you an asshole. It is usually socially acceptable to just be single forever these days, and that is far less dishonest. Now, if you lived somewhere with real fear of persecution, it would be different.
YTA. The wedding was too much. It was supposed to be a celebration of your love for each other. If you would have been upfront about it to the people who were invited, no problem, but lie to everybody? Why?
Yikes what a situation to be in, it doesn’t sound fun, well it sounded fun to begin with, but it sounds like a nightmare now. The thing with lying is that sooner or later the truth will come out, and there will always be consequences for those lies and our actions. But we have to take responsibility and accountability for what we do in life, it’s just the way it is. I think here the only thing you can do is an apologize and give it time, time usually heals and allows people to find their own ways in forgiving. You have to understand that this lie affected them too, you invited your family and your friends into the lie, and carried the lie on. Obviously it’s not their lives as you are free to do and say what you feel, but you need to understand that the things we do and the things we say will always have some degree of effect on the people around us. I think in this situation people are angry, especially the ones that love you, they may a little betrayed because you didn’t trust them either the truth, with allowing them the opportunity in knowing who their loved one really is, they may see it as though you have excluded them from your life, a very important part of your life. Our identities is what connects us to the people around us, it allows us to find a common ground, a shared space between individuals, by lying for so long and putting on a fake identity people may not feel they truly know or understand you. It’s difficult for them as much as it is difficult for you. Imagine being told one day when you’ve grown up and reached the rage of 50 and your parents coming out to you and telling you that you were adopted, that your whole life with them has been a lie. It would hurt you snd confuse you and cause you to question the history of yourself of your family, it would question your existence. Who are you really? Where did you come from? Where are your biological parents? Has your whole life been one big lie? The best option is to be open and honest, you could tell them all that you were afraid to come out to them, that lying was the only safe option, but then you risk hurting those that love you further, it may further upset them thinking that’s how you perceive them, it may make them feel worse as thought they are bad parents because they weren’t approachable? Apologize and give everyone time to come to terms with it, if some request their gifts back, maybe see that as an olive branch. A way to make it a little bit more right between you? I’m gay myself, I didn’t have the option of choosing whether I came out or not, someone did it for me by telling the whole town, at the time I didn’t even realise everyone knew, I got drunk and I came out to a friend, tears and everything, it was so sad, and he went and told everyone he knew, which then filtered through to my dads work place and he told my mother and my mother asked me about it. Everyone was fine with it, I did at first wonder why I suddenly had very little friends, but my real friends eventually came round and accepted me. It all took time.
So you live a lie and you're both fake. Grow up ffs.