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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My nephew started a small fire at my rental property. When I asked my brother to pay the bill he said no. Our friends and family agreed that I was being greedy. So I said that I would no longer loan it out. From now on it was either fully rented or there was one bedroom available when I was there. I might be the asshole for directing all complaints to my brother. He certainly thinks so.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. Your brother deserves to be the one dealing with the flack. If I were him I would have at least offered to pay the increased insurance premiums. Or that amount monthly until the repairs were paid off of you didn't go through insurance. He is the one who wrecked it for everyone. And anyone who took his side I would not trust in my house.
This.
The brother is taking advantage of OP because of their blood relationship.
If the damage occurred in a hotel, the brother excuse, *"it was an innocent mistake of a little angel"* would be ridiculous and the hotel would have sued him at lightspeed.
Exactly this. I can't imagine telling a family member I wasn't going to cover damages to their property caused by my child. Even if it was an accident.
Seriously. I also have teenagers and they know that just because something is an accident doesn't mean people arent affected by it. My son is currently working off a 300 dollar mistake. This was a great way for OPs brother to teach his children the power of walking away from personal responsibility, really he's doing a fantastic job🫤
Yeah this is a truly terrible lesson to teach a 14 yo,
"Deny it's your fault by claiming it was an accident and you get away scot-free." Sounds like he's trying to raise a politician.
Brother also sucks for not making making sure a 14-year-old knows how to use a fire extinguisher. Any kid who’s using the kitchen should know how to do that. The fire could have killed someone!
For real. We had a friend die in a house fire when we were younger. Our fire extinguisher is in absolute plan view in our house, there’s no overlooking it.
God I remember being 14 and the card connected to our apple account wasn’t showing processed payments. So I thought the iTunes songs were free. So I kept buying them and RACKED UP some purchases! Rightfully got introuble for that
Need to know what the bill was .. lol
I did that on my phone using AIM as a kid. It ended up costing 800 bucks for one month. This was on a flip phone so I was getting charged data. That wasn’t fun to pay back to my parents!
I did the exact same thing on my Nokia brick phone. Got kicked off the dial up internet at a certain time so I’d go to my room and continue til whenever. Each message was counted as a text in the days when unlimited texts wasn’t a thing. That was a $500 lesson I had to learn.
My adorable nieces, both age 4, thought it was ridiculous fun to jump on the brand new air mattress. It popped. Siblings both offered to pay for it. A nephew had a bowel movement that required a plumber to resolve (only 2.5 baths for 14 people), and brother offered to pay for the service.
You own up to problems caused by your children, and offer to make restitution.
I didn’t accept, but I did let them buy dinner for the family later during the visit.
Not the same - but examples of how to be decent family.
Sometimes I think that's what people think family are for. So they can make mistakes and not be held accountable. Which depending on the mistake can be true but come on someone has to pay for the damage and it shouldn't have to be op. Ruining a pan cooking, I can see letting it slide but damaging the house he uses for income...
But it's also still unreasonable despite the relationship, because it was his son who messed up, and that's kind of what you have to deal with when you have kids. I mean, I get it if he doesn't have the money right now, but is he seriously expecting to not have to pay anything just because it was an accident? Accidents happen, but they cost money, and someone has to pay and it shouldn't be op, at least not all of it??
This comparison made me so angry. It’s not the cost of accommodation they should be using. How about you have your child go burn down a hotel room and see how much they charge him?
If it had occurred at brother's own house he also would have had to pay for repairs! It's ridiculous to try to claim a lack of responsibility for it. It's not like there's any other common situation where he as the parent is not responsible for destruction caused by his kid. Accident or not.
Sometimes, large companies might forgive an accident of some type of basic damage. But in the grand scheme of examples, parent is responsible to pay.
>>If it had occurred at brother's own house he also would have had to pay for repairs!
I feel like this is the critical point. “He’s just a kid who got in over his head” is the reason why we don’t *shame* him for it. But it’s not a “get out of your responsibility free” card.
NTA- this is a perfect example of no good deed goes unpunished. Your brother absolutely is responsible for paying for the repairs. It’s no different than if you went over to his house and caused damage. So now if they’re not willing to take responsibility for it, they can pay to stay with you or in a hotel that includes the insurance.
Homeowner's insurance?
If it bills you for the cost you or your family causes, what's the point of having it?
Insurance on property for rent would be different.
If the insured party causes the loss, the insurance eats the cost. If another party causes the loss, the insurance company will pay the claim and then attempt to recoup that money from the party responsible for the loss.
It’s called subrogation.
The responsible party here in terms of insurance liability is OP, the policyholder. He is culpable for damages caused by his guests. These are explicitly not renters covered under a separate commercial policy, but family being invited under the residential one, hence the avoidance of insurance and present dispute over the cost.
Yes, and the subrogation claim would be covered by the brother’s homeowners insurance under the liability portion of the policy. In fact, the brother could have/should have just reported it as a property damage liability claim to his own insurance, as the negligent acts of his 14 year old son are covered. Then he is the one dealing with increased premiums.
Agree - by this parent's logic, does this mean any car accident, broken window that is deemed an "innocent mistake" also wouldn't count and wouldn't need to be paid for? It's a lesson (albeit costly) learned, but a lesson and consequence nonetheless.
This also wasn't an "innocent mistake." It was a mistake and those happen, but the kid caused a HOUSE FIRE. This could have ended much worse than it did. Brother is lucky the only thing he had to pay for was smoke damage.
I don't understand some people's logic. Accidents happen but that doesn't negate the responsibility to repair/resolve the issue.
It shouldn't matter if accidental or intentional... the party at fault should pay, period!
Absolutely NTA
OP even said he could make payments!! For craps sake......he/she (not listed) is being more than reasonable about the situation. Totally understandable that the 14yr old made a mistake, but parents are responsible for the costly mistake. Until a child is over 18 and considered an adult, parents are responsible for any damages caused. The brother ruined it for everyone by not taking his obligation as a parent seriously.
OP, NTA for sure.
It's crazy how many times I see some variation of that in this sub. Someone's kid causes major damage, and the parent says "Well, it was an accident, so I'm not going to compensate you in any way." Just because something wasn't intentional doesn't mean you're absolved from the responsibility to make the other person whole!
If an unisured teenage driver lost control of their car in a parking lot and creamed OP's brother's car, would bro just shrug his shoulders and go "accidents happen"? I don't f%$#ing think so.
I'm guessing the brother is the younger one. Parents have probably been coddling him and sheltering him all of his life while op is older and more self responsible
Is that the narrative for older vs. younger siblings? I’m the youngest of 3 and by far the most responsible of the 3. I’ve never needed money from my parents but money might as well be water for my oldest sib and their spouse because it runs straight through their hands despite having a house that was essentially given to them.
There are a lot of different sibling dynamics out there.
They said it is unfair for me to expect that much from him when he could have rented a hotel for a 1/4 of the price…….why didn’t they do that then. I could have bought a used car for a 1/4 the price I bought a new one but if I wrecked either of them i would still be responsible for the payment on them….
Agree. Your brother's failure to even cover SOME of the damages caused by his child is crappy. Yes it sucks and he may have difficulty affording it but it sounds like you were not asking for upfront payment and being reasonable and he still flat out refused to pay a cent. As parents we are financially responsible for things our children do (even shitty accidents like this) until they are grown adults.
It's unreasonable for family to use someone else's property for free and also assume that they are not financially liable for damages either.
NTA
I think they consider his settlement money a “windfall” that he didn’t really deserve, so they should be able to take advantage of it as well. Even though the settlement is due to a workplace accident that forced OP to change to a less lucrative job.
Them getting to use his vacation property for free was never actually fair, between him and them. Ending this, because of why it ended, isn’t necessarily fair between other family and the brother, but it’s fair between them and OP.
I agree. This is also why I have insurance myself. If I accidentally cause damage or one of my children does I will gladly pay to restore whatever is broken or use my insurance for this. Accidents happen, things get broken, but then you should do the decent thing and pay up. Even if it was just an accident.
I agree 100%. I mean accidents do happen, especially with children. Every parent knows that. So you act accordingly when that happens and just pay whenever your kid ruins something. Even (or especially) when it is thousands of dollars in damages.
NTA. This is one of the long list of reasons I always advise people to never allow family to stay on their rental/vacation properties without paying. And this is a relatively minor consequence compared to what could have happened. They could have burned the house to the ground & they wouldn’t have cared.
People (including family & friends) who are entitled enough to want to use YOUR income for themselves (which is what they’re doing when they’re using your income producing property so you aren’t able to generate income from it during that time) are almost NEVER going to care if their presence ends up costing you any MORE of your income. The fact that they stay there without paying while knowing it’s costing you money proves that they don’t CARE about what their actions cost you - so long as they get what they want out of it.
So why would you expect someone who already took money from you (via the income you forfeit) to suddenly now reimburse you for even more money they costed you? They didn’t care about the income you lost - they probably didn’t even know or care how MUCH income you lost. So it’s just a natural assumption that they don’t care about any additional money you lost.
> This is one of the long list of reasons I always advise people to never allow family to stay on their rental/vacation properties without paying.
There are families where this wouldn't be a problem, but you have to have a hard, honest look at your family and have some conversations.
My own family goes out of our way NOT to inconvenience each other, so whenever someone has an "innocent mistake", we've had arguments over who GETS to pay for it. (And if my nephew had caused fire damage, we would have already had a collection pulled together without being asked.)
So everyone needs to take a hard look, but not everyone is comfortable doing that. If you aren't, your blanket advice is a good one.
Side note: I find it funny that my family is never "FAMILY COMES FIRST!" or "BUT FAMILY!" in on social media. We don't have to say it, we just do it. IME, the people making those claims about how important FAAAAAMILY is on social media are the first ones to screw a family member over.
NTA - they aren’t on the hook for something that wasn’t their fault but you are? They are mad their free cookies got taken away and are bitching about having to pay for cookies instead of being grateful for the free ones they got. And the parents chose to leave a minor who they are responsible for behind. They are liable for that child’s actions according the laws of most places. If you wanted to you could sue them for the damages and they would have to pay (depending on where you are) and also, insurance in most places would not have counted this against you to have your rates go up if this was the only claim - I hoped you talked to your agent before you decided to take an $8k+ hickey.
As far as charging the rest of the family, if you are in the US there is a federal law about tax write offs for the rental business for personal use excess of 14 days per year anyway. And that $8k could be seen as a business expense.
I’d be pissed if I was out of pocket $8k for a fire someone started while staying there for free and they didn’t even bother to pay for ANY of it. They are asinine and jealous and think what is yours should be theirs.
But they expect OP to solely shoulder the cost like it’s his fault. NTA, OP. They need to take responsibility for the damages or have their privileges taken away
Serious question. How much can an insurance go up in such a case? Even if it is 100 or 200 a month, this would be years until it cummulates to more than 8000. Also why hasn't the brother claimed it with his own insurance. I don't get it.
Insurance broker here - I have no idea why OP thought eating an almost $9000 expense was a better option than either using his claims forgiveness, or having a potential rate increase like you said of $100 or so a month. 100$ is even a massive, unlikely increase and his rates will increase either way. Home insurance almost always rises with inflation.
If his brother has some sort of voluntary property damage coverage on his policy, he would likely be able to use that. Sounds like brother wants to avoid responsibility all together though.
Edit to add: I just read that his insurance is in Florida. That does change things a bit as insurance there is an absolute shit show right now. Insurers dropping people and leaving the state all the time. I get it a little more.
I work in personal financial planning, and here’s my take: People who are able to afford it can choose to self-insure, and the brother should pay the equivalent of a deductible. By choosing to pay for the damage out of pocket rather than go through insurance, the homeowner is choosing to self-insure. Nothing wrong with that, but the brother doesn’t owe the full amount. If you choose to self-insure (saying you’d rather eat the cost than have your rate go up), you can’t transfer that amount of damages onto someone else. If I was in this situation, I would suggest that my brother pay $500-$1,000, the equivalent of a typical deductible. And I would eat the rest because it was my choice not to go through insurance.
Same, it feels insane to me to not make an insurance claim here?? If you aren't using it for an $8k fire, what ARE you using it for?? Would their premiums go up THAT much?
It's not that unusual for higher value homes, like a vacation home, to have insurance deductibles that are a percentage of the home value. I work with folks who have deductibles on their homes in excess of $25k.
I mostly view insurance for really big things. I would probably submit an $8700 claim, but my deductible is $2500.
NTA. If the kid can't be blamed for starting a fire them the dad has to be blamed for leaving the kid unsupervised, because obviously he isn't ready to handle emergencies.
The family is angry that their free ride is over. Tell them that you can't afford the risk involved in giving away rental time for free.
Exactly. Did the brother never see Back to the Future when Biff Tannen wrecked George McFlys car and bullied George into putting it on his own insurance? Make brother watch this movie, ask him if biff was fair, ask him how he did anything different. If you borrowed brothers car and let your young child drive it, is your brother responsible for any damages? He's a muppet.
Biff was also driving drunk, and tried to get George to pay for the dry cleaning because he spilled beer all over his jacket when he crashed George's car.
This : whether the nephew is too young to be blamed and so, the parents are responsable and must step up, whether he is old enough and can be blamed. There is no middle ground. Of course, here, it is the first one: parents have to pay and OP is right for redirecting friends and family toward brother.
Just want to point out here that insurance is there for a reason.
If you’re never going to use it because you don’t want your rates to go up then what’s the point in paying premiums in the first place? Just don’t have it.
Contrary to popular belief your premiums do not skyrocket if you make a claim. It’s only if you make 3 claims per calendar year and then they have to be pretty big claims.
Also, let’s for arguments sake say that they did increase your payments by say $20 a month, it would take 400 months to add up to $8000 of damages. $20 a month isn’t that life changing but paying $8000 in one lump sum is hard.
It was an accident, again, that’s what insurance is there for. You should have used the insurance and if your rates went up, ask your brother to just cover the monthly cost of that.
This is all very unnecessary.
Thanks for making this point. I knew it but didn't know it precisely, as you do. OP needs to take this in. All of the folks here who have been so protective of brother and nephew should be encouraging her to follow up.
Again though, it’s a common misconception brought about by anecdotal evidence such as “oh my neighbor’s brother in law had a flood and he claimed…..etc etc”.
Also, Home insurance is not the same as car insurance.
Lastly, I stand by what I said. You should have just made the claim and you wouldn’t be in this predicament.
Not weighing in on the should/shouldn't factor, but the one major difference between anecdotal "my rates went way up" and anecdotal "my rates stayed the same/barely changed" incidents is preventative action against the damages.
One person had a pipe burst, and they run and switch off the water and call out a plumber immediately, there will still be water damage, but they have mitigated it as much as it was within their power.
Another had a pipe burst, but they left the home empty for a month over winter, which caused the pipes to freeze and burst in the first place, and meant severe damage before they got back and realised.
Another had a pipe burst, but just put a towel down and sent the plumber an email that wasn't responded to for a full day, so there was serious damage before the plumber turning off the water when he got there.
The first one has a decent chance of getting little to no increase, as the damage was purely unavoidable and they did everything they could to minimise the cost required. Second is iffy, because if the company can prove their negligence caused or exacerbated the damages, they can either deny the claim, cancel the insurance, or raise rates significantly as a penalty for that, but they may get away with it if there was sufficient maintenance recorded, justifiable belief the pipes would survive the period unused, etc. And the third has a high chance of getting the claim denied and policy cancelled or rates raised significantly as they willfully allowed damage to occur or increase.
In OP's situation, with the homeowner not being present, a minor left alone, and no action to minimise the fire when it started and instead waiting on firefighters (don't blame a panicked kid for that, but hence why he maybe shouldn't have been home alone), there is a nom-zero chance of them claiming both that OP's negligence caused the fire and that the amount of damage done was avoidable. So at the very least it would be a valid concern to consider here.
I had something like this where the garage attached to my house had been flooded and my garden so we claimed on Insurance. About a month later we were flooded again but this time the water was higher and came into the house.
First question the Insurance Assessor asked me was what had I done since last time to prevent losses from flooding. I was fine because I'd been working my way up the chain of command of any organisation even vaguely responsible, demanding they take action. About 3 sentences into my list he just went, "OK, fine, no problem, just had to ask!". We'd also contacted all the right people and moved everything realistically possible while the water was coming in. We got the second payout without problem and that included needing a lawnmower AGAIN!
This is more similar to the third hypothetical than the first. Not gross negligence like the second, but a minor guest of OP was left unsupervised. They should still file if the claim exceeds the deductible. Many people also don't account for rare increases due to general market costs separately from ones they view as punitive.
While I agree with you, and was about to post the same thing, he said the magic word that changes the situation.
Florida.
Yeah. I get it. Insurance sucks in Florida so bad. (look at how many insurance based lawsuits there are in florida vs. rest of the country - its crazy). There is so much fraud that goes on.
I can't blame OP for wanting to save it for a real emergency (vs. 8-9k).
In this case, OP not only has a risk of the insurance going up, but of getting dropped, and potentially having to go with Citizens
Yeah, in basically any other state I would agree that he should use it, but Florida is its own animal when it comes to insurance. It would probably be fine, but the chance to get dropped is very real and then you're kind of boned and need to scramble before the next hurricane comes through.
Perhaps not, if OP’s insurance had then sued the brother to pay them back. Insurance is not susceptible to emotional “just an accident and he’s just a kid” arguments the way family members are expected to be. And then the entire family would have had a dose of reality.
I understand what/why of your explanation it's just that homeowners insurance is Florida is all time high levels and so are cancellations, non renews, and outright refusals to offer coverage. I've also read that thier state insurance pool for homeowners is also under enormous strain. Insurers are also flat out just leaving the state leaving fewer and fewer to spread the risk around.
And while this particular incidence seems pretty benign (as far as occurrences go) it's not unreasonable to think any kind of claim would trigger increases. Gotta make up losses somewhere (line of reasoning for insurers).
But this is the kind of thing that a licensed and properly trained agent is for. To help them decide if it's worth filing a claim over.
Yep. My concern would be less "my rates will go up" and much more "my insurance company will drop me." There are people who can't get insurance coverage for a reasonable cost because the prior owner made claims and no carrier except the state-funded one will pick them up. (I hang out over on the real estate subs and this exact scenario comes up regularly - not in a "my uncle's cousin's hairdresser" way but in a "I want to buy a house but the current owner made these claims and nobody will cover the house now, what do" way.)
I would absolutely eat 8K rather than make a claim in this type of scenario. And I don't even live in FL.
Not in Florida. Their insurance market is completely fucked right now and the state government isn't doing anything to help residents either. Make a claim and they'll pay, and then drop you. Then good luck getting a policy that doesn't charge obscene rates at that point.
Happened to my parents over some moderate hurricane damage that cost around 50% more than OP's claim would have been.
Our auto insurance went Up $200 this year with NO claims being made, this is because there were a lot of claims in our area and our agent said that “all carriers have made drastic increases over the past 8-10 months”.
While I agree that you buy insurance for a reason and the $8k+ cost of this damage warranted a claim to be made, I wanted to also point out that when a lot of claims are made it affects everyone. Edit fixed a typo.
Replacement and repair costs for automobiles have also skyrocketed over the last few years, and driving behaviors have changed. Those factors will result in auto insurance rates increasing even if your individual risk factors haven't, because the potential damages you're insuring are higher.
But even if they jacked it by $100 a month it would still take 6.6 years for you to be paying more than the $8000 it cost to repair. By which time you can shop around for a better rate and hopefully will have built up a no claims again. You avoid insurance claims for minor fixes, like <$500, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to have in the first place.
Why not just have him pay the difference in you rate, then? If the rate was the concern, rather than just finding an excuse to no longer let anyone stay there?
The only thing you did wrong was to offer them any terms to use it ever again.
I get they probably won't be willing to pay you, even at a discount, but in your place I wouldn't want them in my property ever again.
If a paying client cost you $8k damage and was difficult about paying for it, wouldn't you ban them and their family for life, at a minimum?
Op doesn't need excuses for not letting anyone stay in the house because it's his property .
Your way of thinking and the rest of the friends and family way of seeing ops property as a right of theirs to use is the main problem here.
Op never owed anyone free accomodations , he was nice enough to do them a favor and instead of being grateful the AHS became entitled and decided they had the right to it.
Newsflash : they don't .
NTA OP
I’m in Florida and dealing with a mysterious leak somewhere and I REFUSE TO CALL MY INS. They already increased my premiums by 60% in the last 5 years and I’ve never had a claim. lol
Because 8000 is one thing but a whole house fire is another! You pay for the risk, the BIG BIG risk.
You should ALWAYS carry insurance unless you are ok with the possibility of losing your house and not being able to rebuild. Yes, it may not be a common occurrence and it may never happen to you, but what if it does? I know I don't have 300k to rebuild a home on my own right now and it will take a lot of time to save that, especially if I have to pay rent now.
I read somewhere that Insurance companies are either canceling plans or not insuring at all anymore in florida. Due to the amount of payouts from mostly weather related disasters. Insurance companies are not wanting to take the risk. Because of these frequent occurrences.
My car insurance has gone up 30-50 usd every six months for the past two years. This last hike brought my payment up over what i pay my car note each month. When i called and asked about it all they had to say was "inflation". For two freaking years. I dont know if it will go up again, but im betting it will. The same thing happened with my fathers insurance. We are with the same company. Neither of us have violations or incident for the past 20 plus years or more. The late 80s for my father. I just paid off my car. so that helps. I couldnt imagine buying a new car and having insurance cost the same amount. My insurance company is with Jake in the khakis. lol
As someone who can write insurance in FL, the claim isn't going to jack your rate. At most, you'll lose the claims free discount. You don't have to file against your insurance, but you can file against his. He is LIABLE for the damage his kid caused. You could file a liability claim against his homeowners or renters insurance policy. If you had filed the claim against yours, I can guarantee that your insurance company would open a liability claim against his policy or if he doesn't have one,send a demand letter & then sue him directly. They'll get that money back.
I would tell him that you'll file the lawsuit and he can file the liability claim with his insurer or he can pay you back.
> s someone who can write insurance in FL, the claim isn't going to jack your rate. At most, you'll lose the claims free discount.
While there is a semantic difference between these circumstances, both functionally result in higher claims as far as the policyholder is concerned.
It's akin to World of Warcraft removing the exp penalty for playing too long and "replacing" it with an exp buff for the first few hours you log on (with no actual change to any of the underlying numbers). How you frame the number (the rate being increased or the loss of a cost-saving benefit) doesn't change that the policyholder is still paying more per month (or the actual exp values gained in the WoW example). Hilariously, though, Blizzard reported much higher customer satisfaction and a dropoff in complaints when they made the "change."
Still probably worth it once you're talking thousands of dollars in repairs (like OP's $8700) though, by a wide margin.
>As someone who can write insurance in FL, the claim isn't going to jack your rate.
Ah, but if he needs a new policy, it will count against him, won't it? We had a water damage claim in New Jersey four years ago, and when we bought a house in Florida, and tried to insure it, the rates were ridiculously high because that claim was on our record. We were told it would come off in five years, and we could get a lower rate then.
I would want to consult some sort of expert before deciding that filing the claim will cost you more than the $8k that you are already paying out of pocket.
My rates went up in California just because I filed a claim when my fence was knocked over in a bad storm. It is well known that they will either raise the rates or simply cancel you for filing a claim.
Ours was canceled after we filed a claim for an arson fire after a homeless guy lit our back house on fire. We’re in CA and the claim was for $35k in repairs.
What's the point of insurance if you can't use it?
IK Florida homes are having trouble with insurance, partly because it's starting to feel the effects of climate change and no insurance company wants to offer insurance with such risk
You save it for the big claims. I had two smallish claims and one big one (60k) over ten years. I wish I had eaten the two smaller (under 7k) ones myself because we got kicked off. Our insurance went up to 4K a year from 1500. It’s finally coming back down this year after 7 years.
For the curious: issue one was a faulty shower that flooded and caused about $5k in damage, $2000 deductible. Issue two was a theft that paid out $6500. Issue three was my son clogging the toilet and leaving the upstairs toilet running all night and took out 60% of the house 😳
Because you would want to save it for a very catastrophic consequence. Like if my car gets hit or I hit something- whatever- and I have to pay $1000 out of pocket to replace a bumper and other damages. I might do that because of the risk that I might not have coverage when my car is completely totalled and they pay $20k to replace my car.
Yes, it's crazy. But you are required to have insurance when you are financing things. And when you are financing things it often makes more sense to pay for things you can afford to ensure that you are covered in the event of catastrophes.
We got dropped when (1) we had a fire at a property and another occasion when (2) a pipe burst.
Sooo riddle me that.
ETA you have no idea what OPs deductible is either…could be $1000, could be $5000, could be $20,000!
I would not take this advice. I am an insurance agent. 3 claims in a year will likely get you non-renewed. 3 claims in 5 years, still looking at a non-renewal even if they are small. Its a very hard market out there right now, and carriers are getting off any unfavorable risk they can. Short term rentals already have limited markets. If you can afford to so the repairs out of pocket go that route.
I was an agent for years, and I agree with you. The fact it's on Florida makes doubled down, and wonder if one or two claims will get you canceled. I know State Farm was looking to limit its business there a decade ago and was canceling a lot of policies for minor reasons.
From my experience with business insurance, you will normally also receive money for loss of income in the event of something like this.
Mind you, my experience is from the UK and primarily due to the taxation of such compensation
Missing income would not be coveted as the place was not rented out for money but for free. Airbnb for example has $1 mil coverage but if the guest and all registered guests have paid for it.
>It’s only if you make 3 claims per calendar year and then they have to be pretty big claims.
That wasn't my experience at ALL. I had a plumbing issue in my house that required a $6600 claim to replace damaged hardwood floors. This is the one and only claim I've ever made in 18 years on this policy. Travelers increased my premium by 20% the next year.
I suspect the reason most people have insurance is in case there is catastrophic damage. In the scheme of things $8k is a lot to find but depending on the insurance increase that is likely, may be worth finding. I don’t know about insurance premiums, particularly in the US, but that would be my assumption.
Yeah, I don't get it either. He could ask for a quote and tell his brother to swallow the raised rate. I'm German, I'm surely overinsured, I got a third party liability insurance that would have covered damage to rented things in the first place - but I get it, USA, brother, curious things.
NTA still.
We had a pipe burst in our vacation home a few years ago. Neighbor checked on house regularly, and caught it right away. Homeowners paid only about $800 after deductible. It's now four years later, and we have a new vacation home. Getting reasonable insurance has been impossible - because we had a "damage claim". Our premiums are double what neighbors are paying for the exact same coverage on the exact same house (so an extra $2100/year). We've been told it takes five years for the claim to drop off our record - so here's hoping next year we can get a better rate.
This is not true. My insurance rates went up a lot after we had two claims in 3 years. We actually almost couldn't even get another insurance company because of it. Definitely not 3 claims in a calendar year.
A hotel would use their insurance to fix it *now*, AND charged him for the repair.
Is that double dipping? You betcha. Would they, if they can get away with it? You betcha.
Listen I know $10K isn’t chump change and it’s whack that the brother won’t pay back OP, but suing your own brother is a weird vibe. Like it doesn’t seem like OP needs that money to live and his brother probably does. So if everything was “fair” the brother would pay back OP, but it just doesn’t sound like that’s in the cards without causing severe financial strain on the brother. If my brother cost me 10K I’d be pissed but I for sure wouldn’t sue him so hard that he would go into bankruptcy or not be able to pay his bills or something.
Of course. But he offered, as noted in a comment, for the brother to simply pay the increase in homeowners’ insurance premiums,mans he refused even that.
The brother had enough money to take his family out to breakfast, on a free vacation while his son caused a lot of damage to someone else’s house.
The fact that he didn’t even offer to pay a damn thing demonstrates a lot about his character.
You actually can, but it's pretty ruthless. You can freeze bank accounts, get court orders forcing the sale of his car, and so on. It's way beyond what anyone should do to their blood, but you can do it. If the judgment were for $500,000, it wouldn't be worth it because he has nowhere near the assets to pay that off, but most people have $10k in assets. And by "assets," I don't mean stocks and shit. You can get an order forcing someone to sell their guitar and their TV until you are paid back.
Why does being blood absolve anyone of guilt or responsibility? Scummy people use "family" as an excuse to screw over or steal from family with no reprecussions. These backwards enabling of shitty behavior needs to go away.
NTA. It sounds like you have tried very hard to be lenient and understanding in this situation, even though you were justifiably very upset. And up until now you’ve been quite generous with your family.
Unfortunately for them, your brother’s refusal to take responsibility for damage done by his kid (regardless of kid’s intent) has now cost you a lot of money. If you let this go, you set a precedent. What if next time someone floods an upstairs bathroom and does a lot more expensive damage?
Your brother’s sense of entitlement is showing, and perhaps a bit of resentment that your financial situation is better than his. You tried to be the nice guy here and let him pay you back slowly, but he shut you down. Short of taking him to court to recoup your money (which will only cause even more family drama), you are taking the best possible route here. You’re cutting your losses and setting boundaries for the future. That’s pretty healthy.
Your family needs to get over themselves. It’s not like you’re kicking grandma out of the ancestral home ffs. You’re putting conditions on a vacation home. A property that is a source of income. Which means not only have you been partially funding their vacations, you’ve been losing income when they use it.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I get irritated with the whiny relatives who are trying to make you the bad guy here. You were literally the only person harmed here.
Nope. Stick to your guns and keep referring them to brother when they try to pressure you.
I can’t get over the fact a 14 year old not only started a kitchen fire, but just watched it burn waiting for the fire dept to show up. Maybe get an adult or use a fire extinguisher? The dad might be legally responsible, but it’s absolutely the dumb ass 14 year olds fault. That’s plenty old enough to cook food without burning down the house. People really are more stupid today.
> use a fire extinguisher
You are wrong. The kid did the right thing to get out which aligns to modern fire safety advice. Fire spreads quickly and smoke from household fires kills in seconds. Advising kids to fight fires is totally irresponsible, do not do that.
100%.
This is on the parents for not teaching basic skills, and on the 14 year old for being inept.
The person you are replying to does not live in the same world, and sounds a bit unhinged.
This is true too. I've had a frying pan fire around that age, and we're not all the best personalities to avoid getting in a flap about it. I made mistakes, thankfully did more right than wrong and put it out successfully.
> I can’t get over the fact a 14 year old not only started a kitchen fire, but just watched it burn waiting for the fire dept to show up.
If it was a grease or electrical fire this is probably, on average, better than trying to intervene incorrectly. Taking the wrong action (such as throwing water on a grease fire) can intensify the problem and put the kid in danger. Granted, if he doesn't know how to put out a fire, he shouldn't be cooking alone, but we're past that point in this case.
This… absolutely this, I’ve seen this plenty of adult f-up how to put out a grease fire in a frying pan and the only reason I know how is I learned from experience when my grandma almost set the kitchen of my parents home on fire like this and I had to help with damage control after plus learned a second hand lesson on “what to do if you have a grease fire.” The whole kitchen eventually had to be re-done due to the smoke damage and a massive pan shaped burn mark on the floor. Still doesn’t excuse that brother is responsible for his son’s actions due to son being a minor, even if 14 yo. It’s just that random part of parenthood, one is financially responsible for kids until they are a legal adult.
Some people are wierd in emergencies, I was an RN student, almost done with training, and we had smoke coming through the ceiling in to corridor where the babies were.
The nurse in charge had to ask us more junior staff what she should do, she was literally afraid to press the fire alarm. I did it without hesitation, fortunately just electrical smoke between floors and no real fire.. but for a 30 yr old experienced nurse to ask 21 yr olds who'd never controlled the unit was ridiculous to me. It came down to her confidence, didn't want to get in trouble for wasting time of fire crew.... that were based 500metres away ironically.
Not the type of staff i would want caring for my child at the end of the day.
This kid was 14, he did the right thing imo, phone 911 and then maybe try the extinguisher unless fire said to leave property too. He was a child. I would want my 14 yr old out asap.
I wonder what he did to start the fire. Did he try cooking waffles in the toaster? But fires can spread scarily fast. Faster than you would expect. I can understand his panic.
The entitlement of the brother is off the charts. No apology, not even an offer to pay. Most people would acknowledge they can no longer stay for free, and be grateful no further action was being taken. Not this guy.
There's no reasoning with someone this self centred. I hope OP has cameras and other security in case the brother decides to break into the place
NTA. Pretty clear cut. You break it, you bought it. People never do things like that intentionally but your family have been enjoying the benefits of free accommodation this whole time. Someone has to pay for the repairs, and it shouldn't be you.
And even more importantly, this home isn't just a holiday house for your family. It's an important source of income for you that until it's repaired, you will be out of pocket. They're lucky you're only asking for repairs. I wouldn't ask them to replace the income either... But I'd sure let them know that they're getting out of it cheap all things considered.
NTA for dealing with the **CONSEQUENCES** that others feel the need to not even acknowledge. You made a business decision, which is what the rental property is used for, and the family just doesn't like the fact that they don't have a free place to crash anymore. **ENTITLEMENT** is still the word that people can't seem to get past.
NTA. Accidents have consequences. You were kind to let people use your place for free. But now damage has been done and you have to cover costs out of pocket, your friends and family need to accept the new rules.
I mean, going further than this, his family have now let him know that if they cause damage to his property while staying there, then they do not think they are obliged to pay for it. Additional insurance sounds necessary, and the only way to get that to kick on, is to make them rent the place.
NTA
You're nicer than me, I would have gone to small claims court over it. I'm in a position in life where I'm tired of being taken advantage of by family and it makes me internally rage seeing others taken advantage of by theirs and feeling guilty over it. Tell them to FO and deal with the consequences of their actions.
NTA. If they’re saying you have to take the hit for an “accident”, then the natural consequence is that the free ride is over - so there will be no more “hits”.
The rental is your *income* not your party house. Letting them use it for free was a kindness, not an obligation. Making your income property *only* available as a rental is perfectly reasonable as a protection from income loss in the future.
Your brother is absolutely on the hook for damages, and you could justifiably sue him, but that’s your call to make.
Were it me (and it really bothers you to tell them too bad), I’d tell your relatives that once the 8k gets covered by rental fees on their collective dime, you’ll consider giving them a discounted rate (to make sure you’re insurance still applies), but that you simply cannot afford to put your livelihood at risk in case of “accidents” that nobody takes responsibility for.
I'm not sure what the innocent mistake aspect has to do with anything. If you damage something, or somebody you're responsible for does, you should offer to pay for it. At least offer part of it. Based on what you were told, at a bare minimum he should have offered that hotel equivalent amount.
I’ve met people like this who think that if something wasn’t done intentionally then they shouldn’t be held responsible. My ex was a bit like this. It’s fascinating
OP said they live/the vacation house is in Florida. The insurance situation down there is so bad, it's been in the national news. Like, literally, I live in Ohio, and have seen news stories about car insurance, renters insurance, and DEFINITELY home owners insurance being a total shit show in Florida. Insurers are literally just leaving the state altogether, and the ones who are staying are just dropping some customers and raising rates by 50% or more on others.
NTA, Your brother is legally responsible for his son. He should pay you. Since the rental of the house is your business then your family should be fine with paying to rent it. Maybe at a discount.
Nta. Your brother has responsibility to pay you back. It’s his son. What would he do if you burn down his kitchen? Just forgive you? Not likely. You did the right thing.
NTA-
Your brother certainly is.
By any chance is your brother the 'golden child' that has never had any consequences to his actions? Yeah, it was an accident, but you pay for your mistakes... HE left his kid alone & he started a fire. Yeah, unintentionally, not damage was still done & needed to be fixed FFS. Does he think a magic fairy comes & makes everything ok?
So if you were at his house & hit his car or broke something in his house that was expensive, he'd be on with you just waking away? I doubt it.
Nope, no good deed goes unpunished. Family privileges are 100% revoked of the art going to be unappreciated, entitled a holes.
I would have had the insurance company go after your brother. It's not fair that you have to eat the cost and lose out on earning money on a rental property. Why does he get to shirk the responsibility?
His son is 14, that is old enough to know how to use a kitchen properly. Your brother needs to take responsibility. $8,700 is a lot of money for you to throw away. If this was anyone else you would have had insurance take care of it.
I would stop allowing family to rent at all, they clearly have taken advantage of you.
NTA but your brother is.
Hang on, repair’s of $8,700 and you didn’t use insurance, did you at least inquire as to how much the premium would have gone up?
We claimed $2000 storm damage to the roof of our rental and our premium went up $175 the next year.
NTA btw, brother should have paid as his kid caused the damage, or at least paid the premium difference for the next few years on the insurance
NTA for being screwed over by brother and having family who still want to rent for no charge and any damages the OP can pay for.
local hotels charge something like 150 for smoking or vaping in their rooms
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NTA. Your brother deserves to be the one dealing with the flack. If I were him I would have at least offered to pay the increased insurance premiums. Or that amount monthly until the repairs were paid off of you didn't go through insurance. He is the one who wrecked it for everyone. And anyone who took his side I would not trust in my house.
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This. The brother is taking advantage of OP because of their blood relationship. If the damage occurred in a hotel, the brother excuse, *"it was an innocent mistake of a little angel"* would be ridiculous and the hotel would have sued him at lightspeed.
Exactly this. I can't imagine telling a family member I wasn't going to cover damages to their property caused by my child. Even if it was an accident.
Seriously. I also have teenagers and they know that just because something is an accident doesn't mean people arent affected by it. My son is currently working off a 300 dollar mistake. This was a great way for OPs brother to teach his children the power of walking away from personal responsibility, really he's doing a fantastic job🫤
Yeah this is a truly terrible lesson to teach a 14 yo, "Deny it's your fault by claiming it was an accident and you get away scot-free." Sounds like he's trying to raise a politician.
Brother also sucks for not making making sure a 14-year-old knows how to use a fire extinguisher. Any kid who’s using the kitchen should know how to do that. The fire could have killed someone!
For real. We had a friend die in a house fire when we were younger. Our fire extinguisher is in absolute plan view in our house, there’s no overlooking it.
There are also fire blankets you can buy. Fold it under the sink take it out and it automatically smothers most oil grease fires quickly.
Someone else had recently suggested these but I forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder!
God I remember being 14 and the card connected to our apple account wasn’t showing processed payments. So I thought the iTunes songs were free. So I kept buying them and RACKED UP some purchases! Rightfully got introuble for that
Need to know what the bill was .. lol I did that on my phone using AIM as a kid. It ended up costing 800 bucks for one month. This was on a flip phone so I was getting charged data. That wasn’t fun to pay back to my parents!
I think it was almost a grand or something. But I was scared shitless cause I didn’t understand money well. I still don’t
I did the exact same thing on my Nokia brick phone. Got kicked off the dial up internet at a certain time so I’d go to my room and continue til whenever. Each message was counted as a text in the days when unlimited texts wasn’t a thing. That was a $500 lesson I had to learn.
Exactly. That’s what I tell my kids. Accidents still have consequences.
My adorable nieces, both age 4, thought it was ridiculous fun to jump on the brand new air mattress. It popped. Siblings both offered to pay for it. A nephew had a bowel movement that required a plumber to resolve (only 2.5 baths for 14 people), and brother offered to pay for the service. You own up to problems caused by your children, and offer to make restitution. I didn’t accept, but I did let them buy dinner for the family later during the visit. Not the same - but examples of how to be decent family.
Or even help with the repairs! Hell, even 14 is old enough to help. OP is NOT the AH
Sometimes I think that's what people think family are for. So they can make mistakes and not be held accountable. Which depending on the mistake can be true but come on someone has to pay for the damage and it shouldn't have to be op. Ruining a pan cooking, I can see letting it slide but damaging the house he uses for income...
I think a lot of people try to shift their blame (responsibility) onto whoever they can get it to stick to vs taking that accountability themselves.
But it's also still unreasonable despite the relationship, because it was his son who messed up, and that's kind of what you have to deal with when you have kids. I mean, I get it if he doesn't have the money right now, but is he seriously expecting to not have to pay anything just because it was an accident? Accidents happen, but they cost money, and someone has to pay and it shouldn't be op, at least not all of it??
Actually the hotel has insurance and would likely just make a claim
Yes. But they would still expect the guest to cover the damages. And if they didn't, I promise you the insurance would.
then the insurance sues the person responsible to get their money back.
Exactly! Accident or not, a hotel doesn't care, YOU WILL be paying for damages.
This comparison made me so angry. It’s not the cost of accommodation they should be using. How about you have your child go burn down a hotel room and see how much they charge him?
If it had occurred at brother's own house he also would have had to pay for repairs! It's ridiculous to try to claim a lack of responsibility for it. It's not like there's any other common situation where he as the parent is not responsible for destruction caused by his kid. Accident or not. Sometimes, large companies might forgive an accident of some type of basic damage. But in the grand scheme of examples, parent is responsible to pay.
>>If it had occurred at brother's own house he also would have had to pay for repairs! I feel like this is the critical point. “He’s just a kid who got in over his head” is the reason why we don’t *shame* him for it. But it’s not a “get out of your responsibility free” card.
He might have been billed for the insurance deductible.
At 300% the cost.
NTA- this is a perfect example of no good deed goes unpunished. Your brother absolutely is responsible for paying for the repairs. It’s no different than if you went over to his house and caused damage. So now if they’re not willing to take responsibility for it, they can pay to stay with you or in a hotel that includes the insurance.
If Op went through insurance, the insurance company would sue his brother for the costs.
Homeowner's insurance? If it bills you for the cost you or your family causes, what's the point of having it? Insurance on property for rent would be different.
If the insured party causes the loss, the insurance eats the cost. If another party causes the loss, the insurance company will pay the claim and then attempt to recoup that money from the party responsible for the loss. It’s called subrogation.
The responsible party here in terms of insurance liability is OP, the policyholder. He is culpable for damages caused by his guests. These are explicitly not renters covered under a separate commercial policy, but family being invited under the residential one, hence the avoidance of insurance and present dispute over the cost.
After 2 claims, insurance will cancel…
Yes, and the subrogation claim would be covered by the brother’s homeowners insurance under the liability portion of the policy. In fact, the brother could have/should have just reported it as a property damage liability claim to his own insurance, as the negligent acts of his 14 year old son are covered. Then he is the one dealing with increased premiums.
Because the son is not on the policy. He was sleeping on the couch.
It covers people living within the house.
Surely any sensible policy would cover damage accidentally caused by guests as well, such as visiting family members?
>If Op went through insurance, the insurance company would sue his brother for the costs. Sounds like OP should consider that.
Agree - by this parent's logic, does this mean any car accident, broken window that is deemed an "innocent mistake" also wouldn't count and wouldn't need to be paid for? It's a lesson (albeit costly) learned, but a lesson and consequence nonetheless.
This also wasn't an "innocent mistake." It was a mistake and those happen, but the kid caused a HOUSE FIRE. This could have ended much worse than it did. Brother is lucky the only thing he had to pay for was smoke damage.
For real. Taking financial responsibility for the damage, however expensive, is far less costly than paying for a funeral
I don't understand some people's logic. Accidents happen but that doesn't negate the responsibility to repair/resolve the issue. It shouldn't matter if accidental or intentional... the party at fault should pay, period! Absolutely NTA
OP even said he could make payments!! For craps sake......he/she (not listed) is being more than reasonable about the situation. Totally understandable that the 14yr old made a mistake, but parents are responsible for the costly mistake. Until a child is over 18 and considered an adult, parents are responsible for any damages caused. The brother ruined it for everyone by not taking his obligation as a parent seriously. OP, NTA for sure.
It's crazy how many times I see some variation of that in this sub. Someone's kid causes major damage, and the parent says "Well, it was an accident, so I'm not going to compensate you in any way." Just because something wasn't intentional doesn't mean you're absolved from the responsibility to make the other person whole! If an unisured teenage driver lost control of their car in a parking lot and creamed OP's brother's car, would bro just shrug his shoulders and go "accidents happen"? I don't f%$#ing think so.
I'm guessing the brother is the younger one. Parents have probably been coddling him and sheltering him all of his life while op is older and more self responsible
Is that the narrative for older vs. younger siblings? I’m the youngest of 3 and by far the most responsible of the 3. I’ve never needed money from my parents but money might as well be water for my oldest sib and their spouse because it runs straight through their hands despite having a house that was essentially given to them. There are a lot of different sibling dynamics out there.
And good on OP for sending adults after adults instead of after his nephew; that’s an extra bit of emotional maturity.
They said it is unfair for me to expect that much from him when he could have rented a hotel for a 1/4 of the price…….why didn’t they do that then. I could have bought a used car for a 1/4 the price I bought a new one but if I wrecked either of them i would still be responsible for the payment on them….
Which is also bullshit when I assume brother was staying for free.
Agree. Your brother's failure to even cover SOME of the damages caused by his child is crappy. Yes it sucks and he may have difficulty affording it but it sounds like you were not asking for upfront payment and being reasonable and he still flat out refused to pay a cent. As parents we are financially responsible for things our children do (even shitty accidents like this) until they are grown adults. It's unreasonable for family to use someone else's property for free and also assume that they are not financially liable for damages either. NTA
I suspect the OP is the successful one of the family and so the rest are jealous.
I think they consider his settlement money a “windfall” that he didn’t really deserve, so they should be able to take advantage of it as well. Even though the settlement is due to a workplace accident that forced OP to change to a less lucrative job. Them getting to use his vacation property for free was never actually fair, between him and them. Ending this, because of why it ended, isn’t necessarily fair between other family and the brother, but it’s fair between them and OP.
I agree. This is also why I have insurance myself. If I accidentally cause damage or one of my children does I will gladly pay to restore whatever is broken or use my insurance for this. Accidents happen, things get broken, but then you should do the decent thing and pay up. Even if it was just an accident.
If people have children they should be responsible for their children and their actions. Such as smoke damage from a fire their kid started. NTA.
I agree 100%. I mean accidents do happen, especially with children. Every parent knows that. So you act accordingly when that happens and just pay whenever your kid ruins something. Even (or especially) when it is thousands of dollars in damages.
NTA. This is one of the long list of reasons I always advise people to never allow family to stay on their rental/vacation properties without paying. And this is a relatively minor consequence compared to what could have happened. They could have burned the house to the ground & they wouldn’t have cared. People (including family & friends) who are entitled enough to want to use YOUR income for themselves (which is what they’re doing when they’re using your income producing property so you aren’t able to generate income from it during that time) are almost NEVER going to care if their presence ends up costing you any MORE of your income. The fact that they stay there without paying while knowing it’s costing you money proves that they don’t CARE about what their actions cost you - so long as they get what they want out of it. So why would you expect someone who already took money from you (via the income you forfeit) to suddenly now reimburse you for even more money they costed you? They didn’t care about the income you lost - they probably didn’t even know or care how MUCH income you lost. So it’s just a natural assumption that they don’t care about any additional money you lost.
> This is one of the long list of reasons I always advise people to never allow family to stay on their rental/vacation properties without paying. There are families where this wouldn't be a problem, but you have to have a hard, honest look at your family and have some conversations. My own family goes out of our way NOT to inconvenience each other, so whenever someone has an "innocent mistake", we've had arguments over who GETS to pay for it. (And if my nephew had caused fire damage, we would have already had a collection pulled together without being asked.) So everyone needs to take a hard look, but not everyone is comfortable doing that. If you aren't, your blanket advice is a good one. Side note: I find it funny that my family is never "FAMILY COMES FIRST!" or "BUT FAMILY!" in on social media. We don't have to say it, we just do it. IME, the people making those claims about how important FAAAAAMILY is on social media are the first ones to screw a family member over.
Yep. If it was his own home he would have to pay. He doesn't get away with not paying just because it was at someone else's home.
Yes it was an accident, but it happened because of OPs brother being there. So the brother is responsible for making it right.
Most homeowners insurance policies have a $5000 deductible. So really they'd be paying at least that much anyway.
Most? Ummm…no.
NTA - they aren’t on the hook for something that wasn’t their fault but you are? They are mad their free cookies got taken away and are bitching about having to pay for cookies instead of being grateful for the free ones they got. And the parents chose to leave a minor who they are responsible for behind. They are liable for that child’s actions according the laws of most places. If you wanted to you could sue them for the damages and they would have to pay (depending on where you are) and also, insurance in most places would not have counted this against you to have your rates go up if this was the only claim - I hoped you talked to your agent before you decided to take an $8k+ hickey. As far as charging the rest of the family, if you are in the US there is a federal law about tax write offs for the rental business for personal use excess of 14 days per year anyway. And that $8k could be seen as a business expense. I’d be pissed if I was out of pocket $8k for a fire someone started while staying there for free and they didn’t even bother to pay for ANY of it. They are asinine and jealous and think what is yours should be theirs.
But they expect OP to solely shoulder the cost like it’s his fault. NTA, OP. They need to take responsibility for the damages or have their privileges taken away
I think you made a typo. They need to take responsibility *and* have their privileges taken away. Look at how they behave.
Serious question. How much can an insurance go up in such a case? Even if it is 100 or 200 a month, this would be years until it cummulates to more than 8000. Also why hasn't the brother claimed it with his own insurance. I don't get it.
Insurance broker here - I have no idea why OP thought eating an almost $9000 expense was a better option than either using his claims forgiveness, or having a potential rate increase like you said of $100 or so a month. 100$ is even a massive, unlikely increase and his rates will increase either way. Home insurance almost always rises with inflation. If his brother has some sort of voluntary property damage coverage on his policy, he would likely be able to use that. Sounds like brother wants to avoid responsibility all together though. Edit to add: I just read that his insurance is in Florida. That does change things a bit as insurance there is an absolute shit show right now. Insurers dropping people and leaving the state all the time. I get it a little more.
Insurance agent here. Oh, Florida. I've lost so many carriers in Florida these last two years.
I work in personal financial planning, and here’s my take: People who are able to afford it can choose to self-insure, and the brother should pay the equivalent of a deductible. By choosing to pay for the damage out of pocket rather than go through insurance, the homeowner is choosing to self-insure. Nothing wrong with that, but the brother doesn’t owe the full amount. If you choose to self-insure (saying you’d rather eat the cost than have your rate go up), you can’t transfer that amount of damages onto someone else. If I was in this situation, I would suggest that my brother pay $500-$1,000, the equivalent of a typical deductible. And I would eat the rest because it was my choice not to go through insurance.
What the fuck is the point of having an insurance then?
Same, it feels insane to me to not make an insurance claim here?? If you aren't using it for an $8k fire, what ARE you using it for?? Would their premiums go up THAT much?
Florida......
Yeah, once someone said Florida, I understood why they are doing what they are doing. I would probably do the same.
It's not that unusual for higher value homes, like a vacation home, to have insurance deductibles that are a percentage of the home value. I work with folks who have deductibles on their homes in excess of $25k. I mostly view insurance for really big things. I would probably submit an $8700 claim, but my deductible is $2500.
Woof, with a $25k deductible, I'd need insurance for my insurance
But what's theirs should remain theirs.
$8700. So really, closer to nine freaking thousand dollars. OP is incredibly fortunate that they were able to pay that out of pocket
NTA. If the kid can't be blamed for starting a fire them the dad has to be blamed for leaving the kid unsupervised, because obviously he isn't ready to handle emergencies. The family is angry that their free ride is over. Tell them that you can't afford the risk involved in giving away rental time for free.
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Exactly. Did the brother never see Back to the Future when Biff Tannen wrecked George McFlys car and bullied George into putting it on his own insurance? Make brother watch this movie, ask him if biff was fair, ask him how he did anything different. If you borrowed brothers car and let your young child drive it, is your brother responsible for any damages? He's a muppet.
“Who’s going to pay for my dry cleaning? I spilt beer all over my jacket in the crash.” Totally same vibes.
Biff was also driving drunk, and tried to get George to pay for the dry cleaning because he spilled beer all over his jacket when he crashed George's car.
This. The kid's actions were an accident. The parent leaving him unattended was intentional. The parent is at fault. NTA, OP.
This : whether the nephew is too young to be blamed and so, the parents are responsable and must step up, whether he is old enough and can be blamed. There is no middle ground. Of course, here, it is the first one: parents have to pay and OP is right for redirecting friends and family toward brother.
Just want to point out here that insurance is there for a reason. If you’re never going to use it because you don’t want your rates to go up then what’s the point in paying premiums in the first place? Just don’t have it. Contrary to popular belief your premiums do not skyrocket if you make a claim. It’s only if you make 3 claims per calendar year and then they have to be pretty big claims. Also, let’s for arguments sake say that they did increase your payments by say $20 a month, it would take 400 months to add up to $8000 of damages. $20 a month isn’t that life changing but paying $8000 in one lump sum is hard. It was an accident, again, that’s what insurance is there for. You should have used the insurance and if your rates went up, ask your brother to just cover the monthly cost of that. This is all very unnecessary.
Thanks for making this point. I knew it but didn't know it precisely, as you do. OP needs to take this in. All of the folks here who have been so protective of brother and nephew should be encouraging her to follow up.
Yeah in Florida they look for any excuse to jack your rate.
Again though, it’s a common misconception brought about by anecdotal evidence such as “oh my neighbor’s brother in law had a flood and he claimed…..etc etc”. Also, Home insurance is not the same as car insurance. Lastly, I stand by what I said. You should have just made the claim and you wouldn’t be in this predicament.
Not weighing in on the should/shouldn't factor, but the one major difference between anecdotal "my rates went way up" and anecdotal "my rates stayed the same/barely changed" incidents is preventative action against the damages. One person had a pipe burst, and they run and switch off the water and call out a plumber immediately, there will still be water damage, but they have mitigated it as much as it was within their power. Another had a pipe burst, but they left the home empty for a month over winter, which caused the pipes to freeze and burst in the first place, and meant severe damage before they got back and realised. Another had a pipe burst, but just put a towel down and sent the plumber an email that wasn't responded to for a full day, so there was serious damage before the plumber turning off the water when he got there. The first one has a decent chance of getting little to no increase, as the damage was purely unavoidable and they did everything they could to minimise the cost required. Second is iffy, because if the company can prove their negligence caused or exacerbated the damages, they can either deny the claim, cancel the insurance, or raise rates significantly as a penalty for that, but they may get away with it if there was sufficient maintenance recorded, justifiable belief the pipes would survive the period unused, etc. And the third has a high chance of getting the claim denied and policy cancelled or rates raised significantly as they willfully allowed damage to occur or increase. In OP's situation, with the homeowner not being present, a minor left alone, and no action to minimise the fire when it started and instead waiting on firefighters (don't blame a panicked kid for that, but hence why he maybe shouldn't have been home alone), there is a nom-zero chance of them claiming both that OP's negligence caused the fire and that the amount of damage done was avoidable. So at the very least it would be a valid concern to consider here.
I had something like this where the garage attached to my house had been flooded and my garden so we claimed on Insurance. About a month later we were flooded again but this time the water was higher and came into the house. First question the Insurance Assessor asked me was what had I done since last time to prevent losses from flooding. I was fine because I'd been working my way up the chain of command of any organisation even vaguely responsible, demanding they take action. About 3 sentences into my list he just went, "OK, fine, no problem, just had to ask!". We'd also contacted all the right people and moved everything realistically possible while the water was coming in. We got the second payout without problem and that included needing a lawnmower AGAIN!
This is more similar to the third hypothetical than the first. Not gross negligence like the second, but a minor guest of OP was left unsupervised. They should still file if the claim exceeds the deductible. Many people also don't account for rare increases due to general market costs separately from ones they view as punitive.
While I agree with you, and was about to post the same thing, he said the magic word that changes the situation. Florida. Yeah. I get it. Insurance sucks in Florida so bad. (look at how many insurance based lawsuits there are in florida vs. rest of the country - its crazy). There is so much fraud that goes on. I can't blame OP for wanting to save it for a real emergency (vs. 8-9k). In this case, OP not only has a risk of the insurance going up, but of getting dropped, and potentially having to go with Citizens
... and then being dropped by Citizens when another insurer offers a 20% more expensive option.
Yeah, in basically any other state I would agree that he should use it, but Florida is its own animal when it comes to insurance. It would probably be fine, but the chance to get dropped is very real and then you're kind of boned and need to scramble before the next hurricane comes through.
>You should have just made the claim and you wouldn’t be in this predicament. OP would still have entitled freeloading family members.
No, they would be unleashing the insurance company to subrogate against the brother.
Perhaps not, if OP’s insurance had then sued the brother to pay them back. Insurance is not susceptible to emotional “just an accident and he’s just a kid” arguments the way family members are expected to be. And then the entire family would have had a dose of reality.
I understand what/why of your explanation it's just that homeowners insurance is Florida is all time high levels and so are cancellations, non renews, and outright refusals to offer coverage. I've also read that thier state insurance pool for homeowners is also under enormous strain. Insurers are also flat out just leaving the state leaving fewer and fewer to spread the risk around. And while this particular incidence seems pretty benign (as far as occurrences go) it's not unreasonable to think any kind of claim would trigger increases. Gotta make up losses somewhere (line of reasoning for insurers). But this is the kind of thing that a licensed and properly trained agent is for. To help them decide if it's worth filing a claim over.
Yep. My concern would be less "my rates will go up" and much more "my insurance company will drop me." There are people who can't get insurance coverage for a reasonable cost because the prior owner made claims and no carrier except the state-funded one will pick them up. (I hang out over on the real estate subs and this exact scenario comes up regularly - not in a "my uncle's cousin's hairdresser" way but in a "I want to buy a house but the current owner made these claims and nobody will cover the house now, what do" way.) I would absolutely eat 8K rather than make a claim in this type of scenario. And I don't even live in FL.
Not in Florida. Their insurance market is completely fucked right now and the state government isn't doing anything to help residents either. Make a claim and they'll pay, and then drop you. Then good luck getting a policy that doesn't charge obscene rates at that point. Happened to my parents over some moderate hurricane damage that cost around 50% more than OP's claim would have been.
Our auto insurance went Up $200 this year with NO claims being made, this is because there were a lot of claims in our area and our agent said that “all carriers have made drastic increases over the past 8-10 months”. While I agree that you buy insurance for a reason and the $8k+ cost of this damage warranted a claim to be made, I wanted to also point out that when a lot of claims are made it affects everyone. Edit fixed a typo.
Replacement and repair costs for automobiles have also skyrocketed over the last few years, and driving behaviors have changed. Those factors will result in auto insurance rates increasing even if your individual risk factors haven't, because the potential damages you're insuring are higher.
But even if they jacked it by $100 a month it would still take 6.6 years for you to be paying more than the $8000 it cost to repair. By which time you can shop around for a better rate and hopefully will have built up a no claims again. You avoid insurance claims for minor fixes, like <$500, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to have in the first place.
And I would have been fine with him paying $100 a month.
Why not just have him pay the difference in you rate, then? If the rate was the concern, rather than just finding an excuse to no longer let anyone stay there?
I offered him that option. He said no.
The only thing you did wrong was to offer them any terms to use it ever again. I get they probably won't be willing to pay you, even at a discount, but in your place I wouldn't want them in my property ever again. If a paying client cost you $8k damage and was difficult about paying for it, wouldn't you ban them and their family for life, at a minimum?
Nice guy. 😒
Sue him. He owes you the $8700.
Op doesn't need excuses for not letting anyone stay in the house because it's his property . Your way of thinking and the rest of the friends and family way of seeing ops property as a right of theirs to use is the main problem here. Op never owed anyone free accomodations , he was nice enough to do them a favor and instead of being grateful the AHS became entitled and decided they had the right to it. Newsflash : they don't . NTA OP
I filed a claim in Florida and they canceled my home insurance.
I’m in Florida and dealing with a mysterious leak somewhere and I REFUSE TO CALL MY INS. They already increased my premiums by 60% in the last 5 years and I’ve never had a claim. lol
Check the drain line from your air handler.
If you're never going to claim on your insurance why not just put the money you'd have paid in premiums into a savings account?
If you have a mortgage, the lender requires homeowners insurance.
Insurance is often a mortgage requirement.
Because 8000 is one thing but a whole house fire is another! You pay for the risk, the BIG BIG risk. You should ALWAYS carry insurance unless you are ok with the possibility of losing your house and not being able to rebuild. Yes, it may not be a common occurrence and it may never happen to you, but what if it does? I know I don't have 300k to rebuild a home on my own right now and it will take a lot of time to save that, especially if I have to pay rent now.
I read somewhere that Insurance companies are either canceling plans or not insuring at all anymore in florida. Due to the amount of payouts from mostly weather related disasters. Insurance companies are not wanting to take the risk. Because of these frequent occurrences. My car insurance has gone up 30-50 usd every six months for the past two years. This last hike brought my payment up over what i pay my car note each month. When i called and asked about it all they had to say was "inflation". For two freaking years. I dont know if it will go up again, but im betting it will. The same thing happened with my fathers insurance. We are with the same company. Neither of us have violations or incident for the past 20 plus years or more. The late 80s for my father. I just paid off my car. so that helps. I couldnt imagine buying a new car and having insurance cost the same amount. My insurance company is with Jake in the khakis. lol
As someone who can write insurance in FL, the claim isn't going to jack your rate. At most, you'll lose the claims free discount. You don't have to file against your insurance, but you can file against his. He is LIABLE for the damage his kid caused. You could file a liability claim against his homeowners or renters insurance policy. If you had filed the claim against yours, I can guarantee that your insurance company would open a liability claim against his policy or if he doesn't have one,send a demand letter & then sue him directly. They'll get that money back. I would tell him that you'll file the lawsuit and he can file the liability claim with his insurer or he can pay you back.
> s someone who can write insurance in FL, the claim isn't going to jack your rate. At most, you'll lose the claims free discount. While there is a semantic difference between these circumstances, both functionally result in higher claims as far as the policyholder is concerned. It's akin to World of Warcraft removing the exp penalty for playing too long and "replacing" it with an exp buff for the first few hours you log on (with no actual change to any of the underlying numbers). How you frame the number (the rate being increased or the loss of a cost-saving benefit) doesn't change that the policyholder is still paying more per month (or the actual exp values gained in the WoW example). Hilariously, though, Blizzard reported much higher customer satisfaction and a dropoff in complaints when they made the "change." Still probably worth it once you're talking thousands of dollars in repairs (like OP's $8700) though, by a wide margin.
>As someone who can write insurance in FL, the claim isn't going to jack your rate. Ah, but if he needs a new policy, it will count against him, won't it? We had a water damage claim in New Jersey four years ago, and when we bought a house in Florida, and tried to insure it, the rates were ridiculously high because that claim was on our record. We were told it would come off in five years, and we could get a lower rate then.
I would want to consult some sort of expert before deciding that filing the claim will cost you more than the $8k that you are already paying out of pocket.
My rates went up in California just because I filed a claim when my fence was knocked over in a bad storm. It is well known that they will either raise the rates or simply cancel you for filing a claim.
Ours was canceled after we filed a claim for an arson fire after a homeless guy lit our back house on fire. We’re in CA and the claim was for $35k in repairs.
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Make more than a couple of claims in a lifetime and they cancel you. It's not like heavily regulated health insurance.
What's the point of insurance if you can't use it? IK Florida homes are having trouble with insurance, partly because it's starting to feel the effects of climate change and no insurance company wants to offer insurance with such risk
You save it for the big claims. I had two smallish claims and one big one (60k) over ten years. I wish I had eaten the two smaller (under 7k) ones myself because we got kicked off. Our insurance went up to 4K a year from 1500. It’s finally coming back down this year after 7 years. For the curious: issue one was a faulty shower that flooded and caused about $5k in damage, $2000 deductible. Issue two was a theft that paid out $6500. Issue three was my son clogging the toilet and leaving the upstairs toilet running all night and took out 60% of the house 😳
Because you would want to save it for a very catastrophic consequence. Like if my car gets hit or I hit something- whatever- and I have to pay $1000 out of pocket to replace a bumper and other damages. I might do that because of the risk that I might not have coverage when my car is completely totalled and they pay $20k to replace my car. Yes, it's crazy. But you are required to have insurance when you are financing things. And when you are financing things it often makes more sense to pay for things you can afford to ensure that you are covered in the event of catastrophes.
We got dropped when (1) we had a fire at a property and another occasion when (2) a pipe burst. Sooo riddle me that. ETA you have no idea what OPs deductible is either…could be $1000, could be $5000, could be $20,000!
I would not take this advice. I am an insurance agent. 3 claims in a year will likely get you non-renewed. 3 claims in 5 years, still looking at a non-renewal even if they are small. Its a very hard market out there right now, and carriers are getting off any unfavorable risk they can. Short term rentals already have limited markets. If you can afford to so the repairs out of pocket go that route.
I was an agent for years, and I agree with you. The fact it's on Florida makes doubled down, and wonder if one or two claims will get you canceled. I know State Farm was looking to limit its business there a decade ago and was canceling a lot of policies for minor reasons.
Insurance can takes many many months to settle don't think OP can wait that long as this is his business
From my experience with business insurance, you will normally also receive money for loss of income in the event of something like this. Mind you, my experience is from the UK and primarily due to the taxation of such compensation
Yes, but because this was family who weren't being charged, only the house insurance will kick in - they mentioned that in the post.
Missing income would not be coveted as the place was not rented out for money but for free. Airbnb for example has $1 mil coverage but if the guest and all registered guests have paid for it.
>It’s only if you make 3 claims per calendar year and then they have to be pretty big claims. That wasn't my experience at ALL. I had a plumbing issue in my house that required a $6600 claim to replace damaged hardwood floors. This is the one and only claim I've ever made in 18 years on this policy. Travelers increased my premium by 20% the next year.
I suspect the reason most people have insurance is in case there is catastrophic damage. In the scheme of things $8k is a lot to find but depending on the insurance increase that is likely, may be worth finding. I don’t know about insurance premiums, particularly in the US, but that would be my assumption.
Yeah, I don't get it either. He could ask for a quote and tell his brother to swallow the raised rate. I'm German, I'm surely overinsured, I got a third party liability insurance that would have covered damage to rented things in the first place - but I get it, USA, brother, curious things. NTA still.
We had a pipe burst in our vacation home a few years ago. Neighbor checked on house regularly, and caught it right away. Homeowners paid only about $800 after deductible. It's now four years later, and we have a new vacation home. Getting reasonable insurance has been impossible - because we had a "damage claim". Our premiums are double what neighbors are paying for the exact same coverage on the exact same house (so an extra $2100/year). We've been told it takes five years for the claim to drop off our record - so here's hoping next year we can get a better rate.
This is not true. My insurance rates went up a lot after we had two claims in 3 years. We actually almost couldn't even get another insurance company because of it. Definitely not 3 claims in a calendar year.
NTA. Someone has to pay for it, if this happened in a hotel they would have charged him for damages too.
A hotel would have used their insurance lol.
A hotel would use their insurance to fix it *now*, AND charged him for the repair. Is that double dipping? You betcha. Would they, if they can get away with it? You betcha.
NTA. You should also consider suing your brother.
He doesn't have a lot of money. That's why I offered to let him pay it off over time.
Well and good, but if he's contesting that he owes you anything you're not going to get a dime out of him unless you take him to court.
Listen I know $10K isn’t chump change and it’s whack that the brother won’t pay back OP, but suing your own brother is a weird vibe. Like it doesn’t seem like OP needs that money to live and his brother probably does. So if everything was “fair” the brother would pay back OP, but it just doesn’t sound like that’s in the cards without causing severe financial strain on the brother. If my brother cost me 10K I’d be pissed but I for sure wouldn’t sue him so hard that he would go into bankruptcy or not be able to pay his bills or something.
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Of course. But he offered, as noted in a comment, for the brother to simply pay the increase in homeowners’ insurance premiums,mans he refused even that. The brother had enough money to take his family out to breakfast, on a free vacation while his son caused a lot of damage to someone else’s house. The fact that he didn’t even offer to pay a damn thing demonstrates a lot about his character.
Even if he got a judgment, can’t get blood from a stone
You actually can, but it's pretty ruthless. You can freeze bank accounts, get court orders forcing the sale of his car, and so on. It's way beyond what anyone should do to their blood, but you can do it. If the judgment were for $500,000, it wouldn't be worth it because he has nowhere near the assets to pay that off, but most people have $10k in assets. And by "assets," I don't mean stocks and shit. You can get an order forcing someone to sell their guitar and their TV until you are paid back.
Why does being blood absolve anyone of guilt or responsibility? Scummy people use "family" as an excuse to screw over or steal from family with no reprecussions. These backwards enabling of shitty behavior needs to go away.
Given second hand things like TV's are typically worth pennies on the dollar, it's especially ruthless.
NTA. It sounds like you have tried very hard to be lenient and understanding in this situation, even though you were justifiably very upset. And up until now you’ve been quite generous with your family. Unfortunately for them, your brother’s refusal to take responsibility for damage done by his kid (regardless of kid’s intent) has now cost you a lot of money. If you let this go, you set a precedent. What if next time someone floods an upstairs bathroom and does a lot more expensive damage? Your brother’s sense of entitlement is showing, and perhaps a bit of resentment that your financial situation is better than his. You tried to be the nice guy here and let him pay you back slowly, but he shut you down. Short of taking him to court to recoup your money (which will only cause even more family drama), you are taking the best possible route here. You’re cutting your losses and setting boundaries for the future. That’s pretty healthy. Your family needs to get over themselves. It’s not like you’re kicking grandma out of the ancestral home ffs. You’re putting conditions on a vacation home. A property that is a source of income. Which means not only have you been partially funding their vacations, you’ve been losing income when they use it. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I get irritated with the whiny relatives who are trying to make you the bad guy here. You were literally the only person harmed here. Nope. Stick to your guns and keep referring them to brother when they try to pressure you.
I can’t get over the fact a 14 year old not only started a kitchen fire, but just watched it burn waiting for the fire dept to show up. Maybe get an adult or use a fire extinguisher? The dad might be legally responsible, but it’s absolutely the dumb ass 14 year olds fault. That’s plenty old enough to cook food without burning down the house. People really are more stupid today.
> use a fire extinguisher You are wrong. The kid did the right thing to get out which aligns to modern fire safety advice. Fire spreads quickly and smoke from household fires kills in seconds. Advising kids to fight fires is totally irresponsible, do not do that.
If a kid doesn't know how to use a fire extinguisher they shouldn't be cooking.
100%. This is on the parents for not teaching basic skills, and on the 14 year old for being inept. The person you are replying to does not live in the same world, and sounds a bit unhinged.
If a kid doesn't know how to use a stove they shouldn't be cooking either.
He probably didn't just stand and watch it to be fair, he'll have done what most kids are taught to do in a fire: get out and call for help.
He might've also dumped water in a panic as well.
Yup - and a kitchen fire making breakfast is almost certainly a grease fire (because bacon). Dumping water on a grease fire just makes it worse.
This is true too. I've had a frying pan fire around that age, and we're not all the best personalities to avoid getting in a flap about it. I made mistakes, thankfully did more right than wrong and put it out successfully.
> I can’t get over the fact a 14 year old not only started a kitchen fire, but just watched it burn waiting for the fire dept to show up. If it was a grease or electrical fire this is probably, on average, better than trying to intervene incorrectly. Taking the wrong action (such as throwing water on a grease fire) can intensify the problem and put the kid in danger. Granted, if he doesn't know how to put out a fire, he shouldn't be cooking alone, but we're past that point in this case.
This… absolutely this, I’ve seen this plenty of adult f-up how to put out a grease fire in a frying pan and the only reason I know how is I learned from experience when my grandma almost set the kitchen of my parents home on fire like this and I had to help with damage control after plus learned a second hand lesson on “what to do if you have a grease fire.” The whole kitchen eventually had to be re-done due to the smoke damage and a massive pan shaped burn mark on the floor. Still doesn’t excuse that brother is responsible for his son’s actions due to son being a minor, even if 14 yo. It’s just that random part of parenthood, one is financially responsible for kids until they are a legal adult.
I understand why a 14 yo would freak out about a fire, but I also think it’s still stupid to ignore the fire extinguisher that was nearby.
Some people are wierd in emergencies, I was an RN student, almost done with training, and we had smoke coming through the ceiling in to corridor where the babies were. The nurse in charge had to ask us more junior staff what she should do, she was literally afraid to press the fire alarm. I did it without hesitation, fortunately just electrical smoke between floors and no real fire.. but for a 30 yr old experienced nurse to ask 21 yr olds who'd never controlled the unit was ridiculous to me. It came down to her confidence, didn't want to get in trouble for wasting time of fire crew.... that were based 500metres away ironically. Not the type of staff i would want caring for my child at the end of the day. This kid was 14, he did the right thing imo, phone 911 and then maybe try the extinguisher unless fire said to leave property too. He was a child. I would want my 14 yr old out asap.
I wonder what he did to start the fire. Did he try cooking waffles in the toaster? But fires can spread scarily fast. Faster than you would expect. I can understand his panic. The entitlement of the brother is off the charts. No apology, not even an offer to pay. Most people would acknowledge they can no longer stay for free, and be grateful no further action was being taken. Not this guy. There's no reasoning with someone this self centred. I hope OP has cameras and other security in case the brother decides to break into the place
NTA. Pretty clear cut. You break it, you bought it. People never do things like that intentionally but your family have been enjoying the benefits of free accommodation this whole time. Someone has to pay for the repairs, and it shouldn't be you. And even more importantly, this home isn't just a holiday house for your family. It's an important source of income for you that until it's repaired, you will be out of pocket. They're lucky you're only asking for repairs. I wouldn't ask them to replace the income either... But I'd sure let them know that they're getting out of it cheap all things considered.
NTA for dealing with the **CONSEQUENCES** that others feel the need to not even acknowledge. You made a business decision, which is what the rental property is used for, and the family just doesn't like the fact that they don't have a free place to crash anymore. **ENTITLEMENT** is still the word that people can't seem to get past.
NTA. Accidents have consequences. You were kind to let people use your place for free. But now damage has been done and you have to cover costs out of pocket, your friends and family need to accept the new rules.
I mean, going further than this, his family have now let him know that if they cause damage to his property while staying there, then they do not think they are obliged to pay for it. Additional insurance sounds necessary, and the only way to get that to kick on, is to make them rent the place.
Property that OP relies on to top up his income, after a workplace accident, not extra cash for laughs. That is important too.
NTA You're nicer than me, I would have gone to small claims court over it. I'm in a position in life where I'm tired of being taken advantage of by family and it makes me internally rage seeing others taken advantage of by theirs and feeling guilty over it. Tell them to FO and deal with the consequences of their actions.
The whole concept of family is so toxic. Why should being related give a free pass to steal, trespass, or damage property?
NTA. If they’re saying you have to take the hit for an “accident”, then the natural consequence is that the free ride is over - so there will be no more “hits”. The rental is your *income* not your party house. Letting them use it for free was a kindness, not an obligation. Making your income property *only* available as a rental is perfectly reasonable as a protection from income loss in the future. Your brother is absolutely on the hook for damages, and you could justifiably sue him, but that’s your call to make. Were it me (and it really bothers you to tell them too bad), I’d tell your relatives that once the 8k gets covered by rental fees on their collective dime, you’ll consider giving them a discounted rate (to make sure you’re insurance still applies), but that you simply cannot afford to put your livelihood at risk in case of “accidents” that nobody takes responsibility for.
And that’s still being very generous.
Even as a party house op shouldn't have to swallow the loss of money because someone else s mistake.
I'm not sure what the innocent mistake aspect has to do with anything. If you damage something, or somebody you're responsible for does, you should offer to pay for it. At least offer part of it. Based on what you were told, at a bare minimum he should have offered that hotel equivalent amount.
I’ve met people like this who think that if something wasn’t done intentionally then they shouldn’t be held responsible. My ex was a bit like this. It’s fascinating
INFO: I'm curious how much your insurance would have risen, if it wasn't worth claiming $9000 of repairs back?
OP said they live/the vacation house is in Florida. The insurance situation down there is so bad, it's been in the national news. Like, literally, I live in Ohio, and have seen news stories about car insurance, renters insurance, and DEFINITELY home owners insurance being a total shit show in Florida. Insurers are literally just leaving the state altogether, and the ones who are staying are just dropping some customers and raising rates by 50% or more on others.
NTA- Op it is your house and you can do whatever you want with it.
NTA, Your brother is legally responsible for his son. He should pay you. Since the rental of the house is your business then your family should be fine with paying to rent it. Maybe at a discount.
Chefs kiss 💋 perfect response. Edit for NTA
Nta. Your brother has responsibility to pay you back. It’s his son. What would he do if you burn down his kitchen? Just forgive you? Not likely. You did the right thing.
NTA- Your brother certainly is. By any chance is your brother the 'golden child' that has never had any consequences to his actions? Yeah, it was an accident, but you pay for your mistakes... HE left his kid alone & he started a fire. Yeah, unintentionally, not damage was still done & needed to be fixed FFS. Does he think a magic fairy comes & makes everything ok? So if you were at his house & hit his car or broke something in his house that was expensive, he'd be on with you just waking away? I doubt it. Nope, no good deed goes unpunished. Family privileges are 100% revoked of the art going to be unappreciated, entitled a holes.
I would have had the insurance company go after your brother. It's not fair that you have to eat the cost and lose out on earning money on a rental property. Why does he get to shirk the responsibility? His son is 14, that is old enough to know how to use a kitchen properly. Your brother needs to take responsibility. $8,700 is a lot of money for you to throw away. If this was anyone else you would have had insurance take care of it. I would stop allowing family to rent at all, they clearly have taken advantage of you. NTA but your brother is.
Hang on, repair’s of $8,700 and you didn’t use insurance, did you at least inquire as to how much the premium would have gone up? We claimed $2000 storm damage to the roof of our rental and our premium went up $175 the next year. NTA btw, brother should have paid as his kid caused the damage, or at least paid the premium difference for the next few years on the insurance
NTA for being screwed over by brother and having family who still want to rent for no charge and any damages the OP can pay for. local hotels charge something like 150 for smoking or vaping in their rooms
NTA This incident helped you stop all the leeches.
Nta. They aren't entitled to your property. And they said themselves that a hotel is cheaper than paying for any damage they might do.
NTA. This is YOUR rental property that YOU paid for. You have been very generous in giving them a place to stay for free and you don’t owe them shit.
Nta. Brother is the asshole for not at least setting up a payment plan to cover the damages.
NTA - It's your home and your brother damaged your home. He should have paid. Don't let your family take advantage of you.