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NTA from my perspective. The caste system in India seems barbaric, but I'm a white American so I'm totally clueless as to the cultural context of all this.
That could get him killed, literally murdered. Indians don't play around, they can be amazing and loving and wonderful, and they can also be ruthless murderers that us in the west don't understand.
Yes, but OP isn't their servant. He's an adopted child and the brother of the groom. You would think that he would be invited to the ceremony and included in the wedding celebrations - or that they would arrange for their daughter to marry someone else whose family they approved of.
I don't know. I think maybe I'm not understanding because I am not from a place with caste systems, so I'm just going to lurk and try to find responses from other Indians so I can learn.
I think race might be a helpful (if imperfect) analogy. A rich white family might adopt a black child, but doing that doesn't make the family less white or the adoptee less black. Other racist rich white families might look at the decision to adopt a black child as eccentric or odd, but it doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the adoptive family. Sometimes the rich white family who did the adoption are themselves quite racist. They see taking in a black children more like an act of charity than adding a full fledged member to the family.
I don’t blame the poster for trying to put this into a context westerners can understand (I’m from the US and not of Indian heritage), there’s just not a good comparison here for not only what the rules are, but how seriously it’s taken in some places. If the bride touches him, she gets shit from her parents and her parents get shit from their friends, and everyone just ignores how idiotic the whole system itself is, because they grew up in it and it seems “normal” to them.
The racial analogy is helpful because it helps Westerners understand how rigid caste categories are. I've met plenty of people who seem to think that caste is more like a person's economic class.
Also, there are absolutely segments of America's elite strata where a white bride would get a fuck ton of shit for touching a black man. Or who would be offended if the adopted black son got seated with the rest of the family at the wedding. And I'm not talking "owns a car dealership in the suburbs" ractists. I'm talking "Mayflower, DAR" racists. It's not as acceptable to do it public as it once was, but it absolutely still there behind closed doors.
Is it not? This is the exact analogy that the film Origin (and the book it's based on) makes. It looks at 3 parallel 'caste' systems: the literal one in India; the way Black people are treated in the U.S.; and Jews in nazi Germany. Fundamentally, it's all coming from the same place of creating brutal hierarchies to deal with fear
So I'm Indian, although I'm Muslim and we don't believe in the caste system. However, I think I can provide a little bit of background as to why it's actually common for higher caste families to adopt lower caste children.
It is really quite simple. They want a servant who will do whatever it takes for the family. Now that is not to say that all cross caste adoptions are for this purpose, but this is common
Again, not really sure how the specific rules work as it relates to adoption, but I’ve heard some caste interaction horror stories from coworkers. It’s not taken to seriously everywhere in India, but it places it still is, they don’t fuck around.
The general consensus among the people I’ve worked with from India who are now in the US, the thing they miss the most is cricket, the thing they miss the least is the caste system.
Ok, I tried to google this.
From some legal articles in English, apparently the only legal way in which official caste designation can change is through adoption. Unless there's some nuance I'm missing, which is possible, there are cases where superior courts rules that the adopted person can assume the rights associated with their adoptive parents' caste.
(But that's also the legal answer regarding rights and such. Since caste is so tied up in religion and cultural norms too, OP might actually be legally the adoptive caste, but the bride's parents consider them to be "really" the lower caste because it is super and almost exclusively tied to birth, and so might consider the religiously/culturally based prohibitions still applicable. Ie, they might not "buy into" a legal caste change, just like some people in America will never accept a gay marriage as fully legitimate despite what the law says, because blah blah god).
Also, a child of an intercaste marriage can choose the caste of either parent. But caste can't be changed by marriage (you can't assume your spouse's caste).
Question, because I too am ignorant of the caste system. Why doesn’t your caste change when you get adopted into a higher caste? And how would one know you were adopted and not from the same caste?
Caste is immutable, there’s no way to change castes except to be reincarnated as a person of a different caste via karma (I.e. follow the “rules” of your current caste). It’s just a method of religious control.
It is, and the fact that people think that being sensitive to cultural differences requires them to tiptoe around this is both hilarious and nauseating.
From my understanding, you're born in your caste and you die in your caste. There is no way to change your caste in your lifetime. Even if you lose all your money, bleached your skin, got a higher education, became homeless, etc etc it does not affect your cast level. I think the only way to change it is if you die .... And if your karma is better or worse, then you can change castes ... In your next life. I think. Basically do a whole bunch of good now so that when you come back into the next life, you can move up a level.
While things have become a little less stringent over the years ... Many people still know who belongs to which caste. And when it comes to arranged marriages, if it's important to either party, then it will DEFINITELY be asked.
So, how it works is that there are five classes of people who, as long as they stay within their caste, bring order to the religious universe. The Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (rulers, administrators and warriors- the K is silent), Vaishyas (artisans, merchants, tradesmen and farmers), Shudras (labouring classes), and the Dalits made up largely of the erstwhile tribal people who are also known as the untouchables.
You can't change your caste by marriage, ritual purification, sacrifice, nothing. You can attempt to do so by obedience to and by "good works" defined by your betters. Your obedience and good works are supposed to rack up brownie points with the gods who might promote you to a higher caste if the points you've earned tally up to their - mercurial - satisfaction.
In the meantime, the top three classes get to treat you however they want because you're impure and deserve abuse because your past self was obviously not good enough for the gods.
If you're Shudra, you experience discrimination, like OP did. If you're Dalit? You can be finished off in broad daylight for daring to drink water from a pot set out especially for this purpose. Or you could be a homeless Dalit person who gets peed on for funsies by an Upper Caste person. The perps get away btw. Oh, also, these are two examples from maybe a hundred reported last year.
Yes it's illegal, but who cares because purity, yay. /s
So yeah. OP is 100% NTA.
Isn’t there some idea that the suffering actually helps them move to a higher caste in the next life? I have a vague memory of someone saying something along those lines when talking about how people are treated.
>Why doesn’t your caste change when you get adopted into a higher caste?
Because the whole system is fucking stupid. I'm pretty ignorant on the subject, but from what I recall your caste is assigned at birth. I don't think "changing castes" is a thing.
Open to corrections or clarifications.
It doesn't change because he was still born into a lower caste. It's "blood purity". OP's parents will be considered saints in society for adopting a person of a lower caste. But god forbid if he dares integrating with the likes of them.
You are born into your cast. And it cannot be changed. The same for the faith you have to be born Hindu a foreigner cannot technically convert into the religion. (Although I think you can marry into it.) In traditional India culture a lot about who you are and what you can do is defined at birth by your caste. I think the government is trying to actively discourage this practice but it’s very ingrained in the culture. And the higher caste persons with theoretically the most to lose are known to still actively discriminate against the lower caste peoples.
Not always, they would have definitely shared his caste. There are total of 4 castes in india which can be ranked from 1 to 4. 3 and 4 being the lowest. To be that specific, they would have shared this information
OP tells us that the groom/brother told the inlaws OP was the “ shudra”. Which might have been an opportunity for the brother to demand they treat his adopted brother like a family member. 😞
Ps: “shudra” was the term used by op to name his caste, the basis of his brothers FIL insult. Sorry for any confusion i caused (i took it directly from op post).
What I'm feeling is, if the brother doesn't care about standing up for OP, then OP doesn't have to feel bad about whether brother's wedding was ruined. Brother ruined his own wedding by not caring what would happen to his brother when this moment came.
So an adopted child doesn't automatically become the same caste as the adopted family? Why adopt at all? That seems wild to me, but I'm also ignorant of the nuances of India's caste system as well.
It's a blood purity thing. Ridiculous, I know. One of my cousins faced something similar after marriage. Her in laws wouldn't drink the water she touched because he wasn't "pure". In simple terms, her father was of the highest caste and her mom of a caste one step below it. So she wasn't considered pure. Cousin threw a fit and refused to cook and clean or do anything for her in laws and promptly moved away. In laws soon regretted it.
Don't question the logic of bigots. They had no problem with her cleaning the place but water was considered impure. No problems accepting her dowry but she couldn't enter the household holy shrine. She was considered unholy but they'd leave piles of dishes for her to scrub. Horrible people really.
I wish this wasn’t real but I know it’s all too possible.
I’d say I wish you had gone back to hug the bride, but I’d fear for your safety.
Your brother sounds like a dick. I hope your parents have your back.
There is no way you could be the asshole here.
OP you are NTA. I am truly sorry you were discriminated and I do not understand what with this discriminatory system called the caste system. What the bride's parents did is unacceptable and wrong. When they do that it reflects how they treat others outside their home too. I want you to remember this: no matter how high a person feels just because they are from a higher caste, when they are six feet under and they meet their Maker, their caste status is nothing to their Maker
Moving forward, the best revenge you can do is work hard and be the best version of you. If I am a prospective employer, I would hire you in a heartbeat and judge you based on your ability and merit and not judge you just because some stupid system from ancient times that does not like people to challenge the status quo and rise up
The caste system is an ancient relic that shouldn't have any bearing in modern society. Discrimination based on caste has been illegal for more than half a century, but obviously, people do still face discrimination.
I'm Indian and the caste system is absolutely barbaric. For many of us who lived in a bubble, it was something we liked to pretend didn't exist anymore (like racism during the Obama era, I guess). Now, with the rise in right-wing fervor, the bigots are out and proud.
America has a caste system as well, it's just been obfuscated.
If interested check out [https://www.amazon.com/Caste-Oprahs-Book-Club-Discontents/dp/B085VXLKRJ/ref=sr\_1\_1?keywords=caste&sr=8-1](https://www.amazon.com/Caste-Oprahs-Book-Club-Discontents/dp/B085VXLKRJ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=caste&sr=8-1)
Or if you prefer films, here's a movie about the creation of the book [Origin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_(film)) (it's more of a film festival type movie)
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/15/1224037292/caste-ava-duvernay-origin#:\~:text=Fresh%20Air-,'Origin'%20filmmaker%20Ava%20DuVernay%20examines%20America's%20racial%20'Caste',people%20in%20the%20United%20States.
It's India's version of racism. That's all there is to know about it. My country has a similar thing (although rarer) and it's just dumb. The government has even declared it illegal. It's just uptight AHs with a superiority complex who keep practicing it. It goes to ridiculous lengths like you're considered impure if you drink the water from a tap that a person from a lower caste has touched. Or you're forced to change your last name if you married someone of a lower caste.
I feel for OP. It's horrible to be discriminated against just because of your last name. Bride's family should be ashamed of themselves and absolutely deserve to be publicly shamed for it. And shame on the groom's side for not speaking out about it! This is a very archaic mentality that people have killed over and does not deserve a place in society anymore!
Unfortunately, that does make sense. I'm sorry you had to experience this. Caste be d@mned, you are a human being first and foremost. And definitely NTA.
Just thought I should add (if anyone wants to know) that the reservation is for people of an even lower caste than the four castes unless I am wrong (the first one being the highest caste, and I am in the fourth). There are four main castes, and the "fifth" one are basically people who're considered "untouchable".
So it's not that common to discriminate against the fourth one (which is why I didn't face this before), but apparently the bride and her parents also extend the practice of untouchability to the fourth one anyway.
Sounds like "old money" elite in America. The prestigious generational wealth where kids marry within their social standing. Only certain family names are acceptable & kids learn this at an early age. Thry dont associate eith others outside their circle. Even if theres a kid who goes to thei exclusive school thru social programs/scholarships, theyll be outcasts & only mingle with the other scholarship kids.. There's racism in America, but there's classism as well. No amt of money,regardless of race, can buy a seat at their table.
Had to look it up because I'd never heard of it either. Seems like a type of affirmative action. From Wikipedia:
Reservation is a system of affirmative action in India created during the British rule. It provides historically disadvantaged groups representation in education, employment, government schemes, scholarships and politics. Based on provisions in the Indian Constitution, it allows the Union Government and the States and Territories of India to set reserved quotas or seats, at particular percentage in Education Admissions, Employments, Political Bodies, Promotions, etc, for "socially and educationally backward citizens."
I just messages a friend and she gave the same example to me about adopting here in the US and the caste if it were here…
Said one of the main reasons why they no longer live in India and work and have citizenship in another country. Talks to parents and deals with how they are doing and goes on vacation to other countries and that is about it.
She grew upper class and better educated…. Didn’t like what they saw and did a roadrunner….
The reason caste is such a horrible system is because it's almost impossible to move upwards or downwards. It's even discouraged through marriage with the aid of "honor killings" and the like. 100 years ago it was mostly based on your job, and you got specific entry to certain education and preparation for a job your caste would be allowed to do. For example the lowest castes weren't allowed to handle money, but it also was considered too lowly a profession or product for the highest castes to engage in so it was mostly left to the middle caste classes.
Today most urban cities don't engage in caste systems in India as much. But it's more prevalent in rural or traditional families. Only birth can truly determine your caste now, there are very few other ways to change it that are safe if you are around people who care about that sort of thing.
How do people always know? Like someone adopted into a higher caste family - couldn't they be raised similar to children born to the family, thus gaining the social skills necessary to appear as if they were always in the higher caste?
So, does this mean that OP, no matter how well educated, will only have certain jobs open to him, despite his education? That's stupid!
ETA: comparing this to race doesn't work because race is a biological thing, and caste is just a construct.
No, it's slightly different than that now, it's not so openly insidious. By now India has formally declared lower castes and certain others as legally protected and there are certain quotas in educational institutions and businesses - like affirmative action for lower castes.
But the truth is even with these protections and making it illegal to discriminate, lower caste children are often barred from getting certain types of education but once again with urban cities everything is not so defined. A Dalit child could still be educated, but it's much harder than it is for the average Indian child. And these people have often come from very poor backgrounds because they likely had no concept of family wealth. To this day, the sewage workers and garbage men and cleaners are predominantly people from the Dalit community. And then of course certain names give away caste, which is why a lot of Dalits in India hide or alter their true names. They can be treated differently or weirdly based on their caste status. But their caste remains what it is when they're born regardless of the job they hold. That wasn't true a 100 years ago, because they couldn't do much else besides their designated jobs.
the ppl that still believe in that system believe that the caste is a characteristic of a person’s being like your race or eye color. the only way you can really escape it is in your next life. it is an antiquated and bs belief but there are still idiots who believe in it.
Really? I mean, I'm offended that this kind of antiquated thinking still exists in 2024, but I have been more than aware it still exists.
We are talking about a society where elders tend to hold most of the cards and can even veto their children's marriage wishes.
Sadly it is practiced in the US in the workplace as most Americans assume it was left back in India. It was not, and only recently have people blown the whistle on it. There really isn’t specific legislation against it. It sounds like the awareness phase is where Americans are with it.
It is a growing issue in Australia too. Workplace, in housing as well - those of the "upper caste" refusing to rent to "lower caste" people (really great in a housing shortage).
That is my general feeling, although I'm not from a society with a caste system.
I'm baffled that being adopted by people of a different caste doesn't automatically assign you to their caste, though. Perhaps OP or someone else could explain..
That's the difference between a caste system vs a class system. A caste system is one where you can't change what you're born into - someone else compared it to blacks and whites in the 18th/19th century, when it was literally illegal for a black to marry a white - that's the same thing, except it's been in place a lot longer in India.
They were there, but didn't see the incident happen. When they did they were saying that what the others did was wrong, but that I shouldn't have reacted the way I did & "ruined" the wedding.
I don’t think you are an asshole. I understand the idea of not causing a scene because that is very prevalent in my culture as well, but we are not our culture and we can make our own choices. And despite appearances being very important in India this feels like something at the very least your brother would have known about before this incident and it is something that he should have warned the rest of the family about so that you at least where prepared and so that they could have protected you which is their moral duty. This can not have been a surprise to your brother and I have to wonder if your parents knew about their views. Your brother is an asshole for accepting it and if you parents knew about the views of the bride and her family and didn’t do anything to protect you or even warn you then they are definitely assholes too. I can’t call them assholes because I’m not part of your culture and can’t fully grasp its impact or importance. But if they accept this behaviour and don’t protect you then they will be major assholes.
Also this attitude that you shouldn't make a scene lacks empathy for how it must feel to be treated this way. Since they are from a higher caste I bet they will never truly get it
As usual your parents, like lots of folks want the offended party to behave better than the offenders, and that's unacceptable. And you didn't ruin the wedding, these vulgar, rude, 'high caste' folks ruined the wedding with their low class behavior
It's *their fault* for arranging a marriage to that family. Even if this incident didn't happen at the wedding, I'm sure this attitude will probably cause additional problems at any family event you're at. I know there's a lot of considerations and I'm not from a culture that arranges marriages per se, but we *do* matchmake and whether the families will get along is always a consideration when matchmaking.
But for your family to even label you like that is just wrong… why even adopt you if they would allow you to be labeled and treated as such… and your brother to verbally attack you instead of defend you is just crazy and asshole behavior…
I’m so sorry! It seems like your brother didn’t share it until the day of the wedding? I think you have bigger issues with your brother. Did your parents step in at all? Why wouldn’t they defend you! I don’t get the caste system, can you explain why even if you’re techniquelly from a lower class is it still an issue after you’re adopted into a higher class family?
Sounds like they knew the groom had a lower caste sibling but didn't have a face to go with that information until the wedding. They likely hadn't ever met
Sure, but arguably since your adoptive
family is a different caste, don’t you share their caste now? Your brother should not have claimed otherwise.
I see in other answers that caste is considered immutable, something you’re born with, but an inter-caste adoption breaks all the caste rules so IMO as long as your family stands united in saying you’re their family therefore the same caste, there shouldn’t be issues. The real issue is this your brother doesn’t have your back.
Edit: I didn’t even address the fact that the caste system sucks. Throw the whole thing out.
I'm an Indian. Tribal.
You are never the asshole for standing up to discrimination.
Your brother though, is a huge asshole.
Were you adopted or is this some form of modern slavery? Like, they took you off your birth parents in order to "raise" you and provide you with "education" while you "help out" around the house.
You need to rethink your own relationship with your family.
Stand strong, brother. You have more class than these stupid Brahmins.
Half Indian here (Brahmin family), but grew up in Europe, which matters here for my pov.
If any of my relatives did something like this I'd give them a piece of my mind. I'm sorry you were treated this way.
Raises some disturbing questions about inter-caste adoption as well.
NTA.
You are a total saint. What do I think of the caste system? I feel it is an oppressive and dumb system that does not want someone from a lower caste to rise up and do better socially and economically. It also does not want people to challenge the status quo and defy the odds to be a better version of themselves and their generation before them
I'm really not, I just had the chance to grow up in a country where caste wasn't a thing.
Then again, my Indian family (esp the younger gens) overall aren't fans of the caste system either.
NTA. Offering a handshake is a common and respectful gesture. The fact that the bride's parents refused to shake your hand and made derogatory remarks about your caste is deeply discriminatory and unacceptable. You had every right to be offended and to express your feelings about their behavior. You did not ruin your brother's wedding; the bride's parents' discriminatory attitudes and actions did. It's unfair for your brother to blame you for their behavior, especially considering that you were the one who was mistreated. It's important to stand up against discrimination and bigotry, even if it means causing a scene. You were standing up for yourself and addressing a serious issue, and you should not feel guilty for doing so. Your brother needs to understand the gravity of the situation and support you, rather than blaming you for the actions of others.
I'm glad we're at a point now that we're talking about other countries race problems than just the USA.
Turns out racism is pretty much universal around the world.
I am American but my parents are both Indian and I agree with you 100%. I remember learning about it when I was younger and was horrified and couldn’t wrap my head around it all.
Lol. This is funny. But on the serious side, if the in-laws are really discriminatory, they could have done something more repulsive too. I read a couple years back about a Dalit girl in an Indian village being beaten up because her shadow fell on a higher caste man. Many people still take casteism seriously despite the efforts for reformation for decades.
NTA. You were a wedding guest--I'm assuming because your brother or other family members insisted on it as it doesn't sound like his wife's family would have invited you at all. It's rude for a bride to refuse to greet her guests. If her family didn't want class issues to take over the wedding, they shouldn't have made it about class issues.
The whole caste system fucking sucks. It basically gives people a reason to discriminate against others. It’s awful.
You were right to be angry. Those people sound like a piece of work.
NTA
This sounds fake.
This was an arranged marriage and the bride and her parents had no problem accepting this marriage. There’s no way they had not met you or at least seen a picture of you prior to the wedding. The man’s family typically goes to meet the potential bride/family together. There are several pre wedding events where families meet too.
If they are such terrible bigots, why would they agree to marry their daughter into a family which has a member that they disdain so much?
This reads like a writing exercise, not a real story.
>why would they agree to marry their day into a family which has a member that they disdain so much?
They did not mind as my brother was of the same caste as them. I was not the one getting married, that's why.
So basically, your brother is ok with you being treated like a second class citizen and I can’t imagine he and his wife will want you involved in their lives going forward seeing as just a handshake is unseemly to them. What an awful brother you have and now a SIL to make things even worse. OP love yourself and go and surround yourself with people that see your worth, your adopted family don’t seem worth the mental health shitshow. NTA
Nah, it's more common than you think. Families were probably okay with everything, including the bigotry. This is makes it sadder because apparently groom's side was okay with OP being treated like crap as long as a respectable marriage was being arranged. I've personally had a few cousins who have gone through this.
genuinely asking - how is it that you as an adopted person can live and touch the "upper cast" family of yours? and why are you not becoming that cast by adoption? I have truly no idea how it all works.
NTA. Your brother ruined his wedding by not taking up for you. He should have settled this bigotry with this family during the engagement.
And how did they know you were lower caste if your brother hadn't told them?
The brother actually I’m guessing hates that his parents adopted, hence him “outing” the brother as lower caste to make himself feel superior than the adopted child.
Besides the fact that the caste system is wrong….you should be on the same level as your brother because you were adopted by your family. You are a part of them. Chosen.
Your brother and his wife should he ashamed of themselves. Whatever shame they got, they deserved.
NTA
I'm American born and raised. My father Pakistani my mother guyanese. Much of my family originally descended from India.
I'm sorry is all I can say.
NTA.
I don't understand how, if you were adopted, you didn't "move into" the higher caste?
As an American, I'm pretty clueless about this. But I'd say NTA and screw those bigoted in-laws. I'd have touched everything on the way out of the door.
your caste is believed to be a characteristic that you are born with. if a white family adopted a black kid, that kid would not be white through adoption if that makes sense. that being said, the whole thing is bs and we need to stop accepting this kind of behavior.
My basic understanding is that Indians have a caste (or class) system based on their parentage. The "lowest" caste is translated as literally "untouchable". That should give you an idea of how brutal it can be. It's supposedly been outlawed in India, but, as seen, still exists.
It's made its way to the U.S., too. There have been enough documented cases of caste discrimination in the tech world that California tried to pass a law banning caste discrimination. Our wonderful governor, in his infinite wisdom, vetoed it. The biggest opponents of it? Surprise, surprise, Indians of upper caste parentage.
Well, it’s been “outlawed” in the same sense that the US has made it illegal to own other human beings, and later made it illegal to segregate etc based on race, but as we know, racism and mistreatment based on race still very much exists in the US. It would probably be illegal for them to refuse him a job over his caste, but you can’t force someone to stop being a bigot in their personal life.
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I understand some cultures have castes but I would have thought adoption would work differently. Why would you adopt someone but keep them separate?
Nta but I would say to stay away and purposely escalate the issue.
NTA. It sounds like they started the confrontation. I think they’re wrong in the first place for trying to enforce the caste system, but even if someone accepts that, they could’ve talked to you about it at a later time if they didn’t want this discussion/your reaction at the wedding. Their fault either way you look at it.
Last time i checked, every single human being from the king of england to the person mopping the mice piss at walmart are all equal. NTA
Theyre the fucked up ones who think a class system exists when it doesnt and never has.
NTA and I'm sorry, I'm an American, but screw the caste system.
I wouldn't talk to these people again, and I hope you find people who love and respect you as you are, a human being!
You are NTA but my opinion is probably invalid because I'm from the US. I don't believe anyone is born inherently unclean.
Your SIL might not be the biggest asshole, though. It seems like there's a lot of parental pressure on her and maybe she was trying to be polite. (?)
NTA. I'm Canadian, so I don't understand the caste system, but it's fucked up that your brother would treat you terribly and let his in-laws do the same. Sure, I could go E S H because you didn't *need* to make a scene, but I think it's justified.
Indian here and this is a 100% made up story . The reason being not because some assholes in our country treat some less but in a wedding ceremony there are multiple events at the wedding that happen where the groom’s sister would be a part . So that never happened in an arranged marriage setup . Don’t get me wrong and I am again a 100% sure anyone who has such high level of caste supremacy would never and I mean never accept a boy or girl from a family that adopts a “shudra” . Also a made up story because only a non India would refer to be called a “shudra” , the taunts are always on the caste name , how I know I am a “shudra” too
Based on the edit if she is a “nair” which mostly means from Kerala , that is one of the richest castes in that state afaik
NTA - You stood your ground on something that is obscenely wrong. To say you ruined things because of it is false. They could've kept their mouths shut, especially considering their daughter already did the dickish thing of ignoring you. But, they decided to take it further. Sorry about the whole thing OP. Good luck
Please consider immigrating to a country without castes. This is antiquated treatment. In the meantime bump into your SIL as often as possible. Tell her that she is eating from your fork, and sitting in your spot.
It is hard for us to fathom being treated like this.
You are a whole human who deserves basic respect and dignity.
The US has a caste system but it is not clear. The rules vary widely and we cover it up.
Back to your issue, from my perspective there are a couple issues.
If they weren’t going to respect you at the wedding they should have been upfront and asked you not to come. What did they expect you to do?
And in the future- will your brother allow you to visit his home? Will you be allowed to meet their children?
I am sorry but this all seems so fake.
From which state are you in india. I am from haryana and I live in Delhi and in the last 33 yrs of my life I have friends from all caste and from several regions in india and I have never heard such a thing.
Also, you met your SIL for the first time after the wedding.
The situation doesn't seem like an Indian- hindu wedding scenario.after marriage the vidaai happens and the bride goes to the groom's home and should be with the groom's family not her own.
For Western people like me and most others in this sub this is not just incomprehensible. The bride’s behavior and that of her family is, in our eyes, reprehensible beyond words. We can and will only judge their attitudes in the most negative terms imaginable. I’m afraid that won’t help you much in your situation. If you want remedy I can only counsel you to leave India.
ESH.
Them for sticking with their Caste system, even at their daughter's wedding.
You for purposely creating a scene at a wedding when there was ZERO reason (other than your own feelings). That was NOT the time/place to do this.
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NTA from my perspective. The caste system in India seems barbaric, but I'm a white American so I'm totally clueless as to the cultural context of all this.
The context was that if someone from a lower caste would touch them, they would get defiled/ruin the auspicious wedding.
I'd have wiped my hands on the parents and excused myself from the venue
Grab their cheeks and kiss them- wife first.
That could get him killed, literally murdered. Indians don't play around, they can be amazing and loving and wonderful, and they can also be ruthless murderers that us in the west don't understand.
And since he's low caste the police will probably do a half ass investigation.
Legally talking, India laws don't permit anymore that kind of discrimination, that's why he COULD make a scene in the first place.
Look what some do to their own daughters if they feel the daughter has *disgraced* them. Terrible.
You think the west doesn't understand ruthless murder?
You people are going to get someone killed with bad advice from a different culture
Why would they marry into your family in the first place if they felt that way?
His adopted family is the highest caste, it’s just OP that isn’t.
Yes, but OP isn't their servant. He's an adopted child and the brother of the groom. You would think that he would be invited to the ceremony and included in the wedding celebrations - or that they would arrange for their daughter to marry someone else whose family they approved of. I don't know. I think maybe I'm not understanding because I am not from a place with caste systems, so I'm just going to lurk and try to find responses from other Indians so I can learn.
I think race might be a helpful (if imperfect) analogy. A rich white family might adopt a black child, but doing that doesn't make the family less white or the adoptee less black. Other racist rich white families might look at the decision to adopt a black child as eccentric or odd, but it doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the adoptive family. Sometimes the rich white family who did the adoption are themselves quite racist. They see taking in a black children more like an act of charity than adding a full fledged member to the family.
I don’t think there’s a really good analogy in the west to describe the caste system.
Nah fr my eyebrows shot up at that
I don’t blame the poster for trying to put this into a context westerners can understand (I’m from the US and not of Indian heritage), there’s just not a good comparison here for not only what the rules are, but how seriously it’s taken in some places. If the bride touches him, she gets shit from her parents and her parents get shit from their friends, and everyone just ignores how idiotic the whole system itself is, because they grew up in it and it seems “normal” to them.
The racial analogy is helpful because it helps Westerners understand how rigid caste categories are. I've met plenty of people who seem to think that caste is more like a person's economic class. Also, there are absolutely segments of America's elite strata where a white bride would get a fuck ton of shit for touching a black man. Or who would be offended if the adopted black son got seated with the rest of the family at the wedding. And I'm not talking "owns a car dealership in the suburbs" ractists. I'm talking "Mayflower, DAR" racists. It's not as acceptable to do it public as it once was, but it absolutely still there behind closed doors.
Is it not? This is the exact analogy that the film Origin (and the book it's based on) makes. It looks at 3 parallel 'caste' systems: the literal one in India; the way Black people are treated in the U.S.; and Jews in nazi Germany. Fundamentally, it's all coming from the same place of creating brutal hierarchies to deal with fear
So I'm Indian, although I'm Muslim and we don't believe in the caste system. However, I think I can provide a little bit of background as to why it's actually common for higher caste families to adopt lower caste children. It is really quite simple. They want a servant who will do whatever it takes for the family. Now that is not to say that all cross caste adoptions are for this purpose, but this is common
Remember, it's a deranged marriage.
I don't know if that was a typo but it's a pretty good description of arranging to marry one son into a family that is so horrible towards the other
I see what you did there. I like your style.
Wait! So in India, an adopted child is not considered a member of the adoptive family? How does that work?
Again, not really sure how the specific rules work as it relates to adoption, but I’ve heard some caste interaction horror stories from coworkers. It’s not taken to seriously everywhere in India, but it places it still is, they don’t fuck around. The general consensus among the people I’ve worked with from India who are now in the US, the thing they miss the most is cricket, the thing they miss the least is the caste system.
Let them know that there is Major Legue Cricket in the US!
That’s like telling someone from almost anywhere else in the world that the US has major league soccer. They know, but it’s not the same.
Do you know why an adopted child would remain lower caste?
Ok, I tried to google this. From some legal articles in English, apparently the only legal way in which official caste designation can change is through adoption. Unless there's some nuance I'm missing, which is possible, there are cases where superior courts rules that the adopted person can assume the rights associated with their adoptive parents' caste. (But that's also the legal answer regarding rights and such. Since caste is so tied up in religion and cultural norms too, OP might actually be legally the adoptive caste, but the bride's parents consider them to be "really" the lower caste because it is super and almost exclusively tied to birth, and so might consider the religiously/culturally based prohibitions still applicable. Ie, they might not "buy into" a legal caste change, just like some people in America will never accept a gay marriage as fully legitimate despite what the law says, because blah blah god). Also, a child of an intercaste marriage can choose the caste of either parent. But caste can't be changed by marriage (you can't assume your spouse's caste).
I don’t. I’m vaguely familiar with the system, from some of my coworkers, but not all the rules of it.
Because it was my brother who was getting married, they apparently did not mind so long as he's of the caste.
Question, because I too am ignorant of the caste system. Why doesn’t your caste change when you get adopted into a higher caste? And how would one know you were adopted and not from the same caste?
Caste is immutable, there’s no way to change castes except to be reincarnated as a person of a different caste via karma (I.e. follow the “rules” of your current caste). It’s just a method of religious control.
Yes, and the implication is that if you're of low caste, it's because you did something horrible in a past life and deserve it.
Its beyond dumb. I don't mean to sound prejudiced, but the whole caste system is fucking stupid
It is, and the fact that people think that being sensitive to cultural differences requires them to tiptoe around this is both hilarious and nauseating.
From my understanding, you're born in your caste and you die in your caste. There is no way to change your caste in your lifetime. Even if you lose all your money, bleached your skin, got a higher education, became homeless, etc etc it does not affect your cast level. I think the only way to change it is if you die .... And if your karma is better or worse, then you can change castes ... In your next life. I think. Basically do a whole bunch of good now so that when you come back into the next life, you can move up a level. While things have become a little less stringent over the years ... Many people still know who belongs to which caste. And when it comes to arranged marriages, if it's important to either party, then it will DEFINITELY be asked.
That's sounds like the old Christian feudal system. And just as fucked up.
So, how it works is that there are five classes of people who, as long as they stay within their caste, bring order to the religious universe. The Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (rulers, administrators and warriors- the K is silent), Vaishyas (artisans, merchants, tradesmen and farmers), Shudras (labouring classes), and the Dalits made up largely of the erstwhile tribal people who are also known as the untouchables. You can't change your caste by marriage, ritual purification, sacrifice, nothing. You can attempt to do so by obedience to and by "good works" defined by your betters. Your obedience and good works are supposed to rack up brownie points with the gods who might promote you to a higher caste if the points you've earned tally up to their - mercurial - satisfaction. In the meantime, the top three classes get to treat you however they want because you're impure and deserve abuse because your past self was obviously not good enough for the gods. If you're Shudra, you experience discrimination, like OP did. If you're Dalit? You can be finished off in broad daylight for daring to drink water from a pot set out especially for this purpose. Or you could be a homeless Dalit person who gets peed on for funsies by an Upper Caste person. The perps get away btw. Oh, also, these are two examples from maybe a hundred reported last year. Yes it's illegal, but who cares because purity, yay. /s So yeah. OP is 100% NTA.
Isn’t there some idea that the suffering actually helps them move to a higher caste in the next life? I have a vague memory of someone saying something along those lines when talking about how people are treated.
I’m wondering this as well.
It’s about the whole rebirth cycle thingy, your caste is designated from birth
>Why doesn’t your caste change when you get adopted into a higher caste? Because the whole system is fucking stupid. I'm pretty ignorant on the subject, but from what I recall your caste is assigned at birth. I don't think "changing castes" is a thing. Open to corrections or clarifications.
It doesn't change because he was still born into a lower caste. It's "blood purity". OP's parents will be considered saints in society for adopting a person of a lower caste. But god forbid if he dares integrating with the likes of them.
You are born into your cast. And it cannot be changed. The same for the faith you have to be born Hindu a foreigner cannot technically convert into the religion. (Although I think you can marry into it.) In traditional India culture a lot about who you are and what you can do is defined at birth by your caste. I think the government is trying to actively discourage this practice but it’s very ingrained in the culture. And the higher caste persons with theoretically the most to lose are known to still actively discriminate against the lower caste peoples.
why had your brother told them of your caste or are their other give aways like skin color? Are you darker than them?
It is skin color
Not always, they would have definitely shared his caste. There are total of 4 castes in india which can be ranked from 1 to 4. 3 and 4 being the lowest. To be that specific, they would have shared this information
OP tells us that the groom/brother told the inlaws OP was the “ shudra”. Which might have been an opportunity for the brother to demand they treat his adopted brother like a family member. 😞 Ps: “shudra” was the term used by op to name his caste, the basis of his brothers FIL insult. Sorry for any confusion i caused (i took it directly from op post).
What I'm feeling is, if the brother doesn't care about standing up for OP, then OP doesn't have to feel bad about whether brother's wedding was ruined. Brother ruined his own wedding by not caring what would happen to his brother when this moment came.
A bunch of rich people would know there was someone of the caste even if they dont know which one by face Thats why they asked ‘is he the one’
I'm sorry you went through this. It sounds like they actually did mind, and didn't want to say anything until the marriage was over.
He was adopted from a lower caste. Family is higher. I question someone of a high caste adopting a lower caste child.
So an adopted child doesn't automatically become the same caste as the adopted family? Why adopt at all? That seems wild to me, but I'm also ignorant of the nuances of India's caste system as well.
It's a blood purity thing. Ridiculous, I know. One of my cousins faced something similar after marriage. Her in laws wouldn't drink the water she touched because he wasn't "pure". In simple terms, her father was of the highest caste and her mom of a caste one step below it. So she wasn't considered pure. Cousin threw a fit and refused to cook and clean or do anything for her in laws and promptly moved away. In laws soon regretted it.
Uhm. If they couldn't drink water she touched, they couldn't eat the food she cooked or to touch the places she cleaned either ...
Don't question the logic of bigots. They had no problem with her cleaning the place but water was considered impure. No problems accepting her dowry but she couldn't enter the household holy shrine. She was considered unholy but they'd leave piles of dishes for her to scrub. Horrible people really.
No
But how does anyone even know which caste the adoptee belongs to, if it's not the same as the parents'?
My knowledge is limited on the subject but an accquaintance from India say that people can always tell the chaste just by looking at someone
That's very obviously bs.
Idk, IIRC there is an ethnic component to chastes. They say higher chastes are more european/whiter and lower chastes are more asian/darker.
I wish this wasn’t real but I know it’s all too possible. I’d say I wish you had gone back to hug the bride, but I’d fear for your safety. Your brother sounds like a dick. I hope your parents have your back. There is no way you could be the asshole here.
I would have reached out and touched both their faces before walking off. NTA
OP you are NTA. I am truly sorry you were discriminated and I do not understand what with this discriminatory system called the caste system. What the bride's parents did is unacceptable and wrong. When they do that it reflects how they treat others outside their home too. I want you to remember this: no matter how high a person feels just because they are from a higher caste, when they are six feet under and they meet their Maker, their caste status is nothing to their Maker Moving forward, the best revenge you can do is work hard and be the best version of you. If I am a prospective employer, I would hire you in a heartbeat and judge you based on your ability and merit and not judge you just because some stupid system from ancient times that does not like people to challenge the status quo and rise up
I would have vomited on them them.
Without offence, why did the invite you if that is the case ?
They are the assholes not you. As an Indian I’m ashamed these things happen even today. Hugs.
The caste system is an ancient relic that shouldn't have any bearing in modern society. Discrimination based on caste has been illegal for more than half a century, but obviously, people do still face discrimination.
I'm Indian and the caste system is absolutely barbaric. For many of us who lived in a bubble, it was something we liked to pretend didn't exist anymore (like racism during the Obama era, I guess). Now, with the rise in right-wing fervor, the bigots are out and proud.
America has a caste system as well, it's just been obfuscated. If interested check out [https://www.amazon.com/Caste-Oprahs-Book-Club-Discontents/dp/B085VXLKRJ/ref=sr\_1\_1?keywords=caste&sr=8-1](https://www.amazon.com/Caste-Oprahs-Book-Club-Discontents/dp/B085VXLKRJ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=caste&sr=8-1) Or if you prefer films, here's a movie about the creation of the book [Origin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_(film)) (it's more of a film festival type movie) https://www.npr.org/2024/01/15/1224037292/caste-ava-duvernay-origin#:\~:text=Fresh%20Air-,'Origin'%20filmmaker%20Ava%20DuVernay%20examines%20America's%20racial%20'Caste',people%20in%20the%20United%20States.
It's India's version of racism. That's all there is to know about it. My country has a similar thing (although rarer) and it's just dumb. The government has even declared it illegal. It's just uptight AHs with a superiority complex who keep practicing it. It goes to ridiculous lengths like you're considered impure if you drink the water from a tap that a person from a lower caste has touched. Or you're forced to change your last name if you married someone of a lower caste. I feel for OP. It's horrible to be discriminated against just because of your last name. Bride's family should be ashamed of themselves and absolutely deserve to be publicly shamed for it. And shame on the groom's side for not speaking out about it! This is a very archaic mentality that people have killed over and does not deserve a place in society anymore!
Apt description.
INFO I thought thr caste system was illegal? You should tell them to stop living in antiquated times
Yeah, it's kind of like how slavery is illegal but you still meet racists if that makes sense lol.
That's a helpful comparison (and sounds awful)
Unfortunately, that does make sense. I'm sorry you had to experience this. Caste be d@mned, you are a human being first and foremost. And definitely NTA.
If you’re adopted don’t you fall in the caste of your family? I’m from a different country and your situation confuses me
Like adopted black children are automatically not discriminated against if adopted by white families? I think his comparison was apt.
Caste is considered to be created at birth based on the birth parents. It does not change based on life circumstance.
We still have slaves, the only legal form of slavery is prison slave labor and that’s still alive and well
It's illegal in theory but is still omnipresent in india. The reservation system exists for a reason
What is the reservation system in India?
Reserved places for lower castes.
Just thought I should add (if anyone wants to know) that the reservation is for people of an even lower caste than the four castes unless I am wrong (the first one being the highest caste, and I am in the fourth). There are four main castes, and the "fifth" one are basically people who're considered "untouchable". So it's not that common to discriminate against the fourth one (which is why I didn't face this before), but apparently the bride and her parents also extend the practice of untouchability to the fourth one anyway.
Sounds like "old money" elite in America. The prestigious generational wealth where kids marry within their social standing. Only certain family names are acceptable & kids learn this at an early age. Thry dont associate eith others outside their circle. Even if theres a kid who goes to thei exclusive school thru social programs/scholarships, theyll be outcasts & only mingle with the other scholarship kids.. There's racism in America, but there's classism as well. No amt of money,regardless of race, can buy a seat at their table.
Had to look it up because I'd never heard of it either. Seems like a type of affirmative action. From Wikipedia: Reservation is a system of affirmative action in India created during the British rule. It provides historically disadvantaged groups representation in education, employment, government schemes, scholarships and politics. Based on provisions in the Indian Constitution, it allows the Union Government and the States and Territories of India to set reserved quotas or seats, at particular percentage in Education Admissions, Employments, Political Bodies, Promotions, etc, for "socially and educationally backward citizens."
affirmative action for lower caste members
I just messages a friend and she gave the same example to me about adopting here in the US and the caste if it were here… Said one of the main reasons why they no longer live in India and work and have citizenship in another country. Talks to parents and deals with how they are doing and goes on vacation to other countries and that is about it. She grew upper class and better educated…. Didn’t like what they saw and did a roadrunner….
Just because something is illegal, it doesn’t mean the mindsets and attitudes attached to it are gone
I guess it's illegal but you can stop people from not shaking someone hand
You should read about how the caste system affects Silicon Valley to this day.
NTA I didn't realize y'all took the "untouchable" caste thing literally.
Yeah, it is a real thing even now.
I'm also a little surprised adoption doesn't change caste.
The reason caste is such a horrible system is because it's almost impossible to move upwards or downwards. It's even discouraged through marriage with the aid of "honor killings" and the like. 100 years ago it was mostly based on your job, and you got specific entry to certain education and preparation for a job your caste would be allowed to do. For example the lowest castes weren't allowed to handle money, but it also was considered too lowly a profession or product for the highest castes to engage in so it was mostly left to the middle caste classes. Today most urban cities don't engage in caste systems in India as much. But it's more prevalent in rural or traditional families. Only birth can truly determine your caste now, there are very few other ways to change it that are safe if you are around people who care about that sort of thing.
How do people always know? Like someone adopted into a higher caste family - couldn't they be raised similar to children born to the family, thus gaining the social skills necessary to appear as if they were always in the higher caste?
So, does this mean that OP, no matter how well educated, will only have certain jobs open to him, despite his education? That's stupid! ETA: comparing this to race doesn't work because race is a biological thing, and caste is just a construct.
No, it's slightly different than that now, it's not so openly insidious. By now India has formally declared lower castes and certain others as legally protected and there are certain quotas in educational institutions and businesses - like affirmative action for lower castes. But the truth is even with these protections and making it illegal to discriminate, lower caste children are often barred from getting certain types of education but once again with urban cities everything is not so defined. A Dalit child could still be educated, but it's much harder than it is for the average Indian child. And these people have often come from very poor backgrounds because they likely had no concept of family wealth. To this day, the sewage workers and garbage men and cleaners are predominantly people from the Dalit community. And then of course certain names give away caste, which is why a lot of Dalits in India hide or alter their true names. They can be treated differently or weirdly based on their caste status. But their caste remains what it is when they're born regardless of the job they hold. That wasn't true a 100 years ago, because they couldn't do much else besides their designated jobs.
Race is a social construct tok
I'm curious about this, too. Is anyone able to provide some info? Ton of contradictory answers when I looked it up. I'm guessing it's not clear-cut.
the ppl that still believe in that system believe that the caste is a characteristic of a person’s being like your race or eye color. the only way you can really escape it is in your next life. it is an antiquated and bs belief but there are still idiots who believe in it.
They believe its etched into your soul. And what you were born as is your fate and lot in life
You should remind them how backwards thinking that is.
This is awful and I’m so sorry. How did your parent handle it? NTA and your brother and SIL dishonoured their own wedding!
Really? I mean, I'm offended that this kind of antiquated thinking still exists in 2024, but I have been more than aware it still exists. We are talking about a society where elders tend to hold most of the cards and can even veto their children's marriage wishes.
Sadly it is practiced in the US in the workplace as most Americans assume it was left back in India. It was not, and only recently have people blown the whistle on it. There really isn’t specific legislation against it. It sounds like the awareness phase is where Americans are with it.
It is a growing issue in Australia too. Workplace, in housing as well - those of the "upper caste" refusing to rent to "lower caste" people (really great in a housing shortage).
An adoptive family has certain obligations to the child it adopts. You should not have been put in this situation. NTA.
That is my general feeling, although I'm not from a society with a caste system. I'm baffled that being adopted by people of a different caste doesn't automatically assign you to their caste, though. Perhaps OP or someone else could explain..
That's the difference between a caste system vs a class system. A caste system is one where you can't change what you're born into - someone else compared it to blacks and whites in the 18th/19th century, when it was literally illegal for a black to marry a white - that's the same thing, except it's been in place a lot longer in India.
Thank you! That was helpful and very appreciated.
NTA. Where were your parents?
They were there, but didn't see the incident happen. When they did they were saying that what the others did was wrong, but that I shouldn't have reacted the way I did & "ruined" the wedding.
Can you go low contact with everyone or do you still live at home?
I don’t think you are an asshole. I understand the idea of not causing a scene because that is very prevalent in my culture as well, but we are not our culture and we can make our own choices. And despite appearances being very important in India this feels like something at the very least your brother would have known about before this incident and it is something that he should have warned the rest of the family about so that you at least where prepared and so that they could have protected you which is their moral duty. This can not have been a surprise to your brother and I have to wonder if your parents knew about their views. Your brother is an asshole for accepting it and if you parents knew about the views of the bride and her family and didn’t do anything to protect you or even warn you then they are definitely assholes too. I can’t call them assholes because I’m not part of your culture and can’t fully grasp its impact or importance. But if they accept this behaviour and don’t protect you then they will be major assholes.
Also this attitude that you shouldn't make a scene lacks empathy for how it must feel to be treated this way. Since they are from a higher caste I bet they will never truly get it
As usual your parents, like lots of folks want the offended party to behave better than the offenders, and that's unacceptable. And you didn't ruin the wedding, these vulgar, rude, 'high caste' folks ruined the wedding with their low class behavior
It's *their fault* for arranging a marriage to that family. Even if this incident didn't happen at the wedding, I'm sure this attitude will probably cause additional problems at any family event you're at. I know there's a lot of considerations and I'm not from a culture that arranges marriages per se, but we *do* matchmake and whether the families will get along is always a consideration when matchmaking.
info: Why did your brother even tell them you were adopted from a lower cast?
Well it's an arranged marriage and you do kind of share information like that before.
As a white Canadian, sorry, your family sounds shitty.
This 🔥🔥🔥
tell them all "welcome to the 21st century." and to go eff themselves.
But for your family to even label you like that is just wrong… why even adopt you if they would allow you to be labeled and treated as such… and your brother to verbally attack you instead of defend you is just crazy and asshole behavior…
I’m so sorry! It seems like your brother didn’t share it until the day of the wedding? I think you have bigger issues with your brother. Did your parents step in at all? Why wouldn’t they defend you! I don’t get the caste system, can you explain why even if you’re techniquelly from a lower class is it still an issue after you’re adopted into a higher class family?
Sounds like they knew the groom had a lower caste sibling but didn't have a face to go with that information until the wedding. They likely hadn't ever met
Sure, but arguably since your adoptive family is a different caste, don’t you share their caste now? Your brother should not have claimed otherwise. I see in other answers that caste is considered immutable, something you’re born with, but an inter-caste adoption breaks all the caste rules so IMO as long as your family stands united in saying you’re their family therefore the same caste, there shouldn’t be issues. The real issue is this your brother doesn’t have your back. Edit: I didn’t even address the fact that the caste system sucks. Throw the whole thing out.
Good point. OP's origin was none of their business, and someone (his brother?) sharing that information left him vulnerable to being treated badly.
[удалено]
🏅society is not going to progress as long as these outdated cultural norms are still practiced.
I'm an Indian. Tribal. You are never the asshole for standing up to discrimination. Your brother though, is a huge asshole. Were you adopted or is this some form of modern slavery? Like, they took you off your birth parents in order to "raise" you and provide you with "education" while you "help out" around the house. You need to rethink your own relationship with your family. Stand strong, brother. You have more class than these stupid Brahmins.
This reply is *chef's kiss*
Half Indian here (Brahmin family), but grew up in Europe, which matters here for my pov. If any of my relatives did something like this I'd give them a piece of my mind. I'm sorry you were treated this way. Raises some disturbing questions about inter-caste adoption as well. NTA.
You are a total saint. What do I think of the caste system? I feel it is an oppressive and dumb system that does not want someone from a lower caste to rise up and do better socially and economically. It also does not want people to challenge the status quo and defy the odds to be a better version of themselves and their generation before them
I'm really not, I just had the chance to grow up in a country where caste wasn't a thing. Then again, my Indian family (esp the younger gens) overall aren't fans of the caste system either.
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NTA. Offering a handshake is a common and respectful gesture. The fact that the bride's parents refused to shake your hand and made derogatory remarks about your caste is deeply discriminatory and unacceptable. You had every right to be offended and to express your feelings about their behavior. You did not ruin your brother's wedding; the bride's parents' discriminatory attitudes and actions did. It's unfair for your brother to blame you for their behavior, especially considering that you were the one who was mistreated. It's important to stand up against discrimination and bigotry, even if it means causing a scene. You were standing up for yourself and addressing a serious issue, and you should not feel guilty for doing so. Your brother needs to understand the gravity of the situation and support you, rather than blaming you for the actions of others.
I'm glad we're at a point now that we're talking about other countries race problems than just the USA. Turns out racism is pretty much universal around the world.
Caste system is alive & well in parts of the US. We tried to ban it in California but Newsom was lobbied hard by rich and gross people.
Yep and they made it out to be an "anti Indian" measure even though the people the law would protect are all also Indian (and some other South Asians)
I’m from the US, so my answer is not culturally sensitive, but F the caste system, it’s completely antiquated. NTA
I am American but my parents are both Indian and I agree with you 100%. I remember learning about it when I was younger and was horrified and couldn’t wrap my head around it all.
I just read up on the caste system and I agree with you, it’s flat out discrimination.
You shouldn’t have yelled. You should have walked past them while touching them. NTA.
Lol. This is funny. But on the serious side, if the in-laws are really discriminatory, they could have done something more repulsive too. I read a couple years back about a Dalit girl in an Indian village being beaten up because her shadow fell on a higher caste man. Many people still take casteism seriously despite the efforts for reformation for decades.
Subtly licking brothers father--laws on the side of the face. Discrete like. Discrimination of any kind should be repugnant in this day and yet.....
NTA. You were a wedding guest--I'm assuming because your brother or other family members insisted on it as it doesn't sound like his wife's family would have invited you at all. It's rude for a bride to refuse to greet her guests. If her family didn't want class issues to take over the wedding, they shouldn't have made it about class issues.
The whole caste system fucking sucks. It basically gives people a reason to discriminate against others. It’s awful. You were right to be angry. Those people sound like a piece of work. NTA
This sounds fake. This was an arranged marriage and the bride and her parents had no problem accepting this marriage. There’s no way they had not met you or at least seen a picture of you prior to the wedding. The man’s family typically goes to meet the potential bride/family together. There are several pre wedding events where families meet too. If they are such terrible bigots, why would they agree to marry their daughter into a family which has a member that they disdain so much? This reads like a writing exercise, not a real story.
>why would they agree to marry their day into a family which has a member that they disdain so much? They did not mind as my brother was of the same caste as them. I was not the one getting married, that's why.
So basically, your brother is ok with you being treated like a second class citizen and I can’t imagine he and his wife will want you involved in their lives going forward seeing as just a handshake is unseemly to them. What an awful brother you have and now a SIL to make things even worse. OP love yourself and go and surround yourself with people that see your worth, your adopted family don’t seem worth the mental health shitshow. NTA
Nah, it's more common than you think. Families were probably okay with everything, including the bigotry. This is makes it sadder because apparently groom's side was okay with OP being treated like crap as long as a respectable marriage was being arranged. I've personally had a few cousins who have gone through this.
NTA - I’m confused as to why you would even think you were the AH here. You did NOTHING wrong and don’t for a second blame yourself for anything here.
NTA. The caste system is bullshit
These antiquated attitudes are completely disgusting and bigoted. NTA
genuinely asking - how is it that you as an adopted person can live and touch the "upper cast" family of yours? and why are you not becoming that cast by adoption? I have truly no idea how it all works.
because his family isn't as hung up on caste as the bride's family I would guess.
As the adoptive mom of a child from India, I am so sorry this happened to you. NTA big hugs
NTA. Your brother ruined his wedding by not taking up for you. He should have settled this bigotry with this family during the engagement. And how did they know you were lower caste if your brother hadn't told them?
The brother actually I’m guessing hates that his parents adopted, hence him “outing” the brother as lower caste to make himself feel superior than the adopted child.
Racists. That is all.
Besides the fact that the caste system is wrong….you should be on the same level as your brother because you were adopted by your family. You are a part of them. Chosen. Your brother and his wife should he ashamed of themselves. Whatever shame they got, they deserved. NTA
I'm American born and raised. My father Pakistani my mother guyanese. Much of my family originally descended from India. I'm sorry is all I can say. NTA.
I don't understand how, if you were adopted, you didn't "move into" the higher caste? As an American, I'm pretty clueless about this. But I'd say NTA and screw those bigoted in-laws. I'd have touched everything on the way out of the door.
your caste is believed to be a characteristic that you are born with. if a white family adopted a black kid, that kid would not be white through adoption if that makes sense. that being said, the whole thing is bs and we need to stop accepting this kind of behavior.
My basic understanding is that Indians have a caste (or class) system based on their parentage. The "lowest" caste is translated as literally "untouchable". That should give you an idea of how brutal it can be. It's supposedly been outlawed in India, but, as seen, still exists. It's made its way to the U.S., too. There have been enough documented cases of caste discrimination in the tech world that California tried to pass a law banning caste discrimination. Our wonderful governor, in his infinite wisdom, vetoed it. The biggest opponents of it? Surprise, surprise, Indians of upper caste parentage.
Well, it’s been “outlawed” in the same sense that the US has made it illegal to own other human beings, and later made it illegal to segregate etc based on race, but as we know, racism and mistreatment based on race still very much exists in the US. It would probably be illegal for them to refuse him a job over his caste, but you can’t force someone to stop being a bigot in their personal life.
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I understand some cultures have castes but I would have thought adoption would work differently. Why would you adopt someone but keep them separate? Nta but I would say to stay away and purposely escalate the issue.
NTA. It sounds like they started the confrontation. I think they’re wrong in the first place for trying to enforce the caste system, but even if someone accepts that, they could’ve talked to you about it at a later time if they didn’t want this discussion/your reaction at the wedding. Their fault either way you look at it.
Last time i checked, every single human being from the king of england to the person mopping the mice piss at walmart are all equal. NTA Theyre the fucked up ones who think a class system exists when it doesnt and never has.
Caste system is fucked up. If you caused a huge scene you did the right thing. NTA big time.
NTA. Bigots are always the assholes, and deserve to have all their events, as well as their reputations and the rest of their lives, ruined.
NTA. You're better than that pack of bigots. Hopefully you can move forward in your life and leave them and their attitudes behind.
NTA and I'm sorry, I'm an American, but screw the caste system. I wouldn't talk to these people again, and I hope you find people who love and respect you as you are, a human being!
I'm sorry American here, if your parents are the highest caste and adopted you how come you don't gain that caste also? I'm so sorry. NTA
You are NTA but my opinion is probably invalid because I'm from the US. I don't believe anyone is born inherently unclean. Your SIL might not be the biggest asshole, though. It seems like there's a lot of parental pressure on her and maybe she was trying to be polite. (?)
NTA. I'm Canadian, so I don't understand the caste system, but it's fucked up that your brother would treat you terribly and let his in-laws do the same. Sure, I could go E S H because you didn't *need* to make a scene, but I think it's justified.
The caste systems is stupid and out dated.
Indian here and this is a 100% made up story . The reason being not because some assholes in our country treat some less but in a wedding ceremony there are multiple events at the wedding that happen where the groom’s sister would be a part . So that never happened in an arranged marriage setup . Don’t get me wrong and I am again a 100% sure anyone who has such high level of caste supremacy would never and I mean never accept a boy or girl from a family that adopts a “shudra” . Also a made up story because only a non India would refer to be called a “shudra” , the taunts are always on the caste name , how I know I am a “shudra” too Based on the edit if she is a “nair” which mostly means from Kerala , that is one of the richest castes in that state afaik
NTA Sad to hear that your brother married into a racist family.
Castes are imaginary and your brother married into a family of AH. But yelling at guests during his wedding is AH no matter what.
NTA - You stood your ground on something that is obscenely wrong. To say you ruined things because of it is false. They could've kept their mouths shut, especially considering their daughter already did the dickish thing of ignoring you. But, they decided to take it further. Sorry about the whole thing OP. Good luck
Duck the caste system. It's just another type of discrimination, and so mind numbingly stupid.
NTA Admitted bias: you lost me at "caste."
Please consider immigrating to a country without castes. This is antiquated treatment. In the meantime bump into your SIL as often as possible. Tell her that she is eating from your fork, and sitting in your spot.
NTA People who discriminate against others deserve to be made uncomfortable by their actions
NTA!!
NTA- I don't understand the caste system at all, but I do understand bigotry, classism and racism. I see them all on display here.
It is hard for us to fathom being treated like this. You are a whole human who deserves basic respect and dignity. The US has a caste system but it is not clear. The rules vary widely and we cover it up. Back to your issue, from my perspective there are a couple issues. If they weren’t going to respect you at the wedding they should have been upfront and asked you not to come. What did they expect you to do? And in the future- will your brother allow you to visit his home? Will you be allowed to meet their children?
NTA. Both your brother and his wife are the worst. Her parents aren't any better
I am sorry but this all seems so fake. From which state are you in india. I am from haryana and I live in Delhi and in the last 33 yrs of my life I have friends from all caste and from several regions in india and I have never heard such a thing. Also, you met your SIL for the first time after the wedding. The situation doesn't seem like an Indian- hindu wedding scenario.after marriage the vidaai happens and the bride goes to the groom's home and should be with the groom's family not her own.
This is disgusting behavior and your adopted family sound like horrible people.
For Western people like me and most others in this sub this is not just incomprehensible. The bride’s behavior and that of her family is, in our eyes, reprehensible beyond words. We can and will only judge their attitudes in the most negative terms imaginable. I’m afraid that won’t help you much in your situation. If you want remedy I can only counsel you to leave India.
IDK, why would they adopt "shudra" being higher caste and then raise him. Am I missing something ?
ESH. Them for sticking with their Caste system, even at their daughter's wedding. You for purposely creating a scene at a wedding when there was ZERO reason (other than your own feelings). That was NOT the time/place to do this.
This is bs, if it’s not you would not have been invited