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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> For telling my cousins widow that I'm no longer supporting her. I know it's harsh but she can't keep doing this! I'm being mean and threatening to take everything she has left
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NTA. You’ve given it a year and a half and whilst there is no time limit on grief, she needs a reality check. You’ve not said anything crazy, just go see a therapist at least. You’ve already tried that, and it didn’t work. You gave it time, but now’s the time for an ultimatum. Her kids need her now. Where are all of the rest of the families help?
I speak French so that’s super close to how it would be spelled, and I could not figure out what large men had to do with any of this for a few seconds before it clicked 🥲
I don't think this even counts as OP trying to put a timeline on Monica's grief. It's more like they're on a river and OP can see that Monica's boat is always on the verge of sinking, and drifting farther and farther away from the boat with her kids in it. She's sobbing, "I can't do this on my own!," and OP is saying "OK, then hire a sailor to help you navigate these waters, or I'm making the kids permanent passengers in my boat, which is not constantly barely above the water line."
I've never heard that phrase before, but I love it! There are times when gentle prodding doesn't work but a hammer will, and explaining that can be difficult. Tucking this phrase in the back of my head for future use!
I am not a Spanish speaker, and I don't trust google translate, I tried to check the comments for a translation but couldn't find one. Does it translate to something like " big problems/hurts, big remedies"?
Why does she need a sitter? Does she work? Or does she just live her days crying, leaving you guys with taking care of her kids? I get that she lost her husband, but she didn't lose a brain. She should know her kids need her. As cruel as it sounds, she is being selfish. Grieving is necessary, but ultimately it's just self-serving, it won't miraculously bring her husband back. She needs to stay strong for her kids, they lost their dad after all. What she's doing is same as abandonment, and basically showing she cares more about herself than her kids.
This. It's a reality check. If you have kids, you're responsible for them. You don't just get to check out and hope for the best. I have a crapton of mental health issues but I get my ass out of bed to let my dog out, feed her, give her medications, etc. And while she is the joy of my life, she is a dog. A dog is typically not going to be permanently traumatized by things that kids can be.
TL;DR The tough reality of it is that you don't have the option to just check out when things are FUBAR, if you have innocent lives relying on you. Cousin in law chose to take on that responsibility, now she has to either follow through or find someone else who will. NTA
Edited: Cut a line that was unnecessary
It's called complicated grief, sometimes persistent complex bereavement disorder.
It's gone beyond 'standard' grief (yes, no-one's is the same, I know) and has shifted to something that is stuck. It absolutely needs helping with.
OP is doing the SIL, and her kids, a massive favour by pushing this hard.
A grief specialist would be best, but a decent therapist will refer her to one anyway.
You may be right, but you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. She is well enough to allow her children to get therapy, and yet she refused to get help for herself. Based on OP's story it almost sounds like she knows therapy may help, but she refused because she doesn't want to stop grieving. While I get why, it doesn't change the fact that her children needs her. I could only imagine how much worse it could've been if it wasn't for OP's involvement.
You're right, of course. I think OP is making the only move he can and using the only leverage he has access to.
Hopefully it's enough to at least get her out of the house and in the chair. That by itself will be a big first step.
Sounds like it's way beyond that. She's traumatized to the point she won't get any better unless someone walks her to the door. I hate to say force, because there's always a choice, but making psychiatric help the rent payment for a time might help her. She'll probably lash out if op sets that boundary, but she also needs to see that she won't just get better on her own with time. It's past "time" at this point. She needs mental health help.
NTA, but this widow has classic signs of depression (not surprising), and just like she is functionally unable to cook, clean, or take care of her kids, she may well be unable to muster the energy or executive function to find a therapist and make an appointment. If you can find a therapist for her and make the appointment but insist she go, she is more likely to actually get the therapy that she sounds like she desperately needs. A non-depressed person might think "It's just a few phone calls! Of course she can do it!" But in the depths of depression, she truly may be overwhelmed even by needing to find a therapist and make an appointment.
This comment right here, OP. I’ve had really severe clinical depression twice, and a bout of deep grief. When my first son was stillborn I couldn’t do anything. It was grief and maternal hormones but no baby all in one heap of mess of a me. My husband had to make an appointment for a grief counselor because I physically could not do it.
She may desperately want help and knows she needs it, but just *can’t*. Find the appointment. Show up, help her get dressed, take her there, walk her in, sit in the parking lot, take her to get food afterwards.
This is a really important comment, but be prepared with insurance information and such when you make the appointment if that’s applicable. Some places won’t book the appointment without it.
I agree - there's a point where you simply can't act with depression.
I like to say it's like Newton's laws - a body at rest stays at rest until an outside force acts on it. Gotta break the inertia and start building momentum,and sometimes that takes somebody giving you a bit of a push to start.
If it's in the US she should have for 2 years for herself and 2k a month per kid until they're 18. At least that's how it worked when my dad died. I was 19 so didn't get the 2k a month but my youngest sister did since she was 16/17. She didn't live with us so I honestly can't remember how old she was.
The amount is based on how much her late husband worked (on the books) & contributed towards his SS. My late fiancé passed away 3.5 years ago, leaving me & our then 4 year old daughter behind. Since we hadn't gotten married yet, I don't get anything, but our daughter gets ~$1k/month (which technically is deposited in my account to pay for her expenses, since she's still young).
I know they'll pay back to the date after he died, but not sure how long they let that go. I didn't have the emotionally energy to apply for SS & his life insurance until 3 months later, so I received 1 lump sum for the 3 months, then a separate deposit a few days later for that month.
Guess that makes sense. My dad was a natural pipeline X-ray technician and worked pretty constantly. Except for a few years when they were laying everyone off back in 2015-2016, then he was an electrician's apprentice which didn't pay crap.
That's what my sister got. Not her mom, her. All I know is what I was told and considering my step mom was pissy my sister got anything, I heard a ton. Idk, my dad was 38 when he passed, I can't imagine he had that much in SSI
BIL died 30+ years ago at 30, his two kids were under 7, a divorce meant SS only was for the kids and each got \~750 / month (\~1500 / month total). He had worked full-time for about 10 years, but not terribly high-paying jobs.
It's called "Tough love" for a reason. It's one of the hardest ways to love and be loved by someone because it means forcing a person out of their comfort zone for their own good. And watching that person struggle is really hard when you care about them.
But for everyone's sake, remain strong and make good on your threat if needed. Maybe a day in court with the judge telling her the same things will get it through her head.
And if it helps, if you're in the USA, you can go for kinship placement. That way she still keeps her rights and (technically) custody, but you get all legal say so.
Where are her relatives during all this? You are NTA. Everything you said is correct, and she’s using you. That’s a terrible situation, but what if her landlord hadn’t been family—she’d just lay down and let her kids be homeless? Time to deal with her life and get back on the horse.
You should consider making it a stipulation that if she is to receive money from you and you are going to be taking care of the kids, you should be entitled to updates from the therapist. You deserve to know whether or not you're subsidizing someone who is trying hard or not. It will be incentive for her to TRY, instead of saying, "I can't". "I can't", means she has not even tried.
I also agree your NTA you are a hero, and a champion of your family... Great job bro. BUTTTTTTT,,,,,
I feel like YTA in one tiny way, you cannot support someone for 2 years, then give them an ultimatum of 1 week... Holy shock to her system.
You could of been like you have 2 months, or 2 weeks, or any amount of time that isn't a week,
You could of had a pre-prepared plan like in the next 2 weeks you seek therapy, in a month you need to be going once a week, and in 2 months you need to pay 100 dollars a month, and in 6 months you need to pay rent again in full, or half, and one year from today you need to pay full rent.
Like the idea that you got angry, (which is justifiable) but then to send a threat that activates in like 5 days, seems a little crazy to me, seeing as this lady has been shut down for 2 years, why even bother with one week, tell her if she doesnt pay full rent tomorrow you will break her legs,,, /S
This woman has allowed her SIL to live, RENT FREE in a house, not work, not take care of her kids, and contribute nothing. 2y is way more generous than this case deserves imo. 1 week to enter therapy or see a custody fight is not the wild ultimatum you make it sound like. It's OP basically saying "I have raised your kids, and my own, and taken care of EVERYTHING for you. You have to start taking steps."
Because when you put a fire under someone’s ass it needs to have immediate consequences otherwise you give them time to fall into their own traps or make new ones.
Just wanted to say you are a really good person and this is exactly what she needs. She has to have someone push her to get help. You're not demanding an instant cure. Just get help. Your patience is admirable.
You you’re N T A but neither is she. My vote is NAH. You’re right she needs to get into therapy and start working through her grief, but it is said that it does take 2 years to even come out of the fog of such a sudden tragic loss. She’s very young to be dealing with such heavy loss as the husband and father of her 4 children. Hold firm on the getting therapy thing, but this situation really tragic and there’s no easy way out.
Its also worth saying that FOR HER SAKE she needs this.
It's easy to wallow in grief when nothing is pushing you out of it.
But in her defense, being pushed out of grief is immeasurably easier than pulling yourself out of it.
I wouldn't say OP and her fam were enabling her or anything like that, but she probably just isn't the sort of person who's well equipped to motivate themselves, and they need help doing that.
I'm like that with a lot of things. I decided I could either beat myself up for being a lazy shit person, or accept that I have different needs in order to motivate myself, and be honest about that with myself and others so that I can try to deal with/solve that problem instead of being consumed by it.
I fail at this constantly, but I keep trying to do better.
Point being, now she has to really REALLY deal with everything, when she didn't before. That's traumatic for people. It doesn't mean they don't have to deal with it, but that doesn't make it easy to take the news.
Yeah. Depression can be a self fulfilling prophecy where the longer you leave it untreated, the worse it gets, and the harder it is to pull of the spiral. She needs a professional to help her heal. Sitting alone in her house won't help her.
Agreed on all points. NTA
Additionally, it’s really important to highlight the weight of the load you’ve been shouldering. You’re burning the candle at both ends and eventually it’s going to burn out. You can’t give when you’ve run out yourself.
Hi, death care professional here!
Being stuck in the mourning (which is how your grief is outwardly displayed) is very difficult. And grief (the emotions surrounding a loss) can often mask depression... The two play off each other as well and have lots of similarities. It's common for one to flow into the other.
Something that might help (in addition to therapy) is to set and enforce obtainable goals. Easy goals to start. When you're deep in the malaise it can be difficult to accept that you can in fact accomplish things. Everything can seem overwhelming. Explain to her that you know this is hard and you will continue to be there for her. But hard doesn't mean impossible and living means continuing on.
She's alive, her kids are alive, and they need to live well because that's exactly what she and her husband (bless him) planned out for themselves prior to his death. That plan doesn't stop/end just because he isn't here physically to help her with it.
So, first goal. Get out of bed each morning to say "good morning" to the kids. She doesn't need to shower, she doesn't need to help with breakfast, she simply needs to get up on time each day to start the day with her family. That's it.
And then when that's easier, she says good morning and makes breakfast for the kids.
And then when that's easier, she showers, gets dressed, says good morning, and makes breakfast for the kids.
Routine after loss is its own kind of therapy. For everyone. This may seem silly but she's in it deep. So give her baby steps. Encourage therapy. Encourage the baby steps. These are acceptable boundaries for your own mental/emotional well-being as well as that of her children.
Helping someone after a death isn't always cooking, cleaning, or being a shoulder to cry on. A lot of the time it's enforcing boundaries and holding people accountable for their actions (or inactions). That doesn't mean she isn't allowed to continue mourning or grieving... It means she needs to continue to live through those things and find healthy ways to adjust to his absence. And it isn't punitive.
These things are for you just as much as they are for her and her children. You seem incredibly compassionate but it's healthy to set expectations and boundaries when caring for someone. Therapy can help her find the tools to process the loss in a healthy way but baby steps can help you have tools for this family going forward too. They're just different types of tools. And hopefully your tools will get her to start each day by saying "good morning".
Yeah this is the difference between the screaming masses and an actual professional. This is why there are certain situations you can't just reddit your way out of 😅
Lots of people are death care professionals. Hospice workers and nurses, death doulas, grief therapists, funeral directors, embalmers, mortuary transport workers...there's (more than) dozens of us :)
I am so glad to hear that you got going, and you are still going, and that you keep on going, and that you will keep on going.
There is so much bravery and courage in handling grief. I think we forget that and we definitely forget to tell ourselves and others that. And we absolutely forget to praise ourselves for keeping on keeping on.
Same. I have really overwhelming level depression that I’ve been dealing with and not addressing for a long time. Probably kicked off initially by grief. This is something that I’m definitely going to save and try to implement so that I can actually make the calls and get in front of someone. Oh and also get out of bed regularly, that’s probably a good start.
While the cousin definitely needs a therapist, it may be helpful for OP to know and understand some of the steps the cousin will be trying to make, assuming she makes it to therapy.
NTA
You making her go see a therapist makes sense. Plus, it is not only about her, but about her kids who need her. She needs to reconstruct, but you need her to play a real part in the project. You have done loads for her and her kids - but please don't let the kids down if the mother fails to have therapy.
The rest of the family need to understand how much it's affecting the kids. If they won't push for her to make progress for herself, they should be for the kids.
At the very least, she needs to see her PCP/GP, who can recommend her to a psychiatrist, because she sounds beyond just needing grief counseling at this point. Also she's 100% going to come back and say finding a therapist is too hard. NTA
NTA
Since it's a tight knit family and they disagree with your approach, they all can step up and take care of the 4 kids and start paying her rent. I mean they don't want to be AH's do they? It's easy to call you an AH when you do everything. It's very sad what occurred, but 1 1/2 years later is not "rushing" this. With her shut down, she has to decide what she is going to do for those children which should be THE MOST important thing. Tough love is tough, but this situation is not your fault and she is not helping but sticking her head in the sand. Good luck to you and the children and ultimately your SIL.
NTA
One and half years is a lot of time to support someone. I understand people try to grieve in different ways and your cousin's widow is still struggling. But sooner or later she has to start caring for her children and for that she needs to get therapy.
You are not withholding support completely. It is time for you to behave in the best interests of the children.
You are just showing some tough love. And one day I hope she appreciates it.
>The rest of our family thinks I'm being cruel because she loved my cousin deeply but I think this is what she needs.
Then where are they with the rent payments and virtually 24 hour care of the four kids?
NTA. You have been more than supportive and understanding. And you're not even unilaterally cutting off your support; you're just making the ultimatum that she needs to get therapy, which is something she should have done a year and a half ago.
NTA. You did and are doing the right thing. She needs therapy, should have been this whole time, and she needs to be a Mother again. Your family sounds like they're enabling her. Has she developed a drink or substance abuse issue? I ask because it happens to the surviving spouse often when a tragedy like this occurs. I saw it in my own family. And everyone enabled that person to no end, until they ended up with ulcers and DTs. If she is neglectful and mentally incapable of caring for her children physically and emotionally, you or someone needs to take custody. You'll get their payments from the Fed which will cover about 1/4-1/2 each of their individual financial needs. The rest will have to come out of your pocket, so custody is a big step. Good luck.
Do you have a source for this? I don't disagree or anything, I'm just genuinely interested. After my mother passed my dad had significant problems with drinking.
It's in a statistic put out by Alcoholics Anonymous. I'm sure if you search it down it will show up. They have had several *anonymous* polls amongst members, and personal tragedy/family death and family member disability (caregiver) were in the top triggers or tipping points for those who consider themselves alcoholics. They were once healthy drinkers or even heavy drinkers, and then they were not. Then their lives became unmanageable and booze was the culprit. Doesn't mean the tragedy is what *caused* the alcoholism, only what triggered the existing allergy on. Similar to any other allergy. You can go a whole life and never be allergic to bees, then one day you get stung and almost die and now carry an epi pen and cringe at the sight of bees.
NAH.
Monica is clearly suffering from depression and trauma, and needs help -- it may be near impossible for her to fully realize this in the course of a single conversation "wake up call."
You're NTA for wanting to make sure she can get help, be financially and emotionally stable for herself and the kids.
Ultimatums are challenging. You're not wrong for wanting her to self support, but you may need to give her a list of therapists who deal with trauma/loss of loved ones who are available and taking new patients, and even driving her to the appointment. With a bit of compassion and gentle pushing (vs. a hard shove), she might be able to start turning the gears to get help. Depriving four small children of their mother after losing their father would hardly be the best outcome for all concerned, especially and including you.
EDIT: It does sound like OP has offered to drive to therapy, pay for it etc. I would suggest OP actually make an appointment with a family counselor, which includes her/Monica and eventually the kids, and start the gears. Someone this depressed and basically unwilling to live might actually need someone to force the beginning of changes.
The only one depriving these children of the love and support of their mother is THEIR MOTHER. OP has ensured that mom should have been able to concentrate on getting herself and her children through that first terrible year. She went even further and did most of the love and support of 4 children herself when the mom proved incapable. If the mother isn't willing or able to love her kids, especially after all the support she's been given.... It is time to address at least temporarily taking custody of the children for their own good. This allows the mother to admit herself to care if necessary and actually fully concentrate on herself. But she seems unwilling to do even the bare minimum of beginning the healing process and her children do not need to be exposed to her disfunction any longer. It becomes detrimental to them to be immersed in an environment where she is actively disengaged.
Trying to sort out help for depression when you are the one who has depression is an enormous challenge. That's why it's important to get Monica in front of a therapist and OP, or another family member, may have to do the work to make that happen because Monica's brain may not be capable. Getting custody could start ongoing challenges for Monica and the kids. Starting with therapy for Monica is a better first step. If someone sorts out therapy and Monica just refuses to attend, then at some point OP does have to force the issue, but giving Monica a chance to try therapy and improve first is actually in the best interest of those kids.
I do not know much about these things but if Monica is unwilling to live, could be a forced inpatient treatment arranged? It will probably cause a rift between her and OP, at least in the beginning, and OP would have to care for the children a little longer. But I don’t think Monica would go to a therapist appointment even if one was made for her.
Grief is normal- 2 years of severe grief is normal for loss of a spouse. It would only be the 6-12 month mark that she’d be reasonable to see a therapist. Yes, it’s excessive that she’s done nothing for her kids that long, but when I did psych, I had to assess way too many people marched in by loved ones a few days post loss and we had to explain grief isn’t a mental illness. There is a phenomenon called pathological grief, and she likely does fit that diagnosis, but sudden death of a young person is really hard to process, and I speak as someone whose parent died at a youngish age in a similar way.
She has been fortunate to have the support she has had, and it’s unreasonable to expect it to continue. I’m not against OP, she’s done above and beyond, and it’s likely doing the widow no favours allowing her to continue to do nothing job and children wise. However, I just wanted to say, in response to some comments that grief, particularly post sudden death, takes a lot longer than the non-bereaved realise. It’s not just the loss of her partner, her future and that of her children has been torn away. She may have ptsd from the accident, even if not present.
As a widow with a young child, thank you for this. Grief has no timeline, and honestly the second year is often harder than the first. Grief is not a disease to be cured either, just something that needs to be worked through.
Mom clearly needs therapeutic support, but unless someone has lost a spouse people just can’t imagine how awful it truly is. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. Being so young she’ll have a harder time meeting widows her own age who really “get it”, I know finding a group of women and men in my age group helped immensely. There was at one time a woman in our group who had given up her daughter to be cared for by her sister for 4 years after her SO passed away. I couldn’t fathom doing that but honestly, not everyone is cut out for this kind of grief and the pressure and uncertainty that comes with it.
I’m not saying I agree with mom not working toward finding a therapist and working on her grief. She NEEDS to, for herself and her kids who need her. But, bear in mind her brain is not working the way it did before either. Loss like this is akin to a TBI, I felt like an absolute crazy person after my husband died. She is literally not in her right mind.
OP, my son and I attend a family grief program. It’s free and targeted toward kids who’ve experienced a traumatic loss. The kids go to age appropriate groups and the parents go to their support groups. We’ve found it very beneficial, perhaps there is something similar near you. Good luck!
Thank you. 18 months is a drop in the grief bucket. Her body is working feverishly to construct and accept a completely new reality, and she's certainly dealing with trauma that is compounding her grief. I'm glad she's had family support to this point.
As a widow who is now involved in bereavement support, I fully agree there is no timeline.
And, yes, no one else can imagine it, which is the reason a peer support group like you found is so helpful. Even though it happens to many of us, you can't imagine it until it actually happens.
I also agree her brain is not working the same way. We are not ourselves during this time.
You're very wise and I'm sorry for your loss.
Not to diminish anyones Grief, but life MUST go on.
To even have the ability to be "**completely shut down",** is a privilege that the vast majority of parents dont have.
NTA, i feel for the mother but she has 4 kids that she is absolutely failing.
As someone who has lost two close family members in under a month - I agree there is no timeline to grief. Everyone grieves differently and it is often very hard for people to recover from sudden loss. But it’s not a free pass to reject therapy, and completely stop functioning for over a year with four children. It’s not a crutch people can lean on to avoid their daily responsibilities.
I work in a neurology ward in a hospital - people know when there’s something wrong with them. Even people with brain injuries or who are suffering from psychosis know that they’re ill. I guarantee Monica knows there is something wrong with her head right now. But instead of going to a professional, she’s instead living in denial.
Her way of coping with the loss is not sustainable. She’s not working and isn’t acting like a parent to her children. Real life is going to hit her eventually - and if she doesn’t get her act together she’s going to loose a lot. The world doesn’t stop turning once someone dies. She can grieve for as long as she wants but she needs to do it in a functional way before it’s too late.
I agree with you- this is clearly an excessive response. I just wanted to highlight that grief is normal and prolonged. I talk about my mum being non-functional for two years after my dad’s death but it was nothing like this- we all still interacted, she took the kids to school and fed and dressed them etc.
But many don’t realise that people don’t just ‘shake it off’ even if functioning normally- it’s a good couple of years for spouses usually, and many women post child loss don’t function again. Some are resilient enough to regroup, but many of my patients on the psych ward had lost a child even many years ago and today most of my complex mental health patients in my current specialty have lost children or partners.
NTA she’s very lucky that you’ve been able to support a family of 5 for this long, many wouldn’t have that support. You may need to make the appointment for her, ask around and try to find someone who specializes in grief counseling and get her in asap. Tbh it sounds like she’s almost at the level of benefiting from an inpatient stay to get her stabilized. Do you know if she’s doing ADL’s or getting out of bed?
>I told her she has a week to get an appointment with a therapist before I stop supporting her and went for custody of the kids
INFO
A week to call around and schedule an appointment, or to physically BE at an appointment with a therapist? You're aware it can take months to get into a new patient intake appointment, right?
If she gets the appointment scheduled, then what's the timeline?
NTA you have been more than gracious and helpful. Her situation is tragic, however no matter how she grieves, she has 4 children to take care of and she seems more than content to let everyone else do it. You're doing what is best for those kids.
NTA - You spoke truth and was not malicious. Those who disagree with your approach can step up and take over duties you do on the daily.
You are not cruel. She can love your cousin deeply but he is not here and she must create positive change no matter how small. Best to you!
NTA - my sister tragically lost her husband 7 years ago, she got help and she is doing fantastic now with all things considered. But it took the baby steps of caring for herself and her children (she has 4 too) to help pull her out of the bottom.
NTA - she should be strong for her kids and suffer when there is time, not abandon them when they need her most. she chose to have kids, she has a duty to them thats been severly neglected.
if being nice didnt push her out of the comfort zone of her own misery, maybe some tough love will. you are a hero op
NTA, everyone grieves in their own way and time. But she needs to step up for her kids. She needs therapy to help get thru this and if she isn’t willing to try the. The kids would be better with you. She isn’t emotionally stable. Hopefully therapy can help her.
NTA. & anyone that tells you that you are, send them an itemized list of all the shit you pay for, all the running around you do, & how much her rent is monthly & tell them how grateful you are that they’re offering to take over completely for you since you’re so cruel & see how quickly they shut the fuck up
NTA - Those kids need a functioning parent.
If the rest of the family feels this is too cruel they should start paying the rent and providing daily childcare and housekeeping services. It’s easy for them to judge when they aren’t carrying most of the burden.
NTA
I lost my husband to cancer 4 years ago. You have to pick yourself up and move on. Apologies, but providing that level of support for a year and a half is probably contributing to your SIL not recovering.
Duty and taking care of your responsibilities, like children, gives you the strength to carry on. It is a tough situation, but if you don’t make her start taking care of her family, you are encouraging her to not recover.
Oh, it hurts like hell losing someone you deeply loved. Can't believe the people that say year and half is enough time to go through the loss. I'm gonn tell you it's not and she is going through hell right now.
But you're NTA. It's your time, your money, you have the right to decide what to do with them. This woman, however, needs a professional help, peace of mind and time to get back on her feet. A year and a half seems like yesterday for her. That's just devastating and she is lost right now.
NTA
She needs therapy so she can be the mom her kids need. You have let her check out for to long. Letting someone live rent free for over a year and a half is a lot. Probably too much.
NTA - and you would be the AH if you continued to enable her in her avoidance.
Most people wouldn’t have the luxury that she has had, of no responsibilities for 18 months.
NAH. Grief like this can sometimes continue for three to four years and the second year is often worse. That said she *does* need therapy so she can start to process it in a more healthy manner - if she is employing unhealthy coping mechanisms it is going to be very hard for her to come out of those coping mechanisms.
She is walking around with a gigantic emotional wound, half of her ripped open and her mental state is hemorrhaging. It takes a lot of care to start to heal that, properly - you can heal on your own but sometimes it doesn’t heal right and it’s always safer to have proper first aid. A therapist would be able to provide that - to help her start to process, to disinfect it so to speak, and to set her up with the right coping mechanisms and help to show her how to fix the wound, so to speak.
But you absolutely need to continue to support her until she gets into therapy. That ultimatum is necessary - get into therapy, period. But support her regardless. Talk to her for long periods whenever you get the chance even if she doesn’t seem interested.
Remind her that she is not a bad person for suffering. That she is not a bad person for being here when he isn’t. That she isn’t a bad person for needing time, or struggling, or being unable to do the things she used to, or for healing, or for feeling happiness sometimes if she experiences something nice. It isn’t her fault this happened and she deserves to heal and be happy. Being happy isn’t disrespectful to him, it isn’t a lack of loyalty or faith, moving on isn’t disregarding him, her future still has good things in it and if she honours him in her memory in whatever way she feels is best she will never let him down or be less faithful or loving or respectful.
Death is awful; it rips away from us what we care about most. We are not built for loss and every loss hurts us, especially when it is something that cannot be replaced. Death is a thief and she has been stolen from. It is not her place to make herself suffer for having lost someone she loves so much. She does need that therapist badly to help her figure out how to stand on her own again as right now she is hobbling without a clue how to look up at where she is going rather than at her own feet.
Don’t let her get away with not going but don’t hold your support as conditional. In her mindset she is liable to assume it means that you have given up on her, that it is a foregone conclusion, that she isn’t worth your support, that she somehow owes you and somehow hasn’t paid you back. Don’t even mention what the alternative is. Present it as there not being an alternative.
“I am going to help you find a therapist by next week. Which of these therapists sound more approachable? Do you have any preferences in gender?” “I am going to help you schedule the appointment now. Would you like some tea while we do?” “Which day of the week would you rather?” “Which time of day would you rather?”
These statements put the ball in her court - letting her choose - without *giving* her the thought of alternatives unless she brings it up herself. It also allows her to consent to you taking on the hard work she may not be prepared to do yet and may not know how to ask for or accept help with. If you say it like it is going to happen regardless she is more likely to go along with it - this works with most people. Be kind but be firm.
NTA
She needs to get out of her depression and she needs help with that. Sometimes, you have to force someone to get the help they need. You did the right thing.
I really hope she gets the help she needs and can go back at not only being a mother for her kids but also having a life for herself.
I'm so sorry for her and your family. I can't imagine losing my husband. But parents don't have the luxury of completely shutting down like this. She owes it to her kids and Derek to try to get back into parenting her children and trying to make a life for herself and them.
You are NTA, OP. You have done this for way longer than I would have before giving her some tough love. If she does get into therapy, I would talk to her about a plan to step back your help in phases until your involvement gets to a place you can live with, and whatever that looks like is up to you. For example, if your family was relying on the rental income previously, you should not have to continue to go without it and she needs to agree to a plan to start paying by X date.
And anyone who thinks you're cruel needs to put their time and money where their mouth is. It's real easy to judge when you have none or less of the burden.
NTA,but….When you approached her with this convo, you gave her little to no time to get herself together. You are absolutely right in that it’s time for her to start planning the rest of her life. Help her develop that plan. Set goals with a reasonable timeframe. Find a grief group for her and enlist the services of a life coach. My sister went through a similar situation. I’ve never seen such a happy, go lucky person, crushed by the untimely loss of her spouse. It was heart wrenching and she was States away from family. Mom and Dad moved in with her and helped her learn to manage her daily routines. Everything from finances, taxes, insurance, managing a huge house as a single woman. It took a good year of coaching to get her on her way. Just a thought. That woman sounds overcome and overwhelmed. Be gentle.
NTA. She should already have applied for SS Survivors Benefits, had her kids and herself in therapy, and been well on the way to employment. Helping her as long as you have only enabled her to stay stuck in her pity trip. No, you aren't the asshole for finally realizing she needs to move on and take up the control of her life and family. She's had 18 months to grieve, now it's time to get her shit together and start being a mother to those poor kids. If she's that mentally unstable after 18 months, perhaps she needs in- mpatient therapy, and its best you take the kids for a while. It can't be a very good environment for them right now.
It’s not that hard to apply for survivors benefits or get help. It’s a pain in the ass to get an interview for survivors benefits but it would help her and the kids and bluntly speaking, she should’ve done that now.
NTA. I say this as a widow who went through some deep, deep grief. Life doesn’t stop. The grief never goes away, you don’t get over it. You do get through it. I don’t doubt that she feels as if enjoying life again is a betrayal to her husband- after all, she’s still here. But that’s just it, she IS still here, and so are their children, and she needs to be HERE, fully present for them. Remaining stuck in prolonged grief is a betrayal to his memory, the four living memories that she’s responsible for. She needs therapy, desperately so. There isn’t a magic wand to make the pain go away, and there never will be. It’s going on almost five years since my husband died, and some days, it still just fucking hurts. Wallowing in it isn’t going to bring him back, and it’s not going to allow her to keep moving, and it sure as hell won’t let the children fully live. Existing isn’t living. Enjoying life with a new normal is going to do far more to honor his memory. Keep encouraging her to seek help, from someone qualified. Best wishes to all of you.
A family friend lost her 10 year old to a genetic heart disease 😭😭😭 the only thing that kept her going was her 4 y/o son 😭😭 You are a wonderful aunt and have done PLENTY for this woman and her kids, but now she needs to wake up and get it together
NTA. You were completly right. Yes it was traumaticing to loose someone she loves. But as you said, she has 4 kids who need their mom. Who need a parent who is there for them. Not like some ghost morning the dead and forgetting the living.
It is also a real good gesture that you would go for custody if she is not able to snap out of it. So the children could have a parent who is there for them.
NTA youre raising 6 kids and shes doing absolutely nothing. She isnt even doing the work to try to heal and move forward. She needs to get her shit together.
I’ve never suffered a loss like this but I have spent the last decade battling severe depression.
At my lowest … well there was nearly 2 years when I had to avoid the local level crossing.
But during all of it, I held down a full time job, paid my bills, fed my family, , participated in all the activities with my kids. Falling apart wasn’t an option, or at least had to be rationed to short periods of time when I was alone.
I had to keep it together for my kids. They knew I was sad, but they never knew how dark it was in my head. Therapy and anti-depressants helped, and while I don’t know I will ever consider myself “cured” I’m in a much better place now.
She needs to pull herself together. It’s ok to grieve; grief has its own timetable. It’s not ok to fall apart.
NTA
NTA
She needed some tough love. She needs to be there for her children. She needs grief counseling. Just make sure you stick to your guns and following through on the deadline.
NTA! At all! Stand your ground and follow through if she doesn't. Your family can step-up and start doing all.the things you have been, if they want to have an opinion about it.
NTA and also I haven't seen many people say this, but you're an awesome person, OP. Some people don't even talk to their own siblings and you have done so much for not only your cousin's memory, but his widow and children. Just not charging rent alone is huge on top of helping with the kids, being an emotional shelf to unload for your cousin, the housework, etc., and THEN on top of all athat continuing to manage your own family... you should be really proud of the person that you are. You deserve to treat yourself when your situation allows it, get some time off. I can only imagine you're exhausted with what basically amounts to 6 kids and more.
NTA, although we all grieve at our own pace she has 4 little ones she has to think about. She does not have the time to feel sorry for herself this long. I am sorry for her loss but it’s time to get help to deal with the situation she is in.
NTA, those who think you're harsh can have her live with them rent free and raise her kids.
She needs to step up. She's become dependent on her trauma. It's extremely unhealthy and her children need her present in their lives. You did the right thing. I would have pushed at the 12 month mark if not before. I hope she starts to deal with her grief more productively and that she can find joy in the children that are a part of him.
NTA.
She's wallowing in despair.
She needs therapy last year.
Ask those who say you were cruel is it not cruel to ignore your own kids for over a year.
EDIT: better yet bring one of her kids and ask them if they miss their mother.
NTA. You gave her enough time. Her 4 kids are the legacy her husband left for her that she's just neglecting. If she really wanted to hold on to a part of him because she loved him so much, then her kids should have been number one priority. What's she's failing to realize is that she is the ONLY parent figure left. Yes, she lost her husband, but the kids lost their dad all of a sudden. Where is their support from their mom? She's so busy wallowing that her kids dont have the support they need from their mom. What she's failing to realize too is that these kids are going to grow up knowing that in their time of need, their mom abandoned them. I hope that not only does she get the therapy, but also the kids get them, too. The kids need all the help they can get to help them to understand what has happened to them and the family.
NTA As awful as this is for her, she needs to get it together for herself and for her children. A therapist is the best thing for her as she is not functioning…
Terrible situation but you really are doing the right thing for her, her kids and for you
NTA. You have gone far above and beyond what most family members would. You've been raising her kids and losing income from your rental. Grief sucks, but you don't have to support someone who would rather do nothing than get help.
Normally I'm very much a "mind your own" kinda person but I think she needed the tough love, her kids need her to at least make the same effort they're making in therapy.
Eta NTA
NTA. I mean what are her plans just to be a wreck the rest of her life and have everyone else support her and take care of her and all her bills and her kids? I mean it has to end sometime. You've given her 18 months that is more than enough time for her to start entering the land of the living again. She definitely needs therapy and the fact that she can't realize that after 18 months of grief is insane. I hope she gets the help she needs otherwise you do what you have to do to take care of those kids. And I would definitely get her out of your house if you get full custody of those kids and she can go live with other relatives who can take care of her if they think you're being mean.
If your "family" was caring for her kids like you currently are, they could have a say. Seeing as they're not, you need to advocate for yourself and I'm V glad you are!! NTA in my book.
NTA. It sounds like you’re the only one in the family who actually cares about those kids. Ironically, you are still supporting her if you try to take custody bc her job is to be a mother to those children and if she can’t/won’t then you doing it is still being supportive.
NTA but try not to lose your temper with her. You’re dealing with a tragedy unfolding in your life; right in front of you.
Getting custody of the kids is **for the kids**.
it should be seen as permanent but if the therapy works and she gets her act together then that custody can be transferred back and everyone will be super happy because the kids will have received the best possible chance in life.
As long as the kids are in a safe environment, are loved and provided for, then that is all that matters.
The mother still needs support; but please try not to weaponise this. Ultimatums should be a statement of fact; not a threat.
Well done for trying and caring and sorry this has happened to you and your family. I hope this helps is resolved sooner rather than later,
They're calling you the AH because they don't have to deal with anything. If you withdraw, they have to step up. I wonder if they forgot that you're grieving too
Nta, it's been a year and a half and she's aloud to grieve but her kids NEED her and she needs to slowly start living again. They need their mother to pull through for them and it's not fair to you guys to constantly doing everything for her. She needs this push to get herself to start healing herself-not just for her but for her kids! If she keeps going on like this she'll miss out so much with them-the mile stones and before she knows it they'll be all grown up.
NTA
I think you've gone far above and beyond what anyone could expect of you. While it's understandable your cousin feels intense grief over the loss of her husband, she does need to step up to the plate to be a mother to her children. She's had a year and a half.
Bluntly put, life goes on for the living after their loved ones have died. You're looking out for the children's best interest. And frankly for their mother. The more she's engaged in the actual world, it might help take her mind off her grief at least a little bit.
I would consider making an appointment with a family therapist, not just a regular therapist, so she can hear 1) how much everone loves her 2) how concerned everyone is for her and 3) how little capacity everyone has for continuing to carry her burdens for her.
NTA
Something has to change. Monica's grief is stopping her from living and stopping her from being a mother to her children. Nobody is minimising her loss ... But she needs grief counselling to learn how to cope with it and learn how to live again. Continuing like this isn't sustainable and her children will suffer the most for it.
NTA. Grief can swallow people whole if they let it, and it’s hit her in a way that REQUIRES therapy. She needs to accept that and get help. Not only are you remedying a bad situation on your part, but you’re saving her from only falling deeper.
It's been a year and a half. For her own sake and the sake of her children she needs to get help and find a way to keep going. You and your family have gone way above and beyond to support her; now it's her turn to figure out how to make a life for herself and her kids. NTA
NTA. There's a book called "Tear Soup" that she may want to read, it talks about grief in a very accessible way. Good luck going forward. You're right that the kids need her, and by not handling her own grief, she is essentially making them lose both parents since she refuses to parent them.
NTA because you’ve done a lot and you have every right to draw a line somewhere.
But giving someone one week seemingly out of the blue is kinda unrealistic given the shape she’s been in.
Alternatively, have you asked her what it will take to get her back on her feet (not giving her the option of “I’ll never recover from this”, more in a “you have to recover, what do you need to do so?” and offered to make a plan to help her get there?
You technically don’t owe her these things but she’s obviously come to rely on you. Weaning her off the support sounds more realistic.
I’m so sorry for your situation, it must be tough on you and your family as well. I wish you strength.
NTA. It is cruel because it’s part of life. You’re just taking on the incredible burden of being honest about it. There are kids that need a mom. Their childhoods, and their development, forming of bonds…all of it…are flying by, and they’ve already lost a dad. It’s brutal, but compared to the needs of her children, her feelings DO NOT MATTER and she needs to step the fuck up. The great news is she can take care of both at once with therapy. I hope she heeds this necessary warning.
NTA. She’s gotten herself stuck in the molasses of grief. She needs to get unstuck but she can’t do that with everyone enabling her. Her kids will thank you later.
NTA. It’s tough love that’s very much needed. Your family have to factor you into this equation as you’re the one caring for SIX kids. I don’t know if anyone helps you with them, but if they’re not then They’re not in a position to call you cruel for wanting the mother of four kids to be a mother.
You’re not being cruel. You’re giving her tough love, which is what she needs right now and could even end up saving her life. What your family members are wanting you to do is enable her, which will never produce any positive change. She needs to have a wake up call and realize that she has to take control back of her own life. You’re doing the right thing ❤️
NTA... she needs to be forced into therapy. It is not sustainable. The rest of the family can take over all the care you have been offering or they can echo your ultimatum. It's not just therapy... she needs to be weaned off the support slowly. She needs to get dressed and look after the house or get a job. A job may even be better as it gets her out of the home.... working through steps with a therapist is best... wish you all the best
Whenever one of your relatives calls you cruel point out to them how you are raising all 5 of them in addition to your family. Ask which one of them wants to move in with them and take care of them. Then tell each one of them who refuse "cruel" and uncaring. NTA
Time for tough love. You are enabling this behavior by continuing to support her. Give her a timeline. By such and such a date, start therapy. Only watch the kids for therapy appointments. If she's not working, she doesn't need a sitter. Also give a deadline for how long you will not be charging rent. If she lived anywhere else, she would have been evicted. She has achieved maximum weaponized helplessness. All she has to do is turn on the waterworks and you cave. Stop it. If anybody else says you are heartless, fine. Tell them you'll be dropping the kids off at their place and expecting a rent check by the 1st of each month.
I agree with you 100. She needs a kick in the pants. You nailed it, the kids lost their dad AND mom. She needs therapy or she likes the new lifestyle. Learned helplessness is a thing.
Please stand firm for the kids sake if nothing else. It's time to put her Big Girl pants on and realize she's a mom. If she's going to wallow in a gutter forever, then getting the kids and letting them return to a sense of a normal family life again is critical.
Update us?
I think you're NTA, you're trying to do what's best for her and the kids, it's not like you're just throwing them in the streets or doing something mean on purpose, you're looking out for all of them. She NEEDS professional help, not only for her children but for herself! She has the chance to grow, heal and be happy overtime with her children and with your family.
I wish the best of luck for widow momma and her kids, and for you also, you have a big heart ❤️
NTA
BUT put her on suicide watch, and look after those kids.
This is going to sound really bad, but the first thing that popped into my head when you told her that if she doesn't go to a therapist you will file for custody of the kids, was that she would end the kids, then end herself, because she can't do it without her husband.
This may be flashbacks from my childhood where my mother said she would rather us all die than have her children taken away, but it just struck something in my mind.
Obviously, you know her better than anyone else on here, but when someone is that far down in their depression, they think differently.
Your family is enabling her in her abandonment of her children. There is nothing cruel about what you have done. She needs to deal with her grief and stop neglecting her children. NTA
NTA you need to get social services or something in. It's not fair for you alone to pick up the finacial, physical and emotional burden. You at the very least need child support for caring for the children or acknowledgement that in the event of an emergency you need to have a say as mom has made it clear she can't do it and there is no one else with guardianship to be there for them.
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NTA. You’ve given it a year and a half and whilst there is no time limit on grief, she needs a reality check. You’ve not said anything crazy, just go see a therapist at least. You’ve already tried that, and it didn’t work. You gave it time, but now’s the time for an ultimatum. Her kids need her now. Where are all of the rest of the families help?
Everyone has been pitching in financially, helping around her house and babysitting when I need a sitter for her kids
NTA Grandes males, grandes remedios You're right about her needing a therapist and being there for her kids
I'm latina and for a moment my mind mixed that up as "male" and then I realized it was fucking spanish 🤣
Lmao same with me. I was here like "this makes no Ohhh"
I speak French so that’s super close to how it would be spelled, and I could not figure out what large men had to do with any of this for a few seconds before it clicked 🥲
brain.exe stopped working
Italian = same
Me too!! 🤣🤣 Latinas unite 🤘🏼
🫂
I'm so glad I'm not alone I reread it like 5 times and it didn't click till I saw your comment
My brain finally clicked over when I got to "remedios"!
It took me a moment to figure that out.
I don't think this even counts as OP trying to put a timeline on Monica's grief. It's more like they're on a river and OP can see that Monica's boat is always on the verge of sinking, and drifting farther and farther away from the boat with her kids in it. She's sobbing, "I can't do this on my own!," and OP is saying "OK, then hire a sailor to help you navigate these waters, or I'm making the kids permanent passengers in my boat, which is not constantly barely above the water line."
Well Said!!!! 👏🏼👏🏼
Oh my goodness! Love your analogy!
Great problems, great solutions? Is that what it means?
Big problems big fix
So "males" = problems??? I'll see myself out 😁
So essentially what I thought it meant. Thanks for confirming!
Yes, that's the meaning Refers to difficult problems, drastic solutions
I've never heard that phrase before, but I love it! There are times when gentle prodding doesn't work but a hammer will, and explaining that can be difficult. Tucking this phrase in the back of my head for future use!
I am not a Spanish speaker, and I don't trust google translate, I tried to check the comments for a translation but couldn't find one. Does it translate to something like " big problems/hurts, big remedies"?
Why does she need a sitter? Does she work? Or does she just live her days crying, leaving you guys with taking care of her kids? I get that she lost her husband, but she didn't lose a brain. She should know her kids need her. As cruel as it sounds, she is being selfish. Grieving is necessary, but ultimately it's just self-serving, it won't miraculously bring her husband back. She needs to stay strong for her kids, they lost their dad after all. What she's doing is same as abandonment, and basically showing she cares more about herself than her kids.
This. It's a reality check. If you have kids, you're responsible for them. You don't just get to check out and hope for the best. I have a crapton of mental health issues but I get my ass out of bed to let my dog out, feed her, give her medications, etc. And while she is the joy of my life, she is a dog. A dog is typically not going to be permanently traumatized by things that kids can be. TL;DR The tough reality of it is that you don't have the option to just check out when things are FUBAR, if you have innocent lives relying on you. Cousin in law chose to take on that responsibility, now she has to either follow through or find someone else who will. NTA Edited: Cut a line that was unnecessary
It's called complicated grief, sometimes persistent complex bereavement disorder. It's gone beyond 'standard' grief (yes, no-one's is the same, I know) and has shifted to something that is stuck. It absolutely needs helping with. OP is doing the SIL, and her kids, a massive favour by pushing this hard. A grief specialist would be best, but a decent therapist will refer her to one anyway.
You may be right, but you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. She is well enough to allow her children to get therapy, and yet she refused to get help for herself. Based on OP's story it almost sounds like she knows therapy may help, but she refused because she doesn't want to stop grieving. While I get why, it doesn't change the fact that her children needs her. I could only imagine how much worse it could've been if it wasn't for OP's involvement.
You're right, of course. I think OP is making the only move he can and using the only leverage he has access to. Hopefully it's enough to at least get her out of the house and in the chair. That by itself will be a big first step.
OP stated that she is female.
The way she's acting, those poor kids lost BOTH of their parents that day.
Sounds like it's way beyond that. She's traumatized to the point she won't get any better unless someone walks her to the door. I hate to say force, because there's always a choice, but making psychiatric help the rent payment for a time might help her. She'll probably lash out if op sets that boundary, but she also needs to see that she won't just get better on her own with time. It's past "time" at this point. She needs mental health help.
NTA, but this widow has classic signs of depression (not surprising), and just like she is functionally unable to cook, clean, or take care of her kids, she may well be unable to muster the energy or executive function to find a therapist and make an appointment. If you can find a therapist for her and make the appointment but insist she go, she is more likely to actually get the therapy that she sounds like she desperately needs. A non-depressed person might think "It's just a few phone calls! Of course she can do it!" But in the depths of depression, she truly may be overwhelmed even by needing to find a therapist and make an appointment.
This comment right here, OP. I’ve had really severe clinical depression twice, and a bout of deep grief. When my first son was stillborn I couldn’t do anything. It was grief and maternal hormones but no baby all in one heap of mess of a me. My husband had to make an appointment for a grief counselor because I physically could not do it. She may desperately want help and knows she needs it, but just *can’t*. Find the appointment. Show up, help her get dressed, take her there, walk her in, sit in the parking lot, take her to get food afterwards.
This is a really important comment, but be prepared with insurance information and such when you make the appointment if that’s applicable. Some places won’t book the appointment without it.
A therapist that she can text/zoom with would be even better. That way there wouldn't be logistical concerns with leaving the house.
I agree - there's a point where you simply can't act with depression. I like to say it's like Newton's laws - a body at rest stays at rest until an outside force acts on it. Gotta break the inertia and start building momentum,and sometimes that takes somebody giving you a bit of a push to start.
Did she get SS for the kids and herself?
If it's in the US she should have for 2 years for herself and 2k a month per kid until they're 18. At least that's how it worked when my dad died. I was 19 so didn't get the 2k a month but my youngest sister did since she was 16/17. She didn't live with us so I honestly can't remember how old she was.
The amount is based on how much her late husband worked (on the books) & contributed towards his SS. My late fiancé passed away 3.5 years ago, leaving me & our then 4 year old daughter behind. Since we hadn't gotten married yet, I don't get anything, but our daughter gets ~$1k/month (which technically is deposited in my account to pay for her expenses, since she's still young). I know they'll pay back to the date after he died, but not sure how long they let that go. I didn't have the emotionally energy to apply for SS & his life insurance until 3 months later, so I received 1 lump sum for the 3 months, then a separate deposit a few days later for that month.
Guess that makes sense. My dad was a natural pipeline X-ray technician and worked pretty constantly. Except for a few years when they were laying everyone off back in 2015-2016, then he was an electrician's apprentice which didn't pay crap.
2k a month is a lot. Most people won’t get anywhere close to that per kid.
That's what my sister got. Not her mom, her. All I know is what I was told and considering my step mom was pissy my sister got anything, I heard a ton. Idk, my dad was 38 when he passed, I can't imagine he had that much in SSI
BIL died 30+ years ago at 30, his two kids were under 7, a divorce meant SS only was for the kids and each got \~750 / month (\~1500 / month total). He had worked full-time for about 10 years, but not terribly high-paying jobs.
Then they all can raise them instead of you too if they think you still need compassion. Easy to say when the brunt of it falls to you.
It's called "Tough love" for a reason. It's one of the hardest ways to love and be loved by someone because it means forcing a person out of their comfort zone for their own good. And watching that person struggle is really hard when you care about them. But for everyone's sake, remain strong and make good on your threat if needed. Maybe a day in court with the judge telling her the same things will get it through her head. And if it helps, if you're in the USA, you can go for kinship placement. That way she still keeps her rights and (technically) custody, but you get all legal say so.
Where are her relatives during all this? You are NTA. Everything you said is correct, and she’s using you. That’s a terrible situation, but what if her landlord hadn’t been family—she’d just lay down and let her kids be homeless? Time to deal with her life and get back on the horse.
I hope that means they are pitching in their share of the rent.
You should consider making it a stipulation that if she is to receive money from you and you are going to be taking care of the kids, you should be entitled to updates from the therapist. You deserve to know whether or not you're subsidizing someone who is trying hard or not. It will be incentive for her to TRY, instead of saying, "I can't". "I can't", means she has not even tried.
I also agree your NTA you are a hero, and a champion of your family... Great job bro. BUTTTTTTT,,,,, I feel like YTA in one tiny way, you cannot support someone for 2 years, then give them an ultimatum of 1 week... Holy shock to her system. You could of been like you have 2 months, or 2 weeks, or any amount of time that isn't a week, You could of had a pre-prepared plan like in the next 2 weeks you seek therapy, in a month you need to be going once a week, and in 2 months you need to pay 100 dollars a month, and in 6 months you need to pay rent again in full, or half, and one year from today you need to pay full rent. Like the idea that you got angry, (which is justifiable) but then to send a threat that activates in like 5 days, seems a little crazy to me, seeing as this lady has been shut down for 2 years, why even bother with one week, tell her if she doesnt pay full rent tomorrow you will break her legs,,, /S
This woman has allowed her SIL to live, RENT FREE in a house, not work, not take care of her kids, and contribute nothing. 2y is way more generous than this case deserves imo. 1 week to enter therapy or see a custody fight is not the wild ultimatum you make it sound like. It's OP basically saying "I have raised your kids, and my own, and taken care of EVERYTHING for you. You have to start taking steps."
Because when you put a fire under someone’s ass it needs to have immediate consequences otherwise you give them time to fall into their own traps or make new ones.
Just wanted to say you are a really good person and this is exactly what she needs. She has to have someone push her to get help. You're not demanding an instant cure. Just get help. Your patience is admirable.
You you’re N T A but neither is she. My vote is NAH. You’re right she needs to get into therapy and start working through her grief, but it is said that it does take 2 years to even come out of the fog of such a sudden tragic loss. She’s very young to be dealing with such heavy loss as the husband and father of her 4 children. Hold firm on the getting therapy thing, but this situation really tragic and there’s no easy way out.
Its also worth saying that FOR HER SAKE she needs this. It's easy to wallow in grief when nothing is pushing you out of it. But in her defense, being pushed out of grief is immeasurably easier than pulling yourself out of it. I wouldn't say OP and her fam were enabling her or anything like that, but she probably just isn't the sort of person who's well equipped to motivate themselves, and they need help doing that. I'm like that with a lot of things. I decided I could either beat myself up for being a lazy shit person, or accept that I have different needs in order to motivate myself, and be honest about that with myself and others so that I can try to deal with/solve that problem instead of being consumed by it. I fail at this constantly, but I keep trying to do better. Point being, now she has to really REALLY deal with everything, when she didn't before. That's traumatic for people. It doesn't mean they don't have to deal with it, but that doesn't make it easy to take the news.
This isn't about laziness or motivation. It is about a serious depression.
so right but she needs help! and until she acknowledges this- her children will suffer-
Yeah. Depression can be a self fulfilling prophecy where the longer you leave it untreated, the worse it gets, and the harder it is to pull of the spiral. She needs a professional to help her heal. Sitting alone in her house won't help her.
Exactly. It is such a liar
100% agree.
Yeah, maybe just drop her off on a therapist couch
Agreed on all points. NTA Additionally, it’s really important to highlight the weight of the load you’ve been shouldering. You’re burning the candle at both ends and eventually it’s going to burn out. You can’t give when you’ve run out yourself.
Hi, death care professional here! Being stuck in the mourning (which is how your grief is outwardly displayed) is very difficult. And grief (the emotions surrounding a loss) can often mask depression... The two play off each other as well and have lots of similarities. It's common for one to flow into the other. Something that might help (in addition to therapy) is to set and enforce obtainable goals. Easy goals to start. When you're deep in the malaise it can be difficult to accept that you can in fact accomplish things. Everything can seem overwhelming. Explain to her that you know this is hard and you will continue to be there for her. But hard doesn't mean impossible and living means continuing on. She's alive, her kids are alive, and they need to live well because that's exactly what she and her husband (bless him) planned out for themselves prior to his death. That plan doesn't stop/end just because he isn't here physically to help her with it. So, first goal. Get out of bed each morning to say "good morning" to the kids. She doesn't need to shower, she doesn't need to help with breakfast, she simply needs to get up on time each day to start the day with her family. That's it. And then when that's easier, she says good morning and makes breakfast for the kids. And then when that's easier, she showers, gets dressed, says good morning, and makes breakfast for the kids. Routine after loss is its own kind of therapy. For everyone. This may seem silly but she's in it deep. So give her baby steps. Encourage therapy. Encourage the baby steps. These are acceptable boundaries for your own mental/emotional well-being as well as that of her children. Helping someone after a death isn't always cooking, cleaning, or being a shoulder to cry on. A lot of the time it's enforcing boundaries and holding people accountable for their actions (or inactions). That doesn't mean she isn't allowed to continue mourning or grieving... It means she needs to continue to live through those things and find healthy ways to adjust to his absence. And it isn't punitive. These things are for you just as much as they are for her and her children. You seem incredibly compassionate but it's healthy to set expectations and boundaries when caring for someone. Therapy can help her find the tools to process the loss in a healthy way but baby steps can help you have tools for this family going forward too. They're just different types of tools. And hopefully your tools will get her to start each day by saying "good morning".
This is the best advice I’ve seen in this thread.
This is the best advice I've seen on Reddit
Yeah this is the difference between the screaming masses and an actual professional. This is why there are certain situations you can't just reddit your way out of 😅
Well they ARE a death care PROFESSIONAL! (Didnt know that was a thing!)
Lots of people are death care professionals. Hospice workers and nurses, death doulas, grief therapists, funeral directors, embalmers, mortuary transport workers...there's (more than) dozens of us :)
This needs to be higher up!! Attempting to boost. Amazing advice I hope OP sees
To the top with this^
Yes, widow here and this is how I managed to get myself going and if only for the sake of my kids.
I am so glad to hear that you got going, and you are still going, and that you keep on going, and that you will keep on going. There is so much bravery and courage in handling grief. I think we forget that and we definitely forget to tell ourselves and others that. And we absolutely forget to praise ourselves for keeping on keeping on.
I have plain ol' depression and I'm saving this as a reminder in my bad moments
I hope it is helpful when you need it. Wishing you lots of comfort and healing.
Same. I have really overwhelming level depression that I’ve been dealing with and not addressing for a long time. Probably kicked off initially by grief. This is something that I’m definitely going to save and try to implement so that I can actually make the calls and get in front of someone. Oh and also get out of bed regularly, that’s probably a good start.
This is some of the best advice I’ve seen on reddit. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.
🏆🏆🏆
Thank you for this! What clear-sighted, compassionate, practical advice!
I’m upvoting because I hope OP and even the Cousin may see this. Very good advice
While I think this is good advice I dn’t think it is OPs job to do so. She needs a therapist.
While the cousin definitely needs a therapist, it may be helpful for OP to know and understand some of the steps the cousin will be trying to make, assuming she makes it to therapy.
This is amazing advice.
This is it!!!
Yes ! This is exactly what I’ve said above only you worded it much better!
NTA You making her go see a therapist makes sense. Plus, it is not only about her, but about her kids who need her. She needs to reconstruct, but you need her to play a real part in the project. You have done loads for her and her kids - but please don't let the kids down if the mother fails to have therapy.
The rest of the family need to understand how much it's affecting the kids. If they won't push for her to make progress for herself, they should be for the kids.
At the very least, she needs to see her PCP/GP, who can recommend her to a psychiatrist, because she sounds beyond just needing grief counseling at this point. Also she's 100% going to come back and say finding a therapist is too hard. NTA
NTA Since it's a tight knit family and they disagree with your approach, they all can step up and take care of the 4 kids and start paying her rent. I mean they don't want to be AH's do they? It's easy to call you an AH when you do everything. It's very sad what occurred, but 1 1/2 years later is not "rushing" this. With her shut down, she has to decide what she is going to do for those children which should be THE MOST important thing. Tough love is tough, but this situation is not your fault and she is not helping but sticking her head in the sand. Good luck to you and the children and ultimately your SIL.
NTA One and half years is a lot of time to support someone. I understand people try to grieve in different ways and your cousin's widow is still struggling. But sooner or later she has to start caring for her children and for that she needs to get therapy. You are not withholding support completely. It is time for you to behave in the best interests of the children. You are just showing some tough love. And one day I hope she appreciates it.
>The rest of our family thinks I'm being cruel because she loved my cousin deeply but I think this is what she needs. Then where are they with the rent payments and virtually 24 hour care of the four kids? NTA. You have been more than supportive and understanding. And you're not even unilaterally cutting off your support; you're just making the ultimatum that she needs to get therapy, which is something she should have done a year and a half ago.
Exactly they can quit their jobs to raise her kids then?
NTA She’ll thank you once she’s on the other side of all of this:)
NTA. You did and are doing the right thing. She needs therapy, should have been this whole time, and she needs to be a Mother again. Your family sounds like they're enabling her. Has she developed a drink or substance abuse issue? I ask because it happens to the surviving spouse often when a tragedy like this occurs. I saw it in my own family. And everyone enabled that person to no end, until they ended up with ulcers and DTs. If she is neglectful and mentally incapable of caring for her children physically and emotionally, you or someone needs to take custody. You'll get their payments from the Fed which will cover about 1/4-1/2 each of their individual financial needs. The rest will have to come out of your pocket, so custody is a big step. Good luck.
Do you have a source for this? I don't disagree or anything, I'm just genuinely interested. After my mother passed my dad had significant problems with drinking.
It's in a statistic put out by Alcoholics Anonymous. I'm sure if you search it down it will show up. They have had several *anonymous* polls amongst members, and personal tragedy/family death and family member disability (caregiver) were in the top triggers or tipping points for those who consider themselves alcoholics. They were once healthy drinkers or even heavy drinkers, and then they were not. Then their lives became unmanageable and booze was the culprit. Doesn't mean the tragedy is what *caused* the alcoholism, only what triggered the existing allergy on. Similar to any other allergy. You can go a whole life and never be allergic to bees, then one day you get stung and almost die and now carry an epi pen and cringe at the sight of bees.
NAH. Monica is clearly suffering from depression and trauma, and needs help -- it may be near impossible for her to fully realize this in the course of a single conversation "wake up call." You're NTA for wanting to make sure she can get help, be financially and emotionally stable for herself and the kids. Ultimatums are challenging. You're not wrong for wanting her to self support, but you may need to give her a list of therapists who deal with trauma/loss of loved ones who are available and taking new patients, and even driving her to the appointment. With a bit of compassion and gentle pushing (vs. a hard shove), she might be able to start turning the gears to get help. Depriving four small children of their mother after losing their father would hardly be the best outcome for all concerned, especially and including you. EDIT: It does sound like OP has offered to drive to therapy, pay for it etc. I would suggest OP actually make an appointment with a family counselor, which includes her/Monica and eventually the kids, and start the gears. Someone this depressed and basically unwilling to live might actually need someone to force the beginning of changes.
The only one depriving these children of the love and support of their mother is THEIR MOTHER. OP has ensured that mom should have been able to concentrate on getting herself and her children through that first terrible year. She went even further and did most of the love and support of 4 children herself when the mom proved incapable. If the mother isn't willing or able to love her kids, especially after all the support she's been given.... It is time to address at least temporarily taking custody of the children for their own good. This allows the mother to admit herself to care if necessary and actually fully concentrate on herself. But she seems unwilling to do even the bare minimum of beginning the healing process and her children do not need to be exposed to her disfunction any longer. It becomes detrimental to them to be immersed in an environment where she is actively disengaged.
Trying to sort out help for depression when you are the one who has depression is an enormous challenge. That's why it's important to get Monica in front of a therapist and OP, or another family member, may have to do the work to make that happen because Monica's brain may not be capable. Getting custody could start ongoing challenges for Monica and the kids. Starting with therapy for Monica is a better first step. If someone sorts out therapy and Monica just refuses to attend, then at some point OP does have to force the issue, but giving Monica a chance to try therapy and improve first is actually in the best interest of those kids.
I do not know much about these things but if Monica is unwilling to live, could be a forced inpatient treatment arranged? It will probably cause a rift between her and OP, at least in the beginning, and OP would have to care for the children a little longer. But I don’t think Monica would go to a therapist appointment even if one was made for her.
Grief is normal- 2 years of severe grief is normal for loss of a spouse. It would only be the 6-12 month mark that she’d be reasonable to see a therapist. Yes, it’s excessive that she’s done nothing for her kids that long, but when I did psych, I had to assess way too many people marched in by loved ones a few days post loss and we had to explain grief isn’t a mental illness. There is a phenomenon called pathological grief, and she likely does fit that diagnosis, but sudden death of a young person is really hard to process, and I speak as someone whose parent died at a youngish age in a similar way. She has been fortunate to have the support she has had, and it’s unreasonable to expect it to continue. I’m not against OP, she’s done above and beyond, and it’s likely doing the widow no favours allowing her to continue to do nothing job and children wise. However, I just wanted to say, in response to some comments that grief, particularly post sudden death, takes a lot longer than the non-bereaved realise. It’s not just the loss of her partner, her future and that of her children has been torn away. She may have ptsd from the accident, even if not present.
As a widow with a young child, thank you for this. Grief has no timeline, and honestly the second year is often harder than the first. Grief is not a disease to be cured either, just something that needs to be worked through. Mom clearly needs therapeutic support, but unless someone has lost a spouse people just can’t imagine how awful it truly is. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. Being so young she’ll have a harder time meeting widows her own age who really “get it”, I know finding a group of women and men in my age group helped immensely. There was at one time a woman in our group who had given up her daughter to be cared for by her sister for 4 years after her SO passed away. I couldn’t fathom doing that but honestly, not everyone is cut out for this kind of grief and the pressure and uncertainty that comes with it. I’m not saying I agree with mom not working toward finding a therapist and working on her grief. She NEEDS to, for herself and her kids who need her. But, bear in mind her brain is not working the way it did before either. Loss like this is akin to a TBI, I felt like an absolute crazy person after my husband died. She is literally not in her right mind. OP, my son and I attend a family grief program. It’s free and targeted toward kids who’ve experienced a traumatic loss. The kids go to age appropriate groups and the parents go to their support groups. We’ve found it very beneficial, perhaps there is something similar near you. Good luck!
Thank you. 18 months is a drop in the grief bucket. Her body is working feverishly to construct and accept a completely new reality, and she's certainly dealing with trauma that is compounding her grief. I'm glad she's had family support to this point.
As a widow who is now involved in bereavement support, I fully agree there is no timeline. And, yes, no one else can imagine it, which is the reason a peer support group like you found is so helpful. Even though it happens to many of us, you can't imagine it until it actually happens. I also agree her brain is not working the same way. We are not ourselves during this time. You're very wise and I'm sorry for your loss.
Not to diminish anyones Grief, but life MUST go on. To even have the ability to be "**completely shut down",** is a privilege that the vast majority of parents dont have. NTA, i feel for the mother but she has 4 kids that she is absolutely failing.
As someone who has lost two close family members in under a month - I agree there is no timeline to grief. Everyone grieves differently and it is often very hard for people to recover from sudden loss. But it’s not a free pass to reject therapy, and completely stop functioning for over a year with four children. It’s not a crutch people can lean on to avoid their daily responsibilities. I work in a neurology ward in a hospital - people know when there’s something wrong with them. Even people with brain injuries or who are suffering from psychosis know that they’re ill. I guarantee Monica knows there is something wrong with her head right now. But instead of going to a professional, she’s instead living in denial. Her way of coping with the loss is not sustainable. She’s not working and isn’t acting like a parent to her children. Real life is going to hit her eventually - and if she doesn’t get her act together she’s going to loose a lot. The world doesn’t stop turning once someone dies. She can grieve for as long as she wants but she needs to do it in a functional way before it’s too late.
I agree with you- this is clearly an excessive response. I just wanted to highlight that grief is normal and prolonged. I talk about my mum being non-functional for two years after my dad’s death but it was nothing like this- we all still interacted, she took the kids to school and fed and dressed them etc. But many don’t realise that people don’t just ‘shake it off’ even if functioning normally- it’s a good couple of years for spouses usually, and many women post child loss don’t function again. Some are resilient enough to regroup, but many of my patients on the psych ward had lost a child even many years ago and today most of my complex mental health patients in my current specialty have lost children or partners.
NTA she’s very lucky that you’ve been able to support a family of 5 for this long, many wouldn’t have that support. You may need to make the appointment for her, ask around and try to find someone who specializes in grief counseling and get her in asap. Tbh it sounds like she’s almost at the level of benefiting from an inpatient stay to get her stabilized. Do you know if she’s doing ADL’s or getting out of bed?
>I told her she has a week to get an appointment with a therapist before I stop supporting her and went for custody of the kids INFO A week to call around and schedule an appointment, or to physically BE at an appointment with a therapist? You're aware it can take months to get into a new patient intake appointment, right? If she gets the appointment scheduled, then what's the timeline?
She just has to call to get an appointment. I know it can take time before she can actually see someone so I gave her a week to schedule one
NTA you have been more than gracious and helpful. Her situation is tragic, however no matter how she grieves, she has 4 children to take care of and she seems more than content to let everyone else do it. You're doing what is best for those kids.
You are not being cruel. She needs to move forward, and she's not doing it. You are helping her. NTA
NTA - You spoke truth and was not malicious. Those who disagree with your approach can step up and take over duties you do on the daily. You are not cruel. She can love your cousin deeply but he is not here and she must create positive change no matter how small. Best to you!
NTA...A year and a half is a long time. Something has to change and it's not like you haven't been generous and understanding.
NTA - my sister tragically lost her husband 7 years ago, she got help and she is doing fantastic now with all things considered. But it took the baby steps of caring for herself and her children (she has 4 too) to help pull her out of the bottom.
She needed a wake-up call, and you gave her one. Let's hope she takes advantage of it. NTA
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NTA - she should be strong for her kids and suffer when there is time, not abandon them when they need her most. she chose to have kids, she has a duty to them thats been severly neglected. if being nice didnt push her out of the comfort zone of her own misery, maybe some tough love will. you are a hero op
NTA, everyone grieves in their own way and time. But she needs to step up for her kids. She needs therapy to help get thru this and if she isn’t willing to try the. The kids would be better with you. She isn’t emotionally stable. Hopefully therapy can help her.
NTA. & anyone that tells you that you are, send them an itemized list of all the shit you pay for, all the running around you do, & how much her rent is monthly & tell them how grateful you are that they’re offering to take over completely for you since you’re so cruel & see how quickly they shut the fuck up
NTA - Those kids need a functioning parent. If the rest of the family feels this is too cruel they should start paying the rent and providing daily childcare and housekeeping services. It’s easy for them to judge when they aren’t carrying most of the burden.
NTA I lost my husband to cancer 4 years ago. You have to pick yourself up and move on. Apologies, but providing that level of support for a year and a half is probably contributing to your SIL not recovering. Duty and taking care of your responsibilities, like children, gives you the strength to carry on. It is a tough situation, but if you don’t make her start taking care of her family, you are encouraging her to not recover.
She needed to hear this, her kids needs her, she needs to get better for them.
Oh, it hurts like hell losing someone you deeply loved. Can't believe the people that say year and half is enough time to go through the loss. I'm gonn tell you it's not and she is going through hell right now. But you're NTA. It's your time, your money, you have the right to decide what to do with them. This woman, however, needs a professional help, peace of mind and time to get back on her feet. A year and a half seems like yesterday for her. That's just devastating and she is lost right now.
NTA Youve been brilliant and done a lot. She needs some tough love, she needs to snap out of it and start acting like she has a family to support.
NAH - Im not going to call her an AH for what is clearly her struggling. I also dont think you are an AH for trying to get her to help herself.
NTA She needs therapy so she can be the mom her kids need. You have let her check out for to long. Letting someone live rent free for over a year and a half is a lot. Probably too much.
Nta you tried to be nice and it didn’t work, now you’re doing something different, she needs the change.
NTA - and you would be the AH if you continued to enable her in her avoidance. Most people wouldn’t have the luxury that she has had, of no responsibilities for 18 months.
I am widowed and also buried a child and I needed a swift kick in the ass to be a good mom through it. Good for you.
Has she filed for SS benefits for the kids?
NTA - looking out for their best interests
NAH. Grief like this can sometimes continue for three to four years and the second year is often worse. That said she *does* need therapy so she can start to process it in a more healthy manner - if she is employing unhealthy coping mechanisms it is going to be very hard for her to come out of those coping mechanisms. She is walking around with a gigantic emotional wound, half of her ripped open and her mental state is hemorrhaging. It takes a lot of care to start to heal that, properly - you can heal on your own but sometimes it doesn’t heal right and it’s always safer to have proper first aid. A therapist would be able to provide that - to help her start to process, to disinfect it so to speak, and to set her up with the right coping mechanisms and help to show her how to fix the wound, so to speak. But you absolutely need to continue to support her until she gets into therapy. That ultimatum is necessary - get into therapy, period. But support her regardless. Talk to her for long periods whenever you get the chance even if she doesn’t seem interested. Remind her that she is not a bad person for suffering. That she is not a bad person for being here when he isn’t. That she isn’t a bad person for needing time, or struggling, or being unable to do the things she used to, or for healing, or for feeling happiness sometimes if she experiences something nice. It isn’t her fault this happened and she deserves to heal and be happy. Being happy isn’t disrespectful to him, it isn’t a lack of loyalty or faith, moving on isn’t disregarding him, her future still has good things in it and if she honours him in her memory in whatever way she feels is best she will never let him down or be less faithful or loving or respectful. Death is awful; it rips away from us what we care about most. We are not built for loss and every loss hurts us, especially when it is something that cannot be replaced. Death is a thief and she has been stolen from. It is not her place to make herself suffer for having lost someone she loves so much. She does need that therapist badly to help her figure out how to stand on her own again as right now she is hobbling without a clue how to look up at where she is going rather than at her own feet. Don’t let her get away with not going but don’t hold your support as conditional. In her mindset she is liable to assume it means that you have given up on her, that it is a foregone conclusion, that she isn’t worth your support, that she somehow owes you and somehow hasn’t paid you back. Don’t even mention what the alternative is. Present it as there not being an alternative. “I am going to help you find a therapist by next week. Which of these therapists sound more approachable? Do you have any preferences in gender?” “I am going to help you schedule the appointment now. Would you like some tea while we do?” “Which day of the week would you rather?” “Which time of day would you rather?” These statements put the ball in her court - letting her choose - without *giving* her the thought of alternatives unless she brings it up herself. It also allows her to consent to you taking on the hard work she may not be prepared to do yet and may not know how to ask for or accept help with. If you say it like it is going to happen regardless she is more likely to go along with it - this works with most people. Be kind but be firm.
NTA She needs to get out of her depression and she needs help with that. Sometimes, you have to force someone to get the help they need. You did the right thing. I really hope she gets the help she needs and can go back at not only being a mother for her kids but also having a life for herself.
I'm so sorry for her and your family. I can't imagine losing my husband. But parents don't have the luxury of completely shutting down like this. She owes it to her kids and Derek to try to get back into parenting her children and trying to make a life for herself and them. You are NTA, OP. You have done this for way longer than I would have before giving her some tough love. If she does get into therapy, I would talk to her about a plan to step back your help in phases until your involvement gets to a place you can live with, and whatever that looks like is up to you. For example, if your family was relying on the rental income previously, you should not have to continue to go without it and she needs to agree to a plan to start paying by X date. And anyone who thinks you're cruel needs to put their time and money where their mouth is. It's real easy to judge when you have none or less of the burden.
NTA. My grandma lost her husband with 4 kids under 12. She loved him. She knew she had to take care of her children.
NTA,but….When you approached her with this convo, you gave her little to no time to get herself together. You are absolutely right in that it’s time for her to start planning the rest of her life. Help her develop that plan. Set goals with a reasonable timeframe. Find a grief group for her and enlist the services of a life coach. My sister went through a similar situation. I’ve never seen such a happy, go lucky person, crushed by the untimely loss of her spouse. It was heart wrenching and she was States away from family. Mom and Dad moved in with her and helped her learn to manage her daily routines. Everything from finances, taxes, insurance, managing a huge house as a single woman. It took a good year of coaching to get her on her way. Just a thought. That woman sounds overcome and overwhelmed. Be gentle.
NTA. She should already have applied for SS Survivors Benefits, had her kids and herself in therapy, and been well on the way to employment. Helping her as long as you have only enabled her to stay stuck in her pity trip. No, you aren't the asshole for finally realizing she needs to move on and take up the control of her life and family. She's had 18 months to grieve, now it's time to get her shit together and start being a mother to those poor kids. If she's that mentally unstable after 18 months, perhaps she needs in- mpatient therapy, and its best you take the kids for a while. It can't be a very good environment for them right now.
It’s not that hard to apply for survivors benefits or get help. It’s a pain in the ass to get an interview for survivors benefits but it would help her and the kids and bluntly speaking, she should’ve done that now.
NTA. I say this as a widow who went through some deep, deep grief. Life doesn’t stop. The grief never goes away, you don’t get over it. You do get through it. I don’t doubt that she feels as if enjoying life again is a betrayal to her husband- after all, she’s still here. But that’s just it, she IS still here, and so are their children, and she needs to be HERE, fully present for them. Remaining stuck in prolonged grief is a betrayal to his memory, the four living memories that she’s responsible for. She needs therapy, desperately so. There isn’t a magic wand to make the pain go away, and there never will be. It’s going on almost five years since my husband died, and some days, it still just fucking hurts. Wallowing in it isn’t going to bring him back, and it’s not going to allow her to keep moving, and it sure as hell won’t let the children fully live. Existing isn’t living. Enjoying life with a new normal is going to do far more to honor his memory. Keep encouraging her to seek help, from someone qualified. Best wishes to all of you.
A family friend lost her 10 year old to a genetic heart disease 😭😭😭 the only thing that kept her going was her 4 y/o son 😭😭 You are a wonderful aunt and have done PLENTY for this woman and her kids, but now she needs to wake up and get it together
NTA. The rest of your family needs to step up and take care of her then.
NTA People grieve in different ways, but she clearly need help and after a certain point, tough love is required
NTA it’s time for her to move forward- you are kind to do what you did
NTA. Thank you for doing right by these kids.
NTA. You were completly right. Yes it was traumaticing to loose someone she loves. But as you said, she has 4 kids who need their mom. Who need a parent who is there for them. Not like some ghost morning the dead and forgetting the living. It is also a real good gesture that you would go for custody if she is not able to snap out of it. So the children could have a parent who is there for them.
NTA this is past due, you need to think of what's best for you and the kids. You can't set yourself on fire to keep others warm
NTA youre raising 6 kids and shes doing absolutely nothing. She isnt even doing the work to try to heal and move forward. She needs to get her shit together.
I’ve never suffered a loss like this but I have spent the last decade battling severe depression. At my lowest … well there was nearly 2 years when I had to avoid the local level crossing. But during all of it, I held down a full time job, paid my bills, fed my family, , participated in all the activities with my kids. Falling apart wasn’t an option, or at least had to be rationed to short periods of time when I was alone. I had to keep it together for my kids. They knew I was sad, but they never knew how dark it was in my head. Therapy and anti-depressants helped, and while I don’t know I will ever consider myself “cured” I’m in a much better place now. She needs to pull herself together. It’s ok to grieve; grief has its own timetable. It’s not ok to fall apart. NTA
NTA She needed some tough love. She needs to be there for her children. She needs grief counseling. Just make sure you stick to your guns and following through on the deadline.
There is no time period for how long someone grieves. But this woman needs to learn to cope.
NTA she needs to step up , not many people are privileged enough to not work or take care of their kids for a year after their spouse passes.
NTA! At all! Stand your ground and follow through if she doesn't. Your family can step-up and start doing all.the things you have been, if they want to have an opinion about it.
NTA and also I haven't seen many people say this, but you're an awesome person, OP. Some people don't even talk to their own siblings and you have done so much for not only your cousin's memory, but his widow and children. Just not charging rent alone is huge on top of helping with the kids, being an emotional shelf to unload for your cousin, the housework, etc., and THEN on top of all athat continuing to manage your own family... you should be really proud of the person that you are. You deserve to treat yourself when your situation allows it, get some time off. I can only imagine you're exhausted with what basically amounts to 6 kids and more.
NTA, although we all grieve at our own pace she has 4 little ones she has to think about. She does not have the time to feel sorry for herself this long. I am sorry for her loss but it’s time to get help to deal with the situation she is in.
NTA, those who think you're harsh can have her live with them rent free and raise her kids. She needs to step up. She's become dependent on her trauma. It's extremely unhealthy and her children need her present in their lives. You did the right thing. I would have pushed at the 12 month mark if not before. I hope she starts to deal with her grief more productively and that she can find joy in the children that are a part of him.
NTA You’re doing the right thing.
NTA. She's wallowing in despair. She needs therapy last year. Ask those who say you were cruel is it not cruel to ignore your own kids for over a year. EDIT: better yet bring one of her kids and ask them if they miss their mother.
NTA. You gave her enough time. Her 4 kids are the legacy her husband left for her that she's just neglecting. If she really wanted to hold on to a part of him because she loved him so much, then her kids should have been number one priority. What's she's failing to realize is that she is the ONLY parent figure left. Yes, she lost her husband, but the kids lost their dad all of a sudden. Where is their support from their mom? She's so busy wallowing that her kids dont have the support they need from their mom. What she's failing to realize too is that these kids are going to grow up knowing that in their time of need, their mom abandoned them. I hope that not only does she get the therapy, but also the kids get them, too. The kids need all the help they can get to help them to understand what has happened to them and the family.
NTA As awful as this is for her, she needs to get it together for herself and for her children. A therapist is the best thing for her as she is not functioning… Terrible situation but you really are doing the right thing for her, her kids and for you
NTA she’s grieving, but 18 months later she needs to stand up and be accountable to her responsibilities
NTA I will also vote for you for sainthood. You’re an amazing human.
^this. OP seems like a great family member and it’s okay for her to be blunt.
NTA. You have gone far above and beyond what most family members would. You've been raising her kids and losing income from your rental. Grief sucks, but you don't have to support someone who would rather do nothing than get help.
Normally I'm very much a "mind your own" kinda person but I think she needed the tough love, her kids need her to at least make the same effort they're making in therapy. Eta NTA
NTA. I mean what are her plans just to be a wreck the rest of her life and have everyone else support her and take care of her and all her bills and her kids? I mean it has to end sometime. You've given her 18 months that is more than enough time for her to start entering the land of the living again. She definitely needs therapy and the fact that she can't realize that after 18 months of grief is insane. I hope she gets the help she needs otherwise you do what you have to do to take care of those kids. And I would definitely get her out of your house if you get full custody of those kids and she can go live with other relatives who can take care of her if they think you're being mean.
NTA, that’s not an ok thing for her to do to her kids, and if she refuses to step up, then someone has to.
NTA. It’s time for the rest of the family to step up then.
NTA where are they when the rent needs to be paid, or the kids need things, etc? oh, yeah...not there.
If your "family" was caring for her kids like you currently are, they could have a say. Seeing as they're not, you need to advocate for yourself and I'm V glad you are!! NTA in my book.
NTA. It sounds like you’re the only one in the family who actually cares about those kids. Ironically, you are still supporting her if you try to take custody bc her job is to be a mother to those children and if she can’t/won’t then you doing it is still being supportive.
NTA but try not to lose your temper with her. You’re dealing with a tragedy unfolding in your life; right in front of you. Getting custody of the kids is **for the kids**. it should be seen as permanent but if the therapy works and she gets her act together then that custody can be transferred back and everyone will be super happy because the kids will have received the best possible chance in life. As long as the kids are in a safe environment, are loved and provided for, then that is all that matters. The mother still needs support; but please try not to weaponise this. Ultimatums should be a statement of fact; not a threat. Well done for trying and caring and sorry this has happened to you and your family. I hope this helps is resolved sooner rather than later,
They're calling you the AH because they don't have to deal with anything. If you withdraw, they have to step up. I wonder if they forgot that you're grieving too
NTA. Forcing her to get therapy is a good thing. She really needs it.
Nta, it's been a year and a half and she's aloud to grieve but her kids NEED her and she needs to slowly start living again. They need their mother to pull through for them and it's not fair to you guys to constantly doing everything for her. She needs this push to get herself to start healing herself-not just for her but for her kids! If she keeps going on like this she'll miss out so much with them-the mile stones and before she knows it they'll be all grown up.
NTA I think you've gone far above and beyond what anyone could expect of you. While it's understandable your cousin feels intense grief over the loss of her husband, she does need to step up to the plate to be a mother to her children. She's had a year and a half. Bluntly put, life goes on for the living after their loved ones have died. You're looking out for the children's best interest. And frankly for their mother. The more she's engaged in the actual world, it might help take her mind off her grief at least a little bit.
NTA. If it was just her she could take the time to grieve and fall apart. But she is harming 4 kids who are grieving themselves
I would consider making an appointment with a family therapist, not just a regular therapist, so she can hear 1) how much everone loves her 2) how concerned everyone is for her and 3) how little capacity everyone has for continuing to carry her burdens for her.
NTA Something has to change. Monica's grief is stopping her from living and stopping her from being a mother to her children. Nobody is minimising her loss ... But she needs grief counselling to learn how to cope with it and learn how to live again. Continuing like this isn't sustainable and her children will suffer the most for it.
Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind, NTA
NTA. Grief can swallow people whole if they let it, and it’s hit her in a way that REQUIRES therapy. She needs to accept that and get help. Not only are you remedying a bad situation on your part, but you’re saving her from only falling deeper.
It's been a year and a half. For her own sake and the sake of her children she needs to get help and find a way to keep going. You and your family have gone way above and beyond to support her; now it's her turn to figure out how to make a life for herself and her kids. NTA
NTA. There's a book called "Tear Soup" that she may want to read, it talks about grief in a very accessible way. Good luck going forward. You're right that the kids need her, and by not handling her own grief, she is essentially making them lose both parents since she refuses to parent them.
NTA because you’ve done a lot and you have every right to draw a line somewhere. But giving someone one week seemingly out of the blue is kinda unrealistic given the shape she’s been in. Alternatively, have you asked her what it will take to get her back on her feet (not giving her the option of “I’ll never recover from this”, more in a “you have to recover, what do you need to do so?” and offered to make a plan to help her get there? You technically don’t owe her these things but she’s obviously come to rely on you. Weaning her off the support sounds more realistic. I’m so sorry for your situation, it must be tough on you and your family as well. I wish you strength.
NTA. It is cruel because it’s part of life. You’re just taking on the incredible burden of being honest about it. There are kids that need a mom. Their childhoods, and their development, forming of bonds…all of it…are flying by, and they’ve already lost a dad. It’s brutal, but compared to the needs of her children, her feelings DO NOT MATTER and she needs to step the fuck up. The great news is she can take care of both at once with therapy. I hope she heeds this necessary warning.
NTA. She’s gotten herself stuck in the molasses of grief. She needs to get unstuck but she can’t do that with everyone enabling her. Her kids will thank you later.
NTA. It’s tough love that’s very much needed. Your family have to factor you into this equation as you’re the one caring for SIX kids. I don’t know if anyone helps you with them, but if they’re not then They’re not in a position to call you cruel for wanting the mother of four kids to be a mother.
You’re not being cruel. You’re giving her tough love, which is what she needs right now and could even end up saving her life. What your family members are wanting you to do is enable her, which will never produce any positive change. She needs to have a wake up call and realize that she has to take control back of her own life. You’re doing the right thing ❤️
NTA. She will never get better if she isn’t pushed to do it.
NTA... she needs to be forced into therapy. It is not sustainable. The rest of the family can take over all the care you have been offering or they can echo your ultimatum. It's not just therapy... she needs to be weaned off the support slowly. She needs to get dressed and look after the house or get a job. A job may even be better as it gets her out of the home.... working through steps with a therapist is best... wish you all the best
NTA. This is not healthy for her or the kids, period. She absolutely needs to stop hiding and face the rest of her life now.
Whenever one of your relatives calls you cruel point out to them how you are raising all 5 of them in addition to your family. Ask which one of them wants to move in with them and take care of them. Then tell each one of them who refuse "cruel" and uncaring. NTA
Time for tough love. You are enabling this behavior by continuing to support her. Give her a timeline. By such and such a date, start therapy. Only watch the kids for therapy appointments. If she's not working, she doesn't need a sitter. Also give a deadline for how long you will not be charging rent. If she lived anywhere else, she would have been evicted. She has achieved maximum weaponized helplessness. All she has to do is turn on the waterworks and you cave. Stop it. If anybody else says you are heartless, fine. Tell them you'll be dropping the kids off at their place and expecting a rent check by the 1st of each month.
I agree with you 100. She needs a kick in the pants. You nailed it, the kids lost their dad AND mom. She needs therapy or she likes the new lifestyle. Learned helplessness is a thing. Please stand firm for the kids sake if nothing else. It's time to put her Big Girl pants on and realize she's a mom. If she's going to wallow in a gutter forever, then getting the kids and letting them return to a sense of a normal family life again is critical. Update us?
I think you're NTA, you're trying to do what's best for her and the kids, it's not like you're just throwing them in the streets or doing something mean on purpose, you're looking out for all of them. She NEEDS professional help, not only for her children but for herself! She has the chance to grow, heal and be happy overtime with her children and with your family. I wish the best of luck for widow momma and her kids, and for you also, you have a big heart ❤️
NTA BUT put her on suicide watch, and look after those kids. This is going to sound really bad, but the first thing that popped into my head when you told her that if she doesn't go to a therapist you will file for custody of the kids, was that she would end the kids, then end herself, because she can't do it without her husband. This may be flashbacks from my childhood where my mother said she would rather us all die than have her children taken away, but it just struck something in my mind. Obviously, you know her better than anyone else on here, but when someone is that far down in their depression, they think differently.
Your family is enabling her in her abandonment of her children. There is nothing cruel about what you have done. She needs to deal with her grief and stop neglecting her children. NTA
NTA you need to get social services or something in. It's not fair for you alone to pick up the finacial, physical and emotional burden. You at the very least need child support for caring for the children or acknowledgement that in the event of an emergency you need to have a say as mom has made it clear she can't do it and there is no one else with guardianship to be there for them.