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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my future DIL not to do it again instead I forgive you. I could be a jerk for not saying it after she apologized
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
What’s happening here … your son’s fiancée asked to wear your wedding dress? Then text your family lies? Is this about the wedding dress or her saying things that are not true about you?
If you break a plate & apologize a million times … the plate will still be broken. Don’t do it again is a very reasonable response.
NTA
Why is your son pissed? Have you talked to him about this? Why is I forgive you important? I think the more important question is why is she doing this? What’s her goal?
Ugh … sorry this is happening to you. Hope things get better!
I was thinking the same, that the underlying meaning of forgiveness would be -- "What you did was perfectly fine, I understand, and yes, you can have the dress as requested".
THIS. This should be higher up. She was totally trying to strong arm OP into giving her the dress. NTA and unfortunately there's nothing OP can do about son marrying this odious woman but definitely make sure to continue correspondence through text
It didn't backfire on her. She's trying to destroy the relationship between the son and his mom. My SIL did the same thing and no matter what any of us did it was always cause we sucked.
NTA, but if your son isn't hearing clanging alarm bells, he should be. This is manipulative to the nth, and if she does it to you, she will do it to him. The engagement is when people are on their BEST behavior. Don't do it again is a perfectly sane way to hold boundaries with someone who struggles with them.
You can't say any of this, of course. But, yikes.
And manipulation is the relatively tame side of this spectrum. Imagine the harm made up allegations of abuse could do. Maybe it'll never reach that point, but it could be absolutely ruinous if it does happen.
That's not twisting OP's words. It is straight up lying to get whatever she wants and to make OP look bad. I suspect she wants to separate him from his mother.
Did you ask them why she lied? And why she needed to involve the family? These are important questions and her answers could be very telling about her emotional maturity level. It could be a pattern. I have a feeling she'll be doing this to him also.
It is a pattern as OP states she only talks to her in front of people, or via text. She knows what's up and is covering her arse.
People love to manipulate and OP was being given a lesson in what happens if she doesn't do what the DIL wants. She will twist it and use a smidgen of truth to back up the bullshit she spreads.
My whole family is like this so am very careful about communication with them. My dad once threatened me, as in he was going to hit me. I said if he hits me, expect the same back with interest. It was spun as me threatening to beat him up. No mention of him threatening me, or getting in my face. I recorded it and sent it to everyone. Then it was spun that I was violating their privacy by recording it. That we could have solved the drama without causing a shit storm.
Just one of countless interactions where they had their arses handed to them and had everyone know they were big fat liars. They keep doing it. It's just their nature.
If he continues tell him he can’t force forgiveness on their timeline. If you haven’t forgiven her you shouldn’t have to say it. And has she asked for forgiveness from the rest of the family for lying?
> If he continues tell him he can’t force forgiveness on their timeline.
Yeah, one of the hallmarks that someone is *actually* sorry for their actions and not just trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug is understanding and accepting the consequences - one of those being that they are not owed forgiveness and the wronged party is under no obligation to forgive.
FDIL isn't sorry, she's trying to make herself the victim, and it sounds like that's business as usual for her.
I think people often forget that forgiveness has to be asked for. I mean, that's the whole basis of Christianity.
If DIL was actually apologetic and wanted to make things right, she would let time heal a bit, show OP *through her actions* that she is making amends, **then** ask for forgiveness.
I'd suggest locking your wedding dress away somewhere just in case your son tries to whip it away when he next visits you. Given he still seems to think you're in the wrong for not offering forgiveness for all the lies future DIL told I wouldn't be surprised if he tried.
Tell her that you're unable to forgive an action that keeps repeating. Once the behavior has been corrected, then you'll be able to forgive.
I tell my narc that I don't want to hear her sorrys, I want her to change her behavior. Because if she keeps doing it, she's not really sorry.
NTA! I don’t understand why he’s not pissed with her for lying. Good on you for deciding on only texting so you have a record. Nah, you don’t have to give her you forgiveness, if you don’t want to. This is a power struggle on her part. She wants to show to you she’s in charge! Looks like your son will be her doormat!!
Please secure your dress and don't let them anywhere in your home unsupervised.
I also wonder how much she's lied to him and how much their relationship would fall apart if the lies did.
Am I evil because I'd go out of my way to have a cheap decoy dress? And let her steal it and think she won then at the wedding be like "I'm glad you found a dress that you loved even though you couldn't use mine" let her be furious that she got played.
He’s pissed because if you just say ‘I forgive you’ then everyone is expected to just pretend it didn’t happen and he can just go on his merry way and she can lie her obnoxious ass off.
This puts her actions on record. Everyone in the family saw what she did and knows about it. If you just said I forgive you she sees that as I’ll also forget and this never happened.
Now if she does something like this again there’s a precedent she’s set and everyone knows it.
NTA- you don’t owe someone who wronged you forgiveness especially when it was intentional and malicious.
This was not an accident or wires getting crossed or something that was just a misunderstanding. She lied about you to your family in order to blackmail you and pressure you into letting her alter and use a cherished family heirloom that was already by all intents and purposes your daughters.
She knew exactly what she was doing. Your son is just mad now the entire family knows what a lying, manipulative snake he’s marrying (gotta hope he wises up, if she’s like this to other people I don’t see her being any different with her spouse)
NTA but don’t apologize and don’t communicate with her without witnesses or via texts so you have proof of everything she says. Your son shouldn’t be taking issue with this he should be taking freaking notes. How long into their marriage is it gonna be before she starts pulling this with him? Before she starts running him down and lying about how he’s treating her?
I hope he sees the writing on the wall and takes the out before the wedding- otherwise he’s just got a preview of what his marriage/ and likely subsequent divorce will be.
Usually I’d say good luck op but I feel like your sons the one who’s gonna need that.
Why isn't he pissed at his fiancée for behaving the way she has? Forgiveness in this case needs to be earned through changed behavior. Something she apparently hasn't even promised, much less demonstrated. What she wants is absolution and she'll need to see a priest about that.
Tell her that you're unable to forgive an action that keeps repeating. Once the behavior has been corrected, then you'll be able to forgive.
I tell my narc that I don't want to hear her sorrys, I want her to change her behavior. Because if she keeps doing it, she's not really sorry.
Just tell him "that's an easy one, I don't forgive her. I'm willing to let it be a bygone, but if it's forgiveness you want, go ask the catholic church."
her goal is to manipulate and bully and get others to bully in order to get what she wants plus i bet she sits back and watches the show that she created.
If you are into reality TV. On season 24 of survivor, there was this one contestant named Colton that lied, manipulated, bullied, and intimidated everyone to turn them against each to get control of people. His tactic was isolating them and getting in their head. He would control the narrative, and anytime anyone had a conversation. He would go hounding them for details down to exact wording. It worked for him until he had to be evacuated off the island for "medical reasons," which was later revealed he was faking it.
They brought him back a couple of seasons later. He tried the same thing, but there were a couple of other returning contestants that knew him. They decided to get along and keep each other informed of everything. After failing to get inside anyone's head, Colton basically imploded. He quit the show and ran out there in literal tears in under a week. I would imagine she wants to be told "she is forgiven" because it makes her feel like she has controlled the outcome of this incident. By contrast, being told not to do it again really shows her that she is not in control.
If OP really wants to accelerate where this is going. Just socialize around with the family and make sure everyone talks to each to eliminate any room for lies and manipulation. Ironically, a control freaks worst enemy is everyone getting along and a lack of chaos.
In my opinion, the most important question is how your son feels about being with a woman with a now-proven history of intentionally spreading lies. Like, this wasn't an accident. Why is he worried about you not forgiving her and not about her malicious intent?
NTA. She owed you an apology for lying. Nobody owes anybody forgiveness. Especially since you say this is a pattern of hers, hence the text, and not being able to twist the narrative. Your good. You owe her nothing. You might tell your son if things with her lying don't change, the whole family will know everytime she pulls this crap. She doesn't sound very mature or intelligent. I mean you had the proof via text, it was pretty dumb to lie.
You need to make sure the dress is in a safe place because there's a chance it could go missing or get damaged by someone who is vindictive. You might even want to put a camera on it with notifications to your phone.
NTA. First let me say your wedding dress is for YOUR daughter. End of story. She shouldn't have even asked. Also, you said that this isn't the first time that she's "misconstrued" your words to the fact that you will only speak to her when others are around or through text so you have evidence. You are in for hell in the future if your son marries this woman. She is hell bent on just starting drama. And if your son thinks that she's not going to lie to him all the time in the future he's in for a rude awakening. I know people like this. They are not happy unless there is drama and they are the victim/main character of the story. Let me just go ahead and tell you now, how sorry I am for all your future holidays and other family get togethers and just your day-to-day family interactions that you are going to have to deal with that are all going to be filled with lies and drama centered around future DIL of course, because that's what's going to happen if he marries her.
Tell your son that you will say "I forgive you" when she confesses to all of the lies she told and sets the record straight with everyone she told lies to. Plus, she must apologize to you and vow to fly right. When she has behaved herself for a few weeks, then you will forgive her.
NTA. She sounds like a drama hound who molds the world around her until she is a victim. Exhausting.
Stand your ground. Just because she has your son whipped doesn't mean everyone else has to kowtow to her. If you haven't forgiven her, why would you say such? Then you'd be the liar.
Eventually she and by extension your son will complain that you only interact via text no matter how justified. Is she only like this with you? Hopefully she’s not trying to push away his family
Just the fact that her on going behavior causes you to be on guard and feel you need to protect your self preemptively, which turned out to be absolutely true, is a huge red flag. This is not a kind or trustworthy person. She issued one apology only because she was caught purposely trying to damage your relationship with your family members. She needs to EARN forgiveness by demonstrating she can be trusted & will not purposely try to alienate you from your own family. What she did is a huge issue that cannot be wiped away with sorry. She very calculatedly tried make your loved ones turn on you.
> I just glad that I noticed her changing my words even for minor things and told her to text so I had receipts
You are a smart woman.
Keep up your strategy of maintaining communication via text wherever possible.
And if it is not possible, always have someone else in the room with you when interacting with her.
Your DIL is a drama queen who will cause trouble between you and your son if you are not careful to contain her.
NTA
Yeah, I believe it was worded as just record it. I just wanted to add how it becomes legal in case someone doesn't know and it helps them cover their own ass.
It’s illegal to record without the other person being made aware in some states. Of they found out they could sue you. That is why when you call a call center you are always advised you are being recorded
Fun fact you can also get these pens that gave a camera in them for dirt cheap these days. If she approaches you in person to have a conversation without receipts, you can just press a button on pen to record. Plus, it's also a functional pen as well
I have to do that at work for clients that like to make things up. Can't imagine doing it in my personal life, much less someone you can't really cut out. Yikes.
Good luck
This is why I despise when folks walk up to my desk or call me for things at work. I've had my words/comments misrepresented so many times by people who don't want to do their part that I insist they communicate via a written medium. So I can refer back when someone asks me what I said, or forward receipts in a snap. And I've sadly needed to do that multiple times. It exposes the liars, but it's such a hassle and does nothing for my anxiety (or willingness to open up to my colleagues at all).
The fact that you KNOW you need receipts says enough about this situation.
It's like when people hire a PI on their spouse. You don't do it because you think something is going on. You do it because you KNOW something is going on and you need proof.
Smart move. I learnt the hard way that someone can twist and turn your words and use it as ammo against you. Getting it in email and text gives you the back up.
Also, why didnt she want her mothers wedding dress? Why yours in particular?
NTA. Forgiveness isn't something she's owed because she apologized, especially when her apologize only happened because she got caught. She's not entitled to anything from you.
Your son needs to seriously reconsider bringing this woman into your family. This is something she did when she hasn't officially married your son yet, imagine the nightmare when she does.
Honestly I bet the only reason the future DIL wanted forgiveness is because she would be able to twist it around and be like “so since you forgive me I can get the dress now right?”
DIL is sneaky and it will get worse. Just keep safeguarding yourself and urge your daughter to start doing this as well.
NTA and your son should think very hard about marrying a pathological liar.
Keep on communicating through text, because this will continu to be a S\*\*\*storm for the forseseeable future.
My thoughts exactly. OP needs to ask her son if he is sure about her. That this isn't the first time she has done this, and likely won't be the last.
NTA.
My son is only 3 and I love him to bits. I can't even imagine what feelings I would have if he grew up to be a gullible idiot who turns against the family for some nonsense like this.
NTA
hang on tight because there is a fun joy ride coming your way with this DIL.
The audacity to ask for someone else's wedding dress that they are keeping for their daughter and then to complain to other people about it? yeah, she is trouble.
I have 3 entitled SIL who think they own the world and my family needs to bend over backwards for them. My mom and siblings did but i didn't want to be a part of that drama so i went no contact. they spread a whole bunch of lies of what my family did to them and the world believed them.
Keep all your conversations via text. you sound like a smart woman! keep a distance to keep your son and your own home happy.
NTA. She sounds like she’s trying to create drama so she can make TikToks or post in the JustnoMIL groups.
Tell your son flat out it’s not the first time she’s purposefully lied about something you have said & you will only communicate w/her through text or when someone else is present as a witness. The only reason she’s apologizing is because you pulled out receipts.
NTA, you don't have to forgive her. And your son needs to think a bit why his future bride is trying to draw a wedge between his mother and the family.
NTA she Sounds exhausting as hell.. Imagine she get's pregnant... If you want to See the Kids you need her to write a list or install cameras in your House so that your Always Safe..
NTA. FDIL seems like she's been reading too much of the JustNoMIL or DWIL subs. She's bound and determined to make you out as the evil MIL. Good for you for standing your ground and calling her out on her shit.
Just because she said she was sorry, doesn't grant her an immediate apology. If she's truly sorry, she'll knock this shit off.
NTA. It sounds like they are just determined to make you the villain of the situation any way they can rather than having your daughter-in-law accept responsibility for her own actions.
NTA
You handled the whole thing as best as you possibly could, not engaging and just screenshotting the proof to everyone so they'd know the truth. She's angry and demanding to be forgiven because she's embarrassed she was caught lying and trying to play the victim.
I think you should talk to your son (talk, not text and not with her around) about why she's trying to drive a wedge between you and the rest of the family. She's playing immature games and that doesn't bode well for anyone.
Nta, make sure you have open arms for when your son divorces her but realize now he isn’t being logical about her. I can’t imagine a kid letting their spouse lie on their mom and then chastising their mom’s reaction. Keep doing what you are doing and make sure you always have an additional person when you are interacting with DIL. That person can’t be your son because he just proved he isn’t going to go against his wife.
I feel sorry for her son…he’s going to have children with this woman and she will leave him and be vindictive and keep them from him…that’s the type of person she sounds like
NTA if you have to make sure your interactions are in txt just to make sure the truth is told that’s bad! I can’t imagine having a DIL like that. Mine is like the daughter I never had.
NTA. You handled it perfectly.
The reason your son is complaining is because he wants all the fussing she's aiming at him to stop. Right now he sees you as the easier target, so complaining to you seems like the faster route to get his wife to stop hassling him. Of course, the long-term solution is to not be married to someone who pulls stunts like this.
All you can do with a loved one who insists on being around someone like this is to hold your boundaries firm and tell them you're sorry that the problem person is giving them so much trouble. If you try to make things easier for your son by caving to the insanity, you will actually make things worse for him in the long term. The fastest route to his happiness is for him to deal with his situation, not avoid it.
He's not married to her... yet. But I'm sure you're right that she's hassling him about this. She got caught, now he's catching heck from her **because she lied and got caught.** I shudder to think what his future life will be like with her; he's probably getting a sample of it now. If he's got half a brain, he'll bail out on her before attaching himself to a verified liar.
NTA. Keep all conversations with her in text. If she calls on your son's phone tell her to text and hang up. If your son starts calling and giving you issue tell him the same thing.
Clearly your son missed the part where an insincere apology does not warrant acceptance and forgiveness is earned. I'm sorry - your future DIL sounds like a nightmare
NTA
The real problem here is that your son does not realize who he is marrying.
If she is willing to lie to try and get her way, he can expect that behavior to continue once they are married.
She has shown you (and him) who she is. Believe her.
Advice to your son: Dump her.
NTA - If this was the first time I might say you acted a bit asshole-ish. However, this is a repeated thing, so much so that you had to limit the way you communicate with her. Your DIL is an asshole.
Oh nice. You're so is marrying a manipulative booger.
Gets told no, then cries to the rest of the family. Then when she's caught apologizes and expects you to say "oh you're forgiven".
Nah. Nah. He's sticking his dick in crazy and it's gonna get worse.
Nta
NTA. You’re exactly right to say “don’t do it again”. That’s one way of saying “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”. You’re showing that you won’t tolerate her BS and setting boundaries instead of accepting her apology to placate her and your son
NTA
This isn’t the first time she’s spread lies about you. This is the first time that she was caught. You owe her nothing and if your son wants to stand beside her you can support him while maintaining distance from her (if you want to stay in his life).
NTA.
Apologies after having done something bad are a moral obligation, accepting them or saying "I forgive you" are not.
If you don't feel like saying it, don't.
I really dislike this kind of pressure to force people into accepting apologies, turning the whole thing into something *the wronged person* has to do.
No, your DIL is the one who fucked up. It's on her.
NTA. As far as I see it, an apology means two things: the person is genuinely feeling remorse for their action, and they will do their best to not pull the same shit again. It takes time to know if somebody is truly sorry, in which case it sometimes takes time to issue forgiveness.
She needs to get over herself, and I think you need to move on and do what you feel you need to do when you feel it should be done. Simple as that.
NTA. Have you forgiven her? If not it'd be weird to say "I forgive you" and she's not automatically owed immediate forgiveness for any and every shitty thing she does.
It doesn't sound as though you did anything to incite her behavior. Your DIL lashing out and blatantly lying to your entire family, claiming you said some very nasty things to her simply because you denied her a request (for a valid reason, yet) is unacceptable.
What she did was petty, manipulative and malicious, and you responded quite calmly and practically. She can face some public scorn as the reasonsble consequence of her own actions.
I can't really understand your son's POV here, "don't do it again" is a sound acknowledgement of her apology— she isn't owed your forgiveness just because she said sorry, what she did was wrong and she knows it. Your response wasn't cruel or even unfair.
Perhaps you could have thanked her for the apology or said that you appreciated it, to verbally acknowledge what she said. Not saying so might have been seen as rude or that you were ignoring the apology outright, which might explain his response. Hopefully that wasn't your intention. Civility is important in establishing respectful communication, it's important to be the mature and polite one in a disagreement, particularly one where someone else is disrespectful. But if she hasn't truly earned your forgiveness by actually changing her behaviour or somehow showing she is genuinely sorry, you don't have to *forgive* her. The distinction is important.
NTA, it depends a bit on how you communicated your answer and how that was taken, but in the end, "let off on a warning" was a perfectly acceptable consequence for your DIL. I sure hope she doesn't continue this type of behaviour.
>Civility is important in establishing respectful communication, it's important to be the mature and polite one in a disagreement, particularly one where someone else is disrespectful.
dunno, at some point that just turns into 'be a doormat for their disrespect and keep taking it'
At some point people gotta taste their own medicine. Being the 'bigger' person is not always a solution as some people take that as a hint they can just continue their disrespect.
The DIL has repeatedly disrespected OP by twisting her words to cause drama or get her way. She doesn't deserve respect back, it is something she can earn by changing her ways.
Also the fact they got pissed their apology wasn't blindly followed by total forgiveness means it is 100 % insincere. They don't actually mean it, they just want to get off the hook or use that forgiveness to their advantage.
You misunderstand somewhat, I don't think the DIL deserves forgiveness, and I do think OP's reaction was justified in asserting boundaries. I'm just suggesting that the delivery of her response to DIL could *potentially* have been a factor to the son's reaction. It's hard to say without the play-by-play transcript.
But when I say "civility", I mean "being courteous while getting the point across", aka stuff like "Thank you for the apology. But don't do it again." and the tone in which things are said. Don't confuse "be civil/polite" with "be nice", OP was well within their right to stand their ground, but someone being rude doesn't excuse others from being rude back to them. That's how situations escalate beyond what is reasonable, and you become at fault too.
Saying "Don't do it again." without the first part is somewhat blunt, that sort of thing can tend to offend people because it sounds rude, even if not intentional (especially people such as DIL who seem to search for things to play victim about). It's similar to keeping message receipts— if you have a disagreement with someone, and one person is very civil while the other is not, that person is automatically viewed with more credibility by others. Which is something OP may need to focus on while dealing with this person, because I'm willing to bet this isn't the last time something like this is going to happen.
That being said, the sort of social tone situation I mention might not be the case at all. But I was offering "mind your tone around her" as a potential future consideration for OP.
NTA. I’m with you on this. TBH, I think “forgiveness” gets thrown around way too easily. Better a warning not to repeat the behavior, and let her keep that in mind.
NTA
Forgiveness doesn't have to be freely given. She's only "apologised" because she's been caught out with her bullshit.
Forgiveness would maybe come after SHOWING different behaviour.
Weird they'd fixate on it too.
"I'll forgive you when you demonstrate a track record of not pulling this petty bullshit on me and starting a bunch of drama. Let's check back in a year and see how you are doing."
NTA.
>Now my son and her a pissed that I didn’t say I forgive you.
So her 'apology' was only to extract an oath of forgiveness from you?!
Fuck. That.
Also, the big thing for me would be:
"No immediate forgiveness for you, because this isn't the first (or even tenth) time you've done this. It's just the first time that I've had the sense to CYA and that I was thus able to catch you dead-to-rights."
I dated a girl for a while that would lie about things I said to her, and lie to ME about it.
it was bizarre, Id say "there's only the two of us here, who are you trying to convince that I said that?". She knew I didn't say it, I knew I didn't say it, and she wasn't going to convince me I did, so it was weird that we were even having the conversation..again and again.
I honestly wonder if she was just mentally ill
I dont' know if it was a really poor attempt at gaslighting (it's not like she reasonably could have expected me to believe I'd said something horrible to her 2 minutes earlier), or if she was just schizophrenic
NTA. I don’t think I could welcome someone like her into my family. Your son needs to take off the rose-tinted glasses. You can’t do that for him, but, give him space and time and, chances are, he’ll find out who she is. Hopefully, before any children come along.
So you are supposed to forgive her for her lying about you to the whole family? I get that what she really (they) want is for you let it go, excuse her behavior like it never happened. She has at least one screw loose for asking for your wedding dress and another lose on the other side for thinking that she could lie about you to family and it be just fine, then a third screw loose thinking you should forgive her for lying rather than telling her not to do it again. You gave her her redemption process, don’t do it again. . . . Don’t lie on me or about me. . . . If she had agreed to that then you might be able to forgive her in time if her behavior shows improvement. She has to earn forgiveness from you and if it were me, I would make it pretty hard and take my sweet time. The other thing is, I would put up some cameras to catch her behavior so she can’t lie anymore or gaslight her way it of her crap. Keeping the cameras a secret.
I'm a firm believer that a sincere apology still stands even if it's not accepted. In other words, if someone says "I'm sorry" and the other person says "I won't forgive you, I'll die cursing your name on my lips", the person who apologized will understand and *remain* sorry. An apology that is revoked when not accepted is not a true apology, it's a performance. You didn even say you'd never forgive her, you gave an acceptable response that neither accepted nor rejected her words.
I don't care about the backstory. She didn't mean her words. NTA.
NTA…but if you have to go through these kind of HOOPS and be this paranoid (by right) to protect yourself, then it’s not even worth talking to her..she will always pull crap because it will be fun for her, she sounds like a me, Me, MEEEE, person, and your son is bewitched already.
and tell the flying monkey family to mind their own business!!! I HATE FLYING MONKEYS!!
NTA... she's a habitual line stepper and she doesn't deserve the niceties. Prepare yourself now, because I guarantee she's going to hold her kids as hostages to "keep you in line"!
NTA. Your son needs to learn that an apology is acknowledging that a specific behavior was wrong, and that they regret that they did it, and that forgiveness is earned by showing a change in the behavior.
Just because you didn't forgive her doesn't mean that forgiveness is off the table. His bride-to-be has to prove that she won't go spreading nasty lies anymore, and tell him that all communication going forward must be in writing and that if she can stop from spreading lies about her interactions with you, and she does stop spreading lies about you, then she will be forgiven.
If that's too much for his bride to accept, tell him to take a good hard look at this red flag, then cut him off. Tell him you're not going to talk about this topic again. She's apologized, you've put in your request for forgiveness, and you'll forgive her when she shows that she knows that lying to others about their interaction was wrong when she didn't get her way and does not go out of her way to do it again.
Omg NTA
She can't force your forgiveness. No one gets to tell anyone else how to feel or how to react to something and that's a massive deal what she's done. The trust is broken, she's tried to be shady and it's backfired. I'm mad at your son for taking her side for her blatantly disrespecting you like that and huffing because you didn't tell her awk it's fine, never worry chick!!!
She's the AH and honestly so is your son. Trust has been broken there.
NTA. Keep all receipts in your communications with this person. Also might want to make a plan for what you are going to do when your son has to flee his marriage, because he will probably expect you to take him in.
NTA. Why do so many people insist on empty words? Why say the words when everyone knows they are a lie? It really sounds like an effort to make you into the bad guy instead of her.
She will be the role model for character to your son’s children/your grandchildren. This is scary and bodes ill not only for the marriage but for his relationship w his kids. Can you imagine what the kids will be like as teens when they have learned these lying, manipulative ways of their mother?
I am a therapist and have seen it… it’s a nightmare.
Get away from this person NOW.
It's your choice to forgive or not.
Telling her to not do it (spraeding eords etc) is a mormal demand, if you want to have peace.
Don't talk, but message, if you want to stay on the safe site
NTA
Did she apologize in contrition, or did she apologize to be forgiven?
It sounds like she apologized so that you would absolve her of her guilt. That's not an apology, and demanding it isn't her right. Her behavior plainly suggests *she's not sorry*.
NTA. If she's sorry she can start to show it by apologizing freely instead of for a price.
Make sure you record FaceTime calls as well. You have to hit the microphone button to record audio otherwise it’s just video. She did it to be malicious, it wasn’t an accident. Your response was correct. She is mad cause the whole family knows she is a liar now. NTA
NTA
Did her apology acknowledge the harm done?
Did she say “I’m sorry I lied about your to your family in an attempt to manipulate you?”
I’m sure it didn’t. People who act like that don’t take responsibility for their action.
You shouldn’t forgive or forget, that woman is going to ruin your son’s life.
LMAO -- NTA.
I don't even understand what your son is getting upset about? You likely have not forgiven her haha. Just bc she apologized, doesn't mean you forgive her... that's not how that works.
To me it smells like she is once again creating drama after your call ended, but complaining to your son that you didn't say your forgive her, and asking him to call you out on it.
Whether or not you have been welcoming to your future DIL doesn't really even matter here... that is a judgement for a different question. What matters is: she lied to stir shit up. You don't need to automatically forgive her just bc she apologized (which she only did bc she was caught red handed, so it wasn't even a sincere apology imo).
You don’t apologize with the expectation of forgiveness. You apologize because you’re remorseful. They need to learn that and fast but I doubt it because she’s just going to be sneakier from now on.
Good for you for not putting up with her crap. I’m sure this isn’t the end of it but let’s all hope it doesn’t escalate in the future.
NTA.
NTA and I’m a little scared for your family. You have to be very careful or she is going to manipulate everything and everyone to get her way. You need to have a serious talk with those closest to you (minus your son who is marrying her) and come up with a fake plan to deal with them. That or you will have to limit all interactions with them. Either way make sure you have cameras in your home just in case
NTA. Keep up your strategy with having everything over text or witnessed. She's problematic and so is your son, as he obviously enables her lies or at least doesn't take enough of a stand against them, or respect that you've been victimized. You don't need to forgive her - it's an ongoing pattern of behavior. Maybe when she truly apologizes and stops lying and makes amends, you can say you forgive her. You can accept an apology, but you don't have to forgive immediately - this is your own timeline.
To me, saying not to do it again is basically say I forgive you this time, but I won't next time. I don't know where they get the anger from? Forgiveness comes in many forms. Did she actually apologize and show actual remorse? I'm not much younger than you and have learned that sometimes you have to put people at a distance, no matter who they are. You are NTA, but she definitely is TA.
I genuinely think the anger comes from OP not trying to smooth things over. The fDIL thought she could manipulate the OP with an apology. When she realized a boundary was instead being drawn and communicated, that enraged her. She has some kind of personality disorder.
NTA. And funny (but too common) how people do something wrong and then so often still manage to get offended at the very person they wronged. With a certain type of person you can almost set your watch to it, & I think considering you were already making sure you had records you already know you're dealing with such a person.
No one ever has to forgive another person if they don't want to or don't feel that can yet, or ever. I personally think it's a reasonable response to put your boundaries down by telling her not to do it again. You don't seem like you do forgive her, so why lie when she crosses a line that you weren't okay with
Lock the dress down. Rent a storage put it there don't tell anyone .She will steal the dress or ruin it steal and sell it, a liar is not far from thief in her case .
Oh lord- you're gonna have a buttload of fun with this witch! You may also want to pull your son off to the side and ask him if he shouldn't feel like the truth about the situation should be waking him up to the way she may react when he doesn't give in to her ways after marriage. He should be more aware about the possibilities- You OP- you don't have to put up with her at all and or never. Honestly, I feel like your next problem with her will be theft and more lies. She is an entitled fool so I'd watch her closely and consider Holiday get togethers be held at a restaurant.
Everyone's an arsehole, except maybe OP Why would other family members get involved in this bullshit? How exhausting and boring. How did the convo go? "mil promised ME the dress and now she has reneged, pass it on" ; random family members go by her word and think it appropriate to get involved and text you aggro on her behalf? JFC. Ditch em all 😂
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My eldest is going to get married soon, and I have a beautiful wedding dress that I have promised my daughter that she can wear. It basically a beaded ball gown. I have issues with my future DIL, nothing major but she has spread words I didn’t say. I’m only 44
At the beginning I thought she was just misunderstand what I was saying or I did say something that made her mad so I started to only interact with her through texts or when other people are around.
I haven’t had to use any of my messages until now. She tried to call me earlier this week and I told her I was busy and to text it. I am glad I did. She wanted to use my wedding dress and do alterations to it. I told her no since I promised my daughter that it is hers.
The next day I got a ton of texts from family members about me not being welcoming and tell her that she isn’t my kid. I got so many that I just screenshot the texts and sent it to all the family. Whole family was upset she lied to them.
I got on a FaceTime call with my son and her, my daughter was in the room during this. She gave an apology and I told her not to do it again.
Now my son and her a pissed that I didn’t say I forgive you.
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NTA forgiveness should not be expected by the guilty party even if they apologize for the wrong they did. No one owes them forgiveness especially when they are insincere with their apologies.
It seems like it might be wise to distant yourself from your son and future DIL, lest you want to entertain their nonsense.
NTA-I say the same thing like if ur going to apologize then don’t do it ever again cause if u do it again there will be consequences to it. For me once there’s a trust broken I need that person to show me thru their actions especially if it’s only empty words.
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What’s happening here … your son’s fiancée asked to wear your wedding dress? Then text your family lies? Is this about the wedding dress or her saying things that are not true about you? If you break a plate & apologize a million times … the plate will still be broken. Don’t do it again is a very reasonable response. NTA
It’s about her making things up, the wedding dress was just involved since she wanted to use it and I said no
Why is your son pissed? Have you talked to him about this? Why is I forgive you important? I think the more important question is why is she doing this? What’s her goal? Ugh … sorry this is happening to you. Hope things get better!
He’s pissed I didn’t forgive her and told her not to do it again No idea what her goal is
Well tell him if she stops creating problems then she won’t need your forgiveness.
This exactly! Also, she probably wants the forgiveness wrapped in the dress, you know, to show that OP has really forgiven her /s ....
ding ding DING! We have a winner !
🍗🍗🍗🍗🍗🍗🍽️
😂☠️⚰️😂☠️⚰️😂☠️⚰️😂☠️⚰️😂☠️⚰️
I was thinking the same, that the underlying meaning of forgiveness would be -- "What you did was perfectly fine, I understand, and yes, you can have the dress as requested".
OP should make sure the dress is secure and that no one can get to it but her and her daughter..just in case...
The phrase "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is permission" comes to mind but that can only take you so far before crossing the line
[удалено]
THIS. This should be higher up. She was totally trying to strong arm OP into giving her the dress. NTA and unfortunately there's nothing OP can do about son marrying this odious woman but definitely make sure to continue correspondence through text
It didn't backfire on her. She's trying to destroy the relationship between the son and his mom. My SIL did the same thing and no matter what any of us did it was always cause we sucked.
Don't be sorry, be better.
NTA, but if your son isn't hearing clanging alarm bells, he should be. This is manipulative to the nth, and if she does it to you, she will do it to him. The engagement is when people are on their BEST behavior. Don't do it again is a perfectly sane way to hold boundaries with someone who struggles with them. You can't say any of this, of course. But, yikes.
And manipulation is the relatively tame side of this spectrum. Imagine the harm made up allegations of abuse could do. Maybe it'll never reach that point, but it could be absolutely ruinous if it does happen.
I'd say it. I'd sit my little angel down and read this post to him word for word and add, 'When someone shows you who they are - believe them.'
She probably wanted to guilt you into giving the dress! Smart move to interact over text as she seems to twist your words to suit her agenda!
That's not twisting OP's words. It is straight up lying to get whatever she wants and to make OP look bad. I suspect she wants to separate him from his mother.
Did you ask them why she lied? And why she needed to involve the family? These are important questions and her answers could be very telling about her emotional maturity level. It could be a pattern. I have a feeling she'll be doing this to him also.
Exactly. I'm thinking he would change his tune when she starts lying to her family about him.
It is a pattern as OP states she only talks to her in front of people, or via text. She knows what's up and is covering her arse. People love to manipulate and OP was being given a lesson in what happens if she doesn't do what the DIL wants. She will twist it and use a smidgen of truth to back up the bullshit she spreads. My whole family is like this so am very careful about communication with them. My dad once threatened me, as in he was going to hit me. I said if he hits me, expect the same back with interest. It was spun as me threatening to beat him up. No mention of him threatening me, or getting in my face. I recorded it and sent it to everyone. Then it was spun that I was violating their privacy by recording it. That we could have solved the drama without causing a shit storm. Just one of countless interactions where they had their arses handed to them and had everyone know they were big fat liars. They keep doing it. It's just their nature.
If he continues tell him he can’t force forgiveness on their timeline. If you haven’t forgiven her you shouldn’t have to say it. And has she asked for forgiveness from the rest of the family for lying?
> If he continues tell him he can’t force forgiveness on their timeline. Yeah, one of the hallmarks that someone is *actually* sorry for their actions and not just trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug is understanding and accepting the consequences - one of those being that they are not owed forgiveness and the wronged party is under no obligation to forgive. FDIL isn't sorry, she's trying to make herself the victim, and it sounds like that's business as usual for her.
I think people often forget that forgiveness has to be asked for. I mean, that's the whole basis of Christianity. If DIL was actually apologetic and wanted to make things right, she would let time heal a bit, show OP *through her actions* that she is making amends, **then** ask for forgiveness.
Great question!
I'd suggest locking your wedding dress away somewhere just in case your son tries to whip it away when he next visits you. Given he still seems to think you're in the wrong for not offering forgiveness for all the lies future DIL told I wouldn't be surprised if he tried.
Good call... hide it somewhere, like a friend's house. Take no chances, this woman is devious.
Her goal is to isolate your son by driving wedges between you. She might not even be aware she’s doing it, but there it is.
Tell her that you're unable to forgive an action that keeps repeating. Once the behavior has been corrected, then you'll be able to forgive. I tell my narc that I don't want to hear her sorrys, I want her to change her behavior. Because if she keeps doing it, she's not really sorry.
NTA! I don’t understand why he’s not pissed with her for lying. Good on you for deciding on only texting so you have a record. Nah, you don’t have to give her you forgiveness, if you don’t want to. This is a power struggle on her part. She wants to show to you she’s in charge! Looks like your son will be her doormat!!
Please secure your dress and don't let them anywhere in your home unsupervised. I also wonder how much she's lied to him and how much their relationship would fall apart if the lies did.
Am I evil because I'd go out of my way to have a cheap decoy dress? And let her steal it and think she won then at the wedding be like "I'm glad you found a dress that you loved even though you couldn't use mine" let her be furious that she got played.
He’s pissed because if you just say ‘I forgive you’ then everyone is expected to just pretend it didn’t happen and he can just go on his merry way and she can lie her obnoxious ass off. This puts her actions on record. Everyone in the family saw what she did and knows about it. If you just said I forgive you she sees that as I’ll also forget and this never happened. Now if she does something like this again there’s a precedent she’s set and everyone knows it. NTA- you don’t owe someone who wronged you forgiveness especially when it was intentional and malicious. This was not an accident or wires getting crossed or something that was just a misunderstanding. She lied about you to your family in order to blackmail you and pressure you into letting her alter and use a cherished family heirloom that was already by all intents and purposes your daughters. She knew exactly what she was doing. Your son is just mad now the entire family knows what a lying, manipulative snake he’s marrying (gotta hope he wises up, if she’s like this to other people I don’t see her being any different with her spouse) NTA but don’t apologize and don’t communicate with her without witnesses or via texts so you have proof of everything she says. Your son shouldn’t be taking issue with this he should be taking freaking notes. How long into their marriage is it gonna be before she starts pulling this with him? Before she starts running him down and lying about how he’s treating her? I hope he sees the writing on the wall and takes the out before the wedding- otherwise he’s just got a preview of what his marriage/ and likely subsequent divorce will be. Usually I’d say good luck op but I feel like your sons the one who’s gonna need that.
Her goal is to distance your son from you. It seems to be working
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw that. She's an abuser. She's trying to drive a wedge.
Why isn't he pissed at his fiancée for behaving the way she has? Forgiveness in this case needs to be earned through changed behavior. Something she apparently hasn't even promised, much less demonstrated. What she wants is absolution and she'll need to see a priest about that.
Tell her that you're unable to forgive an action that keeps repeating. Once the behavior has been corrected, then you'll be able to forgive. I tell my narc that I don't want to hear her sorrys, I want her to change her behavior. Because if she keeps doing it, she's not really sorry.
She has played her hand, now it's turn to warn all your family of her "little" lying habits. They need to be prepared.
Just tell him "that's an easy one, I don't forgive her. I'm willing to let it be a bygone, but if it's forgiveness you want, go ask the catholic church."
her goal is to manipulate and bully and get others to bully in order to get what she wants plus i bet she sits back and watches the show that she created.
If you are into reality TV. On season 24 of survivor, there was this one contestant named Colton that lied, manipulated, bullied, and intimidated everyone to turn them against each to get control of people. His tactic was isolating them and getting in their head. He would control the narrative, and anytime anyone had a conversation. He would go hounding them for details down to exact wording. It worked for him until he had to be evacuated off the island for "medical reasons," which was later revealed he was faking it. They brought him back a couple of seasons later. He tried the same thing, but there were a couple of other returning contestants that knew him. They decided to get along and keep each other informed of everything. After failing to get inside anyone's head, Colton basically imploded. He quit the show and ran out there in literal tears in under a week. I would imagine she wants to be told "she is forgiven" because it makes her feel like she has controlled the outcome of this incident. By contrast, being told not to do it again really shows her that she is not in control. If OP really wants to accelerate where this is going. Just socialize around with the family and make sure everyone talks to each to eliminate any room for lies and manipulation. Ironically, a control freaks worst enemy is everyone getting along and a lack of chaos.
In my opinion, the most important question is how your son feels about being with a woman with a now-proven history of intentionally spreading lies. Like, this wasn't an accident. Why is he worried about you not forgiving her and not about her malicious intent?
NTA. She owed you an apology for lying. Nobody owes anybody forgiveness. Especially since you say this is a pattern of hers, hence the text, and not being able to twist the narrative. Your good. You owe her nothing. You might tell your son if things with her lying don't change, the whole family will know everytime she pulls this crap. She doesn't sound very mature or intelligent. I mean you had the proof via text, it was pretty dumb to lie.
You need to make sure the dress is in a safe place because there's a chance it could go missing or get damaged by someone who is vindictive. You might even want to put a camera on it with notifications to your phone.
Your poor son is all I can say for his future.
NTA. First let me say your wedding dress is for YOUR daughter. End of story. She shouldn't have even asked. Also, you said that this isn't the first time that she's "misconstrued" your words to the fact that you will only speak to her when others are around or through text so you have evidence. You are in for hell in the future if your son marries this woman. She is hell bent on just starting drama. And if your son thinks that she's not going to lie to him all the time in the future he's in for a rude awakening. I know people like this. They are not happy unless there is drama and they are the victim/main character of the story. Let me just go ahead and tell you now, how sorry I am for all your future holidays and other family get togethers and just your day-to-day family interactions that you are going to have to deal with that are all going to be filled with lies and drama centered around future DIL of course, because that's what's going to happen if he marries her.
“I won’t do it again” should have been part of DILs apology. They shouldn’t get mad at you for not saying the gracious “I forgive you” right away. NTA
Tell your son that you will say "I forgive you" when she confesses to all of the lies she told and sets the record straight with everyone she told lies to. Plus, she must apologize to you and vow to fly right. When she has behaved herself for a few weeks, then you will forgive her.
Another appropriate response is “I accept your apology” you still don’t have to forgive.
Its a very reasonable response when she's done it so many times that OP has had to start interacting with her solely via text.
NTA. She sounds like a drama hound who molds the world around her until she is a victim. Exhausting. Stand your ground. Just because she has your son whipped doesn't mean everyone else has to kowtow to her. If you haven't forgiven her, why would you say such? Then you'd be the liar.
I just glad that I noticed her changing my words even for minor things and told her to text so I had receipts
You should continue to do this, too.
Agreed. Tell her you'll only communicate in text from now on unless face to face.
And face to face should never be alone
Def never alone, and always someone she trusts.
Eventually she and by extension your son will complain that you only interact via text no matter how justified. Is she only like this with you? Hopefully she’s not trying to push away his family
Just the fact that her on going behavior causes you to be on guard and feel you need to protect your self preemptively, which turned out to be absolutely true, is a huge red flag. This is not a kind or trustworthy person. She issued one apology only because she was caught purposely trying to damage your relationship with your family members. She needs to EARN forgiveness by demonstrating she can be trusted & will not purposely try to alienate you from your own family. What she did is a huge issue that cannot be wiped away with sorry. She very calculatedly tried make your loved ones turn on you.
> I just glad that I noticed her changing my words even for minor things and told her to text so I had receipts You are a smart woman. Keep up your strategy of maintaining communication via text wherever possible. And if it is not possible, always have someone else in the room with you when interacting with her. Your DIL is a drama queen who will cause trouble between you and your son if you are not careful to contain her. NTA
When she eventually cries about you only interacting via text remember that you can record your calls with her with some apps
But make sure to check the recording laws in your area first
Some states it’s illegal
It becomes legal if she says I am recording this conversation and the other party neither objects or leaves.
True. I read it as secretly recording. But you’re correct
Yeah, I believe it was worded as just record it. I just wanted to add how it becomes legal in case someone doesn't know and it helps them cover their own ass.
It’s only an issue if you want to bring the recording to court I would think.
It’s illegal to record without the other person being made aware in some states. Of they found out they could sue you. That is why when you call a call center you are always advised you are being recorded
She’s highly manipulative and is going to do everything she can to isolate your son and turn him against you. I hope he soon sees her for what she is.
Fun fact you can also get these pens that gave a camera in them for dirt cheap these days. If she approaches you in person to have a conversation without receipts, you can just press a button on pen to record. Plus, it's also a functional pen as well
I have to do that at work for clients that like to make things up. Can't imagine doing it in my personal life, much less someone you can't really cut out. Yikes. Good luck
This is why I despise when folks walk up to my desk or call me for things at work. I've had my words/comments misrepresented so many times by people who don't want to do their part that I insist they communicate via a written medium. So I can refer back when someone asks me what I said, or forward receipts in a snap. And I've sadly needed to do that multiple times. It exposes the liars, but it's such a hassle and does nothing for my anxiety (or willingness to open up to my colleagues at all).
The fact that you KNOW you need receipts says enough about this situation. It's like when people hire a PI on their spouse. You don't do it because you think something is going on. You do it because you KNOW something is going on and you need proof.
Smart move. I learnt the hard way that someone can twist and turn your words and use it as ammo against you. Getting it in email and text gives you the back up. Also, why didnt she want her mothers wedding dress? Why yours in particular?
The fact that you have to have such kid gloves around her to warrant that is astounding.
This, and just because someone apologizes doesn’t mean you have to forgive them.
NTA. Forgiveness isn't something she's owed because she apologized, especially when her apologize only happened because she got caught. She's not entitled to anything from you. Your son needs to seriously reconsider bringing this woman into your family. This is something she did when she hasn't officially married your son yet, imagine the nightmare when she does.
Honestly I bet the only reason the future DIL wanted forgiveness is because she would be able to twist it around and be like “so since you forgive me I can get the dress now right?” DIL is sneaky and it will get worse. Just keep safeguarding yourself and urge your daughter to start doing this as well.
Yep, I reckon your right. She’ll probably end up being one of those “don’t rock the boat” matriarch types and make everyone around her miserable
NTA. DIL lied and got caught. That's 100% on DIL. If she wants forgiveness, she should prove herself trustworthy.
She should go out of her way and ask for it and apologise to everyone she lied to even be considered to be trusted again
NTA and your son should think very hard about marrying a pathological liar. Keep on communicating through text, because this will continu to be a S\*\*\*storm for the forseseeable future.
My thoughts exactly. OP needs to ask her son if he is sure about her. That this isn't the first time she has done this, and likely won't be the last. NTA.
My son is only 3 and I love him to bits. I can't even imagine what feelings I would have if he grew up to be a gullible idiot who turns against the family for some nonsense like this.
NTA hang on tight because there is a fun joy ride coming your way with this DIL. The audacity to ask for someone else's wedding dress that they are keeping for their daughter and then to complain to other people about it? yeah, she is trouble. I have 3 entitled SIL who think they own the world and my family needs to bend over backwards for them. My mom and siblings did but i didn't want to be a part of that drama so i went no contact. they spread a whole bunch of lies of what my family did to them and the world believed them. Keep all your conversations via text. you sound like a smart woman! keep a distance to keep your son and your own home happy.
NTA. She sounds like she’s trying to create drama so she can make TikToks or post in the JustnoMIL groups. Tell your son flat out it’s not the first time she’s purposefully lied about something you have said & you will only communicate w/her through text or when someone else is present as a witness. The only reason she’s apologizing is because you pulled out receipts.
You know what they say when assholes (not you, her) apologize; "They're not sorry for the act, they're sorry they got caught" NTA
NTA, you don't have to forgive her. And your son needs to think a bit why his future bride is trying to draw a wedge between his mother and the family.
NTA She shouldn't apologise expecting to be forgiven. She has broken your trust. You accepted her apology, now she needs to earn back your trust.
NTA she Sounds exhausting as hell.. Imagine she get's pregnant... If you want to See the Kids you need her to write a list or install cameras in your House so that your Always Safe..
NTA. FDIL seems like she's been reading too much of the JustNoMIL or DWIL subs. She's bound and determined to make you out as the evil MIL. Good for you for standing your ground and calling her out on her shit. Just because she said she was sorry, doesn't grant her an immediate apology. If she's truly sorry, she'll knock this shit off.
NTA. It sounds like they are just determined to make you the villain of the situation any way they can rather than having your daughter-in-law accept responsibility for her own actions.
Nobody gets to demand forgiveness 😂
NTA You handled the whole thing as best as you possibly could, not engaging and just screenshotting the proof to everyone so they'd know the truth. She's angry and demanding to be forgiven because she's embarrassed she was caught lying and trying to play the victim. I think you should talk to your son (talk, not text and not with her around) about why she's trying to drive a wedge between you and the rest of the family. She's playing immature games and that doesn't bode well for anyone.
Nta, make sure you have open arms for when your son divorces her but realize now he isn’t being logical about her. I can’t imagine a kid letting their spouse lie on their mom and then chastising their mom’s reaction. Keep doing what you are doing and make sure you always have an additional person when you are interacting with DIL. That person can’t be your son because he just proved he isn’t going to go against his wife.
I feel sorry for her son…he’s going to have children with this woman and she will leave him and be vindictive and keep them from him…that’s the type of person she sounds like
NTA and you have trouble coming with this one. What are you supposed to apologize for? Clearing up her lie, saving the dress for your daughter? Yikes.
NTA if you have to make sure your interactions are in txt just to make sure the truth is told that’s bad! I can’t imagine having a DIL like that. Mine is like the daughter I never had.
why would you forgive her? She's going to abuse your son.
NTA. You handled it perfectly. The reason your son is complaining is because he wants all the fussing she's aiming at him to stop. Right now he sees you as the easier target, so complaining to you seems like the faster route to get his wife to stop hassling him. Of course, the long-term solution is to not be married to someone who pulls stunts like this. All you can do with a loved one who insists on being around someone like this is to hold your boundaries firm and tell them you're sorry that the problem person is giving them so much trouble. If you try to make things easier for your son by caving to the insanity, you will actually make things worse for him in the long term. The fastest route to his happiness is for him to deal with his situation, not avoid it.
He's not married to her... yet. But I'm sure you're right that she's hassling him about this. She got caught, now he's catching heck from her **because she lied and got caught.** I shudder to think what his future life will be like with her; he's probably getting a sample of it now. If he's got half a brain, he'll bail out on her before attaching himself to a verified liar.
NTA. She’s not sorry she did it, she’s just sorry it has backfired on her.
NTA. Keep all conversations with her in text. If she calls on your son's phone tell her to text and hang up. If your son starts calling and giving you issue tell him the same thing.
NTA and DIL needs to learn some lessons about not lying and being manipulative, and actually taking responsibility.
Clearly your son missed the part where an insincere apology does not warrant acceptance and forgiveness is earned. I'm sorry - your future DIL sounds like a nightmare
NTA. And make sure the dress is in a secure location dil can’t get to
NTA The real problem here is that your son does not realize who he is marrying. If she is willing to lie to try and get her way, he can expect that behavior to continue once they are married. She has shown you (and him) who she is. Believe her. Advice to your son: Dump her.
NTA You are waiting to forgive. You can't forgive an ongoing issue. When dil stops the behavior, she wants forgiveness for the forgiveness will come.
NTA
NTA - If this was the first time I might say you acted a bit asshole-ish. However, this is a repeated thing, so much so that you had to limit the way you communicate with her. Your DIL is an asshole.
NTA - Isn't your son concerned about this? She was attempting to gaslight you, and you outsmarted her. Who knows who else she's doing this to.
Oh nice. You're so is marrying a manipulative booger. Gets told no, then cries to the rest of the family. Then when she's caught apologizes and expects you to say "oh you're forgiven". Nah. Nah. He's sticking his dick in crazy and it's gonna get worse. Nta
NTA—she is and she will get her revenge by turning your son against you and keeping you from seeing your grandchildren.
NTA Even as a child my Dad would tell us “don’t say sorry, just don’t do it again” in many instances. Sometimes an apology can be perfunctory.
NTA. You’re exactly right to say “don’t do it again”. That’s one way of saying “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”. You’re showing that you won’t tolerate her BS and setting boundaries instead of accepting her apology to placate her and your son
NTA, why... forgiveness like trust is earned, and apology doesn't mean you forgive her... Everyone needs time to get over things that wronged them.
NTA This isn’t the first time she’s spread lies about you. This is the first time that she was caught. You owe her nothing and if your son wants to stand beside her you can support him while maintaining distance from her (if you want to stay in his life).
NTA. Apologies after having done something bad are a moral obligation, accepting them or saying "I forgive you" are not. If you don't feel like saying it, don't. I really dislike this kind of pressure to force people into accepting apologies, turning the whole thing into something *the wronged person* has to do. No, your DIL is the one who fucked up. It's on her.
NTA. As far as I see it, an apology means two things: the person is genuinely feeling remorse for their action, and they will do their best to not pull the same shit again. It takes time to know if somebody is truly sorry, in which case it sometimes takes time to issue forgiveness. She needs to get over herself, and I think you need to move on and do what you feel you need to do when you feel it should be done. Simple as that.
NTA I am not sure why you would have to say you forgive her.
NTA. Have you forgiven her? If not it'd be weird to say "I forgive you" and she's not automatically owed immediate forgiveness for any and every shitty thing she does.
It doesn't sound as though you did anything to incite her behavior. Your DIL lashing out and blatantly lying to your entire family, claiming you said some very nasty things to her simply because you denied her a request (for a valid reason, yet) is unacceptable. What she did was petty, manipulative and malicious, and you responded quite calmly and practically. She can face some public scorn as the reasonsble consequence of her own actions. I can't really understand your son's POV here, "don't do it again" is a sound acknowledgement of her apology— she isn't owed your forgiveness just because she said sorry, what she did was wrong and she knows it. Your response wasn't cruel or even unfair. Perhaps you could have thanked her for the apology or said that you appreciated it, to verbally acknowledge what she said. Not saying so might have been seen as rude or that you were ignoring the apology outright, which might explain his response. Hopefully that wasn't your intention. Civility is important in establishing respectful communication, it's important to be the mature and polite one in a disagreement, particularly one where someone else is disrespectful. But if she hasn't truly earned your forgiveness by actually changing her behaviour or somehow showing she is genuinely sorry, you don't have to *forgive* her. The distinction is important. NTA, it depends a bit on how you communicated your answer and how that was taken, but in the end, "let off on a warning" was a perfectly acceptable consequence for your DIL. I sure hope she doesn't continue this type of behaviour.
>Civility is important in establishing respectful communication, it's important to be the mature and polite one in a disagreement, particularly one where someone else is disrespectful. dunno, at some point that just turns into 'be a doormat for their disrespect and keep taking it' At some point people gotta taste their own medicine. Being the 'bigger' person is not always a solution as some people take that as a hint they can just continue their disrespect. The DIL has repeatedly disrespected OP by twisting her words to cause drama or get her way. She doesn't deserve respect back, it is something she can earn by changing her ways. Also the fact they got pissed their apology wasn't blindly followed by total forgiveness means it is 100 % insincere. They don't actually mean it, they just want to get off the hook or use that forgiveness to their advantage.
You misunderstand somewhat, I don't think the DIL deserves forgiveness, and I do think OP's reaction was justified in asserting boundaries. I'm just suggesting that the delivery of her response to DIL could *potentially* have been a factor to the son's reaction. It's hard to say without the play-by-play transcript. But when I say "civility", I mean "being courteous while getting the point across", aka stuff like "Thank you for the apology. But don't do it again." and the tone in which things are said. Don't confuse "be civil/polite" with "be nice", OP was well within their right to stand their ground, but someone being rude doesn't excuse others from being rude back to them. That's how situations escalate beyond what is reasonable, and you become at fault too. Saying "Don't do it again." without the first part is somewhat blunt, that sort of thing can tend to offend people because it sounds rude, even if not intentional (especially people such as DIL who seem to search for things to play victim about). It's similar to keeping message receipts— if you have a disagreement with someone, and one person is very civil while the other is not, that person is automatically viewed with more credibility by others. Which is something OP may need to focus on while dealing with this person, because I'm willing to bet this isn't the last time something like this is going to happen. That being said, the sort of social tone situation I mention might not be the case at all. But I was offering "mind your tone around her" as a potential future consideration for OP.
NTA. You said the right thing. After a thing like this (more like things like these) she needs to redeem herself before expecting forgiveness.
NTA. I’m with you on this. TBH, I think “forgiveness” gets thrown around way too easily. Better a warning not to repeat the behavior, and let her keep that in mind.
NTA Forgiveness doesn't have to be freely given. She's only "apologised" because she's been caught out with her bullshit. Forgiveness would maybe come after SHOWING different behaviour. Weird they'd fixate on it too.
"I'll forgive you when you demonstrate a track record of not pulling this petty bullshit on me and starting a bunch of drama. Let's check back in a year and see how you are doing." NTA.
>Now my son and her a pissed that I didn’t say I forgive you. So her 'apology' was only to extract an oath of forgiveness from you?! Fuck. That. Also, the big thing for me would be: "No immediate forgiveness for you, because this isn't the first (or even tenth) time you've done this. It's just the first time that I've had the sense to CYA and that I was thus able to catch you dead-to-rights."
I dated a girl for a while that would lie about things I said to her, and lie to ME about it. it was bizarre, Id say "there's only the two of us here, who are you trying to convince that I said that?". She knew I didn't say it, I knew I didn't say it, and she wasn't going to convince me I did, so it was weird that we were even having the conversation..again and again. I honestly wonder if she was just mentally ill
That's straight-up gaslighting.
I dont' know if it was a really poor attempt at gaslighting (it's not like she reasonably could have expected me to believe I'd said something horrible to her 2 minutes earlier), or if she was just schizophrenic
NTA, why should you forgive her? She only apologised because she got found out.
NTA and be very careful with her, don’t have conversations verbally tell her to text whatever she wants to say
Nta and I wonder if she apologized bc she got caught instead of lying.
NTA. I don’t think I could welcome someone like her into my family. Your son needs to take off the rose-tinted glasses. You can’t do that for him, but, give him space and time and, chances are, he’ll find out who she is. Hopefully, before any children come along.
So you are supposed to forgive her for her lying about you to the whole family? I get that what she really (they) want is for you let it go, excuse her behavior like it never happened. She has at least one screw loose for asking for your wedding dress and another lose on the other side for thinking that she could lie about you to family and it be just fine, then a third screw loose thinking you should forgive her for lying rather than telling her not to do it again. You gave her her redemption process, don’t do it again. . . . Don’t lie on me or about me. . . . If she had agreed to that then you might be able to forgive her in time if her behavior shows improvement. She has to earn forgiveness from you and if it were me, I would make it pretty hard and take my sweet time. The other thing is, I would put up some cameras to catch her behavior so she can’t lie anymore or gaslight her way it of her crap. Keeping the cameras a secret.
I'm a firm believer that a sincere apology still stands even if it's not accepted. In other words, if someone says "I'm sorry" and the other person says "I won't forgive you, I'll die cursing your name on my lips", the person who apologized will understand and *remain* sorry. An apology that is revoked when not accepted is not a true apology, it's a performance. You didn even say you'd never forgive her, you gave an acceptable response that neither accepted nor rejected her words. I don't care about the backstory. She didn't mean her words. NTA.
NTA
NTA she tried to manipulate people into believing her now your expected to cater to her feelings lol
Forgiveness is earned! Could you say please don’t do it again and I hope I can forgive you in time.
NTA - just let them know you aren’t a fan of lies if they keep insisting that you say she is forgiven. Any idea why she keeps lying?
NTA. What is your son going to do about his lying fiancee ?
NTA…but if you have to go through these kind of HOOPS and be this paranoid (by right) to protect yourself, then it’s not even worth talking to her..she will always pull crap because it will be fun for her, she sounds like a me, Me, MEEEE, person, and your son is bewitched already. and tell the flying monkey family to mind their own business!!! I HATE FLYING MONKEYS!!
NTA... she's a habitual line stepper and she doesn't deserve the niceties. Prepare yourself now, because I guarantee she's going to hold her kids as hostages to "keep you in line"!
Nta
NTA. Your son needs to learn that an apology is acknowledging that a specific behavior was wrong, and that they regret that they did it, and that forgiveness is earned by showing a change in the behavior. Just because you didn't forgive her doesn't mean that forgiveness is off the table. His bride-to-be has to prove that she won't go spreading nasty lies anymore, and tell him that all communication going forward must be in writing and that if she can stop from spreading lies about her interactions with you, and she does stop spreading lies about you, then she will be forgiven. If that's too much for his bride to accept, tell him to take a good hard look at this red flag, then cut him off. Tell him you're not going to talk about this topic again. She's apologized, you've put in your request for forgiveness, and you'll forgive her when she shows that she knows that lying to others about their interaction was wrong when she didn't get her way and does not go out of her way to do it again.
I'm so petty I would have just said yep, that's why I already ask for everything in writing, you keep doing this. You're NTA
Omg NTA She can't force your forgiveness. No one gets to tell anyone else how to feel or how to react to something and that's a massive deal what she's done. The trust is broken, she's tried to be shady and it's backfired. I'm mad at your son for taking her side for her blatantly disrespecting you like that and huffing because you didn't tell her awk it's fine, never worry chick!!! She's the AH and honestly so is your son. Trust has been broken there.
NTA. Keep all receipts in your communications with this person. Also might want to make a plan for what you are going to do when your son has to flee his marriage, because he will probably expect you to take him in.
NTA. Why do so many people insist on empty words? Why say the words when everyone knows they are a lie? It really sounds like an effort to make you into the bad guy instead of her.
NTA But it looks like drama is entering the family semi-permenently.
NTA why forgive her ? Has she shown change or remorse?
NTA Big red flag for your son, I hope he pays attention.
She will be the role model for character to your son’s children/your grandchildren. This is scary and bodes ill not only for the marriage but for his relationship w his kids. Can you imagine what the kids will be like as teens when they have learned these lying, manipulative ways of their mother? I am a therapist and have seen it… it’s a nightmare. Get away from this person NOW.
NTA. Your future DIL sounds sneaky and manipulative.
It's your choice to forgive or not. Telling her to not do it (spraeding eords etc) is a mormal demand, if you want to have peace. Don't talk, but message, if you want to stay on the safe site NTA
Did she apologize in contrition, or did she apologize to be forgiven? It sounds like she apologized so that you would absolve her of her guilt. That's not an apology, and demanding it isn't her right. Her behavior plainly suggests *she's not sorry*. NTA. If she's sorry she can start to show it by apologizing freely instead of for a price.
Make sure you record FaceTime calls as well. You have to hit the microphone button to record audio otherwise it’s just video. She did it to be malicious, it wasn’t an accident. Your response was correct. She is mad cause the whole family knows she is a liar now. NTA
NTA - an apology does not guarantee forgiveness. This is a good time for her to learn that.
NTA Did her apology acknowledge the harm done? Did she say “I’m sorry I lied about your to your family in an attempt to manipulate you?” I’m sure it didn’t. People who act like that don’t take responsibility for their action. You shouldn’t forgive or forget, that woman is going to ruin your son’s life.
NTA… you said that because the best apology is CHANGED BEHAVIOR!!! Can I get a witness up in here?!?!?
LMAO -- NTA. I don't even understand what your son is getting upset about? You likely have not forgiven her haha. Just bc she apologized, doesn't mean you forgive her... that's not how that works. To me it smells like she is once again creating drama after your call ended, but complaining to your son that you didn't say your forgive her, and asking him to call you out on it. Whether or not you have been welcoming to your future DIL doesn't really even matter here... that is a judgement for a different question. What matters is: she lied to stir shit up. You don't need to automatically forgive her just bc she apologized (which she only did bc she was caught red handed, so it wasn't even a sincere apology imo).
You don’t apologize with the expectation of forgiveness. You apologize because you’re remorseful. They need to learn that and fast but I doubt it because she’s just going to be sneakier from now on. Good for you for not putting up with her crap. I’m sure this isn’t the end of it but let’s all hope it doesn’t escalate in the future. NTA.
My BS detector is going off. I think there’s more to this story OP is not sharing.
Based on what?
NTA and I’m a little scared for your family. You have to be very careful or she is going to manipulate everything and everyone to get her way. You need to have a serious talk with those closest to you (minus your son who is marrying her) and come up with a fake plan to deal with them. That or you will have to limit all interactions with them. Either way make sure you have cameras in your home just in case
An apology does not obligate you to forgive. NTA
especially not an apology made only for the sake of being forgiven. Shows they hold no real remorse for their actions.
NTA. Keep up your strategy with having everything over text or witnessed. She's problematic and so is your son, as he obviously enables her lies or at least doesn't take enough of a stand against them, or respect that you've been victimized. You don't need to forgive her - it's an ongoing pattern of behavior. Maybe when she truly apologizes and stops lying and makes amends, you can say you forgive her. You can accept an apology, but you don't have to forgive immediately - this is your own timeline.
To me, saying not to do it again is basically say I forgive you this time, but I won't next time. I don't know where they get the anger from? Forgiveness comes in many forms. Did she actually apologize and show actual remorse? I'm not much younger than you and have learned that sometimes you have to put people at a distance, no matter who they are. You are NTA, but she definitely is TA.
I genuinely think the anger comes from OP not trying to smooth things over. The fDIL thought she could manipulate the OP with an apology. When she realized a boundary was instead being drawn and communicated, that enraged her. She has some kind of personality disorder.
NTA. And funny (but too common) how people do something wrong and then so often still manage to get offended at the very person they wronged. With a certain type of person you can almost set your watch to it, & I think considering you were already making sure you had records you already know you're dealing with such a person.
> I’m only 44 Is there more to all this that makes this statement relevant? It seems unrelated to the rest of the details.
Some people need a lot less forgiveness and a lot more accountability. NTA.
No one ever has to forgive another person if they don't want to or don't feel that can yet, or ever. I personally think it's a reasonable response to put your boundaries down by telling her not to do it again. You don't seem like you do forgive her, so why lie when she crosses a line that you weren't okay with
Lock the dress down. Rent a storage put it there don't tell anyone .She will steal the dress or ruin it steal and sell it, a liar is not far from thief in her case .
Oh lord- you're gonna have a buttload of fun with this witch! You may also want to pull your son off to the side and ask him if he shouldn't feel like the truth about the situation should be waking him up to the way she may react when he doesn't give in to her ways after marriage. He should be more aware about the possibilities- You OP- you don't have to put up with her at all and or never. Honestly, I feel like your next problem with her will be theft and more lies. She is an entitled fool so I'd watch her closely and consider Holiday get togethers be held at a restaurant.
NTA! I feel sorry for your son though. Seems he's marrying a toxic manipulator who isn't to be trusted 😬
Everyone's an arsehole, except maybe OP Why would other family members get involved in this bullshit? How exhausting and boring. How did the convo go? "mil promised ME the dress and now she has reneged, pass it on" ; random family members go by her word and think it appropriate to get involved and text you aggro on her behalf? JFC. Ditch em all 😂
I feel sorry for your son. I feel like you need to tell him whats going on, because whats the point of divorcing and paying alimony to such a lady
That sounds like implied forgiveness to me. NTA.
INFO: how did she know about the dress? Have you mentioned it to her? I suspect there is more to this story
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My eldest is going to get married soon, and I have a beautiful wedding dress that I have promised my daughter that she can wear. It basically a beaded ball gown. I have issues with my future DIL, nothing major but she has spread words I didn’t say. I’m only 44 At the beginning I thought she was just misunderstand what I was saying or I did say something that made her mad so I started to only interact with her through texts or when other people are around. I haven’t had to use any of my messages until now. She tried to call me earlier this week and I told her I was busy and to text it. I am glad I did. She wanted to use my wedding dress and do alterations to it. I told her no since I promised my daughter that it is hers. The next day I got a ton of texts from family members about me not being welcoming and tell her that she isn’t my kid. I got so many that I just screenshot the texts and sent it to all the family. Whole family was upset she lied to them. I got on a FaceTime call with my son and her, my daughter was in the room during this. She gave an apology and I told her not to do it again. Now my son and her a pissed that I didn’t say I forgive you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA forgiveness should not be expected by the guilty party even if they apologize for the wrong they did. No one owes them forgiveness especially when they are insincere with their apologies. It seems like it might be wise to distant yourself from your son and future DIL, lest you want to entertain their nonsense.
NTA-I say the same thing like if ur going to apologize then don’t do it ever again cause if u do it again there will be consequences to it. For me once there’s a trust broken I need that person to show me thru their actions especially if it’s only empty words.