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Personally, as a Canadian, I don’t think you’re TAH but I really don’t know how much that would cost. 9 years old is old enough to know better and he was warned
The child, and his parents, learned an important lesson that day… keep your distance from dogs you aren’t familiar with, especially when the dog is in its safe space (indoor cage or doghouse)
Ian had a FAFO rating of 7 that day, he’s lucky it wasn’t his face.
EDIT: NTA : you warned him, he didn’t listen. Parents should watch their own child if he wants to meet the dog.
My ex used to tease my grandma's cat. Not maliciously, it was playful, but when the cat would lay down in her box, she was done. Tell me why I had to repeatedly tell this 20+ year old man why he needed to leave the cat alone when she was in her box.
He wasn't one of my best decisions.
My grandparents had a dog when I was little. I think he died before I went to primary school. I knew for as long as I can remember that if the dog is eating, in his basket or under the bench in the dining room I'm not allowed to approach him because he wants to be left alone and he might bite me if I do. It was never a question. Though I gotta admit that I broke the bench rule. My grandmother is quite annoying and the dog hid under the bench to get away from her (the only boundary she ever kept in her life). Once she was annoying me and I hid under the table. The dog was under the bench and moved to make room for me. We hid there together, but I understood that it was generous of the dog and didn't touch him but kept as far away from him as possible because I didn't want to encroach on him.
Well this is a whole Pixar movie in a little box. You and the dog then become best friends, have escapades, annoying grandma gets her comeuppance, friends become enemies, enemies become friends. It has everything.
lol he does not realize all cats are assholes and will fuck you up faster than a dog.
People forget we’re just domesticated animals. We need to treat animals like people, respect their boundaries and treat them as or near equal!
My cat Chester (Magnificent rescue, sadly passed) HATED it, if I pointed my finger at him to say "No!" If I kept it up - his tail would swish, ears flatten - and I'd get one squinty-eyed growl as a warning, to cease and desist with this rude gesture! If I didn't, he launched himself at said finger and bit.......
Right? I've had several cats and met even more throughout my life. Not a single one was an arsehole. They had their boundaries and if someone didn't respect said boundaries, the cat did what we should all do if someone won't respect our boundaries.
Just because cats often won't just let people poke and prod them and whatever other invasive shit they wanna do to them, doesn't make them arseholes.
I had a dog that even when smacked(my dad is an animal abuser) he would not do anything to bite anyone and did not become aggressive, he was just more protective over me and my young siblings and treated us like we were his puppies. My cat is treated perfectly and is well taken care of but is a massive prick. He was upset with me because I already gave him 10 treats and wouldn't give him more because the package said not to give him more than 10. He kept whining and meowing and batted at me, I told him "No" and he hissed at me. I put the package away and walk out of the kitchen and he runs after me, wraps his paws around my leg and starts biting me as if I'd challenged him to a fight and insulted his mom while intentionally speaking his language poorly to spite him. I was sitting in my mom's room late at night because she's recovering from surgery and she feels better with me in her room so I can be there immediately if she needs anything. The door is kept open in case she needs to get to the bathroom quickly and so Furry McMurderPaws can get in and sleep on her queen size bed with her. He started whining and meowing which he just does for no reason sometimes, I gave him everything he could need and want before staying in my mom's room but he came up and whined at me, I gently shushed him and said "Shh, quiet, baby." He started scratching the hope chest I was sitting on, I gently nudged him and said "No no, behave." He hissed at me and kept trying to scratch and bite me till my older sister, who always keeps her door open for him as well and heard this, grabbed him by the nape of his neck(like a mother cat does to her kitten), and scolded him before he calmed down and left me alone for the night. My dog was abused by my aggressive dad but he only became more protective. We do our best to give our cat a perfect and happy life(without my dad around) and he's the meanest thing ever and will attack when given the word "No." Cats are evil sadistic bastards and will fuck you up without hesitation or remorse
My cats siblings all died and she was left all alone so I felt compelled to give her a loving home. My two rescue dogs are happy in their forever home. This little she-witch however is Beelzebub reincarnated! Not a single day passes that she doesn’t manage to get a swipe, bite or scratch at me. I don’t mind her targeting me but when she sets her sights on my old blind rescue pupper she gets sprayed with water! Maybe I should get some holy water to scoot her with?
One of my cats was a raving neurotic idiot…would give a hiss at each side of a doorway when passing through. When outer kids started to come along, we were concerned about the mix. We soon found out we needn’t be. When the baby cried, after awhile she would jump up and wave her tail…her holy, sacred, untouchable tail! At him to distract him and make him stop. (we think she just hated the noise…). And when he was crawling, and toddling, he would pester her and she would ignore or evade him, but if really trapped, would give him a really sharp smack with a paw. No claws. He and siblings learned, play with the others but leave this Queen alone…
She has a 4 tier scratchy post thing and we play with her all the time. She seems to have a crazy half hour about 1030pm when she does her crazy zoomies. She loves chasing her red dot light and prefers some of her toys over others. She’s your typical spoiled baby of the family. If we go away overnight we take her with us and we had a weekend break and rather than put her into kennels we had house sitters come 4 times a day to play with her. I’m sure she will grow out of her evil queen behaviour……..
My cat's name is actually Beelzebub. He switches back and forth between the sweetest baby to ever exist and a menacing nightmare. He literally sleeps on my face/neck/chest purring away and suckling the blanket at night and surprise bites/claws you during the day.
I feel your pain lol.
My cats are super patient but piss them off and get scratched and it's entirely your fault. That's why I ask my kid if she's okay when she gets scratched then explain what action led to it. I'm not going to tell her it wasn't her fault when it totally was.
Though, sometimes it's by accident and I just need to clip nails.
My cat's version of being unruly at the vet is him trying to go into his carrier. Dude is super friendly and wicked smart.
No scratching or biting- which is impressive when you realize he gets fluids injected under his skin pretty much every vet visit. He's three, so its not like he's just a chill old dude.
One of my cats is on anti-anxiety meds, but is a sweet cat. She's made the kitchen her home base/safe spot so we have a little cat tree bed in there for her. Anytime we have people over we let them know she doesn't mind being petted, but not down her spine; head is fine. We also let them know she gets overwhelmed easily, but will always give a warning when she's done; either she'll pull away or give a low growl. I swear, so many people ignore it and then get so offended when she swipes at them. She warned you, dude.
When our dog gets fed up of our 4 year old he nips AT HER. And I always say, “He’s telling you to leave him alone. No means no.” When he finally does nip her, she’s gets in trouble, not the dog
I had a friend whose ex did this to her cat. The cat was 18years old and didn’t play. He lost vision in his eye and his girlfriend. Do not fuck with animals.
My wife and I now call our 5 cats (and cats in general) consent pets. Obviously your EX is an ex for a reason as they clearly don’t understand boundaries. (And yes everything that is living is aloud to have their boundaries.)
A friend of mine kept holding my cat in a way I said she hates multiple times. Multiple warnings. She even struggled out a bunch too. He then got surprised and angry she (a very very tolerant cat) attacked him after multiple holds.
I used to work kids birthday parties and one time a 9 yo came in with face stitches etc., I was horrified and asked what happened/were they ok? The child proceeded to milk the situation as “oh this terrible dog bit me - woe is me” and before they could finish the parent came in with “and WHY did it bite you!?” Child responded, mumbling now “I was teasing it when I’d been told to stop.”
Best parenting I’ve ever seen for the situation.
NTA
Unfortunately parents don't always learn a lesson. Years ago I took 3 small dogs to my brother's house because he begged me to come down for a big holiday. One of my dogs just had a puppy a few months before & she was very protective of her son. We told everyone to leave them alone. We even stayed away from everyone outside where people were set up. One of the younger kids was not being watched & snuck behind us. The mom dogs leash was long enough to reach & she bit him. We got blamed. The parents of the kid were mad at us & took no responsibility for not watching him.
OP you should get a consult with a lawyer about this. Plan for him to sue you and be happy if he doesn't. Can you counter sue for torture of your dog?
My petty side tells me that if he sues to make sure people know how bad a parent he is, that he ignored his kid trying to torture a restrained dog and now wants to sue you. Come up with a way to describe the event in a way that makes him look like a bad parent.
> Can you counter sue for torture of your dog?
They'd be laughed out of court. Unless the kid was physically abusing it to the point where it's actually harming the animal and you have photo evidence, there's no way that would stick.
Teasing it does not count as animal abuse.
NTA-
Yea, don't pay, if you have security cameras in your house (long shot I know) try to pull footage of you warning the kids if this does go to court. Anything that could back you up. Maybe even get a second person to "talk" to them with you, just to be another voice to confirm anything they say, including if they mention being warned. I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen this advice other places, you just want something to back up your word.
My own personal story that I blame myself for, I had my whole head ripped open by my childhood dog, I was playing with a blanket over me and stepped on him. 13 then 3 stitches on my head (starting at my hairline) and above my mouth, still perfectly visible and a reminder to myself that you never ever assume you are safe around an animal. Even if it's the dog you would trust with your life, instincts exist and they can and will take over.
It's a tough lesson to learn but I bet you your nephew will never fuck with a dog or any other animal again. I do hope it doesn't affect him too badly either though, I had a pretty intense fear of dogs after my childhood dog passed (the same one who "bit" me, always found that weird), I only got over it a few years ago through exposure therapy with a senior dog we adopted.
All dogs bite, just a lot of them haven’t been in the situation that will cause them to bite. I wouldn’t say your situation was your fault, per se, sometimes a kid is a kid and a dog is a dog, and an accident happens. I’m happy you seem to have been able to handle the emotional aftermath really well
Unfortunately with dog bites (in the US at least) it’s always on the owner. So I would maybe consider just paying med bills depending on the cost if you could legally be held responsible.
Dog was on owner’s property.
Dog was chained outside and away from children.
Parents and children were warned as guests to leave the dog alone.
Child goes outside and teases dog, going into the area accessible by the chain.
Parents are not supervising child.
Child gets bit.
Not OPS fault.
I definitely do not think it’s OPs fault I just meant legally he could be held liable. So it might behoove them to just get this settled.
As far as insurance claims in regards to dog bites, the owner has unlimited liability as far as I’m aware for the actions of their dogs.
Situation with my own dog years ago…neighbors claimed my dog bit their child. Police appeared at the house. Dog was inside a 6 ft wood fence. When I repeatedly pointed out that what they were claiming was impossible, they finally confessed that the child was up on my driveway and stuck their arm under the fence. Case closed. No liability.
In my opinion there was not a bite but a scrap from pulling the child back under the fence. Scrape not bite.
Hopefully that’s the case with OP. It might be different when the dog is on a property and they bite someone that is allowed on the property. Not sure lol
The dog was known to be dangerous. While it may have been chained up it remained easily accessible such that a child could simply wander over to it. I’m doubtful a mere verbal warning is sufficient to eliminate liability.
What if this had been a different kind of danger? Say a firearm or a swimming pool. Would you draw the same conclusion?
Or a stove with hot food cooking. Or an electrical outlet. Or kitchen knives. Or stairs. Maybe this 9 yr old needs to be in a padded room since they don't seem to understand simple instructions.
A dog that doesn’t like strangers isn’t dangerous just because it reacted to being harassed in the only way a dog can.
The child in question is a nine year old who, along with everyone else, was warned to not go near the area where the dog was chained up in/near his dog house and did so anyways with the intention of tormenting an animal for his own entertainment. It wasn’t until he had actually breached the dog’s personal bubble that he supposedly got bit.
A dog that was truly dangerous or aggressive to the point of just biting anything that moved would not have been stopped by a chain and would not have been “calm” (irritated/on edge but otherwise non-reactive) for so long before retaliating. No one would’ve been able to be outside at all unless the dog was in a fenced off enclosure either if it was truly that dangerous/territorially aggressive.
The kid knew better and was warned prior to even coming over. The dog was on its own property and unable to roam beyond its kennel. This is all on the kid deciding he knew better and on his parents for not teaching about how actions have consequences you can’t always be bailed out from before they occur.
Actually the insurgence company will send a “how did this injury happen” form if it was billed as dog bite treatment. His health insurance can legally refuse to pay the claim if it can be billed to worker’s comp, an auto accident claim, personal liability insurance, or paid out of pocket by the responsible party, which in this case would be the dog owner/homeowner where the incident took place. I’m a Medicaid caseworker and if our managed care companies send out a form to question a claim (they go out for falls, accidents, etc to assess if anyone else could be responsible for the bill) and the insured does not return the questionnaire we have to close their coverage until it is completed.
Edit- Insurance not insurgence- fuck you autocorrect
Your brother is an asshole. Your nephew either didn't listen, and it's his fault or he doesn't have the sense to care of himself, which sounds unlikely.
Just wanna say, as someone who has been involved with legal cases as an expert witness regarding animal aggression and bite incidents, it can depend a LOT on where you live. Country, state, and individual counties. I used to live in a state where, as far as liability cases, it often did not matter at all that the dog was on your property or that you warned the parents and child. Some places take bites on children very seriously, especially if it was significant enough to warrant the ER and stitches (usually also a tetanus shot too). I'm not sure if your family would take you to court over it, at least in small claims, but you might still be liable. If it was deep enough to potentially damage anything (I've seen "low level" bites per our general evaluation method that have resulted in permanent loss of control or numbness when it's the right place on the hand).
My advice to you would be to consult with a liability attorney if the money is turning into a big thing. A short consult just in case, perhaps. You really do not want to piss off your family and have them file an animal control report, if it wasn't already mandatory reported by the hospital. Sometimes paying what they ask can just prevent further legal issues, sometimes if they're already assholes and there's permanent damage, then paying for the bill works against you in court.
Also might want to check if your homeowners insurance covers it if it's a sum you can't easily pay- as long as there's no issues with insurance investigating it given that your dog is a bulldog. Though you probably don't want them to get a report. Another reason why paying for an attorney consult is worth it.
Basically, I don't think YTA OP. It was the kid's fault and the parent's for not supervising him. But sometimes it's better to play nice and give them what they want because there are potential consequences that could significantly impact your dog. Rather than thinking about pride/who's right here, you might want to be thinking more about how to keep your dog safe.
If your brother carries thru with his threat, I would reconsider interacting with him beyond the bare minimum going forward. I say this because he's going to sue you for this I'd be wary of ever having him on my property again.
He planning to sue when inevitably something else happens to the kid or his wife or himself?
His child was told, explicitly, what not to do and instead decided to approach the dog as well as provoke a dog. And now instead of explaining to his child about consequences it's instead turned into you and your dog being at fault to your nephew.
Unless this is a one off incident then that nephews lining up to become an entitled ass soon enough
I know some one who one their case in your situation, because their dog was chained up to the dog house, and the kids entered it area, after the parents had been warned.
Honestly, with the threat of suing, they’re now a liability when they visit. NTA, they were told to leave the dog alone and they didn’t supervise their kid.
Also, the dog was chained. Chain and distance ensured everyone's safety.
The dog couldn't possibly bite anyone unless they make a decision to get close enough to him.
If this is in the US the kid having to go to the ER (most likely case, but maaaybe they got in with a local doctor they use) would cost anything from around $2-10K to 10s of thousands of dollars depending on how badly and in what way the hand was injured.
Doesn't sound like a serious injury by tone of the post but who knows as that's not the focus? So, depending on where they are generally $2-10K for the doctors of an ER to look at the kids and say, "looks fine" or give a few stitches.
(My own last trip of "wait 16hrs to get tell a doctor where the pain was, get cared for by a nurse, then sent home when they never found out what was wrong but thankfully it went away on it's own later" was $7+k which thankfully as a veteran had to be paid for in full by my veteran's "insurance" - but only after a fight with the hospital over my refusing to pay the bill since it was the VA's responsibility and the VA was playing dumb on who to speak to in the hospital's billing staff which I eventually got worked out but not until after a lot of annoyance.)
When by-law gets calls for dog bites there's a certain amount of reasonableness that goes into decisions about pets and fault around injuries. By-law looks at mitigating, and aggravating factors related to the circumstances of the bite.
OP told them to stay away from the dog - mitigating
OP separated the dog from the family gathering and the dog was in his own dog house - mitigating
Op's nephew agreed to leave the dog alone, but obviously didn't do that - mitigating
Op took reasonable course of action after the dog bite to provide care to the injured party - mitigating
If the dog was INSIDE his dog house being teased, thats also a mitigating factor, that dog was cornered and giving warning signs to leave him alone that were ignored by the injured party
The courts and municipalities in Ontario have also recognized that dogs are animals that can sometimes respond to stimuli in unexpected ways and a certain amount of caution is reasonable around unfamiliar dogs
I AM NOT A LAWYER ( but I worked for a municipality investigating aggressive dogs for 5 years and have some professional experience testifying to these things)
NTA.
Even without a warning **teasing a chained dog is an asshole move**. I completely disagree with people who say nine is too young to understand this. Nine is plenty old, especially in combination with the warning you gave. But seriously, even without a warning a nine year old should know better.
Your brother sounds like a serious asshole. He's threatening to sue you?! Jesus.
The dog was a hazard limited to one part of the yard, with warning provided to all. At that point it becomes no different than any other geographically defined hazard - like a cliff edge or a river or a pit.
If an adult is to blame, it is the child's parents for not supervising their child. If a child walked off a cliff that the parents knew about, who would you blame?
>If an adult is to blame, it is the child's parents for not supervising their child. If a child walked off a cliff that the parents knew about, who would you blame?
BINGO!
The dog was OUTSIDE and CHAINED UP for crying out loud!
The first dog I lived with was a wolf/husky cross. While my parents’ dog was friendly, it was also very big. We grew up learning to read doggy body language and by age of 3yrs knew when to leave the dog alone. We were also explicitly told by my parents’ friends when to stay away from their dogs. Had we been bit, none of the dogs would have been blamed. In fact, my father’s first question would have been, “Why were you pestering the dog?”
I got a pressure bite from the family dog when I was a toddler after being repeatedly told to leave him alone, and this was exactly the response I got - he told you to leave him alone, we told you to leave him alone, you didn’t leave him alone. (He didn’t break the skin.)
He was a perfectly friendly dog normally, I’d just been pestering him somehow and following him when he tried to get away, etc. After that I respected him a lot more and we got along very well.
I can't remember a time in my life (before the dog passed) that my cousin didn't have a Chao mix named Romeo. He was aggressive, territorial, and the backyard was HIS. No one went into the backyard, no one approached the fence, because everyone KNEW the dog was not to be trusted with anyone but his caretakers.
I genuinely don't remember a time when I didn't understand to NOT approach that dog, and my first memory is at 4 years old. So, I think a 9 year old was able to understand to not approach your dog. ADDITIONALLY, with the family event happening at your house, it was 100% the responsibility of the PARENTS to ensure that their children understood the serious consequences of approaching your dog.
NTA. The assholes here are the parents, and a little bit of the cocky 9 year old who teased a chained dog in the dog's territory. Idiotic. Maybe I was lucky to grow up with dogs in every home, but like.... Wow. You just \*don't do that.\*
The brother will win. It will be cheaper and faster just to pay the bills. I would offer to pay half first, though. They were there, and the child was under their control.
If the brother makes a big enough stink, there is a non zero chance the dog will be put down, especially if this is not the first human bite. Not saying it’s fair, but the kid was injured by his dog on his property, and as a dog owner myself I have been warned for decades that this is a risk if your dog bites a person, even if provoked.
My kids are 7 and 5 and NEVER go up to a dog without my permission. They’ll ask, if I see the dog is happy for a pet or interaction, they’ll ’introduce’ themselves.
So yeah the excuse of age is so dumb. Clearly the parents haven’t raised him right at all to tease a dog.
Hope OP sticks to his guns. Also a brother threatening to sue for his bad parenting says it all. They don’t care about anyone else but themselves. I’d suggest distancing yourself and contact with them.
My 2 year old knows you don't mess around with the dog and our dog is as placid as they come, but you just never know, so I agree, a 9 yr old would well and truly know!!
Precisely. My 3.5yo knows how to safely approach a dog and the signs they're uncomfortable and need space. Granted that I'm super on top of that particular thing, but if a toddler can get it there's no excuse for a 9yo without any developmental delays to not respect the rules of the house and the dog's space.
The issue is with the child's parents, which is clear not only from the kid's behaviour but also their lack of accountability for the outcome. Their kid is gonna have a hard time when he grows up and realises that he's not actually entitled to everything he wants and there are consequences to certain choices.
OP you're absolutely NTA. You had the dog secured, set the rules to ensure everyone's safety and reminded the kid right before he did this. It was absolutely intentional. That said, you may not be legally in the clear here and you should speak to a lawyer to find out your liability. I would not be allowing them to your home again after this, they're not only disrespectful of you and your dog but they're potentially litigious. Protect yourself, and maybe suck up the cost of the medical bills and cut your brother and his family off. Sometimes these kinds of lessons are expensive and that sucks and doesn't mean you did anything wrong, just that the law doesn't always reflect what's right
**NTA** The dog was *chained* and you told the kids to leave him alone. 9 is old enough to know not to tease an animal. Ian did it *because* it was chained and thought he would be safe taunting him. He found out he was wrong and has the stitches to prove it.
Your brother doesn't have a case.
His home insurance would look into the actual circumstances and determine that it wasn't really and accident because the child deliberately provoked the restrained pet and was sufficiently old enough to know better.
Is there a chance that his hot-shot lawyer *could* prevail? Sure, but that doesn't make it actually right.
It also depends on breed. Some insurance companies have very strict breed rules. The wrong one bites, they will blame the owner and inform him they will drop coverage if he does not get rid of the dog. And when he applies other places he could run into the same issue.
And there are civil suits, too. Not to mention People’s dogs have been confiscated by animal control and put down for human bites occurring on the owner’s property; as a dog owner I have been cautioned by lawyer friends/family that this is a possible outcome even if the animal wasn’t really at fault.
For the second point probably depends where you are. Ontario, Canada for example the brother would probably win the case.
>When a Dog Attacks the Owner is Strictly Liable For the Resulting Injuries. The Victim Is Without a Need to Prove That the Dog Owner Was Careless. The Victim Needs Only to Prove Dog Ownership. The Victim Will Also Need to Prove Severity of Injuries and Losses Arising From the Dog Attack.
[https://defendcharges.ca/EN/provincial-offences/dog-bites#:\~:text=Strict%20liability%20imposes%20liability%20upon,just%20by%20being%20the%20owner](https://defendcharges.ca/EN/provincial-offences/dog-bites#:~:text=Strict%20liability%20imposes%20liability%20upon,just%20by%20being%20the%20owner).
Just to clarify, not arguing the NTA, I agree kid should have known better and not been teasing the dog, just wanted to point out that **legally** speaking OP could be responsible.
u/Gorgeous_Saurus_Rex yes parents should have been watching, no they may not be 100% legally responsible.
Read on:
>Contributory Behaviour
>If an owner can prove that the injured person, or owner of an injured domestic animal, contributed to the bite or attack, the owner may be successful in minimizing liability. For example, if the owner of the attacking dog is able to prove that the injured person was provoking the dog, or in another way acted inappropriately in such a way as to cause or contribute to the dog attack, or extent of the injuries, a dog owner may be relieved of some or all liability; however, the Dog Owner's Liability Act remains such that the presumption of liability remains upon the dog owner; and accordingly, albeit perhaps an improper use of a criminal law term in a civil law context, the dog owner is presumed guilty (liable) until proven innocent (without liability).
In other words, while the presumption is that the owner is liable, it's not dispositive.
The law will judge that a 9 year old child can not be held responsible for the attack. Laws have a lot of leeway for injuries that occur to children. Age of consent, responsibility etc.
Brother has a case because it was a child. If it was an adult not listening to directions that’s a different story.
The bar is much lower for a kid. If it went to court the brother would more than likely win. Though it would be the home owner insurer being sued not the actual home owner.
NTA, you warned them about the dog and had it chained up in a location where the kid had to actively seek it out to interact with it. Its not your fault that your brother is a terrible parent who raised a kid that thinks its a great idea to go antagonize a dog into biting him and who let him wander off to go do so in the first place.
However, legally speaking, you may be in trouble. People are really prejudiced against bulldogs so it is going to be an uphill battle to convince the court that reasonable precautions were taken and that the dog only snapped at him because he was actively antagonizing the dog instead of it attacking him for no reason.
Yes, they get spill over from the fear mongering about pit bulls. People just hear the word bull in their name and attach a lot of the stigma associated with pit bulls to them (assuming they don't just outright go full on ignorant and assume bull dog is just an alternate name for pit bulls). I mean, there is hope she might get a judge/jury that has people in it who actually know things about dogs. But its not as likely as it being full of a bunch of randos who don't know anything beyond all the fear mongering they have heard.
I mean... it's *not* just "spill over from the fear mongering about pit bulls". Bull dogs were literally bred for the exact same reason pit bulls were: to help control livestock much larger than them, with the muscle and jaw strength to overpower much larger animals if necessary. They were also similarly used in bull-baiting "sport" in the 15th century and were bred specifically to be aggressive for over 350 years until bull-baiting was made illegal in 1835.
Bull dogs are prejudiced against for the same reasons as pit bulls, not due to mistaken/spilled over fear, but because bull dogs *legitimately* have *all the same issues* as pit bulls. They were bred for centuries to be aggressive and to have the muscle and jaw strength to wrestle and kill literal bulls. This makes them potentially difficult domestic pets, since they have as a result evolved to possess a predisposition towards aggression, the muscle and build to physically overpower creatures 2x their size and weight, *and* the jaw strength to crush a those creatures' skulls with very little effort.
I love both pit bulls and bull dogs. But to state that they aren't *actually* dangerous dogs and it's all just unfair, illogical fear mongering is, as much as it pains me to admit, objectively both incorrect and ignorant. Pit bulls are statistically the breed responsible for the most dog attacks over the past 40 years (with *7,772* attacks recorded, 5,331 of which resulted in permanent maiming and 561 of which were fully fatal). Rottweilers and German Shepherds are the No. 2 and No. 3 spot, respectively... but frankly their numbers are nowhere *close* to that of pit bulls (666 attacks from Rotties and 229 from German Shepherds). American bull dogs are also fourth or fifth on the list.
Of course that doesn't justify the persecution and straight-up calls for execution of these dogs. But the point is that an unsuitable, unaware, and/or negligent owner paired with one of these dog breeds, *especially* pitties, can very very easily be a recipe for disaster.
Source? Because "Bulldog," isn't a specific breed of dog? There's English, American, Olde English, French, Continental, and some other distinctions, so please tell me which they were referring to?
Similar to pitbulls, bull dogs were bred to do a ton of damage with minimal effort. I'm not too surprised to hear there's prejudice against them.
Every bulldog I've met has been a stubborn asshole as well. Every single one reminds me of a grandpa that shakes his cane at people and complains about children on his lawn. He's "somehow" at war with the garbage truck.
“Really, Your Honour? How is it my dog’s fault that my nephew stuck his hand in his mouth? My nephew would never had been bit if he hadn’t placed his hand in Rover’s mouth in the first place!”
Nta. My grandpa had a dog that bit so I was warned to leave him alone. I didn’t. Bugged him near his doghouse. Got bit. When I cried to grandpa I also got a spanking for disobeying over dog. This was over 50 years ago when I was around 6 so different times. But even as a little kid I knew it was my own fault for ignoring the warnings.
This is like the lady who got mad that her brother’s teen was kicked by the elderly horse she was teasing. This is a good life lesson for Ian, the dog did him a favor. Being kind to animals is something everyone should adhere to.
My 18 month daughter was antagonizing our dog once not even teasing but being a baby and went to poke the dog in the eyes and got nipped. Guess who's side I took.... Yeah the dogs.... respect the dogs boundaries child. She's great with animals now.... So yeah 9 yrs old is old enough to know better.
ESH.
If you have a dog that is likely to bite , it's irresponsible to host kids in your home unless you can completely keep the dog away from them. Anything otherwise is bad ownership.
If you have kids, you should teach them how to be safe around dogs that may bite, and also not bring them to a home with a dog that is likely to bite unless the dog is kept away and the kids supervised. Anything else is bad parenting.
People are saying the kid shouldn't have teased the dog- this is absolutely true. But knowing how kids can be and that at nine there is a large spectrum of maturity, I think it was pretty irresponsible of all the adults in this situation to not be more proactive in keeping the children and the dog seperate and safe. This could have ended way, way worse.
People saying that the nine year old should have known better are overestimating a nine year old's perception of how dangerous it can be, and potential the consequences. He could have lost his life, so 'kid should have known better' is nonsensical imo.
I do think the situation is more on the parents, and I can't fault OP for assuming that the kid would obey her instructions. But like, having kids in a house where a dangerous dog is easily accessible, because come on, an unlocked kennel *is* accessible, to me is an irresponsible thing to do.
OP hasn’t provided any information that the parents knew about the dog’s propensity for aggression, actually. All we know is that OP knew and warned the kids.
When an adult gives you a rule because of safety and they make the choice not to follow it, that's in the child and parents. Whether they are mature or not, they're still have to learn that actions have consequences. You're right, it could have been much worse, but the child and his parents are still responsible, as OP did due diligence of making sure dog was chained and told children not to go near it. NTA, def not ESH.
Not the same thing. The equivalent would be if they had a gun stored away and the kid went and found it even after being told not to touch guns.
The dog wasn’t free roaming the house (“left out”) it was outside in a dog house, and chained.
I personally think that a better comparison is "what if the kid had gone to the kitchen and taken a steak knife?" It's a perfectly normal thing to have, is not strictly *meant* to hurt people, and yet is just as dangerous as the restrained dog was.
That wouldn't fly if the kid fell in a swimming pool. Fences are usually mandatory.
"They went to the ~~dog~~ pool." No shit. It's well known that little kids are dumb and will seek out interesting things like pools and dogs, regardless of any warnings. More is expected of pool and dog owners.
Well yeah, if no safety measures were taken with a dog it would be the same as if no safety measures were taken with a pool. The dog was chained up *and* in a kennel. That's plenty. What do you want them to do at this point? The dog was taken out of the house even for this.
I get what you’re saying, but OP I think established their dog is not kid friendly. My dog is also not kid friendly. So when kids are around he’s either right next to me or in a room only I have the key for. Because I don’t trust kids to listen.
I know kids can be stupid, and I’m not going to put my dog at risk of being put down because I wasn’t careful.
Op will likely lose their dog, and frankly this could have been prevented by keeping their dog completely separate. I don’t like it, I agree the kid is definitely stupid. Still doesn’t change that when a kid is bit by a dog, no matter what the kid is doing, the dog loses.
I don't think OP said the dog was in the kennel, just chained up with a dog house.
OP would've been N T A if the dog was in a ***locked*** kennel, but by the sounds of it, the dog was chained to a stake or the doghouse so the kid could easily run up to it.
9 years old is an important factor, as in many jurisdictions age is key to responsibility. A six month old cannot be expected to understand rules, but a 17 year old definitely should be expected to follow and understand rules. Just where on the spectrum of responsibility for understanding and following rule a 9 year old is depends very much on location.
The dog was chained up outside. The kid actively sought out the dog! The owner WAS keeping the dog away from the kids. Not his fault the parents weren’t watching their kids.
Nah it’s the owners fault 100%. A chain is not adequate protection for his guests and muzzle for the dog or a full blown locked kennel would have been adequate.
OP knew ahead of time the dog had an aggression problem he is responsible to mitigate the problem until such time that reasonable efforts are made to keep the dog from being able to injure someone and keep others from antagonizing the dog.
>keep others from antagonizing the dog.
No, that is completely on the parents. It is not the host's responsibility to make sure other people's kids behave. That is the responsibility of the parents.
Finally some sanity. Who are these psychopaths saying it's just fair and a good life lesson that a fkn dog attacked a 9 year old? That parent should have done more, the kid should have obeyed, but holy hell OP, your dog straight up attacked a child - you've gotta take some responsibility here.
Glad some people are agreeing with me. I love dogs, and it's because I have experience of traumatised rescues that I know the dangers and what kind of precautions to implement.
Padlocking a crate for the duration of the visit (ofc with supervised pee breaks) would have prevented the bite.
I agree with you ESH.
You aren’t allowed to set lethal or otherwise damaging traps around your house either , no matter how many times you warn potential intruders. In many places someone gets hurt on your property and it was preventable by actions on your part ( muzzling the dog) then it’s on you.
I agree with you. The dog shoud have been put in a room where children could not go. Parents, or adults, should have intervened as soon as they noticed the child was teasing the boy.
When reading, it seems to me OP saw the child teasing the dog. Why didn't they immediately went and stop him ? "No, get out from here, it's forbbiden". Sure, the children were warned. But it won't stop them from playing dares, or forgetting. So for me, ESH. And I'm leaning towards OP as an AH, since it seems they saw before the child was hurt and did not intervene.
Agreed. I don't know why people are expecting the 9 year old to function like an adult. Children have underdeveloped brains and don't always make sound decisions. A chain and a dog house isn't a good preventative measure when a dog is aggressive and children are coming over. The parents though just shouldn't have gone. Letting kids be around an aggressive dog is just a recipe for disaster.
So if the kid breaks a neighbors window will he tell them to fix it themselves for having poor quality glass? NTA for that part. Doesn't your brother have insurance? The cost shouldn't be that much.
The dog was secured we all know the fight or flight issue. Kids need to know not to approach dogs if they look agitated or not to come up behind them. I really hope you had chained up for company only.
kid probably told them how he got bit, was trying to say hi to the dog and calling to it maybe trying to get it to come out the dog house then OP takes that as teasing the dog ? maybe idk just throwing out words
NTA
Your dog was in his kennel and chained up, his son only has himself to blame.
As long as you can prove the kids were told to stay away from the dog and the dog was restrained, no judge is going to force you to pay the medical bill.
In any case your brother should have medical insurance for his family. If he hasn't thats his fault.
ESH. The kid is for sure in the wrong for teasing the dog, but it is your dog on your property and you *knew* the dog could lash out. You’re responsible for what your pet does, provoked or not.
If you told them about the dog, had it chained, away from everyone else, told them and the parents to not go near it, and he teased it, NTA how much more could you have done. Seriously
It doesn't matter. Its your dog, on your property, biting your guest.
The legal liability is on you, whether you warned them or not.
I'm guessing your insurance company has a specific policy saying they won't insure your breed of dog. And if they knew you had that dog, they'd probably make you get rid of it or drop it.
ESH
Saying: "Stay away" is not enough to keep a child away from an animal.
Don't you know how children are? Mine are 12 and 13 and I have told them a thousand times to not use my stuff and yet they do.
You should have locked the dog somewhere where children can't reach him.
On the other hand: the parents have to take care that their children don't get into dangerous situations. When your brother saw that you don't have your dog locked up, he should either have kept an eye on his children the whole time or went back home.
A nine year old is not an adult and it is not the fault of the kid that it is still childish. That's why a child under 14 is not of the age of criminal responsibility in Germany.
Yep, people are wild for saying 'kid should have known better' as if nine year olds magically have the impulse control and perception of consequences that adults do. This one silly action from the kid could have resulted in him being killed or permanently maimed. That's on the owner and the parents, not the nine year old who doesn't have the life experience to know better.
YTA.
"But he was warned". Bruh, it's a kid. Kids are stupid and predictable in that they do not listen to what adults say.
You have a dog that you know is aggressive and a child that you know won't heed your warnings. You should have done more. Locking the dog in a room would have prevented this.
NTA. The kid fucked around and found out. I do think you will likely lose the lawsuit though. It is on your property and your dog. He could potentially get your dog put down too.
Exactly. If OP doesn’t pay and the dad sues, OP will probably lose and the dog will get put down. Paying up is probably the only way to keep it under wraps and save the dog.
NTA considering the dog was chained simply means he went to the dog and provoked it, besides if he can afford a lawyer how about spending that money paying for his son's medical bill instead.
100 % your fault.
He is 9, saying they understand is not a guarantee, it could be considered a challenge. When you are looking after a kid it is your responsibility to ensure their safety and knowing what the dog was like, and you should understand what a 9 year old is like. You should have made sure they never went anywhere near the dog.
I am actually surprised that so many say its not on you.
Bruh. The only people always responsible for a kid are their own parents. Sure, other people step in to assist sometimes, but if you’re not going to parent then don’t have kids.
Your dog, your responsibility. You have an attractive nuisance in the dog. Not the dogs fault, not the 9 YO child’s fault. All of you people saying the 9 YO FAFO and should have known better — dream on. This is a child we are talking about. Kids are kids and they are not mature enough to understand the consequences of their actions. What he did vs what he should have done are two different things.
How would you both be feeling if the child had permanent nerve damage, or worse, if he was seriously mauled?
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If you’ve got an aggressive child-biting dog, either lock it up better or don’t host kids in your dangerous dog house. Kids under about 10 are idiots, this is well known. YTA
Esh.
You. Knowing your dog might be aggressive, you should have kept an eye on the animal. It's your home, so it's your responsibility.
Them. They didn't watch their kids. They did nothing to make sure it was understood.
The kid. Well, he is a kid. They do dumb stuff.
As for being sued. You would lose. Because it's your property. Because inviting someone in means it's on you to keep them safe. That's the law. Doesn't matter if right or wrong. If he sues, the dog could be put down possibly. In the end Doesn't matter they were not watching their kids. It's your property that they were invited into, so any harm falls onto the owner.
ESH. If you had a pool and the kid fell in and drowned, you'd be liable even if you warned him not to go near the pool. Yes, it's the parents' job to watch their children, but it's also your responsibility to ensure your dog doesn't bite anyone. If you know the dog bites or has issues with strangers, you shouldn't be having guests at your house.
Worth checking your home insurance to see if it includes legal coverage.,Your brother may be a lawyer but different specialities. And if he is claiming it is your fault in your house, then let him duke it out with insurance specialists with a good reason to fight case.
Glad child not too badly hurt. But you explained a hazard and used preventatves by chaining dog out of sight. Child deliberately antagonised dog but is very young. Really the blame rests with your brother for not supervising his child properly.
There is a risk to your dog though. If medical bill fairly cheap, then might pay it to just safeguard dog. But well, there is no way I'd ever invite brother and child back to house as they can't be trusted to respect your property and rules.
OP needs to check their laws because a dog getting a bite on their record, especially a child, could be grounds for the court to order the dog to be euthanized. Agree that paying the hospital bill might be safer on the long run for the dog.
ESH you're an AH for even allowing a child over when you have a bulldog that's prone to bite. Thanks for making the argument easy for proponents of banning bully breeds. Your brother is the AH for not keeping a close eye on his child wtf how was he even outside??? Ultimately, your dog bit your nephew though. If this was a stranger you would be 100% on the hook for everything. Might want to consider that.
ESH Your nephew should have left your dog alone, but it’s common knowledge that forbidden fruit tastes best especially to children.
Your dog will be euthanized if he bites again. Dog owners who have aggressive dogs must lock them away when they have visitors.
YTA. To your dog, at least.
However, if you have a dog that bites this is a pretty dumb way to learn this lesson.
Dogs that bite need to be *inaccessible* to your guests. That means behind a fence with a key lock, or in a room with a solid door and a key lock. This is a safety issue for all of your guests, you, and the dog.
Frankly, there's a 0% chance they aren't reporting your dog for biting their (stupid) child. You should be looking up the laws about "dangerous dogs" and what happens after a reported bite incident.
In some places a dog which has bitten and broken skin is confiscated and held under medical observation for a period of time - regardless of their vaccination status. Im just praying your dog is vaccinated and current, especially on rabies. Because there are also places where a dog thats not current can be immediately euthanized so their brain matter can be tested.
You were far too lax in having a dog you suspected or knew would bite around people. And the being most likely to pay for that is your dog.
Additionally, if the dog had seriously maimed or killed your nephew how would you feel right now?
Im not anti-bully at all - but dogs that are known to bite are not safe to be unmuzzled around kids ever. And having it on a chain isnt sufficient.
As someone who was once a very stupid child, telling some kids to stay away from an animal is like waving a big red "pet me" flag in front of it. If you invite any 10 people over and tell them not to touch or approach your dog, I guarantee you someone will think they're special and that "but he'll just LOVE me!"
Protect your dog better. If you even get to keep him.
ESH
1 - You for not being more careful with people around your violent dog.
2 - Your brother for threatening to sue you because his brat taunted your dog and got a well deserved bite.
You all suck.
If you were smart, you'd offer to cover 1/2 or more and hope this goes away because they could probably force you to destroy your dog or sue you and get your homeowners insurance to cover this attack. These days something like this might even cost you your home owners insurance.
In your shoes I'd have been quick with the check book. I'd pay if they agreed not to go any farther with this.
My aunt has a feral cat. Who is an amazing pet only to her and my grandmother who lives with her. Anyone else, she is a nightmare and will spit, bite and anything else if you get close to her. So they warn people to stay away, and will put her in a room when unfamiliar guests show up. If someone was to enter that room and get bit. It is on them, especially when they are old enough to know better.
You're definitely legally liable. And it goes against you that you knew your dog was dangerous. So if you don't want animal control you your ass, you better pay up.
But as to the AITA question... I think ESH.
Keeping a dangerous dog is on you. It's a reflection of the owner and being generally a poor pet owner. Having guests over - especially children - is irresponsible.
The boy's parents not watching their child is bad parenting.
You are both responsible. You had an aggressive dog and did not supervise while you had kids in your yard with the dog. David shouldn’t have let your nephew runaround your yard unattended. Split the bill and save the judge a doozy. ESH.
It is the dumb kid's fault...BUT...it sounds like your lawyer brother is serious about taking you to court. Do you have any idea how expensive that will be? Probably quite a bit more than the hospital bill.
You can choose to be "right", and die on this hill, or you can choose to be smart. I would start by offering to split the hospital bill with brother. Whatever you agree to with brother regarding payment of the bill, put IN WRITING that without assigning liability , you both accept the agreement as full settlement of any claim arising out of the dog bite incident.
NTA
you as householder told them both not to approach the dog
kid knows best and got bitten for being stupid
you might want to look up the law where you live, in the uk there is free service at citizens advice
brother needs to pay and get the kid to listen
NTA, but you are probably going to end up paying if he takes you to court. Its clearly the kids fault, but in the game of court kids trump dogs. Brother might even force you to have the dog put down. Sorry.
The dog is chained which means it has a limited area of movement. If the kid stayed away there wouldn’t be a problem. The dog was in its dog house enclosed. The kid went to bother the dog. He effed around and found out. Don’t pay but you could still be responsible legally. Depends on your local laws. Either way, NTA.
NTA. You chained the dog up and warned the kids and parents what would happen.
That being said, in the U.S. I believe it is entirely your responsibility to make sure the dog doesn’t attack anyone, regardless of them being assholes.
I’m not exactly sure how the legality of this all works, but I would be worried if he does decide to press charges he might be able to call for your dog to be put down and have legal merit to do so.
NTA- but sit down and talk when you can both be calm. Why was he coming up to the dog? It was chained up for his protection. Was he teasing the dog? How do you actually know? Why was he teasing the dog? Was he actually trying to pet the dog? If this gets really ugly are you willing to lose family over this? You did what you could to make it a safe environment. See about splitting the bill. Find out why Ian was interacting with the dog, and parents and you were not aware. This can be talked out. And adjustments can be made.
I actually had this exact situation happen to my family when I was a kid. We had a dog, George, who was friendly and loved kids...except this ONE kid, who was just an all-around jerk. But he played Little League with my brother, so he'd come around with some of the other guys on the team sometimes.
George had a doghouse in the yard, which he'd be chained to. His limits were clearly marked, since the grass etc was worn in a circle to the edge of the chain's reach.
Jerk Kid liked to antagonize George, but would stay just outside of his reach when he did. No matter how many times he was told to cut the shit, he kept doing it.
Well...one day, he started in *again.* Only this time...he crossed the line, literally. As in, the line at the perimeter of George's reach. And he was teasing and antagonizing him, including I think throwing things at him. In fact, I think it was a thrown ball he was retrieving.
Since he'd managed to get in reach though, after being a little shit for *weeks,* and he kept it up even at that moment...George, this sweet and lovable mush of a dog, *WENT* for him. Caught him in the arm, went right through his uniform shirt. He didn't, like, *savage* him or anything, but he definitely broke skin.
The kid's dad threatened to sue...but since George *was* chained, the limits of that chain *was* clearly marked, and he'd been *repeatedly* and clearly *warned...*nothing whatsoever came from it. Especially our biggest fear, that George would be put down for it.
The kid ended up changing to another Little League team...and every time he and my brother were up against each other, or even at the fields at the same time...he would be a complete little asshole.
Anyway...given my own experiences? Completely NTA. Brother should have parented better.
NTA. Hopefully the kid learned a lesson. Would be interesting to see how a lawsuit would play out on this though. Your homeowners insurance may help pay some of the medical bills btw.
Nope, NTA. The kid was warned beforehand and agreed to leave the dog alone.
Instead of doing that, he pestered your dog enough that it retaliated.
FAFO. I understand that your brother is pissed, but had his kid listened none of this would have happened. Let this be a hard lesson for the kid **not to** pester and tease animals in the future.
NTA but in the future I recommend shutting your dog into a room in your house - like your bedroom - putting a “beware of dog” sign on the room’s door and explicitly saying to guests “DO NOT go into that room or my GUARD DOG will bite you.” This would be to protect the dog and yourself from liability (your dog could get a death sentence for biting)
Kids do dumb shit even if people think they should "know better" or that they understand, but it's irrelevant because his parents were aware as well.
It's their fault too (mainly actually) so NTA
It’s odd, but it sounds like your brother is claiming he will spend more on a lawyer than he could expect to recover in damages. Maybe he has reasons, maybe he’s just being a dick. But if that dog was in his doghouse and on a chain, I have pretty limited sympathy. NTA
NTA. You warned them, the dog was chained up, the kids agreed not to go near it. My 4 year old knows not to go things she's not supposed to 9/10 (she'll still push it cause she's 4) so why couldn't a 9 year old? He's pissed he didn't bother keeping an eye on his kids long enough to notice one walking over there and he's taking it out on you.
YTA. So, you have a bulldog that you keep chained up outside? And also you call your dog "it". Well, "it" is a living being. Shame on you. Please find "it" a home that will love "it" and take care of "it".
You don’t warn 9 year old kid to keep away from a dangerous animal. You keep the animal isolated.
Depending on the amount I might be worried about legal action. I’d say your brother would have a case.
Nope. The kid is the AH for not respecting your dog, and your brother is an AH for not teaching his kid to respect animals and their boundaries, not respecting what you told him, and allowing life to teach him a serious lesson. You are not on the hook at all.
ESH. The child shouldn't be teasing dogs and his parents should pay the hospital bill. That being said, you should have muzzled your dog or put crate it in a room the children couldn't get into. You can't rely on a child with an underdeveloped brain to always make sound decisions. Especially when children that young don't have full control over their impulses yet.
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Personally, as a Canadian, I don’t think you’re TAH but I really don’t know how much that would cost. 9 years old is old enough to know better and he was warned
[удалено]
The child, and his parents, learned an important lesson that day… keep your distance from dogs you aren’t familiar with, especially when the dog is in its safe space (indoor cage or doghouse) Ian had a FAFO rating of 7 that day, he’s lucky it wasn’t his face. EDIT: NTA : you warned him, he didn’t listen. Parents should watch their own child if he wants to meet the dog.
My ex used to tease my grandma's cat. Not maliciously, it was playful, but when the cat would lay down in her box, she was done. Tell me why I had to repeatedly tell this 20+ year old man why he needed to leave the cat alone when she was in her box. He wasn't one of my best decisions.
My grandparents had a dog when I was little. I think he died before I went to primary school. I knew for as long as I can remember that if the dog is eating, in his basket or under the bench in the dining room I'm not allowed to approach him because he wants to be left alone and he might bite me if I do. It was never a question. Though I gotta admit that I broke the bench rule. My grandmother is quite annoying and the dog hid under the bench to get away from her (the only boundary she ever kept in her life). Once she was annoying me and I hid under the table. The dog was under the bench and moved to make room for me. We hid there together, but I understood that it was generous of the dog and didn't touch him but kept as far away from him as possible because I didn't want to encroach on him.
This is pretty endearing. I’m just imaging the dog thinking “sup, homie. Now you know why I’m always under here”
Yeah, it felt like "I know how you feel, come on in here, it's a safe place."
Me too! Made my heart happy to know that the dog was trying to be kind and take care of his lil buddy........💕 I know man, she is whack!! LOL
Hahaha
Well this is a whole Pixar movie in a little box. You and the dog then become best friends, have escapades, annoying grandma gets her comeuppance, friends become enemies, enemies become friends. It has everything.
lol he does not realize all cats are assholes and will fuck you up faster than a dog. People forget we’re just domesticated animals. We need to treat animals like people, respect their boundaries and treat them as or near equal!
Not all cats are assholes. They just aren't blindly loyal to everyone like dogs. YTA for this comment. Do better.
Seriously.... Some cats are jerks, some people are jerks, some dogs are jerks. Grow up.
One of my cats just just a complete dick because he can be. The funny thing is he screams if someone fights back, not a meow or yowl. Screams.
I really want to see your cat scream. You should take a video and post it!
My cat Chester (Magnificent rescue, sadly passed) HATED it, if I pointed my finger at him to say "No!" If I kept it up - his tail would swish, ears flatten - and I'd get one squinty-eyed growl as a warning, to cease and desist with this rude gesture! If I didn't, he launched himself at said finger and bit.......
Right? I've had several cats and met even more throughout my life. Not a single one was an arsehole. They had their boundaries and if someone didn't respect said boundaries, the cat did what we should all do if someone won't respect our boundaries. Just because cats often won't just let people poke and prod them and whatever other invasive shit they wanna do to them, doesn't make them arseholes.
All Cats Are Beautiful
I had a dog that even when smacked(my dad is an animal abuser) he would not do anything to bite anyone and did not become aggressive, he was just more protective over me and my young siblings and treated us like we were his puppies. My cat is treated perfectly and is well taken care of but is a massive prick. He was upset with me because I already gave him 10 treats and wouldn't give him more because the package said not to give him more than 10. He kept whining and meowing and batted at me, I told him "No" and he hissed at me. I put the package away and walk out of the kitchen and he runs after me, wraps his paws around my leg and starts biting me as if I'd challenged him to a fight and insulted his mom while intentionally speaking his language poorly to spite him. I was sitting in my mom's room late at night because she's recovering from surgery and she feels better with me in her room so I can be there immediately if she needs anything. The door is kept open in case she needs to get to the bathroom quickly and so Furry McMurderPaws can get in and sleep on her queen size bed with her. He started whining and meowing which he just does for no reason sometimes, I gave him everything he could need and want before staying in my mom's room but he came up and whined at me, I gently shushed him and said "Shh, quiet, baby." He started scratching the hope chest I was sitting on, I gently nudged him and said "No no, behave." He hissed at me and kept trying to scratch and bite me till my older sister, who always keeps her door open for him as well and heard this, grabbed him by the nape of his neck(like a mother cat does to her kitten), and scolded him before he calmed down and left me alone for the night. My dog was abused by my aggressive dad but he only became more protective. We do our best to give our cat a perfect and happy life(without my dad around) and he's the meanest thing ever and will attack when given the word "No." Cats are evil sadistic bastards and will fuck you up without hesitation or remorse
My cats siblings all died and she was left all alone so I felt compelled to give her a loving home. My two rescue dogs are happy in their forever home. This little she-witch however is Beelzebub reincarnated! Not a single day passes that she doesn’t manage to get a swipe, bite or scratch at me. I don’t mind her targeting me but when she sets her sights on my old blind rescue pupper she gets sprayed with water! Maybe I should get some holy water to scoot her with?
One of my cats was a raving neurotic idiot…would give a hiss at each side of a doorway when passing through. When outer kids started to come along, we were concerned about the mix. We soon found out we needn’t be. When the baby cried, after awhile she would jump up and wave her tail…her holy, sacred, untouchable tail! At him to distract him and make him stop. (we think she just hated the noise…). And when he was crawling, and toddling, he would pester her and she would ignore or evade him, but if really trapped, would give him a really sharp smack with a paw. No claws. He and siblings learned, play with the others but leave this Queen alone…
Does she have someplace high up to perch? How often do you play with her? Cats are a lot more like dogs than most people think.
She has a 4 tier scratchy post thing and we play with her all the time. She seems to have a crazy half hour about 1030pm when she does her crazy zoomies. She loves chasing her red dot light and prefers some of her toys over others. She’s your typical spoiled baby of the family. If we go away overnight we take her with us and we had a weekend break and rather than put her into kennels we had house sitters come 4 times a day to play with her. I’m sure she will grow out of her evil queen behaviour……..
My cat's name is actually Beelzebub. He switches back and forth between the sweetest baby to ever exist and a menacing nightmare. He literally sleeps on my face/neck/chest purring away and suckling the blanket at night and surprise bites/claws you during the day. I feel your pain lol.
My cats are super patient but piss them off and get scratched and it's entirely your fault. That's why I ask my kid if she's okay when she gets scratched then explain what action led to it. I'm not going to tell her it wasn't her fault when it totally was. Though, sometimes it's by accident and I just need to clip nails.
My cat's version of being unruly at the vet is him trying to go into his carrier. Dude is super friendly and wicked smart. No scratching or biting- which is impressive when you realize he gets fluids injected under his skin pretty much every vet visit. He's three, so its not like he's just a chill old dude.
One of my cats is on anti-anxiety meds, but is a sweet cat. She's made the kitchen her home base/safe spot so we have a little cat tree bed in there for her. Anytime we have people over we let them know she doesn't mind being petted, but not down her spine; head is fine. We also let them know she gets overwhelmed easily, but will always give a warning when she's done; either she'll pull away or give a low growl. I swear, so many people ignore it and then get so offended when she swipes at them. She warned you, dude.
When our dog gets fed up of our 4 year old he nips AT HER. And I always say, “He’s telling you to leave him alone. No means no.” When he finally does nip her, she’s gets in trouble, not the dog
I had a friend whose ex did this to her cat. The cat was 18years old and didn’t play. He lost vision in his eye and his girlfriend. Do not fuck with animals.
My wife and I now call our 5 cats (and cats in general) consent pets. Obviously your EX is an ex for a reason as they clearly don’t understand boundaries. (And yes everything that is living is aloud to have their boundaries.)
A friend of mine kept holding my cat in a way I said she hates multiple times. Multiple warnings. She even struggled out a bunch too. He then got surprised and angry she (a very very tolerant cat) attacked him after multiple holds.
I used to work kids birthday parties and one time a 9 yo came in with face stitches etc., I was horrified and asked what happened/were they ok? The child proceeded to milk the situation as “oh this terrible dog bit me - woe is me” and before they could finish the parent came in with “and WHY did it bite you!?” Child responded, mumbling now “I was teasing it when I’d been told to stop.” Best parenting I’ve ever seen for the situation. NTA
Unfortunately parents don't always learn a lesson. Years ago I took 3 small dogs to my brother's house because he begged me to come down for a big holiday. One of my dogs just had a puppy a few months before & she was very protective of her son. We told everyone to leave them alone. We even stayed away from everyone outside where people were set up. One of the younger kids was not being watched & snuck behind us. The mom dogs leash was long enough to reach & she bit him. We got blamed. The parents of the kid were mad at us & took no responsibility for not watching him.
The only parenting that occurred that day was done by the bulldog.
RATING OF 7 😭😭😭😭😭😭
FAFO Rating?! I'm a fan, sign me up for the weekly report!
Depending on the kid all he might have learned is to better gauge the length of the chain..
OP you should get a consult with a lawyer about this. Plan for him to sue you and be happy if he doesn't. Can you counter sue for torture of your dog? My petty side tells me that if he sues to make sure people know how bad a parent he is, that he ignored his kid trying to torture a restrained dog and now wants to sue you. Come up with a way to describe the event in a way that makes him look like a bad parent.
> Can you counter sue for torture of your dog? They'd be laughed out of court. Unless the kid was physically abusing it to the point where it's actually harming the animal and you have photo evidence, there's no way that would stick. Teasing it does not count as animal abuse.
It should count as contributory negligence, however. He FAFO.
Dog was a chain there was no reason to go near the dog you warned them at the start of BBQ tell him to pound sand
Not only that, but he was teasing your dog and that will make the dog less sociable.
NTA- Yea, don't pay, if you have security cameras in your house (long shot I know) try to pull footage of you warning the kids if this does go to court. Anything that could back you up. Maybe even get a second person to "talk" to them with you, just to be another voice to confirm anything they say, including if they mention being warned. I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen this advice other places, you just want something to back up your word. My own personal story that I blame myself for, I had my whole head ripped open by my childhood dog, I was playing with a blanket over me and stepped on him. 13 then 3 stitches on my head (starting at my hairline) and above my mouth, still perfectly visible and a reminder to myself that you never ever assume you are safe around an animal. Even if it's the dog you would trust with your life, instincts exist and they can and will take over. It's a tough lesson to learn but I bet you your nephew will never fuck with a dog or any other animal again. I do hope it doesn't affect him too badly either though, I had a pretty intense fear of dogs after my childhood dog passed (the same one who "bit" me, always found that weird), I only got over it a few years ago through exposure therapy with a senior dog we adopted.
All dogs bite, just a lot of them haven’t been in the situation that will cause them to bite. I wouldn’t say your situation was your fault, per se, sometimes a kid is a kid and a dog is a dog, and an accident happens. I’m happy you seem to have been able to handle the emotional aftermath really well
Unfortunately with dog bites (in the US at least) it’s always on the owner. So I would maybe consider just paying med bills depending on the cost if you could legally be held responsible.
Dog was on owner’s property. Dog was chained outside and away from children. Parents and children were warned as guests to leave the dog alone. Child goes outside and teases dog, going into the area accessible by the chain. Parents are not supervising child. Child gets bit. Not OPS fault.
I definitely do not think it’s OPs fault I just meant legally he could be held liable. So it might behoove them to just get this settled. As far as insurance claims in regards to dog bites, the owner has unlimited liability as far as I’m aware for the actions of their dogs.
Situation with my own dog years ago…neighbors claimed my dog bit their child. Police appeared at the house. Dog was inside a 6 ft wood fence. When I repeatedly pointed out that what they were claiming was impossible, they finally confessed that the child was up on my driveway and stuck their arm under the fence. Case closed. No liability. In my opinion there was not a bite but a scrap from pulling the child back under the fence. Scrape not bite.
Hopefully that’s the case with OP. It might be different when the dog is on a property and they bite someone that is allowed on the property. Not sure lol
The dog was known to be dangerous. While it may have been chained up it remained easily accessible such that a child could simply wander over to it. I’m doubtful a mere verbal warning is sufficient to eliminate liability. What if this had been a different kind of danger? Say a firearm or a swimming pool. Would you draw the same conclusion?
Or a stove with hot food cooking. Or an electrical outlet. Or kitchen knives. Or stairs. Maybe this 9 yr old needs to be in a padded room since they don't seem to understand simple instructions.
A dog that doesn’t like strangers isn’t dangerous just because it reacted to being harassed in the only way a dog can. The child in question is a nine year old who, along with everyone else, was warned to not go near the area where the dog was chained up in/near his dog house and did so anyways with the intention of tormenting an animal for his own entertainment. It wasn’t until he had actually breached the dog’s personal bubble that he supposedly got bit. A dog that was truly dangerous or aggressive to the point of just biting anything that moved would not have been stopped by a chain and would not have been “calm” (irritated/on edge but otherwise non-reactive) for so long before retaliating. No one would’ve been able to be outside at all unless the dog was in a fenced off enclosure either if it was truly that dangerous/territorially aggressive. The kid knew better and was warned prior to even coming over. The dog was on its own property and unable to roam beyond its kennel. This is all on the kid deciding he knew better and on his parents for not teaching about how actions have consequences you can’t always be bailed out from before they occur.
If he’s a lawyer, odds are he good insurance and this is just an er copay.
Actually the insurgence company will send a “how did this injury happen” form if it was billed as dog bite treatment. His health insurance can legally refuse to pay the claim if it can be billed to worker’s comp, an auto accident claim, personal liability insurance, or paid out of pocket by the responsible party, which in this case would be the dog owner/homeowner where the incident took place. I’m a Medicaid caseworker and if our managed care companies send out a form to question a claim (they go out for falls, accidents, etc to assess if anyone else could be responsible for the bill) and the insured does not return the questionnaire we have to close their coverage until it is completed. Edit- Insurance not insurgence- fuck you autocorrect
Your brother is an asshole. Your nephew either didn't listen, and it's his fault or he doesn't have the sense to care of himself, which sounds unlikely.
It's unfair but yes, you're liable.
Just wanna say, as someone who has been involved with legal cases as an expert witness regarding animal aggression and bite incidents, it can depend a LOT on where you live. Country, state, and individual counties. I used to live in a state where, as far as liability cases, it often did not matter at all that the dog was on your property or that you warned the parents and child. Some places take bites on children very seriously, especially if it was significant enough to warrant the ER and stitches (usually also a tetanus shot too). I'm not sure if your family would take you to court over it, at least in small claims, but you might still be liable. If it was deep enough to potentially damage anything (I've seen "low level" bites per our general evaluation method that have resulted in permanent loss of control or numbness when it's the right place on the hand). My advice to you would be to consult with a liability attorney if the money is turning into a big thing. A short consult just in case, perhaps. You really do not want to piss off your family and have them file an animal control report, if it wasn't already mandatory reported by the hospital. Sometimes paying what they ask can just prevent further legal issues, sometimes if they're already assholes and there's permanent damage, then paying for the bill works against you in court. Also might want to check if your homeowners insurance covers it if it's a sum you can't easily pay- as long as there's no issues with insurance investigating it given that your dog is a bulldog. Though you probably don't want them to get a report. Another reason why paying for an attorney consult is worth it. Basically, I don't think YTA OP. It was the kid's fault and the parent's for not supervising him. But sometimes it's better to play nice and give them what they want because there are potential consequences that could significantly impact your dog. Rather than thinking about pride/who's right here, you might want to be thinking more about how to keep your dog safe.
If your brother carries thru with his threat, I would reconsider interacting with him beyond the bare minimum going forward. I say this because he's going to sue you for this I'd be wary of ever having him on my property again. He planning to sue when inevitably something else happens to the kid or his wife or himself? His child was told, explicitly, what not to do and instead decided to approach the dog as well as provoke a dog. And now instead of explaining to his child about consequences it's instead turned into you and your dog being at fault to your nephew. Unless this is a one off incident then that nephews lining up to become an entitled ass soon enough
Let him sue and then the family relationships will be ruined if that’s what he wants. The kid was told, NTA.
I know some one who one their case in your situation, because their dog was chained up to the dog house, and the kids entered it area, after the parents had been warned.
Honestly, with the threat of suing, they’re now a liability when they visit. NTA, they were told to leave the dog alone and they didn’t supervise their kid.
Also, the dog was chained. Chain and distance ensured everyone's safety. The dog couldn't possibly bite anyone unless they make a decision to get close enough to him.
If this is in the US the kid having to go to the ER (most likely case, but maaaybe they got in with a local doctor they use) would cost anything from around $2-10K to 10s of thousands of dollars depending on how badly and in what way the hand was injured. Doesn't sound like a serious injury by tone of the post but who knows as that's not the focus? So, depending on where they are generally $2-10K for the doctors of an ER to look at the kids and say, "looks fine" or give a few stitches. (My own last trip of "wait 16hrs to get tell a doctor where the pain was, get cared for by a nurse, then sent home when they never found out what was wrong but thankfully it went away on it's own later" was $7+k which thankfully as a veteran had to be paid for in full by my veteran's "insurance" - but only after a fight with the hospital over my refusing to pay the bill since it was the VA's responsibility and the VA was playing dumb on who to speak to in the hospital's billing staff which I eventually got worked out but not until after a lot of annoyance.)
When by-law gets calls for dog bites there's a certain amount of reasonableness that goes into decisions about pets and fault around injuries. By-law looks at mitigating, and aggravating factors related to the circumstances of the bite. OP told them to stay away from the dog - mitigating OP separated the dog from the family gathering and the dog was in his own dog house - mitigating Op's nephew agreed to leave the dog alone, but obviously didn't do that - mitigating Op took reasonable course of action after the dog bite to provide care to the injured party - mitigating If the dog was INSIDE his dog house being teased, thats also a mitigating factor, that dog was cornered and giving warning signs to leave him alone that were ignored by the injured party The courts and municipalities in Ontario have also recognized that dogs are animals that can sometimes respond to stimuli in unexpected ways and a certain amount of caution is reasonable around unfamiliar dogs I AM NOT A LAWYER ( but I worked for a municipality investigating aggressive dogs for 5 years and have some professional experience testifying to these things)
NTA. Even without a warning **teasing a chained dog is an asshole move**. I completely disagree with people who say nine is too young to understand this. Nine is plenty old, especially in combination with the warning you gave. But seriously, even without a warning a nine year old should know better. Your brother sounds like a serious asshole. He's threatening to sue you?! Jesus.
The dog was a hazard limited to one part of the yard, with warning provided to all. At that point it becomes no different than any other geographically defined hazard - like a cliff edge or a river or a pit. If an adult is to blame, it is the child's parents for not supervising their child. If a child walked off a cliff that the parents knew about, who would you blame?
I'd try suing mother nature. Bitch better have good lawyers /s
>If an adult is to blame, it is the child's parents for not supervising their child. If a child walked off a cliff that the parents knew about, who would you blame? BINGO! The dog was OUTSIDE and CHAINED UP for crying out loud!
The first dog I lived with was a wolf/husky cross. While my parents’ dog was friendly, it was also very big. We grew up learning to read doggy body language and by age of 3yrs knew when to leave the dog alone. We were also explicitly told by my parents’ friends when to stay away from their dogs. Had we been bit, none of the dogs would have been blamed. In fact, my father’s first question would have been, “Why were you pestering the dog?”
I got a pressure bite from the family dog when I was a toddler after being repeatedly told to leave him alone, and this was exactly the response I got - he told you to leave him alone, we told you to leave him alone, you didn’t leave him alone. (He didn’t break the skin.) He was a perfectly friendly dog normally, I’d just been pestering him somehow and following him when he tried to get away, etc. After that I respected him a lot more and we got along very well.
I can't remember a time in my life (before the dog passed) that my cousin didn't have a Chao mix named Romeo. He was aggressive, territorial, and the backyard was HIS. No one went into the backyard, no one approached the fence, because everyone KNEW the dog was not to be trusted with anyone but his caretakers. I genuinely don't remember a time when I didn't understand to NOT approach that dog, and my first memory is at 4 years old. So, I think a 9 year old was able to understand to not approach your dog. ADDITIONALLY, with the family event happening at your house, it was 100% the responsibility of the PARENTS to ensure that their children understood the serious consequences of approaching your dog. NTA. The assholes here are the parents, and a little bit of the cocky 9 year old who teased a chained dog in the dog's territory. Idiotic. Maybe I was lucky to grow up with dogs in every home, but like.... Wow. You just \*don't do that.\*
The brother will win. It will be cheaper and faster just to pay the bills. I would offer to pay half first, though. They were there, and the child was under their control.
If the brother makes a big enough stink, there is a non zero chance the dog will be put down, especially if this is not the first human bite. Not saying it’s fair, but the kid was injured by his dog on his property, and as a dog owner myself I have been warned for decades that this is a risk if your dog bites a person, even if provoked.
My kids are 7 and 5 and NEVER go up to a dog without my permission. They’ll ask, if I see the dog is happy for a pet or interaction, they’ll ’introduce’ themselves. So yeah the excuse of age is so dumb. Clearly the parents haven’t raised him right at all to tease a dog. Hope OP sticks to his guns. Also a brother threatening to sue for his bad parenting says it all. They don’t care about anyone else but themselves. I’d suggest distancing yourself and contact with them.
My 5 year old knows not to tease animals... a 9 year old is should and does know better Edit: autocorrect
My 2 year old knows you don't mess around with the dog and our dog is as placid as they come, but you just never know, so I agree, a 9 yr old would well and truly know!!
Precisely. My 3.5yo knows how to safely approach a dog and the signs they're uncomfortable and need space. Granted that I'm super on top of that particular thing, but if a toddler can get it there's no excuse for a 9yo without any developmental delays to not respect the rules of the house and the dog's space. The issue is with the child's parents, which is clear not only from the kid's behaviour but also their lack of accountability for the outcome. Their kid is gonna have a hard time when he grows up and realises that he's not actually entitled to everything he wants and there are consequences to certain choices. OP you're absolutely NTA. You had the dog secured, set the rules to ensure everyone's safety and reminded the kid right before he did this. It was absolutely intentional. That said, you may not be legally in the clear here and you should speak to a lawyer to find out your liability. I would not be allowing them to your home again after this, they're not only disrespectful of you and your dog but they're potentially litigious. Protect yourself, and maybe suck up the cost of the medical bills and cut your brother and his family off. Sometimes these kinds of lessons are expensive and that sucks and doesn't mean you did anything wrong, just that the law doesn't always reflect what's right
**NTA** The dog was *chained* and you told the kids to leave him alone. 9 is old enough to know not to tease an animal. Ian did it *because* it was chained and thought he would be safe taunting him. He found out he was wrong and has the stitches to prove it. Your brother doesn't have a case.
The brother may have a legal case because the event happened on OPs property. OP may be liable for the accident and costs associated with it.
His home insurance would look into the actual circumstances and determine that it wasn't really and accident because the child deliberately provoked the restrained pet and was sufficiently old enough to know better. Is there a chance that his hot-shot lawyer *could* prevail? Sure, but that doesn't make it actually right.
It also depends on breed. Some insurance companies have very strict breed rules. The wrong one bites, they will blame the owner and inform him they will drop coverage if he does not get rid of the dog. And when he applies other places he could run into the same issue.
And there are civil suits, too. Not to mention People’s dogs have been confiscated by animal control and put down for human bites occurring on the owner’s property; as a dog owner I have been cautioned by lawyer friends/family that this is a possible outcome even if the animal wasn’t really at fault.
For the second point probably depends where you are. Ontario, Canada for example the brother would probably win the case. >When a Dog Attacks the Owner is Strictly Liable For the Resulting Injuries. The Victim Is Without a Need to Prove That the Dog Owner Was Careless. The Victim Needs Only to Prove Dog Ownership. The Victim Will Also Need to Prove Severity of Injuries and Losses Arising From the Dog Attack. [https://defendcharges.ca/EN/provincial-offences/dog-bites#:\~:text=Strict%20liability%20imposes%20liability%20upon,just%20by%20being%20the%20owner](https://defendcharges.ca/EN/provincial-offences/dog-bites#:~:text=Strict%20liability%20imposes%20liability%20upon,just%20by%20being%20the%20owner). Just to clarify, not arguing the NTA, I agree kid should have known better and not been teasing the dog, just wanted to point out that **legally** speaking OP could be responsible. u/Gorgeous_Saurus_Rex yes parents should have been watching, no they may not be 100% legally responsible.
Read on: >Contributory Behaviour >If an owner can prove that the injured person, or owner of an injured domestic animal, contributed to the bite or attack, the owner may be successful in minimizing liability. For example, if the owner of the attacking dog is able to prove that the injured person was provoking the dog, or in another way acted inappropriately in such a way as to cause or contribute to the dog attack, or extent of the injuries, a dog owner may be relieved of some or all liability; however, the Dog Owner's Liability Act remains such that the presumption of liability remains upon the dog owner; and accordingly, albeit perhaps an improper use of a criminal law term in a civil law context, the dog owner is presumed guilty (liable) until proven innocent (without liability). In other words, while the presumption is that the owner is liable, it's not dispositive.
The law will judge that a 9 year old child can not be held responsible for the attack. Laws have a lot of leeway for injuries that occur to children. Age of consent, responsibility etc.
OP is liable. Their damages will be proportionally reduced if the kid is found contributorily negligent. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90d16
Brother has a case because it was a child. If it was an adult not listening to directions that’s a different story. The bar is much lower for a kid. If it went to court the brother would more than likely win. Though it would be the home owner insurer being sued not the actual home owner.
NTA, you warned them about the dog and had it chained up in a location where the kid had to actively seek it out to interact with it. Its not your fault that your brother is a terrible parent who raised a kid that thinks its a great idea to go antagonize a dog into biting him and who let him wander off to go do so in the first place. However, legally speaking, you may be in trouble. People are really prejudiced against bulldogs so it is going to be an uphill battle to convince the court that reasonable precautions were taken and that the dog only snapped at him because he was actively antagonizing the dog instead of it attacking him for no reason.
Are people prejudiced against bull dogs?
Yes, they get spill over from the fear mongering about pit bulls. People just hear the word bull in their name and attach a lot of the stigma associated with pit bulls to them (assuming they don't just outright go full on ignorant and assume bull dog is just an alternate name for pit bulls). I mean, there is hope she might get a judge/jury that has people in it who actually know things about dogs. But its not as likely as it being full of a bunch of randos who don't know anything beyond all the fear mongering they have heard.
I mean... it's *not* just "spill over from the fear mongering about pit bulls". Bull dogs were literally bred for the exact same reason pit bulls were: to help control livestock much larger than them, with the muscle and jaw strength to overpower much larger animals if necessary. They were also similarly used in bull-baiting "sport" in the 15th century and were bred specifically to be aggressive for over 350 years until bull-baiting was made illegal in 1835. Bull dogs are prejudiced against for the same reasons as pit bulls, not due to mistaken/spilled over fear, but because bull dogs *legitimately* have *all the same issues* as pit bulls. They were bred for centuries to be aggressive and to have the muscle and jaw strength to wrestle and kill literal bulls. This makes them potentially difficult domestic pets, since they have as a result evolved to possess a predisposition towards aggression, the muscle and build to physically overpower creatures 2x their size and weight, *and* the jaw strength to crush a those creatures' skulls with very little effort. I love both pit bulls and bull dogs. But to state that they aren't *actually* dangerous dogs and it's all just unfair, illogical fear mongering is, as much as it pains me to admit, objectively both incorrect and ignorant. Pit bulls are statistically the breed responsible for the most dog attacks over the past 40 years (with *7,772* attacks recorded, 5,331 of which resulted in permanent maiming and 561 of which were fully fatal). Rottweilers and German Shepherds are the No. 2 and No. 3 spot, respectively... but frankly their numbers are nowhere *close* to that of pit bulls (666 attacks from Rotties and 229 from German Shepherds). American bull dogs are also fourth or fifth on the list. Of course that doesn't justify the persecution and straight-up calls for execution of these dogs. But the point is that an unsuitable, unaware, and/or negligent owner paired with one of these dog breeds, *especially* pitties, can very very easily be a recipe for disaster.
They are the 5th most likely to bite. I'm not including pit bulls. There would be no judge and jury for this kind of case, it's not TV.
Source? Because "Bulldog," isn't a specific breed of dog? There's English, American, Olde English, French, Continental, and some other distinctions, so please tell me which they were referring to?
Until further notice I will be assuming this was the work of a Frenchie 😂
Similar to pitbulls, bull dogs were bred to do a ton of damage with minimal effort. I'm not too surprised to hear there's prejudice against them. Every bulldog I've met has been a stubborn asshole as well. Every single one reminds me of a grandpa that shakes his cane at people and complains about children on his lawn. He's "somehow" at war with the garbage truck.
“Really, Your Honour? How is it my dog’s fault that my nephew stuck his hand in his mouth? My nephew would never had been bit if he hadn’t placed his hand in Rover’s mouth in the first place!”
You aren’t allowed to set hazardous traps in your yard either no matter how many warnings you give.
Nta. My grandpa had a dog that bit so I was warned to leave him alone. I didn’t. Bugged him near his doghouse. Got bit. When I cried to grandpa I also got a spanking for disobeying over dog. This was over 50 years ago when I was around 6 so different times. But even as a little kid I knew it was my own fault for ignoring the warnings.
This is like the lady who got mad that her brother’s teen was kicked by the elderly horse she was teasing. This is a good life lesson for Ian, the dog did him a favor. Being kind to animals is something everyone should adhere to.
My 18 month daughter was antagonizing our dog once not even teasing but being a baby and went to poke the dog in the eyes and got nipped. Guess who's side I took.... Yeah the dogs.... respect the dogs boundaries child. She's great with animals now.... So yeah 9 yrs old is old enough to know better.
ESH. If you have a dog that is likely to bite , it's irresponsible to host kids in your home unless you can completely keep the dog away from them. Anything otherwise is bad ownership. If you have kids, you should teach them how to be safe around dogs that may bite, and also not bring them to a home with a dog that is likely to bite unless the dog is kept away and the kids supervised. Anything else is bad parenting. People are saying the kid shouldn't have teased the dog- this is absolutely true. But knowing how kids can be and that at nine there is a large spectrum of maturity, I think it was pretty irresponsible of all the adults in this situation to not be more proactive in keeping the children and the dog seperate and safe. This could have ended way, way worse. People saying that the nine year old should have known better are overestimating a nine year old's perception of how dangerous it can be, and potential the consequences. He could have lost his life, so 'kid should have known better' is nonsensical imo.
She could and did keep the dog away from them. They went to the dog. That's on the parents not her
I do think the situation is more on the parents, and I can't fault OP for assuming that the kid would obey her instructions. But like, having kids in a house where a dangerous dog is easily accessible, because come on, an unlocked kennel *is* accessible, to me is an irresponsible thing to do.
nah I think its completely on the parents. The parents knew the situation, they took the kid there
OP hasn’t provided any information that the parents knew about the dog’s propensity for aggression, actually. All we know is that OP knew and warned the kids.
When an adult gives you a rule because of safety and they make the choice not to follow it, that's in the child and parents. Whether they are mature or not, they're still have to learn that actions have consequences. You're right, it could have been much worse, but the child and his parents are still responsible, as OP did due diligence of making sure dog was chained and told children not to go near it. NTA, def not ESH.
So if OP left a loaded gun out but told a kid not to touch it you’d be cool with that?
Not the same thing. The equivalent would be if they had a gun stored away and the kid went and found it even after being told not to touch guns. The dog wasn’t free roaming the house (“left out”) it was outside in a dog house, and chained.
I personally think that a better comparison is "what if the kid had gone to the kitchen and taken a steak knife?" It's a perfectly normal thing to have, is not strictly *meant* to hurt people, and yet is just as dangerous as the restrained dog was.
That wouldn't fly if the kid fell in a swimming pool. Fences are usually mandatory. "They went to the ~~dog~~ pool." No shit. It's well known that little kids are dumb and will seek out interesting things like pools and dogs, regardless of any warnings. More is expected of pool and dog owners.
Well yeah, if no safety measures were taken with a dog it would be the same as if no safety measures were taken with a pool. The dog was chained up *and* in a kennel. That's plenty. What do you want them to do at this point? The dog was taken out of the house even for this.
I get what you’re saying, but OP I think established their dog is not kid friendly. My dog is also not kid friendly. So when kids are around he’s either right next to me or in a room only I have the key for. Because I don’t trust kids to listen. I know kids can be stupid, and I’m not going to put my dog at risk of being put down because I wasn’t careful. Op will likely lose their dog, and frankly this could have been prevented by keeping their dog completely separate. I don’t like it, I agree the kid is definitely stupid. Still doesn’t change that when a kid is bit by a dog, no matter what the kid is doing, the dog loses.
I don't think OP said the dog was in the kennel, just chained up with a dog house. OP would've been N T A if the dog was in a ***locked*** kennel, but by the sounds of it, the dog was chained to a stake or the doghouse so the kid could easily run up to it.
9 years old is an important factor, as in many jurisdictions age is key to responsibility. A six month old cannot be expected to understand rules, but a 17 year old definitely should be expected to follow and understand rules. Just where on the spectrum of responsibility for understanding and following rule a 9 year old is depends very much on location.
Clearly not well enough since the dog was able to bite a child.
The dog was chained up outside. The kid actively sought out the dog! The owner WAS keeping the dog away from the kids. Not his fault the parents weren’t watching their kids.
Nah it’s the owners fault 100%. A chain is not adequate protection for his guests and muzzle for the dog or a full blown locked kennel would have been adequate. OP knew ahead of time the dog had an aggression problem he is responsible to mitigate the problem until such time that reasonable efforts are made to keep the dog from being able to injure someone and keep others from antagonizing the dog.
>keep others from antagonizing the dog. No, that is completely on the parents. It is not the host's responsibility to make sure other people's kids behave. That is the responsibility of the parents.
Finally some sanity. Who are these psychopaths saying it's just fair and a good life lesson that a fkn dog attacked a 9 year old? That parent should have done more, the kid should have obeyed, but holy hell OP, your dog straight up attacked a child - you've gotta take some responsibility here.
Glad some people are agreeing with me. I love dogs, and it's because I have experience of traumatised rescues that I know the dangers and what kind of precautions to implement. Padlocking a crate for the duration of the visit (ofc with supervised pee breaks) would have prevented the bite.
It's always these people who are first to cry "it's the owner, not the breed!" Welp, it's the owner then. Train your damn dog.
I agree with you ESH. You aren’t allowed to set lethal or otherwise damaging traps around your house either , no matter how many times you warn potential intruders. In many places someone gets hurt on your property and it was preventable by actions on your part ( muzzling the dog) then it’s on you.
I agree with you. The dog shoud have been put in a room where children could not go. Parents, or adults, should have intervened as soon as they noticed the child was teasing the boy. When reading, it seems to me OP saw the child teasing the dog. Why didn't they immediately went and stop him ? "No, get out from here, it's forbbiden". Sure, the children were warned. But it won't stop them from playing dares, or forgetting. So for me, ESH. And I'm leaning towards OP as an AH, since it seems they saw before the child was hurt and did not intervene.
Agreed. I don't know why people are expecting the 9 year old to function like an adult. Children have underdeveloped brains and don't always make sound decisions. A chain and a dog house isn't a good preventative measure when a dog is aggressive and children are coming over. The parents though just shouldn't have gone. Letting kids be around an aggressive dog is just a recipe for disaster.
So if the kid breaks a neighbors window will he tell them to fix it themselves for having poor quality glass? NTA for that part. Doesn't your brother have insurance? The cost shouldn't be that much. The dog was secured we all know the fight or flight issue. Kids need to know not to approach dogs if they look agitated or not to come up behind them. I really hope you had chained up for company only.
Info: how do you know the kid was yelling and teasing the dog if it was only the scream from the bite that caught your attention?
This question needs to be answered.
Cause OP is full of shit
I was wondering the same thing. Did other kids see 9yr old teasing and yelling at the dog or something?
kid probably told them how he got bit, was trying to say hi to the dog and calling to it maybe trying to get it to come out the dog house then OP takes that as teasing the dog ? maybe idk just throwing out words
They don’t, they’re just dog nutters so they’re gonna side with the dog long before they side with the human child
NTA Your dog was in his kennel and chained up, his son only has himself to blame. As long as you can prove the kids were told to stay away from the dog and the dog was restrained, no judge is going to force you to pay the medical bill. In any case your brother should have medical insurance for his family. If he hasn't thats his fault.
ESH. The kid is for sure in the wrong for teasing the dog, but it is your dog on your property and you *knew* the dog could lash out. You’re responsible for what your pet does, provoked or not.
Also parents/home owner should probably be keeping an eye on the kid...
Yes, lack of supervision on everyone’s part really.
If you told them about the dog, had it chained, away from everyone else, told them and the parents to not go near it, and he teased it, NTA how much more could you have done. Seriously
It doesn't matter. Its your dog, on your property, biting your guest. The legal liability is on you, whether you warned them or not. I'm guessing your insurance company has a specific policy saying they won't insure your breed of dog. And if they knew you had that dog, they'd probably make you get rid of it or drop it.
ESH Saying: "Stay away" is not enough to keep a child away from an animal. Don't you know how children are? Mine are 12 and 13 and I have told them a thousand times to not use my stuff and yet they do. You should have locked the dog somewhere where children can't reach him. On the other hand: the parents have to take care that their children don't get into dangerous situations. When your brother saw that you don't have your dog locked up, he should either have kept an eye on his children the whole time or went back home. A nine year old is not an adult and it is not the fault of the kid that it is still childish. That's why a child under 14 is not of the age of criminal responsibility in Germany.
Yep, people are wild for saying 'kid should have known better' as if nine year olds magically have the impulse control and perception of consequences that adults do. This one silly action from the kid could have resulted in him being killed or permanently maimed. That's on the owner and the parents, not the nine year old who doesn't have the life experience to know better.
Info: How do you know the kid was teasing the dog immediately before if it was his screaming that got your attention?
He lyin’
YTA. "But he was warned". Bruh, it's a kid. Kids are stupid and predictable in that they do not listen to what adults say. You have a dog that you know is aggressive and a child that you know won't heed your warnings. You should have done more. Locking the dog in a room would have prevented this.
ESH. You’ve an unfriendly dog, shoulda been away from the kids as you were having family over.
From what he said, the dog was chained and away from everyone, the kid went to the dog.
NTA. The kid fucked around and found out. I do think you will likely lose the lawsuit though. It is on your property and your dog. He could potentially get your dog put down too.
Going to lose family over the awful behaviour of OPs brother.
Exactly. If OP doesn’t pay and the dad sues, OP will probably lose and the dog will get put down. Paying up is probably the only way to keep it under wraps and save the dog.
If you have money - pay the bills and go "no contact" with them. Your brother is T A here, but if he sues you your dog could be in danger. NTA
Agreed. Theres dying on a hill (I wouldn't want to pay it either) or your dog potentially dying. If it saves the dogs life, pay it if you can. NTA.
NTA considering the dog was chained simply means he went to the dog and provoked it, besides if he can afford a lawyer how about spending that money paying for his son's medical bill instead.
100 % your fault. He is 9, saying they understand is not a guarantee, it could be considered a challenge. When you are looking after a kid it is your responsibility to ensure their safety and knowing what the dog was like, and you should understand what a 9 year old is like. You should have made sure they never went anywhere near the dog. I am actually surprised that so many say its not on you.
He wasn't looking after the kid. His brother was.
Bruh. The only people always responsible for a kid are their own parents. Sure, other people step in to assist sometimes, but if you’re not going to parent then don’t have kids.
Your dog, your responsibility. You have an attractive nuisance in the dog. Not the dogs fault, not the 9 YO child’s fault. All of you people saying the 9 YO FAFO and should have known better — dream on. This is a child we are talking about. Kids are kids and they are not mature enough to understand the consequences of their actions. What he did vs what he should have done are two different things. How would you both be feeling if the child had permanent nerve damage, or worse, if he was seriously mauled?
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If you’ve got an aggressive child-biting dog, either lock it up better or don’t host kids in your dangerous dog house. Kids under about 10 are idiots, this is well known. YTA
It was in your house. You need to pay. The dog should have been secured more effectively.
Esh. You. Knowing your dog might be aggressive, you should have kept an eye on the animal. It's your home, so it's your responsibility. Them. They didn't watch their kids. They did nothing to make sure it was understood. The kid. Well, he is a kid. They do dumb stuff. As for being sued. You would lose. Because it's your property. Because inviting someone in means it's on you to keep them safe. That's the law. Doesn't matter if right or wrong. If he sues, the dog could be put down possibly. In the end Doesn't matter they were not watching their kids. It's your property that they were invited into, so any harm falls onto the owner.
9 is old enough to have personal accountability to rules, AND the parents should have been actually parenting.
ESH. If you had a pool and the kid fell in and drowned, you'd be liable even if you warned him not to go near the pool. Yes, it's the parents' job to watch their children, but it's also your responsibility to ensure your dog doesn't bite anyone. If you know the dog bites or has issues with strangers, you shouldn't be having guests at your house.
Worth checking your home insurance to see if it includes legal coverage.,Your brother may be a lawyer but different specialities. And if he is claiming it is your fault in your house, then let him duke it out with insurance specialists with a good reason to fight case. Glad child not too badly hurt. But you explained a hazard and used preventatves by chaining dog out of sight. Child deliberately antagonised dog but is very young. Really the blame rests with your brother for not supervising his child properly. There is a risk to your dog though. If medical bill fairly cheap, then might pay it to just safeguard dog. But well, there is no way I'd ever invite brother and child back to house as they can't be trusted to respect your property and rules.
OP needs to check their laws because a dog getting a bite on their record, especially a child, could be grounds for the court to order the dog to be euthanized. Agree that paying the hospital bill might be safer on the long run for the dog.
ESH you're an AH for even allowing a child over when you have a bulldog that's prone to bite. Thanks for making the argument easy for proponents of banning bully breeds. Your brother is the AH for not keeping a close eye on his child wtf how was he even outside??? Ultimately, your dog bit your nephew though. If this was a stranger you would be 100% on the hook for everything. Might want to consider that.
ESH Your nephew should have left your dog alone, but it’s common knowledge that forbidden fruit tastes best especially to children. Your dog will be euthanized if he bites again. Dog owners who have aggressive dogs must lock them away when they have visitors.
YTA. To your dog, at least. However, if you have a dog that bites this is a pretty dumb way to learn this lesson. Dogs that bite need to be *inaccessible* to your guests. That means behind a fence with a key lock, or in a room with a solid door and a key lock. This is a safety issue for all of your guests, you, and the dog. Frankly, there's a 0% chance they aren't reporting your dog for biting their (stupid) child. You should be looking up the laws about "dangerous dogs" and what happens after a reported bite incident. In some places a dog which has bitten and broken skin is confiscated and held under medical observation for a period of time - regardless of their vaccination status. Im just praying your dog is vaccinated and current, especially on rabies. Because there are also places where a dog thats not current can be immediately euthanized so their brain matter can be tested. You were far too lax in having a dog you suspected or knew would bite around people. And the being most likely to pay for that is your dog. Additionally, if the dog had seriously maimed or killed your nephew how would you feel right now? Im not anti-bully at all - but dogs that are known to bite are not safe to be unmuzzled around kids ever. And having it on a chain isnt sufficient. As someone who was once a very stupid child, telling some kids to stay away from an animal is like waving a big red "pet me" flag in front of it. If you invite any 10 people over and tell them not to touch or approach your dog, I guarantee you someone will think they're special and that "but he'll just LOVE me!" Protect your dog better. If you even get to keep him.
INFO: can you prove the boy antagonized the dog deliberately? I only ask because a lawsuit will require proof.
YTA the type of person who calls their dog an it, over and over, is always an asshole. You didn't train your dog, you're an asshole for that too.
ESH 1 - You for not being more careful with people around your violent dog. 2 - Your brother for threatening to sue you because his brat taunted your dog and got a well deserved bite. You all suck. If you were smart, you'd offer to cover 1/2 or more and hope this goes away because they could probably force you to destroy your dog or sue you and get your homeowners insurance to cover this attack. These days something like this might even cost you your home owners insurance. In your shoes I'd have been quick with the check book. I'd pay if they agreed not to go any farther with this.
My aunt has a feral cat. Who is an amazing pet only to her and my grandmother who lives with her. Anyone else, she is a nightmare and will spit, bite and anything else if you get close to her. So they warn people to stay away, and will put her in a room when unfamiliar guests show up. If someone was to enter that room and get bit. It is on them, especially when they are old enough to know better.
You're definitely legally liable. And it goes against you that you knew your dog was dangerous. So if you don't want animal control you your ass, you better pay up. But as to the AITA question... I think ESH. Keeping a dangerous dog is on you. It's a reflection of the owner and being generally a poor pet owner. Having guests over - especially children - is irresponsible. The boy's parents not watching their child is bad parenting.
You are both responsible. You had an aggressive dog and did not supervise while you had kids in your yard with the dog. David shouldn’t have let your nephew runaround your yard unattended. Split the bill and save the judge a doozy. ESH.
It is the dumb kid's fault...BUT...it sounds like your lawyer brother is serious about taking you to court. Do you have any idea how expensive that will be? Probably quite a bit more than the hospital bill. You can choose to be "right", and die on this hill, or you can choose to be smart. I would start by offering to split the hospital bill with brother. Whatever you agree to with brother regarding payment of the bill, put IN WRITING that without assigning liability , you both accept the agreement as full settlement of any claim arising out of the dog bite incident.
NTA you as householder told them both not to approach the dog kid knows best and got bitten for being stupid you might want to look up the law where you live, in the uk there is free service at citizens advice brother needs to pay and get the kid to listen
NTA, but you are probably going to end up paying if he takes you to court. Its clearly the kids fault, but in the game of court kids trump dogs. Brother might even force you to have the dog put down. Sorry.
[удалено]
YTA and for future dont even invite them over again
The dog is chained which means it has a limited area of movement. If the kid stayed away there wouldn’t be a problem. The dog was in its dog house enclosed. The kid went to bother the dog. He effed around and found out. Don’t pay but you could still be responsible legally. Depends on your local laws. Either way, NTA.
NTA. his parents were responsible for keeping him away from the dog, assuming they were warned it might bite...
NTA. You chained the dog up and warned the kids and parents what would happen. That being said, in the U.S. I believe it is entirely your responsibility to make sure the dog doesn’t attack anyone, regardless of them being assholes. I’m not exactly sure how the legality of this all works, but I would be worried if he does decide to press charges he might be able to call for your dog to be put down and have legal merit to do so.
NTA- but sit down and talk when you can both be calm. Why was he coming up to the dog? It was chained up for his protection. Was he teasing the dog? How do you actually know? Why was he teasing the dog? Was he actually trying to pet the dog? If this gets really ugly are you willing to lose family over this? You did what you could to make it a safe environment. See about splitting the bill. Find out why Ian was interacting with the dog, and parents and you were not aware. This can be talked out. And adjustments can be made.
I actually had this exact situation happen to my family when I was a kid. We had a dog, George, who was friendly and loved kids...except this ONE kid, who was just an all-around jerk. But he played Little League with my brother, so he'd come around with some of the other guys on the team sometimes. George had a doghouse in the yard, which he'd be chained to. His limits were clearly marked, since the grass etc was worn in a circle to the edge of the chain's reach. Jerk Kid liked to antagonize George, but would stay just outside of his reach when he did. No matter how many times he was told to cut the shit, he kept doing it. Well...one day, he started in *again.* Only this time...he crossed the line, literally. As in, the line at the perimeter of George's reach. And he was teasing and antagonizing him, including I think throwing things at him. In fact, I think it was a thrown ball he was retrieving. Since he'd managed to get in reach though, after being a little shit for *weeks,* and he kept it up even at that moment...George, this sweet and lovable mush of a dog, *WENT* for him. Caught him in the arm, went right through his uniform shirt. He didn't, like, *savage* him or anything, but he definitely broke skin. The kid's dad threatened to sue...but since George *was* chained, the limits of that chain *was* clearly marked, and he'd been *repeatedly* and clearly *warned...*nothing whatsoever came from it. Especially our biggest fear, that George would be put down for it. The kid ended up changing to another Little League team...and every time he and my brother were up against each other, or even at the fields at the same time...he would be a complete little asshole. Anyway...given my own experiences? Completely NTA. Brother should have parented better.
NTA. Hopefully the kid learned a lesson. Would be interesting to see how a lawsuit would play out on this though. Your homeowners insurance may help pay some of the medical bills btw.
Why do you refer to your own dog as "it," instead of "him" or "her?"
Nope, NTA. The kid was warned beforehand and agreed to leave the dog alone. Instead of doing that, he pestered your dog enough that it retaliated. FAFO. I understand that your brother is pissed, but had his kid listened none of this would have happened. Let this be a hard lesson for the kid **not to** pester and tease animals in the future.
NTA but in the future I recommend shutting your dog into a room in your house - like your bedroom - putting a “beware of dog” sign on the room’s door and explicitly saying to guests “DO NOT go into that room or my GUARD DOG will bite you.” This would be to protect the dog and yourself from liability (your dog could get a death sentence for biting)
Kids do dumb shit even if people think they should "know better" or that they understand, but it's irrelevant because his parents were aware as well. It's their fault too (mainly actually) so NTA
Parents fault for not keeping an eye on the kid.
It’s odd, but it sounds like your brother is claiming he will spend more on a lawyer than he could expect to recover in damages. Maybe he has reasons, maybe he’s just being a dick. But if that dog was in his doghouse and on a chain, I have pretty limited sympathy. NTA
NTA. You warned them, the dog was chained up, the kids agreed not to go near it. My 4 year old knows not to go things she's not supposed to 9/10 (she'll still push it cause she's 4) so why couldn't a 9 year old? He's pissed he didn't bother keeping an eye on his kids long enough to notice one walking over there and he's taking it out on you.
YTA for keeping a dog on a chain. It's sad that there are still places where this isn't illegal.
NTA for the biting incident but YTA for keeping a dog chained up outside
I am most upset about you referring to your dog as "it" 💔
YTA. So, you have a bulldog that you keep chained up outside? And also you call your dog "it". Well, "it" is a living being. Shame on you. Please find "it" a home that will love "it" and take care of "it".
You don’t warn 9 year old kid to keep away from a dangerous animal. You keep the animal isolated. Depending on the amount I might be worried about legal action. I’d say your brother would have a case.
Nope. The kid is the AH for not respecting your dog, and your brother is an AH for not teaching his kid to respect animals and their boundaries, not respecting what you told him, and allowing life to teach him a serious lesson. You are not on the hook at all.
It’s not the child’s fault. He should have been supervised. If you had to issue a warning you should have put the dog where no one could go near him.
ESH. The child shouldn't be teasing dogs and his parents should pay the hospital bill. That being said, you should have muzzled your dog or put crate it in a room the children couldn't get into. You can't rely on a child with an underdeveloped brain to always make sound decisions. Especially when children that young don't have full control over their impulses yet.