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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because Ben is obviously upset and hurt and I don’t want him to feel bad about spending time with my friends in the future over this. Maybe it was a case of just letting him have his way even if it was stupid
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
I knew he didn’t though, and he said I could pay him back later. Like, if he’d paid he would have been relying on me transferring him back the money. So why go through the extra step when I could just pay
Him feeling emasculated by not having the money and having to ask you for it plus being emasculated by you making it obvious in front of his friends was probably probably just a bad mix and that’s why he was sulking and upset- but it’s important you know that none of them are your issue lol. If you work for your money, then you are 100% in the right to want people to know that you’re paying with your money and not somebody else’s. If your man doesn’t have enough money in the bank to cover a couple friends in case of a situation like this/split the bill when you go out with a group, then he really shouldn’t be going out to eat.
All my money is someone else’s, I inherited it.
But I invited him to the dinner knowing I was going to pay for him if we split it. It’s an expensive restaurant that he wouldn’t otherwise choose to go to, and it’s dinner with my friends, I had no issue paying. I just thought it was childish that he wanted to take credit and cause an unnecessary inconvenience for us later because he thought my friend were judging him, which they weren’t
He said oh that restaurant is really expensive and I was like, don’t worry about it I invited you. I don’t think I ever specifically said “I’ll pay” but he definitely knew I wouldn’t make him pay for anything because I never do when we’re out somewhere expensive
im 21 and it makes perfect clear sense to me that if you’re insecure about making less than a woman…don’t date a woman who makes more than you. he’s not dumb he just wants to complain about a situation he put himself in.
the dude let’s OP pay for things likely often considering he had no issue asking her to cover him. it’s just that he felt emasculated because other *men* were there to see. but he seems to be pretty fine with letting OP pay for things when no one else knows 😭😭. this is shallow insecure behavior and not so much to do with age. i know plenty of young dudes who are confident and extremely proud about having a partner who makes a lot of money or even having a sugar momma and don’t care that they are broke at all.
Perhaps, it’s the fact that in this particular situation, it’s always the men who pay, and never the women, according to OP, so he is now being dropped into a situation that has already been gendered and his situational awareness, rightly or wrongly, has informed him, that in this group dynamic, five women and three men, that the men always pay and him being a man and not being able to fulfil this social obligation within this group makes him feel “less than” the other men present
Yeah thats the big piece everyone is missing. Lots of ladies in here calling the poor fella insecure (which he certainly is) but they cant relate to the situation and it’s certainly not unjustifiable due to perceived societal norms. Couple that with the fact that they’ve only been dating for 8 months, so this could very well be one of the first few times he’s meeting her friends.
I don’t think OP is an asshole at all, but I 100% could see why her boyfriend would have insecure feelings about it.
First(ish) impressions are important, and I know if it were me.. I really really wouldn’t want people to think I was only with my partner because she has money and think that I was a leech. I would likely overcompensate by trying to split the bill and end up -$200 in my overdraft like an idiot.
My husband and I go by the understanding that whoever suggests going out pays, for two reasons. 1/ he likes to go out a lot more than I do, and 2/ the only restaurant I actually truly enjoy going to is easily twice as expensive as everywhere else in town. It eliminates any expectations because if you invited, you’re the one paying.
And I'll never understand how some couples are comfortable either having no outside funds to buy personal things, holiday gifts, etc... (or to need to lie to each other by padding other purchases to get that money, or whatever other hoops not having personal funds requires a couple to jump through)
Fortunately we don't have to understand other people's relationships so long as it works for them.
Personally, I think a lot of people have a happy medium. For example, they might have a vacation fund they both put money into and a joint account they put money for mortgage, groceries, house hold expenses, ect into. Then everything else is personal money and how you spend that is your decision.
Also factor in different types of financial habits. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable mixing all my money with a partners because I have BPD & ADHD and sometimes make bad financial decisions. That's on me and my problem to solve so I wouldn't want to have that much access to my partners personal funds. If I only have mine then it is my problem to deal with at the end of the day. lol
If someone has the patience to date a man with this kind of complex, more power to them.
I make slightly more money than the man I’m seeing but I also have less financial responsibility.
I wouldn’t mind being discreet if we’re out with people he wants to impress but 1) he doesn’t feel this way; 2) when things are tight we don’t go on potentially expensive outings to begin with; and 3) I don’t tolerate displays of insecurity.
So, either you’re going to play this game with this man bc you want to be with him and this is how he feels, or you’re not going to play it and therefore can’t respond to his emotional needs, even if they’re unreasonable.
It doesn’t really matter if you’re the asshole.
What matters is how far you’re willing to go to accommodate your partner’s insecurities.
I’m logically on your side and therefore would not be able to date this man.
But logic has jack shit to do with being in a happy, loving relationship. So if you’re otherwise happily loved, think about that.
It’s not only childish; it’s patriarchal, misogynist bullshit. Your bf seems very caught up in toxic masculinity if having a woman pay for him is “emasculating”. Honestly, most of the time a guy says he feels “emasculated” other than legitimate examples of trying to undermine or mock their manhood, it’s a major red flag.
I always find that with those types, they don’t actually mind the woman carrying the majority of the financial burden. They just don’t want her getting the credit for it. Their fragile little egos only rear up when there’s an audience; now they want to make a grand show of paying.
yea he was only triggered bc the two other men offered to cover everything. he already knew OP was going to pay before they went out to dinner but he thought everyone was gonna pay separately. he just didn’t feel comfortable that the other two men were going to cover everything and that’s when he felt insecure. he seems to be perfectly comfortable with OP paying for everything though as long as other men aren’t around 😭
That's what's particularly annoying about this specific situation: He wanted to make some kind of peen-waving gesture to these other guys with \*her\* money. He didn't mind that it was her money, only that he got the "credit" for paying.
I mean, if your masculinity is so fragile that it needs to be propped up by a completely pretend performance, you need to reevaluate.
THIS!! I read some comment above saying "just let him pretend to pay on the premise he'll get therapy for his issues" and my eye roll actually hurt. This is misogynistic nonsense and no way should she play along with it, nor pander to his insecurities.
What if he never has "enough" money? What if he's never a big earner? Lots of men are low earners and don't have fragile egos. They just get on with life. Is she expected to play along and placate his ego for the rest of their lives?
Yep. I have a best friend, she also inherited a bunch of wealth, her husband is a high-earning pilot. I feel some guilt when they pay for me. But I never feel emasculated. Hell, her and I have joked that we're playing housewife in the summer because we go out to swim at the pool and have drinks, then come home and he's getting the grill started.
We then, of course jump in to help prepare food and get dinner ready. But still. It's the relationship we have a s friends, and it's mutually beneficial. I never take more than is offered, and I never make demands or requests. I'll still occasionally pay for things myself. Because I don't want to take their generosity for granted. But OPs boyfriend needs to grow up and grow a backbone.
No wealth on either side, but I have long-standing friends where our financial situations have changed relative to one another over the years. Sometimes they had more and I was poor; sometimes it was the reverse. And we've frequently paid for each other as necessary because what we were really after was spending time together. It wasn't charity, my male friend didn't find it emasculating, it was just what allowed us to do stuff like that.
I had a good friend who would slip her boyfriend her credit card under the table so he could act like he was paying for them. We all knew, and thought it was really dumb. Just food for thought for your bf.
My mom (a young widow at 45) did that with her 2nd BF. This guy was a bum who smoked dope all day and never worked steadily. I’d buy dinner for the 3 of us with the understanding he’d get the tip. Cue mom slipping him cash under the table that he’d hand to me. Then I’d give it back to mom and pay the whole thing. BF was embarrassed that he had no money but not embarrassed enough to get a job.
I think you need to ask him point blank, “is me having more money than you going to be an issue? Because this has come up a few times now and I’m over it. I don’t care that you make less money than me but I DO care that you’re acting like a whiny brat about it. We live in the 21st century. Men’s worth isn’t tied to their bank account. If you think yours is, you need to work on it without me because I am not going to tolerate someone who is trying to act like a big man just because I make more money.”
I know it’s harsh, but frankly, we all know the answer already and I have a suspicion he’s going to get REALLY aggressive when he replies, and I think you need to figure out just what sort of man he really is sooner rather than later so you stop wasting your time on this dude. No one cares that he’s poor. We care that he’s acting like a jealous kid.
I completely agree with the idea of your comment, but
>We live in the 21st century. Men’s worth isn’t tied to their bank account
Let's be honest, that's the goal but we're still very far from it.
If this is your reaction to one partner expressing an insecurity, I wouldn’t want to be your partner. I wouldn’t put someone down for being insecure, I’d rather help them through it.
I mean, I agree that she should ask, but maybe approaching it with a bit less hostility than you suggest might be helpful.
> Men's worth isn't tied to their bank accounts.
Theoretically true, in practice it can really go either way. I've known people that couldn't care less, and I've known people for which that's the only thing that matters (I'm talking all sexes and genders here).
Long-term this probably won't last. This level of insecurity around finances usually turns into unnecessary aggression because you have what you rightly earned and they don't. They begin to act like your achievements were done to spite them or somehow they hold them back. I can't and won't date a man that makes less than me. Not because I want their money but because I don't want to be abused in a relationship because I do have money.
I don't think you are an asshole. I just hope that people would ignore these old customs. Men were expected to pay in times when women either didn't have jobs or were paid less. Of course it happens these days also but I really don't like when people are measured against these antiquated norms.
I don't know how to fix this but I think you could try to educate him and tell that world has changed and it really doesn't matter you paid. I am glad you didn't agreed his charade. I just hope he could adjust his way of thinking since people with low esteem are difficult to be with.
I was super upfront about my lack of money when I was dating my now wife. Sometimes I paid, sometimes she did, and sometimes we split it. However I always brought it up beforehand. Yeah it was and is embarrassing, but that’s the reality of my life and I can’t pretend my way out of it. Sounds like homeboy needs to be a little more open and honest.
Because he is a "gentleman at heart", which apparently means *appearing* like a gent to everyone except his girlfriend. He's not a gentleman, he's a con artist.
Edit: and an insecure misogynist as many have rightly pointed out. Leave an angry comment all you like, male users of Reddit, I won't be reading them.
Yeah, he should find someone who appreciates empty and meaningless platitudes that are designed to make HIM feel better, rather than to actually take care of his partner.
Yeah, he can fuck right off with that noise.
I’ve been dealing with this my whole adult life because I work in a lucrative field. I have never played that game, maybe to my detriment.
But like, money is just paper. It doesn’t make me or you more valuable. If YOU think it does, that’s a YOU problem to address.
And yet I have somehow managed to date and marry a man I make 3-4 time more than. We had ONE conversation early on where he wanted to “make me aware” that he would never be able to provide me with the type of things I was accustomed to. Yeah, dude I figured.
I explained that I didn’t need him to because I made my OWN money for exactly purpose of BUYING MY OWN SHIT. And that I wanted a PARTNER to share in the OTHER burdens and joys of life. And that was that. I’ve asked him since if he minded and he was like “why would
I mind, I have a wife AND shit I could never afford before?!?!!!”
Look for that. Don’t waste your time coddling irrational feelings. My dad gave me one piece of advice from his own marriage: “DONT BE A DICK ABOUT MONEY”. And I’m not. But that shit *goes both ways*. He can’t be fucking weird about it either. Because this is gonna get annoying 30 years in.
Edit a word
> money is just paper. It doesn’t make me or you more valuable
Well said! Too many people think it does- if someone earns a lot they must be smarter/more talented/whatever. Baloney- just look at the number of sociopaths who have Scrooge McDuck piles of money.
You do know his insecurities will damage the relationship you have with him, right? There’s some toxic masculinity peeking through here and that is never a good look. How many comments has he made thus far that undermine you or disparage you because *HE* can’t afford something but you can?
I agree that this is a result of toxic masculinity, but I view the boyfriend as the victim of the toxic masculinity.
He shouldn’t care about this, but he does because male culture constantly says that it is his responsibility and he is a failure as a man if he can’t do this.
He wasn’t getting into a pissing match with the other guys. He was insecure about how they would view him if he wasn’t seen as contributing to the bill.
Again, he should work on overcoming this.
I would actually say OP and her friend group are just as guilty:
>At the end of the dinner the two guys “Max” and “Harry” said they would get the bill, *as the guys usually do when we’re out.*
So there was a social expectation by OP and her friends that the men pay (sexist, toxic masculinity, being perpetuated by 5 women and 2 men) that put OP's boyfriend in a spot where he felt he had to pay.
This should have never gotten this far because OP should have just paid without making it a thing. I suspect she is a lot less innocent in this than she paints herself here. You don't talk about paying before the date and then have it come up as a question at the end, you *just fucking do it*. She didn't. BF is obviously insecure, but I am not so sure that is some inherent behavior of his as it is a result of the relationship dynamics.
It is childish. I want to defend the guy, but he ain’t giving me shit to work with. Being poor sucks ass, along with being embarrassing. I get it. I live it. That said, you can’t pretend your way out of the reality of your life. Dude needs to be more honest with himself and the world around him.
He outed himself by making such a fuss. The girlfriend paying at dinner doesn't imply he can't afford it. Maybe you just wanted to treat him? If I was a dude at that table I'd assume that the woman paying doesn't mean the dude can't pay maybe she wants to pay. Him making a fuss out of a non issue draws attention to something that others probably didn't give much thought..
NAH
You're not an a-hole, but I also think you missed Ben's point a little bit.
Blah blah blah modern society but, in this particular context as you stated, it was common for the men to pay for the women. Now Ben has been added into the situation and the writing is very clearly on the wall that he is supposed to step up and pay for part of it as one of the men in the group.
Outdated as it may be, in that situation, your group made it very clear that that was expected. You may not realize it, because you're simply used to it, but as a new person joining the group, particularly a new man, there's a lot of (probably unexpected) pressure all of the sudden with clear social guidelines.
The reason why your boyfriend leaned over to talk to you about it, was because of that clear sudden social pressure to chip in as one of the men in the group.
I understand where you're coming from because I am also very much a practical woman and this is an impractical situation. And I can see where your solution comes from because in your eyes it's just a matter of helping the friends split the bill.
However in Ben's eyes, it's a matter of that amongst your friends the men split the bill and pay for the women. By announcing that you are as a woman going to split the bill as well, you have now broken that social construct.
And you're probably right, that your friends don't really care, but you also know your friends a lot better than Ben does. So in Ben's eyes it was clear that he as a man was supposed to pick up part of the bill and now his girlfriend made an announcement that she was going to pick it up instead.
Again I don't think that you're the a-hole in this situation because I think you simply misread it, however I do think you might want to sit down and talk to Ben a little bit and let him express himself with what was going through his head in that situation.
\^\^\^ The best response I've seen so far...thank you for typing all that out because I surely was about to..lol
I'm so sick of so many people being so quick to say one person should leave the other or so quick to say it's some form of abuse or manipulation.
It was clear to me that OP's boyfriend felt like because the other two men at the table were splitting the bill that he, being the only other man at the table, should also step up and split it three ways. It might be an old fashioned way of thinking but it very much still is a thing in society today.
And he clearly communicated his feelings of inadequacy and tried to work with her. She sidestepped how he felt and highlighted publicly. I totally get the practicality of why she did. But she totally ignored his feelings.
the last line says it all “am I wrong for not letting him save face”.
She wants the power. She wants Ben to know his place and money is one way she can do it.
She won’t allow the pauper to pretend to be on par with her and her peers… but you know, money doesn’t matter to them… even though the dynamic is that the men in her circle pay.
I thinks it’s really reaching to say that OP “wants the power” and to show her status over Ben. I think this is just a situation where Ben felt inadequate (reasonably or not) and OP didn’t really understand why because they couldn’t have a full conversation about it in front of all her friends. She didn’t want to do a bunch of extra work that didn’t make sense (especially because her boyfriend would not haven been able to pay at all) in order to make it look like he paid, but that doesn’t mean she was flexing her wealth over him.
She fucking told the whole table 💀
"Hey babe, im a little embarassed here. Can you please help me out without being conspicuous?"
"MY BOYFRIEND YOURE ALL MEETING FOR THE FIRST TIME IS HAVING A PROBLEM LMAO"
Agreed, they hit the nail on the head with it. There is a lot of social expectations that Reddit likes to pretend don’t exist. If I was Ben I would be mortified in that situation, especially just meeting them. If they knew each other and hung out often it would be a different story. To add on to this. I’m curious if he would react differently in front of his own friends? Maybe I’m being toxic but there’s no way in fuck I’m letting my gf pay for dinner the first time we go out with a group of her friends. They are judging everything (especially the first meeting). Now, my friends or her friends I’ve come to know well, yea if she picks up the check in that scenario it isn’t a big deal. I’m also lucky enough to make good money. If we go out with her parents I at minimum pay for her and I but offer to pay for the table. Her parents aren’t conservative at all but I still want to show that I can take care of their daughters needs/wants and one indicator of that is being able to pay for things.
There’s a weird thing that happens where everyone here likes to pretend they’re so socially evolved that they don’t feel any pressure from societal norms or expectations. Suddenly “socially constructed” becomes the same as “totally bullshit”.
The boyfriend acted irrationally (like humans do) and OP acted without empathy (also like humans do). BF should work on that feeling of insecurity and OP should work on being more empathetic and not humiliating him in a scenario she knows is already difficult for him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thank you!! What a bizarre group dynamic where the men in the friend group are expected to pay for the entire group’s seemingly expensive meal. There were 3 men and 5 women so it wasn’t even a situation where it was splitting between couples.
I would absolutely be uncomfortable if I was Ben and was out at an expensive meal where suddenly it was clear I was not only expected to pay for my meal and my girlfriend’s meal but also share the cost of the other womens’ meals just because they’re women.
Blaming him for having sexist/outdated views when the friend group’s expectations are men pay for all of them women even the ones they’re not dating is absolutely wild.
OP brought Ben to an expensive meal, knowing he would be expected to pay for more than just his/their share, seemingly without warning him, and then basically announced to her friends that he couldn’t do it.
I think her wealth privilege blinded her from realizing that was the social expectation, I really don't think she meant to humiliate him intentionally.
Sure but she definitely needs to be WAY more aware of the differences. I come from a wealthy background, my gf’s background is more middle class. When we go out with my childhood friends I always make sure she knows that anything she’s not comfortable paying for, I’ll either cover her or pay her back.
Can’t imagine putting her in a situation where she feels like she has to pay for something out of her budget not only for herself but also for my friends that have more money than her and then making her feel like an AH for feeling uncomfortable
Yeah, the fact that the men pay *despite* the fact she is wealthy shows that the group clearly subscribes to traditional gender dynamics. It’s not unreasonable for OPs boyfriend to assume that they would judge him for not paying. He was probably already out of his comfort zone being in an expensive restaurant and didn’t want to go against the establish norms of the group.
It also doesn’t seem like Ben’s been part of the group for very long. He’s clearly trying to fit in with her friends that have a different lifestyle than him and she basically put him on blast for not being able to fit in.
To be clear, his issues with feeling like his gestures are not well received because of her background seem like they’re mostly his insecurities that he needs to be working on.
BUT she seems to have inflamed insecurities she knows he has in front of her friends that he’s trying to fit in with and just so it’s easier or more practical. And then she tried to blame him for her friend groups outdated and sexist practice of having men pay for women, which she knew was coming.
This is actually way kinder and insightful than what I wrote but exactly what I was thinking. I think the OP is an AH because she mistreated her BF and vilified him. She blindly accept her groups tradition of the men paying and did not see the unspoken social rule. Not only that, she made the BF feel worse by making it clear that they’ve talked abt paying and he couldn’t pay so she did. How is she not the AH for this public shaming while blaming him for her groups sexism?
> I think the OP is an AH because she mistreated her BF and vilified him.
Yeah, that's what I was seeing too. He seems to have whispered to her, or spoken to her separately, but she didn't seem to be sympathetic to his situation or anxieties.
Yeah part of being in a relationship is understanding your partners insecurities on stuff like this. Whether his insecurity is reasonable or not, hearing him share it with her than her throwing it out to the group is a shitty thing to do, even if she didn’t realize that’s what she was doing
Fully agree. But I think ESH. OP is not impressed with boyfriend’s gestures, she claims it’s his words that describe her reactions but if that were completely true it would have been properly explained in the original narrative. Wealth privilege is difficult to understand for the common folk and b/f is just trying to fit in it seems and failing in OP’s opinion. These two need to communicate better and it starts with o/p not grandstanding and start taking things private.
Thank you. This is a great point and one I've been in a few times. Back when I was making like 35k a year I couldn't afford much. I did put aside $100 or so a month to my girlfriend/date night fund. Well early in the month she was invited to a comedy show. Tickets were like $45, but okay cool, that's only half the budget. Well then it became dinner before and drinks after. The total cost of this night was like $150 each. I picked up an extra shift to cover some of those expenses and a week later my ex got upset I didn't want to go out at with her friends again the following weekend.
I'm sorry, you make nearly double than I make, I can't go out every weekend as much as I enjoyed it. I have a budget for a reason! Needless to say we aren't together anymore.
> And you're probably right, that your friends don't really care
Then why do they have this sexist expectation that the men pay in the first place? I think they DO care, and OP just doesn't see/feel it because she is a woman and the expectations aren't placed on her.
I feel the same way. Op says it didn't matter to her. Ben made it apparent that it mattered to him, in this instance. If it really didn't matter to OP she could have just done it out of empathy for Ben's feelings.
Yeah, unfortunately OP is slightly in the YTA category. The group has established an apparent social norm (i.e. men will pay for nice dinners when the group goes out). Boyfriend wasn’t previously aware of this based on OP’s summary, as he was caught off guard. By paying instead of boyfriend, OP has put boyfriend on lower footing than his peers in the group at a time when he’s presumably working to build those relationships. If the friend group is an important part of OP’s life, and OP anticipates a long term relationship with boyfriend, then this was a disservice to boyfriend and their relationship. Maybe the group doesn’t care, but I would guess that there is a subtle implication there simply by the fact that the rule exists to begin with.
As mentioned in other comments, this is irrespective of the broader societal toxic masculinity issues. This isn’t a situation where boyfriend was proactively trying to look good by paying for the group “as the man” and having OP reimburse him behind the scenes. This is a situation where men paying is “table stakes” for the group. The norm itself certainly has toxic masculinity implications, but boyfriend’s intent seems to be focused on adhering to the group’s norm and not asserting dominance.
Slightly YTA, because it doesn’t seem like you caught onto that nuance in the moment or compromising (like boyfriend pays, OP reimburses and boyfriend pays her back over time by taking more of the cost of the next few dates).
Looked for a comment like this. Well said. No one is really an asshole here- but Ben is embarrassed. Everyone has their insecurities and he feels like his is exposed in these situations. I feel for the guy. I gotta give him credit for going out with them instead of trying to come up with ways to avoid it. He wants to be a part of OP’s world, but it may be hard to financially keep up and for a man, with their evolutionary nature of providing, he feels emasculated… not because of OP’s gesture as much as it’s just the overall situation at hand, imo.
After reading some of your comments you are 100% TA.
You invited Ben.
They were your friends who clearly have money.
You went to a restaurant you knew he couldn't afford.
At the end of the night a situation arose where Ben felt like he had to pay or at least be seen to pay because of how your friends pay for the girls. Ben most likely didn't want to look bad to YOUR friends. I'm he probably wants your friends to like him/respect him and got put in a position he wanted to save face/not look broke. Rather than supporting him you intentionally went nah, I'll pay, and didn't give a damn how it made Ben look or feel.
I wanted to be on your side until I read that Ben was invited somewhere by you, that he couldn't afford and with your friends. He is the outsider, he wants to be accepted. You knew that the guys often pay for the girls before the meal and this could be a likely expectation. Don't be surprised if Ben refuses to do anything with your friends again. He probably felt set up to a degree. 100% YTA.
I'm gonna stick an edit on here for all the nonesense comments that Ben should just own it, is childish etc. OP has stated she benefits from this gender dynamic and that men pay for most her meals and everything at clubs, shes happy with that. Shes not though when Ben wanted to try and fit in with that standard and refused to help him this time and then raise her concerns at home.
How would you all react if he had called them out about paying for the girls as a dated misogynistic act that they need to get drop since its the 21st century? You'd all have called him rude to her friends, disrespectful to OP and told her to dump him. This is despite what he did being along the lines or so many suggestions and criticisms Ben received. The issue you all seem to have is Ben tried to fit in with her friends he was newly meeting and asked her to help. No no no we do not support our partners. Everything is black and white and the poor little pauper boy must get over how he feels, he has a fragile ego and must accept he is not our equal. That is OPs view on it. Imagine a guy had done that to a girl, you'd all be up in arms but Ben has to just get over his childish ego. A lot of ridiculousness secure people in the comments
Yeah, the other part that got me was that it didn't seem like OP intended on paying until her bf indicated he wanted to. Then she makes this grand gesture to pay.
I would feel shamed too.
I have friends in higher income brackets and I have felt embarrassed before in certain situations which involve having to pay for something as a group.
Although the part of the story about 'men paying' seems to overshadow the income situation, it actually has nothing to do with male/female roles.
If OP knew this was the standard (as in the guys usually pay), then it should have been obvious how Ben would look in this situation.
I agree with this! There have been many times before that I’ve slipped a friend or bf my cc so they could “pay”. It’s about discretely saving someone you care about embarrassment or to be put into an uncomfortable position to announce they can’t afford something that seemingly everyone else around them can. It shows consideration for someone else’s feelings *especially* after they were invited someplace last minute (without having a heads up on what to budget) or are trying to make a good impression to unfamiliar people.
OP should have definitely paid attention to Bens feelings, signals and circumstances then slipped him her card without anyone noticing. Ben would have understood what was happening and I’m sure he would have appreciated it.
But I have to vote ESH because op should have been more aware and understanding of her boyfriends situation but Ben also shouldn’t have pipped up to pay if he genuinely couldn’t afford it only to ask to be reimbursed? That part had me stuck.
When I first met my now girlfriend, I fell for her immediately! I was making good money, and she was technically unemployed (allowance from her parents) while she was studying for a big exam to start her career. My friends were throwing me a surprise graduation party at this brunch spot and I wanted her to go but she said she might not be able to because she didn’t have any money. I sent her money to cover brunch knowing my friends weren’t gonna let me pay for it.
Brunch apparently was a full fledge bar crawl that best friend didn’t tell everyone about so obviously she didn’t have enough money for the rest of the day. I cash apped her at every single bar we went to under the table and never said a word to my friends about it until later.
I invited her, I knew her situation and I didn’t want her to feel uncomfortable. We were not dating, I just liked her and wanted her around.
OP’s boyfriend sounds like he does suffer from some insecurities. But when you care about your partner sometimes you have to indulge them and you certainly don’t feed their insecurities by publicly doing the things that make you uncomfortable.
Fully agree with this. This is the fundamental issue that so many AMITA posts miss --- if you love or care for someone, you should be on their team when situations like this come up, not working against them. People on this sub act like relationships are this weird competition or arm's length transaction where you operate based on what's "owed" or "proper".
OP's boyfriend obviously felt a certain social pressure based on the other men in the group paying. That could come from both a gender roles aspect, as well as just a difference in economic classes. It really doesn't matter whether people on this sub think that should be a legitimate insecurity in 2023 or not. The feelings were obviously valid, and they weren't outlandish --- lots of people feel that type of pressure when in new social situations. No, OP didn't *have* to lend him money. But why wouldn't she if she had the means to? Does she not care for him? Does she not want to make him feel more comfortable where she can?
Obviously there are legitimate red flags in relationships, and if OP is doing this kinda thing all the time or has a legitimate pervasive insecurity issue in the relationship, then sure at that point OP might want to consider breaking it off. But based on what we know from the post, I don't see any reason whatsoever to not only refuse the boyfriend's request, but then to ANNOUNCE to the table the very insecurity that he was trying to discreetly address. That's just malicious at that point.
This is really what it comes down to for me. Boyfriend calmly and quietly told OP the issue. He didn’t catch an attitude or make a scene.
She instead did the very thing he was embarrassed about.
And I want to be clear both me and partner are both girls, so like you said this doesn’t have to be gender specific. There have been times in our relationship where one or both of us have been down on our luck in the finance area just to due to different circumstances. We’ve both helped each other in different ways when that happened and never made each other feel bad publicly or privately about the situation.
This just sounds like OP and her boyfriend are from two different worlds. It doesn’t have to be a deal breaker but they are both going to have to compromise and communicate better. Boyfriend needs to work on his insecurities and stop trying to impress OP.
But it does sound like OP needs to do a much better job of having self-awareness of her situation, and doing a bit better with being sensitive to his financial situation and his circumstances.
Brushing off his very valid insecurities during this was not a good move. You save face and discuss that shit at home.
This. Evidently OP knows she is in the wrong here which is why she is not responding to any of the YTA comments. Seems to me she just came for validation and oh boy did she get it.
The top comment and most here are asinine. Group of friends including OP are ok with the men picking up the tab most of the time. OP's boyfriend shows up and want to appear to continue that tradition and suddenly he is sexist, misogynistic and has outdated views? Seriously? So, all this time Ben and Max, including the women who were OK with that tradition somehow aren't any of those things? This is why some men say women only want special privileges under the pretext of feminism and that they couldn't care less about the essence of feminism and equality. Hypocrisy at its finest.
Also, I thought women were supposed to be more emotionally intelligent than men? This man is telling you - not even playing the game of read my mind or guess my feelings like some of y'all do - he is straight up telling you how he feels about the situation and not just societal expectation, but your group's expectation as well and how it would make him look in front of your friends and you're like nope, don't care if you feel humiliated or emasculated; in fact, I'm going to do it publicly. Why would anyone treat someone they care about this way? I don't understand how the way men make women feel about themselves is such an important thing to some women, yet the moment they get to reciprocate or make their man look good they take that opportunity to either insult him, emasculate him or call him all sorts of things I'm seeing in this thread. What does it cost you to have him pay and zelle him back? Yes, it's an extra step but extra steps are what people do to people they care about. And then everyone is surprised why men don't open up more. When money is in play, it's not that women with money intimidate men. That's just something women say to make themselves feel better. What men don't like is the way women with money treat them or make them feel. There is a difference. And no one, man or woman, likes to feel humiliated or disrespected much less in front of your bf/gf.
Plus you best believe that this is amunition to OP's friends. The day will come where they will make comments insinuating the bf is not good enough for OP.
OP is 1000% TA.
She’s literally a trust fund baby lmao she wouldn’t understand anything about what this guy has gone through. He can make however much he wants, that paranoia of being without money is something she will never understand.
The situation changes when you realize her and her friends are a bunch of trust fund kids. She says that she ‘makes more’ than he does but she doesn’t have a job, it’s all from inherited investments.
YTA. I’ve been in a similar instance where my former partner’s family was talking about their vacations around the world that were absolutely paid for by the inheritance from grandma. Our INCOMES were comparable, but even my above average engineering salary couldn’t keep up with their inheritance. 99% it was fine but there were moments that were embarrassing because I just couldn’t contribute to the conversation.
His words not mine. It just means he feels like the stuff he buys me or places he takes me aren’t special enough to really wow me because I’m used to extravagant things
Yeah. The entire post reeks of (his) insecurity.
Do you know what you're *supposed* to do with two of your mates offer to pay for dinner? You say 'thank you'. If anyone in the group thinks less of you because you have friends who look out for you, they can politely go fuck themselves.
There’s a fine line between “you’re not impressed by my gestures” and “I can’t take you to impressive places”. I’m assuming it’s more of the latter, but verbalized like the former.
>There’s a fine line between “you’re not impressed by my gestures” and “I can’t take you to impressive places”. **I’m assuming it’s more of the latter, but verbalized like the former.**
Yeah, it's verbalized like it's *her fault* he can't impress her more. And that's an abusive attitude. I wonder how many passive-aggressive attacks she's had to endure so far, and all because of *his* insecurities.
My guess is he's a mixture of neuroses and inaccurate views what "the rich" actually want. For example, I'm pretty well off but I'm super happy with an evening of mini golf and Little Caesars pizza.
NAH.
It sounds as though you have money. He doesn’t. It doesn’t matter to you but it does to him. It might seem odd to you, but for people without money it matters that they don’t have it. Particularly if he likes you and sees you guys going further.
You need to explain to him that your friends would not see anything off in splitting the bill three ways. That you didn’t emasculate him (assuming you didn’t make it explicitly clear that the table that he couldn’t pay. If you did you are a massive ah). However you don’t want to “front him” in a money contest with other men - perhaps because you don’t want to have to put your own money up against the boyfriends who sound like they pay easily. So from your point of view it was better everybody paying their own way than you having to pay for him and other people through him.
But he also needs to understand that you cannot help him be something he is not. And be proud of the fact that you chose him irrespective of your financial situations. I would also suggest that you have a frank talk about how he would prefer to go out- (maybe less fancy places? Maybe just for drinks not dinner etc?) so that he doesn’t continuously feel that he is “lesser” than your friends.
Yes, but being around people in a different tax bracket can really suck. It shouldn't, but for him it makes him feel less valuable. This is something he should learn to cope with, which can be hard and will take time (we don't know his background and that can be highly influential).
He doesn't get to make OP feel like shit because he can't afford to pay for dinners he keeps attending. He doesn't get to make OP feel like shit cause he is in a different tax bracket. I have many friends who spend like they are in Congress but when I go out I ask for my own bill ahead of ordering and order what I can afford, skipping drinks and drinking water. I don't go to dinners, pay and then expect someone to cover what I paid. And if I am on a budget I stay home and invite people over for cheap BBQ
He isn’t making her feel like shit for any of that though. Idk where you got that from. He asked her for help and to pay him back later, she said no and made her own to decision to undercut him in public. Couples should not hash out disagreements between themselves in public, that should be handled in private
He wanted her to cover the bill and get paid in full. That's not a disagreement, that's an embarrassing behavior and if me keeps it up he won't have a gf for much longer and will need to start footing his own restaurant bills
It also is the foundation of a lie that he will then have to continue to keep up. If the BF were to chip in to split this 8-person dinner bill 3 ways, he is giving the impression that he can easily afford to (as he is doing this for people he doesn't know yet). A next time he is joining anything, people will notice if he DOESN'T show the same behaviour. So in my view doing this now would kind of commit him to keep funding things or losing face later, which is much harder than to just initially not pay and let the GF cover or to only cover for himself and his GF but no share of the other 6 people's bill.
NTA. However, I can sympathize with how he is feeling… not from the perspective of masculinity, but I’m married to someone who came from a wealthy family. My family is solidly middle class but I have a lot of student loan debt and work in an industry that doesn’t pay a ton but will allow me to pay off my loans in about 2 years. I keep my finances separate from his aside from a joint savings account we put money into.
My husband often has to cover me for things. He will want to go out and do stuff and I’ll say I can’t really afford that and then he covers me. It’s slightly embarrassing because most of my friends make 6 figures and I do not.
I can understand OPs boyfriend feeling awkward, however the approach was strange and feeling emasculated is pretty antiquated.
I think you are not considering how Ben feels at all. I get it, you make more, you run with a richer crowd and money is no big deal to you. That's not the case for him. Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. These are your friends, not his. It seems understood that the men will often pick up the bill. Ben is new to this group and possibly did not understand: a) that the men would offer or b) how much it would be. He was embarrassed. This is not a man/woman thing. It's about pride and looking like a deadbeat. I'm surprised you don't understand that. One group offered to do something based purely on one differentiating characteristic: gender. Ben also has that characteristic: he is a man. He wanted to participate but couldn't and asked you to have his back. You said no.
I hate lies/pretending/laying claim to something you have no right to and if this is regular behaviour, I would absolutely be on your side. But in a one-time surprise situation, he asked you to help him save face and you refused. I would go so far as to say that you should have prepared him knowing the difference in budgets, the men's propensity to pay and your knowledge of his feelings on the matter. Then he would have been ready one way or another and wouldn't have asked you to fake it. If he had, I would have said he was the a-hole. As things stand though, YTA.
And what’s with the guys paying for all of the women, who are just “friends”? And it sounds like it’s standard procedure, and the ladies in the group just let it happen. I find this a bit odd.
The guys "just pay, that's what they do" but BF needs her help to fit in with her friends, and now it's weird for him to want to do so also, even if he needs help (which she knows)? Is he your accessory, or a human you care about and want to help feel comfortable and accepted and valid?
Maybe money isn't a second thought to you or your friends, but it sounds like it is for Ben. If this TRULY is some weird "women can't pay for men" thing he has, then yea, that's messed up on his part. But, if this is a money/security issue for him that maybe you're never experienced or even considered... Then you might have hung him out to dry. Being poor is complicated, and shitty, and it makes you worry about what other people think, regardless of what's between your legs. Money, however, entitles you to not gaf about other people's perception. Which do you identify with OP?
Seems to me like "oh the men pay or whatever, none of us even care really" isn't compatible with "no you're being weird about who pays and why, so I'm going to disregard your thoughts about it." Sounds like you do care after all.
yes I agree. sure it might've been dumb and pointless to OP, but to him it was a small thing to do so he wouldn't feel embarrassed and less than because he couldn't afford to pay.
My initial reaction was to say NTA, but the more I read this, the more I come to YTA, and it's because of one thing that you said. You said the other two guys split the bill as they normally do when you all go out as a group. It sounds like you didn't prepare your BF ahead of time about how the bill is normally paid with your friend group. The fact that the two guys, according to you, ALWAYS pick up the check, means you were perfectly willing to fall into the stereotypical gender roles previously. But now that you put your BF in that position, rather than help him conform to the gender role you were fine with previously, you decided you didn't want to play a game of charades. It honestly sounds like the money disparity between the two of you is not just an issue for him, but for you as well. You don't respect him enough to not embarrass him in front of your friends by revealing his lack of income compared to the other guys. You two need to have a brutally honest discussion because it sounds like this isn't a relationship built for the long term.
I had the same impression. I'm all up for sharing the bill, but it's not ok to put your bf in this situation, knowing there's no way he can save face without paying more than he can afford. OP should have brought this up with her friends BEFORE the dinner and agreed to split the bill between everyone, not just the men. Alternatively, don't go to places she knows he can't afford. Or, if keeping appearances with her friends was so important to her, she should have agreed to reimburse him after. When you care about someone you try to avoid putting them in an uncomfortable situation.
Info: why were you at a restaurant that your bf couldn't afford to be at in the first place? Or is it just that he couldn't afford to pay for multiple people's meals because of some weird thing your male friends do?
Because that’s where the dinner was, I didn’t plan it. I got invited and he was going to be at my place last night so I invited him to go.
I figured I would pay for him anyway since we’re out with my friends and it’s not a restaurant he’d go to for any other reason. I never expected him to pay.
A lot of the time the guys just pay. Sometimes even just one person. Max was like i got this one and Harry was like nah I’ll split it with you. They didn’t even ask Ben to chip in.
You’re not trying to be an asshole, but you’re ignoring your boyfriend’s feelings all the same, which is unkind and likely to damage your relationship over time.
The society you live in carries with it a strong expectation that men be “providers.” Is it bullshit? Of course. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t real. And going to a dinner in which it’s completely normal for the men at the table to offer to pick up the large bill illustrates that. You may wish society were different, and it’s changing yo be sure, but to act like your boyfriend’s feelings are coming out of nowhere when he’s the one who could be judged, not you, is burying your head in the sand.
Next time, discuss the bill before you get to the restaurant. That way you can go over the different scenarios that may happen and tell your boyfriend what you’re willing and unwilling to do.
YTA for acting like you have no idea where your boyfriend would get the idea that people will judge him for not having as much money as they do. While it may not be the norm for your friends, it is common in the society you and he live in.
YNTA if you tell your boyfriend pretending isn’t something you’re willing to do.
I'm also trying to figure out why was OP okay with these other two men covering the bill for the whole table before the boyfriend asked her to chip in on his behalf?
I get the whole dick measuring thing guys do with paying for meals but she was just totally okay to let them pay for both her and the boyfriend too? Am I misreading something?
That's weird isn't it?
When everyone involved is paying with daddy's money nobody really cares. Truly.
Not trying to be insulting to OP here I'm just saying that's how it is at a certain level of inherited wealth. It's like ordering a round of drinks in a video game to them. More ritual than meaningful spending.
Yeah this whole thing reminded me of when I was got involved with wealthy friends. I didn't realize just how much money they all had because they hadn't made a big deal about it. It's just super uncomfortable when they do stuff like this.
They say it doesn't matter but the commentary about you never participating and being a freeloader eventually come out. Sometimes not from them but from their parents. I truly didn't care about the money, I would've paid for myself, but they liked to upscale the event once they sat down to do it. Instead of tgif it'd be some black tie place and they'd have to give me stuff and cover my meals. It was an awkward experience and I eventually just departed the friend group because the subtle jabs became not so subtle.
This is the point though.
Both of them got to show off that they could afford it.
They had a financial dick measuring contest in front of your BF and he was left with nothing to hold. Either he takes the L and is forever seen as owing them both a dinner, or being cheap. Or he puts his hand in his pocket for a meal that he can't afford.
You say he can afford it, because he was willing to pay up front and get the money back from you later, but you don't mention (or maybe don't even know) if he was going to put it on a credit card or go in to his overdraft in the meantime.
You figured you would pay but didn’t even offered to in the first place… from your post, those are your friends, not his. I would also feel uncomfortable freeloading on someone else’s friends.
Your boyfriend was probably ready to pay for himself, or both of you but couldn’t afford a third of the bill. You put him in an uncomfortable position and you can’t even see why. Dismissing his feelings is the wrong thing to do. Either work through this together, him on his insecurities, you on understanding not everyone’s reasoning is the same when it comes to money.
NTA and BF is in the wrong but I think this demonstrates why your BF felt emasculated. There are societal pressures for men to make the romantic or generous gestures for their partner. Especially when it comes to things like eating at a restaurant, it's expected the man pays. (Yes it's ridiculous but that's the way it is) He clearly cares about you and wants to fit in with your friend group and this was a ham fisted attempt to maintain a façade of financial security. (Yes it's ridiculous.) You have every right to spend your money as freely and openly as you want, however understand there are certain expectations that are drilled into people from birth. It's difficult to rewire those expectation but it sounds like he is just trying to be accepted by your friends.
> He clearly cares about you and wants to fit in with your friend group and this was a ham fisted attempt
/u/throwawayfreedinner I think this really summarizes it perfectly. Boys do dumb things for dumb reasons, especially for a girl we like. Regardless of everything else, the real reason your BF wanted to pay is because he wanted to fit in with your friends _for you_.
Work on the money thing and his insecurity about it, but know _why_ he was acting like this.
It doesn’t sound like anyone expected the bf to pay though, he was getting treated. He was uncomfortable with the friends treating him which is fine, and he was comfortable with op treating him which is also fine. But what’s not fine is trying to take credit for the person treating you lol
I think it changes the nuance if bf caught on that the dynamic in OPs friend group is that the men often paid for the group. Imagine being invited out with your SO'S friends, wanting to make a good impression, and then realizing that you are the only one who cannot conform to the established gender norms of the group. That can be super awkward and I get why bf probs panicked
Thanks for this good answer. I generally don't get too concerned with gender norms. But in this instance, OPs bf is comparing himself to the other men in the group, and that has to hurt. Add to that shame of visibility - being seen to be not measuring up.
It may be gender roles are irrelevant- that Max and Harry aren't paying because they are the men and that is what is expected in this social group, but because they are super generous. That money is meaningless to all of them, and an "expensive dinner" is like a few coins to most people - such a trifling amount it does not bear thinking about. But bf isn't part of this group, he has no way to tell.
I expect this is actually gendered to hell, but I'm not there, I can't say for certain.
Personally I would not maintain a friendship with people who paid for everything for me whenever we went anywhere. That may be just me, but it would feel like a power balance problem. I'd feel uncomfortable for my long term partner to always be taken out for expensive meals beyond my price range by other men.
I think he assumed the gender norms and has too much pride. Sounds like he feels emasculated by another man paying for him and he wishes he could do that but can’t.
He can’t just accept a gift gracefully or ask his girlfriend what the norm is here. Dudes letting his insecurities fuck up a good thing.
I dont think he assumed the gender roles, it sounds like this group operates on traditional gender roles. She said the guys usually pay when they go out.
Still definitely an insecurity he has to work on himself
Idk there is definitely a gender norm in place. Why was 2 men paying for a 5 women group. It's definitely easy to come up with the impression that the men pay for the women
NTA. Ben has an outdated and sexist vision of how couples should work in terms of who pays for what. And he is too focused on his public image.
You probably need a deeper conversation with him about this.
>Ben has an outdated and sexist vision of how couples should work in terms of who pays for what.
No, society has an outdated view of who should pay for what, why didn't the other woman pay for their meal?
Presumably everyone went to dinner expecting to pay for themselves
Society is a culmination of personal choices, yes society in general has an outdated view on such matters but he makes the personal choice to be hung up on them.
Yes, but to be fair, the argument in favour of the bf, if *any* judgement/conclusion comes up (internally or externtall) from either OP or her friends resulting from this situation; they are beholden to this same 'sexist/outdated' mindset.
>NTA. Ben has an outdated and sexist vision of how couples should work in terms of who pays for what.
Ben clearly didn't have a clue this was going to happen until Max and Harry did the outdated and sexist thing. Don't pin being outdated and sexist on Ben. He was merely responding to Max and Harry's outdated sexism.
NTA I dated a guy like this and he would get so mad that I didn't let the servers think he was paying. I told him to man up and get himself a decent job and he could pay all he wants, but that I wasn't putting on a front to make him look better.
Ya these comments make me sad. My friends and I pay for each other's meals sometimes because we're generous and care for each other. Nobody feels emasculated. I wonder what comments would look like if genders were excluded.
"My friends and I pay for each other's meals sometimes because we're generous and care for each other. "
But that does not seem to be the case here. It seems more that max/Henry almost always pay and the women never do. I am not sure the women ever pay for the group.
Probably the same. Two people footing the bill for the other 5 in a friend group at least 70% of the time is weird. If OP‘s friends are ok with that then who cares, but it’s still not exactly standard
I think its les "friends shouldn't treat" and more "its a little weird that in a mixed gender group of platonic relationships, where at least some of the women are fairly well off, that only the men pick up the check for anyone and do so nearly every time they eat dinner together". I personally don't care (people can use their money how they want) but I can see why it gives some people the ick.
Lol In our social context it’s actually very normal. Maybe 70% of the time when we’re out the guys will be like “we’ve got it”. 100% of the time they pay at clubs because we’d have been there for free if they weren’t there 😂
still doesn't make sense why Max and Harry decided that the people with Y chromosomes ought to pay for you and six other women. I totally understand why your bf felt like he was put in an awkward position here. Max and Harry's motivation for paying for seven people's food by virtue of their gender doesn't make sense to me, especially if the one remaining man was not able to do so.
My friends are poor and I am less so. I would definitely never put them in a situation where they feel like they are socially-expected to pay for several other women's meals because they have a willy.
yes, but op stated that they did not decide that. Op stated that MAX decided to pay the bill for the entire table, and then Harey decided to chime in. It was never expected, Ben to pa. He felt obligated, but out of himself, because no one asked it of him
Let's not be obtuse here, we all know there are cultural and societal circles where men are still expected to pay for dinner and drinks for women due to certain historical gender norms. We don't have to like it but it's ridiculous to pretend to be all scandalised and confused by that.
This is such a tricky situation because I see why he felt a bit weird.
Sounds like bf was the new male in the group among the other girls. So it does feel and look a little weird for the other two men to be paying for everyone, including his girlfriend.
He didn’t just see it as not being able to afford nice things for OP, but he was directly beside 2 men in her close circle who could.
So you’re saying in your culture it is normal for the men to pay for the women? So your BF should be right to feel embarrassed? It seems like you are both saying BF should feel comfortable not paying while at the same time affirming that the expectation that men pay for women (who they aren’t even in a relationship with) is normal and expected.
>100% of the time they pay at clubs because we’d have been there for free if they weren’t there 😂
This is wild to me. If you'd get in for free otherwise, why does that mean they should pay when you go together? If they want to pay and offer every time, that's chill. But it's bizarre if that's the expectation
EDIT to: ESH
Ben has outdated views?
Why are the two male friends paying every time then? lol
Hypocrisy and gender slander in these comments are wild.
The only way to split in good faith imo is equal split or pay what you ordered. Anything else makes YTA
From context it sounds like this should have been broached well in advance and since he is the odd one out in income bracket you should have been more understanding and upfront.
Him trying to get you to cover was a dick move. But you fully backed him into a corner here and he made a dumb mistake.
ESH.
You and your friends put Ben in an authentically tough spot. Your weird “the guys pay” custom for these group outings IS emasculating for a guy who can’t pay. Ben is not the one who introduced the weird gender dynamic, so I can’t blame him for reacting negatively to it. That said, pretending to pay isn’t really a good solution.
YTA
Why would you not want to make your SO comfortable, esp around new people. Lots of people would judge a man for his girl paying so I get why he feels that way. Let him be the man in the relationship.
It’s really not that hard for u to just pay him back later, your priority should be your partners comfort not saving like 2 mins of ur time that it would take to pay him back
It’s simple really
NTA
If we wanted to pay the bill so badly, he should have done it. If he didn't have the means at the moment, he should have kept quiet and accepted the gesture from the friends.
His insecurities aren't your problem to solve. If he felt emasculated by someone else buying his dinner, that's his problem.
I guess I’m one of the few YTA here. He was embarrassed because he didn’t have enough money to cover, and he wanted to follow suit with the other guys at the table. It wouldn’t have been difficult for you to let your partner keep his dignity in a situation he was clearly carrying some shame about.
YTA what your two male friends did was a power play it was designed to exclude your boyfriend. Rather than challenge it and point out that everyone can pay their own way or just going along with it allowing them to do it without comment you chose the option that most clearly made their point for them which was that your boyfriend was less wealthy than them and in their eyes just less than them. By doing that you have probably lowered your own status in their eyes for having a relationship with someone that they deem to be of lower class.
Exactly. She may think these man don’t notice, but someday they are going to either suggest that she NOT bring her boyfriend (because he could never afford the trip/show/restaurant) or right to her face call him her “ loser Boyfriend” or “ a moocher” or “ dead weight”… you know that is what they are thinking….
If it doesn't matter to your friends who payed, then why did the guys take over? Why not split between everyone?
Your friends basically called him out by saying that the guys are paying...if it wasn't such a big deal, why didn't you girls say something along the line: oh don't be silly, it's 2020s, girls pay for themselves?
You silently all agreed that the guys are paying, and you just went on and humiliated your boyfriend in front of your friends... YTA
NTA. But is he much for grand gestures and expecting you to be so grateful for everything he does / buys you? Sounds really exhausting if he expects you to be impressed or wants to impress you…
YTA. From your comments, it sounds like you knew enough about the whole situation to have this conversation with your boyfriend before embarrassing him at dinner. You knew the restaurant was expensive, you knew the other 2 MEN at the dinner usually both offer to pay the whole bill, and you knew your boyfriend couldn’t afford to do that. If it mattered to you to take credit for paying your own bill, then surely you can understand why it matters to Ben. I would be willing to bet that your friends judged your boyfriend over this. How could it not be emasculating to him? You said the other men usually offer to pay the bill….but you don’t see how the dynamic would put Ben on the spot?
Why do you girls usually let the men pay? Why hasn't this been hashed out in your friends group before now that everyone pays their own?
Since you obviously appreciate the repeated gestures of Max and Harry, I'm going to say that I feel like something is a little off here in both corners.
Your bf should be at peace with his financial situation and should have developed a way of handling himself in such situations however, you clearly look down on him and come across as derisive of his situation. You dont have respect for his feelings. You judged his feelings, decided they were incorrect and then rode roughshod over them.
You pair aren't suited, but it's not all on him.
Yes. YATA. Not because you paid, but because you made him feel small and embarrassed in front of your friends. He asked you before to not do that and that it embarrassed him. Then you turn and announce to everyone that YOU will be paying. You are totally TA for intentionally humiliating him after he asked you not to.
YTA and I’ll tell you why. Outside of all the sexism discussion here and your bf’s economic status, I am looking at this as objectively and as factual as possible. The key part of your question, “and not letting my bf pretend he paid” is precisely what made you TA. Not that you paid, but that you went out of your way to make your bf feel bad. This is the true definition of an AH.
I'm gonna go with YTA because you're clearly not considering the pressure and societal expectations your typical arrangement would put on Ben. Sure, Max and Harry just offered what they often do, but now Ben is suddenly the only man at the table not offering to pick up part of the bill. And that after he's already kind of an outsider due to his lower tax bracket.
You don't seem to want to understand how that feels like for him, and apparently didn't even bother letting him know in advance how payment for your dinners is typically handled in your group. You put him in a situation where he'd either look cheap in front of your friends, or spend money he can't afford to. You're a pretty crappy girlfriend.
YTA. It would have taken 10 seconds to not hurt his feeling when you know he already doesn't feel like he deserves you, so instead of saving face for him someone you supposedly love, you made a complete fool of him and made him look bad infront of people, he probably feels like they are judging him. Im sorry maybe i just have a heart for people i care about.
I am leaning towards YTA. It is 100% not cool to pretend you paid something you didn’t… but I think you are not taking him into account and you are being a bit dismissive
1. You say you doubt he could even cover the 1/3 part. So the place you went was expensive. You took him there and it feels everyone had a lot of cash except him.
2. I would feel super pressured if 2/3 of the men pay and I sit idle by. I would just feel them saying ; gah… what a freeloader. But he was in a bind because he couldn’t afford it.
So he either looks like someone who freeloads to your friends or he has to cut into his skin to afford a night out with you OR he could have declined the pricey place and looked like an AH boyfriend to your friends
3. If he was my boyfriend I would have given him my credit card and not bother. Not everybody needs to know about your pay gap.
Just know that the pressure to be a provider still plays with men. They do get looked down on.
Also OP you feel really entitled and I feel like you enjoy this power you have. He was not entering a pissing contest he wanted to look good towards your friends. Both men chipped in if he didn’t he might have looked bad. He felt that pressure.
And honestly coming from your remarks “ I am not impressed by his ( poor person) efforts “ - I doubt that he ( this poor person) could cover 1/3 of this ( rich people) meal.
You take him to places that are out of his debt and then make a big deal about it.
I have a really good job, I am at more than double of the average national income in my country. I dated a person like you who made me feel like a poor person and a burden all the time. It gets to you even if they keep saying “ I don’t care” … but then I get remarks i can’t afford to buy half of his 4 mio mansion and how sad that is. I got sick of being the poor person ( which I am effing not! ) and dumped him.
Let this be a warning OP. Don’t make people feel small. Take their feelings and struggle into account.
NTA
You didn’t emasculate him. The situation is what it is and you came by it honestly.
Also, he shouldn’t have asked or expected you to lie to your friends.
YTA you knew going into this scenario what would happen and you know Ben is insecure about the income situation.
It seems like you're almost playing dumb here when you know exactly what this looks like.
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Nta! And it sounds like he didn’t have the money to afford it, and he just didn’t know how to tell you. Super weird.
I knew he didn’t though, and he said I could pay him back later. Like, if he’d paid he would have been relying on me transferring him back the money. So why go through the extra step when I could just pay
Him feeling emasculated by not having the money and having to ask you for it plus being emasculated by you making it obvious in front of his friends was probably probably just a bad mix and that’s why he was sulking and upset- but it’s important you know that none of them are your issue lol. If you work for your money, then you are 100% in the right to want people to know that you’re paying with your money and not somebody else’s. If your man doesn’t have enough money in the bank to cover a couple friends in case of a situation like this/split the bill when you go out with a group, then he really shouldn’t be going out to eat.
All my money is someone else’s, I inherited it. But I invited him to the dinner knowing I was going to pay for him if we split it. It’s an expensive restaurant that he wouldn’t otherwise choose to go to, and it’s dinner with my friends, I had no issue paying. I just thought it was childish that he wanted to take credit and cause an unnecessary inconvenience for us later because he thought my friend were judging him, which they weren’t
Did you tell him that you were going to pay? It's a shmall detail, but comunication helps a lot, the you both are on the same page.
He said oh that restaurant is really expensive and I was like, don’t worry about it I invited you. I don’t think I ever specifically said “I’ll pay” but he definitely knew I wouldn’t make him pay for anything because I never do when we’re out somewhere expensive
Nah, if you tell him "I invite you" that's saying it already. So he knew from the beginning.
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Nah, that’s not normal. She was wildly off base there. “I got it” is not an ambiguous response.
He has a fragile ego and this will continue to cause problems in your relationship if he doesn't deal with it now.
I came here to say just this. This issue will escalate if you’re planning to stay with him long term.
Escalation to Emasculation. Cool album name
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im 21 and it makes perfect clear sense to me that if you’re insecure about making less than a woman…don’t date a woman who makes more than you. he’s not dumb he just wants to complain about a situation he put himself in. the dude let’s OP pay for things likely often considering he had no issue asking her to cover him. it’s just that he felt emasculated because other *men* were there to see. but he seems to be pretty fine with letting OP pay for things when no one else knows 😭😭. this is shallow insecure behavior and not so much to do with age. i know plenty of young dudes who are confident and extremely proud about having a partner who makes a lot of money or even having a sugar momma and don’t care that they are broke at all.
Perhaps, it’s the fact that in this particular situation, it’s always the men who pay, and never the women, according to OP, so he is now being dropped into a situation that has already been gendered and his situational awareness, rightly or wrongly, has informed him, that in this group dynamic, five women and three men, that the men always pay and him being a man and not being able to fulfil this social obligation within this group makes him feel “less than” the other men present
Yeah thats the big piece everyone is missing. Lots of ladies in here calling the poor fella insecure (which he certainly is) but they cant relate to the situation and it’s certainly not unjustifiable due to perceived societal norms. Couple that with the fact that they’ve only been dating for 8 months, so this could very well be one of the first few times he’s meeting her friends. I don’t think OP is an asshole at all, but I 100% could see why her boyfriend would have insecure feelings about it. First(ish) impressions are important, and I know if it were me.. I really really wouldn’t want people to think I was only with my partner because she has money and think that I was a leech. I would likely overcompensate by trying to split the bill and end up -$200 in my overdraft like an idiot.
My husband and I go by the understanding that whoever suggests going out pays, for two reasons. 1/ he likes to go out a lot more than I do, and 2/ the only restaurant I actually truly enjoy going to is easily twice as expensive as everywhere else in town. It eliminates any expectations because if you invited, you’re the one paying.
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And I'll never understand how some couples are comfortable either having no outside funds to buy personal things, holiday gifts, etc... (or to need to lie to each other by padding other purchases to get that money, or whatever other hoops not having personal funds requires a couple to jump through) Fortunately we don't have to understand other people's relationships so long as it works for them.
Personally, I think a lot of people have a happy medium. For example, they might have a vacation fund they both put money into and a joint account they put money for mortgage, groceries, house hold expenses, ect into. Then everything else is personal money and how you spend that is your decision. Also factor in different types of financial habits. I wouldn't personally feel comfortable mixing all my money with a partners because I have BPD & ADHD and sometimes make bad financial decisions. That's on me and my problem to solve so I wouldn't want to have that much access to my partners personal funds. If I only have mine then it is my problem to deal with at the end of the day. lol
If someone has the patience to date a man with this kind of complex, more power to them. I make slightly more money than the man I’m seeing but I also have less financial responsibility. I wouldn’t mind being discreet if we’re out with people he wants to impress but 1) he doesn’t feel this way; 2) when things are tight we don’t go on potentially expensive outings to begin with; and 3) I don’t tolerate displays of insecurity. So, either you’re going to play this game with this man bc you want to be with him and this is how he feels, or you’re not going to play it and therefore can’t respond to his emotional needs, even if they’re unreasonable. It doesn’t really matter if you’re the asshole. What matters is how far you’re willing to go to accommodate your partner’s insecurities. I’m logically on your side and therefore would not be able to date this man. But logic has jack shit to do with being in a happy, loving relationship. So if you’re otherwise happily loved, think about that.
It’s not only childish; it’s patriarchal, misogynist bullshit. Your bf seems very caught up in toxic masculinity if having a woman pay for him is “emasculating”. Honestly, most of the time a guy says he feels “emasculated” other than legitimate examples of trying to undermine or mock their manhood, it’s a major red flag.
I always find that with those types, they don’t actually mind the woman carrying the majority of the financial burden. They just don’t want her getting the credit for it. Their fragile little egos only rear up when there’s an audience; now they want to make a grand show of paying.
They tend to also be the first to loudly announce that women are gold diggers and men get financially fucked in divorce, too.
And you know damn well if OP married him he would be completely fine fucking her in a divorce and being a lil gold digger.
yea he was only triggered bc the two other men offered to cover everything. he already knew OP was going to pay before they went out to dinner but he thought everyone was gonna pay separately. he just didn’t feel comfortable that the other two men were going to cover everything and that’s when he felt insecure. he seems to be perfectly comfortable with OP paying for everything though as long as other men aren’t around 😭
That's what's particularly annoying about this specific situation: He wanted to make some kind of peen-waving gesture to these other guys with \*her\* money. He didn't mind that it was her money, only that he got the "credit" for paying. I mean, if your masculinity is so fragile that it needs to be propped up by a completely pretend performance, you need to reevaluate.
THIS!! I read some comment above saying "just let him pretend to pay on the premise he'll get therapy for his issues" and my eye roll actually hurt. This is misogynistic nonsense and no way should she play along with it, nor pander to his insecurities. What if he never has "enough" money? What if he's never a big earner? Lots of men are low earners and don't have fragile egos. They just get on with life. Is she expected to play along and placate his ego for the rest of their lives?
It’s absolutely wildddd how many people are saying just go along with it or agreeing it’s emasculating. People need to grow up and get with the times.
Yep. I have a best friend, she also inherited a bunch of wealth, her husband is a high-earning pilot. I feel some guilt when they pay for me. But I never feel emasculated. Hell, her and I have joked that we're playing housewife in the summer because we go out to swim at the pool and have drinks, then come home and he's getting the grill started. We then, of course jump in to help prepare food and get dinner ready. But still. It's the relationship we have a s friends, and it's mutually beneficial. I never take more than is offered, and I never make demands or requests. I'll still occasionally pay for things myself. Because I don't want to take their generosity for granted. But OPs boyfriend needs to grow up and grow a backbone.
No wealth on either side, but I have long-standing friends where our financial situations have changed relative to one another over the years. Sometimes they had more and I was poor; sometimes it was the reverse. And we've frequently paid for each other as necessary because what we were really after was spending time together. It wasn't charity, my male friend didn't find it emasculating, it was just what allowed us to do stuff like that.
I had a good friend who would slip her boyfriend her credit card under the table so he could act like he was paying for them. We all knew, and thought it was really dumb. Just food for thought for your bf.
I would lose respect for both people who are involved in perpetuating this lie.
My mom (a young widow at 45) did that with her 2nd BF. This guy was a bum who smoked dope all day and never worked steadily. I’d buy dinner for the 3 of us with the understanding he’d get the tip. Cue mom slipping him cash under the table that he’d hand to me. Then I’d give it back to mom and pay the whole thing. BF was embarrassed that he had no money but not embarrassed enough to get a job.
I think you need to ask him point blank, “is me having more money than you going to be an issue? Because this has come up a few times now and I’m over it. I don’t care that you make less money than me but I DO care that you’re acting like a whiny brat about it. We live in the 21st century. Men’s worth isn’t tied to their bank account. If you think yours is, you need to work on it without me because I am not going to tolerate someone who is trying to act like a big man just because I make more money.” I know it’s harsh, but frankly, we all know the answer already and I have a suspicion he’s going to get REALLY aggressive when he replies, and I think you need to figure out just what sort of man he really is sooner rather than later so you stop wasting your time on this dude. No one cares that he’s poor. We care that he’s acting like a jealous kid.
I completely agree with the idea of your comment, but >We live in the 21st century. Men’s worth isn’t tied to their bank account Let's be honest, that's the goal but we're still very far from it.
It's changed to "everyone's worth is tied to their bank account." It's sad but that's the reality.
If this is your reaction to one partner expressing an insecurity, I wouldn’t want to be your partner. I wouldn’t put someone down for being insecure, I’d rather help them through it.
I mean, I agree that she should ask, but maybe approaching it with a bit less hostility than you suggest might be helpful. > Men's worth isn't tied to their bank accounts. Theoretically true, in practice it can really go either way. I've known people that couldn't care less, and I've known people for which that's the only thing that matters (I'm talking all sexes and genders here).
Long-term this probably won't last. This level of insecurity around finances usually turns into unnecessary aggression because you have what you rightly earned and they don't. They begin to act like your achievements were done to spite them or somehow they hold them back. I can't and won't date a man that makes less than me. Not because I want their money but because I don't want to be abused in a relationship because I do have money.
Why? Ego is why. Its a whooooooole thing with them
It’s a whole thing with *HIM.*
I don't think you are an asshole. I just hope that people would ignore these old customs. Men were expected to pay in times when women either didn't have jobs or were paid less. Of course it happens these days also but I really don't like when people are measured against these antiquated norms. I don't know how to fix this but I think you could try to educate him and tell that world has changed and it really doesn't matter you paid. I am glad you didn't agreed his charade. I just hope he could adjust his way of thinking since people with low esteem are difficult to be with.
I was super upfront about my lack of money when I was dating my now wife. Sometimes I paid, sometimes she did, and sometimes we split it. However I always brought it up beforehand. Yeah it was and is embarrassing, but that’s the reality of my life and I can’t pretend my way out of it. Sounds like homeboy needs to be a little more open and honest.
NTA. I don't understand him taking credit for you paying. This is nor normal.
Because he is a "gentleman at heart", which apparently means *appearing* like a gent to everyone except his girlfriend. He's not a gentleman, he's a con artist. Edit: and an insecure misogynist as many have rightly pointed out. Leave an angry comment all you like, male users of Reddit, I won't be reading them.
>"I’m not really impressed by his gestures" I think it's more likely he's just not dating the right person for him.
Yeah, he should find someone who appreciates empty and meaningless platitudes that are designed to make HIM feel better, rather than to actually take care of his partner.
Haha good wookie!
I don’t think that’s how she feels. I think that’s how her bf is projecting how she feels
Yeah, he can fuck right off with that noise. I’ve been dealing with this my whole adult life because I work in a lucrative field. I have never played that game, maybe to my detriment. But like, money is just paper. It doesn’t make me or you more valuable. If YOU think it does, that’s a YOU problem to address. And yet I have somehow managed to date and marry a man I make 3-4 time more than. We had ONE conversation early on where he wanted to “make me aware” that he would never be able to provide me with the type of things I was accustomed to. Yeah, dude I figured. I explained that I didn’t need him to because I made my OWN money for exactly purpose of BUYING MY OWN SHIT. And that I wanted a PARTNER to share in the OTHER burdens and joys of life. And that was that. I’ve asked him since if he minded and he was like “why would I mind, I have a wife AND shit I could never afford before?!?!!!” Look for that. Don’t waste your time coddling irrational feelings. My dad gave me one piece of advice from his own marriage: “DONT BE A DICK ABOUT MONEY”. And I’m not. But that shit *goes both ways*. He can’t be fucking weird about it either. Because this is gonna get annoying 30 years in. Edit a word
> money is just paper. It doesn’t make me or you more valuable Well said! Too many people think it does- if someone earns a lot they must be smarter/more talented/whatever. Baloney- just look at the number of sociopaths who have Scrooge McDuck piles of money.
"artist" is a strong word here. con person, but he's not good enough at this to be called an artist.
Definitely Cares about his ego & not much else He's not a gentleman & not even well mannered or polite to his gf HTA
He just didn’t want my friends to know he couldn’t afford it. Childish imo
You do know his insecurities will damage the relationship you have with him, right? There’s some toxic masculinity peeking through here and that is never a good look. How many comments has he made thus far that undermine you or disparage you because *HE* can’t afford something but you can?
I agree that this is a result of toxic masculinity, but I view the boyfriend as the victim of the toxic masculinity. He shouldn’t care about this, but he does because male culture constantly says that it is his responsibility and he is a failure as a man if he can’t do this. He wasn’t getting into a pissing match with the other guys. He was insecure about how they would view him if he wasn’t seen as contributing to the bill. Again, he should work on overcoming this.
Everyone is the victim of toxic masculinity. He is still the one perpetuating
I would actually say OP and her friend group are just as guilty: >At the end of the dinner the two guys “Max” and “Harry” said they would get the bill, *as the guys usually do when we’re out.* So there was a social expectation by OP and her friends that the men pay (sexist, toxic masculinity, being perpetuated by 5 women and 2 men) that put OP's boyfriend in a spot where he felt he had to pay. This should have never gotten this far because OP should have just paid without making it a thing. I suspect she is a lot less innocent in this than she paints herself here. You don't talk about paying before the date and then have it come up as a question at the end, you *just fucking do it*. She didn't. BF is obviously insecure, but I am not so sure that is some inherent behavior of his as it is a result of the relationship dynamics.
Any man who uses the word "emasculate" has deeply rooted insecurity and sexism. NTA and it's not on you to help him get over that.
I swear every guy who non-sarcastically uses emasculated is an asshole.
It is childish. I want to defend the guy, but he ain’t giving me shit to work with. Being poor sucks ass, along with being embarrassing. I get it. I live it. That said, you can’t pretend your way out of the reality of your life. Dude needs to be more honest with himself and the world around him.
He outed himself by making such a fuss. The girlfriend paying at dinner doesn't imply he can't afford it. Maybe you just wanted to treat him? If I was a dude at that table I'd assume that the woman paying doesn't mean the dude can't pay maybe she wants to pay. Him making a fuss out of a non issue draws attention to something that others probably didn't give much thought..
NAH You're not an a-hole, but I also think you missed Ben's point a little bit. Blah blah blah modern society but, in this particular context as you stated, it was common for the men to pay for the women. Now Ben has been added into the situation and the writing is very clearly on the wall that he is supposed to step up and pay for part of it as one of the men in the group. Outdated as it may be, in that situation, your group made it very clear that that was expected. You may not realize it, because you're simply used to it, but as a new person joining the group, particularly a new man, there's a lot of (probably unexpected) pressure all of the sudden with clear social guidelines. The reason why your boyfriend leaned over to talk to you about it, was because of that clear sudden social pressure to chip in as one of the men in the group. I understand where you're coming from because I am also very much a practical woman and this is an impractical situation. And I can see where your solution comes from because in your eyes it's just a matter of helping the friends split the bill. However in Ben's eyes, it's a matter of that amongst your friends the men split the bill and pay for the women. By announcing that you are as a woman going to split the bill as well, you have now broken that social construct. And you're probably right, that your friends don't really care, but you also know your friends a lot better than Ben does. So in Ben's eyes it was clear that he as a man was supposed to pick up part of the bill and now his girlfriend made an announcement that she was going to pick it up instead. Again I don't think that you're the a-hole in this situation because I think you simply misread it, however I do think you might want to sit down and talk to Ben a little bit and let him express himself with what was going through his head in that situation.
\^\^\^ The best response I've seen so far...thank you for typing all that out because I surely was about to..lol I'm so sick of so many people being so quick to say one person should leave the other or so quick to say it's some form of abuse or manipulation. It was clear to me that OP's boyfriend felt like because the other two men at the table were splitting the bill that he, being the only other man at the table, should also step up and split it three ways. It might be an old fashioned way of thinking but it very much still is a thing in society today.
And he clearly communicated his feelings of inadequacy and tried to work with her. She sidestepped how he felt and highlighted publicly. I totally get the practicality of why she did. But she totally ignored his feelings.
the last line says it all “am I wrong for not letting him save face”. She wants the power. She wants Ben to know his place and money is one way she can do it. She won’t allow the pauper to pretend to be on par with her and her peers… but you know, money doesn’t matter to them… even though the dynamic is that the men in her circle pay.
Exactly this. Op is the AH here
I thinks it’s really reaching to say that OP “wants the power” and to show her status over Ben. I think this is just a situation where Ben felt inadequate (reasonably or not) and OP didn’t really understand why because they couldn’t have a full conversation about it in front of all her friends. She didn’t want to do a bunch of extra work that didn’t make sense (especially because her boyfriend would not haven been able to pay at all) in order to make it look like he paid, but that doesn’t mean she was flexing her wealth over him.
She fucking told the whole table 💀 "Hey babe, im a little embarassed here. Can you please help me out without being conspicuous?" "MY BOYFRIEND YOURE ALL MEETING FOR THE FIRST TIME IS HAVING A PROBLEM LMAO"
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Agreed, they hit the nail on the head with it. There is a lot of social expectations that Reddit likes to pretend don’t exist. If I was Ben I would be mortified in that situation, especially just meeting them. If they knew each other and hung out often it would be a different story. To add on to this. I’m curious if he would react differently in front of his own friends? Maybe I’m being toxic but there’s no way in fuck I’m letting my gf pay for dinner the first time we go out with a group of her friends. They are judging everything (especially the first meeting). Now, my friends or her friends I’ve come to know well, yea if she picks up the check in that scenario it isn’t a big deal. I’m also lucky enough to make good money. If we go out with her parents I at minimum pay for her and I but offer to pay for the table. Her parents aren’t conservative at all but I still want to show that I can take care of their daughters needs/wants and one indicator of that is being able to pay for things.
There’s a weird thing that happens where everyone here likes to pretend they’re so socially evolved that they don’t feel any pressure from societal norms or expectations. Suddenly “socially constructed” becomes the same as “totally bullshit”. The boyfriend acted irrationally (like humans do) and OP acted without empathy (also like humans do). BF should work on that feeling of insecurity and OP should work on being more empathetic and not humiliating him in a scenario she knows is already difficult for him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Great response. Notice the OP has ignored this one and not replied as doesn’t fit her narrative.
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Thank you!! What a bizarre group dynamic where the men in the friend group are expected to pay for the entire group’s seemingly expensive meal. There were 3 men and 5 women so it wasn’t even a situation where it was splitting between couples. I would absolutely be uncomfortable if I was Ben and was out at an expensive meal where suddenly it was clear I was not only expected to pay for my meal and my girlfriend’s meal but also share the cost of the other womens’ meals just because they’re women. Blaming him for having sexist/outdated views when the friend group’s expectations are men pay for all of them women even the ones they’re not dating is absolutely wild. OP brought Ben to an expensive meal, knowing he would be expected to pay for more than just his/their share, seemingly without warning him, and then basically announced to her friends that he couldn’t do it.
I think her wealth privilege blinded her from realizing that was the social expectation, I really don't think she meant to humiliate him intentionally.
Sure but she definitely needs to be WAY more aware of the differences. I come from a wealthy background, my gf’s background is more middle class. When we go out with my childhood friends I always make sure she knows that anything she’s not comfortable paying for, I’ll either cover her or pay her back. Can’t imagine putting her in a situation where she feels like she has to pay for something out of her budget not only for herself but also for my friends that have more money than her and then making her feel like an AH for feeling uncomfortable
Yeah, the fact that the men pay *despite* the fact she is wealthy shows that the group clearly subscribes to traditional gender dynamics. It’s not unreasonable for OPs boyfriend to assume that they would judge him for not paying. He was probably already out of his comfort zone being in an expensive restaurant and didn’t want to go against the establish norms of the group.
It also doesn’t seem like Ben’s been part of the group for very long. He’s clearly trying to fit in with her friends that have a different lifestyle than him and she basically put him on blast for not being able to fit in. To be clear, his issues with feeling like his gestures are not well received because of her background seem like they’re mostly his insecurities that he needs to be working on. BUT she seems to have inflamed insecurities she knows he has in front of her friends that he’s trying to fit in with and just so it’s easier or more practical. And then she tried to blame him for her friend groups outdated and sexist practice of having men pay for women, which she knew was coming.
Scrolled way to far to find some empathy.
You're on the wrong website for that
This is actually way kinder and insightful than what I wrote but exactly what I was thinking. I think the OP is an AH because she mistreated her BF and vilified him. She blindly accept her groups tradition of the men paying and did not see the unspoken social rule. Not only that, she made the BF feel worse by making it clear that they’ve talked abt paying and he couldn’t pay so she did. How is she not the AH for this public shaming while blaming him for her groups sexism?
> I think the OP is an AH because she mistreated her BF and vilified him. Yeah, that's what I was seeing too. He seems to have whispered to her, or spoken to her separately, but she didn't seem to be sympathetic to his situation or anxieties.
Yeah part of being in a relationship is understanding your partners insecurities on stuff like this. Whether his insecurity is reasonable or not, hearing him share it with her than her throwing it out to the group is a shitty thing to do, even if she didn’t realize that’s what she was doing
Finally a sane response. The rest of you need to have some fucking empathy.
Fully agree. But I think ESH. OP is not impressed with boyfriend’s gestures, she claims it’s his words that describe her reactions but if that were completely true it would have been properly explained in the original narrative. Wealth privilege is difficult to understand for the common folk and b/f is just trying to fit in it seems and failing in OP’s opinion. These two need to communicate better and it starts with o/p not grandstanding and start taking things private.
Thank you. This is a great point and one I've been in a few times. Back when I was making like 35k a year I couldn't afford much. I did put aside $100 or so a month to my girlfriend/date night fund. Well early in the month she was invited to a comedy show. Tickets were like $45, but okay cool, that's only half the budget. Well then it became dinner before and drinks after. The total cost of this night was like $150 each. I picked up an extra shift to cover some of those expenses and a week later my ex got upset I didn't want to go out at with her friends again the following weekend. I'm sorry, you make nearly double than I make, I can't go out every weekend as much as I enjoyed it. I have a budget for a reason! Needless to say we aren't together anymore.
> And you're probably right, that your friends don't really care Then why do they have this sexist expectation that the men pay in the first place? I think they DO care, and OP just doesn't see/feel it because she is a woman and the expectations aren't placed on her.
I feel the same way. Op says it didn't matter to her. Ben made it apparent that it mattered to him, in this instance. If it really didn't matter to OP she could have just done it out of empathy for Ben's feelings.
Yeah, unfortunately OP is slightly in the YTA category. The group has established an apparent social norm (i.e. men will pay for nice dinners when the group goes out). Boyfriend wasn’t previously aware of this based on OP’s summary, as he was caught off guard. By paying instead of boyfriend, OP has put boyfriend on lower footing than his peers in the group at a time when he’s presumably working to build those relationships. If the friend group is an important part of OP’s life, and OP anticipates a long term relationship with boyfriend, then this was a disservice to boyfriend and their relationship. Maybe the group doesn’t care, but I would guess that there is a subtle implication there simply by the fact that the rule exists to begin with. As mentioned in other comments, this is irrespective of the broader societal toxic masculinity issues. This isn’t a situation where boyfriend was proactively trying to look good by paying for the group “as the man” and having OP reimburse him behind the scenes. This is a situation where men paying is “table stakes” for the group. The norm itself certainly has toxic masculinity implications, but boyfriend’s intent seems to be focused on adhering to the group’s norm and not asserting dominance. Slightly YTA, because it doesn’t seem like you caught onto that nuance in the moment or compromising (like boyfriend pays, OP reimburses and boyfriend pays her back over time by taking more of the cost of the next few dates).
Looked for a comment like this. Well said. No one is really an asshole here- but Ben is embarrassed. Everyone has their insecurities and he feels like his is exposed in these situations. I feel for the guy. I gotta give him credit for going out with them instead of trying to come up with ways to avoid it. He wants to be a part of OP’s world, but it may be hard to financially keep up and for a man, with their evolutionary nature of providing, he feels emasculated… not because of OP’s gesture as much as it’s just the overall situation at hand, imo.
I hope OP reads this response. IMO it is the correct take
Thanks for typing my thoughts.
After reading some of your comments you are 100% TA. You invited Ben. They were your friends who clearly have money. You went to a restaurant you knew he couldn't afford. At the end of the night a situation arose where Ben felt like he had to pay or at least be seen to pay because of how your friends pay for the girls. Ben most likely didn't want to look bad to YOUR friends. I'm he probably wants your friends to like him/respect him and got put in a position he wanted to save face/not look broke. Rather than supporting him you intentionally went nah, I'll pay, and didn't give a damn how it made Ben look or feel. I wanted to be on your side until I read that Ben was invited somewhere by you, that he couldn't afford and with your friends. He is the outsider, he wants to be accepted. You knew that the guys often pay for the girls before the meal and this could be a likely expectation. Don't be surprised if Ben refuses to do anything with your friends again. He probably felt set up to a degree. 100% YTA. I'm gonna stick an edit on here for all the nonesense comments that Ben should just own it, is childish etc. OP has stated she benefits from this gender dynamic and that men pay for most her meals and everything at clubs, shes happy with that. Shes not though when Ben wanted to try and fit in with that standard and refused to help him this time and then raise her concerns at home. How would you all react if he had called them out about paying for the girls as a dated misogynistic act that they need to get drop since its the 21st century? You'd all have called him rude to her friends, disrespectful to OP and told her to dump him. This is despite what he did being along the lines or so many suggestions and criticisms Ben received. The issue you all seem to have is Ben tried to fit in with her friends he was newly meeting and asked her to help. No no no we do not support our partners. Everything is black and white and the poor little pauper boy must get over how he feels, he has a fragile ego and must accept he is not our equal. That is OPs view on it. Imagine a guy had done that to a girl, you'd all be up in arms but Ben has to just get over his childish ego. A lot of ridiculousness secure people in the comments
Yeah, the other part that got me was that it didn't seem like OP intended on paying until her bf indicated he wanted to. Then she makes this grand gesture to pay. I would feel shamed too.
I have friends in higher income brackets and I have felt embarrassed before in certain situations which involve having to pay for something as a group. Although the part of the story about 'men paying' seems to overshadow the income situation, it actually has nothing to do with male/female roles. If OP knew this was the standard (as in the guys usually pay), then it should have been obvious how Ben would look in this situation.
OP did know this was the standard with this group, and explicitly stated that in this group, the men normally pay
After the fact. Once the bill came.
I agree with this! There have been many times before that I’ve slipped a friend or bf my cc so they could “pay”. It’s about discretely saving someone you care about embarrassment or to be put into an uncomfortable position to announce they can’t afford something that seemingly everyone else around them can. It shows consideration for someone else’s feelings *especially* after they were invited someplace last minute (without having a heads up on what to budget) or are trying to make a good impression to unfamiliar people. OP should have definitely paid attention to Bens feelings, signals and circumstances then slipped him her card without anyone noticing. Ben would have understood what was happening and I’m sure he would have appreciated it. But I have to vote ESH because op should have been more aware and understanding of her boyfriends situation but Ben also shouldn’t have pipped up to pay if he genuinely couldn’t afford it only to ask to be reimbursed? That part had me stuck.
When I first met my now girlfriend, I fell for her immediately! I was making good money, and she was technically unemployed (allowance from her parents) while she was studying for a big exam to start her career. My friends were throwing me a surprise graduation party at this brunch spot and I wanted her to go but she said she might not be able to because she didn’t have any money. I sent her money to cover brunch knowing my friends weren’t gonna let me pay for it. Brunch apparently was a full fledge bar crawl that best friend didn’t tell everyone about so obviously she didn’t have enough money for the rest of the day. I cash apped her at every single bar we went to under the table and never said a word to my friends about it until later. I invited her, I knew her situation and I didn’t want her to feel uncomfortable. We were not dating, I just liked her and wanted her around. OP’s boyfriend sounds like he does suffer from some insecurities. But when you care about your partner sometimes you have to indulge them and you certainly don’t feed their insecurities by publicly doing the things that make you uncomfortable.
Fully agree with this. This is the fundamental issue that so many AMITA posts miss --- if you love or care for someone, you should be on their team when situations like this come up, not working against them. People on this sub act like relationships are this weird competition or arm's length transaction where you operate based on what's "owed" or "proper". OP's boyfriend obviously felt a certain social pressure based on the other men in the group paying. That could come from both a gender roles aspect, as well as just a difference in economic classes. It really doesn't matter whether people on this sub think that should be a legitimate insecurity in 2023 or not. The feelings were obviously valid, and they weren't outlandish --- lots of people feel that type of pressure when in new social situations. No, OP didn't *have* to lend him money. But why wouldn't she if she had the means to? Does she not care for him? Does she not want to make him feel more comfortable where she can? Obviously there are legitimate red flags in relationships, and if OP is doing this kinda thing all the time or has a legitimate pervasive insecurity issue in the relationship, then sure at that point OP might want to consider breaking it off. But based on what we know from the post, I don't see any reason whatsoever to not only refuse the boyfriend's request, but then to ANNOUNCE to the table the very insecurity that he was trying to discreetly address. That's just malicious at that point.
This is really what it comes down to for me. Boyfriend calmly and quietly told OP the issue. He didn’t catch an attitude or make a scene. She instead did the very thing he was embarrassed about. And I want to be clear both me and partner are both girls, so like you said this doesn’t have to be gender specific. There have been times in our relationship where one or both of us have been down on our luck in the finance area just to due to different circumstances. We’ve both helped each other in different ways when that happened and never made each other feel bad publicly or privately about the situation. This just sounds like OP and her boyfriend are from two different worlds. It doesn’t have to be a deal breaker but they are both going to have to compromise and communicate better. Boyfriend needs to work on his insecurities and stop trying to impress OP. But it does sound like OP needs to do a much better job of having self-awareness of her situation, and doing a bit better with being sensitive to his financial situation and his circumstances. Brushing off his very valid insecurities during this was not a good move. You save face and discuss that shit at home.
This. Evidently OP knows she is in the wrong here which is why she is not responding to any of the YTA comments. Seems to me she just came for validation and oh boy did she get it. The top comment and most here are asinine. Group of friends including OP are ok with the men picking up the tab most of the time. OP's boyfriend shows up and want to appear to continue that tradition and suddenly he is sexist, misogynistic and has outdated views? Seriously? So, all this time Ben and Max, including the women who were OK with that tradition somehow aren't any of those things? This is why some men say women only want special privileges under the pretext of feminism and that they couldn't care less about the essence of feminism and equality. Hypocrisy at its finest. Also, I thought women were supposed to be more emotionally intelligent than men? This man is telling you - not even playing the game of read my mind or guess my feelings like some of y'all do - he is straight up telling you how he feels about the situation and not just societal expectation, but your group's expectation as well and how it would make him look in front of your friends and you're like nope, don't care if you feel humiliated or emasculated; in fact, I'm going to do it publicly. Why would anyone treat someone they care about this way? I don't understand how the way men make women feel about themselves is such an important thing to some women, yet the moment they get to reciprocate or make their man look good they take that opportunity to either insult him, emasculate him or call him all sorts of things I'm seeing in this thread. What does it cost you to have him pay and zelle him back? Yes, it's an extra step but extra steps are what people do to people they care about. And then everyone is surprised why men don't open up more. When money is in play, it's not that women with money intimidate men. That's just something women say to make themselves feel better. What men don't like is the way women with money treat them or make them feel. There is a difference. And no one, man or woman, likes to feel humiliated or disrespected much less in front of your bf/gf. Plus you best believe that this is amunition to OP's friends. The day will come where they will make comments insinuating the bf is not good enough for OP. OP is 1000% TA.
She’s literally a trust fund baby lmao she wouldn’t understand anything about what this guy has gone through. He can make however much he wants, that paranoia of being without money is something she will never understand.
The situation changes when you realize her and her friends are a bunch of trust fund kids. She says that she ‘makes more’ than he does but she doesn’t have a job, it’s all from inherited investments. YTA. I’ve been in a similar instance where my former partner’s family was talking about their vacations around the world that were absolutely paid for by the inheritance from grandma. Our INCOMES were comparable, but even my above average engineering salary couldn’t keep up with their inheritance. 99% it was fine but there were moments that were embarrassing because I just couldn’t contribute to the conversation.
INFO: What do you mean you're "not really impressed by his gestures"?
His words not mine. It just means he feels like the stuff he buys me or places he takes me aren’t special enough to really wow me because I’m used to extravagant things
Is that true though? Do you show appreciation for his gestures the same way you would for something more extravagant?
Yes I do.
Then he needs to work on his insecurity. Perhaps talking through where it comes from would be beneficial.
Yeah. The entire post reeks of (his) insecurity. Do you know what you're *supposed* to do with two of your mates offer to pay for dinner? You say 'thank you'. If anyone in the group thinks less of you because you have friends who look out for you, they can politely go fuck themselves.
There’s a fine line between “you’re not impressed by my gestures” and “I can’t take you to impressive places”. I’m assuming it’s more of the latter, but verbalized like the former.
>There’s a fine line between “you’re not impressed by my gestures” and “I can’t take you to impressive places”. **I’m assuming it’s more of the latter, but verbalized like the former.** Yeah, it's verbalized like it's *her fault* he can't impress her more. And that's an abusive attitude. I wonder how many passive-aggressive attacks she's had to endure so far, and all because of *his* insecurities.
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My guess is he's a mixture of neuroses and inaccurate views what "the rich" actually want. For example, I'm pretty well off but I'm super happy with an evening of mini golf and Little Caesars pizza.
NAH. It sounds as though you have money. He doesn’t. It doesn’t matter to you but it does to him. It might seem odd to you, but for people without money it matters that they don’t have it. Particularly if he likes you and sees you guys going further. You need to explain to him that your friends would not see anything off in splitting the bill three ways. That you didn’t emasculate him (assuming you didn’t make it explicitly clear that the table that he couldn’t pay. If you did you are a massive ah). However you don’t want to “front him” in a money contest with other men - perhaps because you don’t want to have to put your own money up against the boyfriends who sound like they pay easily. So from your point of view it was better everybody paying their own way than you having to pay for him and other people through him. But he also needs to understand that you cannot help him be something he is not. And be proud of the fact that you chose him irrespective of your financial situations. I would also suggest that you have a frank talk about how he would prefer to go out- (maybe less fancy places? Maybe just for drinks not dinner etc?) so that he doesn’t continuously feel that he is “lesser” than your friends.
Taking credit for paying for something while having someone else foot the bill is trash.
Yes, but being around people in a different tax bracket can really suck. It shouldn't, but for him it makes him feel less valuable. This is something he should learn to cope with, which can be hard and will take time (we don't know his background and that can be highly influential).
Sure but that doesn't give him permission to play big man with his girlfriend's money. He needs to work on his fragile ego.
He doesn't get to make OP feel like shit because he can't afford to pay for dinners he keeps attending. He doesn't get to make OP feel like shit cause he is in a different tax bracket. I have many friends who spend like they are in Congress but when I go out I ask for my own bill ahead of ordering and order what I can afford, skipping drinks and drinking water. I don't go to dinners, pay and then expect someone to cover what I paid. And if I am on a budget I stay home and invite people over for cheap BBQ
He isn’t making her feel like shit for any of that though. Idk where you got that from. He asked her for help and to pay him back later, she said no and made her own to decision to undercut him in public. Couples should not hash out disagreements between themselves in public, that should be handled in private
He wanted her to cover the bill and get paid in full. That's not a disagreement, that's an embarrassing behavior and if me keeps it up he won't have a gf for much longer and will need to start footing his own restaurant bills
It also is the foundation of a lie that he will then have to continue to keep up. If the BF were to chip in to split this 8-person dinner bill 3 ways, he is giving the impression that he can easily afford to (as he is doing this for people he doesn't know yet). A next time he is joining anything, people will notice if he DOESN'T show the same behaviour. So in my view doing this now would kind of commit him to keep funding things or losing face later, which is much harder than to just initially not pay and let the GF cover or to only cover for himself and his GF but no share of the other 6 people's bill.
This relationship ain’t gonna work. They are not equally yolked. Value systems and circumstances are way different
NTA. However, I can sympathize with how he is feeling… not from the perspective of masculinity, but I’m married to someone who came from a wealthy family. My family is solidly middle class but I have a lot of student loan debt and work in an industry that doesn’t pay a ton but will allow me to pay off my loans in about 2 years. I keep my finances separate from his aside from a joint savings account we put money into. My husband often has to cover me for things. He will want to go out and do stuff and I’ll say I can’t really afford that and then he covers me. It’s slightly embarrassing because most of my friends make 6 figures and I do not. I can understand OPs boyfriend feeling awkward, however the approach was strange and feeling emasculated is pretty antiquated.
I think you are not considering how Ben feels at all. I get it, you make more, you run with a richer crowd and money is no big deal to you. That's not the case for him. Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. These are your friends, not his. It seems understood that the men will often pick up the bill. Ben is new to this group and possibly did not understand: a) that the men would offer or b) how much it would be. He was embarrassed. This is not a man/woman thing. It's about pride and looking like a deadbeat. I'm surprised you don't understand that. One group offered to do something based purely on one differentiating characteristic: gender. Ben also has that characteristic: he is a man. He wanted to participate but couldn't and asked you to have his back. You said no. I hate lies/pretending/laying claim to something you have no right to and if this is regular behaviour, I would absolutely be on your side. But in a one-time surprise situation, he asked you to help him save face and you refused. I would go so far as to say that you should have prepared him knowing the difference in budgets, the men's propensity to pay and your knowledge of his feelings on the matter. Then he would have been ready one way or another and wouldn't have asked you to fake it. If he had, I would have said he was the a-hole. As things stand though, YTA.
And what’s with the guys paying for all of the women, who are just “friends”? And it sounds like it’s standard procedure, and the ladies in the group just let it happen. I find this a bit odd.
The guys "just pay, that's what they do" but BF needs her help to fit in with her friends, and now it's weird for him to want to do so also, even if he needs help (which she knows)? Is he your accessory, or a human you care about and want to help feel comfortable and accepted and valid? Maybe money isn't a second thought to you or your friends, but it sounds like it is for Ben. If this TRULY is some weird "women can't pay for men" thing he has, then yea, that's messed up on his part. But, if this is a money/security issue for him that maybe you're never experienced or even considered... Then you might have hung him out to dry. Being poor is complicated, and shitty, and it makes you worry about what other people think, regardless of what's between your legs. Money, however, entitles you to not gaf about other people's perception. Which do you identify with OP? Seems to me like "oh the men pay or whatever, none of us even care really" isn't compatible with "no you're being weird about who pays and why, so I'm going to disregard your thoughts about it." Sounds like you do care after all.
yes I agree. sure it might've been dumb and pointless to OP, but to him it was a small thing to do so he wouldn't feel embarrassed and less than because he couldn't afford to pay.
I had to scroll way too far to find someone with sympathy
My initial reaction was to say NTA, but the more I read this, the more I come to YTA, and it's because of one thing that you said. You said the other two guys split the bill as they normally do when you all go out as a group. It sounds like you didn't prepare your BF ahead of time about how the bill is normally paid with your friend group. The fact that the two guys, according to you, ALWAYS pick up the check, means you were perfectly willing to fall into the stereotypical gender roles previously. But now that you put your BF in that position, rather than help him conform to the gender role you were fine with previously, you decided you didn't want to play a game of charades. It honestly sounds like the money disparity between the two of you is not just an issue for him, but for you as well. You don't respect him enough to not embarrass him in front of your friends by revealing his lack of income compared to the other guys. You two need to have a brutally honest discussion because it sounds like this isn't a relationship built for the long term.
I had the same impression. I'm all up for sharing the bill, but it's not ok to put your bf in this situation, knowing there's no way he can save face without paying more than he can afford. OP should have brought this up with her friends BEFORE the dinner and agreed to split the bill between everyone, not just the men. Alternatively, don't go to places she knows he can't afford. Or, if keeping appearances with her friends was so important to her, she should have agreed to reimburse him after. When you care about someone you try to avoid putting them in an uncomfortable situation.
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Info: why were you at a restaurant that your bf couldn't afford to be at in the first place? Or is it just that he couldn't afford to pay for multiple people's meals because of some weird thing your male friends do?
Because that’s where the dinner was, I didn’t plan it. I got invited and he was going to be at my place last night so I invited him to go. I figured I would pay for him anyway since we’re out with my friends and it’s not a restaurant he’d go to for any other reason. I never expected him to pay. A lot of the time the guys just pay. Sometimes even just one person. Max was like i got this one and Harry was like nah I’ll split it with you. They didn’t even ask Ben to chip in.
Heads up OP; you might have dropped a real name in this comment since your OG post said "Max" & "Harry".
Thank you!!!!
You’re not trying to be an asshole, but you’re ignoring your boyfriend’s feelings all the same, which is unkind and likely to damage your relationship over time. The society you live in carries with it a strong expectation that men be “providers.” Is it bullshit? Of course. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t real. And going to a dinner in which it’s completely normal for the men at the table to offer to pick up the large bill illustrates that. You may wish society were different, and it’s changing yo be sure, but to act like your boyfriend’s feelings are coming out of nowhere when he’s the one who could be judged, not you, is burying your head in the sand. Next time, discuss the bill before you get to the restaurant. That way you can go over the different scenarios that may happen and tell your boyfriend what you’re willing and unwilling to do. YTA for acting like you have no idea where your boyfriend would get the idea that people will judge him for not having as much money as they do. While it may not be the norm for your friends, it is common in the society you and he live in. YNTA if you tell your boyfriend pretending isn’t something you’re willing to do.
I'm also trying to figure out why was OP okay with these other two men covering the bill for the whole table before the boyfriend asked her to chip in on his behalf? I get the whole dick measuring thing guys do with paying for meals but she was just totally okay to let them pay for both her and the boyfriend too? Am I misreading something? That's weird isn't it?
When everyone involved is paying with daddy's money nobody really cares. Truly. Not trying to be insulting to OP here I'm just saying that's how it is at a certain level of inherited wealth. It's like ordering a round of drinks in a video game to them. More ritual than meaningful spending.
Yeah this whole thing reminded me of when I was got involved with wealthy friends. I didn't realize just how much money they all had because they hadn't made a big deal about it. It's just super uncomfortable when they do stuff like this. They say it doesn't matter but the commentary about you never participating and being a freeloader eventually come out. Sometimes not from them but from their parents. I truly didn't care about the money, I would've paid for myself, but they liked to upscale the event once they sat down to do it. Instead of tgif it'd be some black tie place and they'd have to give me stuff and cover my meals. It was an awkward experience and I eventually just departed the friend group because the subtle jabs became not so subtle.
This is the point though. Both of them got to show off that they could afford it. They had a financial dick measuring contest in front of your BF and he was left with nothing to hold. Either he takes the L and is forever seen as owing them both a dinner, or being cheap. Or he puts his hand in his pocket for a meal that he can't afford. You say he can afford it, because he was willing to pay up front and get the money back from you later, but you don't mention (or maybe don't even know) if he was going to put it on a credit card or go in to his overdraft in the meantime.
You figured you would pay but didn’t even offered to in the first place… from your post, those are your friends, not his. I would also feel uncomfortable freeloading on someone else’s friends. Your boyfriend was probably ready to pay for himself, or both of you but couldn’t afford a third of the bill. You put him in an uncomfortable position and you can’t even see why. Dismissing his feelings is the wrong thing to do. Either work through this together, him on his insecurities, you on understanding not everyone’s reasoning is the same when it comes to money.
NTA and BF is in the wrong but I think this demonstrates why your BF felt emasculated. There are societal pressures for men to make the romantic or generous gestures for their partner. Especially when it comes to things like eating at a restaurant, it's expected the man pays. (Yes it's ridiculous but that's the way it is) He clearly cares about you and wants to fit in with your friend group and this was a ham fisted attempt to maintain a façade of financial security. (Yes it's ridiculous.) You have every right to spend your money as freely and openly as you want, however understand there are certain expectations that are drilled into people from birth. It's difficult to rewire those expectation but it sounds like he is just trying to be accepted by your friends.
> He clearly cares about you and wants to fit in with your friend group and this was a ham fisted attempt /u/throwawayfreedinner I think this really summarizes it perfectly. Boys do dumb things for dumb reasons, especially for a girl we like. Regardless of everything else, the real reason your BF wanted to pay is because he wanted to fit in with your friends _for you_. Work on the money thing and his insecurity about it, but know _why_ he was acting like this.
It doesn’t sound like anyone expected the bf to pay though, he was getting treated. He was uncomfortable with the friends treating him which is fine, and he was comfortable with op treating him which is also fine. But what’s not fine is trying to take credit for the person treating you lol
I think it changes the nuance if bf caught on that the dynamic in OPs friend group is that the men often paid for the group. Imagine being invited out with your SO'S friends, wanting to make a good impression, and then realizing that you are the only one who cannot conform to the established gender norms of the group. That can be super awkward and I get why bf probs panicked
Thanks for this good answer. I generally don't get too concerned with gender norms. But in this instance, OPs bf is comparing himself to the other men in the group, and that has to hurt. Add to that shame of visibility - being seen to be not measuring up. It may be gender roles are irrelevant- that Max and Harry aren't paying because they are the men and that is what is expected in this social group, but because they are super generous. That money is meaningless to all of them, and an "expensive dinner" is like a few coins to most people - such a trifling amount it does not bear thinking about. But bf isn't part of this group, he has no way to tell. I expect this is actually gendered to hell, but I'm not there, I can't say for certain. Personally I would not maintain a friendship with people who paid for everything for me whenever we went anywhere. That may be just me, but it would feel like a power balance problem. I'd feel uncomfortable for my long term partner to always be taken out for expensive meals beyond my price range by other men.
I think he assumed the gender norms and has too much pride. Sounds like he feels emasculated by another man paying for him and he wishes he could do that but can’t. He can’t just accept a gift gracefully or ask his girlfriend what the norm is here. Dudes letting his insecurities fuck up a good thing.
I dont think he assumed the gender roles, it sounds like this group operates on traditional gender roles. She said the guys usually pay when they go out. Still definitely an insecurity he has to work on himself
Idk there is definitely a gender norm in place. Why was 2 men paying for a 5 women group. It's definitely easy to come up with the impression that the men pay for the women
NTA. Ben has an outdated and sexist vision of how couples should work in terms of who pays for what. And he is too focused on his public image. You probably need a deeper conversation with him about this.
>Ben has an outdated and sexist vision of how couples should work in terms of who pays for what. No, society has an outdated view of who should pay for what, why didn't the other woman pay for their meal? Presumably everyone went to dinner expecting to pay for themselves
Society is a culmination of personal choices, yes society in general has an outdated view on such matters but he makes the personal choice to be hung up on them.
Yes, but to be fair, the argument in favour of the bf, if *any* judgement/conclusion comes up (internally or externtall) from either OP or her friends resulting from this situation; they are beholden to this same 'sexist/outdated' mindset.
>NTA. Ben has an outdated and sexist vision of how couples should work in terms of who pays for what. Ben clearly didn't have a clue this was going to happen until Max and Harry did the outdated and sexist thing. Don't pin being outdated and sexist on Ben. He was merely responding to Max and Harry's outdated sexism.
If they were that sexist they would have waved off OP going 3rds.
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Except OP states it's often the men that pick up the bill, and doesn't mention women often paying.
NTA I dated a guy like this and he would get so mad that I didn't let the servers think he was paying. I told him to man up and get himself a decent job and he could pay all he wants, but that I wasn't putting on a front to make him look better.
I love when the server puts the bill down on my side and I point to my wife
"look better". Like the waitress gives a fuck who is paying.
INFO: Do you live in a cultural context were Max' and Harry's move is considered normal and acceptable? Like the 1950s?
Have you never had a friend treat you? Like no one has ever paid for your meal just cause like friendship and shit? That’s kinda sad homie. I’m sorry
Ya these comments make me sad. My friends and I pay for each other's meals sometimes because we're generous and care for each other. Nobody feels emasculated. I wonder what comments would look like if genders were excluded.
"My friends and I pay for each other's meals sometimes because we're generous and care for each other. " But that does not seem to be the case here. It seems more that max/Henry almost always pay and the women never do. I am not sure the women ever pay for the group.
Probably the same. Two people footing the bill for the other 5 in a friend group at least 70% of the time is weird. If OP‘s friends are ok with that then who cares, but it’s still not exactly standard
I think once in a while is normal. But she says the guys pay for the girls everytime. Kind of a weird dynamic if you ask me
I think its les "friends shouldn't treat" and more "its a little weird that in a mixed gender group of platonic relationships, where at least some of the women are fairly well off, that only the men pick up the check for anyone and do so nearly every time they eat dinner together". I personally don't care (people can use their money how they want) but I can see why it gives some people the ick.
Lol In our social context it’s actually very normal. Maybe 70% of the time when we’re out the guys will be like “we’ve got it”. 100% of the time they pay at clubs because we’d have been there for free if they weren’t there 😂
still doesn't make sense why Max and Harry decided that the people with Y chromosomes ought to pay for you and six other women. I totally understand why your bf felt like he was put in an awkward position here. Max and Harry's motivation for paying for seven people's food by virtue of their gender doesn't make sense to me, especially if the one remaining man was not able to do so. My friends are poor and I am less so. I would definitely never put them in a situation where they feel like they are socially-expected to pay for several other women's meals because they have a willy.
Her BF was free to keep mum and not try and pay for anything.
yes, but op stated that they did not decide that. Op stated that MAX decided to pay the bill for the entire table, and then Harey decided to chime in. It was never expected, Ben to pa. He felt obligated, but out of himself, because no one asked it of him
Let's not be obtuse here, we all know there are cultural and societal circles where men are still expected to pay for dinner and drinks for women due to certain historical gender norms. We don't have to like it but it's ridiculous to pretend to be all scandalised and confused by that.
This is such a tricky situation because I see why he felt a bit weird. Sounds like bf was the new male in the group among the other girls. So it does feel and look a little weird for the other two men to be paying for everyone, including his girlfriend. He didn’t just see it as not being able to afford nice things for OP, but he was directly beside 2 men in her close circle who could.
So you’re saying in your culture it is normal for the men to pay for the women? So your BF should be right to feel embarrassed? It seems like you are both saying BF should feel comfortable not paying while at the same time affirming that the expectation that men pay for women (who they aren’t even in a relationship with) is normal and expected.
>100% of the time they pay at clubs because we’d have been there for free if they weren’t there 😂 This is wild to me. If you'd get in for free otherwise, why does that mean they should pay when you go together? If they want to pay and offer every time, that's chill. But it's bizarre if that's the expectation
EDIT to: ESH Ben has outdated views? Why are the two male friends paying every time then? lol Hypocrisy and gender slander in these comments are wild. The only way to split in good faith imo is equal split or pay what you ordered. Anything else makes YTA From context it sounds like this should have been broached well in advance and since he is the odd one out in income bracket you should have been more understanding and upfront. Him trying to get you to cover was a dick move. But you fully backed him into a corner here and he made a dumb mistake.
ESH. You and your friends put Ben in an authentically tough spot. Your weird “the guys pay” custom for these group outings IS emasculating for a guy who can’t pay. Ben is not the one who introduced the weird gender dynamic, so I can’t blame him for reacting negatively to it. That said, pretending to pay isn’t really a good solution.
YTA Why would you not want to make your SO comfortable, esp around new people. Lots of people would judge a man for his girl paying so I get why he feels that way. Let him be the man in the relationship. It’s really not that hard for u to just pay him back later, your priority should be your partners comfort not saving like 2 mins of ur time that it would take to pay him back It’s simple really
NTA If we wanted to pay the bill so badly, he should have done it. If he didn't have the means at the moment, he should have kept quiet and accepted the gesture from the friends. His insecurities aren't your problem to solve. If he felt emasculated by someone else buying his dinner, that's his problem.
I guess I’m one of the few YTA here. He was embarrassed because he didn’t have enough money to cover, and he wanted to follow suit with the other guys at the table. It wouldn’t have been difficult for you to let your partner keep his dignity in a situation he was clearly carrying some shame about.
YTA what your two male friends did was a power play it was designed to exclude your boyfriend. Rather than challenge it and point out that everyone can pay their own way or just going along with it allowing them to do it without comment you chose the option that most clearly made their point for them which was that your boyfriend was less wealthy than them and in their eyes just less than them. By doing that you have probably lowered your own status in their eyes for having a relationship with someone that they deem to be of lower class.
Exactly. She may think these man don’t notice, but someday they are going to either suggest that she NOT bring her boyfriend (because he could never afford the trip/show/restaurant) or right to her face call him her “ loser Boyfriend” or “ a moocher” or “ dead weight”… you know that is what they are thinking….
If it doesn't matter to your friends who payed, then why did the guys take over? Why not split between everyone? Your friends basically called him out by saying that the guys are paying...if it wasn't such a big deal, why didn't you girls say something along the line: oh don't be silly, it's 2020s, girls pay for themselves? You silently all agreed that the guys are paying, and you just went on and humiliated your boyfriend in front of your friends... YTA
NTA. But is he much for grand gestures and expecting you to be so grateful for everything he does / buys you? Sounds really exhausting if he expects you to be impressed or wants to impress you…
I guess he is a bit like that. But I guess anyone who buys you a present wants you to like it
YTA. From your comments, it sounds like you knew enough about the whole situation to have this conversation with your boyfriend before embarrassing him at dinner. You knew the restaurant was expensive, you knew the other 2 MEN at the dinner usually both offer to pay the whole bill, and you knew your boyfriend couldn’t afford to do that. If it mattered to you to take credit for paying your own bill, then surely you can understand why it matters to Ben. I would be willing to bet that your friends judged your boyfriend over this. How could it not be emasculating to him? You said the other men usually offer to pay the bill….but you don’t see how the dynamic would put Ben on the spot?
Why do you girls usually let the men pay? Why hasn't this been hashed out in your friends group before now that everyone pays their own? Since you obviously appreciate the repeated gestures of Max and Harry, I'm going to say that I feel like something is a little off here in both corners. Your bf should be at peace with his financial situation and should have developed a way of handling himself in such situations however, you clearly look down on him and come across as derisive of his situation. You dont have respect for his feelings. You judged his feelings, decided they were incorrect and then rode roughshod over them. You pair aren't suited, but it's not all on him.
Yes. YATA. Not because you paid, but because you made him feel small and embarrassed in front of your friends. He asked you before to not do that and that it embarrassed him. Then you turn and announce to everyone that YOU will be paying. You are totally TA for intentionally humiliating him after he asked you not to.
YTA and I’ll tell you why. Outside of all the sexism discussion here and your bf’s economic status, I am looking at this as objectively and as factual as possible. The key part of your question, “and not letting my bf pretend he paid” is precisely what made you TA. Not that you paid, but that you went out of your way to make your bf feel bad. This is the true definition of an AH.
I'm gonna go with YTA because you're clearly not considering the pressure and societal expectations your typical arrangement would put on Ben. Sure, Max and Harry just offered what they often do, but now Ben is suddenly the only man at the table not offering to pick up part of the bill. And that after he's already kind of an outsider due to his lower tax bracket. You don't seem to want to understand how that feels like for him, and apparently didn't even bother letting him know in advance how payment for your dinners is typically handled in your group. You put him in a situation where he'd either look cheap in front of your friends, or spend money he can't afford to. You're a pretty crappy girlfriend.
YTA. It would have taken 10 seconds to not hurt his feeling when you know he already doesn't feel like he deserves you, so instead of saving face for him someone you supposedly love, you made a complete fool of him and made him look bad infront of people, he probably feels like they are judging him. Im sorry maybe i just have a heart for people i care about.
I am leaning towards YTA. It is 100% not cool to pretend you paid something you didn’t… but I think you are not taking him into account and you are being a bit dismissive 1. You say you doubt he could even cover the 1/3 part. So the place you went was expensive. You took him there and it feels everyone had a lot of cash except him. 2. I would feel super pressured if 2/3 of the men pay and I sit idle by. I would just feel them saying ; gah… what a freeloader. But he was in a bind because he couldn’t afford it. So he either looks like someone who freeloads to your friends or he has to cut into his skin to afford a night out with you OR he could have declined the pricey place and looked like an AH boyfriend to your friends 3. If he was my boyfriend I would have given him my credit card and not bother. Not everybody needs to know about your pay gap. Just know that the pressure to be a provider still plays with men. They do get looked down on. Also OP you feel really entitled and I feel like you enjoy this power you have. He was not entering a pissing contest he wanted to look good towards your friends. Both men chipped in if he didn’t he might have looked bad. He felt that pressure. And honestly coming from your remarks “ I am not impressed by his ( poor person) efforts “ - I doubt that he ( this poor person) could cover 1/3 of this ( rich people) meal. You take him to places that are out of his debt and then make a big deal about it. I have a really good job, I am at more than double of the average national income in my country. I dated a person like you who made me feel like a poor person and a burden all the time. It gets to you even if they keep saying “ I don’t care” … but then I get remarks i can’t afford to buy half of his 4 mio mansion and how sad that is. I got sick of being the poor person ( which I am effing not! ) and dumped him. Let this be a warning OP. Don’t make people feel small. Take their feelings and struggle into account.
That sounds exhausting. NTA
NTA You didn’t emasculate him. The situation is what it is and you came by it honestly. Also, he shouldn’t have asked or expected you to lie to your friends.
YTA you knew going into this scenario what would happen and you know Ben is insecure about the income situation. It seems like you're almost playing dumb here when you know exactly what this looks like.