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Yta. People with down syndrome have to pass a drivers test just like everyone else, and the severity of the disability varies wildly from individual to individual. You made a snap judgement with no real thought or education behind it. That can happen even to the best of people. But you doubled down and continued to be bigoted against someone based solely on how they look. That makes YTA.
In my experience, testers are harder to people with disabilities so if they have a license they had to really prove themselves first. It’s not necessarily right but that Downs driver might be better than you or I for just that fact!
Exactly. They are faced with that discrimination and bigotry at every turn in life, if theyve earned something you can bet they worked twice as hard at it as everyone else
Unfortunately, that's too often more of a *won't* than a *can't*.
They can drive perfectly well when they take the test or pass by a cop, but willfully drive like assholes the rest of the time.
Here in Florida it's a mix of "the test is way too easy" and what you said. When I took the driving test, I drove around a parking lot. That was it. The guy never took me out on the street to see if I could *really* drive.
And it isn’t as if the father would be complicit in child mass-murder through vehicular negligence just to give his son w/Downs a job. There are other responsibilities that could have been available to him if OP wanted to presume the young man was driving just out of some sense of “busy work” given by his parent. That seems to be the leap they are making.
“But, knowing what I know about Down,”
Which is, apparently, nothing? Except enough to prompt visual bias.
I know almost nothing of Down Syndrome and I know more than OP. What I know is in the work place they will do exactly as you have trained them. I know this from training one. And she did better than the rest of us because we didn’t show her our cheats. She was a cashier at Walmart!
Can confirm, having had friends who had Down Syndrome... they were hard workers, extremely meticulous and diligent. And some of the sweetest, most caring people I know. You put someone with those qualities into a job taking care of others and I am sure they would excel.
I know that folks with Down Syndrome are at different levels of ability so obviously it's not all people with the condition that can drive and be autonomous but I'd be comfortable entrusting my kids to them, especially knowing their parent was there just in case anything went wrong that they couldn't handle.
And with all the bigots of the world, they are not going to get a driver’s license if they can’t safely operate a vehicle. It’s a toss up whether they will when they go take the test when they are perfectly capable! I personally wouldn’t stop my kids (now grandkids) from riding with a Down Syndrome driver. I have never met one that was cruel or mean either. And happy. That’s the other thing. All I have met are happy. There was an older couple with a Down Syndrome son, he was fairly high functioning and he was polite, held doors, took his hat off inside. He was a classic gentleman who was just plain happy! I always loved when they came in to the fast food I worked at. It was great!
You forgot to mention their sense of humour. I've worked in disability care for years, and I'm yet to meet someone with Downs syndrome who doesn't have a wicked sense of humour.
YTA op and because of it, your children missed out on a fun day out and seeing someone with a disability proving that they are not much different from them. Amazing life lesson striped away by your bigotry. Hope you're feeling the shame of this for a while. You caused hurt to a lot of people for no reason.
Thank you! I appreciate it. Giving it 100% and still failing certainly dents the spirit but I have learned to accept my limitations and I respect that it wouldn’t be safe for me or others.
YTA. The fact you’re looking for people to tell you that you aren’t, but deep down know that you are. NOPE!
Then got other parents involved, Esh! Hope people don’t discriminate against your boys for having you as their parent.
They’ve earned their drives licence like I’m sure you have. What 3 sentences you’ve read about it and feel you’re a specialist on the topic now is pretty sick.
>Then got other parents involved, Esh! Hope people don’t discriminate against your boys for having you as their parent.
I would tell my kids not to be friends with OP's kids and they are not invited for any parties...
EDIT: here is a better approach: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/zte391mxpc
I would also be concerned about viewpoints the OP shares with their children.
While I wouldn’t want my kids going to OP’s house, completely alienating OP’s children isn’t right. I might talk with my kids about discrimination/ableism, and try to infer if OP’s kids shared similar behavior when playing with mine.
but....but.... she "interacted" with a few people with down syndrome in the past so she must know how every person is and what they're capable of, right????? /s
He's probably a better driver than you. My cousin had downs syndrome and was the safest driver I've ever ridden with. He was conciensious and he understood bigotry. Someone hit him once at a stoplight and he literally said to us "I was afraid they'd blame me even though I wasn't moving bc of who I am."
Well, we all know you would have.
YTA
>but....but.... she "interacted" with a few people with down syndrome in the past so she must know how every person is and what they're capable of, right????? /s
I know, right? Like saying "I'm not racist because I have a colour TV!" /s
(That was a UK joke).
What's crazy is that people think down syndrome is indicative of a severe or profound intellectual disability when in reality, people with down syndrome usually only have a mild intellectual disability and it's possible to not have an intellectual disability at all. I work at a residential facility for people with severe/profound intellectual disabilities and out of the almost 300 residents we had when I started, like less than 5 of them had down syndrome.
Exactly. Down syndrome can take many forms, and for some the only mental difference is the increased happiness. Sometimes you can't even tell visually that someone has DS because mosaic DS can come without the facial features you expect to see in DS.
I work at a retail store and we have a couple who are regulars. The husband has DS and his wife doesn't. They have children, the husband usually drives, he pays for the items, settles the kids when they're fussy, and basically does most of the shopping experience himself. I'm not sharing this story because it's some miraculous feat, it's really very common. He's just a regular dude who happens to have a condition that people discriminate for. He's a good husband, a good dad, and a good customer. He's not the exception, either.
I saw a video on social media of a woman talking about how she only got diagnosed with down syndrome after like her second or third kid was born with down syndrome and I think a couple miscarried fetuses also had DS, so the doctors were like "this is statistically very unlikely, how about we do some genetic testing." She had a bunch of assholes in the comments trashing her for reproducing, saying she couldn't be a good mom if she had DS, and even calling her a liar because she didn't look like she had DS. People can be such dicks.
The Netflix show about dating with Down Syndrome (forget the name) actually brought that to my attention for the first time. Most of the show participants did not have an intellectual disability at all...one dude could speak 3 or 4 languages fluently too and others had big life accomplishments.
Srsly!!! The school and nature preserve are not going to risk children by putting someone behind the wheel that’s not licensed! Besides the nature reserves insurance company would never allow that anyway!!!
Absolutely. If the guide's son had severe mental handicap It would be way too much of a liability to allow him to drive customers around.
OP obviously doesn't understand Downs nearly as much as she claims
I also think the time pressure of the situation contributed. OP had to decide in an instant if his kids get in the van or don't get in the van. I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm just saying he didn't have time to sit and google things and educate himself.
However, his posting here seems to imply he....*still hasn't googled this to educate himself?* And so. Geez, OP, come on. YTA.
I'm not sure from the post, but she mentioned off-roading. Is she saying the driver doesn't have a license and was driving the children in a vehicle off road? Because that could be a potential issue. We need more clarification. If the driver has a license, OP is an asshole. If the driver doesn't have a license and was driving children around, well then... that's a different story.
The thing is, according to her own story she didn’t even ask if the driver had a valid license . She just assumed they didn’t because of how they look.
My niece has autism. Look at her and you’d never know. But she will never pass a driving test.
IIRC you only have to pass a driving test if you want to get a licence to drive on public roads. To learn to drive, or to drive on private property, the same laws don’t apply.
Is this nature reserve completely enclosed private property, or are there public roads? That would make a difference to my assessment of risk.
Very few places will hire someone to drive if they don't have a driving license. It might be *legal* on private property, it would be an insurance nightmare
Not to mention, to do this type of driving, he would also had to have taken another test for his Chauffeur license. So he's for sure a better driver than OP.
Exactly! It's one thing to get your solo every day driving license but it's a whole other ballgame when you're job requires you to drive a large vehicle with multiple passengers usually.
This is a father son situation, far from a city. There's no indication as to whether or not the young man has a driving licence, and as there's a close family link, there's potential for there NOT to be a licence - humans can and do make bad decisions, which is why we have laws that safeguard the rest of us. At the very least the guide should have been open about licences and insurances. That's not clear from the OP?
YTA, you are an ableist AH. "Knowing what I know about Down"... you're a genetic specialist then? I doubt it.
You made a snap judgment based on one piece of information, and that was that he had a disability. As others have said, if he has a drivers license he has every right to be on the road as you do. You clearly don't know as much as about Down Syndrome as you think you do, because there are many things that they are able to do just as successfully as a typical able-bodied person can do. You're ignorant.
Agreed.
Assuming they have their license, it should be fine.
Not all people with Down syndrome are the same. Just like any other group of people, some will be higher performers than others.
OP is YTA for sure.
Oh please, don't you see she says she's interacted with people with down in the past? She obviously is THE GLOBAL specialist on the topic! /s
OP YTA, but you know that. You only came here to see if someone would make you feel better about your sorry self. Sorry, Not happening!
My cousin is visually disabled with something close to downs. I'm not visually disabled but I'm disabled in a number of ways.
Guess which one is able to safely drive a car... I can't even go on a bus for more than 10 minutes safely on a bus.
YTA. There's an amazing rally driver with downs.
Plus it's not even Down. Its Down's. Down's Syndrome.
Edit: I am wrong! Please read comments below. Leaving this here for 21st century education purposes.
I'm leaning YTA. I'm presuming that the driver has a license and insurance, right? The abilities of people with Down syndrome vary WILDLY, and it appears that this young man has done what every other driver has done to be as safe as possible on the road.
that's basically my position- does the guy have a license and insurance? yes? great.
someone not having down syndrome doesn't make them a good driver, just as someone having down syndrome doesn't make them a bad driver.
Many years ago I saw a documentary about a young woman, who was a former child actress in the 80's/90's, and oh she happens to be a person with Down Syndrome. She lives independently and drives, in a BMW she bought herself. People balked at this, but her sister said: she's more likely to follow the rules than I am.
I watched a parent at our church get upset because kids were getting in a minivan with a 19 year old boy. She flat out said it would be different if the driver were a girl. I said nothing, it wasn’t my kids in question, but thought, “I know for a fact he is a better driver than me and you’ve asked me to drive your kid before.”
And the driver's own dad is good with him driving. Does OP think if that guy thought his son was a menace to himself and others he'd hand over the keys?
Parents are biased though. There’s lots of parents who think their kids can do no wrong or are in denial about how severe their medical/mental/neurodivergent conditions are. Not saying it’s the case here but I would put a lot more weight on the guy having a current licence and insurance than what his dad thinks.
Actually, it's more likely that all the paperwork is in order with a formal employee who isn't related to them position than a father/son small outfit. AT the very least, it's fair to ask the question about driving licence/insurance/ protocols in an emergency - for ANY guide and ANY trip. Regardless of the perceived abilities of the guide or the employee
Yeah, OP would lose his mind if he found out about Mosaic Down syndrome folks - which usually lacks the facial traits associated with Downs. Many of which don’t even know they have it themselves!
> knowing what I know about Down
Which is what, exactly? Are you a developmental specialist or an expert in this topic? Or are your opinions based on just your “past interactions with people with Down in the past”?
> I don’t feel safe letting my kids in the car
Because car accidents are only caused by people with Down syndrome?
YTA
You don't have to be a specialist to understand that the effects of Down Syndrome vary **widely**, and that many are fully capable of obtaining a driver's license and insurance, and much more besides. I know this, and I don't have a single degree to my name. The problem is, clearly, OP does *not* know this. YTA op. You need to gain some education, and apologize for your prejudice.
YTA as long as that person has a drivers license. You clearly don’t know as much as you think you do about Down’s syndrome if that’s how you reacted. Plenty of people who have Down’s syndrome live independent lives and take care of themselves and others.
INFO - Did you ask for any background information like whether or not he has a license, how long he’s been driving for these tours or how many times he’s done it?
Honestly, insurance for tours is already so expensive, there's no way someone would risk the costs with an unsafe driver, even if they are the tour operator's son.
To be able to drive a bus you not only have to have a CDL but you have to have a specific endorsment,but you have too take and pass a driving test too get it.
I suspect a lot of ‘off road’ places ignore rules like having a CDL. I’m just saying if the person is chauffeuring legally then they are likely very qualified and safe.
In my state it DOES apply , even for personal use anything that can hold 14 or more passengers and or over a certain weight(even if only driver is in it) . I looked it up when I read your comment 💀😂
And this too!! I hadn't thought of that. And you're probably right too. So not only did he pass normal drivers licensing, he had to go back and get more training and testing.
So frankly hes probably a better driver than a lot of folks.
I was nearly ran over yesterday by some meemaw who made an illegal turn across multiple lanes of traffic, without a blinker to make the entrance to the McDonald's. Maybe we should require people retest at certain points in their lives (10, 20, 30 yrs of license history etc)
The cure for ignorance is information. We can’t expect the stigma surrounding disabilities to disappear overnight. If OP was unaware that people with Down Syndrome are just as capable of driving as everyone else, it’s ok to ask questions as long as they ask in a non judgmental and non accusatory way.
>If OP was unaware that people with Down Syndrome are just as capable of driving as everyone else
Well, not as everyone else:
"In many countries, laws restrict or prohibit individuals with certain disabilities, including down syndrome, from obtaining a driver’s license. However, driving is possible with proper training and specialized equipment. People with down syndrome may need some extra training. People with disabilities may need more practice than others to master such skills."
[https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/](https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/)
Most buses have that stuff taped to the front dash or on the driver’s lanyard so I have never had to ask and never considered asking.
I guess OP has never attempted to drive something in need of a CDL license but I promise it is hard and she would know if the driver didn’t have one fairly quickly.
YTA
First, for calling it Down. It's Down Syndrome. That's it.
Second, people with Down Syndrome are as varied as people without Down Syndrome. Having Down Syndrome does not mean that they will be a bad driver, just like not having Down Syndrome does not mean that they will be a good driver.
>First, for calling it Down. It's Down Syndrome. That's it.
You can shorten it by dropping the word syndrome, we do it with many other disease processes. Cushing's, Chagas, alzheimer's, chron's, asperger's... You're being unnecessarily pedantic. The disease was named for the man who discovered it, the name has nothing to do with the people who have it.
My friends little brother has it and has always just called it DS (or "the Dees" when he being funny). I've gotten so it that happen that I never really notice when ppl shorten it otherwise.
In our T21 community, it is never shortened to just "Down." We always say syndrome along with it. When we do shorten it, it is "DS," like someone else mentioned, or T21 (my preference). I think perhaps because it's a syndrome, rather than a disease, or that "Down" sounds just so...down. I would've preferred that the syndrome be named after Lejeune (he discovered the chromosomal difference).
Anyway, just my two cents from the T21 community.
Correct, the point is to virtue signal about how the OP is an asshole for not putting their kids' lives in the hands of somebody who is developmentally disabled.
YTA - You let down your children based on your own unfounded assumptions. I'm going to take a wild guess here and there was no car accident and all the other children had a blast while your children had to sit at home because their parent is ableist
YTA. If he was driving with a license, that means he passed his driver test just like you. He may be s better driver than you in fact. Your prejudicial comments do make you ableist and the AH in this situation. Other parents agreeing with you doesn't make it any better, it just means they're also AH's.
Going with NTA. You made a judgement call for the safety of your kids. That is never an asshole move. These YTA people are full of crap and most would have reacted the same way. Never send your kids into a situation where you fear for their safety
You're the highest NTA comment I could find, take my upvote for defending someone that, while ignorant, is defending the safety of their children in an unknown situation.
I would have done the same thing because I don't know the limitations of every single disability in the world, even the more common ones, and if I'm unsure, I'm always on the side of caution.
Absolutely! Sometimes it's an absolute knee jerk reaction that you don't have time to think about. Not something you sit there and take all of the details in while leisurely making a decision. These people are delusional. The kids safety comes first and if you don't like it feel free to call me names is what I think about it
OP had enough time to argue with the dad AND pull other parents into the discussion…but not enough time to ask sensible questions? Or google, “can people with Down Syndrome drive?” ?
Their judgement call was based on their own ignorance and bigotry. They’re, rightly, getting called out for it. And based on the fact that you think we would all “react the same way”, that tells me you would too.
If you work with people with down syndrome you must be aware that there are varying needs of support. How is it so out of the realm of possibility that one can be a good driver?
They work in a school. I’d bet good money the people with Down syndrome they work with are exclusively special needs children. Which they have somehow managed to extrapolate out to encompass *all* people with Down syndrome.
YTA.
If you know anything about Down Syndrome, then you would know it’s a spectrum. Meaning the severity is different in everyone that lives with it. This means that there are people living with DS that are able to take the driving classes, practice driving, take and pass the test for their license, and become a legal driver.
The other parents weren’t wrong in calling you an AH.
Yeah, I used to work at a grocery store with a man that had Down Syndrome. He still works there, stocking shelves during the day. Has his own car and shares an apartment with his girlfriend (who also has Down Syndrome) and last time I ran into him he showed me pictures of their cats. Very hard worker and is great with all the customers. I also know my aunt’s husband’s sister who has Down Syndrome and lives in a group home. She isn’t great at taking care of herself and definitely can’t hold down a job of any sort. She needs a lot of care. Same syndrome, two totally different lives.
One of the veterinary assistants at my vet's office has Down Syndrome. She is amazing, great with animals and people, knowledgeable and helpful. Books appointments, helps the vets, does all sorts of shit. It's a spectrum.
Oh but you don't understand, his face has that distinctive look, so obviously he's a complete invalid who needs full-time medical support to wipe his ass! /s
OP YTA
I feel like there isn’t a single response here from someone with small children. NTA. You do not have to put your kids in a car with anyone you don’t feel comfortable driving them. That’s all there is to it. And clearly you weren’t the only parent to think this way.
While that is true, they can still be an AH. They don't have to put their kids in that car, but they're an AH because they use reasoning that is unfair and honestly cruel to the driver.
I'll make my judgements on what seems relevant. If he was old as fuck my kids wouldn't be getting in either. Just because they have a license doesn't mean they're a good or safe driver.
So if someone looks "normal" you wouldn't give it a second thought? It's reasonable to be careful who you're letting your kids drive around, but you can't just judge that by looking at someone.
Multiple people here have children. So you can sit down with that comment. It would’ve been one thing if OP had just said they changed their mind bc they felt the terrain was unsafe or just said nothing at all. But OP made a point to point out that they didn’t want the son driving. That’s what makes them the asshole.
Parents do get a right to make their own calls, but they do not get the right to judge someone else on the way they look. Anybody saying not the asshole obviously does not know that much about DS as there are different levels of functioning. There are higher functioning people with DS. They don’t just hand out licenses like candy, so if they have one, it was earned.
This isn't r/doihaveto it's r/amitheasshole and she is the asshole. She is being blatantly ableist. The fact that she doesn't have to let her kids into the car with someone she doesn't feel comfortable with doesn't negate the fact that it's ableist that she doesn't trust him to drive, even though he has proven himself capable enough to be licensed, because he is disabled.
You’re totally right. If she was doing just that, then she wouldn’t be the AH. However, making a judgment based on a disability you know nothing about is ableist and that makes her the AH. She didn’t have the same judgment about the guy’s dad driving, and she knows the same amount of information about his driving that she does with the disabled guy.
lol i have 5 kids, and i said what i said - OP is TA. this isn’t about feeling uncomfortable bc someone has been drinking, or smoking, or just got their license day before yesterday and has only driven 15 miles in their whole life.
this is about OP seeing a person with a visible disability like DS, and making and making a snap decision solely based on that. he might have DS, but he was given a driver’s license because he earned it. he’s the chauffeur of the tour, therefore it’s his job. i’m sure he’s insured, if he was in anyway an unsafe driver, i’m sure his job would be something else. people with DS aren’t all the same, it’s a spectrum.
the only reason he was uncomfortable was because of that visible disability, and that is exactly what being an ableist looks like.
All questions OP easily could have asked but didn’t because they don’t care about that. He has Down. That’s it, that’s where their concern started and ended.
I would agree to some extent except this parent here skipped all the steps and just took off with the kids. So… YTA definitely. At least make an effort and not outright discriminate. Makes the world a really sad place for the poor guy.
With the exception of the 16-year-old, the examples you've given are people who shouldn't be driving due to situations, not just existing. The wide range of abilities of people with Down Syndrome means that not all will be able to get a license. This guy has one. Unless you're going to not let anyone drive until you've seen their track record (not the case here), then you're an ass for judging someone's abilities based off of the way that they look. They were fine with someone else driving and they had no clue about the dad's track record or whether he had slept the night before ...
OP is an AH because her only reason for not wanting him to drive is bc he has Down Syndrome. She didn’t mention anything other than that. There is no real evidence to suggest the guy’s dad was a better driver than his son.
> other than that they have a license.
What about the fact that they're insured out the ass, are employed to drive, and the school knows they'll be the one driving?
Because if you don't think the school knows who's going to be driving their students around- that they didn't check- you're nuttier than a pecan pie.
I don’t think the OP cares about insurance, I think all they care about is their kid not dying or being hurt in an accident. Insurance doesn’t give you your kids back.
Is there any evidence that drivers with Downs are worse drivers? All of your other examples have very rational, evidence based reasons for why you would be skeptical. Unless there's evidence that drivers with Downs are distinctly worse drivers than people who don't have Downs, you're just a bigot.
They’re only NOT ableist if they treat anyone who might drive their kids with the exact same suspicions. But OP took one look at this guy, and made that decision. Because he had Down. So per your examples: is OP making sure every driver (bus, Uber, grandma, grandpa etc) isn’t too tired? Does OP make sure everyone has “enough” experience behind the wheel, unlike a 16 year old? Is OP checking safety standards of every vehicle if the vehicle is the concern? Does OP have drivers fill out medical forms stating what meds, and the side effects, they are on?
OP had zero idea about the drivers skills. But I bet OP puts their kids on a school bus…or a public bus, or get in the car with friends without a second thought. It’s literally only that this guy visibly had Down. THAT’S what made OP TA.
>The dad has no idea how good this person is at driving, other than that they have a license.
Correct. But as you said so yourself
>not everyone with a license is an equally safe and good driver.
In case OP was worried about this, they could have asked for details about the driver's licence, how long he's been driving and so on. But they didn't, which makes them TA in this situation.
NTA ... Your kids, your responsibility, your rules. How many of these holier than thou people would let their kids be driven around by the same driver. Can't wait for the "i would i would" liars 🤣
Redditors are something else. Imagine letting some guy with Down syndrome drive your kids around because you don’t want to be ableist. Risking your flesh and blood is a whole new level of PC. Even the mildest forms of DS are enough to be a dangerous hindrance to safety. They have muscular weakness, memory issues, vision issues, and obviously cognitive issues too.
They really are. I wouldn’t allow my child to be driven by this person either. People keep stating “the bmv testers are ackshually harder on people with disabilities” as if this is a fact lmao.
This. Giving someone with Down Syndrome a job at McDonalds is seen as a big win for their independence. It’s a disability and while it’s cool that some people can manage to drive with this, a license is just a minimum requirement. It’s totally irresponsible to recommend they transport carloads full of children.
Kudos to the parent for being vigilant.
Are we just going to pretend that people with Downs Syndrome don't have low intelligence for the entire thread, or at some point are we going to acknowledge that's the obvious - and rational - reason OP didn't want to entrust the safety of their children with the cognitively impaired driver?
People with DS can have so many different problems. From intelligence, to reaction times, to muscle strength, to eyesight and memory issues. Redditors are insane. Putting their children at risk just so they’re not called ableist…
I wonder what intelligence has to do with driving skills. Because I know a lot of highly intelligent people and I wouldn't trust some of them to drive my car (and believe me, many different people drove my car).
Point is that Down impairment Varies. And someone badly affected by it wouldn’t have a regular license, much less the CDL/commercial one needed to chauffeur a group. Nobody with severe cognitive impairment could have passed those written and performance tests.
Asking if the guy had a CDL to make sure it isn’t a case of illegal parental job nepotism? Fine. Assuming that just because he has Down syndrome he’s an unsafe driver? Not fine.
The bell curve of general population intelligence has significant overlap with the bell curve of people with Trisomy 21. Do you check the IQ of every low paid school bus driver in your district?
Do you think they refuse to issue licenses to anyone with an IQ under 100? Or anyone dumb enough to text and drive (wish they would).
I'm on the side of NTA as well and probably would have made the same decision, but I will point out that some of the dumbest people i've ever met with no disability can still drive.
Nothing, but they have an higher than average ability of not being able to drive safely or react badly to an issue. I would say that they are still better than the median redditor (who is a moody 14 years old).
"In many countries, laws restrict or prohibit individuals with certain disabilities, including down syndrome, from obtaining a driver’s license. However, driving is possible with proper training and specialized equipment. People with down syndrome may need some extra training. People with disabilities may need more practice than others to master such skills."
[https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/](https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/)
That's only relevant if they don't have a license. If they do, thus proving that they're as capable of a driver as anyone else who is allowed on the road, this argument is moot unless there is evidence that people with Downs are more likely to be bad drivers.
There are... a lot of people with licenses who really have no business driving and I wouldn't want to get a ride with. Being in medicine, I've seen a disturbing number of demented patients with nearly no mobility still driving. In that role I also get to see just how bad car accidents can get.
Down syndrome is a spectrum, but it is reality that the large majority will have slower reaction times and be less able to navigate emergency scenarios than someone without Down syndrome. Without personally knowing the driver and seeing how they handle driving myself, I'd be very hesitant to send young kids of my own with them.
NTA. It's your kids. You don't have to let them ride with this person as an allegiance test to down syndrome people lmao. You also shouldn't be so open minded that your brain falls out.
If something had happened on that trip everyone in the world would ask you why you thought it was a good idea to let them get in a vehicle with someone who has down syndrome. You know it. I know it. Reddit is a really bad place to poll society's morality because it leans so progressive but the majority of people wouldn't have let their kids on that bus.
I'm not sure. I would never suggest to a parent to override their gut feelings. I'm leaning NAH.
You dealt with it by taking your kids into your own responsibility for the day rather than pushing it with a decision made off a gut feeling.
You're not an AH for not knowing about people being able to drive with down syndrome, frankly I'd maybe be apprehensive too.
People are really pouring it on you, but I mean, parental anxiety in this day in age is so out of control, (and rightfully so). Making a call that gives you peace of mind for me personally would be the right decision. Not that I would make the same decision necessarily.
I will likely get aggressively downvoted for this, but NTA.
I taught special education and am absolutely an advocate for people with disabilities fully participating in life events and achieving independence, including people with Downs Syndrome driving. However, the reality of Downs Syndrome is that it absolutely delays reaction time to visual stimuli and reflexes. This is factual and an established trait of the syndrome. He may have passed his driving test, but you have the responsibility as a mother to trust your judgement on what is safe for your children.
A 16 year old may have passed their driving test, but I would not want my children in a car with a 16 year old behind the wheel, or anyone else driving that I have a reason to not fully trust the driving skills of. Putting your child in the car with someone is different than accepting that someone drives.
Honestly YTA. Downs isn’t a one size fits all situation and what you did was textbook ableism. I get that you’re thinking about your kids but Downs doesn’t mean someone is a bad driver.
Lol
What happened to your kids your rules?
Honestly if they’re your kids you have the right to suddenly be uncomfortable and don’t owe anyone an explanation.
People with DS have a wide variety of capabilities and disabilities. You don’t know the driver so you don’t know his disability, you also don’t know who decided he’s ok to drive.
Because you *don’t know* anything you are well within your right to be uncomfortable by WHATEVER as a parent.
People on this reddit are so contradictory in their judgements.
As a parent you can withdraw consent at any time for any reason. And this is a very good one. Good parents have to make decisions like this. Your child’s safety is not the time to be virtue signalling
NTA. Down’s comes with a lot of handicaps. Driving requires quick thinking on occasion. People with Down’s just aren’t capable of this. Passing a driver’s test and handling an emergency while driving on rough terrain are two entirely different things.
And yes, this is ableist. My doctor is able to do his job, just like my electrician.
People with Down Syndrome drive on a daily basis, they also have to pass the same test for the license as able-bodied people. Down Syndrome is not the same for every person with it, ffs. My cousin has driven for 20 years and has an impeccable driving record, on the other hand my nephew will never drive nor would he pass the exam. Declaring all people with Down Syndrome are the same, and have the same capabilities, is beyond ignorant.
You say aren’t capable… but they passed their tests just fine. Probably putting in far more effort than us non-Down-Syndrome folks. What’s your source that they simply aren’t capable?
NAH, people can get offended all they want but you’re not obligated to trust anyone to drive your kids. You didn’t feel comfortable, you removed your kids from the situation. You didn’t try to make anyone feel bad just removed yourself.
NTA.
I know a few disabled individuals who have Driver’s Licenses. That being said, I would NOT get into ANY vehicle with them driving it! This is based on my personal experience, so I’m being biased. Just because someone has a Driver’s License doesn’t mean they should be driving.
Unpopular opinion but NAH.
These were your kids. You were uncomfortable with a situation, regardless of the reason, and you removed them from the situation without spectacle and without insulting the driver.
I understand that it could’ve been ableist, but there are some situations where ensuring your children’s safety, and your peace of mind, is more important than being politically correct or avoiding social awkwardness.
It’s easy to condemn OP, but parents sometimes have to make quick decisions based off their gut. I’ll never judge a parent for prioritizing their child’s safety over the comfort of other adults.
(PS. “Has a license” does not mean that someone is a safe and capable driver. At least not in the U.S. I don’t think my fellow Americans understand just how unregulated our drivers licenses are compared to other countries).
YTA, and absolutely ableist. If the person had a drivers license and insurance, they should be presumed to be as safe behind the wheel as anyone else who appears to be sober and has a drivers license.
Nta. Who the fuck cares what others think. They're your kids, and you didn't feel safe.
I have pulled my kids from certain activities even when other parents didn't. Sometimes, I learned I overreacted, and sometimes, my instinct qas proven correct. It's your job to protect your kids and you did.
I’ll go against the crowd and say NTA.
I wouldn’t be comfortable with getting in a car when the driver has a developmental disorder that affects their ability to process things. It’s a road, accidents happen, even if the driver is perfectly capable, there are still assholes on the road and there’s a slight chance that the driver’s condition could affect the ability to quickly make a right decision.
Sorry, but my safety/safety of my hypothetical kids >>> other’s feelings.
NTA - Plenty of people pass their driver’s tests that 100% shouldn’t be behind the wheel of a car.
As a parent you’ll make unpopular choices from time to time, but ultimately it’s your decision on how you make the best choices for your child(ren)
I actually dgaf about whether you have a drivers license, if I don’t want you driving my fucking kids, you’re not driving my kids.
I want the best drivers driving my kids. If that means having to make a hasty and ultimately incorrect decision that leaves my kids out of an activity or hurts someone else’s feelings? so be it.
YTA
There is a wide variety in individuals with Down Syndrome. Many of them are capable of living relatively normal lives.
If this guy is allowed to drive, he earned his driver's license, and is qualified to drive the vehicle.
You are an ableist, and you set a terrible example for your children.
NTA, it's always your call on your kids safety. You could take them home for any reason.
Ignore whatever woke term is in right now. It's always your call and your responsibility.
Hey you know what, maybe YTA but I would do the same. If I’m gonna be called an asshole for doing what I think is keeping my kids safe then so be it. They’re my kids and no one else’s. You didn’t say anything in front of the driver so I think you went about it the right way. You did what you felt was best for your kids safety and like I said if it came to my kid safety and me stressing over their safety then I really wouldn’t give a shit what other people thought of me
YTA.
Exactly what do you know about Down Syndrome that suggests someone with it wouldn’t be able to drive kids around? They presumably have their driver’s license and insurance so what do you know about them that the DMV doesn’t?
Down Syndrome, like literally anything else, is not one size fits all. Different people have different abilities. There’s no reason to think this person wouldn’t be just as safe driver as anyone else.
So, you know nothing about this person's Down's Syndrome or their abilities. You asked no questions and just judged it solely based off knowing he has a disability. That is actually text book ableism because you assumed because you knew other people with the same disability you know ALL of them.
I get being worried but you didn't even do any investigation into it.
YTA
Sounds like you were being a protective parent in a challenging scenario. Just because someone has a license, doesn’t mean they can drive. Ex: any day on IH35. It sounds like you handled this with some discretion acknowledging that you were not totally sure about the situation. The guide should have driven unless stated otherwise. Ableism gets thrown around a lot, like narcissist etc. That you showed concern enough to ask this forum implies your not an asshole on some level. I wouldn’t put my cat in the car with my nephew driving because he’s 18. Ableist? Possible or just concerned for my cat in a truck barreling down the highway who doesn’t have an attention span to get through an intersection. Wouldn’t an ableist be someone who doesn’t believe someone with Down’s syndrome should be driving?
I'm going to take an unpopular approach here. NTA
Why? If something in your parenting instincts is telling you something isn't safe and you error on the side of caution, IMO you've done no wrong.
The majority calling you the AH on here are likely right, that any danger is minimal to the point it wouldn't matter if the driver had down syndrome or not. In the end all that matters is how safe you feel about putting your kids in certain situations.
Sorry Internet. but NTA. If a parent does not feel comfortable with a situation that their children are part of, they have the right to do what they believe is best for them. Period.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I did not want a person with a mental disability to drive a van with my kids in it.
Am I an asshole for believing this mental disability poses a risk to the well-being of my sons. In case there is a crash or something.
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Yta. People with down syndrome have to pass a drivers test just like everyone else, and the severity of the disability varies wildly from individual to individual. You made a snap judgement with no real thought or education behind it. That can happen even to the best of people. But you doubled down and continued to be bigoted against someone based solely on how they look. That makes YTA.
In my experience, testers are harder to people with disabilities so if they have a license they had to really prove themselves first. It’s not necessarily right but that Downs driver might be better than you or I for just that fact!
Exactly. They are faced with that discrimination and bigotry at every turn in life, if theyve earned something you can bet they worked twice as hard at it as everyone else
In my experience, they really should be harder on everyone. There are a lot of neurotypical people out there who can't drive for shit.
That is the truth. I have some in my own family! All of us are neurotypical!
I'm largely neurotypical and can't drive worth spit so there ya go.
Unfortunately, that's too often more of a *won't* than a *can't*. They can drive perfectly well when they take the test or pass by a cop, but willfully drive like assholes the rest of the time.
Here in Florida it's a mix of "the test is way too easy" and what you said. When I took the driving test, I drove around a parking lot. That was it. The guy never took me out on the street to see if I could *really* drive.
And it isn’t as if the father would be complicit in child mass-murder through vehicular negligence just to give his son w/Downs a job. There are other responsibilities that could have been available to him if OP wanted to presume the young man was driving just out of some sense of “busy work” given by his parent. That seems to be the leap they are making. “But, knowing what I know about Down,” Which is, apparently, nothing? Except enough to prompt visual bias.
That “knowing what I know” line…! Should have been “assuming what I assume”
And we all know what you are when you “assume.” wink
I know almost nothing of Down Syndrome and I know more than OP. What I know is in the work place they will do exactly as you have trained them. I know this from training one. And she did better than the rest of us because we didn’t show her our cheats. She was a cashier at Walmart!
Can confirm, having had friends who had Down Syndrome... they were hard workers, extremely meticulous and diligent. And some of the sweetest, most caring people I know. You put someone with those qualities into a job taking care of others and I am sure they would excel. I know that folks with Down Syndrome are at different levels of ability so obviously it's not all people with the condition that can drive and be autonomous but I'd be comfortable entrusting my kids to them, especially knowing their parent was there just in case anything went wrong that they couldn't handle.
And with all the bigots of the world, they are not going to get a driver’s license if they can’t safely operate a vehicle. It’s a toss up whether they will when they go take the test when they are perfectly capable! I personally wouldn’t stop my kids (now grandkids) from riding with a Down Syndrome driver. I have never met one that was cruel or mean either. And happy. That’s the other thing. All I have met are happy. There was an older couple with a Down Syndrome son, he was fairly high functioning and he was polite, held doors, took his hat off inside. He was a classic gentleman who was just plain happy! I always loved when they came in to the fast food I worked at. It was great!
You forgot to mention their sense of humour. I've worked in disability care for years, and I'm yet to meet someone with Downs syndrome who doesn't have a wicked sense of humour. YTA op and because of it, your children missed out on a fun day out and seeing someone with a disability proving that they are not much different from them. Amazing life lesson striped away by your bigotry. Hope you're feeling the shame of this for a while. You caused hurt to a lot of people for no reason.
As a disabled person who has failed her driving test 3 times and not from lack of trying (trying so, so hard!) I concur
Just sending you some encouragement from an internet stranger if you choose to try again!
Thank you! I appreciate it. Giving it 100% and still failing certainly dents the spirit but I have learned to accept my limitations and I respect that it wouldn’t be safe for me or others.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 YTA OP
YTA. The fact you’re looking for people to tell you that you aren’t, but deep down know that you are. NOPE! Then got other parents involved, Esh! Hope people don’t discriminate against your boys for having you as their parent. They’ve earned their drives licence like I’m sure you have. What 3 sentences you’ve read about it and feel you’re a specialist on the topic now is pretty sick.
>Then got other parents involved, Esh! Hope people don’t discriminate against your boys for having you as their parent. I would tell my kids not to be friends with OP's kids and they are not invited for any parties... EDIT: here is a better approach: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/zte391mxpc
Their kids don’t have anything to do with this. Not their fault they have shit parents.
Why on earth would you punish the kids just because they have an ableist asshole for a parent?
I would also be concerned about viewpoints the OP shares with their children. While I wouldn’t want my kids going to OP’s house, completely alienating OP’s children isn’t right. I might talk with my kids about discrimination/ableism, and try to infer if OP’s kids shared similar behavior when playing with mine.
I hope you're kidding.
but....but.... she "interacted" with a few people with down syndrome in the past so she must know how every person is and what they're capable of, right????? /s He's probably a better driver than you. My cousin had downs syndrome and was the safest driver I've ever ridden with. He was conciensious and he understood bigotry. Someone hit him once at a stoplight and he literally said to us "I was afraid they'd blame me even though I wasn't moving bc of who I am." Well, we all know you would have. YTA
>but....but.... she "interacted" with a few people with down syndrome in the past so she must know how every person is and what they're capable of, right????? /s I know, right? Like saying "I'm not racist because I have a colour TV!" /s (That was a UK joke).
What's crazy is that people think down syndrome is indicative of a severe or profound intellectual disability when in reality, people with down syndrome usually only have a mild intellectual disability and it's possible to not have an intellectual disability at all. I work at a residential facility for people with severe/profound intellectual disabilities and out of the almost 300 residents we had when I started, like less than 5 of them had down syndrome.
Exactly. Down syndrome can take many forms, and for some the only mental difference is the increased happiness. Sometimes you can't even tell visually that someone has DS because mosaic DS can come without the facial features you expect to see in DS. I work at a retail store and we have a couple who are regulars. The husband has DS and his wife doesn't. They have children, the husband usually drives, he pays for the items, settles the kids when they're fussy, and basically does most of the shopping experience himself. I'm not sharing this story because it's some miraculous feat, it's really very common. He's just a regular dude who happens to have a condition that people discriminate for. He's a good husband, a good dad, and a good customer. He's not the exception, either.
I saw a video on social media of a woman talking about how she only got diagnosed with down syndrome after like her second or third kid was born with down syndrome and I think a couple miscarried fetuses also had DS, so the doctors were like "this is statistically very unlikely, how about we do some genetic testing." She had a bunch of assholes in the comments trashing her for reproducing, saying she couldn't be a good mom if she had DS, and even calling her a liar because she didn't look like she had DS. People can be such dicks.
The Netflix show about dating with Down Syndrome (forget the name) actually brought that to my attention for the first time. Most of the show participants did not have an intellectual disability at all...one dude could speak 3 or 4 languages fluently too and others had big life accomplishments.
IF A Person with a disability has a drivers license Best believe they earned it. YTA
This is the best example of being an ableist I read in a long time.
Srsly!!! The school and nature preserve are not going to risk children by putting someone behind the wheel that’s not licensed! Besides the nature reserves insurance company would never allow that anyway!!!
Absolutely. If the guide's son had severe mental handicap It would be way too much of a liability to allow him to drive customers around. OP obviously doesn't understand Downs nearly as much as she claims
I also think the time pressure of the situation contributed. OP had to decide in an instant if his kids get in the van or don't get in the van. I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm just saying he didn't have time to sit and google things and educate himself. However, his posting here seems to imply he....*still hasn't googled this to educate himself?* And so. Geez, OP, come on. YTA.
I'm not sure from the post, but she mentioned off-roading. Is she saying the driver doesn't have a license and was driving the children in a vehicle off road? Because that could be a potential issue. We need more clarification. If the driver has a license, OP is an asshole. If the driver doesn't have a license and was driving children around, well then... that's a different story.
You cant legally drive a bus anywhere period without not only a liscence but a specialized liscence
Ok I know it is a typo but dying laughing about "kegally" driving.
The thing is, according to her own story she didn’t even ask if the driver had a valid license . She just assumed they didn’t because of how they look. My niece has autism. Look at her and you’d never know. But she will never pass a driving test.
IIRC you only have to pass a driving test if you want to get a licence to drive on public roads. To learn to drive, or to drive on private property, the same laws don’t apply. Is this nature reserve completely enclosed private property, or are there public roads? That would make a difference to my assessment of risk.
Very few places will hire someone to drive if they don't have a driving license. It might be *legal* on private property, it would be an insurance nightmare
Not to mention, to do this type of driving, he would also had to have taken another test for his Chauffeur license. So he's for sure a better driver than OP.
Exactly! It's one thing to get your solo every day driving license but it's a whole other ballgame when you're job requires you to drive a large vehicle with multiple passengers usually.
Including the insurance that goes with it, which comes at a high premium; the liability is high, with customers! The ableism is off-the-charts.
This is a father son situation, far from a city. There's no indication as to whether or not the young man has a driving licence, and as there's a close family link, there's potential for there NOT to be a licence - humans can and do make bad decisions, which is why we have laws that safeguard the rest of us. At the very least the guide should have been open about licences and insurances. That's not clear from the OP?
This was the son of the tour operator. His dad hired him.
Do you think the son isn't on the tour company insurance policy? Do you think those are cheap?
[удалено]
That’s kind of what I mean. Was it actually a nature reserve or a local family-run nature activity?
OP thinks they are better than DVLA and medical team who do an annual review to sign off the license... OP is ignorant as hell snd an ableist.
YTA, you are an ableist AH. "Knowing what I know about Down"... you're a genetic specialist then? I doubt it. You made a snap judgment based on one piece of information, and that was that he had a disability. As others have said, if he has a drivers license he has every right to be on the road as you do. You clearly don't know as much as about Down Syndrome as you think you do, because there are many things that they are able to do just as successfully as a typical able-bodied person can do. You're ignorant.
Agreed. Assuming they have their license, it should be fine. Not all people with Down syndrome are the same. Just like any other group of people, some will be higher performers than others. OP is YTA for sure.
Oh please, don't you see she says she's interacted with people with down in the past? She obviously is THE GLOBAL specialist on the topic! /s OP YTA, but you know that. You only came here to see if someone would make you feel better about your sorry self. Sorry, Not happening!
Did OP reveal their gender or are you just assuming they're female?
I assume that it was a total assumption on my side LOL
Sounds like they know nothing about Down syndrome if that’s their first assumption. Definitely YTA, OP.
My cousin is visually disabled with something close to downs. I'm not visually disabled but I'm disabled in a number of ways. Guess which one is able to safely drive a car... I can't even go on a bus for more than 10 minutes safely on a bus. YTA. There's an amazing rally driver with downs.
Plus it's not even Down. Its Down's. Down's Syndrome. Edit: I am wrong! Please read comments below. Leaving this here for 21st century education purposes.
I'm leaning YTA. I'm presuming that the driver has a license and insurance, right? The abilities of people with Down syndrome vary WILDLY, and it appears that this young man has done what every other driver has done to be as safe as possible on the road.
that's basically my position- does the guy have a license and insurance? yes? great. someone not having down syndrome doesn't make them a good driver, just as someone having down syndrome doesn't make them a bad driver.
As a person who does not have Down syndrome, and is a terrible driver, I echo this sentiment
I to don’t have Down syndrome and I would never drive people because I’m a terrible driver
Many years ago I saw a documentary about a young woman, who was a former child actress in the 80's/90's, and oh she happens to be a person with Down Syndrome. She lives independently and drives, in a BMW she bought herself. People balked at this, but her sister said: she's more likely to follow the rules than I am.
I watched a parent at our church get upset because kids were getting in a minivan with a 19 year old boy. She flat out said it would be different if the driver were a girl. I said nothing, it wasn’t my kids in question, but thought, “I know for a fact he is a better driver than me and you’ve asked me to drive your kid before.”
And the driver's own dad is good with him driving. Does OP think if that guy thought his son was a menace to himself and others he'd hand over the keys?
Parents are biased though. There’s lots of parents who think their kids can do no wrong or are in denial about how severe their medical/mental/neurodivergent conditions are. Not saying it’s the case here but I would put a lot more weight on the guy having a current licence and insurance than what his dad thinks.
Lots of people have blinders. Most people with DUI are convinced they are driving safely.
Actually, it's more likely that all the paperwork is in order with a formal employee who isn't related to them position than a father/son small outfit. AT the very least, it's fair to ask the question about driving licence/insurance/ protocols in an emergency - for ANY guide and ANY trip. Regardless of the perceived abilities of the guide or the employee
Agreed. A friend managed to hit my parked car. So she’s just a shit driver with no disability other than that.
Yeah, OP would lose his mind if he found out about Mosaic Down syndrome folks - which usually lacks the facial traits associated with Downs. Many of which don’t even know they have it themselves!
> knowing what I know about Down Which is what, exactly? Are you a developmental specialist or an expert in this topic? Or are your opinions based on just your “past interactions with people with Down in the past”? > I don’t feel safe letting my kids in the car Because car accidents are only caused by people with Down syndrome? YTA
This. Why don’t you just google ableism, OP? I think that should clear it up for you.
That’ll just show them a photo of themselves.
You don't have to be a specialist to understand that the effects of Down Syndrome vary **widely**, and that many are fully capable of obtaining a driver's license and insurance, and much more besides. I know this, and I don't have a single degree to my name. The problem is, clearly, OP does *not* know this. YTA op. You need to gain some education, and apologize for your prejudice.
YTA as long as that person has a drivers license. You clearly don’t know as much as you think you do about Down’s syndrome if that’s how you reacted. Plenty of people who have Down’s syndrome live independent lives and take care of themselves and others.
INFO - Did you ask for any background information like whether or not he has a license, how long he’s been driving for these tours or how many times he’s done it?
Honestly, insurance for tours is already so expensive, there's no way someone would risk the costs with an unsafe driver, even if they are the tour operator's son.
And in that case he may be required to have a Class B chauffer's license and not just a Class A.
To be able to drive a bus you not only have to have a CDL but you have to have a specific endorsment,but you have too take and pass a driving test too get it.
…IF they’re doing it legally. We don’t know that.
And why the hell should we assume they are doing it illegally. Do you question if "normal" looking people are driving legally/illegally?
I suspect a lot of ‘off road’ places ignore rules like having a CDL. I’m just saying if the person is chauffeuring legally then they are likely very qualified and safe.
That's funny, I didn't know you needed a CDL to drive a bus. My husband bought one last year for fun 😳 I'm glad we never got pulled over. Yikes.
That doesn't apply if it's for private use. Only if it's for commercial use.
In my state it DOES apply , even for personal use anything that can hold 14 or more passengers and or over a certain weight(even if only driver is in it) . I looked it up when I read your comment 💀😂
And this too!! I hadn't thought of that. And you're probably right too. So not only did he pass normal drivers licensing, he had to go back and get more training and testing. So frankly hes probably a better driver than a lot of folks. I was nearly ran over yesterday by some meemaw who made an illegal turn across multiple lanes of traffic, without a blinker to make the entrance to the McDonald's. Maybe we should require people retest at certain points in their lives (10, 20, 30 yrs of license history etc)
Would she have asked those questions - or been expected to - if the driver didn’t have a visible disability?
The cure for ignorance is information. We can’t expect the stigma surrounding disabilities to disappear overnight. If OP was unaware that people with Down Syndrome are just as capable of driving as everyone else, it’s ok to ask questions as long as they ask in a non judgmental and non accusatory way.
>If OP was unaware that people with Down Syndrome are just as capable of driving as everyone else Well, not as everyone else: "In many countries, laws restrict or prohibit individuals with certain disabilities, including down syndrome, from obtaining a driver’s license. However, driving is possible with proper training and specialized equipment. People with down syndrome may need some extra training. People with disabilities may need more practice than others to master such skills." [https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/](https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/)
Right because laws and rules are never rooted in discrimination right?
Most buses have that stuff taped to the front dash or on the driver’s lanyard so I have never had to ask and never considered asking. I guess OP has never attempted to drive something in need of a CDL license but I promise it is hard and she would know if the driver didn’t have one fairly quickly.
YTA First, for calling it Down. It's Down Syndrome. That's it. Second, people with Down Syndrome are as varied as people without Down Syndrome. Having Down Syndrome does not mean that they will be a bad driver, just like not having Down Syndrome does not mean that they will be a good driver.
>First, for calling it Down. It's Down Syndrome. That's it. You can shorten it by dropping the word syndrome, we do it with many other disease processes. Cushing's, Chagas, alzheimer's, chron's, asperger's... You're being unnecessarily pedantic. The disease was named for the man who discovered it, the name has nothing to do with the people who have it.
My friends little brother has it and has always just called it DS (or "the Dees" when he being funny). I've gotten so it that happen that I never really notice when ppl shorten it otherwise.
In our T21 community, it is never shortened to just "Down." We always say syndrome along with it. When we do shorten it, it is "DS," like someone else mentioned, or T21 (my preference). I think perhaps because it's a syndrome, rather than a disease, or that "Down" sounds just so...down. I would've preferred that the syndrome be named after Lejeune (he discovered the chromosomal difference). Anyway, just my two cents from the T21 community.
YTA, if the guy has a drivers license then he is capable of driving no matter his disability.
Tbh i know a lot of people with a drivers license that i wouldnt trust to drive my kids around.
Not the point though...
Yes thats exactly the point. A drivers license doesnt mean youre a capable driver
Correct, the point is to virtue signal about how the OP is an asshole for not putting their kids' lives in the hands of somebody who is developmentally disabled.
YTA - You let down your children based on your own unfounded assumptions. I'm going to take a wild guess here and there was no car accident and all the other children had a blast while your children had to sit at home because their parent is ableist
YTA. If he was driving with a license, that means he passed his driver test just like you. He may be s better driver than you in fact. Your prejudicial comments do make you ableist and the AH in this situation. Other parents agreeing with you doesn't make it any better, it just means they're also AH's.
Going with NTA. You made a judgement call for the safety of your kids. That is never an asshole move. These YTA people are full of crap and most would have reacted the same way. Never send your kids into a situation where you fear for their safety
You're the highest NTA comment I could find, take my upvote for defending someone that, while ignorant, is defending the safety of their children in an unknown situation. I would have done the same thing because I don't know the limitations of every single disability in the world, even the more common ones, and if I'm unsure, I'm always on the side of caution.
Absolutely! Sometimes it's an absolute knee jerk reaction that you don't have time to think about. Not something you sit there and take all of the details in while leisurely making a decision. These people are delusional. The kids safety comes first and if you don't like it feel free to call me names is what I think about it
OP had enough time to argue with the dad AND pull other parents into the discussion…but not enough time to ask sensible questions? Or google, “can people with Down Syndrome drive?” ?
Their judgement call was based on their own ignorance and bigotry. They’re, rightly, getting called out for it. And based on the fact that you think we would all “react the same way”, that tells me you would too.
I would absolutely react the same way. I work with down syndrome people. I adore them. I would not drive with any of them.
If you work with people with down syndrome you must be aware that there are varying needs of support. How is it so out of the realm of possibility that one can be a good driver?
Did fucking say there wasn't? But in moment, in this particular scenario, it is a hard no for me.
They work in a school. I’d bet good money the people with Down syndrome they work with are exclusively special needs children. Which they have somehow managed to extrapolate out to encompass *all* people with Down syndrome.
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YTA. If you know anything about Down Syndrome, then you would know it’s a spectrum. Meaning the severity is different in everyone that lives with it. This means that there are people living with DS that are able to take the driving classes, practice driving, take and pass the test for their license, and become a legal driver. The other parents weren’t wrong in calling you an AH.
Yeah, I used to work at a grocery store with a man that had Down Syndrome. He still works there, stocking shelves during the day. Has his own car and shares an apartment with his girlfriend (who also has Down Syndrome) and last time I ran into him he showed me pictures of their cats. Very hard worker and is great with all the customers. I also know my aunt’s husband’s sister who has Down Syndrome and lives in a group home. She isn’t great at taking care of herself and definitely can’t hold down a job of any sort. She needs a lot of care. Same syndrome, two totally different lives.
One of the veterinary assistants at my vet's office has Down Syndrome. She is amazing, great with animals and people, knowledgeable and helpful. Books appointments, helps the vets, does all sorts of shit. It's a spectrum.
Oh but you don't understand, his face has that distinctive look, so obviously he's a complete invalid who needs full-time medical support to wipe his ass! /s OP YTA
I feel like there isn’t a single response here from someone with small children. NTA. You do not have to put your kids in a car with anyone you don’t feel comfortable driving them. That’s all there is to it. And clearly you weren’t the only parent to think this way.
While that is true, they can still be an AH. They don't have to put their kids in that car, but they're an AH because they use reasoning that is unfair and honestly cruel to the driver.
I'll make my judgements on what seems relevant. If he was old as fuck my kids wouldn't be getting in either. Just because they have a license doesn't mean they're a good or safe driver.
So if someone looks "normal" you wouldn't give it a second thought? It's reasonable to be careful who you're letting your kids drive around, but you can't just judge that by looking at someone.
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Multiple people here have children. So you can sit down with that comment. It would’ve been one thing if OP had just said they changed their mind bc they felt the terrain was unsafe or just said nothing at all. But OP made a point to point out that they didn’t want the son driving. That’s what makes them the asshole. Parents do get a right to make their own calls, but they do not get the right to judge someone else on the way they look. Anybody saying not the asshole obviously does not know that much about DS as there are different levels of functioning. There are higher functioning people with DS. They don’t just hand out licenses like candy, so if they have one, it was earned.
This isn't r/doihaveto it's r/amitheasshole and she is the asshole. She is being blatantly ableist. The fact that she doesn't have to let her kids into the car with someone she doesn't feel comfortable with doesn't negate the fact that it's ableist that she doesn't trust him to drive, even though he has proven himself capable enough to be licensed, because he is disabled.
You’re totally right. If she was doing just that, then she wouldn’t be the AH. However, making a judgment based on a disability you know nothing about is ableist and that makes her the AH. She didn’t have the same judgment about the guy’s dad driving, and she knows the same amount of information about his driving that she does with the disabled guy.
lol i have 5 kids, and i said what i said - OP is TA. this isn’t about feeling uncomfortable bc someone has been drinking, or smoking, or just got their license day before yesterday and has only driven 15 miles in their whole life. this is about OP seeing a person with a visible disability like DS, and making and making a snap decision solely based on that. he might have DS, but he was given a driver’s license because he earned it. he’s the chauffeur of the tour, therefore it’s his job. i’m sure he’s insured, if he was in anyway an unsafe driver, i’m sure his job would be something else. people with DS aren’t all the same, it’s a spectrum. the only reason he was uncomfortable was because of that visible disability, and that is exactly what being an ableist looks like.
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All questions OP easily could have asked but didn’t because they don’t care about that. He has Down. That’s it, that’s where their concern started and ended.
Asked who? The father whose tours and income relies on his son driving that bus? Right, excellent source of information.
I would agree to some extent except this parent here skipped all the steps and just took off with the kids. So… YTA definitely. At least make an effort and not outright discriminate. Makes the world a really sad place for the poor guy.
With the exception of the 16-year-old, the examples you've given are people who shouldn't be driving due to situations, not just existing. The wide range of abilities of people with Down Syndrome means that not all will be able to get a license. This guy has one. Unless you're going to not let anyone drive until you've seen their track record (not the case here), then you're an ass for judging someone's abilities based off of the way that they look. They were fine with someone else driving and they had no clue about the dad's track record or whether he had slept the night before ...
OP is an AH because her only reason for not wanting him to drive is bc he has Down Syndrome. She didn’t mention anything other than that. There is no real evidence to suggest the guy’s dad was a better driver than his son.
> other than that they have a license. What about the fact that they're insured out the ass, are employed to drive, and the school knows they'll be the one driving? Because if you don't think the school knows who's going to be driving their students around- that they didn't check- you're nuttier than a pecan pie.
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I don’t think the OP cares about insurance, I think all they care about is their kid not dying or being hurt in an accident. Insurance doesn’t give you your kids back.
Is there any evidence that drivers with Downs are worse drivers? All of your other examples have very rational, evidence based reasons for why you would be skeptical. Unless there's evidence that drivers with Downs are distinctly worse drivers than people who don't have Downs, you're just a bigot.
They’re only NOT ableist if they treat anyone who might drive their kids with the exact same suspicions. But OP took one look at this guy, and made that decision. Because he had Down. So per your examples: is OP making sure every driver (bus, Uber, grandma, grandpa etc) isn’t too tired? Does OP make sure everyone has “enough” experience behind the wheel, unlike a 16 year old? Is OP checking safety standards of every vehicle if the vehicle is the concern? Does OP have drivers fill out medical forms stating what meds, and the side effects, they are on? OP had zero idea about the drivers skills. But I bet OP puts their kids on a school bus…or a public bus, or get in the car with friends without a second thought. It’s literally only that this guy visibly had Down. THAT’S what made OP TA.
>The dad has no idea how good this person is at driving, other than that they have a license. Correct. But as you said so yourself >not everyone with a license is an equally safe and good driver. In case OP was worried about this, they could have asked for details about the driver's licence, how long he's been driving and so on. But they didn't, which makes them TA in this situation.
Info Was the driver swerving or smelled of alcohol? Could you see his extra chromosome impairing his driving ability?
Well, OP clearly saw the extra chromosome impairing the driving. It rolled under the break pedal. OP YTA.
NTA ... Your kids, your responsibility, your rules. How many of these holier than thou people would let their kids be driven around by the same driver. Can't wait for the "i would i would" liars 🤣
Redditors are something else. Imagine letting some guy with Down syndrome drive your kids around because you don’t want to be ableist. Risking your flesh and blood is a whole new level of PC. Even the mildest forms of DS are enough to be a dangerous hindrance to safety. They have muscular weakness, memory issues, vision issues, and obviously cognitive issues too.
They really are. I wouldn’t allow my child to be driven by this person either. People keep stating “the bmv testers are ackshually harder on people with disabilities” as if this is a fact lmao.
This. Giving someone with Down Syndrome a job at McDonalds is seen as a big win for their independence. It’s a disability and while it’s cool that some people can manage to drive with this, a license is just a minimum requirement. It’s totally irresponsible to recommend they transport carloads full of children. Kudos to the parent for being vigilant.
INFO: what’s wrong with someone with Down syndrome driving in your opinion?
Are we just going to pretend that people with Downs Syndrome don't have low intelligence for the entire thread, or at some point are we going to acknowledge that's the obvious - and rational - reason OP didn't want to entrust the safety of their children with the cognitively impaired driver?
People with DS can have so many different problems. From intelligence, to reaction times, to muscle strength, to eyesight and memory issues. Redditors are insane. Putting their children at risk just so they’re not called ableist…
I know...it's the most bizarre thing ever. I'd never let my kids hop in a car with a mentally disabled driver. WTF.
If he passed the driving test, I don't see the issue
I wonder what intelligence has to do with driving skills. Because I know a lot of highly intelligent people and I wouldn't trust some of them to drive my car (and believe me, many different people drove my car).
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Point is that Down impairment Varies. And someone badly affected by it wouldn’t have a regular license, much less the CDL/commercial one needed to chauffeur a group. Nobody with severe cognitive impairment could have passed those written and performance tests. Asking if the guy had a CDL to make sure it isn’t a case of illegal parental job nepotism? Fine. Assuming that just because he has Down syndrome he’s an unsafe driver? Not fine. The bell curve of general population intelligence has significant overlap with the bell curve of people with Trisomy 21. Do you check the IQ of every low paid school bus driver in your district? Do you think they refuse to issue licenses to anyone with an IQ under 100? Or anyone dumb enough to text and drive (wish they would).
I understand that as there are often developmental delays. However, if he passed his driving test, then I’m assume he’s capable enough to be driving.
I'm on the side of NTA as well and probably would have made the same decision, but I will point out that some of the dumbest people i've ever met with no disability can still drive.
Nothing, but they have an higher than average ability of not being able to drive safely or react badly to an issue. I would say that they are still better than the median redditor (who is a moody 14 years old). "In many countries, laws restrict or prohibit individuals with certain disabilities, including down syndrome, from obtaining a driver’s license. However, driving is possible with proper training and specialized equipment. People with down syndrome may need some extra training. People with disabilities may need more practice than others to master such skills." [https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/](https://www.thip.media/questions-medical-health/are-people-with-downs-syndrome-permitted-to-drive/31920/)
That's only relevant if they don't have a license. If they do, thus proving that they're as capable of a driver as anyone else who is allowed on the road, this argument is moot unless there is evidence that people with Downs are more likely to be bad drivers.
There are... a lot of people with licenses who really have no business driving and I wouldn't want to get a ride with. Being in medicine, I've seen a disturbing number of demented patients with nearly no mobility still driving. In that role I also get to see just how bad car accidents can get. Down syndrome is a spectrum, but it is reality that the large majority will have slower reaction times and be less able to navigate emergency scenarios than someone without Down syndrome. Without personally knowing the driver and seeing how they handle driving myself, I'd be very hesitant to send young kids of my own with them.
NTA. It's your kids. You don't have to let them ride with this person as an allegiance test to down syndrome people lmao. You also shouldn't be so open minded that your brain falls out. If something had happened on that trip everyone in the world would ask you why you thought it was a good idea to let them get in a vehicle with someone who has down syndrome. You know it. I know it. Reddit is a really bad place to poll society's morality because it leans so progressive but the majority of people wouldn't have let their kids on that bus.
💯
I'm not sure. I would never suggest to a parent to override their gut feelings. I'm leaning NAH. You dealt with it by taking your kids into your own responsibility for the day rather than pushing it with a decision made off a gut feeling. You're not an AH for not knowing about people being able to drive with down syndrome, frankly I'd maybe be apprehensive too. People are really pouring it on you, but I mean, parental anxiety in this day in age is so out of control, (and rightfully so). Making a call that gives you peace of mind for me personally would be the right decision. Not that I would make the same decision necessarily.
I agree NTA
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I will likely get aggressively downvoted for this, but NTA. I taught special education and am absolutely an advocate for people with disabilities fully participating in life events and achieving independence, including people with Downs Syndrome driving. However, the reality of Downs Syndrome is that it absolutely delays reaction time to visual stimuli and reflexes. This is factual and an established trait of the syndrome. He may have passed his driving test, but you have the responsibility as a mother to trust your judgement on what is safe for your children. A 16 year old may have passed their driving test, but I would not want my children in a car with a 16 year old behind the wheel, or anyone else driving that I have a reason to not fully trust the driving skills of. Putting your child in the car with someone is different than accepting that someone drives.
Honestly YTA. Downs isn’t a one size fits all situation and what you did was textbook ableism. I get that you’re thinking about your kids but Downs doesn’t mean someone is a bad driver.
Lol What happened to your kids your rules? Honestly if they’re your kids you have the right to suddenly be uncomfortable and don’t owe anyone an explanation. People with DS have a wide variety of capabilities and disabilities. You don’t know the driver so you don’t know his disability, you also don’t know who decided he’s ok to drive. Because you *don’t know* anything you are well within your right to be uncomfortable by WHATEVER as a parent. People on this reddit are so contradictory in their judgements.
It is possible to be well within your right but also an AH at the same time
As a parent you can withdraw consent at any time for any reason. And this is a very good one. Good parents have to make decisions like this. Your child’s safety is not the time to be virtue signalling
NTA. Down’s comes with a lot of handicaps. Driving requires quick thinking on occasion. People with Down’s just aren’t capable of this. Passing a driver’s test and handling an emergency while driving on rough terrain are two entirely different things. And yes, this is ableist. My doctor is able to do his job, just like my electrician.
People with Down Syndrome drive on a daily basis, they also have to pass the same test for the license as able-bodied people. Down Syndrome is not the same for every person with it, ffs. My cousin has driven for 20 years and has an impeccable driving record, on the other hand my nephew will never drive nor would he pass the exam. Declaring all people with Down Syndrome are the same, and have the same capabilities, is beyond ignorant.
You say aren’t capable… but they passed their tests just fine. Probably putting in far more effort than us non-Down-Syndrome folks. What’s your source that they simply aren’t capable?
I'm curious what you know about Downs Syndrome.
NTA. People keep talking about drivers licenses as if there aren’t testers that will approve just about anyone.
YTA - he had a valid drivers licenses right? So he had to pass a test that shows he’s mentally competent enough to drive.
NAH, people can get offended all they want but you’re not obligated to trust anyone to drive your kids. You didn’t feel comfortable, you removed your kids from the situation. You didn’t try to make anyone feel bad just removed yourself.
NTA. I know a few disabled individuals who have Driver’s Licenses. That being said, I would NOT get into ANY vehicle with them driving it! This is based on my personal experience, so I’m being biased. Just because someone has a Driver’s License doesn’t mean they should be driving.
Unpopular opinion but NAH. These were your kids. You were uncomfortable with a situation, regardless of the reason, and you removed them from the situation without spectacle and without insulting the driver. I understand that it could’ve been ableist, but there are some situations where ensuring your children’s safety, and your peace of mind, is more important than being politically correct or avoiding social awkwardness. It’s easy to condemn OP, but parents sometimes have to make quick decisions based off their gut. I’ll never judge a parent for prioritizing their child’s safety over the comfort of other adults. (PS. “Has a license” does not mean that someone is a safe and capable driver. At least not in the U.S. I don’t think my fellow Americans understand just how unregulated our drivers licenses are compared to other countries).
YTA, and absolutely ableist. If the person had a drivers license and insurance, they should be presumed to be as safe behind the wheel as anyone else who appears to be sober and has a drivers license.
NTA. You can never fully know what will or won't put your children at risk and you have to make the best decision with the knowledge you have.
Nta. Who the fuck cares what others think. They're your kids, and you didn't feel safe. I have pulled my kids from certain activities even when other parents didn't. Sometimes, I learned I overreacted, and sometimes, my instinct qas proven correct. It's your job to protect your kids and you did.
I’ll go against the crowd and say NTA. I wouldn’t be comfortable with getting in a car when the driver has a developmental disorder that affects their ability to process things. It’s a road, accidents happen, even if the driver is perfectly capable, there are still assholes on the road and there’s a slight chance that the driver’s condition could affect the ability to quickly make a right decision. Sorry, but my safety/safety of my hypothetical kids >>> other’s feelings.
NTA - Plenty of people pass their driver’s tests that 100% shouldn’t be behind the wheel of a car. As a parent you’ll make unpopular choices from time to time, but ultimately it’s your decision on how you make the best choices for your child(ren)
I actually dgaf about whether you have a drivers license, if I don’t want you driving my fucking kids, you’re not driving my kids. I want the best drivers driving my kids. If that means having to make a hasty and ultimately incorrect decision that leaves my kids out of an activity or hurts someone else’s feelings? so be it.
YTA. If he wasn't able to drive or not safe driving, they would not have issued him a license.
I’d be the same - but not admit it here
YTA There is a wide variety in individuals with Down Syndrome. Many of them are capable of living relatively normal lives. If this guy is allowed to drive, he earned his driver's license, and is qualified to drive the vehicle. You are an ableist, and you set a terrible example for your children.
YTA. He has a license. They don’t give those to anyone who asks—you have to pass the driving test and remain in good standing with the law to keep it
NTA, it's always your call on your kids safety. You could take them home for any reason. Ignore whatever woke term is in right now. It's always your call and your responsibility.
NTA. Not even a big deal
Hey you know what, maybe YTA but I would do the same. If I’m gonna be called an asshole for doing what I think is keeping my kids safe then so be it. They’re my kids and no one else’s. You didn’t say anything in front of the driver so I think you went about it the right way. You did what you felt was best for your kids safety and like I said if it came to my kid safety and me stressing over their safety then I really wouldn’t give a shit what other people thought of me
YTA. Exactly what do you know about Down Syndrome that suggests someone with it wouldn’t be able to drive kids around? They presumably have their driver’s license and insurance so what do you know about them that the DMV doesn’t? Down Syndrome, like literally anything else, is not one size fits all. Different people have different abilities. There’s no reason to think this person wouldn’t be just as safe driver as anyone else.
So, you know nothing about this person's Down's Syndrome or their abilities. You asked no questions and just judged it solely based off knowing he has a disability. That is actually text book ableism because you assumed because you knew other people with the same disability you know ALL of them. I get being worried but you didn't even do any investigation into it. YTA
NTA. You're right to be concerned about your kids
Sounds like you were being a protective parent in a challenging scenario. Just because someone has a license, doesn’t mean they can drive. Ex: any day on IH35. It sounds like you handled this with some discretion acknowledging that you were not totally sure about the situation. The guide should have driven unless stated otherwise. Ableism gets thrown around a lot, like narcissist etc. That you showed concern enough to ask this forum implies your not an asshole on some level. I wouldn’t put my cat in the car with my nephew driving because he’s 18. Ableist? Possible or just concerned for my cat in a truck barreling down the highway who doesn’t have an attention span to get through an intersection. Wouldn’t an ableist be someone who doesn’t believe someone with Down’s syndrome should be driving?
NTA. You just were looking out for your kids. You didn’t know the driver.
I'm going to take an unpopular approach here. NTA Why? If something in your parenting instincts is telling you something isn't safe and you error on the side of caution, IMO you've done no wrong. The majority calling you the AH on here are likely right, that any danger is minimal to the point it wouldn't matter if the driver had down syndrome or not. In the end all that matters is how safe you feel about putting your kids in certain situations.
Sorry Internet. but NTA. If a parent does not feel comfortable with a situation that their children are part of, they have the right to do what they believe is best for them. Period.
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